|
On Weapon of Choice ep9, djWheat and Chill called MorroW to interview him about his IEM win.
http://djwheat.blip.tv/file/4038016/
I won't go over everything, but basically dimaga helped MorroW prepare for Idra by showing him the reaper build he used. MorroW also goes into his past with Idra, interesting stuff. He calls him at around 7:30 but the whole show was really good, you should check it out. Pretty crazy considering what dimaga has had to say recently.
|
I found that extremely interesting. This definitely deserves a thread.
So MorroW went in to the tournament preferring to go FE against Zerg but quickly learned the strength of reaper openings when watching DeMuslim and others play.
DIMAGA then educates MorroW in the fine arts of the reaper so that he can prove to the world how imbalanced the strategy is.
But what isn't clear in the interview is if DIMAGA helped MorroW out at an early stage (even before the semifinals) or in preparation for the game against Idra?
EDIT: Probably was in preparation for the finals as MorroW mentions how he stayed at the venue to practice after the semifinals while everyone else were of partying But MorroW did use reapers to good effect against DIMAGA... there are holes to fill in this story.
|
he even says that the reaper build is imba and should be nerfed soon. good interview and another good WoC. Pretty amazing he learned that build last minute and used it pretty well (unless I misunderstood and dimaga showed him that build well in advance of the lan)
|
Thanks for posting this, listening now.
|
Does that mean that Dimaga could have lost to morrow on purpose (doubt it). I think they played in the semi finals???
|
oh shit, forgot about Weapon of Choice... thanks for the post!
|
as far as i understood the whole story dimaga practiced with him the night after their match
|
On August 23 2010 11:02 Mouth wrote: he even says that the reaper build is imba and should be nerfed soon. good interview and another good WoC. Pretty amazing he learned that build last minute and used it pretty well (unless I misunderstood and dimaga showed him that build well in advance of the lan)
OR the reaper opening is extremely easy to learn as you only need to learn the basic BO and then remember to make scvs and learn how to reaper micro. On top of that you get taught the build by very impressive T and Z players who have practiced with each other so much on mTw that they have learned the build inside out. Seems fairly ezpz, not impressive to me.
|
I'm just curious to see what the fix will be. Think they'll scrap reapers all together? Or simply remove the speed upgrade / nerf their nade spam?
|
lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame.
|
Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other.
|
Thanks for this. Watching now.
|
On August 23 2010 11:11 GhoSt[shield] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:02 Mouth wrote: he even says that the reaper build is imba and should be nerfed soon. good interview and another good WoC. Pretty amazing he learned that build last minute and used it pretty well (unless I misunderstood and dimaga showed him that build well in advance of the lan) OR the reaper opening is extremely easy to learn as you only need to learn the basic BO and then remember to make scvs and learn how to reaper micro. On top of that you get taught the build by very impressive T and Z players who have practiced with each other so much on mTw that they have learned the build inside out. Seems fairly ezpz, not impressive to me.
I agree the strat seems a bit easy. Against most zerg its going to own them straight up. Players like IdrA and Dimaga are sooooo skilled yet can only stop it "IF" the Terran player makes a few mistakes and they play it perfectly. It really is very clear that reapers are imbalanced in TvZ.
|
On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote: lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame.
It may be for amateurs like you and me, but in a professional competition it's within fairplay and code of conduct, this is the same as any sport, and I think we want to consider e-sports also a part of sports.
|
How to fix reaper abuse ? not a big change cuz i think its not imba as that (im z) 2 pop or a little less speed should be fine The problem is that with a decent amount 6-12+ and the good map (cliff) they cannot be beat by zergling speed and roach cant follow them off creep so terran can have easy map control early/mid game and full time harass.
|
On August 23 2010 11:21 elderbre wrote: It may be for amateurs like you and me, but in a professional competition it's within fairplay and code of conduct, this is the same as any sport, and I think we want to consider e-sports also a part of sports. It should only be GG if you felt it was a GG, saying GG when you felt the game was bad is rather false and unnecessary imo.
I mean does it really hurt a player if his opponent doesn't GG? he probably won't or at least shouldn't care since he's won anyway.
edit: sorry for slight off topic, i'll shuttup about it now
|
On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other.
so do colossus and high templar, but they also have many differences.
|
I expect all the people saying how easy was the build morrow was doing to go and own zergs in every tournament.
Oh wait, that's not gonna happen .
|
On August 23 2010 11:28 L0thar wrote:I expect all the people saying how easy was the build morrow was doing to go and own zergs in every tournament. Oh wait, that's not gonna happen .
I just want to clarify when i said the strat is easy i mean that its easy for top tier terrans such as Morrow. In no way am i saying anyone can do it. Full props to Morrow, he played extremely well and beat IdrA within the bounds of the game. Either Blizzard will make a change or someone will come up with something more solid to beat 5 rax reapers as zerg.
|
get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining.
|
Nice to see you can win a $15k prizepool tournament without even having practiced the opening build you're executing for more than a day (If I understood this correctly). Kudos to morrow!
|
On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. they get countered by more reapers :D
|
On August 23 2010 11:35 Onlinejaguar wrote: I just want to clarify when i said the strat is easy i mean that its easy for top tier terrans such as Morrow. In no way am i saying anyone can do it. Full props to Morrow, he played extremely well and beat IdrA within the bounds of the game. Either Blizzard will make a change or someone will come up with something more solid to beat 5 rax reapers as zerg.
I agree, obviously MorroW knew how to do a 5 rax and use reapers, I think dimaga just helped him tool it right with his zerg knowledge. Plus you need to micro well with it or they can go down easy. When I was watching the finals I was a bit upset to see these rushes, as I would have liked for the games to last longer (for my enjoyment as a viewer) but MorroW played well. He wanted to win and knew he didn't want to let Idra get in his comfort zone. Like you said, he's playing within the bounds of the game and how can a top level player draw the line at something being over powered. "Well I could have won but I didn't want to use this strat because it worked sooo well." That's ridiculous.
|
On August 23 2010 11:21 elderbre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote: lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame. It may be for amateurs like you and me, but in a professional competition it's within fairplay and code of conduct, this is the same as any sport, and I think we want to consider e-sports also a part of sports.
Oh come on, you can't be serious. Idra got cheesed - it's one thing to say that he shouldn't insult the other player, but you can't expect him to say "good game".
In other sports, its common place to shake hands after a game. If my opponent plays dirty (but still within the rules), I'm not shaking their hand. This is not a "Code of conduct issue"...
|
Morrow says his build is imba ... That's what's interesting? Everyone knows that.
|
On August 23 2010 11:38 PokePill wrote: Nice to see you can win a $15k prizepool tournament without even having practiced the opening build you're executing for more than a day (If I understood this correctly). Kudos to morrow!
this x100. Congrats to Morrow, but seriously, learning reaper night before a tourney. I don't know whether to be extremely impressed by Morrow or seriously disturbed at how hard it is for zerg to counter this.
|
In many situations when people don't shake hands and just leave the media makes a huge deal out of it (I remember it happening a few times in football or something). Not unique to Starcraft really.
|
On August 23 2010 12:01 Redmark wrote: In many situations when people don't shake hands and just leave the media makes a huge deal out of it (I remember it happening a few times in football or something). Not unique to Starcraft really. Shaking hands is different to GG, GG means good game, shaking hands does not mean GG or anything like it.
|
Really fantastic episode of Weapon of Choice. As for the interview, morrow seems really shy to come out and say "yeah, it's a little too strong of a build". I wish he'd just come out and say it.
|
On August 23 2010 11:58 Fraud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:21 elderbre wrote:On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote: lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame. It may be for amateurs like you and me, but in a professional competition it's within fairplay and code of conduct, this is the same as any sport, and I think we want to consider e-sports also a part of sports. Oh come on, you can't be serious. Idra got cheesed - it's one thing to say that he shouldn't insult the other player, but you can't expect him to say "good game". In other sports, its common place to shake hands after a game. If my opponent plays dirty (but still within the rules), I'm not shaking their hand. This is not a "Code of conduct issue"...
If you listen to the interview, the "no gg" that pissed Morrow off was in a practice game, which IdrA WON.
|
-Response to morrow. i was mad that you beat idra, arrrrgh but congrats and you seem like a chill guy -Response to Apollo complaints. meh. he got better throughout the event and had a bunch of insight that i dont think any other commentator really could have brought up. -Response to ProdiG. hey, i like your maps and am probably going to start up again. the only map i dislike is starchild, i dont know why but it feels very awkward for zerg. the other maps that ive played are solid though.
|
On August 23 2010 11:26 MisterPuppy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. so do colossus and high templar, but they also have many differences.
mmhmm just like roaches and lurkers...o wait.
|
On August 23 2010 12:26 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:26 MisterPuppy wrote:On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. so do colossus and high templar, but they also have many differences. mmhmm just like roaches and lurkers...o wait. I believe it was lurkers and banelings.
|
On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. Theirs so many other examples to prove you wrong but its not even worth it.
|
the reaper play is extremely easy to pull off... hope to see someone find a way to deal with it better or some kind of change around it next patch
|
On August 23 2010 12:47 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 12:26 bendez wrote:On August 23 2010 11:26 MisterPuppy wrote:On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. so do colossus and high templar, but they also have many differences. mmhmm just like roaches and lurkers...o wait. I believe it was lurkers and banelings.
I would love to see the QQ if they brought back lurkers. Although, maybe not. Since reapers or a good 2 gate build screws us over before lurkers would even take the stage.
|
If blizz does decide to nerf this build...what would they do? Make reapers 2 food? If you reduce the speed or reduce the damage,it will kill the essence of the reaper. Maybe making them 2 food will reduce the speed at which they reach critical mass, which is what seems to be the problem.
The find of the tourney was Dimaga for me,loved the way he played.
Congos to MorroW,he did play well,despite what you think of the finals.
|
On August 23 2010 12:51 dartoo wrote: If blizz does decide to nerf this build...what would they do? Make reapers 2 food? If you reduce the speed or reduce the damage,it will kill the essence of the reaper. Maybe making them 2 food will reduce the speed at which they reach critical mass, which is what seems to be the problem.
The find of the tourney was Dimaga for me,loved the way he played.
Congos to MorroW,he did play well,despite what you think of the finals.
I think changing them to 75 minerals will help to stop the ability of terran gaining such an eco lead. I still don't know if it is IMBA but im pretty sure terrans will be doing this to zergs on the ladder now so some new strats might evolve.
|
On August 23 2010 11:11 GhoSt[shield] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:02 Mouth wrote: he even says that the reaper build is imba and should be nerfed soon. good interview and another good WoC. Pretty amazing he learned that build last minute and used it pretty well (unless I misunderstood and dimaga showed him that build well in advance of the lan) OR the reaper opening is extremely easy to learn as you only need to learn the basic BO and then remember to make scvs and learn how to reaper micro. On top of that you get taught the build by very impressive T and Z players who have practiced with each other so much on mTw that they have learned the build inside out. Seems fairly ezpz, not impressive to me.
I'd like to see you try it against Idra.
|
@WCH Yeah that might work quite well too. Lol,almost everyone is going to be doing this on the ladder. I remember when HD posted his worker rush video,I went through 8-9 games with people scv rushing,and were shocked when it failed.
Wonder if a terrans in korea have done this strat against zergs...
|
On August 23 2010 13:00 dartoo wrote: @WCH Yeah that might work quite well too. Lol,almost everyone is going to be doing this on the ladder. I remember when HD posted his worker rush video,I went through 8-9 games with people scv rushing,and were shocked when it failed.
