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Hey , recently there has been a lot of talk about vasters who make so much more money than the progamers who create the content( Husky, HD etc) So that got me wondering whether or not the casters should be charged for what they get for free. Think about it : in any other sport, professional teams get a big percentage of the income created by the content they create. So why should this not be the case in SC2 as well? Idra, for example doesnt like Husky very mutch and yet the caster got over 200k views recently for content Idra created. Now an other aspect is , of course , that a lot of people watch games because a certain caster commentates them , so you might argue that the casters become more important than the players, but I at least think that they could not exist without each other. Games without casters are boring and casters without games .. well that wouldnt really work would it? Those are just a few points that i thought of the top of my head and i would be interested what all of you think about this subject.
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If the replay is released to the public, then the player can't really expect money in return for it. If they hoard them expecting money, the casters will just go to someone else for reps.
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Perhaps on paper this seems like a valid idea, but in reality all this would do would put a halt to an aspect of eSports, which is never a good thing.
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Oh this will end well.
A fairly massive thing you've failed to take into consideration is that without casters, you literally have no professional eSports. Sponsors will not pay a cent for something that isn't going to get publicised. It's not just 'oh the games would be boring without casters', it is the 'oh, nobody is getting paid because the sponsors can't get their brand out there because we don't have any prominent casters'.
There are 4 vital elements to eSports and without even one of those, eSports doesn't work. Looks something like this.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors
Take one of those out of the equation and you have no professional eSports. Probably best not to fuck with an element of it on that basis.
Consider this. In eSports, a 'caster' such as say, Husky, is not merely a commentator, he is an entirely television network in and of himself. If you're talking about 'buying the rights' to a series or tournament, then this already happens, though it's usually through a beneficial arrangement to all 4 elements of that equation. The caster uses his prominence and audience to bargain with the sponsors, to secure money for the players. He does not take money from the prizepool for himself (unless he is a complete dick and I really hope this doesn't happen), he is compensated via the ad revenue that his channel generates (and could easily generate from something that isn't Starcraft if need be). The players get paid, the sponsors get their brand recognition, the caster is compensated and the viewers get their entertainment without paying a dime.
I couldn't possibly not be biased on this subject, but I would like to think people wouldn't want to mess with that system, lest it fall apart and benefit no-one at all.
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Check how ESL (larger events), MLG, GOM and so on does it. They cast it themselves so they get the income themselves and the costs themselves.
Shouldn't also the casters be paid somehow? Once the sum reaches a certain point you can start talking about giving back though.
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Casters make the game entertaining and not everybody can do that. You don't have to look far on youtube to find shitty casters that have no business trying to cast games. People like Day9, Tasteless, and Husky deserve their salaries.
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If the casters can get a hold of the replay, generally you can too. People watch the videos with the casting/commentating because of the caster or because they're too lazy to get the game themselves. It'd be dumb if everyone had to pay for the replay so why would someone who takes it off a site and makes a youtube video of themselves talking about it have to pay too?
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Quality will have longevity.
Also, there are so few casters and progamers making money there's no reason to make an annoying issue of it.
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On January 20 2011 06:09 Hasire wrote: If the replay is released to the public, then the player can't really expect money in return for it. If they hoard them expecting money, the casters will just go to someone else for reps.
How does one hoard replays when your opponent in the game has the exact same replay?
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Hoarding replays might be an interesting idea. Selling each download of a replay for a small sum. Since both players would get this money both would keep it to the site selling them or get no income from this.
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On January 20 2011 06:09 Hasire wrote: If the replay is released to the public, then the player can't really expect money in return for it. If they hoard them expecting money, the casters will just go to someone else for reps.
but thats the thing, more wpeople will want to watch the better player reps like Idras instead of some lower lesser known player
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As Hasire said, if they release the game to the public they can't expect casters to pay them money. Nothing is stopped top level gamers from keeping their replays and selling them to the casters.
If they really think their replays are that good, then they can do that. And if they're right, the casters will be willing to pay for them. But if they're wrong and it turns out that people don't really care much about seeing games of (as an example) idra, and are fine with just seeing games with ret instead, then casters won't pay for games and idra loses some of his popularity since less people get exposure to his games, which arguably reduces a player or a team's ability to get sponsors.
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YouTube partnership doesn't really give that much money, contrary to popular belief. I'd be surprised if HD and Husky were breaking $20k/year. Compare that with IdrA's salary.
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On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote: Oh this will end well.
Well what could possibly go wrong ? ^.^
On January 20 2011 06:12 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:09 Hasire wrote: If the replay is released to the public, then the player can't really expect money in return for it. If they hoard them expecting money, the casters will just go to someone else for reps. How does one hoard replays when your opponent in the game has the exact same replay?
Well if you dont release a replay and some caster makes a few hundres (i obviously dont know the exact numbers ) bucks of it , is that really fair ?
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I doubt blizzard would let you charge for replays.
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Typically you're never going to find a rep of a pro player though unless they release it, because they're playing on a Smurf.
Just by playing on "EGIdra" on ladder, Idra has to have an expectation of the replay being saved and someone turning a profit off it. If a player cares so much as to not want this to happen, stay on a smurf and customs with people you trust not to share the reps.
Players and casters only really care about the big-name reps, and not the 3500 player that only ladders/players in smaller tournies.
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Casters already do alot for many of these players, HD, Husky, Day9 etc have helped promote many of these players who in turn get invites to more tournaments and acheive "efame".
Granted not all of them enjoy being pestered constantly but i bet more of them acutally enjoy being known for playing a video game.
The popular casters are one of the primary reasons why they are so famous at least in the SC community.
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As far as i know the replays are 100% Blizzard property. If Blizzard is ok with casters making money displaying their product then all is good.
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I like the Korean commentators best, even though I don't understand 99% of what they're saying. Klazart is the only English commentator who compared to the intensity, but he is retired :-(
And OP, your idea sounds in tandem with Blizzard trying to charge OGN/MBC for broadcasting rights lol, but let's leave that subject to the threads dedicated to it ;-)
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Very interesting point, however I think this attitude of intellectual property is detrimental to the game in the long run.
Players play to win tournaments, and replays are almost a meaningful cast-off of this training.
Replays where players dont reveal any training tactics but end up in some "weird epic fun" game have no value and meaning to them.
However, these replays have meaning to us fans, and they generate interest in both the game and in the players (and their sponsors).
So consider replays a useless by-product of players aiming to win tournaments and these games that everyone gets to enjoy simply serve to promote the players interests to become rich gamers, and the game's interests to get more players/fans.
_
I personally would rather see casters do casts for love of the game rather than financial profit myself, but if the do more 'good' than 'bad' in bringing fans to the game then I guess I am happy for them to make some cash on the side.
I personally dont watch these people's replays, because I dont consider they have the right ethos and ethics, but I wont deny the power of youtube VODs in terms of exciting the public and garnering SC2 interest.
I mean I only picked protoss because of White-ra's gosu plays in beta ^^
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I don't think this will become an issue. Incontrol said it best "why are you comparing eSports to other sports". Well not in those words exactly, but the premise is that eSports is different. A general eSports infastracture doesn't really exist yet, well maybe not in the west, at least not at the level of regular sports. Unless blizzard steps in, theres nothing players can do about this issue legally i think.
Also there is free reign on casting right now as far as making your own content right now. Which is why HD and husky was so smart in putting out as much content as they could during beta when no one else was.
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Your a idiot, delete this post.
User was warned for this post
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On January 20 2011 06:07 Erandorr wrote: Hey , recently there has been a lot of talk about vasters who make so much more money than the progamers who create the content( Husky, HD etc) So that got me wondering whether or not the casters should be charged for what they get for free. Think about it : in any other sport, professional teams get a big percentage of the income created by the content they create. So why should this not be the case in SC2 as well? Idra, for example doesnt like Husky very mutch and yet the caster got over 200k views recently for content Idra created. Now an other aspect is , of course , that a lot of people watch games because a certain caster commentates them , so you might argue that the casters become more important than the players, but I at least think that they could not exist without each other. Games without casters are boring and casters without games .. well that wouldnt really work would it? Those are just a few points that i thought of the top of my head and i would be interested what all of you think about this subject.
The NFL and other said organizations also own all creative derivatives of their property. As far as I'm aware, pro gamers don't own their replays. If anything, blizzard can charge if they want to and use those funds to give money to the growth of sc2, but they don't because they want the community to grow.
In the NFL, the players union makes deals with the league for certain broadcasting profits and etc, so it ends up in their salary. This doesn't exist in esports and never will.
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They need to start releasing them with a read-only copyright, as in the general public can watch the replay, but it can't be broadcast/redestributed etc.
Having said that, I think this community needs to grow and grow and money greedy Husky is not going to shell out money for a pro replay when he will always be able to find some masters league one to cast, and having no more pro replays is just going to kill the growth of casting...
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On January 20 2011 06:14 CrazyCow wrote: YouTube partnership doesn't really give that much money, contrary to popular belief. I'd be surprised if HD and Husky were breaking $20k/year. Compare that with IdrA's salary.
Out of interest, what kind of finances are pro-gamers on?
I mean - a regular wage? Or just free flights/board at tournaments and they get to keep the winnings?
I realise it is rather gauche, but I would love to know what kind of money a standard 'EG/Liquid/Mouz' member was getting from the team.
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hd and husky only make so much money because of youtube partnership.
husky and hd bring in a million views every few days. They do this consistently. If they keep this up for a whole year, that'll be like 100,000 in their pocket.
you're making 20,000 a year if you're one of those lower ranked partners, but husky is now like #13. or something ridiculous. Actually that doesn't translates to 6 figures. That's closer to the 80,000 range. still a decent amount.
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I never watch HD or Huskys stuff simply because I don't like the way they operate, I know partners can put up any length videos they want but they still part some in like 8-9 minute sections just so i have to click more links and make them more money. It's not hard to cast a replay and offer sub par analysis of a game it's not like they are offering any valuable information to the play or anything they just got in at the right time.
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On January 20 2011 06:26 jamesmax wrote: I never watch HD or Huskys stuff simply because I don't like the way they operate, I know partners can put up any length videos they want but they still part some in like 8-9 minute sections just so i have to click more links and make them more money. It's not hard to cast a replay and offer sub par analysis of a game it's not like they are offering any valuable information to the play or anything they just got in at the right time. Husky doesn't do this anymore and when he did it had technical reasons and not financial.
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On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors
Your 4 vital things are definitely vital... BUT the point the OP is brining up is that when you think about the amount of money a player makes per casted game compared to the amount a caster gets paid for that same casted game is not very fair. Husky making $20,000 for casting a random ladder game of Idra's, idra makes $0 for that same game. Fair? No.
Like you say casters can't exist without players, but casters thrive while players struggle to survive.
If I want to make a TV show about how awesome Team X is against Team Y at football, I'd have to pay both of those teams to get them to play on my show.
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Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount.
Your 4 vital things are definitely vital... BUT the point the OP is brining up is that when you think about the amount of money a player makes per casted game compared to the amount a caster gets paid for that same casted game is not very fair. Husky making $20,000 for casting a random ladder game of Idra's, idra makes $0 for that same game. Fair? No.
Like you say casters can't exist without players, but casters thrive while players struggle to survive.
If I want to make a TV show about how awesome Team X is against Team Y at football, I'd have to pay both of those teams to get them to play on my show.
And a professional footballer makes X times that of a nurse. The world isn't fair, money is not rewarded based on how hard you work, but on how much money you're able to bring in for the person paying you. That's capitalism and it isn't going to change.
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On January 20 2011 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount.
You're no HD or Husky, so you wouldn't know how much somebody who generates as many views as they do makes.
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On January 20 2011 06:31 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount. You're no HD or Husky, so you wouldn't know how much somebody who generates as many views as they do makes.
No you're right.
I only have 216,000 subscribers and produce the most viewed World of Warcraft videos on the entirity of Youtube on a daily basis. Since WoW is such a tiny, unpopular game, I'm clearly living on 2 dollars a week and should be out picking rice.
More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn.
It is unwise to try and discuss things you know nothing about.
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no this makes very little sense, do news reporters have to pay for the stories they run? it's a media forum
also blizzard would probably sue for believing that those replays are your property
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment.
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Just out of curiosity, how do you know how much the casters make? I've never seen any official figures. If the best casters, such as Day9(who also delivers a lot of other content), make more than some players; well then I'm totally fine with that. These people do a lot more for the community, while a player plays for himself.
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On January 20 2011 06:22 asianinvasian wrote: I don't think this will become an issue. Incontrol said it best "why are you comparing eSports to other sports". Well not in those words exactly, but the premise is that eSports is different. A general eSports infastracture doesn't really exist yet, well maybe not in the west, at least not at the level of regular sports. Unless blizzard steps in, theres nothing players can do about this issue legally i think.
If a football game between Man Utd and Real Madrid is being "casted" and recorded by X tv station, that video recording is the property of said TV station. Has nothing to do with the teams/players in question.
All replays,custom maps, etc are Blizzards. They are the only ones that can sell them. If they want to give the "creators" a piece of the cake, that is a different thing, ala the announced market place.
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On January 20 2011 06:34 nkr wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do you know how much the casters make? I've never seen any official figures. If the best casters, such as Day9(who also delivers a lot of other content), make more than some players; well then I'm totally fine with that. These people do a lot more for the community, while a player plays for himself.
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/meet-the-youtube-stars-making-100000-plus-per-year-535349.html?tickers=goog,^ixic,qqqq
I dont know how much exactly casters make, but I do know top partners make a lot. Using this list, and the fact husky is #13 this month, you can ball park it.
day9's dailies would make serious bank if it was on youtube and updated regularly I believe.
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On January 20 2011 06:33 AJ- wrote: no this makes very little sense, do news reporters have to pay for the stories they run? it's a media forum
also blizzard would probably sue for believing that those replays are your property
News Reporters are reporting things that are public knowledge, sports casters cast the entirety of a game and get paid by the company hosting the event (Who is also the same people paying the players). Sports casters don't get paid by some 3rd party to go to a game and cast it, as that would not be allowed by the people running the event.
The only sporting events that allow 3rd party casters are things like the World Cup, and I'm sure that media outlets have to pay for the right to cast those games, because they know that they will make a return on ads displayed during the game.
And to TB, if you don't make much it's not like we're saying you should pay Idra $20,000 per game of his you cast, but what if it was 5%?? If you are only making $10 a video, then he'd only get 5% of that........... you can't afford paying him 5% of $10?!?! Also you've had 69,254,320 total views since 2006, HD has had over 100,000,000 since 2009...
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On January 20 2011 06:33 TotalBiscuit wrote: More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn.
You consider yourself an employee of Google Adsense?
User was warned for this post
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The sad fact is while Husky and HD may or may not be horrible at casting and doing shady tactics like separating videos arbitrarily, the fact that they exist helps progamers in the long term because it shows there's a significant viewership which not only attracts sponsors in the short term but creates a metric that can be used in any pitches for TV or more mainstream coverage. I mean if Fred: The Movie has taught us anything it's that you can be the most untalented hack in the world and get monumental exposure as a result of being a youtube celebrity, not necessarily because of YouTube viewers but because what that can represent to investors.
Also unless anyone has any actual numbers with regards to youtube partnership it's only going to end in tears if people try to guess. Even if Husky can live off it, he's not got a lot of expenses so it doesn't really prove a whole lot.
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And to TB, if you don't make much it's not like we're saying you should pay Idra $20,000 per game of his you cast, but what if it was 5%?? If you are only making $10 a video, then he'd only get 5% of that........... you can't afford paying him 5% of $10?!?!
He may not pay the individual players, but he does give back to the scene.
This is from the SCReddit tourney:
TotalBiscuit has generously donated an extra $200 to the winner and $100 to second place! Brings first place to $1,200 + $600 to charity and second place to $600!
Link is here
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question for me is, how much DOES HD and husky make?
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The problem with this topic is that none of you can decide whether the exposure is worth not getting paid. It's between casters and players and nobody else.
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Madden shouldn't have to pay Brett Favre, it's Fox that pays the NFL. So if players want compensation they have to demand payment for their replays. If the casters just go to other players then some players could band together in a union (a.k.a. league) or just the established teams could make policies regarding their players' replays (and probably start taking cuts out of whatever money supposedly exists).
Good luck selling replays though; I'm sure Kotick will find a way to demand so much money it couldn't possibly be profitable or else just grind you into dust.
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On January 20 2011 06:14 CrazyCow wrote: YouTube partnership doesn't really give that much money, contrary to popular belief. I'd be surprised if HD and Husky were breaking $20k/year. Compare that with IdrA's salary.
IdrA's 'salary' (that is money that goes directly to his bank account) from EG is probably smaller than you think. Being on the team has a lot of other fantastic benefits, like travel expenses being covered and his apartment in Korea, but I don't think he's probably pocketing any more than $1,000 a month (I heard some of the offers that Complexity offered players/teams when they were shopping around and I tried to guestimate what EG might have been able to offer IdrA, a toptoptoptop end player).
I believe in another thread it was mentioned that you get 1/3rd of a cent per ad view with a youtube partnership.
I pulled up a random video of Husky'sthat was posted a week ago. It had 335,702 views.
Let's round that down to 300,000 just to make it easier. If they show an ad. every time someone loads up that video, Husky should have made 100,000 cents off that. That's $1,000.
That still feels a little high to me; let's say they (youtube) only show an advertisement half the time a video loads (I have no idea the frequency they show ads). That's still $500 a video. He wants to make 5 or 6 a week, if I remember correctly. That's $2,500 - $3,000 weekly. That's $10,000 - $12,000 a month. That's $120,000 - $144,00 a year.
That's pretty close to what I've heard Husky makes, so let's go with that. Even if you took out "living and travel" expenses from his salary to try and compare the money he makes compared to a professional player (for those not following, you'd remove these because in SOME cases teams will pay travel and living expenses) Husky is still pocketing significantly more loot than your favorite pros. Even SirScoots remarked on yesterdays LO3 that these guys were making more than people like IdrA, and he's IdrA's manager so I figure he'd know how he's compensated.
I'm not trying to remark either way whether I think the system is right or wrong, I just wanted to point out to you that if I've been looking at the math right/taking it account everything I should be, some of the more popular youtube casters should be making significantly more than most pros (all pros?)
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On January 20 2011 06:44 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Madden shouldn't have to pay Brett Favre, it's Fox that pays the NFL. So if players want compensation they have to demand payment for their replays.
Of course Madden doesn't pay Brett Favre, he works for a company that pays Brett Favre.
