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I'm moderately happy.
Some of the new units are good, but is dumb that the best patches (from the fans perspective) in the hots beta comes from the bigger changes to the units and game dynamic, but they still remain pretty conservative about changing the WoL pillars, pillars that most fans hate or don't like.
Still some stuff is good. New units are decently good (decent, could be a LOT better), and the free region, clan support and unranked play are all very good aditions.
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I think you need a new poll option. Is HoTS better than WoL. I have to answer no to your poll about the direction that they are taking with HoTS. I would have prefered other choices changes like a focus on mid game. But direction aside I do believe that HoTS is better than WoL in almost every way.
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On January 03 2013 08:20 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. You're clearly a complete idiot judging by your post, but going further, Golden Eye and Ocarina of Time are not games you should be comparing HotS to--at least, they aren't the games you should be comparing it to if you want me to be excited about it. The games you should be comparing it to are StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty, StarCraft: Brood War, DotA, League of Legends, Counter Strike 1.6, or other games that have or have had a successful pro scene. You claim that WoL should not be taken seriously, but some of my favorite games are games that I don't take seriously, such as Golden Eye, Ocarina of Time, and Mario Party. I love those games, they're fantastic games, but they're not "serious" games, in the same sense that I expect and want StarCraft II to be. Any game can be played "not seriously" by casual players, but to create a game that is taken seriously enough to have a solid, stable professional scene is a difficult task. I hope that Heart of the Swam is more like Brood War in terms of it's ability to be taken "seriously," but I fear that it will be more along the lines of Golden Eye and Ocarina of Time--games that, while fun, are not terribly exciting for competition.
I didn't read all of your post because obviously you didn't really get it. It was a joke, lol. I never compared HotS to those games. I only went on to talk about the aforementioned because someone basically said they sucked, which is the craziest thing I've seen. The only comparison for HotS that I know is WoL. It seems better to me. Would be pretty weird if it wasn't.
You're a pretty literal guy, I take it. I played ocarina of time and goldeneye for fun. I obviously love those games. Who doesn't? SC, eh, I just like coming up with strats and stuff. If there's a pro scene that can be a viable future for those that are "good," then that's great, too.
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On January 03 2013 01:56 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 00:39 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 23:42 MilesTeg wrote:On January 02 2013 22:41 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 22:34 The_Darkness wrote:On January 02 2013 22:21 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 22:03 MilesTeg wrote: With a community like that Starcraft really doesn't need haters... Constructive criticism is good, brainless bashing isn't.
The game is definitely going in the right direction, it just requires fine tuning at this point. Some things (reapers, mines...) just don't work well but they will be fixed. The new units add a ton of flexibility and stability to Zerg and Protoss, and a lot of potential for aggression and harassment. As an aggressive Zerg who's not a big fan of the deathball it's like they made the game for me.
The game is actually so much better than WoL, I just can't play that game anymore (despite the obvious problems that will be fixed by release - not to mention the ridiculous lag). And then you have the improved matchmaking, which will make a huge difference to me... I'm actually really happy with HotS so far. Lets try to analyze whether HOTS actually is a step in the right direction: Steps forward- Speed Medi - Mothercore - Oracle -Infested terrans Steps the wrong way-Void Ray (unless Blizzard can come up with a creative idea like Onegoal does - I think they would be better of just removing the unit). - Reaper (should be make a viable mid/late game harass unit like the mutalisk instead of the current early tvt shit it is now). - Raven (seeker missile is much more boring right now and opponent can't really remicro against it as one could in WOL). - Swarm hosts (most boring unit in the game). Neither good nor bad- Battle hellions. - Thors -Mines (decent vs zerg - but doesn't work the proper way vs toss and terran). - Tempest (honestly kinda boring). - Viper( cloud is an okay ability, however abduct is badly designed). - Fungal growth Missed oppurtunities that we unfortunately won't see in HOTS-Reworking the economy (reducing the efficiency on 1-2-3 bases). - Removing mules/plantaries as they make the game more boring, and compensation terrans with slighly cheper units mineral wise. -Making mines a viable replacent for plantaries (along with a couple of tanks). Right now the current 2 food version doesn't work. There are however, various different approaches one could take to make them better designed; Onegoal's mines are better. Bw mines are beter. Another kind of mines could be mines which have higher DPS but the opponent can remicro against the mines by moving units in a different location after they get activated. -Corrupters are still boring. -Making tank-mech viable tvp (lots of different approaches they could have experimented with - unfortunately they haven't even tried making this work). - Making reapers a viable mid/late game unit (it is actually extremely fun to play around - shouldn't just be a gimmicky unit). - Making Raven's turrets better. -Redesigning the collosus. - Redesigning snipe/emp as the opponent bacially can't remicro against it. - Making the immortal more interesting. - Redesign warpgate tech (in a similar fashion as onegoal does it - though shouldn't have highest priority). - Making protoss less reliable on forcefields. -Differentiering yamato cannons from seeker missile (though I think we will likely see a change in one of the next patches). -Making fungal slow. Honestly I have a difficult time seeing how people can be satifisied with how Hots looks currently. I played around 300 games of it (as a terran) and I found speed medis very interesting, but kinda lost motivation right now. Too much missed potential, and overall the game isn't noticeable better than Wol. You must have spent at least 30 hours trolling these boards and shitting on various aspects of HoTS. You have already gotten your money's worth from the game and you didn't even purchase it. Also