As a below average diamond player who probably watches a double the amount he plays, I've come to notice some little things that make Starcraft 2 lose a bit of its spectator luster in comparison with it's elder incarnation Starcraft: Brood War.
In particular, I've two things I'd like to see changed, and a third that is actually a PvZ whine, but you can ignore that
First, the Pylon Splice: (Insert picture of a dozen gateway unit being warped in just as their pylon is destroyed)
One thing many a play may not know about killing pylon power providers as units are being warped in is that the Protoss player losing their units is fully refunded for their loss.
In an awkward turn of fate, or even a purposeful ruse, Protoss players not only get refunded the full worth of their units being warped in, they also get their warp in cooldown set to 0 so that they can rewarp in the units they've just lost.
I for one feel that this is too forgiving for the Protoss player losing the pylon, the crowd should be able to ROAR at the instant evaporation of a dozen stalkers aborted in transit, not stare as the Protoss player purposefully snipes his/her own pylon to warp in their units to their currently being harassed base.
Second, the Macro Factory: (Insert picture of a factory with five Thors cued, in the midst of being harassed to cinders by Mutalisks)
Nearly identical to the pylon splice, but much less dynamic in usage, is the Macro Factory. The Macro Factory doesn't have to be a Factory, it can be a Barracks or a Robotics Facility, either way the concept is the same. When the player with the Macro Factory loses said Macro Factory they are instantly refunded all of the prospective units they've "lost".
In Brood War it was always an amazing thing to see a Terran player getting Battlecruisers in late game TvT, only to see them speedily dropped by a fleet of Dropships filled with Goliaths and Siege Tanks, while another squad of Siege Tanks, now with vision, instantly incinerated the Starports of the Battlecruiser massing Terran player. Watching this made you, the spectator, cringe in empathetic agony, not just because late game TvT with Battlecruisers meant that the game had been going on for nearly an hour, but because of the staggering cost of losing not only the precious resources the infrastructure used, but also the time it would take to recreate said infrastructure. But here was the kicker, the icing to top it all off, if the poor Starport starved Terran hadn't cancelled his Battlecruisers, he was just about a full mineral patch of minerals and half a geyser's worth of gas further behind! I even remember watching instant replays during the OSL showing that a player HADN'T cancelled his units or upgrades, making the sting so much more pertinent!
The Main Point
I know there are often frustrated blogposts and a universal whinnying about the learning curve of Starcraft 2, and how it's so breathtakingly steep that it actually puts off the average gamer. But, as all RTS gamers know, it is that knife's edge, that sheer drop, that's so unforgiving that it's leaner than deli turkey kind of nature that makes your heart stop. The little poniards within the greater mace that make the wound splay larger.
I want the eSports viewer to have that in Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 does have this, or else it wouldn't be as damn good of a game as it is, but I feel like we deserve a few tweaks like these to make the game even sharper, even more... sublime.
If you've found anything else you think would positively aid Starcraft 2's viewer experience without changing a unit's stats or a building or upgrade's timing, please do tell. I'd love to discuss it here (also, critique of what I just posted would be quite appreciated)
LIST OF THINGS FROM THE DISCUSSION
Knutzi: zerg also get full return if morphing baneling overseer or broodlord dies
Also, for the PvZ whine... Have any of you noticed that zealots do not get Guardian shield's +2 armor when taking damage from a ranged zerg unit using its melee animation? Do you think this was purposeful, or just a glitch on Blizzard's part that should be patched? I know it may seem a nuisance but it's a big thing to me... why should Terran bio units shooting from pointblank not ignore Guardian shield?
TL;DR? What suggestions do you have for making Starcraft 2's spectator experience richer than it already is, without actually changing any of it's units or building's stats or purposes? How do you feel about making Starcraft 2 less forgiving?
I actually never noticed either of these things, wow. But yeah they SHOULD be fixed. Personally as a Brotoss (yeah you heard me) I prefer to manage my cash flow and it's extremely unnerving to have +800 minerals. Besides, I feel that losing all of these features would make the game more intense to watch (but then again, I find SCII dull most of the time anyway).
I just wish microing large armies took more skill, or more importantly, players had more of an incentive to micro. I have no idea how blizzard could implement this however.
Zerg units meleeing is intended to bypass guardian shield.
Otherwise i knew that protoss got refunded when a pylon was destroyed with units, but i wasn't aware that it reset the warpgate timer. that kinda sucks.
Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
On July 05 2011 05:08 Eleaven wrote: Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
Yeah those Naniwa vs. Thorzain games were just terrible to watch...
On July 05 2011 04:59 ShatterZer0 wrote: First, the Pylon Splice: (Insert picture of a dozen gateway unit being warped in just as their pylon is destroyed)
One thing many a play may not know about killing pylon power providers as units are being warped in is that the Protoss player losing their units is fully refunded for their loss.
In an awkward turn of fate, or even a purposeful ruse, Protoss players not only get refunded the full worth of their units being warped in, they also get their warp in cooldown set to 0 so that they can rewarp in the units they've just lost.
I for one feel that this is too forgiving for the Protoss player losing the pylon, the crowd should be able to ROAR at the instant evaporation of a dozen stalkers aborted in transit, not stare as the Protoss player purposefully snipes his/her own pylon to warp in their units to their currently being harassed base.