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On January 20 2011 06:33 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:31 aike wrote:On January 20 2011 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount. You're no HD or Husky, so you wouldn't know how much somebody who generates as many views as they do makes. No you're right. I only have 216,000 subscribers and produce the most viewed World of Warcraft videos on the entirity of Youtube on a daily basis. Since WoW is such a tiny, unpopular game, I'm clearly living on 2 dollars a week and should be out picking rice. More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn. It is unwise to try and discuss things you know nothing about.
haha tb youre great. seriously
there really shouldnt be so much freakin hate on the youtube casters. they have brought loads of people to the game, they deserve thanks. i wouldnt have even found team liquid or been as into the game as i am without husky or hd, so yes i am very thankful. i dont really watch either of them anymore, but thats not because i think they are terrible people for taking the free content on the internet and making it more entertaining by casting it, and then providing it to us again for free. no they should not have to pay people to cast their replays. that would be ridiculous
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On January 20 2011 06:39 CrazyCow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 TotalBiscuit wrote: More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn.
You consider yourself an employee of Google Adsense? User was warned for this post
I consider myself an employee of The Gamestation, just as HD, Husky and many others are.
Once again, you should not discuss things you don't have the necessary knowledge to. It is not helpful to the discuss, quite the opposite in fact. You do not know how it operates at all, so stick to what you do know please.
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On January 20 2011 06:11 Jacuzzi wrote: Casters make the game entertaining and not everybody can do that. You don't have to look far on youtube to find shitty casters that have no business trying to cast games. People like Day9, Tasteless, and Husky deserve their salaries. Where is TB?!?!?
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On January 20 2011 06:39 CrazyCow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 TotalBiscuit wrote: More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn.
You consider yourself an employee of Google Adsense? User was warned for this post
What I mean by this is HD, Husky, and TotalBiscuit all make their money from the ads on their videos, which are from Google Adsense. To say that he knows how much they make is just silly; it's not like they're employees. Each partner's income per view will be different (and fairly low, Adsense isn't the best at monetization.)
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i think for now with it being so early its perfectly fine for casters to use stuff without paying.
However, in order for starcraft to grow, money needs to be going into the organization running it. If in the near future, gom or whatever organization is running starcraft is in need of money, it would be totally understandable for them to ask commentators to pay them for permission to use their VoDS.
This is probably what happened with NBA, NFL, MLB, when they were first started to get televised.
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On January 20 2011 06:45 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:44 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Madden shouldn't have to pay Brett Favre, it's Fox that pays the NFL. So if players want compensation they have to demand payment for their replays. Of course Madden doesn't pay Brett Favre, he works for a company that pays Brett Favre. that came out stupid because I didn't finish the thought and had to edit it afterwards.
Still though, I'm not sure what your counterpoint is because progamers usually work for someone who pays them, too.
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On January 20 2011 06:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:26 jamesmax wrote: I never watch HD or Huskys stuff simply because I don't like the way they operate, I know partners can put up any length videos they want but they still part some in like 8-9 minute sections just so i have to click more links and make them more money. It's not hard to cast a replay and offer sub par analysis of a game it's not like they are offering any valuable information to the play or anything they just got in at the right time. Husky doesn't do this anymore and when he did it had technical reasons and not financial.
Thank you for defending husky in this, however I actually have a bone ot pick with people who complain about it in the first place.
So what if he was spliting the vids for money? You act like he's taking the money from you. Yes a split video can lower the overall experiance of viewing (slightly) but if he can make 2x the income doing so why would you blame him? In fact aa fan a fan of his work, I ecourage him to do so... the more he can make at this maybe the more effort hell put in, and the more he can add to the sc2 community. It's mind blowing the hate tossed around because someone might dare to want to make money, even when that's simply not their goal.
Back to the op, I have to admit that I agree that I feel players desirve a cut, but there isn't the infastructure for it. And really there is a glut of intereting replays, supply demand isn't in the players favor. However it seems that blizzard is working on a replay store of somekind, wonder what is going to happen with that?
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On January 20 2011 06:47 CrazyCow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:39 CrazyCow wrote:On January 20 2011 06:33 TotalBiscuit wrote: More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn.
You consider yourself an employee of Google Adsense? User was warned for this post What I mean by this is HD, Husky, and TotalBiscuit all make their money from the ads on their videos, which are from Google Adsense. To say that he knows how much they make is just silly; it's not like they're employees. Each partner's income per view will be different (and fairly low, Adsense isn't the best at monetization.)
No really, you definitely have no idea how this works. You absolutely should stop talking now since you are spreading misinformation. As much as I would love to share with you all the gory details, we are NDAed on various aspects of our jobs and don't particularly like to risk it because some random guy on the internet thinks they know more than they actually do.
And to TB, if you don't make much it's not like we're saying you should pay Idra $20,000 per game of his you cast, but what if it was 5%?? If you are only making $10 a video, then he'd only get 5% of that........... you can't afford paying him 5% of $10?!?! Also you've had 69,254,320 total views since 2006, HD has had over 100,000,000 since 2009...
And about 68 million of those were in the last 6 months, what's your point? 'Oh sorry, you're only this massive on Youtube, not as massive as that other even more massive thing, so you don't know anything at all about it'.
Nevermind that I know for a fact how much they make.
Jesus christ, since when did it become ok to just completely ignore what someone with absolute knowledge and authority on the subject says just because they can't reveal all the gory details. Would you ignore what a pro-gamer said about game balance? Then why would you ignore what a professional (it's my job, so by definition, professional) Youtube caster says about how Youtube actually works?
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To be honest, I want to know what is the best way to help support the scene ala what are the best places to watch esports. A caster who is able to "make" a living being a caster is able to do more things for the scene than someone burning themselves out trying to keep a full-time job and promoting esports.
Look at the juggling most casters have to do to get by, I love their dedication to making something they love get the attention it deserves.
Cheers!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment.
Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all?
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On January 20 2011 06:46 TotalBiscuit wrote: so stick to what you do know please.
If this is the case why don't you 'Stick to what you know' and go back to WoW and stay out of the Starcraft area of things. No? Then don't tell people what they should and shouldn't do.
User was temp banned for this post.
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By OP's logic the casters should also pay blizzard, the guy who invented the internet, the progamer's mothers and so on.
Nobody is stopping the players (or anyone for that matter) to also cast their or other's replays and generate their own money through this.
I think most people are jealous because they think they could do it themselves, but it's tough to get such a following and so many hits on youtube (unless you are a super hot chick doing a dumb vlog of course).
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On January 20 2011 06:50 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:46 TotalBiscuit wrote: so stick to what you do know please. If this is the case why don't you 'Stick to what you know' and go back to WoW and stay out of the Starcraft area of things. No? Then don't tell people what they should and shouldn't do.
That's very classy of you.
When you contribute to the community in any significant fashion beyond slagging people off over the internet, someone might care about what you have to say on the matter.
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On January 20 2011 06:50 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:46 TotalBiscuit wrote: so stick to what you do know please. If this is the case why don't you 'Stick to what you know' and go back to WoW and stay out of the Starcraft area of things. No? Then don't tell people what they should and shouldn't do.
he knows how to entertain, and he entertains. theres a difference between someone doing something for good entertainment and someone completely lying about stuff because they think that they know how it works
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
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On January 20 2011 06:48 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:45 aike wrote:On January 20 2011 06:44 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Madden shouldn't have to pay Brett Favre, it's Fox that pays the NFL. So if players want compensation they have to demand payment for their replays. Of course Madden doesn't pay Brett Favre, he works for a company that pays Brett Favre. that came out stupid because I didn't finish the thought and had to edit it afterwards. Still though, I'm not sure what your counterpoint is because progamers usually work for someone who pays them, too.
Yes progamers get paid by their sponsor but what I mean is that Casters work for a company (Either themselves or some other organization) so John Madden's employer (Fox) pays the NFL for the right to broadcast the games.
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On January 20 2011 06:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The problem with this topic is that none of you can decide whether the exposure is worth not getting paid. It's between casters and players and nobody else.
Well actually what i was getting at is that this is a great community and it might be fair for the players to get some money for the content they create. I was not talking at all about the legal aspect , more the moral. If husky is not in it for the money alone and lives comfortable of his casts, why not share some of it with those pros that are not as fortunate as he is? Lets be honest if i played one awesome game and thats casted by husky , i might get 5 minutes of fame . but players get invited to events by getting results in the online tournaments, and then they will get picked up by a team. Would you consider signing me by some random games that have been casted? Sure it helps but it doesnt change that much or am I mistaken?
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I don't see how this even matters. The player gets exposure, the caster gets a little change for it. People rally behind casters these days and players looking to make a name for themselves should utilize this. It's like free advertisement for the player. I could however see partnerships in the future between casters and top players sharing profit but not right now.
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On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world.
"It's much easier to hate, than to create"
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Problem is the caster's getting money, everything should be on a level playing field then it would be fair to both parties. When I read the OP it pissed me off that Husky is getting paid for his shitty commentaries, something about that guy that 'grinds my gears'.
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On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all?
This is why we love you incontrol XD
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On January 20 2011 06:52 Donttazemebro wrote: By OP's logic the casters should also pay blizzard, the guy who invented the internet, the progamer's mothers and so on.
Nobody is stopping the players (or anyone for that matter) to also cast their or other's replays and generate their own money through this.
I think most people are jealous because they think they could do it themselves, but it's tough to get such a following and so many hits on youtube (unless you are a super hot chick doing a dumb vlog of course).
lol but this already does happen. Did the casters not buy SC2? Do the casters not pay their ISPs? Did the casters not buy their PCs and software?
They are already paying for the right to cast games, they just are paying the person who actually played the game. Big tournies pay for players to have their games casted, most of the time it just happens to be payment in the form of offering the chance to win big.
It would not be legal of me to go film somebody doing something without their consent and then sell it online and not give them any of the profit.
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My god I swear sometimes you guys want to cut off your nose to spite your face. There is a certain element of this community that is toxic to eSports in general, they'd rather fight amongst themselves and lay hate on other people than lift a finger to grow the scene in any way.
Take a long hard look at yourselves and think, just how much do you really care about helping eSports succeed?
Enough of this thread, it's depressing as hell.
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On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all?
LOL! Can't stop laughing! Fantastic post that wins this thread.
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On January 20 2011 06:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world. "It's much easier to hate, than to create"
well, i came into this thread with a pretty neutral mindset and based on all of your posts i know think you are a TotalDick lolololololl
but i didnt watch your videos anyway so i guess you didnt lose anything
cheerz
User was temp banned for this post.
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I just watched my first ever Azeroth Daily!
This is basically a perfect example of what I was thinking.
Consider the effort that went into that video cast, or a day[9] daily - there is planning and a clear narrative to convey a message or thought process. There is production quality and skilled production values.
Now compare it to a HD 20 minute cast of a replay he downloaded off the internet 5 minutes beforehand (assuming he doesnt pre-watch it to look smart).
Who deserves the richer financial reward?
That is the basis of many people's arguments I feel. I understand that the society we live in is not fair, but in terms of who 'deserves' more out of exploiting this computer game - I would say the players and casters who provide great content over those who dont.
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On January 20 2011 06:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world. "It's much easier to hate, than to create"
haha so so wrong. I love what I do for a living, and I love that I know I'll be able to do it for the rest of my life, which is more than you can say. Don't talk about what you don't know. You don't know our lives therefore, you aren't allowed to talk about them.
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On January 20 2011 06:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world. "It's much easier to hate, than to create"
TotalBiscuit, I respect you as a caster, but please, everytime you post here you always sound cocky, full of yourself and ultra-defensive, could you stop doing that?
Honnestly, I don't understand why casters are getting paid for something no-one has been paid before. But well, if they can make money out of this, good for them.
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On January 20 2011 06:48 TotalBiscuit wrote: No really, you definitely have no idea how this works. You absolutely should stop talking now since you are spreading misinformation. As much as I would love to share with you all the gory details, we are NDAed on various aspects of our jobs and don't particularly like to risk it because some random guy on the internet thinks they know more than they actually do.
No really, I am an Internet marketer who knows exactly how YouTube marketing works. I don't do the creating, I do the business behind it, which I am now sure you're unfamiliar with. I'm done arguing for now, but going back to the topic, my opinion is that casters are not at all overpaid and are paid less than the progamers. Take it or leave it.
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8716 Posts
On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
While they do work hard, becoming a top caster has been more on a "first come first served" basis than becoming a top player. Once "good enough" casters got exposure, they became the top casters, and that's that. If they keep working to produce content, they keep their spots. If there are better casters out there that'd do better shows and/or work for less money, it's much less likely for us to ever discover them at this point. It's hard to break into the scene.
Players, on the other hand, deserve all the respect in the world!
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On January 20 2011 06:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world. "It's much easier to hate, than to create"
I think thats fair enough, but its kind of disgusting to me that the actual players recieve only a tuppence of what the video content creators do.
Plus everything Tyler said above me basically breeds hate.
Curse you youtube partners!
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I'll just make a clear post to address this and why I believe many of you are wrong. Right now there is a disparity between what casters and players are making. That's clear as day as the "stars" of the game should be the ones making the most. Secondly, esports, sc2, yadda yadda is all at an infant stage where you need money to support things and keep it goin. While some casters have actual insight, most are very average, you can always get another John Madden who says blatantly obvious things in a near comical way.
If players don't end up being compensated well enough you get people who eventually say well that was fun, but I need to move on with "real life" now and grow up because making even $10,000 a year is not enough. Casters can come and go and things will largely remain the same because as much as one would argue they give exposure to the "sport" the players provide the true appeal. Think of it like this: would you watch a tournament knowing the players were no better than yourself? Watch sports on tv or the radio and the announcers are very pleasant yet at the same time go to a live game, guess what, people enjoy it for what they see, not about what they're told by some babbling guy behind a mic. While people may disagree with my use of the analogous use of sports in reference to e-sports, it boils down to people wanna see the games ultimately. The commentary is a plus, but not the main draw.
Frankly, things are in a weird situation. Days of the past you'd have some players making a lot, most making very little. Casters nowadays can make a buck no matter what direction this game goes which is concerning. When it comes to money in sc2, this isn't broodwar where even the pro teams can dish out a relatively small chunk of money to pay for kids, not adults, to play all day and get good. People that have been with gaming or even the bw community for a long while are getting older, they either have to make enough or they'll move on to devote their time to other sources of income. If this became as big as say NFL proportions, if you have an announcer getting paid as much as top players, people would say WTF. Lot lot easier to find someone who can talk about what they can see compared to what the players can do. That's reality and compensation needs to be more appropriately considered going forward even right now its not completely in control due to things like youtube and the sort. There's a reason why in every sport players make the most, because without them you don't have the great games they produce.
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I think many of you look at this the wrong way. People can make money right about anything of the web - and that's the beauty of it. If we were to go back some years many of us would shake our heads on the fact that you could make money on YouTube for casting a StarCraft game.
The simple thing is that people like Husky, HD, Day9, Artosis, TotalBiscuit make money - money that were not invested in eSport before. This will spill over to other parts of eSports as well so the gamers etc.
I love it when more people can make money out of eSports - and we should all should be happy for this. It is not a fixed size cake of money that has to be divided - the cake is constantly growing - a growing cake that will bring in more money for everybody.
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On January 20 2011 06:59 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world. "It's much easier to hate, than to create" haha so so wrong. I love what I do for a living, and I love that I know I'll be able to do it for the rest of my life, which is more than you can say. Don't talk about what you don't know. You don't know our lives therefore, you aren't allowed to talk about them.
I think I like this guy.
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Most streaming website offer .02 (or .002, Not too sure.) cents per commercial/per viewer. I wouldn't doubt that the ads off his youtube videos were significantly lower than that.
I doubt any of them make as much as you think, If they do; Good for them. I may not like their style of casting, content, etc but It's nice to see people that are putting Starcraft related content out there for people to see.
The only thing I would like is to have more pay for the pros so people feel it is a solid option to pursue and put the time in to be an amazing player, and get paid well for it.
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My opinion on the matter (and it could just be me here) is that casters are going to make more because often times they are the reason I tune in. If I go to the stream page here and see Day9 or DJwheat live for a tournament, i am A BAJILLION times more likely to watch that tournament than the one being casted by BigT (just picked a random caster, nothing against the guy) even if BigT is casting idra vs whitera and Day9/Djwheat is casting Destiny vs some random no name in round 1 of a tournament.
For me I am drawn by the casters not the players of tournament..so yea i agree they should make more money because they are the people gaining viewers like me.
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On January 20 2011 06:15 Erandorr wrote:Well what could possibly go wrong ? ^.^
Whops .
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On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? And don't forget SC2 by itself costs FIVE dozens of dollars.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 20 2011 07:02 Alizee- wrote: I'll just make a clear post to address this and why I believe many of you are wrong. Right now there is a disparity between what casters and players are making. That's clear as day as the "stars" of the game should be the ones making the most. Secondly, esports, sc2, yadda yadda is all at an infant stage where you need money to support things and keep it goin. While some casters have actual insight, most are very average, you can always get another John Madden who says blatantly obvious things in a near comical way.
If players don't end up being compensated well enough you get people who eventually say well that was fun, but I need to move on with "real life" now and grow up because making even $10,000 a year is not enough. Casters can come and go and things will largely remain the same because as much as one would argue they give exposure to the "sport" the players provide the true appeal. Think of it like this: would you watch a tournament knowing the players were no better than yourself? Watch sports on tv or the radio and the announcers are very pleasant yet at the same time go to a live game, guess what, people enjoy it for what they see, not about what they're told by some babbling guy behind a mic. While people may disagree with my use of the analogous use of sports in reference to e-sports, it boils down to people wanna see the games ultimately. The commentary is a plus, but not the main draw.
Frankly, things are in a weird situation. Days of the past you'd have some players making a lot, most making very little. Casters nowadays can make a buck no matter what direction this game goes which is concerning. When it comes to money in sc2, this isn't broodwar where even the pro teams can dish out a relatively small chunk of money to pay for kids, not adults, to play all day and get good. People that have been with gaming or even the bw community for a long while are getting older, they either have to make enough or they'll move on to devote their time to other sources of income. If this became as big as say NFL proportions, if you have an announcer getting paid as much as top players, people would say WTF. Lot lot easier to find someone who can talk about what they can see compared to what the players can do. That's reality and compensation needs to be more appropriately considered going forward even right now its not completely in control due to things like youtube and the sort. There's a reason why in every sport players make the most, because without them you don't have the great games they produce.
