We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
We're thinking on a few changes and wanted to get your thoughts as well. Please remember none of these are final.
Overlord speed upgrade moved down to tier 1
HotS has given a lot more tech options to all three races, and we feel scouting is more important than ever. Terran/Protoss already got their scouting buffs, and we felt Zerg could use one too. Keep in mind this isn't as crazy as it sounds because you still need to spend the extra 100/100 resources as well as 100 seconds to get this upgrade in tier 1.
Spore buff vs. bio (maybe 15 +15bio) Fungal missile speed down a bit more
We think in ZvZ Mutalisks are a bit too dominant right now.We're realizing the Fungal Growth nerf was too much vs. Mutas and potentially not enough vs. other units.
Therefore, we think a +bio buff to Spores will only mostly affect Mutalisks to make room for ground based strategies in ZvZ. And we're hoping this gives us more room to nerf Fungal Growth a bit more. We feel units like Mutalisks, Hydralisks, or Ultralisks received significant buffs in Heart of the Swarm that it's probably ok to tone down the Infestor a bit more.
Oracle Envision duration increased from 30 seconds to 60 seconds
This one is to make this spell a bit more viable.
Only big change being overlord speed on tier 1 I think.
EDIT: Spore buff won't affect ZvZ so much, because when people have a big enough muta flock they basically oneshot spores anyway. Envision is rarely used. Could see more use with that change but I doubt it.
On February 05 2013 03:37 HelloSon wrote: Overlord speed change shouldn't affect too much. Burrow change was bigger IMO and that hasn't had much an effect so far.
Spore buff is good as well as infestor nerf.
If they want more burrow play earlier on, I wouldn't be surprsied if they decreased the research time on it. Right now it's 80 seconds for Lair and 110 for burrow.
Also, 37 days until official HotS release! Can't wait myself. Hopefully the game will be decently balanced (I expect a day 1 patch). Here's to another 3 years
I like the envision buff, 30 seconds was just not really long enough to comfortably shut down DT rushes especially since it costs 50 energy and you'd rather be building void rays or phoenix for PvP defense. It will be easier to cover more ground now, making builds like 2g stargate expand even more viable.
On February 05 2013 03:37 HelloSon wrote: Overlord speed change shouldn't affect too much. Burrow change was bigger IMO and that hasn't had much an effect so far.
Spore buff is good as well as infestor nerf.
It's only big is if zergs decide now that they have speed on overlords that once lair is done then researching drop tech might become more standard.
@Spore buff, I was like wtf is bio and flying at first lol (was only thinking ZvP, ZvT.
The envision duration increase makes sense in my opinion.
I'm interested to see how the Zerg changes pan out. Seems like they are focused on smaller problems now, indicating they are overall quite happy with the state of the beta.
They're still avoiding fundamental issues with units that it's really getting absurd, they're doing the small stuff before the big changes.... We'll get through beta and still have broken units at this rate :/
Fungal sounds ehh.. the problem isn't if it hits or not, just the effect it has. You're never going to miss fungals in a 200/200 fight...So I don't really understand this line of thinking, it just makes casting the spell harder than it should be for absolutely no reason :/ I think the spore buff sounds good for some variance, or at least attempted variance in ZvZ. Oracle envision doesn't really help because 30 is all you need to make a 2nd one+robotics--> observer... Don't really have an opinion too much on overlords, seems fine.
So, the one thing everyone is saying is that Zerg is to weak vs any mass air play from either terran or toss in later stages of the game, and they think scouting something we cannot stop is going to help us out ?
Really I wanna know how to beat sky terran, havent seen it been done so far.
On February 05 2013 03:47 Buffy wrote: So, the one thing everyone is saying is that Zerg is to weak vs any mass air play from either terran or toss in later stages of the game, and they think scouting something we cannot stop is going to help us out ?
Really I wanna know how to beat sky terran, havent seen it been done so far.
Ditto, and they do realize that infestors are fine now because it is actually possible to win without them now. Since I started playing beta i rarely make investors outside of zvz anymore.
I really was expecting more and bigger changes,but it seems they wont do them.
Agree with all new changes.Its ok for Zerg to scout better and Oracle as well,but I still wait for TvP Mech improvements.No buff to siege tanks?Free siege is not enough.Tanks shoot slower and weaker than immortals and the HP are pretty low...Just buff their vs Mech damage....
I don't understand, they say they dislike too much muta in ZvZ and at the same time they want to reduce fungal speed? Won't that increase muta play even more..?
Spores will now kill Mutas in 5 hits (4 assuming there's a queen by it).
Basically when the first 8 or so Mutas pop out for Zerg, one spore at each base will shut down Muta harass HARD. Notice your opponent going for a mass Muta flock? Just toss down another spore at your bases and you have 2 static defenses dealing 30 damage a piece. I almost feel like the change will kill Muta play since spores will absolutely demolish them.
Looking at the change though, I feel like Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity to just buff the fucking Hydralisk against air.
... Wow I have to say how disappointing. Spore buff is meh. I am fine with zvz staying muta wars there are way more pressing issues then that rofl. No nerfs to void rays. Wonder how long till they realize how broken they are en mass.
I'm absolutely shocked that they're not taking the nerf bat to the hellbat (pun most definitely intended.) IMO (and evidenced by the post I made earlier about fast hellbat drops in TvZ) the hellbat seems a little too strong when combined with medivacs right now.
I will say though, I'm absolutely loving the new raven hunter seeker changes. I've started going double tech starport in every matchup because of how good they are now!
Roach/hydra/viper, meet your beeping doom, muahahahah!
On February 05 2013 03:51 sagefreke wrote: Spore buff is going to be the biggest change.
Spores will now kill Mutas in 5 hits (4 assuming there's a queen by it).
Basically when the first 8 or so Mutas pop out for Zerg, one spore at each base will shut down Muta harass HARD. Notice your opponent going for a mass Muta flock? Just toss down another spore at your bases and you have 2 static defenses dealing 30 damage a piece. I almost feel like the change will kill Muta play since spores will absolutely demolish them.
Looking at the change though, I feel like Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity to just buff the fucking Hydralisk against air.
Not to be a dick, but this changes nothing, you can still not move out from your base, and if you see them mass spores you can just take another base and keep map control, this will change nothing except the initial 8 mutas, when the muta flock is at 24 and you have ling / bane with speed banes and ultras, and he is maxxed on his hydra roach army, you are still dead.
Only thing this will possibly change is the fact that muta vs muta doesnt never end up in a baserace again
I'm not sure about buffing Zerg scouting... I like there to be more option between taking risks and playing safe, and Zerg should have to build some units to be safe against anything if they can't scout everything. Buffing scouting just lets Zergs Drone more confidently, which I don't think is a good thing.
When the opponent can scout really easily, it basically limits
They're buffing mutas and buffing some things to counter them, but other ground units don't do well enough against them. Stalkers, Hydras and Thors in particular, I think need to be buffed as alternative ground-to-air. But I like the Nerf to fungal and the spore buff against Mutas, since Infestors are actually a very strong ground-to-air unit and they are the only unit that really shouldn't be since they have a massive amount of utility in their root.
I hope we can see a little Hydra buff.
Oracle Envision... Seems like a good change. I never see it used.
On February 05 2013 03:51 sagefreke wrote: Spore buff is going to be the biggest change.
Spores will now kill Mutas in 5 hits (4 assuming there's a queen by it).
Basically when the first 8 or so Mutas pop out for Zerg, one spore at each base will shut down Muta harass HARD. Notice your opponent going for a mass Muta flock? Just toss down another spore at your bases and you have 2 static defenses dealing 30 damage a piece. I almost feel like the change will kill Muta play since spores will absolutely demolish them.
Looking at the change though, I feel like Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity to just buff the fucking Hydralisk against air.
How can you buff them vs. air? Their damage is huge, it's just they melt to anything. So all you can do is give them like +1 armor by default, but that would be very strong vs. ground too.
On February 05 2013 03:49 Dvriel wrote: TvP Mech improvements.No buff to siege tanks?Free siege is not enough.Tanks shoot slower and weaker than immortals and the HP are pretty low...Just buff their vs Mech damage....
Start getting ravens in the mid-game and target morts/col/voids/etc. you'll be glad you did
What scouting buffs did terran get? Reaper?? Terran by now has the worst or rather the most expensive scouting options, especially in tvp it is a guessing game what allin the protoss is gonna do. Also where is the much needed nerf to oracles?
the spore buff is a very clever way to target only zvz. This is the sort of thing they should be trying to find more often when going after a specific matchup for balance.
The overlord speed buff is useless. A zerg can scout anything he needs based on openings and gas timings. You don't actually need to see the tech structures to scout your opponent. The only time you ever make speed overlords is for drop play.
one Mutalisk (9 damage) attacking Spore (1 armor) deals 8 damage every attack. Divide this by the attack cooldown to get your DPS of 5.2
ten mutas attacking one spore crawler deal 52 damage each second, taking it a total of 7.69 seconds to kill one spore
in this time, the spore obviously fights back. It will deal 30 damage each attack, with an attack cooldown of .8608. The DPS of the spore will be 34.85. During the 7.69 seconds it takes to kill a spore, it will deal 267.99 damage to the flock of mutalisks.
This is enough DPS to have just one spore crawler (with nothing else attacking the mutas) kill two whole mutalisks in the time. Both Mutas and spores have the minor zerg regen but I don't think it changes the outcome.
So, one spore (75 minerals + 50 for drone = 125) kills 2 mutas (200/200). This doesn't take into account a spore + queen, a spore + queen and transfusions, or multiple spores.
I think a buff to the hydralisk would be a better option to shutting down mass mutas.
Spores already own mutas, atleast mine do. The problem is that you need to kill the mutas or they are back at full health in a minute. It is way more interesting if mutas don't die with good micro and the opponent just weakens them to a point they can't attack into anti air anymore. As long as they regenerate, there will be the need for something that kills them easily, something the muta player can't avoid. Basically a Vessel that is out at the same time as the Mutas.
On February 05 2013 03:49 Dvriel wrote: TvP Mech improvements.No buff to siege tanks?Free siege is not enough.Tanks shoot slower and weaker than immortals and the HP are pretty low...Just buff their vs Mech damage....
Start getting ravens in the mid-game and target morts/col/voids/etc. you'll be glad you did
None of this units die to HSM and they can easily avoid it just going back.Vikings are much better vs P AIR and the immortals still need EMPs or insane amount of tanks.
On February 05 2013 03:55 Gfire wrote: I'm not sure about buffing Zerg scouting... I like there to be more option between taking risks and playing safe, and Zerg should have to build some units to be safe against anything if they can't scout everything. Buffing scouting just lets Zergs Drone more confidently, which I don't think is a good thing.
When the opponent can scout really easily, it basically limits
They're buffing mutas and buffing some things to counter them, but other ground units don't do well enough against them. Stalkers, Hydras and Thors in particular, I think need to be buffed as alternative ground-to-air. But I like the Nerf to fungal and the spore buff against Mutas, since Infestors are actually a very strong ground-to-air unit and they are the only unit that really shouldn't be since they have a massive amount of utility in their root.
I hope we can see a little Hydra buff.
Oracle Envision... Seems like a good change. I never see it used.
No competent zerg will EVER make speed overlords that early. It is a complete waste of money. You can reasonably identify whatever your opponent is doing based on gas and expansion timings.For example, If I am playing a terran that does a one rax expand, i simply park my overlord behind his natural and if the terran takes his gas before the 6:30 mark, it is 100% mech so I will put up spore crawlers and make a roach warren. There is no pt ever getting overlord speed early game. The only time you would get it is for drop play.
On February 05 2013 03:51 sagefreke wrote: Spore buff is going to be the biggest change.
Spores will now kill Mutas in 5 hits (4 assuming there's a queen by it).
Basically when the first 8 or so Mutas pop out for Zerg, one spore at each base will shut down Muta harass HARD. Notice your opponent going for a mass Muta flock? Just toss down another spore at your bases and you have 2 static defenses dealing 30 damage a piece. I almost feel like the change will kill Muta play since spores will absolutely demolish them.
Looking at the change though, I feel like Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity to just buff the fucking Hydralisk against air.
Not to be a dick, but this changes nothing, you can still not move out from your base, and if you see them mass spores you can just take another base and keep map control, this will change nothing except the initial 8 mutas, when the muta flock is at 24 and you have ling / bane with speed banes and ultras, and he is maxxed on his hydra roach army, you are still dead.
Only thing this will possibly change is the fact that muta vs muta doesnt never end up in a baserace again
So the fact that Mutas now die to static defense in half as many hits changes nothing?
The first flock of Mutas that pop out are the most important part for harassing the opponent. If I as the opponent know I can easily defend my base from Mutas and ling runbys with just a couple queens a spore at each base and some banes ill do It everytime as I move out to kill them while their Mutas take heavy losses from trying attack my mineral lines. There's no way in hell the Opponent who went Mutas is going to stop a roach Hydra push with his lings and slow banes that early. I'd have to majorly fuck up my micro to lose speed hydras to slow banes.
I'm sorry but the spore change is going to shut down Muta harass easily. Gone are the days where the player who goes Hydras has to sit and defend against Muta harass for fear that his mineral lines will get demolished if he moves out
The spore buff is shutting down mutas hard, why do we need a hard counter. Even if you are not going muta people have figured out how to defend them. The spore buff is unneeded.
I dont get the changes. What is the overlord speed buff gonna do? Its really easy to scout Terran and vs. P you would never spend the gas just to get a slightly increased chance to exactly see what P is doing. By sending in the overlord you almost always get an idea.
I think there are more pressing matters in all matchups than giving zerg T1 overlord speed lol
On February 05 2013 03:37 HelloSon wrote: Overlord speed change shouldn't affect too much. Burrow change was bigger IMO and that hasn't had much an effect so far.
Spore buff is good as well as infestor nerf.
If they want more burrow play earlier on, I wouldn't be surprsied if they decreased the research time on it. Right now it's 80 seconds for Lair and 110 for burrow.
Also, 37 days until official HotS release! Can't wait myself. Hopefully the game will be decently balanced (I expect a day 1 patch). Here's to another 3 years
I'm pretty excited to, mostly for the single player but yeah it should be fun .
On February 05 2013 04:11 j4vz wrote: I dont understand the overlord changes, but i guess silver players can now 1 base doom drop
So I guess you're in bronze, 'cos you don't know there is a drop upgrade too?:p
Anyway, back to the topic. As a zerg, only ZvZ gives some fun now, with muta vs muta wars (I guess almost everyone likes it more than roaches ). And it's the only matchup that's getting changes. Sux. I also think that hydra need some buffs. It will be good against mutas, sky toss and sky terran. At the moment all of these are hard to counter. (Coruptor seems like most useless unit in game)
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed boost needs to be researchable.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed bost needs to be researchable.
idk, hellbats seem kind of ridiculous. i could see marauder/hellbat being an absolute nightmare.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed bost needs to be researchable.
I still think having Fire I mean hellbats as biologicial is a pretty stupid decision.
I saw a TvZ on the korea server where the zerg held hellbat drops with 3-4 queens, but that was without the medivac healing them
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed bost needs to be researchable.
I feel like the zerg buffs of moving stuff to tier 1 seems to be just trying to influence more all-in builds. I wonder when we will see lategame buffs to Zerg because I think its pretty well known that Zerg can't really compete with protoss or terran late game sky builds, as well as some of the early-game terran things like hellbat or mine drops.
I'm surprised about the fungal nerf, have people still been using fungal growth alot? It seems people don't often go mass infestor anymore and I've seen units escape fungals all the time now on gms streams.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Nice try on the +light for spore, but what spores really need to deal with muta balls is 0.5 radius splash. So small that it is less than a unit wide so they really have to be stacked to all get hit.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed bost needs to be researchable.
I still think having Fire I mean hellbats as biologicial is a pretty stupid decision.
I saw a TvZ on the korea server where the zerg held hellbat drops with 3-4 queens, but that was without the medivac healing them
everyone does, except the stupid decision makers *COUGH BLIZ Z COUGH COUGH DONNUT
On February 05 2013 04:24 Disastorm wrote: I feel like the zerg buffs of moving stuff to tier 1 seems to be just trying to influence more all-in builds. I wonder when we will see lategame buffs to Zerg because I think its pretty well known that Zerg can't really compete with protoss or terran late game sky builds, as well as some of the early-game terran things like hellbat or mine drops.
I'm surprised about the fungal nerf, have people still been using fungal growth alot? It seems people don't often go mass infestor anymore and I've seen units escape fungals all the time now on gms streams.
I actually think all the tier 1 buff make all in builds less viable. The more you spend on early game upgrades the less money you have to make units. For example, If I research roach burrow when doing a roach bane all in. That means I either make 4 less roaches or 4 less banelings. 4 less roaches in a roach timing is a HUGE deal and it makes your attack far less potent.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
i can just underline that
Don't bother getting woried just assume that the game will release with bad balance. I don't think theres anyone whos waiting to see the balance on release before deciding to buy the game or not. WOL launched with bad balance and it seems that its successor HOTS will launch with its balance in shambles.
On February 05 2013 03:43 Valon wrote: So when are they going to buff zerg AA so we can actually win against sky toss late game?
In about a year probably. Sounds to me like they are going to do exactly what they did for WoL when bl/corr/infestor was overpowered, wait a 6 months minimum and then slightly nerf it is my guess. Shame I wish they would look at it sooner as like every zerg I see complains about it and even a lot of protoss players agree it's to strong :/.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
i can just underline that
Don't bother getting woried just assume that the game will release with bad balance. I don't think theres anyone whos waiting to see the balance on release before deciding to buy the game or not. WOL launched with bad balance and it seems that its successor HOTS will launch with its balance in shambles.
My biggest fear for HotS is to have a repeat of the reaper: A unit that is very strong at launch and is nerfed into uselessness for a few years until the next expansion pack comes out to re-make that unit.
On February 05 2013 03:43 Valon wrote: So when are they going to buff zerg AA so we can actually win against sky toss late game?
In about a year probably. Sounds to me like they are going to do exactly what they did for WoL when bl/corr/infestor was overpowered, wait a 6 months minimum and then slightly nerf it is my guess. Shame I wish they would look at it sooner as like every zerg I see complains about it and even a lot of protoss players agree it's to strong :/.
sad thing is it's not the only bullshit thing they're going to ship with the game. there's way more broken stuff getting shipped with hots than there was with wol, and if they handle it the way they did last time, idk how many people will be quite as patient again.
Well reading these patch notes the biggest disappointment was the lack of any changes to high-ground mechanics that they teased at earlier. As for the changes they did make, moving Overlord speed to tier 1 is a great change. What it lets a Zerg do is play reactive moving into Lair tech. So drops are not an all-in play, you can scout and if you see the right composition/opportunity you can upgrade drop. It's not going to be Zerg OP, the investment to get gas that early should be, and now will be, the real limiting factor of Zerg tech. The spore change is just silly IMO, they think numbers fix fundamental flaws in game design and unit dynamics. A spore doing a lot of damage is no different, all you have to do is pull the muta getting shot back and it's the exact same net effect.
Hydras need a little love so they are potent against mutas without the added time investment of 1 and potentially 2 upgrades. The overlord speed change makes reactive hydra viable except that the first 5-8 mutas will still give complete map control and a slow third for the non-muta player. As for the side remark about the infestor, it's just absurd that Blizzard doesn't recognize the gaping vulnerability Zergs have to deal with in the mid-game especially against Terran. I'm not saying infestors are the solution to hellbats or widow mine + tank pushes, but they're certainly not in a place where they need to be nerfed more unless this change is primarily targeted at ZvZ.
the overlord speed change won't affect the game. 100 gas pre-lair are a lot of money. I'd like to see some work done to the hydra. The speed upgrade is neat, but hydras are still kinda weak. envision change is cool, spore change will make later spires viable vs. fast muta players. spores won't do that much against big flocks, though.
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed boost needs to be researchable.
dunno, unit which completely nullifies zerglings (core zerg unit) and is good even vs. roaches. I mean it's cheaper than roach but got more DPS and is AoE
such retarded non-changes its becoming painfully obvious sc1/bw was dumb luck and we are going to have to baby our devs into making something actually playable
i mean really overlord speed does nothing in that early stage of the game, the only things this opens up is 1. he can show ling speed, cancel after your are forced to bunker up, then switch to OL speed and have perfect information while you have none unless you use our new "buffed scouting options" as a terran player (lol, nty i will never make a reaper) 2. more streamlined drop builds, meaning mech is gonna be a shit ton harder to play, now that you can research speed in hatch tech, you dont' have to clog 2 hatcheries fo research this, meaning zergs will make extra queens for their drop
these are changes that will have unforseen consequences (drops can come with an extra queen, fake drops will be easier to pull off, it will make it very very easy to transition after a bane bust or something like that into standard play)
and then to nerf mutas? but not nerf the unit itself? they decided to change this unit, and knew it could become too powerful, but they decide to not recognize this mistake and instaed buff something else to deal with it? its just convoluted and frustrting as a player to know my dev makes short sighted changes constantly, and then cannot man up and admit they made a mistake, and try to then hide it with additional patching... lose the pride inside imo, otherwise blizz will keep doing this and not listening to anyone but themselves
I think that if the overlord speed is going to never be used before Lair tech anyway, then it's a good change. Because in that case having it be at T1 or T2 is completely arbitrary and then it's probably a good idea to give players more choices from the start. (or maybe it's cooler to have options become available after teching, I don't know)
you would expect tweaks to these units, and blizzard are fixing the game by putting overlord speed before lair, where you would never decide to get overlord speed before speed? just the same as burrow lol. I'm losing hope
The tank is still pitiful with a fantastic 6 hard-counters in HotS, no oracle damage changes, etc....
"Lets ignore the game and fix ZvZ, oh and while we're at it give Zerg an another arbitrary early game buff; last time we destroyed WoL for 1.5 years when we did this, but uhhh... it can't hurt right?"
On February 05 2013 04:47 c0sm0naut wrote: its becoming painfully obvious that BW was dumb luck
On February 05 2013 04:54 DemigodcelpH wrote: The tank is still pitiful with a fantastic 6 hard-counters in HotS, no oracle damage changes...
"Lets ignore the game and fix ZvZ, oh and while we're at it give Zerg an another arbitrary early game buff; last time we destroyed WoL for 1.5 years when we did this, but uhhh... it can't hurt right?"
The overlord speed upgrade at hatch tech isn't going to change shit. Unless zergs are getting speed at 4 minutes, this won't change anything. They will be able to scout at 8 minutes wiht speed overlords, but they should almost be lair by then anyway so they would scout with an overseer.
On February 05 2013 04:57 Alpina wrote: I just don't get why he said ovie speed will be 100 seconds to upgrade, will it be nerfed or he just does not know the correct research time..
must not know the research time, its the only explanation
On February 05 2013 04:19 Tsubbi wrote: im starting to get worried, 4 weeks to release and this is all they come up with? they cant possibly let hellbats go live for example
Hellbats are not that imba. The problem is hellbat drops. I think medivacs speed boost needs to be researchable.
That speed booster ability on medivacs is way too good. They could replace the stupid medivac reactor upgrade on the tech lab with the booster, but to really impact the game they would also have to make you wait for fusion core.
And yes, hellbat drops are hilariously powerful, I've been opening with this in every matchup with great success.
On February 05 2013 03:41 EleanorRIgby wrote: they are making much smaller changes now, i think hots needs a couple more big patches
Most probably afraid of doing such drastic changes when HOTS is so close to release.
If they were to do a big patch, I would love for them to add in Scourge for zerg to deal with all these new air units
They should adopt their former philosophy of releasing a game when the game is done. I highly doubt that they'll be happy to see HotS turn out as Diable 3 did.
Oh thank the lord. ZvZ muta wars were getting ridonculously out of control. I was getting beaten by silvers just because they could amass more mutas than me. And if I get mutas, it's an almost for sure win versus ground. Then I tried going ground versus mutas and they were ridonculously overpowered. Was trying to problem solve it before QQing, but apparently there was beef.
On February 05 2013 04:57 Alpina wrote: I just don't get why he said ovie speed will be 100 seconds to upgrade, will it be nerfed or he just does not know the correct research time..
Yeah I didn't get that either. Why move such a useless buff down to hatch tech and then increase research time by an extra 40 seconds? If anything it sounds like more of a nerf.
Alright, I'm seeing a lot a frustration in this thread aimed at the devs. People are claiming that HotS is not a good game, blah blah blah, you get the picture if you've read the thread.
Here is my question, if HotS is imbalanced and they don't fix these things before launch, what competitive RTS are you going to play? Is there actually a competitor to SC2?
I'm not asking these questions to incite rage or whatever, I'm honestly curious. I really don't follow the video game scene very closely anymore and honestly the only games I play are SC2, elder scroll games, and the occasional racer.
On February 05 2013 05:13 Fuyihken wrote: Alright, I'm seeing a lot a frustration in this thread aimed at the devs. People are claiming that HotS is not a good game, blah blah blah, you get the picture if you've read the thread.
Here is my question, if HotS is imbalanced and they don't fix these things before launch, what competitive RTS are you going to play? Is there actually a competitor to SC2?
I'm not asking these questions to incite rage or whatever, I'm honestly curious. I really don't follow the video game scene very closely anymore and honestly the only games I play are SC2, elder scroll games, and the occasional racer.
More people will probably leave for DOTA2 / League
On February 05 2013 05:13 Fuyihken wrote: Alright, I'm seeing a lot a frustration in this thread aimed at the devs. People are claiming that HotS is not a good game, blah blah blah, you get the picture if you've read the thread.
Here is my question, if HotS is imbalanced and they don't fix these things before launch, what competitive RTS are you going to play? Is there actually a competitor to SC2?
I'm not asking these questions to incite rage or whatever, I'm honestly curious. I really don't follow the video game scene very closely anymore and honestly the only games I play are SC2, elder scroll games, and the occasional racer.
DotA2 and LoL are major competitors despite not being RTS games.
On February 05 2013 04:57 Alpina wrote: I just don't get why he said ovie speed will be 100 seconds to upgrade, will it be nerfed or he just does not know the correct research time..
Yeah I didn't get that either. Why move such a useless buff down to hatch tech and then increase research time by an extra 40 seconds? If anything it sounds like more of a nerf.
If that's indeed the case then it's much more worthy to get Lair + overseer.
Yeah, I play LoL but I get really bored with it quickly compared to SC2. There just isn't as much to do in LoL, not to mention the player community is a stinking sesspool of 13 year olds...
We're realizing the Fungal Growth nerf was ... potentially not enough vs. other units.
I like the sound of this. Make it happen please.
Do you even play HotS?
Yes. Still way too many infestor based comps. It's not back being a support caster yet.
Edit: I just realized you were the guy who started the "Hots Zerg too weak" thread. Let's just say we have different opinions on the matter and move on
On February 05 2013 05:20 Fuyihken wrote: Yeah, I play LoL but I get really bored with it quickly compared to SC2. There just isn't as much to do in LoL, not to mention the player community is a stinking sesspool of 13 year olds...
Is DOTA 2 any good? I haven't tried it yet.
Actually the community is much older (though not as senile as SC2 community), which makes those people even more of a joke. The game itself is really enjoyable though.
On February 05 2013 05:25 c0sm0naut wrote: dota 2 is great
its far more skilled than LoL,
Sold, researching DOTA 2 now
its a lot of fun man, i play it on the side to relax after ladder sessions :p i think its more skilled because of the items, u are punished more for dying, and most casters cant just constantly spam spells with almost infinite regen which imo is a problem with league(and if they can, their spells are designed so where this regen isn't unfair)
I also think that they should make spell cast units have a spell that will change unit type.
For example change a thor to Light Bio so Archons and Hellions will be more effective or change your own light unit to armored so it won't be affected by things like Banelings.
they just continue to talk about balance in such distorted and weird ways. This game needs a complete overhaul, it is so poorly designed and I dont see why they think that releasing anything like this is a good idea.
The more I think about the changes the more I think HOW STUPID AND IGNORANT Blizzard is? Do they even think/watch/look at/discuss anything that is a problem at the current balance level? It's so rediculous if you think about it. Not a single relevant thing (medivacs/hellbats/protoss air/early defense ability of T vZ/etc) gets adressed. If thats the way Blizzard is going to chose than I dont see a future for SC2 .
On February 05 2013 05:20 Fuyihken wrote: Yeah, I play LoL but I get really bored with it quickly compared to SC2. There just isn't as much to do in LoL, not to mention the player community is a stinking sesspool of 13 year olds...
Is DOTA 2 any good? I haven't tried it yet.
DOTA 2 is a better version of league
but fundamentally it's the same. If league doesn't cut it enough for you in the basic parts of it (sitting in lanes last hitting / pushing towers / kill other player s/ team fights) than you probably won't enjoy it.
Back to the topic at hand, I just hope blizzard tries some more radical changes post-launch. I don't want 3 years of +1 range or 5 second more build time for every nerf.
if they listened to the community on everything we'd be in a bad place: taken at 3:10 from blizzards HOTS forums
"Zergs should refuse to play HOTS until they are given a legitimate way to deal with skytoss.
You know there's a terrifying problem with this game when you are ahead of the macro game the entire match and a 200/200 army of hydralisks can't deal with voidrays cost-efficiently. Either buff the hydralisk or nerf the hell out of voidrays.
inb4 "learn to micro against overcharge!!11" We are. Hydralisks are still getting crapped on when not engaging vs overcharge"
"not gonna lie im really considering being done with hots to. Zergs got nothing to keep me interested. Im tired of losing my entire army to a few widow mines, sick of feeling like i have no choice but to mass drones while everyeone else gets to do whatever they please for 10 minutes just to make it to late game so i can get steamrolled by whatever deathball they come up with. Doesnt help that i have an equal value army that gets crushed by things im suppose to counter because of the massive amounts of aoe in this game. I dont see a zerg advantage anymore. I honestly dont think zerg is the most mobile race. Especially now that i have to tip toe around the map cuz i can lose everything to just a few mines. My ability to outnumber them never comes into play because of the aoe in the game and the fact that half my supply is mandatory for economy. I had high hopes for hots and still do but the fact that blizz is completely absent from the beta isnt helping things either."
"I agree with the OP and can not for the life of me understand why zergs pre purchased hots just to make a usless unit we had somewhat viable and one new awsome unit and then the polar opposite for are other unit to replace the hydras as worst unit in game (yea sh).
yea blizz wants to encourage mixed units problam is they only do it to zergs it has always taken 3-4 unit comps to beat one massed unit from the others and that is just poor design. Also only race in game whos early game units become 100% useless latter in the game. not sure what HOTS will look like 6+ months in and cant really care anymore in WOL you have zergs going mass spine/inf/brood after trying all kinds of roach/hydra, ling/bane/muta later they realized the units are just trash (doesnt take a genius just look at the unit stats bw - wol vs the others rines and zealot buffed ling nerfed/hydras super nerfed) then half the SWARM's pop is tied up back home LOL such a bad design."
"As I have stated before, I just gave every zerg a way to always win in ZvP. I cannot even recall losing a ZvP past the 15 minute mark this whole season vs High Masters - Mid GM's. So I please ask for zergs to try this out, I will even make a guide on it soon for TL and these Battlenet forums. But in the meantime don't complain about skytoss because there ARE ways to beat it, you just have to try an entirely different composition than in WoL. Also I have not had to make a single infestor at all in all my games this season." < THIS COMMENT IS IGNORED
"The combination is absurd. It's like marine tank, only stronger, easier to micro, and cheaper to make. I just played a macro ZvT with a diamond Terran (I'm playing and beating high master zerg and protoss by the way) and he literally did nothing except expand slowly, make sensor towers, and widow mine bio.
I threw a lot of different armies at him, every single one he beat with widow mine + bio. All he did was stim, run away, let the widow mines activate, turn around, and kill whatever was left.
Ultralisk clearly aren't the answer. Lings used to be zerg's best choice against bio (pure roach or roach hydra is actually very weak vs. pure stim bio with medivac support), but it only takes 2-4 widow mines to make any number of lings 100% worthless in the engagement. I tried vipers but he simply ran away until blinding cloud was gone (and then all my vipers died to the widow mines lol).
I tried hydralisk, but they can't compete with bio in a straight up fight so you can't get to the widow mines. I've tried infestors before (not in this game), all they do is presplit their army and snipe anything that gets too close. I've tried swarm hosts and died to mass drops (you actually can't move out against bio with swarm hosts unless your opponent is bad/lets you), and yes, I made a lot of spines, I've left 1-2 swarm hosts behind to defend bases, I've tried nydus, and none of it has worked.
I like to think I'm not bad at this game, but when I'm taking games off of grandmaster zergs in ZvZ (long macro games mind you, not 14/14 all ins) and I'm competing with high masters Protoss with relative ease, but I'm losing to diamond terrans who do literally nothing, I think there's a serious problem with balance.
Here's my most recent replay. This is the one that really sent me over the edge. I'm usually pretty reasonable about balance but Terran is just driving me insane lately."
"The problem was that the Tempest took too much of an investment to use for what it was. The cost for them was insane, 300/300, stargate, fleet beacon, 200/200 range upgrade, 6 supply, insanely long build times....
Since Tempests required such a huge investment and had such a slow fire rate all your opponent had to do was attack as soon as they realized you were going tempests and win the game. That's when Protoss players would get mad and say the tempest sucked.
All you needed to do was decrease their cost/ build time. Then everything would have been fine. But you guys decided to make Tempests into a glorified super viking that also shoots ground units.
Now the Tempest is just a boring 1A mass up and win unit with no counter. Please change the Tempest back to how it used to be with long range and a slow fire rate, but with reduced cost and build times."
this is their level of feedback, the forums there are literally 3/4s whine threads about how weak zerg is, or how OP some new unit is. the rest of the threads are helpful suggestions that get taken to troll hell by these players. i really feel like keeping our feedback on HOTS in the teamliquid forums is hurting this game a lot because this is the feedback they are responding to guys... Do you really think the player whining about widow mines is going toe to toe with GM zergs in zvz? fuck no, he's terribad and describing possibly the worst strategy you can do vs mines/bio... Blizzard sees these things and responds, we need to actually post shit there or the game is going to be balanced for idiots again
On February 05 2013 06:12 c0sm0naut wrote: if they listened to the community on everything we'd be in a bad place: taken at 3:10 from blizzards HOTS forums
"Zergs should refuse to play HOTS until they are given a legitimate way to deal with skytoss.
You know there's a terrifying problem with this game when you are ahead of the macro game the entire match and a 200/200 army of hydralisks can't deal with voidrays cost-efficiently. Either buff the hydralisk or nerf the hell out of voidrays.
inb4 "learn to micro against overcharge!!11" We are. Hydralisks are still getting crapped on when not engaging vs overcharge"
"not gonna lie im really considering being done with hots to. Zergs got nothing to keep me interested. Im tired of losing my entire army to a few widow mines, sick of feeling like i have no choice but to mass drones while everyeone else gets to do whatever they please for 10 minutes just to make it to late game so i can get steamrolled by whatever deathball they come up with. Doesnt help that i have an equal value army that gets crushed by things im suppose to counter because of the massive amounts of aoe in this game. I dont see a zerg advantage anymore. I honestly dont think zerg is the most mobile race. Especially now that i have to tip toe around the map cuz i can lose everything to just a few mines. My ability to outnumber them never comes into play because of the aoe in the game and the fact that half my supply is mandatory for economy. I had high hopes for hots and still do but the fact that blizz is completely absent from the beta isnt helping things either."
"I agree with the OP and can not for the life of me understand why zergs pre purchased hots just to make a usless unit we had somewhat viable and one new awsome unit and then the polar opposite for are other unit to replace the hydras as worst unit in game (yea sh).
yea blizz wants to encourage mixed units problam is they only do it to zergs it has always taken 3-4 unit comps to beat one massed unit from the others and that is just poor design. Also only race in game whos early game units become 100% useless latter in the game. not sure what HOTS will look like 6+ months in and cant really care anymore in WOL you have zergs going mass spine/inf/brood after trying all kinds of roach/hydra, ling/bane/muta later they realized the units are just trash (doesnt take a genius just look at the unit stats bw - wol vs the others rines and zealot buffed ling nerfed/hydras super nerfed) then half the SWARM's pop is tied up back home LOL such a bad design."
"As I have stated before, I just gave every zerg a way to always win in ZvP. I cannot even recall losing a ZvP past the 15 minute mark this whole season vs High Masters - Mid GM's. So I please ask for zergs to try this out, I will even make a guide on it soon for TL and these Battlenet forums. But in the meantime don't complain about skytoss because there ARE ways to beat it, you just have to try an entirely different composition than in WoL. Also I have not had to make a single infestor at all in all my games this season." < THIS COMMENT IS IGNORED
"The combination is absurd. It's like marine tank, only stronger, easier to micro, and cheaper to make. I just played a macro ZvT with a diamond Terran (I'm playing and beating high master zerg and protoss by the way) and he literally did nothing except expand slowly, make sensor towers, and widow mine bio.
I threw a lot of different armies at him, every single one he beat with widow mine + bio. All he did was stim, run away, let the widow mines activate, turn around, and kill whatever was left.
Ultralisk clearly aren't the answer. Lings used to be zerg's best choice against bio (pure roach or roach hydra is actually very weak vs. pure stim bio with medivac support), but it only takes 2-4 widow mines to make any number of lings 100% worthless in the engagement. I tried vipers but he simply ran away until blinding cloud was gone (and then all my vipers died to the widow mines lol).
I tried hydralisk, but they can't compete with bio in a straight up fight so you can't get to the widow mines. I've tried infestors before (not in this game), all they do is presplit their army and snipe anything that gets too close. I've tried swarm hosts and died to mass drops (you actually can't move out against bio with swarm hosts unless your opponent is bad/lets you), and yes, I made a lot of spines, I've left 1-2 swarm hosts behind to defend bases, I've tried nydus, and none of it has worked.
I like to think I'm not bad at this game, but when I'm taking games off of grandmaster zergs in ZvZ (long macro games mind you, not 14/14 all ins) and I'm competing with high masters Protoss with relative ease, but I'm losing to diamond terrans who do literally nothing, I think there's a serious problem with balance.
Here's my most recent replay. This is the one that really sent me over the edge. I'm usually pretty reasonable about balance but Terran is just driving me insane lately."
"The problem was that the Tempest took too much of an investment to use for what it was. The cost for them was insane, 300/300, stargate, fleet beacon, 200/200 range upgrade, 6 supply, insanely long build times....
