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After another odd day of playing Zerg, I thought about how it was like playing the other races. Whenever I watch my replays of me losing, I always notice that I put a considerable amount of effort into my game, whereas my opponent only puts in a fraction of my effort to win. Although I do understand this is a strategy game where using your head counts, I don't like how I'm losing to things that don't take much brain power to do. So I thought to myself, if I put the same amount of effort into another race that has these early-mid game pushes that don't take much effort to execute how will I do? Do you guys get these thoughts too? When you look at your replay and you say to yourself, "Hey I can do that too but better."
After playing for a while my APM has hit a solid 170 average, in every game. It wouldn't be any lower or high, there would only be like a 5 Average APM between each game. So that means I've played to the point where I play Zerg completely non-spam throughout the majority of the game, doing what I need to get done, and having good mechanics in general. So when I watch myself lose a 4gate because my timing of my spinecrawlers were off by literally 4 - 5 Seconds (I mean literally the Toss army would be at my doorstep seconds away from my defense from being fully set up) I /facepalm. Because I know for a fact that if I defend the push I will steamroll my opponent because most Toss players play with their 70 APM, which is understandably quite enough for their 4gate push, but going into the late-game they can't manage 4 bases nearly as efficiently as I can. But of course a loss is a loss. I lose because I make the wrong decisions, not because of some error in my micro or macro. If I'm making the wrong decisions as a Zerg player, does that mean I have the wrong mindset for playing Zerg? After playing so many games and seeing little improvement in my decision making am I just not cut out to be a Zerg overmind?
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On August 17 2010 23:04 JarL wrote: Why do people always perceive that they are putting in more effort to their race? Yes that is 100% rhetorical, but I find your opening statement extremely ignorant. APM is not a solid gauge of "effort". All three races are easy, mastering them is the point that you seem to be missing.
APM is obviously not a 100% gauge of effort, but it should have some merit if any. If I'm managing my units and my bases better than the other opponent shouldn't that mean something?
I was really prepared for the these kinds of replies, because we're using the word "APM" here to differentiate skill, but let's not turn this into an APM debate please.
Here, I explained that I was more mechanically skilled than my opponent, yet still loss to because of bad decision making. So technically if I fixed my decision making I'd be able to come out on top. I made this topic because over the course of many many games, I have seen very little improvement in my decision making, so maybe I should be playing a different with decisions more suited for me.
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I played Protoss for little bit when I got frustrated of Zerg one day.
It was my first time playing Protoss and I found it extremely easy to play the race. I mean, seriously, I'm not exaggerating one little bit. The only build I knew was the 1 gate 1 core and then 2 more gates for a 3gate push while I expanded. After the push if they survived I simply tech'd to a better unit composition and won the game. I had very little trouble beating other players while I tried so hard while playing Zerg. Wtf is this.
Earlier in some threads it was mentioned that some races suit people better than others. I was always a Zerg player, if I had so much successful and ease playing Protoss a few times does that mean Protoss was the real race for me? Looking over all my replays it was quite clear that my unit control and base management was far greater than the other player ( I've gone something like 12 - 2 in my ZvZs) but I would always make one bad mistake, a bad engagement that would cost me the game. When I carry that kind mechanical skill over to another race like Protoss, the results were quite clear, I did significantly better with less effort.
I mean seriously while playing Zerg I was always on my toes, constantly scouting, and looking for ways to punish the enemy. For Protoss I was like, alright I do my standard build, send in a scout, push, expand, adapt, scout, and kill. I could say the same for playing Zerg, but it was a lot smoother and simpler when I had that mindset playing Protoss.
So is this an issue of Zerg just requiring more effort to play? Or was I never meant to be the awesome Zerg player I always dreamed to be? I played Zerg since BW.. I still remember all the Practice games I did with my B- Terran friend, even though I was like 0 - 30 in those games... I really loved playing Zerg and learning its mechanics.
Note: I'm sorry if this post sounds like a rant about Zerg being weak or whatever that's all about, it's more of a post out of frustration of seeing myself lose to the same things over and over although I try to prepare myself for it. Please do discuss your own experiences with different races.