This would be pretty awesome if it actually happened.
In Brood War you didn't lose money for units queued up.
I'd like it if you could give a replay example in which kiling the Pylon while units were being warped in is a huge concern. In my opinion if you didn't let the Warpgate cooldown reset/refund money, it'd make PvP even more fragile than it already is.
I don't agree that the warpin should not be refunded since there is no option to cancel the warpin as there is with cancelling the units being built in factory/rax/robo and so on. Timer is another thing but I tihnk it would do too much damage to destroying only 1 pylon if all those changes were implemented.
As it is I might lose earlygame because 1 pylon is destroyed (while warpin) because you get supplyblocked that early. And let's say that another pylon is being built and you can't reinforce to defend the early pressure then this would only make early aggression in XvP so much stronger.
I kind of wish they'd left in limited unit selection. Not necessarily 12, but something like 20-30 just to encourage people to have their units on separate hotkeys instead of some huge clump. It was way harder to deal with the 12-unit limit in BW because you were already so limited on hotkeys because of the lack of MBS, but now that I can have all my production on 4 hotkeys or less, that leaves 6 free for army and other buildings (like upgrade structures), so you'd still be able to have absolutely everything hotkeyed.
Im pretty sure you get FULL refund for all units building inside of a production facility, while its getting destroyed in BW. Same for upgrades/research.
I agree on the pylon thing however. It always bugged me and its just not really logical t-t Also it would create so much more "whhhooaaaaaaaaa" moments if units and cooldown was lost while destroying the pylon.
On July 05 2011 05:10 Animostas wrote: In Brood War you didn't lose money for units queued up.
I'd like it if you could give a replay example in which kiling the Pylon while units were being warped in is a huge concern. In my opinion if you didn't let the Warpgate cooldown reset/refund money, it'd make PvP even more fragile than it already is.
If you had 5 siege tanks in your factory, you paid for them up front, if you got your factory sniped 10 seconds later you wouldn't be refunded for ANY of the units you queued up.
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...
i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
I really don't agree with any of these points and I'm a long time BW spectator.
There are a lot of other nuances within the game that create tension and make BW amazing to watch. Unit and upgrade canceling is not one of those that is worth adding for spectating pleasure when compared to the impact on the players.
Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
Harsh, but unwarranted? I mean, if you're greedy enough to put up a naked pylon and pray that the other player DOESN'T snipe it, doesn't that mean you're just basing the attack off of luck anyways?
Do you deserve such a safety net? I mean, if you are, in the example, 7 gate pressuring/all in ing. If you left some units to protect your pylon it wouldn't have happened anyway, while it would have weakened your push.
Other races deal with this the hard way by getting their reinforcements blocked off and sniped, Warpgate in itself is worth the units to protect a pylon or a Warp Prism, isn't it?
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.
Structure dies while building units: 100% return of the unit cost Structure dies while upgrading: 75% return of the upgrade cost Cancel upgrade: 100% return Cancel units (including eggs): 100% return Cancel building: 75% return
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...
I just tested it with marines killing my own barracks, you get a full refund on whatever's in the queue (I went from 456 to 705 when it died, 5 marines were queued).
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.
Games are lost over less: a drone sent the wrong scouting direction, a first gateway being blocked for a few spare moments, a mutalisk's ricochet volley happening to kill that one pivotal unit/building/structure that was of paramount importance. At least a pylon's life can be influenced by intelligent gaming and not just luck. Brood War was a game of tempered insanity, and that's what I feel like Blizzard should inject MORE of into Starcraft 2. :D
EDIT: Maybe I'm wrong, somebody confirm on BW for me? I don't want to redownload it onto my laptop at the moment...
I just tested it with marines killing my own barracks, you get a full refund on whatever's in the queue (I went from 456 to 705 when it died, 5 marines were queued).
I agree with the pylon slice since the units are actually being warped in, but the factory can only build one unit at a time. Thusly, it is only actually building one unit and the other Thors are simply sitting there in que waiting to be built. I could understand losing money for the first unit in que though. The pylon warp in actually has the units being build simultaneously, and therefore the Protoss player should not get a refund. I was actually not aware until now that they did get a refund for it since Protoss is not my main. Interesting and illogical.
As far as I know, a structure that is producing/researching would refund the research when it was killed even in BW. It refunds exactly the same as canceling the unit/research manually.
Now, onto whether the OP's change would be good:
From eSports perspective: This change would be hard to notice visually, especially for newer viewers. Not much of a bonus to implement it so Blizz should focus their attention elsewhere.
From gameplay perspective: Another corner-case micro/macro trick I suppose. It has more to do with mechanics and quick reaction and nothing to do with strategy. I wouldn't care either way but Blizz should focus development elsewhere.
Coming from a failure Terran in TvZ, I feel the "Macro Factory" idea thing would make TvZ impractically hard against mass muta unless you are like fucking Flash. TvZ requires insane multi task from both sides already and being forced to go home and cancel a bunch of shit (because I don't want to cancel shit that won't get destroyed by spamming ESC key in my production hotkeys) could be right when 60 banelings roll into your army. IDK, maybe I'm just being a whiney Terran but that seems a little unreasonable given the already multi task intensive demands from TvZ.
