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Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus. So you need to double tap your Nexus hotkey (assuming you have one) to jump to your Nexus, and THEN hit your MsC hotkey, tap R, and click on the Nexus. This means that WHILE YOU ARE RECALLING, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE YOUR ARMY. So when you initiate the recall, you need to right click move all of your units to the MsC, and while you are recalling you need to hope that they're all within range. Now think of how fast Banelings and Stimmed bio balls kill things and you'll realize how small the margin for error is. If you whiff your MsC hotkey.. well, now you're staring at your Nexus while your army is on move command getting torn to shreds half way across the map... Additionally, if you group your Nexus hotkeys together, then you'll just be taken to a random Nexus and not the one you want. So guess what, in order to actually teleport where you want, you need to keep a different hotkey for each Nexus or cycle through them with the space bar like Zerg (or set up location hotkeys for each Nexus location... which even at Diamond level most people don't do). All these things add to the skill requirement and expose your units to danger while you're looking away.
Also people complaining about the MsC's DPS... are you kidding me? A single Queen or Stalker easily holds off a MsC. It takes like 5 shots to kill a Zergling, and 7 to kill workers. The weapon is barely enough to keep it from dying to 1-2 marines... chill folks.
As someone said before... the MsC allows Protoss just a little ability to roam the map in the early game without being too committal. This means that instead of turtling up to 3 bases and moving out with deathballs like in WoL (which everyone complained about) Protoss can now be active around the map like the other races. Why is this suddenly an issue?
Also, let me remind you of the high cost of activating the MsC's abilities. Recall costs 100. If you recall back to base to fight a ling counterattack or whatever, you don't necessarily have enough to cast Purify on your Nexus.
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Less greedy = open stim and concussive every game just in case of a blink stalker rush? I just want to play mech and explore new playstyles in the beta, yet I cannot because of the huge commitments I'm forced to make just in case the 1 base protoss went blink stalkers. Do note that there are other one-base pushes too, proxy immortals/VRs/colossi might be heading your way too.
Also please stop saying that we should scout with scans, there's a reason tech-revealing scans are called "lucky". Scanning the nat might be an option if the toss is really good at denying worker scouts, but rarely necessary.
FWIW I'm high masters playing GMs regularly.
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On December 19 2012 03:52 Bagi wrote: Less greedy = open stim and concussive every game just in case of a blink stalker rush? I just want to play mech and explore new playstyles in the beta, yet I cannot because of the huge commitments I'm forced to make just in case the 1 base protoss went blink stalkers. Do note that there are other one-base pushes too, proxy immortals/VRs/colossi might be heading your way too.
Also please stop saying that we should scout with scans, there's a reason tech-revealing scans are called "lucky". Scanning the nat might be an option if the toss is really good at denying worker scouts, but rarely necessary.
FWIW I'm high masters playing GMs regularly.
How unfortunate that you need to research stim and combat shields :/ They're such terrible abilities (rollseyes). You can't expect to just make the highest end units and skip out on bio completely... Hell, I want to make a fleet of Carriers and Tempests... it's unfair that I have to research Warpgate.... :/ See how that sounds?
Since you're Masters... imagine playing PvT without knowing if your Terran opponent even has a natural expansion. How LUDICROUS does that sound? Yet somehow you're trying to imply that it's okay for TvP. Terrans have the best 1 base play in the game. By far. It's not even close. Guess what.. when I play vs. Terran, and I don't see a natural expansion. What do I do? It could be anything. It could be a Thor rush, it could be mass Banshees + Vikings + a Raven, it could be Hellion drops, hell.. it could even be a Battlecruiser rush with full SCV pull... As a Protoss I'm forced to make a robo, make an obs, and go scout your base. Say you went Banshees off more than one port... well now I get to BEGIN making a Stargate... But I'm okay with these things. Yes... if you can't do anything else you should sacrifice a scan to check for an expansion. Just like I sometimes have to sac a Zealot to check for the Terran expansion when there's a bunker in the way. It's part of good scouting. Losing to proxy Immortals is silly. You should check the areas outside your base with a worker or something. 33% of my games are PvP.. I've learned to do it. It's not hard.
TLDR Terrans complaining about 1 basing anything = LOLOLOLOLOLOL okay.
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Maybe you should up scrap the condescending tone, you don't see me pointing out how you lack the mechanics to use a simple recall.
Terrans could go 1-1-1 and 1-base every game, but that would set the metagame back 2 years. If you open 1-1-1 as a terran you have to be aggressive, do we really need to kill terran macro builds just to keep blink stalkers alive? You go tell MVP how losing to 1base immortals is silly, he just did in Blizzard cup. Proxy or not.