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Why do people always perceive that they are putting in more effort to their race? Yes that is 100% rhetorical, but I find your opening statement extremely ignorant. APM is not a solid gauge of "effort". All three races are easy, mastering them is the point that you seem to be missing.
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APM is not a measure of skill. If you have 170 APM and the Protoss has 70, but he has a strategy that does well against yours and still does everything he needs to, you will lose more likely than not.
70 APM is more than enough to keep up 4-base. Worker production (and pylons to make them) takes up 5 APM per Nexus, that's a total of 20 APM for 4-base. That leaves 50 APM for making units and the requires pylons and peoples' APM spikes up when it's necessary. It's not constant.
That said, if you're starting to experience silly losses, you're probably doing something right. If you're off by 4-5 seconds on your defenses, that doesn't mean you're doing badly, it means you're doing very well. If you fix that, and pull off a win against a 4-gate every single time, you are obviously playing well. Don't think that one mistake means your strategy is bad, just try the same thing again and perform that bit better.
The trick to winning as Zerg is to eek out every single drone you can and to barely defend a push from an opposing player, before swarming in with your own units because you have such an economic lead. Those losses where you have barely too little or barely too late defenses show that you're a good player (and much better than I am, probably), and things are working nearly perfectly.
The strategy you're using as Protoss is very simple. Are you playing against sufficiently skilled opponents? Don't forget that Protoss has different problem points than Zerg, and you can't find the fine details with just a few matches, you really do need to play more. Once you know just what can go wrong and where, you start worrying the same way you do as Zerg.
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Play the other races and see what happens. But I agree with the poster above me
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On August 17 2010 23:04 JarL wrote: Why do people always perceive that they are putting in more effort to their race? Yes that is 100% rhetorical, but I find your opening statement extremely ignorant. APM is not a solid gauge of "effort". All three races are easy, mastering them is the point that you seem to be missing.
APM is obviously not a 100% gauge of effort, but it should have some merit if any. If I'm managing my units and my bases better than the other opponent shouldn't that mean something?
I was really prepared for the these kinds of replies, because we're using the word "APM" here to differentiate skill, but let's not turn this into an APM debate please.
In my opening statement, I explained that I was more mechanically skilled than my opponent, yet still loss to because of bad decision making. So technically if I fixed my decision making I'd be able to come out on top. I made this topic because over the course of many many games, I have seen very little improvement in my decision making, so maybe I should be playing a different with decisions more suited for me.
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If every person wondered the same question you do after losing due to bad decision making, then everyone would be playing the "wrong race" no matter what race it is.
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On August 17 2010 23:13 Snuggles wrote:In my opening statement, I explained that I was more mechanically skilled than my opponent, yet still loss to because of bad decision making. So technically if I fixed my decision making I'd be able to come out on top. I made this topic because over the course of many many games, I have seen very little improvement in my decision making, so maybe I should be playing a different with decisions more suited for me.
You are more mechanically skilled because you spam buttons? Your logic is profoundly, illogical. Until there is a way to measure effective APM (eAPM) then your argument is entirely moot.
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Intresting post. When i used to play the beta i felt exactly the same when losing as protoss to a T or Z. It never felt as anybody were putting any effort into the games while im sweating my ass off trying to fiend off the enemy. The balance of the game might, or might not be good now. To be honest its impossible to know after just 3 weeks of playtime. Nobody has mastered the game and posts made in that manner (unlike yours) are usually junk posts by players with an oversized ego/selfconfidence that basically claims to have explored all strategies which they ofcourse haven't and that "X Y Z" changes should be made. Also, these players almost always proposes changes that benefit their own race. Balance is a delicate matter and people have really forgotten how Starcraft was when it was released. I would say that the game was near perfect balance at 1.05 (Released in 1999) and was perfected at 1.08 (released in 2001). If my memory serves me right it was 1 ½ year between those two patches and an expansion. And thats basically my point. What this game needs for near perfect balance cant be done with patches alone and it cant be done now. It needs loads of playtime and an expansion to solve some of the different issues the races have. Hopefully the first expansion comes within 4-5 months from now.