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
Personally I think resources should be refunded for the Macro Factory or the Pylon snipe, but there should be some sort of drawback. Perhaps a percentage of the resources spent are returned (say 66 percent) and the cooldown on Warpgates is reset.
Also as far as the whole "harsh" punishment for a pylon snipe, since Warpgates already kind of break the common RTS mechanic of defender's advantage (to build units in close proximity to your opponent's base it should be high risk/high reward, but with Warpgates that whole concept is completely defeated), I don't think punishing the Protoss in that way would be too harsh.
If you're going to do some sort of big Gateway push and your pylon gets destroyed it should cost you a lot and therefore give you more incentive to keep the pylon alive. If Blizzard is willing to remove defender's advantage, there should be more of a drawback then what there currently is.
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
This. There's tension, then there's insanity. It would be punishing to the extreme, and would make P lose some games just because of a Pylon snipe.
Games are lost over less: a drone sent the wrong scouting direction, a first gateway being blocked for a few spare moments, a mutalisk's ricochet volley happening to kill that one pivotal unit/building/structure that was of paramount importance. At least a pylon's life can be influenced by intelligent gaming and not just luck. Brood War was a game of tempered insanity, and that's what I feel like Blizzard should inject MORE of into Starcraft 2. :D
No, this mechanic you are suggesting is just awful.
A lot of toss players will warp in defensive units against drops or other harass and are at risk of having the warp in units die straight up during the 5 second warp in. This is tension and punishes a player who is careless about their warp in.
If a player wants to snipe a pylon, currently it can help a lot as it delays reinforcements by the warp in time + distance, due to the warp ins getting cancelled. That is a pretty good incentive for snap decision making by the harassing player and creates tension.
Now with your mechanic if you warp in within one pylon and some dropped marauders snipe it the reinforcements are GONE and so is a bunch of money. Even if the money was refunded but the warp in time wasn't, the damage done before defensive units can respond would be enormous.
This should only happen in the case of an artosis pylon powering a lot of structures and is a reward for good decision making by the aggressor and a punishment for bad play from the defender.
Maybe not a little thing, but in my mind the most important thing would be to change unit pathing so they don't push each other out of the way and clump up. Area of effect would have to be rebalanced, though.
So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
Harsh, but unwarranted? I mean, if you're greedy enough to put up a naked pylon and pray that the other player DOESN'T snipe it, doesn't that mean you're just basing the attack off of luck anyways?
Do you deserve such a safety net? I mean, if you are, in the example, 7 gate pressuring/all in ing. If you left some units to protect your pylon it wouldn't have happened anyway, while it would have weakened your push.
Other races deal with this the hard way by getting their reinforcements blocked off and sniped, Warpgate in itself is worth the units to protect a pylon or a Warp Prism, isn't it?
Protoss deal with getting their units attacked for the 5second warp in when trying to reinforce so making the comment that Protoss dont have to deal with it does not work.
Having the the killed Pylon and not having the units refunded and the cool down not be reset would make defending pushes nearly impossible in some scenarios. It would effectively cripple the Protoss.
On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote: So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.
Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
On July 05 2011 05:14 WniO wrote: i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
There was some bug in the beta that transformed eggs back into larvae upon cancelling the unit. It made it possible to rush for 10 zerglings in less than 2 minutes and basically broke the ladder because it couldn't be stopped so everyone was playing zerg and doing it.
On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote: So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.
Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
No it's not. It'd put zerg in the same boat. So when you lose tech you lose ability to make those units immediately. It'd make everything more cerebral than it already is which is the OP goal in this. Why can't zerg participate in the oh shit i shouldn't have made that unit at the moment party with everyone else?
On July 05 2011 05:48 Baarn wrote: So OP just to be fair when I snipe your spire it should immediately cancel all your muta in production and you lose the larvae plus the cost to make the units.
That's completely different. Don't compare Apples to Oranges.
Maybe the Pylon thing could maybe just refund the money and not the warpgate time. A compromise. Or maybe refund 75% of the resources and the warpgate time.
@Baarn Spire is tech, factory is production building. You can still kill eggs. What you say is more like killing armory would cancel all thors.
@Negative money full refund and lost warpgate time is curent status
I would like muta to have a more visible attack animation. I feel as though its more like an instant attack that you have to time rather then see. Same with corrupters (though not as bad). That and i wish you could harass with probes like you could in BW (though i fear them heavily)
What you're outlining is by far not one of the top things that make bw/sc2 exciting. Like in the example of the BC terran losing his infrastructure, the loss of infrastructure is the critical, exciting thing, not the fact that a million BCs were queued up. Forcing toss to lose the units and the warpin time won't add any tension, it will just cause lots of coinflip losses and make the game more frustrating instead of "tense" or spectator-friendly.
I think the pylon splice change would be fine. As long as if the units are still able to warp in if there is at least 1 pylon powering the area.
This would not hurt the protoss defense as protoss should have numerous pylons powering up areas of their base, and perhaps make protoss more conscious about what areas of their base are prone to being dropped. Then make the decision to power up those areas heavily with numerous pylons in order to defend.
