oGsMC won GSL Open Season 3 in a dominating fashion. Throughout the whole season, he has shown that his PvT is completely insane. He destroyed 3 terrans in a row in a fashion no other protoss has shown. What's more interesting is that in his interview after the finals, he said that other protoss players don't seem to understand PvT well enough. So what epiphany did oGsMC have regarding this match-up? I'd like to review his games in Season 3 and attempt to figure it out.
From round of 64, he played against 5 different terran players for 15-2 record. Let's look at each game.
Ro64 vs. OdinMvP 1. Jungle Basin. After fast expansion, he defended cloaked banshee and pushed with sentry heavy warp gate units. 2. Sakuras Plateau. Started with phoenix harass into expansion. Won with warp gate units with phoenix and colossus mixed in.
Ro32 vs. oGsHyperdub 1. Steppes of War. Used fast void ray to break the entrance and got stalkers in. Defended cloaked banshee afterwards. 2. Blistering Sands. 4 warp gate push with heavy stalker composition. Terran also had 4 racks, but was marine heavy.
Ro8 vs. MarineKingPrime 1. Lost Temple. 1 stargate, 3 warp gates. Using void ray to spot, he continually summoned into terran's base and outmicroed marines. 2. Delta Quadrant. Defended the bunker rush. Expanded and teched to colossus, but lost to MMM before colossus was out. 3. Blistering Sands. Proxy gateway. Won with zealots 4. Jungle Basin. 4 warp gate rush to back door against terran expo. Did substantial damage, but was defended. teched to DT, which didn't do much. Won the center fight with HTs, then later mixed in colossus to win.
Ro4 vs. LiquidJinro 1. Steppes of War. Early game zealot rush into stalker 2. Xel'naga Caverns. 3 warp gate 6 sentry expand. Pushed soon after to kill Jinro's expansion despite having 2 bunkers up. Notable forcefields on the bunkers to prevent repairing. 3. Sakuras Plateau. 1 stargate 3 warp gates against fast expo. used void rays to pull marines into main base, then broke through bunkers at the expo. 4. Jungle Basin. Fast DT tech against Thor rush. Won in the base trade.
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 1. Delta Quadrant. Void ray, stalker harassed terran choke. Phoenix heavy afterwards. Broke marine, tank, bunker contain with heavy zealot, phoenix and immortal army. 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win. 3. Xel'naga Caverns. 3 warp gate 6 sentry expand against what he thought was 2 racks rush. Heavy damage to banshees. Techs to colossus, but vikings clean them up for the loss. 4. Steppes of War. Proxy gateway in terran's base. Zealot push into stalker. 5. Jungle Basin. 4 warp gate rush against upgraded hellion drop. Broke the choke easily with forcefields.
Looking at his 15 wins, he went warp gate units 8 times, stargate 6 times, and templar tech once. He didn't go robotics tech first in any of his wins!!! Even his templar tech was for dark templar, not fast high templar tech. In two games he went robotics tech first, he lost the game before any colossus was in play. It is common understanding that you want colossus and/or high templars against what is conceived as superior terran ground army. If so, why did oGsMC go for heavy warp gate or stargate first play in majority of his games? The answer is surprisingly simple. It's time and price.
High Templar: Twilight Council (150/100, 50 sec), Templar Archives (150/200, 50 sec), High Templar (50/150, 5 sec), Psionic Storm (200/200, 110 sec) = 550/650, 215 sec and there's the amulet upgrade (150/150, 110 sec).
On the other hand Phoenix: Stargate (150/150, 60 sec), Phoenix (150/100, 45 sec) = 300/250, 105 sec Void Ray: Stargate (150/150, 60 sec), Void Ray (250/150, 65 sec) = 400/300, 125 sec
Not just simple price comparison, but also the time it takes to get such unit plays a large role, Especially, void ray has an impact in the game as soon as 1 or 2 come out. Also, you can spend spend the extra money and time to bulk up the warp gate units. If you are going for colossus as normal, protoss usually plays defensively relying on sentries and rarely come out until couple colossus with upgrades are out. This is complete opposite of how oGsMC plays. He opts for faster and cheaper warp gate heavy or stargate tech, bulks up his early/mid game army and plays offensively. You can see his PvT philosophy here. Never let terran alone, harass with whatever you have and make the terran play defensively, thus gaining map control.
If you review oGsMC's PvT games, it's always him attacking first unless terran is cheesing. Colossus or High Templar tech is simply too expensive and too slow to follow his philosophy. In case of void ray, it forces terran to go marine heavy to combat it. So oGsMC mixes in heavy stalker army and outmicros the marines. In this case, it is extremely difficult for terran to balance his army out with the right number of marines and marauders to properly fight stalkers/void rays.
Another advantage void ray brings is regarding terran's choke. If you block the entrance with buildings, stalkers and void rays come and harass the front, usually destroying couple supply depots and barracks addon. If you opt not to wall in, protoss has an option of playing with heavy warp gate units, including early game zealot rush. You've seen that protoss can break through terran wall in even with bunkers using 4 warp gate rush, largely relying on sentries. How is terran suppose to defend without wall in?
Let's look at his build choices even further In his 9 wins using gateway units, he went proxy gate 3 times, 4 warp gates 3 times, heavy warp gate units excluding 4 warp gates twice, and DT once. In his 6 wins using stargate tech, he went void rays 4 times and phoenix twice. Surprisingly he wins large number of his games using only gateway units, despite the consensus that barracks units are stronger and more efficient than warp gate units. So how does he pull this off? It's all about timing. In extreme early game, thanks to chrono boost and frustratingly long marine build time, zealots can dominate the marines and micro them to do devastating economic damage. oGsMC uses this fact and uses proxy gate very very effectively. Once warp gate upgrade finishes, protoss has short period of time when he can out produce the terran thanks to shorter cooldown on units and getting units up front. So when is this advantage the greatest? When terran stops producing units to put up addons, especially reactors. There are at least 2 games when he pushes during this precise moment. This is something that can only come from practicing countless times and learn the timing by heart. Something we can call progamer's timing. Considering widely accepted OP-ness of marines and marauders, oGsMC looked to break that thought and seeked his own timing to break the terran.
What should also be noted is his uses of sentries. This isn't really anything new. Since the beginning, forcefield has been thought of as one of the most powerful skill in the game. In his games, he gets few sentries early game and gathers energy on them, which makes his timing push mentioned earlier much more powerful. He wants numerous forcefield and guardian shield during his attack and this requires a lot of energy. Also, sentry isn't a simple support unit. At 40/40 hp and 1 armor, it can take decent amount of damage (thanks to marauder bonus damage, both stalkers and sentries die in 9 hits), and its dps is 6, and considering stalker and non-stimpack marine are slightly under 7, it's not bad at all.
To summarize (TL:DR) 1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades) 3. use the warp gate's advantage to the fullest by exploiting reactor's slow build time and lack of units 4. Fully utilize sentries. Get them early and gather mana to abuse forcefields and guardian's shield. 5. Use heavy warp gate army or stargate tech, especially void rays, to play aggressively and harass terran. 6. Use the early game army advantage to gain map control. 7. Add in colossus and high templars much later once macro game kicks in.
shouldn't you put this in a spoiler? Or name it something else.
I agree, I've always thought protoss was stronger then everyone made it out to be. I wouldn't say imba, but I would say strong. Everyone just needs to learn how to use toss better.
imo it's more of a stylistic thing to choose ht over colossus. there's been plenty of colossus play this season in gsl, and also plenty of colossus play online. and as p u need a robo anyways if t goes banshees (ie game 3) so it's natural to follow up with immortal colossus from there.
could this be our salvation? we'll have to play around with it and see. also u need beastly micro to do this without slipping on ur macro for sure so its not for players who are struggling to get the basics.
On December 20 2010 05:04 Knutzi wrote: i really like his 1 voidray into robo + pheonix, it seems really strong since almost every terran go blind cloak banshee and hope for an easy win
The game that he used pheonixes was because rain kept trying to use a seige tank push on him. The pheonixes were to lift tanks up, and try and shoot down anything giving his tanks vision (especially of high ground)
this is a really nice post. it does seem his MCs play style contradicts the "common knowledge" that barracks units > gateway units. the void ray build times and costs vs the colosuss and HT are pretty interesting too. people seemed to just give up on voidray builds after Terrans caught up and began stopping the all-in voidray harasses. this became even worse after the voidray nerf.
all of this seems to suggest that people need to stop giving up on figuring out different ways to play. people give in too much to stereotypes and end up just laughing at people who contradict "common knowledge" even if its wrong.
