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Poll: What race do you get cheese'd most by?Protoss (616) 75% Terran (139) 17% Zerg (68) 8% 823 total votes Your vote: What race do you get cheese'd most by? (Vote): Protoss (Vote): Terran (Vote): Zerg
So yeah. Thought this would be an interesting statistic to have.
Personally, I pretty much only get cheesed by Protoss.
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For me it's protoss. I never see 6pool from zerg and haven't seen a 6rax reaper in ages. Proxy 2 gate in my base isn't all that uncommon though.
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What counts as cheese? 8rax? 10rax? Proxy 12 rax? Proxy pylon? Hidden DTs? Hidden zerg building under an overlord?
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Voidsrays -> Protoss wins this pool
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On May 17 2010 06:30 kNyTTyM wrote: For me it's protoss. I never see 6pool from zerg and haven't seen a 6rax reaper in ages. Proxy 2 gate in my base isn't all that uncommon though.
Exactly the same case for me. Whatever happened to reapers?
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Protoss gets my vote. They are getting another abuse checklist being developed. [ ] Proxy Pylon / Warpgates [ ] Early/Proxy Void Rays [ ] Dark Templar rush [ ] ForceField ramp abuse
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Protoss. Terrans do all kinds of annoying builds, but Protoss is what delivers the cheese.
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It's pretty much to the point where I don't know what a "normal" protoss build would look like.
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On May 17 2010 06:30 pyr0ma5ta wrote: What counts as cheese? 8rax? 10rax? Proxy 12 rax? Proxy pylon? Hidden DTs? Hidden zerg building under an overlord?
Cheese is anything that gives a massive, potentially game winning advantage through means of secrecy. Basically anything that is a massive threat if you don't scout it. Hidden DT tech is cheese. Cannon proxy is cheese. Building a spire somewhere with overlord creep is cheese. Proxy reaper could be considered cheese, but honestly its so common now I'm not sure you can really call it that.
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Cheese is just the lack of scouting. Imo real cheese can be only pulled off early game. A bigger problem are builds/cheese you can very well scout but cannot counter like 6 Rax Reaper vs. Protoss.
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terran reaper rush + 8 pool = impossible to stop I dont fear any protoss cheeses, just that specific cheese
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I don't get cheesed. Ever.
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on 2 player maps alot of zergs do some gay 8pool or whatever the fuck and i cant do shit to stop it, same with terrans and their fucking fast reaper gay shit
protoss is almost always proxy gate/4gate allin, in about every pvp i play
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I get the most cheesed by Toss. Like a majority of my toss losses are too toss cheeze.
Lmao at the high discrepancy between the amount of TOSS cheesers and the other two race.
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I get cheesed in about 25% of my games. The most by far is from protoss. Reaper rushes are rare nowindays and zerg seem to prefer to FE.
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Why is random not on the poll? Atleast 50% of random players cheese me on the ladder.
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On May 17 2010 06:40 Slunk wrote: I don't get cheesed. Ever. how is this possible O_O lol
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Without a doubt protoss. TvP on scrap station has turned my scouting pattern into a Rorschach painting.
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On May 17 2010 06:54 DrivE wrote:how is this possible O_O lol
It might be in bronze/copper.
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On May 17 2010 06:31 cursor wrote: Protoss gets my vote. They are getting another abuse checklist being developed. [ ] Proxy Pylon / Warpgates [ ] Early/Proxy Void Rays [ ] Dark Templar rush [ ] ForceField ramp abuse
FF ramp abuse is not cheese....
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protoss is the mother of all cheeses.
PD: Personally hate the cannon rush , only happened to me twice and i hate it the most.
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omfg ..... I'm so raging right now. I voted Terran here, and then went for a ladder game. My first game after a 4 days break. ZvP, Kulas Ravine, I scout his pylon in my base when it was at 50% and I'm like: "scouted cannon rush = easy win lol". I a-move 4-5 drones to the pylon while waiting for him to leave. I take it down but he places 2 cannons + another 2 pylons, I overestimate drones dmg, and also suicide 6 lings trying to take down the pylons ... I kept making lings but they were useless already. I suddenly realized that I'm actually losing the game and remembered spine crawlers exist ... but it was too late as he already advanced forward with cannons and started to hit my pool >< Happens so often for me to scout some cheese and then stupidly lose because I think it's so easy to defend and get lazy
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On May 17 2010 06:31 Gaxton wrote: Voidsrays -> Protoss wins this pool
this is why i think this poll is so wrong
wtf is cheese on vr ?
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who is a better player, one that puts dark shrine in their base or someone who proxies it. Someone who puts the hive in their base or someone who proxies it? They both have disadvantages.
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Protoss. Almost every game, proxies/cannons/Void Rays. Silver/Gold players.
As for Terran, reapers come and go. But not all that often nowadays.
Zerg; rarely.
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On May 17 2010 06:40 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:30 pyr0ma5ta wrote: What counts as cheese? 8rax? 10rax? Proxy 12 rax? Proxy pylon? Hidden DTs? Hidden zerg building under an overlord? Cheese is anything that gives a massive, potentially game winning advantage through means of secrecy. Basically anything that is a massive threat if you don't scout it. Hidden DT tech is cheese. Cannon proxy is cheese. Building a spire somewhere with overlord creep is cheese. Proxy reaper could be considered cheese, but honestly its so common now I'm not sure you can really call it that.
what if the Dark Shrine is in my base, easily see-able with good scans, reapers, overlords, observers, etc.
is it still cheese in that case?
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I get cheesed the most by Terrans and Zerg, basically reapers and zergling rushes are the most common. Only time ive been cheesed by a toss was when i got proxy gated on Twilight Fortress.
And now that i think about it i've been cannon rushed once aswell ^^
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On May 17 2010 06:57 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:54 DrivE wrote:On May 17 2010 06:40 Slunk wrote: I don't get cheesed. Ever. how is this possible O_O lol It might be in bronze/copper.
I am only top 5 Gold, but that's not quite copper I guess. And seriously, I have played 110 games since the last ladder reset and I got cheesed exactly twice in that time. Also I do not cheese myself. There is simply no point in cheesing. Every cheese I ever saw (except for maybe desert oasis lowground bunker rush) is easily defendable and gives you worse winning chances than standard play. Not to mention that most of the time you don't learn anything from it. Also a lot of people might use the term cheese too often.
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On May 17 2010 06:31 cursor wrote: Protoss gets my vote. They are getting another abuse checklist being developed. [ ] Proxy Pylon / Warpgates [ ] Early/Proxy Void Rays [ ] Dark Templar rush [ ] ForceField ramp abuse
None of what you listed is cheese except for the proxy VR - holy crap I wish people would at one point learn the difference between all-in, clever use of spells and cheese.
