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Note: all info in this thread is based on the SC2 build shown at PAX, which, though the CMs believed it was the same as the one at Blizzcon, was not confirmed as such, so there may be differences.
I have just come back from PAX, where blizzard had a large booth in the expo hall. Karune and a good number of other Blizzard employees were there and playing people, giving out beta keys to anyone who beat them.
I talked to Karune about the 1-hatch queen imbalance that TL had apparently found, and he was utterly unconvinced that it is the game winner it claims to be. He did acknowledge to the fact that it is a very powerful build, but that somebody who knows the game past trying to play like you do in BW can counter it without too much problem. He then went into a few details on the counter for toss.
basic BO for protoss counter, though I don't know the new supply timings they are fairly intuitive and doesn't include cutting probes.
Pylon at choke + scout, seeing 10-pool 2x GW at choke making a soft wall-in 1 zealot wide (this is easy with the new way buildings block paths) on most current maps 6lings from 10 pool get there just after the 1st zealot spawns, and just as the 2nd GW finishes. The zealot is in a gap 1-2 zerglings wide, meaning heavy losses, if you attempt to kill the zealot you may get in with 2-3 lings before the next 2 zealots pop out, but with the new zealots + worker micro, the choke remains solid while the 2-3 lings are dispatched This comes down to that the toss has a choke to defend with zealots against lings, and this works very much the same way it does in BW, very badly for the zerg At this point the zerg is facing both the threat of a 2-gate rush and an essentially unbreakable choke for lings The protoss gets their obelisk and both gas right after the 2-gates push off the attack and they see if the zerg is continuing to press with lings (in which case keep a healthy number of zealots pumping) or swapping to hydras. Going to hydra tech, still off 1-base, as trying to get an expansion means the protoss can overrun you with his 2-gate (queen cannot prevent scouts that are not on the creep, meaning your natural is scout-able) As the protoss staying 1-base, whatever build it could be, from lair teching to mass hydra, the toss just needs to tech up slightly to stalkers warp gates and disruptors. Now comes where the toss has to weather out the mass hydras until zealot charge finishes, which is done by a combination of stalkers on the ledge (all current maps provide a ramp for your main) and well placed force fields from the disruptors. The goal here is to micro back any stalkers on the ledge with low shields, preventing the hydras from getting free pot shots at the buildings from the low-ground (using overlord for the vision) as well as blocking off the ramp if 5-6 hydras get to the top, cutting off their escape and trapping them in range of the stalker force behind the gates. What we/Karune found was that the toss is able to hold the choke without spamming just stalkers, allowing for a large combined group of zealots with charge and some stalker backup to cut through any amount of hydras you can get off 1-hatch.
At this point in the game it devolves into either a quick protoss steamroll, or a drawn out fight where it goes back and forth in the middle, essentially a fair game.
Karune, being primarily a Protoss player was unable to comment on specifics about the terran counter, but mentioned that it is the overpowering strat in ZvZ currently, and they are looking at ways to freshen up that match-up.
From what I observed of I believe Cydra playing terran, his off-race, he was able to hold his ramp by double supply depot + barracks wall-in, lifting the barracks and building a bunker in the spot the moment a chance appears. We didn't see him truly tested against a polished 6-ling into hydra build though, which was unfortunate.
In the games played, both against other blizzard employees and attendees 1-hatch queen's initial fury caught a number a bit off-guard, but soon defensive builds combined with timing attacks early mid-game were at the very least on balance with the people doing 1-hatch queen. I won't try and pretend we were experts at the game, so it may be that we are doing something with 1-hatch different then you guys were, but Karune's challenge to anyone trying it against him stood up, and he remained undefeated through all his games.
Additional notes, this may be completely wrong, it's just some observations I made after a successful muta harass. In the one longer game I played against a Terran Cydra, I found how I believe muta harass will work now. In BW you're very able to micro well enough to kill off marines from the terran ball. This doesn't seem to be very true anymore. The change that makes muta harass still very viable though, is the removal of the medic. Since there is no Medic unit until starport, he will not have any significant numbers of them by the time you have your muta harass in full swing, in addition, they are slow and vulnerable. In BW the reason the terran always had his marines in generally the correct area without having to split up was due to being able to stim, relying on medics to heal up that bit of damage. With no medics there, if the terran is not stimming his marines, you are able to dance around his base with your mutas picking off all sorts of things, simply moving when the marine ball arrives. If he is stimming, wait until they are all low hp, and then begin your harass on the marines. when you can split your shots and kill 5-10 marines/muta volley it's already over. If he has some medivacs around, generally I found they lagged behind the marine force and had slow healing (simply because of the reduced numbers compared to BW medics)
edit: couple spelling errors etc.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Congrats, you've won the "Daily MVP Award" for the SC2 forum. Good job! This post will definitely be useful.
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Zerg can make a few buildings (like 4?) And then just mass one unit and protoss needs to do all kinds of stuff to have a game? Sounds OK but not optimal to me. And about the muta harass, it's basically It's like in SC (no medics).
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Sounds like muta harass is brutal, and with hydras 4 shotting marines, terran might have to metal against zerg.
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Nice read! Do you have an idea of the highest iccup rank that lost to karune?
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Nice post. Thanks for the writeup.
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On September 07 2009 18:54 FortuneSyn wrote: Nice read! Do you have an idea of the highest iccup rank that lost to karune? I know there were at least some C+'s around, Karune says he's at about 200 APM in SC2 and that he only really loses to David Kim in the company if that gives you an idea of his skill level.
Also, Karune mentioned how Blizzard has a weekly Thursday "Game Night" where a large portion of the SC2 team + others gets together in the theater for a series of matches where different people practice shoutcasting the matches. It also is where they see the more creative BOs come out for the current build, as the different employees want to win on-stage, practicing and researching the current version for what will work.
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Karune said pretty much the same thing when I talked to him there, he wasn't worried at all that 1hatQ builds were out of control. He had some good points on how toss could counter it off one base, but I didn't hear anything particularly effective from him on how the other races would deal with it. He also told me that forge/FE was just as viable PvZ as it was in original starcraft, having no personal experience against a fast expo with 1hatQ I didn't press him on this, but from what I remember of TL's blizzcon experience, forge/FE was supposedly suicidal against a 1hat hydra bust.
I really should have brought up the fact that it's impossible to get any scouting information against the queen either, and you would still be reduced to guessing whether or not you need to take all those extra defensive measures just to survive an early 1hatQ attack. I left after 3:30 so I didn't see karune play against anyone who wasn't an absolute noob, I don't think any of the TL readers or the people that won beta keys got to play against him while I was there.
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On September 07 2009 19:08 CauthonLuck wrote: Karune said pretty much the same thing when I talked to him there, he wasn't worried at all that 1hatQ builds were out of control. He had some good points on how toss could counter it off one base, but I didn't hear anything particularly effective from him on how the other races would deal with it. He also told me that forge/FE was just as viable PvZ as it was in original starcraft, having no personal experience against a fast expo with 1hatQ I didn't press him on this, but from what I remember of TL's blizzcon experience, forge/FE was supposedly suicidal against a 1hat hydra bust.
I really should have brought up the fact that it's impossible to get any scouting information against the queen either, and you would still be reduced to guessing whether or not you need to take all those extra defensive measures just to survive an early 1hatQ attack. I left after 3:30 so I didn't see karune play against anyone who wasn't an absolute noob, I don't think any of the TL readers or the people that won beta keys got to play against him while I was there.
I don't see forge fast expand working in the current build with larva inject how it is. Right now I'd say terran may need a small boost early game to vs the current incarnation of 1-hatch queen on a semi-level playing field. We also have to remember, that it is not a bad thing to have a matchup where one side is forced to defend hard against the other, until they can tech up.
I was one of the beta-key winners later in the day against Cydra, the long drawn out 20 minute ZvT game.
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Yo Shiladie, excellent writeup! Congrats again on the beta key.
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Ok, so just like in the other thread, i'll say let's see in the beta whether it needs adjustments. The idea is not flawed...
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Sounds like rampless maps or maps with wide chokes are not longer an option in SC2 which map be a bit limiting for mapmakers
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I have not played SC2 but wouldn't just attacking the furthest gateway from the soft-zeal choak take it down before more zeals pop?
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In the other thread, there's a bunch of people who claim to have beaten them with 1hatQ while playing SC2 for the first time.
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On September 07 2009 18:24 Shiladie wrote: on most current maps 6lings from 10 pool get there just after the 1st zealot spawns, and just as the 2nd GW finishes.
why would zerg want to make lings before queen?
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Zurich15234 Posts
Can't wait to play again :-)
Imho this (the P build) is exactly what everyone tried. I now I have, and I played against it too. The problem still remains that you can not scout what the Zerg is doing with their larvae. If the Zerg is smart and just checks your build constantly they should be able to outproduce you safely still. I had I think 3 ZvP in a row against HB and the games he won with P with this build was when he was constantly hiding probes on the map to suicide them into my base for scouting - which would probably not work against a more able Zerg.
Also note that the few of us at those events are just screwing around. The better the players and the more understood the game is, the more powerful the "larvae uncertainty" will be.
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I haven't played SC2, but I have a question about scouting Zergs. Why is everyone saying you cannot scout the Zerg because of the queen? I thought the queen did very little damage, could you not simply run in with a probe, look real quick and run out?
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Zurich15234 Posts
On September 07 2009 20:47 Salv wrote: I haven't played SC2, but I have a question about scouting Zergs. Why is everyone saying you cannot scout the Zerg because of the queen? I thought the queen did very little damage, could you not simply run in with a probe, look real quick and run out? I don't know why everyone says that. Zerglings are faster than workers and due to improved pathing constantly get hits on the scout while pursuing it, even when just told to a-move. The queen only adds to that should the worker come near the hatchery.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Pylon at choke + scout, seeing 10-poo
I thought it was a 13 pool? Which, if I'm correct, means you are not rushing or even trying to rush, all you are doing is keeping his probe from seeing what you are doing.
The protoss gets their obelisk and both gas right after the 2-gates push off the attack and they see if the zerg is continuing to press with lings (in which case keep a healthy number of zealots pumping) or swapping to hydras.
How ?
Anyway, I have no idea if it's actually imbalanced or not, but I think the above two points are interesting.
As for the comment about "trying to play like you would in BW" - what Karune described is EXACTLY how you'd play vs a 1 base (or other type of all-in) build in BW, with the possible difference of adding cannons.
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Russian Federation124 Posts
meh i think zerg are underpowered
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From what I understand, the power of the 1 hatch hydra strat is the fact that you can be pumping drones while protoss pumps lots and they won't know you're droning up until its too late(when you have a overwhelming advantage). You see exactly what protoss is doing with your overloard and can build just enough units to defend an attack while protoss has no idea what you're doing.
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Braavos36362 Posts
obviously 1-hatch hydra dies to someone knowing its coming, its that they don't know its coming, its a virtual coinflip. i don't think i ever said its unbeatable, just that the Queen mechanic can put Zerg far ahead after early game.
i can't control the TL bandwagon having never played SC2 and crying QUEEN IMBA because my conclusion at the end is that Zerg early game is vastly superior than T and P because of the Queen being so much better than obelisk and mule. That said, I wasn't sure they should nerf it because we weren't sure how the mid and late game balance worked out.
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On September 08 2009 00:28 Hot_Bid wrote: obviously 1-hatch hydra dies to someone knowing its coming, its that they don't know its coming, its a virtual coinflip. i don't think i ever said its unbeatable, just that the Queen mechanic can put Zerg far ahead after early game.
i can't control the TL bandwagon having never played SC2 and crying QUEEN IMBA because my conclusion at the end is that Zerg early game is vastly superior than T and P because of the Queen being so much better than obelisk and mule. That said, I wasn't sure they should nerf it because we weren't sure how the mid and late game balance worked out.