I don't think you can pin one specific style on MC, as you can see he did a bunch of different things in all his matchups rather than rely on one specific build to crush what most terrans are doing. You can point out some things he favors in his play, such as void ray/gateway mixes, early aggression, and delayed tier 3 tech, but I think this sells his success a bit short. I think he's good PvT because he has top notch mechanics, and he understands the matchup at a level most other protoss simply haven't gotten to yet. He knows what Terran is capable of, and what Protoss is capable of and exploits it.
I think once the update comes and phoenix time is decreased as well as obs being cheaper were gonna see less and less collossus. Gateway units are cheaper, take less time to build and its easier to mass gateways and reinforce than to pump out of stargates or robo bays. Gateway units are and always have been the lynchpin of pvt, people are just realizing it now.oGsMC doesnt do anything but have to the confidence in his micro to use his units and not lose them.
I think a lot of people will start favoring 2 tech paths instead of just a single tech, it makes it harder for Terran to counter you and you have more options to react to his play. The price of buildings is negligible in the long run and will never be critical unless you are countering some all-in, in which case, sentries can save your life. Also unless you are hell bent on FE, always take that second gas for more sentries, P early game is defined by those.
One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style.
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote:
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients.
Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
On December 20 2010 05:02 Tha_Docta wrote: Spoiler pls?
As a terran, watching MC play really scares the hell out of me, not gonna lie. His play just seems so impossible to stop, he makes it look so easy.
Why spoiler ? I'm pretty sure everyone knows the results already. If you don't want to know how games went you can leave right after reading first lines.
I'm rather surprises how many people want those spoilers tag ......
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
Didn't he win a macro game against Rain on Lost Temple? I recall it went on for more than half and hour and he was on 3+ bases as was Rain. So I don't think we can say he won't win a game that goes into a macro style.
First I want to say thank you for this break down. Hopefully many people read the entire OP(keyword hopefully).
Now to the OP what about Banshee play? I watched the majority of his games and read your re-caps. How does the timing work out if terran is rushing banshee? Would the results have been different?
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
This is uninformed. Everyone that watched the finals should remember that Lost temple game he built every tech structure on 1 base in the beginning. If that is not significant enough to remember I don't know what is. Then the game went into the long macro game.
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
Didn't he win a macro game against Rain on Lost Temple? I recall it went on for more than half and hour and he was on 3+ bases as was Rain. So I don't think we can say he won't win a game that goes into a macro style.
This uninformed. Everyone that watch the finals should remember that Lost temple game he built every tech structure on 1 base in the beginning. If that is not significant enough to remember I don't know what is. Then the game went into the long macro game.
So youre saying you agree that he won a macro game...? Elaborate please
On December 20 2010 05:29 oZii wrote: First I want to say thank you for this break down. Hopefully many people read the entire OP(keyword hopefully).
Now to the OP what about Banshee play? I watched the majority of his games and read your re-caps. How does the timing work out if terran is rushing banshee? Would the results have been different?
He lost to Banshees on Xel'Naga in the finals. Rain actually faked a second barracks and built a handful of Marauders to fake MC out.
MC does a lot of early pressure, I suspect he's somewhat confident in his early pressure wrecking (or at least scouting) a Banshee build. It takes ~8 minutes to get to get to cloak, unless Terran is doing some gas-before-rax shens which are super easy to scout.
The only other Terran that I would like to see MC matched up against is Rainbow as hes the only solid Terran I've seen take down numerous top level Protoss players decisively.
On December 20 2010 05:15 Aquafresh wrote: I don't think you can pin one specific style on MC, as you can see he did a bunch of different things in all his matchups rather than rely on one specific build to crush what most terrans are doing. You can point out some things he favors in his play, such as void ray/gateway mixes, early aggression, and delayed tier 3 tech, but I think this sells his success a bit short. I think he's good PvT because he has top notch mechanics, and he understands the matchup at a level most other protoss simply haven't gotten to yet. He knows what Terran is capable of, and what Protoss is capable of and exploits it.
I think you are just reiterating my point, although my post is so long that it may not have been very clear. As I said, MC mentioned in his interview, he feels that other protoss doesn't understand terran match up as well as he does. His "style" or approach to PvT is to stay aggressive and harass terran and break him if you can. Warp gate heavy or stargate first builds play well into this philosophy as seen in his choice of early game tech trees. When I mention tech, I'm strictly speaking about his first choice out of the 3 (well actually 4 if you count warp gate only plays).
On December 20 2010 05:29 oZii wrote: First I want to say thank you for this break down. Hopefully many people read the entire OP(keyword hopefully).
Now to the OP what about Banshee play? I watched the majority of his games and read your re-caps. How does the timing work out if terran is rushing banshee? Would the results have been different?
Even with 1 stargate, 3 warp gate builds, if he scouts or suspect banshee play, he can get robo and get an observer after 1st void ray. The timing works out because cloak upgrade takes so long. In his game 3 against Rain, he was tricked into thinking it was early racks aggression, so he expanded with sentry heavy army and kept getting more units. If he suspected banshee, he could've gotten robo by stop making units out of warp gates (basically not stay at 1 zealot 6 sentries for a while) and he wouldn't have taken so much damage even with expansion up.
I like MCs focus on gateway units instead of tech units, Thats something i would like to learn from. So many people rely on getting a fairly fast colossus but MC always relies on his gateway units and tech's to HT or Colossi later on in the game. He almost never goes robo off of one base too and i think that's important because he has shown that a super early robo is often worse then just having a strong gateway force. He relies on pushing early to shut down banshees and he does not get detection way before he needs it which is also cool to see.
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote: Colossus: Robo (200/100, 65 sec), Robo Bay (200/200, 65 sec), Colossus (300/200, 75 sec), Thermal Lacne (200/200, 140 sec) = 900/700, 345 sec
Termal Lance can be started as soon as you have the robo bay, no need to wait for the Colossus to finish.
Robo 65 sec -> Bay 65 sec -> Lance 140 sec -> Colossus 75 sec.
if you use a Chronoboost on the Colossus and the Lance each, you will have a upgraded Colossus 245 seconds after tech-start. wich is a full 90 sec sooner then what you claimed.
that is that.
on topic:
MC's TvP is very strong indeed, but i disagree that it is due to delayed tech in favor off more gateway units. his PvT and probably also PvZ looks so sick powerfull because he abuses forcefields, wich is a utterly broken spell. that, in it self, is nothing new, you have to have Colossus, High Templars or Forcefields to be able to beat Zerg or Terran as a protoss player. what makes MC special is the fact that he does not miss with his forcefields, wich is also the reason that most protoss that will try to copy his style will fail.. they WILL miss forcefields and will in turn get lol-stomped by the enemy army.
Besides not getting a fast Robo, I didn't find his early game play that interesting. It seemed like the typical protoss aggression that is usually criticized here, but done with better timing and better control.
What impressed me more was the few glimpses at his late-game. The army compositions that he was using just almost seemed unstoppable. His focus on Immortal/HT/Zealot in the final LT game was able to break him out of situations that seemed unbeatable and utterly destroy similar/superior armies. That along with his heavy use of Warp Prisms I found to be far more impressive than his 4 warpgate/3 warp gate, stargate rushes.
It's too bad we were mostly just stuck seeing him do early attacks. I hope in the next S-Class tournament, we can see some more of his late game.
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote: Colossus: Robo (200/100, 65 sec), Robo Bay (200/200, 65 sec), Colossus (300/200, 75 sec), Thermal Lacne (200/200, 140 sec) = 900/700, 345 sec
Termal Lance can be started as soon as you have the robo bay, no need to wait for the Colossus to finish.
Robo 65 sec -> Bay 65 sec -> Lance 140 sec -> Colossus 75 sec.
if you use a Chronoboost on the Colossus and the Lance each, you will have a upgraded Colossus 245 seconds after tech-start. wich is a full 90 sec sooner then what you claimed.
that is that.
on topic:
MC's TvP is very strong indeed, but i disagree that it is due to delayed tech in favor off more gateway units. his PvT and probably also PvZ looks so sick powerfull because he abuses forcefields, wich is a utterly broken spell. that, in it self, is nothing new, you have to have Colossus, High Templars or Forcefields to be able to beat Zerg or Terran as a protoss player. what makes MC special is the fact that he does not miss with his forcefields, wich is also the reason that most protoss that will try to copy his style will fail.. they WILL miss forcefields and will in turn get lol-stomped by the enemy army.
so youre able to research thermal lance AND make a colossus when your bay finishes? off one base? plz tell me your build order
On December 20 2010 06:09 gr8ape wrote: so youre able to research thermal lance AND make a colossus when your bay finishes? off one base? plz tell me your build order
no, you start the termal lance and 1 minute later the Colossus, giving you the Colossus exactly 5 seconds before Termal lance will be finished. as i said, it gives you a upgraded Colossus substantialy faster then going Colossus first.