So basically until then do what i do, and what the above poster suggests, play random. Random is the most satisfying "race" pick this game has to offer now. You never have to worry about balance, you can experiment versus all races, you know what works and what doesn't at your level of play and you will most likely not be depending on replays for your own strategy evolution. When you play all races you learn what works and not the hard way, by trail and error. After 200-300 games of random, and tasting every MU several times you will find your true favourite race. I played 500 games of Protoss in the beta during 3 weeks in phase 1. Ive played 80-90 games since retail as random. I already know that i should have picked Zerg, not P.
EDIT - Obviously people posted when i was writing :D I mean do what that guy suggested, play all the races.
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On August 17 2010 23:36 JarL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 23:13 Snuggles wrote:In my opening statement, I explained that I was more mechanically skilled than my opponent, yet still loss to because of bad decision making. So technically if I fixed my decision making I'd be able to come out on top. I made this topic because over the course of many many games, I have seen very little improvement in my decision making, so maybe I should be playing a different with decisions more suited for me. You are more mechanically skilled because you spam buttons? Your logic is profoundly, illogical. Until there is a way to measure effective APM (eAPM) then your argument is entirely moot.
It is not spam, please trust me on this one. If it was spam, than my hands would be hurting and my APM would be easily 200+. I specifically practiced to not spam in my games, so its hurts my feelings when you call me a spamming idiot. When I say I am more mechanically skilled, I will only say it when it is VERY clear that I am performing better than my opponent, because I don't want to come off as an egotistical idiot as you might be interpreting me as. So basically, rather than just hitting more buttons, I hit the more efficient ones, and I just happen to hit them faster than you would like.
You're drilling APM too hard here, please stop because this is not what this topic as about. Anyway, on a better note I'm quite satisfied with this topic now since I read this reply
+ Show Spoiler +On August 17 2010 23:09 exnomendei wrote: APM is not a measure of skill. If you have 170 APM and the Protoss has 70, but he has a strategy that does well against yours and still does everything he needs to, you will lose more likely than not.
70 APM is more than enough to keep up 4-base. Worker production (and pylons to make them) takes up 5 APM per Nexus, that's a total of 20 APM for 4-base. That leaves 50 APM for making units and the requires pylons and peoples' APM spikes up when it's necessary. It's not constant.
That said, if you're starting to experience silly losses, you're probably doing something right. If you're off by 4-5 seconds on your defenses, that doesn't mean you're doing badly, it means you're doing very well. If you fix that, and pull off a win against a 4-gate every single time, you are obviously playing well. Don't think that one mistake means your strategy is bad, just try the same thing again and perform that bit better.
The trick to winning as Zerg is to eek out every single drone you can and to barely defend a push from an opposing player, before swarming in with your own units because you have such an economic lead. Those losses where you have barely too little or barely too late defenses show that you're a good player (and much better than I am, probably), and things are working nearly perfectly.
The strategy you're using as Protoss is very simple. Are you playing against sufficiently skilled opponents? Don't forget that Protoss has different problem points than Zerg, and you can't find the fine details with just a few matches, you really do need to play more. Once you know just what can go wrong and where, you start worrying the same way you do as Zerg.
I hate posting threads because there always people like JarL looking to give nonconstructive criticism, but when people exnomendei come around it all worth it. Thank you.
I think all the losing has been getting to my head, and I forget how close my games actually are. So that post definitely gave me some confidence.
But I still find playing Protoss, laughably easy though =P I play the same opponents on my ladder too since I don't have any other accounts. I'm trying to tell myself it's all the same, but apparently I'll need some help.
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Only zerg players feel like they picked the wrong race.
That feeling comes from playing an inferior race that has been nerfed into the ground.
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apm doesnt mean better management.. it just means faster management..
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I completely understand what snuggles is saying.
I'm a protoss player myself and I really tried to play zerg a few times but oh my god it's like playing a completely different game. I'm like mid-diamond protoss and I wouldn't be surprised if I was silver or gold with zerg. I can't do anything, I have like 1k minerals by 5minutes into the game, I can't hold off any pushes, I can't do anything.
