I really feel disgusted by those who claim MC win due to the lack of noteworthy opponents. Some even criticise his macro. Did any of you here has the replay of the match? Did you see him miss a probe or get pylon block? did you see his minerals and gas went over a 1000? If none of you have seen it, then u cannot criticise blindly.
MC did not win with crappy builds. he executed his builds well. Yes u need scan to beat a dark templar, but how many of you can actually spot the dark templar even in the middle of the battle. All the progamers know what units is best to counter the opponent, it is their inability to execute it due to many in game reasons none of us know. is easy to criticise, but how many of you actually know what is happening in the game.
On December 20 2010 13:09 synapse wrote: Cmon' guys, less rationalization and more blind fanboyism!
This just baffles me.
Ever since the days leading up to the semi-finals, I've seen so many people act unimpressed with oGsMC's strategic play. It really makes no sense to me. Everything he does is absolutely inspiring and displays an immensely deep understanding of the game. I don't understand what more can be expected from a player. He is playing much closer to "perfect" than any other protoss.
I challenge anyone to give me one good reason to doubt that MC far and away the best protoss player in the world right now, if not simply the best player. If for no other reason, MC should be appreciated for being one of the only protoss players to consider the colossus for what it is - a late game unit.
Because he's winning with crappy builds that should have been easily beaten by the Terran.
Watching his games was like "Hey, do you know how to deal with Proxy gate? Nope? Oh I win. How about DTs? Okay, guess not. Do you scout for hidden expansions? Really? Not that either?"
MC does everything right, but the stuff he's doing, a terran has no excuse for not knowing how to counter, it's like, "You can't get past the top 50,000 on the ladder without knowing how to beat that, how is this guy in the GSL?"
oGsMC's interview says he has better builds for next year. So I'll hope to see better play soon. But will those builds he uses be 3+ months old by the time he uses? That's what will define how good a player he is.
I'll happily give MC the "best protoss in the world" title, because if he is as solid with better strategies as he is with the ones he used in the GSL, then hell yeah that's a toss.
I am pretty sure u lost to cheesy all in before EVEN after you scouted it. Is about how you or ur opponent execute the rush rather then knowing what to do. dont talk like mc builds are crappy, you are the one who dont understand the reason behind what he do
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
Didn't he win a macro game against Rain on Lost Temple? I recall it went on for more than half and hour and he was on 3+ bases as was Rain. So I don't think we can say he won't win a game that goes into a macro style.
This uninformed. Everyone that watch the finals should remember that Lost temple game he built every tech structure on 1 base in the beginning. If that is not significant enough to remember I don't know what is. Then the game went into the long macro game.
So youre saying you agree that he won a macro game...? Elaborate please
Did you not watch that game? Was a long 40 minute game on LT. If thats not a macro game then I don't know what is.
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
Game 2 vs marine king. MC dominated proxy rax conc marauder. This guy is so solid I can't believe people would doubt him... -_-
I am pretty sure u lost to cheesy all in before EVEN after you scouted it. Is about how you or ur opponent execute the rush rather then knowing what to do. dont talk like mc builds are crappy, you are the one who dont understand the reason behind what he do
Try more like I've done those exact builds hundreds of times in the top 1000 players on the NA ladder and know their strengths/weaknesses, it's too bad, that his opponent doesn't. I don't perfectly execute them every time but at least I know what to do... better builds from MC are coming next year, we will see if MC is an innovator or not.
But even if he is not an innovator that is not necessary to be the best protoss.
Sure I lose to cheese that I see coming sometimes, even often. But it is because I am not a solid player and I because I experiment.
On December 20 2010 05:20 Krychek wrote: One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style.
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients.
HE GOT WARP PRISM SPEED UPGRADE. Like holy shit, he got that speed upgrade and used it in a hurricane of drop/warpin harass all over that game. Never seen play like that in SC2 yet.
On December 20 2010 05:20 Krychek wrote: One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style.
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients.
he mentioned that in his interview. he saw a tank heavy army and it can't just keep up with the mobility of warp prism. it's pretty similar to how protoss slows down terran in BW by using reaver or dt drop.
