Hellbat's Role in PvT & The Hellbat/Zealot Dynamic - Page 2
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
You claim your zealots didnt land a single hit because they died before they could attack, against an army that consisted of mainly hellbats and vikings. Vikings dont do much, so hellbats it is. Have you by any chance checked their range? There is no way they would kill zealots before they could attack. If he wanted to do that he would have been better of with hellions in normal mode. Why you would possibly warp in waves of zealots against an army mainly compromised of the unit specifically designed to counter zealots is also a mystery for me. Then he cant have alot of vikings and alot of ground. If he has many vikings, focus on immortals and archons, they will devastate a mech army. If he has few vikings, you can also consider tech switching to carriers (with some tempests). They cost effectively kill pretty much everything in a mech army, including vikings. Blink stalkers also absolutely rape mech. If he has mainly vikings and hellbats you should just kill him with the stalkers. If he has many siege tanks you shouldnt complain your immortals cost gas. But still then blink stalkers rape mech. No not in a straight up fight, but you can just walk past his army and kill all his expansions. Toss always said that terran shouldnt complain about toss deathball a-moving terran bioball, since bio was more mobile. Well guess what, the difference between random toss army and mech army is alot larger. Get something like 15-20 blink stalkers, go harass the terran. What is he going to do about it? A few siege tanks in strategic locations really wont stop that, they just die. So they need to use many siege tanks for base defense. And the quick reaction force of mech player? It consists of vikings and hellions. They arent exactly the ideal counter to stalkers. Luckily in WOL my experience is that most toss just keep warping in zealots for harrasment, which I approve. TL;DR, you are stuck in a mindset which requires you to warp in zealots. Consider stalkers, and switch production to immortals/archons in time. | ||
Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On November 27 2012 23:34 JackReacher wrote: Stalkers don't scale well enough to be viable lategame PvT, and tanks beat them BADLY. HT gets outranged by tanks, meaning his tank position determines where you can and cannot be, and thus where you can and can't defend. Archons, as explained in OP, are too cost-inefficient by themselves, and Immortals are too buildtime inefficient. Only these 2 units dont melt to new mech. You are only thinking in one direction, head on fight. How does bio beat mech in TvT? How does Zerg (without BL) beat mech ? The answer is good play. Attack where he is not, attack when he is unsieged, mass expand and overwhelm him, etc. Your large post can be reduced to this: mech works as intended, at least against you. Now you have to learn how to play in other ways then just relying on a superior army like you do against bio. Also, didn't DB say Hellbats are about to be buffed? lol | ||
pmp10
3136 Posts
On November 27 2012 23:55 Sapphire.lux wrote: Also, didn't DB say Hellbats are about to be buffed? lol I think all he said is that they may look into the unit. There were some suggestions to make it impossible to transform back into hellion. It certainly has a serious issue right now being restricted to one unit counter. | ||
iknowFiRE
Slovenia37 Posts
what happens in hots however, zerg and toss got new counters to mech, biggest ones viper for cloud and tempests. if you play exactly like in wol without using new hots units, i could see how mech could totaly own now, but its not the case ofcourse. ive been watching lots of morrow stream for example where he tried to mech and the ultimate counter was mass tempest, they simply killed anything and forced mass vikings, which are very bad vs storm. as zerg, well, if cloud is good against anything its tanks, disable them and its a walkover, but clearly they still must put emphasis on infestors, they are simply the best unit, except vs mech they cant stand alone anymore. | ||
DestinationLiquid
Belgium30 Posts
On November 27 2012 23:48 Sissors wrote: Why you would possibly warp in waves of zealots against an army mainly compromised of the unit specifically designed to counter zealots is also a mystery for me. Toss mentality, I assume. If a moved zealots don't do it, do more a moved zealots. I am actually really surprised that such a thread even exists, cause in semi high level (masters/gm) I and many terrans get crushed by the Tempest High Templar deathball, which is very hard to engage both with bio and mech. So instead of focusing our attention on how to fix tempest+ht, we are discussing why zealot is not winning vs hellbat ? (by the way, i still think zealot collos high templar is way stronger than mech) I think shifting our attention from apparent problems to deal with non existent ones was the reason why Zerg is that overpowered today in WOL: cause the balance designers did not consider the balance problems calmly and instead listened to the most vocal part of the community which were the Zergs. And then you had infestor brood lord. We should not let threads like that exist, because, next thing you know, zealots will start hitting from 2 range, so our friend in the OP can 'land a hit' with them against the hellbats. | ||
Taefox
1533 Posts
Stalkers don't scale well enough to be viable lategame PvT, and tanks beat them BADLY. HT gets outranged by tanks, meaning his tank position determines where you can and cannot be, and thus where you can and can't defend. Archons, as explained in OP, are too cost-inefficient by themselves, and Immortals are too buildtime inefficient. Only these 2 units dont melt to new mech. This statement and i've just realized OP want an AMove armies which can walk into Mech sieged tanks line and crush them . We got hellbats for terran in HotS, so do you Zergs and Protoss. People still see that mech doesn't really work correctly in TvP HotS atm cuz of countered units. So why can't you find it out ? Be creative edit: No offense but i think maybe u always play with the mindset that A Move Charglot Archons HTs crush mech into piece like they do in WoL, then hellbats appear and you can't do the same thing like before. | ||