On December 20 2010 06:09 gr8ape wrote: so youre able to research thermal lance AND make a colossus when your bay finishes? off one base? plz tell me your build order
no, you start the termal lance and 1 minute later the Colossus, giving you the Colossus exactly 5 seconds before Termal lance will be finished. as i said, it gives you a upgraded Colossus substantialy faster then going Colossus first.
But only one.
Wouldn't it be better to have two unupgraded Colossi?
On December 20 2010 06:09 gr8ape wrote: so youre able to research thermal lance AND make a colossus when your bay finishes? off one base? plz tell me your build order
no, you start the termal lance and 1 minute later the Colossus, giving you the Colossus exactly 5 seconds before Termal lance will be finished. as i said, it gives you a upgraded Colossus substantialy faster then going Colossus first.
But only one.
Wouldn't it be better to have two unupgraded Colossi?
On December 20 2010 06:29 Severedevil wrote: Wouldn't it be better to have two unupgraded Colossi?
no? two unpgraded Colossus that tower above your army will simply deliver some damage until they are focused down by the terran army, who has mostly the same 6 range as a unupgraded COlossus. a 9 range Colossus will probably live longer then two unpgraded ones and deal more damage, but the most importand part is that a upgraded Colossus stops a terran bioball from kiting your gateway army without suffering damage... something even 4 upgraded Colossus could not do.
sort of off topic thought... and was only a short remark to the OP that was not intended to derail the topic.
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
Didn't he win a macro game against Rain on Lost Temple? I recall it went on for more than half and hour and he was on 3+ bases as was Rain. So I don't think we can say he won't win a game that goes into a macro style.
This uninformed. Everyone that watch the finals should remember that Lost temple game he built every tech structure on 1 base in the beginning. If that is not significant enough to remember I don't know what is. Then the game went into the long macro game.
So youre saying you agree that he won a macro game...? Elaborate please
Game 2 was like a little over 30 minutes game had mutliple bases multiple drops dt drops, harassment all over the place by both players. MC won that game.
2. Blistering Sands. 4 warp gate push with heavy stalker composition. Terran also had 4 racks, but was marine heavy.
It was a 2 gate push where the second gate was proxied by the terran's xel'naga, 2 more gates were never thrown down. The pressure was actually setting up for an expansion/possible tech (dt's or colossus).
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote:
2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
Should be noted that he went stargate, robo, 4 gates, and dt tech all off 1 base before expanding to another main and soon after at his natural. First expansion went down at about 12 minutes, not long before his main was mined out. Also should be noted the use of warp prisms/blink to take advantage of the tank heavy composition's immobility.
On December 20 2010 05:15 Aquafresh wrote: I don't think you can pin one specific style on MC, as you can see he did a bunch of different things in all his matchups rather than rely on one specific build to crush what most terrans are doing. You can point out some things he favors in his play, such as void ray/gateway mixes, early aggression, and delayed tier 3 tech, but I think this sells his success a bit short. I think he's good PvT because he has top notch mechanics, and he understands the matchup at a level most other protoss simply haven't gotten to yet. He knows what Terran is capable of, and what Protoss is capable of and exploits it.
I think you are just reiterating my point, although my post is so long that it may not have been very clear. As I said, MC mentioned in his interview, he feels that other protoss doesn't understand terran match up as well as he does. His "style" or approach to PvT is to stay aggressive and harass terran and break him if you can. Warp gate heavy or stargate first builds play well into this philosophy as seen in his choice of early game tech trees. When I mention tech, I'm strictly speaking about his first choice out of the 3 (well actually 4 if you count warp gate only plays).
On December 20 2010 05:29 oZii wrote: First I want to say thank you for this break down. Hopefully many people read the entire OP(keyword hopefully).
Now to the OP what about Banshee play? I watched the majority of his games and read your re-caps. How does the timing work out if terran is rushing banshee? Would the results have been different?
Even with 1 stargate, 3 warp gate builds, if he scouts or suspect banshee play, he can get robo and get an observer after 1st void ray. The timing works out because cloak upgrade takes so long. In his game 3 against Rain, he was tricked into thinking it was early racks aggression, so he expanded with sentry heavy army and kept getting more units. If he suspected banshee, he could've gotten robo by stop making units out of warp gates (basically not stay at 1 zealot 6 sentries for a while) and he wouldn't have taken so much damage even with expansion up.
Ok thanks for explaining I figured that was the case,
About MC not being able to play a macro game. I remember reading somewhere that in the games of jinro vs MC, Jinro went for slightly less safe economic openings because he felt he needed an advantage over MC if the game were to go to the later stages.
If the above is actually true then it definitely sounds like MC macro isn't lacking in the least. I think the reason we dont see long games with him isn't so much that isn't his strong point, but his first pushes are just too damn strong.
MC has some awesome builds and really dominating approach to PvT - but i feel this comes to down to truly understanding the Terran gameplay. By scouting i feel he is able to anticipate exactly what is coming. His aggressive play works because he is able to know exactly what he is against and how to respond. The amount of practice games MC has racked up makes him incredibly confident in the predicitability of the Terran play.
This is a guy who is vowing to study CAMERA MOVEMENTS so he can properly do a ceremony. His dedication to his practice must be ridonculous. /sarcasm
If the ghost wasn't so expensive MC probably would not have won this GSL, and his PvP and PvZ are not anything special. Btw in this 1.2 state of the game he deserved to win and showed us a lot of entertainment matches
On December 20 2010 07:02 envect wrote: If the ghost wasn't so expensive MC probably would not have won this GSL, and his PvP and PvZ are not anything special. Btw in this 1.2 state of the game he deserved to win and showed us a lot of entertainment matches
So expensive? I gaves T a storm-class spell for about half the cost of investment of templar tech. That's enough.
He showed us that we were wrong in thinking protoss were weak. I might go back to playing protoss with the current metagame, now that all counters to what a terran can do are known. Sentries always looked weak to me, but in the OP's analysis the math says otherwise (takes the same number of marauder shots as a stalker to die). So it was just an impression. Of course MM will win vs gateway units if played straight, Protoss are balanced to work with forcefields, that's when you get the true power of the protoss army. It's really more a metagame advancement than a balance problem, and btw Protoss are even getting the first buff in ages next patch :D It seems that the rule that whoever wins GSL then gets buffed is right again.
On December 20 2010 07:02 envect wrote: If the ghost wasn't so expensive MC probably would not have won this GSL, and his PvP and PvZ are not anything special. Btw in this 1.2 state of the game he deserved to win and showed us a lot of entertainment matches
And so it begins (derailing the topic and theorycrafting) then making it seem ok by adding in the compliment.
We are just talking about his style of PvT not ghosts balance or theorycrafting changes blizz should make. Stay on topic please I beg of you.
I don't think MC has a style. He plays like a real progamer should - strong in all areas of the game, uses units to counter what his enemy is doing, focuses on controlling the game and dominating his opponent through aggression right from the start.
His builds all focus on a lot of early-game aggression, but if you notice none of them are all-ins and all just serve as lead-offs to further lategame macro play. He's just an aggressive player, is all, not a specifically early-game player. He doesn't favor any particular unit or style like Foxer or someone, he uses everything available to the Protoss race and whatever is necessary to counter what his opponent's doing.
I'm really looking forward to MC's performance in GSL 2011.
I wasn't at all impressed with any of oGsMC's strategies. He had decent micro but nothing special. What I was impressed by his really good sense of what his army could beat and what he had to run away from. This is a really hard skill to master and I think even most pros haven't managed it yet.
...except this may not be his? this was originally posted on PlayXP in korean, i remember reading it yesterday. i'm at work now and playxp is blocked so i can't post the original link right now.
good job with translating though, just make sure you include the link to the original article next time and credit the appropriate author.
On December 20 2010 05:20 Krychek wrote: One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style.
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients.
Not only that but he got the warp prism upgrades. Actually I think he got the obs upgrade as well!