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
Game 2 vs marine king. MC dominated proxy rax conc marauder. This guy is so solid I can't believe people would doubt him... -_-
There was even an interview question asking how he dealt with marauders so effectively. His mix of zealots and stalkers dealt with the proxy techlab rax in a way I've never seen before, against marineking's impressive and scary rax unit micro.
On December 20 2010 05:02 Tha_Docta wrote: Spoiler pls?
As a terran, watching MC play really scares the hell out of me, not gonna lie. His play just seems so impossible to stop, he makes it look so easy.
Why spoiler ? I'm pretty sure everyone knows the results already. If you don't want to know how games went you can leave right after reading first lines.
I'm rather surprises how many people want those spoilers tag ......
totally agree about the spoiler thing! was screaming inside my head after every post that said it, not even willing to discuss the true purpose of this article.
anyways great read! i honestly love using colossus in pvt, and have been somewhat conflicted in why day9 dislikes early colossus, but seeing the timings and multiple examples its great to think about. i will definitely be re-examining my pvt in the near future =]
Well there's no reason to stop using Collosi, but there's more weapons to the arsenal ^^ And as soon as more Protosses diverge from just going Collosi they will actually become more powerfull again, as the opponent won't always be preparing for them.
I think what most defines MC is his willingness to be aggressive in the early and mid-game without relying on cheese or all-ins. Most Toss don't do this in PvT--they either try to hold off pushes while macroing up and teching to T3, or they do some sort of all-in. Early and mid game aggression that is not only effective at doing damage in the short term but that also fits into a flexible vision for long term play...that's not usually a PvT strong suit.
Blizzard themselves said that T is strong early games and P strong late game in PvT/TvP, they even prepare patch 1.2 to balance this
so like Fruitdealer, MC show that the common perception is not always 100% true and for this he deserved to be called the best protoss
as for the LT match, shame that tartosis cant keep up with all the action. When MC break Rain's contain, you can clearly hear DT's killing Rain's scv in his main and half of his marines are on it ways there, leaving only half of his army in front of MC's base. Thats why he can break out with ease
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
As many many people have stated in this thread the norm for toss is Robo play many protoss will agree and many non-protoss players have said the same thing. That is what makes his style different yes he goes stargate but thats not instant win. Other Toss players went stargate also and it wasn't instant win its not like people just discovered stargates and voidrays.
Now you are moving into total theorycrafting territory. Your last paragragh is filled with many what-ifs and what nots. Which can go on forever and ever. If Terran does this MC does that. Nope sorry not gonna get me to join that one. I am stating that ITR uses alot of drop play that is fact as evidence of his TvP and TvZ. So who knows how MC will react (you certainly do not and neither do I) no one tried it against MC heavily outside of rain on the LT map.
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
The bold parts don't make sense to me they contradict.
Its safer to go banshee against MC than drops( because banshee's take longer and cost more?)
Terrans don't have to wall withstandard 3 rax into Medivac bio ball.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf0yy8_poltprime-vs-jangminchul-round-of-6_videogames There you go 1340 is about where it starts you may remember this game. Polt is basically playing the way many terrans use to play with drop play and stim abuse of MMM. Now you will probably counter with BUT MC didnt go stargate tech. Again that discussion will go on forever. Or you will say this is season 1 well no one did this to Mangchul in Season 3 so we don't know what would have happened.
This is standard TvP and Polt played it the way standard TvP is suppose to play and it can go either way. 50/50.
Another thing to consider is how many protoss didn't make it this time and there were a ton of mirrors. Again like I said before sample size is to small and to many factors to just say OMG no one can play TvP. It is such a general statement.
You also say if you look up stats for those that went Stargate first its skewed in the Toss Favor but that does still not equal=OMG they can't play TvP. That means they don't know how to handle TvP if the protoss goes Stargate. See using your same logic there. So by saying that if toss goes stargate you can't say that Terrans don't know how to TvP. Just like you say because Terrans can play against Robo doesnt mean they can.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
As many many people have stated in this thread the norm for toss is Robo play many protoss will agree and many non-protoss players have said the same thing. That is what makes his style different yes he goes stargate but thats not instant win. Other Toss players went stargate also and it wasn't instant win its not like people just discovered stargates and voidrays.
