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United States12175 Posts
Since the release of SC2 I've noticed a lot of recurring -- in fact, frequently asked -- questions regarding the ladder system. This thread is intended to address those questions. Please use this thread in conjunction with the Ladder Analysis threads in order to better understand the ladder.
SC2 Ladder Analysis Part 1: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118212 SC2 Ladder Analysis Part 2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142211 SC2 Ladder Analysis: Division Tiers: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169830 SC2 Master League Information: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=183626
League Information
Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division? A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week. A green arrow means that the player has increased in rank within the division since last week. A red arrow means the player has fallen in rank within the division since last week. A dash (--) means no change in rank since last week despite games played. You can hover over each icon in-game to view the player's previous rank or division join date from the in-game ladder browser.
Q: Will the ladder be divided into seasons? A: Yes, eventually. The length of a season has not been announced by Blizzard, but all ratings are expected to be wiped at that time. MMR will persist across seasons.
Matchmaking
Q: I'm only in Silver, so why am I being matched against Platinum players? A: Two possible answers: either your MMR is too high for your current league, or your opponents' MMRs are too low for their current league. Look at your match history. Are you commonly being matched against players from higher leagues? If so, you have an opportunity for promotion. Look at your opponents' match histories. Are they commonly being matched against players from lower leagues? If so, they are at risk of demotion.
Q: If I've never played 1v1, but I'm 2v2 Diamond, who will I face in 1v1 Placements? A: Your performance in other brackets is considered when initially seeding your placement matches. In this case, you'd likely be paired with a Diamond player to start.
Q: What does Favored/Slightly Favored/Teams Even mean on the loading screen? A: Favored status compares your opponent's hidden MMR with your displayed rating. If his MMR and your displayed rating are similar, it will show Teams Even and the match will be worth 10-14 points. If his MMR is slightly higher than your displayed rating, it will show your opponent as Slightly Favored and the match will be worth 15-19 points for a win (5-9 for a loss). If his MMR is significantly higher than your displayed rating, it will show your opponent as Favored and the match will be worth 20-24 points (0-4 for a loss).
Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored? A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating.
Q: I'm in Bronze with 0 rating and a poor win ratio. I'm only getting 2 or 4 or 6 points -- including bonus pool -- for a win, but losing 22 points for a loss! Why is this happening, and how will I possibly get above 0 rating as long as this is happening to me? Fixed in 1.3 A: This one was tough to figure out because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the surface. Point gains and losses that are that extreme can only mean that you're Favored in every single match, but how is that possible if you're already in Bronze with 0 rating? The answer is that your MMR can go below Bronze 0. Because your rating -- which is zero -- is higher than your MMR which is somewhere far below zero, you will constantly be Favored. Because of the way MMR gains work, however, as long as you maintain a positive win ratio, you will eventually find matches where you are Slightly Favored and ultimately Teams Even and beyond. At that point, you will start to gain more points than you lose. Speculation: This may be a remnant from Beta, either from when Copper league was removed or when players started at 0 rating when they used to start at 1000 rating. It could be that Bronze 0 is equal to Beta's 1000 rating (and therefore Bronze 0 = 1000 MMR).
More info: Allowing MMR to dip below the minimum point value is one way to help ensure that inflation beyond the bonus pool does not occur. The player who loses will have his MMR dip below Bronze Zero, which will cause him to be Favored in every matchup and therefore, because points drift toward MMR, he will remain at zero. This means that any points that are gained are quickly taken away by any losses, thus vacuuming up any points that would have been not really "earned" by the points floor until his MMR rises above the equivalence of Bronze Zero. This stops the production of extra points from the floor of 0.
More broadly, your points drift towards your MMR. Because of this mechanism any inflation that occurs will be counteracted by the game outcomes. That is, if point inflation in fact existed, then your points would eventually outpace your MMR and you would then start gaining less points on a win and losing more points on a loss, thereby negating any "inflation" that might occur. Note that this assumes that MMR does not inflate.
EDIT: Oh hey looks like this is a bug: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980513?page=2#29
...what you're experiencing is indeed a bug and we're in the process of developing a fix. We wanted to make sure that you and any other players experiencing this don't get discouraged. The fix will require you to keep playing once it's applied for it to resolve the cycle you're in, so we hope you'll continue doing just that.
Promotion and Demotion
Q: Do I need to be first in my division to get promoted, or last in my division to get demoted? A: No! Your rank is a result of your displayed rating and is not relevant to any promotion chances or demotion risks.
Q: Do I need to reach a particular point value to get promoted? A: No. Promotions happen independently of your displayed rating.
Q: I've been at rank 1 in my division forever, why haven't I been promoted? A: Take a look at your match history. If you're commonly facing opponents from your league, then you're right where you should be. If you're commonly facing opponents from higher leagues, you may be promoted once your MMR's moving average reaches a certain league threshold.
Q: I won 10 games in a row! Why am I not promoted yet? A: Your MMR and moving average may not have reached stability, or the system is simply unconfident about you. Expected outcomes cause you to stabilize the fastest. Your MMR will continue to rise until you hit your skill ceiling, at which point your win ratio will decrease and your rating will start to stabilize.
Q: Do I need to lose 7 games before being promoted? A: No. There is not much point to gaming the system. Play as you would normally and if you belong in Diamond you will be promoted within a very reasonable number of games. People are regularly promoted with < 7 losses. People like CauthonLuck are significant outliers and you will almost certainly not have his problem.
Q: I'm in Bronze. Is it possible to get promoted directly to Gold? A: Yes. It's possible to go from any league to any other league, wherever your MMR and sigma stabilize. Viewing your match history and the profiles of your opponents should clue you in to where you're likely to be promoted next.
EDIT 3/14: Internal changes to the ladder system appear to have prevented "league skipping". The system is a little more aggressive about promoting players into new leagues, now.
Q: I just lost a game but I got promoted, how is this possible? A: The system evaluates a trend of games, not just the most recent game. The answer is always the same: your MMR and sigma have stabilized and your moving average has come to rest within the boundaries of a higher league, and that loss contributed to your stability because it was an expected outcome.
Q: Is it possible I haven't been promoted because my APM or end-game score isn't high enough? A: Both factors are irrelevant because they can be gamed. The only contributing factor to promotion is the end outcome (win or loss) and the skill level of your opponent (his MMR). This is confirmed by Blizzard's Leagues and Ladders FAQ, found in a sticky at the top of the Multiplayer and eSports forum.
Bonus Pool
Q: How do I increase my bonus pool? Do I have to not play? A: Your bonus pool increases at the same rate regardless of whether or not you're playing. The rate of gain is about 1 point per 2 hours. More accurately, 1 point per 112 minutes.
Q: If I start a new team, won't my bonus pool be smaller than teams that have been active for a month? A: The bonus pool total is the same for everyone. If a team was created last month and has accumulated 600 bonus pool, your new team will start with 600 bonus pool. The total bonus pool accumulates from launch day, meaning regardless of your account creation date, division join date, or whatever, it will be equal to everyone else's total.
Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: It has been confirmed that the bonus pool is not factored into any MMR or displayed rating calculations.
New Questions
Q: I haven't read the Ladder Analysis threads linked above, but I totally will, I promise. MMR? Sigma? What do these terms mean? A: MMR stands for Matchmaking Rating, and it's a hidden value that determines your opponents. MMR fluctuates greatly based on your wins and losses to various players, far more than your displayed rating. Sigma is the statistical symbol for standard deviation, and it represents an uncertainty factor (because not everyone plays at the same skill level all the time). Sigma determines your range of opponents.
EDIT 10/25/2010: Made several clarifications in light of information gained from Blizzcon 2010.
EDIT 3/14/2011: Noted that "league skipping" is no longer possible and that system promotions are slightly more aggressive than before.
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thanks, this should definitely get stickied!
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this is really interesting, and i've read the analysis posts.
but i have to ask, is this info just kind of intellectually thumbsucked by you?
i mean, aren't you essentially guessing how the system works?
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Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.
edit: @ above most of this data has been figured out and tested in multiple sources you can find most of this on liquipedia plus unofficial confirmations from other sources etc etc he's just consolidating the information
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United States12175 Posts
On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.
It's actually more fundamental than that: it accumulates from launch day. Point well taken, though, I'll make the edit.
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No new info here for me, but a great FAQ for all parties needing help with the Ladder system. Great post!
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wtf does MMR mean? Match Making RatinG? N what does that mean still
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On September 05 2010 14:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating. It's actually more fundamental than that: it accumulates from launch day. Point well taken, though, I'll make the edit.
Are you sure about that? Because in the beta when I didnt register my account name for a few days after it came back up it didnt start accumulating until I actually made an account name and logged in. I placed immediately and had 0 bonus pool. Like if someone buys the game right now and registers they have 600 points?
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United States12175 Posts
On September 05 2010 15:01 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 14:59 Excalibur_Z wrote:On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating. It's actually more fundamental than that: it accumulates from launch day. Point well taken, though, I'll make the edit. Are you sure about that? Because in the beta when I didnt register my account name for a few days after it came back up it didnt start accumulating until I actually made an account name and logged in. I placed immediately and had 0 bonus pool. Like if someone buys the game right now and registers they have 600 points?
Yep. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to new users.
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Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control.
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On September 05 2010 15:01 EternaLEnVy wrote: wtf does MMR mean? Match Making RatinG? N what does that mean still
It's an undisplayed guess that the system is making of your "true skill" that doesn't have the build up time that your points take. It's used to match you against other players. The more games you play, the more confident the system becomes in its guess, which is why it takes time to move between leagues, it only moves you once it reaches a certain level of confidence that that's where your skill is.
