Hellbat's Role in PvT & The Hellbat/Zealot Dynamic - Page 3
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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Lesrah
Portugal110 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10145 Posts
Now remember that his tanks aren't all in one spot, they take space. The hellions will surely (at least some of them) be in front by a couple hexes, so you can definitely get some storms off. If his hellbats are behind... then it's easier for your army/zealots to get there. if/when push does come to shove, that they should stand somewhat more of a fighting chance So you mean that this mech army, which is supposed to be strong in a straight up fight but forced to defend due to immobility, should actually have a good chance of losing to a Protoss army "when push comes to shove" AKA the terran is winning? It's hard enough to push with a mech army, due to leap frogging. Yes, mech armies are very strong and get stronger the later the game due to MULEs + adding more supply efficient units (thors, BCs instead of just viking hellion tank ghost), but if you're leapfrogging and 1/4 of your tanks aren't sieged up, and you move in that small window, the difference is quite big. Also highly disagree with the hellbats stopping chargelots so hard. You must be engaging wrong if the rest of your army is way behind your zealots. Time it so that zealots engage at the same time. Hellbats only have range 2, and zealots do not die to tanks. There's no way they can all be killed (if you have a reasonable amount) before being able to attack. Hellbats themselves are like 1 hex in space, they can only get a shot off before the zealot starts attacking. It's not like a ball of marines vs zerglings. | ||
Glockateer
United States254 Posts
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On November 27 2012 22:50 DestinationLiquid wrote: Immortal based armies would help you tons, so will a couple high templars. You can't expect things to work like in WOL, where you a move your 3/3 zealot archon and win. Try attacking from multiple corners, hiding sneaky templars, dt's in bases, etc, harrass. Basically, do stuff that terrans had to do for 2 years to beat or be on equal footing to an a moving toss. Edit: I am unsure of your league, but PvT is currently dominated by toss with the almost unbeatable Tempest high templar deathball. It counters with easy any combination you can throw at it as terran, including mech. I would actually in turn like high templar's cast range to be reduced so vikings can reliably fight off tempest instead of having to dance around taking fire while templar's energy is over. And not to beat a dead horse here, but I find a protoss complaining about the weaker deathball of terran hilarious. This sounds like really bad whining >.< you can use ghosts too you know. I imagine it would be really hard to micro tempests to snipe ghosts, storm spread vikings, AND micro tempests to snipe the tanks that are shooting at high templar (Tempest only have 3 (maybe 2?) range more than a tank... for a high templar not to be in range, that would be some pretty precise army movement.) Also, "do stuff that terrans had to do for 2 years..." lol. I'm not saying that terran was OP or anything, but look at how well Terrans did for those two years (1) and 2, that just isn't right, unless you would like to give examples. Sure MC was successful for a while, but there was a sad zealot fanclub for a reason Terran deathball is "weaker" in WoL, not necessarily HOTS. It's a different deathball. Also, I imagine widow mines at "perimeters" of your army could help with HT. Place the widow mine in front of viking - viking can snipe observers, widow mine snipes high templar that move in to storm vikings. Edit: Not that the game isn't perfect or that HT/tempest or terran mech don't need tweaking, but I don't think that it's as bad as you make it out to be. | ||
DestinationLiquid
Belgium30 Posts
On November 28 2012 04:15 Alryk wrote: .Also, I imagine widow mines at "perimeters" of your army could help with HT. Place the widow mine in front of viking - viking can snipe observers, widow mine snipes high templar that move in to storm vikings.. I want to say something, but I have no words. I don't know what game or league you are playing, but widow mines with 5 range sniping high templars when obs has 11 range, that is just so confusing to me, I am speechless. | ||
spbelky
United States623 Posts
On November 28 2012 04:15 Alryk wrote: This sounds like really bad whining >.< you can use ghosts too you know. I imagine it would be really hard to micro tempests to snipe ghosts, storm spread vikings, AND micro tempests to snipe the tanks that are shooting at high templar (Tempest only have 3 (maybe 2?) range more than a tank... for a high templar not to be in range, that would be some pretty precise army movement.) Also, "do stuff that terrans had to do for 2 years..." lol. I'm not saying that terran was OP or anything, but look at how well Terrans did for those two years (1) and 2, that just isn't right, unless you would like to give examples. Sure MC was successful for a while, but there was a sad zealot fanclub for a reason Terran deathball is "weaker" in WoL, not necessarily HOTS. It's a different deathball. Also, I imagine widow mines at "perimeters" of your army could help with HT. Place the widow mine in front of viking - viking can snipe observers, widow mine snipes high templar that move in to storm vikings. Edit: Not that the game isn't perfect or that HT/tempest or terran mech don't need tweaking, but I don't think that it's as bad as you make it out to be. The Tempest simply sit at 15 range and pick apart at your army, if you try and engage with your 11 range vikings, they get stormed before they can even get a volley off. Similar to the Infestor, the Protoss will be happy to trade HT energy for viking kills all game long. + Show Spoiler + | ||