On December 20 2010 09:06 GoldenH wrote: I wasn't at all impressed with any of oGsMC's strategies. He had decent micro but nothing special. What I was impressed by his really good sense of what his army could beat and what he had to run away from. This is a really hard skill to master and I think even most pros haven't managed it yet.
This is a good point (though I was impressed by his play overall). MC seems to have some of the best army evaluation out of any Protoss player I've seen PvT. Especially when it comes to bunkers, his confidence in breaking bunkers with FF to make his push work is pretty remarkable.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
On December 20 2010 09:06 GoldenH wrote: I wasn't at all impressed with any of oGsMC's strategies. He had decent micro but nothing special. What I was impressed by his really good sense of what his army could beat and what he had to run away from. This is a really hard skill to master and I think even most pros haven't managed it yet.
If you mean to say his "gamesense" is unmatched, then yes, you're very right. He knows exactly when to strike and where, and he knows when to pull back and when to push harder. Incredible.
Also, he must be hacking or something, because I don't know where he gets all that gas!
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul so I don't think inexperience is a good arguement. I think its just that a few Toss players have just learned to play. MC was 1 and done in GSL 1 losing to Polt Prime. His vT just became strong between GSL 1 and GSL 3. Which really highlights his dedication to getting better.
2010 TG Sambo-Intel Global StarCraft 2 League Open Season 1
PvT: 17-34 (33.3%)
2010 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Open Season 2
PvT: 18-26 (40.9%)
2010 Sony Ericsson Global StarCraft 2 League Open Season 3
PvT: 30-18 (62.5%)
Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
NexGenius who you mention
PvT
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
On December 20 2010 09:06 GoldenH wrote: I wasn't at all impressed with any of oGsMC's strategies. He had decent micro but nothing special. What I was impressed by his really good sense of what his army could beat and what he had to run away from. This is a really hard skill to master and I think even most pros haven't managed it yet.
If you mean to say his "gamesense" is unmatched, then yes, you're very right. He knows exactly when to strike and where, and he knows when to pull back and when to push harder. Incredible.
Also, he must be hacking or something, because I don't know where he gets all that gas!
Nah, I don't think his game sense was good at all, he was fooled on several occasions by his poor scouting, if he had better game sense he would have been ready for the consequences of what he didn't see.
The previous poster had the right word, army evaluation.
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
This is a bunch of theorycrafting. It sounds like - in theory - you should be in GSL yourself instead of TSLRain. You're basically saying that the Terrans could have won if they played flawlessly. orly? It's just silly that you say that there is absolutely no Terran player in the entire GSL who can play TvP properly.
Very good games. Terran didn't all in with SCV which is what he's strongest at. Too bad, if he would forget about other people opinions, he could have win the game with all-in. Then he'll make nerds all over the world raging.
I think the biggest thing to take away from MC is...
YOU DON'T HAVE TO OPEN ROBO... And in fact, robo openers are almost always inferior... Scout mass rax play? 3 gate sentry expand. Scout wallin with tech? X gate Voidray pressure.
The only weakness I can see for MC is: 1) he gets tricked (fake 2 rax into cloaked banshees; unscouted thor rush), 2) bratok ghost marine timing push should beat the sentry expand easily.
I think the key here is how much MC puts into avoiding the colossus. Remember the Day9 daily where he's all about delaying the colossus and focusing on other stuff? (#219 btw) It's very reminiscent of what MC has been doing all season long.
I've been watching Huk's stream a lot and the ease at which Terran usually stomps all over his colossus army with basic m&m&m is pretty ridiculous. (sorry Huk) I think the over-reliance by protoss on robo units, the colossus in particular is what has been holding them back. In game 1 vs. Rain, MC gets a robo and produces lots and lots of immortals, but never even throws up the support bay, and annihilates Rain's army which had quite a few marines (usually seen as strong against the immortal).
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote: I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
I felt like the reason MC skips the robo even though most 'toss think it's required is that he doesn't need the observer. I was noticing that any time he was even remotely uncertain of what the terran was doing, he would just attack with what he had and then make strategic decisions based on how the terran responded.
On December 20 2010 08:11 Krigwin wrote: I don't think MC has a style. He plays like a real progamer should - strong in all areas of the game, uses units to counter what his enemy is doing, focuses on controlling the game and dominating his opponent through aggression right from the start.
His builds all focus on a lot of early-game aggression, but if you notice none of them are all-ins and all just serve as lead-offs to further lategame macro play. He's just an aggressive player, is all, not a specifically early-game player. He doesn't favor any particular unit or style like Foxer or someone, he uses everything available to the Protoss race and whatever is necessary to counter what his opponent's doing.
I'm really looking forward to MC's performance in GSL 2011.
Man, he is constantly growing and when he is bound by a set of pattern of ideas or way of doing things, that's when he stops growing. - Bruce Lee
On December 20 2010 12:47 TheGiftedApe wrote: if you havent watched the finals and are on tl.net reading ogsmc thread you are a full on retard...and deserve to be spoiled.
Thumbs up!
I didnt watch the finals live, thats why i didnt visit tl.net till i saw the finals.
You must be a retard if you go onto a Starcraft site with the presumption, that you wont see any results of the games.
On December 20 2010 12:51 MoNoNauT wrote: I felt like the reason MC skips the robo even though most 'toss think it's required is that he doesn't need the observer. I was noticing that any time he was even remotely uncertain of what the terran was doing, he would just attack with what he had and then make strategic decisions based on how the terran responded.
Yeah, it's a risky tactic but it worked for him.
Personally I think MC would get colossus, he just never was in a position where he should sit back and mass them.
On December 20 2010 05:28 Shlowpoke wrote: I'd love to go through the matches and see if MC goes for a Void Ray push every time the Terran walls in. Does anyone know?
Yes, this is especially notable if you look at his strategies on the same map. In this case we can look at Steppes of War.
Against Hyperdub, he scouts the wall, spends his chrono on probes and then gets a Stargate and moves out with a handful of gateway units with his voidray. As he can't see what his opponent is doing he gets a robo after only building one Void Ray.
Against Jinro on Steppes of War he scouts that there is no wall and puts his chrono on Zealots while Core is building. As core finishes he switches to Stalkers. During this time he keeps building probes and expands. Around now MC is in Jinros base microing against SCVs and the gg comes when additional stalker has crossed the map.
I think alot of people are thinking MC "just" went one-base three tech paths on Lost Temple but what happened was evolutionary decision-making.
On the LT game, again he goes for a single Void Ray when he sees the wall-in. During his poke in the front he sees 1) he can't break it and 2) Rain is building a CC. So he has two options, expand and be behind or put pressure and expand. He decides to harass/put pressure with DTs, a decision very much based on their close air position.
Great, great player. Reactive time-attacking requires exceptional understanding.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
for those unaware of the pure awesomeness it was before the nerfs.
omg look at those nice animations. :D
thank god the Collossus doesnt shoot at a single marine at a time anymore. ^^ But i did like the animation of the Stalker shooting and of course the mothership skills.
On December 20 2010 13:09 synapse wrote: Cmon' guys, less rationalization and more blind fanboyism!
This just baffles me.
Ever since the days leading up to the semi-finals, I've seen so many people act unimpressed with oGsMC's strategic play. It really makes no sense to me. Everything he does is absolutely inspiring and displays an immensely deep understanding of the game. I don't understand what more can be expected from a player. He is playing much closer to "perfect" than any other protoss.
I challenge anyone to give me one good reason to doubt that MC far and away the best protoss player in the world right now, if not simply the best player. If for no other reason, MC should be appreciated for being one of the only protoss players to consider the colossus for what it is - a late game unit.
Great analysis. I think next season the Terrans will figure something out though, they are just so used to being safe that MC's pressure really got to them.
In the finals, the fourth and fifth games especially, it was clear that Rain's crisis management was subpar. I'm assuming it's because Terrans are not used to defending against Protoss early.
I mean, MC will probably still be awesome, but I think a Terran out there (Jinro? Nada?) will find a way. Then MC will come back and bust that strat... that's what makes this game so interesting!
On December 20 2010 14:40 toadstool wrote: He's revolutionary. No other Protoss has does what he done. If you watch Genius's play in the Blizzard invitational, it was all Collossi vs mmm.
Watch MC's games vs rain, and he's got a stargate, a robo AND 4-warpgates in the game on Lost Temple. What does a Terran do against that?
While I agree MC's play is different. Genius did go with Void Ray play in the Invitational. He went void ray expand also. People kinda gave him shit about it saying it was cheesy risky or noobie because he lost when he tried it. Genius didn't execute it as well as MC but he wasn't only colossus tech against MMM. He would try for colossus and then would fail but his opening mostly was a 1 gate fe style.