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On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control.
I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose.
One source of inflation that might exist though is a new player effect. If you assume that players who are starting out online now are in general not very skilled (they were less excited than people who started at launch, or are just new and thus not good), they are adding points and MMR to the system but then not winning much of it off other players (donating MMR increases to existing players), especially if they don't stick around and practice and start winning a lot later.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 05 2010 14:56 Subversion wrote: this is really interesting, and i've read the analysis posts.
but i have to ask, is this info just kind of intellectually thumbsucked by you?
i mean, aren't you essentially guessing how the system works?
Essentially. However, we've seen each of these theories validated (or at the least, not disproven). I'll continue to update the original post in the event of erroneous information, but I'm pretty confident that everything in there so far is accurate.
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Osaka26942 Posts
Nice work, put it in the spotlight. Now for the hundreds of "wah Im not in diamond" threads I can just link here.
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I think one of the key points I've noticed just by observation and would be curious to see if this tests to hold up true is that the system will intentionally set you in unbalanced matchups early on in the matchmaking to try and find your range faster. IE when you first finish placements it seems like every game is vs a player who is strongly favored to win, whenever I go on a winning streak this continues until I start to lose a few games then suddenly I get matched vs a lot of slightly favored opponents in a row.
This represents the matchmaking system becoming more certain of itself so the concept that the ladder actually tries to find you the best possible match (ie evenly matched) seems to be a little bit false as it seems like it likes to throw you into unbalanced matchups to more quickly determine which bracket you truly belong in.
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Very useful and informative, thanks lots man ^_^
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United States12175 Posts
On September 05 2010 15:08 ZapRoffo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control. I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose.
We believe that it's precisely because the bonus pool total is the same for everyone that it becomes an easily-ignored universal variable. This would mean constant inflation (of course, MMRs would not inflate) up until either some very large cap, or straight through to the end of the season. I should probably add that to the FAQ, as well as the fact that there will be seasons.
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Wow didn't know bonus pool accumulates from launch day...
Then kids who buy the game months from now will have like 2k in their bonus pool.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 05 2010 15:18 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: I think one of the key points I've noticed just by observation and would be curious to see if this tests to hold up true is that the system will intentionally set you in unbalanced matchups early on in the matchmaking to try and find your range faster. IE when you first finish placements it seems like every game is vs a player who is strongly favored to win, whenever I go on a winning streak this continues until I start to lose a few games then suddenly I get matched vs a lot of slightly favored opponents in a row.
This represents the matchmaking system becoming more certain of itself so the concept that the ladder actually tries to find you the best possible match (ie evenly matched) seems to be a little bit false as it seems like it likes to throw you into unbalanced matchups to more quickly determine which bracket you truly belong in.
It's important here to distinguish between what favored means in terms of actual matchmaking versus what it means on the loading screen.
The system will always try to find you even matchups based on how large your sigma is. If it's large, the range of potential opponents increases. If it's small, you'll get closer matches.
As far as what it says on the loading screen, that compares your opponent's MMR to your displayed rating, and your displayed rating may not be close to your MMR (or your opponent's, by extension). Because your MMR starts at some nonzero level while your displayed rating does not, it's common for you to see Favored on most or all of your starting matches. If you went on a win streak then lost some, your MMR would naturally be closer to your displayed rating than it was previously, and your sigma would also likely be smaller, which means you'll see more Even/Slightly Favored games than Favored.
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really appreciate all the work and research you've put into this excalibur, its amazing
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Q: I'm only in Silver, so why am I being matched against Platinum players? A: Two possible answers: either your MMR is too high for your current league, or your opponents' MMRs are too low for their current league. Look at your match history. Are you commonly being matched against players from higher leagues? If so, you have an opportunity for promotion. Look at your opponents' match histories. Are they commonly being matched against players from lower leagues? If so, they are at risk of demotion.
Ah, this explains alot, thanks. I had played my placement matches yesterday, and was wondering why I got plat players all the time. Promoted to platinum now, +46 pt wins ftw .
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On September 05 2010 15:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 15:08 ZapRoffo wrote:On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control. I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose. We believe that it's precisely because the bonus pool total is the same for everyone that it becomes an easily-ignored universal variable. This would mean constant inflation (of course, MMRs would not inflate) up until either some very large cap, or straight through to the end of the season. I should probably add that to the FAQ, as well as the fact that there will be seasons.
So does this mean that points or points + division threshold will not tend to converge to MMR (disregarding bonus pool) at all? That's what you are implying. Otherwise there would be a growing downward pressure on points as the points rise and rise in relation to MMR.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 05 2010 15:57 ZapRoffo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 15:33 Excalibur_Z wrote:On September 05 2010 15:08 ZapRoffo wrote:On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control. I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose. We believe that it's precisely because the bonus pool total is the same for everyone that it becomes an easily-ignored universal variable. This would mean constant inflation (of course, MMRs would not inflate) up until either some very large cap, or straight through to the end of the season. I should probably add that to the FAQ, as well as the fact that there will be seasons. So does this mean that points or points + division threshold will not tend to converge to MMR (disregarding bonus pool) at all? That's what you are implying. Otherwise there would be a growing downward pressure on points as the points rise and rise in relation to MMR.
They still would, you would just ignore whatever number of bonus points have been consumed. Say you have a 1500 MMR and your points + league threshold is 1500 not factoring in bonus pool. Bonus pool would inflate your displayed rating by an amount, but that additional amount would not be considered in calculating point gain/loss or determining favored status on the loading screen.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 05 2010 15:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 15:18 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: I think one of the key points I've noticed just by observation and would be curious to see if this tests to hold up true is that the system will intentionally set you in unbalanced matchups early on in the matchmaking to try and find your range faster. IE when you first finish placements it seems like every game is vs a player who is strongly favored to win, whenever I go on a winning streak this continues until I start to lose a few games then suddenly I get matched vs a lot of slightly favored opponents in a row.
This represents the matchmaking system becoming more certain of itself so the concept that the ladder actually tries to find you the best possible match (ie evenly matched) seems to be a little bit false as it seems like it likes to throw you into unbalanced matchups to more quickly determine which bracket you truly belong in. It's important here to distinguish between what favored means in terms of actual matchmaking versus what it means on the loading screen. The system will always try to find you even matchups based on how large your sigma is. If it's large, the range of potential opponents increases. If it's small, you'll get closer matches. As far as what it says on the loading screen, that compares your opponent's MMR to your displayed rating, and your displayed rating may not be close to your MMR (or your opponent's, by extension). Because your MMR starts at some nonzero level while your displayed rating does not, it's common for you to see Favored on most or all of your starting matches. If you went on a win streak then lost some, your MMR would naturally be closer to your displayed rating than it was previously, and your sigma would also likely be smaller, which means you'll see more Even/Slightly Favored games than Favored. Do you have any idea which rating system the MMR is based on? The way you're describing it makes it sound like it might be on some accelerated Elo system completely unrelated to the rating system being displayed in game.
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Catyoul
France2377 Posts
On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Q: If I've never played 1v1, but I'm 2v2 Diamond, who will I face in 1v1 Placements? A: Your performance in other brackets is considered when initially seeding your placement matches. In this case, you'd likely be paired with a Diamond player to start.
I strongly suspected this, thanks for the confirmation !
On September 05 2010 20:08 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 15:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On September 05 2010 15:18 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: I think one of the key points I've noticed just by observation and would be curious to see if this tests to hold up true is that the system will intentionally set you in unbalanced matchups early on in the matchmaking to try and find your range faster. IE when you first finish placements it seems like every game is vs a player who is strongly favored to win, whenever I go on a winning streak this continues until I start to lose a few games then suddenly I get matched vs a lot of slightly favored opponents in a row.
This represents the matchmaking system becoming more certain of itself so the concept that the ladder actually tries to find you the best possible match (ie evenly matched) seems to be a little bit false as it seems like it likes to throw you into unbalanced matchups to more quickly determine which bracket you truly belong in. It's important here to distinguish between what favored means in terms of actual matchmaking versus what it means on the loading screen. The system will always try to find you even matchups based on how large your sigma is. If it's large, the range of potential opponents increases. If it's small, you'll get closer matches. As far as what it says on the loading screen, that compares your opponent's MMR to your displayed rating, and your displayed rating may not be close to your MMR (or your opponent's, by extension). Because your MMR starts at some nonzero level while your displayed rating does not, it's common for you to see Favored on most or all of your starting matches. If you went on a win streak then lost some, your MMR would naturally be closer to your displayed rating than it was previously, and your sigma would also likely be smaller, which means you'll see more Even/Slightly Favored games than Favored. Do you have any idea which rating system the MMR is based on? The way you're describing it makes it sound like it might be on some accelerated Elo system completely unrelated to the rating system being displayed in game. If we assume it is the same system as WoW, it is some variation of Bayesian inference. I'm thinking of writing a comparison of different rating systems. Elo is not the state of the art anymore and hasn't been for quite some years.
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People who buy the game in the future will more than likely have their bonus pool synchronized to the last season reset. This way, people who buy it in a year won't accumulate thousands of points. I'd imagine once the ladder season is reset the bonus pool will be as well, this means anyone that joins during the next season will have a bonus pool that is equivalent to anyone who had an account on day 1 of that season.