Canon rush, proxies are (generally) cheeses. And the reason we don't see much cheese by zergs are that they pretty much only got 6-pool and the proxy hatch cancel into spine crawler thingy. Proxying vs Zerg as a terran really isn't all that feasible, as it is vs protoss, hence protoss players are more often cheesed by terrans than zerg are. And without taking MUs into account, the poll in the OP doesn't really tell us anything...
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Protoss is the master cheese race. Probably because there's sort of an debated line between what a cheese really is, and whether it's viable still to go for it, even if it gets spotted.
Example: I consider early two gate push to be a pretty cheesy all in strategy by the protoss, as a fast roach push will always win it, at least it has worked for me. Some may probably still call this a viable strategy as it forces the zerg to react, but usually my reaction ends up winning the game, because there is no way the Protoss will get anything up in time to hold it back.
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Of the 10 pvt i have ever played, i got cheeze at least half of them. I mean, barracks in your bases, bunkers in front of your shinny buildings, proxy reapers T.T worst thing is that i always see their main without the barrack and go "oh, this guy must be pretty bad lol"
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i can't remember the last TvT i played where I didn't get proxy 8rax'd. terran for me
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It's funny how people complain about Void Rays. If you don't see it coming than you are AWFUL. Actually it's probably the crappy league players complaining.
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I love getting cheesed, it's a free win.
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On May 17 2010 07:10 mnck wrote: Example: I consider early two gate push to be a pretty cheesy all in strategy by the protoss, as a fast roach push will always win it, at least it has worked for me. Some may probably still call this a viable strategy as it forces the zerg to react, but usually my reaction ends up winning the game, because there is no way the Protoss will get anything up in time to hold it back.
Bullshit. Look at the Orb vs. Idra on Blistring Sands (HDH Invitational). You get those two gates to force zerg to react, so you can pull ahead in economy and FE safely. If anyone twogating dies to the immediate roach counterattack, he must be pretty retarded.
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Protoss is definitely my hate race, while terran can proxy 6rax into reaper all they want, when I have my queen up its C YA. You don’t risk loosing your buildings to this sort of cheese and you usually manage to scout it easily
Unlike protoss that unbelievably fast proxy pylon/star gate chrono boost into voidray and worse when they charge them to full outside your base on destructible rocks or a well placed pylon and then micro them with fully charge into base.
You cant have hydras ready even with superfast lair, you literally must have 4 queens ready to fight off the 2 - 3 voidrays or scout the proxy with your speedlings or you will loose your main or your expo and if they destroy hydra den its gg right there.
Terran has NOTHING; they can do to me that is even remotely comparable. Proxxy rax? throw down a faster pool. Proxy star port, 1 banshee dies to 2 queens and does not come out as fast and thus you usually have hydras there. Want stealth too? Well afraid you going to have to wait for research to be finished and thus exposing you to scouting and it’s easily countered by having an overseer.
I think they should revert protoss back to sc1 when you needed twilight council / Citadel of adun to even start up your robotics and star gate techs.
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Protoss and reaper rush terran
Mostly all in immortals/voidrays/pure stalkers, strangely NO DT rush ! over 100+ games played at platium 1500+
Not saying they were effective but sure are annoying.
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I hate getting cheesed in PvP (just can't hold off 2 gate rush ) and PvZ (bleh zerglings) but I LOVE getting cheesed in PvT (till now I lost only once to reaper rush and I have encountered it 10+ times)
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How did that pylon get into my base!?!? nooooooo
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On May 17 2010 06:57 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:54 DrivE wrote:On May 17 2010 06:40 Slunk wrote: I don't get cheesed. Ever. how is this possible O_O lol It might be in bronze/copper.
I started in the copper league (didnt do any practise games, just jumped straght into the placement matches with no knowledge) and i never experienced any cheese until i reached high silver (where i am now). I guess ive reached the point in the ladder where most 'cheese only' players are stuck, they can beat lower ranked players with cheese but cant beat any anyone higher than them with it.. so they're stuck in high silver/low gold.
You dont get much cheese in the lower leagues, as anyone that does alot of cheese gets promoted quickly as there opponents cant combat it.
but it depends what you class as cheese, against other protoss players.. i like to go 12/14 gate (in my base) and put on alot of early pressure against players who chose to go 1gate>tech. I dont really class that as cheese, as they can and always will scout it and to combat it.. they just need to put down another gateway instead of teching. It just suits my play style, as i prefer aggressive builds with map control allowing me to expand easier and generally dictate when to tech. I dont go all-in with my gateways either, if my opponent puts down the other gate.. i will just use my gates to apply pressure while im teching.
Against zergs, depending on the map.. i'll do a 10gate build, this isnt aimed to winning the game there and then but simply to put pressure on them and/or protect me from any incoming rushes.
I also dont count going early voidrays as 'cheese' as long as it isnt a proxy. Terran have scan for a reason and zerg should be sacrificing an overlord to check out what im teching. Its not really cheese if its just due to you not scouting properly and blindly guessing what im doing. Its like me building a mass zealot army and then finding out my opponent went double starports.
Saying that, i dont really mind people doing cheese on me (as long as i dont get it 2+ times in a row). Its a change to the usual way i play and forces me to constantly be on my guard against it, i like to think that its my fault that i lost to cheese rather than raging at them cheesing. Although, i have came close to getting extremly annoyed when i played 3 ladder games and it was a 6pool zergling rush, followed by a cannon rush followed by another 6pool zergling rush. It annoyed me the most as just before it happend, i had been on a 5-6 win streak and near the top of silver league, so i was saying to myself.. I just have to win the next few games and im probably going to get into gold league.
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On May 17 2010 07:31 ondik wrote:I hate getting cheesed in PvP (just can't hold off 2 gate rush ) and PvZ (bleh zerglings) but I LOVE getting cheesed in PvT (till now I lost only once to reaper rush and I have encountered it 10+ times)
2 gate yourself when you scout thier 2nd gate, you will have slightly better econ since your 2nd gate went up later, you should hold it off easily and will come out slightly ahead, trying to hold off 2 gate with 1 gate on a short rush distance map usually ends in failure
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Terran cheeses me the most Reaper -> hellion -> cloaked banshees all day
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Cheese is a strategy that takes less skill to pull off than it does to block, often taking advantage of a flaw in game design.
Like doing all jump kicks in old fighting games. Simply teching to VR or DTs is NOT cheese.
The cannon rush is cheese. Its much easier to pull off than it is for the opponent to block it, and requires very little skill. This is the cheese I see most in games. Though I don't find it hard to stop.
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On May 17 2010 07:45 DrSmoke wrote: Cheese is a strategy that takes less skill to pull off than it does to block, often taking advantage of a flaw in game design.
Like doing all jump kicks in old fighting games. Simply teching to VR or DTs is NOT cheese.