For the high reward of having no distance for protoss units to cover the protoss should have to be somewhat exposed in that if they have no regard for their pylon reinforcement units they are punished for it. It would be my hope that instead of this being a nerf to protoss, that this would just encourage more intelligent decisions for protoss players to make.
On July 05 2011 05:04 Chocolate wrote: I just wish microing large armies took more skill, or more importantly, players had more of an incentive to micro. I have no idea how blizzard could implement this however.
blink micro is great to watch. i think it was MC vs Idra at some tourney, where they had about equal armies and idra's hydras should've won head to head, but MC had godlike blink micro and at the end he barely lost any. i wish burrow micro was better. the roaches just seem to take too long to regen if you individually burrow them like you would with blink stalkers. maybe someone will figure something out because right now the only actions they're doing is shoot and run and mass burrow to counter force fields.
I want my total games played back(W/L). If they could at least include it in diamond at least. And I want to change my charactername. The duration of forcefield should be nerfed. it is way, WAY too long.
The game is too straightforward at the moment. They should make HotS include more strategic units such as lurkers, reavers etc to make the attacks progress more slowly and to raise the importance for positioning and control during battles. This is at the moment pretty much achieved in TvT, where the siege tank control and position war creates amazing games.
They should make the units look COOLER after every upgrade. They should make terran buildings look COOLER after the structure armor and hi-sec auto tracking. Kind of like how the upgraded bunker looks different. 3/3/3 zealots should be on fucking FIRE all the time and their charge should leave a trail of FLAMES behind them. Vikings and corruptors should do random barrel rolls. Blink should leave a smoke trail behind it like zeratul does. Dropped banelings should look like BOMBS that explode violently on the army. Aesthetics man, I want my i7 to DO WORK.
I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
On July 05 2011 06:09 JanBanan wrote: I want my total games played back(W/L). If they could at least include it in diamond at least. And I want to change my charactername. The duration of forcefield should be nerfed. it is way, WAY too long.
I have been saying this for months, even a 1 second nerf is better than nothing.
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
people don't give respect to opinions they think are inferior to theirs. It's the nature of video games, if they aren't as good as you or agree with you, then they are deemed noob and can never speak again.
as far as ramps, Tal`Darim altar does not have ramps leading into the main and there are other GSL maps that do not have ramps.
On July 05 2011 06:00 Vod.kaholic wrote: What you're outlining is by far not one of the top things that make bw/sc2 exciting. Like in the example of the BC terran losing his infrastructure, the loss of infrastructure is the critical, exciting thing, not the fact that a million BCs were queued up. Forcing toss to lose the units and the warpin time won't add any tension, it will just cause lots of coinflip losses and make the game more frustrating instead of "tense" or spectator-friendly.
how is attacking a strategic, critical pylon a coinflip?
On July 05 2011 05:14 WniO wrote: i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
They tried this in Beta. It resulted in the fastest most deadly ling rush you could imagine.
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
I knew someone would complain about protoss countering this. The OP was talking about a PROTOSS thing he wants changed. Of-course protoss will argue their side, they have the right to, as it is something that can severely cripple a defending protoss, even more so in early game where that one pylon will supply cap you long enough for you to die.
To the OPs side, I think it should be warp in time is reset but minerals or such are refunded by 80-75% return, maybe more people will learn not to warp on a pylon right next to a incoming force.
They need change the way units clump up like they're all in love with each other. It looks so ugly, makes for worse gameplay, horrible for spectating, and I can't understand how so many people are fine with this. I care about this changing more than getting any new units or anything like that.
BW was exactly the same as SC2 in terms of refunds: 100% on research cancel, 75% on building cancels, 100% on production when building is killed.
Edit: Oh people already answered this. Sorry.
I agree that you shouldn't get a refund / cooldown reset on killed Pylons during warpin. Strangely, I feel that you should get a refund / cooldown reset on warp prisms phased out just because that's something you can purposefully control.
On July 05 2011 05:14 WniO wrote: i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
this was the case when starcraft 2 first came out, i think it was intended by blizzard but they didnt really think it through, so people did 6 pools with 5-6 larvas stacked up because they start building a OL and cancel once they get a new larva so they have alot of larva when pool is done.
Blizzard noted it as a bug when they fixed this "issue" tho, i beleive that this was just a design mistake, nog a bug
On July 05 2011 05:08 Eleaven wrote: Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
Really? lol. As a person who watched starcraft before I actually played it myself, I can tell you that protoss was the most fun race to watch. Freaking PvP was fun, when NOTHING else than "who has more collosus" was happening. When you're really new to the game, it's all up to personal preference, but personally, there was nothing I found cooler than siege tanks all firing at once crushing everything, collosus (which is a very cool looking unit if you havent had to deal with using/playing against it), banelings blowing stuff up and forcefields blocking off ramps for ages. So it's all personal preference.
I can also tell you that now, after actually having played the game for quite a while, having 2 accounts and playing as all races, I do still find protoss games to be more enjoyable than zerg games by far. Even ZvT isn't as interessting as PvT and PvZ imo. There's close to no variation, almost always the excact same stuff happens. Zerg goes hatch first, or pool hatch. Terran either 2raxes or goes early expand. Terran then proceeds to harass with hellions or does a timing push with tanks. Zerg tries to defend hellions, gets a third, or baneling busts. And so on. It's almost always the same stuff. Now, I'm not trying to say I hate watching TvZ, because I don't. I'm just trying to say that personally i enjoy PvT and PvZ more, so even though YOU don't enjoy them, doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.
