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On December 20 2012 21:09 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 17:11 ledarsi wrote: Blizzard is deliberately trying to get terran players to run their mines directly into enemy forces and burrow them. This is ridiculous.
Blizzard should be actively trying to discourage using mines like banelings. The baneling never was a very interesting unit, and now they want to make another one that functions slightly differently? No. The mine should be a powerful positional defensive unit. And it should hurt a LOT.
Failing that, just scratch the mine entirely and give the siege tank the kind of damage it needs to do the same job of controlling area. Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 20:56 Decendos wrote: yeah agree they are too high in supply. and its also stupid they negate air harrass so hard. which btw is the main reason why they are 2 supply...
just make them spidermine like ground only with 0,5 supply and its fine. This, this and fucking this a million times. A mine is supposed to be a simple dumb unit which costs almost nothing so you can use it where your army is not. Lower the supply cost. Remove ability to hit air and decrease its range. Make it target cloaked units. Buff splash damage too 100-125 damage. And yeah, a mine is supposed to explode itself together with the enemy. It is the very definition of a suicide unit. It is not a unit that you burrow in front of the enemy while they can see it for gods sake. Right now they are trying to find a way to justify its 2 supply by giving it various random properties, which is completely retarded. We want a mine! Give us a mine.
people were asking for the lurker and the spider mine in hots, and browder thought it would be "cool" to come up with a mix and introduced that bullshit widow mine (which isn't even a mine as you pointed out). It's so flawed, random and poorly thought that I wouldn't mind to see it completely removed, because at this point they hurt terrans more than protosses.
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On December 20 2012 17:11 ledarsi wrote: The baneling never was a very interesting unit, and now they want to make another one that functions slightly differently? No. The mine should be a powerful positional defensive unit. And it should hurt a LOT.
lol when was last time you watch a tournament ? Baneling is prolly the most exciting unit in the game for a viewer. As for the player : shrug, it take micro to use properly to get good hits, isnt a A move unit.
As for the window mine, I could suggest one or both of these change : 1. I would also give the mine a range upgrade (either research and just buff) but dont touch their burrow vision. So if your mine is burrowed, it will have an actual fire range of 3 (or w/e it is now), but with support or a scan that give you vision, your burrowed mine would have a much bigger range. 2 .I would lower the dmg, increase the fire rate and keep the same dps. I dont play terran so maybe I am way off, but I think key to this unit balance is range vs vision. Pretty much like siege tank, where they need vision from something else to reach their full range.
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I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot.
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On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot.
The widow mine is shit against every unit. 40 second cooldown on the missle. Less range than anything that actually has a ranged attack. Very slow unit. Very bad unit. Very bad design.
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Make it powerful, but able to be dodged like a seeker missile.
I made a thread a while ago about reusing the seeker missile mechanic for the widow mine, allowing you to pull out the targeted unit to minimize the splash. If you give it its un-nerfed damage, and increase splash to 60, but allow the opponent to split out the targeted unit, you can let it hit air because stuff like mutas and dropships would be able to either dodge the mine by dragging it out of range as soon as it activates (which would slow down the drop allowing the defender to respond) or drag it into the mineral line, creating a risk/reward for putting it near your workers.
Details:
+ Show Spoiler +Im envisioning a speed that can be dodged by most units and a drag range of ~2 or 3 after the mine triggers from range 5. The mine would start very slow, but would speed up a tiny bit as it approached its target. So if a zealot saw a widow mine activate when it got within 5 range, the zealot could turn and run immediately and get to range 8 before the mine got to the zealot, causing the mine to fizzle and do no damage.
Try dodging 6-10 mines in the middle of an engagement though.
If the opponent doesnt micro, they will lose big time, as it should be.
Blizzard needs to realize that micro can be a balancing factor and not just an unbalancing factor. Having units be dependent on good control is good for the game.
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agree shouldn't focus on 1 Zealot but 1 hallucinated Zealot, taking down 4 supply for some time if you don't pay attention. Bit to late now though, they will need those 3 month to solidify the balance by tweaking some stats and analyzing a stable meta game.
Still tanks basically do 1 or 2 shots in starcraft 2, so the mine is basically a more supply efficient tank and especially works against air.
Would have liked the mine being single use and costing no supply.