Wonder if a terrans in korea have done this strat against zergs...
all types of reaper openings can be seen in korea. most of these "innovative" strats originate on the asian servers
|
On August 23 2010 13:00 dartoo wrote: @WCH Yeah that might work quite well too. Lol,almost everyone is going to be doing this on the ladder. I remember when HD posted his worker rush video,I went through 8-9 games with people scv rushing,and were shocked when it failed.
Wonder if a terrans in korea have done this strat against zergs...
you have no idea how aggressive korean terrans are..?
|
On August 23 2010 12:50 SC2Phoenix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. Theirs so many other examples to prove you wrong but its not even worth it. Actually, there's no way to prove my example wrong since I said they serve overlapping roles. That doesn't mean they serve identical roles. I should have clarified - safe to yank the Reaper and let the Hellion serve its role. More balanced time on harassment and no cliff gimmicks.
I'm sure every T in the forum will disagree however...
|
IMO this Reaper's build is really an intricate thing. Perhaps it's really hard to stop especially in high level of play, but if it will be nerfed, then the question is how?
If Reaper is off the equation against Z then then early game T will be left only with Hellion which is not that hard to counter IMO. And macro wise, if T can not stop Z from expanding then it's GG for T.
Well, I'm not a high level player so I don't have a good understanding of the game yet :D So I don't know. Currently I'm as Terran player really struggling against Zerg :D
Well, grats for Morrow anyway, although I would love to see Zerg won that
|
Dimaga #1 Terran in Europe. ^^
|
@sk:There is a certain degree of overlap, but best of luck trying to take down a pylon with 3 hellions,and retreating fast.
@Rlag,:Most of the replays I watch are from EU/NA. If they are so aggressive then the korean zergs are doing something zergs arent doing here.
|
you don't need to gg at a lan event if you just go and shake hands after. it doesn't make much sense to say gg at all in game at a lan.
|
if this turns out to be imbalanced maybe a good nerf would be the range of the reaper building attack
|
Let them remove the D8 charges and replace them with researchable mines
|
thanks for the spoiler
|
On August 23 2010 11:18 Onlinejaguar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:11 GhoSt[shield] wrote:On August 23 2010 11:02 Mouth wrote: he even says that the reaper build is imba and should be nerfed soon. good interview and another good WoC. Pretty amazing he learned that build last minute and used it pretty well (unless I misunderstood and dimaga showed him that build well in advance of the lan) OR the reaper opening is extremely easy to learn as you only need to learn the basic BO and then remember to make scvs and learn how to reaper micro. On top of that you get taught the build by very impressive T and Z players who have practiced with each other so much on mTw that they have learned the build inside out. Seems fairly ezpz, not impressive to me. I agree the strat seems a bit easy. Against most zerg its going to own them straight up. Players like IdrA and Dimaga are sooooo skilled yet can only stop it "IF" the Terran player makes a few mistakes and they play it perfectly. It really is very clear that reapers are imbalanced in TvZ.
In other words:
To beat a skilled Zerg player such as Idra in a tournament such as this requires an ability that 99% of Terrans don't have. Morrow deserves credit and a ton of it.
In addition, Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
Let's see how this Reaper harass works for everybody in the weeks to come, because we all know it'll be abused from this point forward. I'd invite anybody here to tell me if they are Terran and if they can just simply ROLL fantastic Zergs because of how "easy" it is with Reapers.
|
Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
|
On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
just wait for the patch when reapers are nerfed
|
On August 23 2010 14:24 zalu wrote: ...Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
It's obvious that the 5 rax reaper build, in conjunction with all the other openings Terran has is imbalanced. Morrow knows this, and freely admits it, there isn't any issue though. As mentioned, he's a top tier player who was playing for thousands of dollars in the first major tourney for SC2, and he took idrA, who is arguably the best SC2 player right now; people complaining about him "cheesing" are being rediculous, it's not Morrow's responsibility to balance the game.
To clarify, the problem with 5 rax reaper is that it transitions into a bio/mech expansion build so easily. Zerg has nothing like this. 6 pool is about as strong as 5 rax reaper in terms of agression, but it's truly all in, and fast roach isn't viable at the pro level. Basically Terran can go fast mass helions -> delayed expansion mech, 5 Rax Reaper -> expansion bio/mech, MM -> fast expand bio/mech (also a fast expand Mech timing push is insanely strong as well, though it's unlike the previous BOs as it doesn't put heavy pressure on the opponent). Zerg's only opening that puts a similar level of opening pressure on Terran is 6 pool, which is a true do or die all in; that's where the problem lies. Once you get to mid game the MU seems balanced, but the early game needs some tweaking.
|
On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
..... jesus dude the whole reason idra lost was because of the reapers. game 4 idra lost because he thought it was going to be reapers. that would have been stopped dead in its tracks if idra knew 2 or 3 minutes before hand. even morrow himself says that build is imbalanced.
|
On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
Excellent points, and yes idrA wasn't playing his A game. In many ways it looked like he wanted to loose, his GG in game 1 was very premature, we've all seen games turn around from where idrA was.
I still contend that the transition from 5 rax reaper into an expanding biomech build is too easy though, if you put that much pressure on your opponent it just seems like you should take a bigger econ hit then the Terran takes from the build.
|
On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga.
zerg is not the race that requires the least micro skill. you can tell the difference in a fight vs. bio between dimaga's baneling use and idras. dimaga would kill the entire bio ball, and have like 5 banelings and 15 lings, and idra would lose with like 5 marauders left over.
what do you mean Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals? why is helping another player shameful?
but yes, a poor player will have no ability to continuously pressure a zerg, while also getting up the expo, and not losing reapers, and being able to stop the zerg from pushing back. besides, since zergs have been able to stop mech as of late, it's still way too early to say that it's imbalanced, but zerg don't have a proper response yet.
|
MorroW's reapers probably aren't imbalanced. Like others pointed out, the reapers really only did serious damage to IdrA in one of the three games. Granted, in the blistering sands game, it caused IdrA's macro to slip, but if IdrA had a little more APM, then that wouldn't have happened.
But, I think people can get quite a bit better at microing reapers than that. Like, oGs.Ensnare's reaper control makes it look really imbalanced.
|
On August 23 2010 14:24 zalu wrote: In other words:
To beat a skilled Zerg player such as Idra in a tournament such as this requires an ability that 99% of Terrans don't have. Morrow deserves credit and a ton of it.
In addition, Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
There has been no balance changes since Phase 2 of the Beta began. Yet, in that time there is more and more concern that Terran is overpowered. What is going on?
Reapers are a microcosm of what is going on. When the beta began, reapers were considered "horrible" and people called for reapers to be removed from the game because no one uses them. Now, they are 'overpowered'.
As players get more comfortable with the units and races, micro skill is improving. Terran units reward micro play such as reapers (as well as stimming infantry, banshees, siege tanks and other units). Protoss units don't really have that high need of micro (with the exception of high templars and stalkers). You cannot do that much with a zealot or an immortal. With Zerg, there is less need for micro. Aside from zerglings and mutalisks, there is very little to micro. Ultralisks, hyralisks, and roaches somewhat are essentially attack move.
The fix to the 'imbalance' issues is to give races, especially the zerg, some micro intensive units or abilities. Since Terran has all the micro intensive units, it is no wonder why their units can dance around other units if a player has good micro.
The most micro intensive units for the Zerg are zerglings, mutalisks, infestors, and banelings. Note how these are the favored units for high level Zerg play. Why? Because they reward micro skill.
Let's see how this Reaper harass works for everybody in the weeks to come, because we all know it'll be abused from this point forward. I'd invite anybody here to tell me if they are Terran and if they can just simply ROLL fantastic Zergs because of how "easy" it is with Reapers.
I've been using reaper openings for weeks. In team games, there are many Terran players who always have been using reaper openings. They only work if the player is so stupid that he sits there and lets his harvestors get killed by a few reapers. In 1v1, they only work if the player cannot micro against them. They are pretty easy to shut down. And they are a death sentence if a player keeps using them (as we saw many Terran losses during the tournament because they chose to go reapers).
If players aren't using reapers all the time by now, they likely never will. Reaper use is too risky as they take so much concentration and the slightest mistake is 'gg' for you.
|
On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote: lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame.
they way i understood it (and remeber MorroWs english like most europeans isnt perfect) and i think chill pointed a bit in that direction, was that MorroW and idrA had a bit of a gruge, idrA calling MorroW a bad player, MorroW calling him a untalanted (which one who started it is unclear, might been morrow might been idrA), however then in sc 2 artosis made an practice match between them and idrA won/lost (dont remeber which) MorroW took it badly since they allready was shakey ground.
IF IM WRONG I APOLOGISE BUT THIS IS TH WAY I UNDERSTOOD IT FROM THE INTERVIEW.
|
On August 23 2010 14:55 phungus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
Excellent points, and yes idrA wasn't playing his A game. In many ways it looked like he wanted to loose, his GG in game 1 was very premature, we've all seen games turn around from where idrA was. I still contend that the transition from 5 rax reaper into an expanding biomech build is too easy though, if you put that much pressure on your opponent it just seems like you should take a bigger econ hit then the Terran takes from the build. I'm sorry but did you bother to watch the replay? Morrow was 28 workers ahead of Idra when he gg'd.
|
On August 23 2010 14:59 aznhockeyboy16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga. zerg is not the race that requires the least micro skill. you can tell the difference in a fight vs. bio between dimaga's baneling use and idras. dimaga would kill the entire bio ball, and have like 5 banelings and 15 lings, and idra would lose with like 5 marauders left over. what do you mean Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals? why is helping another player shameful? but yes, a poor player will have no ability to continuously pressure a zerg, while also getting up the expo, and not losing reapers, and being able to stop the zerg from pushing back. besides, since zergs have been able to stop mech as of late, it's still way too early to say that it's imbalanced, but zerg don't have a proper response yet.
Concerning Dimaga, I mean if it was true he was trying to get Morrow to do a certain build in the finals in order to influence Blizzard. I don't think it is the right thing to do. And I don't think Blizzard will be influenced anyway. Blizzard will look and see two Zerg players in the top three, and they would see that the final games were hard fought (except for the last one but that didn't use any reapers).
About the zerg race requiring least micro, I am not referring to player skill. I am just pointing at how the units are designed. Zerg units are just two dimensional and are pretty bland. A good micro player cannot do as much with those units. Whereas a good micro player can do so much more with Terran units (such as reapers). And it is THIS that is the 'imbalance'.
I think the solution is to give the Zerg (and even Protoss) some more micro-intensive abilities or units. I also think the mirror matches bring to light this issue. Which is the most interesting and dynamic of the mirror match ups? T v T. Which is the most boring? Z v Z. More micro intensive units or abilities would flesh the non-Terran races out.
|
Funny you would say that because baneling wars are very micro intensive.
|
I do find it quite amusing that 3 weeks ago many people here were saying that there was no use making more than 1-2 reapers and that they were useless outside of the first harass. Naturally the metagame is still evolving. It does seem to hilight yet again how flexible and robust Terran is turning out to be though, while there seems to have been fewer changes in Z/P strategies since the release.
|
There's an easy way to manage reapers effectiveness for Blizzard though. Just change less cliffs to be jumpable if they want to make them worse.
|
On August 23 2010 14:55 phungus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
Excellent points, and yes idrA wasn't playing his A game. In many ways it looked like he wanted to loose, his GG in game 1 was very premature, we've all seen games turn around from where idrA was. I still contend that the transition from 5 rax reaper into an expanding biomech build is too easy though, if you put that much pressure on your opponent it just seems like you should take a bigger econ hit then the Terran takes from the build.