given how much time you spent trolling these boards, I can say with absolute certainty that you will buy HoTS. You're like a guy who constantly bad mouths and picks on a girl, because he likes her and doesn't know how otherwise to express himself. Using logic to make an argument which you disagree with = troll? The reason I enjoy(ed) sc2 has little to do with Dustin Browder and co and more to do with the competent guys who developed BW. The stacraft formula basically could not go completely wrong, even though the current Blizzard guys have made a lot of mistakes. But you know what. You actually got it all wrong. Blizzard should be the one who were thankful. Having people testing the game for free and analyzing the product in detail is extremelye valuable for any company. Blizzard could have developed a much better product if they had spent more time studying proper game design. Using BW as a case study might have been a good idea (clearly, DB didn't do that unfortunately). He's right to be honest. You're the kind of guy who speaks louder than anyone else, and never listens to anything that might challenge your opinion. It's pretty obvious that there's no convincing you, and that if Blizzard does anything that isn't 100% exactly what you, with your superior opinion, think they should do, you will claim that "David Kim is retarded" or "Blizz just doesn't get it". What do you want people to answer? You make claims like "Swarm Host is the most boring unit in the game"... well, as a player I disagree. I think it's the best thing to happen in the game, I think it's better and more fun than the Lurker, I love it. It will take time to figure it out but it might be one of the best and most exciting units in the game, and will in my opinion transform every matchup. The Viper is amazing too, I think in terms of design it's probably better than the defiler. Your missed opportunities are partly stuff that are really just your opinion, and don't forget that they aren't done with the beta either. The infestor, mines, ravens... those things are certainly going to change before release. 1) No he is not right. Look at what he actually wrote; - Troll. No I am not a troll by arguing that Hots isn't worth buying. And to clarifiy my motivation: I really don't want people to buy the game if it turns out to be as bad as expected, and I hope sales figures dissapoints, and DB and co either gets fired and replaced by someone competent. If people just buy the game blindly, Blizzard has no incentive to make the proper changes in the future. - I will definitely buy the game; How does he know that? Why make such a statement. - Picking on a girl... etc...; Doesn't deserve a response. 2) You, however, are writing something else. So let me take a look at your arguments. When I go into an argument I always assume I am right; Yes, what is the big deal? Everybody does that, but the point of the discussion is never to convince the other part, it is to convince other readers/viewers. Do you want me to always go into a dicussion by stating; "I think xxxx", even though that adds nothing to my argument, nothing to the content, its just an emotionel trick to make your self more likeable. But I am not a politican, and I am not in it for the popularity. I am in it for the hard facts and the truth. You argue that my "missed oppurtunities" are filled with my own opinions; Oh sorry, I should have sourced the official "missed opportunities website" instead. Sarcasm off. Honestly, what were you thinking when you wrote that comment? Of course its my own opinions, though I share most of the opinions with the community. Most of the units (with the exception of the ghost I guess) has been discussed many times previously on Teamliquid and I found it unnecessary to go into a lenghty discussion on why starcraft would be better off with those units receiving a proper redesign. Regarding the Swarm Hosts, the main problem with the unit (in my opinion) is that it stagnates mech in tvz. You literraly can't do anything other than massing tanks against hydra/swarm hosts. YOu have to sit and turtle in location X forever... You can't push forward or anything. Your trapped. These kinds of games are insanely boring, and another problem with the unit is that it just isn't good in small numbers. It needs to be "massed" to be efficient. You may think (as a possible zerg player) that it is fun to play against. But try play mech against someone who masses it and you will bore your self to death. Honestly, I also think that turtle mech can be found to execute, but its a pain in the ass to play against, and hopelessly boring for the spectator, thus it is bad design. Abduct is a bad designed spell, because you can't remicro against. But if you disagree with my other suggestions, you are free to argue why you think starcraft couldn't be a better game if corrupters/collosus's.........etc. got redesigned. Do you really think those units are that entertaining? Then you assume that people will figure stuff out. IMO that is the wrong approach. What if it doens't get figured out? Fungal never got figured out, actually infestors just got even more boring to play against over time. You "figure out" guys always assumes that it only goes the one way, e.g. it will always improve the game. But if you doesn't have a proper theoretical understanding of the unit, it could just as well go the other way (when it gets figued out). Everyone is entitled to his opinions, but you write as though your poorly thought out opinions are truth itself. You spend countless hours whining about a game that you don't like and thereby force everyone in these forums to read and re-read your opinions regarding "design" as though we should take your word that some unit is poorly designed based on your playing a few hundred games of HoTS at (I'm guessing) a level substantially below professional play. As an aside, I find the BW dogmatists' (of which you are a key member) line of critique of HoTS particularly obnoxious. To take just one example from the BW dogmatists' canon of HoTS and WOL criticisms, X spell is "bad game design" because it's an anti micro spell. Since the BW dogmatists believe that BW is perfect in every way, I find this criticism extremely hypocritical given, e.g., the importance of the arbiter and the stasis spell in pvt. Everyone is entitled to his opinion but we do not need to be subject to blatant hypocrisy. I also find it extraordinarily arrogant of you to imply that there is an agreed set of rules you must follow for good game design and that you know those rules inside and out, as though you've successfully developed an RTS game in the past. When you say something like "bad game design" you should instead say "I simply do not like X feature" because that is all you can mean. Clearly, it is possible to criticize HoTS, but the exceptionally arrogant way you and a bunch of other BW dogmatists go about it is simply nauseous.