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On December 21 2012 03:25 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. The widow mine is shit against every unit. 40 second cooldown on the missle. Less range than anything that actually has a ranged attack. Very slow unit. Very bad unit. Very bad design.
It has range 5, which is the exact same range as a marine, sentry and more than a roach. It moves almost as fast as a stalker or the same speed as a worker. WTF are you talking about?
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot.
Your post needs two big Asterisks
*These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all
**Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself
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On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself
Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field.
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On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great.
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On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great.
They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push.
I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts.
When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to.
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How about we give the Hellion a cloak ability that needs it to be stationary.
That way, with blueflame, the Hellion could become a cloaked line aoe unit that deals 20 concussive damage.
We could call it a lurker
I remember BW, lurkers were awesome at controlling space. Just give Hellions cloak and they'll be exactly like the lurker--except cheaper!
TLDR:
Numbers can always be tweaked--the problem with the widow mine is that lack of commitment. If the point is single target damage--then commit to balance around that. If the goal is to have decent short range cloaked AoE--commit to balancing that.
This wishy washy high, not too high single target with good, not too good, is it too good, aoe crap is just stretching the unit in too many directions. It also needs a name change to stop people whining about it being a mine.
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I agree the widow mine nerf was stupid and makes it far too weak. They need to completely remake the unit and focus it to be better against single units but not so good against groups of small units...
The unit is silly now, it's good against lings and marines etc. but terran already dominates those with hellions/hellbats... Terran doesn't need board control agianst them.. Terran needs a bit of board control against high hp amored units like roaches and stalkers!
Widow mine should really just be 25m25g 1 supply and die on being used. High damage to single target (enough to kill stalker/zealot) but little splash. I don't think it should be hitting air either as terran has enough options agianst that but that wouldn't be too bad. The widow mine role is completley silly now, it only works as board control agianst units you don't need it... The terran updates so far have really been the proof David Kim is terrible at improving this game..
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On December 21 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great. They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push. I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts. When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to. I feel the same way. They are more of a "part of the army" unit rather then the space control they were advertised to be.
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On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. While this is a good point, the more mines you burrow the more investment it is, especially in supply tied. Cluster 4 mines in one place, you might deal a lot of damage or he might spot them with an observer and clear them with a few colossus shots. Losing 8 supply for nothing is a big deal, especially since mech isn't as supply efficient as it used to be in BW. Previously even 1 mine had the potential to make a difference, and it wasn't that much of an investment either.
The way Blizzard is balancing mines, its becoming clearer that their main purpose will be to be used as part of the deathball, to ambush in the middle of the fight and deal as much splash damage as possible. While they are really strong when used like this, its kinda lame how little utility mines end up providing. They're just a part of your main army that works a little different.
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Lots of people aren't considering that the mine takes 2 supply and only attacks once per 40 seconds. It's a terrible unit that causes you to outright lose engagements for what you're paying as far as supply and cost.
It needs to be turned into an actual mine like the spider-mine.
On December 21 2012 03:59 Markwerf wrote: Widow mine should really just be 25m25g 1 supply and die on being used. High damage to single target (enough to kill stalker/zealot) but little splash. I don't think it should be hitting air either as terran has enough options agianst that but that wouldn't be too bad. The widow mine role is completley silly now, it only works as board control agianst units you don't need it... The terran updates so far have really been the proof David Kim is terrible at improving this game..
On December 21 2012 04:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great. They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push. I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts. When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to. I feel the same way. They are more of a "part of the army" unit rather then the space control they were advertised to be.
Well said.
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the problem is that it will always be a lame unit as long as you have to take production time from your factories to build it. disposable mines can't use up production time, wish is why widow mines don't suicide. but if they make them suicide units, they have to make other units produce them, which is too similar to brood war. they have pretty much designed themselves into a corner.
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On December 21 2012 04:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great. They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push. I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts. When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to. I feel the same way. They are more of a "part of the army" unit rather then the space control they were advertised to be.
Space or area control is a really vague term that people use to describe how they feel the unit function. When people say area control, I think envision a unit that kills a lot of units for minimal supply cost, rather than a unit that provides information, damages small groups of units or delays impending attacks.
