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On June 12 2011 20:32 Huragius wrote: Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair.
Yes that is actually just terrible. Once the banelings get to a certain number you just a-move them and shit over the entire army and main of the opponent.
SK-Terran vs lurkers were easier to play against than banelings
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On June 12 2011 20:32 gentile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:29 m0ck wrote: Thanks for a good post, I think it needs more attention that blizzard's design team for SC2 are somewhat incompetent and not worthy of the engagement and dedication that the game receives from the community. Sad, but true. they MADE the game ...they are incompetent?...you must be kidding.
they arent incompetent but as the OP stated, blizzard design teams (maybe all design teams i cant comment) have a pride issue.
for anyone who played competitive wow back when people cared about that, there were huge obvious flaws in the game. the problem was "delete this whole ability, its just stupid" was never an acceptable choice for them, too much pride that they might be so wrong that something needs removal. i feel like its similar to that in sc2.
as much fun as it is that "marauder lose to immortals unless theres a ghost, then marauders win" the battles are so 1 sided its rediculous. a few immortals in a normal deathball just rape marauders, and marines are useless by this stage. but land a few emps and the whole protoss army falls over.
its GREAT that units and upgrades affect even the most basic match ups, but it shouldnt swing from roflstomp for 1 side, to facerape for the other in 1 moment.
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I still miss mind control
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On June 12 2011 20:43 Cheebah wrote: "The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom to little souls and inferior intellect."
~Lord Jeffrey That's ironic coming from a literary CRITIC
On June 12 2011 20:50 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:32 Huragius wrote: Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair. Yes that is actually just terrible. Once the banelings get to a certain number you just a-move them and shit over the entire army and main of the opponent. SK-Terran vs lurkers were easier to play against than banelings
This is such a dumbass argument.
"Once the tanks get to a certain number you just siege mode them and shit over the entire army and main of the opponent". Fun fact: banelings are a suicide unit.
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why did the polls ask most uninteresting unit then in the analysis right after, it changed to most hated? Uninteresting doesn't always equal hated. I find the overseer uninteresting but I don't hate it.
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i dont understand why people feel the colossus is the most uninteresting unit. I think the way the unit functions is pretty interesting (large range, cliff walk). it just sucks that everything else in the protoss arsenal is so weak they need a colo (or HT) to survive.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On June 12 2011 20:33 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: who do you trust more when it comes to starcraft game design? the "players" which dedicated the last 10 years of their lifes to starcraft and know/understand the game at its deepest levels or some random command & conquer dev that just wants some "cool" (cnc units,war of the worlds tripod..) stuff ?
I would choose the developer. Most of the players with 10 years of BW experience who are vocal about SC2 are hopelessly stuck in the BW mindset and are biased beyond any reason. The only thing you could expect them to design is a BW clone that would never be appealing to anyone without BW background.
Browder & co. are walking a very thin line between being able to please the competitive community and being able to justify a $100 million budget for an "outdated" old-school game, with free multiplayer service and continuous balance tweaks and support. They, and Blizzard as a whole deserve huge respect and our deepest thanks for even trying to make a modern competitive game of this quality, which in the context of current industry state makes no sense financially. Yet the majority of the "community feedback" is just whining threads like this with silly demands. "Bring back this", "bring back that", "BW was so much better!".
Show some respect to the company that still bothers to make good games for the old generation!
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On June 12 2011 20:50 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:32 Huragius wrote: Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair. Yes that is actually just terrible. Once the banelings get to a certain number you just a-move them and shit over the entire army and main of the opponent. SK-Terran vs lurkers were easier to play against than banelings
I can say same thing with collossus. When you get 7 of them it's gg for any zerg, unless zerg's army consists of pure corruptors lol.
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Okay, wait. Wait.
The biggest complaint you hear is that Blizzard is "balancing the game" or "making maps" or "changing Battlenet 2.0" for the casual gamer. As if those bastards of society even deserve our marvelous paradise of a game.
Now, we have a post where the OP is complaining that Blizzard isn't listening to the community?