Now you are moving into total theorycrafting territory. Your last paragragh is filled with many what-ifs and what nots. Which can go on forever and ever. If Terran does this MC does that. Nope sorry not gonna get me to join that one. I am stating that ITR uses alot of drop play that is fact as evidence of his TvP and TvZ. So who knows how MC will react (you certainly do not and neither do I) no one tried it against MC heavily outside of rain on the LT map.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
The bold parts don't make sense to me they contradict.
Its safer to go banshee against MC than drops( because banshee's take longer and cost more?)
Terrans don't have to wall withstandard 3 rax into Medivac bio ball.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf0yy8_poltprime-vs-jangminchul-round-of-6_videogames There you go 1340 is about where it starts you may remember this game. Polt is basically playing the way many terrans use to play with drop play and stim abuse of MMM. Now you will probably counter with BUT MC didnt go stargate tech. Again that discussion will go on forever. Or you will say this is season 1 well know one did this to Mangchul in Season 3 so we don't know what would have happened.
Banshees come faster than drops because you can't generally drop with your first medivac. It involves taking all your units and putting them into a 100/100 unit that does nothing but heals and moves. On the other hand, banshees can attack. Heck, you don't even need to research cloak; the first banshee would be enough to force what you want. Few players get to starport tech though, because of MC's aggressiveness.
This is precisely why Terrans wait for stim and multiple medivacs if they're going to go for drop play. If they go with the first medivac they can get backstabbed or deflected and then countered. A lost banshee isn't as bad as losing a medivac and a bunch of units.
Also, medivacs don't force robo or cannons. The toss often will just add more stalkers and get HTs for feedback. With banshees, the forced robo/cannons delay tech that helps deal with banshees, such as stargate or HT tech. Drop play doesn't delay anything unless it does significant damage. Banshees, in a sense, do guaranteed damage for less risk.
So no, ITR would not fare better because he's fond of using drops. MC's current style is such that ITR would either not survive to tech, or he would be able to counter it even more easily than banshees because you don't need observers for medivacs.
And besides, who actually survived long enough to get drops? Rain did once. MC had HTs though; feedback=bane of medivacs.
Jinro got destroyed well before he would have gotten a starport even if he teched to it (and he didn't)
Marineking probably had the best chance, but he doesn't like starport tech anyway.
There is nothing that would suggest that ITR would survive MC's aggressiveness. ITR has shown that he is bad at holding off early aggression. Watch some of his replays on sc2rep. FD often takes advantage of this and all-ins. MK all-inned ITR early.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
As many many people have stated in this thread the norm for toss is Robo play many protoss will agree and many non-protoss players have said the same thing. That is what makes his style different yes he goes stargate but thats not instant win. Other Toss players went stargate also and it wasn't instant win its not like people just discovered stargates and voidrays.
Now you are moving into total theorycrafting territory. Your last paragragh is filled with many what-ifs and what nots. Which can go on forever and ever. If Terran does this MC does that. Nope sorry not gonna get me to join that one. I am stating that ITR uses alot of drop play that is fact as evidence of his TvP and TvZ. So who knows how MC will react (you certainly do not and neither do I) no one tried it against MC heavily outside of rain on the LT map.
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
The bold parts don't make sense to me they contradict.
Its safer to go banshee against MC than drops( because banshee's take longer and cost more?)
Terrans don't have to wall withstandard 3 rax into Medivac bio ball.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf0yy8_poltprime-vs-jangminchul-round-of-6_videogames There you go 1340 is about where it starts you may remember this game. Polt is basically playing the way many terrans use to play with drop play and stim abuse of MMM. Now you will probably counter with BUT MC didnt go stargate tech. Again that discussion will go on forever. Or you will say this is season 1 well know one did this to Mangchul in Season 3 so we don't know what would have happened.
Banshees come faster than drops because you can't generally drop with your first medivac. It involves taking all your units and putting them into a 100/100 unit that does nothing but heals and moves. On the other hand, banshees can attack. Heck, you don't even need to research cloak; the first banshee would be enough to force what you want. Few players get to starport tech though, because of MC's aggressiveness.
