PvT - 3gate blink stalker + mothership core - Page 2
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
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Stunergy
United States41 Posts
edit: and to think about, hasnt the meta game for toss been about playing defensive all game till they can "a" move your army? Now that toss can be aggressive early game, everyone QQ's about it? | ||
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:15 Stunergy wrote: I don't get what the big deal about Blink all-ins? Every match up has its form of all-ins...and most all-ins are designed to be hard to hold. Every race, P and T have MANY TOOLS than can use to defend against blink stalker MSC core all ins. I open up Blink MS core against protoss on "good blink" maps, and I would say that the photo cannon on the nexus and good unit positioning prevents blink stalker from being "too" effective. Yes if you snipe your opp. MSC than unless they got immortals its gg for them. And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings. If terrans are so scared of the openings, maybe scan the main of the protoss? Cant tell you how many games on the ladder I've played where a terran would've held it off if he just used one scan. (Too know its coming). Openings 1 gate robo in pvp shuts down blink stalker play, and Oracles win games if you have your stalkers and msc going across map when his oracle pops in your mineral line (say good bye to all your probes). Dt rushes pop out as soon as my blink finishes, so 1 dt for defense and another at my base wins him the game. They are many many options players can do to hold off Blink stalker play. Yes and therefor we see so many allins by Terrans and barely any Blink allin from Protoss.. Yes? You can't possibly rely on scan. You won't see everything all the time. So you can't act like you are safe while you of course are not. What if anything is proxied? You just wasted Mule to make sure, you are safe, while you are not.. Well, gg, next time I try to hit my scan maybe a little bit to the left? "And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings." You know, that is not a bad feeling to open with Blink Stalkers against Terran ho takes early gas. You know what? It's basically impossible to hold Blink allin with 1rax FE, so I guess all opening are covered now with Blink Stalkers. :D | ||
Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:22 Everlong wrote: Yes and therefor we see so many allins by Terrans and barely any Blink allin from Protoss.. Yes? You can't possibly rely on scan. You won't see everything all the time. So you can't act like you are safe while you of course are not. What if anything is proxied? You just wasted Mule to make sure, you are safe, while you are not.. Well, gg, next time I try to hit my scan maybe a little bit to the left? "And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings." You know, that is not a bad feeling to open with Blink Stalkers against Terran ho takes early gas. You know what? It's basically impossible to hold Blink allin with 1rax FE, so I guess all opening are covered now with Blink Stalkers. :D Hellions and widow mines do wonders to a player who is saving gas and minerals to tech to a quick blink. I've lost games against T who open for a quick widow mine play, they spread their widow mines out. Once my MSC core has ran out of energy (after about 2 envisions) my stalkers cant kill the terran quick enough to win the game before the widow mines, and marines handle my stalkers. Do I agree with you that Blink stalkers are good early game? YES. Do I agree that they are overpowering...NO. Each race has so many more options now early and mid game, that Crying about the beta (when the meta game isnt even figured out) is utterly pointless. Now maybe I'm being arrogant, because I dont know the build timings for other players, but my build hits at 7:30 with 9 blink stalkers, and my msc core will have almost 100 energy when it arrives. So if others are hitting hard and faster than mine...than I could see it being "strong" if not a little overpowered. | ||
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. | ||
Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls? | ||
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
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Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:43 Bagi wrote: You just said marines handle your stalkers. Your words, not mine. I said marines and widow mines. My words. Your words "marines handle blink stalkers?" | ||
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:42 Stunergy wrote: Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls? Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered.. | ||
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:50 Everlong wrote: Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered.. Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc. Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem. | ||
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. The exact same argument holds for PvP, yet blizzard makes these kind of mistakes all the time... Sometimes I wonder what David Kim and co. actually think when they make certain changes.. | ||
Mattumsfox
United States233 Posts
On December 18 2012 08:03 Stunergy wrote: Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc. Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem. Lol not gonna break this down but I love the last sentence. A single viking to snipe the msc..... You must have the worst micro in the game. If a single viking can kill your msc when you are only making blink stalkers then it makes sense that you think this allin is balanced. | ||