Since Tempests required such a huge investment and had such a slow fire rate all your opponent had to do was attack as soon as they realized you were going tempests and win the game. That's when Protoss players would get mad and say the tempest sucked.
All you needed to do was decrease their cost/ build time. Then everything would have been fine. But you guys decided to make Tempests into a glorified super viking that also shoots ground units.
Now the Tempest is just a boring 1A mass up and win unit with no counter. Please change the Tempest back to how it used to be with long range and a slow fire rate, but with reduced cost and build times."
this is their level of feedback, the forums there are literally 3/4s whine threads about how weak zerg is, or how OP some new unit is. the rest of the threads are helpful suggestions that get taken to troll hell by these players. i really feel like keeping our feedback on HOTS in the teamliquid forums is hurting this game a lot because this is the feedback they are responding to guys... Do you really think the player whining about widow mines is going toe to toe with GM zergs in zvz? fuck no, he's terribad and describing possibly the worst strategy you can do vs mines/bio... Blizzard sees these things and responds, we need to actually post shit there or the game is going to be balanced for idiots again
The zerg who takes games off GM Zergs (long macro games!) and deals with high masters protoss players easily but loses to diamond terrans who build sensor towers and widow mines. Haha this is so funny :D.
On February 05 2013 06:35 Musiq wrote: Wow has Blizzard really lost it? I know for a fact when I switch from BW to SC2 im going to avoid 1v1 and just play 2v2 or something.
No need to switch to SC2 now that SC2BW is complete and has weekly tournaments with 100$ proize pool (starting next week i think with a one time 200$ prize) just in time
On February 05 2013 06:35 Musiq wrote: Wow has Blizzard really lost it? I know for a fact when I switch from BW to SC2 im going to avoid 1v1 and just play 2v2 or something.
No need to switch to SC2 now that SC2BW is complete and has weekly tournaments with 100$ proize pool (starting next week i think with a one time 200$ prize) just in time
Ill have to look that up, the last time I played an SC2BW map it was horribly outdated...
On February 05 2013 06:35 Musiq wrote: Wow has Blizzard really lost it? I know for a fact when I switch from BW to SC2 im going to avoid 1v1 and just play 2v2 or something.
No need to switch to SC2 now that SC2BW is complete and has weekly tournaments with 100$ proize pool (starting next week i think with a one time 200$ prize) just in time
Ill have to look that up, the last time I played an SC2BW map it was horribly outdated...
Its just very recently that they finished it completly (like 3 days ago or sth)
On February 05 2013 03:41 EleanorRIgby wrote: they are making much smaller changes now, i think hots needs a couple more big patches
Most probably afraid of doing such drastic changes when HOTS is so close to release.
If they were to do a big patch, I would love for them to add in Scourge for zerg to deal with all these new air units
They should adopt their former philosophy of releasing a game when the game is done. I highly doubt that they'll be happy to see HotS turn out as Diable 3 did.
Think a better change would be the ability to morph an overseer at tier 1. Not as big of an investment so early in the game and changelings / contaminate might make for an intersting early game tool to prevent timings.
On February 05 2013 05:47 goswser wrote: Medivac/hellbat drops, skytoss, hellbats in general, voidrays...Why can't they actually balance the game instead of making irrelevant changes?
In head on fights Zerg craps on anything Terran that isn't bio because of Vipers. And then Zerg tier 3 craps on bio anyways.
On February 05 2013 05:47 goswser wrote: Medivac/hellbat drops, skytoss, hellbats in general, voidrays...Why can't they actually balance the game instead of making irrelevant changes?
In head on fights Zerg craps on anything Terran that isn't bio because of Vipers. And then Zerg tier 3 craps on bio anyways.
This is incorrect. Bio can actually fight really well vs zerg armies, especially with widow mine support or battle hellion support. Vipers aren't that great vs bio, they are great vs tanks though obviously.
Also the counter to ultras are the same as in WoL (hint marauders) and vs bl/corr/infestor ravens are sick good verse that :D Also ravens are sick good to .
The overlord speed at hatch tech seems really useless. There is NO situation that overlord speed would be better than Ling speed, lair, or burrow. You can just sac an overlord to get most information anyways, and going to Lair lets you morph overseers. I'm really confused by this... nobody is ever going to do this.
I feel like in the ZvZs that I've played (not that many, since I play random), I haven't really run into the Muta vs Muta thing. It seems like I can do the same normal stuff (infestor/roach/hydra) and be successful against mass mutas. Fungals are "harder" to land but not impossible, like most people seem to think. If you hit 4-6 mutas with a Fungal, that's really all you need. Fungal seems fast enough to hit mutas... you just have to lead the target.
Am I completely wrong here? Is higher-level ZvZ really that much harder to land fungals?
I still feel like there's more too be done before its ready like I want a nerd to storm DMG. Spore change won't matter if you have like 30 mutas. Maybe early on it matters but I think they assume you will go hydra and infestor vs a mass Muta.
On February 05 2013 05:47 goswser wrote: Medivac/hellbat drops, skytoss, hellbats in general, voidrays...Why can't they actually balance the game instead of making irrelevant changes?
In head on fights Zerg craps on anything Terran that isn't bio because of Vipers. And then Zerg tier 3 craps on bio anyways.
This is incorrect. Bio can actually fight really well vs zerg armies, especially with widow mine support or battle hellion support. Vipers aren't that great vs bio, they are great vs tanks though obviously.
Also the counter to ultras are the same as in WoL (hint marauders) and vs bl/corr/infestor ravens are sick good verse that :D Also ravens are sick good to .
Also, I thought every race was supposed to have totally broken stuff? So then we can all use our totally broken stuff to win games and be pumped about it.
I would rather people be finding broken stuff in beta that we learn to deal with over time. Remember when we all though marauders were broken? Those days were the good old days.
People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people
I think a drastic change to corruptors (a pretty big buff) so that they trade on part with void rays is needed. It would solve the sky terran problem aswell. Obviously not a too huge buff that would slaughter air play, just a pretty big one so that you can have an answer.
as nice as envision buff is, i only need 30 sec to build a new oracle so it makes not really much sense ... more fix the broken problems with burrowhorsts xD
On February 05 2013 07:46 Karpfen wrote: I think a drastic change to corruptors (a pretty big buff) so that they trade on part with void rays is needed. It would solve the sky terran problem aswell. Obviously not a too huge buff that would slaughter air play, just a pretty big one so that you can have an answer.
jaeh so colossi because absolue useless ^^ sounds right ... are you kidding ?
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote: People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people
Hots is on the right tracks.
I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote: People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people
Hots is on the right tracks.
I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.
i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^
Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote: People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people
Hots is on the right tracks.
I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.
i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^
You play current d2, with a full expansion, which has been out for years and had tons of patches to refine it down to the game you like to play now. My point still stands that it takes a lot of time and normally one expasion before Blizzard games really get into the deep endgame stuff. You don't play unpatch D2, version 1.0.
On February 05 2013 03:59 emythrel wrote: the spore buff is a very clever way to target only zvz. This is the sort of thing they should be trying to find more often when going after a specific matchup for balance.
Not clever enough.
They could make it so abilities deal damage specifically to 1 specific unit than a class of units.
It's possible in the editor.
They could make it so Spores deal bonus damage only to Mutalisk and nothing else (all they need to do is just make Spore damage dealt as a (set) effect with two different (damage) effects, one that deals normal damage against all units with a validator that excludes Mutalisks, and another that targets only mutalisks, with a validator that checks for mutalisks).
They could then add an icon on the Spore that lists this. Alternatively they could give a behavior (with the combat section set to only take effect from spores) to Mutalisk that makes it so they take more damage from spores.
Yeah it's may be weird at first but it'd be a really easy way to balance specific match ups.
As for lore reasons reasons?
They could think of creative names for abilities - Anti Mutalisk Spores (okay that's not a creative name but you get the point >.>).
Edit - This post isn't talking about the change but what Blizzard could do in the future to balance specific match ups (make things target specific units directly instead of a class of units like biological, mechanical, etc).
On February 05 2013 08:03 Dirkinity wrote: Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.
That is your problem because you don't like them, Widow Mine is damn strong unit right now. MaruPrime beat Sen yesterday pretty much with just Widow Mines. He used Tanks and Hellbats, but 70% of his army were Widow Mines, literally.
Both Hellbats and Widow Mines are great units, and great addition to the Terran, and both can be used in the late game against Zerg, but Widow Mines aren't as good vs. Protoss.
On February 05 2013 07:36 RuneZerg wrote: Swarm Host anyone? defines useless
Yeah ok, how about " Change unit movement and dynamic", "lower income per bases to encourage more mining bases" and " raise supply limit so that people aren't maxed out after 11 min"?
These would be REAL changes to try, not puting overlord speed at tier 1. Do they really think they have a finished product that requires a little tweaking? Seriously?
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote: People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people
Hots is on the right tracks.
I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.
i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^
You play current d2, with a full expansion, which has been out for years and had tons of patches to refine it down to the game you like to play now. My point still stands that it takes a lot of time and normally one expasion before Blizzard games really get into the deep endgame stuff. You don't play unpatch D2, version 1.0.
Very true. I also quit diablo 3 after 3-4 weeks of playing back in May-June 2012 because of how unplayable the game was back then. I have recently come back to it and it is almost a different game. Enormous improvements.
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote: People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people
Hots is on the right tracks.
I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.
i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^
You play current d2, with a full expansion, which has been out for years and had tons of patches to refine it down to the game you like to play now. My point still stands that it takes a lot of time and normally one expasion before Blizzard games really get into the deep endgame stuff. You don't play unpatch D2, version 1.0.
How is D3 improved? I played it for the first 3 months and couldn't get over how boring and repetitive it was. (Not trying to get off track)
I honestly wish I could understand David Kim's thought process on making overlord speed hatch tech... It would've been neat pre-WoL Ovie speed buff but now I don't see the point since I can get all my scouting done with just regular slow overlords. Of all the issues with HotS I don't see how overlord speed is an issue in the slightest.
I can´t believe that HotS will turn out like this. I'm so disappointed...
Swarm Hosts - Useless and silly. Bad concept. Viper - Blinding Cloud is OK but Abduct is terrible. Is this unit interesting enough ??
This is Heart Of the Swarm, Zerg deserved Better.
Oracle - From an unit that used to force field minerals to a worker lines exterminator. Did Blizzard ever had a plan for this unit? Tempest - Boring, uninteresting and uninspired unit. A Brood Lord for Toss and the 12nd way to destroy Siege tanks. Didn´t Blizzard wanted to promote mech play? MS Core - Another boring and conceptually weak unit. Blizzard wants it to do everything and in reality it does almost nothing.
Widow Mines - Mines that attack air and ground !!!! Mines that are reusable !!! What are these supposed to do?? Counter Mutas ?? How about a something like Goliaths ! Hellbat - Seriously Blizzard???? Hellbats can be healed by Medivacs !!! Why not make Medivacs heal Tanks, Vikings in ground mode, Thors and Hellions ??? Because it's silly that's why. If you want them to be healed by Medivacs bring Firebats back.
I wish Blizzard was brave enough to make big changes and acknowledge that they're heading in the wrong direction. I wish Blizzard was brave enough to adopt units from BW if many of their ideas for HotS are clearly inferior. I wish Blizzard postponed the release because HotS multiplayer is just not looking good right now.
its so disappointing. there are so many problems with zerg and kim decides to nerf infestor even more so there is even less of an answer to mass air T/P play and now he buffs overlordspeed. YAY. thats really what zerg needs right now. zerg doesnt need better hydras, SH, nydus, burrowmovement, ovidrop or mutas being viable ZvT or BLs being viable at all. zerg also doesnt need less boring corruption or contaminate and also doesnt need any answer to mass air play. /sarcasm off.
Someone who really follows BW explain to me, how do the pros beat mass mutas in ZvZ in Brood War? That strategy seems like a top candidate for Blizzard to help port over, especially since BW Zerg and SC2 Zerg have the most similar units of all the races. The SC2 hydralisks, as maligned as they are, are actually far superior to the BW hydralisks against mutas. They have half the hp per cost, but triple the DPS and greater range, and they also move much faster. (on creep, but against mutas that's all that matters)
On February 05 2013 08:43 Xequecal wrote: Someone who really follows BW explain to me, how do the pros beat mass mutas in ZvZ in Brood War? That strategy seems like a top candidate for Blizzard to help port over, especially since BW Zerg and SC2 Zerg have the most similar units of all the races. The SC2 hydralisks, as maligned as they are, are actually far superior to the BW hydralisks against mutas. They have half the hp per cost, but triple the DPS and greater range, and they also move much faster. (on creep, but against mutas that's all that matters)
they dont, bw is tech to muta +scourge every game in zvz
On February 05 2013 06:54 Prime Directive wrote: Think a better change would be the ability to morph an overseer at tier 1. Not as big of an investment so early in the game and changelings / contaminate might make for an intersting early game tool to prevent timings.
Contaminate on the cybernetics core researching warpgates is a free win for Zerg, every time.
I don't play ZvZ so this patch is a bit null and void aside from the fact that zergs will be able to just run overlords through your base now, at anytime, without any reasoning behind it, and still be safe.
arghh complete moron david kim. Why introduce all these ugly fixes to 'solve' the muta problem... Muta's were fine in WoL.. usable in all matchups and but mostly a suprise tactic except perhaps TvZ. Then in HotS they add two stupid changes: widow mine that hits air (why really??) and protoss cannon that hits air (again why??). They try to 'solve' the reduced viability of muta's by buffing it.. Then they buff phoenix range to respond to this again.. And now they try to buff spores because muta's are too strong..
It's all rediculous changes to start with moving in a circle, they should have just retained old muta functionality. Small fungal nerf but a hydra buff would have been fine to keep them in check for ZvZ..
The oracle needs more vision. 60 seconds of detection, that's it? Where's the maphack and/or permanent detection? God forbid I want to play as greedy and reckless as possible and I might have to make an observer at some point in the game. I'm trying to play some skytoss, and I just don't think it would be right if there were any conceivable counters other than to out skytoss me.
Envision is really the spell that has to be enhanced. Who uses revelation? How about lowering the cost of energy for that or altering that in some way? I think it's cool that sky toss is real good like, too bad it's probably worse than watching bl/infestor every game. I can't imagine sair/reaver or any BW strat being this god awful to watch.
These changes are generally all fine by themselves.. but none of the core issues are touched =/
My personal dream patch will be something along these lines..
Protoss -MSC back to being attached to Nexus, has detection spell. -Blink research nerf reverted back (due to above change). -Oracles changed, too much of an all or nothing unit at this point. -Carrier build time reduced (long overdue). -Stalker AA damage buffed slightly (Toss has too much trouble dealing with the improved mutas and medivacs imo).
Zerg -Hive tech upgrade for Hydralisks AA and/or HP boost. -Swarmhosts, this is a tough unit to balance atm, a good amount of people think this is OP, while there are others that argue its a completely useless unit. Personally I'd like to see a lower dps to the locusts but increase their life or something. -Queen ground attack range reduced by 1 (so that early TvZ pressure is slightly more effective again, I don't like the direction that they are taking to encourage massive turtle macro games).
Terran -Siege mode needs research again (literally nobody ever asked for this change). -Siege tank late game upgrade (increase damage or perhaps an upgrade that reduces supply cost of unit to 2 or something). -Medivac speed boost either requires a research or has some drawback (for instance some bnet people suggested that after you use it you cannot unload units for X duration of time after the booster). -Hellbats, no longer considered bio, cannot be healed by medivac (seriously, this makes no f'ing sense..how can a unit property transform between mech/bio???) -Widow mines, burrow time increased slightly, this unit should be used strategically in defensive locations, not a gimmicky offensive unit. Supply cost reduced to 1; and whatever changes it needs to be fair game in TvZ.
There's probably a lot more that needs to be changed.. and now that I think about it, gosh, there's so much they need to work on with just a month less on the release.. For those people that think there's no need to rush a more polished game at release because D3 has shown that you can have a game that can improve a ton over time (which it has), I humbly disagree that that is a good approach. Yes there has been players that have returned for D3 with the recent patches, but its a fraction of the initial population that are lost and will never come back again.
On February 05 2013 08:37 Decendos wrote: its so disappointing. there are so many problems with zerg and kim decides to nerf infestor even more so there is even less of an answer to mass air T/P play and now he buffs overlordspeed. YAY. thats really what zerg needs right now. zerg doesnt need better hydras, SH, nydus, burrowmovement, ovidrop or mutas being viable ZvT or BLs being viable at all. zerg also doesnt need less boring corruption or contaminate and also doesnt need any answer to mass air play. /sarcasm off.
playing T since today. so much more fun.
There's really no room for you to be complaining so extensively like that considering that Zerg is generally agreed upon, even by some top Zerg players, to be the 2nd strongest race in HotS. Infestors are still much too strong of a catch-all kill-everything unit to be considered a support caster. Viper unit combinations counters all of Terran air and mech (anything that isn't bio), though it's not the same versus skytoss because Tempests have more range than the siege tank for some reason.
I can't see the need for the overlord speed buff move to tier 1. It's not like they can't scout before it; they already have the earliest flying scouts that require little to no investment.
On February 05 2013 08:03 Dirkinity wrote: Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.
That is your problem because you don't like them, Widow Mine is damn strong unit right now. MaruPrime beat Sen yesterday pretty much with just Widow Mines. He used Tanks and Hellbats, but 70% of his army were Widow Mines, literally.
Both Hellbats and Widow Mines are great units, and great addition to the Terran, and both can be used in the late game against Zerg, but Widow Mines aren't as good vs. Protoss.
I'm sure MaruPrime can beat any Zerg, regardless of Widow Mines.
Widow Mines can hit that small timing window before detection and/or lots of units. It fires at cloaked units as well, so they are great vs DT/Banshee openers. The drawback is that it requires burrow micro, easy defuseable and it has a very slow rate of fire. Great unit for both offense and defense.
On February 05 2013 09:26 i)awn wrote: I can't see the need for the overlord speed buff move to tier 1. It's not like they can't scout before it; they already have the earliest flying scouts that require little to no investment.
It is probably so zerg can get drop upgrade earlier and drop SH into enemy bases :D
HotS so far looks like crap and MP looks more stupid then WoL. I was hoping with HotS Blizzard would make some real changes and fixes and not do nothing while introducing stupid new units...
On February 05 2013 08:03 Dirkinity wrote: Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.
That is your problem because you don't like them, Widow Mine is damn strong unit right now. MaruPrime beat Sen yesterday pretty much with just Widow Mines. He used Tanks and Hellbats, but 70% of his army were Widow Mines, literally.
Both Hellbats and Widow Mines are great units, and great addition to the Terran, and both can be used in the late game against Zerg, but Widow Mines aren't as good vs. Protoss.
On February 05 2013 07:36 RuneZerg wrote: Swarm Host anyone? defines useless
I'm sure MaruPrime can beat any Zerg, regardless of Widow Mines.
Widow Mines can hit that small timing window before detection and/or lots of units. It fires at cloaked units as well, so they are great vs DT/Banshee openers. The drawback is that it requires burrow micro, easy defuseable and it has a very slow rate of fire. Great unit for both offense and defense.
Widow Mines no longer hit cloaked units as of the beta balance update #8.
I don't think it's fair to judge HoTS as bad just yet, and I think it definitely has promise.
That being said, I'm always pretty surprised by the lack of creativity from SC2's game design department. The spore/muta thing is a great example of this. Surely there could've been some investigation into hydra buffs, or a new hydra upgrade that lets them deal with air better (which would actually maybe help against late game mass air protoss)?
I'm not a game designer, but I see ideas like this all the time of forums where people come up with interesting concepts off the top of their heads. Meanwhile the best Blizzard can do is "make spore crawlers fight mutas better".
On February 05 2013 09:26 i)awn wrote: I can't see the need for the overlord speed buff move to tier 1. It's not like they can't scout before it; they already have the earliest flying scouts that require little to no investment.
Yeah, I kind of agree. I feel like this is a change that's more whimsical than actually addressing problems in the gameplay. They might be experimenting, but it still feels a bit redundant. Zerg might be known as the reactive race, but we're not that reactive. It's good to be pro-active every once in awhile.
Also, to the guy who suggested the overseer at hatchery change, imagine just changing over to an overseer withyour first 50 gas. Way too OP methinks.
tbh i would like more to see a hydra buff vs bio or sth along those lines, if we are lucky we might see sth like both sides changing their army compositions during the game in tvz (which would be hard to balance though). Spores are only a temporary solution against muta and everybody always knew it. The only way to fix this was to give spores aoe. Wont stop muta from taking the entire map until they get broods in zvz though.
ok Blizz the game is largely unfinished. We need more drastical changes, and by "drastical" it's not fucking remove siege upgrade requirement or anything that makes the game easier
I hope there's going to be more with the next patch. Spore changes seems silly, overlord speed is w/e. I'm worried he didn't mention anything else like medivac boost or hellbats ;-; With a month until release it's looking less likely they will do anything drastic which is kinda needed > <
well thank God i did not pre-order HOTS. Why they won't fix nothing in this game that needs to be fixed is a mystery beyond me. I'll say this much. If they show LOTV at the next blizzcon i'm going to be super pissed off at them.
On February 05 2013 09:26 i)awn wrote: I can't see the need for the overlord speed buff move to tier 1. It's not like they can't scout before it; they already have the earliest flying scouts that require little to no investment.
It is probably so zerg can get drop upgrade earlier and drop SH into enemy bases :D
Can't you research speed and drop at the same time anyway? This won't make it come earlier.
On February 05 2013 10:15 Blackfeather wrote: tbh i would like more to see a hydra buff vs bio or sth along those lines, if we are lucky we might see sth like both sides changing their army compositions during the game in tvz (which would be hard to balance though). Spores are only a temporary solution against muta and everybody always knew it. The only way to fix this was to give spores aoe. Wont stop muta from taking the entire map until they get broods in zvz though.
Sadly hydra just cant be viable against terran without skewering PvZ. Even in BW hydras are pretty bad vs bio but were gods in PvZ, They already are doing pretty good vs mech, I am afraid the hydras cant really be buff too much anymore.
I really dont see why people are hating on the hellbat so much. drops are easily shut down with a turret/spore/cannon in each mineral line, if hellbats cant be dropped ON the worker line they have no chance to catch running workers. They seem fine mid-lategame as well, T needed a unit that could actually soak damage. They are still WAY less explosive than bling drops.
Personally the reason I think they are scared to buff hydras is roachs are so damn good. atm roach/ultra hydra is good in ZvT, esp when defilers come into play. If they buff hydras it could possibly break the MU. If they buff the hydra health they basically become an all around unit rather than the intended "squishy massive dps, you better run away when your front line is gone" unit. I have no insight to ZvP.
On February 05 2013 10:15 Blackfeather wrote: tbh i would like more to see a hydra buff vs bio or sth along those lines, if we are lucky we might see sth like both sides changing their army compositions during the game in tvz (which would be hard to balance though). Spores are only a temporary solution against muta and everybody always knew it. The only way to fix this was to give spores aoe. Wont stop muta from taking the entire map until they get broods in zvz though.
Sadly hydra just cant be viable against terran without skewering PvZ. Even in BW hydras are pretty bad vs bio but were gods in PvZ, They already are doing pretty good vs mech, I am afraid the hydras cant really be buff too much anymore.
Yeah, I don't really get the buff hydra movement. Didn't was already have a unit that was really good at dealing with both ground and air that zergs massed all the time to solve all problem? I am ok with the hydra having a few rolls it can fill and not being the solution to all problems.
On February 05 2013 03:58 Aquila- wrote: What scouting buffs did terran get? Reaper?? Terran by now has the worst or rather the most expensive scouting options, especially in tvp it is a guessing game what allin the protoss is gonna do. Also where is the much needed nerf to oracles?
Terran already has the best scouting tool in the game. Zerg needed one badly. Oracles are fine and you say T has the worst scouting? LOL
Blizzard spending to much time trying to fix specific issues(zvz mutas) Instead of just trying to come up with fun, interesting, micro challenging changes and then letting the players figure out some balance.
They are just patching themselves in a circle at this point which is leading to dumb changes.
Looking back at the past few patches, they've made a series of very bad moves, and now they're building on a horrible foundation. Those Muta changes are the best example of that. First they add a ton of "Muta killers" for no reason, then they buff Mutas, they then buff "Muta killers" more... and now they keep adding more stuff to deal with a problem they created for no reason.
I see a pretty obvious solution to the Muta problem: back to WoL Mutas, Mines can't shoot up, Phoenix back to WoL stats. The thing they're unwilling to do is say: ok, we made a mistake, let's revert those changes.
And Mutas are just an example. The fungal changes were a bad move. The tank buff was a bad move. The oracle change was a bad move (what the hell is that unit supposed to be anyway? a spellcaster? just a normal fighting air to ground unit? why does it even need energy?). And then there are some other issues, like Mines, which don't really work as intended, useless in ZvP where they were supposed to make mech viable, and stupidly strong in ZvT.
I can live with a bad patch, like the horrible patch 11. But after a month, they've kept trying to work around the issues they created in that patch, further breaking the game. The first step should be to revert some of the bad moves they made.
So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
I don't think Blizzard failed hard but just seems like they need to take a deep breath and take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward. Right now they are on a path of making all upgrades more accessible or changing damages to solve problems which will create a new set of problems.
They also just lack total creativity. Same issue with Diablo 3. Blizzard use to come up with cool ideas as an industry leader now they are getting lapped by indi gaming companies with no budget.
The fact they can't just make the most obvious change of making fungal reduce movement 50% and buff hydras slightly which would probably make 99% of people have faith in blizzard again is a shame.
I think blizzard will fail hard if they listen to people and nerf hellbats. Mech already sucks in every match-up except for tvt (its actually terrible vs zerg with vipers now). A unit like the hellbat is needed so it doesn't become just a complete joke. Again the problem is with hellbat drops, just remove the speed bost on the medivac, problem solved.
I really like the Oracle buff! I think it gives Protoss a lot of potential in all forms of defending early cloak harrasment. The overlord speed will allow Zergs to use doom drops more often? I think that's ok!
Or they can change caduceus reactor into a speed boost upgrade for builds that commit to drop play. Blizzard has plenty of options from a balance perspective, and I'd prefer that they make the right change instead of hotfixing units to just please the whiners.
I think everyone posting about how this will effect the(ir) game needs to remember, blizzard doesn't care about you. They are only considering the top .01% (pros) and the bottom 10% (the new comers).
IMO it would be much more interesting for them to put drop tech at the hatchery and leave overlord speed at the lair. Also instead of buffing the spore buff the hydra. Zerg needs a good AA and the spore buff doesn't really do anything except preventing light muta aggression in zvz.
i understand why they are trying to "solve" the zvz muta problem, tbh i really like mutas the way they are now in every mu except for zvz. I also like the whole mid(!)game airtoss vs spire/hydra zerg pvz dynamic, changing it back would be bad imho. I hope they will go for sth like a hydra dmg buff against bio and a cheap stalker dmg (circle of twilight) upgrade against bio, or some kind of aa-splash for zerg. What i wouldnt like to see would be nerfs to oracles, medivacs and mutas. I like that these units are played and i like the way these units are played, it's refreshing to see harassment all the time instead of deathball turtle against deathball turtle. Yes, it's hard to shut down, no it's not imbalanced because you can reduce the damage and harass back.
On February 05 2013 12:01 flyingnimbus wrote: Or they can change caduceus reactor into a speed boost upgrade for builds that commit to drop play. Blizzard has plenty of options from a balance perspective, and I'd prefer that they make the right change instead of hotfixing units to just please the whiners.
to be honest after having looked into a lot of different rts, i dont like the whole "commit to sth" idea. It creates different playstyles and choices on paper, but the result is only that most of the additional choices are never made and the cool and creative idea will never be used, because they are all-in and not found out.
On February 05 2013 12:01 flyingnimbus wrote: Or they can change caduceus reactor into a speed boost upgrade for builds that commit to drop play. Blizzard has plenty of options from a balance perspective, and I'd prefer that they make the right change instead of hotfixing units to just please the whiners.
Yeah, can't imagine why boost hasn't been turned into an upgrade yet. It's super powerful.
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
Let's be honest here. Whenever they make patch notes and say that no matter what the notes go through except like one time. 9 times out of 10 what they say is what they are doing this week. They are not going to nerf sky toss and they aren't going to nerf medivac speed in anyway as of right now.
On February 05 2013 11:20 MilesTeg wrote: Seriously, this patch is just heart breaking.
Looking back at the past few patches, they've made a series of very bad moves, and now they're building on a horrible foundation. Those Muta changes are the best example of that. First they add a ton of "Muta killers" for no reason, then they buff Mutas, they then buff "Muta killers" more... and now they keep adding more stuff to deal with a problem they created for no reason.
I see a pretty obvious solution to the Muta problem: back to WoL Mutas, Mines can't shoot up, Phoenix back to WoL stats. The thing they're unwilling to do is say: ok, we made a mistake, let's revert those changes.
And Mutas are just an example. The fungal changes were a bad move. The tank buff was a bad move. The oracle change was a bad move (what the hell is that unit supposed to be anyway? a spellcaster? just a normal fighting air to ground unit? why does it even need energy?). And then there are some other issues, like Mines, which don't really work as intended, useless in ZvP where they were supposed to make mech viable, and stupidly strong in ZvT.
I can live with a bad patch, like the horrible patch 11. But after a month, they've kept trying to work around the issues they created in that patch, further breaking the game. The first step should be to revert some of the bad moves they made.
This is what it all comes down to. They crapped the bed on patch 11 and have been trying to fix it ever since. The super mutas broke a ton of stuff and now they have been trying to fix it when it would have been way simpler to just put mutas back at their old stats and buff zerg elsewhere. All they have been doing with the last few patches is nitpicky crap and adding stuff to Zerg that lets them do stupid one-off early game all-ins but doesn't solve the problem of them dealing with Protoss air.
It's such a shame because they were going in such a great direction with patch 10.
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. This next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that we ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
I wish that, instead of trying to bring muta play into line with ground-based ZvZ play, they would just try and make it interesting instead.
I think that Blizzard did a good job transferring the frantic micro of BW muta-scourge into SC2's ling-baneling, but other than that, ZvZ isn't a very micro-intensive matchup (instead favoring concaves and multitasking, neither of which are quite as thrilling to watch or play as ling-bane). Muta vs. muta in SC2 is especially dull, in which battles are already decided when they're begun, by virtue of whoever has more mutalisks or upgrades: simply put, there's no way for a player with less mutas to win, in contrast to BW ZvZ or SC2 ling-bane (where razor-sharp micro can seize a win even against overwhelming odds).
While it's tough to come up with a solution that doesn't break mutas in other matchups, I think it's something that needs to be done. The ZvZ midgame needs micro.
Really, I think bringing scourge back would be a good solution. But, that's asking too much of Blizzard at this point, as it seems their design for HotS is already set in stone. I never understood why they'd rather half-assedly copycat BW game ideas (Lurkers->Swarm Hosts, Spider Mines->Widow Mines, Arbiters->Warp-in, etc.) instead of just implementing them directly.
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. Thie ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that ws. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
you remind me of a conversation i had with a friend of mine who worked at Best Buy and we were talking about E-sports and everything in general. Well when we started talking about Starcraft 2. I told him that Blizzard is royally fucking the game up with their stupid bullshit(I have been keeping up with all the patch notes since I took some time off just to see what's going to happen) I told him that Blizzard will see a small increase in viewers but after everything is back to the same old metagame their viewer count is going to go south. And no this is not a 'SC2 dying or E-Sports is screwed' post.
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. Thie ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that ws. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
you remind me of a conversation i had with a friend of mine who worked at Best Buy and we were talking about E-sports and everything in general. Well when we started talking about Starcraft 2. I told him that Blizzard is royally fucking the game up with their stupid bullshit(I have been keeping up with all the patch notes since I took some time off just to see what's going to happen) I told him that Blizzard will see a small increase in viewers but after everything is back to the same old metagame their viewer count is going to go south. And no this is not a 'SC2 dying or E-Sports is screwed' post.
I don't even have words....I was mocking people like you....I can't. God damn it.
I like the changes. I like how much more dominant harass is in HotS, so I'm glad they're trying to maintain that for the most part--this is a good way make ZvZ less of a mutafest while leaving mutas still effective in other matchups.
On February 05 2013 12:02 Unsane wrote: I think everyone posting about how this will effect the(ir) game needs to remember, blizzard doesn't care about you. They are only considering the top .01% (pros) and the bottom 10% (the new comers).
If they cared about those, they would have made the game something else than a deathball vs deathball game.
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
i agree that they should make some bigger changes overall (more bases needed, toss not relying on sentrys, etc), but no sc2 wont die out, even with this patch and there will be many great games played even with this current state of the game.. it could be better and hell yeah i would like that, but you are too pessimistic i think.
"riot should make an rts"
you think they would do it better?? nah they wouldnt, they would make it even easier to play and the actual balance wouldnt be better at all
If they really want to discourage mutas in ZvZ, just make Spores do splash damage. It's more natural than the artifically tacked on bonus damage to bio, and it doesn't really affect the other matchups that much.
On February 05 2013 14:07 RaiKageRyu wrote: If they really want to discourage mutas in ZvZ, just make Spores do splash damage. It's more natural than the artifically tacked on bonus damage to bio, and it doesn't really affect the other matchups that much.
This has an impact on other matchups now.. making them do extra vs bio does not.
On February 05 2013 14:07 RaiKageRyu wrote: If they really want to discourage mutas in ZvZ, just make Spores do splash damage. It's more natural than the artifically tacked on bonus damage to bio, and it doesn't really affect the other matchups that much.
you actually make a very interesting suggestion. I like the idea of it, wouldn't mind seeing it in a patch to see how it would go. If it's dumb they can just remove it later... I feel like Blizzard is missing their chance to test things like this. Such a shame
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
i agree that they should make some bigger changes overall (more bases needed, toss not relying on sentrys, etc), but no sc2 wont die out, even with this patch and there will be many great games played even with this current state of the game.. it could be better and hell yeah i would like that, but you are too pessimistic i think.
"riot should make an rts"
you think they would do it better?? nah they wouldnt, they would make it even easier to play and the actual balance wouldnt be better at all
Yes I think they would do better. Blizzard has clearly no idea what they are doing right now. It's just that the general crowd gives them so much sympathy because we really wanted the new Starcraft. Just like people were fooled into Diablo 3 because they wanted the new Diablo.
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. Thie ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that ws. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
you remind me of a conversation i had with a friend of mine who worked at Best Buy and we were talking about E-sports and everything in general. Well when we started talking about Starcraft 2. I told him that Blizzard is royally fucking the game up with their stupid bullshit(I have been keeping up with all the patch notes since I took some time off just to see what's going to happen) I told him that Blizzard will see a small increase in viewers but after everything is back to the same old metagame their viewer count is going to go south. And no this is not a 'SC2 dying or E-Sports is screwed' post.
I don't even have words....I was mocking people like you....I can't. God damn it.
He is right though, the viewership spiked for 3 weeks after HotS beta was opened up and now its at no-man's land. There's nothing left to care about. People got super excited about the kespa koreans coming along and nothing happened. There are still a ton of tournaments to watch but zero reason to watch them.
The game has stabilized on shitty 3 base turtle play, 2 base allins are rare, and 1 base allins non-existent outside mirrors. No amount of patches will fix this, it was bound to end up this way from the beginning just from the way the game was designed. Only a completely overhaul of the game will fix this, a less complete solution, and more likely to happen is the map makers will fix the game. Just as they did before when we were forced to play awful blizzard maps like Steppes of War. We will start to see maps with ridiculously choked pathways to emulate broodwar's inefficient pathing, more spread out bases, and less mineral patches and gas at each base. The current kespa maps are already moving in this direction.
And if this doesn't happen, its been a fun ride. SC2 will be forced to stay on life support until after Blizzard releases Legacy of the Void. They need to keep the illusion that it has a successful pro-scene until they are done milking the series.
The real question is, who will dictate the future of the franchise, Blizzard? or the Community?
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. Thie ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that ws. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
you remind me of a conversation i had with a friend of mine who worked at Best Buy and we were talking about E-sports and everything in general. Well when we started talking about Starcraft 2. I told him that Blizzard is royally fucking the game up with their stupid bullshit(I have been keeping up with all the patch notes since I took some time off just to see what's going to happen) I told him that Blizzard will see a small increase in viewers but after everything is back to the same old metagame their viewer count is going to go south. And no this is not a 'SC2 dying or E-Sports is screwed' post.
I don't even have words....I was mocking people like you....I can't. God damn it.
He is right though, the viewership spiked for 3 weeks after HotS beta was opened up and now its at no-man's land. There's nothing left to care about. People got super excited about the kespa koreans coming along and nothing happened. There are still a ton of tournaments to watch but zero reason to watch them.
The game has stabilized on shitty 3 base turtle play, 2 base allins are rare, and 1 base allins non-existent outside mirrors. No amount of patches will fix this, it was bound to end up this way from the beginning just from the way the game was designed. Only a completely overhaul of the game will fix this, a less complete solution, and more likely to happen is the map makers will fix the game. Just as they did before when we were forced to play awful blizzard maps like Steppes of War. We will start to see maps with ridiculously choked pathways to emulate broodwar's inefficient pathing, more spread out bases, and less mineral patches and gas at each base. The current kespa maps are already moving in this direction.
And if this doesn't happen, its been a fun ride. SC2 will be forced to stay on life support until after Blizzard releases Legacy of the Void. They need to keep the illusion that it has a successful pro-scene until they are done milking the series.
The real question is, who will dictate the future of the franchise, Blizzard? or the Community?
Even though Brood War has had a pretty stagnant metagame in the past years, it is the skill of the player that dictates the winner. SC2 has a lower skill ceiling, therefore the outcomes are way more volatile (no bonjwas, no legacies), and this is one of the problem of the game.
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
i agree that they should make some bigger changes overall (more bases needed, toss not relying on sentrys, etc), but no sc2 wont die out, even with this patch and there will be many great games played even with this current state of the game.. it could be better and hell yeah i would like that, but you are too pessimistic i think.
"riot should make an rts"
you think they would do it better?? nah they wouldnt, they would make it even easier to play and the actual balance wouldnt be better at all
Yes I think they would do better. Blizzard has clearly no idea what they are doing right now. It's just that the general crowd gives them so much sympathy because we really wanted the new Starcraft. Just like people were fooled into Diablo 3 because they wanted the new Diablo.