SamsLiST
Germany184 Posts
random wall of text with a sad story about a lost a-move scenario in it. 2/10 | ||
Hider
Denmark9236 Posts
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SamsLiST
Germany184 Posts
we should be thankful | ||
sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
But A for effort. | ||
DestinationLiquid
Belgium30 Posts
On November 28 2012 05:40 SamsLiST wrote: this kind of Protoss players are keeping the illusion of mech beeing viable in wol/hots alive we should be thankful This kind of players are also the 'pros' Blizz sometimes listen to. Like Naniwa for toss or Idra for the Zerg, they are willing to blame their inadequate play to a strategy not being viable, while in fact, if a more skiled player uses the gateway army, he would destroy mech with almost no problem. We should not give such posts or players any credit, because that is how we came up with BroodLord+Infestor, the siegequeen range, the rocket overlord, and the 20 sec observer build time, at a time when terrans were already struggling vs less mechanically skilled zergs and tosses. Now we are at a point when I am happy if there is a terran at a tournament so I am not stuck up with endless PvZs. TL;DR The op is a wall of text disguising (badly) the op's frustration that a moved zealot armies don't work (in the hands of the OP) against mech. Such posts are dangerous to the community as they may align a bunch of low skilled level players who think the problem the OP describes is real, while in fact many people will tell you that in higher leagues mech is still very hard to execute at all. And sure, hellbats might be ok against zealots (I don't think so, but ok, let's say it is so). Toss has so much more mobility and raw punching strength that to be whining about hellbats is pure hypocricy. | ||
NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
Battlehellions are supposed to be good vs zealots.... That's their sole purpose in the game... | ||
SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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StateofReverie
United States633 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
They are fantastic against lings, because of the relative strength (2 shot + way more hp) to the ling. But they are at best passable against zeals. I've tried out hellion + bio compositions with ghost+viking, and the reality is that they get stomped by gateway+templar+colo. The bio can no longer kite, and the hellions are not efficient enough (even with 20+) to clear zeals faster than the AOE of protoss can clear all of the T army. The reality is that hellions are just a passable buffer for zeals. Without the rest of mech being viable, and providing the majority of the firepower+AOE, hellions won't be viable against P as a complement to bio. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20718 Posts
I don't see much difference in mech TvP in this respect. This is theorycrafting from a HoTS virgin, so excuse me if I get the basic flow wrong, or if timings don't allow what I'm talking about. T goes for some mech comp. Protoss goes super heavy immortal composition with blink to circumvent and flank. The Terran may incorporate ghosts to EMP the immortals, only for Templars/Templars tempest to arrive. The latter stage is apparently reminiscent of Inf/BL in how it's untouchable, albeit that it is harder to reach. How counter-compositions actually work, now with animated creatures! I also love people making out that Protoss players want to be able to macro and A-move Zealots as if it's our deepest desire. Or that, beyond some neat charge manual casting and some army splitting that you CAN micro chargelots properly. I'd rather have Zealots be faster, (let's say that it's roughly a compromise between charge and passive speed), so that more possibilities to properly flank would exist. This isn't a pining to BW units, or anything like that, but a desire to see the match up progress similarly. The main concept that you have to outmanouever mech. and kill before critical mass or at least trade with it effectively is the only real similarity that I can gather from how everyone is describing the matchup, and how I've seen it work out. The difference is in HOTS is how this overarching aim is accomplished. In BW, yes there are units with anti-mech roles, if not designed specifically for it, they performed it well in practice. You could chip away at mech balls in a variety fo different ways, but importantly, having balanced compositions was also important. In SC2, there are units that are clearly designed from the outset to be anti-tank wrecking balls. The idea that pumping TONS of immortals to bust a tank line, then transition to the Templar/Tempest combo that is apparently fearsome against Terran just seems wrong to me, and I'm talking from the Protoss perspective remember. This is distinct from say, how the marine and the baneling coexist. The latter 'counters' the former, but the former can be made to trade much, much better with good splitting. The tank has many hardcounters that it cannot really account for in that kind of fashion. | ||
DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
They really have their work cut out for them. Right now, mine is another gimmick unit, like most of the Terran army, that's only good for like 2-3minutes. | ||
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