It's one or the other here folks. Either Blizzard is listening to large a swath of the community, or they aren't listening. It's either or. One or the other.
As far as your actual complaints:
I think the developers have a stronger grasp of the game than Sen, and the chinese pro-gamers that have had the game for....what, three months now? Sen said: "a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced." Unless I'm reading that completely wrong, Sen is trying to put forward Chinese pro-gamer knowledge as some kind of trump card, and when Dustin Browder refutes it by saying "uhhh...yeah....we didn't develop the game to be Brood War. Rushes might be stronger, but that's inherently part of a different game, this game, stop making comparisons with Brood War kthnxbye" and people are mad?
The units he was looking at to change as being "boring" are legit too. Immortals are so fucking boring. They don't even do anything. The coolest thing was when I heard rumors of a Phoenix graviton beam micro to pick them up out of the Thor strike cannon. Then the nerf came, and Immortals were given up for anything but them. Who would pick shitty, boring Immortals when you can just go Templar and feedback the bitch? Immortals were dynamic when they were needed to slay Thors. Not anymore.
Overseers I'm fine with seeing gone, or reworked, if that means a faster Overlord for Zerg. Dear god do they need a scout. Colossus being boring is just an artifact of them being used so much in every Protoss match up because they're the only really viable and reliable tech for Protoss. Give them some other units, like reworking the Immortal a bit, and voila. Colossus won't be as boring because people are using more unit combinations, and we aren't seeing Colossus as much. The really boring units are those that you never see but are still fucking boring when you do. Ala the fucking Immortal.
Forgive me, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the post was nothing but "Wah, they are out of touch because they didn't listen to Sen" stuff.
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On June 12 2011 20:55 B.I.G. wrote: i dont understand why people feel the colossus is the most uninteresting unit. I think the way the unit functions is pretty interesting (large range, cliff walk). it just sucks that everything else in the protoss arsenal is so weak they need a colo (or HT) to survive. Cliff walking walking through units 9 range Fast T3 unit speed
All of these makes the colosuss require 0 micro. It's such a powerful unit yet even someone in practice league can use it perfectly. HTs are much better because it takes some form of skill to make them more effective.
I find it amazing so many Protoss are defending the Colossus. If Blizzard ever gets player support to balance the game I sure as hell don't want them getting it from Protoss players.
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On June 12 2011 20:53 turdburgler wrote: its GREAT that units and upgrades affect even the most basic match ups, but it shouldnt swing from roflstomp for 1 side, to facerape for the other in 1 moment.
In my opinion this is the most crucial point - Tyler has also mentioned this repeatedly on his stream. At least in PvT engagements, if one side wins, then it wins by a LOT. There are no "close" battles, either storm/colossi stomp everything into the ground, or EMP prevails...then P is dead. As protoss player this is that has been bothering me the most since release. Either I win the "game-deciding" battle or lose it, but there are hardly any games with back and forth action let alone cool comebacks. Once one side gains a lead in midgame, it's actually way too easy to follow up on that.
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On June 12 2011 20:55 Random() wrote: Browder & co. are walking a very thin line between being able to please the competitive community and being able to justify a $100 million budget for an "outdated" old-school game, with free multiplayer service and continuous balance tweaks and support. They, and Blizzard as a whole deserve huge respect and our deepest thanks for even trying to make a modern competitive game of this quality, which in the context of current industry state makes no sense financially. Yet the majority of the "community feedback" is just whining threads like this with silly demands. "Bring back this", "bring back that", "BW was so much better!".
Part of this is that Blizzard is pretty committed to incremental changes to their games. They're not going to go out and remove units and drop in sort-of related units from another game without doing some serious testing first. If they just held a poll and implemented whatever the community wanted we'd have 1 supply flying ultralisks that cast vortex and had colossus lasers (and probably no sentries). That's the big reason I don't think we'll see any huge in-game changes for HoTS. I think we may see tweaks in how a mechanic is implemented but I don't think we'll see anything that fundamentally changes how a race is played.