(SC2 is nowhere as bad as D3 though)
i dont want to start a discussion about lol, but i dont think riot would take the good parts about broodwar (they are pretty all parts of why broodwar is more difficult!) and make a game with these. they didnt do that with lol (dota), so i wonder why you would think they would make the new broodwar?! and maybe MAYBE blizzard will change some more big things even after release, well at least i hope so^^
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
i agree that they should make some bigger changes overall (more bases needed, toss not relying on sentrys, etc), but no sc2 wont die out, even with this patch and there will be many great games played even with this current state of the game.. it could be better and hell yeah i would like that, but you are too pessimistic i think.
"riot should make an rts"
you think they would do it better?? nah they wouldnt, they would make it even easier to play and the actual balance wouldnt be better at all
Yes I think they would do better. Blizzard has clearly no idea what they are doing right now. It's just that the general crowd gives them so much sympathy because we really wanted the new Starcraft. Just like people were fooled into Diablo 3 because they wanted the new Diablo.
(SC2 is nowhere as bad as D3 though)
i dont want to start a discussion about lol, but i dont think riot would take the good parts about brrodwar (they are pretty all parts of why broodwar is more difficult!) and make a game with these. they didnt do that with lol (dota), so i wonder why you would think they would make the new broodwar?! and maybe MAYBE blizzard will change some more big things even after release, well at least i hope so^^
Although I agree that DoTA2 is a more complexe game than LoL, it is laughable to think it is more succesful or "more crowd pleasing".
LoL has totally nailed it, for the MoBA genre. And I do think Riot would actually know that they cannot do the same concept with the RTS genre and win the "e-sports" war.
Edit: This was totally off-topic though, let's not talk about something else than this useless patch
I've always been a staunch Blizzard supporter but as a permanent zerg player I remember how long it took in WOL for zerg to be buffed (which ended up ultimately being too much) and I start to worry that the same thing is going to happen with HOTS, Which is funny since it's the zerg expansion and it's looking like its going to be the weakest race upon release...at least the way it's going. I hope I'm wrong but I have a prediction...
Prediction: Blizzard will nerf or revert the mutalisk (because it's being used too much in all matchups) before it fixes toss and terran sky dominance, not realizing that the mutalisk is the only thing propping up the matchup stats essentially breaking zerg until they realize they needed to fix the other issues a long time ago.
one Mutalisk (9 damage) attacking Spore (1 armor) deals 8 damage every attack. Divide this by the attack cooldown to get your DPS of 5.2
ten mutas attacking one spore crawler deal 52 damage each second, taking it a total of 7.69 seconds to kill one spore
in this time, the spore obviously fights back. It will deal 30 damage each attack, with an attack cooldown of .8608. The DPS of the spore will be 34.85. During the 7.69 seconds it takes to kill a spore, it will deal 267.99 damage to the flock of mutalisks.
This is enough DPS to have just one spore crawler (with nothing else attacking the mutas) kill two whole mutalisks in the time. Both Mutas and spores have the minor zerg regen but I don't think it changes the outcome.
So, one spore (75 minerals + 50 for drone = 125) kills 2 mutas (200/200). This doesn't take into account a spore + queen, a spore + queen and transfusions, or multiple spores.
I think a buff to the hydralisk would be a better option to shutting down mass mutas.
Well spore crawlers do have a significant range advantage as well, and it is not like if the opponent goes muta you want to only build 1 spore...
Once again they do not want to admit to making stupid changes in the first place and now try convoluted and ugly ways around that. 7 range Phoenixes with super Mutas and suuuper spores..
Not even going to comment on mech anymore as it's clear to me they are either unwilling or incapable to do anything about it.
Also, 37 days until official HotS release! Can't wait myself. Hopefully the game will be decently balanced (I expect a day 1 patch). Here's to another 3 years
On February 05 2013 04:02 nomyx wrote: Okay, so I just did some math.
Spore crawler:
Requires spawning pool
400 HP 1 armor
30 damage
Mutalisk:
Requires spire
100/100
120 HP
9 damage, 5.9 DPS
one Mutalisk (9 damage) attacking Spore (1 armor) deals 8 damage every attack. Divide this by the attack cooldown to get your DPS of 5.2
ten mutas attacking one spore crawler deal 52 damage each second, taking it a total of 7.69 seconds to kill one spore
in this time, the spore obviously fights back. It will deal 30 damage each attack, with an attack cooldown of .8608. The DPS of the spore will be 34.85. During the 7.69 seconds it takes to kill a spore, it will deal 267.99 damage to the flock of mutalisks.
This is enough DPS to have just one spore crawler (with nothing else attacking the mutas) kill two whole mutalisks in the time. Both Mutas and spores have the minor zerg regen but I don't think it changes the outcome.
So, one spore (75 minerals + 50 for drone = 125) kills 2 mutas (200/200). This doesn't take into account a spore + queen, a spore + queen and transfusions, or multiple spores.
I think a buff to the hydralisk would be a better option to shutting down mass mutas.
Well spore crawlers do have a significant range advantage as well, and it is not like if the opponent goes muta you want to only build 1 spore...
Regen does change the outcome. 30 damage a shot, muta's have 120hp and 1hp/s - you need to do 150 damage to kill one, so 300 damage to kill both, because 4 hits isnt enough. The fifth hit comes far too early for the muta to have regenerated enough to live through it though, so its pretty clean kills
On February 05 2013 11:20 MilesTeg wrote: Seriously, this patch is just heart breaking.
Looking back at the past few patches, they've made a series of very bad moves, and now they're building on a horrible foundation. Those Muta changes are the best example of that. First they add a ton of "Muta killers" for no reason, then they buff Mutas, they then buff "Muta killers" more... and now they keep adding more stuff to deal with a problem they created for no reason.
I see a pretty obvious solution to the Muta problem: back to WoL Mutas, Mines can't shoot up, Phoenix back to WoL stats. The thing they're unwilling to do is say: ok, we made a mistake, let's revert those changes.
And Mutas are just an example. The fungal changes were a bad move. The tank buff was a bad move. The oracle change was a bad move (what the hell is that unit supposed to be anyway? a spellcaster? just a normal fighting air to ground unit? why does it even need energy?). And then there are some other issues, like Mines, which don't really work as intended, useless in ZvP where they were supposed to make mech viable, and stupidly strong in ZvT.
I can live with a bad patch, like the horrible patch 11. But after a month, they've kept trying to work around the issues they created in that patch, further breaking the game. The first step should be to revert some of the bad moves they made.
I really agree with what this guy said. It's one big fault snowballing over and over. The oracle becoming this caster but not really caster unit, the widow mine attacking air (when was the last time Terrans had problem vs air? Look at what this did: muta buff then phoenix range buff then now spore buff ...).
On February 05 2013 14:07 RaiKageRyu wrote: If they really want to discourage mutas in ZvZ, just make Spores do splash damage. It's more natural than the artifically tacked on bonus damage to bio, and it doesn't really affect the other matchups that much.
This has an impact on other matchups now.. making them do extra vs bio does not.
I like the envision buff a lot. I felt it was way too short for the energy cost. The rest I am not sure. spending 100 gas for overlord speed that early is really expensive.
The spore+muta+fungal relationship will be difficult to fix. That spore change especially feels really weird.
I am surprised there is no planned change to swarm host, corruptor and overseer.
On February 05 2013 15:53 ETisME wrote: I like the envision buff a lot. I felt it was way too short for the energy cost. The rest I am not sure. spending 100 gas for overlord speed that early is really expensive.
The spore+muta+fungal relationship will be difficult to fix. That spore change especially feels really weird.
I am surprised there is no planned change to swarm host, corruptor and overseer.
I don't see why it has to be nerfed. Considering bigger issues and I don't see many zergs do that composition from watching streams. Skytoss needs to be looked at first, same with millennium falcons (speed medivacs).
Instead of constantly altering the units, they should really try to alter the mechanic of the game like unit spacing, resource gathering and high ground advantage. Moving t2 tech to t1 won't make any difference imo. zvz is transitioning to bw zvz but worse, since muta vs muta is much worse to watch in sc2. Where is the micro?
On February 05 2013 03:51 sagefreke wrote: Spore buff is going to be the biggest change.
Spores will now kill Mutas in 5 hits (4 assuming there's a queen by it).
Basically when the first 8 or so Mutas pop out for Zerg, one spore at each base will shut down Muta harass HARD. Notice your opponent going for a mass Muta flock? Just toss down another spore at your bases and you have 2 static defenses dealing 30 damage a piece. I almost feel like the change will kill Muta play since spores will absolutely demolish them.
Looking at the change though, I feel like Blizzard is missing a huge opportunity to just buff the fucking Hydralisk against air.
Not to be a dick, but this changes nothing, you can still not move out from your base, and if you see them mass spores you can just take another base and keep map control, this will change nothing except the initial 8 mutas, when the muta flock is at 24 and you have ling / bane with speed banes and ultras, and he is maxxed on his hydra roach army, you are still dead.
Only thing this will possibly change is the fact that muta vs muta doesnt never end up in a baserace again
Some smart players, ehem leenock... will go for the spores with muta and doing a lot of damage, leaving a portion of the base without defenses. This actually matters.
On February 05 2013 16:35 lemonbone wrote: Instead of constantly altering the units, they should really try to alter the mechanic of the game like unit spacing, resource gathering and high ground advantage. Moving t2 tech to t1 won't make any difference imo. zvz is transitioning to bw zvz but worse, since muta vs muta is much worse to watch in sc2. Where is the micro?
Pretty well said
I always thought being maxed in 11 BLIZZARD minutes (what is it? 8 min?) leaves so few room for harassment and small engagements. Everything happens so fast and is so flawlessly executed ( deathball 1a) that it feels so awful to watch.
PvZ, PvP and ZvZ (except the early game engagements) are so terrible in this game.
It would be damn crazy if overlord drops are already available at hatchery tech, that would open a lot of strategic options...... that would be so cool but maybe unbalanced.
On February 05 2013 15:53 ETisME wrote: I like the envision buff a lot. I felt it was way too short for the energy cost. The rest I am not sure. spending 100 gas for overlord speed that early is really expensive.
The spore+muta+fungal relationship will be difficult to fix. That spore change especially feels really weird.
I am surprised there is no planned change to swarm host, corruptor and overseer.
I don't see why it has to be nerfed. Considering bigger issues and I don't see many zergs do that composition from watching streams. Skytoss needs to be looked at first, same with millennium falcons (speed medivacs).
I feel that zerg is having a hard time dealing ground aspect of Skytoss ( If that makes sense ) Corruptors seem to do fine against my air army but it's not until I have Archons and High templar in the mix that I see zergs tend to struggle.
Trying not to clump your units under archons whilst focusing down tempest/carriers is not an easy task. It's also not an easy task trying to just simply move your army even a foot when the Zerg has broodlords and Swarms hosts. I guess if you allow your opponent to get to that point in his army comp you are just supposed to lose no matter what.
Oracle is more expensive, than 5 marines. Widow mine can help you against Oracle. Rocket Turrets with range upgrade can help against Oracles too. Viking also too. SCv can repair rocket turret also.
At Zerg side, 2 queens can kill one Oracle. Mutalisk and fungals are also good against oracles. Hydralisk even when light units can kill Oracles very well
On February 05 2013 03:37 HelloSon wrote: Overlord speed change shouldn't affect too much. Burrow change was bigger IMO and that hasn't had much an effect so far.
Spore buff is good as well as infestor nerf.
It's only big is if zergs decide now that they have speed on overlords that once lair is done then researching drop tech might become more standard.
@Spore buff, I was like wtf is bio and flying at first lol (was only thinking ZvP, ZvT.
Why so? Ovi speed, lair and ovi drop still adds up to the same amount of time and resources as it is now.
i don't see how you can really think that a double damage on the spores doesn't affect muta play. I'm rather thinking that you could make all your bases muta impenetrable cost efficiently with these killer spores. If hes got enough mutas to oneshot a spore (that's a lot of mutas) , then build four spores so you'll oneshot mutas instead.
On February 05 2013 03:58 Aquila- wrote: What scouting buffs did terran get? Reaper?? Terran by now has the worst or rather the most expensive scouting options, especially in tvp it is a guessing game what allin the protoss is gonna do. Also where is the much needed nerf to oracles?
On February 05 2013 17:20 CYFAWS wrote: i don't see how you can really think that a double damage on the spores doesn't affect muta play. I'm rather thinking that you could make all your bases muta impenetrable cost efficiently with these killer spores. If hes got enough mutas to oneshot a spore (that's a lot of mutas) , then build four spores so you'll oneshot mutas instead.
Agreed. If anything, this change can prove too much, certainly not too little.
I personally find this thread heart warming seeing all these people share their concerns with Blizzard. But...did Blizzard ever listen to you? You like HOTS the way it is? At some point one has to step up and tell Blizzard to go f..k themselves. DOT2 is nice.
Holy crap, so much complaining going on. I still didn't lose hope. I think that Blizzard will have it done, and even if it is imbalanced at the start, they will fix things later. So far from watching VODs, HOTS is a lot more interesting than WoL, and WoL was solid game imo.
The funniest thing is how some people complain about units being "useless" or "uninteresting" when it is just their opinion.
Oracle is more expensive, than 5 marines. Widow mine can help you against Oracle. Rocket Turrets with range upgrade can help against Oracles too. Viking also too. SCv can repair rocket turret also.
At Zerg side, 2 queens can kill one Oracle. Mutalisk and fungals are also good against oracles. Hydralisk even when light units can kill Oracles very well
Did you even look at the time? That thing came at 5:52.
How can you think one oracle massacring nonstop production of the only unit terran can build that can shoot up by 5:52 is not a problem? One widow mine doesn't even one shot a oracle. If you think it's fair for terran to build a ebay and a two turret everytime protoss takes 2 gas then you don't understand balance. Your starport won't even be done by 5:52 in a 1-1-1 build.
On February 05 2013 17:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: Holy crap, so much complaining going on. I still didn't lose hope. I think that Blizzard will have it done, and even if it is imbalanced at the start, they will fix things later. So far from watching VODs, HOTS is a lot more interesting than WoL, and WoL was solid game imo.
The funniest thing is how some people complain about units being "useless" or "uninteresting" when it is just their opinion.
It's hard not to lose hope when you see the HOTS beta repeating WoL's mistakes. The community may have strong-armed Blizzard into fixing some of the most egregious problems, but it seems that they're learned very little in the process.
EDIT: Spore buff won't affect ZvZ so much, because when people have a big enough muta flock they basically oneshot spores anyway. Envision is rarely used. Could see more use with that change but I doubt it.
Well no..because they want that to not happen. They want sports to replace the mass fungal of the mutarisks. Pretty sure that is a big deal to ZvZ. Like he was saying the 100/100 and 100 second wait for Overlord speed is still pretty long, i guess it makes getting creep highways even quicker. Guess will have to see what the likes of NesTea and the innovative players do with this one.
I wanna see how OP these spores are going to be ^_^
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
IMO you're missing the point of why Mr. Kim makes these posts. He's specifically asking for user feedback about those specific changes. All these other suggestions about what Blizzard should or should not be doing is, one, completely off topic to what was being asked, and two, not going to make much of a dent with the designers when accompanied with such fatalistic predictions. It's like someone asking you, "Do you have the time?" and you respond with "Do I have the time?! Does anyone have the time?! Why didn't you kill that black cat walking in front of me?! We're all going to die! Where's your shotgun?! The Zombie Apocalypse is upon us!!!!" At which point the guy with the question backs away slowly.
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
Wait. How is overlord drop going to come out any sooner? It's still lair tech. No matter what the earliest drop tech will be the same now and after this patch. overlord speed finishes way before overlord drop and if you are going to do drops you get both upgrades at the same time lol. I don't get how you think overlord speed being re searchable at hatch tech = faster drops won't change it at all. Same timing no matter what.
On February 05 2013 18:09 Belha wrote: So no hellbat and medivac nerfs?
Classic Blizzard timing to balance the obvious.
Hellbats and Medivacs are fine, there are other things wrong with HotS. Especially Medivac speed is a great thing for the game. Its not like its a auto-boost, you have to micro the shit out of it to make it worthless. For 95% of terrans the only use it to "sprint" in and out of the base.
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
Very well said. I've also lost hope. At first I lost it, but then it returned with patch 8 (which the community unanimously agreed on), but since then we haven't had any good patches or any changes in the right direction (things we've been asking for and flaws we've been pointing out since WoL release) proving that it was likely dumb luck.
Blizzard had a chance to fix this game which is blatantly disrespectful to it's predecessor in it's current state, but they don't seem to care as long as SC2 is profitable as beta is drawing to an end. They'll just milk it, and move on to the next big flashy new game after LotV is milked.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
If the Oracle is allowed to be that strong (beat 6 marines at the same time and live with a decent chunk of HP) then why are so many people crying for hellbat nerfs (despite mech as a whole still being bad in both matchups because of Viper and Skytoss)? This is called bias.
As a random player it's pretty obvious that the Oracle seems a bit overly strong, and I think most reasonable people would agree.
On February 05 2013 17:35 IronyDK wrote: Overlord speed wont change drop viabillity at all. It's already the shortest upgrade, research time wise. If they changed the research times around I could see some viabillty in it, but that wouldn't make much sense either.
On February 05 2013 17:29 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Yes it is clearly imba that terran cannot defend against oracle builds that cost 300/300 with 5 unupgraded marines costing 250 minerals.
Well I thought the oracle was supposed to be a support caster and harassment unit, not some combat unit that owns a lot of stuff cost efficiently?
On February 05 2013 18:09 Belha wrote: So no hellbat and medivac nerfs?
Classic Blizzard timing to balance the obvious.
Hellbats and Medivacs are fine, there are other things wrong with HotS. Especially Medivac speed is a great thing for the game. Its not like its a auto-boost, you have to micro the shit out of it to make it worthless. For 95% of terrans the only use it to "sprint" in and out of the base.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
Ok. You guys know so much about the game. Give me a build to do vs protoss that opens with 2 gas.
Get an ebay.
Scout: DTs -> Missile Turret Stargate -> Missile Turret Blink ->Sensor Tower (You will at all points in time know where his army is and when he decides to blink up without endangering a single unit Still have to lift natural CC obviously but once you got stim it is pretty much won)
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
If the Oracle is allowed to be that strong (beat 6 marines at the same time and live with a decent chunk of HP) then why are so many people crying for hellbat nerfs (despite mech as a whole still being bad in both matchups because of Viper and Skytoss)? This is called bias.
As a random player it's pretty obvious that the Oracle seems a bit overly strong, and I think most reasonable people would agree.
I have to say that I find it hilarious how you are talking about bias, when every post of yours is crying about how Terran is weak, while also saying that you are playing random. Yes, Terran should be buffed a lot and everything else should be nerfed into Oblivion, then it would be "fair" for you, I guess.
it's good that the oracle beat marines for cost(for mineral at least), stop thinking the marine should counter any air, actually they need to be nerfed, cuz they are too veratile, use viking turret and other stuff to kill air (yes i'm terran)
Aww this is hurtfull to read (the patchnotes). Why are they trying to fix such "little" things when there are really obvious things that needs to be fixed? Shall i list them? Curropter, nydus, hellbat, infestor, etc. etc.
I really dont understand why blizzard wastes so much time in making stupid changes like burrow at hatch tech or overlord speed at hatch tech. I mean maybe its nice, but it will have little or no impact on the game.
At least there is some hope left for me that they may work on some obvious things and just ask for feedback about things which they arent sure about. But hell, honestly, its blizzard, looking back to the past 3 years steals me that hope. I bet money it takes at least a year until hots will be decently balanced..
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
If the Oracle is allowed to be that strong (beat 6 marines at the same time and live with a decent chunk of HP) then why are so many people crying for hellbat nerfs (despite mech as a whole still being bad in both matchups because of Viper and Skytoss)? This is called bias.
As a random player it's pretty obvious that the Oracle seems a bit overly strong, and I think most reasonable people would agree.
The tragedy of all of this is that the oracle was supposed to be a "smart" unit, as in a spellcaster that would harass, and not actually kill units, along with other non-deathballish spells.
reality of the game is different however, you NEED to tech to an attacking unit
Get this, and this is by far the most important critic I have of SC2:
The "minutes" I will be referring to are actually blizzard minutes, so it is actually 0.66 real minutes for a blizzard minute IIRC. A zerg can max out in 11 minutes.. most non-cheesy builds will not involve any pressure whatsoever before 6 minutes. So the actual window for meaningful harassment is actually 5 BLIZZARD minutes. In other words, as opposed to BW, there is actually no time in SC2 to really develop a nice harassment strategy.
SC2 has no deep harassment involved.. most of the times, the term " harassment" we use is just some multitasking situation.. while the enemy's deathball is away from mineral patches.
SC2 also has no map control.. it has map awareness. You don't put 4-5 siege tanks and mines somewhere to defend a path, because the deathball would only take the other path and destroy your main army which is 4-5 siege tanls and mines short in supply.
See where I'm getting at? Blizzard should work on THIS instead of balancing the same old shit.
And then I see you guys arguing whether an oracle should kill 5 marines or they should kill the oracle. Are you kidding me? Do you really think this is gonna make the game a treat for viewers? do you think all the koreans who said "Fuck it" when kespa moved from BW to SC2 are suddenly gonna come back when we will finally balance the oracle-marines dynamism? Will we finally fill up all the stadiums from the BW OSL times because some Patchzerg will siege up a protoss with his mighty swarm hosts? Seriously... arguing about balance while the game has fundamental flaws is not going to solve anything.. forget it.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
Ok. You guys know so much about the game. Give me a build to do vs protoss that opens with 2 gas.
Get an ebay.
Scout: DTs -> Missile Turret Stargate -> Missile Turret Blink ->Sensor Tower (You will at all points in time know where his army is and when he decides to blink up without endangering a single unit Still have to lift natural CC obviously but once you got stim it is pretty much won)
And scout it how exactly? With a scan? BOOM: tech is hidden somewhere else. With an scv? BOOM: stalker out. With a reaper? Then you opened gas, and chances are high that the toss will prevent the reaper to get in.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
Ok. You guys know so much about the game. Give me a build to do vs protoss that opens with 2 gas.
Get an ebay.
Scout: DTs -> Missile Turret Stargate -> Missile Turret Blink ->Sensor Tower (You will at all points in time know where his army is and when he decides to blink up without endangering a single unit Still have to lift natural CC obviously but once you got stim it is pretty much won)
You're missing something with missile turret. You need to build at least 2 of them for full coverage. You're also forgetting something important. Protoss can expo while keeping your in your one base, just like in pvp where one guy blink expands. Terran however is stuck with no followup.
On February 05 2013 19:16 Garmer wrote: it's good that the oracle beat marines for cost(for mineral at least), stop thinking the marine should counter any air, actually they need to be nerfed, cuz they are too veratile, use viking turret and other stuff to kill air (yes i'm terran)
Oh Viking turret? You mean like opening gas into FE into fact into starport, so a 1gate nexus into 4 gate can crush you? Or are we talking about a 1-1-1 into CC, that is behind vs a 1gate nexus?
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
Ok. You guys know so much about the game. Give me a build to do vs protoss that opens with 2 gas.
Get an ebay.
Scout: DTs -> Missile Turret Stargate -> Missile Turret Blink ->Sensor Tower (You will at all points in time know where his army is and when he decides to blink up without endangering a single unit Still have to lift natural CC obviously but once you got stim it is pretty much won)
And scout it how exactly? With a scan? BOOM: tech is hidden somewhere else. With an scv? BOOM: stalker out. With a reaper? Then you opened gas, and chances are high that the toss will prevent the reaper to get in.
I am not sure how he will prevent the Reaper to come in with Reaper's 3.75 movement speed, while fastest unit for Protoss at that stage of the game, the Stalker, got 2.95 movement speed. Only if the map itself prevents Reaper from going into the base, which won't happen.
On February 05 2013 19:16 Garmer wrote: it's good that the oracle beat marines for cost(for mineral at least), stop thinking the marine should counter any air, actually they need to be nerfed, cuz they are too veratile, use viking turret and other stuff to kill air (yes i'm terran)
Oh Viking turret? You mean like opening gas into FE into fact into starport, so a 1gate nexus into 4 gate can crush you? Or are we talking about a 1-1-1 into CC, that is behind vs a 1gate nexus?
they also need gas for oracle, you can just build two turret in the minerals fields
I'm struggling to see how this is going to make the game any better, its just bandage after bandage slapped onto it.
I'm confident that HotS will be enjoyable like WoL was a small year after release, but I pray to god that it doesn't end in the same ol' 3base-max-and-go.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
If the Oracle is allowed to be that strong (beat 6 marines at the same time and live with a decent chunk of HP) then why are so many people crying for hellbat nerfs (despite mech as a whole still being bad in both matchups because of Viper and Skytoss)? This is called bias.
As a random player it's pretty obvious that the Oracle seems a bit overly strong, and I think most reasonable people would agree.
I have to say that I find it hilarious how you are talking about bias, when every post of yours is crying about how Terran is weak, while also saying that you are playing random. Yes, Terran should be buffed a lot and everything else should be nerfed into Oblivion, then it would be "fair" for you, I guess.
On February 05 2013 17:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: Holy crap, so much complaining going on. I still didn't lose hope. I think that Blizzard will have it done, and even if it is imbalanced at the start, they will fix things later. So far from watching VODs, HOTS is a lot more interesting than WoL, and WoL was solid game imo.
The funniest thing is how some people complain about units being "useless" or "uninteresting" when it is just their opinion.
It's hard not to lose hope when you see the HOTS beta repeating WoL's mistakes. The community may have strong-armed Blizzard into fixing some of the most egregious problems, but it seems that they're learned very little in the process.
Yes, but that said just because Blizzard didn't learn I still think what happened in the past with #savehots and the community urging that brought about the removal of the Warhound and other relatively good changes for HotS set a good precedent in that Blizzard does listen somewhat if we're loud enough; despite how terrible this proposed patch is I think as a community, even if we lose hope, we still should keep pushing. I know it's grim; Browder has even recently said that there's "not a chance" that Warp Gate or Colossus would ever be revisited, but what can we do?
If all else fails then we'll just have to try our best to fix the game with community editing. The SC2BW and FWB projects have shown that we can get a lot done.
I'm surprised they aren't addressing Medivac speed ability and VRs, because both are equally dumb. First one should be a research and second one has very limited use outside of PvP. PvZ seems fine from my experience, but I expect some korean toss to show us crazy new timings with the void rays or mothership core that will have to be nerfed into the ground.
The Overlord Speed change is just as useless as the Burrow change. Why should I invest 100/100 for Overlord Speed, when I can just invest 150/100 to get a Lair and simply scout with Overseers plus have all of the additional advantages of the Lair tech? That's just never gonna work. You need to lower the resources _and_ research time for both Burrow and Overlord Speed for them to be useful on T1.
For the Spore Crawler change I think it's generally an interesting idea and will definitely help. I still fear that mass Muta might be too good. If the change allows you to get a safe third base against Muta, then this will help a lot to get a decent number of Infestors/Hydras to battle the Mutas. At least Blizzard realized that ZvZ is broken right now...
No matter what you do in TvP and your opening,you must get ebay at 6:00 and turret in the mineral line+4 marines OR bunker+4 marines to prevent the oracle harass. IF you go 1rax FE you still can defend DTs keeping your scans near 6:30-7:00 mins.
Vikings are bad vs Oracle,because it takes an year to kill one of them,while they are going to crush 20 workers(if two of them are coming).
Looks like the broad sweeping changes most people were hoping for arent going to arrive. Probably going to expect some significant day 1-3 patches before MLG.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
If the Oracle is allowed to be that strong (beat 6 marines at the same time and live with a decent chunk of HP) then why are so many people crying for hellbat nerfs (despite mech as a whole still being bad in both matchups because of Viper and Skytoss)? This is called bias.
As a random player it's pretty obvious that the Oracle seems a bit overly strong, and I think most reasonable people would agree.
I have to say that I find it hilarious how you are talking about bias, when every post of yours is crying about how Terran is weak, while also saying that you are playing random. Yes, Terran should be buffed a lot and everything else should be nerfed into Oblivion, then it would be "fair" for you, I guess.
Great response, except that the definition of "Straw Man" has nothing to do with it when you are clearly complaining about it in every of your posts. Out of your last 6 posts, 4 are complaining.
I still think HotS is really good and even though its not balanced at this time there are ways to deal with most things. As a zerg I love that hellbatdrops are strong for example. It adds excitement to the game to see some some good focus-firing and pickup micro in the early game. Burrow is strong aswell but with hellbat splash you can still kill things without scan. I am positive that good players will find ways to do amazing things with the new units and Im looking forward to seeing that.
As far as the changes proposed I think they are worth testing. Spore splash aeo against bio should be considered though or maybe even some queen aoe ability against bio air (muta).
Zerg DOES NOT NEED A SCOUTING BUFF. This is the most preposterous change ever proposed for the beta. I am fully and wholeheartedly against it. If David Kim disagrees I am willing to write a full-length, hardcover book proving him wrong.
DEADSERIOUS :-O
As a Protoss player, though, I know it's early, but I am currently of the opinion that Void Rays break the PvP matchup. Stargate or die!
Overlord speed buff is almost irrelevant, the cost is huge for what you get and I dont feel like Z need a scouting buff at that timing, but that's more options for players willing to pay the price so why not Fungal nerf, I dont understand, it doesnt feel that strong on the beta, I dont see why they'd want to nerf it more Spore buff is a decent band-aid fix to muta spam in ZvZ but they are missing the opportunity of buffing Zerg general anti-air, as it feel very weak vs Sky deathball I cant say about oracle's envision
Overall I'm not liking it much, missing some point like the hellbat issue
i made a post summarzing some core issues again, i m just losing faith
I am losing my faith to ... the faith in the community.
Is anyone really expecting a fully balanced game at launch date?
No, but why the hell do they spend weeks (yes, weeks) for stuff like moving burrow and ovi speed to hatch tech instead fixing some (just SOME^^) of the obvious problems?
On February 05 2013 21:28 LF[Media] wrote: Zerg DOES NOT NEED A SCOUTING BUFF. This is the most preposterous change ever proposed for the beta. I am fully and wholeheartedly against it. If David Kim disagrees I am willing to write a full-length, hardcover book proving him wrong.
DEADSERIOUS :-O
As a Protoss player, though, I know it's early, but I am currently of the opinion that Void Rays break the PvP matchup. Stargate or die!
With a 40 second build time increase it's a nerf if anything lol.
What the is this? What the fock have they been doing past the 5 minutes coming up with this needed? It's been weeks and this is all? No change for corruptor, nothing done about fungal rooting, Oracle, mine, nothing changed at Terrans late game or thor either, and the gateway colossi is only not the most boring thing left without a change is now only because they are not doing anything about the messy skytoss either. We need changes and this is what they propose. What is wrong with you blizzard?
The biggest issues to me right now are the Hellbat, Protoss air, and the Mothership Core. Makes me wonder how much they even play HotS or even watch games on it. If they happened to watch any of Thorzains stream, they would be disgusted at how protoss is right now. Honestly makes me nervous now as it is so close to release date and they aren't fixing real problems.
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
Except you forget that oracle is also faster, is air so it ignores terrain. So basically the Protoss chooses when to fight and can retreat any time. That in itself is a huge advantage. So you can't just look at cost when looking at unit v unit fights.
On February 05 2013 04:38 virpi wrote: the overlord speed change won't affect the game. 100 gas pre-lair are a lot of money. I'd like to see some work done to the hydra. The speed upgrade is neat, but hydras are still kinda weak. envision change is cool, spore change will make later spires viable vs. fast muta players. spores won't do that much against big flocks, though.
Assuming you're not 1-basing, you now have the option to research OL speed while lair is morphing, no? Once lair complete you can opt to get burrow + transport right away for some sort of crazy speed overlord drop burrow thingy.
Overlord speed upgrade to tier 1 seems to me one of the most meaningless changes that they can make to the game.
I'm bothered with the lack of creativity from Blizzard. The Oracle 's Pulsar Beam, in essence, is equal to the Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment. On top of that add two vision spells to the Oracle. What is their actual plan for this unit?
Firebats could be healed with Medivacs not Hellbats. What's next? In LotV Medivacs can heal Command Centers and Turrets?
On February 05 2013 15:53 ETisME wrote: I like the envision buff a lot. I felt it was way too short for the energy cost. The rest I am not sure. spending 100 gas for overlord speed that early is really expensive.
The spore+muta+fungal relationship will be difficult to fix. That spore change especially feels really weird.
I am surprised there is no planned change to swarm host, corruptor and overseer.
I don't see why it has to be nerfed. Considering bigger issues and I don't see many zergs do that composition from watching streams. Skytoss needs to be looked at first, same with millennium falcons (speed medivacs).
Nono, I didn't really mean it needs to be nerfed. I just meant the 3 units need some tweaking, blizzard have long talked about making overseer and corruptor more interesting. I certainly was expecting some change to the corruptor more than anything else, a change would be nice before the game roll out.
The swarm host as an unit issues were discussed a lot in other thread. Personally I just want something different to it because I find it to be quite a boring/annoying unit to use/play against.
Now that you mentioned it, the swarm host corruptor and overseer unit composition I dislike as well, I feel like it is like a DT blink stalker vs Zerg ball in earlier stage of WoL. It's an abusive unit composition by just constantly eliminating the detection unit of the opponent.
As for skytoss, I don't think Blizzard will nerf it anytime after the game is released. I was actually expecting Zerg to receive a buff in some of their AA units so that muta won't be this dominate in ZvZ and has a better chance against late game ultra air vs air deathball situation. It looks like Blizzard is taking the "let's see how balance roll out when the metagame stablise" approach in this issue. I certainly hope one day Zerg will have a good air deathball to deal with Sky terran and Sky toss.
On February 05 2013 07:46 Karpfen wrote: I think a drastic change to corruptors (a pretty big buff) so that they trade on part with void rays is needed. It would solve the sky terran problem aswell. Obviously not a too huge buff that would slaughter air play, just a pretty big one so that you can have an answer.
jaeh so colossi because absolue useless ^^ sounds right ... are you kidding ?
you are assuming something without having ground to do so. I am sure there is a way to buff the corruptor against void rays without having them destroying colossi completely. an example is the spell that was suggested in OneGoal: create scourge (and don't make it hit colossi obviously).
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
Except you forget that oracle is also faster, is air so it ignores terrain. So basically the Protoss chooses when to fight and can retreat any time. That in itself is a huge advantage. So you can't just look at cost when looking at unit v unit fights.
Exactly which is why the flat base rate of air units should have been never as big as they eventually got.
On February 05 2013 04:38 virpi wrote: the overlord speed change won't affect the game. 100 gas pre-lair are a lot of money. I'd like to see some work done to the hydra. The speed upgrade is neat, but hydras are still kinda weak. envision change is cool, spore change will make later spires viable vs. fast muta players. spores won't do that much against big flocks, though.
Assuming you're not 1-basing, you now have the option to research OL speed while lair is morphing, no? Once lair complete you can opt to get burrow + transport right away for some sort of crazy speed overlord drop burrow thingy.
Moving overlord speed to hatch does literally nothing to increase the speed that you can do drop play. The ventral sacs upgrade is twice as long, OL speed was never a limiting factor. That being said, what it DOES let you do is get OL speed and do a quick scout so once you hit lair you know if drops is a good investment or not. The biggest problem with drop play is that to do it early (so you would have a timing advantage) you have to blindly guess if the player is going to be prepped for it plus OL speed was such a dead giveaway. It lets you play reactive which is a good thing.
guys Blizzard will definitely address the skytoss issue for zerg, they always fix problems like this but sometimes they take a long time to do it/wait for potential answers to arise like they did when zergs found an answer to mass void ray/colossus in WoL back in 2011 (the infestor). I'm pretty sure they're going to have to make a change this time, as I don't see any answers popping up for zergs, but I'm very curious how they'll do it. My guess is they still will be hesitant to do something about the lackluster hydra which would be my favorite response, but instead probably nerf void ray, maybe their instacharge ability. Maaaaaaaybe a corruptor change but probably not as they're already effective antiair vs a large number of units. And they are so scared of infestor buffs which really was the main way zerg had to deal with voidray/colo in WoL 2011. What else is there.. viper can help support but still they need some backbone unit to actually kill the air, and vipers are also very vulnerable to feedback and come late in the game. Zerg has no mobile tier 1 antiair units, and only 1 mobile ground-to-air unit in their entire tech tree..one that is very low hp and is extremely vulnerable to splash and even regular units (it's a common misconception that you need splash vs hydra, zealot/stalker works just fine vs them esp with their abilities researched)
I never understood that really why zerg only gets 1 ground-to-air unit which imo makes the best sort of gameplay (as opposed to air-to-air), since it utilizes map terrain features and makes it so only 1 side gets the bonus of circumventing terrain. terran/protoss each now have 3 ground-to-air units, marine/thor/widowmine, stalker/sentry/archon. And our 1 ground-to-air unit isn't even very good still, vs 3 of the 5 protoss air units (and horrible vs BCs), and it's the only 3 protoss air that will be massed vs zerg (so, not oracles nor tempests, although note oracles actually melt hydras fast too, they just die faster if theyre the ones being targeted. So if hydras are attacking something else, the oracles actually pay for themselves several times over with how fast they melt the hydras btw).
Furthermore, hydras scale poorly with upgrades is another issue that my want to be looked at. And one big issue i've always had is their horrible attack animation.. their wind-up time is so long, with their attack speed so fast, together it makes them awful for trying to stutter step, limiting what a good player can do with them and it's better to just make them A-move in most cases. The solutions to both of these problems could work well together, as they could reduce their attack speed and simultaneously increase base damage to even it out, but give them +2 per upgrade to make them scale better, and should also fixing their dumb attack wind-up time, allowing for more potential for micro/stutterstepping.
I was pretty disappointed when I found out zerg would be getting no new anti-air units in hots, and our current one's 'buff' just isn't enough, as if the only thing that sucked about hydras was their move speed off creep.
But like I said they've been so hesitant to change hydras for some reason (they've been lackluster for all of WoL and that's suited them just fine, and make an irrelevant change in hots beta that doesn't effect their damage nor hp). I really only expect them to not make any significant changes to zerg's antiair but instead nerf protoss's air
They can't just nerf everything into the ground in Beta. Their approach is and has always been to create things more on the really strong side and gradually tone them down if need be. That way players will have time to figure out what's viable and what isn't. People thought Ghost snipe was pretty useless until suddenly Mvp started murdering zergs with nothing Snipe. Give the game some time to be figured out before demanding drastic changes. They will come if necessary, don't worry.