On December 20 2010 13:09 synapse wrote: Cmon' guys, less rationalization and more blind fanboyism!
This just baffles me.
Ever since the days leading up to the semi-finals, I've seen so many people act unimpressed with oGsMC's strategic play. It really makes no sense to me. Everything he does is absolutely inspiring and displays an immensely deep understanding of the game. I don't understand what more can be expected from a player. He is playing much closer to "perfect" than any other protoss.
I challenge anyone to give me one good reason to doubt that MC far and away the best protoss player in the world right now, if not simply the best player. If for no other reason, MC should be appreciated for being one of the only protoss players to consider the colossus for what it is - a late game unit.
Because he's winning with crappy builds that should have been easily beaten by the Terran.
Watching his games was like "Hey, do you know how to deal with Proxy gate? Nope? Oh I win. How about DTs? Okay, guess not. Do you scout for hidden expansions? Really? Not that either?"
MC does everything right, but the stuff he's doing, a terran has no excuse for not knowing how to counter, it's like, "You can't get past the top 50,000 on the ladder without knowing how to beat that, how is this guy in the GSL?"
oGsMC's interview says he has better builds for next year. So I'll hope to see better play soon. But will those builds he uses be 3+ months old by the time he uses? That's what will define how good a player he is.
I'll happily give MC the "best protoss in the world" title, because if he is as solid with better strategies as he is with the ones he used in the GSL, then hell yeah that's a toss.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
I really feel disgusted by those who claim MC win due to the lack of noteworthy opponents. Some even criticise his macro. Did any of you here has the replay of the match? Did you see him miss a probe or get pylon block? did you see his minerals and gas went over a 1000? If none of you have seen it, then u cannot criticise blindly.
MC did not win with crappy builds. he executed his builds well. Yes u need scan to beat a dark templar, but how many of you can actually spot the dark templar even in the middle of the battle. All the progamers know what units is best to counter the opponent, it is their inability to execute it due to many in game reasons none of us know. is easy to criticise, but how many of you actually know what is happening in the game.
On December 20 2010 13:09 synapse wrote: Cmon' guys, less rationalization and more blind fanboyism!
This just baffles me.
Ever since the days leading up to the semi-finals, I've seen so many people act unimpressed with oGsMC's strategic play. It really makes no sense to me. Everything he does is absolutely inspiring and displays an immensely deep understanding of the game. I don't understand what more can be expected from a player. He is playing much closer to "perfect" than any other protoss.
I challenge anyone to give me one good reason to doubt that MC far and away the best protoss player in the world right now, if not simply the best player. If for no other reason, MC should be appreciated for being one of the only protoss players to consider the colossus for what it is - a late game unit.
Because he's winning with crappy builds that should have been easily beaten by the Terran.
Watching his games was like "Hey, do you know how to deal with Proxy gate? Nope? Oh I win. How about DTs? Okay, guess not. Do you scout for hidden expansions? Really? Not that either?"
MC does everything right, but the stuff he's doing, a terran has no excuse for not knowing how to counter, it's like, "You can't get past the top 50,000 on the ladder without knowing how to beat that, how is this guy in the GSL?"
oGsMC's interview says he has better builds for next year. So I'll hope to see better play soon. But will those builds he uses be 3+ months old by the time he uses? That's what will define how good a player he is.
I'll happily give MC the "best protoss in the world" title, because if he is as solid with better strategies as he is with the ones he used in the GSL, then hell yeah that's a toss.
I am pretty sure u lost to cheesy all in before EVEN after you scouted it. Is about how you or ur opponent execute the rush rather then knowing what to do. dont talk like mc builds are crappy, you are the one who dont understand the reason behind what he do
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
Didn't he win a macro game against Rain on Lost Temple? I recall it went on for more than half and hour and he was on 3+ bases as was Rain. So I don't think we can say he won't win a game that goes into a macro style.
This uninformed. Everyone that watch the finals should remember that Lost temple game he built every tech structure on 1 base in the beginning. If that is not significant enough to remember I don't know what is. Then the game went into the long macro game.
So youre saying you agree that he won a macro game...? Elaborate please
Did you not watch that game? Was a long 40 minute game on LT. If thats not a macro game then I don't know what is.
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
Game 2 vs marine king. MC dominated proxy rax conc marauder. This guy is so solid I can't believe people would doubt him... -_-
I am pretty sure u lost to cheesy all in before EVEN after you scouted it. Is about how you or ur opponent execute the rush rather then knowing what to do. dont talk like mc builds are crappy, you are the one who dont understand the reason behind what he do
Try more like I've done those exact builds hundreds of times in the top 1000 players on the NA ladder and know their strengths/weaknesses, it's too bad, that his opponent doesn't. I don't perfectly execute them every time but at least I know what to do... better builds from MC are coming next year, we will see if MC is an innovator or not.
But even if he is not an innovator that is not necessary to be the best protoss.
Sure I lose to cheese that I see coming sometimes, even often. But it is because I am not a solid player and I because I experiment.
On December 20 2010 05:20 Krychek wrote: One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style.
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients.
HE GOT WARP PRISM SPEED UPGRADE. Like holy shit, he got that speed upgrade and used it in a hurricane of drop/warpin harass all over that game. Never seen play like that in SC2 yet.
On December 20 2010 05:20 Krychek wrote: One thing is totally true here: MC shows that compared to any other protoss he understands the match up like no other. I mean, in every season top P players were eliminated by terrans, but this guy just rape them appart. Is obvious that every pro is now studing his PvT aggro style.
Finals vs. TSL_Rain 2. Lost Temple. 1 stargate 3 warp gates. harasses terran choke again. After seeing marine tank composition again with observer, mixes in immortals and harasses a little with DT. Breaks terran contain with zealot immortal heavy army with HT mixed in. Added colossus to win.
MC also showed a never-seen level of warp prism harass in a protoss player at GSL level, specially considering how cost-unefficient are those drops. Well, MC make those look extremelly efficients.
he mentioned that in his interview. he saw a tank heavy army and it can't just keep up with the mobility of warp prism. it's pretty similar to how protoss slows down terran in BW by using reaver or dt drop.
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
Game 2 vs marine king. MC dominated proxy rax conc marauder. This guy is so solid I can't believe people would doubt him... -_-
There was even an interview question asking how he dealt with marauders so effectively. His mix of zealots and stalkers dealt with the proxy techlab rax in a way I've never seen before, against marineking's impressive and scary rax unit micro.
On December 20 2010 05:02 Tha_Docta wrote: Spoiler pls?
As a terran, watching MC play really scares the hell out of me, not gonna lie. His play just seems so impossible to stop, he makes it look so easy.
Why spoiler ? I'm pretty sure everyone knows the results already. If you don't want to know how games went you can leave right after reading first lines.
I'm rather surprises how many people want those spoilers tag ......
totally agree about the spoiler thing! was screaming inside my head after every post that said it, not even willing to discuss the true purpose of this article.
anyways great read! i honestly love using colossus in pvt, and have been somewhat conflicted in why day9 dislikes early colossus, but seeing the timings and multiple examples its great to think about. i will definitely be re-examining my pvt in the near future =]
Well there's no reason to stop using Collosi, but there's more weapons to the arsenal ^^ And as soon as more Protosses diverge from just going Collosi they will actually become more powerfull again, as the opponent won't always be preparing for them.
I think what most defines MC is his willingness to be aggressive in the early and mid-game without relying on cheese or all-ins. Most Toss don't do this in PvT--they either try to hold off pushes while macroing up and teching to T3, or they do some sort of all-in. Early and mid game aggression that is not only effective at doing damage in the short term but that also fits into a flexible vision for long term play...that's not usually a PvT strong suit.
Blizzard themselves said that T is strong early games and P strong late game in PvT/TvP, they even prepare patch 1.2 to balance this
so like Fruitdealer, MC show that the common perception is not always 100% true and for this he deserved to be called the best protoss
as for the LT match, shame that tartosis cant keep up with all the action. When MC break Rain's contain, you can clearly hear DT's killing Rain's scv in his main and half of his marines are on it ways there, leaving only half of his army in front of MC's base. Thats why he can break out with ease
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
As many many people have stated in this thread the norm for toss is Robo play many protoss will agree and many non-protoss players have said the same thing. That is what makes his style different yes he goes stargate but thats not instant win. Other Toss players went stargate also and it wasn't instant win its not like people just discovered stargates and voidrays.