The cannon rush is cheese. Its much easier to pull off than it is for the opponent to block it, and requires very little skill. This is the cheese I see most in games. Though I don't find it hard to stop. You're so right!
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80% of the cheese I see is reapers.
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I dunno, I consider cheese to be specifically a high-risk early all-in. I play protoss, and I don't really consider fast void rays to be a "cheese" unless you do it in such a way where you automatically lose if they are repelled ie: doing it blind or proxying. Void rays can be a pretty legitimate way to segue into a normal build if you just get them quickly while also building your ground army, I don't think that they are just inherently cheese.
Instant reaper vs protoss I would say is cheese. Reason being not because I'm a ridiculously biased protoss player, but rather because when a Terran does a fast reaper against me as protoss, he basically gets an auto-loss if he doesn't win right then and there. By the same token, a Terran player can get reapers relatively early to use for harass without just committing all-in to the first attack.
I actually love when terran try to reaper rush me, personally. I might lose 1-2 probes, but as soon as the stalker comes out the game is basically over.
All that being said though I think the answer IS still protoss. Just saying I think some people's definition of "cheese" is too broad. Any kind of early aggression isn't automatically cheese IMO. It has to be done in the form of an all-in for it to really be cheese. If you are able to end the game with early aggression without putting yourself at massive risk that's the opponent's failure, not a cheese.
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been cheesed by 3 terran fags in a row, 1 i stopped and won, the next on steppes of war he proxy 8rax into mass marauder? lol wut? so i make a zealot and start stalkers to stop the reapers that dont come and get rolled by a reaper fake. the 3rd im pretty sure he was map hacking because he randomly sends his scvs to my watch tower to make his barracks' then rallies to my main and never checks another main for me.
changing my vote to its insecure terranf aggots who cheese the most.
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Real cheese = 2/3gate proxy, forge/gate rush, 6pool, 6/7/8 rax proxy reaper... eg All-in
Everything else is just lack of scouting and the all pervasive 'anything that beats me is cheese' attitude that people have nowadays. I couldn't tell if Diggity was being serious or not but in a match he was commentating with idra vs (someone who's name escapes me) he was calling a hellion/marauder push that punished idra overexpanding/droning as 'cheese' which is just plain ridiculous.
More on topic... toss does the most real cheese (all-ins) byfar.
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Protoss. Especially in 2v2s. Let's see: -Proxy Zealot rush -Proxy pylon -Void ray rush -Dark templar rush
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As a 1500 Plat player.
The race I find that tries to cheese the most is Protoss, every second game is Voidray rushes or 2 gate proxy etc. More often than not they fail but I played a guy recently who did 2 gate proxy 3 games in a row to me even though he lost all the time. I think alot of new players to SC2 who didn't play SC1 have just picked up on Protoss as its kinda the easiest race to get good with fast and just do 1 build order every single game and manage to get plat with it.
The most effective cheese is probably terran players. Still don't lose to it often but banshee rush is one of those things that is difficult to stop even if you know its coming, can be easy to spot it late then get immediately killed by 2 banshees before any Hydra appear.
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LOL at everyone calling voidray cheese.
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rofl at all the terrans voting for protoss because they say void ray is cheese.
I get cheesed by terrans 10 times more often than the other races. In the 1400-1500 plat range it seems like 2/3rds of all terrans just go proxy rax-> fast marauders to end the game before 5 minutes.
Thankfully in a game yesterday I remembered the name of one of the guys who did it to me when I faced him again. And of course that cheesy fucker goes for the EXACT same thing, he actually goes for proxy rax marauders against EVERY SINGLE PROTOSS he faces. Fucking retarded. His excuse: "Otherwise you'll just go void rays." Lol. What was funny was that he said I only won because I got "a lucky surround"
Btw. void rays are so boring I dont get why so many Protosses go for them. Phoenixes ftw.
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On May 17 2010 08:10 arb wrote: been cheesed by 3 terran fags in a row, 1 i stopped and won, the next on steppes of war he proxy 8rax into mass marauder? lol wut? so i make a zealot and start stalkers to stop the reapers that dont come and get rolled by a reaper fake. the 3rd im pretty sure he was map hacking because he randomly sends his scvs to my watch tower to make his barracks' then rallies to my main and never checks another main for me.
changing my vote to its insecure terranf aggots who cheese the most. Yummy tears like this make me think I should cheese more
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are u guys voting on protoss just because u guys hate the race?
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i don't think anyone voting zerg is being reasonable.
lol, i just can't fathom it.
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Definitely Protoss, whether it's cannons outside my base, cannons IN my base, or gateways in my base.
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1v1 it's protoss doing proxy 2 gate in my base. In 2v2 it's zerg doing 6pool. If those things counts as cheese...
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I play on the Korean server, and seriously at least like 50% of the Protoss try and hide cannons in my base. They love that shit over there.
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On May 17 2010 08:57 Shizuru~ wrote: are u guys voting on protoss just because u guys hate the race?
No, because we got proxy gate Anyway, when I started playing ladder after the reset i got like 50% cheesed by gold players, then after 10-15 games it stopped, return to the 4/5 gate all in
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2 gate cheese is too easy.
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On May 17 2010 06:40 NadeDawg wrote: Cheese is just the lack of scouting. Imo real cheese can be only pulled off early game. A bigger problem are builds/cheese you can very well scout but cannot counter like 6 Rax Reaper vs. Protoss.
I LOVE when people say that they "cannot" counter it. It's called get an early gate once you see it comming (will be in their base on 2p maps besides maybe DO by the time the pylons up for only ~10 seconds) Then, if you see it comming, get an 11 gate, and cyber ASAP, crono stalker, BOOM. He might get 2-3 probes max, but he cut his eco HARD to do that, so you'll still be ahead. I do it all the time ^^
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On May 17 2010 08:19 Jimmeh wrote: -Dark templar rush
....................... Yeah all that damn dark templar rush cheese.
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Apparently any build Protoss does that doesn't involve Gate - Core - Robo is cheese, and even then according to some people it's still cheese if they make a forward pylon.
As for the actual question I get a fair share from every race.
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Mostly Protoss (How are there so many cannon rushers in Gold?). I have faced the occasional 6-pool though.
Kev
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Norway28261 Posts
for p to be winning this pool seems like people strongly misuse the term cheese I think about 95% of games ive seen where cheese was used terran was the culprit.
I haven't seen proxy gates for two months and I haven't seen zerg cheese even once.
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On May 17 2010 06:54 DrivE wrote:how is this possible O_O lol
obviously he does all the cheesing himself
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Is it really cheese to rush to a unit?
I voted toss because the only cheese I know of is early proxy/cannon rush. (Nothing teaches you to scout like contempt for cannon rushes.) Any race can proxy, but toss have the easiest time of it. If somebody rushes to void rays, it really isn't cheese IMO because it can be scouted and countered.