Carriers and tempests are in no way comparable to mech, mech is designed to be a separate tech path starting from the early game, protoss fleet beacon air is a late game transition like BCs and ravens. Going 3 rax with all the necessary upgrades and then switching to mech will never be effective, you've spent too much and are always better off sticking with bio.
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On December 19 2012 04:10 Bagi wrote: Maybe you should up scrap the condescending tone, you don't see me pointing out how you lack the mechanics to use a simple recall.
Terrans could go 1-1-1 and 1-base every game, but that would set the metagame back 2 years. If you open 1-1-1 as a terran you have to be aggressive, do we really need to kill terran macro builds just to keep blink stalkers alive? You go tell MVP how losing to 1base immortals is silly, he just did in Blizzard cup. Proxy or not.
Carriers and tempests are in no way comparable to mech, mech is designed to be a separate tech path starting from the early game, protoss fleet beacon air is a late game transition like BCs and ravens. Going 3 rax with all the necessary upgrades and then switching to mech will never be effective, you've spent too much and are always better off sticking with bio.
Didn't mean to come off condescending. Sorry.
I do have the mechanics to execute a recall. Some people don't. I was only explaining that there IS a margin for error. It's not a simple "push 1 button and all your units are magically saved" thing - it takes some amount of skill to use effectively. Even pros slip up sometimes and mess up hotkeys.. (TaeJa accidentally lowers his depot vs. Life's 9 pool, etc..)
What makes the game interesting is that there are many different openers available to each race and that they all achieve something different. My point about the 1 Rax expand is that when a Terran does this, he's saying "I eventually want to win with a big army." Nerfing a Blink Stalker all-in simply because it derails that plan wouldn't add to the game.. it would only take away. Some builds force a reaction from the opponent. Like i was saying earlier, a 2 port build forces me to make Phoenix, which I really don't want to otherwise make versus Terran. So if a guy is Blink all-inning you, yeah I guess you have to scrap your plan to go Mech. At the pro level, seeing how fast someone can scout and react to a build is fun. It adds depth to the game. Nerfing every opening until Terrans can blindly go mech every game would be boring. Say you want to go Mech. Now I have to react to your Mech build. So I can't just go Zealot Templar, like I was planning to. But that's just part of the game.
TLDR build variety is what makes the game fun. Having a build that works against everything is boring. Sometimes your build forces a reaction, and sometimes you have to react to someone else's build. It's the same in every sport... if a football defense blitzes every down, then yeah, there will be some plays you can't execute. But there are others that punish that.
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New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit.
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That will be huge. It is the difference between 1 marauder and 4 for the first blink in (using my build, anyway)
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On December 19 2012 03:32 DinoMight wrote: Why is everyone insisting that a 1 Rax FE should be able hold a Blink all-in? The Blink all-in is a build that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to counter 1 Rax FE, and pretty much falls flat on its face if the Terran is a little less greedy. It keeps Terrans honest. I can't tell you how many Terrans I play on the ladder now (high Diamond/low Masters) who DON'T SCOUT AT ALL TvP.
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech?
TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy.
2 rax has to be done blindly. Blink doesn't. Blink can beat many 1 base builds straight up and should remain even with all others. If you spend a scan, everything in your build is late, which means if Protoss was just chronboosting probes, you have a mighty big hole to dig out of. You don't have enough units to delay Protoss third base. Guess who wins 3 base vs 3 base most of the time?
I don't think you appreciate just how expensive scans are or how far they put you behind. You lose the "midgame advantage" that Terran has.
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On December 19 2012 08:19 madals wrote: New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit.
Are you kidding? People went apeshit when Protoss upgrades were cheapened by 25/25 on level 3. But 30 seconds later Blink won't make a huge difference.
That is almost a Bunker, that is a full production cycle. That will be the end of Blink all ins against good players -.-
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On December 19 2012 18:51 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:19 madals wrote: New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit. Are you kidding? People went apeshit when Protoss upgrades were cheapened by 25/25 on level 3. But 30 seconds later Blink won't make a huge difference. That is almost a Bunker, that is a full production cycle. That will be the end of Blink all ins against good players -.-
And that is good fucking thing.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:49 DinoMight wrote: Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus. So you need to double tap your Nexus hotkey (assuming you have one) to jump to your Nexus, and THEN hit your MsC hotkey, tap R, and click on the Nexus. This means that WHILE YOU ARE RECALLING, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE YOUR ARMY. So when you initiate the recall, you need to right click move all of your units to the MsC, and while you are recalling you need to hope that they're all within range. Now think of how fast Banelings and Stimmed bio balls kill things and you'll realize how small the margin for error is. If you whiff your MsC hotkey.. well, now you're staring at your Nexus while your army is on move command getting torn to shreds half way across the map... Additionally, if you group your Nexus hotkeys together, then you'll just be taken to a random Nexus and not the one you want. So guess what, in order to actually teleport where you want, you need to keep a different hotkey for each Nexus or cycle through them with the space bar like Zerg (or set up location hotkeys for each Nexus location... which even at Diamond level most people don't do). All these things add to the skill requirement and expose your units to danger while you're looking away.