Are you saying Idra didnt want to win? absolutely rediculous. A high prestige tournament and $5k on the line and you think he didnt want to win? hahaha he never likes to lose.
|
On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: Reapers are fine. The reason why Idra lost against them was that he wasn't macroing when responding to the reapers (Idra had like 1000 minerals and tons of energy at a queen on one point, almost Bronze League macro there) and he was doing the wrong response to the reapers (mass roaches is the wrong response). The beautiful thing about reapers is that it forces micro skill of both controlling reapers and responding to reapers. Most higher level SC 2 players have good macro but horrible micro (which is why many are whining about reapers because they don't have the micro skills. Some pro Terran players have admitted they just cannot handle doing reapers). A mistake is to make units, attack move, and scroll the screen away (which cannot be done with reaper use). Zerg, the race that requires the least amount of micro skill, is a reason why Idra couldn't keep his minerals down while microing against the reapers. If reapers were so effective, then why did so many Terran players, including Morrow, lose so many games using reapers?
The real issue is the last game with the hellion and marauder attack (which no one wants to talk about). That is pretty air tight, and I don't know how can Zerg stop that before they get mutalisks.
It is pretty shameful though how Dimaga was trying to influence the tournament finals in order to influence Blizzard (to 'nerf' reapers). It is backfiring since it showed reapers aren't all that. Out of the four games of the final, two wins of Morrow had him using reapers, one loss had him using reapers. And the third win had no reapers at all. Of the two wins of using reapers, reapers were only used during the early game and didn't damage Idra at all. All it did was allow Morrow to get a fast expansion. Fail for Dimaga. One of the most clueless posts i've ever read in the sc2 forums and that's saying ALOT. You know NOTHING about starcraft why are you even here?
|
I Would love to see some new strats from zerg players to counter this mass reaper strat.... Maybe some burrowed banelings could work... there are no real units that properly counter reapers on zerg's T1 (lings, roaches or banelings).
There was a big difference between Morrow's Reaper micro against idrA compared to the semi-finals. Maybe that is Dimaga's advice to Morrow that ppl is talking about... The fact is that idrA was using 2, (and sometimes 3) control groups to kill those reapers while Morrow was using just 1.
I don't really know if Reapers are OP or not... time will tell... but it's SO stressfull for a zerg.. I think i would have cried if i was on idrA's position xD
|
I've got a pretty safe build I use for all terran openings that adapts really well. I feel like idra somewhat has the same build, but he could streamline it a little to get a few more roaches out earlier and not rely so much on lings. I also felt like idra was needlessly chasing reapers off of creep. I think the key is to just stay on the creep and ward the reapers away.
|
On August 23 2010 11:25 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:21 elderbre wrote: It may be for amateurs like you and me, but in a professional competition it's within fairplay and code of conduct, this is the same as any sport, and I think we want to consider e-sports also a part of sports. It should only be GG if you felt it was a GG, saying GG when you felt the game was bad is rather false and unnecessary imo. I mean does it really hurt a player if his opponent doesn't GG? he probably won't or at least shouldn't care since he's won anyway. edit: sorry for slight off topic, i'll shuttup about it now
Ehh, how about no?
Thats like saying tennis players shouldn't always thank their opponent after the game. Only if they feel there is something to thank for.
saying GG is just a way of showing respect. It's not the actual word GOOD game that the focus should be on but rather the act of respect like in any other professional (e) sport.
|
Funny you would say that because baneling wars are very micro intensive.
True, but the current zvz is a macro game now either roach/muta/ling, or roach/hydra/infestor. People have found a way to get roaches/defense fast enough and in numbers to nullify any number of banelings.
On the GG protocols, i do it, even when i'm upset, just cause i'm nice. In high level tournaments and stuff, it should be mandatory like in proleague as the accepted way of surrender. It does give a more professionalism to the game, and helps make it not 2 kids fighting over a snickers. Leaving the game and/or watching all your buildings get killed is more humiliating to me than just conceding.
|
On August 23 2010 14:43 Macavity wrote: A whole bunch of BS.
Many high level players have bad micro? Really?
Zerg requires the least micro skill? Really?
Really, terran is the only micro intensive race?
Reapers are not significantly hard to use. It doesn't take amazing gosu micro to use them against zerg. It takes more micro to use them against protoss because of stalkers.
What game have you been playing?
T players in beta were abusing reactor pushes because they were way too fast. After that got nerfed they were still trying to MMM, and one can remember the objections they had to using mech. "marines are necessary against mutas" To an extent this was true, but they said that even mixing in tanks would be death. Thor buffs // splash was pretty necessary. However the turrets were probably overbuffed. Everything that was whined about from T perspective was buffed or nerfed respectively. Roaches were significantly too strong, but they got over nerfed. Nydus play was fine, but apparently it was too hard to counter, so now they are fragile as shit and take forever to build. Collos destroyed MM so they got a range nerf. Storm was too powerful against MMM as well so that got significant nerfs.
Then T players found out, oh we can use emp and reapers too. And hellions arnt as bad as we thought.
It's not that micro skill has been improving. It's that people are becoming more familiar with the game // units. Way back when, even when zerg was OP with the roaches and other stuff some of the more foward looking pros said that terran would be the strongest race. Since then they had nothing but buffs and the other races were nerfed.
Now you wonder why issues exist?
|
|
On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote: lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame.
Why should IdrA "gg" if it wasn't a good game? That's just stupid. Would be better to write "bg" in that case.
|
On August 23 2010 11:26 MisterPuppy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other. so do colossus and high templar, but they also have many differences.
And yet they wont add in lurker because it will overlap the banelings role?
banelings dont overlap nearly as directly...
|
Jesus, the reaper already takes like a minute to be built. No more nerfs to it. >:[
|
On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining.
how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot..
|
On August 23 2010 17:51 ZergSecks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:13 JudoChopper wrote: lol at Morrow "he didn't gg" HEAVEN FORBID... most of the time "gg" is a mechanical reaction, its silly to force people to type it everygame. Why should IdrA "gg" if it wasn't a good game? That's just stupid. Would be better to write "bg" in that case. I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off. Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports.
|
On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot..
Indeed.
I seriously don't see how extra queens are going to work, yes you may be able to hold off reapers for a while, but then what?
You have these defensive queens, wich aside from transfusion don't really do anything. (since with a good amount of queens, you already have enough creep tumors.
So ye cool, what now, the Terran even has more mapcontrol and the zerg is in even a more defensive position. This is a big issue, a big part of reapers is that they give the T complete mapcontrol for as long as they are alive. And you are suggesting something that makes that even worse?
And then what, your lair is incredibly delayed, Oh hay cloaked banshee's, yes you can make spore crawlers, but then what? take a third? Okay, now i'm even more spread out.
And in all this time Terran has been able to do whatever he wants, since there is no threat at all from the zerg. And if he counters with roaches/speedlings, it is gonna be delayed because of all those mins that went into queens, and T will be able to react.
That is just my reasoning why mass queens just doesn't seem like a good idea, but that might be just me.
|
On August 23 2010 18:33 vyyye wrote: I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off. Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports. I would have no quibbles about shaking hands but saying the words GG wouldn't always be appropriate, perhaps some other thing like *shake hand* i'd be fine with that.
It doesn't make you more mature if you say gg and still think the other guy played like a douche it just makes you more reserved.
Also most times just say gg as a mechanical reaction so it really loses its impact and meaning. A handshake is just a formality without the connotations of gg attached.
|
On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. Indeed. I seriously don't see how extra queens are going to work, yes you may be able to hold off reapers for a while, but then what? You have these defensive queens, wich aside from transfusion don't really do anything. (since with a good amount of queens, you already have enough creep tumors. So ye cool, what now, the Terran even has more mapcontrol and the zerg is in even a more defensive position. This is a big issue, a big part of reapers is that they give the T complete mapcontrol for as long as they are alive. And you are suggesting something that makes that even worse? And then what, your lair is incredibly delayed, Oh hay cloaked banshee's, yes you can make spore crawlers, but then what? take a third? Okay, now i'm even more spread out. And in all this time Terran has been able to do whatever he wants, since there is no threat at all from the zerg. And if he counters with roaches/speedlings, it is gonna be delayed because of all those mins that went into queens, and T will be able to react. That is just my reasoning why mass queens just doesn't seem like a good idea, but that might be just me.
There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases.
Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army.
|
1) This build is OLD. I saw lzgamer doing it in a game showed at the day9 sc2 countdown party.
2) This build is too strong. As a terran player I think that I can say that it's even imbalanced. Even IF you scout it as a zerg, then you will have a very hard time holding it. I'm 100% sure that dimaga and idra saw this build before and the fact that they still don't know how to hold this shows how imbalanced it is. IF the zerg can hold it then he is behind on his opponent and unless the terran makes a big mistake, the zerg will lose.
|
On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army.
Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions.
The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was
And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map.
|
IMO, the problem is not so much about the strength of this reaper build. As the last idra morrow game showed, the biggest issue is how many different viable openings T have compared to Z. So if you want to be prepared against reapers, you have to do X. But then T can quite easily fake and do something completely different, something that rapes X (like marauder hellion>>what you do vs reapers)
This basically illustrates what I've been feeling while playing Z for months: just too little viable strats, always having to react to what T player dictates. Adding viable openings to Z would probably help more than nerfing reapers imo..
|
On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map.
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine.
|
On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine.
So weird that the 2 best zergplayers never found out about this... "just make an extra queen".
|
On August 23 2010 19:04 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. So weird that the 2 best zergplayers never found out about this... "just make an extra queen".
One of those best zerg players doesn't do anything that hurts his macro, ever. Every notable game of IdrA's I've seen is just him dragging out the game until he has 180 food of Hydra/Roach, then winning or losing depending on how the upcoming battle turns out. It's just not in his style to do something like "just make an extra queen", or rather, to do anything that doesn't involve massing units all game long.
I'm not sure who the other one you're refering to is.
|
On August 23 2010 19:04 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:
Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. So weird that the 2 best zergplayers never found out about this... "just make an extra queen".
Not to mention Idra gets an extra queen every game immediately the first one is done...
|
On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map. Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine.
The issue with getting extra queens is that past the 'critical mass' of Reapers they deal with Queens very easily. In the three games MorroW massed a large number of Reapers and really put the Queen that Idra had in trouble. A second Queen would have been in as much trouble as the first.
|
On August 23 2010 19:09 maJes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map. Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. The issue with getting extra queens is that past the 'critical mass' of Reapers they deal with Queens very easily. In the three games MorroW massed a large number of Reapers and really put the Queen that Idra had in trouble. A second Queen would have been in as much trouble as the first.
I was refering specifically to early reapers.
At that point in the game, he already had a roach warren out. IdrA made plenty of mistakes that game, did a lot of pointless chasing off of creep, etc etc. Either his attention was elsewhere or he really wanted those reapers dead, but it was a mistake nonetheless.
|
On August 23 2010 19:07 Vokasak wrote: One of those best zerg players doesn't do anything that hurts his macro, ever. Every notable game of IdrA's I've seen is just him dragging out the game until he has 180 food of Hydra/Roach, then winning or losing depending on how the upcoming battle turns out. It's just not in his style to do something like "just make an extra queen", or rather, to do anything that doesn't involve massing units all game long.
I'm not sure who the other one you're refering to is.