You just discredited your self by calling me a BW dogmastic. Funny, as I never played that game. I just write about good design and honestly design isn't a matter of opinion; There are rules for great design such as micro should be rewarded and people should be rewarded for micro'ing. What you find entertaining, however, is subjective; Game design on the other hand is much more objective. But again, I want you to pick any units from my missed opportunity list and tell me why Starcraft can't be improved by redesigning those units.
You should consider reading the Onegoal mod thread to deepen your "design understanding". Lots of great point's there, even though I don't agree with everything they do.
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On January 03 2013 02:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 01:56 The_Darkness wrote:On January 03 2013 00:39 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 23:42 MilesTeg wrote:On January 02 2013 22:41 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 22:34 The_Darkness wrote:On January 02 2013 22:21 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 22:03 MilesTeg wrote: With a community like that Starcraft really doesn't need haters... Constructive criticism is good, brainless bashing isn't.
The game is definitely going in the right direction, it just requires fine tuning at this point. Some things (reapers, mines...) just don't work well but they will be fixed. The new units add a ton of flexibility and stability to Zerg and Protoss, and a lot of potential for aggression and harassment. As an aggressive Zerg who's not a big fan of the deathball it's like they made the game for me.
The game is actually so much better than WoL, I just can't play that game anymore (despite the obvious problems that will be fixed by release - not to mention the ridiculous lag). And then you have the improved matchmaking, which will make a huge difference to me... I'm actually really happy with HotS so far. Lets try to analyze whether HOTS actually is a step in the right direction: Steps forward- Speed Medi - Mothercore - Oracle -Infested terrans Steps the wrong way-Void Ray (unless Blizzard can come up with a creative idea like Onegoal does - I think they would be better of just removing the unit). - Reaper (should be make a viable mid/late game harass unit like the mutalisk instead of the current early tvt shit it is now). - Raven (seeker missile is much more boring right now and opponent can't really remicro against it as one could in WOL). - Swarm hosts (most boring unit in the game). Neither good nor bad- Battle hellions. - Thors -Mines (decent vs zerg - but doesn't work the proper way vs toss and terran). - Tempest (honestly kinda boring). - Viper( cloud is an okay ability, however abduct is badly designed). - Fungal growth Missed oppurtunities that we unfortunately won't see in HOTS-Reworking the economy (reducing the efficiency on 1-2-3 bases). - Removing mules/plantaries as they make the game more boring, and compensation terrans with slighly cheper units mineral wise. -Making mines a viable replacent for plantaries (along with a couple of tanks). Right now the current 2 food version doesn't work. There are however, various different approaches one could take to make them better designed; Onegoal's mines are better. Bw mines are beter. Another kind of mines could be mines which have higher DPS but the opponent can remicro against the mines by moving units in a different location after they get activated. -Corrupters are still boring. -Making tank-mech viable tvp (lots of different approaches they could have experimented with - unfortunately they haven't even tried making this work). - Making reapers a viable mid/late game unit (it is actually extremely fun to play around - shouldn't just be a gimmicky unit). - Making Raven's turrets better. -Redesigning the collosus. - Redesigning snipe/emp as the opponent bacially can't remicro against it. - Making the immortal more interesting. - Redesign warpgate tech (in a similar fashion as onegoal does it - though shouldn't have highest priority). - Making protoss less reliable on forcefields. -Differentiering yamato cannons from seeker missile (though I think we will likely see a change in one of the next patches). -Making fungal slow. Honestly I have a difficult time seeing how people can be satifisied with how Hots looks currently. I played around 300 games of it (as a terran) and I found speed medis very interesting, but kinda lost motivation right now. Too much missed potential, and overall the game isn't noticeable better than Wol. You must have spent at least 30 hours trolling these boards and shitting on various aspects of HoTS. You have already gotten your money's worth from the game and you didn't even purchase it. Also given how much time you spent trolling these boards, I can say with absolute certainty that you will buy HoTS. You're like a guy who constantly bad mouths and picks on a girl, because he likes her and doesn't know how otherwise to express himself. Using logic to make an argument which you disagree with = troll? The reason I enjoy(ed) sc2 has little to do with Dustin Browder and co and more to do with the competent guys who developed BW. The stacraft formula basically could not go completely wrong, even though the current Blizzard guys have made a lot of mistakes. But you know what. You actually got it all wrong. Blizzard should be the one who were thankful. Having people testing the game for free and analyzing the product in detail is extremelye valuable for any company. Blizzard could have developed a much better product if they had spent more time studying proper game design. Using BW as a case study might have been a good idea (clearly, DB didn't do that unfortunately). He's right to be honest. You're the kind of guy who speaks louder than anyone else, and never listens to anything that might challenge your opinion. It's pretty obvious that there's no convincing you, and that if Blizzard does anything that isn't 100% exactly what you, with your superior opinion, think they should do, you will claim that "David Kim is retarded" or "Blizz just doesn't get it". What do you want people to answer? You make claims like "Swarm Host is the most boring unit in the game"... well, as a player I disagree. I think it's the best thing to happen in the game, I think it's better and more fun than the Lurker, I love it. It will take time to figure it out but it might be one of the best and most exciting units in the game, and will in my opinion transform every matchup. The Viper is amazing too, I think in terms of design it's probably better than the defiler. Your missed opportunities are partly stuff that are really just your opinion, and don't forget that they aren't done with the beta either. The infestor, mines, ravens... those things are certainly going to change before release. 