Also people complaining about the MsC's DPS... are you kidding me? A single Queen or Stalker easily holds off a MsC. It takes like 5 shots to kill a Zergling, and 7 to kill workers. The weapon is barely enough to keep it from dying to 1-2 marines... chill folks.
As someone said before... the MsC allows Protoss just a little ability to roam the map in the early game without being too committal. This means that instead of turtling up to 3 bases and moving out with deathballs like in WoL (which everyone complained about) Protoss can now be active around the map like the other races. Why is this suddenly an issue?
Also, let me remind you of the high cost of activating the MsC's abilities. Recall costs 100. If you recall back to base to fight a ling counterattack or whatever, you don't necessarily have enough to cast Purify on your Nexus.
As I've been playing, I feel like there isn't a reason for MsC to have an attack? Just because it has an attack, it is necessary to make 5+ marines after a standard 1rax expand (2 to cover your mineral line, 3+ to guard the front), which necessarily slows down a lot of plays like thor rushes or reactor hellions, effectively shutting down mech. By the time you can get the tech you want (i.e. hellion/banshee to keep opponent pinned back or 1-2 thors), you are in danger of a plethora of all-in's, including blink, 6-gate, robo, and void ray all-in's. I'm not saying it's impossible to deal with, but it certainly makes things a lot harder for terran players and shuts down a lot of options after 1rax expand.
On a totally unrelated note, easiest way I've found to recall is:
1) select army, right-click on MsC 2) hold position 3) base camera (or screen save) 4) r + click
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On December 19 2012 19:09 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 18:51 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 19 2012 08:19 madals wrote: New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit. Are you kidding? People went apeshit when Protoss upgrades were cheapened by 25/25 on level 3. But 30 seconds later Blink won't make a huge difference. That is almost a Bunker, that is a full production cycle. That will be the end of Blink all ins against good players -.- And that is good fucking thing.
If this were WoL, I would say that everyone needs a few all-ins. But protoss received some good defensive options that don't cut into our builds greatly, so I think terran can get a few breaks and not have to deal with such a sharp opening.
On a side note, getting blink quickly in any standard game will require SO much chrono.
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On December 19 2012 03:49 DinoMight wrote: Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus.
why not just use your camera save hotkey to go to you nexus so it would be selec msc press r, press F2(or whatever hotkey you put it on) click the nexus done this is not hard at all ans really fast
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On December 20 2012 03:09 Khalleb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:49 DinoMight wrote: Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus.
why not just use your camera save hotkey to go to you nexus so it would be selec msc press r, press F2(or whatever hotkey you put it on) click the nexus done this is not hard at all ans really fast
I have done that and it works as expected. I have had some dumb moments when the units I was trying to save wandered slightly out of the Baby-Core recall radius, but all and all, it works well. The ability is not "instant" protoss will still lose some units if they do it during a fight.
Also, people using it to defend a nexus will be very bummed out. The units recall around the nexus, in a totally random fashion and are stunned. There is more than enough time for any player to do some damage to the stunned units and then get out of there(if its a drop).
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United States4883 Posts
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Just curios, but I played a lot of HotS over a month ago and Blink+MSCore was pretty standard in PvP back then.
Why did people recently start complaining? In PvT almost nothing changed. In PvP it means that Phoenix are able to kill the unit used to get high ground vision.
What seemed to be the problem officer?
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Im so happy people have been trying to implement this build w msc. Ive been trying to do this but not sure how to implement thr msc with out delaying blink
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Im so happy people have been trying to implement this build w msc. Ive been trying to do this but not sure how to implement thr msc with out delaying blink
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On December 19 2012 03:32 DinoMight wrote: Why is everyone insisting that a 1 Rax FE should be able hold a Blink all-in? The Blink all-in is a build that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to counter 1 Rax FE, and pretty much falls flat on its face if the Terran is a little less greedy. It keeps Terrans honest. I can't tell you how many Terrans I play on the ladder now (high Diamond/low Masters) who DON'T SCOUT AT ALL TvP.
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech?
TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy.
When do you cut probes, drop a forge at 13, and start massing cannons as well as producing stalkers when you can't find the Terran's rax?
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As protoss, id go msc first against zerg but terrian would be better to get the stalker first. Then continue with the build
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