Both idra and dimaga lost to those 5rax reaper builds, several times.
|
On August 23 2010 15:02 Macavity wrote:
As players get more comfortable with the units and races, micro skill is improving. Terran units reward micro play such as reapers (as well as stimming infantry, banshees, siege tanks and other units). Protoss units don't really have that high need of micro (with the exception of high templars and stalkers). You cannot do that much with a zealot or an immortal. With Zerg, there is less need for micro. Aside from zerglings and mutalisks, there is very little to micro. Ultralisks, hyralisks, and roaches somewhat are essentially attack move.
Just wanted to point out that void rays, phoenixs, and colossi all reward protoss micro. Protoss is not a 1a race... Also sentries(forcefield ^^)
|
On August 23 2010 14:48 phungus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:24 zalu wrote: ...Morrow has commented as to the skill that is required to successfully harass Idra level Zerg players. But on the flip-side of that coin, he has also made remarks on how the game is potentially OP for Terran. Was he just expressing humility? What does he really think? Who knows.
Once you get to mid game the MU seems balanced, but the early game needs some tweaking.
Seems reasonable enough.
|
On August 23 2010 19:12 Vokasak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 19:09 maJes wrote:On August 23 2010 19:02 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:56 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:42 Vokasak wrote:On August 23 2010 18:37 Icx wrote:On August 23 2010 18:29 makopluxx wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. how many queens exactly? they build slowly and you need to use 1 of your hatches to morph to a lair... what is 1 extra queen going to do? dot.. dot.. *snip* There's no such thing as "enough" creep tumors. I've never played/seen any game where a player/commentator has thought/said "Woah, that's way too much creep spread." Especially since you seem to imply in your post that you're having trouble holding a third. Massive creep spread is great for map control and moving between bases. Queens are dirt cheap. "All those mins" that went into queens would be exactly 150 for one extra defensive Queen. That's six zerglings, not exactly a game-breaking cut to your army. Yes but if you have 5 queens, there is just a point where you have that many creep tumors that there isn't much else you can do.Like on steppes, 4 forward creep tumors, one that goes to the third, and one to the gold, and you already have creep everywhere. In that case you are just better off to start saving up energy for transfusions. The guy wasn't talking about just getting an extra queen, he was talking about making mass queens to fend it off. That is where my problem with his statement was And yes when the Terran still has a big bunch of reapers on the map, and has had the time to mass up whatever he wants, and you have been under pressure the whole game from reapers, and you are way behind in tech compared to a normal game, then yes, getting a third is gonna start to be hard depending on the map. Nobody is saying get 5 extra queens, unless you see Banshees coming or something. Just try to minimize your drone losses and get like a extra queen to defend and have her spread creep tumors full time. You'll be fine. The issue with getting extra queens is that past the 'critical mass' of Reapers they deal with Queens very easily. In the three games MorroW massed a large number of Reapers and really put the Queen that Idra had in trouble. A second Queen would have been in as much trouble as the first. I was refering specifically to early reapers. At that point in the game, he already had a roach warren out. IdrA made plenty of mistakes that game, did a lot of pointless chasing off of creep, etc etc. Either his attention was elsewhere or he really wanted those reapers dead, but it was a mistake nonetheless.
I don't know how you can say this with a straight face? Every action has a consequence, some are bigger than others. Chasing further out off the creep may make your roaches vulnerable, but it means that the reapers have a little more distance to cover before poking back in. This can buy a good multitasking player a little more time to get a structure underway while denying as much scouting as possible or to relieve a little pressure on the economy. It also allows a person to spread the creep tumor with less fear that the reapers will just run in and creep deny while the tumor is still visible.
The problem I am having with your posts is that you speak in absolutes... and that is an unwise thing to do in a game such as SC2. You speak of expanding creep and using queens to defend as if it is such a huge problem solver when in reality, it is at best a band aid solution and at worst it can delay a whole host of other options. If queens could be spawned from thin air for 150 minerals then sure, you can speak of 150 minerals as being a strictly mineral cost, it is however an opportunity cost in that it delays all manner of upgrades. Imagine if stim upgrades delayed production capacity at your barracks, would you still just say, always research stim straight away even before your first unit was produced? Queens are hopeless off creep unlike lings, they are also slower than reapers on creep so having more is at best a deterrent, but a good micro player can hit one queen and retreat before taking a hit.
It's also naive to speak of mistakes as though they were unforced errors, everything is easy to see in hindsight.
|
On August 23 2010 15:35 delayed reflex wrote: I do find it quite amusing that 3 weeks ago many people here were saying that there was no use making more than 1-2 reapers and that they were useless outside of the first harass. Naturally the metagame is still evolving. It does seem to hilight yet again how flexible and robust Terran is turning out to be though, while there seems to have been fewer changes in Z/P strategies since the release.
Reapers are still useless besides the first harass vs zerg. When the zerg gets a couple of roaches reapers become close to useless (everything is relative, but they are definately not cost effective). IMO reapers should be changed instead of nerfed, so that they became a better mid/late game unit against protoss and terran, and slightly nerfed early game vs zerg.
|
cool and interesting stuff
|
thanks for this. watching now.
reapers -_-
|
On August 23 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Reaper and Hellion serve overlapping roles. Safe to just yank one or the other.
Except hellions are shut down by ONE spinecrawler without drops on most maps.
|
On August 23 2010 19:30 groms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 15:02 Macavity wrote:
As players get more comfortable with the units and races, micro skill is improving. Terran units reward micro play such as reapers (as well as stimming infantry, banshees, siege tanks and other units). Protoss units don't really have that high need of micro (with the exception of high templars and stalkers). You cannot do that much with a zealot or an immortal. With Zerg, there is less need for micro. Aside from zerglings and mutalisks, there is very little to micro. Ultralisks, hyralisks, and roaches somewhat are essentially attack move.
Just wanted to point out that void rays, phoenixs, and colossi all reward protoss micro. Protoss is not a 1a race... Also sentries(forcefield ^^)
Phoenixes do, but VRs and Colossi don't have a very high micro ceiling. I'm not really sure that this is relevant in this thread, though.
|
Thanks for the WoC and the interview DjWheat. You always have the great stuff Interested in seeing how this imba reapers thing will evolve
|
Am I the only one who thinks that it's quite funny how MUCH zerg are whining about reapers, although it failed like half of the time in the tournament, while there was no protoss at all in the play-offs, but I don't see any protoss whining about imbalance. I'm not saying that terran is fine, there are WAY too many good openings and it has to be nerfed (most likely some tweaks for reapers and banshees), but it's just absurd how the community dramatizes the zerg balance atm. Just wait some time and don't blame every single situation which might look difficult to solve on balance. Because zerg itself is such a difficult race it takes a lot longer and more practice to see solutions how to counter the diverse openings. But it's not necessary to spam every single thread on TL, because Idra lost against a terran, with a discussion about TvZ imbalance.
|
On August 23 2010 20:57 gillon wrote: Except hellions are shut down by ONE spinecrawler without drops on most maps.
Are you serious? I think you forget zerglings and a couple of queens. One sunken never prevented drones to be roasted by hellion
|
does anybody know how i'll be able to download the audio only for this interview? i'm trying to get it ready for work tonight, i have dj wheats rss but for some reason weapons of choice shows up as an error, i just need a link to dl the .mp3 file or something. thanks!
|
On August 23 2010 18:39 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:33 vyyye wrote: I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off. Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports. I would have no quibbles about shaking hands but saying the words GG wouldn't always be appropriate, perhaps some other thing like *shake hand* i'd be fine with that. It doesn't make you more mature if you say gg and still think the other guy played like a douche it just makes you more reserved. Also most times just say gg as a mechanical reaction so it really loses its impact and meaning. A handshake is just a formality without the connotations of gg attached.
Calling g has nothing to do with the actual intention of calling the game good, but rather acknowledging defeat, and returning the gg in the same manner having the effect of accepting the surrender.
|
the problem is not the reapers the problem lies between the variable of units that terran has.there is much room for terran openings.check game 3.idra could do anything.it is same vs protoss too.terran has everything to win.everything to counter.the other player will always work harder to win.but it will be easy win for terran always.we will see lots of tvt in the future.check the last tournament there is no protoss.
|
Canada9720 Posts
great episode all together.
i can't believe incontrol got flown to dubai to coach sc2 LOL. is that real? that's amazing.
|
wow this show is really good, never heard of it before?
Is it weekly and where is the thread on TL about it?
|
I play random high platinum, and whenever I get TvZ I do the reaper build.
People usually respond by saying "Are you diamond?" and when I say "No" they just leave.
It's just so easy to do, and so hard to counter. I'm obviously not playing in the top top pro league, but I imagine that the situation is somewhat mirrored up there.
|
I love the commentary about the etiquette of the GG.
|
On August 23 2010 21:38 ssregitoss wrote: the problem is not the reapers the problem lies between the variable of units that terran has.there is much room for terran openings.check game 3.idra could do anything.it is same vs protoss too.terran has everything to win.everything to counter.the other player will always work harder to win.but it will be easy win for terran always.we will see lots of tvt in the future.check the last tournament there is no protoss.
Terran has only cheesy units...terran=cheese. Only niche units usefull in certain situations but in a face to face army confrontation they dont stand a chance.
Bio play gets utterly destroyed by banelings. (dimaga vs tarson) Mech play gets wtfpwned by mutas.( idra vs tarson)
But it seems everyone forgot those two pieces of info we got from IEM and keeps whining about stupid reapers wich lost the game for Tarson in like 8 minutes vs Idra.
So fine lets nerf reapers by lowering speed and more cost. But also lets nerf baneling speed and increse cost. Lets buff thor's splash dmg radius cuz they are SUPPOSED to hard counter mutas.
Deal?
|
I'm not pro-level, only 600ish diamond, but it appears to me that spine crawlers would have put an end to most of the reaper antics greatly accelerating the mutalisks which would have gained complete map control.
Also the good old one base muta build seems strong against this opening - at least at non-progamer-level.
|
On August 23 2010 23:18 Thrombozyt wrote: I'm not pro-level, only 600ish diamond, but it appears to me that spine crawlers would have put an end to most of the reaper antics greatly accelerating the mutalisks which would have gained complete map control.
Also the good old one base muta build seems strong against this opening - at least at non-progamer-level. Yep. Just Pros being greedy and thinking, "hurp, I can hold this off with one Spinecrawler."
|
I watched all the games with alot of pauses and analytical thinking.
And what i saw from every game was that Terran and Zerg was equal in food and in the "lost" tab. What "always" lost idra the game was the play after that. usually the midgame marine marauder reaper push, but a couple of games he held that off and in the third game he lost to drops and siege tank play
I mean, MorroW never won wiith reapers alone. and in the one game idra got mutas, idra won.
Anyone want to explain what happened in that game? did morrow fuck up?
Its just so little that has to be changed for this to be balanced, i really hope blizz dont go overboard.
|
not sure but i guess the main problem of zerg right now is scouting. The game that IdrA won was due to the fact that he managed to slip in a ling into morrow's base and scout everything. i'm not sure about games 1 and 3 though, i didnt managed to see them cause i was doing something else. But on game 4, there was nothing that IdrA could have did about it. He couldn't scout the hidden reactored factory and only saw 2 raxes with tech lab, which most probably made him assume that he was going to use reapers to slightly harass him while getting an expansion out. whereas at game 2 in metalopolis, he scouted the 5 rax reaper and managed to react properly to it.
spine crawlers are a waste of money against reaper orientated builds. the D6 charge just makes u waste so much money on them that you're better off grabbing more lings and creep,unless u decide to build like 3-4 spine crawlers and let the terran get a bigger advantage over you
|
United States6959 Posts
On August 23 2010 18:39 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:33 vyyye wrote: I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off. Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports. I would have no quibbles about shaking hands but saying the words GG wouldn't always be appropriate, perhaps some other thing like *shake hand* i'd be fine with that. It doesn't make you more mature if you say gg and still think the other guy played like a douche it just makes you more reserved. Also most times just say gg as a mechanical reaction so it really loses its impact and meaning. A handshake is just a formality without the connotations of gg attached.