This is precisely why Terrans wait for stim and multiple medivacs if they're going to go for drop play. If they go with the first medivac they can get backstabbed or deflected and then countered. A lost banshee isn't as bad as losing a medivac and a bunch of units.
Also, medivacs don't force robo or cannons. The toss often will just add more stalkers and get HTs for feedback. With banshees, the forced robo/cannons delay tech that helps deal with banshees, such as stargate or HT tech. Drop play doesn't delay anything unless it does significant damage. Banshees, in a sense, do guaranteed damage for less risk.
So no, ITR would not fare better because he's fond of using drops. MC's current style is such that ITR would either not survive to tech, or he would be able to counter it even more easily than banshees because you don't need observers for medivacs.
And besides, who actually survived long enough to get drops? Rain did once. MC had HTs though; feedback=bane of medivacs.
Jinro got destroyed well before he would have gotten a starport even if he teched to it (and he didn't)
Marineking probably had the best chance, but he doesn't like starport tech anyway.
There is nothing that would suggest that ITR would survive MC's aggressiveness. ITR has shown that he is bad at holding off early aggression. Watch some of his replays on sc2rep. FD often takes advantage of this and all-ins. MK all-inned ITR early.
Here you go ITR TvP http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1217 complete with Early Pressure (4Gate Stalker while ITR is Fast Expoing) and he comes back because he holds the pressure off. This looks like it suggests he can handle aggressive play. I dont know you tell me.
and TvT early pressure can not be compared to PvT or ZvT or PvP or ZvZ early pressure they are all different and different dynamics of how you handle each.
Drops keep a protoss immobile and can give map control to terran. Protoss is probably most immobile race (unless terran adds thors or tanks and not many terrans do in TvP)
But we are way off topic here so I wont derail any longer. The point I am making is that you can not use GSL season 3 to say that no terran can TvP. You ignored what I said at the end of my last post. You say that because terran can play against robo tech that doesnt mean they understand TvP. Same token because Terrans Cant play against Stargate tech doesn't mean they dont. So using the GSL season 3 does nothing and still does nothing to validate your point that Top Terrans can't TvP and that is why MC won.
On December 20 2010 12:42 Node wrote: I think the key here is how much MC puts into avoiding the colossus. Remember the Day9 daily where he's all about delaying the colossus and focusing on other stuff? (#219 btw) It's very reminiscent of what MC has been doing all season long.
I've been watching Huk's stream a lot and the ease at which Terran usually stomps all over his colossus army with basic m&m&m is pretty ridiculous. (sorry Huk) I think the over-reliance by protoss on robo units, the colossus in particular is what has been holding them back. In game 1 vs. Rain, MC gets a robo and produces lots and lots of immortals, but never even throws up the support bay, and annihilates Rain's army which had quite a few marines (usually seen as strong against the immortal).
He annihilated that contain at his expo with heavy immortals because: he actually used his phoenix prior to lure out most of the marines way back behind the tanks. Then he engages, marines run back but too late, the zealots are already on top of the first bunkers/tank line. Uses phoenix to lift a bunch of tanks which kept the zealots alive to engage all the marines THEN you can see him micro his immortals to focus down tanks.
The kind of divide and conquer and sense of the battlefield is what makes him so good. Under normal situations, that push would never succeed. The tanks will rape the zealots (or severely damage), then the marines can clean them up and the immortals will be sitting ducks.
Similar situation with the Jinro game, void ray pulls most of the marines up the ramp to defend, then he rushes into the expo bunker line.
I think he is confident enough not to require early robo because his early pressure will rarely allow his opponents to tech up to counter his lack of obs. This allows an easy expo and then he can macro/tech up.
On December 20 2010 05:04 xiaofan wrote: imo it's more of a stylistic thing to choose ht over colossus. there's been plenty of colossus play this season in gsl, and also plenty of colossus play online. and as p u need a robo anyways if t goes banshees (ie game 3) so it's natural to follow up with immortal colossus from there.
what? how is the choice between colossus and HT stylistic??? the choice depends highly on the Ts composition and on the map + you need either a tech advantage early on or a economic advantage if you go for colossus or T can counter the shit out of you.