1) No he is not right. Look at what he actually wrote; - Troll. No I am not a troll by arguing that Hots isn't worth buying. And to clarifiy my motivation: I really don't want people to buy the game if it turns out to be as bad as expected, and I hope sales figures dissapoints, and DB and co either gets fired and replaced by someone competent. If people just buy the game blindly, Blizzard has no incentive to make the proper changes in the future. - I will definitely buy the game; How does he know that? Why make such a statement. - Picking on a girl... etc...; Doesn't deserve a response. 2) You, however, are writing something else. So let me take a look at your arguments. When I go into an argument I always assume I am right; Yes, what is the big deal? Everybody does that, but the point of the discussion is never to convince the other part, it is to convince other readers/viewers. Do you want me to always go into a dicussion by stating; "I think xxxx", even though that adds nothing to my argument, nothing to the content, its just an emotionel trick to make your self more likeable. But I am not a politican, and I am not in it for the popularity. I am in it for the hard facts and the truth. You argue that my "missed oppurtunities" are filled with my own opinions; Oh sorry, I should have sourced the official "missed opportunities website" instead. Sarcasm off. Honestly, what were you thinking when you wrote that comment? Of course its my own opinions, though I share most of the opinions with the community. Most of the units (with the exception of the ghost I guess) has been discussed many times previously on Teamliquid and I found it unnecessary to go into a lenghty discussion on why starcraft would be better off with those units receiving a proper redesign. Regarding the Swarm Hosts, the main problem with the unit (in my opinion) is that it stagnates mech in tvz. You literraly can't do anything other than massing tanks against hydra/swarm hosts. YOu have to sit and turtle in location X forever... You can't push forward or anything. Your trapped. These kinds of games are insanely boring, and another problem with the unit is that it just isn't good in small numbers. It needs to be "massed" to be efficient. You may think (as a possible zerg player) that it is fun to play against. But try play mech against someone who masses it and you will bore your self to death. Honestly, I also think that turtle mech can be found to execute, but its a pain in the ass to play against, and hopelessly boring for the spectator, thus it is bad design. Abduct is a bad designed spell, because you can't remicro against. But if you disagree with my other suggestions, you are free to argue why you think starcraft couldn't be a better game if corrupters/collosus's.........etc. got redesigned. Do you really think those units are that entertaining? Then you assume that people will figure stuff out. IMO that is the wrong approach. What if it doens't get figured out? Fungal never got figured out, actually infestors just got even more boring to play against over time. You "figure out" guys always assumes that it only goes the one way, e.g. it will always improve the game. But if you doesn't have a proper theoretical understanding of the unit, it could just as well go the other way (when it gets figued out). Everyone is entitled to his opinions, but you write as though your poorly thought out opinions are truth itself. You spend countless hours whining about a game that you don't like and thereby force everyone in these forums to read and re-read your opinions regarding "design" as though we should take your word that some unit is poorly designed based on your playing a few hundred games of HoTS at (I'm guessing) a level substantially below professional play. As an aside, I find the BW dogmatists' (of which you are a key member) line of critique of HoTS particularly obnoxious. To take just one example from the BW dogmatists' canon of HoTS and WOL criticisms, X spell is "bad game design" because it's an anti micro spell. Since the BW dogmatists believe that BW is perfect in every way, I find this criticism extremely hypocritical given, e.g., the importance of the arbiter and the stasis spell in pvt. Everyone is entitled to his opinion but we do not need to be subject to blatant hypocrisy. I also find it extraordinarily arrogant of you to imply that there is an agreed set of rules you must follow for good game design and that you know those rules inside and out, as though you've successfully developed an RTS game in the past. When you say something like "bad game design" you should instead say "I simply do not like X feature" because that is all you can mean. Clearly, it is possible to criticize HoTS, but the exceptionally arrogant way you and a bunch of other BW dogmatists go about it is simply nauseous. Sir, I could not agree with you more and I love the term "BW dogmatists". I have grown so tired of the ever shifting arguments this subset of the community has latched onto. The overuse of the words "design" and ingorning key facts about BW like that Stasis exisited drives me up the wall and soured some of my enjoyment of the beta. Although they are entitled criticize HotS, I feel this subset also goes of their way to derail any discussion from people who are enthusiastic about HotS or a specific play style.
