I think the key here is how much MC puts into avoiding the colossus. Remember the Day9 daily where he's all about delaying the colossus and focusing on other stuff? (#219 btw) It's very reminiscent of what MC has been doing all season long.
I've been watching Huk's stream a lot and the ease at which Terran usually stomps all over his colossus army with basic m&m&m is pretty ridiculous. (sorry Huk) I think the over-reliance by protoss on robo units, the colossus in particular is what has been holding them back. In game 1 vs. Rain, MC gets a robo and produces lots and lots of immortals, but never even throws up the support bay, and annihilates Rain's army which had quite a few marines (usually seen as strong against the immortal).
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
I felt like the reason MC skips the robo even though most 'toss think it's required is that he doesn't need the observer. I was noticing that any time he was even remotely uncertain of what the terran was doing, he would just attack with what he had and then make strategic decisions based on how the terran responded.
On December 20 2010 08:11 Krigwin wrote: I don't think MC has a style. He plays like a real progamer should - strong in all areas of the game, uses units to counter what his enemy is doing, focuses on controlling the game and dominating his opponent through aggression right from the start.
His builds all focus on a lot of early-game aggression, but if you notice none of them are all-ins and all just serve as lead-offs to further lategame macro play. He's just an aggressive player, is all, not a specifically early-game player. He doesn't favor any particular unit or style like Foxer or someone, he uses everything available to the Protoss race and whatever is necessary to counter what his opponent's doing.
I'm really looking forward to MC's performance in GSL 2011.
Man, he is constantly growing and when he is bound by a set of pattern of ideas or way of doing things, that's when he stops growing. - Bruce Lee
On December 20 2010 12:47 TheGiftedApe wrote: if you havent watched the finals and are on tl.net reading ogsmc thread you are a full on retard...and deserve to be spoiled.
Thumbs up!
I didnt watch the finals live, thats why i didnt visit tl.net till i saw the finals.
You must be a retard if you go onto a Starcraft site with the presumption, that you wont see any results of the games.
On December 20 2010 12:51 MoNoNauT wrote: I felt like the reason MC skips the robo even though most 'toss think it's required is that he doesn't need the observer. I was noticing that any time he was even remotely uncertain of what the terran was doing, he would just attack with what he had and then make strategic decisions based on how the terran responded.
Yeah, it's a risky tactic but it worked for him.
Personally I think MC would get colossus, he just never was in a position where he should sit back and mass them.
On December 20 2010 05:28 Shlowpoke wrote: I'd love to go through the matches and see if MC goes for a Void Ray push every time the Terran walls in. Does anyone know?
Yes, this is especially notable if you look at his strategies on the same map. In this case we can look at Steppes of War.
Against Hyperdub, he scouts the wall, spends his chrono on probes and then gets a Stargate and moves out with a handful of gateway units with his voidray. As he can't see what his opponent is doing he gets a robo after only building one Void Ray.
Against Jinro on Steppes of War he scouts that there is no wall and puts his chrono on Zealots while Core is building. As core finishes he switches to Stalkers. During this time he keeps building probes and expands. Around now MC is in Jinros base microing against SCVs and the gg comes when additional stalker has crossed the map.
I think alot of people are thinking MC "just" went one-base three tech paths on Lost Temple but what happened was evolutionary decision-making.
On the LT game, again he goes for a single Void Ray when he sees the wall-in. During his poke in the front he sees 1) he can't break it and 2) Rain is building a CC. So he has two options, expand and be behind or put pressure and expand. He decides to harass/put pressure with DTs, a decision very much based on their close air position.
Great, great player. Reactive time-attacking requires exceptional understanding.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
for those unaware of the pure awesomeness it was before the nerfs.
omg look at those nice animations. :D
thank god the Collossus doesnt shoot at a single marine at a time anymore. ^^ But i did like the animation of the Stalker shooting and of course the mothership skills.
On December 20 2010 13:09 synapse wrote: Cmon' guys, less rationalization and more blind fanboyism!
This just baffles me.
Ever since the days leading up to the semi-finals, I've seen so many people act unimpressed with oGsMC's strategic play. It really makes no sense to me. Everything he does is absolutely inspiring and displays an immensely deep understanding of the game. I don't understand what more can be expected from a player. He is playing much closer to "perfect" than any other protoss.
I challenge anyone to give me one good reason to doubt that MC far and away the best protoss player in the world right now, if not simply the best player. If for no other reason, MC should be appreciated for being one of the only protoss players to consider the colossus for what it is - a late game unit.
Great analysis. I think next season the Terrans will figure something out though, they are just so used to being safe that MC's pressure really got to them.
In the finals, the fourth and fifth games especially, it was clear that Rain's crisis management was subpar. I'm assuming it's because Terrans are not used to defending against Protoss early.
I mean, MC will probably still be awesome, but I think a Terran out there (Jinro? Nada?) will find a way. Then MC will come back and bust that strat... that's what makes this game so interesting!
On December 20 2010 14:40 toadstool wrote: He's revolutionary. No other Protoss has does what he done. If you watch Genius's play in the Blizzard invitational, it was all Collossi vs mmm.
Watch MC's games vs rain, and he's got a stargate, a robo AND 4-warpgates in the game on Lost Temple. What does a Terran do against that?
While I agree MC's play is different. Genius did go with Void Ray play in the Invitational. He went void ray expand also. People kinda gave him shit about it saying it was cheesy risky or noobie because he lost when he tried it. Genius didn't execute it as well as MC but he wasn't only colossus tech against MMM. He would try for colossus and then would fail but his opening mostly was a 1 gate fe style.
On December 20 2010 13:09 synapse wrote: Cmon' guys, less rationalization and more blind fanboyism!
This just baffles me.
Ever since the days leading up to the semi-finals, I've seen so many people act unimpressed with oGsMC's strategic play. It really makes no sense to me. Everything he does is absolutely inspiring and displays an immensely deep understanding of the game. I don't understand what more can be expected from a player. He is playing much closer to "perfect" than any other protoss.
I challenge anyone to give me one good reason to doubt that MC far and away the best protoss player in the world right now, if not simply the best player. If for no other reason, MC should be appreciated for being one of the only protoss players to consider the colossus for what it is - a late game unit.
Because he's winning with crappy builds that should have been easily beaten by the Terran.
Watching his games was like "Hey, do you know how to deal with Proxy gate? Nope? Oh I win. How about DTs? Okay, guess not. Do you scout for hidden expansions? Really? Not that either?"
MC does everything right, but the stuff he's doing, a terran has no excuse for not knowing how to counter, it's like, "You can't get past the top 50,000 on the ladder without knowing how to beat that, how is this guy in the GSL?"
oGsMC's interview says he has better builds for next year. So I'll hope to see better play soon. But will those builds he uses be 3+ months old by the time he uses? That's what will define how good a player he is.
I'll happily give MC the "best protoss in the world" title, because if he is as solid with better strategies as he is with the ones he used in the GSL, then hell yeah that's a toss.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.