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On July 03 2012 20:12 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:59 CrtBalorda wrote:On July 03 2012 18:55 Bommes wrote: Uploaded "Daybreak Dynamic Movement" on the EU server for everyone who wants to try it out. dafag?! Is that a troll post, I tried it and it doesnt change anything. tries to separate your army and then move out, you will see the difference
Ow it only does that, okey then. I thought it completly fixed over the pathing. When I split my army I did see a difference, but wasnt sure.
Thx for clearing it up.
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I would love this so much.
I don't see Blizzard actually doing this anytime soon though.
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I think there are better solutions to the problem of clumping. For example they could just introduce something as formation movement. Spreading is not too hard now but it's too difficult to move over the map while staying spread. I don't think they'll change anything though
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The difference is actually really subtle now after having tried it but I think it would be so great to implement this and buff AOE because it's still really easy to get clumped up but easy to stay spread too if you just focus on it which would mean that the constant fear and danger of AOE would force you to keep it spread.
I would still prefer something that keeps it even a bit more spread though than this
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If you are trying out Daybreak Dynamic Movement, please consider recording and uploading your game to youtube for our viewing pleasure. Even better would be a couple of pros playing.
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On July 03 2012 19:08 papaz wrote: Nah, I actually like the deathball. Now all of you that wants more micro in SC2 suddenly wants to remove army splitting in battle?
Use your imba apm and get an advantage over us that can't marine split vs banelings.
Deathballs are stupid and terrible for spectating. A lot of units benefit from the clumping of the deathball. It removes surface area from melee units (zerglings, zealots, ultralisks), making them less efficient. Ranged units in general are very powerful because of how many can fire simultaneously. Especially marines vs anything that flies. (Mutalisks, Banshees, Phoenixes, Voidrays, Interceptors, etc.) And that whole jazz about fighting the UI in BW where we now fight it in SC2 from clumping.
If splitting is really the ultimate solution then colossus/high templar/fungal/banelings/tanks should slowly become inefficient as more players split and get better at splitting, and Terrans especially should slowly stop whining about them. (I'm not implying that you're whining)
On July 03 2012 19:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:08 papaz wrote: Now all of you that wants more micro in SC2 suddenly wants to remove army splitting in battle? Rofl ... what a stupid argument for the simple reason that it implies that "dynamic unit movement" prevents microing and it also implies that splitting armies is the only micro there is. If that was the case only Terrans are microing atm (they are the usual victims of Baneling mass attacks), but we also have blink micro, burrow micro and general positioning micro as well.
So the only micro that exists comes from stalkers and roaches? I don't think positioning is micro intensive as much as simply being aware of your position. Not that I disagree with you, but your argument is kinda stupid too.
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On July 03 2012 19:56 gronnelg wrote: Wouldn't you just end up with two deathballs a-moving each other, but not being as clumped up?
Yes, I think it will, but it will also mean multiple other things. I know people hate the reference to Broodwar, but Im going to reference to it anyway for the battles, just so people get some kind of a picture (or can look up a picture ). In Broodwar, there are also some variety of deathballs, for example in TvP. 'Deathballs' will be spread far enough however that there is plenty of room for micro, plenty of room for movement, plenty of room for retreating and making strategic decisions. Because of this, you can actually retreat, without having to lose at least half or 75% of your army which leads to you immediatly losing the game if you went ahead with a deathball vs deathball battle, and lost. (which is the case with the current sc2 deathball vs deathball scenario). However, it changes even more. Because units are more spread out, the damage per second at the moment the armies clash is far less. This is why there is more room for micro, movement and decisions. Another effect, is that smaller armies will be usefull again! Instead of being instantly annihilated by the blob, the army size that is smaller can actually do some damage to the larger army, because not all of the dps of the larger army is at the front of the battle. Smaller armies could still exchange unfavorably, but some units (Like tanks), have more firing time because they will launch a couple of shots, annihilate the first couple of units and be reloaded by the time the rest of the opponents army is near them. In the current situation, tanks fire once or twice, but since all the units are at the front they get overwhelmed within seconds. Because smaller armies are not almost inherently mean a waste of money, it is not useless for a player to attack multiple fronts. this means that the defending player can do two things: 1. Keep his army as a deathball and try to kill each group one by one. This will ofcourse work, and will kill the other army with somewhat of an advantage, but the other small groups still damage his economy. Since the player with the smaller armies all over the map wouldnt gain an immense disadvantage with engaging with smaller forces, he would have an ecomonic lead, still some forces, and could likely win the game. 2. Split up his forces to defend, counter attack, secure ground (yes, securing ground would be a lot more usefull and doable again). Attention of the two players would be needed everywhere, everywhere would need to be micro'd. Even with the new Hearth of the Swarm this would be great, since the new widow mine could secure ground against the smaller forces invading it.