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What does MMR stand for? Match-Making Ranking? ..And is it possible to know what our MMR is?
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On September 05 2010 23:38 NeVeR wrote: What does MMR stand for? Match-Making Ranking? ..And is it possible to know what our MMR is?
Yes, you are correct and that;s the thing. You don't exactly know. It is like a hiding rating;]
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United States4126 Posts
This actually does clear up a lot of my misconceptions Thanks a lot for the hard work!
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With the current system, does it mean that it's impossible to find a stable and accurate measurement of skill based off the points system? Like 1000 points was considered pro level a couple of weeks ago, now the high is around 1800. I don't quite like that system since it's hard to pin point how good someone based off points unless you're up to date on the ladder scores.
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Yeah, this is my theory on how it works too. It's the only explanation I was able to come up with for why two people can see each other as favored.
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On September 05 2010 14:57 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Bonus pool starts accumulating when you create your account, you should clarify that even if you dont play any multiplayer it will still be accumulating.
edit: @ above most of this data has been figured out and tested in multiple sources you can find most of this on liquipedia plus unofficial confirmations from other sources etc etc he's just consolidating the information
ok cool
sorry i sounded a lot more trollish/ungrateful than i intended to =/
i do appreciate this insight into the system and the hard work that went into it!
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On September 06 2010 08:15 cHaNg-sTa wrote: With the current system, does it mean that it's impossible to find a stable and accurate measurement of skill based off the points system? Like 1000 points was considered pro level a couple of weeks ago, now the high is around 1800. I don't quite like that system since it's hard to pin point how good someone based off points unless you're up to date on the ladder scores.
Yes, the inflation is about 350 points/week, so 1800 point right now is equivalent to around 1100 points two weeks ago. There need to be some sort of incentive for the player to keep playing, in war3 this was with XP decay, for sc2 they have implemented inflation. But I agree with you that more accurate ratings would be ratings - total bonus pool. Maybe sc2ranks can implement this.
I am also wondering: can we guess what the average MMR is? Leagues complicate things, but we could try to look at the average of each leagues and substract the bonus pool to see what we get.
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On September 05 2010 15:08 ZapRoffo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 15:06 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Hmm thats interesting because I thought that was a mechanic to keep players who simply don't play as many games still in the picture ranking wise. Interesting that it accumulates like that for everyone now. I guess this means eventually they will have to do ladder wipes and resets splitting into seasons etc or else new users will have thousands of bonus points and the ladder point inflation would get a little out of control. I still think it will end up stabilizing because the higher points rise (assuming MMRs are not inflating), the less you win from your games and the more you lose.
I agree. in chess there's evidence of rating inflation but even so Kasparov still holds the highest ever rating of 2851 even though that record was set way back in 1999.
I don't know what rating the top ladder players will stabilize at, but it'll probably be something like 3000, and that's when I think it'll be easier to seperate the talented players from the lesser talented ones just by looking at the ladder ranking. If 3000 is the ceiling, I imagine B players would get around 2500, semipros will be 2600-2800, and the pros will be 2900-3000.
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Thanks for the post bro. People NEED to read this.
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confusion, i asked a question a while ago about having high # of games and having a 50-50 win/loss ratio ect...so are u saying (mainly from article 2 of ladder info) that more games with 50-50 it will b harder to promote vs less games and 5050 even with the checkpoint evaluations?
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I don't understand why the SC2 ladder system's reaction is so slow compared to war3 ladder system. I mean,if I'm beaten by a few platinum players (I myself in Gold league),why the hell am I matched with a diamond player? Only after I've got a terrible lose streak,can the system realize that it should match me some low MMR players. But by that time,I am beaten so hard that I can't even remember how to play normally. So you say it's my own problem?
However in War3 ladder match making system,I will be immediately matched with a player whose level is below mine if I have just lost a match. I think that one makes sense.
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On September 06 2010 13:26 bonedriven wrote:I don't understand why the SC2 ladder system's reaction is so slow compared to war3 ladder system. I mean,if I'm beaten by a few platinum players (I myself in Gold league),why the hell am I matched with a diamond player? Only after I've got a terrible lose streak,can the system realize that it should match me some low MMR players. But by that time,I am beaten so hard that I can't even remember how to play normally. So you say it's my own problem? However in War3 ladder match making system,I will be immediately matched with a player whose level is below mine if I have just lost a match. I think that one makes sense.
Sounds to me like you (on a promotion chance) played a diamond player (who is in a demotion chance.) Being matched against platinum the game thinks your ready to move up, you lose a few games so then it starts looking to put you against those who are on their way down to platinum to attempt to catch them from double demotion (diamond -> gold)
PS: Or maybe your in the "extending search crowd" playing someone because the system has no one to match you normally. The matchmaking system is getting worse for me this weekend where I'd win 5 straight, lose 5 straight...
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So I got promoted to Diamond with a really low total rating and am sitting at #100 in my division because I haven't played at all since. I've been really busy and I'm contemplating testing out your theory on demotion by just sitting at #100 and seeing if I get demoted for being last rank for too long or if it really is just based on the combination of MMR and the sigma. If it really is just MMR and sigma I theoretically will never get demoted if I don't play right?
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Two things:
1) Doesn't the exclamation point mean the player joined the division "this week"?
2) You say people have been promoted without having 7 losses. But you didn't specify what league you were talking about. I think the only time the 7 losses number is brought up is when people talk about being promoted to diamond. Have you seen people be promoted to diamond with less than 7 losses?
One more thing, nice info about the favored. I wondered how that worked, now it makes sense. And it's actually fairly logical. It's trying to force your point rating to follow your hidden rating.
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On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Q: If I've never played 1v1, but I'm 2v2 Diamond, who will I face in 1v1 Placements? A: Your performance in other brackets is considered when initially seeding your placement matches. In this case, you'd likely be paired with a Diamond player to start.
Ah, that explain a lot of what I was suspecting.
Really annoying when your partner is diamond then you try to go joke strats and get rolled and end up in bronze -___________-". Then you use the same joke strats for the next 10 games and win all of them.
The promotion system is pretty annoying though, I'm 21-9, facing 1k+ diamond players now and it still won't promote me -_-". Guess I need more games...
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As much as I appreciate the effort you've put into this and the quality of the information here.. it won't change anything.
There will still be idiots day in day out making new threads asking why they haven't been promoted out of gold because they won their last 5 games and they really really really feel like they should be in diamond.
Just like people who have no understanding at all of the system will still constantly post about how shitty it is and how it's obviously broken because they aren't where they think they should be. =/
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United States12175 Posts
On September 06 2010 12:18 Xma wrote: confusion, i asked a question a while ago about having high # of games and having a 50-50 win/loss ratio ect...so are u saying (mainly from article 2 of ladder info) that more games with 50-50 it will b harder to promote vs less games and 5050 even with the checkpoint evaluations?
I responded to your PM, but just so there's no confusion from anyone else I'll paste my response here:
Blizzard's offered very little information on this, aside from a single mention from the lead designer during a Best Buy livechat where he said you're re-evaluated "around 30 games". That does mirror what we've seen in tracking promotions, where there is a large spike of promotions occurring between 22-30 games played. Beyond that, it tapers off and there is no spike that occurs after that. This suggests to us that the 22-30 mark is either a forced checkpoint or a coincidence in players stabilizing. Beyond that, it's certainly based on players stabilizing in a new league.
I wouldn't worry about getting cemented into a league because the system is rather flexible when it comes to rapid changes in skill -- at least, much moreso than Microsoft's TrueSkill. There was a guy on the Bnet forums who was looking to get demoted from Platinum to Bronze, so he lost about 20 games in a row then went 50-50 for his next 10 games and got put into Silver. About 30 games to go from firmly Platinum (like 200 games played) to Silver, borderline Bronze. That's not too bad, and 200 games is certainly enough to get your sigma probably as small as it's going to get.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I really love these threads, thanks for continuing to make them. I have tons of friends who whine about the system and its nice to have a resource that explains whats going on.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 06 2010 13:46 Apollys wrote: Two things:
1) Doesn't the exclamation point mean the player joined the division "this week"?
That's what I thought it was at first, but turns out it's not. I had to revise that when I decided to browse some leagues and after hovering over the exclamation points I was still seeing "Joined: 8/2/2010" "Joined: 8/15/2010" which didn't fit with it meaning that they've joined this week. Ever since I got promoted, I only played 3 more 1v1 matches and that was in the same week as my promotion (about 2 or 3 weeks ago). I lost them all, which would have given me a red arrow the following week. I would have expected to have a dash for subsequent weeks, but it's still an exclamation point.
2) You say people have been promoted without having 7 losses. But you didn't specify what league you were talking about. I think the only time the 7 losses number is brought up is when people talk about being promoted to diamond. Have you seen people be promoted to diamond with less than 7 losses?
One more thing, nice info about the favored. I wondered how that worked, now it makes sense. And it's actually fairly logical. It's trying to force your point rating to follow your hidden rating.
I think we tracked all promotions, not just a particular league. The rules wouldn't be different for each league anyway, even for Diamond.
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Awesome triforce of threads you've made on the matchmaking system. Very much appreciated!
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Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: Because everyone has access to the same total amount of bonus pool, it's unlikely that it is included in any matchmaking calculations.
If it's not included in matchmaking calculations what is the point to it?
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I fought this guy the other day http://sc2ranks.com/us/510076/Mjs
he's at 1500+ in bronze league, I'm in low-mid diamond. He beat me handily, I'm wondering what causes him to still be in bronze after 100 games.