Hot_Bid I just want to say that your article was very well done and you should continue to do them. Even if people will overreact.
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Braavos36362 Posts
thanks, i won't be playing the beta though, i have school
to add to that, i think they can re-balance the queen if they make worker scouting ai better (ie workers don't auto die to 2 lings)
one of the biggest skills in BW was being able to keep your scout alive / killing the opposing scout, and by removing that blizzard is essentially removing a huge part of what separated good from bad players.
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On September 08 2009 01:07 Hot_Bid wrote: thanks, i won't be playing the beta though, i have school
to add to that, i think they can re-balance the queen if they make worker scouting ai better (ie workers don't auto die to 2 lings)
one of the biggest skills in BW was being able to keep your scout alive / killing the opposing scout, and by removing that blizzard is essentially removing a huge part of what separated good from bad players.
That and auto - surround . They are making micro way to easy . I like BW mostly because i can micro well enough so that i can beat overall better players then myself because i have better micro then them . Ling runbys and small rushes will be a waste to do , because of a imba workers surrounding my forces .
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On September 08 2009 00:41 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 00:28 Hot_Bid wrote: obviously 1-hatch hydra dies to someone knowing its coming, its that they don't know its coming, its a virtual coinflip. i don't think i ever said its unbeatable, just that the Queen mechanic can put Zerg far ahead after early game.
i can't control the TL bandwagon having never played SC2 and crying QUEEN IMBA because my conclusion at the end is that Zerg early game is vastly superior than T and P because of the Queen being so much better than obelisk and mule. That said, I wasn't sure they should nerf it because we weren't sure how the mid and late game balance worked out. Hot_Bid I just want to say that your article was very well done and you should continue to do them. Even if people will overreact. ya i agree...gives them something to do, anyway.
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On September 08 2009 01:07 Hot_Bid wrote: thanks, i won't be playing the beta though, i have school
to add to that, i think they can re-balance the queen if they make worker scouting ai better (ie workers don't auto die to 2 lings)
one of the biggest skills in BW was being able to keep your scout alive / killing the opposing scout, and by removing that blizzard is essentially removing a huge part of what separated good from bad players. Is there anyway at all to keep your worker alive once the lings have found it? Or is the movement AI just that much improved.
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Sanya12364 Posts
One of the big points Hot Bid made was that the threat of the early rush that forces P's or T's to overcommit to defenses early on while Zergs have the option to power drone and gain a huge economic lead. You wouldn't suicide the lines against such a defense in BW so why do it SC II? Keep them around in front of the P base and use map control to expand two or three times and power. The P will have no idea what is coming, and the P can't attack because its military advantage is momentary. Once the P moves out the Z will catch up to him militarily and annihilate him.
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On September 08 2009 01:48 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 01:07 Hot_Bid wrote: thanks, i won't be playing the beta though, i have school
to add to that, i think they can re-balance the queen if they make worker scouting ai better (ie workers don't auto die to 2 lings)
one of the biggest skills in BW was being able to keep your scout alive / killing the opposing scout, and by removing that blizzard is essentially removing a huge part of what separated good from bad players. Is there anyway at all to keep your worker alive once the lings have found it? Or is the movement AI just that much improved.
I think you can't keep your worker alive on the Creep once the lings have found it. I believe the Workers are all faster than non speed upgraded Tier 1 units Off the creep.
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I think the problem here, if one actually exists, is larger than the queen. If one really cant scout anymore due to improved pathing, that eliminates a huge element of BW, leading to problems like the larva inject issue. However, nerfing that ability is just a band-aid on a larger problem.
In order for the game to feel like BW again, Blizzard should just fix scouting somehow.
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I think scouting is fine, but scouting the Zerg means that you have to leave the Creep as soon as the Zerglings pop out... you can still scout the Natural to watch for FE.
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are u able to play in any type of beta with your keys? or did they say when u could use them?
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I was lucky enough to play an SC2 developer at the end of Blizzcon, who was Protoss. That seemed like exactly the strategy he used, while I went 1 hatch hydra. I nearly broke his front, but kept a nice contain on him (stopped his xpo) while I went for a 2nd hatch/2nd queen. Once that was up and running I just steamrolled him. He tried some cutesy air harass on main while I was pushing front but a few corrupters handled that. Either way can't wait for beta!
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There are quite a few holes in this. If the toss holes up the zerg goes drones. You're also forgetting that the toss holing up will give the zerg free reign on the map to get zerglings to the observation points or elsewhere. We're not talking about protecting against a 6 ling rush, we're talking about a massive economic advantage of having all those larvae.
I wish I could have played Karune with the queen hatch because the people I saw playing against him were way too slow with it, manually clicking the spawn larvae icon or just forgetting about it entirely - more importantly they didn't press their attacks during the right time window.
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i don't think it's that big of a deal if you have to sacrifice your worker to scout a zerg. the same will probably be true of protoss and terran anyway...and if not...oh well... as it is...in warcraft 3 people will pick particular heroes because they know that they will always get the worker kill. an example is a mountain king...he can storm bolt so kill a worker for 75 mana. but, that does incur a cost. a better example is an agility hero. like the blademaster or a demon hunter. if your opponent went one of those heroes, you can bet there's no way your worker is getting away. all he has to do is right click on your worker. he's going to die. in fact it's really hard to scouts orcs as undead because of this. i think blizzard is probably aware that the workers will have to be sacrificed when scouting the zerg. i think that's ok. it totally fits the zerg race.
On September 07 2009 23:44 hacpee wrote: From what I understand, the power of the 1 hatch hydra strat is the fact that you can be pumping drones while protoss pumps lots and they won't know you're droning up until its too late(when you have a overwhelming advantage). You see exactly what protoss is doing with your overloard and can build just enough units to defend an attack while protoss has no idea what you're doing. this kindof reminds me of undead vs orc where the blademaster dominates the early game and techs to raiders and wind riders and you don't know what he's going until it's too late. at any rate... i think you're exaggerating. the warcraft 3 scenario was awfully imbalanced compared to what it looks like sc2 is.
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Sweden33719 Posts
The problem is they will be killed before they can see anything. Lings kill the first probe, then block the ramp (or block outside the protoss base to stop any new probes from going out) and now you are in the dark until you have air units.
Unlike in WC3, SC maps have ramps. Even if the SC2 ramps are bigger, 6 lings will not have a problem blocking them I am more or less certain.
And once a zerg has speed for his lings, probes have no chance at all when it comes to scouting.
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On September 08 2009 04:32 FrozenArbiter wrote: The problem is they will be killed before they can see anything. Lings kill the first probe, then block the ramp (or block outside the protoss base to stop any new probes from going out) and now you are in the dark until you have air units. yeah...good point there. but with the improved pathfinding zealots should always dominate zerglings on things like ramps so this shouldn't be a big problem.
yeah any kind of blocking i'm pretty sure will favor the protoss rather than the zerg, at least in relation to zergling vs zealot
edit: well, if upramp zealots cannot see attacking/blocking zerglings that would be a problem...but i think melee range is always visible is it not? i think uphill no sight only applies to ranged units...or am i wrong about this?
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I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal?
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Ever tried some BBS or 8 Rax like tactics in TvZ? In order to benefit from the temporary weakness of the Zerg player before he can use his larvae injects to get a ton of Lings. I know that surrounding became a lot easier but with a good SCV Micro it should be still possible to block Drones and Lings.
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On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal? you're right. the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field...
in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race...but when it came to zvp...i was much better with protoss...and the primary reason is that the protoss race is better. but sc2 might be more balanced...we can hope. i'm pretty sure the new macro changes are perfect. the protoss get just an extra little oomph to mining effeciency...and terrans get a jolt at an opportune moment...it's their styles, and i think terran scvs always had too much of an edge with that 50 percent extra hp with in sc2 with mules not being quite as awesome as the protoss or zerg macro mechanics...it'll be fair.
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Calgary25938 Posts
The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings.
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On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. no, he's not walling in sc style. it's improved sc2 walling, and it'll be fine...read the other thread that explained it. wait a second, that was this thread.
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I am by no means an expert or even remotely close to that. But I'm going to just brainstorm anyways.
If the problem is that the T or P can't scout what the Z is doing with their larvae, shouldn't the goal be to control what the Z can make? By that I mean playing aggressive. I understand that it might be difficult as P since you can't take down their ovie with zealots and if you go 2gate the Z will scout it and easily defend. But, could it be viable for T to add a barracks or two after chasing away their scouting ovie and try to go for early pressure to prevent Z from gaining to much of an economical advantage?
Chances are I'm completely wrong but hey, just throwing it out there.
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On September 08 2009 04:52 Belano wrote: I am by no means an expert or even remotely close to that. But I'm going to just brainstorm anyways.
If the problem is that the T or P can't scout what the Z is doing with their larvae, shouldn't the goal be to control what the Z can make? By that I mean playing aggressive. I understand that it might be difficult as P since you can't take down their ovie with zealots and if you go 2gate the Z will scout it and easily defend. But, could it be viable for T to add a barracks or two after chasing away their scouting ovie and try to go for early pressure to prevent Z from gaining to much of an economical advantage?
Chances are I'm completely wrong but hey, just throwing it out there.
Good luck breaking his Spine Crawlers. He knows you'll do early pressure via ovie, and can still out eco you while fending off your attacks. At that point unless you suicide units you don't know if hes massing up lings or powering up his eco. The imba is the fact you'll always be in the dark, and he'll always be able to counter your early game maneuvers.
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lol so much virtual starcraft. Love it :p
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On September 07 2009 19:51 ViruX wrote: Sounds like rampless maps or maps with wide chokes are not longer an option in SC2 which map be a bit limiting for mapmakers
Blizzard might be fine with some match ups forcing maps to be basic during the first expansion. It gives them the opportunity to improve the game depth in the expansions.
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Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances?
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On September 08 2009 04:57 decemberscalm wrote: Good luck breaking his Spine Crawlers. He knows you'll do early pressure via ovie, and can still out eco you while fending off your attacks. At that point unless you suicide units you don't know if hes massing up lings or powering up his eco. The imba is the fact you'll always be in the dark, and he'll always be able to counter your early game maneuvers. If you build up your Rax already at 9/10 or 8/10 he won't be able to scout your rush with the ovie before your first marines are out. In most cases he will be first aware of your tactic when your marines and SCVs are already on their way to his base. If he's not playing a very early Pool himself he won't have his Zerglings and Queen out when your Marines arrive. I don't know how fast the Spine Crawler needs to be build but I believe with a good micro you can take it out of the game before it can really prevent the Zerg's Base from damage. So his only chance will be take out the Marines by surrounding them with Drones and Zerglings what can be prevented with SCV blocking. So his only possibilities are insane scouting, awsome Drone micro or playing a very risky early pool tactic himself. I know this is pretty much Theorycraft but I think there's not that that much difference in SC2 early game compared to BW. So disturbing him before he can use his larvae injecting could work.
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Yeah, ok. As others suggested, Protoss would still be behind in that build. Not to mention, it is only one viable build. Rock, Paper, Scissors anyone? Not like we didn't know proper building placement goes along way, but the fact of the matter is the UI and AI of the units still makes things a cakewalk for the most part. Then again, it could also be counter productive as well, because your units will always try to surround when you rather them do things differently, i.e. spread out.
Blizzard might as well hotkeys for different strategic formations while they're at it because the grouping thing is preposterous.
Just another reason why other RTS developers screwed the genre over with user friendly UIs.
Blizzard was onto something before the rest of them. T_T
I, myself would have made minor tweaks to the old one.
On September 08 2009 05:13 Mastermind wrote: Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances?
Probably because they're Gaming Developers and not professional RTS players. It would be helpful to have more players like Pillars around for one.
I think Blizzard is trying to be too innovative with this one and they're overlooking the small things.