Saying things like that is just ignorant. Just look at it, how many people watched the TSL finals, and loved them. How many people loved Idra vs MC at MLG, Huk vs moon, Huk vs Idra, MC vs Thorzain, Mc vs Losira.. And about every other game involving MC tbh :p Sure, there's been a bunch of fantastic TvZ's, but there's also been a bunch of fantastic PvX's.
Really wish people would stop spreading crap like "Everyone hates to watch X, EVERYONE" Even think a lot of people prefer PvP over ZvZ since the last patch.
so if i morph my corruptors to broodies in a bad location, instead of doing what a good player would do (demorphing losing 25% of cost the losing all the corrutpors to blink stalkers which can hunt down any retreating unit), that I can get all the money back from the morphing broodlord? thx. didn't know this.
note: i'm being sarcastic about the fact that by playing badly you are rewarded more than playing good. on a serious note though, thx for the tip i didn't know that, this case works similar to banelings as well i suppose, so demorphing banelings being atked by lings is bad.
the only change i agree with is when a pylon is sniped to not reset warpgate CD. seems like the other changes reduce the chance of a comeback when your in a bad position. if anything the game needs more mechanics to help the player whose on the loosing side not mechanics to make the guy with the advantage instantly win for doing something small.
On July 05 2011 05:20 Lennon wrote: Let's say it's mid-game and I'm warping in 7 stalkers to reinforce a 7gate push. 1x Stalker = 125/50 (min/gas) 7x Stalker = 875/350
That's 975/350 loss including the pylon. There's no reinforcement so the push is likely to fail and another 875/350 has to be spent at my base to rebuild those 7 stalkers again as well as waiting 32 seconds for the cooldown. That's ridiculously harsh just for a pylon snipe.
Harsh, but unwarranted? I mean, if you're greedy enough to put up a naked pylon and pray that the other player DOESN'T snipe it, doesn't that mean you're just basing the attack off of luck anyways?
Do you deserve such a safety net? I mean, if you are, in the example, 7 gate pressuring/all in ing. If you left some units to protect your pylon it wouldn't have happened anyway, while it would have weakened your push.
Other races deal with this the hard way by getting their reinforcements blocked off and sniped, Warpgate in itself is worth the units to protect a pylon or a Warp Prism, isn't it?
the game is balanced around the warp in mechanic already, so you cant just say protoss doesnt have to worry about reinforcements getting picked off. thats why gateway units are so freaking weak
Hm I agree that there should be some consequence to losing warping in units when the pylon dies, my 2 cents on the matter would be this:
1. Make Warp-ins cancel-able -> returns 75% resources and resets warpgate cool down. As you can use warping in units to block and they negate rush distance having the same cancel penalty as a building seems fair. Alternatively some rebate amount based on the damage taken of the warping in unit would be good so that you could cancel that zealot you warped in to block your ramp but the damage it absorbed would cost you. More complicated though.
2. On warp in pylon death, 100% resources returned for cancelled unit same as for a terran building however warpgate cool down not reset, you lost the pylon which was acting as your production facility, you shouldn't have that production available again instantly.
I think this would be a good middle ground, if you make a stupid warp in choice you have the ability to cancel it at a slight resource hit and get your cool downs back but if your pylon gets snipped you're punished for making bad choice.
Warping in Stalkers with Warp Prism is annoying terrible. The Stalker warp in size is bigger than zealot/sentry, so it's really hard to place more than one-two stalkers depending on how your pylon power/warp prism power is placed.
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
people don't give respect to opinions they think are inferior to theirs. It's the nature of video games, if they aren't as good as you or agree with you, then they are deemed noob and can never speak again.
as far as ramps, Tal`Darim altar does not have ramps leading into the main and there are other GSL maps that do not have ramps.
Opinions don't deserve respect. Ever. Anyone who believes that is terribly deluded. Seven year old children have opinions on Santa Claus. Creationists have opinions on evolution. Homeopaths have opinion on pharmacology. If anyone thinks opinions deserve respect, there's a reason they get none. Last I checked, facts matters, not the logical fallacy and Dunning-Kruger effect mashup that the average person posts on the internet.
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
people don't give respect to opinions they think are inferior to theirs. It's the nature of video games, if they aren't as good as you or agree with you, then they are deemed noob and can never speak again.
as far as ramps, Tal`Darim altar does not have ramps leading into the main and there are other GSL maps that do not have ramps.
Opinions don't deserve respect. Ever. Anyone who believes that is terribly deluded. Seven year old children have opinions on Santa Claus. Creationists have opinions on evolution. Homeopaths have opinion on pharmacology. If anyone thinks opinions deserve respect, there's a reason they get none. Last I checked, facts matters, not the logical fallacy and Dunning-Kruger effect mashup that the average person posts on the internet.
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
To the OPs side, I think it should be warp in time is reset but minerals or such are refunded by 80-75% return, maybe more people will learn not to warp on a pylon right next to a incoming force.