I disagree with this really, why yes the commentators may not be the core factor but they are crucial to a game its appeal. I will be honest and say I prefer korean commentary over english most of the time. You know why?The appeal that they have, the passion and the excitement that they get over a game, I feel aswell. It is important that casters can not only tell what is going on , but transfer their excitement to the audience aswell. I would not watch SCBW for the world if it had no commentary really.
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A person with 200k subs can live in his own small condo, buy food, support himself, etc..
Husky and HD are around 400k now, they probably make more money with those 15 minute-a-day casts than most people on this forum. They certainly make more than the average pro gamer.
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On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all?
Dozens! DOZENS!
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Lol...show respect to get respect. At this rate, one of our bigger names (TotalBiscuit) is never going to post and give us inside information. He has the higher authority because he's a professional in the casting business. Respect his opinion and the whole "shut up" "no you shut up" won't happen.
As for the OP, I don't think casters should have royalties on their replays. If so, the community will turn into a greedy place and could potentially tear apart SC2 local Esports as a whole.
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On January 20 2011 06:55 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
Because they're fucking jealous. Let's just put it right out there in the open, that ugly truth. They are jealous because they don't get to do what they love for a job. I feel for em, really, life sucks, but good luck changing an unfair world. "It's much easier to hate, than to create"
Couldn't it also be down to the current casting crop being considered bad at their job in comparison to less successful but 'better' casters, while the top level obtained their success from being first on the boat more than any special quality they or their creations possess? That their key ability wasn't related to doing what they loved but a combination of luck and marketing? Are people meant to be reverent of anyone who's achieved success regardless of how they've achieved it?
As easy as it is to paint the entire population of anyone with a dissenting opinion with a tar brush of jealousy, it's akin to Fox News painting anyone who disagrees with Sarah Palin as a leftist propagandist.
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On January 20 2011 06:33 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:31 aike wrote:On January 20 2011 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount. You're no HD or Husky, so you wouldn't know how much somebody who generates as many views as they do makes. No you're right. I only have 216,000 subscribers and produce the most viewed World of Warcraft videos on the entirity of Youtube on a daily basis. Since WoW is such a tiny, unpopular game, I'm clearly living on 2 dollars a week and should be out picking rice. More to the point, they work for the same company as I do, so of course I know how much they earn. It is unwise to try and discuss things you know nothing about.
Fans of both WoW and SC2 are cool in my book, count me in as another subscriber, oh and you're at 217k atm btw.
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On January 20 2011 07:05 MDew wrote: A person with 100k subs can live in his own small condo, buy food, support himself, etc..
Husky and HD are around 400k now, they probably make more money with those 15 minute-a-day casts than most people on this forum. They certainly make more than the average pro gamer. Source? Since we don't actually have numbers, it's hard to say something like that.
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On January 20 2011 07:08 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:05 MDew wrote: A person with 100k subs can live in his own small condo, buy food, support himself, etc..
Husky and HD are around 400k now, they probably make more money with those 15 minute-a-day casts than most people on this forum. They certainly make more than the average pro gamer. Source? Since we don't actually have numbers, it's hard to say something like that.
I watch a few people on youtube with around 98k subs, who got fired from his job and is living off adsense revenue, and has been doing so for many months now.
They are not allowed to say how much they make.
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HD and Husky make too much money, but that's due to their overly-popular youtube chanels, most of the casters dont make a large profit, even if are better the Hd or Husky. And keep in mind most of them need to have a very good PC in order to not lag a game with multiple players, referrees and casters, even though a lot of programs are running in the back. + softwares Commentatin from reps and putting on youtube is the easiest way to make money, provided you manage to attract a large enogh viewer base
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On January 20 2011 07:04 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? And don't forget SC2 by itself costs FIVE dozens of dollars.
Well take into account the cost of the software/hardware, the time spent casting and not out doing other things for money, and all the other ancillary costs with spending a significant time putting together and doing everything associated with casting. I don't think they are rolling in the dough off of ad money or even the few sponsors some have.
How much do you guys think the top casters make? At least to get a starting baseline for the discussion.
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MrBitter showed on his stream that he made $263 from like 53,000 hits total on his blip.tv. (and I doubt he has anymore than the absolute most standard deal). I can only imagine youtube pays less than this, but if it's anything close to the for the top partners, it's a fortune they make.
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On January 20 2011 07:09 MDew wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:08 MythicalMage wrote:On January 20 2011 07:05 MDew wrote: A person with 100k subs can live in his own small condo, buy food, support himself, etc..
Husky and HD are around 400k now, they probably make more money with those 15 minute-a-day casts than most people on this forum. They certainly make more than the average pro gamer. Source? Since we don't actually have numbers, it's hard to say something like that. I watch a few people on youtube with around 98k subs, who got fired from his job and is living off adsense revenue, and has been doing so for many months now. They are not allowed to say how much they make. We also don't know their living expenses. HD and Husky both live in LA iirc, which has a much higher property value than most places.
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i think this has more to do with the actual casters rather than the $$$. lets be honest, if Day 9 asked for your games to cast you would give them in a second cause he is awesome and would create more awesome with it. people are mad about husky and hd making money off it only cause they don't like them... i tend to agree. no one likes when douchey people make money off them.
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On January 20 2011 07:09 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:04 MythicalMage wrote:On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? And don't forget SC2 by itself costs FIVE dozens of dollars. Well take into account the cost of the software/hardware, the time spent casting and not out doing other things for money, and all the other ancillary costs with spending a significant time putting together and doing everything associated with casting. I don't think they are rolling in the dough off of ad money or even the few sponsors some have. How much do you guys think the top casters make? At least to get a starting baseline for the discussion.
Pretty sure a 4 player map is mined out within an hour.
I dont see a daily commitment of 1 hour a day to be completely absorbing to the point where you cant run another job if you wanted to - let alone a 'normal' lifestyle.
There was a post a couple pages back with good ballpark figures for at least Husky (est. $80-100k p.a.).
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aren't the reps property of blizzard anyway? if anybody should want a cut of the money its blizzard.
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I only played SC cuz Husky and HD made it sound fun, especially during HDH. I'm too young for sc1 so wasn't into sc2. With that said, I bought the game and watch GSLs which gives eSports more $$.
I guarentee so many new players start because of those casters. With more people interested, there's more sponsors, and more money for pros. It's a cycle.
To be honest, TL is elitist (not that its bad) but people here are in Diamond or Masters league and many of them still introduce themselves as "2900 Diamond here, I'm not that good but my opinion is..." For many newer players who play as fun, Husky and HD is the starting point of their SC experience. They then move on to watch Day9 and maybe then GSL season tickets...etc.
TL DR; Husky and HD are getting more people into SC, so there's more money for pros to earn due to sponsorships and people buying the GSL season passes. In the end, SC2 and the pros that play it also recieves more money and recognition because casters get more people involved.
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Wow, I had no idea some people actually felt this way about casters.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? lol i was straight faced in this thread until this comment haha
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On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote: Oh this will end well.
A fairly massive thing you've failed to take into consideration is that without casters, you literally have no professional eSports. Sponsors will not pay a cent for something that isn't going to get publicised. It's not just 'oh the games would be boring without casters', it is the 'oh, nobody is getting paid because the sponsors can't get their brand out there because we don't have any prominent casters'.
There are 4 vital elements to eSports and without even one of those, eSports doesn't work. Looks something like this.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors
Take one of those out of the equation and you have no professional eSports. Probably best not to fuck with an element of it on that basis.
Consider this. In eSports, a 'caster' such as say, Husky, is not merely a commentator, he is an entirely television network in and of himself. If you're talking about 'buying the rights' to a series or tournament, then this already happens, though it's usually through a beneficial arrangement to all 4 elements of that equation. The caster uses his prominence and audience to bargain with the sponsors, to secure money for the players. He does not take money from the prizepool for himself (unless he is a complete dick and I really hope this doesn't happen), he is compensated via the ad revenue that his channel generates (and could easily generate from something that isn't Starcraft if need be). The players get paid, the sponsors get their brand recognition, the caster is compensated and the viewers get their entertainment without paying a dime.
I couldn't possibly not be biased on this subject, but I would like to think people wouldn't want to mess with that system, lest it fall apart and benefit no-one at all.
well said.
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Let's be honest they probably pirated all the software they use to record and edit videos with
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honestly dude, someone making money by working should be banned right?
User was warned for this post
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On January 20 2011 07:03 neo_sporin wrote: For me I am drawn by the casters not the players of tournament..so yea i agree they should make more money because they are the people gaining viewers like me.
I've gotta disagree. The players are far more important for me while watching. I'll even mute a match that's being casted by bad casters and just watch with music playing.
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I think technically Blizzard owns the commercial rights to content generated by the game. The EULA you have accepted in order to play the game says you may only use the game for non-commercial purposes, unless you have explicit consent from Blizzard. So i guess that rules out players selling replays? Direct quote from the EULA: "Exploit the Game or any of its parts, for any commercial purpose without Blizzard’s express permission, with the sole exception that you may use the Game, or copies of the Game, on the Service at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site to play on your own Account;"
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So this is kinda off topic, but whatever happened to HDH2?
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On January 20 2011 07:12 resilve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:09 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 20 2011 07:04 MythicalMage wrote:On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? And don't forget SC2 by itself costs FIVE dozens of dollars. Well take into account the cost of the software/hardware, the time spent casting and not out doing other things for money, and all the other ancillary costs with spending a significant time putting together and doing everything associated with casting. I don't think they are rolling in the dough off of ad money or even the few sponsors some have. How much do you guys think the top casters make? At least to get a starting baseline for the discussion. Pretty sure a 4 player map is mined out within an hour. I dont see a daily commitment of 1 hour a day to be completely absorbing to the point where you cant run another job if you wanted to - let alone a 'normal' lifestyle. There was a post a couple pages back with good ballpark figures for at least Husky (est. $80-100k p.a.).
$80,000 - $100,000 ..p.a. (per...annual? )?! That sound really high compared to what I thought was the case. That kind of forces me to rethink my stance a little, but still, if they have the ability to make that kind of dough off of some Youtube clips. Wow...
Also, I think its a bit more then one hour. Day[9] for example repeatedly mentioned he spends numerous hours per day along with help from his voluntary staff of sorts, sifting through submissions and looking for quality games. The final product is only a fraction of the time that went into producing it.
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I think most people here have a misguided sense of what is "right".A lot of people on these forums see HD and Husky and feel they don't deserve the views, and thus the ad revenue, that they get. From there they postulate that the current system is unjust.
However, that is the beauty of capitalism, if it was up to someone who didn't like HD or Husky, they wouldn't be able to provide content for the hundreds of thousands of people who do enjoy their casts. The fact that so many people like their content means that HD and Husky deserve every penny that Youtube decides they want to give HD and Husky. In fact, it doesnt matter what HD and Husky make. It just so happens that those several hundred thousand people who subscibe to Husky ad HD like their content, even though you may disapprove, and Youtube feels that they deserve some compensation for their work.
As for the OP, if the players want to sell the replays, and the casters want to buy them, then great! That exchange benefits the players and the casters, as the players get some money and the casters get a good replay. However, the players better be prepared in case the casters feel the replays are not worth the money to buy them.
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On January 20 2011 07:23 ReachTheSky wrote: So this is kinda off topic, but whatever happened to HDH2? HD and Husky don't like each other anymore.
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It's a you scratch my back I scratch yours kind of deal. As players they rely on a public fan base to fuel their income, mainly in terms of streams (ad revenue) and many players now coach. Only popular ones are able to charge high for their time, and so they've got to be famous. Getting your games casted is one great way of people valuing you.
Realistically though most gamers don't make much by the way of tournament winnings, so they need other ways to fill up their income and if you're well known then sponsors and the like can really make life easier...
So I mean yeah the casters benefit but they are doing work essentially for free. In the end it's not us who pays them but advertisers, and gamers benefit from people watching their games, and getting popular and in turn using that popularity to further their own carers.
Although TLO has dropped of the map lately his entire fame bubble was entirely thanks to casters.
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I wasn't going to post in here anymore, but there was something I needed to say.
Biscuit, I consider myself a "higher knowledge" player compared to what your casting is aimed at, and you are definitely in my top 3 casters. Don't ever stop. You have an amazing impact on bringing new players into the game with your style and funny accent and then educating about the game.
I don't understand this all this hate.
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On January 20 2011 07:12 relyt wrote: aren't the reps property of blizzard anyway? if anybody should want a cut of the money its blizzard.
thing is that they aren't being paid for the content, they are being paid for the page hits. So blizzard has no claim to any revenue in that sense. Infact people like TB, Husky and HD are good for blizzard as they bring in people who might else not buy SC2.
There are alot of my old wow friends who have shown up in SC2 after seeing TB's casts, so while TB made money on page hits, blizzard made money on game sales.
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Why do people care how much they make? How popular do you think e-sports would be without them?
I know I certainly wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with it as I am without HD/Husky/Day9. Your complaining that the 3 top casters in the world (most likely...this is just a guess!) shouldn't be making much money? Not to mention that the amount of money they earn is directly based on the impact they have on e-sports and the promotion of starcraft 2.
If they are making the est. $80k-$100k/yr that people estimate that means they are reaching a whole f***ton of people and generating huge ad results, which means more companies will want to advertise and sponsor starcraft 2. I fail to see why (other then jealousy or a possible mental handicap) people have a problem with the casters making money for something they are good at, that also generates money and interest for e-sports.
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On January 20 2011 07:24 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:12 resilve wrote:On January 20 2011 07:09 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 20 2011 07:04 MythicalMage wrote:On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? And don't forget SC2 by itself costs FIVE dozens of dollars. Well take into account the cost of the software/hardware, the time spent casting and not out doing other things for money, and all the other ancillary costs with spending a significant time putting together and doing everything associated with casting. I don't think they are rolling in the dough off of ad money or even the few sponsors some have. How much do you guys think the top casters make? At least to get a starting baseline for the discussion. Pretty sure a 4 player map is mined out within an hour. I dont see a daily commitment of 1 hour a day to be completely absorbing to the point where you cant run another job if you wanted to - let alone a 'normal' lifestyle. There was a post a couple pages back with good ballpark figures for at least Husky (est. $80-100k p.a.). $80,000 - $100,000 ..p.a. (per...annual? )?! That sound really high compared to what I thought was the case. That kind of forces me to rethink my stance a little, but still, if they have the ability to make that kind of dough off of some Youtube clips. Wow... Also, I think its a bit more then one hour. Day[9] for example repeatedly mentioned he spends numerous hours per day along with help from his voluntary staff of sorts, sifting through submissions and looking for quality games. The final product is only a fraction of the time that went into producing it.
i dont think anybody really knows the figure, but really it isnt exactly our business either. as far as i know husky also works at the game station to do stuff with their little company and channel, so the misconception that he just wakes up casts a 15 minute game and then goes out and does what he wants all day is pretty off base
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On January 20 2011 07:24 Shootemup. wrote: I think most people here have a misguided sense of what is "right".A lot of people on these forums see HD and Husky and feel they don't deserve the views, and thus the ad revenue, that they get. From there they postulate that the current system is unjust.
However, that is the beauty of capitalism, if it was up to someone who didn't like HD or Husky, they wouldn't be able to provide content for the hundreds of thousands of people who do enjoy their casts. The fact that so many people like their content means that HD and Husky deserve every penny that Youtube decides they want to give HD and Husky. In fact, it doesnt matter what HD and Husky make. It just so happens that those several hundred thousand people who subscibe to Husky ad HD like their content, even though you may disapprove, and Youtube feels that they deserve some compensation for their work.
As for the OP, if the players want to sell the replays, and the casters want to buy them, then great! That exchange benefits the players and the casters, as the players get some money and the casters get a good replay. However, the players better be prepared in case the casters feel the replays are not worth the money to buy them. Yep. The argument is like saying Justin Beiber doesn't deserve all the money he's making because I don't like his music.
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If HD and Husky made ten times as much money as they do now, it would still be a good thing.
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There's no such thing as "they're bad casters and so they don't deserve to make as much money as they do" and it actually boggles my mind that people would say this. They get viewers, and they take advantage of having viewers, therefore they deserve to be paid. Day9 or whoever is free to upload their stuff onto Youtube at any time, and I doubt that they'd have hard times getting partnerships. If players believe that their play is the more valuable part of the experience (compared to the casting), they can simply upload VODs on Youtube. They would of course have to compete with other players, same as casters compete with other casters. It may seem like Totalbiscuit is being a dick here, and he pretty much is, but I find that in these instances you pretty much get back out what you put in. And yes, I'm referring to TL and not Youtube; Youtube is pretty much dick-filled regardless.
edit: lol someone else basically said it better. But yeah, if the players don't like it they can just put up their own stuff. Casters can't profit off players if at least one player doesn't allow it.
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Calgary25938 Posts
On January 20 2011 07:21 Keldrath wrote: honestly dude, someone making money by working should be banned right? Can we not make stupid ass comments like these please? FUCK. It's a complicated issue with many viewpoints, and your dumb ass is going to come in here and ask a fucking retarded rhetorical question like it should be inherently obvious to everyone?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
It isn't like casters don't make this community better?
HD/Husky helped give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of newbs that complained about 2v2/3v3 balance. Without them we'd have flux vanes. You guys remember the horrible era of flux vanes?
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On January 20 2011 06:31 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount. You're no HD or Husky, so you wouldn't know how much somebody who generates as many views as they do makes.
If you ask me, he's way above Husky and HD in terms of entertainment. Hell, I'd say, when it comes to play by play, no one is better than TB.
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lol people have no idea how much youtube partnership pays.. somewhere i read around 100k a year LMAO LMAO
i.e. husky makes about 20k a year
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On January 20 2011 07:28 Chill wrote: Can we not make stupid ass comments like these please? FUCK. It's a complicated issue with many viewpoints, and your dumb ass is going to come in here and ask a fucking retarded rhetorical question like it should be inherently obvious to everyone? Incontroll's posts here haven't exactly been more useful. They are probably the cleverest ones in the thread, but does that merit exemption? I don't see that sort of thing being any better for the forums as a whole.
lol people have no idea how much youtube partnership pays.. somewhere i read around 100k a year LMAO LMAO
i.e. husky makes about 20k a year
er got any proof that you're knowledgeable in the matter?
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I am perfectly content with casters making more money than professional gamers. Casters are a medium to exposure in esports- without them, many of us would not be able to have our beloved 'idols' (i.e. Jaedong, Bisu, Jinro, etc.)