This game is trying to live up to an impossible bill. :/ Yes, I'm a huge skeptic. I just cannot wait until the real fun starts. The Beta will have more than enough good players participating to fix things. I'm sure it will go on for several months.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:45 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. no, he's not walling in sc style. it's improved sc2 walling, and it'll be fine...read the other thread that explained it. wait a second, that was this thread. Ugh, it's exactly like in SC.
In SC, you 2 gate, block your ramp with 2 zealots.
In SC2, because the ramps are so much bigger, you 2 gate, but since the buildings are tight, you can block with a zealot there (however you have to get more than 1 zealot because otherwise he can break it so it's identical to SC).
Difference is, in SC1 if you 9 pool you hurt your eco to the point where protoss can just eat the loss in scouting and play it safe. In SC2 you have the queen so you don't get hurt in the same way.
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Good way of putting it FA. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I understand they want faster games with the macro + mule/warp-in oberlisk/larva injection mechanics, but hell. It's going to take a shitload of time to balance.
It took them years to get SC:BW to a good place. Ugh
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On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read this. Yeah make a zealot wall so you can... ummm... block the first six lings? I never even considered doing a fast rush with a queen build. Reading the larva injection thread, I thought of it more like 3 hatch before pool - except now you already have a pool.
I think Karune/David Kim are too used to playing people who aren't up to par with them if this is their actual response.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal? you're right. the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field... in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race...but when it came to zvp...i was much better with protoss...and the primary reason is that the protoss race is better. but sc2 might be more balanced...we can hope. i'm pretty sure the new macro changes are perfect. the protoss get just an extra little oomph to mining effeciency...and terrans get a jolt at an opportune moment...it's their styles, and i think terran scvs always had too much of an edge with that 50 percent extra hp with in sc2 with mules not being quite as awesome as the protoss or zerg macro mechanics...it'll be fair. Protoss is definitely not better than zerg (in SC1). At low levels protoss is far easier though, because your units have a ton of HP, but throughout the last... 8 or so years the Z>P>T>Z argument has held true.
I'd still say the game is balanced, because the differences are *soooooo* small, but statistically it's true.
I'm more or less certain melee units will always be able to attack other units standing on a ramp, but that's not part of the problem - the zerg will see everything you do until you get stalkers (overlord in your base), while you wont be able to keep your probe alive due to how fast the lings are.
So now yes, you could send your zealots out to try to gain some intel that way - but the zerg will know, he'll be able to react precisely to what you are doing, you won't catch him unprepared.
I would say that the perhaps most important skill in PvZ, is the ability to keep your scouting worker alive. Whenever it dies too soon, you will feel terrible, because that means you are flipping a coin when deciding how you want to proceed - and that's not good. Especially when the zerg can still scout you and change his mind, making your coinflip even worse.
On September 08 2009 05:23 bEsT[Alive] wrote: Good way of putting it FA. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I understand they want faster games with the macro + mule/warp-in oberlisk/larva injection mechanics, but hell. It's going to take a shitload of time to balance.
It took them years to get SC:BW to a good place. Ugh The path towards balance will be fun tho I've long rued the fact that I never really paid attention to WC3 during the period where Ancient of War rushing was super imbalanced (basically, Night Elf buildings can walk and attack when uprooted, in one patch they were faaaaaar too strong so everyone just built them and attacked as far as I understand it :D).
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I'll try to spread some cheer: "Remember guys! Pool used to be 150 minerals!" :p
That is to say, Blizzard is slow out of the gate and it will be a good sprint to the finish.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:52 Belano wrote: I am by no means an expert or even remotely close to that. But I'm going to just brainstorm anyways.
If the problem is that the T or P can't scout what the Z is doing with their larvae, shouldn't the goal be to control what the Z can make? By that I mean playing aggressive. I understand that it might be difficult as P since you can't take down their ovie with zealots and if you go 2gate the Z will scout it and easily defend. But, could it be viable for T to add a barracks or two after chasing away their scouting ovie and try to go for early pressure to prevent Z from gaining to much of an economical advantage?
Chances are I'm completely wrong but hey, just throwing it out there.
Look, it's really simple. If you rush, Zerg can outproduce you. If you don't, Zerg can outworker you. If you do some hybrid in between, Zerg can move from Drones to units seemlessly. The queen's benefit applies to both economy and unit production. That doesn't happen for the other races.
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"Blizzard might as well hotkeys for different strategic formations while they're at it because the grouping thing is preposterous. "
that would be a good idea.
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On September 08 2009 05:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote: I'll try to spread some cheer: "Remember guys! Pool used to be 150 minerals!" :p
That is to say, Blizzard is slow out of the gate and it will be a good sprint to the finish.
Yeah I gotta agree with you on this one. And dont forget we will be getting at least two expansions most probably dramaticly changing race balances as the comes out.
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"Protoss is definitely not better than zerg (in SC1). At low levels protoss is far easier though, because your units have a ton of HP, but throughout the last... 8 or so years the Z>P>T>Z argument has held true." i was referring to the early game only. am i still wrong? obviously games usually last past the early but sometimes not. at any rate if one race or the other fares badly enough in the early game then later on it'll be a big challenge. i think protoss had the aggressor's advantage vs zerg in sc. zerg would just try to take over the map, but if protoss had a good enough early game, that'll never happen.
i think the pro scene of starcraft maybe has had a lack of good protoss players, and i think it's because a lot of the pro starcraft maps that have been played on, if not all of them...have been emphasizing macro a lot. that's all people care about when playing protoss, zerg or terran sometimes i think. but, protoss becomes stronger than zerg when you micro properly...unless you hit late game and zerg swarms you before you can rape overlords. the thing is that i think because of the huge popularity of macro over micro styled maps...and of course latency being a problem with micro also...not to mention the fastest speed...micro is less important. that's why protoss is weaker than zerg, like you said.
but in sc2, micro will be a lot more important. that's why something like a boost to the zerg's macro will be ok. because protoss are still going to be really strong if you micro them properly. and even lower leveled players like me will have a better time at macroing properly. that's why when i'll go up against zerg player my level he'll actually stand a chance. because he's got this new mechanic that helps his macro.
all my theorycrafting aside though...didn't Karune say he loses to David Kim? i guess unless we see them fight eachother we still might be arguing over the matter alot.
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On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal?
WTF are you smoking? 9 pool speedlings owns 2gate lots.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Early game I would agree with you, yep. My bad if I misunderstood.
About the maps, I sooooooort of disagree, because some of the most imbalanced PvZ maps of all time (like Bifrost) were not macro maps at all, while some of the most imbalanced in P's favour (like Guillotine or Paradox) were macro maps.
There's always been slightly less toss pros, but I think that also has to do with the fact that they've long been perceived as slightly weaker (until recently anyway - back in the day I used to argue hardcore with people who said zerg was too strong, now it's almost reversed lol).
I think it's, in the end, all up to the maps (and expansions, patches..) whether macro or micro will be more important for SC2 ~~
On September 08 2009 06:19 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal? WTF are you smoking? 9 pool speedlings owns 2gate lots. Ehhh, I think P ends up ahead as long as he secures his ramp. Although I guess it depends on definition, you can't really move out with your 2 gate zealots until you reach a high number of zealots, and you still rsik being countered so...
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In other words, you are only looking out for yourself. Thanks. You should have left out the last paragraph.
Any good player will surely take this early advantage. Hell, a shitty ass Z player has all the tools now to take on a decent P player. PvZ has always been tricky with getting the proper timings and micro.
In SC, Protoss has a few viable builds against Zerg, i.e. two gate push, FE. Normally we see the latter. P players tend to play more conservative/passive as you described, but you continue to miss an important element.
SCOUTING. The Protoss always had limited methods of scouting against Z. Z always had the early advantage. It's up to keeping your initial probe alive and in some cases that doesn't even work, so you have to get a Corsair -__-;;
What does this mean? P players have one less out. We need to see more viable builds and soft counters in SC2 to increase its longevity.
Give me a freaking break man.
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On September 08 2009 05:13 Mastermind wrote: Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances?
I'd agree if people were talking about mid/late game imbalances but there isn't even many possibilities in the early game so its immediately pretty obvious if something is overpowered or not.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 08 2009 06:42 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 05:13 Mastermind wrote: Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances? I'd agree if people were talking about mid/late game imbalances but there isn't even many possibilities in the early game so its immediately pretty obvious if something is overpowered or not. I think it's important to keep in mind, and Hot_bid stressed this part himself several times, that nobody is saying that anything is DEFINITELY imbalanced.
In his experience, it feels very, very strong but he still says he's not sure if it should be nerfed, because he's not sure how late game plays out.
Nobody is saying "this is how it is", it's more like "this is how it appears to be" - until the Beta is out we can't really do better than that.
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On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings.
Chill, maybe I missed getting this written down as clearly as I wanted, but the zerg cannot expand vs a 2-gate build, because if you are spending all those larva on workers/an expand, you're going to get hit by a very strong zealot rush.
The section where I talked about the option of breaking the wall was to show what happens if you try. If you don't try either you reinforce your troops at his ramp, or he kills them easily and comes charging towards your base with 5 zealots, which, if you've expanded will easily kill enough workers/your nat hatch before dieing to your scrambled lings.
Maybe it was just how it felt in this build, but a 1-base zerg felt very mineral starved, it's not like BW where you will automatically get to 300 for a hatch, unable to spend it all off of the first one
The one counter to this build I posted was zerg expanding all over the map, but without creep around their morphing in new hatch, it's easily scouted and killed.
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I want to play sc2 so much xD!
Got a question here:
Does it make any sense to build more than 30 drones for 1 base?
If not,cant the t/p assume a push when zerg is not expanding?
I dont know how viable fast teching to t2/3 on 1 base is, but i guess by the time the push comes out p/t would have taken their nat already.
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I think that ZvT and ZvP will fix itself when the game comes out. ZvZ, however, will be just like in SC1. Ling/muta no real signs of "macro"
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Sweden33719 Posts
Shiladie, could you give an estimate of how many lings you'd need to protect vs 5 zealots? It doesn't sound like you'd need that many, especially if you have speed (not to mention that if you have speed, you can just run-around and counter his main).
Also, how will protoss knew you expanded if you have lings blocking his scout probe? In SC you aren't gonna get a ling past speedlings, I'm assuming this is still the case since the pathing has improved?
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On September 08 2009 08:43 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. Chill, maybe I missed getting this written down as clearly as I wanted, but the zerg cannot expand vs a 2-gate build, because if you are spending all those larva on workers/an expand, you're going to get hit by a very strong zealot rush. The section where I talked about the option of breaking the wall was to show what happens if you try. If you don't try either you reinforce your troops at his ramp, or he kills them easily and comes charging towards your base with 5 zealots, which, if you've expanded will easily kill enough workers/your nat hatch before dieing to your scrambled lings. Maybe it was just how it felt in this build, but a 1-base zerg felt very mineral starved, it's not like BW where you will automatically get to 300 for a hatch, unable to spend it all off of the first one The one counter to this build I posted was zerg expanding all over the map, but without creep around their morphing in new hatch, it's easily scouted and killed.
The problem here is this:
1. Early couple lings + Q kill his scout 2. Overload is in toss base/at his ramp 3. Some lings in front of his nat to contain + deny other scout
When he moves out, you can focus on military production or build it concurrently while pumping drones because you knwo EXACTLY how many zealots he has. As zerg:
1. You know EXACTLY when he moves out. 2. You know how many zealots he has.
A competent player will EASILY counter this.
I'm not quite sure why you'd do an early pool (10p vs 13). When the pool is up not all of the first 3 larva or any have to go towards lings either. All of the queen's larva don't have to go towards ALL military or ALL drones. The fact that it's variable makes it very difficult for the toss player.