Now you are moving into total theorycrafting territory. Your last paragragh is filled with many what-ifs and what nots. Which can go on forever and ever. If Terran does this MC does that. Nope sorry not gonna get me to join that one. I am stating that ITR uses alot of drop play that is fact as evidence of his TvP and TvZ. So who knows how MC will react (you certainly do not and neither do I) no one tried it against MC heavily outside of rain on the LT map.
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
The bold parts don't make sense to me they contradict.
Its safer to go banshee against MC than drops( because banshee's take longer and cost more?)
Terrans don't have to wall withstandard 3 rax into Medivac bio ball.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf0yy8_poltprime-vs-jangminchul-round-of-6_videogames There you go 1340 is about where it starts you may remember this game. Polt is basically playing the way many terrans use to play with drop play and stim abuse of MMM. Now you will probably counter with BUT MC didnt go stargate tech. Again that discussion will go on forever. Or you will say this is season 1 well no one did this to Mangchul in Season 3 so we don't know what would have happened.
This is standard TvP and Polt played it the way standard TvP is suppose to play and it can go either way. 50/50.
Another thing to consider is how many protoss didn't make it this time and there were a ton of mirrors. Again like I said before sample size is to small and to many factors to just say OMG no one can play TvP. It is such a general statement.
You also say if you look up stats for those that went Stargate first its skewed in the Toss Favor but that does still not equal=OMG they can't play TvP. That means they don't know how to handle TvP if the protoss goes Stargate. See using your same logic there. So by saying that if toss goes stargate you can't say that Terrans don't know how to TvP. Just like you say because Terrans can play against Robo doesnt mean they can.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
As many many people have stated in this thread the norm for toss is Robo play many protoss will agree and many non-protoss players have said the same thing. That is what makes his style different yes he goes stargate but thats not instant win. Other Toss players went stargate also and it wasn't instant win its not like people just discovered stargates and voidrays.
Now you are moving into total theorycrafting territory. Your last paragragh is filled with many what-ifs and what nots. Which can go on forever and ever. If Terran does this MC does that. Nope sorry not gonna get me to join that one. I am stating that ITR uses alot of drop play that is fact as evidence of his TvP and TvZ. So who knows how MC will react (you certainly do not and neither do I) no one tried it against MC heavily outside of rain on the LT map.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
The bold parts don't make sense to me they contradict.
Its safer to go banshee against MC than drops( because banshee's take longer and cost more?)
Terrans don't have to wall withstandard 3 rax into Medivac bio ball.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf0yy8_poltprime-vs-jangminchul-round-of-6_videogames There you go 1340 is about where it starts you may remember this game. Polt is basically playing the way many terrans use to play with drop play and stim abuse of MMM. Now you will probably counter with BUT MC didnt go stargate tech. Again that discussion will go on forever. Or you will say this is season 1 well know one did this to Mangchul in Season 3 so we don't know what would have happened.
Banshees come faster than drops because you can't generally drop with your first medivac. It involves taking all your units and putting them into a 100/100 unit that does nothing but heals and moves. On the other hand, banshees can attack. Heck, you don't even need to research cloak; the first banshee would be enough to force what you want. Few players get to starport tech though, because of MC's aggressiveness.
This is precisely why Terrans wait for stim and multiple medivacs if they're going to go for drop play. If they go with the first medivac they can get backstabbed or deflected and then countered. A lost banshee isn't as bad as losing a medivac and a bunch of units.
Also, medivacs don't force robo or cannons. The toss often will just add more stalkers and get HTs for feedback. With banshees, the forced robo/cannons delay tech that helps deal with banshees, such as stargate or HT tech. Drop play doesn't delay anything unless it does significant damage. Banshees, in a sense, do guaranteed damage for less risk.
So no, ITR would not fare better because he's fond of using drops. MC's current style is such that ITR would either not survive to tech, or he would be able to counter it even more easily than banshees because you don't need observers for medivacs.
And besides, who actually survived long enough to get drops? Rain did once. MC had HTs though; feedback=bane of medivacs.
Jinro got destroyed well before he would have gotten a starport even if he teched to it (and he didn't)
Marineking probably had the best chance, but he doesn't like starport tech anyway.
There is nothing that would suggest that ITR would survive MC's aggressiveness. ITR has shown that he is bad at holding off early aggression. Watch some of his replays on sc2rep. FD often takes advantage of this and all-ins. MK all-inned ITR early.
I'm gonna be honest here and say that I don't think that it was MC's "incredible playstyle" that won him games PvT. His PvT is solid, yes, but that's only because his opponents' TvPs were very much less than solid.
Currently, top level Protoss (consistently top level; Tester, Sangho, and Genius I would argue are not very consistent) are rare. Indeed, so are consistently good Terran players; they all are only good in one or two matchup. If you look at Z, you have Nestea and Fruit who are consistently good in ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP. MC is one of those players who is really strong PvT, while no Terran is good at TvP at all. I can't think of any Terran players who consistently play well outside of TvZ and TvT. MC vs Jinro was experience vs inexperience. Jinro is not used to the wild timings and aggressive style, nor does Jinro pressure very often.
T players, IMO, if they go bio, need to pressure early. Fast conc shells with a 2 rax push while teching or expanding, for example. Terran players need to be consistent with their wall-ins or lack thereof. Terran players need to learn to deal with early voidrays. Terran players need to learn to do something other than bio when their toss opponent opts to skip the robo. Terran players need to go banshee more often. Terran players need to learn to use PDD properly (Rain, I'm looking at you.) Terran players need to incorporate bio+ghost EMP timing pushes. Terran players need to incorporate biomech into their gameplay as the game progresses. Terran players need to know how to force a macrogame instead of 1 base timing attacks.
I could go on and on. Also, to those who said MC won a macro game on lost temple vs Rain, I highly disagree. MC could have done whatever he wanted; he didn't even play that well. He broke the contain with brute force instead of smartly doing it from the ledge. Rain didn't contain properly. MC overteched, Rain didn't scout, and therefore MC got away with it. Close air positions and both players forego air tech? WTF? MC used it to his advantage with warp prisms after he had practically already won. Rain timing attacked and did no damage; he threw away so many resources. No bunker hop, no tank push (just sit there and cross fingers)
Disappointing TvP more than good PvT, IMO.
Huh? I don't think you can say that there are NO terrans who are good at TvP. Jinro lives in the same house as oGsMC, oGsInca, on the same team as HuK and Nazgul.
Into the Rainbow
TvP
+ 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant Genius Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Genius Loss + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 Pippi Win + 10-10-22 GSL Open S2 Jungle Basin Pippi Win + 10-10-14 Brainbox Team Invi.. Lost Temple SC2 Squirtle Loss + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Steppes of War TesteR Win + 10-09-28 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis TesteR Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Kulas Ravine Keeping Win + 10-09-17 GSL Open S1 Metalopolis Keeping Win
Total 9-2
Next Genius who you mention
+ 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Rain Loss + 10-11-26 GSL Open S3 Jungle Basin Rain Loss + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Xel'Naga Ca.. Libero Win + 10-11-23 GSL Open S3 Metalopolis Libero Win + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Metalopolis RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Delta Quadrant RainBOw Loss + 10-11-01 GSL Open S2 Lost Temple SC2 RainBOw Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Xel'Naga Ca.. Sync Win + 10-10-27 GSL Open S2 Blistering Sands Sync Win + 10-10-13 Brainbox Team Invi.. Blistering Sands TOP Win + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Xel'Naga Ca.. DAVIT Loss + 10-09-13 GSL Open S1 Delta Quadrant DAVIT Loss
Total 6-7
ITR wins against Genius and Tester...who I claimed are inconsistent, and not very good P players IMO. And obviously the stats you point out show that genius is not good at PvT.
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant. Personally I don't think ITR can stand up to any of the current top players, especially not the oGs protosses. Guineapig, Choya, and Squirtle show promise as well.
Lastly, on Jinro: he may practice with the oGs members, but this doesn't mean that he's used to MC's timing attacks or MC's aggressiveness. Jinro showed that he was comfortable with colossus play, but it was obvious that he didn't have the experience to deal with stargate or warpgate pushes. Just compare his series vs Choya to the series vs MC. MC himself is not used to taking early pressure, and IMO this is why the Thor rush managed to do so much damage even though MC went for DTs. Jinro actually could have won that match if he had blocked the ramp after going in or if he could have saved his CC and SCVs. That would have been quite epic, seeing as DT builds counter Thor builds.