Read what I actually write instead of what you think I write.
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From my own perspective, the game won't be worth the money. I stopped playing Wings Of Liberty several months ago, it just didn't interest me like it used to. Several of my friends are in the same boat and won't be purchasing the expansion either.
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I think HoTs being worth it is a no brainer.
For me, the new campaign is probably enough on it's own. I thoroughly enjoyed the WoL campaign, and there is no reason to believe that Blizzard won't improve upon this experience.
Ignoring the campaign, there are some really cool things I'm super excited about. The main feature is being able to resume replays. The fact that I will be able to download a pro replay and have a friend and I take control at a point in the match is going to be fun, and a great way to practice.
I've also been playing for the Beta for a few months now, and I really love the new UI. It feels more like a game UI as opposed WoL's awkward UI set up. I am a diamond terran in WoL, and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface of viable unit compositions in each match up in HoTS. Tyler said it best in the drunk SoTG: simply adding several units to the game will increase it's complexity by significant amount, which is a really good thing that will mix up the metagame. I feel like mech,bio, or tank/bio can work in each matchup.
If you are one these types of people who wants to blindly mass a bunch of siege tanks to beat the Protoss, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Someone on this thread said they aren't playing HoTS if they can't mech against Protoss. This is hilarious to me because you've always been able to mech against Protoss, especially if you're in the 99.5% of people who don't play professionally. If you want to play BW, go play BW or the SC2:BW maps, otherwise SC2 is a different game, but a fun game in it's own respect.
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I think HotS is worth it, but for things that are outside the actual game (ie clan support and such)
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On January 03 2013 09:23 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 01:56 The_Darkness wrote:On January 03 2013 00:39 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 23:42 MilesTeg wrote:On January 02 2013 22:41 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 22:34 The_Darkness wrote:On January 02 2013 22:21 Hider wrote:On January 02 2013 22:03 MilesTeg wrote: With a community like that Starcraft really doesn't need haters... Constructive criticism is good, brainless bashing isn't.
The game is definitely going in the right direction, it just requires fine tuning at this point. Some things (reapers, mines...) just don't work well but they will be fixed. The new units add a ton of flexibility and stability to Zerg and Protoss, and a lot of potential for aggression and harassment. As an aggressive Zerg who's not a big fan of the deathball it's like they made the game for me.
The game is actually so much better than WoL, I just can't play that game anymore (despite the obvious problems that will be fixed by release - not to mention the ridiculous lag). And then you have the improved matchmaking, which will make a huge difference to me... I'm actually really happy with HotS so far. Lets try to analyze whether HOTS actually is a step in the right direction: Steps forward- Speed Medi - Mothercore - Oracle -Infested terrans Steps the wrong way-Void Ray (unless Blizzard can come up with a creative idea like Onegoal does - I think they would be better of just removing the unit). - Reaper (should be make a viable mid/late game harass unit like the mutalisk instead of the current early tvt shit it is now). - Raven (seeker missile is much more boring right now and opponent can't really remicro against it as one could in WOL). - Swarm hosts (most boring unit in the game). Neither good nor bad- Battle hellions. - Thors -Mines (decent vs zerg - but doesn't work the proper way vs toss and terran). - Tempest (honestly kinda boring). - Viper( cloud is an okay ability, however abduct is badly designed). - Fungal growth Missed oppurtunities that we unfortunately won't see in HOTS-Reworking the economy (reducing the efficiency on 1-2-3 bases). - Removing mules/plantaries as they make the game more boring, and compensation terrans with slighly cheper units mineral wise. -Making mines a viable replacent for plantaries (along with a couple of tanks). Right now the current 2 food version doesn't work. There are however, various different approaches one could take to make them better designed; Onegoal's mines are better. Bw mines are beter. Another kind of mines could be mines which have higher DPS but the opponent can remicro against the mines by moving units in a different location after they get activated. -Corrupters are still boring. -Making tank-mech viable tvp (lots of different approaches they could have experimented with - unfortunately they haven't even tried making this work). - Making reapers a viable mid/late game unit (it is actually extremely fun to play around - shouldn't just be a gimmicky unit). - Making Raven's turrets better. -Redesigning the collosus. - Redesigning snipe/emp as the opponent bacially can't remicro against it. - Making the immortal more interesting. - Redesign warpgate tech (in a similar fashion as onegoal does it - though shouldn't have highest priority). - Making protoss less reliable on forcefields. -Differentiering yamato cannons from seeker missile (though I think we will likely see a change in one of the next patches). -Making fungal slow. Honestly I have a difficult time seeing how people can be satifisied with how Hots looks