I am not quite getting why you are saying its mineral starved when you can pump extra drones if you need to. The extra 12 larva (that Nevuk calculated from the mainpage thread) by the time the 2nd hatch would be up is MORE than enough to get enough extra drones PLUS military you need to defend a 2gate.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 08 2009 09:53 FrozenArbiter wrote: Shiladie, could you give an estimate of how many lings you'd need to protect vs 5 zealots? It doesn't sound like you'd need that many, especially if you have speed (not to mention that if you have speed, you can just run-around and counter his main).
Also, how will protoss knew you expanded if you have lings blocking his scout probe? In SC you aren't gonna get a ling past speedlings, I'm assuming this is still the case since the pathing has improved? The ratio is EXACTLY 3:1, just like in brood war. You definitely can expand against 2 gate, since you can support 7 larvae of lings easily.
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On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings.
thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty.
just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech.
Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play
how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran
Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 08 2009 10:27 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty. just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech. Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect. Dealing with drops is a lot easier for Z in ZvT because hydras also beat marines way better than in BW. Protoss can do cute Collossus drops that rape Zerg pretty hard, if it gets to that point.
I never got / saw a nomad in all the games I played or watched.
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Zergs are obviously need their uberlisk back. Uberling or imbaling are the only fair builds :D
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On September 08 2009 10:32 n3meSis wrote: Zergs are obviously need their uberlisk back. Uberling or imbaling are the only fair builds :D Toss gets thier mothership, Terran gets thier Thor? We deserve our Uberlisk XD
I'm all for balancing the Queen so that Zerg tier 1 units are weak per mineral cost compared to Toss and Terran so they are a much more swarmy race. Mabye put the Queen with only a melee attack that hits air (its really tall <.<) or a shorter ranged attack so it can't stop workers. As for Zerglings denying scouts, if its a real problem than they should just change the way lings track them down.
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On September 08 2009 06:19 FrozenArbiter wrote: About the maps, I sooooooort of disagree, because some of the most imbalanced PvZ maps of all time (like Bifrost) were not macro maps at all, while some of the most imbalanced in P's favour (like Guillotine or Paradox) were macro maps.
paradox was a money map, not a macro map, there's a difference. it was also quite good, but...it was also more or less an island map... technically it was a duel map(like most of the 2 player blizzard maps)...but in sc with broodwar and corsairs p>z on islands...
Bifrost...I agree that it's not a macro map, but I don't think that's the issue. In this case, it's rather like the paradox map where...the entrance hurts one race. in paradox there was only entrance by sky...but in bifrost there are two entrances. and one of them is very windy. because of that the zerg are able to attack from a lot of different directions...that's what gave them an advantage over the protoss. Yes, it was a micro map, but in this case the entrances were key to zerg's victory. it was not only an issue at the main base but many expansions were difficult to protect with the many entrances everywhere. and everyone knows zerg surrounding protoss is not good for the protoss. they need a defensive line of some sort going to be able to slay the zerg little by little instead of trying to do it all at once.
as for Guillotine...I think remember that one well enough. but i didn't play on it because i thought it was a really imbalanced map... i admit i didn't watch much games on it, but from what i could tell, because of the huge numbers of walls... the ground units with the highest range had the hugest advantage. so terrans with their siege tanks were the strongest, followed by protoss with their dragoons...and zerg were dead last with their hydralisks.
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On September 08 2009 10:32 n3meSis wrote: Zergs are obviously need their uberlisk back. Uberling or imbaling are the only fair builds :D they made uberlisk just to show you that it's possible to create body parts on a unit that need to be destroyed...pretty sure that's what that was about. it's so like you can do stuff like contra or ff7 attack a different target on the same enemy. like, head, arm, other arm, and/or whatever.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Actually Protoss beat terran really badly on that map, although I don't know if the same would happen today...
Protoss favoured maps tend to be kinda boring I think
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Nice writeup.
I had no idea you got a key for beating karune or whoever...ugg I was so pumped to try (like at last PAX).
I asked a Blizz employee at the kiosk where they were hanging out if they were doing anything like that and he frowned at me and said "phh, NO".
Screw that guy. I was even wearing my WeMade jersey
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Can't the zerg player attack the gateways and if toss tries to use zealot to kill lings, just surround and pick off the lot.
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On September 08 2009 10:31 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 10:27 StorrZerg wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty. just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech. Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect. Dealing with drops is a lot easier for Z in ZvT because hydras also beat marines way better than in BW. Protoss can do cute Collossus drops that rape Zerg pretty hard, if it gets to that point. I never got / saw a nomad in all the games I played or watched.
can't toss use the flying pylon to just "recall" their entire army into a zerg main?
also really no one using the nomad? even though i hate vessels it was such a critical unit in tvz and very important tvp vs arbs
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On September 08 2009 12:25 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 10:31 Chill wrote:On September 08 2009 10:27 StorrZerg wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. thats what i was thinking, why the hell would you go forward and attempt to break it if he walls off nice and pretty. just ling speed deny scouting expand and tech. Besides this "imbalance" with 1 hatch play how about mid and late game? how do zergs deal with drops from toss/terran Or how about Key flying caster units (nomad) i mean its essential that you learn how to clone and use scourge to snipe vessels in BW, or snipe arbs obs ect. Dealing with drops is a lot easier for Z in ZvT because hydras also beat marines way better than in BW. Protoss can do cute Collossus drops that rape Zerg pretty hard, if it gets to that point. I never got / saw a nomad in all the games I played or watched. can't toss use the flying pylon to just "recall" their entire army into a zerg main? also really no one using the nomad? even though i hate vessels it was such a critical unit in tvz and very important tvp vs arbs
Warp-In only works on units you are making. You cant recall units you have already made.
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Ooo ok. but still a production round from 8+ gates is still a lot of units.
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On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal? you're right. the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field... in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race...but when it came to zvp...i was much better with protoss...and the primary reason is that the protoss race is better. but sc2 might be more balanced...we can hope. i'm pretty sure the new macro changes are perfect. the protoss get just an extra little oomph to mining effeciency...and terrans get a jolt at an opportune moment...it's their styles, and i think terran scvs always had too much of an edge with that 50 percent extra hp with in sc2 with mules not being quite as awesome as the protoss or zerg macro mechanics...it'll be fair. Your understanding of BW is not only really really bad, but it's terribly unfounded. Because you're better at PvZ than ZvP, you say that P is a stronger race?
Please... -____-;;
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On September 08 2009 01:07 Hot_Bid wrote: thanks, i won't be playing the beta though, i have school
to add to that, i think they can re-balance the queen if they make worker scouting ai better (ie workers don't auto die to 2 lings)
one of the biggest skills in BW was being able to keep your scout alive / killing the opposing scout, and by removing that blizzard is essentially removing a huge part of what separated good from bad players. eh , big surprise, big surprise...=/ ( to sc2 skill gap being what is it is )
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On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal? you're right. the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field... in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race...but when it came to zvp...i was much better with protoss...and the primary reason is that the protoss race is better. but sc2 might be more balanced...we can hope. i'm pretty sure the new macro changes are perfect. the protoss get just an extra little oomph to mining effeciency...and terrans get a jolt at an opportune moment...it's their styles, and i think terran scvs always had too much of an edge with that 50 percent extra hp with in sc2 with mules not being quite as awesome as the protoss or zerg macro mechanics...it'll be fair.
PvZ used to be the most imba matchup in favor of z until a guy with the id bisu came and showed how it can be balanced by playing one of the best zergs of the time.
PvZ is still one of the hardest matchups to play with only bisu excelling at the match up and jangbi/stork coming in tied for 2nd in the matchup.
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I'm really interested in hearing about what the actual/solid/tested Terran counters will be. I'm a Terran player myself. The other match ups seem "all right" for now.
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On September 07 2009 19:01 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 18:54 FortuneSyn wrote: Nice read! Do you have an idea of the highest iccup rank that lost to karune? Also, Karune mentioned how Blizzard has a weekly Thursday "Game Night" where a large portion of the SC2 team + others gets together in the theater for a series of matches where different people practice shoutcasting the matches. It also is where they see the more creative BOs come out for the current build, as the different employees want to win on-stage, practicing and researching the current version for what will work.
Those bastards. They are just having a great old time aren't they...
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ok for the mineral u have more mineral(cuz u saturate it more fast) but for the gas? even if u have 1000 larva the max number of workers for the saturation of it is 3... and with terran u can make a a FE + a wall in the second choke(if the map have it),bunker+rax and then make fast rauders and go to the zerg
and it's not even important for me if u do a fe or rush, i always go for fe+ 2°choke wall+workers behind, and u can't destroy it with lings...
i don't think is unbalanced at all...
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On September 08 2009 10:23 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 08:43 Shiladie wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. Chill, maybe I missed getting this written down as clearly as I wanted, but the zerg cannot expand vs a 2-gate build, because if you are spending all those larva on workers/an expand, you're going to get hit by a very strong zealot rush. The section where I talked about the option of breaking the wall was to show what happens if you try. If you don't try either you reinforce your troops at his ramp, or he kills them easily and comes charging towards your base with 5 zealots, which, if you've expanded will easily kill enough workers/your nat hatch before dieing to your scrambled lings. Maybe it was just how it felt in this build, but a 1-base zerg felt very mineral starved, it's not like BW where you will automatically get to 300 for a hatch, unable to spend it all off of the first one The one counter to this build I posted was zerg expanding all over the map, but without creep around their morphing in new hatch, it's easily scouted and killed. The problem here is this: 1. Early couple lings + Q kill his scout 2. Overload is in toss base/at his ramp 3. Some lings in front of his nat to contain + deny other scout When he moves out, you can focus on military production or build it concurrently while pumping drones because you knwo EXACTLY how many zealots he has. As zerg: 1. You know EXACTLY when he moves out. 2. You know how many zealots he has. A competent player will EASILY counter this. I'm not quite sure why you'd do an early pool (10p vs 13). When the pool is up not all of the first 3 larva or any have to go towards lings either. All of the queen's larva don't have to go towards ALL military or ALL drones. The fact that it's variable makes it very difficult for the toss player. I am not quite getting why you are saying its mineral starved when you can pump extra drones if you need to. The extra 12 larva (that Nevuk calculated from the mainpage thread) by the time the 2nd hatch would be up is MORE than enough to get enough extra drones PLUS military you need to defend a 2gate.
Hes saying it because you always have the larvae to spend minerals on and there's no "free" minerals that you cant spend and can make a 2nd hatch with. I think that's what he had in mind. Also, drones are too good, but if you have too much its not. its like, if you have 9 mineral paths, 9 drones will mine x9, 16 drones will mine x14, 20 drones will mine x16 etc.
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exactly there is a saturation limit where, even if u have 50 drone u can't mine more minerals, just because u have more drone...
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Sanya12364 Posts
If you're going to drone up, why stay at a single base? Get that second hatchery down.
The Queen doesn't prohibit an expansion nor does it compensate for one. The Queen takes the place of the second hatchery when the primary reason for building it is for increasing larva count. Later the Queen represents the third or fourth hatchery once the expansion is established.
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yeah, but if u expand, and u must expand for have advantage over u enemy, mean that also the opponent will expand...cuz he know that u have to expand to have a real advantage; i'm sure u can't win 1 base vs 1 base...and also u can't deny the t and p FE
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ok, i just wanted to say...the announcement for blizzard that sc2 would be at pax happened on the first, right? and yet looking at the pax website they were already out of tickets on the 31st. and the annoying thing is that this is where i live! hah...i just noticed all that. that's rather weird. i would've loved to get to play the game on friday. also, apparently pax is short for penny arcade expo. i guess i should figure out where that is if it's nearby...
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Good write-up / follow to Hot_bid's post. I guess two questions remain in my mind:
1. is scouting imbalanced relative to bw? 2. if the queen + injection = equivalent of 2.5 hatch with full zerg production flexibility, is the cost of the queen WAY low?
