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On November 28 2012 00:22 DestinationLiquid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 23:48 Sissors wrote: Why you would possibly warp in waves of zealots against an army mainly compromised of the unit specifically designed to counter zealots is also a mystery for me.
Toss mentality, I assume. If a moved zealots don't do it, do more a moved zealots. I am actually really surprised that such a thread even exists, cause in semi high level (masters/gm) I and many terrans get crushed by the Tempest High Templar deathball, which is very hard to engage both with bio and mech. So instead of focusing our attention on how to fix tempest+ht, we are discussing why zealot is not winning vs hellbat ? (by the way, i still think zealot collos high templar is way stronger than mech) I think shifting our attention from apparent problems to deal with non existent ones was the reason why Zerg is that overpowered today in WOL: cause the balance designers did not consider the balance problems calmly and instead listened to the most vocal part of the community which were the Zergs. And then you had infestor brood lord. We should not let threads like that exist, because, next thing you know, zealots will start hitting from 2 range, so our friend in the OP can 'land a hit' with them against the hellbats. Because A) I was out of gas because of Archon warpins and B) Because it was a tank army with roughly 10 Hellbats, possibly less
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WHAT?! Zealots die from Hellbats?! What madness is this!!!!
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On November 28 2012 16:35 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 00:22 DestinationLiquid wrote:On November 27 2012 23:48 Sissors wrote: Why you would possibly warp in waves of zealots against an army mainly compromised of the unit specifically designed to counter zealots is also a mystery for me.
Toss mentality, I assume. If a moved zealots don't do it, do more a moved zealots. I am actually really surprised that such a thread even exists, cause in semi high level (masters/gm) I and many terrans get crushed by the Tempest High Templar deathball, which is very hard to engage both with bio and mech. So instead of focusing our attention on how to fix tempest+ht, we are discussing why zealot is not winning vs hellbat ? (by the way, i still think zealot collos high templar is way stronger than mech) I think shifting our attention from apparent problems to deal with non existent ones was the reason why Zerg is that overpowered today in WOL: cause the balance designers did not consider the balance problems calmly and instead listened to the most vocal part of the community which were the Zergs. And then you had infestor brood lord. We should not let threads like that exist, because, next thing you know, zealots will start hitting from 2 range, so our friend in the OP can 'land a hit' with them against the hellbats. Because A) I was out of gas because of Archon warpins and B) Because it was a tank army with roughly 10 Hellbats, possibly less No it wasnt. At least you yourself said that the tanks were pretty much gone due to tempest and colossi fire.
But if there were 10 hellbats with a complete tank army behind them, did you ever consider it wasnt the hellbats which killed your zealots, but the entire tank army? Or did you think really no one would take you serious if you complained that zealots werent good enough against tanks?
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On November 28 2012 16:35 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 00:22 DestinationLiquid wrote:On November 27 2012 23:48 Sissors wrote: Why you would possibly warp in waves of zealots against an army mainly compromised of the unit specifically designed to counter zealots is also a mystery for me.
Toss mentality, I assume. If a moved zealots don't do it, do more a moved zealots. I am actually really surprised that such a thread even exists, cause in semi high level (masters/gm) I and many terrans get crushed by the Tempest High Templar deathball, which is very hard to engage both with bio and mech. So instead of focusing our attention on how to fix tempest+ht, we are discussing why zealot is not winning vs hellbat ? (by the way, i still think zealot collos high templar is way stronger than mech) I think shifting our attention from apparent problems to deal with non existent ones was the reason why Zerg is that overpowered today in WOL: cause the balance designers did not consider the balance problems calmly and instead listened to the most vocal part of the community which were the Zergs. And then you had infestor brood lord. We should not let threads like that exist, because, next thing you know, zealots will start hitting from 2 range, so our friend in the OP can 'land a hit' with them against the hellbats. Because A) I was out of gas because of Archon warpins and B) Because it was a tank army with roughly 10 Hellbats, possibly less You never mention your league, but I doubt it is higher than gold. Also, you don't provide a replay. Maybe you had 2 archon, 10 zealots and a high templar and tried to storm 20 tanks, 10 hellbats and got evaporated? How can we know if you don't provide a replay. Cause as the whole community repeatedly told you, zealot archon high templar is still perfectly viable against mech and still a lot stronger.
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On November 28 2012 00:22 DestinationLiquid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 23:48 Sissors wrote: Why you would possibly warp in waves of zealots against an army mainly compromised of the unit specifically designed to counter zealots is also a mystery for me.
We should not let threads like that exist, because, next thing you know, zealots will start hitting from 2 range, so our friend in the OP can 'land a hit' with them against the hellbats.
Well spoken. Since hellbats were specifically introduced to combat zealots warping only zealots is against the reason. I suppose that to make game fair zealots should have a chance against battlecruisers as well. What about an late game upgrade to let zealots hit from 2 range but hit also air targets?