Nal_Ra, Kingdom, etc. make "X" money from OnGameNet/MBCGame as casters (they are arguably 2 of the most badass casters in Korean broadcasting to date). We do not need to be angry about casting just because SC2 casters are making "X+1" money from the comfort of their homes. Just be content that we are getting quality entertainment, and it is growing esports. Eventually, I forsee gamers overtaking casters in terms of salary. But that only comes with a high-level of exposure first, which is what the casters are providing the community.
Sorry if my opinion seems too conservative, that is just the way I feel about gaming; less arguing, more happiness
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I think people are underestimating casters' contribution to the starcraft and e-sports scene. They reach out and bring new people into the scene. I'm one of those people who first got interested in starcraft 2 though HD's and Husky's youtube channel.
I didn't know team liquid existed, until Husky or HD mentioned it in one of their casts. I watch their shows for the entertainment value. If I really wanted to learn more about strategy, I can always visit the team liquid strategy forum and hash things out there.
It's boring just looking at a replay with no play-by-play, commentary, and analysis. Part of the fun watching "sports" is not only the game, but the broadcasters, too. They bring life to the games.
Casters, players, sponsors, and viewers are intricately tied together in what we call the e-sports scene. Without one, the whole fabric would fall apart. So, I don't think we should bash the casters. We should praise them for their work and contribution for making starcraft more popular in mainstream media.
The players need exposure. The casters provide the platform and spotlight. Large amount of viewers are able to watch the casts. Sponsors like to see large amount of viewers taking an interest. They decide to invest in a tournament or in a team, hoping it would bring them more exposure to their brands. As the players become more popular through various caster's youtube channels and streams of tournament, more viewers will be tuning in. This makes sponsors happy and they will invest more money into tournaments and more money into teams. This is only good for the players.
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On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote: There are 4 vital elements to eSports and without even one of those, eSports doesn't work. Looks something like this.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors And how exactly does making casters pay for the material (other, legit casters have to (be employed by people who) pay for licenses, by the way, so it's not a far-fetched notion by any means) take casters (who create revenue) out of the equation?
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are there any actual numbers on what casters make. I can't imagine it being that much even the one's with many subscribers. even if it is it's not a big deal, good for them, they are bringing viewers free entertainment and spreading sc. no one has claim to these replays they cast anyways other then blizzard, and i guess gomtv for gsl games since they work with blizz.
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On January 20 2011 07:02 Alizee- wrote: I'll just make a clear post to address this and why I believe many of you are wrong. Right now there is a disparity between what casters and players are making. That's clear as day as the "stars" of the game should be the ones making the most.
what you dont acknowlege, is that sometimes, i will watch a game, not because player X is playing in it, but because incontrol is casting it. so im interested in game because of caster, not a player, but you say it's clear as day, that player should earn more?
also, your work is worth only as much as someone is willing to pay you. if there are casters that earn more than players, then that's the way it's supposed be.
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I guess to strengthen my previous points: do gamers not put in hours upon hours practicing? Practice that may get them no tournament wins and thus no prize money? Oh.......shit. Let's be real, most of the people saying oh HD and Husky got me into sc2 if it wasn't for them I'd of never watched, and I don't even have sc2 installed! *giggle* Yes and you're also the same people who when they disappear from the scene, you will too.
Look at the old broodwar community, when people talk about Mondragon you could have ANY person in the entire world to be "the caster" give them a brief introduction to said caster about how big of a deal he is and bam, you have excitement. Now contrast that with we have the worst lineup of players everrrr at a tournament, but its casted by a big name woo! It doesn't work, players win out and if your appeal is to a caster instead of to a game and its players, you won't have the long term draw that is necessary to build something up.
To draw a reference, and no offense to those named, Tyler commented on the absurdity of how thousands of people watch people play Day9 play the word game instead of actually watching people play. Exactly how does e-sports grow with starcraft2 if they're more concerned with a word game? I don't care what's right or what's wrong or who should make this or whatever, bottom line is the priorities are all out of whack. No offense to the sub 100 posters, but when you guys are here in 5 years, let me know then I'll give credit where credit is due.
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On January 20 2011 07:29 iNcontroL wrote: It isn't like casters don't make this community better?
HD/Husky helped give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of newbs that complained about 2v2/3v3 balance. Without them we'd have flux vanes. You guys remember the horrible era of flux vanes? And you complain about people trolling do you All i wanted to do is start an interesting openminded discussion with thought about arguments and respectful behavior by all participants. Is that really too much to ask in a forum? + Show Spoiler +
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
This is ridiculous..
Casters tirelessly sit in their house and commentate for a solid 15~30 fucking minutes A DAY on games that are extremely hard to describe. They painfully tax their brain to understanding something that would normally take years to master..
Lets not mention the top tier casters? Day9 almost weekly removes himself from the comforts of his own home to fly to scary, distant lands where he has never been and see people he has never met JUST TO COMMENTATE FOR YOU. Does he do it for the money? Sure. Does he do it for the experience? I guess. But mostly he does it because he is brave.
Tasteless and Artosis banished themselves from their home country.. left behind women, fame, money.. their mothers.. and are now living in isolation. FORCED to wear stupid jackets and sit in a high place while describing GSL games. You wonder why Tasteless is sick all the time? And you have the audacity to call to question a man as heroic as he making money commentating?
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I can't help but think of this type of situation as a musician. It is very much the opinion of many venues that they are doing the musician a favor by allowing them to play at their venue for no pay; in SC2 terms, that I've seen up thread here, the caster is doing the player a favor by casting their replay with no reward other increased exposure; in the end, it is only the venue or caster that stands to possibly make any money from the arrangement.
Can we please stop hating players for not wanting to have other profit from their work? Hardly anyone is able to make a decent living from tournament winnings. There is absolutely no reason to stop the cash flow at the caster; I say something like royalties determined by a % of a casters income from a replay should be passed on to the players in question. This way, small time casters and guys like Husky/HD could coexist with no one unable to "afford" the reps of certain players. If you have no viewers, the replay is free.
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I am pretty sure all replays are the property of Blizzard anyways, since they created the format and the script to record in-game actions. One would have to read the contract, but I am pretty sure we are not the direct owners of our own replays, thus we cannot sell them. I could be wrong though...
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On January 20 2011 07:30 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:31 aike wrote:On January 20 2011 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: Incidently, as has been mentioned in previous threads, you don't actually have any idea how much partners make so stop guessing, I can assure you you're all wrong. And no, we're not allowed to reveal the exact amount. You're no HD or Husky, so you wouldn't know how much somebody who generates as many views as they do makes. If you ask me, he's way above Husky and HD in terms of entertainment. Hell, I'd say, when it comes to play by play, no one is better than TB.
i am not trying to be mean but i really do not get how people can find husky or tb interesting or entertaining, at all. tb for example, all he has going for him is the good commentators voice. his sensationalism just seems obnoxious to me. compared to tasteless, artosis and even day9 he just seems worthless. he knows close to nothing about the game :/ ive been trying to get a friend to watch/play sc recently. i show him tastosis quote videos and live gsl and he loves it. im pretty sure id just embarrass sc if i showed him some totalbiscuit.
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Personally the only reason I'd ever consider getting a partnership is to get rid of that extremely irritating 15 minute upload limit.
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On January 20 2011 07:37 Dagobert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote: There are 4 vital elements to eSports and without even one of those, eSports doesn't work. Looks something like this.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors And how exactly does making casters pay for the material (other, legit casters have to (be employed by people who) pay for licenses, by the way, so it's not a far-fetched notion by any means) take casters (who create revenue) out of the equation?
When casters put on tournaments, they need to get approval from Blizzard, so I guess that's a form of a license. However, I don't think the casters are paying blizzard for the right to host and organize tournaments.
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On January 20 2011 07:39 PatouPower wrote: I am pretty sure all replays are the property of Blizzard anyways, since they created the format and the script to record in-game actions. One would have to read the contract, but I am pretty sure we are not the direct owners of our own replays, thus we cannot sell them. I could be wrong though...
Its more an argument of ethics and morality than legality.
Blizzard owns everything, we all bow to their decision. Every post in this entire thread is moot because of that.
However what people 'feel' is right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable is a different matter.
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On January 20 2011 06:50 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:33 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they don't earn nearly as much as you may think they do. Ad revenue is minimal especially when you consider the cost and time put into the cast itself and all the associated equipment. Yeah the programs associated with casting alone cost nearly dozens of dollars. Have you guys factored that in at all? Ustream producer pro: $199 Vegas: $599 / Premiere $799 Maybe they use something else or pirate these but I dunno. HD Webcam: $28+
That's probably 85 and a half dozens already.
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On January 20 2011 07:38 iNcontroL wrote: This is ridiculous..
Casters tirelessly sit in their house and commentate for a solid 15~30 fucking minutes A DAY on games that are extremely hard to describe. They painfully tax their brain to understanding something that would normally take years to master..
Lets not mention the top tier casters? Day9 almost weekly removes himself from the comforts of his own home to fly to scary, distant lands where he has never been and see people he has never met JUST TO COMMENTATE FOR YOU. Does he do it for the money? Sure. Does he do it for the experience? I guess. But mostly he does it because he is brave.
Tasteless and Artosis banished themselves from their home country.. left behind women, fame, money.. their mothers.. and are now living in isolation. FORCED to wear stupid jackets and sit in a high place while describing GSL games. You wonder why Tasteless is sick all the time? And you have the audacity to call to question a man as heroic as he making money commentating?
Incontrol i usually respect your rants, may they be ironic or not. But come on first of im not talking about tournament casters but replays. Those dont apply here . Aren't you , as a mod responsible to keeping threads like this on track and not disrupted by ,even the most humorous of posts with no actual value (entertainment excluded)
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Even if casters do make too much money, they don't owe anything to the progamers. In every single sports organization, players are paid by their teams (along with winnings), not spectators or commentators. Spectators do help increase pay, though, but I don't see how people can draw a link between commentators being overpaid and progamers being underpaid.
If Husky/HD stopped getting paid, it's not like progamers would start getting paid more. Progamer pay and caster pay aren't inversely related. In fact, I would argue that they are directly related, and if caster pay continues to increase, then progamer pay will also increase.
If people are upset that Husky/HD are earning money without having a particularly unique and valuable set of skills (debatable), there are far better targets to complain about that earn far greater amounts of money in the entertainment industry.
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On January 20 2011 07:43 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:37 Dagobert wrote:On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote: There are 4 vital elements to eSports and without even one of those, eSports doesn't work. Looks something like this.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors And how exactly does making casters pay for the material (other, legit casters have to (be employed by people who) pay for licenses, by the way, so it's not a far-fetched notion by any means) take casters (who create revenue) out of the equation? When casters put on tournaments, they need to get approval from Blizzard, so I guess that's a form of a license. However, I don't think the casters are paying blizzard for the right to host and organize tournaments.
Tournaments are one thing, definitely if a caster puts on a tournament he has rights to the replays can cast the games all he wants, by putting on the tourney he is giving the player some form of compensation.
But in the case where a caster just takes a random ladder replay and casts it on youtube and makes money on it he should give some small percent to the players involved.
It doesn't HURT the caster to give up 5% of his earnings of which he'd have none if the player never played the game.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Sorry. I don't get paid to moderate. I am actually up in arms that you guys create content on this website with posts and I have yet found a way to make money off of it.
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On January 20 2011 07:39 PatouPower wrote: I am pretty sure all replays are the property of Blizzard anyways, since they created the format and the script to record in-game actions. One would have to read the contract, but I am pretty sure we are not the direct owners of our own replays, thus we cannot sell them. I could be wrong though...
Agreed. If anyone is to charge for replays, it would be Blizzard. So far they turned an blind eye to it because the casters are basically giving them free publicity.
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If TL thinks there are better quality casters out there, why not make a "featured caster of the week" section? I sure as hell wouldn't mind finding new ones, but I'm too lazy to scour youtube for casters of questionable quality when I can just click on good old HD or Husky. Sure, Artosis is way better as a cast, he just doesn't churn out enough vids for me to get my fix.
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On January 20 2011 07:29 iNcontroL wrote: It isn't like casters don't make this community better?
HD/Husky helped give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of newbs that complained about 2v2/3v3 balance. Without them we'd have flux vanes. You guys remember the horrible era of flux vanes? With flux vanes we wouldn't have Jinro's mech vs. Protoss, I reckon. I'm sure as a toss this has you pissed, but I don't like void rays seeming to make carriers superfluous and this seems to have helped with that.
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On January 20 2011 07:38 iNcontroL wrote: This is ridiculous..
Casters tirelessly sit in their house and commentate for a solid 15~30 fucking minutes A DAY on games that are extremely hard to describe. They painfully tax their brain to understanding something that would normally take years to master..
Lets not mention the top tier casters? Day9 almost weekly removes himself from the comforts of his own home to fly to scary, distant lands where he has never been and see people he has never met JUST TO COMMENTATE FOR YOU. Does he do it for the money? Sure. Does he do it for the experience? I guess. But mostly he does it because he is brave.
Tasteless and Artosis banished themselves from their home country.. left behind women, fame, money.. their mothers.. and are now living in isolation. FORCED to wear stupid jackets and sit in a high place while describing GSL games. You wonder why Tasteless is sick all the time? And you have the audacity to call to question a man as heroic as he making money commentating? LMAO maybe HD and Husky should cast while sitting on unicycles above fire pits and they will never see threads like this again.
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On January 20 2011 07:46 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry. I don't get paid to moderate. I am actually up in arms that you guys create content on this website with posts and I have yet found a way to make money off of it. Oh come on the point i was trying to make in this thread was whether the casters like hd or husky should give some of the money they make back to the people that , in a way created that content . Now you as a progamer could share some insight on this topic from your point of view instead of what you are doing right now. I would apreciate it and im sure so would everybody else
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On January 20 2011 06:07 Erandorr wrote: Think about it : in any other sport, professional teams get a big percentage of the income created by the content they create.
what gave you this idea ? The team mates get a salary + bonuses and the star player or 2 gets paid big. In no way do the teams get a "big percentage" thats the owners.
You think when sony entertainment releases the CD of an artist, the the artist get anything more than a VERY small percentage of the content they create ?
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On January 20 2011 07:01 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:53 Kipsate wrote: Seriously, why is there hate all over the interwebs for the casters. These people bring the game to the mainstream, I know people who don't even have SC2 installed yet watch the youtube channels. It is both great marketing for Blizzard and for E-sports.
While they do work hard, becoming a top caster has been more on a "first come first served" basis than becoming a top player. Once "good enough" casters got exposure, they became the top casters, and that's that. If they keep working to produce content, they keep their spots. If there are better casters out there that'd do better shows and/or work for less money, it's much less likely for us to ever discover them at this point. It's hard to break into the scene. Players, on the other hand, deserve all the respect in the world! This is why we need monthly casting tournaments to decide who is allowed to cast the next month's tournament.
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On January 20 2011 07:46 Enervate wrote: Even if casters do make too much money, they don't owe anything to the progamers. In every single sports organization, players are paid by their teams (along with winnings), not spectators or commentators. Spectators do help increase pay, though, but I don't see how people can draw a link between commentators being overpaid and progamers being underpaid.
If Husky/HD stopped getting paid, it's not like progamers would start getting paid more. Progamer pay and caster pay aren't inversely related. In fact, I would argue that they are directly related, and if caster pay continues to increase, then progamer pay will also increase.
If people are upset that Husky/HD are earning money without having a particularly unique and valuable set of skills (debatable), there are far better targets to complain about that earn far greater amounts of money in the entertainment industry.
this! is you think it's unfair that some players get paid less than some casters, mail your concern to your favorite player team manager. read it before you click "send", and realize how stupid what you are saying actually is.
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On January 20 2011 07:47 Brotkrumen wrote: If TL thinks there are better quality casters out there, why not make a "featured caster of the week" section? I sure as hell wouldn't mind finding new ones, but I'm too lazy to scour youtube for casters of questionable quality when I can just click on good old HD or Husky. Sure, Artosis is way better as a cast, he just doesn't churn out enough vids for me to get my fix.
Tyler is right about this issue.
Being 'the best', or even 'better' has nothing to do with it. The architecture of youtube subscriptions rewards 'the first' and the pioneers ad infinitum.
The subscription model is a snowballing effect, to work it up from nothing (or nearly nothing, even with the help of a few thousand TL fans) is an insane obstacle to overcome.
As long as you got there first (a la HD and Husky), with a few marketing and promotional ploys, all you have to do is churn out mediocrity and you can maintain it.
That is my personal gripe with this system.
I would not begrudge Day9/TB/Artosis the guestimated earnings of Husky for the content they put out.
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On January 20 2011 07:51 Warlike Prince wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:07 Erandorr wrote: Think about it : in any other sport, professional teams get a big percentage of the income created by the content they create. what gave you this idea ? The team mates get a salary + bonuses and the star player or 2 gets paid big. In no way do the teams get a "big percentage" thats the owners. You think when sony entertainment releases the CD of an artist, the the artist get anything more than a VERY small percentage of the content they create ? Exactly. Look at books for example. Authors get a VERY small amount of the retail price of a book, despite them being the "content creators."
That being said, I do think commentators/casters are more content creators than players, at least in the sense of a casted game. Anyone can go find the replay of top play vs other top player, but most people would prefer to have it casted.
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On January 20 2011 07:38 iNcontroL wrote: This is ridiculous..
Casters tirelessly sit in their house and commentate for a solid 15~30 fucking minutes A DAY on games that are extremely hard to describe. They painfully tax their brain to understanding something that would normally take years to master..
Lets not mention the top tier casters? Day9 almost weekly removes himself from the comforts of his own home to fly to scary, distant lands where he has never been and see people he has never met JUST TO COMMENTATE FOR YOU. Does he do it for the money? Sure. Does he do it for the experience? I guess. But mostly he does it because he is brave.
Tasteless and Artosis banished themselves from their home country.. left behind women, fame, money.. their mothers.. and are now living in isolation. FORCED to wear stupid jackets and sit in a high place while describing GSL games. You wonder why Tasteless is sick all the time? And you have the audacity to call to question a man as heroic as he making money commentating? I love you so much. the only way this thread could be better is if someone brings it up on state of the game
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I got no problem with casters like pre-launch HD and Husky, day9, any tourney host like gosugamers or w/e making cash off their views, because they turn around and get sponsorships for tournaments, give back to the community, etc.