And seriously, this is BETA. It's mostly played by people who haven't had much success at the end of WoL right now, the rest is still mostly playing WoL. If say someone like Idra, Naniwa or whoever is complaining about certain aspects of BETA HotS right now that's cool and all and they might be right, certainly. But I still prefer the judgment of top korean players when they get their hands on the game and start figuring it out.
Terran High Master here. From my perspective the most OP unit right now is the Oracle. The most common build for terrans is to fast expand, and when you do this you will have like 4-7 marines when the first oracle comes. A single oracle will slaugther these marines because it does freaking 30dps to them!!
But the thing is the oracle will run over the mineralline where the marines aren't, kill a few scvs (alot mostly 10+ in the lower leagues cause of slow reaction), even if i oull my scvs instantly BEFORE the oracle is over the mineral line I will loose 4-5 scvs since the oracle is so damn fast, kills scvs in 1 hit and then it dissapears until its energy is back and redo the process.
Compare this to a 1base terran vs 2base toss where terran goes Hellbat Drop. It gets shutdown so damn easly. By the time the medivac hits the toss base toss should have mothership core with enough energy for Nexus Attack, and a few other attacking units.
First of pull the probes who are faster then the hellbats so wont loose any if pulled instantly, focus medivac. When medivac is dead its GG for terran. As said hellbats are slow as fuck and only have 2 range!! Even a bronze toss can kite those 4 units I would imagine.
On February 05 2013 22:52 dargul wrote: Gml is unusually balanced now. Just count races in top50. Yesterday it was 15 t 15 z 20 p. So stop crying and start training.
Each race has something imbalanced - each race crying about imba of other 2 races - sounds like damn balance to me
Even if each race had something imbalanced, it would be still imbalanced. Mirror matchups can be imbalanced. Unit can be so bad it's imbalanced. All this is a problem and it doesn't really matter what winrates are, because any imbalance makes the game worse.
Number of race in Top 50 never means something in Wol or in Hots (which is in beta). hots is not balance and it's normal. If you play the beta you have to discuss/talk about the balance issues, it's your job as a beta tester (it's not a free game/demo, but a version to report problem).
On February 05 2013 11:37 mongoose22 wrote: People, these are suggested changes. The patch isn't out, and nowhere does Blizzard say these are final or that they're the only things they're considering. Getting all bent out of shape and going all "OMG why didn't you nerf Hellbats!?!!!?!" about a patch that doesn't exist yet isn't particularly useful.
You are missing the point of 95% of the complaints.
This is not about balancing the game, this is about asking Blizzard to take the opportunity to FIX the game. The problem is that they think HoTS is good enough to be launched.. it is almost the same thing as WoL with a few more build orders available. Why not try to decrease the income per base (to make the game more than a "sit on 3 bases and max out")? why not try to make the deathballs move in lines (to create a defender's advantage)?
They are missing the only chance that they have to actually save this game. If things keep up like this, there will be no one to care about LoTV.
Now if only Riot would make a worthy successor to BW :/
EDIT: And as long as we're talking about the changes.. I'm calling it right now. This is gonna screw PvZ entirely. The timing in which a zerg will be able to mass drop into a toss base will be accelerated by 140 seconds. Have your natural's hatchery upgrade speed while your lair is building, as soon as lair is done, begin overlord drop and build a ton of roaches. There we go... "FOR SCOUTING PURPOSES HUEHUEHUE" As if Zergs need scouting in the first place, and as if this will not affect timings.. :X
IMO you're missing the point of why Mr. Kim makes these posts. He's specifically asking for user feedback about those specific changes. All these other suggestions about what Blizzard should or should not be doing is, one, completely off topic to what was being asked, and two, not going to make much of a dent with the designers when accompanied with such fatalistic predictions. It's like someone asking you, "Do you have the time?" and you respond with "Do I have the time?! Does anyone have the time?! Why didn't you kill that black cat walking in front of me?! We're all going to die! Where's your shotgun?! The Zombie Apocalypse is upon us!!!!" At which point the guy with the question backs away slowly.
Wait...you mean its not normal to react like that? How am I "supposed" to respond when people ask for the time then, eh? Answer me that! Although I did wonder why nobody ever stayed around for me to actually tell them the time...
On topic: can't help but feel people are getting a little hysterical. Its a patch but theres still time left for substantial changes. Just because they aren't in THIS patch doesn't mean they can't happen. That being said I really feel like that they're constantly dancing around the real issue of infestors and fungals and that is the EFFECT of fungal growth. Not projectile speed.
A bit uninspiring as a patch in all honesty. Overlord speed at hatch seems totally pointless (unlike burrow which has some early game utility I can't think of any instance where spending gas on early overlord speed would be worth it). Oracle buff is nice with regard to energy cost but fairly neutral in its actual effect on the game. Spore buff is a result of their own mistakes so...yeah.
On February 05 2013 23:01 spirates wrote: Terran High Master here. From my perspective the most OP unit right now is the Oracle. The most common build for terrans is to fast expand, and when you do this you will have like 4-7 marines when the first oracle comes. A single oracle will slaugther these marines because it does freaking 30dps to them!!
But the thing is the oracle will run over the mineralline where the marines aren't, kill a few scvs (alot mostly 10+ in the lower leagues cause of slow reaction), even if i oull my scvs instantly BEFORE the oracle is over the mineral line I will loose 4-5 scvs since the oracle is so damn fast, kills scvs in 1 hit and then it dissapears until its energy is back and redo the process.
Compare this to a 1base terran vs 2base toss where terran goes Hellbat Drop. It gets shutdown so damn easly. By the time the medivac hits the toss base toss should have mothership core with enough energy for Nexus Attack, and a few other attacking units.
First of pull the probes who are faster then the hellbats so wont loose any if pulled instantly, focus medivac. When medivac is dead its GG for terran. As said hellbats are slow as fuck and only have 2 range!! Even a bronze toss can kite those 4 units I would imagine.
Well then maybe you'll have to take a gas and expand with reactor then if anything indicates protoss stargate play. You know, like protoss always has to take gas and get a cyber core before expanding unless they scout something that makes them completely safe and allows them to delay gas and core. Shouldn't be a problem with the new reaper not requiring a tech lab, right? I'm not very familiar with the timings though so it might be difficult for terran to scout it in time. But that's something that probably can be figured out or helped with little tweaks.
On February 05 2013 23:01 spirates wrote: Terran High Master here. From my perspective the most OP unit right now is the Oracle. The most common build for terrans is to fast expand, and when you do this you will have like 4-7 marines when the first oracle comes. A single oracle will slaugther these marines because it does freaking 30dps to them!!
But the thing is the oracle will run over the mineralline where the marines aren't, kill a few scvs (alot mostly 10+ in the lower leagues cause of slow reaction), even if i oull my scvs instantly BEFORE the oracle is over the mineral line I will loose 4-5 scvs since the oracle is so damn fast, kills scvs in 1 hit and then it dissapears until its energy is back and redo the process.
Compare this to a 1base terran vs 2base toss where terran goes Hellbat Drop. It gets shutdown so damn easly. By the time the medivac hits the toss base toss should have mothership core with enough energy for Nexus Attack, and a few other attacking units.
First of pull the probes who are faster then the hellbats so wont loose any if pulled instantly, focus medivac. When medivac is dead its GG for terran. As said hellbats are slow as fuck and only have 2 range!! Even a bronze toss can kite those 4 units I would imagine.
Where marines fail at stopping oracles turrets/mines are very effective and cheap ways to completely shut down protoss air harass in early game. Just because your WoL builds aren't working perfectly against everything in HOTS does not make the game imbalanced. In my opinion hellbat/mine drops with the new medivac boost are just as if not more powerful than oracle harass (all workers dead in a few seconds at an undefended mineral line), especially since those units actually have synergy with your main army better than a few oracles do for protoss. A photon overcharge alone is NOT enough to shut down a 4 hellbat drop especially if you are threatening the front with some other units as well. I'm not suggesting that you tech all the way up to armory and drops on 1 base but opening with a reactor hellion expo so you can get a mine up in your mineral line before expoing seems reasonable.
Please stop asking for "High ground advantage". There was no problem before some random ladder hero lost vs a 111 on Ohana and made a thread about how awesomely dynamic nerfing to death attacking on entire positions of the map was... Game's got things to change of higher priority.
I know that a lot of you want to see big changes, but I think overlord speed is a really significant change. This upgrade will practically pay for itself. No more sacrificial overlords, and their will be no hiding your tech. I think this will really affect PvZ, where it's absolutely crucial for protoss to hide their tech early game. This will shut down oracle or dt harass hard.
On February 05 2013 23:23 Obamanation666 wrote: I know that a lot of you want to see big changes, but I think overlord speed is a really significant change. This upgrade will practically pay for itself. No more sacrificial overlords, and their will be no hiding your tech. I think this will really affect PvZ, where it's absolutely crucial for protoss to hide their tech early game. This will shut down oracle or dt harass hard.
Naaaah it won't affect PvZ at all. Zerg still opens with 3 hatch no gas and they certainly won't get gas just to get overlord speed. That would throw their entire build off and leave them completely vulnerable against any kind of early attack/pressure even if they do scout it because they'll also be delaying zergling speed if their first gas goes into overlord speed. Basically a well done poke with zealot, 2 stalkers and mothership core could do game ending damage if they do that, lol
On February 05 2013 23:23 Obamanation666 wrote: I know that a lot of you want to see big changes, but I think overlord speed is a really significant change. This upgrade will practically pay for itself. No more sacrificial overlords, and their will be no hiding your tech. I think this will really affect PvZ, where it's absolutely crucial for protoss to hide their tech early game. This will shut down oracle or dt harass hard.
I don't want to be insulting, but how can you think for one second that this will be used. For a cheaper cost, you can make units that will actually help you fight whatever is coming. Most of the time you'll get a pretty good idea of what's coming without scouting anyway. You're never going to spend the equivalent of teching to Lair just because you think "hmm I think I might need to scout in 1 minute".
I'd genuinely want to know the reasoning, because apparently David Kim agrees with you.
Just looked at Sage stream. The fact that broodlords are not even a bit viable in ZvP is sad. Tempest killing broodlords in 3 shots ? This means that zerg has, once again, only 1 viable lategame : it's ultralisks vipers. Tempest already outrange broodlords, they shouldn't kill them in 3 shots... that's too weird.
Blizzard patch choices looks stranger and stranger, as the time goes on.
On February 05 2013 23:23 Obamanation666 wrote: I know that a lot of you want to see big changes, but I think overlord speed is a really significant change. This upgrade will practically pay for itself. No more sacrificial overlords, and their will be no hiding your tech. I think this will really affect PvZ, where it's absolutely crucial for protoss to hide their tech early game. This will shut down oracle or dt harass hard.
I don't want to be insulting, but how can you think for one second that this will be used. For a cheaper cost, you can make units that will actually help you fight whatever is coming. Most of the time you'll get a pretty good idea of what's coming without scouting anyway. You're never going to spend the equivalent of teching to Lair just because you think "hmm I think I might need to scout in 1 minute".
I'd genuinely want to know the reasoning, because apparently David Kim agrees with you.
LOL yeah, this will be used even less than Burrow change. :D Out of all changes, this is the least significant one, in my opinion.
On February 05 2013 23:23 Obamanation666 wrote: I know that a lot of you want to see big changes, but I think overlord speed is a really significant change. This upgrade will practically pay for itself. No more sacrificial overlords, and their will be no hiding your tech. I think this will really affect PvZ, where it's absolutely crucial for protoss to hide their tech early game. This will shut down oracle or dt harass hard.
You obviously don't know the opening of Zerg in ZvP. We must open with 3 hatch no gaz against a FFE. We take our gaz near 5-7 min (depends). When we have 100 gaz it's not for speed ov which takes 100 sec (more than the T2), we have another priority (T2 or speedling, and after roach speed and/or +1). If you open 3 hacth (and you have to open like that against FFE except if you want to all-in) and want speed ov, you'll have it at 9 min without T2 and speedling. It's more simple to have a spore against DT because your speedov will pop too late to scout the dark shrine.
I like all the changes, but I'd like to see some more as well. Specifically...
A reasonable nerf to Protoss air, that still leaves it as a fully viable tech tree but not a nearly unbeatable one when massed. For example, remove Void Ray extended range (that is, Voids have 6 range, but once they're attacking it extends by 2 to follow enemies who try to retreat, which makes it much harder to micro against Voids, so just give them 6 range flat), and raise Tempest supply cost to 6 like other capital ships. Both Voids and Tempests would still be strong units with clear roles, but it'd be easier to micro against Voids, and Tempest supply cost would slightly weaken an air deathball, which would push the overall tech tree back in the direction of "stronger than WoL, but not too strong."
A buff to Terran mech vs. Protoss. Ideally, something that would help Tanks--now that siege is no longer an upgrade, there's room to give Tanks a new upgrade that would help their scaling into the lategame without making them too strong when they first come out. Something like an upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields would help bring back some of the BW TvP mech dynamic (where Tanks shredded Shields since they always did full damage to them), without making them imba in other matchups.
I know some people want to see massive changes that redesign the entire game, but frankly I think even these two fixes--a slight nerf to Toss air, and a buff to mech in TvP--would go a long, long way towards making the game better, without requiring that Blizzard go back to the drawing board a couple months from putting HotS out.
On February 05 2013 23:40 Insoleet wrote: The fact that broodlords are not even a bit viable in ZvP is sad. Tempest killing broodlords in 3 shots ? This means that zerg has, once again, only 1 viable lategame : it's ultralisks vipers. Tempest already outrange broodlords, they shouldn't kill them in 3 shots... that's too weird.
I have to agree with that. I'm a Protoss player and I know tempests have a low dps for their cost, but they have good burst damage and a huge range. 80 (up to 95!) damage per shot to massive air feels it's complete overkill. It would be a very hard counter to these strategies even with 60 damage, at 80, it just makes them obsolete.
On February 06 2013 00:05 awesomoecalypse wrote: I like all the changes, but I'd like to see some more as well. Specifically...
A reasonable nerf to Protoss air, that still leaves it as a fully viable tech tree but not a nearly unbeatable one when massed. For example, remove Void Ray extended range (that is, Voids have 6 range, but once they're attacking it extends by 2 to follow enemies who try to retreat, which makes it much harder to micro against Voids, so just give them 6 range flat), and raise Tempest supply cost to 6 like other capital ships. Both Voids and Tempests would still be strong units with clear roles, but it'd be easier to micro against Voids, and Tempest supply cost would slightly weaken an air deathball, which would push the overall tech tree back in the direction of "stronger than WoL, but not too strong."
A buff to Terran mech vs. Protoss. Ideally, something that would help Tanks--now that siege is no longer an upgrade, there's room to give Tanks a new upgrade that would help their scaling into the lategame without making them too strong when they first come out. Something like an upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields would help bring back some of the BW TvP mech dynamic (where Tanks shredded Shields since they always did full damage to them), without making them imba in other matchups.
I know some people want to see massive changes that redesign the entire game, but frankly I think even these two fixes--a slight nerf to Toss air, and a buff to mech in TvP--would go a long, long way towards making the game better, without requiring that Blizzard go back to the drawing board a couple months from putting HotS out.
I don't like the idea of changing the way the voidray works at all to be honest. I find the range thing something that's really neat about the voidray and without it I think you severly underestimate, wiht the current voidray speed how big of a nerf it would be and almost render voidrays useless again against vikings. A much more gentle solution would be to adjust the armoured damage ability. You can nerf the damage a bit or make it so it only works on ground targets.
The biggest problem by far is that the infestor has been nerfed out of the game already (and they're talking about killing it further) and Zerg has no viable spellcaster vs. Protoss.
i made a post summarzing some core issues again, i m just losing faith
I am losing my faith to ... the faith in the community.
Is anyone really expecting a fully balanced game at launch date?
This. I read so many posts on here and wonder, is so much of our community this impatient, narrowminded, or just plain bad at the the game? I just remember DOA saying the same about our impatience when he mentions that in OSL there wasn't a single race except...can't remember....that won for 2 years.
90% of the comments I read here aren't passionate, constructive, or even interesting. All I read are jaded comments that come off as being spoiled and continually disatisfied. Muta wars in ZVZ were killing me, but instead of blaming it on the game, I actually tried problem-solving. IT didn't help, but still, it's my responsibility as the player in a beta to try and come up with solutions. How many of us are pro-level players? There's still so many imperfections in our game.
At the same time, we don't need a band of cheerleaders. It's important that we're critical, but at least constructively. I mean, I was in the game asking people for help with a TvZ through our shared replays, which the community supposedly thinks is the most amazing thing to help our game. No takers. None.
Anyways, just getting fed up and exasperated with our community.
I can't believe this game is releasing in a month. It's not bad, in fact I think the game has gotten a lot more interesting... but T feels almost identical to WoL T. Every significant change they made has been reverted. Skytoss is not only a powerful option but I just cannot see a metagame revolving around it to be interesting to watch. Zerg is fun to play, but it also feels kind of fragile against protoss at times, especially now that their primary spellcaster has been reduced to uselessness.
It's definitely not bad, I have enjoyed every second of playing HotS (besides when lag is overwhelming). but it doesn't feel like they're finished. I was hoping that these changes would be bigger, but these changes look like they're just tweaking things as is... are they really satisfied with where HotS is?
Yes it is clearly imba that terran cannot defend against oracle builds that cost 300/300 with 5 unupgraded marines costing 250 minerals.
Oracles cost 150/150. Don't mislead people
you have to get a stargate do you not? stargate at 150/150 + oracle at 150/150 = 300/300. If you think terran should be able to counter a tech build with 5 unupgraded marines than you're crazy.
On February 05 2013 23:40 Insoleet wrote: The fact that broodlords are not even a bit viable in ZvP is sad. Tempest killing broodlords in 3 shots ? This means that zerg has, once again, only 1 viable lategame : it's ultralisks vipers. Tempest already outrange broodlords, they shouldn't kill them in 3 shots... that's too weird.
I have to agree with that. I'm a Protoss player and I know tempests have a low dps for their cost, but they have good burst damage and a huge range. 80 (up to 95!) damage per shot to massive air feels it's complete overkill. It would be a very hard counter to these strategies even with 60 damage, at 80, it just makes them obsolete.
ya I really think they are going to speed up the firing rate and lower the damage ( keep same dps thou) that way the burst damage isnt so brutal, kinda like what they did for the colossi back in the day
On February 06 2013 00:05 awesomoecalypse wrote: I like all the changes, but I'd like to see some more as well. Specifically...
A reasonable nerf to Protoss air, that still leaves it as a fully viable tech tree but not a nearly unbeatable one when massed. For example, remove Void Ray extended range (that is, Voids have 6 range, but once they're attacking it extends by 2 to follow enemies who try to retreat, which makes it much harder to micro against Voids, so just give them 6 range flat), and raise Tempest supply cost to 6 like other capital ships. Both Voids and Tempests would still be strong units with clear roles, but it'd be easier to micro against Voids, and Tempest supply cost would slightly weaken an air deathball, which would push the overall tech tree back in the direction of "stronger than WoL, but not too strong."
A buff to Terran mech vs. Protoss. Ideally, something that would help Tanks--now that siege is no longer an upgrade, there's room to give Tanks a new upgrade that would help their scaling into the lategame without making them too strong when they first come out. Something like an upgrade that gives bonus damage to shields would help bring back some of the BW TvP mech dynamic (where Tanks shredded Shields since they always did full damage to them), without making them imba in other matchups.
I know some people want to see massive changes that redesign the entire game, but frankly I think even these two fixes--a slight nerf to Toss air, and a buff to mech in TvP--would go a long, long way towards making the game better, without requiring that Blizzard go back to the drawing board a couple months from putting HotS out.
why people want it "easier to micrO" ? the goal should be that everything should be HARDER and saying voids and tempest have no role and no etc etc, plz try pvz late without ^^tempest are the only broodlord killer ingame for protoss, the voids only can deal with the corruptors
On February 05 2013 22:46 Zelniq wrote: guys Blizzard will definitely address the skytoss issue for zerg, they always fix problems like this but sometimes they take a long time to do it/wait for potential answers to arise like they did when zergs found an answer to mass void ray/colossus in WoL back in 2011 (the infestor). I'm pretty sure they're going to have to make a change this time, as I don't see any answers popping up for zergs, but I'm very curious how they'll do it. My guess is they still will be hesitant to do something about the lackluster hydra which would be my favorite response, but instead probably nerf void ray, maybe their instacharge ability. Maaaaaaaybe a corruptor change but probably not as they're already effective antiair vs a large number of units. And they are so scared of infestor buffs which really was the main way zerg had to deal with voidray/colo in WoL 2011. What else is there.. viper can help support but still they need some backbone unit to actually kill the air, and vipers are also very vulnerable to feedback and come late in the game. Zerg has no mobile tier 1 antiair units, and only 1 mobile ground-to-air unit in their entire tech tree..one that is very low hp and is extremely vulnerable to splash and even regular units (it's a common misconception that you need splash vs hydra, zealot/stalker works just fine vs them esp with their abilities researched)
I never understood that really why zerg only gets 1 ground-to-air unit which imo makes the best sort of gameplay (as opposed to air-to-air), since it utilizes map terrain features and makes it so only 1 side gets the bonus of circumventing terrain. terran/protoss each now have 3 ground-to-air units, marine/thor/widowmine, stalker/sentry/archon. And our 1 ground-to-air unit isn't even very good still, vs 3 of the 5 protoss air units (and horrible vs BCs), and it's the only 3 protoss air that will be massed vs zerg (so, not oracles nor tempests, although note oracles actually melt hydras fast too, they just die faster if theyre the ones being targeted. So if hydras are attacking something else, the oracles actually pay for themselves several times over with how fast they melt the hydras btw).
Furthermore, hydras scale poorly with upgrades is another issue that my want to be looked at. And one big issue i've always had is their horrible attack animation.. their wind-up time is so long, with their attack speed so fast, together it makes them awful for trying to stutter step, limiting what a good player can do with them and it's better to just make them A-move in most cases. The solutions to both of these problems could work well together, as they could reduce their attack speed and simultaneously increase base damage to even it out, but give them +2 per upgrade to make them scale better, and should also fixing their dumb attack wind-up time, allowing for more potential for micro/stutterstepping.
I was pretty disappointed when I found out zerg would be getting no new anti-air units in hots, and our current one's 'buff' just isn't enough, as if the only thing that sucked about hydras was their move speed off creep.
But like I said they've been so hesitant to change hydras for some reason (they've been lackluster for all of WoL and that's suited them just fine, and make an irrelevant change in hots beta that doesn't effect their damage nor hp). I really only expect them to not make any significant changes to zerg's antiair but instead nerf protoss's air
Viper is an air unit and one of the best ones in the game
Yes it is clearly imba that terran cannot defend against oracle builds that cost 300/300 with 5 unupgraded marines costing 250 minerals.
Oracles cost 150/150. Don't mislead people
you have to get a stargate do you not?
You forgot to calculate the pylon, warpgate, assimulator and cybernetics core. Protoss is so lucky that they start with 6 probes, it would've been hell to calculate those extra 50 minerals on top.
lol @ all the protoss kids who are prob masters and below saying "game is fine" shows how dumb people are and enjoy their race being OP. If you honestly think skytoss/hellbats are fine, you are a bad player just abusing the fact those units are op atm.
There are so many issues with each race in a big way, these stupid balance changes just prove how clueles/mental david kim and dustin are, really burrow moved to tier 1, was 100% useless last update, now another 100% useless upgrade in tier 1 to??? People only get ovie speed in mid to late game in order to produce some type of drop play or to move ovies away from late game air ect, why on earth would zerg grab it at tier 1?
very sad. I expect a tad better since they made he same dumb mistakes in WOL beta.
On February 06 2013 02:06 LingBlingBling wrote: lol @ all the protoss kids who are prob masters and below saying "game is fine" shows how dumb people are and enjoy their race being OP. If you honestly think skytoss/hellbats are fine, you are a bad player just abusing the fact those units are op atm.
There are so many issues with each race in a big way, these stupid balance changes just prove how clueles/mental david kim and dustin are, really burrow moved to tier 1, was 100% useless last update, now another 100% useless upgrade in tier 1 to??? People only get ovie speed in mid to late game in order to produce some type of drop play or to move ovies away from late game air ect, why on earth would zerg grab it at tier 1?
very sad. I expect a tad better since they made he same dumb mistakes in WOL beta.
a bit offensive, but youre bringing it to the point, agreed :/
Ironically, the guy qqing about how Zerg are UP now to various builds probably only picked Zerg and has been as successful as he has been in WoL because of the exact same problems as current beta. Zerg has had their game of being OP, time to see how it feels on the reverse.
Why does everybody act like those possible changes are a full patchnote ? Is there one anywhere that I missed or people just assume that the next patch gonna be : - ovy speed move to T1 - Spore buff vs bio - enjoy lol
On February 06 2013 01:16 BounceDJC wrote: The biggest problem by far is that the infestor has been nerfed out of the game already (and they're talking about killing it further) and Zerg has no viable spellcaster vs. Protoss.
Also this should have happened a long time ago. Most OP unit in the game for two years.
Reminds me a lot of magic rejuv boxes in Frozen Throne wc3.
On February 06 2013 03:36 JustTray wrote: Ironically, the guy qqing about how Zerg are UP now to various builds probably only picked Zerg and has been as successful as he has been in WoL because of the exact same problems as current beta. Zerg has had their game of being OP, time to see how it feels on the reverse.
id be careful with comparisons like that. its kind of a well known fact that zerg was okish or even underperforming for a large part of WoL. remember them maps where siege tanks could basically fire from one natural to the other natural..?
and according to your analogy of basically "an eye for an eye" your world must be really sad...
By the time a zerg player gets enough gas AND spends the time on the upgrade, isn't it too late to start scouting? This is coming from a guy who normally only does one or two bases scouts, though, and relies mostly on overseers.
On February 06 2013 03:36 Dandy_Moustachu wrote: Why does everybody act like those possible changes are a full patchnote ? Is there one anywhere that I missed or people just assume that the next patch gonna be : - ovy speed move to T1 - Spore buff vs bio - enjoy lol
Pretty much.
Or do you think they will give us tons of great changes when patch preview is just a few irrelevant fixes?
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
This part makes me think the time for big changes is behind us.
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
We're also playing with increasing the single target damage of Widow Mines from 125 to 125 + 35 shields to give it some more strength vs. Protoss.
Seems reasonable, that core a zealot and might one shot a stalker(I am not sure how armor applies to that ability). If you needed a unit to provide map control, something that brings a stalker down to 1 hp would be it.
I watched Grubby's stream last night and the every battle was way more awesome than anything I have seen in WoL. He had my dream army at one point, the Zealot, Immortal, phoenix backed up by carriers and it was the awesomest thing I have ever seen.
DK seems to think they might need to bring the tempest in a bit, but a lot of stuff seems to be working well. Personally the professional streams I have watched where the players are willing to try new stuff are awesome. There are some that are just dull, but players like Grubby really make the units shine and make the whole game look way more exciting.
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
lol... This is why I lost faith in their balancing team after their amazing patch 7. They really started to do some stupid changes and the bold is just lol... xD
On February 06 2013 03:36 JustTray wrote: Ironically, the guy qqing about how Zerg are UP now to various builds probably only picked Zerg and has been as successful as he has been in WoL because of the exact same problems as current beta. Zerg has had their game of being OP, time to see how it feels on the reverse.
Someone didn't watch the first 3/4ths of WoL tournaments.
Ok so protoss will now never leave their base without detection. Hey, scratch that. Without observers. Since oracles get shredded by Widow Mines as well. So there we go, back to robo only openings which we all know already are NOT something you're out on the map with. Yaaay, turtling
On February 06 2013 04:32 DarkLordOlli wrote: Ok so protoss will now never leave their base without detection. Hey, scratch that. Without observers. Since oracles get shredded by Widow Mines as well. So there we go, back to robo only openings >_>
On February 06 2013 04:32 DarkLordOlli wrote: Ok so protoss will now never leave their base without detection. Hey, scratch that. Without observers. Since oracles get shredded by Widow Mines as well. So there we go, back to robo only openings >_>
we are already back to robo only openings T_T
Since when? I open stargate all the time against both protoss and zerg. Terran requires more respect and ground pressence, but I still drop in a stargate because they are awesome.
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
lol... This is why I lost faith in their balancing team after their amazing patch 7. They really started to do some stupid changes and the bold is just lol... xD
it's funny how he cites the massive usage of hydralisks as a reason they're good
they're not being used so much because they're good, but because blizzard keeps telling everyone that they're insanely powerful in HOTS despite the only change being an upgrade (2 total, missile and speed) for off creep speed
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
lol... This is why I lost faith in their balancing team after their amazing patch 7. They really started to do some stupid changes and the bold is just lol... xD
Regarding the Hydralisk, they have the data. Apparently what they see in the beta isn't what the community seems to think. Honestly, if the Hydralisk really proves to be too weak they'll buff them. It's just a numbers thing that can be done in the release game.
and in pro-games I do see that people don't run away from the voidray if they charge. They just stupidly stand there most of the time still thinking they can own it whilst they can't. It's also something that can be easily tweaked. Not really worried at all.
I really like the changes to the widow mine personally. That was my biggest gripe with the nerf since it became so pointless almost versus protoss. Now it's threatening again.
On February 06 2013 04:34 Tsubbi wrote: the hydralisk are not weak part was golden but i lost it at the run away from voidray part
Remember, this we are the same group of people who didn't build ghosts for over a year, only to find out that snipe killed everything-zerg from all teirs I really thing people are dumb enough not to run away from charged voidrays.
Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Regardless though it is awesome to see they are still working on TvP mech, this should (if i did the math right) be able to hold 1 base blink builds a lot easier now that a stalker will die to a widow mine.
You see so much shit about why TvP mech can never work, immortals...skytoss...blah blah blah blah etc. But 1 base blink builds so fucking own mech its ridiculous, even if you don't kill the Terran you can just contain and expo like you didn't even go allin to begin with (with Terran having done a FE like reactor fact into CC or Tank expo or other various type of factory expand builds).
I like the zerg changes. They are nothing too major. Not sure if the envision duration increase is necessary...60 seconds feel too long. Only one I have no opinion about is fungal nerf because i don't use infestors anymore. And that's fine because infestors should fit more of a support role where if i have a few of them it'll definitely make my army stronger, but not to a point where you just mass them. You know a spellcaster is OP when everyone just masses them.
I play random and feel that the game is getting pretty balanced. We as players just have to adapt. Ex. Oracle harass is too OP PvT...try dropping down an ebay and 1 turret at min line and attack/aggression. Oracle/stargate/msc is a lot of gas for 1 base.
The buff to widow mine is not necessary...it pretty much makes it so that they 1 shot oracle...that's too easy def against such a specific tech choice.
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
lol... This is why I lost faith in their balancing team after their amazing patch 7. They really started to do some stupid changes and the bold is just lol... xD
Regarding the Hydralisk, they have the data. Apparently what they see in the beta isn't what the community seems to think. Honestly, if the Hydralisk really proves to be too weak they'll buff them. It's just a numbers thing that can be done in the release game.
and in pro-games I do see that people don't run away from the voidray if they charge. They just stupidly stand there most of the time still thinking they can own it whilst they can't. It's also something that can be easily tweaked. Not really worried at all.
I really like the changes to the widow mine personally. That was my biggest gripe with the nerf since it became so pointless almost versus protoss. Now it's threatening again.
I see hydras is almost every game against skytoss and no one runs away from voidrays, even though they are slow as trash. Its hard to tell what is broken, since everyone seems to thing everything new is terrible.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Wouldn't that mean giving-up the + armored damage bonus? It seems that it would open a much bigger can of worms.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Regardless though it is awesome to see they are still working on TvP mech, this should (if i did the math right) be able to hold 1 base blink builds a lot easier now that a stalker will die to a widow mine.
You see so much shit about why TvP mech can never work, immortals...skytoss...blah blah blah blah etc. But 1 base blink builds so fucking own mech its ridiculous, even if you don't kill the Terran you can just contain and expo like you didn't even go allin to begin with (with Terran having done a FE like reactor fact into CC or Tank expo or other various type of factory expand builds).
Blizzard loves their SC2 units a lot more than those old crappy brood war units. They'll continue to buff their new units and refuse to touch the old ones. This is why we'll never see any old BW unit return to SC2 in hots or lotv
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Wouldn't that mean giving-up the + armored damage bonus? It seems that it would open a much bigger can of worms.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Wouldn't that mean giving-up the + armored damage bonus? It seems that it would open a much bigger can of worms.
What do you mean?
He meant that tanks with +vs shield might not be able to have +vs armored. I don't know how it works. But I think he was thinking about this issue.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Wouldn't that mean giving-up the + armored damage bonus? It seems that it would open a much bigger can of worms.
Just let them have 50 flat dmg +35 vs shield :D Give tank some love
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Regardless though it is awesome to see they are still working on TvP mech, this should (if i did the math right) be able to hold 1 base blink builds a lot easier now that a stalker will die to a widow mine.
You see so much shit about why TvP mech can never work, immortals...skytoss...blah blah blah blah etc. But 1 base blink builds so fucking own mech its ridiculous, even if you don't kill the Terran you can just contain and expo like you didn't even go allin to begin with (with Terran having done a FE like reactor fact into CC or Tank expo or other various type of factory expand builds).
Blizzard loves their SC2 units a lot more than those old crappy brood war units. They'll continue to buff their new units and refuse to touch the old ones. This is why we'll never see any old BW unit return to SC2 in hots or lotv
And yet all the T/Z additions are BW half-assed ripoffs :[
I dont mind if they finally make WM viable vs Toss.So we could stop even the blink stalker push with reactor factory!!!! Thanks Dayvie and lets hope you make this change tomorrow,because time is tikinnn away...
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
lol... This is why I lost faith in their balancing team after their amazing patch 7. They really started to do some stupid changes and the bold is just lol... xD
Regarding the Hydralisk, they have the data. Apparently what they see in the beta isn't what the community seems to think. Honestly, if the Hydralisk really proves to be too weak they'll buff them. It's just a numbers thing that can be done in the release game.
and in pro-games I do see that people don't run away from the voidray if they charge. They just stupidly stand there most of the time still thinking they can own it whilst they can't. It's also something that can be easily tweaked. Not really worried at all.
I really like the changes to the widow mine personally. That was my biggest gripe with the nerf since it became so pointless almost versus protoss. Now it's threatening again.
I see hydras is almost every game against skytoss and no one runs away from voidrays, even though they are slow as trash. Its hard to tell what is broken, since everyone seems to thing everything new is terrible.
So people build the one Zerg unit that can attack air, against air, and that means the unit must be fine, since everyone is using it?
We've been at a stage of WoL for the past 8 months at least, where top Zergs have such incredibly good creep spread that it's not uncommon to see half the map covered in creep. The off-creep speed of Hydras is not the only thing that's stopping people from using them. Everyone still recognizes that Hydras are weak.
The so called buff is barely a buff. Hydras were weak on creep to begin with, making them faster off creep didn't change that.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Regardless though it is awesome to see they are still working on TvP mech, this should (if i did the math right) be able to hold 1 base blink builds a lot easier now that a stalker will die to a widow mine.
You see so much shit about why TvP mech can never work, immortals...skytoss...blah blah blah blah etc. But 1 base blink builds so fucking own mech its ridiculous, even if you don't kill the Terran you can just contain and expo like you didn't even go allin to begin with (with Terran having done a FE like reactor fact into CC or Tank expo or other various type of factory expand builds).
Blizzard loves their SC2 units a lot more than those old crappy brood war units. They'll continue to buff their new units and refuse to touch the old ones. This is why we'll never see any old BW unit return to SC2 in hots or lotv
Really? And here i thought they were just bringing the Lurker/Spider mines/Fire bat/defiler retard cousins in. Good to see that someone thinks that these idea were original!
On February 06 2013 05:03 rustypipe wrote: How about they fix Zerg's AA problems first..... jeez I've never been so non-excited for a release ever..... barf
Plus they haven't fixed the turtling issues at all, they have made it worse if anything for all races, especially Zerg.
Which is the Zerg AA problem???
Vs Sky Terran you can go mass Corruptors and Mutas.BC arent so good and even Ravens wont save the T if you make some Infestors.
Vs Sky Protoss you uso Corruptors to snipe Carriers and Tempest.If they go mass Voids you can also make Hydralisks,now they are pretty fast.You can only rely on Fungals and Corruptors.Some Vipers with the Cloud can also help
We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
lol... This is why I lost faith in their balancing team after their amazing patch 7. They really started to do some stupid changes and the bold is just lol... xD
Regarding the Hydralisk, they have the data. Apparently what they see in the beta isn't what the community seems to think. Honestly, if the Hydralisk really proves to be too weak they'll buff them. It's just a numbers thing that can be done in the release game.
and in pro-games I do see that people don't run away from the voidray if they charge. They just stupidly stand there most of the time still thinking they can own it whilst they can't. It's also something that can be easily tweaked. Not really worried at all.
I really like the changes to the widow mine personally. That was my biggest gripe with the nerf since it became so pointless almost versus protoss. Now it's threatening again.
I see hydras is almost every game against skytoss and no one runs away from voidrays, even though they are slow as trash. Its hard to tell what is broken, since everyone seems to thing everything new is terrible.
So people build the one Zerg unit that can attack air, against air, and that means the unit must be fine, since everyone is using it?
We've been at a stage of WoL for the past 8 months at least, where top Zergs have such incredibly good creep spread that it's not uncommon to see half the map covered in creep. The off-creep speed of Hydras is not the only thing that's stopping people from using them. Everyone still recognizes that Hydras are weak.
The so called buff is barely a buff. Hydras were weak on creep to begin with, making them faster off creep didn't change that.
At the same point, just because a lot of people are whining about it on a forum does not mean the unit is broken or useless. Case and point, the marauder: whined about for nearly a year, not broken the entire time.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Regardless though it is awesome to see they are still working on TvP mech, this should (if i did the math right) be able to hold 1 base blink builds a lot easier now that a stalker will die to a widow mine.
