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On December 21 2012 09:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Trying to find ways to "fix TvP" directly is awful. Finding ways to make Terran "more Terran" is awesome. The Widow mine is stuck in this "how do we make it work in TvP without breaking the other matches?" and all we have is this blob of metal that does not feel like a terran unit.
Agreed. Blizzard seems absolutely obsessed with their new units, even though they are really terrible compared to the old BW units. Roach, Infestor, Immortal, Colossus, Thor, Widow Mine, etc. They took out or nerfed into the ground core, race-defining units like the Siege Tank, Lurker, Defiler, Reaver... And they really, really want everyone to use their new units all the bloody time, even though they suck in terms of gameplay.
Back to the drawing board, Blizzard. You're charging full price for the expansion anyway. For $40 we expect you to do more than add approximately 2 new units. We want you to fix everything we have been dissatisfied with since the WoL beta, but which you were too stuck in your ways to change. If the HOTS Beta isn't the time to make these big changes, then they'll never happen.
This mindset is the reason why people were freaking out over the future of SC2 so much, with the entire "SaveHOTS" debacle. As much as the big patch put a bandaid on Blizzard's PR nightmare, and made it go away temporarily, the underlying, core problem of dissatisfaction with the new design remains.
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The mine already made ling/bane/muta completely useless and for that I would much rather see it removed completely in favor of something else. Terran has plenty of area control already.
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On December 20 2012 13:44 RavenLoud wrote: Nerfed damage but with 1 supply is ideal imo.
this is just what I thought... I'd rather see minefields zoning out areas, than single mines zoning out. In the current build I dont feel any of two is possible
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On December 21 2012 10:13 Cereb wrote: The mine already made ling/bane/muta completely useless and for that I would much rather see it removed completely in favor of something else. Terran has plenty of area control already. At this point, so close to release, a removal of Widow Mine would just mean 1 fewer unit for Terran in HotS.
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On December 21 2012 10:49 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 10:13 Cereb wrote: The mine already made ling/bane/muta completely useless and for that I would much rather see it removed completely in favor of something else. Terran has plenty of area control already. At this point, so close to release, a removal of Widow Mine would just mean 1 fewer unit for Terran in HotS. As it did with warhound - that didn't stop Blizzard. And if anything it's hellbat that could use removing. It's whole purpose of existence is now gone with mech TvP apparently not being worked on.
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On December 21 2012 10:56 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 10:49 aksfjh wrote:On December 21 2012 10:13 Cereb wrote: The mine already made ling/bane/muta completely useless and for that I would much rather see it removed completely in favor of something else. Terran has plenty of area control already. At this point, so close to release, a removal of Widow Mine would just mean 1 fewer unit for Terran in HotS. As it did with warhound - that didn't stop Blizzard. And if anything it's hellbat that could use removing. It's whole purpose of existence is now gone with mech TvP apparently not being worked on.
I thought it was also supposed to be a supplemental unit to late-game bio to help out with the need for chargelot kiting. I haven't had the chance to try it though since every protoss insists on 1 and 2 base all-ins... I seriously have yet to play a game that gets past 12 minutes without something stupid happening.
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Widow mines were nerfed because blizzard thought it was dumb that they could 1shot banshees and other harass units, which shut down early game harassment. They mention this in their thoughts on patch 10 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416062724#1
I don't think it's too big a change. I'm a terran player who plays in masters in HotS, and I still use mines in TvZ and TvT. If protoss are doing 1 base allins mines can be useful there too. Who's going to blink into a base full of mines?
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On December 20 2012 14:12 codonbyte wrote: I agree, HotS is looking pretty grim for Terran. Unless it improves a lot by the time it's released, I don't think I'll be buying it. It's a shame. I got into BW just before SC2 came out. I sucked at it big-time, but it was loads of fun and it just felt really, really balanced. I got the impression that whoever made it really knew what they were doing when it came to game balance. What happened to the Blizzard that made BW? The more live-streams and pro-games I watch, the more it seems like Blizzard's radio just isn't quite picking up all of the channels. Here's to hoping they fix their antenna by the time Legacy of the Void comes out.
On December 20 2012 14:15 SuperYo1000 wrote: They got old and retired. BW is 15 years old Indeed, those guys are gone, we're stuck with some fool from the C&C team. I honestly think someone who loved and understood BW without a background working on lesser RTS games would do a much better job. But the money men look for direct experience first when hiring. It's sold well so they consider them a successful team (it says Starcraft on the box, it was always going to sell...). The game design team is not anything like that that brought us BW. It's a shame as the engine certainly looks and feels the part, but they turn out some terrible units and spells but just don't seem able to comprehend why some of what they're doing is just plain bad. I don't think there's any malice there, they want the game to be great but they don't fully understand what made BW so, they're proud of some of the bad things in WoL and they don't seem to know which of the myriad voices from the community to listen to.
We seem to be back to the early WoL pattern of nerfing or removing anything that's feels difficult to handle in a small sample of games at a relatively low skill level. While on the other-hand terribly designed swiss army knife spell fungal stays but they try to balance the numbers on it. Not to mention wanting to see the end of the mothership so making a baby mother ship an essential part of the Protoss opening... The current design and balance philosophy is going to end up with a relatively easily figured out boring to watch game with a low skill cap that goes stale before LotV can refresh things again, for a while.