Recently, though, my opinion's shifted, specifically in the HDH scene. They never went through with the massive invitational they had planned, and post-release they really haven't done anything but use replays generated by other people's tournaments to get money. Even a modest $1 CPM (low for most content, but youtube could probably get away with it or less) would have them sitting at a literal shit ton of money off the past four or five months, during which they haven't actually been part of anything that's helped feed the people they cast playing. I mean, there's the occasional redeeming factor like HD casting his own experience learning to get better, but overall, these guys have been doing more leeching than seeding in the past months, and I'm not really a fan of that.
Something isn't right when the tourney organizers are making less than people who grab the reps and post a cast video.
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On January 20 2011 07:47 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:29 iNcontroL wrote: It isn't like casters don't make this community better?
HD/Husky helped give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of newbs that complained about 2v2/3v3 balance. Without them we'd have flux vanes. You guys remember the horrible era of flux vanes? With flux vanes we wouldn't have Jinro's mech vs. Protoss, I reckon. I'm sure as a toss this has you pissed, but I don't like void rays seeming to make carriers superfluous and this seems to have helped with that. Yes because with Flux Vanes Void Rays would absolutely dominate vikings and anything else you could throw at them. God those stacked up, 0 armor, sub 300 HP monsters destroy everything. Thor AoE, marine DPS vs unarmored targets, yamato blasts, and not to mention 9 range kiting machines that are vikings could do NOTHING to stop the Void Ray. THANK GOD that now they move as fast as a hydra off creep, no matter what you invest into them, so that now 1 viking can defeat infinity void rays, before they were just SO IMBA. Terran could do nothing to stop them before, at least now they have a complete counter available for the fair one time price of 150 minerals and 75 gas.
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casters have money ? that is really new =P
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I am posting these quotes as I know they are correct.
ofc feel free to believe it or not
I am a youtube partner and i do make enough to not have a job, but you do NOT get paid per channel views and per subscribers. You ONLY make money of of the advertisements in your videos, nothing more. Why would YouTube pay for channel views or even subscribers when they don’t make money off of that? They make money off of the ads so they give the partners a portion of their pay.
I’m a youtube partner. I dont make enough to quit my job. In Feb 2010 I made $800.00 off my youtube video views. I got around 600,000 views to make this amount. Partners get paid 2 ways. You get paid for clicks on ads and every 1000 ad impressions you get paid a certain amount. It depends on what the cost per 1000 ad impressions is that day. Partners can only track earnings for the adsense for content host in their adsense accounts. The youtube video view money is posted the following month. So what I made from youtube in feb off videos views will be added to the adsense for content host amount I make in March 2010. I will get that check in April.It will be over $1,000 before taxes. I wont say who I am but I have a music channel on youtube
You’re lucky to get $1 per 1000 views
Nobody gets paid per channel view, video view or subscriber, all you get is a share of the click through revenues
Therefore you can have 1000 views and earn $5.00 *IF* one in a hundred viewers click through to the ad on your video, equally you can have 1000 views and earn $0.05 if only 1 viewer clicks the ad
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On January 20 2011 07:49 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:46 iNcontroL wrote: Sorry. I don't get paid to moderate. I am actually up in arms that you guys create content on this website with posts and I have yet found a way to make money off of it. Oh come on the point i was trying to make in this thread was whether the casters like hd or husky should give some of the money they make back to the people that , in a way created that content . you want casters to pay blizzard royalties?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick.
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How about we take all the casters in the SC2 community and throw them into a lake. If they float, they are a duck, and therefore filled with evil intentions. If they don't, they are good and we can rest easy knowing they are not ducks. What say you Team Liquid?
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No, I don't think players should charge for their replays.
As far as casters making money, well, they were smart to see the opportunity and grab it, and luck also played a role. That is how business usually works and that's how the world works.
On the other hand, I'm losing more and more respect for TB every time he comes into one of these threads mentioning Husky and goes on his holier than thou rants about how casters are some elites who are doing everything out of their noble goodwill for the community and everyone who questions them should STFU because they know nothing. It really isn't doing him or other casters any favor by being so overly defensive.
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On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Don't blame TB for coming off defensive and acting "holier than thou."
He can't help where he was born and the way he was raised.
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On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes
Incontrol if you saw someone making posts like the ones you do now would you enjoy it or temp ban them?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes
FULL TIME MY ASS
he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best.
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Enjoy it, and wait for someone else to temp ban probably
<3 incontrol
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 20 2011 08:00 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes Incontrol if you saw someone making posts like the ones you do now would you enjoy it or temp ban them?
I would perm ban them for impersonating someone greater than they.
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I'm getting ready to go out and only read up to page 2.
My 2 cents in this is that if casters are really making so much money off each cast, then they should consider hosting their own tournaments with decent prize pools. This would increase the activity in the scene, channel more money to the players while also generating more money for the casters through ads and decrease the dependency on an external company sponsoring. If casters can really make that much money off Youtube videos then it seems to me that the Sponsor aspect of the Caster/Player/Viewer/Sponsor machination can actually be replaced with the Caster itself. It would mean more work for the caster but it would definitely channel their money back to esports. Doesn't Day9 do this with Wednesday Night Fights?
If they AREN'T making that much money, then of course they can't do what I've suggested above. That suggestion however, would result in some amount of monopoly in the field because those casters who are already making money would have the means to generate more money by setting up tournaments while those who are making bare minimum they need will find it harder to compete in content and thus viewers, and even further down, actual returns.
I'm basically highlighting the fact that if money is being brought in outside from Sponsors through adverts then that money can be put into the community to grow it.
Now that that's done, I personally believe that players should be compensated for putting out good content though that money need not directly come from the casters. Instead, they can use Paypal to get donations from fans, especially anyone who wants to point fingers.
Alternatively, I think that if a tournament promised a a very small sum per game won, it would be sufficient to slowly add up. Players participate in a lot of small tourneys (I believe it was highlighted in another thread how top level players were playing in small scale tourneys and there was an issue about them killing the scene) and by having a small sum per game won, you increase the money returned to the player slowly. Even if this sum was just a dollar per game won, I think it would add up. I use 'won' rather than 'played' because then there'd be the issue of players throwing games on a technicality that the game was actually played.
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On January 20 2011 08:01 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes FULL TIME MY ASS he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best. djWHEAT djWHEAT I love it when people get angry that I don't answer their emails or calls, and then surprised when they find out I work full-time. :/ 3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply
copy pasta from twitter <3
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On January 20 2011 07:46 Enervate wrote: Even if casters do make too much money, they don't owe anything to the progamers. In every single sports organization, players are paid by their teams (along with winnings), not spectators or commentators. Spectators do help increase pay, though, but I don't see how people can draw a link between commentators being overpaid and progamers being underpaid.
If Husky/HD stopped getting paid, it's not like progamers would start getting paid more. Progamer pay and caster pay aren't inversely related. In fact, I would argue that they are directly related, and if caster pay continues to increase, then progamer pay will also increase.
Agreed, Caster pay is not too high, player pay is just (currently) too low unless you are one of the few to be on a top team.
On January 20 2011 07:52 resilve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:47 Brotkrumen wrote: If TL thinks there are better quality casters out there, why not make a "featured caster of the week" section? I sure as hell wouldn't mind finding new ones, but I'm too lazy to scour youtube for casters of questionable quality when I can just click on good old HD or Husky. Sure, Artosis is way better as a cast, he just doesn't churn out enough vids for me to get my fix. Tyler is right about this issue. Being 'the best', or even 'better' has nothing to do with it. The architecture of youtube subscriptions rewards 'the first' and the pioneers ad infinitum. The subscription model is a snowballing effect, to work it up from nothing (or nearly nothing, even with the help of a few thousand TL fans) is an insane obstacle to overcome. As long as you got there first (a la HD and Husky), with a few marketing and promotional ploys, all you have to do is churn out mediocrity and you can maintain it. That is my personal gripe with this system.
This isn't just a youtube thing, it's an issue with every market in the world. With gaming you can look at MMOs. World of Warcraft is an old game is becoming outdated but it refuses to die. Many other games have high potential but they just don't get the playerbase as they are all firmly entrenched in WoW. Same thing with Pro teams. A player may join a team while on a hot-streak but they don't lose their spot if they have a bad month. Mac and Windows are the dominant operating systems and will continue to be even with atrocities like Windows Vista. Linux didn't come blast them out of the water.
It sound like you have a personal gripe with how all marketing works, not just the youtube system.
The early bird gets the worm ^^
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I think this goes down to why e-sports is such a hard thing to actually do well in. If you got paid a stable salary just for playing and making the content then it would make a huge difference in the industry
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Is this amount of money even worth talking about? We can simplify and say that there are 2 casters that earn any kind of money from casting and between them they probably have like $100k or less after their expenses. Now if they give all that away to the 400 people whose replays they casted during the year each of those players gets $250 per year. That's not going to help anybody support their ESPORTS career. Now let's have a million nerds up in arms for a sum less than some random CEO spends on a sports car to compensate for his small dick.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 20 2011 08:02 Sevryn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:01 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes FULL TIME MY ASS he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best. djWHEAT djWHEAT I love it when people get angry that I don't answer their emails or calls, and then surprised when they find out I work full-time. :/ 3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply copy pasta from twitter <3
Dude, he can't work full time.. look at my argument. How is it possible?
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You know, turning things around you can make something sound a lot more positive. Players charging for replays versus say....Casters giving a fair cut to the players for letting them cast their games. Broodwar was the era of players, now sc2 is the era of casters. Maybe I could be the first caster to cast a caster casting a match between two players? Youtube, here I come!
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On January 20 2011 07:57 Sein wrote: On the other hand, I'm losing more and more respect for TB every time he comes into one of these threads mentioning Husky and goes on his holier than thou rants about how casters are some elites who are doing everything out of their noble goodwill for the community and everyone who questions them should STFU because they know nothing. It really isn't doing him or other casters any favor by being so overly defensive.
This bullshit hyperbole isn't helping the discussion either, not that there is any discussion anymore. If that's how you choose to take what I said that's your own problem. Telling people not to make shit up when they know nothing about the thing they're trying to discuss is common sense and as for the rest of it, I've never actually said that so whatever you want to fill in the blanks with is your own business.
As regards to Incontrol, his posts were spot on and excellent. But since he has now mentioned my inefficient upbringing I must ask that I receive more pity from everyone involved.
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On January 20 2011 08:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:02 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 08:01 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes FULL TIME MY ASS he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best. djWHEAT djWHEAT I love it when people get angry that I don't answer their emails or calls, and then surprised when they find out I work full-time. :/ 3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply copy pasta from twitter <3 Dude, he can't work full time.. look at my argument. How is it possible? clones
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On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Not sure if that last part is trolling or w/e, but streaming doesn't net you as much as static video views on youtube does. That's why the more businessy casters dont bother with streaming, because it would just cut in to their profits.
But yeah, sucks to produce an awesome event, release reps so the public can enjoy them, and then get boned as other casters score all the views for people who want to see casted games.
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On January 20 2011 08:00 iNcontroL wrote: Don't blame TB for coming off defensive and acting "holier than thou."
He can't help where he was born and the way he was raised.
Hey as much as TB likes to pretend he's english, to us he's like a bizarre caricature by someone who's never been to britain of what they imagine british people are like. It's like that video on youtube with the italian guy doing that song full of gibberish that kind of sounds like english.
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On January 20 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:00 Erandorr wrote:On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes Incontrol if you saw someone making posts like the ones you do now would you enjoy it or temp ban them? I would perm ban them for impersonating someone greater than they.
So thats where Idras bans came from? It all makes sense now .
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On January 20 2011 07:55 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:47 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On January 20 2011 07:29 iNcontroL wrote: It isn't like casters don't make this community better?
HD/Husky helped give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of newbs that complained about 2v2/3v3 balance. Without them we'd have flux vanes. You guys remember the horrible era of flux vanes? With flux vanes we wouldn't have Jinro's mech vs. Protoss, I reckon. I'm sure as a toss this has you pissed, but I don't like void rays seeming to make carriers superfluous and this seems to have helped with that. Yes because with Flux Vanes Void Rays would absolutely dominate vikings and anything else you could throw at them. God those stacked up, 0 armor, sub 300 HP monsters destroy everything. Thor AoE, marine DPS vs unarmored targets, yamato blasts, and not to mention 9 range kiting machines that are vikings could do NOTHING to stop the Void Ray. THANK GOD that now they move as fast as a hydra off creep, no matter what you invest into them, so that now 1 viking can defeat infinity void rays, before they were just SO IMBA. Terran could do nothing to stop them before, at least now they have a complete counter available for the fair one time price of 150 minerals and 75 gas. Lol Terran already had an unbeatable hard counter to void rays: marines with stim. At least now we don't have to see f'in marauders every TvP. I don't think TvP is solved and I don't think the void ray is solved. I think it's enough that Blizzard has made every unit decently viable in at least one matchup. I don't think the void ray needs to be viable in every matchup. I think think it can be useful in PvP. I'm not sure about PvZ, I'd guess it's not a big deal but I haven't seen any PvZs with void rays in this patch yet. Carrier is looking viable in TvP and I've seen more usage of Phoenixes in TvP and it's been working pretty well too. Phoenixes kill Vikings when they are equal numbers but they come out to slow to get near equal numbers so the patch could help that. Void Rays were never meant to win vs. Vikings because they are primarily for air to ground - phoenixes are air to air and vikings are meant to be air to air so they should beat void rays. If you want to use void rays in pvt you should at least have major phoenix support which is probably impossible to get unless you are way ahead already but that doesn't strike me as a design flaw.
This is all irrelevant anyway, there's no reason for people to be so condescending to players of 2v2 and 3v3 and if Husky and HD helped those players get the game fixed, major kudos to those guys. No one has contested that it helped the game for 2v2 and 3v3. If it broke 1v1, we should be talking about what changes Blizzard should have made to fix 2v2 and 3v3 without breaking 1v1. We should not be blaming Husky and HD for pointing out a problem and having Blizzard make the wrong response.
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On January 20 2011 08:05 SharkSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Not sure if that last part is trolling or w/e, but streaming doesn't net you as much as static video views on youtube does. That's why the more businessy casters dont bother with streaming, because it would just cut in to their profits. But yeah, sucks to produce an awesome event, release reps so the public can enjoy them, and then get boned as other casters score all the views for people who want to see casted games. HuskyStarcraft I am going to ATTEMPT to livestream the next couple of casts that I'm going to do. It shall be the ultimate 'is my internet fixed' test. http://www.livestream.com/HuskyStarcraft about an hour ago
copy from facebook. husky is like the caster on youtube and he is trying to stream
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On January 20 2011 08:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:02 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 08:01 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes FULL TIME MY ASS he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best. djWHEAT djWHEAT I love it when people get angry that I don't answer their emails or calls, and then surprised when they find out I work full-time. :/ 3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply copy pasta from twitter <3 Dude, he can't work full time.. look at my argument. How is it possible? He cuts probes?
EdiT: ok, let me add that I'm with Incontrol with this one... Working full time and having a wife and a child is exactly my situation, and I have barely 10 minutes a night to do my show. I do it because I enjoy SC2, and I don't care how big it gets as long as I am helpful to the community. If he does work full time, then he is definitely neglecting (conscious of it or not) either his wife or his child.
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I don't know and I don't care about how much a caster makes casting in YouTube. If the product that they create has high quality I don't see any problem in them making money of it.
Just remember if some casters are indeed receiveing money for a 'poor' product it's all OUR fault because it was all of us that put them up there. WE empowered them. So stop bitching about it.
The only thing that really troubles me in this problem is that Day9 ONLY has around 110.000ish subs and he deserves much much more.
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On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick.
Incontrol: Nobody is telling them to do anything. They are volunteering. Just like you volunteer to moderate for TeamLiquid. Just like I volunteer to donate blood every 6 months. It is out of the kindness of your heart. If you, me, scoots, or anybody can find a way to make money by doing it, that is not a sin. It just is not the #1 priority. This is meant to increase your civic duty, and contribute to a greater cause. They have no binding contract (as far as I know) towards Wheat, TeamLiquid, etc. They can do as they please. It is of choice.
Everyone; This is an entertainment video game. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to watch, play, listen, etc. Shane Dawson makes unbelievable amounts of money just by being himself and making silly skits on YouTube about people he knows in real life. Those real life people do not get paid anything for the characters he mimics. Do we throw a hissy fit? No. He has talent. Day9 has talent. Artosis has talent. Kingdom has talent.
If a caster has no talent, it is recognized by the community. Enough with this elite attitude that gamers should receive the most, and that you are mad that more people watch Day9 playing text twist. Fuck, I prefer watching Day9 playing text twist. I prefer watching Cella singing Kpop and BoxeR being sad that he put him on SlayerS. I prefer watching Boesthius drunk laddering singing Kpop and Metal simultaneously at 2am. They have a vibe and persona that illuminates to us as viewers when we watch or listen to him. They make me happy.
You have NO right to tell me what is entertainment and what is not. I will decide what I find to be fun.
You won't benefit anyone by trying to take down casters. Trust me.
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On January 20 2011 08:08 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:05 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 08:02 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 08:01 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes FULL TIME MY ASS he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best. djWHEAT djWHEAT I love it when people get angry that I don't answer their emails or calls, and then surprised when they find out I work full-time. :/ 3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply copy pasta from twitter <3 Dude, he can't work full time.. look at my argument. How is it possible? He cuts probes? EdiT: ok, let me add that I'm with Incontrol with this one... Working full time and having a wife and a child is exactly my situation, and I have barely 10 minutes a night to do my show. I do it because I enjoy SC2, and I don't care how big it gets as long as I am helpful to the community. If he does work full time, then he is definitely neglecting (conscious of it or not) either his wife or his child. Chrono Boost dude, Chrono Boost.
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On January 20 2011 06:09 Hasire wrote: If the replay is released to the public, then the player can't really expect money in return for it. If they hoard them expecting money, the casters will just go to someone else for reps.
Replays aren't always released by the players, sometimes it is an observer who posts it and then there is nothing else you can do as a player to get it back. Also, if one player wants to release it and another does not then what happens?
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On January 20 2011 08:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:02 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 08:01 iNcontroL wrote:On January 20 2011 07:59 Sevryn wrote:On January 20 2011 07:57 iNcontroL wrote: I actually feel bad for the production people above all.
Sirscoots?
Slasher?
Lee?