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On June 12 2011 21:00 oGs420 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:55 B.I.G. wrote: i dont understand why people feel the colossus is the most uninteresting unit. I think the way the unit functions is pretty interesting (large range, cliff walk). it just sucks that everything else in the protoss arsenal is so weak they need a colo (or HT) to survive. Cliff walking walking through units 9 range Fast T3 unit speed All of these makes the colosuss require 0 micro. It's such a powerful unit yet even someone in practice league can use it perfectly. HTs are much better because it takes some form of skill to make them more effective. I find it amazing so many Protoss are defending the Colossus. If Blizzard ever gets player support to balance the game I sure as hell don't want them getting it from Protoss players.
Are you saying the colossus is boring due to it's function and needs a redesign or that it's too powerfull and needs a redesign ?
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Gamers are out of touch. Go to blizzards head office and sit down with the boss of sc2 and tell him his game is shit compared to bw. Get a bunch of "we'll fix it if its broken but we arent making a bw clone" responses and all of a sudden they have lost touch.
In case you have forgotten there was no communication with the community when scbw was made or wc3. They wanted to make a game based around their ideas and that is what they did. Whether the game is good or bad they know very well that it was off their decisions and vision and they dont need to seek anyones approval for it.
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On June 12 2011 21:07 Tremendous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:00 oGs420 wrote:On June 12 2011 20:55 B.I.G. wrote: i dont understand why people feel the colossus is the most uninteresting unit. I think the way the unit functions is pretty interesting (large range, cliff walk). it just sucks that everything else in the protoss arsenal is so weak they need a colo (or HT) to survive. Cliff walking walking through units 9 range Fast T3 unit speed All of these makes the colosuss require 0 micro. It's such a powerful unit yet even someone in practice league can use it perfectly. HTs are much better because it takes some form of skill to make them more effective. I find it amazing so many Protoss are defending the Colossus. If Blizzard ever gets player support to balance the game I sure as hell don't want them getting it from Protoss players. Are you saying the colossus is boring due to it's function and needs a redesign or that it's too powerfull and needs a redesign ? Function.
"i maek colossus and win game"
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On June 12 2011 20:55 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:33 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: who do you trust more when it comes to starcraft game design? the "players" which dedicated the last 10 years of their lifes to starcraft and know/understand the game at its deepest levels or some random command & conquer dev that just wants some "cool" (cnc units,war of the worlds tripod..) stuff ?
I would choose the developer. Most of the players with 10 years of BW experience who are vocal about SC2 are hopelessly stuck in the BW mindset and are biased beyond any reason. The only thing you could expect them to design is a BW clone that would never be appealing to anyone without BW background. Browder & co. are walking a very thin line between being able to please the competitive community and being able to justify a $100 million budget for an "outdated" old-school game, with free multiplayer service and continuous balance tweaks and support. They, and Blizzard as a whole deserve huge respect and our deepest thanks for even trying to make a modern competitive game of this quality, which in the context of current industry state makes no sense financially. Yet the majority of the "community feedback" is just whining threads like this with silly demands. "Bring back this", "bring back that", "BW was so much better!". Show some respect to the company that still bothers to make good games for the old generation!
I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I try to take OP's at face value without inferring too much. This OP reads like a "whine with pictures" - a whine with effort put in.
I'll trust the devs judgement anyday over that of the biased community. I have a feeling if we left game design up to some in the community it would be BW with updated skins. Actually, scratch the updated skins, that would ruin the feel.
All I can say is get over yourselves. There comes a point in game design where things are added by feel and judgement. What you are basically doing is saying that yours would be superior to that of the person who does it for a living. If thats the case go to Blizzard and take his job with your superb credentials.