Personally I don't think Terran anti-mech/robo weapons are whats needed, I'd rather see a tank siege mode direct damage buff, some Goliaths and a bit more unit spacing in the game (if only because it'll look better). Then they can get on with bringing back arbiters and coming up with an excuse for why Collosus turned back into Reavers for LotV. But they're too attached to the notion that this is their game and isn't Brood War. Look at the sales figures, they're dong well :|
Now I'm afraid the mammoth tank will roll out a month from now and I'll have to start swearing that that's not what I meant by tank buff..... Desperately hoping for a new RTS or a change to the SC team over at blizard.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 21 2012 12:39 ManicMarine wrote:Widow mines were nerfed because blizzard thought it was dumb that they could 1shot banshees and other harass units, which shut down early game harassment. They mention this in their thoughts on patch 10 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416062724#1I don't think it's too big a change. I'm a terran player who plays in masters in HotS, and I still use mines in TvZ and TvT. If protoss are doing 1 base allins mines can be useful there too. Who's going to blink into a base full of mines?
You don't play Mech vs Protoss I'm guessing?
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On December 21 2012 13:38 mostevil wrote: Now I'm afraid the mammoth tank will roll out a month from now and I'll have to start swearing that that's not what I meant by tank buff..... Desperately hoping for a new RTS or a change to the SC team over at blizard.
Ye gods, he's right.
Asking for a tank buff might prompt them to make a giant Siege Breaker that costs a fortune and is a ridiculous 4 supply or something. These guys are just that stupid.
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On December 21 2012 12:39 ManicMarine wrote:Widow mines were nerfed because blizzard thought it was dumb that they could 1shot banshees and other harass units, which shut down early game harassment. They mention this in their thoughts on patch 10 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416062724#1I don't think it's too big a change. I'm a terran player who plays in masters in HotS, and I still use mines in TvZ and TvT. If protoss are doing 1 base allins mines can be useful there too. Who's going to blink into a base full of mines?
If you make that many mines and the protoss isnt stupid, he will just double expand after taht cause you cant really be aggressive after making so many mines.
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On December 21 2012 12:39 ManicMarine wrote:Widow mines were nerfed because blizzard thought it was dumb that they could 1shot banshees and other harass units, which shut down early game harassment. They mention this in their thoughts on patch 10 http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7416062724#1I don't think it's too big a change. I'm a terran player who plays in masters in HotS, and I still use mines in TvZ and TvT. If protoss are doing 1 base allins mines can be useful there too. Who's going to blink into a base full of mines? If you fill your base with mines you lost anyway, so I dont think it matters that much what the toss will do. But with mummycore in detection mode he probably is barely affected.
And we read why they changed it. And it is stupid, if you lose banshees to widow mines it is your own fault, it is not a reason to make pretty much all toss units survive them. If you have a banshee, either scan enough where mines are or easier, research cloak. These days I go for banshees every TvT, and just yesterday my total number of banshees lost to widow mines has reached the one: someone burrowed two widow mines under my banshee when I wasnt paying attention. So I completely deserved to lose that one, also if he even used one. Besides that it is a matter of remembering where the widow mines got burrowed, sometimes using a scan to kill a few, and pressing cloak when you see one activating to stop it.
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On December 21 2012 13:38 mostevil wrote: Now I'm afraid the mammoth tank will roll out a month from now and I'll have to start swearing that that's not what I meant by tank buff..... Desperately hoping for a new RTS or a change to the SC team over at blizard.
I'm happy I'm not the only person that thinks the SC team at Blizzard needs to change.
The Widow Mine is a disaster. It has killed Mutas in TvZ, leading to these odds buffs to Mutalisks that serve to make them stronger in ZvZ and PvZ. And now with a Widow Mine nerf, Mines are even worse vs Protoss but Mutalisks are still hard countered by them.
Blizzard needs to cut the crap with the gimmicks.
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On December 21 2012 16:45 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 13:38 mostevil wrote: Now I'm afraid the mammoth tank will roll out a month from now and I'll have to start swearing that that's not what I meant by tank buff..... Desperately hoping for a new RTS or a change to the SC team over at blizard. I'm happy I'm not the only person that thinks the SC team at Blizzard needs to change. The Widow Mine is a disaster. It has killed Mutas in TvZ, leading to these odds buffs to Mutalisks that serve to make them stronger in ZvZ and PvZ. And now with a Widow Mine nerf, Mines are even worse vs Protoss but Mutalisks are still hard countered by them. Blizzard needs to cut the crap with the gimmicks.
I agree, but you forgot that early mine rushes prompted Blizzard to give mothership core detection. This will make banshee openers worse.
They are so desperate in finding a new unique role for the widow mine that they are blinded by all the things that it breaks,
Just give us a mine.
High splash damage (100-125), only hits ground units (even cloaked ones), smaller range , suicides on impact. 1 supply !
Simple concept, straightforward to implement. With something like this it would be a very strong unit complementing mech play. Carefully placed mines could deal with blink allins etc.
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Good news, Dustin Browder read this topic. He like the 'mammoth tank" idea. Let's see how it goes.
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On December 22 2012 02:18 Insoleet wrote:Good news, Dustin Browder read this topic. He like the 'mammoth tank" idea. Let's see how it goes.
What mammoth tank idea ????
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Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life.
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You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly.
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On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life.
Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals.
The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion.
But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years.
We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_-
On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly.
You have no clue what you're talking about, nor did you even understand the points I was making in the OP. Also, no one good is going to say that Terran is favored in the beta.
And FYI, I already had posted on the pro forums that the medivac was too strong having the speed boost with no drawback, so it seems you're the one getting emotional reading my posts rather than the other way around. Or you're being a sheepherder jumping on the "hate avilo" train. Nice try.
Another FYI, if you had read the original post, I'm not talking about bio TvP, i'm talking about mech TvP.
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On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly.
Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2.
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