These are the true victims. Producing MLG, Lo3, WoC... behind the scenes and not getting ANYTHING. Fucking bigwigs like DjWheat rolling in fat stacks while scoots sits empty handed with his lowly tricaster... makes me sick. Djwheat deserves to roll in fat stacks but he works full time in addition to all the content he makes FULL TIME MY ASS he still has time to raise a kid, be married AND play video games. He is working 1/4th time at best. djWHEAT djWHEAT I love it when people get angry that I don't answer their emails or calls, and then surprised when they find out I work full-time. :/ 3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply copy pasta from twitter <3 Dude, he can't work full time.. look at my argument. How is it possible? People are married, have kids, and work full time. Factor in video games, and you suddenly only have time to work 1/4th of the time? I dunno whether he does work full time or not, but it certainly wouldn't be too unreasonable.
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I've read the whole thread and have nothing more to bring to the discussion. I just wanted to point out that I wholeheartedly agree with TotalBiscuit, eventhough I like the rest of us casual mortals dont have the full details on how this works.
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Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way.
It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making.
http://www.myu2b.com/
Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty huge ~$200,000 a year salary.
Note: I'm not saying he's earning "too much" nor do I care what he makes. Honestly, if I'd been smart enough to get on the SC2 casting game in beta I'd be doing the exact same thing he is.
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DJ wheat works a full time job unrelated to video games. The man is a machine and does what he does for esports because he loves it.
Also incontrol knows hes not rolling in stacks, dude a couple posts above got trolled
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On January 20 2011 07:38 iNcontroL wrote: This is ridiculous..
Casters tirelessly sit in their house and commentate for a solid 15~30 fucking minutes A DAY on games that are extremely hard to describe. They painfully tax their brain to understanding something that would normally take years to master..
Lets not mention the top tier casters? Day9 almost weekly removes himself from the comforts of his own home to fly to scary, distant lands where he has never been and see people he has never met JUST TO COMMENTATE FOR YOU. Does he do it for the money? Sure. Does he do it for the experience? I guess. But mostly he does it because he is brave.
Tasteless and Artosis banished themselves from their home country.. left behind women, fame, money.. their mothers.. and are now living in isolation. FORCED to wear stupid jackets and sit in a high place while describing GSL games. You wonder why Tasteless is sick all the time? And you have the audacity to call to question a man as heroic as he making money commentating?
Dude, why so angry man. Casters are integral to eSports. Like what many have noted, players like yourself benefit from their work just as they benefit from the contents that progamers produce.
Especially in the west, eSports are not a part of mainstream culture. We won't be seeing televised matches between you and Idra on ESPN2 for a long time to come. So these alternative channels to reach out to the masses and generate interest are important to the growth of eSports. Besides, I thought you wanted to get a casting gig yourself.
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On January 20 2011 08:08 EdSlyB wrote: I don't know and I don't care about how much a caster makes casting in YouTube. If the product that they create has high quality I don't see any problem in them making money of it.
I think here is where a lot of the problem lies. All the casters who are only youtube are less than casters and more so money mongers. They trade off quality for quantity and it hurts the scene overall. The current 'mainstream' casters on youtube have little to no idea what is actually going on in a replay they cast and often mud sling toward the players they are casting out of obvious spite.
This is not a quality product and it hurts the scene more than it helps.
Just remember if some casters are indeed receiving money for a 'poor' product it's all OUR fault because it was all of us that put them up there. WE empowered them. So stop bitching about it.
The only casters 'I' have placed anywhere is currently artosis and day9 and I have no complaints. They are not only professional but provide quality content which also includes quantity. (hour long dailies anyone?)
The only thing that really troubles me in this problem is that Day9 ONLY has around 110.000ish subs and he deserves much much more.
Yeah, this is one thing I cant agree more with. Sean is such a staple in the SC2 community and the people on this are not fully supporting him for bringing them, hour long dailies, fun ladder minigames, blizzcon, KoB, IEM, MLGx4(?), dreamhack, in the most easiest and cheapest way, by hitting a sub button.
Big props tho to those guys who helped Sean with his last semester of college, this is one beacon of hope for quality sc2 casters to still be present even if they are at times taking back seat to quantity casters.
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sure, entertainers make a crapload of money compared to their effort. maybe that isn't fair, but compared to shitty popstars, who make ridiculous amounts of money, HD and Husky help to grow the scene. why don't you start a thread about bank managers getting 50 million dollar boni, instead of whining about this. seriously, don't we have bigger problems?
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My mind is blown by people failing to see the sarcasm and paraody in Incontrol's posts....
On January 20 2011 08:24 rzys wrote: sure, entertainers make a crapload of money compared to their effort. maybe that isn't fair, but compared to shitty popstars, who make ridiculous amounts of money, HD and Husky help to grow the scene. why don't you start a thread about bank managers getting 50 million dollar boni, instead of whining about this. seriously, don't we have bigger problems?
Yes, but those posts belong in the 'General forum', not the 'Sc2 General forum' 8---)???
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On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto, one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on. It's interesting as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary.
I'm going to choose not to trust this, but if it is true, husky should be making more than $550 a day commentating Starcraft if RWJ can make $2.5k every day by commentating other people's youtube videos T_T
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On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto, one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on. It's interesting as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. Keep in mind that daily gross in my2ub earning potential, I think many people, myself included see numbers and are so tempted to jump to the conclusion that that person makes $X or $Y.
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On January 20 2011 08:25 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto, one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on. It's interesting as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. I'm going to choose not to trust this, but if it is true, husky should be making more than $550 a day commentating Starcraft if RWJ can make $2.5k every day by commentating other people's youtube videos T_T That's a product of their respective popularity. Husky gets a lot of viewers, but RWJ absolutely overshadows that.
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I've never read anything about the kind of compensation that Tasteless and Artosis get, let alone Husky or Day[9]. What kind of money are we talking here? Does anyone have good sources?
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On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto, one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on. It's interesting as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary.
I think that site is close to accurate. He does get 500k views each day.
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On January 20 2011 08:27 s_side wrote: I've never read anything about the kind of compensation that Tasteless and Artosis get, let alone Husky or Day[9]. What kind of money are we talking here? Does anyone have good sources?
Unless you work for a public company / corporation (the U.S. Government, a public school), your salary is not disclosed to the public. If you work privately, your salary is your privacy; it is your choice to tell anybody of it. I can find out right now how much my high school teachers make- it is of law to release that information to the public, since our tax dollars pay their salary. That is not the case for private companies / corporations (Husky, Day9).
So no, nobody has good sources. No matter what you hear. Unless they are related to Husky or Day9.
Edit: That link is a gross estimation. We can maybe estimate it, but that is wildly different than a "good source". Keep that in mind.
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this happens with all sports.. and nearly any event that has spectators. its nothing new.
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I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit.
User was temp banned for this post.
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After reading key posts from people that have anything valid to say, in response to people that just needed to not post to begin with, i can see that the people in the know(incontrol, Tb etc) are just repeating themselves for complete morons who can't comprehend whats going on and just want something to complain about.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors
Was pretty accurate for on the fly remark. TB in his god-like knowledge (comes from being born across the pond as a birth rite) is correct. Players don't get their name out if no one is watching them, casters don't get their name out if people aren't playing, sponsors are not getting money if no one is winning events that are not happening because no one cares or is watching videos, and viewers just need to shut the hell up and go along with it all. Who cares about the money aspect? How much TB, Husky, HD, Day9 make? Who cares about knowing a TL/EG/Root's player salary? You're wasting your time questioning and causing strife instead of just supporting it, and if you don't support it then gtfo. Go question your <insert local politician> or celebrity or something. As evil as incontrol may apparently be to you people who can't understand things, he is still more pure than any of the just previously mentioned assholes.
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everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X
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Calgary25938 Posts
The problem here is that being good at something isn't the same as being the most worthy of money, despite people's good intentions. Good players need to whore themselves out for endorsements, sponsorship, and coaching to make money. Even things like premium streams and selling replays may become ways to make money. Being good at Starcraft doesn't suddenly make you money.
The same is true about commentators. Just being a good commentator doesn't get you money, it takes a certain amount of public relations and business development to start making money. If you want to commentate full time, actual commentating skill is the least important of the three skills (commentating, PR, BD).
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On January 20 2011 08:30 gulati wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:27 s_side wrote: I've never read anything about the kind of compensation that Tasteless and Artosis get, let alone Husky or Day[9]. What kind of money are we talking here? Does anyone have good sources? Unless you work for a public company / corporation (the U.S. Government, a public school), your salary is not disclosed to the public. If you work privately, your salary is your privacy; it is your choice to tell anybody of it. I can find out right now how much my high school teachers make- it is of law to release that information to the public, since our tax dollars pay their salary. That is not the case for private companies / corporations (Husky, Day9). So no, nobody has good sources. No matter what you hear. Unless they are related to Husky or Day9. Edit: That link is a gross estimation. We can maybe estimate it, but that is wildly different than a "good source". Keep that in mind. The information has to at least be ballpark accurate as it does have the actual statistics of comments, views, thumbs up, etc. and it's made by a well-established YT partner (his wikipedia page is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett).
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On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit.
tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase.
And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion.
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On January 20 2011 06:07 Erandorr wrote: Now an other aspect is , of course , that a lot of people watch games because a certain caster commentates them , so you might argue that the casters become more important than the players, but I at least think that they could not exist without each other. Games without casters are boring and casters without games .. well that wouldnt really work would it?
I think it is a possibility that you might be correct. This is one of those things the general TLer does not come up with I think, wow.I think you hit the nail right on the head, please keep such intelligent threats coming.
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On January 20 2011 08:34 noD wrote: everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X
I giggle when people think casters are somehow evil corporations. Look at Sean's poor chipped tooth and his taped glasses that he had forever. You really think he is rolling around in fat stacks? Hahaha...
Wake up people. Nobody is making money by sitting on their asses doing nothing. If one thing I have learned in life, it is that money doesn't grow on trees. (And for the assholes who will try to say "money = paper, so yes it does"... no. Money is made of linen and cotton, you failure.) You have to work hard for what you make. If you are making money, you are doing something that requires work. Lets just hope it is not illegal.
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I have a machinima contract, i know for a fact that you cant really make much money off it. theyre not rich by any means.
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On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary.
Obscene ? Compared to what ?
Grow up. This is an extreme niche job - that involves a lot of risk - i'm saying good for him if it pays off. Would you focus on casting ? - you would if it netted you 100k wouldn't you ? but he didn't have this guarantee and neither do you if you start now... he did a risky thing, was there at the right moment and its fortunately worked out ok.
Also i really doubt those figures - terms and conditions for partners aren't that linear.
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On January 20 2011 08:44 stinger_ro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. Grow up. This is an extreme niche job - that involves a lot of risk - i'm saying good for him if it pays off. Would you focus on casting ? - you would if it netted you 100k wouldn't you ? but he didn't have this guarantee and neither do you if you start now... he did a risky thing, was there at the right moment and its fortunately worked out ok.
Yes... sitting down at your computer for an hour a day to cast a game and upload the video to youtube has sooooo much risk involved. Like... omg... Anybody that does that is so brave. If nobody watched their videos they'd be living on the streets begging for money. Such brave souls it's a good thing blizzard came out with SC2 so that they didn't have to be beggars on the streets!
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On January 20 2011 08:44 stinger_ro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. Grow up. This is an extreme niche job - that involves a lot of risk - i'm saying good for him if it pays off. Would you focus on casting ? - you would if it netted you 100k wouldn't you ? but he didn't have this guarantee and neither do you if you start now... he did a risky thing, was there at the right moment and its fortunately worked out ok. Also i really doubt those figures - terms and conditions for partners aren't that linear. Sorry if it seemed like I was taking a stance. I'm not. I never said he doesn't deserve the compensation and just wanted to share the information. And yes, the figures may not be 100% accurate but the point is if the estimation is at $200k, it's pretty much guaranteed he's making at least half that -- $100k.
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I am going to bookmark this thread to post in any other thread that asks why pro-gamers don't post as often in the forums. Holy shit I really don't know where to begin, I really doubt why I even read theses topics anymore.
I get the feeling that everyone is a bit butt sore because there are people in the world making a living off talking about Starcraft, and they think they can "do it better".
And to stay and topic and to answer the OP's topic: Maybe in a perfect world progamers could earn a bit more by releasing their replies, but eSports has always grown and will continue to grow off the pure generosity (can't think of a better word) of its community members and its content providers. And anytime you throw more many it shit it gets more complicated, lets not spoil what we have right now.
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On January 20 2011 08:45 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:44 stinger_ro wrote:On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. Grow up. This is an extreme niche job - that involves a lot of risk - i'm saying good for him if it pays off. Would you focus on casting ? - you would if it netted you 100k wouldn't you ? but he didn't have this guarantee and neither do you if you start now... he did a risky thing, was there at the right moment and its fortunately worked out ok. Yes... sitting down at your computer for an hour a day to cast a game and upload the video to youtube has sooooo much risk involved. Like... omg... Anybody that does that is so brave. If nobody watched their videos they'd be living on the streets begging for money. Such brave souls it's a good thing blizzard came out with SC2 so that they didn't have to be beggars on the streets!
Yes but people do watch them ... what does Oprah do then ? this - i could do that mentality is really infantile.
Risk is in planning your future and education and commiting time to something. Its easy to commit to an industry / job that has hundreds or thousands of oportunities and actual demand. Its hard to do what they do on purpose - i'm not saying its difficult TO DO - i'm saying you can't get where they are on purpose - and also if it should fail - options are rather limited.
And hell yes it takes balls. Progamers have it just as rough .. commit to SC2 ? what if the scene fails ? at least they can feel safe in the thought that they do something skillbased. Reaching HD & Husky level is not purely mechanical skill based. Its about having "it" and having "it" at the right time and maintaining "it". Don't believe me - there are hundreds of good actors and bands that are all washed up.
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reminds of the gold rush in california back in 1949.
everyone rushed in to get rich finding gold (players) but the real winner was the man(casters) selling shovels and other equipments for many times the regular price because it was high in demand.
i see no problem.
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On January 20 2011 08:43 gulati wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:34 noD wrote: everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X I giggle when people think casters are somehow evil corporations. Look at Sean's poor chipped tooth and his taped glasses that he had forever. You really think he is rolling around in fat stacks? Hahaha... Wake up people. Nobody is making money by sitting on their asses doing nothing. If one thing I have learned in life, it is that money doesn't grow on trees. (And for the assholes who will try to say "money = paper, so yes it does"... no. Money is made of linen and cotton, you failure.) You have to work hard for what you make. If you are making money, you are doing something that requires work. Lets just hope it is not illegal.
I dont know how the college situation works in the USA - but in terms of SC2 I am 99% sure day9 could make several fold his current income from the game if he had the time and inclination. The fact that he isn't is most likely an expression of his view on life, work-load or comfort with his situation, I would have thought.
But surely you counter your own argument?
Casters ARE making money by sitting on their asses? They get replays for free and with minimal effort (visit a replay site, hit download on a big name) and spend about 20-30 minutes recording commentary, editing, and uploading - and get potentially several thousand dollars?
In what way do they have to work hard to make money?
On January 20 2011 08:51 jinorazi wrote: reminds of the gold rush in california back in 1949.
everyone rushed in to get rich finding gold (players) but the real winner was the man(casters) selling shovels and other equipments for many times the regular price because it was high in demand.
i see no problem.
Surely it was the guys who bought the best land. Eternal riches just for being there first :p
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On January 20 2011 08:44 stinger_ro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. Obscene ? Compared to what ? Grow up. This is an extreme niche job - that involves a lot of risk - i'm saying good for him if it pays off. Would you focus on casting ? - you would if it netted you 100k wouldn't you ? but he didn't have this guarantee and neither do you if you start now... he did a risky thing, was there at the right moment and its fortunately worked out ok. Also i really doubt those figures - terms and conditions for partners aren't that linear.
I totally beleive that figure. In fact, I think it's a little low. They have millions and millions of monthly views. The sky is the limit when it comes to internet marketing, which is basically what HD, Husky, and others are doing. People easily rake in $1k+ a day with much less traffic, so $550/day isn't high at all.
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One last point I am going to make is this:
What was the dispute and drama when Radio ITG casted Team 3D games? Did people complain when HLTV views had 15,000 viewers live for 3D vs SK, and Radio ITG / Corey Dunn of TSG was making more money from his commentary of international CPL / WSVG / WCG than the $10,000 divided by 5 players for $2,000 each, and then once again divided by 2 per player for Torbull's management fees? No. He did not owe anything to Method, Rambo, Ksharp, Moto, etc. He had his profession. They had their profession. They respected each other, and never dipped into each others pockets.
Understand esports before you generalize stuff. Esports is way bigger than this elitist SC2 bubble that is going on right now. Be respectful of your surroundings. They are more important than any of us.
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On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion.
'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet.
Did I miss anything out?
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On January 20 2011 08:35 Chill wrote: The problem here is that being good at something isn't the same as being the most worthy of money, despite people's good intentions. Good players need to whore themselves out for endorsements, sponsorship, and coaching to make money. Even things like premium streams and selling replays may become ways to make money. Being good at Starcraft doesn't suddenly make you money.
The same is true about commentators. Just being a good commentator doesn't get you money, it takes a certain amount of public relations and business development to start making money. If you want to commentate full time, actual commentating skill is the least important of the three skills (commentating, PR, BD). Thank you that was the point i was trying to make with my ill phrased OP . In a perfect world there would be an easy way to reward the players, but you obviously cant force casters to share the money they make. Some of them are not as succesful as Husky and might need every cent they get but the same goes for the less succesful progamers. An interesting idea that Day9 started for exactly one week was his mini tournament where he gave back some of the money he made .. for exactly one week but i think that might be actually not a bad idea. How about a weekly tournament by Huskyor HD where they give some of their own money back to the community?
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On January 20 2011 08:22 Warlike Prince wrote: DJ wheat works a full time job unrelated to video games. The man is a machine and does what he does for esports because he loves it.
Also incontrol knows hes not rolling in stacks, dude a couple posts above got trolled Are you kidding me? iNcontrol was not being sarcastic at all this thread. Maybe you should go reread his posts.
+ Show Spoiler +Look at that face. Look into those eyes. Look deeper. If seriousness was a person that would be it.
On January 20 2011 08:07 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:55 Geovu wrote:On January 20 2011 07:47 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On January 20 2011 07:29 iNcontroL wrote: It isn't like casters don't make this community better?
