oGsMC's PvT [GSL spoiler inside] - Page 3
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envect
Andorra21 Posts
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Krychek
United States172 Posts
On December 20 2010 07:02 envect wrote: If the ghost wasn't so expensive MC probably would not have won this GSL, and his PvP and PvZ are not anything special. Btw in this 1.2 state of the game he deserved to win and showed us a lot of entertainment matches So expensive? I gaves T a storm-class spell for about half the cost of investment of templar tech. That's enough. | ||
Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On December 20 2010 07:02 envect wrote: If the ghost wasn't so expensive MC probably would not have won this GSL, and his PvP and PvZ are not anything special. Btw in this 1.2 state of the game he deserved to win and showed us a lot of entertainment matches And so it begins (derailing the topic and theorycrafting) then making it seem ok by adding in the compliment. We are just talking about his style of PvT not ghosts balance or theorycrafting changes blizz should make. Stay on topic please I beg of you. and | ||
Krigwin
1130 Posts
His builds all focus on a lot of early-game aggression, but if you notice none of them are all-ins and all just serve as lead-offs to further lategame macro play. He's just an aggressive player, is all, not a specifically early-game player. He doesn't favor any particular unit or style like Foxer or someone, he uses everything available to the Protoss race and whatever is necessary to counter what his opponent's doing. I'm really looking forward to MC's performance in GSL 2011. | ||
GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
MC's take on PvT is extremely interesting considering all protosses seemed agreed that colossus absolutely asap was the way to go | ||
zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
good job with translating though, just make sure you include the link to the original article next time and credit the appropriate author. | ||
Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 20 2010 05:20 Krychek wrote: One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style. MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients. Not only that but he got the warp prism upgrades. Actually I think he got the obs upgrade as well! On December 20 2010 09:06 GoldenH wrote: I wasn't at all impressed with any of oGsMC's strategies. He had decent micro but nothing special. What I was impressed by his really good sense of what his army could beat and what he had to run away from. This is a really hard skill to master and I think even most pros haven't managed it yet. This is a good point (though I was impressed by his play overall). MC seems to have some of the best army evaluation out of any Protoss player I've seen PvT. Especially when it comes to bunkers, his confidence in breaking bunkers with FF to make his push work is pretty remarkable. | ||
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often. T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks. I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers) Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO. | ||
lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
On December 20 2010 09:06 GoldenH wrote: I wasn't at all impressed with any of oGsMC's strategies. He had decent micro but nothing special. What I was impressed by his really good sense of what his army could beat and what he had to run away from. This is a really hard skill to master and I think even most pros haven't managed it yet. If you mean to say his "gamesense" is unmatched, then yes, you're very right. He knows exactly when to strike and where, and he knows when to pull back and when to push harder. Incredible. Also, he must be hacking or something, because I don't know where he gets all that gas! | ||
oZii
United States1198 Posts
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid. Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often. T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks. I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers) Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO. Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul so I don't think inexperience is a good arguement. I think its just that a few Toss players have just learned to play. MC was 1 and done in GSL 1 losing to Polt Prime. His vT just became strong between GSL 1 and GSL 3. Which really highlights his dedication to getting better. 2010 TG Sambo-Intel Global StarCraft 2 League Open Season 1 PvT: 17-34 (33.3%) 2010 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Open Season 2 PvT: 18-26 (40.9%) 2010 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Open Season 3 PvT: 30-18 (62.5%) Rainbow TvP + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win Total 9-2 NexGenius who you mention PvT + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss Total 6-7 | ||
GoldenH
1115 Posts
On December 20 2010 09:54 lowercase wrote: If you mean to say his "gamesense" is unmatched, then yes, you're very right. He knows exactly when to strike and where, and he knows when to pull back and when to push harder. Incredible. Also, he must be hacking or something, because I don't know where he gets all that gas! Nah, I don't think his game sense was good at all, he was fooled on several occasions by his poor scouting, if he had better game sense he would have been ready for the consequences of what he didn't see. The previous poster had the right word, army evaluation. | ||
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 20 2010 10:24 oZii wrote: Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul. Into the Rainbow TvP Total 9-2 Next Genius who you mention Total 6-7 ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT. Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well. Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds. It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better. I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players. | ||
oZii
United States1198 Posts
On December 20 2010 10:47 wherebugsgo wrote: ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT. Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well. Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds. It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better. I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players. Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking? So that we don't lose site of this arguement here. You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament? Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore? On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously. That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise. Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well. HERE Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again? | ||
jacksonlee
175 Posts
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid. Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often. T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks. I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers) Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO. This is a bunch of theorycrafting. It sounds like - in theory - you should be in GSL yourself instead of TSLRain. You're basically saying that the Terrans could have won if they played flawlessly. orly? It's just silly that you say that there is absolutely no Terran player in the entire GSL who can play TvP properly. | ||
lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
I still think so, aside from his builds he's still in absolutely top form. | ||
Krigwin
1130 Posts
On December 20 2010 11:41 lowercase wrote: Actually, it makes you wonder: would oGsMC have still won if it had been a PvZ or a PvP final? I still think so, aside from his builds he's still in absolutely top form. He beat JulyZerg and was planning on facing NesTea. I'm sure he would have been totally prepared for a PvZ finals. As for PvP, there's no other Toss remotely on his level so I'm pretty sure he would not have many problems with that either. | ||
whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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Moja
United States313 Posts
YOU DON'T HAVE TO OPEN ROBO... And in fact, robo openers are almost always inferior... Scout mass rax play? 3 gate sentry expand. Scout wallin with tech? X gate Voidray pressure. The only weakness I can see for MC is: 1) he gets tricked (fake 2 rax into cloaked banshees; unscouted thor rush), 2) bratok ghost marine timing push should beat the sentry expand easily. | ||
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