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 08 2009 21:33 Amph wrote: yeah, but if u expand, and u must expand for have advantage over u enemy, mean that also the opponent will expand...cuz he know that u have to expand to have a real advantage; i'm sure u can't win 1 base vs 1 base...and also u can't deny the t and p FE
How does Zerg not have the advantage? Z's will build six lings keep them outside the natural to force P's and T's to build defense. Then they will out drone P's and T's and won't have to spend any money on production buildings. Meanwhile P's and T's still has to keep their military up because who knows when the Z will suddenly switch to military and knock down the door with 40 hydras.
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On September 08 2009 20:55 Amph wrote: exactly there is a saturation limit where, even if u have 50 drone u can't mine more minerals, just because u have more drone...
And you reach this saturation way faster then either T or P because you are producing quad speed larva.
And then your larva production doesn't slow down, so you can use your superfast saturation to produce an army that the T or P simply can't match. Honestly, when you are building your queen, what is the T building? First or second rax?
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 08 2009 20:41 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 10:23 eshlow wrote:On September 08 2009 08:43 Shiladie wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. Chill, maybe I missed getting this written down as clearly as I wanted, but the zerg cannot expand vs a 2-gate build, because if you are spending all those larva on workers/an expand, you're going to get hit by a very strong zealot rush. The section where I talked about the option of breaking the wall was to show what happens if you try. If you don't try either you reinforce your troops at his ramp, or he kills them easily and comes charging towards your base with 5 zealots, which, if you've expanded will easily kill enough workers/your nat hatch before dieing to your scrambled lings. Maybe it was just how it felt in this build, but a 1-base zerg felt very mineral starved, it's not like BW where you will automatically get to 300 for a hatch, unable to spend it all off of the first one The one counter to this build I posted was zerg expanding all over the map, but without creep around their morphing in new hatch, it's easily scouted and killed. The problem here is this: 1. Early couple lings + Q kill his scout 2. Overload is in toss base/at his ramp 3. Some lings in front of his nat to contain + deny other scout When he moves out, you can focus on military production or build it concurrently while pumping drones because you knwo EXACTLY how many zealots he has. As zerg: 1. You know EXACTLY when he moves out. 2. You know how many zealots he has. A competent player will EASILY counter this. I'm not quite sure why you'd do an early pool (10p vs 13). When the pool is up not all of the first 3 larva or any have to go towards lings either. All of the queen's larva don't have to go towards ALL military or ALL drones. The fact that it's variable makes it very difficult for the toss player. I am not quite getting why you are saying its mineral starved when you can pump extra drones if you need to. The extra 12 larva (that Nevuk calculated from the mainpage thread) by the time the 2nd hatch would be up is MORE than enough to get enough extra drones PLUS military you need to defend a 2gate. Hes saying it because you always have the larvae to spend minerals on and there's no "free" minerals that you cant spend and can make a 2nd hatch with. I think that's what he had in mind. Also, drones are too good, but if you have too much its not. its like, if you have 9 mineral paths, 9 drones will mine x9, 16 drones will mine x14, 20 drones will mine x16 etc. You definitely can get a second hatchery + queen.
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Hehe, to think that 2 hatches + 2 queens = 5 hatch production is scary.
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On September 08 2009 21:34 dcttr66 wrote: ok, i just wanted to say...the announcement for blizzard that sc2 would be at pax happened on the first, right? and yet looking at the pax website they were already out of tickets on the 31st. and the annoying thing is that this is where i live! hah...i just noticed all that. that's rather weird. i would've loved to get to play the game on friday. also, apparently pax is short for penny arcade expo. i guess i should figure out where that is if it's nearby... There were a thousand extra tickets available for sat/sun. You could have gone if you wanted
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Zurich15234 Posts
On September 08 2009 21:33 Amph wrote: a lot of "U"s Welcome to Teamliquid! Please note that here, unlike the rest of the internet, "U" is a letter, not a word.
Also please read the thread and the ongoing discussion or you will just repeat what has been said already.
Also, as you seem not to have played the game at all, don't tell people who know better what is possible or impossible.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 08 2009 21:33 Amph wrote: yeah, but if u expand, and u must expand for have advantage over u enemy, mean that also the opponent will expand...cuz he know that u have to expand to have a real advantage; i'm sure u can't win 1 base vs 1 base...and also u can't deny the t and p FE Everything in this post is wrong. You can't attack P because he is holding his ramp, as soon as he tries to expand he is going to get runover by zerglings. You can win 1 base vs 1 base and in fact that's the entire basis of the huge article written by Hot_Bid.
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The problems I don't think Blizz staff even consider are things like map control - yeah, someone can 'survive' an early rush by turtling but wow are there problems with that. Here's a list of issues with P and PvZ based on my own playing (14 games as P at blizzcon)
1) Now Protoss is forced to play like terran with a wall-in?
2) You have to build a second gateway, just because you might die if you don't? With 1, it's a given, but 2 and you're /really/ making the entirety of toss early game a necessarily uncreative and boring thing. This does not promote originality, not only in the early game but in the whole game as the starting BOs are so relevant to everything thereafter.
3) If you have to use workers to defend something, your economy is going to crap, and a skillful player (the likes of which Blizzard's entire staff does not have you can really damage their economy; if not by worker kills then by delaying their mining. So Blizzard is saying, okay guys, you can desperately defend this while suffering economically to do so.
4) The lack of scouting capability for anyone trapped in the necessary gameplay of turtling. Playing without scouting was for 1998 Bnet BGH games. For a real game, it's vital.
5) Zerg gets map control. Let me repeat, Zerg Gets Map Control. I don't think Blizz understands that decent players actually understand this concept and that getting map control so severely is likely to turn into a guaranteed win. Survival often means delaying in this game. It wouldn't be so bad, perhaps, if scouting was an option still, or if completely basic mechanics from SC1 like dropships still existed.
6) I don't think these guys understand Tempo, either
7) Psionic storm is worse. So clustered groups of hydras etc aren't exactly susceptable to it anymore unless the player wielding them is bad and/or the player with psi-storm is a magician. Psi-storm is a critical part in toss vs hydras (and lurks, who can probably survive a second storm now just by unburrowing and moving, since the casting delay) and now that isn't there.
8) DTs and HTs come from seperate buildings now, even though both were oft vital for a PvZ match. So just to get DTs you have to spend money on the seperate building for just that and since that's obviously not going to happen in priority over HTs, say goodbye to DTs helping to keep zerg bases and economies down. Oh, and don't forget the lack of dropships, making DTs and HTs even more useless at harassing economy.
9) Immortals are so bad. Look at how fast zerglings are. Why would the zerg ever let their lings get hit by that piece of crap? And when they have map control, you can't exactly just put it in their base and force them to deal with it.
Now, SC2 is a different game, yeah yeah, but it plays much the same aside for these mechanics like the queen altering things up dangerously. If you look at the changes to the races and then considered Z vs P or T in sc1, you'd understand that Z just got a huge boost with the lack of medics, DTs, sairs (no air buildings right after cybercore), reavers, and toss shuttles. And that they can control the map and stop scouting in at least the vs P match-up. Now, that would be glaringly obviously imbalanced for SC1, but this is SC2, so we can't be sure it's imba. But, it doesn't mean it can't be, and it definitely looks that way.
The staff for wc3 stopped patching that game a long time ago, and of course most anyone frlom sc1 and its patching are likely even more long gone than for wc3. Who the hell did Blizzard dig up to try and make this an esport? The gameplay has been dumbed down into some obvious (and poor) attempt to make the gameplay a bunch of turtling and mass unit fights. Hopefully players can fix this during the beta, and that the expansions will eventually vary things up enough.
I could complain about a lot more things in SC2 but I'll try to cut this off, I doubt many are going to read this anyhow on page 5 or 6 of a thread.
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On September 09 2009 02:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 21:33 Amph wrote: yeah, but if u expand, and u must expand for have advantage over u enemy, mean that also the opponent will expand...cuz he know that u have to expand to have a real advantage; i'm sure u can't win 1 base vs 1 base...and also u can't deny the t and p FE Everything in this post is wrong. You can't attack P because he is holding his ramp, as soon as he tries to expand he is going to get runover by zerglings. You can win 1 base vs 1 base and in fact that's the entire basis of the huge article written by Hot_Bid.
u can't win 1vs1 base if toss/terran does all the thing right and is not a braindead person...this cuz u saturate your base and then u haven't any advantage anymore(saturation of 9 mineral patch is 20-22 workers i think, so even if u have 50 worker u still get the exact same mineral of 20 workers...), i have calculate that when u saturate your mining the t/p player have at least 16 workes(20 are needed for saturation), so is impossible that u get a real advantage, not to mention the workers that u lose for buildings...and not to mention that idra require gas too, if we see the scenario that hot_bid describe... he write "20 idra vs a few rines", this is impossible man...by the time u have 20 idra i have at least a good amount of rauders and rine, this because there are gas limitation involving in one base
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 09 2009 02:24 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2009 02:05 Chill wrote:On September 08 2009 21:33 Amph wrote: yeah, but if u expand, and u must expand for have advantage over u enemy, mean that also the opponent will expand...cuz he know that u have to expand to have a real advantage; i'm sure u can't win 1 base vs 1 base...and also u can't deny the t and p FE Everything in this post is wrong. You can't attack P because he is holding his ramp, as soon as he tries to expand he is going to get runover by zerglings. You can win 1 base vs 1 base and in fact that's the entire basis of the huge article written by Hot_Bid. u can't win 1vs1 base if toss/terran does all the thing right and is not a braindead person Indeed if the other player plays perfectly you will not win. Brilliant!
this cuz u saturate your base and then u haven't any advantage anymore(saturation of 9 mineral patch is 20-22 workers i think, so even if u have 50 worker u still get the exact same mineral of 20 workers...) What are you talking about? The strength of Zerg is in flexibility and deception. If you invest into defending my hydralisks, and I didn't make them, you are behind. If I did, we are even. That's the point. On top of this, Zerg has perfect scouting via overlords, while Protoss has to guess. All these problems happen much, much earlier than worker saturation.
i have calculate that when u saturate your mining the t/p player have at least 16 workes(20 are needed for saturation), so is impossible that u get a real advantage, not to mention the workers that u lose for buildings Wow, that's fantastic. Mind telling me how you calculated that? Because I've literally been working on it for 2 days and I'm only at the ~2:00 mark with around 12 Drones mining. How did you just calculate that up?
and not to mention that idra require gas too, if we see the scenario that hot_bid describe... he write "20 idra vs a few rines", this is impossible man...by the time u have 20 idra i have at least a good amount of rauders and rine, this because there are gas limitation involving in one base Hydralisks require 50 gas to make the building, 150 gas for the upgrade. After that, 20 hydralisks cost 500 gas. Imagine how long it takes you to mine 500 gas in brood war - not that long. Further, you can't get gas as early because you don't have any many spare workers as Zerg.
Anyways, this entire discussion is ridiculous. The Zerg strength comes from the flexbility to make either a ton of Drones, a ton of units, or any ratio in between. No other race can do that, and it's a huge advantage for Zerg. People arguing that they can beat 1 base Zerg are completely missing the point.
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Lumi: The Phase Prism is also a shuttle.
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why u talk always about p, and not t? i think t with FE can compete vs the queen injection ability, u can't deny an fe , i can make a fast wall in the natural choke(if the map have it) with 1 bunker and 1 rax with scv provide repair and mining from 2 expo then i building marauder
p.s if u have 12 drone at 2 min i have also 12 scv, cuz u can't morph a queen before 10-12 workers...
so we have the same number of workers until the queen arrive(12vs12) and if u calculate that u lost some drones to morph building u get your saturation when i have at least 16 worker, easy...