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On May 17 2010 09:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: for p to be winning this pool seems like people strongly misuse the term cheese I think about 95% of games ive seen where cheese was used terran was the culprit.
I haven't seen proxy gates for two months and I haven't seen zerg cheese even once. Well I don't know about everyone elses reason but this is precisely why I voted protoss actually. Two gate proxy is ridiculously common imo, to the point where I probably play a toss who tries to set up gateways inside or just outside my base about five times for every time I play a terran who does a super fast reaper or other variation of proxy rax. Actually something like my last seven PvT on scrap station and desert oasis were against two gate proxy.
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Q.Q, 5pool used to be the king of cheese, and now what have they done to my poor poor zerg.
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I was in silver for a while, like never got cheesed, then I got promoted to gold and now instantly it's like every other game, maybe just coincidence. I got 2 gate proxied on Kulas with the gateways in the exact same spot in 2 out of 3 games the other night (I scouted it the second time but still lost). 2 terrans in the last two days have also done no gas no expand 4-5 rax marine rushes which I lost to probably cause no gas which is the clue didn't register when I was scouting. One of them was through the backdoor rocks on incineration. Also had a 3 gate before core zealot rush in the past couple days.
The only one I saw in lower levels (I placed copper and have improved steadily since) that I haven't seen yet up higher is spine crawler rushes in zvz and nuke rushes. I just watched my sister in copper fight a planetary fortress rush yesterday too.
But protoss has the highest percent, most of the time the ones I get are various forms of all out zealot rushes.
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It's pretty easy to scout a cheesy build. Most maps, if you scout through a long path (at 8 or 9 supply) that involves the watch towers, 99% of the time you can spot a proxy rax or gateways. Respond accordingly.
That said, I've only been cheesed by terran or protoss. I haven't seen a zerg cheese in a while. Most of the cheese goes to protoss, but there are still a fair number of people who do cheese in 2on2's (double Terran doing a double reaper rush, TZ doing reaper rush + 6pool lings). It is generally harder to stop this in 2on2, but not impossible. The play is becoming more standard in 1on1 now that people are scouting for the bad manners.
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I agree that protoss cheese the most (from what I have seen) but some of you are exaggerating. 2/3 of protoss tech trees are instant cheese? I often tech and rush in 2 dts then take my expansion but sometimes when they lose some workers they rage and call it cheese. D:
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I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic.
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Well, i was only cheesed once by reapers, but I myself have cheesed gates a few times, so id say toss.
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On May 17 2010 09:24 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: for p to be winning this pool seems like people strongly misuse the term cheese I think about 95% of games ive seen where cheese was used terran was the culprit.
I haven't seen proxy gates for two months and I haven't seen zerg cheese even once. Well I don't know about everyone elses reason but this is precisely why I voted protoss actually. Two gate proxy is ridiculously common imo, to the point where I probably play a toss who tries to set up gateways inside or just outside my base about five times for every time I play a terran who does a super fast reaper or other variation of proxy rax. Actually something like my last seven PvT on scrap station and desert oasis were against two gate proxy.
shouldnt two gate proxy be pretty easy to hold off as terran?
the thing is, drone probably plays like 50 times as many games as other people so his opinion really says a lot more than some gold players who play like 10 games a week.
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On May 17 2010 09:48 Riot20 wrote: I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic.
No they are not a tactic, what do you proxy star gates into Voidrays to counter?
NOTHING
ANYONE doing it usually end up admitting that it is done to get easy wins against poor players.
These people who hide their tech, or go for TRICK plays that rely soledly on stealth to have success suck at playing standard.
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by homosexual panda prottoss most of the time.
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Seriously though, what most of you are describing as cheese just isn't. Rushing for DT's takes AGES, and it's quite a hefty investment.
Meaning, if you had actually scouted his base, you would have noticed that there was a surprisingly little amount of buildings and/or units there.
The vibe I'm getting here is that players will call anything cheese as long as they don't have a 60% win ratio against it. I remember this attitude from back in Quake. Strafejumping was an exploit, cheap, not in the spirit of the game, etc ... until these players could do it themselves. Suddenly, it turned from an exploit into a pro skill.
Go figure.
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I'd say protoss definitely, as they have very limited options anyway. :[
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problem with this thread is ppl will try to classify so many things as cheese, because if they died to cheese then it isn't really their fault. But very few things are abuses and cheeses. void rays are not cheese, sentry force field is not abuse. I see cheese as something that is impossible for opponent to predict and reactor to, and carries great risk of losing or being behind if fails. in broodwar 5pool is a cheese. Terran 8 rax reaper is a cheese. pylon in your base is not a cheese, neither is dt or voidray. Even proxy dt and void ray you can often make educated guess/predict based on toss's early game/army size.
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I get a good mix of all but you can be sure the likelyhood of cheese is in direct correlation with how much they type. 'GL HF', be cautious. 'Hey man, what league are you in?', about 85% chance. 'This is my first game, go easy on me', start sending workers into the fog of war because there is already a proxy there.
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Proxy Gates and/into Void Rays, Protoss win this poll.
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On May 17 2010 10:24 Actinium wrote: I get a good mix of all but you can be sure the likelyhood of cheese is in direct correlation with how much they type. 'GL HF', be cautious. 'Hey man, what league are you in?', about 85% chance. 'This is my first game, go easy on me', start sending workers into the fog of war because there is already a proxy there.
You know it's funny because everytime someone says "glhf" in a ladder game versus me they are doing something goofy, proxy gate, bunker rushing me, or ling rushing. It's weird, the silent people that don't say anything at the beginning of a game are more often then not the folks that just play a standard game. So everytime I see "glhf" I alter for early scouting.
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if in-base 2 gates are cheese...LOL
basically the last 2 days 80% of my games have been vs cheese from every race, I think zerg cheeses most though (basically zergling/baneling all-in EVERY GAME). I got proxy 2-gated once in a PvP, but I get proxy reaper rushed (sometimes with bunker) ALL THE TIME too. every race cheeses me way too much lol
and i never cheese :\
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Cheese by my definition is the 6 rax, 6 pool, 6/7 gate or proxy gate rush. I've been 6 pooled once or twice, never been proxied gated (although I did get cannoned it :p) but 6 rax reapered a ton of times.
Void Rays, hidden or no, aren't cheese. They're just strong units.
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really? seems like 1/3 of my steppes of war TvZs turn into 6pool defense.
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toss all day everday, they're getting really good at it to :D
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On May 17 2010 06:57 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:54 DrivE wrote:On May 17 2010 06:40 Slunk wrote: I don't get cheesed. Ever. how is this possible O_O lol It might be in bronze/copper.
lolz, i play in bronze right now and there are the most cheeses, since noobs don't really like to play long games
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Norway28261 Posts
glider is correct void ray isn't cheese dt isnt cheese proxy gate or offensive cannon, sure, that's normally cheese (depends on followup tho) 8 rax reaper is normally cheese 6pool is cheese sentry has nothing to do with cheese at all
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2v2, everytime i'm against a PP team, it's double cannon rush, double proxy gate or something like that.
had one guy cannon rush into DTs into carriers. was a good feeling to beat someone like that.