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Well, it's not like Protoss needs Zealots anymore at least vs Bio. Just get Oracles, they are much better at what Zealots are supposed to do. Once your Bio army is slowed, you can't get into the deathball range, you can't run away, you can't dodge AoE, your vikings can't get into colossus range. Oracle slow has made bio basically unplayable vs protoss.
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now you know how zerg felt when they built hydras vs collosus.... we've been there buddy, it doesn't get fixed so hold back on the QQ
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Wether you agree with the OP or not: most of the responses here are just QQ on their own - let me paraphrase it a bit:
"ohh I struggle so much vs toss coz I did 1 year nothing but 1/1/1 and suddenly Iose to toss players who just need to 1A vs my perfect 200apm stutter step AND now YOU OP dare to utter so much as an opinion on possible imbalance in HotS" (you may or may not see what I just did there...)
You want to criticize the OP do it, but if u lack any argument apart from: "Ur race OP u bad, l2p..." then PLZ go play LOL with Destiny.
We are in a beta, things are imbalanced, things change. If threads about the playing experience suddenly become a "danger" for the future of sc2 in particular and e sports in general then where's the point of a beta/beta-forum.
ps: just got me thinking: if u feel threatened (i.e. being scared of range 2 zealots which hit air) by a wall of text without as much as a single replay attached, the OP might actually be on to something
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Northern Ireland20706 Posts
On November 29 2012 22:50 tar wrote:Wether you agree with the OP or not: most of the responses here are just QQ on their own - let me paraphrase it a bit: "ohh I struggle so much vs toss coz I did 1 year nothing but 1/1/1 and suddenly Iose to toss players who just need to 1A vs my perfect 200apm stutter step AND now YOU OP dare to utter so much as an opinion on possible imbalance in HotS" (you may or may not see what I just did there...) You want to criticize the OP do it, but if u lack any argument apart from: "Ur race OP u bad, l2p..." then PLZ go play LOL with Destiny. We are in a beta, things are imbalanced, things change. If threads about the playing experience suddenly become a "danger" for the future of sc2 in particular and e sports in general then where's the point of a beta/beta-forum. ps: just got me thinking: if u feel threatened (i.e. being scared of range 2 zealots which hit air) by a wall of text without as much as a single replay attached, the OP might actually be on to something This, this a thousand times. This continuous stream of ad-hominem attacks on people, but also comments like 'TLDR' are fucking killing good discussion on this forum. If you want to debate a topic, or an issue do so based on two things.
1. What the OP actually wrote. If it's actually 100% retarded, tear it apart if you wish, but in a non-aggressive manner. The exception to the 'non-aggressive' part is if the OP himself is aggressive/balance whiny or whatever. 2. Subsequent posts from either the OP and other posters, and what they say.
There is nothing worse in terms of killing threads than people coming in, reading the title, sometimes not even the entire OP, and posting before they've done that. I was having good discussions about the UI changes, thread got closed in the end. It got closed not because the topic was bad, but because it had been MADE bad by people coming in and making absurd claims like.
'You guys want BW, turn off automine' - A point we had raised, and already talked about as NOT being what we were advocating. 'These UI changes don't make you good' - We didn't say they did, at any point in the thread. Etc etc etc
The OP was actually well written, and contained some cool concepts, while being a springboard for other discussion, it did degenerate rather quickly.
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I never liked the "hellbat" concept. It's a massabale, a-click, spray aoe, low tier unit. Siege tank is a good aoe unit, HT is a good AOE unit, mines are good aoe units, banelings are good aoe units. Units like hellbats should just gtfo of the game regardless if balance is achieved or not. Making the same people fix what they did is a bad idea, this design team is killing the game, they are making more errors they are not fixing anything.
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On November 30 2012 03:10 i)awn wrote: I never liked the "hellbat" concept. It's a massabale, a-click, spray aoe, low tier unit. Siege tank is a good aoe unit, HT is a good AOE unit, mines are good aoe units, banelings are good aoe units. Units like hellbats should just gtfo of the game regardless if balance is achieved or not. Making the same people fix what they did is a bad idea, this design team is killing the game, they are making more errors they are not fixing anything. By your logic pretty much any low tier massable a move unit should be removed. Hellbat does what it does, it counters low tier light units. i dont know by what standards you define good and bad units? please elaborate.
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eh, I'd love to see the replay of the game, OP. By the sounds of it you had like half the supply a moving through chokes. If you have "Zealots will never get to melee, even with 125 supply worth and max upgrades, that much is a fact." then it doesnt sound like range 2 hellions are the problem considering charge has a range 4.
So what happens when a Robo unit, such as the Immortal, is the only effective counter to a certain unit composition like HotS mech to the extent that it needs to be the primary unit in the Protoss army to combat the enemy composition, and any other units are superfluous if they are not both small in number and dedicated to a very specific role, i.e. giving your army some form of anti-air?
You could so easily replace 'Immortal' with 'Colossus'.