You see so much shit about why TvP mech can never work, immortals...skytoss...blah blah blah blah etc. But 1 base blink builds so fucking own mech its ridiculous, even if you don't kill the Terran you can just contain and expo like you didn't even go allin to begin with (with Terran having done a FE like reactor fact into CC or Tank expo or other various type of factory expand builds).
Blizzard loves their SC2 units a lot more than those old crappy brood war units. They'll continue to buff their new units and refuse to touch the old ones. This is why we'll never see any old BW unit return to SC2 in hots or lotv
Really? And here i thought they were just bringing the Lurker/Spider mines/Fire bat/defiler retard cousins in. Good to see that someone thinks that these idea were original!
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
I have a hard time understanding this sentence. First part seems to say : new strats seems OP becauses they are new. Second part seems to say : it's ok for them to be OP so people are using them and try to answer them instead of just play the old plain Wol style (that somehow imply that they know hellbat or oracle (just example) are kinda too powerfull, but they just let them this way for now)
But it may just be that my english understanding is too poor ^_^
Oracle is designed to beat only ground light units AND Oracle cost much more brute cost and tech than 5 marines.
If the Oracle is allowed to be that strong (beat 6 marines at the same time and live with a decent chunk of HP) then why are so many people crying for hellbat nerfs (despite mech as a whole still being bad in both matchups because of Viper and Skytoss)? This is called bias.
As a random player it's pretty obvious that the Oracle seems a bit overly strong, and I think most reasonable people would agree.
I have to say that I find it hilarious how you are talking about bias, when every post of yours is crying about how Terran is weak, while also saying that you are playing random. Yes, Terran should be buffed a lot and everything else should be nerfed into Oblivion, then it would be "fair" for you, I guess.
On February 06 2013 04:37 captainwaffles wrote: Huh... so they'll make a ultra specific change for the widow mine vs toss but not the tank, how many times was it suggested that tanks get some kind of EMP round or buff vs shields so as to not affect other match ups?
Regardless though it is awesome to see they are still working on TvP mech, this should (if i did the math right) be able to hold 1 base blink builds a lot easier now that a stalker will die to a widow mine.
You see so much shit about why TvP mech can never work, immortals...skytoss...blah blah blah blah etc. But 1 base blink builds so fucking own mech its ridiculous, even if you don't kill the Terran you can just contain and expo like you didn't even go allin to begin with (with Terran having done a FE like reactor fact into CC or Tank expo or other various type of factory expand builds).
Blizzard loves their SC2 units a lot more than those old crappy brood war units. They'll continue to buff their new units and refuse to touch the old ones. This is why we'll never see any old BW unit return to SC2 in hots or lotv
Really? And here i thought they were just bringing the Lurker/Spider mines/Fire bat/defiler retard cousins in. Good to see that someone thinks that these idea were original!
That's the joke...
And it's especially humorous because it's not supposed to be a joke.
On February 06 2013 04:31 myRZeth wrote: Kim Hammar @HelloSaSe happy to see david managed to make pvp worse in hots than in wol, congrats
A professional player whining about balance?!?! Cancel the release of HotS, SaSe says it is broken.
How is it a BALANCE whine when he is talking about a MIRROR match?
Professional players complaining about some part of SC2 is like me having coffee on the way to work. It happens every fucking day and everyone should ignore it.
On February 06 2013 04:31 myRZeth wrote: Kim Hammar @HelloSaSe happy to see david managed to make pvp worse in hots than in wol, congrats
A professional player whining about balance?!?! Cancel the release of HotS, SaSe says it is broken.
How is it a BALANCE whine when he is talking about a MIRROR match?
Professional players complaining about some part of SC2 is like me having coffee on the way to work. It happens every fucking day and everyone should ignore it.
Aren't you bored at playing white night, defend Blizzard, complain about complaining all the time?
Agree with the Widow Mine change, disagree with not changing hydra (or more specifically zerg AA) and void ray micro (can't run away when the beam is locked onto you for an extra 2 range, also that beam kills so fast i'm not sure how you're supposed to do that).
Dayvie: We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
And for Protoss air, we are definitely seeing an increased usage in all Stargate units. Some of our thoughts are:
- Tempests maybe do too much damage to non massive units for their supply cost.
- New strategies will seem more OP than not naturally because they're new and they didn't used to do as much as they do now. We think this is a good thing at this point because how else would we introduce new, powerful options if every strategy just remain as it is?
- Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
- Surprisingly a lot of players still don't know that the Voidray ability doesn't do any extra damage vs. Hydralisks nor any other light units. Also makes us think it's way too early to make a judgement in saying Voidrays are OP.
- HotS tournaments are starting up, and we'd like to really make sure how all the new strategies in HotS turn out.
We are and will definitely be paying extremely close attention to the highest level tournament games in HotS in order to really make sure a lot of the community concerns and concerns we have on our end are actual problems.
On February 06 2013 04:31 myRZeth wrote: Kim Hammar @HelloSaSe happy to see david managed to make pvp worse in hots than in wol, congrats
A professional player whining about balance?!?! Cancel the release of HotS, SaSe says it is broken.
How is it a BALANCE whine when he is talking about a MIRROR match?
Professional players complaining about some part of SC2 is like me having coffee on the way to work. It happens every fucking day and everyone should ignore it.
Yep, but it is still you drinking coffee, not you having second breakfast. Just address it properly.
And on another note, Hydras should have some kind of special ability that encourages micro.
For example, I find it odd that Blizzard doesn't seem to think that the position the unit is facing is important. They could create some lore that Hydras developed some kind of hardened backs, and have +2 armor when hit in the back.
Not only it would have made then better at disengaging (a problem against Voids and protoss in general, where you lose too many units), it would present some interesting micro potential.
OR they could introduce a mechanic than because of the serpent-like movement of their bodies, Hydras are specially hard to hit when moving. Giving then +armor, damage reduction or miss chance, whatever.
Any of those two would encourage micro AND help the Hydra be better at what is expected of it.
Alternatively, a boring option would be to just give Hydras +armor Vs Air or something.
Dammit Blizzard can you please wake up and realize that siege tanks are completely useless past one base play in TvP. That's why mech won't work. Hellbats and widow mines won't fix this fundamental problem.
I am slightly disappointed by all these changes, Blizzard needs to realize that moving upgrades to tier 1 doesn't change anything, and doesn't help with Zerg's problems at all. It's not like Zerg players have plenthora of gas in the early game and we can spend it wherever we want. Scouting is not that big of a problem since Overlord speed was buffed a while ago. It's the fact that Zerg has to rush to Tier 2 units to stay alive from the new units that other races got. We need to rush lair for Roach speed if we want to hold the mech drop play, even just hellbats in general, we cannot spend gas on overlord speed or burrow, there's no real need for them Speedling upgrade > Lair > +1/+1 > rest, that's usually how my gas goes regarding vT and vP MUs, and again, it still no changes regarding anti-air capabilites of Zerg. Don't even try to say Corruptor, one small mistake by clicking and your Corruptors clumping up means a free volley from Thors or a HSM in your face. They are just meh AA units, and Hydras are not good vs mass anything in air.
The issue with Widow Mines is not their damage.The change will make them much more viable in the early-mid game till Collosi are out.The issue is their range: How can theybe usefull if every unit in the P ball outrange them mid/late game? One observer will make them visible and Collosi are going to kill them,same for Stalkers,Immortals,VoidRays,Carriers and Tempest.The Archons are the unique unit in the P Antimech composition that doenst outrange the Mine,but the moment they get in range the damage is not enough and Collosi have killed all the mines already and you have lost that supply for free.
I try a lot of composition int he Unit tester and 20 tanks+20 WMines cant beat 15 Immortlas,5 Archons and 3 Collosi with one Observer.Mines dont do any damage and die before hit anything and the siege fire is not enough to stop the P units.Mines are only Viable if P got NO Obs and Collosi,but thats almost impossible
On February 06 2013 04:31 myRZeth wrote: Kim Hammar @HelloSaSe happy to see david managed to make pvp worse in hots than in wol, congrats
A professional player whining about balance?!?! Cancel the release of HotS, SaSe says it is broken.
How is it a BALANCE whine when he is talking about a MIRROR match?
Professional players complaining about some part of SC2 is like me having coffee on the way to work. It happens every fucking day and everyone should ignore it.
Aren't you bored at playing white night, defend Blizzard, complain about complaining all the time?
Hardly ever. And you shouldn’t confused being postive with “white knighting”. Just because I don’t jump on every single hate-wagon against Blizzard just means I am more willing it give their changes a shot. As for tweets by pro-players, I consider them mostly to be worthless because they all whine about balance(except Grubby). Now if Artosis or Tasteless want to say something is broken, I am listening.
There are those of us out there who are very aware of how much we don’t know. Some of us even post on the internet.
Increase animation speed for viking land/takeoff Buff landed vikings widow mine only targets ground/will not auto attack workers widow mine 1 supply + slight damage increase to target unit siege tank increase single target damage or increase damge to shields upgrade hellbat attack speed nerf + can no longer be healed by medivac hellbats can no longer be loaded into medivacs (only in hellion mode) medivac speed boost upgrade from tech lab
On February 06 2013 06:08 ysnake wrote: I am slightly disappointed by all these changes, Blizzard needs to realize that moving upgrades to tier 1 doesn't change anything, and doesn't help with Zerg's problems at all. It's not like Zerg players have plenthora of gas in the early game and we can spend it wherever we want. Scouting is not that big of a problem since Overlord speed was buffed a while ago. It's the fact that Zerg has to rush to Tier 2 units to stay alive from the new units that other races got. We need to rush lair for Roach speed if we want to hold the mech drop play, even just hellbats in general, we cannot spend gas on overlord speed or burrow, there's no real need for them Speedling upgrade > Lair > +1/+1 > rest, that's usually how my gas goes regarding vT and vP MUs, and again, it still no changes regarding anti-air capabilites of Zerg. Don't even try to say Corruptor, one small mistake by clicking and your Corruptors clumping up means a free volley from Thors or a HSM in your face. They are just meh AA units, and Hydras are not good vs mass anything in air.
Actually 5 Roaches stop the Hellbat drop.The drop comes at 7 mins and all you need is a spor,Queen and 5 roaches in only one mineral line.There arent two drops coming at this timing so you can be pretty safe.You dont need Roach speed or Lair because Hellbats arent faster than roaches on creep.
Hydras do pretty well vs Voids,Carriers and Tempest.Corruptors mixed with them will make you win the batle.Vs T you need lot of roaches to snipe Thors and the Corruptors can kill the Vikings,but you should mix this with at least 4-5 BLords.Their broodlings makes Thor very weak...
I like the idea of giving mines +shield damage to make them more useful vs Protoss. I was hoping +shield would come to the siege tank as an upgrade but this is interesting because the widow mine has synergy with mech, bio and air compositions. Edit: +shield damage is also interesting because it means that EMPs effectively reduce the potential mine damage indirectly.
Off topic: I can't believe this thread. So many unsatisfied people. I hope you guys realise that no matter how much balance testing they do during the beta, and how close to perfect it may seem we will break the game within 3 months of it being released. Anyone who is expecting perfect (or even close to it) on release is kidding themselves. There are just too many factors and too much room for improvisation in a game like this for just a limited set of users to test out or even think of all the strong compositions. The meta game we are looking at in the beta does not represent the meta game after 6 months of actual release. Just chill out.
I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
On February 06 2013 04:31 myRZeth wrote: Kim Hammar @HelloSaSe happy to see david managed to make pvp worse in hots than in wol, congrats
A professional player whining about balance?!?! Cancel the release of HotS, SaSe says it is broken.
How is it a BALANCE whine when he is talking about a MIRROR match?
Professional players complaining about some part of SC2 is like me having coffee on the way to work. It happens every fucking day and everyone should ignore it.
Aren't you bored at playing white night, defend Blizzard, complain about complaining all the time?
Hardly ever. And you shouldn’t confused being postive with “white knighting”. Just because I don’t jump on every single hate-wagon against Blizzard just means I am more willing it give their changes a shot. As for tweets by pro-players, I consider them mostly to be worthless because they all whine about balance(except Grubby). Now if Artosis or Tasteless want to say something is broken, I am listening.
There are those of us out there who are very aware of how much we don’t know. Some of us even post on the internet.
Why the heck would you listen to Artosis and Tasteless concerning balance?
Also twitter is made for bitching about things, people should stop taking random 140 character sentences as an proper argument for things (not directed at you specifically).
I'm slowly losing my faith in Zerg, however things can still change yet...
* Staying hopeful*
I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
that s bullshit, blizzard has no idea what they re doing, they don t have high gms and it won t get any better. the path hots is traveling on is terrible, and you claiming we/ i m not even diamond or play hots is offensive. i m a top100gm atm playing the beta since it came out. and trust me the hots ladder is pretty hard with all the good players.
its so insanely disappointing he thinks hydras are fine. omg he is a GM player and must know that mass airtoss is unbeatable with HT support which RAPE hydras. even voidrays on their own rape hydras. everything kills hydras so easy, zerg has huge AA problem, mutas are too strong zvz, lairtech zerg sucks....hmm what could you do...maybe....buff....hydras to fix ALL those problems?!?!?
at least my T gets better and is now masters level after 2 days...lol zerg is so fucked ^^
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
On February 06 2013 06:15 UnDeaDMoNKeY wrote: They should:
Increase animation speed for viking land/takeoff Buff landed vikings widow mine only targets ground/will not auto attack workers widow mine 1 supply + slight damage increase to target unit siege tank increase single target damage or increase damge to shields upgrade hellbat attack speed nerf + can no longer be healed by medivac hellbats can no longer be loaded into medivacs (only in hellion mode) medivac speed boost upgrade from tech lab
this would make mech viable imho
Nice joke. Thats would most ridiculous nerf in gaming-history. Pls stop crying and l2p your race, thanks.
On February 06 2013 06:21 Sc2Wrath wrote: I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I hope you're aware than Dustin, Kim and the rest of the team base balance on the massive amounts of data they collect from us playing games. I hope you're aware that Dustin is not ashamed of his rank, and clearly does not base balance on low level play. I hope your aware that when the game goes retail the massive increase in data collected from the massive non-beta player base will be the first time Blizzard has real data to analyse to help balance the game. I hope your aware than BW and most other RTS require balancing after release for the reasons mentioned above.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
that s bullshit, blizzard has no idea what they re doing, they don t have high gms and it won t get any better. the path hots is traveling on is terrible, and you claiming we/ i m not even diamond or play hots is offensive. i m a top100gm atm playing the beta since it came out. and trust me the hots ladder is pretty hard with all the good players.
Ladder being difficult has no relation to my argument what so ever. Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Being a large multi million dollar company, they have resources to fund certain activities to create and sustain competitive advantage. This could mean employing well qualified players to play the game full time who give back educational responses/reports. The list goes on if you know what I mean.
I'm sorry, but if you're concerned marginal balance updates like these or specific unit balance issues will drastically affect your gameplay, you're putting too many eggs in one basket. If that doesn't make sense to you: Diversify your gameplay and explore NEW OPTIONS in the metagame. Others and myself tend to repeat these specific parts: 1.) it's a god damn beta 2.) They know what the fuck they're doing! People play this game with such a self-centered perspective...
On February 06 2013 04:31 myRZeth wrote: Kim Hammar @HelloSaSe happy to see david managed to make pvp worse in hots than in wol, congrats
A professional player whining about balance?!?! Cancel the release of HotS, SaSe says it is broken.
How is it a BALANCE whine when he is talking about a MIRROR match?
Professional players complaining about some part of SC2 is like me having coffee on the way to work. It happens every fucking day and everyone should ignore it.
Aren't you bored at playing white night, defend Blizzard, complain about complaining all the time?
Hardly ever. And you shouldn’t confused being postive with “white knighting”. Just because I don’t jump on every single hate-wagon against Blizzard just means I am more willing it give their changes a shot. As for tweets by pro-players, I consider them mostly to be worthless because they all whine about balance(except Grubby). Now if Artosis or Tasteless want to say something is broken, I am listening.
There are those of us out there who are very aware of how much we don’t know. Some of us even post on the internet.
Why the heck would you listen to Artosis and Tasteless concerning balance?
Also twitter is made for bitching about things, people should stop taking random 140 character sentences as an proper argument for things (not directed at you specifically).
Both are watch a lot of SC2 and know how the game is played. Even Tasteless, despite what people say. I am far more interested in what they have to say about balance and other issues with the game, rather than some professional player who wants to win his next big event. In general, I only listen to people who I believe are able to take objectively about the game, rather than focus on things that would make the game easier for them.
Also, I agree, twitter is trash and used to whine about stuff.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
You also got to realize the focus these last few months is to wrap up everything except balance. Balance effort has severe diminishing returns at this point, because A) people are never happy about balance B) it's very unpredictable and efforts now may exasperate problems or be worthless when the metagame shifts and C) there's not a big enough gamer pool to start getting statistically certain trends.
On February 06 2013 06:21 Sc2Wrath wrote: I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I hope you're aware than Dustin, Kim and the rest of the team base balance on the massive amounts of data they collect from us playing games. I hope you're aware that Dustin is not ashamed of his rank, and clearly does not base balance on low level play. I hope your aware that when the game goes retail the massive increase in data collected from the massive non-beta player base will be the first time Blizzard has real data to analyse to help balance the game. I hope your aware than BW and most other RTS require balancing after release for the reasons mentioned above.
Data doesn't mean shit if you cannot assess and apply the data properly. Moreover, you're presuming that the data they are using is indicative of balance which it may or may not. I know one thing is for certain, that is the lead balance designer of the game is a gold level terran. This fact alone is enough for me to have no faith in Blizzard. Honestly, what world do you live in? It took them over a fucking year for them to remove close positions on some of their ladder maps and you think they know how to balance a game? In what world would a competent balance designer would look at close positions on shattered temple and think it was balanced, so much to the pt where it stayed on the ladder for over a year? They have done nothing but consistently fuck up matchups or not address glaring issues over and over again. Blizzard is utterly incompetent.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
What pro are they listening to not the ones that are playing it it seems
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
Whilst I agree that these changes have helped the mid game somewhat, it feels very lackluster. I guess a lot of that is opinion though. I've tried the Hydralisk, and I must say I don't find it to be as bad as many say, however it isn't as strong as people would like it to be.
The mutalisk is fine is also fine I believe, widow mines can be a pain, but isn't always as bad as made out to be either.
The Swarm Host is another story I find. I've seen blades thread, and watched the pack. It still feels very all or nothing, credit for him to get it working, but I feel that not only could roaches trade in many situations, it is also very boring to watch, wave after wave. I try hard not to use it, as it is very boring. Not everyone may feel that way though I guess.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
And the majority of coaches for NFL football teams were not professional players. None of the referees have never played professionally in the sport they oversee. The people who build formula-1 race cars do not drive them. Judges rule on area’s of law they never practiced in every day. Every game designer for every game made currently played cannot play at the level of the most skilled armature players, let alone the professionals.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Please watch this video and say again that Blizzard knows how to balance the game (5:18):
On February 06 2013 06:21 Sc2Wrath wrote: I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
On February 06 2013 06:31 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I hope you're aware than Dustin, Kim and the rest of the team base balance on the massive amounts of data they collect from us playing games. I hope you're aware that Dustin is not ashamed of his rank, and clearly does not base balance on low level play. I hope your aware that when the game goes retail the massive increase in data collected from the massive non-beta player base will be the first time Blizzard has real data to analyse to help balance the game. I hope your aware than BW and most other RTS require balancing after release for the reasons mentioned above.
Data doesn't mean shit if you cannot assess and apply the data properly. Moreover, you're presuming that the data they are using is indicative of balance which it may or may not. I know one thing is for certain, that is the lead balance designer of the game is a gold level terran. This fact alone is enough for me to have no faith in Blizzard. Honestly, what world do you live in? It took them over a fucking year for them to remove close positions on some of their ladder maps and you think they know how to balance a game? In what world would a competent balance designer would look at close positions on shattered temple and think it was balanced, so much to the pt where it stayed on the ladder for over a year? They have done nothing but consistently fuck up matchups or not address glaring issues over and over again. Blizzard is utterly incompetent.
that is no argument at all. DK isn't playing sc2 full time he is actually working ons sc2 fulltime. why would he be gm? because he knows theblacksheepwall?! or thepoweroverwhelming?! Certainly not. Why would the lead designer need to be a gm? maybe his apm are below 20 or his decision making is TERRIBLE in certain situations. who cares, it says nothing about his abilities to do his job. period.They have testers and statistic guys to analyse hundreds of thousands of games and yet the whole system MUST be flawed because one guy is gold. It's like saying the manager of a soccer team needs to be the best player in the world... HotS ais tons of fun, it has improved massively during beta and if u want to criticise do it in a constructive way or leave, coz otherwise u r not gonna achieve anything even if u had beneficial ideas.
On February 06 2013 06:21 Sc2Wrath wrote: I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
On February 06 2013 06:31 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I hope you're aware than Dustin, Kim and the rest of the team base balance on the massive amounts of data they collect from us playing games. I hope you're aware that Dustin is not ashamed of his rank, and clearly does not base balance on low level play. I hope your aware that when the game goes retail the massive increase in data collected from the massive non-beta player base will be the first time Blizzard has real data to analyse to help balance the game. I hope your aware than BW and most other RTS require balancing after release for the reasons mentioned above.
Data doesn't mean shit if you cannot assess and apply the data properly. Moreover, you're presuming that the data they are using is indicative of balance which it may or may not. I know one thing is for certain, that is the lead balance designer of the game is a gold level terran. This fact alone is enough for me to have no faith in Blizzard. Honestly, what world do you live in? It took them over a fucking year for them to remove close positions on some of their ladder maps and you think they know how to balance a game? In what world would a competent balance designer would look at close positions on shattered temple and think it was balanced, so much to the pt where it stayed on the ladder for over a year? They have done nothing but consistently fuck up matchups or not address glaring issues over and over again. Blizzard is utterly incompetent.
Lol. Everybody knows that Dustin Browder (as well as everybody else in the balance team) does not have a main race. Well, I guess everybody that does not miss such facts over unreflected hatred...
Lol@ blizzards justification for Hydras not being weak.
The reason why everyone is building Hydralisks now is because THAT'S THE ONLY THING LEFT THAT WASN'T NERFED... Infestors- Nerfed Infested Terrans- Nerfed Corruptors- completely demolished by the new Void Ray. (And no innovative or promised changes to this boring unit, which has been discussed by Dustin before the beta was even released) Queens- too slow Mutas-ripped to shreds by Phoenix and Carriers
Hydras are the only unit left that is even remotely cost effective for Zerg. It's not like Zerg has a choice in the matter when all other AA options have been nerfed into the ground or just flat out lose.
On February 06 2013 06:21 Sc2Wrath wrote: I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
On February 06 2013 06:31 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I hope you're aware than Dustin, Kim and the rest of the team base balance on the massive amounts of data they collect from us playing games. I hope you're aware that Dustin is not ashamed of his rank, and clearly does not base balance on low level play. I hope your aware that when the game goes retail the massive increase in data collected from the massive non-beta player base will be the first time Blizzard has real data to analyse to help balance the game. I hope your aware than BW and most other RTS require balancing after release for the reasons mentioned above.
Data doesn't mean shit if you cannot assess and apply the data properly. Moreover, you're presuming that the data they are using is indicative of balance which it may or may not. I know one thing is for certain, that is the lead balance designer of the game is a gold level terran. This fact alone is enough for me to have no faith in Blizzard. Honestly, what world do you live in? It took them over a fucking year for them to remove close positions on some of their ladder maps and you think they know how to balance a game? In what world would a competent balance designer would look at close positions on shattered temple and think it was balanced, so much to the pt where it stayed on the ladder for over a year? They have done nothing but consistently fuck up matchups or not address glaring issues over and over again. Blizzard is utterly incompetent.
that is no argument at all. DK isn't playing sc2 full time he is actually working ons sc2 fulltime. why would he be gm? because he knows theblacksheepwall?! or thepoweroverwhelming?! Certainly not. Why would the lead designer need to be a gm? maybe his apm are below 20 or his decision making is TERRIBLE in certain situations. who cares, it says nothing about his abilities to do his job. period.They have testers and statistic guys to analyse hundreds of thousands of games and yet the whole system MUST be flawed because one guy is gold. It's like saying the manager of a soccer team needs to be the best player in the world... HotS ais tons of fun, it has improved massively during beta and if u want to criticise do it in a constructive way or leave, coz otherwise u r not gonna achieve anything even if u had beneficial ideas.
For some reasons there is a small section of the community who things that people who make games should also be at the top level of play, for some unknown reason. After all, that standard does not work if you apply it to any other profession in the entire world. People who write the rules in sports are not the professional players. People who write laws are not the best attorneys in the world. But for some reason, you can use the fact that DK and DB are not GM on ever ladder is a reason why they cannot design a game.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
On February 06 2013 06:21 Sc2Wrath wrote: I can't believe they want to Nerf the Infestor some more, whilst still not getting other compensation on Lair tech units. I guess I can hope Swarm host is worked out, and becomes useful.
Hydra and Swarm Host and Muta changes are enough mid game strength. Hydra speed might not look like much on paper, but when combined with Roaches or Swarm Hosts you have a very powerful force. It's more about the composition synergy making them viable than direct changes to the Hydra.
The swarm host is useful. People are just slow to learn to use it properly. Check out blades thread and massive swarm host replay pack. As you can see from his replays the true strength of Zerg comes from using a big mix of Zerg units. I feel that many Zerg players think that if they can't mass 1-2 units and win that Zerg is broken, and hope that changes with HoTS.
On February 06 2013 06:31 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I hope you're aware than Dustin, Kim and the rest of the team base balance on the massive amounts of data they collect from us playing games. I hope you're aware that Dustin is not ashamed of his rank, and clearly does not base balance on low level play. I hope your aware that when the game goes retail the massive increase in data collected from the massive non-beta player base will be the first time Blizzard has real data to analyse to help balance the game. I hope your aware than BW and most other RTS require balancing after release for the reasons mentioned above.
Data doesn't mean shit if you cannot assess and apply the data properly. Moreover, you're presuming that the data they are using is indicative of balance which it may or may not. I know one thing is for certain, that is the lead balance designer of the game is a gold level terran. This fact alone is enough for me to have no faith in Blizzard. Honestly, what world do you live in? It took them over a fucking year for them to remove close positions on some of their ladder maps and you think they know how to balance a game? In what world would a competent balance designer would look at close positions on shattered temple and think it was balanced, so much to the pt where it stayed on the ladder for over a year? They have done nothing but consistently fuck up matchups or not address glaring issues over and over again. Blizzard is utterly incompetent.
Lol. Everybody knows that Dustin Browder (as well as everybody else in the balance team) does not have a main race. Well, I guess everybody that does not miss such facts over unreflected hatred...
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Yes indeed very funny. That zerg did not scout the all in by the terran? Not to include terrible micro by the zerg. As you can see, the attempt to bring overlord speed to tier 1 will help to provide scouting abilities to detect these all in plays.
Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Yes indeed very funny. That zerg did not scout the all in by the terran? Not to include terrible micro by the zerg. As you can see, the attempt to bring overlord speed to tier 1 will help to provide scouting abilities to detect these all in plays.
All in? Terran has 3 CC while Zerg is on 2 bases... LOL...
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Yes indeed very funny. That zerg did not scout the all in by the terran? Not to include terrible micro by the zerg. As you can see, the attempt to bring overlord speed to tier 1 will help to provide scouting abilities to detect these all in plays.
All in? Terran has 3 CC while Zerg is on 2 bases... LOL...
umm I don't see the second cc built until 9 :19 in game. Please share the stuff your smoking, must be pretty good.
On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
I could not agree more. I often disagree with the decisions Blizzard makes, but they spend a lot of time and effort developing this game. Blizzard wants Starcraft 2 to be a game that is fun and engaging to watch and play as much as we do.
On February 06 2013 07:15 sagefreke wrote: Lol@ blizzards justification for Hydras not being weak.
The reason why everyone is building Hydralisks now is because THAT'S THE ONLY THING LEFT THAT WASN'T NERFED... Infestors- Nerfed Infested Terrans- Nerfed Corruptors- completely demolished by the new Void Ray. (And no innovative or promised changes to this boring unit, which has been discussed by Dustin before the beta was even released) Queens- too slow Mutas-ripped to shreds by Phoenix and Carriers
Hydras are the only unit left that is even remotely cost effective for Zerg. It's not like Zerg has a choice in the matter when all other AA options have been nerfed into the ground or just flat out lose.
On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
I could not agree more. I often disagree with the decisions Blizzard makes, but they spend a lot of time and effort developing this game. Blizzard wants Starcraft 2 to be a game that is fun and engaging to watch and play as much as we do.
Its a shame they don't deliver.
I've been waiting for the game to get "fixed" for 3 years and in my time I've only seen them break it even more.
The only real progress I've seen to date was global play.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
User was temp banned for this post.
Not saying that this is impossible to hold, but I literally am laughing my ass off that your "professional level micro" response, as dropping Hellbats at two places at once and clicking hold position is actually a micro... :D
I love to see these hilarious posts once in a while, problem is I am seeing too many of them every day.
On February 06 2013 08:25 Zombo Joe wrote: Its a shame they don't deliver.
I've been waiting for the game to get "fixed" for 3 years and in my time I've only seen them break it even more.
The only real progress I've seen to date was global play.
So, resume from replay isn't good? With such high standards you might as well not wait at all, they won't catch up with you.
I think HotS is heading in a much better direction than WoL. More viable strats, more emphasis on harass. I don't think its perfect, but I do think it has slowly but surely moved in a better direction.
As for the latest announcement--buffing mines vs Toss units is an odd decision. I mean, it's one way to make mech more viable vs Protoss, and I suppose Widow Mines at least aren't an a-move unit...
But I would frankly prefer that Siege Tanks get this +damage vs shields buff. Mines as the core mech unit, rather than as a supplement to tanks, doesn't seem right to me.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
User was temp banned for this post.
I literally am laughing my ass off that your "professional level micro" response, as dropping Hellbats at two places at once and clicking hold position is actually a micro... :D
I love to see these hilarious posts once in a while, problem is I am seeing too many of them every day.
Considering QXC is known for his phenomenal micro, and the fact that controlling two drops simultaneously in real-time while macroing back home at a GM level is reasonably more micro than you've ever done in your life (that goes for almost everyone here) I'd say you're in no position to be condescending toward QXC, nor the poster. Rudely laughing at someone because you can't think of a response to something you don't like while also disrespecting professional players in place of an proper rebuttal doesn't get you very far.
On February 06 2013 08:39 awesomoecalypse wrote: As for the latest announcement--buffing mines vs Toss units is an odd decision. I mean, it's one way to make mech more viable vs Protoss, and I suppose Widow Mines at least aren't an a-move unit...
But I would frankly prefer that Siege Tanks get this +damage vs shields buff. Mines as the core mech unit, rather than as a supplement to tanks, doesn't seem right to me.
Very well said. If they're going to start giving out +shield adjustments then it definitely should be to the Siege Tank, and not the Window Mine. I also wonder how this will interact with hardened shields.
On February 06 2013 08:39 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think HotS is heading in a much better direction than WoL. More viable strats, more emphasis on harass. I don't think its perfect, but I do think it has slowly but surely moved in a better direction.
As for the latest announcement--buffing mines vs Toss units is an odd decision. I mean, it's one way to make mech more viable vs Protoss, and I suppose Widow Mines at least aren't an a-move unit...
But I would frankly prefer that Siege Tanks get this +damage vs shields buff. Mines as the core mech unit, rather than as a supplement to tanks, doesn't seem right to me.
The bonus shield damage on mines is primary target only, not splash. Because of this it does not make mines the core of the mech, it just allows you to use them to snipe specific units like immortals to help your tank ball against an a-move.
CHOOSING A TARGET WITH MINES: You can but it takes micro. When a unit gets in range of the mine it primes but does not fire for about a second. During this time if you target a different unit it resets the priming and targets the new unit. If you continue to change targets (even to ones out of range) over and over it will never fire. Then when you are ready you can either just stop resetting it and it will launch at the last target you gave it if its in range, or a random target if the target you last selected was out of range.
You can even use this mine hold micro on multiple mines, but it is a little tricky to give them all their own targets when you are ready for them to fire. Also note that while primed mines are visible (but still not targetable without detection) by the enemy. So if he is paying attention he will know you are holding.
Also note that with the normal behaviour of mines 2 mines in range of an overlord will fire 1 at a time until it is dead. Not at the same time. But if you have 2 mines on hold and then target them both at the overlord they will fire at the same time and kill the overlord. Because of this you can one shot units like immortals that normally take multiple mines, but if you are too slow during hold micro all of your held mines may fire at the same unit (eg a settling) and do significantly less damage than you untended. This can be avoided by using hold micro on units which are out side of the mines range.
I do like the other changes, however. Spores getting + bio seems a bit weird, but we'll see. Maybe it can at least buy time to get enough infestors/hydras out?
Sort of happy about the Envision buff. It makes Stargate a bit more viable, might even be enough to entirely skip Robo sometimes. 60 seconds of detection is a looooooooot
Buffing mines vs P is a good idea but i do not think it will make mech tvp more viable tbh for all previous reasons listed everywhere by everyone ever.
Mech tvp has problems against tempests...you end up 200/200 maxed with 15-25 siege tanks and Protoss can end up maxed 200/200 with a huge ball of tempests...tanks don't shoot up...there's an intrinsic problem there. Tempests are too supply efficient in end-game armies.
Then of course there's that tanks damage is pretty bad against everything, and immortals hard counter all of mech.
Also, the longer the game goes the less mines you want because they die pretty easily to anyone low masters and up and supply is better invested in other stuff...but meh, any buff to mech tvp is better than nothing at this point.
I'm usually a blizzard supporter and faithful that they will come through, especially with expansions as they have a track record of releasing excellent expansions that really help their games.
However, as I see these changes I'm slowly losing faith. It seems right now, and I said it earlier, that they are just patching themselves in a circle. Refusing to go back on certain changes, and coming up with solutions that either create new problems or are simply odd/dumb fixes. I mean, spores getting more damage vs. bio to help ZvZ mutas? Really? That is the best idea we have? Not only is it boring, not only does it lack creativity, you are patching the game and changing damage amounts to fix one small instance. I wonder why not bring a unit like the scourge back that had a lot of creative uses and could help counter Mutas and Skytoss?
I think in general they are trying to hard to micro manage every patch and ever slight imbalance instead of just looking at making the game overall more fun, overall more dynamic, overall balanced, and then allow the players and future patches to work out the kinks.
I just felt like with Broodwar more of an emphasis was put on adding units that made the game more fun, adding units that were cool, adding units with unique spells and abilities. Heck the players hardly even knew at the time what would end up being good or bad(nobody used a Dark Archon, or realized the full potential of a lurker at release). It seems like they are trying to make HotS a giant WoL patch, instead of making HotS a way to add all the cool units they didn't get into WoL.
Where has Blizzard gone in terms of creativity and being an innovator? I understand wanting to separate from BW, I get that, but they seem to be going back in time instead of being forward thinking. They are having the same issue with Diablo 3, which has great sales but the end result was not very good. Are they simply realizing that for their bottom line dumbing down the games for a wider audience is the way to go? Maybe that is the case. Sometimes I wish I paid for Battle.Net because maybe they would value the online competitive community more and care less about the box sales and more about longer term health of games.
I will certainly buy HotS and enjoy playing it and I do think they are making some good changes. But I remember when BW came out(Yeah I'm an old gamer) how fun it was to use lurkers, corsairs, marines with medics even. I don't know what about HotS has me excited. Hydra speed? Viper is cool but that is the only new unit I like. Oracle? When I use the Oracle all I can think of is "it's a ship with a freakin' laser beam on it's head" in a Dr. Evil voice. What a dull unit. They had a chance to add 1-2 units for each race that was micro intensive and a lot of fun to play and they just struck out. Tempest fun? An A-move unit that will be impossible to balance... when we already had the carrier which COULD be setup to do the same thing and be more micro intensive, more fun to play, and look cooler?
I don't know, just seems like Blizzard has lost the edge they once had to think outside the box some. Company seems like it would be a boring place to work these days,
Oh wow, I just reread the OP with the updates. I gotta say, some of the stuff feels very weird - not balancewise speaking, just speaking from understandability. mines doing extra vs shields? spores doing extra vs bio? There are too many "armor" types around that simply aren't armor. I wish they would try to fix all of the stuff they are doing with just 2-3 armor types and just drop certain stuff like "+vs psionic", "+vs bio", "+vs mechanical", "+vs shields" from the balance. I believe a new player and casual spectator will absolutly not be able to get a thing that is going on and it will be really hard to get into the game without investing massive amounts of time.
On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
And yet despite all of these "meetings" and money spent on development and research, they remain blissfully unaware of the real problems of the game and manage to make themselves laughing stocks whenever they attempt to discuss anything with the current meta and what might be an issue.
Having spores do +dmg against bio and mines +dmg against shields feels really icky to me. Maybe the changes could work out for the better, but it certainly takes away from elegant game design.
On February 06 2013 10:18 happyness wrote: Having spores do +dmg against bio and mines +dmg against shields feels really icky to me. Maybe the changes could work out for the better, but it certainly takes away from elegant game design.
Yeah, I kinda feel that.. But Archons already do bonus to bio, and the mine attack is a spell so it's kinda like EMP or something doing shield damage.
I'm glad DK and other people at Blizzard are feeling the tempest does too much damage to non massive. I'm not sure if it's just me, but I feel vikings, the one anti air I have that can hit tempests at a decent rate actually lose to tempests unless it's about a 4-1 ratio. It'll be interesting to see what they can do for them and with tempests getting a nerf Carriers should become the core of tossair again.
Also mine getting +to shields is a great, great thing. Mines are "toss" against toss right now and they can't even kill a zealot, that's how awful and pointless it is to even use them. Hopefully with a good buff to shields they might look into giving tank back normal damage to shields eventually if they deem it necessary.
On February 06 2013 10:18 happyness wrote: Having spores do +dmg against bio and mines +dmg against shields feels really icky to me. Maybe the changes could work out for the better, but it certainly takes away from elegant game design.
Yeah, I kinda feel that.. But Archons already do bonus to bio, and the mine attack is a spell so it's kinda like EMP or something doing shield damage.
They do feel a little weird though.
I'd rather the mine do shield penetration than +shield damage...
buffing mines vs p is gonna make mid game much stronger but hardly effect late game, buff tank damage vs shields if you wanna actually buff mech vs toss.