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which race are you cheesed most by*
grammar please, but i put terran
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P for sure. I can't count how many times as zerg i see forge first into double stargate void rays or proxy double gate in your main. Z needs so badly to expand to keep up it sometimes is hard to win even if you spot the move. Worst map for this is desert oasis. Absolutely hate that map.
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Typically i play DTs it takes like 10mins RUSHING to get them how the hell is that cheese lol ( and i have 3 warpgates doing a normal army ), You can beat larger army sizes with DT's pretty well just dont put them in play until your army is fighting them ( how many people scan a huge battle half way through? ).
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I no longer see void ray as cheese.
why? because i see it nearly every game therefore it is standard play and expected.
BATTLE QUEENS are highly effective early AA :3
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Seems like Protoss is a clear favorite.
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Define cheese? As a protoss I'm not sure. Is a non-proxied 3gate with no gas cheese? Is a zerg taking his gas before pool and trying to do speedling runbys on one base cheese? Is a 4-tech lab marauder attack cheese? Those three are what I seem to face most often.
I'm surprised Protoss is winning, as I never do anything I would consider cheese. I never even do a 4/5 warp gate allin in PvP. Only cheese I see Protosses doing is fast 3gate without taking a gas cheese, which is really hard to stop unless you just match them on gateway count. It makes the game from that point really dumb since both players have a shit ton of zealots with a low amount of gas/no tech.
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On May 17 2010 06:57 ymirheim wrote: Without a doubt protoss. TvP on scrap station has turned my scouting pattern into a Rorschach painting. This post needs epic love.
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On May 17 2010 11:09 Liquid`Drone wrote: glider is correct void ray isn't cheese dt isnt cheese proxy gate or offensive cannon, sure, that's normally cheese (depends on followup tho) 8 rax reaper is normally cheese 6pool is cheese sentry has nothing to do with cheese at all
However it is perceived as such because most of the players doing it fail horribly at standard play. They go dark templar’s and when it fails they die.
What is the definition of cheese?
“Cheese
A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game “
So while yes, this is using quotes to fit my perspective of things.
The word cheese is so widespread and often used that any player remotely affiliated with this forum will pick right up on it and say. "Yea that build is kind of gay / lame / retarded."
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i get cheesed by all races equally because i'm a random player. ;; just cause you don't know what race i am =/= auto-cheese. ._.
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On May 17 2010 12:20 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 11:09 Liquid`Drone wrote: glider is correct void ray isn't cheese dt isnt cheese proxy gate or offensive cannon, sure, that's normally cheese (depends on followup tho) 8 rax reaper is normally cheese 6pool is cheese sentry has nothing to do with cheese at all
However it is perceived as such because most of the players doing it fail horribly at standard play. They go dark templar’s and when it fails they die. What is the definition of cheese? “Cheese A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game “ So while yes, this is using quotes to fit my perspective of things. The word cheese is so widespread and often used that any player remotely affiliated with this forum will pick right up on it and say. "Yea that build is kind of gay / lame / retarded."
i would say cheese is a stupid word that shouldnt even exist and its real embodiment is for bad players to rage about losing to builds that you actually have to adapt to play against, or requires some luck etc
but if one were to quantify it into a definition that one fits it pretty well most of the time
and yes protoss does this kind of secrecy/proxy builds alot more
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On May 17 2010 09:52 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:24 ymirheim wrote:On May 17 2010 09:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: for p to be winning this pool seems like people strongly misuse the term cheese I think about 95% of games ive seen where cheese was used terran was the culprit.
I haven't seen proxy gates for two months and I haven't seen zerg cheese even once. Well I don't know about everyone elses reason but this is precisely why I voted protoss actually. Two gate proxy is ridiculously common imo, to the point where I probably play a toss who tries to set up gateways inside or just outside my base about five times for every time I play a terran who does a super fast reaper or other variation of proxy rax. Actually something like my last seven PvT on scrap station and desert oasis were against two gate proxy. shouldnt two gate proxy be pretty easy to hold off as terran? the thing is, drone probably plays like 50 times as many games as other people so his opinion really says a lot more than some gold players who play like 10 games a week. Ehm.. what??
Whether or not you can fend it off has nothing to do with the definition. I am perfectly capable of stopping 2gate proxy if I see it. If I see the toss set up that pylon I just chuckle and think "nice, 20 easy points".
But it is still cheese. Which is what the question was.
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I play terran. And I always cringe when I find that he sent his starting probe to my base and made a pylon ---> 2 gate -_-
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I don't think cheese is a word that should be used with SC2. :/
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I would've thought it would be Protoss, but I get cheesed by Terran a lot more. One of my recent matches on Incineration Zone the T lifted right away and went to the gold, walled in and made a super quick MM army. I was quite surprised.
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Attempted cheese? Toss easily with cannon rushing. It doesn't usually work because while Im not all that skilled I am usually skilled enough to check for it. However they try it quite a fair bit more often than T or Z try all-in cheese. Terrans upon occasion try for a super fast reaper + bunker but its rare. Zerg only ever try baneling busts if Im terran or occasionally I get a silly sally try a spine crawler spawn on my creep if I pull Zerg as my race. Both of those are much rarer than Toss cannon attempts. I would say 1 out of 5 cheese attempts are done by a terran or zerg vs those tried by toss. Just my experiences. Frankly I don't run into it much. Although there seems to be this great murpheys law that says the second Im tired and forget to check for cannons, there they are hehe.
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As many times as i get proxied or mass zealot rushed, dt rushed, all in stalker rushed. Terran by far and away holds the title for most cheese.
Out of every 10 terrans i play, you might get 1 who plays straight up.
Its either, 3 rax marine all ins, cut worker reaper bunker rushes, cut worker marauder rushes, fast banshee cloak.
People say protoss is the 'all in' race, but some of those terran strats out there are so all in its rediculous. At least with a 4 gate build you have options. And really, blizzard has forced protoss into cheese builds... straight up our units dont compare at various points in the game, if we arent hiding something, chances are you are a worse player and we dont feel we need to.
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how is the 6 pool doing in sc2?? is it still auto-win?
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I feel the need to differentiate between the high-level void ray rush--with a follow up transition, viable defenses, and proper micro of the void rays-- and the low-level void ray rush--which is just throwing up a fast starport, not properly defending yourself, and not having a plan if the void ray fails. The latter is cheese, and relies solely on their opponent not scouting it.