They should get the money back but warp time should not be reset. Consider if a Zerg cancels a building unit; they get the money back, but lose their larva and have to wait for more larva. If a Terran cancels a unit they get their money back, but the next time they build a unit it doesn't start out half-way done or whatever.
The mechanic is most fair if its full refund but you have to wait the normal time to make another unit.
On July 05 2011 07:13 L3gendary wrote: I think they should take out calldown supply. It's kind of silly when you think about it. Supply blocked? np
It "costs" 270 minerals since you lose a MULE, so it's not like it's a free unblock. While not getting blocked is arguably worth 270 minerals, it's not like it's viable to use calldown in any situation other than a highly specific build like iEchoic, or maybe if you're losing depots.
On July 05 2011 05:14 WniO wrote: i wish canceling an egg would transform it back into a larvae.. so many lost games because of this ): rax/gateways can cancel and instantly build the right unit, but for zerg you need to wait.
this was the case when starcraft 2 first came out, i think it was intended by blizzard but they didnt really think it through, so people did 6 pools with 5-6 larvas stacked up because they start building a OL and cancel once they get a new larva so they have alot of larva when pool is done.
Blizzard noted it as a bug when they fixed this "issue" tho, i beleive that this was just a design mistake, nog a bug
It seems like they could make it so that that larvae stacking thing wouldn't happen, rather restart the cooldown of the larva being make while giving back the initial larva. Meh.
I don't know if this is what was being addressed in the OP exactly, but having a sniped tech lab cancel the thor/battlecruiser/etc. That may be a little harsh though. I dunno.
I would like to have some sort of max unit selection.I think something between 30-45 units per hotkey would be great. I think it's a bit to "noob friendly" now if you can call it that, you have no limit in control groups and be able to have every single building on the same hotkey.
I want the "blip" sound back from BW when you tabbed between production facilitys. Would prefer how the "box" was in BW too. In BW it was just green edges and the box itself was just blank, in sc2 the whole box is some disgusting green shit.
I hope they will change the mouse cursors ingame too. As long as you don't play on a low resolution, your cursor is really small. And it looks horrible too.
Better unit movement, I hate the clumping unit balls.
Remove Xel'Nagas or at least make them dissapear after ~5 minutes.
And please, new sounds. The sc2 sounds is so bad. -_-
If everyone wants toss' warp in mechanic to not refund if losing a pylon, then so be it. But i'd like to see equal footing for all races. And no, telling me to kill your eggs will work is a complete joke. You lose ultra cavern? All your ultras are lost. None of this will even add to the game, only take it away.
This is a nice thread you've got, OP. Apparently we can't have 1 thread on tl without it turning into some kind of balance whine. Bravo, people.
Now, as far as things they should change, i'd like name changes.. I've been under the LaGTT tag for literally months and am not actually in the clan. It's annoying.. every other ladder game I get someone asking me if they can join, or they saw a game with x, or x bm'd them on the ladder 4 games ago. Being able to view replays with friends would be amazing. Some kind of replay sharing network within BNet .02 would be marvelous - i'm annoyed of having to open 1,000,000 folders (okay, not a million, 99,999) and do dragging/dropping. Wouldn't it be cool to mssg friends in chat to replays in a form of a link they can just click and download? Blizz has so much potential and many options here that they aren't utilizing. Probably too busy (re)counting their money.
EDIT: Ah, yes, and the post above i agree with - remove xel'naga towers.
Should we make Zerg cacoons have less armor so they can be sniped (and when sniped zerg lose the unit, no refund, etc) because "they shouldn't have build units so close to the enemy army"? Or for Terran, should we make it that units made from reactors or Tech labs are instantly destroyed when the addon is (no refund)? A warp-in being denied 6-10seconds and forced to warp-in futher away is already punishment enough.
EDIT:
And as the above poster said, so if you want to go down that route, should we make it if you lose a Spawning Pool/Infestation Pit/Spire/Ultra Cavern/etc then all units being made from that respective building should be destroyed and not refunded? I mean, clearly it was the Zergs fault for not placing the building in a smart location right?
On July 05 2011 07:13 L3gendary wrote: I think they should take out calldown supply. It's kind of silly when you think about it. Supply blocked? np
It "costs" 270 minerals since you lose a MULE, so it's not like it's a free unblock. While not getting blocked is arguably worth 270 minerals, it's not like it's viable to use calldown in any situation other than a highly specific build like iEchoic, or maybe if you're losing depots.
If you're arguing in that way it only 'costs' 170 minerals because you save 100 for not having to build a depot. You will also be able to mine longer at this base.
On topic: I just want map terrain fixed so units don't get stuck. Also I don't want 1 probe to mineralwalk through 4 of my probes blocking a ramp during a cannon rush.
On another note: Anyone know the exact reason why they removed phase cannons?
On another note: Anyone know the exact reason why they removed phase cannons?
Something to do with the spinecrawler. Too similar or the idea better fit Zerg. Phase Cannons would make me cry though, Cannon rushes would be ridiculous in PvP
On July 05 2011 05:04 Chocolate wrote: I just wish microing large armies took more skill, or more importantly, players had more of an incentive to micro. I have no idea how blizzard could implement this however.
good point and they could fix this by creating dynamic movements for each unit. instead of everything being so clumped up, thus making the "ball" so effective.