On February 06 2013 09:47 FLuE wrote: I'm usually a blizzard supporter and faithful that they will come through, especially with expansions as they have a track record of releasing excellent expansions that really help their games.
However, as I see these changes I'm slowly losing faith. It seems right now, and I said it earlier, that they are just patching themselves in a circle. Refusing to go back on certain changes, and coming up with solutions that either create new problems or are simply odd/dumb fixes. I mean, spores getting more damage vs. bio to help ZvZ mutas? Really? That is the best idea we have? Not only is it boring, not only does it lack creativity, you are patching the game and changing damage amounts to fix one small instance. I wonder why not bring a unit like the scourge back that had a lot of creative uses and could help counter Mutas and Skytoss?
I think in general they are trying to hard to micro manage every patch and ever slight imbalance instead of just looking at making the game overall more fun, overall more dynamic, overall balanced, and then allow the players and future patches to work out the kinks.
I just felt like with Broodwar more of an emphasis was put on adding units that made the game more fun, adding units that were cool, adding units with unique spells and abilities. Heck the players hardly even knew at the time what would end up being good or bad(nobody used a Dark Archon, or realized the full potential of a lurker at release). It seems like they are trying to make HotS a giant WoL patch, instead of making HotS a way to add all the cool units they didn't get into WoL.
Where has Blizzard gone in terms of creativity and being an innovator? I understand wanting to separate from BW, I get that, but they seem to be going back in time instead of being forward thinking. They are having the same issue with Diablo 3, which has great sales but the end result was not very good. Are they simply realizing that for their bottom line dumbing down the games for a wider audience is the way to go? Maybe that is the case. Sometimes I wish I paid for Battle.Net because maybe they would value the online competitive community more and care less about the box sales and more about longer term health of games.
I will certainly buy HotS and enjoy playing it and I do think they are making some good changes. But I remember when BW came out(Yeah I'm an old gamer) how fun it was to use lurkers, corsairs, marines with medics even. I don't know what about HotS has me excited. Hydra speed? Viper is cool but that is the only new unit I like. Oracle? When I use the Oracle all I can think of is "it's a ship with a freakin' laser beam on it's head" in a Dr. Evil voice. What a dull unit. They had a chance to add 1-2 units for each race that was micro intensive and a lot of fun to play and they just struck out. Tempest fun? An A-move unit that will be impossible to balance... when we already had the carrier which COULD be setup to do the same thing and be more micro intensive, more fun to play, and look cooler?
I don't know, just seems like Blizzard has lost the edge they once had to think outside the box some. Company seems like it would be a boring place to work these days,
I hate people who just talk about SC & BW was at all time the most perfect game ever, when I think they're just mistaking actual facts with just nostalgia for the old days when Starcraft had for most of us this non-competitive flavour (aah the times when BW actually felt like a fun game, thanks to LAN mostly... Where even the most broken shit was just so fun to abuse and noone complained about it).
On February 06 2013 10:55 EleanorRIgby wrote: buffing mines vs p is gonna make mid game much stronger but hardly effect late game, buff tank damage vs shields if you wanna actually buff mech vs toss.
I think a buff in the midgame will be nice. It'll mean you can actually leave your base as mech maybe :p
I've been winning with 6 fact all ins on 2 base and also 3 fact off of one base but my opponents are not exactly amazing as I'm playing Diamond players. Also it'll be a nice buff for mines against skytoss which will help with the anti air maybe.
We're also playing with increasing the single target damage of Widow Mines from 125 to 125 + 35 shields to give it some more strength vs. Protoss.
Pathetic. That's all what they can come up with. All these cheesy fixes, +15 damage vs bio for spors, +35 damage vs shields for mine. These people are really lazy with their "easy out" tweaks.
We're also playing with increasing the single target damage of Widow Mines from 125 to 125 + 35 shields to give it some more strength vs. Protoss.
Pathetic. That's all what they can come up with. All these cheesy fixes, +15 damage vs bio for spors, +35 damage vs shields for mine. These people are really lazy with their "easy out" tweaks.
I like your words, "easy out tweaks".
They probably can come up with "+ 15 damage vs Zerg" and "+35 damage vs Protoss"
I like how David Kim sounds pissed that pro player ain't doing the kitting back micro against charge up Voidray trick. No second thought to read behind my sentence, I just find the idea of him getting angry at that funny. ^^
On February 06 2013 11:35 Noocta wrote: I like how David Kim sounds pissed that pro player ain't doing the kitting back micro against charge up Voidray trick. No second thought to read behind my sentence, I just find the idea of him getting angry at that funny. ^^
You can't kite back against it. Once it's attack starts the range extends, much like a carriers. They're being completely moronic about it. You want people to run away from it then you have to remove the extended range. Otherwise your army is still going to get obliterated.
I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
It's just that Voids have a range slop of 2 (as opposed to most unit 1,) and can attack while moving... I think. Or do they actually have an extended range while charged?
Voids are very good at chasing units, anyway. It's tough to retreat against them although that's what the charge thing would encourage you to do.
(Related to this, I was thinking it could be cool to have them have a speed reduction while charged or something,)
On February 06 2013 11:35 Noocta wrote: I like how David Kim sounds pissed that pro player ain't doing the kitting back micro against charge up Voidray trick. No second thought to read behind my sentence, I just find the idea of him getting angry at that funny. ^^
You can't kite back against it. Once it's attack starts the range extends, much like a carriers. They're being completely moronic about it. You want people to run away from it then you have to remove the extended range. Otherwise your army is still going to get obliterated.
yes because no one is bad enough to start up the charge before you hit something. And those 2 range the opponent has to run away is death for any armored unit. But if they remove the range extension Voidrays will become horrible vs Terran and Toss in micro situations. I think the way the Voidray attack works is something really interesting and different and gives it alot of utility and should not be lost at any cost, even if people won't use them for 5 more years.
Hots people still use the Voidray horribly, but atleast they get the charge right now. I think they should have just went for a fleetbeacon upgrade that enhances the Voidrays charge. So they become easier to use when the Voidray is massed. Though I always liked that the Voidray lost half of its damage potential when used by a noob. Correct use in professional gaming would create epicness since it would be in no way easy to recreate.
But the hard to use units seem to all share the fate of being made easier to use, because macro units just run over you while you are busy microing your heart out.
It is not a bad thing though, bw showed that a macro centric game can be really entertaining. The thing is in BW they left the micro units in and kept them super strong.
On February 06 2013 12:15 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
Yes, Blizzard bascially want you to pull your army back until the charge is over. This is what blizzard think micro is all about.
On February 06 2013 12:15 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
Yes, Blizzard bascially want you to pull your army back until the charge is over. This is what blizzard think micro is all about.
Too bad you will be caught by force field and everything will die unless the engagement will happen.
On February 06 2013 12:15 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
Yes, Blizzard bascially want you to pull your army back until the charge is over. This is what blizzard think micro is all about.
Too bad you will be caught by force field and everything will die unless the engagement will happen.
Note that in a world of 'Perfect Engagements' everything is OP.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
It's completely ridiculous how many trolls are on this damn forum. You cant link ONE video and suggest it as the only empirical and substantial evidence. He had barely any roaches and, I'm sorry, a queen should not be the end-all/defend-all unit. if you get caught with your pants down, you fucking lose, end of story. You witnessed 2+ (damn near three, I mean an equivalent amount of marines/marauders would have done just as much damage.) expansions worth of army fly into a base and do damage, yes, that SHOULD happen. (800 in hellbats, 200/200 in medivacs and 150/100 in armory tech) thats a hell of an investment, easily identified with scouting and thus preventable. I wont sit here and coddle the babies all night and remind them that hellbats are slow, and that engagements should always be concise and that the terran likely has no units what so ever defending his base.
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
I quite like the widow mine change, I like any attempt to make mech more viable in TvP. I feel that the +shield damage could have been moved to tanks instead though. (I was thinking blizzard won't have any race specific damage implemented)
And the god damn void ray needs to be fixed. It's the same as immortal sentries all in. You can't always have room to bait charge/FF or micro away. Not to mention void ray don't need energy to charge up and it is damn strong without charge.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
It's completely ridiculous how many trolls are on this damn forum. You cant link ONE video and suggest it as the only empirical and substantial evidence. He had barely any roaches and, I'm sorry, a queen should not be the end-all/defend-all unit. if you get caught with your pants down, you fucking lose, end of story. You witnessed 2+ (damn near three, I mean an equivalent amount of marines/marauders would have done just as much damage.) expansions worth of army fly into a base and do damage, yes, that SHOULD happen. (800 in hellbats, 200/200 in medivacs and 150/100 in armory tech) thats a hell of an investment, easily identified with scouting and thus preventable. I wont sit here and coddle the babies all night and remind them that hellbats are slow, and that engagements should always be concise and that the terran likely has no units what so ever defending his base.
Honestly, don't waste your time. If you played WoW must have noticed the pattern every time there's an expansion / change / nerf / buff :-)
If next month had been the release of BW they'd all be saying the same: "OMG RAN INTO 8 LURKERS AND EVERYTHING DIED OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP BLARRGGGG".
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
All the "specialized damage" is a terrible idea, because it makes the game more complicated than it should be. Buffing the Widow Mine specifically against Protoss will not do much because the Widow Mine isnt an "army unit" and only an assassin type unit ... unless it becomes so good that you can win by mass producing them ... which would be another terrible thing.
On February 06 2013 14:39 Rabiator wrote: All the "specialized damage" is a terrible idea, because it makes the game more complicated than it should be. Buffing the Widow Mine specifically against Protoss will not do much because the Widow Mine isnt an "army unit" and only an assassin type unit ... unless it becomes so good that you can win by mass producing them ... which would be another terrible thing.
Yup. I've been saying this since release. They need to do away with the armor, light, bio, massive, psionic damage bonuses. Small, medium, and large is all bw had and it was much better. It wasn't so much rock > paper > scissors in terms of units. You could make particular things work. Everything kinda came out even in the end depending on how it was microed. In this you know going into a fight if you're going to get destroyed or not based on unit composition.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
It's completely ridiculous how many trolls are on this damn forum. You cant link ONE video and suggest it as the only empirical and substantial evidence. He had barely any roaches and, I'm sorry, a queen should not be the end-all/defend-all unit. if you get caught with your pants down, you fucking lose, end of story. You witnessed 2+ (damn near three, I mean an equivalent amount of marines/marauders would have done just as much damage.) expansions worth of army fly into a base and do damage, yes, that SHOULD happen. (800 in hellbats, 200/200 in medivacs and 150/100 in armory tech) thats a hell of an investment, easily identified with scouting and thus preventable. I wont sit here and coddle the babies all night and remind them that hellbats are slow, and that engagements should always be concise and that the terran likely has no units what so ever defending his base.
They guy who was commentating on the video was actually the zerg in the game and he didn't cry out IMBA, just said it was very difficult to deal with. I'm trying to find ways to deal with this and I think a spine in each mineral line and spore can deal with it pretty nicely. To be honest any sig. nerf to hellbats will make that unit obsolete (just my opinion). If there actually is an issue its the medevac speedboost as it can kind of ignore static defenses. Why should everything that is difficult to hold in the early game be nerfed to oblivion. I love watching starcraft 2 but I don't want spend 2 hours watching a bo3 because every game is a 40 minute turtle-fest ending in 1 a-attack battle of death balls.
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
I disagree. I honestly don't see how they could fix it if it does end up being a problem. The thing is not many zergs do this (on streams I see nobody do this). It's strong, but I don't think it'll be necessarily imbalanced. If every zerg was doing this and toss was getting smashed every game I might agree it was to strong, but there's got to be a reason no zergs are doing this at the pro level.
I see TLO go swarmhosts, but he goes super super swarmhosts no corruptors and he's the only other zerg other then me who utilizes swarmhosts that I have seen anyway.
Widow mine buff is cool but i think they need to tone down the hellbats insane dps right now. Also skytoss appears to still be unbeatable, I wish they'd just remove the tempest from the game entirely but a nerf would have to do i guess... damage is as good a place to start as any <3
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
I disagree. I honestly don't see how they could fix it if it does end up being a problem. The thing is not many zergs do this (on streams I see nobody do this). It's strong, but I don't think it'll be necessarily imbalanced. If every zerg was doing this and toss was getting smashed every game I might agree it was to strong, but there's got to be a reason no zergs are doing this at the pro level.
I see TLO go swarmhosts, but he goes super super swarmhosts no corruptors and he's the only other zerg other then me who utilizes swarmhosts that I have seen anyway.
I am not really saying the unit composition is too strong, I just meant it felt too abusive, similar to the blink stalker DT in PvZ, causing a frustrating experience to play against and blizzard will change something about it.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
What? Mass queen is no longer a unilateral defense against all aggression?!
The correct response here is roaches and banelings, believe it or not.
He did have roaches actually, they just didn't help. You can't expect zerg to have banelings, roaches and queens ready just to defend some simple mineral-only unit.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Yes indeed very funny. That zerg did not scout the all in by the terran? Not to include terrible micro by the zerg. As you can see, the attempt to bring overlord speed to tier 1 will help to provide scouting abilities to detect these all in plays.
What he could have done better? I mean 8 healed hellbats are no joke, there is not much you can do tbh.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
That looked completely crazy tbh. He dropped hellbats on top of roaches (which should be hard counter) and killed them all in seconds. Not only hellbats completely nullify zerglings, they even make roaches pretty much useless which are too completely opposite units.
That looked completely crazy tbh. He dropped hellbats on top of roaches (which should be hard counter) and killed them all in seconds. Not only hellbats completely nullify zerglings, they even make roaches pretty much useless which are too completely opposite units.
Have you seen roach drops on stalkers? Welcome to the Aiur side of gameplay
I was just thinking about the Spore buff, instead of in relation to unit strength (as others said enough mutas will be able to snipe the Spores) thinking about how it relates to timings.
Now if you think about it, the Spore buff would mess up the early timings of Mutas, they wouldn't be able to harass easily until they reach more of a critical mass.
Taking that in to consideration, the timings should line up to where you will have more than enough time to transition to Hydras and not only build enough for defense, but get the Hydra Den upgrades done in time to defend the Muta critical mass by the time it gets there. With that, plus being able to be higher in ranged/armor upgrades than the Mutas, and a much higher number of Hydras than Mutas, it may be a viable strategy.
wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
On February 05 2013 03:53 Fuyihken wrote: I'm absolutely shocked that they're not taking the nerf bat to the hellbat (pun most definitely intended.) IMO (and evidenced by the post I made earlier about fast hellbat drops in TvZ) the hellbat seems a little too strong when combined with medivacs right now.
I will say though, I'm absolutely loving the new raven hunter seeker changes. I've started going double tech starport in every matchup because of how good they are now!
Roach/hydra/viper, meet your beeping doom, muahahahah!
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
On February 06 2013 17:24 looken wrote: wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
Even leaving half the Hydras back at base should be able to defend the mutas with help of the spores, considering the range + upgrade advantage.
Plus Nydus works pretty well with Hydras nowdays, especially if you toss a few SH in
On February 05 2013 03:53 Fuyihken wrote: I'm absolutely shocked that they're not taking the nerf bat to the hellbat (pun most definitely intended.) IMO (and evidenced by the post I made earlier about fast hellbat drops in TvZ) the hellbat seems a little too strong when combined with medivacs right now.
I will say though, I'm absolutely loving the new raven hunter seeker changes. I've started going double tech starport in every matchup because of how good they are now!
Roach/hydra/viper, meet your beeping doom, muahahahah!
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
Roach openers are starting to gain in popularity with the safety they provide agaisnt most harassment, and the fact that the counter to Roach openers can be scouted fairly easily.
On February 06 2013 17:24 looken wrote: wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
Even leaving half the Hydras back at base should be able to defend the mutas with help of the spores, considering the range + upgrade advantage.
Plus Nydus works pretty well with Hydras nowdays, especially if you toss a few SH in [...].
and the other half would get picked of in the middle of the map by ling bling muta? nydus might work if you get it up, but splitting your forces sounds bad to me
On February 06 2013 17:24 looken wrote: wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
Even leaving half the Hydras back at base should be able to defend the mutas with help of the spores, considering the range + upgrade advantage.
Plus Nydus works pretty well with Hydras nowdays, especially if you toss a few SH in [...].
and the other half would get picked of in the middle of the map by ling bling muta? nydus might work if you get it up, but splitting your forces sounds bad to me
Well, most of the reason Nydus can work a bit better now is you don't need to spawn it directly in their base. You can spawn a little distance away (somewhere htey won't see) and push forward with host/hydra. If I remember correctly CatZ did some similar plays.
10 tempest losing hardcore to corruptors wtf is there "to ´much dmg vs not massive" they shoot to slow to be a danger for a corruptor .. cant agree on this point alot others are true
and its rly true alot of the voidray flame comes from ignorance and not knowing anything on t and z side, saying things like "lol you can charge them and then destroy my marine/hydra/muta etc so easy, not knowing they do NO more dmg charged vs them ...
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
User was temp banned for this post.
I literally am laughing my ass off that your "professional level micro" response, as dropping Hellbats at two places at once and clicking hold position is actually a micro... :D
I love to see these hilarious posts once in a while, problem is I am seeing too many of them every day.
Considering QXC is known for his phenomenal micro, and the fact that controlling two drops simultaneously in real-time while macroing back home at a GM level is reasonably more micro than you've ever done in your life (that goes for almost everyone here) I'd say you're in no position to be condescending toward QXC, nor the poster. Rudely laughing at someone because you can't think of a response to something you don't like while also disrespecting professional players in place of an proper rebuttal doesn't get you very far.
Yes, I am pretty sure that you know what I'm capable off! I am laughing at response from that guy, not the QXC, never even commented on the QXC's skill level. I am pretty sure that QXC is a great player, but what he has done there wasn't skillful, controlling two drops is what platinum players can do, so please, if you are below platinum, I would understand why it was "skillful" for you.
And what do you mean it doesn't get me very far? That guy got banned for how bad his post was, and I am not surprised that you are defending him and agreeing with him, since you are as biased as you can get for Terran race.
You can't come up with normal response. Every your post is full of bias. You are talking about things you know nothing about, while you are trying to hide your bias by saying that you are playing random. lol
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
I disagree. I honestly don't see how they could fix it if it does end up being a problem. The thing is not many zergs do this (on streams I see nobody do this). It's strong, but I don't think it'll be necessarily imbalanced. If every zerg was doing this and toss was getting smashed every game I might agree it was to strong, but there's got to be a reason no zergs are doing this at the pro level.
I see TLO go swarmhosts, but he goes super super swarmhosts no corruptors and he's the only other zerg other then me who utilizes swarmhosts that I have seen anyway.
I am not really saying the unit composition is too strong, I just meant it felt too abusive, similar to the blink stalker DT in PvZ, causing a frustrating experience to play against and blizzard will change something about it.
Its no more abusive than corsair/dt was in PvZ in BW. And that build was not seen in any negative light for using the same tequnique.
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
I think you missed the video where queens + a good amount of roaches get obliterated by a 8hellbat drop
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
When defending against drop you have to move a lot, with medivac speed+auto-clump in the mix, you cant maintain a split everywhere, dont tell me anyone does
Also, even when clumped, that wasnt even close, the terran killed everything and lost nothing, there is nothing the zerg can do to defend that
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune.
tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
@ShamWoW, it does one-shot a Stalker, Widow Mine damage ignores armor since it is ability damage and not an actual attack. That is why it ignores Blinding Cloud as well. And that is why Mine damage isn't increased by the upgrades, it isn't decreased by the armor in the first place.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Widow Mine attack is a spell attack. It ignores armor
The widow mine patch is finally here. Good. The amount of butt hurt over the widow mine is understandable but futile, Terran was THE de facto burst damage race. Three of the big burst damage units: Thor/siege tank/Widow mine (spider mine)
On February 06 2013 22:01 Ramiz1989 wrote: @ShamWoW, it does one-shot a Stalker, Widow Mine damage ignores armor since it is ability damage and not an actual attack. That is why it ignores Blinding Cloud as well. And that is why Mine damage isn't increased by the upgrades, it isn't decreased by the armor in the first place.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune.
tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 3) Profit!
Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number,
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune.
tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 2.1) Since you spent money on gas, and gas on burrow, you have fewer everything 2.2) Terran owns you harder if you fail burrow micro, or Terran spends a scan and owns you hard either way 3) Terran Profit!
Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number,
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune.
tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 3) Profit!
Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number,
I've tried to research early burrow for defending this and, at least so far, it's not too effective. Mind you I tried it with Queens AND Roaches so maybe just Queens with burrow would be more effective. It's moments like this that I wish the unranked ladder would let me specifically choose to play against Terran opponents.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. This next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that we ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
/tread.
We are in a world of loud cry-babies-overreactors.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune.
tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 3) Profit!
Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number,
I've tried to research early burrow for defending this and, at least so far, it's not too effective. Mind you I tried it with Queens AND Roaches so maybe just Queens with burrow would be more effective. It's moments like this that I wish the unranked ladder would let me specifically choose to play against Terran opponents.
There's no reason to produce roaches, since Queens have 15% more HP AND can attack air. In fact, get a good concave and expand behind the drop, and you pretty much would end up ahead, as he'd have to burn scans to detect the burrowed queens.
Six queens with 100mp each will more than be able to deal with the drop.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're incorrect on the roach range. It has a range of 4, 2 greater than the helbat. Moreover, roaches are nearly 3.0 speed on creep, which is .75 faster. With a 2 range and speed advantage on creep, helbats are EASILY kited. All players really need to defend vs drop is to a) Queen focus on Medivac b) build more than 8 roaches and focus fire each hellbat, killing 1 hellbat per volley. Having 1-2 spines per base also makes defense alot easier and avoid clumping to minimise damage.
In addition, if T goes for such an opening, you can transition easily to nydus which should kill the Terran off since they've already committed a significant amount of resources for that particular opening and would have a piss weak army if they follow it up with expo. Frankly, widow mine openings are a lot scarier in the hands of better players.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.
'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to effectively shut it down. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from.
On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote: So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top.
Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads.
You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?
Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. This next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that we ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins. Disgusted and disappointed.
P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
/tread.
We are in a world of loud cry-babies-overreactors.
It seems that is what the some parts fo TL have become. I had some kid curse me out because he couldn't 1 rax FE any more against early stargate builds, because for some reason he should be able to do a super econ build with all the new units and timings.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Right now everyone from every race is crying wolf way too much and claiming the game is broken. Give it time people. We have to allow time to figure things out or we will end up with a game just as busted as WoL is, with everyone doing the same builds over and over because everything else has been nerfed out of relevance.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.
'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to deal with. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from.
Hellbat is a mineral only unit, there is nothing gas heavy in all of that. You could argue that there is an initial cost of 300gas for factory/starport/medivac but since Zerg need to expand eary they cannot be expected to throw 300 gas worth of unit at that stage of the game There were several example of a Zerg being prepared against that kind of attack, with queens and roaches, and still getting obliterated
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
Hey just noticed something... did he say it takes 100 seconds to get OV speed? It's actually 60 seconds currently.
Looking at this whole paragraph:
HotS has given a lot more tech options to all three races, and we feel scouting is more important than ever. Terran/Protoss already got their scouting buffs, and we felt Zerg could use one too. Keep in mind this isn't as crazy as it sounds because you still need to spend the extra 100/100 resources as well as 100 seconds to get this upgrade in tier 1.
This sounds very strange. If we were closer to April 1st I'd say this is a joke.
"Not as crazy as it sounds" means that not only he thinks this will be useful, he thinks this is borderline overpowered.
My point is, does anyone else wonder how much actual thought is given to this? This post is factually wrong, and the reasoning fails on the most basic level.
If you're a guy in charge of designing the game, and you're patching the burrow upgrade, how can you get the research time wrong? How can you not understand that this is useless? How much time do they really spend coming up with stuff like that?
This is what worries me. In itself, I see nothing wrong in removing the Lair requirement. But good communication is what matters the most at this point. You want players to trust Blizzard, or they will not get into HotS. How can we ask people to trust them when the lead designer writes stuff like that?
I don't get why the balance team doesn't want ZvZ to be muta dominated. It's way more dynamic like that and, like TLO is showing in his stream, you can micro mutas like a boss in sc2 too ~
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well
I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.
'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to deal with. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from.
Hellbat is a mineral only unit, there is nothing gas heavy in all of that. You could argue that there is an initial cost of 300gas for factory/starport/medivac but since Zerg need to expand eary they cannot be expected to throw 300 gas worth of unit at that stage of the game There were several example of a Zerg being prepared against that kind of attack, with queens and roaches, and still getting obliterated
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
How about we give the strategy more than a week or two? I personally think it's too strong but definitely not for the same reasons.
If you want to play aggressive with hellbats, you sink a ton of gas: 200 for factories, 100 for starport, 100 for armory, 100 or 150 for reactors, and 100 or 200 on medivacs, which delays your eco considerably. The benefit for the terran isn't spending minerals for damage but rather that they spend a lot of gas on nearly all the tech they'll ever need. But they must do massive damage to not be behind.
The reason why this sounds viable is that the terran can tech to mech while forcing the zerg to slow down eco and to stay at home. So, it reduces how vulnerable the terran is before mech is up and it doesn't allow the Z to take 5 bases with BLs out before the terran is able to move out (Hack v Stephano, Mvp v Soo).
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well
I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
Honestly, the Swarm Host is already showing a ton of potential for skilled use. There are a few pros who're already figuring them out--they keep them moving nearly all the time, only burrowing periodically to release locusts. By spreading out and kiting, it becomes incredibly difficult and frustrating for a lot of enemy compositions to catch them, and their cost efficiency becomes very high.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well
I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
People should watch the more creative players like TLO and Grubby so see what can be done with the game. I saw Grubby destroy a blob of 14 infestors with a flock of Phoinex, which I didn't think was possible. It was also totally awesome to watch them come in from two angles. A lot of the pros don't go through the work of experimenting with the new units, which is hard and causes you to lose a lot. Players like Grubby and TLO do and its totally awesome to see the crazy stuff they do.
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Hellbat drops do concern me in the fact that they may be really difficult to “dislodge” in a reasonable manner. Stalkers is not great to fight for a straight up fight against a non-armored unit and zealots are a bad solution. That said, hellbats are slow as shit and avoiding them is easy enough. Also, dealing with early drops as protoss in WoL is mostly about making sure they cannot land.
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.
The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.
TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
Just gotta say... if I'm a new player coming to Starcraft, and I see in the description of spore crawlers that they have bonus vs bio (air), it would seem kinda weird to me, because it would never occur to me this whole thing is only added because of ZvZ and I'd search everywhere for those bio air units of terran and protoss. xD
They might as well make the description say: "bonus vs Zerg", lol.
Also, I was kinda excited to see HotS ZvZ resemble BW ZvZ, but oh well, I guess one gets tired of mutas and lings all day.
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.
TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
The biggest problem is that normally you want zealots to deal with drops since you are using gas on upgrades and AoE.
With needing to make stalkers early you cut into this really hard. In addition, there is the problem that speed medivacs just fly past everything. Even if you have prepositioned units, with the longer blink research time you wont have it in time to really respond to drops well enough. And speed medivacs can drop all the hellbats spaced very well to kill lots of probes.
So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.
In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.
Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!
On February 07 2013 01:02 Necro)Phagist( wrote: The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.
TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
Hellbats in the early game can be beaten with Oracle openings, they're light so Oracles slaughter them. 1 gate expo stargate Oracle openings are also very safe right now due to pulsar beam two-shotting Marines without combat shields, meaning you can defend stuff like 2 rax extremely easily. They cost a lot of gas, but if you open on Oracles you don't need to make a bunch of Sentries, so you have the gas.
The problem is when Terran gets combat shields the Oracles become useless, while the Hellbats don't. Midgame Hellbat drops are far more problematic, you can't really do anything about them. Even if you have cannons down or Stalkers in place, they can just ignore them and drop on your probes.
On February 07 2013 01:17 Psychlone wrote: Spore + damage vs Bio???
Mine + damage vs Shields????????
So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.
In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.
Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!
This is totally incorrect and yet another one of the insane myths of BW. BW had tons of weird damage amounts and values that took place under the hood. Concussive damage, explosive damage and all other damage types that did weird things to specific units. If anything, BWs damage system was less upfront with what it was doing and harder to follow.
i wish that people could be unbiased, or at least less
i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit or make the minimap bigger for you. same thing for the protoss air units as well, i have been able to crush protoss wihtout even making anti air units. people have this retarded one-dimensional view of this game where 'my army beats his, then i win GG wheee'
no sorry, you have to kill his buildings, that's it
you do not have to kill the protoss air army, recall does not make u invulnerable to base trades, fungals and spores can win you a base trade in many situations. if you are so retarded that you do not notice protoss massing air units, you are so bad he didn't have to use them to defend your pressure and you shouldn't be expecting to win this game anyways. i'm serious, it makes no sense to complain of extremely expensive air units when you can just stack larvae/infestors and base trade with tons of lings/ultras/etc that just never die. why even build anti air? its pointless, protoss cannont win in the base trade if zerg plays correctly..
edit: also, there is no problem with widow mines as people claim, they do not need bonus dmg to shields. right now the unit that most needs this is the siege tank. oracles are slightly too strong early game (sorry, its true, esp when al i can have at the timing of oracle 1 (proxied) is 5 marines) when i can literally not make enough units to stop your first oracle, there is a problem with how quickly chrono can produce these units and how much dmg they do to light. i would like to see their damage decerased drastically, but returned with time warp. lets reward people for timewarping + storming. that shit is hard to manage. instead, its' now on the MSC and has limited utility, and weirdly detection is back for the stargates. i feel that zerg is in a great place, players are simply not using their new units. swarm hosts are extremely good, but of course no one will admit
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.
The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...
Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.
i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit
Hellions have 30 initial damage in a wide AOE cone and medivac speed boost prevents you from being able to pull workers away. If you split them, you will most likely lose 2-5x as many as you would compared to getting dropped by marines of equal value.
In terms of workers lost from protoss perspective, a medivac with a bunch of stimless marines early game is not scary at all. He cant even catch the probes to kill any of them because he will only scratch a few when he is dropping the marines. Stim + medivacs, terran is either super all in (1 base) or we are talking 10 minute mark or so, there are much better tools to deal with it. Later in the game you can just have 10+ warpgates and half a dozen cannons/templar if there is a lot of drop threat, its a non issue.
Its incredibly easy to lose 15 workers to medivac+battlehellion drop when terran loses nothing, though, in comparison.
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.
The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...
Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.
So I don't know what you're talking about.
I don't know where did you get that from, Roach attack speed is 2, and damage is 16, Hellbats attack speed is 2, and damage is 18, I can't see how 16>18.
I'm I alone with this opinion or does anybody else think that widow mines are too powerful. I mean I haven't played tonnes, but once they manage to get mines into your mineral line you're fucked and can gg straight away. I find it pretty hard to scout for it as well. I feel like you're forced in TvT to go reaper and widow mines in the early game to do damage, The bionic mix is not really able to defend all angles on the new maps. Too many open spaces and drop positions.
Maybe I need to play more and find a way around it, but so far I think the widow mine is way too strong.
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote: Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.
The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...
Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.
So I don't know what you're talking about.
I don't know where did you get that from, Roach attack speed is 2, and damage is 16, Hellbats attack speed is 2, and damage is 18, I can't see how 16>18.
My bad. I thought Roach had 1.5 attack speed (that's marauders)
9dps (range of 2) vs 8dps (range of 4 or 5) is very lopsided indeed. Sorry.
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
I think you missed the video where queens + a good amount of roaches get obliterated by a 8hellbat drop
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
When defending against drop you have to move a lot, with medivac speed+auto-clump in the mix, you cant maintain a split everywhere, dont tell me anyone does
Also, even when clumped, that wasnt even close, the terran killed everything and lost nothing, there is nothing the zerg can do to defend that
So you've seen Life, Leenock, DRG, Hyun, Stephano, etc. try to deal with it and they've all failed? Perhaps it is problematic but I would hope that Blizzard wouldn't nerf a unit because random GM and masters level players have trouble dealing with it.
On February 07 2013 01:17 Psychlone wrote: Spore + damage vs Bio???
Mine + damage vs Shields????????
So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.
In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.
Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!
This is totally incorrect and yet another one of the insane myths of BW. BW had tons of weird damage amounts and values that took place under the hood. Concussive damage, explosive damage and all other damage types that did weird things to specific units. If anything, BWs damage system was less upfront with what it was doing and harder to follow.
That doesn't mean it's a good developement, does it? I don't believe that this is supergimmicky or something, but from the perspective of a new player, it might go like this: "Spore does 15+15 vs bio, so spores are meant to be used vs bio. My opponent has built void rays. Conclusion: Spores are bad in this situation." Or "widow mines do extra vs shields. So they must be bad vs zerg!"
At least I think the tags are very unintuitive as they are now. Especially if the shield thing goes through, because there is actually no tag at all for "shielded" or something like that.
i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit
Hellions have 30 initial damage in a wide AOE cone and medivac speed boost prevents you from being able to pull workers away. If you split them, you will most likely lose 2-5x as many as you would compared to getting dropped by marines of equal value.
In terms of workers lost from protoss perspective, a medivac with a bunch of stimless marines early game is not scary at all. He cant even catch the probes to kill any of them because he will only scratch a few when he is dropping the marines. Stim + medivacs, terran is either super all in (1 base) or we are talking 10 minute mark or so, there are much better tools to deal with it. Later in the game you can just have 10+ warpgates and half a dozen cannons/templar if there is a lot of drop threat, its a non issue.
Its incredibly easy to lose 15 workers to medivac+battlehellion drop when terran loses nothing, though, in comparison.
read my quote if you are too retarded to pull workers on time, we shouldn't nerf the unit for you. what does this unit accomplish that normal hellion drops cant? besides not being able to chase fleeing worker lines? seriously man this game will play itself if we keep patching based on emotions/mental deficiency
Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
Battle hellion transform upgrade = backflip when transforming. Then I switch to Terran.
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
Technically--they're trying to make Terran the "adaptable" race through unit transformations and unit fusions.
What about the part where he stim the medivac, drop the hellbat at super speed in the mineral line then pick them up when he lose the fight Then he do it again And again.
So no matter what you do or have, terran doesnt care, he will kill your drones
It will be interesting to see whether the buffed Mines make a big impact in TvP. They now oneshot any gateway unit except archons, and if you target an Immortal it will be left with 140 health and no hardened shields, which means it will go down very quickly to tank fire. But the other interesting thing about them is that because they can hit air and don't rely on attack upgrades, they're just as good vs. air as they are vs. ground--in theory, they can help a meching Terran survive a bit better when Toss techswitches to air. I wonder if that's part of why Blizzard chose mines to buff, because one of the weaknesses of mech currently is how badly you can punished by an air switch, so a T1 factory unit that deals heavy damage to Toss air might help a bit.
What about the part where he stim the medivac, drop the hellbat at super speed in the mineral line then pick them up when he lose the fight Then he do it again And again.
So no matter what you do or have, terran doesnt care, he will kill your drones
Yes.... medivacs can drop units, then retreat with them when things are going bad...
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
I threw race design out the window a long time ago, Blizzard doesn't seem to care to a certain degree so I'm just looking for units that offer something new and interesting and the idea of a unit that is mechanical at one time, repaired by SCV's and bio at another time healed by medivacs seems to offer a unique direction and a way to allow a unit to be more functional more often.
I just feel when playing the game is to much about having the exact right unit at the exact right time, and if you don't no amount of micro or skill will save you, you simply lose. Finding ways to keep units relevant more often is a good thing to me. It makes it more about having good engagements, and less about "he built X so I built Y and I win."
The option for terran to go hellions early to open the game, and then flow that into hellbat drops/hellbat play later in the game seems to flow well. As it is now if you open hellions and don't do some damage they tend to serve less purpose as the game goes on and then just end up being wasted supply you just throw away.
I agree I'd rather have my interesting and dynamic races and units, but apparently we aren't getting that so at least this is better than a small fast moving air circle with a laser or a giant ship that hits things from really far away.
What about the part where he stim the medivac, drop the hellbat at super speed in the mineral line then pick them up when he lose the fight Then he do it again And again.
So no matter what you do or have, terran doesnt care, he will kill your drones
Yes.... medivacs can drop units, then retreat with them when things are going bad...
This does not sound like a hellbat problem...
You missed the part where the medivac go faster than the drone Also I never said it was pure hellbat problem
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
I threw race design out the window a long time ago, Blizzard doesn't seem to care to a certain degree so I'm just looking for units that offer something new and interesting and the idea of a unit that is mechanical at one time, repaired by SCV's and bio at another time healed by medivacs seems to offer a unique direction and a way to allow a unit to be more functional more often.
I just feel when playing the game is to much about having the exact right unit at the exact right time, and if you don't no amount of micro or skill will save you, you simply lose. Finding ways to keep units relevant more often is a good thing to me. It makes it more about having good engagements, and less about "he built X so I built Y and I win."
The option for terran to go hellions early to open the game, and then flow that into hellbat drops/hellbat play later in the game seems to flow well. As it is now if you open hellions and don't do some damage they tend to serve less purpose as the game goes on and then just end up being wasted supply you just throw away.
I agree I'd rather have my interesting and dynamic races and units, but apparently we aren't getting that so at least this is better than a small fast moving air circle with a laser or a giant ship that hits things from really far away.
In fairness to SC2--BW's "dynamic races and units" were not actually that Dynamic.
For example, SC2 whines that Mech is not viable in TvP outside of timing attacks. But that was the exact same problem with bio play in TvP in BW. Firebats were, for the most part, useless. There was no firebat heavy unit composition that walked around taking map control and threatening expansions with its fire damage. Scouts? Queens?
There was a lot of strategies and units that were not up to par--very similarly to SC2.
The actual problem comes from entertainment output. Sure, scouts were not as powerful as Voidrays meaning toss airplay was either overlord harass or turtle to carriers. But are voidray timings really that interesting? Not having the option to play a macro bio game in TvP during BW was a great hindrance--but did SC2's bio centric play have to come at the cost of Mech play?
Too often things in SC2 are different at the cost of something from BW when what people want is the good stuff in SC2 being added with the good stuff in BW.
^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
I threw race design out the window a long time ago, Blizzard doesn't seem to care to a certain degree so I'm just looking for units that offer something new and interesting and the idea of a unit that is mechanical at one time, repaired by SCV's and bio at another time healed by medivacs seems to offer a unique direction and a way to allow a unit to be more functional more often.