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On May 17 2010 06:45 On_Slaught wrote: Reaper rushes are rare nowindays reaper rush is cheese? i dont think so, maybe if u make the barrack in enemy base and a bunker or make 15 of them and snipes the hatcery/cc/nexus it can be defined as cheese.
Myself i get most cheese from zergs that 6pool me but thats ofc because im zerg myself. Not that it bother me as it tend to fail 9 of 10 times.
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I GUESS YOU FORGOT TO PUT THE RANDOM RACE UP THERE.
95% of the cheese i face is that simply put hands down
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I love hearing people bitch about cheese. Just shows how bad you are at the game.
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Zerg has least votes wtf? O_o
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i say zerg, havnt play any ladder game on incineration zone vs zerg (ZvP) without beign 6pooled
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On May 17 2010 09:53 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:48 Riot20 wrote: I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic. No they are not a tactic, what do you proxy star gates into Voidrays to counter? NOTHING ANYONE doing it usually end up admitting that it is done to get easy wins against poor players. These people who hide their tech, or go for TRICK plays that rely soledly on stealth to have success suck at playing standard. Why the heck would you not hide your DT tech? Seriously, DT's are worthless if the enemy knows they're coming.
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9/10 times I get cheesed, it is a random player. It's gotten to the point where it seems that most random players (obviously not all) play random because they are only able to cheese, and want to have some variety in their games
ps. in-base 2-gate is NOT cheese. It is an opening.
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On May 17 2010 14:15 FeLonius wrote:9/10 times I get cheesed, it is a random player. It's gotten to the point where it seems that most random players (obviously not all) play random because they are only able to cheese, and want to have some variety in their games ps. in-base 2-gate is NOT cheese. It is an opening. Agreed. It's not like in-base 2-gate is an all-in or an auto-loss if countered. If I 2-gate, I don't do it for the early win but to apply pressure and keep my opponent contained so I can expand/tech more freely.
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I know balance is mostly focused around 1v1, But they will really need to fix prox rax reaper/6 pool vs Protoss (or any race really) as its pretty much impossible to stop as protoss or help regardless if you know its coming.
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On May 17 2010 14:24 Delrake wrote: I know balance is mostly focused around 1v1, But they will really need to fix prox rax reaper/6 pool vs Protoss (or any race really) as its pretty much impossible to stop as protoss or help regardless if you know its coming. Blizz wants there to be 50% win rates across the board, right? Well, proxy reaper/6 pool has just as good of a chance of failing (thereby losing the game) as it does succeeding.. Proxy reaper is so easy to beat as protoss (usually); I wish every terran did it, I'd have an 80% win rate.
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In 1v1 setting either is fairly easy to stop, however in 2v2 combined I can assure after many many 2v2 games that its almost impossible to stop, and if you do your partner would of been most likely better off massing and going for the 2v1.
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Um... I think that Powering to 3 Sentries to block a ramp and destroy a natrual (Zerg or Terran) IS cheese because its intentionally racing for 1 unit to exploit an essentially non combat ability to trap someone in their base. IE my army will be smaller, but I can exploit this because he simply wont be able to reinforce his combat troops but I will.
This "2 gate" thing about people cheesing- I think that is a legitimate build. Especially if its in their base. Really, its not out of the realm of a descent build that you can transition out of. Proxy 2 gate is totally different of course, as is hiding pylons and powering to Warp Gates to make 90% of your army exclusively in their base. Nothing wrong with 2 gates in a base that is fairly easy for you to scout- even proxy should be suspected by something missing.
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Proxy 2-gates is the easiest cheese to execute imo. I've done it a few times out of boredom and it works really well if you're gates are in a nice spot.
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Mostly protoss, but that has something to do with the fact that 50-60% of my games are against protoss.
On May 17 2010 14:24 Delrake wrote: I know balance is mostly focused around 1v1, But they will really need to fix prox rax reaper/6 pool vs Protoss (or any race really) as its pretty much impossible to stop as protoss or help regardless if you know its coming.
I play 2v2 t/p, and we've won every single game we've been handed a proxy reaper/6 pool. I wall and go gas/rax/lab/reaper/marauder into fast upgraded hellions as a rule, and my partner goes 10 or 11 gate into fast stalkers if the other team is t/z.
He gets rushed, I build more marauders and get concussive shot instead of making reapers to harass and/or building a second factory immediately. My reaper + partner's probes usually eliminates the lings as a problem, and a few probes and/or my reaper can chase their reaper(s) until the stalker or my marauder comes out. Marauders ensure we don't have bunker trouble, and stalker or reaper can hunt the proxy. My partner's a little behind from a few probes killed, and my hellions are a little late, but we can both expo and use marauders/stalker to cover mineral lines since we know they can't bring another strong push soon, while hellions can handle lings if necessary. Bit later, my medivac drops upgraded hellions on one or both of them. GG.
I've never been the one rushed... well, one fail team sent the reaper to me and the lings to my partner, who ate them for lunch with a zealot. I killed the reaper with decent scv micro to stall while my reaper came out.
The only problem with this build (him early gate into fast stalker, me fast reaper into hellion) is that there is a timing window where an early roach/marauder all-in will probably win if we didn't scout the roach warren.
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When I was in silver I got 6 pooled all the time, but in gold I rarely see 1 base zergs nor reapers. However, there was a span where I got proxy gated inside my base on Steppes of War at least 5 times in a row. I guess it serves me right for banshee rushing all my TvPs till I got to high gold.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Definitions read and learn what cheese is and whats not...according to the posts 90% of what people believe are cheeses are just normal plays
but still i have to admit that protoss is the cheesiest race :D
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On May 17 2010 06:57 PatandPat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:31 cursor wrote: Protoss gets my vote. They are getting another abuse checklist being developed. [ ] Proxy Pylon / Warpgates [ ] Early/Proxy Void Rays [ ] Dark Templar rush [ ] ForceField ramp abuse FF ramp abuse is not cheese....
thats why its an abuse list, not cheese list
yea definitely protoss tho
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On May 17 2010 14:58 Iri wrote: Mostly protoss, but that has something to do with the fact that 50-60% of my games are against protoss.
I second this.
I also get reaper rushed in some form by about 2/3 of all Terran I face. I'd say that counts as cheese, but on a more minor level.
The poll is too ambiguous.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Get cheesed by everyone. Everyone seems to love stupid all in shit.
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cannon rush and proxy void rays +generic rushes
vs
planetary fortress +generic rushes
vs
wut 8 pool?
in terms of interesting shit going on toss wins it.
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I dont think toss cheeses too much, most of the tosses I meet go for standard 10 gate proxy.
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cheeze is relative, during the savior era doing 2 hatch openings was pretty much considered cheeze, but now it's a staple again as jaedong brought it back in style.
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imo; cheese = loser talk. if you lose to an early all in strategy, usually its your own mistake. econ build is a strategy as well as early all-ins which exploit that.
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Sure cheeses are strategies, they're just superlame strategies.