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On September 06 2010 22:34 ZapRoffo wrote:I fought this guy the other day http://sc2ranks.com/us/510076/Mjshe's at 1500+ in bronze league, I'm in low-mid diamond. He beat me handily, I'm wondering what causes him to still be in bronze after 100 games.
His gosu friend was teaching him SC2 lessons.
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Excellent thread, thank you for the information. I was confused because I disconnected 2 placements and got to 19-2 in Silver before I got promoted directly to Diamond. I was frustrated, and then I lol'd.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 06 2010 20:22 Eluadyl wrote:Show nested quote +Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: Because everyone has access to the same total amount of bonus pool, it's unlikely that it is included in any matchmaking calculations. If it's not included in matchmaking calculations what is the point to it?
A few reasons:
- Pushing inactive players further down the rankings - Psychologically it acts as an incentive to play (after all, they're free points that you just have to claim by winning) - Providing a sense of progression
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Q: Will the ladder be divided into seasons? A: Yes, eventually. The length of a season has not been announced by Blizzard, but all ratings are expected to be wiped at that time.
thank god
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United States12175 Posts
On September 06 2010 22:34 ZapRoffo wrote:I fought this guy the other day http://sc2ranks.com/us/510076/Mjshe's at 1500+ in bronze league, I'm in low-mid diamond. He beat me handily, I'm wondering what causes him to still be in bronze after 100 games.
The people he's facing now are either in diamond or they routinely play against people that are in diamond (meaning their MMR is equivalent).
I checked his match history. He went 5-0 in his placement matches, the last one being against a Gold player. He either was placed in Gold or Platinum. After that, he threw a ton of his games. 24 in a row to be precise. Then he won 12 in a row, then lost another. That was when he was probably put into Bronze. He then played 4 even matches against Bronze players, so the system thought he belonged in Bronze. He went on a 30 game win streak after that, playing even matches against Silver players, unfavored matches against Gold players, unfavored matches against Plat players, and now finally even/unfavored matches against Diamond players.
He hasn't been promoted to Diamond yet because he hasn't stabilized. He's still considered too volatile to promote, though he is close I would estimate.
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Has anyone seen inconsistencies between the "favored/slightly favored" status on the loading screen versus the status at the end of the game? There have been MANY times when the loading screen says the other team is slightly favored, but when my team ends up winning the game, we turn out to be the slightly favored team. Likewise, when the other team is favored and my team loses, we sometimes see we get docked major points for being the favored team.
Anyone else see this?
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United States12175 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:00 screaper wrote: Has anyone seen inconsistencies between the "favored/slightly favored" status on the loading screen versus the status at the end of the game? There have been MANY times when the loading screen says the other team is slightly favored, but when my team ends up winning the game, we turn out to be the slightly favored team. Likewise, when the other team is favored and my team loses, we sometimes see we get docked major points for being the favored team.
Anyone else see this?
I've seen people report that, but I haven't seen it for myself. From what people have said, the Score Screen is the accurate report and your points gained or lost is consistent with what is reported there. I played quite a few games over the weekend and never witnessed it, though. Were you playing RT?
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United States12175 Posts
Added this question after some interesting threads started appearing on the Bnet forums.
Q: I'm in Bronze with 0 rating and a poor win ratio. I'm only getting 2 or 4 or 6 points -- including bonus pool -- for a win, but losing 22 points for a loss! Why is this happening, and how will I possibly get above 0 rating as long as this is happening to me? A: This one was tough to figure out because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the surface. Point gains and losses that are that extreme can only mean that you're Favored in every single match, but how is that possible if you're already in Bronze with 0 rating? The answer is that your MMR can go below Bronze 0. Because your rating -- which is zero -- is higher than your MMR which is somewhere far below zero, you will constantly be Favored. Because of the way MMR gains work, however, as long as you maintain a positive win ratio, you will eventually find matches where you are Slightly Favored and ultimately Teams Even and beyond. At that point, you will start to gain more points than you lose. Speculation: This may be a remnant from Beta, either from when Copper league was removed or when players started at 0 rating when they used to start at 1000 rating. It could be that Bronze 0 is equal to Beta's 1000 rating (and therefore Bronze 0 = 1000 MMR).
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Hi !
What happened to the bonus pool ?!
For 2 days it hasn t worked ... a play and usual and get ... + 11 ; -5 ; -19 ; +14 - and the bonus pool accumulates ... it has 50 right now !
.... I m a diamond player ( > 1100) .. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/323212/1/Tom/
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United States12175 Posts
On September 17 2010 09:42 Tomtaietot wrote:Hi ! What happened to the bonus pool ?! For 2 days it hasn t worked ... a play and usual and get ... + 11 ; -5 ; -19 ; +14 - and the bonus pool accumulates ... it has 50 right now ! .... I m a diamond player ( > 1100) .. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/323212/1/Tom/
I've heard people say that there's a bug with the bonus pool for some players. Yesterday I played and my bonus pool was being consumed in 2v2 just fine. Today and the day before people were saying that it wasn't working. It's probably something they have to fix on the server end.
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Wow really nice, you're the man.
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All this information is really good but I recall hearing that when you got promoted (for example from plat to diamond) that you'd lose a certain amount of points.
Is this a fixed amount? A %? Trying to figure out if its better, bonus pool wise, to get placed in diamond ASAP or if it doesn't really matter because I'm at 24-5 now winning more than I lose against ~1300 rating players and the system still won't promote me
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8716 Posts
On September 17 2010 10:38 Excalibur_Z wrote:I've heard people say that there's a bug with the bonus pool for some players. Yesterday I played and my bonus pool was being consumed in 2v2 just fine. Today and the day before people were saying that it wasn't working. It's probably something they have to fix on the server end. Yeah this is happening to me on Europe. I have had 130+ bonus pool during my last 18 wins. I received bonus for only one of those wins :o!
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United States12175 Posts
On September 17 2010 10:51 Woah wrote:All this information is really good but I recall hearing that when you got promoted (for example from plat to diamond) that you'd lose a certain amount of points. Is this a fixed amount? A %? Trying to figure out if its better, bonus pool wise, to get placed in diamond ASAP or if it doesn't really matter because I'm at 24-5 now winning more than I lose against ~1300 rating players and the system still won't promote me
We don't know. I lost 63 points or 18.6%. When Vanick went from Bronze to Silver he lost 12 points or 7%. We just don't have enough information yet.
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Great job for putting all of your ladder analysis together in this thread, a lot of misconceptions going around.
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I think I've observed a counterexample to the formula for favored/unfavored. According to the FAQ, it compares each player's MMR to the opponent's displayed rating.
I am a 900 rated Gold player. I recently played an 850 rated Diamond player.
I won the game and received 30 points (15 unrested). He lost and gave up -10 points. I saw him as slightly favored and he saw me as slightly favored.
My opponent's MMR is quite a bit higher than my displayed rating. I'm only displayed as a 900 rated gold player, whereas he's an 850 diamond. I also checked to see approximately his MMR. His last 5 opponents were all >800 rated diamond players, so it wouldn't make sense if his MMR is around high gold. Also, he was on a winning streak.
If the formula is accurate, I should see him as even/favored (my MMR is around 850 diamond, based on my opponents) and he should see himself as the favorite against me (since my real rating is much lower).
Or am I missing something? Like how could my display rating (900 gold) be higher than his ~850 diamond MMR?
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Nice thread, although nothing is new for me. Most of this is just common sense if you just analyse the ladder.
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Just to let you know I still havent laddered been sitting at the bottom of my division (#100) for 11 days now and havent been demoted wonder how long I have to sit to test this effectively?
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On September 17 2010 11:04 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 10:51 Woah wrote:All this information is really good but I recall hearing that when you got promoted (for example from plat to diamond) that you'd lose a certain amount of points. Is this a fixed amount? A %? Trying to figure out if its better, bonus pool wise, to get placed in diamond ASAP or if it doesn't really matter because I'm at 24-5 now winning more than I lose against ~1300 rating players and the system still won't promote me We don't know. I lost 63 points or 18.6%. When Vanick went from Bronze to Silver he lost 12 points or 7%. We just don't have enough information yet. Alright thanks guess its a complicated, unknown formula as well o.o
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United States12175 Posts
On September 17 2010 18:14 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Just to let you know I still havent laddered been sitting at the bottom of my division (#100) for 11 days now and havent been demoted wonder how long I have to sit to test this effectively?
You're not going to get demoted due to inactivity because sigma only changes after a game has been played. It could increase after your first game played since coming back though, and maybe then you would be demoted. That's if inactivity affects uncertainty, of course (and it may not necessarily, it just does for TrueSkill).
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United States12175 Posts
On September 17 2010 17:23 Forbiddian wrote: I think I've observed a counterexample to the formula for favored/unfavored. According to the FAQ, it compares each player's MMR to the opponent's displayed rating.
I am a 900 rated Gold player. I recently played an 850 rated Diamond player.
I won the game and received 30 points (15 unrested). He lost and gave up -10 points. I saw him as slightly favored and he saw me as slightly favored.
My opponent's MMR is quite a bit higher than my displayed rating. I'm only displayed as a 900 rated gold player, whereas he's an 850 diamond. I also checked to see approximately his MMR. His last 5 opponents were all >800 rated diamond players, so it wouldn't make sense if his MMR is around high gold. Also, he was on a winning streak.
If the formula is accurate, I should see him as even/favored (my MMR is around 850 diamond, based on my opponents) and he should see himself as the favorite against me (since my real rating is much lower).