currently. I played around 300 games of it (as a terran) and I found speed medis very interesting, but kinda lost motivation right now. Too much missed potential, and overall the game isn't noticeable better than Wol. You must have spent at least 30 hours trolling these boards and shitting on various aspects of HoTS. You have already gotten your money's worth from the game and you didn't even purchase it. Also given how much time you spent trolling these boards, I can say with absolute certainty that you will buy HoTS. You're like a guy who constantly bad mouths and picks on a girl, because he likes her and doesn't know how otherwise to express himself. Using logic to make an argument which you disagree with = troll? The reason I enjoy(ed) sc2 has little to do with Dustin Browder and co and more to do with the competent guys who developed BW. The stacraft formula basically could not go completely wrong, even though the current Blizzard guys have made a lot of mistakes. But you know what. You actually got it all wrong. Blizzard should be the one who were thankful. Having people testing the game for free and analyzing the product in detail is extremelye valuable for any company. Blizzard could have developed a much better product if they had spent more time studying proper game design. Using BW as a case study might have been a good idea (clearly, DB didn't do that unfortunately). He's right to be honest. You're the kind of guy who speaks louder than anyone else, and never listens to anything that might challenge your opinion. It's pretty obvious that there's no convincing you, and that if Blizzard does anything that isn't 100% exactly what you, with your superior opinion, think they should do, you will claim that "David Kim is retarded" or "Blizz just doesn't get it". What do you want people to answer? You make claims like "Swarm Host is the most boring unit in the game"... well, as a player I disagree. I think it's the best thing to happen in the game, I think it's better and more fun than the Lurker, I love it. It will take time to figure it out but it might be one of the best and most exciting units in the game, and will in my opinion transform every matchup. The Viper is amazing too, I think in terms of design it's probably better than the defiler. Your missed opportunities are partly stuff that are really just your opinion, and don't forget that they aren't done with the beta either. The infestor, mines, ravens... those things are certainly going to change before release. 1) No he is not right. Look at what he actually wrote; - Troll. No I am not a troll by arguing that Hots isn't worth buying. And to clarifiy my motivation: I really don't want people to buy the game if it turns out to be as bad as expected, and I hope sales figures dissapoints, and DB and co either gets fired and replaced by someone competent. If people just buy the game blindly, Blizzard has no incentive to make the proper changes in the future. - I will definitely buy the game; How does he know that? Why make such a statement. - Picking on a girl... etc...; Doesn't deserve a response. 2) You, however, are writing something else. So let me take a look at your arguments. When I go into an argument I always assume I am right; Yes, what is the big deal? Everybody does that, but the point of the discussion is never to convince the other part, it is to convince other readers/viewers. Do you want me to always go into a dicussion by stating; "I think xxxx", even though that adds nothing to my argument, nothing to the content, its just an emotionel trick to make your self more likeable. But I am not a politican, and I am not in it for the popularity. I am in it for the hard facts and the truth. You argue that my "missed oppurtunities" are filled with my own opinions; Oh sorry, I should have sourced the official "missed opportunities website" instead. Sarcasm off. Honestly, what were you thinking when you wrote that comment? Of course its my own opinions, though I share most of the opinions with the community. Most of the units (with the exception of the ghost I guess) has been discussed many times previously on Teamliquid and I found it unnecessary to go into a lenghty discussion on why starcraft would be better off with those units receiving a proper redesign. Regarding the Swarm Hosts, the main problem with the unit (in my opinion) is that it stagnates mech in tvz. You literraly can't do anything other than massing tanks against hydra/swarm hosts. YOu have to sit and turtle in location X forever... You can't push forward or anything. Your trapped. These kinds of games are insanely boring, and another problem with the unit is that it just isn't good in small numbers. It needs to be "massed" to be efficient. You may think (as a possible zerg player) that it is fun to play against. But try play mech against someone who masses it and you will bore your self to death. Honestly, I also think that turtle mech can be found to execute, but its a pain in the ass to play against, and hopelessly boring for the spectator, thus it is bad design. Abduct is a bad designed spell, because you can't remicro against. But if you disagree with my other suggestions, you are free to argue why you think starcraft couldn't be a better game if corrupters/collosus's.........etc. got redesigned. Do you really think those units are that entertaining? Then you assume that people will figure stuff out. IMO that is the wrong approach. What if it doens't get figured out? Fungal never got figured out, actually infestors just got even more boring to play against over time. You "figure out" guys always assumes that it only goes the one way, e.g. it will always improve the game. But if you doesn't have a proper theoretical understanding of the unit, it could just as well go the other way (when it gets figued