It's also important to note that Jinro was not aggressive in any of those first 3 matches. Imagine what could have happened if he spotted MC going pure sentry on xel naga. The offensive pressure delays the timing of the push, and would probably have allowed Jinro to prepare better.
I see you edited in more stats; again, they're old. Season 1 and even season 2 are not good sources for TvP statistics because the game has evolved much since. My reference to no good TvP players is in reference to right now, and truly, there aren't any good TvP players.
Huh how are your stats anymore relevant than the stats I posted? So basically what your saying is you are only looking at 1 Tournament just Season 3 and therefore that means there are no Terrans good in TvP? That makes no sense at all. So your reference to right now is incomplete because just using GSL season 3 in no way at all justifies the statement of "There are no Terrans good at TvP." Please explain to me how this makes sense in your thinking?
So that we don't lose site of this arguement here.
You are saying right now "There are no terrans good at TvP" justification for that is what? The most Current Tournament?
Into the Rainbow didn't even play a Toss in Season 3 so how do we know he wouldn't have rolled every Toss? Also how does that say that he isn't good anymore?
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
Second, these are old stats, and compared to MC's stats this season alone they aren't even statistically significant.
This also makes no sense to what you call relevant stats because MC only has a Good PvT this season. If you want I can grab you his stats also. There is nothing to suggest at all that MC would have Godly PvT he was only doing well this season. Season 2 he was outed by Nestea season 1 he was outed by PoltPrime(Terran) So using your way of thinking he shouldnt have went to the finals and won he played a Terran and a Zerg both races that eliminated him previously.
That was not the case which shows that you can't even use any of these states from any of the GSL at all because its way to small of a sample of games to go by. You are better off looking at all GSL and the PvT matchup as a whole in all 3 to find some trends. Not just 1 season
There is nothing to Suggest that in Season 4 IntotheRainbow will not be good at TvP as his stats show otherwise.
Your liqubets must be insane since you predict so well.
HERE
Iron(MC) here it shows he has become good at PvT in just season 3. Nothing at all previously suggests anything different. So where are you getting your references again?
So firstly, I agree that you can't get any real information about most matchups and most things from season to season. I think each season shows the "flavor of the month" or a snapshot of the state of the game, basically. Each season we've seen one or two players who single-handedly redefine the way we see a certain matchup. Unfortunately, due to the structure of the tournament, this means that any other matchups get buried because there aren't enough games with high level players to make conclusions.
Season 1 showed, for example, that few zergs knew how to beat Terrans (at the-then current state of the game). Fruitdealer was the exception, and he showed us that he was ahead of the trend in ZvT. It also showed us that most T players didn't know how to respond to this new style. It's hard to make conclusions about any other matchup or players really, because there weren't enough games.
Season 2 showed that TvZ was changing by way of Foxer. It also showcased Nestea and his ZvZ and TvZ styles. The final foreshadowed balanced TvZ as we know it now; 4-3 and game 7 could have easily gone either way. Now since season 3 we've seen TvZ stabilize; it's no longer heavily favored in one direction. Again, not much can be said about TvT or any of the P matchups; There were many TvTs but conflicting conclusions can be drawn from the results.
Season 3 reaffirmed that TvZ is stable, and we saw some changes in PvZ and PvT. Notably, less colossus in both matchups; PvZ was showcased by multiple players but only MC (like Fruitdealer and Foxer) showed a style that was "unbeatable" in PvT. We can't make conclusions about TvP because none of the Terran players did anything different; Terran players didn't know how to deal with MC's style, just like many T didn't know how to deal with FD, and many Z didn't know how to deal with Foxer.
In the upcoming months I think we'll see changes in the way Terran players attack TvP. Right now I stand by my previous statement that, currently, no Terran really can play PvT well. TSL_Rain...please.
Also, to the guy who said i'm theorycrafting and I should be in the finals, no, I'm not suggesting I can do these things. It's jus painfully obvious that Terran players have focused on improving TvZ that their TvP styles are stale. MC took advantage of this. TSL_Rain got to the finals on the strength of his all-ins.
I mean really, who do you think would win an MC vs ITR best of 7 right now? I'll be willing to bet that ITR won't play any differently than most Terrans have played against MC. Right now, Terrans are so used to playing against robo builds that they don't know how to respond to anything else.
The only odd man out style is MC's. Everyone else Played TvP standard on both sides. So saying that no terran knows how to play TvP is to general of a statment. A statement like no Terran can play against unorthodox Protoss play(MC's style) right now the routine run-of-the-mill Protoss play is Robo. So MC's style is the exception rather than the rule. All other terrans played TvP fine.
Also ITR abuses drops like crazy against Protoss its like a headache. I didn't see MC face drops like that outside of the Lost Temple game and MC already had the tech in place to deal with it because he was preparing to drop himself. I am not saying who would win either way but ITR style much more drop play and banshee play. I didn't see alot of that from many terrans this time in TvP. It was alot of Rax all in marine heavy, thor rush, or banshee rush. What happened to the ITR/Select style abusive MMM drops? I would just say terrans havent used that strategy as of late and I can see it making a comeback in the future. In TvP.
How does being able to play against one tech route that Toss have (robo) mean that Terrans understand TvP? I'm sure that if you look at games where toss players go stargate or Templar tech first, the winrates are really skewed in favor of Protoss.
I don't think MC would let a Terran get far enough in most games to safely get to drops.
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
As many many people have stated in this thread the norm for toss is Robo play many protoss will agree and many non-protoss players have said the same thing. That is what makes his style different yes he goes stargate but thats not instant win. Other Toss players went stargate also and it wasn't instant win its not like people just discovered stargates and voidrays.
Now you are moving into total theorycrafting territory. Your last paragragh is filled with many what-ifs and what nots. Which can go on forever and ever. If Terran does this MC does that. Nope sorry not gonna get me to join that one. I am stating that ITR uses alot of drop play that is fact as evidence of his TvP and TvZ. So who knows how MC will react (you certainly do not and neither do I) no one tried it against MC heavily outside of rain on the LT map.
On December 20 2010 09:39 wherebugsgo wrote:
On the maps that are safe enough for Terran to get stargate tech, it's usually safer to go Banshee against MC than drops, cause he has units or an expo but often not detection. If the Terran walls (which they often do when going stargate) then MC will go stargate into robo. The voidray will get there before the banshee is out. MC showed this everytime his opponent walled. On short rush distances, he just cheeses his opponent. I haven't seen ITR handle cheese before, and from his style I don't think he's strong against nonstandard play. His series vs Marineking showed that ITR is weak against early aggression, which is pretty much MC's hallmark.
The bold parts don't make sense to me they contradict.
Its safer to go banshee against MC than drops( because banshee's take longer and cost more?)
Terrans don't have to wall withstandard 3 rax into Medivac bio ball.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf0yy8_poltprime-vs-jangminchul-round-of-6_videogames There you go 1340 is about where it starts you may remember this game. Polt is basically playing the way many terrans use to play with drop play and stim abuse of MMM. Now you will probably counter with BUT MC didnt go stargate tech. Again that discussion will go on forever. Or you will say this is season 1 well know one did this to Mangchul in Season 3 so we don't know what would have happened.
Banshees come faster than drops because you can't generally drop with your first medivac. It involves taking all your units and putting them into a 100/100 unit that does nothing but heals and moves. On the other hand, banshees can attack. Heck, you don't even need to research cloak; the first banshee would be enough to force what you want. Few players get to starport tech though, because of MC's aggressiveness.
This is precisely why Terrans wait for stim and multiple medivacs if they're going to go for drop play. If they go with the first medivac they can get backstabbed or deflected and then countered. A lost banshee isn't as bad as losing a medivac and a bunch of units.
Also, medivacs don't force robo or cannons. The toss often will just add more stalkers and get HTs for feedback. With banshees, the forced robo/cannons delay tech that helps deal with banshees, such as stargate or HT tech. Drop play doesn't delay anything unless it does significant damage. Banshees, in a sense, do guaranteed damage for less risk.
So no, ITR would not fare better because he's fond of using drops. MC's current style is such that ITR would either not survive to tech, or he would be able to counter it even more easily than banshees because you don't need observers for medivacs.
And besides, who actually survived long enough to get drops? Rain did once. MC had HTs though; feedback=bane of medivacs.
Jinro got destroyed well before he would have gotten a starport even if he teched to it (and he didn't)
Marineking probably had the best chance, but he doesn't like starport tech anyway.