No, it does make you more mature because thinking someone played like a "douche" just because they beat you is absolutely pathetic. There is no situation where playing within the bounds of the rules of the game is a "douche" way to play. Suck it up, stop being a whiny little bitch, and be respectful. It's shit like this that still gives e-sports a bad image.
Terran has only cheesy units...terran=cheese. Only niche units usefull in certain situations but in a face to face army confrontation they dont stand a chance.
Bio play gets utterly destroyed by banelings. (dimaga vs tarson) Mech play gets wtfpwned by mutas.( idra vs tarson)
But it seems everyone forgot those two pieces of info we got from IEM and keeps whining about stupid reapers wich lost the game for Tarson in like 8 minutes vs Idra.
So fine lets nerf reapers by lowering speed and more cost. But also lets nerf baneling speed and increse cost. Lets buff thor's splash dmg radius cuz they are SUPPOSED to hard counter mutas.
Deal?
Yes, Terran doesn't have any way to survive in a longer macro game...
What? Do you know anything about SC2?
|
On August 23 2010 12:03 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 12:01 Redmark wrote: In many situations when people don't shake hands and just leave the media makes a huge deal out of it (I remember it happening a few times in football or something). Not unique to Starcraft really. Shaking hands is different to GG, GG means good game, shaking hands does not mean GG or anything like it.
Remember how big a deal it was when Lebron walked off the court during a playoff series without shaking anybodys hand after the Cavs lost? He was seen as a bad sport and a poor loser, similar to how people view those who don't gg.
|
On August 23 2010 23:27 Invictus wrote:spine crawlers are a waste of money against reaper orientated builds. the D6 charge just makes u waste so much money on them that you're better off grabbing more lings and creep,unless u decide to build like 3-4 spine crawlers and let the terran get a bigger advantage over you
I never said he should use spines only, but especially in the Xel'Naga Caverns match one or two crawlers would have been helpful, because even 8 reapers need at least 2 shots (more with transfuse) and that is the time where you can sneak lings in their back, shot at them with roaches and do other stuff to force them to disengage.
Spines have range 7, D8 charges range 5, so position your roaches 2 units away from your spine and roaches will hit any reaper trying to D8 the crawler and the crawler will hit any reaper trying to pistol the roaches. Suddenly you have created space you control.
It's not like the terran is under no pressure to make something work here. He has invested heavily in the reapers and the moment mutas hit the field they are obsolete. So all you need is breathing room.
|
On August 23 2010 23:05 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 21:38 ssregitoss wrote: the problem is not the reapers the problem lies between the variable of units that terran has.there is much room for terran openings.check game 3.idra could do anything.it is same vs protoss too.terran has everything to win.everything to counter.the other player will always work harder to win.but it will be easy win for terran always.we will see lots of tvt in the future.check the last tournament there is no protoss. Terran has only cheesy units...terran=cheese. Only niche units usefull in certain situations but in a face to face army confrontation they dont stand a chance. Bio play gets utterly destroyed by banelings. (dimaga vs tarson) Mech play gets wtfpwned by mutas.( idra vs tarson) But it seems everyone forgot those two pieces of info we got from IEM and keeps whining about stupid reapers wich lost the game for Tarson in like 8 minutes vs Idra. So fine lets nerf reapers by lowering speed and more cost. But also lets nerf baneling speed and increse cost. Lets buff thor's splash dmg radius cuz they are SUPPOSED to hard counter mutas. Deal?
How many units does Terran have access to compared to Zerg? Zerg have a limited number of units, very few of which can be used in isolation against a reasonable unit composition. They also don't have a T1 - T1.5 unit which is as versatile as a marine.
Also, Thor != hard counter to Mutalisk, it's even arguable if one should even be able to speak in terms of hard counter, soft counter. You act as if just building a unit gives you the right to shut down a certain other unit. The only unit Thor technically "hard counters" are air units which cannot attack ground (corruptor/phoenix).
All Terran has to do is build some ravens and a few PDD to shut down mutas. The Ravens won't be a waste anyway since they can do SOOOOO much more than just detect. As Thor costs less gas than Muta, you will have some left over for Ravens anyway.
In any case, ever wonder why the majority of Terran players will tell you their best matchup is TvZ... how can a game be balanced if a large majority of Terran players have an easier time against Zerg? A balanced game would have people who are indifferent to what their opponent's race is, or that the population would have a reasonable split.
TLO mentioned that Morrow's TvT is stronger than his, and yet he still chose to use Terran because Z would have been even worse. How convenient that you forget that.
|
On August 23 2010 23:27 Invictus wrote: not sure but i guess the main problem of zerg right now is scouting. The game that IdrA won was due to the fact that he managed to slip in a ling into morrow's base and scout everything. i'm not sure about games 1 and 3 though, i didnt managed to see them cause i was doing something else. But on game 4, there was nothing that IdrA could have did about it. He couldn't scout the hidden reactored factory and only saw 2 raxes with tech lab, which most probably made him assume that he was going to use reapers to slightly harass him while getting an expansion out. whereas at game 2 in metalopolis, he scouted the 5 rax reaper and managed to react properly to it.
spine crawlers are a waste of money against reaper orientated builds. the D6 charge just makes u waste so much money on them that you're better off grabbing more lings and creep,unless u decide to build like 3-4 spine crawlers and let the terran get a bigger advantage over you
idk man, idra was scouting very well with early overlords and overseers basically in MorroWs base all game. I don't really think that's the big issue, i mean, he knew what morrow was doing.
|
On August 23 2010 18:39 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:33 vyyye wrote: I'll bring up Chill's example.
Imagine a football/basketball/whatever game, after the game every player will shake hands with the opposing team. One asshole decides that no, it wasn't a good game so he just storms off. Doesn't that just show how much of an immature prick he is? Rather than "Oh well, he thought it was a bad game". Considering the high regard for e-sports here, a lot of folks seem to have forgotten the very basics of behaving yourselves within sports. I would have no quibbles about shaking hands but saying the words GG wouldn't always be appropriate, perhaps some other thing like *shake hand* i'd be fine with that. It doesn't make you more mature if you say gg and still think the other guy played like a douche it just makes you more reserved. Also most times just say gg as a mechanical reaction so it really loses its impact and meaning. A handshake is just a formality without the connotations of gg attached.
Well in most circumstance its impossible afaik to shake hands over the internet. So you could count GG in the same was as a hand shake.
|
On August 23 2010 11:12 Sieziggy wrote: I'm just curious to see what the fix will be. Think they'll scrap reapers all together? Or simply remove the speed upgrade / nerf their nade spam?
I imagine right now they wish they could remove it, but it's too late. If they had started the beta a month earlier they could have fixed this. It's a terrible unit and adds almost nothing to the game and takes a way a lot. If you were teaching Game Design 101 this would be a prime example of what not to do.
|
I wanna say that 1 base muta (aka, you expand more or less when the mutas pop) should beat mass reapers, but I don't really know how all the timing works out. I know 1 base muta +a few spines at your ramp is one of the stronger builds against an early hellion/marauder push (otherwise need 2-4 spines at the expo + some army to hold, though someone of Idra's caliber could probably make do with less).
Problem being that a Z is likely committed to a FE build by the time they see the reapers unless they freak out after seeing a single reaper/tech lab go down, which is obviously silly.
If I had to guess at the "official" solution, I'd say it'll be a slight range decrease for Reapers (obviously Zerg buffs are out of the question, lul).
And for extra doom and gloom, just imagine if someone actually had good enough micro (insert Flash comment here) and was attacking on two (or more!) fronts at once with the damn things instead of running them all around in one control group.
|
Reaper openings are good for the game, much more interesting to see than mmost other things. So I really wouldn't mind to see it stay, if terran is too good, nerf terran in general (reduce mule harvest rate for example, it'll hurt a terran a bit no matter what he does) not just this 1 cool build :/
|
I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 2 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could to defend against it, and still was drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke.
|
Can someone give a link to a thread detailing and discussing the 3 rax into 5 rax build Morrow was doing? I looked in the strategy forum but could not find any.
|
The stupid thing is that even when the Z anticipates and reacts to a build like this, it will still be hard as hell to hold off. I really don't think Z has a similar build to put that much pressure on terran that is really not counterable. Yes it is POSSIBLE to hold off, but it's really stupid that even when you react to it perfectly, and see it coming from a mile away, it's still extremely threatening...
|
Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D
And I do agree reapers are very hard to deal with. The only redeeming quality of that opening is it almost forces the terran to do a bio build after (if it gets held off). I think all zergs would agree they would MUCH rather face bio than mech at this point. If the reapers were made a little less powerful I it seems fine to stay in the game imo. If I had to fix it, I would make their range = to a roach, or lower movement speed so they couldn't infinitely kite the roaches.
|
On August 24 2010 10:34 nybbas wrote: I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 3 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could immediatly to defend against it, and still has drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke.
It is difficult, very difficult to micro them well and macro at the same time.
You try to use reapers to beat IdrA and Dimaga.
|
On August 23 2010 23:24 Snowfield wrote: I mean, MorroW never won wiith reapers alone. and in the one game idra got mutas, idra won.
Anyone want to explain what happened in that game? did morrow fuck up?
Its just so little that has to be changed for this to be balanced, i really hope blizz dont go overboard.
In the two games Idra lost to reapers, he made no mutalisks.
You could say that Morrow waited too long. He focused too much on building a large number of them. However, what won the game was Idra doing the correct response: mutalisks.
The defense against reapers requires good micro to hold it off. That often buys enough time to get to mutalisks which absolutely shuts down any reapers running around on the map (as well as hellions and marauders). It forces the Terran to go anti-air. It gives Zerg map control.
Responding to reapers with mass roaches is a wrong move. While roaches do not easily die to reapers, they can still be kited and killed. A few roaches is fine to buy time for mutalisks, but going mass roaches won't kill the faster reapers and sets the Zerg up to be slaughtered as the Terran easily switches to marauders.
What also really hurt Idra in Game 3 was that he was not macroing well when he was microing his units. He hit 1000 minerals at one point causing Day[9] to be flabbergasted.
On August 23 2010 21:11 Bommes wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that it's quite funny how MUCH zerg are whining about reapers, although it failed like half of the time in the tournament, while there was no protoss at all in the play-offs, but I don't see any protoss whining about imbalance. I'm not saying that terran is fine, there are WAY too many good openings and it has to be nerfed (most likely some tweaks for reapers and banshees), but it's just absurd how the community dramatizes the zerg balance atm. Just wait some time and don't blame every single situation which might look difficult to solve on balance. Because zerg itself is such a difficult race it takes a lot longer and more practice to see solutions how to counter the diverse openings. But it's not necessary to spam every single thread on TL, because Idra lost against a terran, with a discussion about TvZ imbalance.
I think it is two reasons. The Zerg race is very frustrating to play (I switched away from it) because it is still undeveloped. Because of this, many Zerg players are cranky (I was cranky when I played Zerg. Idra, as a famous example, is extremely cranky). The other reason is the general ego thing. When someone loses a game, they didn't really lose. It is because a race is "imbalanced", the other player "cheated", or something else. This is why some Zerg players have ridiculously claimed they are the 'elite players' merely because they play Zerg. 99% of all losses have to do with the player, not the design of the race.