Or am I missing something? Like how could my display rating (900 gold) be higher than his ~850 diamond MMR?
It's the other way around. His MMR is compared to your displayed rating and vice versa. You're also reading the points wrong: you did see him as slightly favored, but he saw you as teams even (due to the 10 point loss, and teams even is 10-14). You must have pretty similar MMR, though slightly higher than his displayed rating (maybe 900 Diamond due to the 10 point loss and his recent winning streak). That 900 Diamond estimated MMR is higher than your 900 Gold, so he was seen as slightly favored to you, and your estimated 900 Diamond MMR is higher than his 850 displayed rating, so you were roughly even/borderline slightly favored to him.
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United States12175 Posts
Oh hey, neat. My ladder FAQ has been featured on the Battle.net blog: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/790916
I wonder if I can treat that as official endorsement of the theories presented there. That would be pretty dramatic, considering it contains conjecture that hasn't been approved or confirmed by Blizzard.
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Is there a chance for not leveling up if u play on weekeneds and sometimes will just play after 2 weeks ?
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United States12175 Posts
On September 21 2010 02:10 noD wrote: Is there a chance for not leveling up if u play on weekeneds and sometimes will just play after 2 weeks ?
No.
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Useful info, some of it was news to me.
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I have a question now that I have read through all of this.
Given: Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored? A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating.
Bonus pool affects displayed rating, so someone who has an unused bonus pool (a bunch of accumulated points) is less favored than the same person with the bonus pool used (as they are essentially free points).
Does this mean that with say, 150 points saved you are better off losing 10 then winning 10 than winning 10 then losing the same 10 (as the use of the bonus pool will make those losses much larger) ?
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Solid FAQ! this should be stickied in some form or another.
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This is a good guide, but where's: Q: I'm 700 points in Diamond; is my opinion on balance valid? A: Not remotely.
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On September 18 2010 00:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 18:14 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Just to let you know I still havent laddered been sitting at the bottom of my division (#100) for 11 days now and havent been demoted wonder how long I have to sit to test this effectively? You're not going to get demoted due to inactivity because sigma only changes after a game has been played. It could increase after your first game played since coming back though, and maybe then you would be demoted. That's if inactivity affects uncertainty, of course (and it may not necessarily, it just does for TrueSkill).
Yeah I dont ladder much and I figured I'd give you a little extra data going to just be inactive on the ladder for a little bit and I'll let you know what happens like if I win my first game and get demoted then yes inactivity is taken into account. Only way I can think to test it for sure.
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I might have this wrong but don't your points get reduced when you go up divisions? I was under the impression that your overall points where divided in half every time you go up a division. I had a friend that was in platinum with 1200 points and when I checked him a couple days later he was diamond with 700. It made me assume this though he could have just lost a huge number of games in a couple days
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can anyone explain to me the purpose of this bpnus pool? The way I see it, it only achieves that we will never reach an ELO cap. What's the point of a system that is supposed to give you an idea of your skill level, if it is highly inflationary?
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What an unbelievable post. Thank you so much for putting the time into writing these ladder posts. TruBluGosu.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:03 Sixes wrote: I have a question now that I have read through all of this.
Given: Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored? A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating.
Bonus pool affects displayed rating, so someone who has an unused bonus pool (a bunch of accumulated points) is less favored than the same person with the bonus pool used (as they are essentially free points).
Does this mean that with say, 150 points saved you are better off losing 10 then winning 10 than winning 10 then losing the same 10 (as the use of the bonus pool will make those losses much larger) ?
We also have this question that directly answers that:
Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: Because everyone has access to the same total amount of bonus pool, it's unlikely that it is included in any matchmaking calculations.
However, this can be interpreted in two ways. Either the max bonus pool is subtracted internally from everyone's rating (similar to global rating decay), or only the consumed bonus pool (the inflated portion of your rating) is subtracted.
Say you have two players in the same league whose MMRs/points have stabilized. Player A has 500 and Player B has 300. Player A has consumed 400 bonus pool and Player B has consumed 150 bonus pool.
If the max is subtracted from everyone, then A would be higher up because B's unspent points are working against him. If not, then that means that their "true ratings" are 100 for A and 150 for B, so even though A has a higher displayed rating, B would be higher up.
We don't know which is the case, but we could speculate that the "true rating" design would be more accurate because it's a fairer design.
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United States12175 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:32 SCdinner wrote:I might have this wrong but don't your points get reduced when you go up divisions? I was under the impression that your overall points where divided in half every time you go up a division. I had a friend that was in platinum with 1200 points and when I checked him a couple days later he was diamond with 700. It made me assume this though he could have just lost a huge number of games in a couple days
You do lose some points, but it varies per player and probably more specifically by games played. That is, when I got promoted to Diamond in 1v1 I lost 63 points and was 16-9. When Vanick got promoted from Bronze to Silver he lost 12 points and was 5-5. There's some formula at work, but it's not obvious what it is and certainly not as simple as "we just halve your current points".
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On September 21 2010 03:53 Excalibur_Z wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2010 03:03 Sixes wrote: I have a question now that I have read through all of this.
Given: Q: Is it possible for both players to see the other as Favored? A: Yes, because it compares the opponent's MMR to the player's displayed rating. This is common when both players haven't played many games, meaning their MMR is higher than their displayed rating.
Bonus pool affects displayed rating, so someone who has an unused bonus pool (a bunch of accumulated points) is less favored than the same person with the bonus pool used (as they are essentially free points).
Does this mean that with say, 150 points saved you are better off losing 10 then winning 10 than winning 10 then losing the same 10 (as the use of the bonus pool will make those losses much larger) ? We also have this question that directly answers that: Q: Is the bonus pool considered in any calculations? How can that be accurate if it constantly inflates ratings? A: Because everyone has access to the same total amount of bonus pool, it's unlikely that it is included in any matchmaking calculations. However, this can be interpreted in two ways. Either the max bonus pool is subtracted internally from everyone's rating (similar to global rating decay), or only the consumed bonus pool (the inflated portion of your rating) is subtracted. Say you have two players in the same league whose MMRs/points have stabilized. Player A has 500 and Player B has 300. Player A has consumed 400 bonus pool and Player B has consumed 150 bonus pool. If the max is subtracted from everyone, then A would be higher up because B's unspent points are working against him. If not, then that means that their "true ratings" are 100 for A and 150 for B, so even though A has a higher displayed rating, B would be higher up. We don't know which is the case, but we could speculate that the "true rating" design would be more accurate because it's a fairer design.
Thank you, I had not read that question that way ...
It makes sense that they would in fact subtract the bonus pool influence altogether for calculations.
As for the purpose of bonus pool it is just to make WoWbies (you know, blizzard's customer base :/) feel like they are improving rather than stagnating. This also means that there is no set "good" point count but only a relative one (what was 600 diamond is now 1000 diamond and will be 1500 diamond in a month most likely).
Logically the "real point-bonus pool" should remain somewhat static (and be a good indicator of improvement or not. In fact if someone were to start a new team or get their placement done, tell us the value of the bonus pool, we can divide by the time since release to get a decent approximation of the exact bonus pool input and from there determine the "real point - bonus pool" (where top pros are probably about 1200-1400 and I would be 500 rather than 1100).
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On September 21 2010 03:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 03:32 SCdinner wrote:I might have this wrong but don't your points get reduced when you go up divisions? I was under the impression that your overall points where divided in half every time you go up a division. I had a friend that was in platinum with 1200 points and when I checked him a couple days later he was diamond with 700. It made me assume this though he could have just lost a huge number of games in a couple days You do lose some points, but it varies per player and probably more specifically by games played. That is, when I got promoted to Diamond in 1v1 I lost 63 points and was 16-9. When Vanick got promoted from Bronze to Silver he lost 12 points and was 5-5. There's some formula at work, but it's not obvious what it is and certainly not as simple as "we just halve your current points".
Thank you very much for clairifying. I can't find any threads that talk about this subject but maybe I'm not using the right search terms. Does anyone know anything about this factor in advancing leauges or is the calculations too obscure to figure out?
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Hyrule18762 Posts
These are always good reads. I vote for sticky. If I'm not allowed to vote, I vote for voting so I can vote for sticky.
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I'm sure that another FAQ is "What is MMR?" :D
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United States12175 Posts
On September 21 2010 04:53 xtfftc wrote: I'm sure that another FAQ is "What is MMR?" :D
That's why the ladder analysis threads are linked :>
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I've definitely noticed that your "number" rating means nothing.
Blizz's secret ranking (MMR) is the only thing guiding the system.
Point in case, I'm a 1200 Diamond 2v2 player now playing the 1v1 ladder.
I was placed in Platinum but play almost exclusively Diamond 1v1s in the 1100 range (probably 15 of my 23 games have been this) all of whom are "favored".
When I win I get big number boosts to "fast track" me to that level where Blizz thinks I should be. I suppose, once the system gets more data, it will level me out and I'll start playing more "even" matches. It's a good system IMO.
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can anyone explain to me the purpose of this bpnus pool? The way I see it, it only achieves that we will never reach an ELO cap. What's the point of a system that is supposed to give you an idea of your skill level, if it is highly inflationary?
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United States12175 Posts
On September 21 2010 07:23 mathemagician1986 wrote: can anyone explain to me the purpose of this bpnus pool? The way I see it, it only achieves that we will never reach an ELO cap. What's the point of a system that is supposed to give you an idea of your skill level, if it is highly inflationary?