HD/Husky helped give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of newbs that complained about 2v2/3v3 balance. Without them we'd have flux vanes. You guys remember the horrible era of flux vanes? With flux vanes we wouldn't have Jinro's mech vs. Protoss, I reckon. I'm sure as a toss this has you pissed, but I don't like void rays seeming to make carriers superfluous and this seems to have helped with that. Yes because with Flux Vanes Void Rays would absolutely dominate vikings and anything else you could throw at them. God those stacked up, 0 armor, sub 300 HP monsters destroy everything. Thor AoE, marine DPS vs unarmored targets, yamato blasts, and not to mention 9 range kiting machines that are vikings could do NOTHING to stop the Void Ray. THANK GOD that now they move as fast as a hydra off creep, no matter what you invest into them, so that now 1 viking can defeat infinity void rays, before they were just SO IMBA. Terran could do nothing to stop them before, at least now they have a complete counter available for the fair one time price of 150 minerals and 75 gas. [void ray blablabla snip] This is all irrelevant anyway, there's no reason for people to be so condescending to players of 2v2 and 3v3 and if Husky and HD helped those players get the game fixed, major kudos to those guys. No one has contested that it helped the game for 2v2 and 3v3. If it broke 1v1, we should be talking about what changes Blizzard should have made to fix 2v2 and 3v3 without breaking 1v1. We should not be blaming Husky and HD for pointing out a problem and having Blizzard make the wrong response. Yes I definitely want my 1v1 experience balanced upon what the tens of thousands bronze team league noobs are QQing over the most. You know, since void ray speed is specifically what makes them so broken (and not something silly like their charged up attack) and is gotten 100% of every team game where a toss masses void rays.
Stopping the sarcasm for a moment, I'd like to state that mass muta is a hundred times more difficult to deal with in team games. Since my opinion is worth at least 1 million or so bronze noob opinions, I reckon blizzard will nerf their movement speed, make them classified as armored and get rid of their splash glaive attack by the next patch.
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But where is Blizzard in all this? Husky etc. are earning money from a blizzard product and I heard they don't like that.
Fucking sue Husky for IP violation.
+ Show Spoiler +And deny how much more money Blizzard themselves has made from Husky. ^^ + Show Spoiler + And realize that I actually don't care about husky in this matter.
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On January 20 2011 08:52 prochobo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:44 stinger_ro wrote:On January 20 2011 08:21 hmunkey wrote:Ok so I found out about this on Reddit today and while I can't 100% vouch for its accuracy, it should shed some light on how much YouTube partners make, at least in a rough way. It was created by Renetto (here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robinett), one of the first YouTube partners back when YT was experimenting with the program and it shows how much money each partner should be making. http://www.myu2b.com/Keep in mind it may not be fully accurate, but regardless it's better than all the random guessing going on and it's as close as we'll ever get because of YT's strict NDA policies. It is interesting however as it shows Husky making over $550 a day on average, which is a pretty obscene ~$200,000 a year salary. Obscene ? Compared to what ? Grow up. This is an extreme niche job - that involves a lot of risk - i'm saying good for him if it pays off. Would you focus on casting ? - you would if it netted you 100k wouldn't you ? but he didn't have this guarantee and neither do you if you start now... he did a risky thing, was there at the right moment and its fortunately worked out ok. Also i really doubt those figures - terms and conditions for partners aren't that linear. I totally beleive that figure. In fact, I think it's a little low. They have millions and millions of monthly views. The sky is the limit when it comes to internet marketing, which is basically what HD, Husky, and others are doing. People easily rake in $1k+ a day with much less traffic, so $550/day isn't high at all.
Right but these people monetize much much better than Google Adsense does. I assume you're talking about Internet marketing sites.
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On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out?
Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything?
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On January 20 2011 06:10 TotalBiscuit wrote: Oh this will end well.
A fairly massive thing you've failed to take into consideration is that without casters, you literally have no professional eSports. Sponsors will not pay a cent for something that isn't going to get publicised. It's not just 'oh the games would be boring without casters', it is the 'oh, nobody is getting paid because the sponsors can't get their brand out there because we don't have any prominent casters'.
There are 4 vital elements to eSports and without even one of those, eSports doesn't work. Looks something like this.
Players <> Casters <> Viewers <> Sponsors
Take one of those out of the equation and you have no professional eSports. Probably best not to fuck with an element of it on that basis.
Consider this. In eSports, a 'caster' such as say, Husky, is not merely a commentator, he is an entirely television network in and of himself. If you're talking about 'buying the rights' to a series or tournament, then this already happens, though it's usually through a beneficial arrangement to all 4 elements of that equation. The caster uses his prominence and audience to bargain with the sponsors, to secure money for the players. He does not take money from the prizepool for himself (unless he is a complete dick and I really hope this doesn't happen), he is compensated via the ad revenue that his channel generates (and could easily generate from something that isn't Starcraft if need be). The players get paid, the sponsors get their brand recognition, the caster is compensated and the viewers get their entertainment without paying a dime.
I couldn't possibly not be biased on this subject, but I would like to think people wouldn't want to mess with that system, lest it fall apart and benefit no-one at all.
listen to the man. he speaks the truth, nothing to add.
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Ohh, now we know the real reason incontrol is trying to get his name out as a caster. The important thing isn't that he's good at it, or ridiculously entertaining - it's the easy $$
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On January 20 2011 06:14 CrazyCow wrote: YouTube partnership doesn't really give that much money, contrary to popular belief. I'd be surprised if HD and Husky were breaking $20k/year. Compare that with IdrA's salary.
According to Myu2b.com he makes ~$500 a day (well he made $568 in the past 24 hours) which would be $150k a year assuming he made that much every day. Of course that is trusting in the system of MyU2B that calculates the money, because I'm pretty sure it isn't a direct affiliate with Google so all the numbers are estimates.
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Casters ARE making money by sitting on their asses? They get replays for free and with minimal effort (visit a replay site, hit download on a big name) and spend about 20-30 minutes recording commentary, editing, and uploading - and get potentially several thousand dollars?
In what way do they have to work hard to make money?
Just because its easy doesn't mean anyone can do it. Go ahead try - let me know when you hit the 300k subscriber mark. And when you get to a measly 5k let me know if you feel its been worth it: time, effort & feedback.
Its not a gold rush - its a land grab.
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On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything?
I love it when any thread on this site mentions HD or Husky in a negative light because you damn well know within minutes TotalBiscut will be here telling everyone how HDH are the greatest humans known to man, save children in their spare time, and will cure every disease on the planet. I just read all his posts in my head as if he was casting it with his super epic voice and it's pretty fun !
I personally think that there is a nice synergy and without these casters promoting the players. I also don't know any caster that is capable of currently making up to $87,000 a month like a pro player.....
I think there is plenty of undiscovered and discovered ways for pro gamers to make extra $. I don't think replays is a good one however.
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This thread is made of dissapoint - its seriously made me think less of the people on TL (not all) - half the things expressed are hateful and full of childish gealousy.
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On January 20 2011 08:54 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:35 Chill wrote: The problem here is that being good at something isn't the same as being the most worthy of money, despite people's good intentions. Good players need to whore themselves out for endorsements, sponsorship, and coaching to make money. Even things like premium streams and selling replays may become ways to make money. Being good at Starcraft doesn't suddenly make you money.
The same is true about commentators. Just being a good commentator doesn't get you money, it takes a certain amount of public relations and business development to start making money. If you want to commentate full time, actual commentating skill is the least important of the three skills (commentating, PR, BD). Thank you that was the point i was trying to make with my ill phrased OP . In a perfect world there would be an easy way to reward the players, but you obviously cant force casters to share the money they make. Some of them are not as succesful as Husky and might need every cent they get but the same goes for the less succesful progamers. An interesting idea that Day9 started for exactly one week was his mini tournament where he gave back some of the money he made .. for exactly one week but i think that might be actually not a bad idea. How about a weekly tournament by Huskyor HD where they give some of their own money back to the community?
Its getting a bit ridiculous where people are trying to say Day9 in every argument they make just to prove a point. He's a great guy but people really need to grow their own opinions.
In the SC community no one is entitled to anything, and things have grown basically on freebies from great content creators who basically gave everything to the community for free. Now obviously the community wants this shit for free because they're not used to paying for it, but say you're a caster and all of a sudden you're getting sponsored and getting money and now its your job.
No one can blame this caster if he decides to keep all his money. Its like saying "Oh shit I got paid by my job but my boss is so good to me he deserves some of it back because he gave me some pencils this week." In no holy starcraft bible does it say a caster has to give back to the community just because they feel they're entitled to it. It'd be great if they did, but it doesn't always work that way.
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Yeah it's unfortunate that in E-Sport the Progamer, dedicates the most time, the hardest work, and gets payed the least.
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On January 20 2011 08:57 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 06:14 CrazyCow wrote: YouTube partnership doesn't really give that much money, contrary to popular belief. I'd be surprised if HD and Husky were breaking $20k/year. Compare that with IdrA's salary. According to Myu2b.com he makes ~$500 a day (well he made $568 in the past 24 hours) which would be $150k a year assuming he made that much every day. Of course that is trusting in the system of MyU2B that calculates the money, because I'm pretty sure it isn't a direct affiliate with Google so all the numbers are estimates.
I'm pretty damn sure it only works for channels that grannies view. actually most of people that does watch sc2 probably use ad block all the time and dont click in anything at all ....
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On January 20 2011 09:02 NearPerfection wrote: Yeah it's unfortunate that in E-Sport the Progamer, dedicates the most time, the hardest work, and gets payed the least.
Every try getting a PhD in science?
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On January 20 2011 08:52 resilve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:43 gulati wrote:On January 20 2011 08:34 noD wrote: everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X I giggle when people think casters are somehow evil corporations. Look at Sean's poor chipped tooth and his taped glasses that he had forever. You really think he is rolling around in fat stacks? Hahaha... Wake up people. Nobody is making money by sitting on their asses doing nothing. If one thing I have learned in life, it is that money doesn't grow on trees. (And for the assholes who will try to say "money = paper, so yes it does"... no. Money is made of linen and cotton, you failure.) You have to work hard for what you make. If you are making money, you are doing something that requires work. Lets just hope it is not illegal. I dont know how the college situation works in the USA - but in terms of SC2 I am 99% sure day9 could make several fold his current income from the game if he had the time and inclination. The fact that he isn't is most likely an expression of his view on life, work-load or comfort with his situation, I would have thought. But surely you counter your own argument? Casters ARE making money by sitting on their asses? They get replays for free and with minimal effort (visit a replay site, hit download on a big name) and spend about 20-30 minutes recording commentary, editing, and uploading - and get potentially several thousand dollars? In what way do they have to work hard to make money?
Casting requires work. We are not speaking about the science defintion of work, meaning the amount of joules of output blah blah blah. We are speaking of the layman's term definition of work. Casting is difficult; it requires certain talents and skills that not any average joe can do. Lets see you face the pressure of having 9,000 live viewers listening to your every breath each night for an hour. I assure you that you would be on the verge of a panic attack. (I know for god damn sure I would, and I am not afraid to admit it).
So no, you are wrong. They are doing work. The replays are free because players choose to upload them for free. And "potentially several thousand dollars"- go ahead and tell any commentator to publicly state how much they make per replay. I will bow down to you if it's even close to a thousand. You are living in a fantasy world.
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I dont believe that the actual replays themselves constitute as intellectual property. The casts however definitely are.
I'm only assuming this because this is how it is in chess. In chess individual games from a player are not considered intellectual property; however, content produced about a game is. (either in books, videos, magazines, ect...)
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The same is true about commentators. Just being a good commentator doesn't get you money, it takes a certain amount of public relations and business development to start making money. If you want to commentate full time, actual commentating skill is the least important of the three skills (commentating, PR, BD).
THIS.
i'd just like to add that .. a good commentator is indeed all that not just one part. in society pure skill will only get you so far if you are a dick.
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Is it news that different professions doesn't pay in proportion to effort and importance? If this is a problem to you, you need to go to a communist country, because this is what capitalism is. Supply and demand dictates all profits, not time spent.
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i'm sure idra could take the time to put videos up on youtube and 200k people would watch it too ;D
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On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything?
Gotta love when people claim they want to start a "discussion" when in reality they just want others to agree so they feel like they're right.
It's hard to discuss an issue with someone when they refuse to listen to you and bash you instead. TB came into this discussion and shared his point of view. You have no right to belittle him for that.
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Some people deserve making money off casting replays because they're good at it.
Then there are people who don't deserve that, because they are terrible.
But that doesn't mean that great casters will make money and vice versa. The world is not fair, oh no, how shameful.
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On January 20 2011 09:03 gulati wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:52 resilve wrote:On January 20 2011 08:43 gulati wrote:On January 20 2011 08:34 noD wrote: everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X I giggle when people think casters are somehow evil corporations. Look at Sean's poor chipped tooth and his taped glasses that he had forever. You really think he is rolling around in fat stacks? Hahaha... Wake up people. Nobody is making money by sitting on their asses doing nothing. If one thing I have learned in life, it is that money doesn't grow on trees. (And for the assholes who will try to say "money = paper, so yes it does"... no. Money is made of linen and cotton, you failure.) You have to work hard for what you make. If you are making money, you are doing something that requires work. Lets just hope it is not illegal. I dont know how the college situation works in the USA - but in terms of SC2 I am 99% sure day9 could make several fold his current income from the game if he had the time and inclination. The fact that he isn't is most likely an expression of his view on life, work-load or comfort with his situation, I would have thought. But surely you counter your own argument? Casters ARE making money by sitting on their asses? They get replays for free and with minimal effort (visit a replay site, hit download on a big name) and spend about 20-30 minutes recording commentary, editing, and uploading - and get potentially several thousand dollars? In what way do they have to work hard to make money? Casting requires work. We are not speaking about the science defintion of work, meaning the amount of joules of output blah blah blah. We are speaking of the layman's term definition of work. Casting is difficult; it requires certain talents and skills that not any average joe can do. Lets see you face the pressure of having 9,000 live viewers listening to your every breath each night for an hour. I assure you that you would be on the verge of a panic attack. (I know for god damn sure I would, and I am not afraid to admit it). So no, you are wrong. They are doing work. The replays are free because players choose to upload them for free. And "potentially several thousand dollars"- go ahead and tell any commentator to publicly state how much they make per replay. I will bow down to you if it's even close to a thousand. You are living in a fantasy world.
I don't think its an issue if they "deserve" the money or not because what they do is constituted as "work". There's already money flowing their way - if you were a caster and you found out you could sustain your own life by doing what you love wouldn't you keep the money?
I can think of a few more jobs imo that don't deserve as much money, and I can think of a few jobs with very hardworking people who get pittance.
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IMO the players should get something in return besides prize money.
random idea: something nice would be a fund made by casters and tournaments that supports players and teams in some way. if theres enough money then they can pay for travels/food/hotels of the players. but I really dont know if something like that can work.
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On January 20 2011 09:04 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything? Gotta love when people claim they want to start a "discussion" when in reality they just want others to agree so they feel like they're right. It's hard to discuss an issue with someone when they refuse to listen to you and bash you instead. TB came into this discussion and shared his point of view. You have no right to belittle him for that.
There's nothing to discuss. Unless you are 15 and can't see past the .. they don't deserve it because its easy to do and i find them unlikeable.
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I think it's not fair that Google makes money then almost any other site in the internet. Every site should charge Google for indexing them!
Look, I just learned to use your logic.
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On January 20 2011 09:00 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything? I love it when any thread on this site mentions HD or Husky in a negative light because you damn well know within minutes TotalBiscut will be here telling everyone how HDH are the greatest humans known to man, save children in their spare time, and will cure every disease on the planet. I just read all his posts in my head as if he was casting it with his super epic voice and it's pretty fun ! I personally think that there is a nice synergy and without these casters promoting the players. I also don't know any caster that is capable of currently making up to $87,000 a month like a pro player..... I think there is plenty of undiscovered and discovered ways for pro gamers to make extra $. I don't think replays is a good one however.
You know honestly if it was Tastless/artosis/day9/djwheat/raelcun/diggity making this kind of money I wouldn't mind. But when it's people like HD/Husky/TB, who are complete dicks and act like they don't care about the community other than the fact that they use them to make money and do their bidding, get to make all this money from doing almost nothing with a youtube channel. With Tasteless/artosis/day9/djwheat and those guys I really get a sense that they love the game and love the community and they are doing it because they love the game, if they got paid half as much they'd still be doing it in their free time. In fact, Day9 and DJWheat ARE doing it in their free time, and you know it's because they love esports and love SC2. When TB comes in here acting like a dick just because people start talking about him giving 5% of his SC2 casting income to the players he's casting it just shows me that he's in it for the money.
User was warned for this post
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United States5162 Posts
On January 20 2011 09:07 stinger_ro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:04 Backpack wrote:On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything? Gotta love when people claim they want to start a "discussion" when in reality they just want others to agree so they feel like they're right. It's hard to discuss an issue with someone when they refuse to listen to you and bash you instead. TB came into this discussion and shared his point of view. You have no right to belittle him for that. There's nothing to discuss. Unless you are 15 and can't see past the .. they don't deserve it because its easy to do and i find them unlikeable.
That's awesome. It's too bad not everyone shares your opinion. It doesn't matter if you think they're crap, a lot of other people disagree and that's why they get money. I think McDonalds is crap food, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be where it is because clearly a lot of people are satisfied with it.
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People making money off youtube doesn't bother me too much, though I don't really get how some people gain popularity (just the general youtube personalities, not sc2 or even gaming related in general, none of them are entertaining to me except maybe the autotune the news stuff sometimes)
There's a difference between doing some wow videos and SC2, because generally you are casting high level players who have put way more hours into being good at SC2 than you have (whoever you are) at being good at casting games. And in some cases you're downright terrible at it and know fuck all about the game.
I can completely understand if it doesn't sit well with people when that goes on. But it's not their fault and I don't blame them or something. It does bother me a bit, but what bothers me more is when they have the audacity to inform us how they are such vital cogs in the ESPORTS machine while tons of players slave away for nothing.
The fact is you can't make much money playing SC2. The very best will make decent bank, but even the 2nd best may as well go do something else. Guys like Incontrol will make way more money coaching than he ever will playing, and for every Inc who makes money coaching there's guy who can be even better than him and not even get coaching money because they focus more on playing.
That I think is really unfortunate. Not that there's tons of casters making bank doing SC2 but still, to me it does nothing for the validity of ESPORTS as a profession
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IMO the players should get something in return besides prize money Yeah, if only big name teams paid the salary to their players...
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Players actually NEED casters to continue what they are doing because that is what will actually get them higher salaries.
In short, more viewers = higher salaries.