But since I have yet to meet a Zerg player that wasn't frustrated with his race, I think there is a major design flaw in the Zerg that is the root of the frustration (I think it is the two dimensional units). This is why, statistically, the races could be 'balanced' in wins and losses yet Zerg players could be frustrated and unhappy. It points that the flaw is not so much in the balance but in something else. If Zerg was well developed, then Z vs Z would not be a horrible match-up in both viewing and playing. We will know when Zerg is fixed once Z vs Z becomes interesting to watch and fun to play.
On August 23 2010 17:38 dogabutila wrote:Many high level players have bad micro? Really?
I wish you would quote what I actually say instead of saying 'bunch of BS' and placing up strawmen to attack. It would help discussion.
While macro has been the focus for SC 2, micro has not been discussed. People confuse micro with kiting units (which is an extremely basic form of micro). Because of how fast Starcraft 2 is, it is extremely difficult to micro very well and macro very well. This is why when many people use reapers, they discover their minerals skyrocket. Even good players.
Idra is a good player. However, his macro turned into bronze league during the third game because he was focusing so much on microing against the reapers. Idra is known for having rock solid fundamentals and even playing extremely consistently. Yet, in a high profile tournament finale, his fundamentals completely slipped. What happened?
What I think what occurred is that most players have trouble doing extreme micro with extreme macro at the same time. Idra clearly couldn't do both in that game. For many Terran players during the tournament, going reapers cost them games because they slipped up on one of the two ends.
Let me ask a question. It is much better for someone like Morrow to split up his reapers and attack with two armies. Why group them all up in one control group? Why not attack from two fronts? The answer why Morrow didn't do this is because he couldn't. It is challenging enough to micro well with one group of reapers and macro well back at your base let alone with multiple reaper armies. In time, perhaps, people will build up the skills in order to do so. If this occurs, then opponents need to build up the micro skills needed to defend against multiple reaper armies at once.
Let me ask another question. Why are reapers being focused and not the final game where Morrow used the air tight timing attack of hellions and marauders against Idra especially when reaper openings lost the game for many Terran players?
The answer is that reaper openings, which win some of the time, is extremely annoying to Zerg. But the hellion and marauder opening is not that annoying. So why is the reaper opening so annoying? It is because it shifts the game to intense micro skills of both players. It can be overwhelming for many players.
With Zerg units, they do not reward greater micro skill as units from other races. This is not the fault of the player, it is the fault of the 'swarmy' philosophy Blizzard has in how two dimensional Zerg units were designed. How exactly can an ultralisk reward high micro skill? Or a hydralisk? It is nothing compared to say a reaper or a ghost or a banshee. This isn't to say there isn't ANY Zerg units that reward micro, there are. Zerglings, banelings, mutalisks, and queens being the big ones. The problem is that Zerg has much less than other races. This is why, even though there have been no balance changes since Phase II Beta started, it "feels" like Terran is getting stronger and stronger. But what is really going on is that as people's micro skill improves, Terran units better reward that skill. Reapers are a good example of a unit that was considered "worthless" earlier on but now is seen as 'overpowered'. The next unit up is going to be the ghost. Before, no one talked much about it. But in a few weeks, I bet people are going to start declaring the ghost 'imbalanced' because people are learning how to micro well with it.
This is why I think the solution to the "imbalance", which is actually more general in nature, is to give Zerg more micro intensive abilities and units. Even if Terran was nerfed, Z v Z matchups would still suck. Instead of having an equalization of misery, it is better to flesh out and better the Zerg (and even the Protoss).
Zerg requires the least micro skill? Really?
Yes, because clearly hydralisks and ultralisks and roaches require intense micro abilities to be effective. Units like reapers are just attack move. (sarcasm) Keep in mind I am not attacking a player, I am attacking the bland unit design for Zerg. I played Zerg all through the beta and finally got frustrated at how two dimensional the units were.
Really, terran is the only micro intensive race?
If you quoted me properly, you would know that I said that Terran has the most options available to reward micro play. Zerg clearly has the least. And it is this that I believe is the true cause of the "imbalance". In other words, increasing hydralisk attack speed or slowing down reaper build time isn't going to fix anything. Z v Z will still be horrible. Terran will still have the most options at the table.
Reapers are not significantly hard to use. It doesn't take amazing gosu micro to use them against zerg. It takes more micro to use them against protoss because of stalkers.
Are you saying the tournament players had bad micro? Many Terran players lost to Zerg using reaper openings. Even Morrow lost a game doing it.
T players in beta were abusing reactor pushes because they were way too fast. After that got nerfed they were still trying to MMM, and one can remember the objections they had to using mech. "marines are necessary against mutas" To an extent this was true, but they said that even mixing in tanks would be death. Thor buffs // splash was pretty necessary. However the turrets were probably overbuffed. Everything that was whined about from T perspective was buffed or nerfed respectively. Roaches were significantly too strong, but they got over nerfed. Nydus play was fine, but apparently it was too hard to counter, so now they are fragile as shit and take forever to build. Collos destroyed MM so they got a range nerf. Storm was too powerful against MMM as well so that got significant nerfs.
Then T players found out, oh we can use emp and reapers too. And hellions arnt as bad as we thought.
It's not that micro skill has been improving. It's that people are becoming more familiar with the game // units. Way back when, even when zerg was OP with the roaches and other stuff some of the more foward looking pros said that terran would be the strongest race. Since then they had nothing but buffs and the other races were nerfed.
Now you wonder why issues exist?
People were very familiar with the units even back when Phase II started (after months and months of playtime, far more than the retail has been out at this point). But even when Phase II started, people on this very forum were making their 'suggestions' to Blizzard and were saying things like to scrap the reaper because "no one uses it". Lo and behold, a few weeks later, the reaper is now "overpowered". The game hasn't changed. However, people's micro skill with the units have improved. I expect the ghost to be the next Terran "overpowered" unit as players are beginning to learn how to micro the ghost better than ever.
Also, Zerg wasn't 'overpowered' so much as they were never 'finished'. Ultralisks, a key top tier unit for the Zerg, were considered a joke throughout the entire beta. Everyone laughed at the 'infested terran' ability that got swapped to all sorts of different areas, such as the overseer, until finally being placed on the infestor to cast while burrowed.
I think Zerg still needs some work. I would still be playing Zerg if their units actually had depth to play with.
|
I first saw it being used to great effect from LZgamer. I was kind of hoping he would get to beat idra with it on a big stage since idra hates him so much.
|
ohh, looking forward to watching this
|
+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2010 13:00 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 10:34 nybbas wrote: I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 3 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could immediatly to defend against it, and still has drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke. It is difficult, very difficult to micro them well and macro at the same time. You try to use reapers to beat IdrA and Dimaga.
Perfect response, yeah I'll use it to beat Idra, thats how you win an argument right there. I am probably on the shit end of diamond (then again from some of the diamond players I have played, maybe a little better) I guarantee any decent C or higher ICCUP player would be able to micro the reapers and throw down an extra command center and build scvs. This is nothing like microing mutas while managing your macro in BW....
|
On August 24 2010 02:10 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:12 Sieziggy wrote: I'm just curious to see what the fix will be. Think they'll scrap reapers all together? Or simply remove the speed upgrade / nerf their nade spam? I imagine right now they wish they could remove it, but it's too late. If they had started the beta a month earlier they could have fixed this. It's a terrible unit and adds almost nothing to the game and takes a way a lot. If you were teaching Game Design 101 this would be a prime example of what not to do. I wouldn't at all say balancing SC2 is at all "game design 101," but that said yeah they need to be removed. Terran has simply TOO many openers/options compared to all the other races. Reapers definitely need to just be removed -- T already has a higher unit count than p/z, so it'd just push things into a more manageable number.
|
On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining.
Wow, are you that biased about your own race? You call QQ on everything and even Terrans at higher levels agree this strat is OP.
|
On August 24 2010 11:51 BondGamer wrote: Can someone give a link to a thread detailing and discussing the 3 rax into 5 rax build Morrow was doing? I looked in the strategy forum but could not find any.
I hope you dont find it.
|
10387 Posts
On August 24 2010 12:50 imPERSONater wrote: Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D I don't think being nice/sportsmanship was the ulterior motive here lol..
On August 24 2010 13:00 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 10:34 nybbas wrote: I can not stand all you people saying that the reapers only worked 1 out of 3 games for morrow... the reapers worked all three games, am I the only one who thinks morrow lost game 3 was because he threw away his army and 10+ scvs on a near all-in attack, when he could have just macrod and raped? (like he does in the very next game) Game three the reapers allowed him to stay a base ahead, then on even bases with idra, which allowed him to come so far ahead midgame. All three of these games Idra scouted the build and knew exactly what was coming, did everything he could immediatly to defend against it, and still has drowning trying to hold them off.
Also, if he hadn't been chasing the reapers off the creep, we saw in game 1 where they just nuked down the expansion, he has to keep them as far away from his structure as possible because otherwise the reapers just nuke them down...
Microing a single control group of reapers to attack, and move backwards is the most basic kind of micro possible, saying its in any way difficult is a complete joke. It is difficult, very difficult to micro them well and macro at the same time. You try to use reapers to beat IdrA and Dimaga. with MBS and Automine, I don't think its that hard to macro and micro well. Certainly nowhere near the level of Sair/Reaver
|
you guys act like he had never made a reaper before in his life lol, i'm sure hes done different variations of reapers hundreds of times, the only thing he learned was the basic build timings / what to do with the reapers ( WHICH DIMAGA TOLD HIM ). That is not hard to do in 10 or 20 games, as long as you have the skill to execute it.
|
On August 24 2010 15:29 drewbie.root wrote: you guys act like he had never made a reaper before in his life lol, i'm sure hes done different variations of reapers hundreds of times, the only thing he learned was the basic build timings / what to do with the reapers ( WHICH DIMAGA TOLD HIM ). That is not hard to do in 10 or 20 games, as long as you have the skill to execute it.
You act like Idra has never seen a reaper in his life, and just didn't know the proper technique to defend against it. If getting speedlings, and speed roaches as fast as the game allows isn't the counter, then what is?! Dimaga told him what to do with the reapers? meaning... shoot stuff? the micro game with reapers is pretty rudimentary... (Tarson loses all his reapers to Idra due to really bad micro, not because Idra played better that game)
|
On August 23 2010 12:03 JudoChopper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 12:01 Redmark wrote: In many situations when people don't shake hands and just leave the media makes a huge deal out of it (I remember it happening a few times in football or something). Not unique to Starcraft really. Shaking hands is different to GG, GG means good game, shaking hands does not mean GG or anything like it. Its not different. Both are means of showing respect to the other player. Its as simple as that.
|
Can someone give me a list of what is considered op with terran? I've lost track. Or better yet, what units and strategies that are allowed without people getting angry at you?
|
Yeah, it was an extremely interesting interview. I knew of the flame that Morrow got, especially for his TSL2 placement. But, in SC2 he's been extremely powerful and extremely crafty. I think this kid has what it takes to become one of the top SC2 players in the world, if he tries hard enough. I love IdrA and his complaints aren't unfounded, but Morrow is an excellent player who's shown results from beta and especially now... So even IdrA can't deny him of that (even though that reaper shit was/is lame).