I don't think you're using Elo in the proper context here, which is why I dissuade anyone from using that word. There's displayed rating and there's MMR. If you mean that the displayed ratings will never cap out, then yeah, that's probably the intent. Keep playing to hold your position. Your relative position though won't change due to inactivity.
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Yeah Blizzard implemented a computer adaptive test, much like the GRE and GMAT tests.
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Thank you I like that most of the ladder info is here good to be able to show friends why their not getting promoted etc.
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Alright, so I'm trying to use this faq to determine the answer to this. I'm going to assume that the "Top 200" Blizzard posts is based on the hidden rating. I have a friend that hovers around 1500 points, playing completely actively, and yet still doesn't get into the top 200. (yes, he's diamond) Does this mean he's lost a lot of matches that bring his hidden mmr way down, but win ones that don't really bring it up?
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Interesting read, especially on bonus pool, what I'm wondering is what the max bonus pool will be...
I like my own sig/quote about placement matches
Anyways nice analysis and everything is a lot clearer now.
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I've read this a few times over the past couple of weeks including today, and right now I'm really confused as to my status in my 1v1 laddering.
I'm currently rank 1 in my Platinum division, and I've constantly been playing Diamond players that are around rank 40-20 (I haven't checked ELOs). My matches always say "even match" on the load screens. I've also been on a 9-win streak against these same kinds of players, going 15-3 for all of my games today, yet just like this last month I'm still stuck in the top of Platinum.
Will I ever be moved up? I keep playing Diamond players and have been since release, yet I've never been bumped from Platinum . I've never gone on a losing streak more than 4 losses in a row, although you say that that shouldn't matter.
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On September 23 2010 14:31 Hikko wrote:I've read this a few times over the past couple of weeks including today, and right now I'm really confused as to my status in my 1v1 laddering. I'm currently rank 1 in my Platinum division, and I've constantly been playing Diamond players that are around rank 40-20 (I haven't checked ELOs). My matches always say "even match" on the load screens. I've also been on a 9-win streak against these same kinds of players, going 15-3 for all of my games today, yet just like this last month I'm still stuck in the top of Platinum. Will I ever be moved up? I keep playing Diamond players and have been since release, yet I've never been bumped from Platinum . I've never gone on a losing streak more than 4 losses in a row, although you say that that shouldn't matter.
You are Hikko.324 currently a little over 1000pts in platinum correct? If that's you, I see you had a 9 game losing streak just six days ago, that must have caused your mmr to plummet. Today you had an 8 game winning streak but most of the games were against people around your skill level (11 points means practically even I believe) which means your mmr is still not high enough for diamond yet. Even the one game in that winning streak (3rd game in the series) that you got 14 points from, it was against a platinum 900.
I think you will know you're close to getting promoted when you start getting 13-15 points per win more often, as that would mean you're winning against people that the system thinks are better than you.
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On September 23 2010 13:30 forgotten0ne wrote: Alright, so I'm trying to use this faq to determine the answer to this. I'm going to assume that the "Top 200" Blizzard posts is based on the hidden rating. I have a friend that hovers around 1500 points, playing completely actively, and yet still doesn't get into the top 200. (yes, he's diamond) Does this mean he's lost a lot of matches that bring his hidden mmr way down, but win ones that don't really bring it up?
If you give us your friend's character name maybe we could help you.
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On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division? A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week.
This is wrong, I haven't played any 1v1 games for well over 2 weeks and mine still has a green arrow.
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Great FAQ but you might want to start with an explanation of what "MMR" and "sigma" means
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On September 23 2010 15:20 Creation85 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division? A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week. This is wrong, I haven't played any 1v1 games for well over 2 weeks and mine still has a green arrow.
If you mouse over it it will tell you how far it thinks you've climbed. Chances are some people above you just got promoted out of your division (or it's possible a few people above you played very badly and managed to lose points).
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excellent post, clears alot of things out about the ladder system
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On September 23 2010 15:12 Dionyseus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 14:31 Hikko wrote:I've read this a few times over the past couple of weeks including today, and right now I'm really confused as to my status in my 1v1 laddering. I'm currently rank 1 in my Platinum division, and I've constantly been playing Diamond players that are around rank 40-20 (I haven't checked ELOs). My matches always say "even match" on the load screens. I've also been on a 9-win streak against these same kinds of players, going 15-3 for all of my games today, yet just like this last month I'm still stuck in the top of Platinum. Will I ever be moved up? I keep playing Diamond players and have been since release, yet I've never been bumped from Platinum . I've never gone on a losing streak more than 4 losses in a row, although you say that that shouldn't matter. You are Hikko.324 currently a little over 1000pts in platinum correct? If that's you, I see you had a 9 game losing streak just six days ago, that must have caused your mmr to plummet. Today you had an 8 game winning streak but most of the games were against people around your skill level (11 points means practically even I believe) which means your mmr is still not high enough for diamond yet. Even the one game in that winning streak (3rd game in the series) that you got 14 points from, it was against a platinum 900. I think you will know you're close to getting promoted when you start getting 13-15 points per win more often, as that would mean you're winning against people that the system thinks are better than you.
Thank you so much I've tried to forget about that losing streak, it was a...stupidly stubborn move on my part. Woops!
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On September 23 2010 15:20 Creation85 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division? A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week. This is wrong, I haven't played any 1v1 games for well over 2 weeks and mine still has a green arrow.
You are creation.672 correct? If that's you, it is showing that you are ranked 59th, and last week you were ranked 60th, so that's why it has the green arrow. Perhaps the exclamation point only shows up when your rank is both lower and haven't played any games for the past week.
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On September 23 2010 21:19 Dionyseus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 15:20 Creation85 wrote:On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Q: What do the different symbols, like the exclamation point, red arrow, and green arrow mean when viewing a division? A: An exclamation point means that the player has been placed in that division but not played any games last week. This is wrong, I haven't played any 1v1 games for well over 2 weeks and mine still has a green arrow. You are creation.672 correct? If that's you, it is showing that you are ranked 59th, and last week you were ranked 60th, so that's why it has the green arrow. Perhaps the exclamation point only shows up when your rank is both lower and haven't played any games for the past week.
The exclamation point one is admittedly the one I'm least sure about. I thought at first that it just showed that you were new to the division, but many players had exclamation points in my division and others despite having more than 5 games played over a few weeks. Then I refined that by thinking that maybe it requires no games played the previous week. Now I'm not sure what it is, other than it could be a server bug?
The green arrow, red arrow, and dashes I'm more confident about, because hovering over them in-game will show your rank in the division last week, and that seems to be consistent.
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On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Since the release of SC2 I've noticed a lot of recurring -- in fact, frequently asked -- questions regarding the ladder system.
You will never stop the old wives' tales on how the ladder works. Dude thinks he notices he has to lose 4 times to get promoted. Dude tells his Buddy what he thinks he figured out and Buddy thinks, 'Oh yeah! Me too!' and then Dude and Buddy agree that's how it works. They proceed to tell Other People. Other People thinks it sounds complicated and intelligent and has magic numbers, so it must be right and correct.
No amount of threads explaining MMR, sigma, etc will convince these people, and most of them don't even read forums anyway.
Though, at least now when I hear the hare-brained theories I have an easy link to reply with along with my /facepalm.
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On September 24 2010 02:32 Bane1998 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Since the release of SC2 I've noticed a lot of recurring -- in fact, frequently asked -- questions regarding the ladder system. You will never stop the old wives' tales on how the ladder works. Dude thinks he notices he has to lose 4 times to get promoted. Dude tells his Buddy what he thinks he figured out and Buddy thinks, 'Oh yeah! Me too!' and then Dude and Buddy agree that's how it works. They proceed to tell Other People. Other People thinks it sounds complicated and intelligent and has magic numbers, so it must be right and correct. No amount of threads explaining MMR, sigma, etc will convince these people, and most of them don't even read forums anyway. Though, at least now when I hear the hare-brained theories I have an easy link to reply with along with my /facepalm.
That's the whole point of this thread and the linked threads. There's no way to force people to read TL or the Bnet forums, though Blizzard has kindly linked this FAQ on the official site from one of their blog entries. Eventually as more people read it, more people get it, and more people can enlighten their friends.
Part of the problem of the ladder system is that it requires a certain level of understanding and explanation. That directly conflicts with most people's nature of wanting to condense and simplify complicated concepts to a few words. It's much easier to hear and follow "you have to lose" than "your uncertainty factor has to drop and your invisible matchmaking rating has to rise beyond the required breakpoint". It may be the case that for a particular person, losing certain matches may stabilize that person faster, but that shouldn't be the hard and fast rule. Eventually threads and information like this one will spread enough that either everyone will get a decent understanding (or at least boil it down to something everyone can follow) or Blizzard will reveal the inner workings of the system (which everyone will read because hey blue posts).
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This is nice. Ty for posting this. Im sure everyone has these questions too =] again, thank you !
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Very awesome post, the matchmaking/promotion system seems very confusing just at face value. Thanks for clearing all of it up
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i got a question about stabilty.. So as you guys know Sea players have acess to north american server..As most people know the skill level of sea and North america is quite different. i Won my my first 5 placement and got into plat and from there on all my games my opponent was favored which was still ok as they were low diaomonds or mid around 1000< so i got promoted to diamond league with a record of like 20-10 which is pretty bad but heres the problem, once i got into the diamond league i have been facing diaomonds who are like 1300~1500 points(i cant see their MMR so i go by points) and it show that i am slighty favored which is wtf. well i am no where near that level. And its been happening for a while now although i still get some lucky wins. So does this Match making get more stable as we play more games which in the end i would defenfitly lose a lot more games. And when would i be able to face people who are around my level
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It's probably that the people you've been facing have either evened out or lost a few games, putting their MMR below their rating. Don't forget that the bonus pool is somewhere around 850 by now, so to get "true" rating you have to take into account that they're likely 850 points lower than listed.