I'm in bronze, and I see protoss use cheese most often.
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Z - nothing but all-in's with speed- and banelings from 1 base...
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
protoss most cheese terran most mechanical (protoss least mechanical)
looks like some aspects of sc1 has carried over to sc2
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On May 17 2010 06:57 ymirheim wrote: Without a doubt protoss. TvP on scrap station has turned my scouting pattern into a Rorschach painting.
All I can ever see in Rorschach paintings are void rays! In fact doing nothing but producing a void ray asap and instantly sending it to the enemy base places you savely in mid gold already. Doesn't work against opponents who scout though^^
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On May 17 2010 14:01 johnnybrav0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:53 Madkipz wrote:On May 17 2010 09:48 Riot20 wrote: I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic. No they are not a tactic, what do you proxy star gates into Voidrays to counter? NOTHING ANYONE doing it usually end up admitting that it is done to get easy wins against poor players. These people who hide their tech, or go for TRICK plays that rely soledly on stealth to have success suck at playing standard. Why the heck would you not hide your DT tech? Seriously, DT's are worthless if the enemy knows they're coming.
not even close to being true
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Yea P cheeses the most its annoying. I play P and it drives me nuts, I try to take things easy but i almost nerdraged the other day, got 5 pvps in a row and all of them did the same: proxy 2 gate -> voidray. And cannonrushes are more common now after patch 12 than before! You check their match history and all games are less than 6 mins long. So sad...
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On May 17 2010 12:27 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:52 7mk wrote:On May 17 2010 09:24 ymirheim wrote:On May 17 2010 09:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: for p to be winning this pool seems like people strongly misuse the term cheese I think about 95% of games ive seen where cheese was used terran was the culprit.
I haven't seen proxy gates for two months and I haven't seen zerg cheese even once. Well I don't know about everyone elses reason but this is precisely why I voted protoss actually. Two gate proxy is ridiculously common imo, to the point where I probably play a toss who tries to set up gateways inside or just outside my base about five times for every time I play a terran who does a super fast reaper or other variation of proxy rax. Actually something like my last seven PvT on scrap station and desert oasis were against two gate proxy. shouldnt two gate proxy be pretty easy to hold off as terran? the thing is, drone probably plays like 50 times as many games as other people so his opinion really says a lot more than some gold players who play like 10 games a week. Ehm.. what?? Whether or not you can fend it off has nothing to do with the definition. I am perfectly capable of stopping 2gate proxy if I see it. If I see the toss set up that pylon I just chuckle and think "nice, 20 easy points". But it is still cheese. Which is what the question was.
Yes it is, I was just saying that it's such an easy cheese to hold of as T that you should be grateful for the auto win and makes me think that you must be in bronze or something because I cant see many platinum protosses doing that vs T.
On May 17 2010 12:30 Cham wrote: I would've thought it would be Protoss, but I get cheesed by Terran a lot more. One of my recent matches on Incineration Zone the T lifted right away and went to the gold, walled in and made a super quick MM army. I was quite surprised.
hahah yeah had that happen to me too, once on that map... never gonna happen again though :p
On May 17 2010 17:50 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 14:01 johnnybrav0 wrote:On May 17 2010 09:53 Madkipz wrote:On May 17 2010 09:48 Riot20 wrote: I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic. No they are not a tactic, what do you proxy star gates into Voidrays to counter? NOTHING ANYONE doing it usually end up admitting that it is done to get easy wins against poor players. These people who hide their tech, or go for TRICK plays that rely soledly on stealth to have success suck at playing standard. Why the heck would you not hide your DT tech? Seriously, DT's are worthless if the enemy knows they're coming. not even close to being true
Lol yeah, Ive played lots of games where I went DTs and they virtually didnt do any economic damage whatsoever because T set up turrets up in time and I still won those games with ease.
Just yesterday I was watching orb's stream where inka played against someone in that Lickitung tourney and he lost like 5 DTs and a warp prism that did nothing but kill a turret and he still won that game convincingly.
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Terrans proxy-reaper me all the time.. haven't learned to deal with that yet it comes so fast T_T
Zergs do mass ling/baneling into mutas alot. Maybe it's not cheese but sure as hell feels cheesy when I miserably die to it.
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There should be an extra option to the poll, namely "random". Every time I play a random player, I feel like there is a cheese incoming.
I get cheese quite a lot on ladder - speedling all-ins, 10/15 gates (I consider it cheese as it sets you way back if deflected), proxy reaper/bunker rushes. I'd say that that 2 out of 3 terrans I've played have gone fast reaper rush.
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I actually got congratulated by someone on my play once because he figured I would voidray rush like every other protoss. I didn't realize it was like this lol, I never cheese.
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On May 17 2010 20:22 extracheez wrote: I actually got congratulated by someone on my play once because he figured I would voidray rush like every other protoss. I didn't realize it was like this lol, I never cheese.
Again, void rays aren't cheese T_T
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Also chiming in that I was hoping for a random option. I've won many games playing much safer (even beyond the usual 'what race will I scout') and focusing on scouting constantly when I'm up against random players. It's always been better (BW, WC3) to expect random players to play non-standard imo.
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The fact that protoss is winning this poll by so much shows how many people know what cheese is....
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I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is...
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terran.
6/7rax bunker, banshee, tank drop (mal specific)
i see these much much more than i see any sort of proxy gate or early pool. Fast VR is common though
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On May 17 2010 20:31 Deep.inside wrote: I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is... You completely misunderstand the definition of cheese. Its not when an opponent does something you weren't expecting, you are completely wrong. Your examples of cloacked banshees and mutalisks, niether fall into the category of cheese. Cheese is a play that RELIES on not being scouted to even work in any form whatsoever. A proxy rush is cheese, because it will only work if not scouted, and if it is scouted, it will completely fail.
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On May 17 2010 20:37 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 20:31 Deep.inside wrote: I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is... You completely misunderstand the definition of cheese. Its not when an opponent does something you weren't expecting, you are completely wrong. Your examples of cloacked banshees and mutalisks, niether fall into the category of cheese. Cheese is a play that RELIES on not being scouted to even work in any form whatsoever. A proxy rush is cheese, because it will only work if not scouted, and if it is scouted, it will completely fail.
um, if you see quick cloaked banshees coming their effect is 10x less than if you don't.
so yes, it does rely on not being scouted, yes, it is cheese. saying otherwise is like saying quickest possible dt build in BW isn't cheese
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On May 17 2010 20:37 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 20:31 Deep.inside wrote: I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is... You completely misunderstand the definition of cheese. Its not when an opponent does something you weren't expecting, you are completely wrong. Your examples of cloacked banshees and mutalisks, niether fall into the category of cheese. Cheese is a play that RELIES on not being scouted to even work in any form whatsoever. A proxy rush is cheese, because it will only work if not scouted, and if it is scouted, it will completely fail.