On September 09 2009 02:49 Chill wrote: What are you talking about? The strength of Zerg is in flexibility and deception. If you invest into defending my hydralisks, and I didn't make them, you are behind. If I did, we are even. That's the point. On top of this, Zerg has perfect scouting via overlords, while Protoss has to guess. All these problems happen much, much earlier than worker saturation.
1 base vs 1 base u CANNOT WIN, it's impossible due to the saturation of the mineral, when u saturate your mineral u get an advantage(thanks to the queen) of 5-7 workers...then u have no advantage when i also reached the saturation, It would be like trying to produce from 8 rax with one base...so if i make a tough wall with depot and rax and u can't destroy even if u have a superior army...and then when i also reached the sturation, we become equeal
User was banned due to his inability to heed warnings, invest the time to accurately read the conversation in which he was participating, and type in a manner that easily conveys his message.
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On September 09 2009 03:32 Amph wrote:why u talk always about p, and not t? i think t with FE can compete vs the queen injection ability, u can't deny an fe , i can make a fast wall in the natural choke(if the map have it) with 1 bunker and 1 rax with scv provide repair and mining from 2 expo then i building marauder p.s if u have 12 drone at 2 min i have also 12 scv, cuz u can't morph a queen before 10-12 workers... so we have the same number of workers until the queen arrive(12vs12) and if u calculate that u lost some drones to morph building u get your saturation when i have at least 16 worker, easy... Show nested quote +On September 09 2009 02:49 Chill wrote: What are you talking about? The strength of Zerg is in flexibility and deception. If you invest into defending my hydralisks, and I didn't make them, you are behind. If I did, we are even. That's the point. On top of this, Zerg has perfect scouting via overlords, while Protoss has to guess. All these problems happen much, much earlier than worker saturation. 1 base vs 1 base u CANNOT WIN, it's impossible due to the saturation of the mineral, when u saturate your mineral u get an advantage(thanks to the queen) of 5-7 workers...then u have no advantage when i also reached the saturation, It would be like trying to produce from 8 rax with one base...so if i make a tough wall with depot and rax and u can't destroy even if u have a superior army...and then when i also reached the sturation, we become equeal In that case, the zerg can outmacro, since drone powering takes much less time. The overlord will tell whether the terran is committing resources to an FE or to a 'secret' (walled) timing attack. Now there might be a point if terran early/mid game is as strong as a superior-economy zerg early/mid game but that would completely lock the matchup in one direction.
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Calgary25938 Posts
Well, I guess you can respond when you are unbanned .
On September 09 2009 03:32 Amph wrote: why u talk always about p, and not t? Umm, I'm not doing it on purpose, it just came up in this discussion.
i think t with FE can compete vs the queen injection ability, u can't deny an fe , i can make a fast wall in the natural choke(if the map have it) with 1 bunker and 1 rax with scv provide repair and mining from 2 expo then i building marauder Let's imagine for a second that you are right, that there is a map that can be walled off with a barracks and bunker and that is solid against zerglings and you recover fast enough to defend hydralisks. I don't believe it, but let's assume. So the Zerg sees this, takes 2 more bases and adds a queen to each. You've just made your situation worse. You can't beat Zerg in a straightup "macro for 10 minutes and then fight" game. This is the situation where I went 1 Marine FE against Hot_Bid. He had 60 supply when I had 40. Unless an equally-suppled Zerg army is significantly weaker than the other races in SC2, expanding and macroing will put you further behind.
p.s if u have 12 drone at 2 min i have also 12 scv, cuz u can't morph a queen before 10-12 workers... This quote right here shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Even Brood War. For any non-Zerg race doing a "macro buildup", the limiting factor is time, since one worker needs to wait for the last one to finish. Zerg's limiting factor is larvae, which is related to time, but not directly. Zerg will have 12 drones before you have 12 SCVs. There is no way to deny this, since you get 50 minerals faster than 17 seconds (the build time of a worker). This isn't really a big point in SC2 balance, but it's a big point in showing you aren't making rational sense.
so we have the same number of workers until the queen arrive(12vs12) and if u calculate that u lost some drones to morph building u get your saturation when i have at least 16 worker, easy... That doesn't make sense, since I have 7/3's faster production of workers due to the queen. On top of this, my larvae allow me to make the initial workers more quickly. Also, it has been shown in BW that saturation occurs between 23 and 25 workers for a 9 mineral patch base, depending on the setup and race.
On September 09 2009 02:49 Chill wrote: What are you talking about? The strength of Zerg is in flexibility and deception. If you invest into defending my hydralisks, and I didn't make them, you are behind. If I did, we are even. That's the point. On top of this, Zerg has perfect scouting via overlords, while Protoss has to guess. All these problems happen much, much earlier than worker saturation.
1 base vs 1 base u CANNOT WIN, it's impossible due to the saturation of the mineral, when u saturate your mineral u get an advantage(thanks to the queen) of 5-7 workers...then u have no advantage when i also reached the saturation, It would be like trying to produce from 8 rax with one base...so if i make a tough wall with depot and rax and u can't destroy even if u have a superior army...and then when i also reached the sturation, we become equeal
I don't think you truly understand how long it takes to reach saturation. 25 workers + 6 on gas = 31 workers. How long does it take you to make 31 workers in SC2? Assuming you never miss one and subtracting the initial 6, that's t(S) = (31-6)*17 = 425. So 425 seconds or 7 minutes. That's a long time. So, sure, we are equal at the 7 minute mark, but you are playing with a handicap from when my queen spawns (~3 minutes) until 7 minutes. You're okay with that? Leads in economically-driven RTS games compound significantly after the beginning. This is why SC has boiled down to fast expanding with minimal defense, even to the point of pulling SCVs off gas when they aren't immediately necessary. And after all that, you're okay playing four of the first seven minutes behind?
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Woo for starcraft 2 being designed with a complete "Counter"'s in mind. 9pool doesnt immediately beat 14cc, but now, 6 lings into 1hatch hydra means its zerg versus two terran races. Map control might be important.
Dev says
no itz not op!11, u just hav 2 build 2 gatre, on a map with small ramp so 1 zealot can leik kill 3/6 lings. itz ez pz111. Seriously, 6 lings vs 1 zealot. So dumb. Worse than 1gate tech vs 3hatch ling and you forget to get gas.
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On September 09 2009 06:33 Phayze wrote: Woo for starcraft 2 being designed with a complete "Counter"'s in mind. 9pool doesnt immediately beat 14cc, but now, 6 lings into 1hatch hydra means its zerg versus two terran races. Map control might be important.
Dev says
no itz not op!11, u just hav 2 build 2 gatre, on a map with small ramp so 1 zealot can leik kill 3/6 lings. itz ez pz111. Seriously, 6 lings vs 1 zealot. So dumb. Worse than 1gate tech vs 3hatch ling and you forget to get gas.
Might I remind you SC1 has many many BO auto win/loss. I find people are putting SC1 on the proverbial pussy pedastool, and overlooking foundational SC1 knowledge.
We can't really speak on balance as everyone has only played on a map or two. Map factors into balance as much, or if not more than the other factors involved. Let's take a step back before you start calling things "dumb".
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Lumi a few of the things you said are out of date, psi storm was buffed, prism is a shuttle, immortals were never meant to counter zerglings, though I agree the map control situation would be alarming.
I think if this ends up being a problem they'll just reduce the cost of the nullifier (is it still 50/100 ?) It can take out overlords and is alround a great unit for putting the pressure on Z.
edit: would this really remove open-base maps completely ? Walls are nice but variety is also nice...
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its funny to read theorycrafting after theorycrafting... i prefer to belive in those who actually have played the game (or game to be).
what i understood from HB article was that Z can deny scout and force defence in P and T early game (much like in BW), but without loosing much macrowise (unlike in BW), scout for Z keeps the same thx to Ovies.
an from that its obvious that Z has won an advantage (possibly unfair), an advantage that even if Z cant capitalize early game will give them more an more advantage (eventually the win) over time.
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But starcraft did not have a direct counter to every build, The game isnt X beats y, and its definately not You MUST x for a chance to beat y. The dev telling us you have to 2gate and defend are forced to defend 6 zerglings with 1 zealot and you have to wall, plus have to kill 3 zerglings with probes and the 2 zealots coming after the fact is dumb.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 09 2009 07:34 Phayze wrote: But starcraft did not have a direct counter to every build, The game isnt X beats y, and its definately not You MUST x for a chance to beat y. The dev telling us you have to 2gate and defend are forced to defend 6 zerglings with 1 zealot and you have to wall, plus have to kill 3 zerglings with probes and the 2 zealots coming after the fact is dumb. Do you realize how many builds have evolved throughout StarCraft?
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On September 09 2009 08:04 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2009 07:34 Phayze wrote: But starcraft did not have a direct counter to every build, The game isnt X beats y, and its definately not You MUST x for a chance to beat y. The dev telling us you have to 2gate and defend are forced to defend 6 zerglings with 1 zealot and you have to wall, plus have to kill 3 zerglings with probes and the 2 zealots coming after the fact is dumb. Do you realize how many builds have evolved throughout StarCraft?
I think we might need to look at SC2 through a 1998 mindset rather then a 2009 one. For one I dont think you could steer this game to be exactly like SC1 if you tried.
You can have general things you want for the game. Like it should encourage economic competition or it shoud have multiple build orders early game. But nailing down a specific thing and saying that zerg have to be able to 2 hatch may not be realistic.
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On September 09 2009 02:12 Lumi wrote: The problems I don't think Blizz staff even consider are things like map control - yeah, someone can 'survive' an early rush by turtling but wow are there problems with that. Here's a list of issues with P and PvZ based on my own playing (14 games as P at blizzcon)
1) Now Protoss is forced to play like terran with a wall-in?
You don't have to wallin. Chokes with units and the disruptors force field work quite well.
2) You have to build a second gateway, just because you might die if you don't? With 1, it's a given, but 2 and you're /really/ making the entirety of toss early game a necessarily uncreative and boring thing. This does not promote originality, not only in the early game but in the whole game as the starting BOs are so relevant to everything thereafter.
Of course you need one gateway but you don't need to get the 2nd gateway right away.
3) If you have to use workers to defend something, your economy is going to crap, and a skillful player (the likes of which Blizzard's entire staff does not have you can really damage their economy; if not by worker kills then by delaying their mining. So Blizzard is saying, okay guys, you can desperately defend this while suffering economically to do so.
I don't know how you come to this conclusion or what you are referring to .
4) The lack of scouting capability for anyone trapped in the necessary gameplay of turtling. Playing without scouting was for 1998 Bnet BGH games. For a real game, it's vital.
There are plenty of scouting options, it isn't the same as SC1. You can scout zerg, you just have to move around the creep. By the time they get a queen you should have a good idea what's going on. Terran is the only race where its significantly difficult to scout, but you can test their wallin to gauge troops, observers only require a robo which is cheaper 200/100.
5) Zerg gets map control. Let me repeat, Zerg Gets Map Control. I don't think Blizz understands that decent players actually understand this concept and that getting map control so severely is likely to turn into a guaranteed win. Survival often means delaying in this game. It wouldn't be so bad, perhaps, if scouting was an option still, or if completely basic mechanics from SC1 like dropships still existed.
Zerg gets map control vs Protoss early/mid and same against terran in sc1. Equating map control with an auto victory is plain sillly.
6) I don't think these guys understand Tempo, either.
Another statement with nothing to back it up or logical reasoning.
7) Psionic storm is worse. So clustered groups of hydras etc aren't exactly susceptable to it anymore unless the player wielding them is bad and/or the player with psi-storm is a magician. Psi-storm is a critical part in toss vs hydras (and lurks, who can probably survive a second storm now just by unburrowing and moving, since the casting delay) and now that isn't there.
Sounds like you need more practice with the new psi storm. Units cluster much better in sc2 making storm just as good or better, even at 80 damage.