That brings up a good point. All you SEA players who transferred to NA should track complete match histories with as much detail as possible on yourself and your opponent. We can do this because you guys have to start from scratch.
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Added more info to the below Bronze Zero MMR question, but apparently it's a bug that's slated to be fixed.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980513?page=2#29
...what you're experiencing is indeed a bug and we're in the process of developing a fix. We wanted to make sure that you and any other players experiencing this don't get discouraged. The fix will require you to keep playing once it's applied for it to resolve the cycle you're in, so we hope you'll continue doing just that.
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I have a question I'm wondering if someone can answer. I've read through these analyses (which are awesome btw) and I find one thing troubling. The system seems to want to show you that your opponent is favored until you play a lot of games at which time it evens out. Are we talking about the MMR or the actual text "you're favored" during matchmaking? If it's the actual text, and not MMR, I'm experiencing the exact opposite of this.
I haven't played a ton of games (less than 100) and ever since the beginning I've actually been favored in almost every game I've played. Maybe 1 in 10 I'm either even or my opponent is favored. I've gone approximately 40-8 in my last 48-50 matches and I haven't been promoted. I'm also not playing any good players. Even my losses were due to either cheese or a big mistake by me. I don't think I've ever played a good player.
In short: It appears that what is supposed to happen is that your opponent will be favored until you play a lot of games, at which time you will even out. Instead, I am almost always favored and very rarely even or unfavored.
Is there something in this analysis that can explain this?
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On September 30 2010 15:23 babolatt wrote: I have a question I'm wondering if someone can answer. I've read through these analyses (which are awesome btw) and I find one thing troubling. The system seems to want to show you that your opponent is favored until you play a lot of games at which time it evens out. Are we talking about the MMR or the actual text "you're favored" during matchmaking? If it's the actual text, and not MMR, I'm experiencing the exact opposite of this.
I haven't played a ton of games (less than 100) and ever since the beginning I've actually been favored in almost every game I've played. Maybe 1 in 10 I'm either even or my opponent is favored. I've gone approximately 40-8 in my last 48-50 matches and I haven't been promoted. I'm also not playing any good players. Even my losses were due to either cheese or a big mistake by me. I don't think I've ever played a good player.
In short: It appears that what is supposed to happen is that your opponent will be favored until you play a lot of games, at which time you will even out. Instead, I am almost always favored and very rarely even or unfavored.
Is there something in this analysis that can explain this?
Are you experiencing the Bronze Zero phenomenon? Can you link to your Bnet profile?
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I guess it's possible, I am in Bronze... Profile: + Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Re-reading the explanation, I'm not sure if that's the case here.
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On October 01 2010 00:35 babolatt wrote:I guess it's possible, I am in Bronze... Profile: + Show Spoiler +EDIT: Re-reading the explanation, I'm not sure if that's the case here.
Everything looks normal to me at a glance. You seem to be where the system thinks you should be for now. Extend your win streak more and you'll find yourself playing against tougher players.
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So I asked Bashiok what he meant by the sub-Bronze Zero MMR thing being a bug, because it seems to perform an essential function. This was his response:
So yeah, the fix that’s going in - essentially, upon detection of one of these specific-case players the system will move them to a different division. The intent is to ensure we can resolve these fringe cases, help make sure everyone at all skill levels is having a fun time, and also that the fix not affect the rest of the ladder system. This fix is intended to hit all those notes.
He didn't elaborate. Let the speculation begin!
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edited, found the answer.
i asked about whether you change in diamond divisions, and found the answer was no 2 months ago. if this has changed let me know, but otherwise i'll know people won't switch divisions
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On October 01 2010 07:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:So I asked Bashiok what he meant by the sub-Bronze Zero MMR thing being a bug, because it seems to perform an essential function. This was his response: Show nested quote +So yeah, the fix that’s going in - essentially, upon detection of one of these specific-case players the system will move them to a different division. The intent is to ensure we can resolve these fringe cases, help make sure everyone at all skill levels is having a fun time, and also that the fix not affect the rest of the ladder system. This fix is intended to hit all those notes. He didn't elaborate. Let the speculation begin!
Special case division, ugh.
ETA: I'll speculate that the sub-Bronze Zero MMR theory is right, and they are responding by calling it a bug, and fixing it by putting them into a special case division where the floor is anchored to an even lower MMR number.
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On October 02 2010 01:31 KillerDucky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:So I asked Bashiok what he meant by the sub-Bronze Zero MMR thing being a bug, because it seems to perform an essential function. This was his response: So yeah, the fix that’s going in - essentially, upon detection of one of these specific-case players the system will move them to a different division. The intent is to ensure we can resolve these fringe cases, help make sure everyone at all skill levels is having a fun time, and also that the fix not affect the rest of the ladder system. This fix is intended to hit all those notes. He didn't elaborate. Let the speculation begin! Special case division, ugh. ETA: I'll speculate that the sub-Bronze Zero MMR theory is right, and they are responding by calling it a bug, and fixing it by putting them into a special case division where the floor is anchored to an even lower MMR number.
I wonder if that also means divisions have some kind of predetermined average MMR associated with them. I'm not married to that theory, and I guess we'll see what happens in the future, but hopefully that's not the case.
As if that weren't enough, more wackiness!
Hey Phron. There is an issue causing this delay of a promotion for you which we're currently working to address. The best temporary resolution is to continue playing normally, as you will eventually be promoted based on your performance.
So they're not only changing the Bronze Zero thing but also loosening promotion criteria?? Who knows what else they'll include in this refinement pass?
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Are there any standards as far as how many points one starts with after being promoted to a new league? Generally, from what I've seen, it tends to be about 600 points. As I am #1 (1170 point) in platinum, I am facing a lot of 500-1000 point diamonds, so I would guess that one gets somewhere around that amount of points? If this is true it essentially means that anyone below 600 points in diamond generally should be of less skill than the top platinum players. I tend to more often loose against platinum players as far down as to 500 points, than I do against 600+ diamonds.
If meeting 600+ diamond players and winning vs. them is a good sign of promotion, then how does the system view at loosing against 500 point platinums? I guess this is where the "MMR" goes into play, but in my mind it's still kind of incomprensible.
The ladder system seems to be kind of imbalances in some ways. If it takes so long for the ladder to get to a state where it reflects the true skill of the players I don't really see the point of seasonly restarting the whole thing. It feels like the ladder system is just some kind of visual shell to make us feel all good about ourselves.
When I eventually get promoted, will I pretty much meet players of the same skill as I do now, or will I immediately start facing higher ranked diamond players?
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Great post, finally found the best answer to this system yet.
One thing: could you define what MMR and Sigma mean in the original post? Took me a long time to find out what they are, might save others the trouble.
Thanks
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On October 05 2010 06:50 kitling89 wrote: Great post, finally found the best answer to this system yet.
One thing: could you define what MMR and Sigma mean in the original post? Took me a long time to find out what they are, might save others the trouble.
Thanks
Okay, added to the first post.
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OMG why was i placed in gold league i bought the game yesterday, won 3/2 of my placement matches and boom im in gold.
what the hell man lol
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Great post! My understanding of the ladder system improved alot.
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fantastic post!
i think it's time to finally play my 1v1 placements. haha
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On October 14 2010 08:05 UnholyRai wrote: OMG why was i placed in gold league i bought the game yesterday, won 3/2 of my placement matches and boom im in gold.
what the hell man lol
I'm sure you'll do fine There are two leagues above gold and two below.
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On October 14 2010 08:53 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 08:05 UnholyRai wrote: OMG why was i placed in gold league i bought the game yesterday, won 3/2 of my placement matches and boom im in gold.
what the hell man lol I'm sure you'll do fine There are two leagues above gold and two below.
I tried gold and i got demolished 3 games in a row.
I was confident in the practice leagues (lol) then i somehow won 3/5 of my placements matches and got put in gold (i don't know how i won tbh, i think i somehow played really well).
but since getting demolished in gold i have lost all of my confidence and now i just try to cheese to win and it epic fails.
ahhh damn lolll. i actually want to be demoted until i learn the game...
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Okay I'm almost at the 45 day inactivity mark on ladder you think thats long enough to test if it raises your sigma? I want it to be something where if inactivity does increase your sigma I can win my first game back and still get demoted that sort of a thing.
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What exactly is the display rating if bonus pool is not factored in? Simply your points minus bonus points that you obtained from winning in ladder?
What then is the purpose of your points if it doesn't even serve any viable purpose? They should just not hide the MMR so people can actually be ranked without Blizzard having to release their top 200 every week or so ._.
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On October 31 2010 22:23 Proposal wrote: What exactly is the display rating if bonus pool is not factored in? Simply your points minus bonus points that you obtained from winning in ladder?
What then is the purpose of your points if it doesn't even serve any viable purpose? They should just not hide the MMR so people can actually be ranked without Blizzard having to release their top 200 every week or so ._.
What do you mean the bonus pool is not factored into your display rating? Of course it is. If you're at 1500 and you win a game earning 20 points (10 from bonus) your new display rating would be 1520.