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this thread is bullshit. sorry but let me explain why. first of all the interview is not written down word by word. its freely written down how the OP felt it was. second dustin is not trolling anyone. whats the word in english for this.. quote mining?. i highly suggest the youtube videos are attached to this OP so no one is missled. this OP is full of wrong statements and i highly recommend ignoring all of it and watching the interviews for yourself.
second the rush thing too is completly false quoted. the question was something like this " in sc1 rushs were risky and all in while you can rush safely and still win if it fails".. and dustin did not agree which is completly right. again. watch the freaking videos and ignore this thread.
what the fuck. colossi are boring? huge laser robots? yea totally legit its not because everyone gets killed by them it is because they are boring. sure.. lololol.......... worst thread ever.
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Roach, corruptor, colossi, I've had that trio in the reversed order since Beta. The reason why people talk about them is that they're actually used and seen a lot, but they are obviously a ton of units which have a design problem.
Overseer/mothership/carriers/warp-prism/raven/reapers needs redesigning as well. They have almost no purpose, are never seen and suck on all aspects. Immortal i'm not so sure of how to tweak that unit and not make it either a joke or too strong.
But people need to keep in mind that all units are inter-connected. You don't need to buff individually each of these units to make them effective. If the corruptors disappeared, carriers against Zerg in the late-game would be a "decent" option... same thing with terran vikings...etc...
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This is terribly relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-Badly
I get really annoyed when random people on the internet is saying how Blizzard does not know how to make a game. Do you, random idiot, do you know? If you were in charge, everything would turn out perfectly, wouldn't it?
That being said, of course Blizzard are not perfect. I also happen to think the Colossus is the most boring unit of SC2. I think overseers dropping infested terrans was the best idea ever, and instead of balancing it (or leaving it the fuck alone for a long enough period of time to let players adapt) they just removed it. The immortal, I don't mind, I think the danger it poses and the need to single it out, therefore forcing the opposite player to micro it away, is fun. But as far as I'm concerned, the protoss meathshield is the zealot, and the immortal would be just as fun without the hardened shield, because doing high damage against armored is it's role.
Anyway. Dustin Browder is not Blizzard. I'm sure there are just as many people on his team slapping their foreheads at what he says in interviews as there are in the community. Per capita of course.
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On June 12 2011 20:55 B.I.G. wrote: i dont understand why people feel the colossus is the most uninteresting unit. I think the way the unit functions is pretty interesting (large range, cliff walk). it just sucks that everything else in the protoss arsenal is so weak they need a colo (or HT) to survive. It's boring in my opinion because it makes the game boring. It's so strong you need to make gateway units weaker to compensate. On top of that, it's a unit that's terrible in small numbers but very strong once you get a desired collosus count (usually 4-6). This just leads to gameplay where Protoss doesn't actually have a midgame beyond going for a mass warpgate all in, and has to play extremely passive, uneventful games where they get a 3rd base, defend, and get their desired lategame army. Collosus based PvZ is the most boring thing in the game in my opinion. we have a few Protoss trying out non-collosus play, and hopefully those types of strategies get developed further.
On June 12 2011 21:15 Osmoses wrote:This is terribly relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-BadlyI get really annoyed when random people on the internet is saying how Blizzard does not know how to make a game. Do you, random idiot, do you know? If you were in charge, everything would turn out perfectly, wouldn't it?That being said, of course Blizzard are not perfect. I also happen to think the Colossus is the most boring unit of SC2. I think overseers dropping infested terrans was the best idea ever, and instead of balancing it (or leaving it the fuck alone for a long enough period of time to let players adapt) they just removed it. The immortal, I don't mind, I think the danger it poses and the need to single it out, therefore forcing the opposite player to micro it away, is fun. But as far as I'm concerned, the protoss meathshield is the zealot, and the immortal would be just as fun without the hardened shield, because doing high damage against armored is it's role. Anyway. Dustin Browder is not Blizzard. I'm sure there are just as many people on his team slapping their foreheads at what he says in interviews as there are in the community. Per capita of course. Regarding the bolded part, it's a stupid statement because we don't have the same training and expertise a developer does. You have to look at evertything relatively. Are blizzard developers better than random joe on teamliquid? No shit. The question you have to ask is are blizzard developers better than other developers? Better than Brood War's developers? Because the fact that they can make a game better than me means nothing considering I know nothing about making games
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