8) DTs and HTs come from seperate buildings now, even though both were oft vital for a PvZ match. So just to get DTs you have to spend money on the seperate building for just that and since that's obviously not going to happen in priority over HTs, say goodbye to DTs helping to keep zerg bases and economies down. Oh, and don't forget the lack of dropships, making DTs and HTs even more useless at harassing economy.
Lack of dropships? They're called warp prisms.
9) Immortals are so bad. Look at how fast zerglings are. Why would the zerg ever let their lings get hit by that piece of crap? And when they have map control, you can't exactly just put it in their base and force them to deal with it.
Not every unit is good against every other unit. Immortals are extremely effective against roaches and ultralisk.
Now, SC2 is a different game, yeah yeah, but it plays much the same aside for these mechanics like the queen altering things up dangerously. If you look at the changes to the races and then considered Z vs P or T in sc1, you'd understand that Z just got a huge boost with the lack of medics, DTs, sairs (no air buildings right after cybercore),
Stargate is right after cybernetics core and you can make the phoenix immediately.
reavers, and toss shuttles. And that they can control the map and stop scouting in at least the vs P match-up. Now, that would be glaringly obviously imbalanced for SC1, but this is SC2, so we can't be sure it's imba. But, it doesn't mean it can't be, and it definitely looks that way.
The staff for wc3 stopped patching that game a long time ago, and of course most anyone frlom sc1 and its patching are likely even more long gone than for wc3. Who the hell did Blizzard dig up to try and make this an esport? The gameplay has been dumbed down into some obvious (and poor) attempt to make the gameplay a bunch of turtling and mass unit fights. Hopefully players can fix this during the beta, and that the expansions will eventually vary things up enough.
I could complain about a lot more things in SC2 but I'll try to cut this off, I doubt many are going to read this anyhow on page 5 or 6 of a thread.
Your post is pretty inflammatory without much basis for your reasoning or sound logic. You're probably better off posting on the battle.net forums instead of here.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Bah, I haven't played the alpha builds, but I see there's a drastic change in the way zerg works and I'll try to elaborate.
In SC, Zerg has to tech. This is the key to understanding the zerg economy and zerg metagame as a whole and this is why many people fail to predict what the zerg is doing, because teching is not an economical issue for terran or protoss. See protoss, they have a zealot and a goon, two most used units. A zealot takes 400 ticks to builds while a goon takes 500. A zealot costs 100 minerals while a goon costs 125. See? No matter which one you build, your 1 gateway will waste exactly 25 minerals per 100 ticks (and that's 5-6 gateways per a saturated base depending on how many crystals it has and if you don't build anything other than units). With slight differences the same works out for terran, your production doesn't really depend on tech level. But zerg is drastically different! Economy-wise, every single zerg unit has the same buildtime. That leads to the zerg teching in a timely manner. To be more precise, zerg always needs to either tech or expand otherwise he is going to waste lots of minerals on hatcheries that don't serve any purpose other than building units.
I'll make this a point of stress. If we only take minerals and no "overlord overhead", it takes exactly four times(!) more hatcheries to spend your resources into lings than into ultralisks. Four times! This is basically the reason zerg rushes are that much all-in. Even if he manages to recover worker-wise, if he hasn't teched he will require an increasing number of hatcheries to keep building low-level stuff. Teching is a natural thing for zergs, they need it to survive and they experience a drastic increase in production capabilities once they strike a new technology plank. That was the very point behind the infamous (although outdated) 3 hatch muta - as soon as resources start to pile up, your spire is built and voila you start spending 100 minerals per larva instead of 50 and 3 hatches are again enough to spend your resources for a minute or two longer.
Now, take SC2. Suddenly, one hatchery per mining base is enough to satiate all your mining needs. Suddenly, you don't have to waste those minerals into hatches that don't do anything, because now timings allow you to only build a new hatch when you expand. This allows zerg to stay on low tech for a while longer without any long-term consequences. Well, just a while, maybe a minute. Every serious SC players knows that even a 30 second change in timings is killer.
What is the point of this post? Well, I wanted to stress that larva management affects the zerg metagame in more ways than one. Actually, it shapes the whole zerg metagame. I think it's a very sensitive mechanism changes to which are reflected quadratically or even qubically in changes to timings, because it affects flexibility, and both mining capacity and production capacity as shown in this post above, all at the same time. It's better left untouched.
On a side note, did anyone try overlord's spawn creep for a first in history zerg proxy tech? As far as I understood, this ability essentially allows you to build zerg buildings anywhere on the map, right? Or is the new surround that effective that hiding is not needed?
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Calgary25938 Posts
Well, inject larvae is so good i doubt anyone brought the queen anywhere but to inject more larvae.
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ling contain ----> power drones ez
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maybe one could go for a spine crawler rush with creep drop for a timing attack before hydras.....
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Calgary25938 Posts
On September 09 2009 10:11 SWPIGWANG wrote: maybe one could go for a spine crawler rush with creep drop for a timing attack before hydras..... You guys are ridiculous. Yes I could do that, or I could just inject larvae and end up 50% ahead in supply. COME ON PEOPLE, I know this is the SC2 forum but please use your head.
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On September 09 2009 10:36 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2009 10:11 SWPIGWANG wrote: maybe one could go for a spine crawler rush with creep drop for a timing attack before hydras..... You guys are ridiculous. Yes I could do that, or I could just inject larvae and end up 50% ahead in supply. COME ON PEOPLE, I know this is the SC2 forum but please use your head.
All I can say is... you're a patient guy :-)
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On September 07 2009 19:01 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 18:54 FortuneSyn wrote: Nice read! Do you have an idea of the highest iccup rank that lost to karune? Karune says he's at about 200 APM in SC2 and that he only really loses to David Kim
Nerf David Kim!
Nice post though, good info to think about.
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Chill, Queen aside were there different build options you could do early game? Like we know 2 hatch didnt work but are there options like Spawning pool then Queen then X or Spawning pool then Queen then Y or spawning pool then Z then Queen.
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Sanya12364 Posts
Pretty much it sounded like SpawnPool -> Queen -> whatever. Was it 13 Queen or something like that? The lack of variety in Zerg opening was to suggest there is only one viable opening which is to drone to a Queen as early as possible. After that, the Zerg's options are open.
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On September 09 2009 12:11 TanGeng wrote: Pretty much it sounded like SpawnPool -> Queen -> whatever. Was it 13 Queen or something like that? The lack of variety in Zerg opening was to suggest there is only one viable opening which is to drone to a Queen as early as possible. After that, the Zerg's options are open.
Yah but what do you get after Queen? Is there still variety in the early game?
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The whole point is with that queen you get such a large production boost you can go all-in lings (if he didn't wall and turtle like crazy), massssssss drones without fear of getting run over. (with lord scouting when he moves out, and the large production boost allowing you to mass lings before he arrives at your base) A hydra all in (if he went for a FE or some variation,), or anything in between.
The best part is that your opponent cannot scout this efficiently at all because of improved AI, and queen's ability to kill the first one.
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On September 09 2009 12:37 randombum wrote: The whole point is with that queen you get such a large production boost you can go all-in lings (if he didn't wall and turtle like crazy), massssssss drones without fear of getting run over. (with lord scouting when he moves out, and the large production boost allowing you to mass lings before he arrives at your base) A hydra all in (if he went for a FE or some variation,), or anything in between.
The best part is that your opponent cannot scout this efficiently at all because of improved AI, and queen's ability to kill the first one.
So actually the queen does open up lots of different early game builds. Your losing the 2 hatch build but your gaining a whole bunch of other ones.
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Pretty much. Think of it this way, for less minerals and build time you get the production of over 2 hatches early game (before you even need to mine from a second base) at far less cost.
The 2 hatch build in SC1 is popular because you need it to produce larvae, not because the second base makes you mine faster. It does make you mine faster, but its Larvae first, extra base second.
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Calgary25938 Posts
Yea, because we don't know what does what there was huge variety, haha. Zatic really liked Roach Muta, I really liked Muta harass and Hydras, Hot_Bid usually stuck on one base and massed Zerglings or Hydras and then went straight to Ultras.
We don't know what works to be honest, there simply wasn't enough time to try out everything.
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On September 09 2009 13:42 Chill wrote: Yea, because we don't know what does what there was huge variety, haha. Zatic really liked Roach Muta, I really liked Muta harass and Hydras, Hot_Bid usually stuck on one base and massed Zerglings or Hydras and then went straight to Ultras.
We don't know what works to be honest, there simply wasn't enough time to try out everything.
On that note. Still no Terran or Protoss report? It's been nearly 3 weeks since Blizzcon. Starting to remind me a bit of Blizzard ;/
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On September 09 2009 14:02 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2009 13:42 Chill wrote: Yea, because we don't know what does what there was huge variety, haha. Zatic really liked Roach Muta, I really liked Muta harass and Hydras, Hot_Bid usually stuck on one base and massed Zerglings or Hydras and then went straight to Ultras.
We don't know what works to be honest, there simply wasn't enough time to try out everything. On that note. Still no Terran or Protoss report? It's been nearly 3 weeks since Blizzcon. Starting to remind me a bit of Blizzard ;/ Protoss report: Mauled by zerg. Terran report: Mauled by zerg.
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this debate is getting out of control. It seems everyone is forgetting that a lot of things are still going to change. AND if you really doubt that Blizzard has thought about these concepts already, you are crazy. Never-the-less I'm sure some Blizzard employees are sitting at the HQ saying - "hey, there are some people making pretty good points, though"
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I recon the queen looks so good, I herd something strange, apparently its good to bio against a toss and mech against Z in sc2
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Whoops, meant the colossus, not the immortal.
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I'm wondering - wouldn't simply attacking gates with lings from front make it problem for P? Just like you attack forge/gate in front of P's FE with hydras if cannon is too far from them. Since P has only 1 zealot whose task is to protect choke he won't even try to move it. But dunno, i didn't play this game and don't know timings, but I'd like to see somebody trying this on next opportunity
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On September 09 2009 20:06 Kaniol wrote: I'm wondering - wouldn't simply attacking gates with lings from front make it problem for P? Just like you attack forge/gate in front of P's FE with hydras if cannon is too far from them. Since P has only 1 zealot whose task is to protect choke he won't even try to move it. But dunno, i didn't play this game and don't know timings, but I'd like to see somebody trying this on next opportunity
the 2nd and 3rd zealot pops out before the shields of the gate go down if I remember correctly
Most people have been making good points, and I do think that the 1-hatch queen gives a large level of flexibility to zerg early game, but I don't see this as something that needs to be fixed on the zerg side.
The one thing I think is truly too powerful right now is the queen's ability to stop scouts early game. An easy fix for this is to reduce the queen's range vs ground from 3 to 0-2 If this is done a worker can dance around the edge of the creep better avoiding the queen who essentially can't leave the creep (moves reaver level of slow off creep)
The reason the devs believed Zerg to be the weaker race is because they are having a hard time defending mid-game pushes from other races with the zerg mid-game tech.
Also, it wasn't in this build I don't think, but they had said there is a build back at blizzard where roaches get the same move while burrowed ability infesters get currently.
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Zurich15234 Posts
On September 09 2009 21:18 Shiladie wrote: The one thing I think is truly too powerful right now is the queen's ability to stop scouts early game. An easy fix for this is to reduce the queen's range vs ground from 3 to 0-2 If this is done a worker can dance around the edge of the creep better avoiding the queen who essentially can't leave the creep (moves reaver level of slow off creep) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510¤tpage=All#18
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On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote: the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field...
in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race....
lol what a surprise a player who wants to play an imbalanced game if its in his favor. Balance is key, on your side as well my friend.