If you think about it, a pylon can control space for a protoss if used correctly. It can be use to spot expansion, armies and deny drops if the protoss is willing and able to warp in enough units. The widow mine can still do that by providing vision and maybe damaging a drop on a well known drop path(think that path on cloud kingdom, you know the one). Controlling space is more of a vague term in which the player is givin the ability to respond to an army or makes it so the his opponent has to really be careful how they move.
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On December 21 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 04:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great. They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push. I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts. When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to. I feel the same way. They are more of a "part of the army" unit rather then the space control they were advertised to be. Space or area control is a really vague term that people use to describe how they feel the unit function. When people say area control, I think envision a unit that kills a lot of units for minimal supply cost, rather than a unit that provides information, damages small groups of units or delays impending attacks. If you think about it, a pylon can control space for a protoss if used correctly. It can be use to spot expansion, armies and deny drops if the protoss is willing and able to warp in enough units. The widow mine can still do that by providing vision and maybe damaging a drop on a well known drop path(think that path on cloud kingdom, you know the one). Controlling space is more of a vague term in which the player is givin the ability to respond to an army or makes it so the his opponent has to really be careful how they move.
Your definition is wrong actually; by space control he means zone control. Something providing zone/board control makes it dangerous to go within a certain area. A Python will never provide zone control, as there's no reasonable threat for walking near it. By your definition every unit in the game with a sight radius (all of them) and every building with a sight radius (all of them) would provide zone control. This is 100% wrong.
Additionally you really need to stop defending the Widow Mine. It's been the worst new unit in a game for a long time now ever since they fixed the Oracle months ago. It's badly conceived in an attempt to distance itself from it's predecessor, more useful during all-ins and the early-mid game where Terran doesn't need help, and invites you to lose every engagement after 20 minutes.
As a part of fixing Terran if Blizzard were to change the Widow Mine to how it should be (disposable) and to fix the Tank you'd see the quality of the matchups and esports go up substantially overall. Why? Because the return of proper zone control would be back which makes significantly more interesting games as opposed to the current situation of "There's a tank line? I'll just make another round of Zealots and a-move through it" or "He made mines to defend his expansions? I'll just a-move his main and he loses automatically".
Anyways back on solely the Widow Mine even a baby could understand the concept of the mine causing supply indirectly promotes deathballing from both sides ("mines cost significant supply, so if I a-move his main I automatically win", and "Despite naturally I could use mines to defend my expansions if I don't keep my mines with my army then I might lose'"), so this is all really sad on Blizzard's part for not understanding, or not caring.
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On December 21 2012 05:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 04:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great. They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push. I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts. When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to. I feel the same way. They are more of a "part of the army" unit rather then the space control they were advertised to be. Space or area control is a really vague term that people use to describe how they feel the unit function. When people say area control, I think envision a unit that kills a lot of units for minimal supply cost, rather than a unit that provides information, damages small groups of units or delays impending attacks. If you think about it, a pylon can control space for a protoss if used correctly. It can be use to spot expansion, armies and deny drops if the protoss is willing and able to warp in enough units. The widow mine can still do that by providing vision and maybe damaging a drop on a well known drop path(think that path on cloud kingdom, you know the one). Controlling space is more of a vague term in which the player is givin the ability to respond to an army or makes it so the his opponent has to really be careful how they move. Your definition is wrong actually; by space control he means zone control. Something providing zone/board control makes it dangerous to go within a certain area. A Python will never provide zone control, as there's no reasonable threat for walking near it. By your definition every unit in the game with a sight radius (all of them) and every building with a sight radius (all of them) would provide zone control. This is 100% wrong. Additionally you really need to stop defending the Widow Mine. It's been the worst new unit in a game for a long time now ever since they fixed the Oracle months ago. Typing I am wrong does not prove me wrong, though if wishing made it so. Plyons allow the protoss to warp in units, which allow them to deny movement around the map if they make good decisions with their warp ins. We have all seen the warp in wars in professional games, where a terran send 3 marines to kill a proxy pylon, the protoss warps in 2 stalkers to counter them and so on. It is not the best area control, but it is a level of control of a specific space.
And I will continue to defend the widow mine. I have always felt it was a unit with a lot of potential if used well, in the hands of intelligent, creative players with the mechanics to back it up. I have seen it used well and think it has a lot of potential.
PS: I don’t have time to keep up with your re-editing of your post. Clearly you feel strongly about the matter. I don’t agree with you in any way, but you’re entitled to think what you think.
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