I just feel when playing the game is to much about having the exact right unit at the exact right time, and if you don't no amount of micro or skill will save you, you simply lose. Finding ways to keep units relevant more often is a good thing to me. It makes it more about having good engagements, and less about "he built X so I built Y and I win."
The option for terran to go hellions early to open the game, and then flow that into hellbat drops/hellbat play later in the game seems to flow well. As it is now if you open hellions and don't do some damage they tend to serve less purpose as the game goes on and then just end up being wasted supply you just throw away.
I agree I'd rather have my interesting and dynamic races and units, but apparently we aren't getting that so at least this is better than a small fast moving air circle with a laser or a giant ship that hits things from really far away.
In fairness to SC2--BW's "dynamic races and units" were not actually that Dynamic.
For example, SC2 whines that Mech is not viable in TvP outside of timing attacks. But that was the exact same problem with bio play in TvP in BW. Firebats were, for the most part, useless. There was no firebat heavy unit composition that walked around taking map control and threatening expansions with its fire damage. Scouts? Queens?
There was a lot of strategies and units that were not up to par--very similarly to SC2.
The actual problem comes from entertainment output. Sure, scouts were not as powerful as Voidrays meaning toss airplay was either overlord harass or turtle to carriers. But are voidray timings really that interesting? Not having the option to play a macro bio game in TvP during BW was a great hindrance--but did SC2's bio centric play have to come at the cost of Mech play?
Too often things in SC2 are different at the cost of something from BW when what people want is the good stuff in SC2 being added with the good stuff in BW.
Maybe, but Blizzard can't bake in the complexity of BW. It needs to develop over time, just like BW. Even if the new styles are not exactly what we saw in BW, the complexity will build with HotS and we will see new things. Chess and poker are not "complex" games, but the depth to the strategy is vast due to how much people have played it. But they did not start that way.
Development takes time, which most people forget. Even a direct port of BW into the SC 2 engine would take years to reach the same level the BW prime was. Creating complexity through conflict is nothing more than trial and error, over and over.
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
Yeah, bio play in BW was shit. I don't get why you want to have that back... Edit: minus TvZ ofc
Not to mention that there are already so many exceptions to your "design rule" in BW (from the mentioned Ultralisks to BCs, Siege Tanks, Devourer, Vulture - stuff that is all quite superior to certain similar tech/role/cost Protoss units). Not to mention, that in SC2 Stalkers still beat any other same tier unit minus the marauder in a 1v1 situation...
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
Yeah, bio play in BW was shit. I don't get why you want to have that back...
Not to mention that there are already so many exceptions to your "design rule" in BW (from the mentioned Ultralisks to BCs, Siege Tanks, Devourer, Vulture - stuff that is all quite superior to certain similar tech/role/cost Protoss units). Not to mention, that in SC2 Stalkers still beat any other same tier unit minus the marauder in a 1v1 situation...
bio play in TvZ was really fun in broodwar, insane apm requirments on both sides at the higher levels
On February 07 2013 03:29 FLuE wrote: Hellbats are one of the unit introductions that at this point I find to be a great addition and needed for Terran. If some damage needs tweaking fine, but I like the idea of the bio/mech combo. Plus I think it helps make helions more viable late game by allowing that transformation, and can create some cool micro situations switching between the two.
I'd love to see a Terran late game upgrade that speeds up all mech transformation. Have it be an upgrade on the armory perhaps, basically cut transformation time by 25-50%(whatever number isn't OP). Siege/unsiege faster. Hellbats to helions faster. Viking land to air faster, etc. I think this would help make Mech better late game so that you could do things like transform your hellbats and retreat, and reduce the amount of times Terran get caught unsieged and just lose. Not sure if this breaks TvT, but just a thought.
WHAT? seriously?
How about race design? I don't see that many differences between the roach, the zealot, and the hellbat from a unit design. Going back to Brood War, the unit the closest to the hellbat was the Firebat.. and it had what? 50 hp? It wasn't meant to be a terran zealot, it was meant to be able to land hits on zerglings (was pretty much shit against anything else). As for zergs, their 75 mins-25 gas unit was the hydralisk, which in no way was a buffed tanky unit. Only Toss had the zealot, which respected the race design that a protoss in a one vs one should pretty much always win (except ultralisk which is at the high end of the tech tree)
Yeah, bio play in BW was shit. I don't get why you want to have that back...
Not to mention that there are already so many exceptions to your "design rule" in BW (from the mentioned Ultralisks to BCs, Siege Tanks, Devourer, Vulture - stuff that is all quite superior to certain similar tech/role/cost Protoss units). Not to mention, that in SC2 Stalkers still beat any other same tier unit minus the marauder in a 1v1 situation...
bio play in TvZ was really fun in broodwar, insane apm requirments on both sides at the higher levels
deep 6 was still the most fun bo to do on iccup vs p xd
On February 07 2013 05:15 baba1 wrote: ^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
No. SC2 is a total of 3 games. There's no reason Terrans should be pigeonholed into a bio that gets stomped late-game for the entire 5 year duration of WoL + HotS.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
Edit: Probably with a pretty significant bonus to it's affect though.
Anyway, I think Hellbats are pretty boring units overall, basically a move versions of hellions. I'd love to have a different new unit or a buff to siege tanks rather than the hellbat.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
On February 07 2013 05:15 baba1 wrote: ^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
No. SC2 is a total of 3 games. There's no reason Terrans should be pigeonholed into a bio that gets stomped late-game for the entire 5 year duration of WoL + HotS.
The point that he is making that players should not feel that they should be able to play the exact style they want to play, all the time. A lot of players want “mech” play, but they keep complaining that it does not conform to their concept of how mech should be played. This is not everyone, but some of the complainers(who I am convinced want the game to be like tower defense, but with siege tanks) just will never be happy until they can build the exact number of units they want to build.
This is not to say I don’t think the factory units need work. I like the change to the widow mine and it should be awesome to watch it blast stalkers off the map. The tempest needs work too, as it is slightly to awesome. The Medivac speed might have to short of a cool down(and looks so dumb). All that can be worked through over time. But some of the complaining boils down to “Why haven’t they “fixed” the game so I can play the exact way I want to.” At some point that becomes a little silly.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
Are you saying you actually like Hellbat design? I honestly think it's probably the single most boring unit that's come out of HotS so far.
I always thought the Hellbat was bad ass. A giant, flame shooting robot with huge shields on its fists that also transforms into a highspeed, flame shooting car. There are whole movie scripts based around such a concept(Fast and Furious 13 – Future wars). The only thing that could make that unit better is if the robots punched with giant flame shooting shield fists.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
Are you saying you actually like Hellbat design? I honestly think it's probably the single most boring unit that's come out of HotS so far.
I like the design of a Hellion having the ability to lose speed in favor of strength. I like the idea of a strong unit losing power for more mobility. I like it on the Siege tank, I like it on the Viking, and I like it on the Hellion. Saying you don't like the design of Hellions transforming into Hellbats is the same as you saying you don't like the design of Siege Tanks into Siege Mode Siege Tanks.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro.
Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro.
Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable.
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote: At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
Not only low league, even at pro level this is the case. But fear not, David Kim is NOT SURE that this is actually the problem because he thinks Zerg didn´t yet try to RUN AWAY from Voidrays when they use the charge ....
On February 07 2013 07:24 Zombo Joe wrote: Hellbats are like Terran roaches.
which cost no gas, have splash and are (possibly) way way faster. Yep just like Roaches, just. like. roaches...
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote: At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
Why would you ever stop baneling busting greedy protoss players? We deserve it. Zergs need to bring the fear if they see a protoss for pure stargate to force them to invest in ground units.
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote: At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
Why would you ever stop baneling busting greedy protoss players? We deserve it. Zergs need to bring the fear if they see a protoss for pure stargate to force them to invest in ground units.
Because players are stupid and would much rather whine than do the things that they already know that they need to do.
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote: At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
Why would you ever stop baneling busting greedy protoss players? We deserve it. Zergs need to bring the fear if they see a protoss for pure stargate to force them to invest in ground units.
Because players are stupid and would much rather whine than do the things that they already know that they need to do.
I hate attacking protoss because of force fields. It's like.. I've put all this money into these units, and they're never going to do anything because that ramp just disappeared.
hmm that mine change is rather interesting....I still dont think it enough to ever make the mine ever viable in Tvp becvause this just the nature that the mine cost 2 supply but who knows I could be wrong. Either way, it does encourage more usage of mine in TvP.
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro.
Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable.
You only bring 1 Reaver.
This is how much it costs
Tech needed
Robo Bay => Robo facility (350min 300gas) vs Factory => Armory + Starport (450min 300gas)
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro.
Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable.
You only bring 1 Reaver.
This is how much it costs
Tech needed
Robo Bay => Robo facility (350min 300gas) vs Factory => Armory + Starport (450min 300gas)
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two.
The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds.
Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again.
I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play.
edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro.
Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable.
You only bring 1 Reaver.
This is how much it costs
Tech needed
Robo Bay => Robo facility (350min 300gas) vs Factory => Armory + Starport (450min 300gas)
On February 07 2013 07:17 ElMeanYo wrote: Want to counter hellbat drops as Terran? Planetary Fortress first!!! Then do your own hellbat drops and profit.
that would actually be a kind of hilarious metagame
also i gotta say i enjoy watching high-level pvp in hots, seems pretty instense with all the msc micro
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote: At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
that last suggestion got to be the worst one in the whole thread...
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote: At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
This is the exact problem with PvZ in WoL, but now the shoes on the other foot. Since I'm not very good, my biggest problems come with actually getting up to the ultimate army comp. I always get stomped by roach/hydra or whatnot before I have enough of an air force to matter (which was the protoss burden in WoL). Hopefully zerg gets a better solution than a gimicky hero unit. I like that all the races have gotten more flexible with HotS and I don't want to see it trimmed up.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
You have clearly never tried it. When a void rays beam hits an enemy it locks on. The max range of the beam then increases by 2 AND the voidray chases you while attacking (which given the speed of a void ray adds about an extra 1/2 to 1 range worth of damage). Once that beam touches an armored unit you may aswell consider it dead if it retreats regardless of its speed. The issue is not movement speed its the leash range mechanic.
Do what he said an go experienent with it a little before trying to continue your argument.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
Well, I believe that one of the issues with the "runaway" is that Tempests (and Colossi/Carriers) can do a lot of damage from up to 15range. At that time, you want to overrun those units. You run in, the void rays charge and what now? You back out and take more damage from the carriers and the Tempests? This is especially a problem in defensive situations, where backing out means losing bases/production/economy/tech.
In theory, it is an interesting dynamic that gets introduced by the new charge. Practically speaking, it might need a lot of figuering in which situation it is actually worthwhile to micro against them, or whether you just try to rip of as much of their army for as long as you stil have one.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
Well, I believe that one of the issues with the "runaway" is that Tempests (and Colossi/Carriers) can do a lot of damage from up to 15range. At that time, you want to overrun those units. You run in, the void rays charge and what now? You back out and take more damage from the carriers and the Tempests? This is especially a problem in defensive situations, where backing out means losing bases/production/economy/tech.
In theory, it is an interesting dynamic that gets introduced by the new charge. Practically speaking, it might need a lot of figuering in which situation it is actually worthwhile to micro against them, or whether you just try to rip of as much of their army for as long as you stil have one.
At that point the problem stops being ______ unit does X and starts becoming about how to properly deal with highly synergistic units. Kind of like what Protoss and Terran have had to do against Broodfestor compositions.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
You do know that void ray's charge ability doesn't do anything vs non-armored units, right? The point is to run away armored units while its charged. Also, move speeds aren't as important in this scenario as is the fact that void rays not only can attack while moving but also have a long 'leash' range when they've already acquired a target.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
Well, I believe that one of the issues with the "runaway" is that Tempests (and Colossi/Carriers) can do a lot of damage from up to 15range. At that time, you want to overrun those units. You run in, the void rays charge and what now? You back out and take more damage from the carriers and the Tempests? This is especially a problem in defensive situations, where backing out means losing bases/production/economy/tech.
In theory, it is an interesting dynamic that gets introduced by the new charge. Practically speaking, it might need a lot of figuering in which situation it is actually worthwhile to micro against them, or whether you just try to rip of as much of their army for as long as you stil have one.
At that point the problem stops being ______ unit does X and starts becoming about how to properly deal with highly synergistic units. Kind of like what Protoss and Terran have had to do against Broodfestor compositions.
Well, yeah. But I don't believe the people who have trouble with void rays (the ones that David Kim is referring to) have them in a vanilia void ray early/midgame scenario.
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray.
I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all.
Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc...
You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass.
Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed)
Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking.
You do know that void ray's charge ability doesn't do anything vs non-armored units, right? The point is to run away armored units while its charged. Also, move speeds aren't as important in this scenario as is the fact that void rays not only can attack while moving but also have a long 'leash' range when they've already acquired a target.
See, as a meching terran I kind of understand what they want me to do, but considering both my viable forms of anti air are armored, I'm not entirely sure what to do against lots of voids :p
I just watched game 1 of Innovation vs. TY in the MLG HoTS showmatches.
Why are they concerned about muta vs. muta in ZvZ and having weird fixes for it when hellbat drops present the same problem they had in WoL when blue flame hellions decided every single TvT?
It's like instead of coming up with cool and creative new units and upgrades they just rebuffed everything they nerfed in WoL, and now they're coming up with the least creative solutions possible for stuff (extra damage vs. shields, spores do more against bio, etc.)
EDIT: I think with some tweaking the game could be really cool, I'm just disappointed in how they're patching the game, and I was pretty excited to watch TvT with lots of tank positioning and cool stuff like that.
Changing overlord speed to tier 1 sounds kind of ridiculously weird...and why would they slow the fungal speed to nerf or help the infestor? Now it will be even harder for mutas to be hit by fungal lol, and it is really not going to stop the Zerg from going mutalisks because of the spore change.... Barely but not as much at all.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
No he is right. It's not that Zerg HAS TO build a hatchery very fast. It simply turned out that in the WoL metagame you couldn't do anything else that was kind of stable. With new possibilities (burrow on hatchtech, early siege weapons), there could very well be some 1base stuff around - not that I believe it, but it could be and has to be figuered.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
That produces Zerglings and Queens only. By the same logic, 2 Nexus + Cyber Core + 4 Gates = 600 minerals, and you can produce Zealots, Stalkers and Sentries.
Again, larvae is shared between workers and units. In a typical ZvP in WoL, a Zerg only overtakes Protoss around 38 workers. The Protoss also has some semblance of an army whereas the Zerg has to be as greedy as possible to overtake on workers at that point.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
You guys are putting the cart before the horse.
Zerg does not technically have to expand early--however, the units given to zerg are designed to be produce in large number at low cost to trade inefficiently with enemy troops. They are also given great mobility and speed as well as a certain level of specificity as to their roles. This is because Zerg production is larva based which levels out the production rate of all units since multiple units can be produced at once.
This creates the zerg advantage of map control as well as the threat of a troop surge that T/P have to always be aware of. When T/P move out they want to make sure that Zerg does not suddenly pop out 100 lings to surround the army.
Because of this, Zerg the zerg is able to expand both early and often. Because of this, zerg play leans heavily on fast expand builds. However, this "fast expand" is not actually as greedy as it looks.
15 Hatch then pool, 14 pool then Hatch
vs
14 cc, 12rax then CC
vs
15 nex, 13forge then nex, 13 gate then nex, etc....
How quickly the expansion is taken is not *that* much faster than Terran/Toss. Zerg's "expansion greedy" focus does not come into play really until he grabs his 4rth/5th base.
So no, Zerg doesn't "need" to grab a 15 hatch. He can easily grab a 14 pool, then hatch. He can grab a 14 gas, 14 pool, early speed and then 18/22 hatch. But the same could be said about Terran's 1raxFE, Toss's ForgeFE, 1Gate FE, etc...
Heck, Nexus first produces more workers than a 15 hatch during the early part of the game and it isn't until zerg starts to saturate the 3rd that they begin to get ahead. Trying to yell at Zerg for expanding at 15 supply is silly--Protoss and Terran can expand as quickly and as safely.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss.
Thats not true at all. Zerglings and roaches are quite good. But to get the same army worth, you need more production slots because they are cheaper.
And Im pretty sure that a protoss with 3nexus opening can come very close to max with zealots at 12min. He ia just not going to get there ever, just like roach maxes are not doable that early unless you flip a lot of coins.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss.
Thats not true at all. Zerglings and roaches are quite good. But to get the same army worth, you need more production slots because they are cheaper.
And Im pretty sure that a protoss with 3nexus opening can come very close to max with zealots at 12min. He ia just not going to get there ever, just like roach maxes are not doable that early unless you flip a lot of coins.
Seed used to do a 14min maxed push with only blink stalkers àon entombed valley in PvZ by opening with a very early third nexus
Mass swarm hosts look extremely strong (and boring) against terran. then again i've only seen a few pro games of it, but they seem very hard to deal with. Will have to watch a few more games of the better terran streamers I guess.
Same thing can be said for a Terran's timing push before Zerg has their Lair tech set up. Hellbat drops, hellbat/marine, marine/tanks, mix in with a widow mine etc.
On February 07 2013 12:30 AxionSteel wrote: Mass swarm hosts look extremely strong (and boring) against terran. then again i've only seen a few pro games of it, but they seem very hard to deal with. Will have to watch a few more games of the better terran streamers I guess.
On February 07 2013 12:34 BigRedDog wrote: Same thing can be said for a Terran's timing push before Zerg has their Lair tech set up. Hellbat drops, hellbat/marine, marine/tanks, mix in with a widow mine etc.
On February 07 2013 12:30 AxionSteel wrote: Mass swarm hosts look extremely strong (and boring) against terran. then again i've only seen a few pro games of it, but they seem very hard to deal with. Will have to watch a few more games of the better terran streamers I guess.
?
multi-pronged harass with a frontal push is considered boring to watch (aka multitasking)? what?
On February 07 2013 12:34 BigRedDog wrote: Same thing can be said for a Terran's timing push before Zerg has their Lair tech set up. Hellbat drops, hellbat/marine, marine/tanks, mix in with a widow mine etc.
?
multi-pronged harass with a frontal push is considered boring to watch (aka multitasking)? what?
-Medevac "sprint" cooldown increased by X (at least 5 seconds). Caduceus Reactor reduces the cooldown by X. -Hellbat damage slightly reduced. -Oracle production time increased by 5. -Hydra hit points increased by 10 at least.
Why do they keep whining that players should run away when Void rays are charged? Say 2 armies each does 1000 dps to eachother. If you run away you do 0 dps and the enemy does ~800 dps still...
This is in regards to big battles, not harrassment.
On February 07 2013 10:17 Swords wrote: I just watched game 1 of Innovation vs. TY in the MLG HoTS showmatches.
Why are they concerned about muta vs. muta in ZvZ and having weird fixes for it when hellbat drops present the same problem they had in WoL when blue flame hellions decided every single TvT?
It's like instead of coming up with cool and creative new units and upgrades they just rebuffed everything they nerfed in WoL, and now they're coming up with the least creative solutions possible for stuff (extra damage vs. shields, spores do more against bio, etc.)
EDIT: I think with some tweaking the game could be really cool, I'm just disappointed in how they're patching the game, and I was pretty excited to watch TvT with lots of tank positioning and cool stuff like that.
Actually to give Baby (TY) some credit, he actually mustered a great defense with the clever use of window mine positioning and grounded vikings to stop the harass. He did it so convincingly to the point where he almost won the third game had he not been caught out of position by Bogus's units. Hellbats, unlike hellions have to be in melee range to do damage, so mine positions are highly simplified compared to fighting ranged units. As for my personal opinion, opening 111 with widow mines and viking into reactored vikings solves any future hellbat drops since air control is what you really need to deny any potential drop.
David Kim wrote: We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
is because people WANT to make them work, so they're trying hard at it. :|
Furthermore what else shall Z build? There arent too much possibilities if you wanna go ground with the nerfed infestor, who will get nerfed even more shortly..
I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored (and maybe reduce its build time a bit like 5s).
On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote: I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
Isn't it kind of weird that they are supposed to be one of the core T2 units, but are the only unit Zerg has that requires 2 upgrades to be useful? The other ones with 2 upgrades are a cherry on top, and both upgrades are basically a requirement for Hydras. Microed Hydras can do pretty good vs hellbats with speed + range, but without range they still get caught in Hellbats ranged attacks, without speed they can be cornered off creep. That's silly.
I can't think of any other unit in the game that's reliant on two separate upgrades just for the base functionality - usually 1 upgrade is for functionality, and the other is either a little more stats or a cherry on top. Both speed and range are fundamental for a Hydra. For comparisons Roach Speed is for functionality, burrow move is a cherry on top. Marine stim is functionality, combat shields a cherry on top.
Hydras would be in a pretty good spot if both of those upgrades were combined in to one, don't you think?
On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote: I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
Isn't it kind of weird that they are supposed to be one of the core T2 units, but are the only unit Zerg has that requires 2 upgrades to be useful? The other ones with 2 upgrades are a cherry on top, and both upgrades are basically a requirement for Hydras. Microed Hydras can do pretty good vs hellbats with speed + range, but without range they still get caught in Hellbats ranged attacks, without speed they can be cornered off creep. That's silly.
I can't think of any other unit in the game that's reliant on two separate upgrades just for the base functionality - usually 1 upgrade is for functionality, and the other is either a little more stats or a cherry on top. Both speed and range are fundamental for a Hydra. For comparisons Roach Speed is for functionality, burrow move is a cherry on top. Marine stim is functionality, combat shields a cherry on top.
Hydras would be in a pretty good spot if both of those upgrades were combined in to one, don't you think?
I do partly agree about the upgrades being expensive. Still it wouldnt solve any problems. Its not about midgame, in midgame i can deal with voids very well. Its the endgame, when there is a strong groundarmy with lots of splash AND voidrays. Most times as soon as the protoss reaches 4 bases. Infested terrans wont help when toss goes for armor upgrades, hydras melt to storm and curropter melt to voidrays. Mutas are also good (are they still good?) vs voids, but its the same problem as with hydras. In the endgame there is too much splash envolved to make that work.
A buff about +1 range could maybe do a better job with solving that issue. But hey, blizzard said hydras are very strong, so dont hope for something like that :-P It probably will take a half year of tournaments until blizzard starts to realize what the problems really are
On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote: I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
No they are not, they get killed by both tanks and enough voids supported by anything. They are even not that better against roaches without infestor support.
I think they should remain to be good damage dealers but do it better for their cost and still be vulnerable to AoE.
On February 07 2013 19:34 Miragee wrote: LOL, first when I saw "David Kim on potential bet…" I thought they were thinking about adding a betting system to sc2 (with real money of course). o.O
Same, but then again, it may be not implemented on NA due to America's law against gamble.
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic.
Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs.
It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that?
Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units.
Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch.
It's not a "free hatchery".
Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS.
The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that.
Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss.
Thats not true at all. Zerglings and roaches are quite good. But to get the same army worth, you need more production slots because they are cheaper.
And Im pretty sure that a protoss with 3nexus opening can come very close to max with zealots at 12min. He ia just not going to get there ever, just like roach maxes are not doable that early unless you flip a lot of coins.
You can max out a bit after 11 min on roach/ling with standard opening until min 8 (then producing units). Now, i would not define standard opening as very coin flippy.
When there will be less AOE so every unit could count... Also using AOE units should be troublesome instead we have speed banelings on creep that is on half of the map, ultra mobile colosus, warp templar...
On February 07 2013 22:00 blublub wrote: When there will be less AOE so every unit could count... Also using AOE units should be troublesome instead we have speed banelings on creep that is on half of the map, ultra mobile colosus, warp templar...
I miss something like shuttle/river micro:[
Yeah I agree, there's way too much a-move AoE in the game. Even fungal and storm just involve another button press.
On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote: I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
No they are not, they get killed by both tanks and enough voids supported by anything. They are even not that better against roaches without infestor support.
I think they should remain to be good damage dealers but do it better for their cost and still be vulnerable to AoE.
Yes siege tanks counter them, but voids for equal amounts of investment don't have an advantage (as you say they "need enough" and enough means a lot bigger investment in this case).
But every anti-armor unit has their counters all the same. That doesn't mean Hydras don't work particularly well for taking out armored units. ZvT they are strong vs Mara's, Thors, Viks, BC - basically every heavy unit except Tanks (they share a weakness to all AoE siege units). ZvP they are strong vs basically everything except Colossus and Tempest if they use their range properly. They are strong vs all Zergs armored units except Ultras as well.
In general, for a ground based army below T3 they are Zergs best bet for facing all the armored units. Especially the armored units that need specific counters (such as Immortal/Thor/Etc).
On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote: I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
No they are not, they get killed by both tanks and enough voids supported by anything. They are even not that better against roaches without infestor support.
I think they should remain to be good damage dealers but do it better for their cost and still be vulnerable to AoE.
Yes siege tanks counter them, but voids for equal amounts of investment don't have an advantage (as you say they "need enough" and enough means a lot bigger investment in this case).
But every anti-armor unit has their counters all the same. That doesn't mean Hydras don't work particularly well for taking out armored units. ZvT they are strong vs Mara's, Thors, Viks, BC - basically every heavy unit except Tanks (they share a weakness to all AoE siege units). ZvP they are strong vs basically everything except Colossus and Tempest if they use their range properly. They are strong vs all Zergs armored units except Ultras as well.
In general, for a ground based army below T3 they are Zergs best bet for facing all the armored units. Especially the armored units that need specific counters (such as Immortal/Thor/Etc).
Thors and Marauders beat hydras. Stalkers, Immortals and Zealots aren't too bad vs them either.
The hydralisk has two strengths: -) reasonable dps vs everything, which makes them a good unit against ground if you have a reasonable HP buffer/blocker in front. -) easily massable+universal, which allows you to get an army advantage and makes them reasonable units whenever it comes to fighting cost for cost, as you can just field "more cost" of something that isn't particularily bad vs most things and therefore you can overpower units that actually win vs hydras in equal fights (like immortals, thors, marauders). Even more it makes them a good unit vs airunits before the lategame, as all of them are costinefficient by design in combats.
That being said, Hydras OR Roaches lack a real counterfocus. Both of them are good vs most things when you can produce more (which you can as zerg). Neither of them is actually a real counter to something, apart from very few units. This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote: I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
No they are not, they get killed by both tanks and enough voids supported by anything. They are even not that better against roaches without infestor support.
I think they should remain to be good damage dealers but do it better for their cost and still be vulnerable to AoE.
Yes siege tanks counter them, but voids for equal amounts of investment don't have an advantage (as you say they "need enough" and enough means a lot bigger investment in this case).
But every anti-armor unit has their counters all the same. That doesn't mean Hydras don't work particularly well for taking out armored units. ZvT they are strong vs Mara's, Thors, Viks, BC - basically every heavy unit except Tanks (they share a weakness to all AoE siege units). ZvP they are strong vs basically everything except Colossus and Tempest if they use their range properly. They are strong vs all Zergs armored units except Ultras as well.
In general, for a ground based army below T3 they are Zergs best bet for facing all the armored units. Especially the armored units that need specific counters (such as Immortal/Thor/Etc).
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Viper works really well in mid-to lategame. But in the very lategame they just get feedbacked easily, hydras get stormed easily and voidrays do the rest. In ZvT tho i dont think thats an issue, but no terran is trying so far to use ghosts to counter vipers. So we will see how that developes in future
Widow mines are so dumb with a bio terran army... and hell bats are as broken as void-rays...
imo these need some real changes before the game will be properly balanced.... also don't like how much more dmg muta's can tank... going muta is so powerful vs toss unless you already opened phonex...
I'd like to see default Hydra range increased to 6, and the range upgrade for hydras changed. Move it to Hive and increase the range bonus to +3. I think in the late game range 9 hydras mobs could be useful against big air fleets, if kited properly.
Also possibly remove the Light tag so they don't get owned by things like zerglings, hellbats and phoenix so bad.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
Would be interested to see how the game would play if AoE across the board was reduced while single target dps was increased(would exclude tanks in this). The amount of AoE potential, especially late game for protoss just melts certain unit compositions so fast that you don't even know what just happened.
Always been the issue with Hydras. There is a sweet spot in that mid game before the AoE is out and then after that done. As it stands now the hydra will never be really useful except situationally with that constant risk. I'd love it if they just gave you either the speed or the range or decreased the cost of both so that you could simply mix a few hydras into your army for a dps boost but not have to fully commit to them.
Just how backwards zerg is, you are better off massing infestors and supporting with a few hydras than massing hydras and supporting with a few infestors which would seem to be the more logical composition.
Hopefully we can get another balance patch or two before the game launches. The big question is if blizzard will do any big changes or just number changes
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
This is the way Zerg is supposed to work. Cost inefficient units, but lots of them.
On February 07 2013 05:15 baba1 wrote: ^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
No. SC2 is a total of 3 games. There's no reason Terrans should be pigeonholed into a bio that gets stomped late-game for the entire 5 year duration of WoL + HotS.
Why not? Terrans were pigeonholed into mech for over 10 years and it was still made amazing games. This is exactly what I'm saying, terrans want both mech and bio to be viable in all match ups and I don't think that's how it should work.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
This is the way Zerg is supposed to work. Cost inefficient units, but lots of them.
Also, if you replace even a small number of hydras with a few zerglins, they do much better aganist immortals(who have nightmares about zerglings every night). The same rule applys to pure stalker against roachs, the stalkers do great until a few zerglings show up and then everything goes so wrong.
The game is about using units together. Even the mighty broodlord is nothing without support.
On February 07 2013 05:15 baba1 wrote: ^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
No. SC2 is a total of 3 games. There's no reason Terrans should be pigeonholed into a bio that gets stomped late-game for the entire 5 year duration of WoL + HotS.
Why not? Terrans were pigeonholed into mech for over 10 years and it was still made amazing games. This is exactly what I'm saying, terrans want both mech and bio to be viable in all match ups and I don't think that's how it should work.
And your argument is, "because thats how SC1 was," which is at best a false equivilence logical fallacy.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
This is the way Zerg is supposed to work. Cost inefficient units, but lots of them.
No it's not. Zerg units are mostly low ranged, so they should be incredibly costefficient in the low amounts, which balances out in the mid amounts and favors the opponent in the high amounts. To balance this out, the other races have specific counters to zerg units on mid techlevel, while zerg has specific units that synergize with their low range units on the higher tech levels.
Zerg is and has always been incredibly costefficient when their units get enough surface area or have enough spell support. (speaking for SC2 and BW)
How can people say zerg is supposed to be costinefficient, when 2cracklings roflstomp a marine and 4 of them beat the shit out of zealots? When Ultralisks win any 1v1 comparison? Or units like roaches/BW hydralisks that are quite good vs Stalkers/Dragoons in the even cost.
On February 07 2013 05:15 baba1 wrote: ^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
No. SC2 is a total of 3 games. There's no reason Terrans should be pigeonholed into a bio that gets stomped late-game for the entire 5 year duration of WoL + HotS.
Why not? Terrans were pigeonholed into mech for over 10 years and it was still made amazing games. This is exactly what I'm saying, terrans want both mech and bio to be viable in all match ups and I don't think that's how it should work.
And your argument is, "because thats how SC1 was," which is at best a false equivilence logical fallacy.
You can't just pick out one part of a sentence and then put "false equivalence logical fallacy" at the and to prove him wrong. You need to back that stament up with somthing, rather than just imply he is wrong and wait for him to respond. He said that BW had amazing games, even though terrans were limited on one play style. He is pointing out that even limited the games were amazing, so the demands for all players styles to be viable in all match ups may be reasonable.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Holy shit they are planning on adding +shields dmg to mines! Isn't dmg+shielddmg what everyone wanted to be added to siegetank so it wouldn't be op in other matchups but would make it useful against P?
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
I'm pretty sure if the Terran micros the Thor rather than A-move and let it it stand and shoot, the hydras have a chance. My experience is if I have hydras and they have thors it's a pretty one sided fight. Lots of dead hydras.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
I'm pretty sure if the Terran micros the Thor rather than A-move and let it it stand and shoot, the hydras have a chance. My experience is if I have hydras and they have thors it's a pretty one sided fight. Lots of dead hydras.
Also, I don't know how you micro against a unit that has longer range, two shots hydras and has 400 HP. Seriously, the Thor wins if it fires 8 times against 4 hydras. They can't even kite it because it has longer range. Maybe if they did damage, left before it fired a second time, healed for 3 minutes and then attacked again until the thor was dead. Or they were magic.
On February 07 2013 05:15 baba1 wrote: ^ So true. TvP was all about mech in BW because bio did NOT work. Like at all. You were basicly forced into mech because all bio melted in seconds so it was not even an option. Now terrans want both of the better worlds with viable mech and viable bio..
No. SC2 is a total of 3 games. There's no reason Terrans should be pigeonholed into a bio that gets stomped late-game for the entire 5 year duration of WoL + HotS.
Why not? Terrans were pigeonholed into mech for over 10 years and it was still made amazing games. This is exactly what I'm saying, terrans want both mech and bio to be viable in all match ups and I don't think that's how it should work.
And your argument is, "because thats how SC1 was," which is at best a false equivilence logical fallacy.
Good job quoting something I did not say. You're the one spewing bs..
On February 08 2013 02:46 Jarree wrote: Holy shit they are planning on adding +shields dmg to mines! Isn't dmg+shielddmg what everyone wanted to be added to siegetank so it wouldn't be op in other matchups but would make it useful against P?
It is one of the suggestions.
I think it tends to lead to the larger debate of using these odd damage bonuses on certain units to account for specific matchup problems or even very specific moments of imbalance, so as to solve the problem without breaking things that are balanced.
I am not in favor as it seems to lead to short term solutions but doesn't address greater balance issues. It also continues to create more situations where units are only good in certain situations regardless of the skill of the player using, the micro, the attack position, etc. I'd like to see more instances where more units were productive at all times in the hands of the right player vs. amazing sometimes and worthless others.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
I'm pretty sure if the Terran micros the Thor rather than A-move and let it it stand and shoot, the hydras have a chance. My experience is if I have hydras and they have thors it's a pretty one sided fight. Lots of dead hydras.
Also, I don't know how you micro against a unit that has longer range, two shots hydras and has 400 HP. Seriously, the Thor wins if it fires 8 times against 4 hydras. They can't even kite it because it has longer range. Maybe if they did damage, left before it fired a second time, healed for 3 minutes and then attacked again until the thor was dead. Or they were magic.
Well... Thors take longer to build than a Barracks. Three thors take about as long as ling speed. Thors are countered by Hydras/Roaches through numerical advantage--not cost efficiency. They build faster, can position faster, and are backed up by larva instead of factories. You trade lopsidedly early on and over time you reinforce more efficiently until they only have 1-3 Thors to your 15-20 roach/hydras.
Getting overly granular in the analysis leaves out so much that need to be focused on.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
I'm pretty sure if the Terran micros the Thor rather than A-move and let it it stand and shoot, the hydras have a chance. My experience is if I have hydras and they have thors it's a pretty one sided fight. Lots of dead hydras.
Also, I don't know how you micro against a unit that has longer range, two shots hydras and has 400 HP. Seriously, the Thor wins if it fires 8 times against 4 hydras. They can't even kite it because it has longer range. Maybe if they did damage, left before it fired a second time, healed for 3 minutes and then attacked again until the thor was dead. Or they were magic.
Well... Thors take longer to build than a Barracks. Three thors take about as long as ling speed. Thors are countered by Hydras/Roaches through numerical advantage--not cost efficiency. They build faster, can position faster, and are backed up by larva instead of factories. You trade lopsidedly early on and over time you reinforce more efficiently until they only have 1-3 Thors to your 15-20 roach/hydras.
Getting overly granular in the analysis leaves out so much that need to be focused on.
Well, and that is what I actually said at the start of the discussion until Spyridon claimed that Hydras were not just efficient in certain gameplay-specific ways (most notably production in the midgame), but straight up beating said units cost for cost. Then I simply tried to show that they don't. I think we have gone a full circle
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
So I guess we should all just stop arguing about the game and just play it. Clever, I would have never thought about that...
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
So I guess we should all just stop arguing about the game and just play it. Clever, I would have never thought about that...
No i mean literally, go play and see how it plays out, don't test some random scenario in unit tester and a-move random units to find out which composition is good. Theorycrafting around numbers is rarely how it works out in real games.
On February 08 2013 02:46 Jarree wrote: Holy shit they are planning on adding +shields dmg to mines! Isn't dmg+shielddmg what everyone wanted to be added to siegetank so it wouldn't be op in other matchups but would make it useful against P?
It is one of the suggestions.
I think it tends to lead to the larger debate of using these odd damage bonuses on certain units to account for specific matchup problems or even very specific moments of imbalance, so as to solve the problem without breaking things that are balanced.
I am not in favor as it seems to lead to short term solutions but doesn't address greater balance issues. It also continues to create more situations where units are only good in certain situations regardless of the skill of the player using, the micro, the attack position, etc. I'd like to see more instances where more units were productive at all times in the hands of the right player vs. amazing sometimes and worthless others.
I am a fan of the change and I have no problem with specific units doing more damage at specific set of units. I am part of the camp that says "Whatever gets the job done." People who talk about elegant design make me laugh, since BW has a way more messed up damage system and was totally under the hood. Most of the time, my plan was to shoot one unit with another unit and see how much damage it did.
Almost every game has different damage values based on specific situtations. There are skill shots in LoL that do more damage the farther away the target is. Another that does damage based on the targets total HP, or total magic power(AP). DotA as other weird abilities that do different damage values, including one that does damage the more the target moves.
A unit becomes stronger in a way if you mix it up with something more
Hydra+roach for example, roach tanks the damage, hydra do the damage Instead of pure Hydra.
There are so many things to considder as have been stated, hydra vs x may not be cost effeciency but throw in some lings or roaches or whatnot and you have an entire new unit sort of
On February 08 2013 02:46 Jarree wrote: Holy shit they are planning on adding +shields dmg to mines! Isn't dmg+shielddmg what everyone wanted to be added to siegetank so it wouldn't be op in other matchups but would make it useful against P?
It is one of the suggestions.
I think it tends to lead to the larger debate of using these odd damage bonuses on certain units to account for specific matchup problems or even very specific moments of imbalance, so as to solve the problem without breaking things that are balanced.