It probably is partly because I know absolutely no zerg build orders, but that didn't stop me when I started as protoss. It took me only about 5 games to get a basic build order as protoss. Gate, gas, cyber, gate, robo or something, very intuitive and keeps resources low. To work out a build order as zerg is... a complete nightmare.
With protoss and terran it's pretty much "spam probes, use all buildings. If I have enough for a new building while doing all that, build it", with zerg you have to balance units and drones. You have to know when to build what, you have to have really good knowledge of opponent's build orders (so you know when you have to stop making drones).
I'm not saying zerg are underpowered, none of this matters at all at higher levels (which is where balance counts). It just seems like zerg are a lot harder to learn.
edit: Oh also, I have like 70-100 apm and manage 4-bases fine. Remember APM in starcraft 2 is actions per (game time) minute, so 70apm is like 100 real time apm.
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If I remember correctly, Protoss has been called "EZ MoDe" since broodwar.
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On August 17 2010 23:58 mesohawny wrote: Only zerg players feel like they picked the wrong race.
That feeling comes from playing an inferior race that has been nerfed into the ground.
IdrA would like to have a word with you.
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Yes, I have had many times in the past week where I have felt like I've picked the wrong race.
I've been maining Terran for 9 years now; Ever since I was 13 years old. I chose Terran when I first started playing competitively and following the pro scene nearly 4 years ago. I started playing Terran when I got into the beta from the first wave of friend invites during a time when Terran were considered the the weakest race. I regularly made it to the top 10 to 20 players of whatever platinum league division I was in after each reset.
Now, since I picked the wrong race, I am no longer good at the game. I am terrible.. The only reason I win is because I play Terran. All of my opponents put in 100x more effort than me and I still steamroll them. What sort of respect I ever got for winning a match was stripped away by something I had no control over..
I had chosen the wrong race...
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For the love of God, Jaedong of SC2 please stand up already so people stop crying.
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Yes you've found out that playing protoss on a low level where people don't know squat about timings and counter timings is easier than playing zerg at that level. I hope you get up to the higher levels when zerg has one standard build that they hardly need to adjust to counter all of the protoss builds. Also I would like to see a top player 3 gate and expand behind that without being totally run over by hydra/ling.
The only 3 gate that works as a good build vs zerg is the one that TT1 likes to do. It's a very aggressive early 3 gate with unit cuts in the beginning and it's definately not a build where you just expand after the initial pressure. You need to deal significant damage with the push and then you can think about expanding.
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You know as a zerg player, I have been pretty emo about ZvT(it super fun, but it feels like uphill battle majority of the game) but yesterday I had a rage T players that made me feel good;
I guess the point from all this is, everyone seem to feel they have it worst than the next guy.
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Everyone seems to have misunderstood this thread...
Note: I'm sorry if this post sounds like a rant about Zerg being weak or whatever that's all about, it's more of a post out of frustration of seeing myself lose to the same things over and over although I try to prepare myself for it. Please do discuss your own experiences with different races.
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On August 18 2010 00:10 RancidTurnip wrote: Now, since I picked the wrong race, I am no longer good at the game. I am terrible.. The only reason I win is because I play Terran. All of my opponents put in 100x more effort than me and I still steamroll them. What sort of respect I ever got for winning a match was stripped away by something I had no control over..
I had chosen the wrong race...
That sucks man, sorry to hear it. I feel bad for all Terrans too because they don't always get the respect they deserve.
=P Don't forget that Zerg players too don't get any creditability either when we try to make a valid discussion since everyone sees us as cry babies.
But yeah DoubleU winning as Zerg feels so gratifying. I find that a lot of Terrans and Protoss players come off as very egotistical and show a lot contempt for the other player. I'd imagine you'd hear a lot of rage if you played as a Protoss or a Terran, but if you play Zerg and win the other guy has no choice but to admit defeat- it's awesome. Plus if they do rage like that despite it being ZvT it's just hilarious.
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