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I'm sure many of you already saw the other thread, but just like what Bommes uploaded for EU, I've uploaded "MMDaybreak" to NA. If you have a good competitive match and are highish level, please consider uploading a replay. Videos can then be made and put on youtube, for others to see what games look like with this change.
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now zerglings would be able to surround every unit...
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Buff all splash damage by 50% except thor aa, double the aoe on siege and baneling splash and increase ultralisk speed by 20%. Some maps might need to be rescaled as well, but I think that would be a good starting point for further balancing.
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On July 03 2012 20:38 Weerwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:56 gronnelg wrote: Wouldn't you just end up with two deathballs a-moving each other, but not being as clumped up? Yes, I think it will, but it will also mean multiple other things. I know people hate the reference to Broodwar, but Im going to reference to it anyway for the battles, just so people get some kind of a picture (or can look up a picture ). In Broodwar, there are also some variety of deathballs, for example in TvP. 'Deathballs' will be spread far enough however that there is plenty of room for micro, plenty of room for movement, plenty of room for retreating and making strategic decisions. Because of this, you can actually retreat, without having to lose at least half or 75% of your army which leads to you immediatly losing the game if you went ahead with a deathball vs deathball battle, and lost. (which is the case with the current sc2 deathball vs deathball scenario). However, it changes even more. Because units are more spread out, the damage per second at the moment the armies clash is far less. This is why there is more room for micro, movement and decisions. Another effect, is that smaller armies will be usefull again! Instead of being instantly annihilated by the blob, the army size that is smaller can actually do some damage to the larger army, because not all of the dps of the larger army is at the front of the battle. Smaller armies could still exchange unfavorably, but some units (Like tanks), have more firing time because they will launch a couple of shots, annihilate the first couple of units and be reloaded by the time the rest of the opponents army is near them. In the current situation, tanks fire once or twice, but since all the units are at the front they get overwhelmed within seconds. Because smaller armies are not almost inherently mean a waste of money, it is not useless for a player to attack multiple fronts. this means that the defending player can do two things: 1. Keep his army as a deathball and try to kill each group one by one. This will ofcourse work, and will kill the other army with somewhat of an advantage, but the other small groups still damage his economy. Since the player with the smaller armies all over the map wouldnt gain an immense disadvantage with engaging with smaller forces, he would have an ecomonic lead, still some forces, and could likely win the game. 2. Split up his forces to defend, counter attack, secure ground (yes, securing ground would be a lot more usefull and doable again). Attention of the two players would be needed everywhere, everywhere would need to be micro'd. Even with the new Hearth of the Swarm this would be great, since the new widow mine could secure ground against the smaller forces invading it. These are the main parts that could make the game so much greater imo.
Not losing your entire army in a single bad decision by making an engagement and also being able to hurt larger armies with smaller ones
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On July 03 2012 20:39 vidium wrote: now zerglings would be able to surround every unit...
only ground units sadly because zerglings can't fly.