Stunergy
United States41 Posts
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stormchaser
Canada1009 Posts
On December 18 2012 06:53 Hider wrote: Too lazy to find it, but you can search on the battlenet forums on the username Rock and find his most recent posts. Yeah I saw this post from DB as well. | ||
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 18 2012 08:03 Stunergy wrote: Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc. Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem. Not to be blunt but seeing it being held off at a lower level really doesn't mean much... The arguments you provide are quite frankly extremely naïve. Bunkers are awful against this, making bunkers preemptively IS awful because it delays your other stuff, you'll never win a base race against this (hello recall!) and making a viking to stop this is borderline silly.. MsC has huge sight range and blink stalkers happen to be pretty good against vikings.. Sure this can be stopped but it requires quite a bit of blind specific defense which is not good for the game. Timings like these should not be so strong that games are completely focussed around the mere possibility of them happening. Opening without marauders and stopping this if it comes is practically impossible, you might not lose on the spot but protoss can get a free advantage way too easily. Note that doing this is completely risk free for protoss because blink and council are part of the standard tech you want anyway... | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:06 Markwerf wrote: This tactic is too good and ruining two matchups in HotS at the moment, PvT but also PvP. Terran can stop this with bio though they often still take damage but this opening or variants of it a big reason mech is a complete joke. Terran can't really scout this coming easily and this attack can just as well come with 5 gates on 2 bases. Widow mines are supposed to useful for stopping attacks like this but the MsC also happens to a super awesome detector while those same stalkers conviently outrange mines.. If you rely on widow mines to stop this you just spend 50 energy and kill those mines for free.. Even if you were uncareful and blinked on top of the widow mines you end up trading 1 stalker per widow mine which isn't such a blowout.. In PvP this tactic is so good that I feel you should never do something else.. DT? No problem, msc provides detection FE? blink stalker harass hopping between the bases and you lose, cannon from msc can only prevent one base afterall.. Robo? sure, blink stalker just expands earlier and can still try all sorts of harass. Robo feels pointless in PvP anyway since the colossus transition is easily stopped with tempests now. The ultimate composition seems to be just chargelot/archon, if they go colossi you respond with tempests, if they go air you respond with some stalkers... Stargate? Blink stalkers are pretty good against that. I honestly think oracle play shuts down this blink stalker pressure. Ironically, if the blink player tries to put pressure on, they lose; oracle player can run in, kill all the defenseless probes, and then just defend with gateway units + purify back at home. Ironically, if you try to account for this, you miss a timing window against the 1-gate MsC expands into robo and end up really far behind. I honestly think that, although protoss players haven't fully explored this yet, blink stalkers are kind of a dead opening in PvP because of the oracle changes. | ||
Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 18 2012 09:07 Markwerf wrote: Not to be blunt but seeing it being held off at a lower level really doesn't mean much... The arguments you provide are quite frankly extremely naïve. Bunkers are awful against this, making bunkers preemptively IS awful because it delays your other stuff, you'll never win a base race against this (hello recall!) and making a viking to stop this is borderline silly.. MsC has huge sight range and blink stalkers happen to be pretty good against vikings.. Sure this can be stopped but it requires quite a bit of blind specific defense which is not good for the game. Timings like these should not be so strong that games are completely focussed around the mere possibility of them happening. Opening without marauders and stopping this if it comes is practically impossible, you might not lose on the spot but protoss can get a free advantage way too easily. Note that doing this is completely risk free for protoss because blink and council are part of the standard tech you want anyway... Thank you Markwerf for having valid information instead of just flaming my arguements to the post. I do agree with everything you say except that it is "risk" free. Sure recall on the mothership does take away most of the risk, but it still requires good timing, and control for the protoss player to be effective. I agree match ups should'nt be built around timings but hasnt wol meta game for PVT been revolved around the stim/medivac push at 9:30? And lots of PVZ strategies revolve around holding off some sort of lair tech aggression around the 11-13 min mark? I think its impossible to remove all these "timings" from standard play. I never said its not a very strong all in as some people are claiming I have, I am stating that it is hold able, and nerfing blink isnt the problem. I think the mothership core is the problem behind this, because it is the whole reason why this build doesn't come with much risk (recall) and the fact the follow up of a darkshrine is very strong due to the low cost of the structure now. | ||
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