out). Everyone is entitled to his opinions, but you write as though your poorly thought out opinions are truth itself. You spend countless hours whining about a game that you don't like and thereby force everyone in these forums to read and re-read your opinions regarding "design" as though we should take your word that some unit is poorly designed based on your playing a few hundred games of HoTS at (I'm guessing) a level substantially below professional play. As an aside, I find the BW dogmatists' (of which you are a key member) line of critique of HoTS particularly obnoxious. To take just one example from the BW dogmatists' canon of HoTS and WOL criticisms, X spell is "bad game design" because it's an anti micro spell. Since the BW dogmatists believe that BW is perfect in every way, I find this criticism extremely hypocritical given, e.g., the importance of the arbiter and the stasis spell in pvt. Everyone is entitled to his opinion but we do not need to be subject to blatant hypocrisy. I also find it extraordinarily arrogant of you to imply that there is an agreed set of rules you must follow for good game design and that you know those rules inside and out, as though you've successfully developed an RTS game in the past. When you say something like "bad game design" you should instead say "I simply do not like X feature" because that is all you can mean. Clearly, it is possible to criticize HoTS, but the exceptionally arrogant way you and a bunch of other BW dogmatists go about it is simply nauseous. You just discredited your self by calling me a BW dogmastic. Funny, as I never played that game. I just write about good design and honestly design isn't a matter of opinion; There are rules for great design such as micro should be rewarded and people should be rewarded for micro'ing. What you find entertaining, however, is subjective; Game design on the other hand is much more objective. But again, I want you to pick any units from my missed opportunity list and tell me why Starcraft can't be improved by redesigning those units. You should consider reading the Onegoal mod thread to deepen your "design understanding". Lots of great point's there, even though I don't agree with everything they do.
Among members of the community who feel there are problems with WoL / HotS, and particularly among those who seem to put a significant amount of thought and analysis into their posts, there is an almost startling consensus about which units/abilities are problematic. Deathball syndrome, fungal and "anti micro", snipe overnerf, reapers being too good early game and obsolete in mid/late, lack of bwesque tvp mech, blandness of corrupters, etc. If people were just pulling opinions out of their ass you would not expect everyone to bring up these same points over and over.
I just don't like the amount of ad hominem being thrown at this guy. Most of his opinions are backed up not only by consensus among those in the community that bother to comment on design, but also blizzard themselves. Half of what I just listed are either being actively patched/redesigned or acknowledged as problematic in patch "thoughts" or twitter, forum, etc statements by members of the dev team. Too much talk in here about "bw fanaticism" and "wants to blindly mass tanks"... As if bw isn't the best designed rts of all time and tanks, as if tank pushing, tank hopping, and tank expands don't create insanely dynamic play. Most of the arguments I've seen against changing what blizz/the community feels are problems in sc2 are poor, and these stereotypes and personal attacks are some of the worst.
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I played around 300 games of Ranked matches already. It's clearly unbalanced atm , but I enjoy it waay more than WoL. It's more exciting
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No way no how. There isn't one exciting thing about HotS imo. The new units are just dull as hell or just some revamped crap, widow mine? hellbat? really? thats what Terran is getting? Wow. The campaign is built around a completely ridiculous story, that, after Raynor rescues Kerrigan from the Swarm, she is... turned back into the Queen of Blades somehow? Seriously? ZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz... All the maps I have seen are complete garbage, they are all gigantic maps with tons of expansions and HUGE rush distances, making the deathball problem ever prevalent. There are no new exciting early game strats, aside from perhaps the MSC and maaaaybe widow mines, but for the most part it just seems like more deathball/late game/macro nonsense that weve been playing in WoL for nearly 2 years. PASS
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On January 03 2013 09:49 ckcornflake wrote: I think HoTs being worth it is a no brainer.
For me, the new campaign is probably enough on it's own. I thoroughly enjoyed the WoL campaign, and there is no reason to believe that Blizzard won't improve upon this experience.
Ignoring the campaign, there are some really cool things I'm super excited about. The main feature is being able to resume replays. The fact that I will be able to download a pro replay and have a friend and I take control at a point in the match is going to be fun, and a great way to practice.
I've also been playing for the Beta for a few months now, and I really love the new UI. It feels more like a game UI as opposed WoL's awkward UI set up. I am a diamond terran in WoL, and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface of viable unit compositions in each match up in HoTS. Tyler said it best in the drunk SoTG: simply adding several units to the game will increase it's complexity by significant amount, which is a really good thing that will mix up the metagame. I feel like mech,bio, or tank/bio can work in each matchup.