There is nothing that would suggest that ITR would survive MC's aggressiveness. ITR has shown that he is bad at holding off early aggression. Watch some of his replays on sc2rep. FD often takes advantage of this and all-ins. MK all-inned ITR early.
Here you go ITR TvP http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1217 complete with Early Pressure (4Gate Stalker while ITR is Fast Expoing) and he comes back because he holds the pressure off. This looks like it suggests he can handle aggressive play. I dont know you tell me.
and TvT early pressure can not be compared to PvT or ZvT or PvP or ZvZ early pressure they are all different and different dynamics of how you handle each.
Drops keep a protoss immobile and can give map control to terran. Protoss is probably most immobile race (unless terran adds thors or tanks and not many terrans do in TvP)
But we are way off topic here so I wont derail any longer. The point I am making is that you can not use GSL season 3 to say that no terran can TvP. You ignored what I said at the end of my last post. You say that because terran can play against robo tech that doesnt mean they understand TvP. Same token because Terrans Cant play against Stargate tech doesn't mean they dont. So using the GSL season 3 does nothing and still does nothing to validate your point that Top Terrans can't TvP and that is why MC won.
On December 20 2010 12:42 Node wrote: I think the key here is how much MC puts into avoiding the colossus. Remember the Day9 daily where he's all about delaying the colossus and focusing on other stuff? (#219 btw) It's very reminiscent of what MC has been doing all season long.
I've been watching Huk's stream a lot and the ease at which Terran usually stomps all over his colossus army with basic m&m&m is pretty ridiculous. (sorry Huk) I think the over-reliance by protoss on robo units, the colossus in particular is what has been holding them back. In game 1 vs. Rain, MC gets a robo and produces lots and lots of immortals, but never even throws up the support bay, and annihilates Rain's army which had quite a few marines (usually seen as strong against the immortal).
He annihilated that contain at his expo with heavy immortals because: he actually used his phoenix prior to lure out most of the marines way back behind the tanks. Then he engages, marines run back but too late, the zealots are already on top of the first bunkers/tank line. Uses phoenix to lift a bunch of tanks which kept the zealots alive to engage all the marines THEN you can see him micro his immortals to focus down tanks.
The kind of divide and conquer and sense of the battlefield is what makes him so good. Under normal situations, that push would never succeed. The tanks will rape the zealots (or severely damage), then the marines can clean them up and the immortals will be sitting ducks.
Similar situation with the Jinro game, void ray pulls most of the marines up the ramp to defend, then he rushes into the expo bunker line.
I think he is confident enough not to require early robo because his early pressure will rarely allow his opponents to tech up to counter his lack of obs. This allows an easy expo and then he can macro/tech up.
On December 20 2010 05:04 xiaofan wrote: imo it's more of a stylistic thing to choose ht over colossus. there's been plenty of colossus play this season in gsl, and also plenty of colossus play online. and as p u need a robo anyways if t goes banshees (ie game 3) so it's natural to follow up with immortal colossus from there.
what? how is the choice between colossus and HT stylistic??? the choice depends highly on the Ts composition and on the map + you need either a tech advantage early on or a economic advantage if you go for colossus or T can counter the shit out of you.
On December 20 2010 05:24 Zephirdd wrote: Notice how, when the game goes into macro style, he won't win. Yeah, he won game 4 vs MarineKing, but every other game that went into macro he lost. And every other game was won by him early.
Not saying 'hurr durr he haz terribel macro', but his strength cames from timing pushes. He raped terrans with timing attacks, and rarely ever went into a macro game. That's why people thought Jinro could win: Jinro's macro is incredible, unfortunely MC's timing attacks are insane.
Didn't he win a macro game against Rain on Lost Temple? I recall it went on for more than half and hour and he was on 3+ bases as was Rain. So I don't think we can say he won't win a game that goes into a macro style.
This uninformed. Everyone that watch the finals should remember that Lost temple game he built every tech structure on 1 base in the beginning. If that is not significant enough to remember I don't know what is. Then the game went into the long macro game.
So youre saying you agree that he won a macro game...? Elaborate please
Did you not watch that game? Was a long 40 minute game on LT. If thats not a macro game then I don't know what is.
Nope, didnt managed to get back in time to see the game. Still, my point was that peeeky said that MC won a game that was more than 30 minutes long with 3+ bases, showing that MC can play and win a macro game. Then Ozii said that that opinion was uninformed, but pretty much agreed that the game was a macro game. Pretty much I was just confused why Ozii said that peeeky was uninformed.
I'm happy to see he is at least making P believe that Colossi are not essential early/mid game. The problem with Colossi are twofold imo: Slow to produce and predictable. You can add in expensive and fragile but that's just what comes with the tremendous splash damage.
Removing the predictable, or at least reducing it is a good thing.
On December 20 2010 04:52 sihyunie wrote: Colossus: Robo (200/100, 65 sec), Robo Bay (200/200, 65 sec), Colossus (300/200, 75 sec), Thermal Lacne (200/200, 140 sec) = 900/700, 345 sec
Termal Lance can be started as soon as you have the robo bay, no need to wait for the Colossus to finish.
Robo 65 sec -> Bay 65 sec -> Lance 140 sec -> Colossus 75 sec.
if you use a Chronoboost on the Colossus and the Lance each, you will have a upgraded Colossus 245 seconds after tech-start. wich is a full 90 sec sooner then what you claimed.
that is that.
on topic:
MC's TvP is very strong indeed, but i disagree that it is due to delayed tech in favor off more gateway units. his PvT and probably also PvZ looks so sick powerfull because he abuses forcefields, wich is a utterly broken spell. that, in it self, is nothing new, you have to have Colossus, High Templars or Forcefields to be able to beat Zerg or Terran as a protoss player. what makes MC special is the fact that he does not miss with his forcefields, wich is also the reason that most protoss that will try to copy his style will fail.. they WILL miss forcefields and will in turn get lol-stomped by the enemy army.
It's not like most of his forcefields were done in the open. Almost all of them were very easy-to-place forcefields that were simply to keep scvs from repairing bunkers. He really wasn't doing a lot of "split his army in half in a wide-open battle" forcefields.
So no, I don't believe his expertly placed forcefields played as big of a role in the battles as you state. I also disagree in that I do believe a lot of his success was due to his aggressive use of gateway units and tech that came out much faster than the usual Colossus/HT tech that puts you at an army disadvantage for quite awhile until the units are actually contributing to your force.
1. In very early game, gateway units > barracks units (use zealot to the fullest) 2. gateway units > barracks units before the upgrades (especially stimpack and concussive shell upgrades)
Did he face any really early marauder with conc aggression? From what my protoss buddy tells me, concussive shells are super critical early game as they allow you to completely out-micro zealots. Early game, the toss either can have stalkers for damage or sentries for forcefields. Terrans should be able to exploit this tension with early marauders with conc.
I'm guessing that Stargate tech really makes getting too many Marauders problematic. He abused this well by attacking at a time where the money spent on conc shell and even Marauders themselves weakens the Terran army enough for his very early timing attacks with Void Rays to be effective.
On December 21 2010 00:06 Dash27 wrote: I'm happy to see he is at least making P believe that Colossi are not essential early/mid game. The problem with Colossi are twofold imo: Slow to produce and predictable. You can add in expensive and fragile but that's just what comes with the tremendous splash damage.
Removing the predictable, or at least reducing it is a good thing.
I think that's an excellent point. There are several strategies in BW that was considered a standard or very powerful once, but when players of that race start getting comfortable with it and don't deviate from it, other races will eventually figure out a way to beat it (FD in TvP, 3 hatch mutas in ZvT, Reaver/Carrier in PvT, etc etc.). Watching Korean BW games, the commentators mention this quite often as well, that a race, or even a specific player, need to deviate from the standard play or style because once you are predictable, you are easily beatable (it's not to say that having a specific style or play or standard is bad, just that you need to mix things up so that the opponents can't read you like an open book).
I know how these threads devolve into everyone basically reiterating the same thing. I'll do it anyways. I think his main strength is his understanding of the matchup like others have mentioned... but what does that really mean? To me it means he knows exactly when he can safely transition. He stays on gateway units exactly the right amount of time while most of us either jump straight into robo or take way too long to get to it. He found the sweet spot and gets alot of mileage out of whatever hes using. I attribute most of this to game sense. Most protoss players know that your unit ratios are very important. Too many or too few sentries for the situation = loss, too many stalkers can = loss. His unit mixes are really good.
I dunno I compare it to someone who is a good dota or HoN player. They know exactly what their unit can do as well as their opponents... except in this case multiple units.