On another note: Anyone know the exact reason why they removed phase cannons?
Something to do with the spinecrawler. Too similar or the idea better fit Zerg. Phase Cannons would make me cry though, Cannon rushes would be ridiculous in PvP
About the "units warping in while pylon destroyed" refund thing, what if instead of cancelling the warp in, they finished warping in at the health they were at when the pylon was killed? That way the units aren't cancelled, the money is spent, but the units are weaker?
But honestly it doesnt seem like such a big deal to me.
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
people don't give respect to opinions they think are inferior to theirs. It's the nature of video games, if they aren't as good as you or agree with you, then they are deemed noob and can never speak again.
as far as ramps, Tal`Darim altar does not have ramps leading into the main and there are other GSL maps that do not have ramps.
Opinions don't deserve respect. Ever. Anyone who believes that is terribly deluded. Seven year old children have opinions on Santa Claus. Creationists have opinions on evolution. Homeopaths have opinion on pharmacology. If anyone thinks opinions deserve respect, there's a reason they get none. Last I checked, facts matters, not the logical fallacy and Dunning-Kruger effect mashup that the average person posts on the internet.
Good luck ever working on group projects.
Opinions don't deserve respect. People do. That's how group projects work.
On topic: I want SC2 to be slower generally. Not the game speed itself, but rather the way engagements work. I want to see that players have more time for tactical decisions and micro. And with that, I want units that would really profit from a reduced game speed (micro-intensive, sensible units).
It's like the equivalent of the absence of the "blob" in BW. When all your units weren't in one spot, there was actually time for a retreat or the possibility of microing single units. When an engagement was a mistake, one could retreat (now a fungal hits almost the whole army, same with storm or EMP), micro out of storms or w/e. It's something that would contribute to the depth of SC2 and take away some of its volatility (tbh I don't consider this a little thing because the impact would be huge; and I don't even know how this should be done by Blizzard. Maybe change unit pathing, as proposed before?).
On July 05 2011 10:08 Wipples wrote: About the "units warping in while pylon destroyed" refund thing, what if instead of cancelling the warp in, they finished warping in at the health they were at when the pylon was killed? That way the units aren't cancelled, the money is spent, but the units are weaker?
But honestly it doesnt seem like such a big deal to me.
It'd be funny if they warp in half done and look and act like "bitch Stewie" from family guy:D
As far as wg, remember you are talking about a pylon not a production building. Kill the warpgate and u have reset the cd (for those that compared killing pylons to killing barracks). Otherwise the punishment is too harsh. Also, there already is a penalty for losing a proxy pylon (however many secs warp in was going on + time it takes you to warp new units in + extra travel time). There's also a chance of losing warping units for full cost.
Besides, its already a pain to pull away from an important battle to warp in units, having to watch the pylon even more out of the fear of losing a ton of minerals is too much. Being forced to leave enough army to defend the pylon at all times will take too much away from the push.
For T, it wouldnt make any sense to lose $ for all cued units. The building hasnt used any resources to produce those units, why should their cost be lost. Assume that those in actual production been disassembled
To the general OP idea, does anyone remember a thread with a bunch of small bugs that were left in the game (some guy did an great job compiling them).. Would be nice to fix those. Someone suggested making upgraded units look scarier, that would be kinda cool too
p.s. it might seem cool to say opinions don't deserve respect but they do. I can respect your opinion but still disagree. So do beliefs, etc. Not using something in a scientific paper doesn't mean it doesnt deserve respect.
On July 05 2011 09:35 Termit wrote: I would like to have some sort of max unit selection.I think something between 30-45 units per hotkey would be great. I think it's a bit to "noob friendly" now if you can call it that, you have no limit in control groups and be able to have every single building on the same hotkey.
I want the "blip" sound back from BW when you tabbed between production facilitys. Would prefer how the "box" was in BW too. In BW it was just green edges and the box itself was just blank, in sc2 the whole box is some disgusting green shit.
I hope they will change the mouse cursors ingame too. As long as you don't play on a low resolution, your cursor is really small. And it looks horrible too.
Better unit movement, I hate the clumping unit balls.
Remove Xel'Nagas or at least make them dissapear after ~5 minutes.
And please, new sounds. The sc2 sounds is so bad. -_-
Oh man I so agree with this, I loved hear the death screeches of a bazillion units... it was just so much more dramatic, not a little pithy pumpf when a stalker explodes, I wanna hear the friggin apocalypse from that little DT in a shell!
Don't make god damn workers slide when u hit hold position. Make them actually able to just stop and hold god damn position instantly like every other unit in the game so i can actually stop lings running into my base while forge FE'ing -.-;;;;
Removing attack priorities. It's dumb that void-rays auto-target hydras when zerg goes for a hydra/roach army. Let the units attack the first thing in sight.
On July 05 2011 09:35 Termit wrote: I would like to have some sort of max unit selection.I think something between 30-45 units per hotkey would be great. I think it's a bit to "noob friendly" now if you can call it that, you have no limit in control groups and be able to have every single building on the same hotkey.
...............