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On July 03 2012 20:45 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 20:12 Garmer wrote:On July 03 2012 19:59 CrtBalorda wrote:On July 03 2012 18:55 Bommes wrote: Uploaded "Daybreak Dynamic Movement" on the EU server for everyone who wants to try it out. dafag?! Is that a troll post, I tried it and it doesnt change anything. tries to separate your army and then move out, you will see the difference On July 03 2012 19:08 papaz wrote: Nah, I actually like the deathball. Now all of you that wants more micro in SC2 suddenly wants to remove army splitting in battle?
Use your imba apm and get an advantage over us that can't marine split vs banelings. no, now you can use your APM to make the death ball, instead of having the Ai doing it for you Or you can use your APM to split your units, instead of having the AI do it for you. Herpderp. The AI doesn't split it for you, it only helps you keep it split with this while at the moment it clumps up again in a single command.
And this would come with an AOE buff as well so you'd have to keep using APM and make sure to still keep them split
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This looks amazing - it looks like an actual army charging.
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On July 03 2012 20:39 pzea469 wrote: I'm sure many of you already saw the other thread, but just like what Bommes uploaded for EU, I've uploaded "MMDaybreak" to NA. If you have a good competitive match and are highish level, please consider uploading a replay. Videos can then be made and put on youtube, for others to see what games look like with this change.
I searched for "MMDaybreak" on NA and was unable to find the map. Any reason why? It might just be an error on my part.
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You guys should please stop using references to Broodwar, because as we know, when the Blizzard guys hear the word "Broodwar" in any sentence they automatically say something along the lines it being a great game, that you can go play it if you want, and completely outstepping the question asked or the core of the subject.
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this is stupid. learn to magicbox/split marines. This can be done ingame it just takes more skill/APM. there is also a trick with patrol move to make the units bump into each other and split appart.
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On July 03 2012 20:38 Weerwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 19:56 gronnelg wrote: Wouldn't you just end up with two deathballs a-moving each other, but not being as clumped up? Yes, I think it will, but it will also mean multiple other things. I know people hate the reference to Broodwar, but Im going to reference to it anyway for the battles, just so people get some kind of a picture (or can look up a picture ). In Broodwar, there are also some variety of deathballs, for example in TvP. 'Deathballs' will be spread far enough however that there is plenty of room for micro, plenty of room for movement, plenty of room for retreating and making strategic decisions. Because of this, you can actually retreat, without having to lose at least half or 75% of your army which leads to you immediatly losing the game if you went ahead with a deathball vs deathball battle, and lost. (which is the case with the current sc2 deathball vs deathball scenario). However, it changes even more. Because units are more spread out, the damage per second at the moment the armies clash is far less. This is why there is more room for micro, movement and decisions. Another effect, is that smaller armies will be usefull again! Instead of being instantly annihilated by the blob, the army size that is smaller can actually do some damage to the larger army, because not all of the dps of the larger army is at the front of the battle. Smaller armies could still exchange unfavorably, but some units (Like tanks), have more firing time because they will launch a couple of shots, annihilate the first couple of units and be reloaded by the time the rest of the opponents army is near them. In the current situation, tanks fire once or twice, but since all the units are at the front they get overwhelmed within seconds. Because smaller armies are not almost inherently mean a waste of money, it is not useless for a player to attack multiple fronts. this means that the defending player can do two things: 1. Keep his army as a deathball and try to kill each group one by one. This will ofcourse work, and will kill the other army with somewhat of an advantage, but the other small groups still damage his economy. Since the player with the smaller armies all over the map wouldnt gain an immense disadvantage with engaging with smaller forces, he would have an ecomonic lead, still some forces, and could likely win the game. 2. Split up his forces to defend, counter attack, secure ground (yes, securing ground would be a lot more usefull and doable again). Attention of the two players would be needed everywhere, everywhere would need to be micro'd. Even with the new Hearth of the Swarm this would be great, since the new widow mine could secure ground against the smaller forces invading it. This makes so much sense. Yeah, after this new info I would have to agree that this would be a change for the better.
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