I am not in favor as it seems to lead to short term solutions but doesn't address greater balance issues. It also continues to create more situations where units are only good in certain situations regardless of the skill of the player using, the micro, the attack position, etc. I'd like to see more instances where more units were productive at all times in the hands of the right player vs. amazing sometimes and worthless others.
I am a fan of the change and I have no problem with specific units doing more damage at specific set of units. I am part of the camp that says "Whatever gets the job done." People who talk about elegant design make me laugh, since BW has a way more messed up damage system and was totally under the hood. Most of the time, my plan was to shoot one unit with another unit and see how much damage it did.
Almost every game has different damage values based on specific situtations. There are skill shots in LoL that do more damage the farther away the target is. Another that does damage based on the targets total HP, or total magic power(AP). DotA as other weird abilities that do different damage values, including one that does damage the more the target moves.
Football and basketball also have different point values depending on how the ball reached the hoop/endzone.
On February 07 2013 23:45 Big J wrote: This makes both of them really bad in the high supply, as no matter what the opponent does, you cannot use hydra and roach advantages of "just having more", because you are maxed. However with some small counterfocus (like 10+4vs armored hydras), there would actually be times where hydra armies would actually be good in the lategame.
Anyways, depending on how well viper play works, pulling/blinding units might actually be enough to get a big enough advantage in a combat, that hydras (and roaches) might be able to use their swarmpowers, even in the lategame.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
Neural an SCV and pump medivacs
No no, You should use the SCV to make mass orbitals and replace your drones with MULEs.
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
Neural an SCV and pump medivacs
No no, You should use the SCV to make mass orbitals and replace your drones with MULEs.
Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
there s a reason why progamers want u banned on the secret forum
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
I should be able to hold any position with zealots alone. Why? Because they are my favorite unit and I should be able to build only them. They should also be able to attack air units, because its dumb that I have to build other units that are not zealots to attack air. They should do bonus damage air units too, so people don't build air unit and fight my zealots on the ground.
This is what I hear every time people ask for the siege tanks to be buffed. I wasn't there when mech was first created in BW, but I am sure the person who did it did not just say "The core unit will be tanks". Just because you can't build unlimited numbers of the specific unit you care for does not mean that Blizzard should buff that unit. After all, I really like immortals, but they still can't beat mass zerglings.
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
Mech dont need buffs. Remove bio tag from Hellbat so that people will not use it when Bioing, but when meching - problem solved. When you are trying to make mech playable, blizzard, creating new biological unit, that is ideal to join bioball... coming out of factory... well... is step in oposite direction...
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
The silly thing about not even trying tank buffs is that the only match up it could possibly hurt balance-wise is TvZ, and not only are they not really a problem there now. but there's even more counters to them in hots than there are in WoL anyway.
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
Mech dont need buffs. Remove bio tag from Hellbat so that people will not use it when Bioing, but when meching - problem solved. When you are trying to make mech playable, blizzard, creating new biological unit, that is ideal to join bioball... coming out of factory... well... is step in oposite direction...
I'm imagining 3Hellbats 2SCV drops where Hellbats go in and out of the medivac two at a time with the third one being repaired by SCVs inside the medivac
Vipers work great as long as you micro them properly, I've seen Idra typically grab them before Infestors.
As for your comparisons of which units beat them, are we talking 1 vs 1? Or are we talking based on how many resources spent? 1 vs 1 you are correct, but with equal resource amounts of Hydras vs those units Hydras dont lose.
This is because, as been stated by the pros many times, Roach and Hydra are resource efficient, but not supply efficient.
This means they are best put to use with mid-game armies as the "first encounter" with some resources banked. At Hive tech just make a couple Vipers while you are teching to T3. You can have an initial encounter with Roach/Hydra/Viper and do the most damage you can, and once Vipers are out of energy bring them back to base. As they Roach/Hydra die you can use the banked resources to create your supply efficient T3 units and w/e else u need to counter the enemy composition.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
Neural an SCV and pump medivacs
No no, You should use the SCV to make mass orbitals and replace your drones with MULEs.
What if you neuraled a probe and built a lot of nexus for the chrono then chrono the hacteries so they make larvae faster?
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
Neural an SCV and pump medivacs
No no, You should use the SCV to make mass orbitals and replace your drones with MULEs.
What if you neuraled a probe and built a lot of nexus for the chrono then chrono the hacteries so they make larvae faster?
you wouldn't even need to use inject anymore
Even better--Neural a BW Probe, Neural Bisu, then have Bisu micro the probe and kill noobs with it.
We've been watching the Watch Tower change carefully on GSL. We think the change of removing the 2 Watch Towers is good for that map and are thinking of removing it on both Akilon Wastes and Akilon Flats.
We've been watching the Watch Tower change carefully on GSL. We think the change of removing the 2 Watch Towers is good for that map and are thinking of removing it on both Akilon Wastes and Akilon Flats.
Blizzard didn't even need to respond to that. They've proven that they don't know how to make a good map. They just need to follow the initiative of GSL/Kespa.
Hopefully we can get a more diverse ladder map pool with HotS. Tons of good undiscovered maps out there but no good way to promote them.
1Thor 300/200/6 beats 4hydralisks 400/200/8 1Immortal 250/100/4 beats 2hydralisks 200/100/4; but if you actually try to even out those 50minerals with 21hydras vs 9immortals hydras win. (3 : 7 ratio)
Range/speed Hydralisk vs stim/concussive marauder is a very close battle that the hydralisks win slightly more often in my testings, but it can vary. All of that with marauders that cost 25gas less per unit. Chargelot vs Hydras is just so extremly onesided, that I don't really tried to hit some sweetspot. Chargelots win. (24 vs 24 with chargelots approaching in a ball instead of spread, hydras being in a tight ball)
All of those tests are true for 0-0 upgrades. The Immortal and the Thor get advantages from better upgrades (3/3/0 Immortals do win vs 3/3 Hydras in the 3 : 7 ratio). Marauder vs Hydra stays the same. 3/3/0 Chargelots get insignificantly worse vs 3/3 hydras. (didn't test stalkers, because it depends on blinking a lot and therefore it varies strongly on skill and amount level - and I'm right now on my laggy laptop). But I believe I have done medium amounts like 20vs20 before and I think stalkers in those amounts win.
So in conclusion, the discussable units are marauders and immortals which basically break even with hydras (win/lose situation dependend). Zealots and Thors could be considered softcounters to hydralisks (that always beat hydras cost- and supplyefficiently)
At best this post is a gross mischaracterization. At worst, a full lie.
It completely ignores all micro, and therefore is invalid for this argument. As usual, starcraft is more nuanced than a-move then watch the pretty colors.
Go ahead. Make a better characterization about how the hydralisk is a counter to the Thor. And don't back out now. If you can call me a liar, you are hopefully capable of telling me how I can win with 4 hydras vs 1 Thor.
Big J, that is not how you argue on TL. One does not back up his claims. You make a bold statement and call someone uninformed or a liar. Then you cite some part of gameplay that could be applicable to the situation. The most important part is that you don’t provide facts, proof or examples for your opponent to pick apart. Just leave it all hanging, like you are some authority on the game and its your opponents burden to prove you wrong.
That is how you argue on TL, by always placing the burden of proof on your opponent. Facts are not welcome.
Damn it, I knew I was doing something wrong when I was testing those units against each others. Finally I know what it was. It was actually testing the costefficiency to argue it...
Maybe you should play the game instead of testing. Vipers pull thors and hydras oneshot them. End of story.
Or you can have an infestor neural parasite it. Hydra Thor is pretty strong I hear.
Neural an SCV and pump medivacs
No no, You should use the SCV to make mass orbitals and replace your drones with MULEs.
What if you neuraled a probe and built a lot of nexus for the chrono then chrono the hacteries so they make larvae faster?
you wouldn't even need to use inject anymore
Nah, it is just better go for airtoss straight away, maybe add some vipers and infestor mixed in to make your opponent to rip his/her hair off.
We've been watching the Watch Tower change carefully on GSL. We think the change of removing the 2 Watch Towers is good for that map and are thinking of removing it on both Akilon Wastes and Akilon Flats.
Blizzard didn't even need to respond to that. They've proven that they don't know how to make a good map. They just need to follow the initiative of GSL/Kespa.
Hopefully we can get a more diverse ladder map pool with HotS. Tons of good undiscovered maps out there but no good way to promote them.
They did follow GSL's initative it was called Metropolis...
You would be surprised how many GSL maps are trashed after just one season due to terrible balance or other general problems. GSL... well the Crux mapteam just knows how to make maps shiny most of the times. It would be a risky approach.
We've been watching the Watch Tower change carefully on GSL. We think the change of removing the 2 Watch Towers is good for that map and are thinking of removing it on both Akilon Wastes and Akilon Flats.
Blizzard didn't even need to respond to that. They've proven that they don't know how to make a good map. They just need to follow the initiative of GSL/Kespa.
Hopefully we can get a more diverse ladder map pool with HotS. Tons of good undiscovered maps out there but no good way to promote them.
I think Blizzard is doing the right thing by letting GSL and Kespa take the lead. Both groups much better data and have proven to make really good maps. Blizzard has a lot of focus on and why make more maps when GSL already has people on it?
We've been watching the Watch Tower change carefully on GSL. We think the change of removing the 2 Watch Towers is good for that map and are thinking of removing it on both Akilon Wastes and Akilon Flats.
Blizzard didn't even need to respond to that. They've proven that they don't know how to make a good map. They just need to follow the initiative of GSL/Kespa.
Hopefully we can get a more diverse ladder map pool with HotS. Tons of good undiscovered maps out there but no good way to promote them.
I think Blizzard is doing the right thing by letting GSL and Kespa take the lead. Both groups much better data and have proven to make really good maps. Blizzard has a lot of focus on and why make more maps when GSL already has people on it?
GSL and Kespa only go to Korean map makers though. GSL has a few they contact for maps over and over, and for Kespa you have to live in Korea and work with the map making team, speaking korean etc. Blizzard needs to look elsewhere as well or a lot of talent will be missed.
These are changes to ladder maps Blizzard made though. Akilon Wastes is considered a pretty good map and is made by Blizzard. They are just going to make some adjustments to it (no watchtowers) after it proved to be better for the map.
Am I the only one that realized that Tanks are completely useless vs P? Immortals, zealots, archons, and all air units absolutely murder tanks in less than a second. Then you include soft counters to tanks: Colossi, storms, DTs... So what does the tank actually manage to kill in TvP? Stalkers? Barely...Blizz please wake up :/
On February 08 2013 04:43 TimENT wrote: Am I the only one that realized that Tanks are completely useless vs P? Immortals, zealots, archons, and all air units absolutely murder tanks in less than a second. Then you include soft counters to tanks: Colossi, storms, DTs... So what does the tank actually manage to kill in TvP? Stalkers? Barely...Blizz please wake up :/
By soft counters, you mean units that can damage tanks right? Because you list DTs in there and DTs win against everything without detection.
On February 08 2013 04:43 TimENT wrote: Am I the only one that realized that Tanks are completely useless vs P? Immortals, zealots, archons, and all air units absolutely murder tanks in less than a second. Then you include soft counters to tanks: Colossi, storms, DTs... So what does the tank actually manage to kill in TvP? Stalkers? Barely...Blizz please wake up :/
I'm actually finding having 1-3 tanks as amazing vs protoss so long as you use them to target fire colossi/Templars. It allows you to keep them honest without too much commitment. You can't reach a critical mass of them, but having like 2 of them+ghosts allows you to emp/target fire temps easily.
On February 08 2013 04:43 TimENT wrote: Am I the only one that realized that Tanks are completely useless vs P? Immortals, zealots, archons, and all air units absolutely murder tanks in less than a second. Then you include soft counters to tanks: Colossi, storms, DTs... So what does the tank actually manage to kill in TvP? Stalkers? Barely...Blizz please wake up :/
I'm actually finding having 1-3 tanks as amazing vs protoss so long as you use them to target fire colossi/Templars. It allows you to keep them honest without too much commitment. You can't reach a critical mass of them, but having like 2 of them+ghosts allows you to emp/target fire temps easily.
Sieged tanks trade very well with pure colossi, last I checked? This assumes that both sides are getting equal milage out of their AOEs and the tanks get to take advantage of their 13 range.
On February 08 2013 04:43 TimENT wrote: Am I the only one that realized that Tanks are completely useless vs P? Immortals, zealots, archons, and all air units absolutely murder tanks in less than a second. Then you include soft counters to tanks: Colossi, storms, DTs... So what does the tank actually manage to kill in TvP? Stalkers? Barely...Blizz please wake up :/
I'm actually finding having 1-3 tanks as amazing vs protoss so long as you use them to target fire colossi/Templars. It allows you to keep them honest without too much commitment. You can't reach a critical mass of them, but having like 2 of them+ghosts allows you to emp/target fire temps easily.
Sieged tanks trade very well with pure colossi, last I checked? This assumes that both sides are getting equal milage out of their AOEs and the tanks get to take advantage of their 13 range.
Yeah, I've been testing a lot in my low rank and I find that any more than 1-3 (3 is too much usually) and I just lose too much bio DPS without enough gain in. Maybe I'm wrong and better players with faster hands can target fire more efficiently?
But 1 is usually out "front" to keep them honest while 1-2 are further back to punish them for pushing into the 1 tank. The goal is to to try to EMP temps--but to save most of the emps on Archons with tanks being used to target fire templars.
That's the plan--mostly what happens is I panic and right click everything and hope for the best (I'm platinum so I don't have the best execution)
On February 08 2013 03:57 avilo wrote: Perhaps the most inane thing about all this is that blizzard is willing to acknowledge mech tvp is still utter bullcrap, but instead of buffing the tank, they talk about the widow mine lol. Tanks are really what needs a buff, the core mech tvp unit. Not a mine that takes supply out of your army the longer the game goes on.
In longer games, you will not have many widow mines in your army because they are simply terrible supply-wise. So basically, they need to look at tanks. You should be able to hold a position against Protoss with siege tanks, not just lose to 1A when Protoss moves up a ramp, through siege tank fire, etc.
Why are you still fighting for this lol? I dont think a single top terran cares anymore about the tank or mech in tvp anymore.
Blizzard doesnt want tanks as stable support units in tvp they prefer the mobile bio play style, nor does 50% of the community that thinks a-moving up a ramp into pre positioned tanks with mech support should be a viable option.
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50?
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50?
I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens.
Playing as Terran vs Protoss is fine. Mech is actually possible if done right. Widow mine are actually really good in a straight up fight.....just not as good as map control. Terran have plenty of ways to play now.
Protoss vs Terran on the other hand is still centered around the collosus no matter what. If you don't have a collosus in your army it is very hard to win a straight up fight against terran. Unless you're a master of storms then PvT is fine too.
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50?
I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens.
Haha and he said it like he wanted it to be nerfed to the ground. I just want the mine to cost 2 supply man...
I guess there will be no patch today. So maybe Feb 14th is when the next patch comes out. Only 3 weeks left at that time, and we have tons of problems. This is hilarious.
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50?
I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens.
Haha and he said it like he wanted it to be nerfed to the ground. I just want the mine to cost 2 supply man...
Mines cost 3 supply?? Wow, that's just too much.
Some things just aren't fun, and screw balance, shouldn't be in the game. That's one.
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50?
I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens.
Haha and he said it like he wanted it to be nerfed to the ground. I just want the mine to cost 2 supply man...
Mines cost 3 supply?? Wow, that's just too much.
Some things just aren't fun, and screw balance, shouldn't be in the game. That's one.
On February 08 2013 06:12 larse wrote: I guess there will be no patch today. So maybe Feb 14th is when the next patch comes out. Only 3 weeks left at that time, and we have tons of problems. This is hilarious.
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It does friendly damage already. Zealots have less health+shields than stalkers. You mean the against shields damage needs to be increased as stalkers have 80 shields while zealots 50?
I think he is just confused, since everything he asked for already happens.
Haha and he said it like he wanted it to be nerfed to the ground. I just want the mine to cost 2 supply man...
Mines cost 3 supply?? Wow, that's just too much.
Some things just aren't fun, and screw balance, shouldn't be in the game. That's one.
I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
Anyway, I hope you brought your swimsuit, because I just brought a pools worth of salty terran tears.
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
It's simply misguided logic.
People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play.
Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines.
However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role)
So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game.
On February 08 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Oh, really? Welp, I guess they have to take out all the broodlings and locusts now, since they have a no-infinite-free-unit policy.
But a few mines per hellion (or other unit) is totally out of the question.
Blizzard is changing things that aren't broken just to say they changed them. And they are failing because of that need to make a mark on a game that was perfectly fine before they came along, and which they are unable to accept is better made than any of their work.
The Siege Tank in Brood War was perfectly fine. This 3 supply, 125 gas unit that deals a fraction of the damage is obviously useless by comparison, and the only justification from Blizzard is they "don't like players to play defensively." Oh, Colossi and Infestor Broodlord don't create the same problem, to a much larger extent, without the tank's weaknesses?
I don't know how you're supposed to 'just run away from void rays', they're pretty fast, the buff lasts quite long and there is only a short cooldown. I think they misjudged how cool this ability would be.
On February 08 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Oh, really? Welp, I guess they have to take out all the broodlings and locusts now, since they have a no-infinite-free-unit policy.
But a few mines per hellion (or other unit) is totally out of the question.
Blizzard is changing things that aren't broken just to say they changed them. And they are failing because of that need to make a mark on a game that was perfectly fine before they came along, and which they are unable to accept is better made than any of their work.
The Siege Tank in Brood War was perfectly fine. This 3 supply, 125 gas unit that deals a fraction of the damage is obviously useless by comparison, and the only justification from Blizzard is they "don't like players to play defensively." Oh, Colossi and Infestor Broodlord don't create the same problem, to a much larger extent, without the tank's weaknesses?
And hellions are already more expensive than vultures, and nothing's forcing Blizzard to give them three mines for free, it could just as easily be two mines. But I think this ship has sailed, the widow mine exists and it's not going to go away.
I do think that tanks were slightly too strong in Brood War. It worked out in that game anyway, but tank lines were so hard to break. On the other hand, SC2 overcompensates and has a situation where sieged up tanks are barely stronger than unsieged ones.
On February 08 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote: People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Oh, really? Welp, I guess they have to take out all the broodlings and locusts now, since they have a no-infinite-free-unit policy.
But a few mines per hellion (or other unit) is totally out of the question.
Blizzard is changing things that aren't broken just to say they changed them. And they are failing because of that need to make a mark on a game that was perfectly fine before they came along, and which they are unable to accept is better made than any of their work.
The Siege Tank in Brood War was perfectly fine. This 3 supply, 125 gas unit that deals a fraction of the damage is obviously useless by comparison, and the only justification from Blizzard is they "don't like players to play defensively." Oh, Colossi and Infestor Broodlord don't create the same problem, to a much larger extent, without the tank's weaknesses?
Broodlords cant have more than 6 SH can't have more than 2
Vultures land 3 mines, die, mines still exist. over time, infinite mines exist no matter how often vultures die.
It's the same logic they used with Overseers. "Can't have it have active spells because what happens when you have infinite overseers?"
EDIT:
As for the siege tank,
And it's not "a fraction" of the damage since Siege Tanks deal only 20 less damage to large units--everything else stays the same as BW.
The +25 gas and +1 supply is a massive blow though.
25% gas cost increase and a 50% supply cost increase.
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
It's simply misguided logic.
People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play.
Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines.
However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role)
So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game.
So what your thinking is that Widowmine + Bioball is currently drawing a lot of parrallels to Broodwar Mech, and people aren't noticing it because symantics and visual differences. I have no opinion on this, I have never played broodwar.
All I know is that the widowmines design in SC2 has what I consider very serious game design flaws.
So concidering the Time it got posted and that there have been no further patchnotes or anything (eccept for the change to akilon flats but thats kinda unrelated)
Did we make them change their plans? Usually, especially for beta, posts like this are followed by first patchnotes or further detail withing a day or two. I sure hope we at least made them work on the less fundemental issues such as Hellbat, Widdowmine, Hydra balance wise.
I think we can already forget fundemental (design) issues such as Corruptor, Colosus, economy system, highground advantage, forcefields and warpgates for HotS, maby LotV. That would actually make sense since they don´t really want to add more units in LotV so why not clean up all the mess they create with WoL and HotS in LotV so ppl have to buy all 3 games to have a great SC2. Thats one hell of a business plan :D
(for anyone who didnt see it, the last part is a joke, coming from my bitterness but still a joke ^^)
I wish they could just implement mines into hellitons for tvp but they can't. Mines would completely fuck the TvZ matchup because overlords don't start off with detection. Too much would have to change if hellions suddenly could lay mines. They'd have to change build time on factory or hellions which could unbalance the whole game. When the game is 1 month away, there is just no way they'll do major changes at this point.
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
It's simply misguided logic.
People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play.
Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines.
However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role)
So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game.
So what your thinking is that Widowmine + Bioball is currently drawing a lot of parrallels to Broodwar Mech, and people aren't noticing it because symantics and visual differences. I have no opinion on this, I have never played broodwar.
All I know is that the widowmines design in SC2 has what I consider very serious game design flaws.
You know most of the time, people ask that you back up statments like this, rather than just saying them out loud then waiting for someone to disagree with you.
For example, if I went "Golf is the the most difficult sport in the world. All other sports are flawed" you would think I would need to back that up with something.
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
It's simply misguided logic.
People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play.
Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines.
However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role)
So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game.
So what your thinking is that Widowmine + Bioball is currently drawing a lot of parrallels to Broodwar Mech, and people aren't noticing it because symantics and visual differences. I have no opinion on this, I have never played broodwar.
All I know is that the widowmines design in SC2 has what I consider very serious game design flaws.
Personally I find Widow Mines stupid.
But from what I'm seeing when watching Day9 that's what it abstractly looks like. Not direct mind you--and nowhere near as intricate or fascinating (albeit that may be bias) but yes, it's what it is looking like.
On February 08 2013 05:28 RifleCow wrote: Make widow mine do damage to your own units + increase it's damage so it kills zealots in 3 but stalkers in 2. You now have micro and area control.
It already damages your own units if there hasn't been some patch I missed. Also that sounds like a dumb way to increase micro.
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
It's simply misguided logic.
People are asking for Spider Mines when Blizzard has a no-infinite-free unit policy.
Blizz mistakenly decided to give in and make a 2 supply mine instead of a shredder. This led to stupid. They went back to the Shredder idea and now it works as a low supply defensive siege tank. With this new unit--people can now do something akin to old style mech play.
Widow Mines as tanks, marines/marauders as vultures, Planetary Fortresses defending expos as spider mines.
However, despite getting this play style back, people are upset that it doesn't involve mines and siege tanks. So now we have people comparing Spider Mines to Widow mines (and getting confused as to why the Widow Mine doesn't fulfill that role) while at the same time asking why tanks aren't buffed (forgetting that Widow Mines are slowly taking over that role)
So no, we are not closer to what people think of Mech and it's not because we don't have the playstyle--it's because the playstyle is not factory centric. Really it's a Rax/Fac/Port centric playstyle that supports mines with MMM while applying pressure with Hellbat drops all the while transitioning to a Hellbat/Marauder/Marine/medivac late game.
So what your thinking is that Widowmine + Bioball is currently drawing a lot of parrallels to Broodwar Mech, and people aren't noticing it because symantics and visual differences. I have no opinion on this, I have never played broodwar.
All I know is that the widowmines design in SC2 has what I consider very serious game design flaws.
You know most of the time, people ask that you back up statments like this, rather than just saying them out loud then waiting for someone to disagree with you.
For example, if I went "Golf is the the most difficult sport in the world. All other sports are flawed" you would think I would need to back that up with something.
I made my point earlier, you even quoted the spoilers that contained it. + Show Spoiler +
On February 08 2013 06:33 nottapro wrote: I don't think you can make Mech much more stable by buffing an inherently instable random target fire unit.
Target fire and the option to cease fire would be a much better buff then increasing damage to shields, in my opinion.
It seems to fly in the face of logic, that Blizzard won't implement highground mechanics because of the random/luck factor involved, but gives Terran a core Mech unit that relies entirely on it.
Secondly, just like the siege tank, its easily hard countered by Protoss. Cloaked observers negate the most effective aspect of the unit, its ability to catch units off guard. Buffing a hard countered unreliable unit, its not going to bring stability to TvP Mech.
They should just remove the bio flag from Hellbat. That would help Hellbats vs heavy Zealot/Archon/Immortal play. Also, this would mean Hellbats can't be healed by medivac, which would be nice nerf to Hellbat drops that are causing so many problems. Twe issues with one change.
On February 08 2013 08:04 Everlong wrote: They should just remove the bio flag from Hellbat. That would help Hellbats vs heavy Zealot/Archon/Immortal play. Also, this would mean Hellbats can't be healed by medivac, which would be nice nerf to Hellbat drops that are causing so many problems. Twe issues with one change.
Personally, I would love for 3 things to happen.
1.) Remove cooldown on medivac speed. 2.) Have it cost 25 energy per boost 3.) Hellbat is no longer biological
Reasons: Hitting the speedboost 2-3 times will drain too much energy for the medivac to properly heal. It would give a different flavor between mech drops and bio drops since mech drops don't care about energy conservation Hellbats would need to have 2 scvs on autorepair inside the medivac in order for them to be healed in combat
On February 08 2013 08:04 Everlong wrote: They should just remove the bio flag from Hellbat. That would help Hellbats vs heavy Zealot/Archon/Immortal play. Also, this would mean Hellbats can't be healed by medivac, which would be nice nerf to Hellbat drops that are causing so many problems. Twe issues with one change.
Personally, I would love for 3 things to happen.
1.) Remove cooldown on medivac speed. 2.) Have it cost 25 energy per boost 3.) Hellbat is no longer biological
Reasons: Hitting the speedboost 2-3 times will drain too much energy for the medivac to properly heal. It would give a different flavor between mech drops and bio drops since mech drops don't care about energy conservation Hellbats would need to have 2 scvs on autorepair inside the medivac in order for them to be healed in combat
All good things
I agree, the problem with hellbat drops is also it comes too fast due to 2-3x speed boost activation. Hopefully Blizzard is not going to nerf Hellbat's health/damage, because that would make mech very fragile TvP and TvZ again.
Was really hoping for a hellbat change...when four hbs can take out an immortal and two stalkers there is a serious problem. I still haven't figured out how to deal with it effectively as zerg, aside from having 6 or so queens. Widow Mines are still not doing what they were originally intended for, space control. I feel like they will eventually be nerfed, the way that reapers were, to the point no one uses them. Please give the Hydra an AA buff. Increase their range vs air or something. They cost a fortune to get them usable and they still melt to carriers/HT/tanks/colosis etc.
On February 08 2013 08:04 Everlong wrote: They should just remove the bio flag from Hellbat. That would help Hellbats vs heavy Zealot/Archon/Immortal play. Also, this would mean Hellbats can't be healed by medivac, which would be nice nerf to Hellbat drops that are causing so many problems. Twe issues with one change.
Personally, I would love for 3 things to happen.
1.) Remove cooldown on medivac speed. 2.) Have it cost 25 energy per boost 3.) Hellbat is no longer biological
Reasons: Hitting the speedboost 2-3 times will drain too much energy for the medivac to properly heal. It would give a different flavor between mech drops and bio drops since mech drops don't care about energy conservation Hellbats would need to have 2 scvs on autorepair inside the medivac in order for them to be healed in combat
All good things
I agree, the problem with hellbat drops is also it comes too fast due to 2-3x speed boost activation. Hopefully Blizzard is not going to nerf Hellbat's health/damage, because that would make mech very fragile TvP and TvZ again.
they should do something to make Zerglings usefull vs T again becasue not only the Hellbat makes them a waste of minerals and larva but the widdow mine aswell. I honestly don´t know how that would be done. IMO the best way would be to slow down the Hellbat attackspeed (with possibly a buff to the damage so the dps stays the same incase it´s needed)
I seriously question that Blizzard will deliver a half decently balanced game upon release. I've been playing the betas since November and for me it has never felt as broken as it is right now (not even close). I think its safe to say that we run into the danger the first big HotS tournaments will become a major joke.
On February 08 2013 08:39 .syd. wrote: I seriously question that Blizzard will deliver a half decently balanced game upon release. I've been playing the betas since November and for me it has never felt as broken as it is right now (not even close). I think its safe to say that we run into the danger the first big HotS tournaments will become a major joke.
I have no doubt it won't be very balanced, but in Blizzards defense, it is hard to balance until the game reaches the masses/gets flushed out by the pros. It is easy to look back after the fact and be like "that was so unbalanced how did Blizzard not realize" when it just wasn't something done in beta or exposed. Now there are some glaring things that we all scratch our heads at on release... but I do think no amount of beta or internal testing can expose all the imbalances until those first few tournaments. Just hope that you are playing the OP race those first few events and hopefully cash in right?
On February 05 2013 03:43 Valon wrote: So when are they going to buff zerg AA so we can actually win against sky toss late game?
Kidding, right?
Have you not seen any ZvP lategame lately?
ya and for some reason zerg still thinks it should build broodlords verse skytoss. I have a tip, build something else
Wait what? I don't see broodlords much in zvp but you obviously lied if you are saying you are watching zvp late game.
Zerg armies melt to voidray/templar/colossi. Our only anti air that can "fight" that (by fight means watch it die and barely event touch the toss army) is hydra/corruptor/infestor. Which voidrays kill corruptors in 3-5 seconds (no not exaggerating at all either) and voidrays do good verse hydra let alone storm/colossi.
Sky toss needs a nerf or zerg AA needs a nice buff.
On February 05 2013 03:43 Valon wrote: So when are they going to buff zerg AA so we can actually win against sky toss late game?
Kidding, right?
Have you not seen any ZvP lategame lately?
ya and for some reason zerg still thinks it should build broodlords verse skytoss. I have a tip, build something else
Wait what? I don't see broodlords much in zvp but you obviously lied if you are saying you are watching zvp late game.
Zerg armies melt to voidray/templar/colossi. Our only anti air that can "fight" that (by fight means watch it die and barely event touch the toss army) is hydra/corruptor/infestor. Which voidrays kill corruptors in 3-5 seconds (no not exaggerating at all either) and voidrays do good verse hydra let alone storm/colossi.
Sky toss needs a nerf or zerg AA needs a nice buff.
This is exactly what zergs used to say when Yongwha used to 3base turtle into Void/Collosus on Crevass wasnt it?
Why are people so scared of hellbat drops? They arent more dangerous than 4 BFH, 8 marines or 4 marauders!!! They can not be stimmed and are pretty slow,so you can save workers pulling them.The drop in early game is very easy to scout(scan,reaper for T/obs,hallu phoenix for P/Overlord for Z)so you can prepare.
On February 08 2013 09:55 Dvriel wrote: Why are people so scared of hellbat drops? They arent more dangerous than 4 BFH, 8 marines or 4 marauders!!! They can not be stimmed and are pretty slow,so you can save workers pulling them.The drop in early game is very easy to scout(scan,reaper for T/obs,hallu phoenix for P/Overlord for Z)so you can prepare.
Because, for the most part, human beings are scared of learning.
I personally cannot stand this beta. Plenty of units seem like they are obsolete to use.
For Zerg, why should I use Zerglings against Terran? Hell bats will slaughter these in a matter of seconds & if they have medivac healing them then I'm just wasting minerals. Hydralisks are still fairly poor units. They cost too much for how easy they die and don't have a lot of uses.
As a Zerg player, I feel like I need to survive long enough (use roaches only early game) and transition into Mutalisks then into Brood/Corrupter/Roach/Queens vs Terran.
Vs. Protoss: The All-in Immortal/Sentry with Mothership Core doing harassment is such a pain to deal with. If you manage to kill off sentries, they'll recall the Immortals home & retry again. If you want to base trade then they'll just recall them home & slaughter you.
I will admit that I'm struggling mightily in this game with these new additions and I'm sure eventually the counters will "come to me" but until then I'm not liking this at all & becoming dis-interested in the game.
I don't even know what to say about the direction HOTS has gone in. I'm a Zerg player and the fact that the widow mine is the only new T unit is just utter garbage to me. Z at least has gotten some nice options, but the SH is really underwhelming. I strongly feel that Protoss will be the best race in HOTS for some time, as they get the HUGE MAJORITY of new powerful features/units.
Why all the hellbat complaining? You guys know it can't shoot beyond arm range, right? Micro your damn units!
As to the guy that said he was surprised when two stalkers and an immortal lost to 4 hellbats, I'm not if you sat there and tanked their damage. Hellbats aren't armoured, they take no bonus damage from immortals or stalkers. You deal with Hellbats by using Colossi or feedbacking medivacs or, even better, just moving out of their range :p
Why are people so scared of hellbat drops? They arent more dangerous than 4 BFH, 8 marines or 4 marauders!!! They can not be stimmed and are pretty slow,so you can save workers pulling them.The drop in early game is very easy to scout(scan,reaper for T/obs,hallu phoenix for P/Overlord for Z)so you can prepare.
4 hellbats are more dangerous than 8 marines and 4 marauders but nowhere even close to as dangerous as 4 BFH. I know people have this thing for "THIS UNIT IS OP WTF" but you basically have to pull off the perfect hellbat drop to get them to do any damage at all against probes. Hellions on the other hand can not only be dropped and do comparable burst damage to probes but will always chase them down.
On February 08 2013 10:13 Evangelist wrote: Why all the hellbat complaining? You guys know it can't shoot beyond arm range, right? Micro your damn units!
As to the guy that said he was surprised when two stalkers and an immortal lost to 4 hellbats, I'm not if you sat there and tanked their damage. Hellbats aren't armoured, they take no bonus damage from immortals or stalkers. You deal with Hellbats by using Colossi or feedbacking medivacs or, even better, just moving out of their range :p
Why are people so scared of hellbat drops? They arent more dangerous than 4 BFH, 8 marines or 4 marauders!!! They can not be stimmed and are pretty slow,so you can save workers pulling them.The drop in early game is very easy to scout(scan,reaper for T/obs,hallu phoenix for P/Overlord for Z)so you can prepare.
4 hellbats are more dangerous than 8 marines and 4 marauders but nowhere even close to as dangerous as 4 BFH. I know people have this thing for "THIS UNIT IS OP WTF" but you basically have to pull off the perfect hellbat drop to get them to do any damage at all against probes. Hellions on the other hand can not only be dropped and do comparable burst damage to probes but will always chase them down.
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. There IS a lot that can be done to avoid the hellbats, but the problem most people are complaining about is the (especially in TvT) the hellbat/drop opening is far more prevelant, coinflippy, and far LESS all in than the 4 gate EVER was in PvP.
Also, I'm guessing you didn't watch Innovation vs TY (Bogus vs Baby) yesterday on MLG? + Show Spoiler +
Axeltoss and Axslav tried their best to not talk about how fucking silly these games were, but you can't watch these and not laugh or cry or both. Hellbat's dominate the XvT matchup now. There's no possible argument there.
Why are people so scared of hellbat drops? They arent more dangerous than 4 BFH, 8 marines or 4 marauders!!! They can not be stimmed and are pretty slow,so you can save workers pulling them.The drop in early game is very easy to scout(scan,reaper for T/obs,hallu phoenix for P/Overlord for Z)so you can prepare.
4 hellbats are more dangerous than 8 marines and 4 marauders but nowhere even close to as dangerous as 4 BFH. I know people have this thing for "THIS UNIT IS OP WTF" but you basically have to pull off the perfect hellbat drop to get them to do any damage at all against probes. Hellions on the other hand can not only be dropped and do comparable burst damage to probes but will always chase them down.
In case you haven't seen the series I mentioned in my last post/a TL;DR for it, something we saw that basically nullifies all the arguments for doing any other type of drop was the use of Ignite Afterburners (medivac speed) to pick up and drop the hellbats on top of whatever is running away (marines, stalkers, probes, drones, scvs, etc etc). No ground unit can outrun IA Medivacs, and with a MINOR amount of offensive medivac micro, which I would say is an intermediate micro technique at best, you can chase down and easily destroy ANY ground units.
On February 08 2013 10:13 Evangelist wrote: Why all the hellbat complaining? You guys know it can't shoot beyond arm range, right? Micro your damn units!
As to the guy that said he was surprised when two stalkers and an immortal lost to 4 hellbats, I'm not if you sat there and tanked their damage. Hellbats aren't armoured, they take no bonus damage from immortals or stalkers. You deal with Hellbats by using Colossi or feedbacking medivacs or, even better, just moving out of their range :p
Why are people so scared of hellbat drops? They arent more dangerous than 4 BFH, 8 marines or 4 marauders!!! They can not be stimmed and are pretty slow,so you can save workers pulling them.The drop in early game is very easy to scout(scan,reaper for T/obs,hallu phoenix for P/Overlord for Z)so you can prepare.
4 hellbats are more dangerous than 8 marines and 4 marauders but nowhere even close to as dangerous as 4 BFH. I know people have this thing for "THIS UNIT IS OP WTF" but you basically have to pull off the perfect hellbat drop to get them to do any damage at all against probes. Hellions on the other hand can not only be dropped and do comparable burst damage to probes but will always chase them down.
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you're saying. There IS a lot that can be done to avoid the hellbats, but the problem most people are complaining about is the (especially in TvT) the hellbat/drop opening is far more prevelant, coinflippy, and far LESS all in than the 4 gate EVER was in PvP.
Also, I'm guessing you didn't watch Innovation vs TY (Bogus vs Baby) yesterday on MLG? + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpvC_OvBB9c
Axeltoss and Axslav tried their best to not talk about how fucking silly these games were, but you can't watch these and not laugh or cry or both. Hellbat's dominate the XvT matchup now. There's no possible argument there.
That video just made me realize how much I dislike this unit. How exciting is it to race to a build then exchange fights like this? People claim ZvsZ got boring
Right? It feels so much like early WoL 4 gate wars. If you didn't 4 gate, you lost. if you 4 gated too slowly, you lost. If you 4 gated and had the wrong composition you lost. Hellbats are the same now. Except they are almost as good as they are in TvT in TvZ and TvP too, whereas 4 gate was never really that prevalent in the non-mirror Protoss match ups.
Watching the whole Bogus vs Baby series is pretty interesting because they get to a point where they both know they're going hellbat drop, but they also know that if they don't defend it'll be a base race like game 1 again. They try vikings, they try banshees, they try widow mines, they try tanks, they try normal hellions, they try marauders, and still the hellbats roll it all.