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On September 10 2009 12:31 Postaljester wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote: the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field...
in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race.... lol what a surprise a player who wants to play an imbalanced game if its in his favor. Balance is key, on your side as well my friend. you're talking nonsense.
zerg had the problem of needing far more larva than they were getting. protoss could always build probes, zealots, and pylons simultaneously...if you max out mineral gathering rates at your bases you'll be getting your troops faster as a protoss player. as a zerg player you have to rely on your battle wits to win out. usually this means using mutalisks and/or lurkers with great skill. and sometimes it means rushing with zerglings with great skill...if you can't outright win the games by these methods then you usually jump to take the map and overrun the protoss with whatever...usually hydralisks or ultralisks. without the larva acceleration, it's very hard to get enough larva for drones, zerglings, sunken colonies, overlords...all the while finding the cash to expand and tech up without falling behind on anything. you see protoss can build only what he needs to defend, and tech up and/or rush whatever he needs to do as he sees with his scouting probe.
part of the problem is the ramps. protoss are very strong on ramps. you take away the ramps, and suddenly zerg has a huge edge! but guess what? all the latest maps in sc2 are going to be ramp maps!! that means protoss will have that awesome ramp edge. so what does zerg have to compensate? the larva production.
On September 09 2009 00:42 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2009 21:34 dcttr66 wrote: ok, i just wanted to say...the announcement for blizzard that sc2 would be at pax happened on the first, right? and yet looking at the pax website they were already out of tickets on the 31st. and the annoying thing is that this is where i live! hah...i just noticed all that. that's rather weird. i would've loved to get to play the game on friday. also, apparently pax is short for penny arcade expo. i guess i should figure out where that is if it's nearby... There were a thousand extra tickets available for sat/sun. You could have gone if you wanted oh...well regardless this whole thing was very short notice i think... :D anyway i was already at bumbershoot saturday...and doing something else on sunday... :/ but yeah if i'd known ahead of time i totally would've gone friday...i think the event was held on that day looking at the website...i'll just have to keep my eyes a bit more peeled i guess from now on.
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Well the issue is simple if 1 hatch queen is overpowered... nerf the queen's Spawn Larva
if FE 2 hatch is underpowered, then increase the Larva rate of Hatcheries.
so that 2 hatchery Fast Expand is not necessarily worse than 1 Hatchery+Queen (one is just a Fast Expand the other is more military focused)
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On September 09 2009 11:57 Duckvillelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 19:01 Shiladie wrote:On September 07 2009 18:54 FortuneSyn wrote: Nice read! Do you have an idea of the highest iccup rank that lost to karune? Karune says he's at about 200 APM in SC2 and that he only really loses to David Kim Nerf David Kim!Nice post though, good info to think about. I wish David Kim would post his thoughts about the game, ideally here but at least on the bnet forums. It sounds like his understanding of the game is head and shoulders above that of anyone else in the world, at this point.
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Great post. I'm glad to see someone was able to see what I was talking about. Thanks for posting your thoughts. :D
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 19:28 Joneagle_X wrote: Great post. I'm glad to see someone was able to see what I was talking about. Thanks for posting your thoughts. :D
What the hell are you talking about. It doesn't address the main issue. And if you think that this post addresses the issues, you have no concept of strategy and timings in SC.
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On September 11 2009 21:25 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 19:28 Joneagle_X wrote: Great post. I'm glad to see someone was able to see what I was talking about. Thanks for posting your thoughts. :D What the hell are you talking about. It doesn't address the main issue. And if you think that this post addresses the issues, you have no concept of strategy and timings in SC.
Theres that TL welcome
Seriously, attack the arguement not the person.
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On September 10 2009 13:07 dcttr66 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2009 12:31 Postaljester wrote:On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote: the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field...
in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race.... lol what a surprise a player who wants to play an imbalanced game if its in his favor. Balance is key, on your side as well my friend. you're talking nonsense. zerg had the problem of needing far more larva than they were getting. protoss could always build probes, zealots, and pylons simultaneously...if you max out mineral gathering rates at your bases you'll be getting your troops faster as a protoss player. as a zerg player you have to rely on your battle wits to win out. usually this means using mutalisks and/or lurkers with great skill. and sometimes it means rushing with zerglings with great skill...if you can't outright win the games by these methods then you usually jump to take the map and overrun the protoss with whatever...usually hydralisks or ultralisks. without the larva acceleration, it's very hard to get enough larva for drones, zerglings, sunken colonies, overlords...all the while finding the cash to expand and tech up without falling behind on anything. you see protoss can build only what he needs to defend, and tech up and/or rush whatever he needs to do as he sees with his scouting probe. part of the problem is the ramps. protoss are very strong on ramps. you take away the ramps, and suddenly zerg has a huge edge! but guess what? all the latest maps in sc2 are going to be ramp maps!! that means protoss will have that awesome ramp edge. so what does zerg have to compensate? the larva production. Show nested quote +On September 09 2009 00:42 Tsagacity wrote:On September 08 2009 21:34 dcttr66 wrote: ok, i just wanted to say...the announcement for blizzard that sc2 would be at pax happened on the first, right? and yet looking at the pax website they were already out of tickets on the 31st. and the annoying thing is that this is where i live! hah...i just noticed all that. that's rather weird. i would've loved to get to play the game on friday. also, apparently pax is short for penny arcade expo. i guess i should figure out where that is if it's nearby... There were a thousand extra tickets available for sat/sun. You could have gone if you wanted oh...well regardless this whole thing was very short notice i think... :D anyway i was already at bumbershoot saturday...and doing something else on sunday... :/ but yeah if i'd known ahead of time i totally would've gone friday...i think the event was held on that day looking at the website...i'll just have to keep my eyes a bit more peeled i guess from now on.
zerg never needed more larvae than they were getting.
In fact the game was patched way back when because larvae re spawned TOO fast and people could 1 hatch hydra and shit
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 22:06 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 21:25 TanGeng wrote:On September 11 2009 19:28 Joneagle_X wrote: Great post. I'm glad to see someone was able to see what I was talking about. Thanks for posting your thoughts. :D What the hell are you talking about. It doesn't address the main issue. And if you think that this post addresses the issues, you have no concept of strategy and timings in SC. Theres that TL welcome Seriously, attack the arguement not the person.
Did you read posts about the flaws of this supposed "answer?"
Just answering about how to defend against 1-hatch-queen + lings or 1-hatch-queen + hydra and accepting that as a good answer shows a serious lack of understanding of strategic concepts.
It's not even worth arguing with someone like that. It's like a professor arguing with a little child. A person that actually read through Hot Bid's article would understand that it's far more nuanced than defending against an early bunch of hydras. It's naive to think that a P or T could prepare defenses specifically to counter hydras and lings and the Z would graciously walk into that trap.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Regardless, don't you think you'll get more people to see your point if you coat it in a bit of diplomacy, instead of hitting them over the head with it?
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On September 11 2009 22:34 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2009 22:06 Archerofaiur wrote:On September 11 2009 21:25 TanGeng wrote:On September 11 2009 19:28 Joneagle_X wrote: Great post. I'm glad to see someone was able to see what I was talking about. Thanks for posting your thoughts. :D What the hell are you talking about. It doesn't address the main issue. And if you think that this post addresses the issues, you have no concept of strategy and timings in SC. Theres that TL welcome Seriously, attack the arguement not the person. Did you read posts about the flaws of this supposed "answer?" Just answering about how to defend against 1-hatch-queen + lings or 1-hatch-queen + hydra and accepting that as a good answer shows a serious lack of understanding of strategic concepts. It's not even worth arguing with someone like that. It's like a professor arguing with a little child. A person that actually read through Hot Bid's article would understand that it's far more nuanced than defending against an early bunch of hydras. It's naive to think that a P or T could prepare defenses specifically to counter hydras and lings and the Z would graciously walk into that trap.
I didnt say anything about the "answer". Were talking about your attack of the person and not the arguement.
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On September 08 2009 04:27 dcttr66 wrote: as it is...in warcraft 3 people will pick particular heroes because they know that they will always get the worker kill. an example is a mountain king...he can storm bolt so kill a worker for 75 mana. but, that does incur a cost. a better example is an agility hero. like the blademaster or a demon hunter. if your opponent went one of those heroes, you can bet there's no way your worker is getting away. lol thats not why u pick those heroes, its just a result of picking them.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 11 2009 23:16 FrozenArbiter wrote: Regardless, don't you think you'll get more people to see your point if you coat it in a bit of diplomacy, instead of hitting them over the head with it?
Hmm, I was thinking about being more diplomatic, but at this point, it boils down to "read the arguments" - both Hot Bid's and the reply, compare, contrast, and analyze. That's sort of hitting them over the head - only a littler light blow. I'm not sure it's completely warranted, but I didn't want to mince any words. Sorry.
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I don't mind the attacks. Happens every time. No big deal.
But in response to my "having no concept of timing or strategy in SC" or arguing "like a child." I'd like to point to the fact that this player had just as much hands-on time with the build as Hot_Bid and was "focused" on the same issue, that is a 1-Hatch ling and/or Hydra build.
Simple build order that focuses on reacting to an obvious 10-pool. I've said it 20 times and now Karune's even stated it. 1-Hatch is a good option but is not OP.
Of course you can sit here all day and theory craft a way around it but... wait--nevermind, you can't.
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Sanya12364 Posts
All I saw Karune state was that he was
A. Going to turtle, tech, and defend B. Hope the Zerg chooses the worst possible strategy against a turtling teching defender.
That's a very comprehensive strategy! Good luck with that.
On September 13 2009 06:02 Joneagle_X wrote: Of course you can sit here all day and theory craft a way around it but... wait--nevermind, you can't. It's been done. Hot Bid even posted a little about his experiences play testing it. It's not our fault you don't read.
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I just stated that this player had as much play time with the game as Hot_Bid at BlizzCon. Not my fault you don't read.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 13 2009 06:52 Joneagle_X wrote: I just stated that this player had as much play time with the game as Hot_Bid at BlizzCon. Not my fault you don't read.
Not all players are created equal. 10 hours of some people's time is worth a 1000 of other people's. How fast people can concoct a competent strategy depends on their strategic sense. When you have none, it takes you a hell of a long time. Hell, there's a possibility that you never come up with a decent strategy.
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Zurich15234 Posts
Well judging from Karune's answer people were 10 pool rushing. Regardless of how many hours someone played Starcraft2 that is obviously easily defended if you do what Karune said. He did not address what we are talking about for a good 1000 posts now though.
What is this focus on how many hours someone played the game anyway? I have played probably more SC2 than anyone here, does that make me "more right" than someone else who posts a compelling argument? No.
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I'd like to clearly delineate right now that the averment that a person with a superior quantity of experience will always issue more accurate, enlightened, or predictive statements than a person with an inferior quantity of experience is a mere assumption. It is a very intuitive assumption that might not bother people to take as fact, but the truth is it is not a fact. It is not even a theory. Please do not rely on it unless you have evidence supporting its applicability to the relevant situation.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On September 13 2009 07:40 EchOne wrote: I'd like to clearly delineate right now that the averment that a person with a superior quantity of experience will always issue more accurate, enlightened, or predictive statements than a person with an inferior quantity of experience is a mere assumption. It is a very intuitive assumption that might not bother people to take as fact, but the truth is it is not a fact. It is not even a theory. Please do not rely on it unless you have evidence supporting its applicability to the relevant situation.
Expert, expert use of complicated vocabulary to tell us that we should hedge our bets.
Yet, it still begs the question, how do we hedge our bets? Who should we believe more at this juncture? I mean once the truth comes out, there is no need for "experts" to give us second-hand information.
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Osaka26952 Posts
On September 11 2009 23:16 FrozenArbiter wrote: Regardless, don't you think you'll get more people to see your point if you coat it in a bit of diplomacy, instead of hitting them over the head with it?
This could go for a lot of people in this thread.
A couple things to keep in mind please. Don't be a martyr, you will get banned. Don't turn threads into skill bashes about a game that nobody has been able to play for any significant amount of time. You will get banned. If you are new on TL, read before you post. Thanks.
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