RoyMadman
United States18 Posts
Unfortunatley the standard protoss one army for everything compostions wont work as well any more, | ||
Arco
United States2090 Posts
It's true that Zealots get eaten alive by Battle Hellions, but they're only there to soak damage for your Immortals, Archons, and High Templar. Yes, even your Immortals. I know Hardened Shell is a great passive against Siege Tanks, but realistically they're filling more of the role of the Protoss Dragoon from SC1 versus Mech. Their job is to deal the damage. You can't win a fight against a huge mech army fast enough to rely on Hardened Shells. Once those Hardened Shells are down they're just as much cannon fodder versus Siege Fire as Stalkers are. So this is what you do. Once your Zealots have evaporated, it's wise to pull back your Archons and Immortals and wait for another warp in. At this point most of his Hellions are probably dead from soaking damage for the tanks. This is where Chargelots shine. Since you just reproduced a whole bunch, you can go in for a second attack if the fight went as well as I've said. Otherwise, you can use an Observer to float over his army and wait for him to unsiege and go home. Often times you can catch him off guard returning home and get a very favorable engagement. Mech can be tricky to deal with, but once you learn how to play versus it, it's not so bad. Sometimes it can look completely overpowered if you made some mistakes, and it won't even be close. Other times when you're playing to your best abilities you'll make it look like a joke. Good luck. | ||
Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
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DestinationLiquid
Belgium30 Posts
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Please upload a replay of the game you use as a large part of your argument. I 100% guarantee I will be able to find what went wrong for you, or what you could have done to win from that position. A Hellbat/Tank/Viking/Thor/Widow Mine army is not impossible to beat or impossible to engage, not even close. HT and Tempest are both viable options as well, at least when used together. If you don't understand how to make that composition work, people have explained it very clearly in this thread. It's absurd for you to say there was a "delicate balance" in WoL Mech vs P. The match-up was very clearly imbalanced in Protoss' favor. If there is a Mech army you are struggling against as P when you have a better economy and upgrades, I would be happy to show you in the unit tester how to beat it. | ||
gDubS91
United States22 Posts
On November 28 2012 01:34 DestinationLiquid wrote: Are we seriously asking ourselves how to beat mech and not how to deal with the High Templar Tempest deathball? Tempest has so much health that it takes so much time to kill one with thors or vikings, it's not even funny. Besides, your vikings have to move all the time from storms, so the micro is on the terran to do, as always. But yeah, a move toss compositions just got slightly weaker and now tosses are having problems... I think you nailed it. | ||
Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 28 2012 02:25 Skyro wrote: There is no way to have any meaningful discussion unless the OP uploads the replay he is talking about. The truth has been spoken. Without a replay, this is all theory. | ||
guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On November 27 2012 23:34 JackReacher wrote: Stalkers don't scale well enough to be viable lategame PvT, and tanks beat them BADLY. HT gets outranged by tanks, meaning his tank position determines where you can and cannot be, and thus where you can and can't defend. Archons, as explained in OP, are too cost-inefficient by themselves, and Immortals are too buildtime inefficient. Only these 2 units dont melt to new mech. Stalkers are awesome vs mech, they are super mobile and as soon as you get blink they are viable lategame in non-pvp matchups, maybe now even in pvp vs tempests if they start to become standard, but that's not important, what matters is that stalkers are awesome. Between storm, blink, maybe a couple canons for zoning, you can easily defend carriers and tempests from vikings. carriers even defend pretty well themselves due to range, and if he has too many vikings, than 22 warpgates of blink stalkers will let you find some hole in his ground army. That's how the supply limit thing and limited resources work. A fun trick is to use carriers to bust down missile turret defenses and warp in 10+ zealots directly onto their production and just suicide zealots then start trading when he can't produce and you have instant reinforcements you could even throw in a couple of oracles. Their are tons of options against mech as toss, air, gateway and robo armies are all perfectly viable in WoL and you can do funky things that just aren't good against bio, like making carriers because Terran could punish you too hard, some units probably shouldn't be as good as they are now. Even as a toss player I feel like past the 15 min mark in pvt my armies are far too a-movey, the only things i really have to control are templar who half the time are out of range anyways because A. I'm terrible and B. they are slow as fuck, I might have to control some blink stalkers too. I want to have more ability to influence the fight damnit! Carriers and blink stalkers should be able to stop tanks from moving forward, stalkers in particular can punish any moving mech armies. But really, you should post a replay. | ||
spbelky
United States623 Posts
The fact is, mech should be about space control, but the Tank and Widow Mine are absolute trash against Zerg and Protoss unit compositions, not to mention Broodlords are much better siege units than anything in the Terran arsenal, and winfestors and even (sadly) Swarm Hosts aren't bad options either. Colossus/Tempest/Carrier are all viable Sieging units for Protoss. It's just silly that Terran has the worst space control units in the game lol. We're forced to run around with paper(or glass) cannons (aka BIO) in matchups and hope that our weak units can match up to the powerhouse units of Protoss and Zerg's lategame. I'm sorry but Hellbats are bad against anything but zerglings. | ||
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