If you are one these types of people who wants to blindly mass a bunch of siege tanks to beat the Protoss, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Someone on this thread said they aren't playing HoTS if they can't mech against Protoss. This is hilarious to me because you've always been able to mech against Protoss, especially if you're in the 99.5% of people who don't play professionally. If you want to play BW, go play BW or the SC2:BW maps, otherwise SC2 is a different game, but a fun game in it's own respect.
Lol really? Mech is just terrible in TvP, it has been proven time and time again and any theories on how it may work have been crushed.
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Definitely worth the purchase even if only for the purpose of supporting Starcraft!
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On January 02 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 18:35 FutureBreedMachine wrote: if they change the pathing then it's worth it I wonder when people will realize that pathing as nothing to do with deatballling Deathballing is just a matter of units design, which are better in a ball than spreaded in multifront.
Deathballs were strong in BW too, but it took too long to move in a deathball that often it wasn't worth it, because it would take too long to move like that. You just move in a line, and then clump up at the end, which allowed for flanking.
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On January 03 2013 13:02 JabbatheSlutt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 09:49 ckcornflake wrote: I think HoTs being worth it is a no brainer.
For me, the new campaign is probably enough on it's own. I thoroughly enjoyed the WoL campaign, and there is no reason to believe that Blizzard won't improve upon this experience.
Ignoring the campaign, there are some really cool things I'm super excited about. The main feature is being able to resume replays. The fact that I will be able to download a pro replay and have a friend and I take control at a point in the match is going to be fun, and a great way to practice.
I've also been playing for the Beta for a few months now, and I really love the new UI. It feels more like a game UI as opposed WoL's awkward UI set up. I am a diamond terran in WoL, and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface of viable unit compositions in each match up in HoTS. Tyler said it best in the drunk SoTG: simply adding several units to the game will increase it's complexity by significant amount, which is a really good thing that will mix up the metagame. I feel like mech,bio, or tank/bio can work in each matchup.
If you are one these types of people who wants to blindly mass a bunch of siege tanks to beat the Protoss, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Someone on this thread said they aren't playing HoTS if they can't mech against Protoss. This is hilarious to me because you've always been able to mech against Protoss, especially if you're in the 99.5% of people who don't play professionally. If you want to play BW, go play BW or the SC2:BW maps, otherwise SC2 is a different game, but a fun game in it's own respect. Lol really? Mech is just terrible in TvP, it has been proven time and time again and any theories on how it may work have been crushed.
He means mech is a viable strategy among players who suck too much to make a difference, which are the majority of players on Battlenet.
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On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance.
Google Translate from English to Mindless Bandwagoner: "Yeah SC2 is dead game so dead tournies are shit shit game shitty shit bad dead game dead game bad dead game esports is only LoL now dota 2 shit dead game"
Literally just read that in the first sentence.
On January 02 2013 19:58 moskonia wrote: Its a trend to hate on SC2 atm, and those who don't are considered fanboys and ignored because of that, but in seriousness SC2 is the BEST game that currently exist, at least for me. While the current metagame is a bit stale, its only because of the maps, and that is why for example the proleague is so exiting. Compare the amount of time per price you did on WoL to other games and you will see it was worth it as hell, that will be the same as for HotS, that is why I see no reason not to get it.
If you really dislike the game so much that your not even going to buy it, then why are you here in the forum? If you're going to say that you simply want to try and improve it, trying to somehow "save" it, then its a non-valid argument, since most of the changes to WoL were given not in the beta, but after it, so the of course at the start HotS will be imbalanced, and as more ways to play it are figured out it will prove to be imbalanced until patches and player creativity will lead to a changing balanced metagame.
^^ this is spot on
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I'll get it no matter what, HotS is gonna be big!
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On January 02 2013 18:40 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 18:35 FutureBreedMachine wrote: if they change the pathing then it's worth it I wonder when people will realize that pathing as nothing to do with deatballling Deathballing is just a matter of units design, which are better in a ball than spreaded in multifront.
No. Deathballing is caused by a couple things.
1) Unit collision boxes 2) Unit pathing 3) Design of the Protoss race
Unit collision boxes are non-existent, meaning units can dry-hump each other. This significantly increases the effectiveness of ranged units by clumping more of them in a smaller space and reducing the surface area that melee units have against them. Furthermore, a clumping pathing automatically does this for players. The design of the Protoss race is a whole difference issue, but, needless to say, Protoss isn't conducive to splitting armies.
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On January 02 2013 18:46 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. I agree so much with you ! Hots is very macro-oriented, but all new units and tweaks done are here to promote multipronged aggression and multitasking... And that's awesome !
LOL, other than 1/1/1 I never had an all in that was that great in WoL as terran but I have still not lost a game doing 1 base mine drops xD
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