DjWheat's content is abso-fucking-lutely amazing. I started out just watching WOC w' Chill as co-host but then I started watching LO3 (live on 3) and Epilectic Gaming and call and brawl... Holy shit man this guy really knows his shit, and if he doesn't he actually LISTENS to people who do know what they're talking about. It's excellent stuff and you MUST watch it if you're in to gaming at all (especially Weapon of Choice for strictly SC2 nerds). Day9's shows are amazing as well but Wheat's are different but just as entertaining as Day9 dailies.
|
On August 23 2010 11:46 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. they get countered by more reapers :D The point of "mass queens" is NOT to win against the Reapers, but rather keeping them busy while not losing defensive units to the aggression (and thus having to rebuild them = wasted resources). Having these solid and long-lived defenders like Spine Crawlers and Queens will buy the Zerg enough time to build up lots of economy and / or to get Mutalisks out quickly. If you manage that you practically win against the squishy Reapers, because they cant shoot back. If the Terran "answers" this threat by getting Marines, Thors or Vikings he is watering down the Reaper aggression so that it becomes useless. In all cases it is a win for the Zerg because they survived the aggression and the Terran has to figure out what to do with the surviving Reapers. The logical tech switch for Terrans is obviously Marauders because they can demolish a base rather fast and with their high hp they can survive decently, but since you are already getting Mutalisks to counter Reapers you have a good head start of useful units to counter them. Obviously Mutalisks arent great against Marauders, but they can always put pressure back on the Terran to force him to build defenses. With your high number of Queens you already have a good supply of heals for your Mutas, so the advantage is on your side.
|
On August 24 2010 18:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:46 FindingPride wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. they get countered by more reapers :D The point of "mass queens" is NOT to win against the Reapers, but rather keeping them busy while not losing defensive units to the aggression (and thus having to rebuild them = wasted resources). Having these solid and long-lived defenders like Spine Crawlers and Queens will buy the Zerg enough time to build up lots of economy and / or to get Mutalisks out quickly. If you manage that you practically win against the squishy Reapers, because they cant shoot back. If the Terran "answers" this threat by getting Marines, Thors or Vikings he is watering down the Reaper aggression so that it becomes useless. In all cases it is a win for the Zerg because they survived the aggression and the Terran has to figure out what to do with the surviving Reapers. The logical tech switch for Terrans is obviously Marauders because they can demolish a base rather fast and with their high hp they can survive decently, but since you are already getting Mutalisks to counter Reapers you have a good head start of useful units to counter them. Obviously Mutalisks arent great against Marauders, but they can always put pressure back on the Terran to force him to build defenses. With your high number of Queens you already have a good supply of heals for your Mutas, so the advantage is on your side.
Idra should have hired you to give him some pointers, seeing how you have it all figured out.
If mass speedlings/roaches aren't going to counter this, what makes you think an even squishier extra queen will? Reapers can micro against them just as well, and murder them, even faster than they can roaches. Then fast tech to a spire, while doing all of this? tell me how are we getting queens out, and teching a lair at the same time? are you playing the same game? Basically you are banking on the terran doing absolutely nothing but building reapers, not teching or expanding AT ALL himself, and somehow the queens... (and did you really suggest crawlers?!) are going to hold them off better than roaches and speedlings, to magically afford a spire... have you EVER played as zerg?
|
Stop mentioning spine crawlers, they would die to 1-3 volleys, and be an utter waste of mineral
|
On August 24 2010 18:27 AdamFox wrote: Yeah, it was an extremely interesting interview. I knew of the flame that Morrow got, especially for his TSL2 placement. But, in SC2 he's been extremely powerful and extremely crafty. I think this kid has what it takes to become one of the top SC2 players in the world, if he tries hard enough. I love IdrA and his complaints aren't unfounded, but Morrow is an excellent player who's shown results from beta and especially now... So even IdrA can't deny him of that (even though that reaper shit was/is lame).
DjWheat's content is abso-fucking-lutely amazing. I started out just watching WOC w' Chill as co-host but then I started watching LO3 (live on 3) and Epilectic Gaming and call and brawl... Holy shit man this guy really knows his shit, and if he doesn't he actually LISTENS to people who do know what they're talking about. It's excellent stuff and you MUST watch it if you're in to gaming at all (especially Weapon of Choice for strictly SC2 nerds). Day9's shows are amazing as well but Wheat's are different but just as entertaining as Day9 dailies.
I definitely agree with you that Morrow is a good player, and anyone who criticizes him for using the tools that are given, unbalanced or not, is an idiot. They are not playing this game for fun, they are playing to win, to make a living. If you don't use every tool at your disposal, within the boundaries of the game, you are just a moron.
|
On August 24 2010 18:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:46 FindingPride wrote:On August 23 2010 11:37 Zalfor wrote: get more queens. thats the answer imo. stop complaining. they get countered by more reapers :D The point of "mass queens" is NOT to win against the Reapers, but rather keeping them busy while not losing defensive units to the aggression (and thus having to rebuild them = wasted resources).
Its not the reapers being the problem if you amss queens. You will loose horrible vs the marauder push specially because they are totally awesome vs queens. Building mass queens will even be a worse resource waste. This is also the reason roaches are so bad defending the reapers, the marauder push will simply totally own you.
|
dimaga looks handsome..definitely a pussy magnet in if he moved to korea:D
|
On August 24 2010 12:50 imPERSONater wrote: Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D
And I do agree reapers are very hard to deal with. The only redeeming quality of that opening is it almost forces the terran to do a bio build after (if it gets held off). I think all zergs would agree they would MUCH rather face bio than mech at this point. If the reapers were made a little less powerful I it seems fine to stay in the game imo. If I had to fix it, I would make their range = to a roach, or lower movement speed so they couldn't infinitely kite the roaches. it was more like dimaga had 3 good reasons to help me: 1: he wanted to world to see how terran is imba 2: if idra lost then it wouldnt make dimaga look as "bad" to lose against me 3: dimaga had a zvt for 3rd place and i dont think he could found a better practice partner than me to prepare for it so he tells me more in detail how i should tech switch depending on what zerg does and more in detail, while i already knew the base structures of the build from talking to demu artosis and other ppl. so yes we teamwork so i can win finals and he can win 3rd place
nobody is just manner and helps someone in the finals for no reason, he cheered for zerg user but wanted terran to win for other reasons :D regarless the reasons im still very happy to have madfrog haypro dimaga and other zergs just be there for me before the finals and just help me
if u 1base muta seems good vs mass reaper, but terran scouts it and switch to marine ghost on 1base and they can own u hard :D reapers create more issues in this game than solving, they are mostly just cool but dont really make gameplay better at all. if u ask me it would help if they got nerfed for the early stages and lets say get a new upgrade for late game like spider mines (im not saying they should get spider mines im just saying they should get some purpose to be built in later game) or whatever to make them viable there. they can jump up and down cliffs but that doesnt mean its a brilliantly designed unit, infact its pretty much the most obvious and straight forward unit in the game with so few dynamics
|
MODedit: There a reason there were bans issued for that, and you decide it's a good idea to repost it?
User was temp banned for this post.
|
So MorroW, from your perspective, what would be the best Zerg response to this build until Blizzard patches it?
|
On August 24 2010 22:15 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 12:50 imPERSONater wrote: Interesting to hear Dimaga helped MorroW out and really a great display of sportsmanship. I guess Dimaga really is the nicest person in the world :D
And I do agree reapers are very hard to deal with. The only redeeming quality of that opening is it almost forces the terran to do a bio build after (if it gets held off). I think all zergs would agree they would MUCH rather face bio than mech at this point. If the reapers were made a little less powerful I it seems fine to stay in the game imo. If I had to fix it, I would make their range = to a roach, or lower movement speed so they couldn't infinitely kite the roaches. it was more like dimaga had 3 good reasons to help me: 1: he wanted to world to see how terran is imba 2: if idra lost then it wouldnt make dimaga look as "bad" to lose against me 3: dimaga had a zvt for 3rd place and i dont think he could found a better practice partner than me to prepare for it so he tells me more in detail how i should tech switch depending on what zerg does and more in detail, while i already knew the base structures of the build from talking to demu artosis and other ppl. so yes we teamwork so i can win finals and he can win 3rd place nobody is just manner and helps someone in the finals for no reason, he cheered for zerg user but wanted terran to win for other reasons :D regarless the reasons im still very happy to have madfrog haypro dimaga and other zergs just be there for me before the finals and just help me if u 1base muta seems good vs mass reaper, but terran scouts it and switch to marine ghost on 1base and they can own u hard :D reapers create more issues in this game than solving, they are mostly just cool but dont really make gameplay better at all. if u ask me it would help if they got nerfed for the early stages and lets say get a new upgrade for late game like spider mines (im not saying they should get spider mines im just saying they should get some purpose to be built in later game) or whatever to make them viable there. they can jump up and down cliffs but that doesnt mean its a brilliantly designed unit, infact its pretty much the most obvious and straight forward unit in the game with so few dynamics
holy shit that PM in your sig o_0 fucking psycho!
|
On August 24 2010 22:48 Sieziggy wrote: So MorroW, from your perspective, what would be the best Zerg response to this build until Blizzard patches it? my guess would be making a spine in the natural getting about 4 queens that can stall reapers and win extra time and spread creep really quickly. i guess its better to save time letting them attack ur queen than wasting low numbers of zerglings. also these few roaches are tough but still they will only win time until u get many roaches but they will still die so yea, i believe some extra queen(s) for the healing power.
and meanwhile ur taking all blows with this either tech to lair and get speed roach or simply mass up lings, but ithink getting lair and roaches is best. so basically how idra plays, but instead of getting all these roaches and lings early on try to hold it off with queens roach spine.
massing up lings to get a good surround is only gonna work vs failing terrans and against better terrans they save a little time but u mostly just lose alot of money on the lings that die in 2 attacks
its really hard to say tho but tbh extra many queens along with roaches should really be effective to heal and survive alot without taking too much damage before speed is done on roach and then ur in good shape.
but the thing is terran see this and switch to 5rax marauders get stim and shells and can just destroy u, i think more zergs should try to put overlords on the map so they can see what terran is making in a healthy time
the entire situation is just really dirty tho and im not gonna try to say "just do this nps" because im sure all these top zergs has tried everything
|
It sucks that Idra has such a terrible personality, he cannot take losing well at all. It would have been better if he had said, "Ahhh, I took one game away from him, but in the end he played well and won the tournament." But instead he stands there in typical nerd rage fashion and is absolutely LIVID when he answers the host's question.
I think e-sports and online games in general have a bad enough stigma towards "nerd rage", and I think having pro gamers act this way doesn't help develop the scene in a positive way at all.
That said I like Idra's play style, and his dedication to the sport, just not his entitled/cocky attitude and the way he behaves at tournaments. Sure, he's won a some tournaments, but the SC2 competitive scene is still so small. Before he starts walking around like he is unstoppable he needs to actually BE unstoppable. This was the biggest tournament so far, and what does he do? He rage quits early from a few games and then acts like a 5 year old on the main stage afterward. I wasn't sure whether he was going to burst into tears or into flames during that post game interview.
All in all I hope Idra is sitting back in Korea drinking a few beers and relaxing. He needs to blow off some steam and get his shit together. I hope he comes back with more passion to win then ever, and hopefully a more humble attitude...
|
Thanks for giving your own insight... I like the fact that you don't think there is just some magical counter.. and besides every game is different.