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does this guy even know what sigma is?
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On February 18 2011 04:03 jstocky14 wrote: does this guy even know what sigma is? did you read his previous posts?
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Hope it's alright to squeeze in a short queery I've been having about the ladder. Sorry in advance for possible lack of basic knowledge, I just got the game a few weeks ago. However, I have been playing quite a bit, but even though I have had som decent win-streaks I ALWAYS lose all, or very close to all, my points when I finally lose. Thus back to square one point wise. The thing is though that in some of the more recent matches I've played my opponent were either equally good or better, according to the statements before the game. After said games though, most of which I won, it says "You were favoured" and I am only rewarded 4-6 point, including bonus.
Am I missing something, or do I just lose the wrong games? My buddy who bought it at the same time as me started getting 20+ from his first game, and is now at around 1000p. Can anyone aid me in my frustration?
#EDIT I saw now that most of my problem was described in the first post, but I still wonder why I do not get any extra points when teams are even or even at my disadvantage (as I said, the system just changes its mind, and states that I in fact was favoured before the game, when the score screen comes up).
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It will be fixed on next patch (1.3) (at least that's what the patch notes says!).
You can eventually fix it if you win enough games, but if you are a newbie in this game it can be just impossible.
If I were you I would just play and don't care about my points till the new patch comes and see what happens.
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Thanks so much for a quick response! Really looking forward to the patch now! Any idea if my hidden rating keeps spiraling downwards, or if that will keep up with my wins?
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On March 15 2011 05:08 Molestaire wrote: Thanks so much for a quick response! Really looking forward to the patch now! Any idea if my hidden rating keeps spiraling downwards, or if that will keep up with my wins?
Generally speaking, your hidden rating will improve as long as you're winning more than you're losing, but it's highly dependent on who you get matched up against (beating a lower-level player will increase your hidden rating less than beating a higher-level player).
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On March 15 2011 06:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 05:08 Molestaire wrote: Thanks so much for a quick response! Really looking forward to the patch now! Any idea if my hidden rating keeps spiraling downwards, or if that will keep up with my wins? Generally speaking, your hidden rating will improve as long as you're winning more than you're losing, but it's highly dependent on who you get matched up against (beating a lower-level player will increase your hidden rating less than beating a higher-level player).
Ok, but in the loading screen in often says "slightly favoured" in the opponents favour or teams even. As I said though, after the game it always says "You were favoured". Which one of them is wrong?
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On March 17 2011 06:55 Molestaire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 06:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:On March 15 2011 05:08 Molestaire wrote: Thanks so much for a quick response! Really looking forward to the patch now! Any idea if my hidden rating keeps spiraling downwards, or if that will keep up with my wins? Generally speaking, your hidden rating will improve as long as you're winning more than you're losing, but it's highly dependent on who you get matched up against (beating a lower-level player will increase your hidden rating less than beating a higher-level player). Ok, but in the loading screen in often says "slightly favoured" in the opponents favour or teams even. As I said though, after the game it always says "You were favoured". Which one of them is wrong?
The score screen always has the correct information.
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Now that the ladder has been reset, how's this gonna work? Everybody getting their opponents to be favoured every match until ratings get close to the MMR?
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On February 18 2011 04:03 jstocky14 wrote: does this guy even know what sigma is? Did this guy really bump an old post to criticize a mod?
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On March 30 2011 03:43 Old.Snake wrote: Now that the ladder has been reset, how's this gonna work? Everybody getting their opponents to be favoured every match until ratings get close to the MMR?
Yes.
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This is actually interesting information to know, thanks :D.
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On March 30 2011 04:05 Kyamo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 03:43 Old.Snake wrote: Now that the ladder has been reset, how's this gonna work? Everybody getting their opponents to be favoured every match until ratings get close to the MMR? Yes.
I suspect that division modifiers will end up compensating for much of this. A point value of 0 on the ladder listing doesn't necessarily equate to the division-adjusted point value that's compared to your opponent's MMR for purposes of how many points are awarded.
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Hi chaps, perhaps you can help me with something. I always get the feeling that my opponent is favoured more often than I am favoured. I decided to record my matches and get the statistics to see if this is the case or not. The stats show that my opponents are indeed favoured significantly more often than I am favoured (see data below). Btw, these results are from Plat/Dia/Master leagues... it is not some odd bronze bug.
Q: Shouldn't it be expected that you are favoured as often as your opponent is favoured. Such that the ratio between being favoured and against favoured is approximately 50:50. Also wouldn't you expect that most games are even... perhaps something along the lines of 80% even, 10% favoured, 10% opponent favoured?
Now the stats... - Taken from more than 300 games... - Favoured status determined from points assigned ignoring bonus
Of all my games: I am favoured in 9.2% of games. My opponent is favoured in 24.1% of games.
So I have to play a favoured opponent almost 1/4 of the time!
How important is being favoured? Look at match results: When I am favoured my win/loss is 55.5% When my opponent is favoured my win/loss is 37.5% When the match is even my win/loss is 54.5%
So my being favoured is basically no help at all. If I play 100 games as the favoured player I would only win 1 game more than if I played 100 games as team even. That is not an advantage.
But for my opponent being favoured is a massive disadvantage, I only win about 1 in 3 in this case!
Conclusions: It would seem that: - When I am favoured I get no real advantage, and the points won/lost for this mean this is really a big disadvantage! - My opponent is favoured a disproportionate amount of the time and this means I lose a lot of games. - If you look only at even matched games my win/loss is about 55%, but looking at all games it is around 45%... favoured games are penalising me...
Am I missing something here? I really haven't enjoyed playing recently because it has felt like the game is making it unfairly hard for me to win, I think the data I collected supports this. I'm not trying to moan about this, I love SC2. I just don't understand what is going on and I'd like to know if other people find this or if I've made a mistake in my analysis. Sure would feel better if the match making worked as advertised and I actually did win/lose 50% of the time.
Thanks guys!
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Excaibur, you still amaze me. Your league threads always have great information. I never know you the favored system worked with MMR/displayed rating. Thanks!
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On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Q: I'm in Bronze. Is it possible to get promoted directly to Gold? A: Yes. It's possible to go from any league to any other league, wherever your MMR and sigma stabilize. Viewing your match history and the profiles of your opponents should clue you in to where you're likely to be promoted next.
EDIT 3/14: Internal changes to the ladder system appear to have prevented "league skipping". The system is a little more aggressive about promoting players into new leagues, now. Apparently leaque skipping is possible, according to Zhydaris on the EU forums. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2418222057?page=1#15 From where did you get your information that this was changed?
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On May 31 2011 04:50 Spirit09 wrote: - If you look only at even matched games my win/loss is about 55%, but looking at all games it is around 45%... favoured games are penalising me...
Am I missing something here? I really haven't enjoyed playing recently because it has felt like the game is making it unfairly hard for me to win, I think the data I collected supports this. I'm not trying to moan about this, I love SC2. I just don't understand what is going on and I'd like to know if other people find this or if I've made a mistake in my analysis. Sure would feel better if the match making worked as advertised and I actually did win/lose 50% of the time.
Thanks guys!
Um, the matchmaking system is designed to try and make you climb the ladder...so being matched against people that are slightly better than you makes a lot of sense. This way, as you naturally get better, you will start facing better and better people.
If the system just pinned you against people with the same MMR and your ratio remains at 50%...then this suggests that you aren't improving. You need to start winning against those that have slightly higher MMR.
At any rate, a 45% win rate isn't horrible for someone that isn't at the top of the ladder. It just means that you have a little learning to do. (And the smallest tweak in your play may improve that win rate dramatically, like removing a recurring supply block, or learning how to force an opponent away from a strategy you are weak against.)
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I've got a question that is driving me crazy. Me and my friend have just started laddering in 2v2 and sometimes it happens that the game speed isn't in fastest and how the f is that possible and that bothers me a lot the game being in normal is way to slow and boring for me to enjoy it so yesterday I tried to change the settings inbetween games and it was locked. My question is, is this simply a bug or is it something else and if so what is it?
Note: I never have similar problems when I ladder in 1v1
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United States12175 Posts
On July 20 2011 21:29 Mendelfist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 14:43 Excalibur_Z wrote: Q: I'm in Bronze. Is it possible to get promoted directly to Gold? A: Yes. It's possible to go from any league to any other league, wherever your MMR and sigma stabilize. Viewing your match history and the profiles of your opponents should clue you in to where you're likely to be promoted next.
EDIT 3/14: Internal changes to the ladder system appear to have prevented "league skipping". The system is a little more aggressive about promoting players into new leagues, now. Apparently leaque skipping is possible, according to Zhydaris on the EU forums. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2418222057?page=1#15From where did you get your information that this was changed?
Around January or so of 2011 Blizzard was looking to promote players more aggressively to cut down on the "I'm Bronze fighting DIAMONDS WTF BLIZZ" reports because they agreed that didn't make a lot of sense and could be discouraging to players. Additionally, promotions during win streaks were too few and far between which was also discouraging, and the concept of intentionally losing some games in order to get promoted was counter-intuitive. There has been no official announcement or acknowledgment that the system changed in any way, but we can see from empirical findings that promotions weren't as rare as they used to be.
If Zhydaris says it's still possible to skip leagues then I'd be interested to discuss with him further, either he's got outdated information (which sometimes happens) or it is indeed still possible but not as common as it used to be. Of course it's still possible during league lock periods to skip leagues at the start of the following season.
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