I am fully aware of what cheese actually is, however after reading this thread it seems that theres only a few people who does, since they consider VR tech as cheese. Thats the reason I said: "After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese."
In my world proxy gate, 6 pool, proxy rax, bunker rush, cannon rush is all real cheese because if I counter it the opponent is screwed. And as you said that kind of play relies on not being scouted or countered. I never denied that, however even if its a cheap shot tactic I fail to see why everyone rushes to the forums poasting about their misery. I agree to that it sucks and is boring and whatever but as I said before, DEAL with it.
What really ticks me off is how most players who consider all that as cheese also likes to pile up a great lot of other things as cheese aswell. The reason is beyond me but I figure it has something to do with it being easier to blame the other player for cheese than accepting that "oh well...he went voidrays and I suck at scouting, or "oh well...he went cloaked banshees and my only observer is in the other base..."
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4 Gate 2 Gate + Void Ray rush 2 Gate + Robotics massing Immortal DT rush
That's pretty much Protoss for you.
Not saying it's cheese or anything...but it's so god damn boring and common I feel like I'm doing homework when I play Protoss.
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I like how this thread consists of two things. Truth, and crying tosses.
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On May 17 2010 21:10 Sieg wrote: 4 Gate 2 Gate + Void Ray rush 2 Gate + Robotics massing Immortal DT rush Proxy gates Cannon rush
That's pretty much Protoss for you.
Not saying it's cheese or anything...but it's so god damn boring and common I feel like I'm doing homework when I play Protoss. looks more like it
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On May 17 2010 20:35 faction123 wrote: terran.
6/7rax bunker, banshee, tank drop (mal specific)
i see these much much more than i see any sort of proxy gate or early pool. Fast VR is common though
haha, how are banshee and tank drops even remotely close to being cheese?
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How the fuck can you get cheesed by protoss? Cannon rush and proxy gates are the worst 2 rushes in the entire game. Maybe I'm doing something wrong (as T), but i've never had a problem with cheese, unless its a wide ramp and he 6 pooled or he's T and went proxy reaper.
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If you want to feel the true meaning of cheese try playing PvP. I hate this match so much. No real skill, everyone just want to cheese you.
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On May 17 2010 21:31 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 20:35 faction123 wrote: terran.
6/7rax bunker, banshee, tank drop (mal specific)
i see these much much more than i see any sort of proxy gate or early pool. Fast VR is common though haha, how are banshee and tank drops even remotely close to being cheese?
rushing straight to tank drop on LT/desert oasis (not a drop on DO more of a proxy) is gay whatever way you look at it
abusing map and if it doesn't work you're screwed
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On May 17 2010 21:44 faction123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 21:31 gillon wrote:On May 17 2010 20:35 faction123 wrote: terran.
6/7rax bunker, banshee, tank drop (mal specific)
i see these much much more than i see any sort of proxy gate or early pool. Fast VR is common though haha, how are banshee and tank drops even remotely close to being cheese? rushing straight to tank drop on LT/desert oasis (not a drop on DO more of a proxy) is gay whatever way you look at it abusing map and if it doesn't work you're screwed
Call it what you want, but by that definition there aren't that much that isn't cheese.
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where is the "i don't use lame shit strats" choice?
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On May 17 2010 18:52 7mk wrote: Yes it is, I was just saying that it's such an easy cheese to hold of as T that you should be grateful for the auto win and makes me think that you must be in bronze or something because I cant see many platinum protosses doing that vs T.
Wow, I wish I could learn to ride, I would also like a high horse like that. Maybe you ought to play more games against people between rank 50-20 in platinum then.
Again ofcourse I have not actually mentioned the number of players and games since the question was which race you get cheese from most compared to the others, not how many games you get cheese compared to standard games. Just because protoss is the race that I face cheese from more than the others does not mean that 90% of protoss games are cheese. More like 8%, but it is still higher compared to terran 4% and zerg 1%.
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On May 17 2010 21:57 sCuMBaG wrote: where is the "i don't use lame shit strats" choice?
this is not a thread about what you as a player do. It is a thread where you can slightly rage at what others have done towards you and voice what race does it more often.
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So, what other options than 6 pooling (to 10pool perhaps) does the zerg have as cheese option?
:')
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On May 17 2010 06:30 kNyTTyM wrote: For me it's protoss. I never see 6pool from zerg and haven't seen a 6rax reaper in ages. Proxy 2 gate in my base isn't all that uncommon though.
Because 6pool isn't viable unless the opponent is braindead. Zerg essentially has no cheese options at all. Any early cheese should be fended off without taking enough damage to even the game up.
Not to be confused with all-ins (blingbust).
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what would be interesting to do is to make 2 polls, 1 for europe and 1 for u s and a and we can see if it's a difference between the servers :3
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I just played the cheesiest game ever against a Terrain on Kulas Ravine. He started the game by lifting off and flying to high yield (I just thought he flew to high ground), he then proxied 3 reactor raxes on my high ground. After I repelled that he cloaked banshee rushed me. The problem was his cheese wasted so much time and resource I generally just out macroed him.
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On May 17 2010 06:57 PatandPat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:31 cursor wrote: Protoss gets my vote. They are getting another abuse checklist being developed. [ ] Proxy Pylon / Warpgates [ ] Early/Proxy Void Rays [ ] Dark Templar rush [ ] ForceField ramp abuse FF ramp abuse is not cheese....
it is if you decide to go all in 1 base push, ( if you zerg. and couple of maps are just not playable in mid/late game , like incineration zone, and then your push gets stoped by 3 sentries.. trust me thats nothing but a cheese, )
and no i stopped playing all ins, or incineration zone
doesnt change the fact that 5x army can be stoped by couple ffs
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Ahhh abusive protoss since 1998, and the way it looks for another 12 years to come. Thx blizz! :D
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On May 21 2010 21:51 Smikis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:57 PatandPat wrote:On May 17 2010 06:31 cursor wrote: Protoss gets my vote. They are getting another abuse checklist being developed. [ ] Proxy Pylon / Warpgates [ ] Early/Proxy Void Rays [ ] Dark Templar rush [ ] ForceField ramp abuse FF ramp abuse is not cheese.... it is if you decide to go all in 1 base push, ( if you zerg. and couple of maps are just not playable in mid/late game , like incineration zone, and then your push gets stoped by 3 sentries.. trust me thats nothing but a cheese, ) and no i stopped playing all ins, or incineration zone doesnt change the fact that 5x army can be stoped by couple ffs You call that a cheese?
You mean like, every time someone blocks your attack by countering your unit composition its a cheese? The person using sentries is taking advantage of a game mechanic and is able to get an advantage in a situation where he would otherwise run a high chance of losing. You can debate all you want if you consider it to be overpowered but cheese? really..
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