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On November 28 2012 08:51 DeCoup wrote: Tanks in WoL are terrible vs lings and zealots because of multiple design changes to both the tank and zealot/ling compared to BW implementations of these units. It was a mistake not designing them to destroy tier 1 unit. It interesting that instead of altering the tank they decided to place the foundations for anti tier 1 on another component of the mech composition, especially one which is gas free (once unlocked). I do like this design choice, but I didn't see it coming.
But in BW the counter to zealots was vultures, not so much tanks. BW tanks could do a better job at mowing down zeals due to better damage, but once zeals entered the tank lines the tanks also did more damage to themselves due to overkill.
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I'd like to summarise what the op states with an interminable message: "Oh, fuck! I can't a-move the terran anymore on Hots! Let's open a whine-topic on TL. I am protoss, I require no micro!"
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Well, no protoss really a-moves so i don't understand that line. Obviously it's the same for T.
On topic I think this is pretty fair in the sense that you can get around it with other units and zealot harrass is still very viable. Oracle+Storm can be awesome to get rid of the already slow hellbats and obviously usual bio.
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no, they fake real micro to actually amove.
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On November 30 2012 03:10 i)awn wrote: I never liked the "hellbat" concept. It's a massabale, a-click, spray aoe, low tier unit. Siege tank is a good aoe unit, HT is a good AOE unit, mines are good aoe units, banelings are good aoe units. Units like hellbats should just gtfo of the game regardless if balance is achieved or not. Making the same people fix what they did is a bad idea, this design team is killing the game, they are making more errors they are not fixing anything.
It isn't low tier. You need a Rax --- Factory --- Armory
It's like saying thors are low tier units,
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Northern Ireland20706 Posts
On December 02 2012 21:50 Stilgorn wrote: no, they fake real micro to actually amove. /Protoss don't actually receive as much benefit if they CAN actually micro well.
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There are some serious problems with the hellbat, I just played a game where I lost 40 3-3-0 zealots to 6, yes 6 2-2 hellbats with a couple medivacs, 4 or 5 marines and a ghost. I killed his army and went for the formality kill, then I lolled how my full supply of zealots and sentries lost to 6 hellbats. Still won the game, but this shows serious problems in the hellbats design.
fight @ 21:30
http://drop.sc/282560
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OP is actually a high master league Protoss (in WoL), he's not a complete idiot . And there WERE a significant amount of tanks during the engagement I mentioned, despite a good number being killed. It was a long game with every base on the map taken, the engagements did not all happen one after another.
Before you tear my idea to shreds, please read my entire post; I'm not an idiot and I don't suck at the game, nor am I "Gold league". I may not be a professional, but I have been before at other games of the same genre and I have beaten players on ladder who some of you root for at tournaments all the time, albeit not as often as I lose to them, and I don't just spew balance whine because I lose. I don't mind losing, I prefer a loss (not in a tournament but in ladder) to an easy win, because it makes me better.
My OP was just an articulation of what I noticed, and perceive as an excessively drastic counter to chargelots, which happen to be Protoss' only true mineral sink in the entire game (save for immobile photon cannons). In a long game, where cost-effectiveness matters and it's about attrition, this has the potential to break the game.
To all the smartasses saying "oh no, the Hellbat beats Zealots, how terrible!", I sincerely hope you either know what I meant and are just a dick or you only read 10% of my post. Of course I have NO problem with Hellbats being a counter to Zealots, that's the point. The point is that they are too hard a counter, such that I can't even think of a comparison that currently exists in Wings of Liberty other than saying that upgraded Hellbats counter Zealots in the same way that Hellions counter Drones. They annihilate them, utterly, in an outstanding display of cost-efficiency. Furthermore, the units that Protoss has available to counter Hellbats are hard countered by the units that support the Hellbats. Generally, a softer counter system is preferable.
The basic counter dynamic, known to some as "rock paper scissors" is disrupted by the fact that Protoss units' intended cost effectiveness is actually reversed by the superior range advantage held by every one of their respective Terran counter units; Seige Tanks should counter Stalkers and Immortals and Hellbats should counter Zealots. Obviously, Seige Tank outrange Stalkers, and Hellbats outrange Zealots by default because Zealots are melee units. This means that Terran armies deal the first blow. This is extremely important the larger battles are and the more powerful the armies involved are; if two people are fighting, a first punch isn't nearly as critical as a first shot is in the case of two people dueling armed with shotguns, to put it in a rather strange way.
The high damage (of both armies involved) means the army with the range disadvantage, Protoss, takes damage before it is able to deal it. Units are killed before they deal damage. The army may be at 75% or even 50% health before it lands a shot. This essentially amounts to a massive health nerf, if you will. Protoss' credo is said to be "strong but expensive units". This implies that while they cost more, they are strong enough that they are equal in cost effectiveness. The issue is that now, the Protoss army is actually WEAKER and MORE expensive, so the longer the game goes, the more desperate the situation becomes. The map mining out is gg if you can never engage the enemy army.
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