It is VERY short sighted to insult casters for doing what they are doing because, in fact, without people like Tasteless and Artosis and DJwheat, the game could never grow and all that does is hurt everyone.
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What happened to Moderation on TL wtf.
Why are all the trolls allowed to derail the thread and do nothing but slag on the casters. TL is becoming a circus seriously. This thread is detrimental to everyone involved.
How is this thread providing constructive ideas on helping esports grow? It doesn't, it's just trying to alienate as much people as possible.
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On January 20 2011 09:08 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:00 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything? I love it when any thread on this site mentions HD or Husky in a negative light because you damn well know within minutes TotalBiscut will be here telling everyone how HDH are the greatest humans known to man, save children in their spare time, and will cure every disease on the planet. I just read all his posts in my head as if he was casting it with his super epic voice and it's pretty fun ! I personally think that there is a nice synergy and without these casters promoting the players. I also don't know any caster that is capable of currently making up to $87,000 a month like a pro player..... I think there is plenty of undiscovered and discovered ways for pro gamers to make extra $. I don't think replays is a good one however. You know honestly if it was Tastless/artosis/day9/djwheat/raelcun/diggity making this kind of money I wouldn't mind. But when it's people like HD/Husky/TB, who are complete dicks and act like they don't care about the community other than the fact that they use them to make money and do their bidding, get to make all this money from doing almost nothing with a youtube channel. With Tasteless/artosis/day9/djwheat and those guys I really get a sense that they love the game and love the community and they are doing it because they love the game, if they got paid half as much they'd still be doing it in their free time. In fact, Day9 and DJWheat ARE doing it in their free time, and you know it's because they love esports and love SC2. When TB comes in here acting like a dick just because people start talking about him giving 5% of his SC2 casting income to the players he's casting it just shows me that he's in it for the money.
Style is not an issue here.
How are they not helping the community - they are making it grow - and are doing so better and faster then others - hence more money for them ?
How are they dicks - i see no arguments or examples ?
HD and Husky led me to TL - then i discovered day9 and the GSL. Greatest service they could ever do ... and i didnt have to pay a thing and neither do you - don't want to help them .. don't watch their casts // but don't be a dick and complain about them as if people had no right to enjoy them according to some personal high held personal standard.
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On January 20 2011 09:05 clickrush wrote: IMO the players should get something in return besides prize money.
random idea: something nice would be a fund made by casters and tournaments that supports players and teams in some way. if theres enough money then they can pay for travels/food/hotels of the players. but I really dont know if something like that can work.
Players have a salary from their team, granted it may not be much depending on the player/team. Keep in mind SC2 is still a relatively new game without an established scene like BW, so big money is not going to be involved yet (think Bisu going from MBC to SKT1 for a reported 200k)
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According to some of you, you believe commentators are making more than lawyers. (Average lawyers salary is PUBLIC information, and is $90,000/yr).
Re-read that statement, and think about life for a second. You seriously think for a second that any caster can beat that? There is a reason only a VERY select few do (if any, atleast- and I doubt anyone is actually even close, since there is no REAL sources, only estimations, which are wild at best). It's because of talent. Nobody got to the top for no reason. I praise anyone who can make a living doing this, because it is nearly impossible.
College degrees will always outshine temporary revenue fads in the long run. Mark my word.
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Oh yeah and without casters and attention being funneled towards e-sports; sponsors will give up on it since they crave attention not high apm and macro games.
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On January 20 2011 08:54 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:35 Chill wrote: The problem here is that being good at something isn't the same as being the most worthy of money, despite people's good intentions. Good players need to whore themselves out for endorsements, sponsorship, and coaching to make money. Even things like premium streams and selling replays may become ways to make money. Being good at Starcraft doesn't suddenly make you money.
The same is true about commentators. Just being a good commentator doesn't get you money, it takes a certain amount of public relations and business development to start making money. If you want to commentate full time, actual commentating skill is the least important of the three skills (commentating, PR, BD). Thank you that was the point i was trying to make with my ill phrased OP . In a perfect world there would be an easy way to reward the players, but you obviously cant force casters to share the money they make. Some of them are not as succesful as Husky and might need every cent they get but the same goes for the less succesful progamers. An interesting idea that Day9 started for exactly one week was his mini tournament where he gave back some of the money he made .. for exactly one week but i think that might be actually not a bad idea. How about a weekly tournament by Huskyor HD where they give some of their own money back to the community? I agree with caster doing tournament to help players expose but i find funny with "give some of their own money back to the community". If I'm not wrong 80% of TL members hates HD and husky and i bet they are not subscribed to their youtube channel.
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On January 20 2011 08:52 resilve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:43 gulati wrote:On January 20 2011 08:34 noD wrote: everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X I giggle when people think casters are somehow evil corporations. Look at Sean's poor chipped tooth and his taped glasses that he had forever. You really think he is rolling around in fat stacks? Hahaha... Wake up people. Nobody is making money by sitting on their asses doing nothing. If one thing I have learned in life, it is that money doesn't grow on trees. (And for the assholes who will try to say "money = paper, so yes it does"... no. Money is made of linen and cotton, you failure.) You have to work hard for what you make. If you are making money, you are doing something that requires work. Lets just hope it is not illegal. I dont know how the college situation works in the USA - but in terms of SC2 I am 99% sure day9 could make several fold his current income from the game if he had the time and inclination. The fact that he isn't is most likely an expression of his view on life, work-load or comfort with his situation, I would have thought. But surely you counter your own argument? Casters ARE making money by sitting on their asses? They get replays for free and with minimal effort (visit a replay site, hit download on a big name) and spend about 20-30 minutes recording commentary, editing, and uploading - and get potentially several thousand dollars? In what way do they have to work hard to make money?
There are a couple dozen casters on youtube. Only a select few have a million billion viewers. It takes more than just hitting download and casting for half an hour. It takes skill, knowledge, time, and commitment to retain a viewership. And that's not to mention having a huge amount of luck to be in the right place at the right time (ie with HDH and the beginning of SC2 esports).
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You know honestly if it was Tastless/artosis/day9/djwheat/raelcun/diggity making this kind of money I wouldn't mind So who is to decide who should or should not profit from commentating?
When TB comes in here acting like a dick just because people start talking about him giving 5% of his SC2 casting income to the players he's casting it just shows me that he's in it for the money. TB did sponsor a few show matches and donated to SCRI prize fund.
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On January 20 2011 08:52 resilve wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:43 gulati wrote:On January 20 2011 08:34 noD wrote: everytime u guys say about rich casters i remember day9 thanking that he fixed his glasses thanks to a donation 100 epps after they were broken and serious wonder, r they serious @ this topic ? =X I giggle when people think casters are somehow evil corporations. Look at Sean's poor chipped tooth and his taped glasses that he had forever. You really think he is rolling around in fat stacks? Hahaha... Wake up people. Nobody is making money by sitting on their asses doing nothing. If one thing I have learned in life, it is that money doesn't grow on trees. (And for the assholes who will try to say "money = paper, so yes it does"... no. Money is made of linen and cotton, you failure.) You have to work hard for what you make. If you are making money, you are doing something that requires work. Lets just hope it is not illegal. I dont know how the college situation works in the USA - but in terms of SC2 I am 99% sure day9 could make several fold his current income from the game if he had the time and inclination. The fact that he isn't is most likely an expression of his view on life, work-load or comfort with his situation, I would have thought. But surely you counter your own argument? Casters ARE making money by sitting on their asses? They get replays for free and with minimal effort (visit a replay site, hit download on a big name) and spend about 20-30 minutes recording commentary, editing, and uploading - and get potentially several thousand dollars? In what way do they have to work hard to make money? Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:51 jinorazi wrote: reminds of the gold rush in california back in 1949.
everyone rushed in to get rich finding gold (players) but the real winner was the man(casters) selling shovels and other equipments for many times the regular price because it was high in demand.
i see no problem. Surely it was the guys who bought the best land. Eternal riches just for being there first :p
that would be blizzard ^_^
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On January 20 2011 09:13 gulati wrote: According to some of you, you believe commentators are making more than lawyers. (Average lawyers salary is PUBLIC information, and is $90,000/yr).
Re-read that statement, and think about life for a second. You seriously think for a second that any caster can beat that? There is a reason only a VERY select few do (if any, atleast- and I doubt anyone is actually even close, since there is no REAL sources, only estimations, which are wild at best). It's because of talent. Nobody got to the top for no reason. I praise anyone who can make a living doing this, because it is nearly impossible.
College degrees will always outshine temporary revenue fads in the long run. Mark my word. Once again, YT partners have to sign NDAs so of course they can't publicly state how much they make. However, as the site (created by a YT partner and based on the average earnings of known YouTube partner channels) states, the best estimate for Husky's salary is ~$200,000/yr. Now of course that's not 100% accurate, but if it's even roughly close he makes at least 6 figures. And since there's absolutely no reason to believe it's wildly inaccurate as it does incorporate accurate stats and knowledge by people who earn money from YT, it seems that he makes more than lawyers.
And once again, I don't actually care that he makes that much, but I'm not going to gloss over numbers if I have them in front of me.
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As I have said earlier in the thread, I know people who can support themselves and en entire condo with mortgage and food off 100k subs.
100k+ a year is not surprising for SC2 casters.
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come on u guys dont really believe that nerds click on ads has much as grannies from bieber channels do you ? crap, most ppl I know always install ad block together with firefox/chrome, they dont even SEE ads... I never clicked on an ad ever ....
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On January 20 2011 09:08 aike wrote: You know honestly if it was Tastless/artosis/day9/djwheat/raelcun/diggity making this kind of money I wouldn't mind. But when it's people like HD/Husky/TB, who are complete dicks and act like they don't care about the community other than the fact that they use them to make money and do their bidding, get to make all this money from doing almost nothing with a youtube channel. With Tasteless/artosis/day9/djwheat and those guys I really get a sense that they love the game and love the community and they are doing it because they love the game, if they got paid half as much they'd still be doing it in their free time. In fact, Day9 and DJWheat ARE doing it in their free time, and you know it's because they love esports and love SC2. When TB comes in here acting like a dick just because people start talking about him giving 5% of his SC2 casting income to the players he's casting it just shows me that he's in it for the money.
How short some people's memories are.
'Why don't you give some of your money to the players TB?'
I did not a week or so ago? I spent today organising 3 seperate series of showmatches to put money into the hands of players, negotiating with sponsors to make sure they got the best deal. For me, it does not make good business sense to use time doing that, but I did it, because it's not just about what makes the most bank.
Little bit more reality. Starcraft 2 is my lowest grossing source of income, yet is very time-consuming. My WoW stuff, my interviews, my gaming first impressions and reviews, my DC Universe playthrough, they kick the shit out of my SC2 VoDs view-wise. Think about how retarded this is for a second. I cast some high level games and they get about 25-30k views each. I do a 6 minute video me playing Black Ops Gungame rambling about nothing in particular, it gets 90k views. I do a video of some random indie game that popped up on Steam at 3am, I get 350k views. I have WoW videos that have 1.5 million views EACH.
It is not good business sense for me to spend time doing Starcraft 2 content. I do it because I love it and I want it to grow. It does not make business sense for me to cast low-level tournaments, livestream, hell even cast the best players. It does not make good business sense to give every sponsorship I get directly to the players and not take a cut.
And once again, this could come off as holier than thou but in reality, it's just fact. I swear, you only have to look at the numbers to figure this out. It's not about business sense, it's about being passionate about something that's awesome and wanting it to get better. And guess what, passionate people can sometimes look like assholes in the process because we get caught up in the emotional side of things. Sorry about that.
I love eSports, so fuckin sue me.
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On January 20 2011 09:08 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:00 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On January 20 2011 08:55 Erandorr wrote:On January 20 2011 08:53 TotalBiscuit wrote:On January 20 2011 08:39 Plaxy wrote:On January 20 2011 08:32 debasers wrote: I just wanna add that I have no idea why people actually like DjWheat and can dislike people like TotalBiscuit. tb doesn't understand how the internet works too well so he often gets a lot of hate for it. Like his all knowing attitude, for lack of a better phrase. And especially for his comments to IdrA calling him a bad troll and claiming "leave it to people who have been doing it a long time." People should really understand the difference between trolling and voicing an opinion. 'hahahahaha' is not an opinion. I think we all know how the internet works. It's full of assholes, none of us would say this shit in real life because we'd be too afraid of being punched out and we're all ultimately impotently waving our dicks around in an effort to impress other people behind monitor screens that we'll never meet. Did I miss anything out? Well i was actually just trying to start an interesting discussion when a british caster decided to wave his dick around and actually started all this shit . Did I miss anything? I love it when any thread on this site mentions HD or Husky in a negative light because you damn well know within minutes TotalBiscut will be here telling everyone how HDH are the greatest humans known to man, save children in their spare time, and will cure every disease on the planet. I just read all his posts in my head as if he was casting it with his super epic voice and it's pretty fun ! I personally think that there is a nice synergy and without these casters promoting the players. I also don't know any caster that is capable of currently making up to $87,000 a month like a pro player..... I think there is plenty of undiscovered and discovered ways for pro gamers to make extra $. I don't think replays is a good one however. You know honestly if it was Tastless/artosis/day9/djwheat/raelcun/diggity making this kind of money I wouldn't mind. But when it's people like HD/Husky/TB, who are complete dicks and act like they don't care about the community other than the fact that they use them to make money and do their bidding, get to make all this money from doing almost nothing with a youtube channel. With Tasteless/artosis/day9/djwheat and those guys I really get a sense that they love the game and love the community and they are doing it because they love the game, if they got paid half as much they'd still be doing it in their free time. In fact, Day9 and DJWheat ARE doing it in their free time, and you know it's because they love esports and love SC2. When TB comes in here acting like a dick just because people start talking about him giving 5% of his SC2 casting income to the players he's casting it just shows me that he's in it for the money.
You know, I was subscribed to Husky from the beginning. I know that's a phrase people throw around a lot ("From the beginning"), but I mean it. I was subbed to him on my acc. (like four youtube accounts ago) when he had less than 1,000 subs. This was not when he was getting 5,000 a day, this was when he was getting like 10-20 a day. Maybe. I remember when he had multiple live streams all the time, where he would just play against the hardest AI and get completely curb stomped and we would all laugh with it -- all 50 of us in the live stream. I remember when Husky got his shit wrecked, and he went on a cursing tirade. I mean a "fuck" after every other word. All of us were freaking shocked, and he was just like, "I'm not always how I am on the casting you know, haha" or something like that. I mean, I got dozens of small little tidbits like that.
After seeing every single one of his hundreds of BW casts (before they were taken down, fuck you Youtube) and seeing the excitement from him when SC2 came out and how much he hung out with his subs when he was so small and not even a youtube partner yet (or had any dream of becoming one at that point), I can definitely say you are full of shit. Husky is not a dick, and he doesn't not care about the community. The same goes for HDStarcraft. If you were around at all in the Beta, you saw that Husky and HD had the a tournament with the largest prize pool to that date; when most tournies had only 1-2 hundred dollar prizes at the most, they had some 5,000$ tournament shit. It was intense, and I know I don't just speak for me when I say that that tournament of theirs gave me hope for a future of SC2 Esports. And it was one of my favorite tournaments to date.
You can make the argument that he fakes a lot of his casts, but I know he's not. I saw how passionate HD, and especially Husky were about his casting early on, and I'm seeing that same passion in his videos that I watch today. Although I am unsubbed to him (dont like sub box being filled) and barely watch Starcraft VOD's (prefer live streams), I always like to watch Husky and enjoy his casting, even though I can find him tiring at times to listen to extensively.
He's a fucking pro who has given so much of his life to Starcraft.
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On January 20 2011 09:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 09:08 aike wrote: You know honestly if it was Tastless/artosis/day9/djwheat/raelcun/diggity making this kind of money I wouldn't mind. But when it's people like HD/Husky/TB, who are complete dicks and act like they don't care about the community other than the fact that they use them to make money and do their bidding, get to make all this money from doing almost nothing with a youtube channel. With Tasteless/artosis/day9/djwheat and those guys I really get a sense that they love the game and love the community and they are doing it because they love the game, if they got paid half as much they'd still be doing it in their free time. In fact, Day9 and DJWheat ARE doing it in their free time, and you know it's because they love esports and love SC2. When TB comes in here acting like a dick just because people start talking about him giving 5% of his SC2 casting income to the players he's casting it just shows me that he's in it for the money.
How short some people's memories are. 'Why don't you give some of your money to the players TB?' I did not a week or so ago? I spent today organising 3 seperate series of showmatches to put money into the hands of players, negotiating with sponsors to make sure they got the best deal. For me, it does not make good business sense to use time doing that, but I did it, because it's not just about what makes the most bank. Little bit more reality. Starcraft 2 is my lowest grossing source of income, yet is very time-consuming. My WoW stuff, my interviews, my gaming first impressions and reviews, my DC Universe playthrough, they kick the shit out of my SC2 VoDs view-wise. Think about how retarded this is for a second. I cast some high level games and they get about 25-30k views each. I do a 6 minute video me playing Black Ops Gungame rambling about nothing in particular, it gets 90k views. I do a video of some random indie game that popped up on Steam at 3am, I get 350k views. I have WoW videos that have 1.5 million views EACH. It is not good business sense for me to spend time doing Starcraft 2 content. I do it because I love it and I want it to grow. It does not make business sense for me to cast low-level tournaments, livestream, hell even cast the best players. It does not make good business sense to give every sponsorship I get directly to the players and not take a cut. And once again, this could come off as holier than thou but in reality, it's just fact. I swear, you only have to look at the numbers to figure this out. It's not about business sense, it's about being passionate about something that's awesome and wanting it to get better. And guess what, passionate people can sometimes look like assholes in the process because we get caught up in the emotional side of things. Sorry about that. I love eSports, so fuckin sue me.
may I add your indie steam games reviews helped me a lot ? Thanks for your efforts =D
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Osaka26947 Posts
I think everyone has become suitably enraged about an issue that personally affects a very small % of our forum-going population. The requisite number of insults have been hurled. And, best of all, we have been treated to dozens of gems from Incontrol.
Let's let the issue rest for a week until we can bring this all up again.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 20 2011 09:10 Highways wrote: What happened to Moderation on TL wtf.
Why are all the trolls allowed to derail the thread and do nothing but slag on the casters. TL is becoming a circus seriously. This thread is detrimental to everyone involved.
How is this thread providing constructive ideas on helping esports grow? It doesn't, it's just trying to alienate as much people as possible. You have a report button? Use it.
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