The top tier zerg players will find a way to beat it eventually.. it just may come with sacrificing something they are used to doing... like FE.
|
On August 24 2010 23:00 MorroW wrote: but the thing is terran see this and switch to 5rax marauders get stim and shells and can just destroy u, i think more zergs should try to put overlords on the map so they can see what terran is making in a healthy time
the entire situation is just really dirty tho and im not gonna try to say "just do this nps" because im sure all these top zergs has tried everything
Yeah, that seems to be the crux of the problem. Not only does the opening knock the zerg off their macro game, but it pushes them into a very predictable army comp. Even if they try to get cute with you, you're in their base non-stop so it's pretty hard to be sneaky. = /
|
@ MorroW
I hope you can answer some of my questions because I never ever got a chance to ask the pros about it.^^
So besides the TvZ Balance etc. I would like to know what you think of the TvP Balance in general. Yesterday I saw the IEM game of Lucifron vs HasuObs and Hasu was absolutly demolished by mass marauders + shells. HasObs tried everything...Storm, Colossis, Phoenixes but it didn' t work for him. I think he even raged quitted after the second game.
So iam really like to see your opinion of EMP's , Marauders and so on.^^
|
Luci's marauder control was amazing, to be fair.
|
On August 24 2010 23:19 n0xi3 wrote: The top tier zerg players will find a way to beat it eventually.. it just may come with sacrificing something they are used to doing... like FE.
well the thing is when T does this mass rax reaper into FE build it forces the zerg to play a certain way if the game isnt gonna end right there. If both players play flawless from there on the terran will always come out on top ECO and tech wise (as in having 5 rax with addons ready when opponent has been forced to go roaches to fend of the reapers, not that the zerg necessarely is gonna keep making roaches though). Like morrow said himself, the build provides map control (zerg really cant move outside of his base), pressures and potentially cripples the zerg, and then the FE with the nice marauder transition (or transition into whatever necessary) if zerg has gone the path hes pretty much forced to do. Because once reapers hit that critical number, they pretty much kill endless amount of lings.
3 rax into fe also works, i mean deny scouting overlord with building 1 marine and u could be able to make the zerg way overreact while u instead actually go for a faster FE, etc.
We have seen some games where the terran hasnt necessarely come out on top after this opening, but that has always been because of some major mistake like unecessarily going into a zerg main at a bad moment with the reapers getting trapped etc. You dont even necessarely need to kill any drones (chances are you will though), the damege still is being done by the zerg just doing what he needs to do to survive the early game.
However it might also come down to the maps. Obviously maps with cliffs really close to main and natural and with alot of cliff area is extra good for the tactic. going FE as a zerg on LT vs this 5 rax reaper build.. i seriously cant see how the zerg can come out of that even close to even if the terran handles it correctly. And every map for some reason have their watch towers on a cliff or next to a cliff.
I think the solution is to change the reapers in the way morrow suggested, basicly making them less good early game but with some upgrade or so for mid or lategame usage. This, combined with balancing maps so that they dont necessarily look like LT.
|
Thank you MorroW for adding a great deal of value to this discussion.
|
Thanks MorroW for posting here and congrats on your win.
I'll try to make 5rax FE reapers work in platinum, in case Blizz patches them in the future.
|
On August 24 2010 23:12 Looonski wrote: It sucks that Idra has such a terrible personality, he cannot take losing well at all. It would have been better if he had said, "Ahhh, I took one game away from him, but in the end he played well and won the tournament." But instead he stands there in typical nerd rage fashion and is absolutely LIVID when he answers the host's question.
I think e-sports and online games in general have a bad enough stigma towards "nerd rage", and I think having pro gamers act this way doesn't help develop the scene in a positive way at all.
That said I like Idra's play style, and his dedication to the sport, just not his entitled/cocky attitude and the way he behaves at tournaments. Sure, he's won a some tournaments, but the SC2 competitive scene is still so small. Before he starts walking around like he is unstoppable he needs to actually BE unstoppable. This was the biggest tournament so far, and what does he do? He rage quits early from a few games and then acts like a 5 year old on the main stage afterward. I wasn't sure whether he was going to burst into tears or into flames during that post game interview.
All in all I hope Idra is sitting back in Korea drinking a few beers and relaxing. He needs to blow off some steam and get his shit together. I hope he comes back with more passion to win then ever, and hopefully a more humble attitude...
You do realize that IdrA got beat by the same bullshit play he's been complaining about since release, right?
He has every right to be pissed, especially after it cost him a few thousand dollars.
No offense to Morrow, as he did a perfect job executing his reaper play, (I would even say he was the only one to do it right in the whole tourney) but it really did show how bad the whole situation is for Zerg in general. MorroW executed the strategy perfectly multiple times, then fakes IdrA out for the last game really showing that the fact that Reapers exist, whether used or not, gives Terran a GIANT advantage through the entire early game and into the mid-game.
Every day that Blizzard holds off on this balance patch is another dollar lost for IdrA. Rage away.
|
On August 25 2010 15:04 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 23:12 Looonski wrote: It sucks that Idra has such a terrible personality, he cannot take losing well at all. It would have been better if he had said, "Ahhh, I took one game away from him, but in the end he played well and won the tournament." But instead he stands there in typical nerd rage fashion and is absolutely LIVID when he answers the host's question.
I think e-sports and online games in general have a bad enough stigma towards "nerd rage", and I think having pro gamers act this way doesn't help develop the scene in a positive way at all.
That said I like Idra's play style, and his dedication to the sport, just not his entitled/cocky attitude and the way he behaves at tournaments. Sure, he's won a some tournaments, but the SC2 competitive scene is still so small. Before he starts walking around like he is unstoppable he needs to actually BE unstoppable. This was the biggest tournament so far, and what does he do? He rage quits early from a few games and then acts like a 5 year old on the main stage afterward. I wasn't sure whether he was going to burst into tears or into flames during that post game interview.
All in all I hope Idra is sitting back in Korea drinking a few beers and relaxing. He needs to blow off some steam and get his shit together. I hope he comes back with more passion to win then ever, and hopefully a more humble attitude... You do realize that IdrA got beat by the same bullshit play he's been complaining about since release, right? He has every right to be pissed, especially after it cost him a few thousand dollars. No offense to Morrow, as he did a perfect job executing his reaper play, (I would even say he was the only one to do it right in the whole tourney) but it really did show how bad the whole situation is for Zerg in general. MorroW executed the strategy perfectly multiple times, then fakes IdrA out for the last game really showing that the fact that Reapers exist, whether used or not, gives Terran a GIANT advantage through the entire early game and into the mid-game. Every day that Blizzard holds off on this balance patch is another dollar lost for IdrA. Rage away.
You've made several assumptions: - That IdrA is entitled to win. - Even if the game is imbalanced, making a jerk out of yourself and acting like somebody "stole" your victory is OK.
Personally, I think he made a total arse out of himself, and it looked disgusting. If we want eSport to be taken more seriously, we need to show more sportsmanship. IdrA is just an terrible example of what we should not do.
|
You're making the assumption that I think he's entitled to win. Not at all.
What I am saying is he lost 2 of his 3 games to a build that he has already pointed out several times puts the terran player in such an advantageous position that it is almost impossible to win against when executed properly.
MorroW executed it properly and he deserves to have the win just as much.
My complaint is that there was no game here. We watched Reapers, nothing but Reapers take out roaches, lings, queens, and a hatchery in 3 games followed by a 4th where (again MorroW did a good job hiding that he WASN'T going Reapers, but it didn't matter) IdrA has to assume Reapers anyway, just in case, and instead gets rofl'd over by Marauders.
I am not knocking MorroW in any way. He took advantage of the options available and his play was spectacular. But as a spectator, I have no interest in watching mass Reapers win every game of TvZ forever-more. It's not that IdrA is entitled to win, its that spectators SHOULD be entitled to see more than just Reapers owning everything in a TvZ.
Let me put it another way.
Game 1 was interesting from both sides. I saw MorroW going Reapers and leaned in a little bit. I knew they could be effective after watching LZ, but I've also seen so many pros fail to execute it. Its obviously pretty hard to do properly. He beat the crap out of IdrA, and I was blown away. By the time game 2 came around, I was look for IdrAs adjustment to account for the Reapers more, and as my StarCraft wheels were turning, I saw that there was no adjustment he could feasibly make. His lings were a waste of money, and his Roaches were ineffective at best. Spine crawlers would be laughable and queens would just be slower, more ineffective Roaches, let's not even talk about banelings. At that point, I realized that the next 2 games were going to be boring, gg MorroW. IdrA somehow pulled a miracle win out of his ass but it didn't make me any more excited for the continuing beat-down, and we move on to game 4 with me having lost interest. Game 4 was mildly entertaining as MorroW was hiding his Marauders, but over way too fast as IdrA had no answer to MorroWs all-in. If I had paid money to see those matches, I wouldn't be showing up to the next one as it just wasn't fun to watch.
If you want to talk about things that are bad for the sport, talk about Reapers. 1 unit domination is very bad for an RTS.
For your second point, I'm not saying everything is imbalanced, please don't act like I am, and I'm not really sure what it has to do with IdrA being an ass, seems to belong more with point number one... anyway.
He SHOULD be pissed that he lost. I would love for somebody to throw a chair after they lose a championship match, that would be good TV.
IdrA plays the badboy perfectly, and as a fan and spectator I am always waiting for him to blow up on everybody. I <3 IdrA-rage, and I <3 that him not saying gg makes people freak out. Nothing is going to bring more attention to a sport than some dude throwing a fit every time he loses, if you need an example, look up Phil Hellmuth on youtube and compare with any other pro from his sport, he has more interesting clips and more hits on those clips specifically because of his poor attitude.
The kind of drama that IdrA brings to the game is nothing but good and I, personally, am awaiting his next rage.
|
Here's now I see it: IdrA was matched up against 3 reaper rush games. He lost 2, won 1.
The last game was a brilliant play from Morrow, he did an amazing job guarding against overlord scout with just a marine and hiding his forces. IdrA was absolutely lost and had no idea what to do.
Sure, all IdrA wanted was macroing up, controlling the map and play his normal game which Zerg is best at. Terran needs some weapons to combat against this; though I do share your opinion that reapers are a bit too powerful.
However, crying and coming off as a pathetic loser doesn't help IdrA's image, and it doesn't advance the debate.
|
On August 24 2010 23:00 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 22:48 Sieziggy wrote: So MorroW, from your perspective, what would be the best Zerg response to this build until Blizzard patches it? my guess would be making a spine in the natural getting about 4 queens that can stall reapers and win extra time and spread creep really quickly. i guess its better to save time letting them attack ur queen than wasting low numbers of zerglings. also these few roaches are tough but still they will only win time until u get many roaches but they will still die so yea, i believe some extra queen(s) for the healing power. and meanwhile ur taking all blows with this either tech to lair and get speed roach or simply mass up lings, but ithink getting lair and roaches is best. so basically how idra plays, but instead of getting all these roaches and lings early on try to hold it off with queens roach spine. massing up lings to get a good surround is only gonna work vs failing terrans and against better terrans they save a little time but u mostly just lose alot of money on the lings that die in 2 attacks its really hard to say tho but tbh extra many queens along with roaches should really be effective to heal and survive alot without taking too much damage before speed is done on roach and then ur in good shape. but the thing is terran see this and switch to 5rax marauders get stim and shells and can just destroy u, i think more zergs should try to put overlords on the map so they can see what terran is making in a healthy time the entire situation is just really dirty tho and im not gonna try to say "just do this nps" because im sure all these top zergs has tried everything
Funny that you say "do more scouting" after you dnied any sort of scouting to idra in the finals. Its nearly impossible to scout a good Terran. And as Zerg you are forced to prepare to LOTS of stuff the Terran could do to you! This sucks even more as the stupid reaper harass in early game, imho.
greets
|
|
|
|