Wait, you can hotkey more than 24 units to a control group?
large army fight its the main issue in my opinion in bw it was so fun to split armies and micro them , all around, without loosing too many efectivity, now is ball, vs ball, the bigger and the better wins, with no micro whatsoever. i also think it has to do with the units, all unit in sc2 are dumb units that require less micro than their bw counterpart, example, reaver replaced with collosus, lurker removed, defiler removed and instead we get infestor. you see all sc2 units and they are not complex to use, even banelings that require a little more , are easy piece compared to units in bw. i think sc2 will not have a fix since it have mistakes in elemental levels.
On July 05 2011 10:03 Boony wrote: How about when you kill a hatch all the larva dies and all spawning eggs.
You might have a point, this guy has pointed out that if you lose a pylon you shouldn't get refunded(as in you've used up the production cycles, not the resources), and that if you lose a factory you lose the ability to make mech units etc.
Every race has a loss from losing a production facility that is instant, but zerg eggs/larva stay behind until the creep disappears(and units keep building even if you lose the tech), leaving time to use them up or build another hatchery.
If you're talking from a purely spectator perspective, losing forward pylons is already pretty bad, it delays timings (4/6 gate etc) by quite a bit in most cases which means the damage is already done, taking away all those resources is basically putting someone behind so much that they've just opened themselves up to being attacked due to a weaker army and makes the game incredibly one sided which is boring.
Personally, I like watching games where it comes down to the players own ability, not because the other player got lucky and sniped a pylon.
1.the larva spawn position, drones travel longer to mineral patch(if it is not at 6 oclock) than scv/probe.
2.correct the roach movement speed upgrade and tunneling claw icons.
3.unit priority ai need some twist, i am sick of 30lings auto attack 1 zealot standing at the mineral line, not that i dont know how to press H but i still think that they use one set of unit priority attack list on all units in sc2 is simply 'WTF'. i facepalm when i have 30lings and can not break the wall if the toss has nice simcity with only ONE cannon.
4.does drone attack animation get fix yet?
5.identical base area in map design - creep tumour spread is not even when you are spawned at certain position on different maps.
Replay: 1.let us watch replay together!!! 2.when you watch replay the 'scv/probe/drone ready' warning is a SCV icon. or the food supply icon is default to SCV icon. 3.there is no worker idle icon show up in replay
Being able to cancel Nydus. Because placing one, and tadam, you know it won't finish the instant you place it, but you can't cancel it so you have to watch 100 gas go for nothing.
Maybe they should make it so that when you lose overlords and go over supply cap your most recent units go rogue/unresponsive and attack any nearby units.
Terran units can slowly die of attrition when overcap.
Protoss units can lose the ability to attack and have their shields drain to 0.
My point is, you can only punish a player so much before it starts to get absurd. Suggesting that Protoss players lose all of their resources + warp gate cooldown when a pylon supporting the warp in is destroyed can very easily be game ending. Especially since you can't cancel units once the warp is started. Pylons are already much more fragile in SC2 with 200/200 instead of 300/300.
Got a few more that I'd like to see personally: Changing time so that faster = normal real life time in multiplayer. I'd also love to see DPS stats for units ingame. Seems much easier than 12 dmg 2 shots 1.41 speed...
Lol what a joke, Blizzard will never nerf pylon warp-ins like that, it's literally not even worth discussing. People already complain that P sits back and turtles, now with the possibility of just instantly losing a pylon and 1000 resources worth of units in a timing attack we would never do anything. Especially TvP where marauders can kill pylons in a second.
Remove abilities that limit micro like fungal growth (already quite a stupid spell, watching infestors versus terran makes me wince so badly. even if you EMP 15, if 3 are still alive your marines are fucked), concussive shell (huge risk moving out any stalker to try and scout anything the terran is doing since if you lose an early stalker you're in a horrible position), and forcefields. Buff other units instead. Buff health so units last longer and can actually be micro'd. PvP is retarded but at least the micro is interesting to watch because the units last for a long time against each other, opposed to ball vs. ball a-move. Generally the better player wins in that scenarios opposed to "lol I caught your army out of position, enjoy everything dying in 3 seconds"
On July 05 2011 11:58 iamho wrote: +50% on hitpoints of all units. Easy fix to make sc2 more watchable. Also fix the zerg sounds.. a year and I still cannot stand that voice.
more hp for all units? isnt that what war3 was like? units fighting forever and nobody dying?
I get your point but I dont agree. I think it's fine the way it is. same goes for upgrades for example. if the building is kicked you get your money back. its the same for every race and I think its better than losing the money, you lost the building and that by itself throws you back enough! greetings
On July 05 2011 06:10 iNSiPiD1 wrote: I came to this thread thinking I'd be able to read about little changes people would like to see made to our game, and instead it's just people (most likely toss players) arguing against the OPs changes. Remember people, this is HIS OPINION, why can't you give it the respect it deserves? You can start debating the hell out of this the day Blizzard says they're going to implement it.
I'd like to see a map in the map pool that's a 2 or 4 player map in the pool which is not symmetrical. I know it'll never happen, but one can dream.
Furthermore, I wish there were a way to balance the game without the need for little ramps at the front of every base. (I know why they are there, I'm just saying)
people don't give respect to opinions they think are inferior to theirs. It's the nature of video games, if they aren't as good as you or agree with you, then they are deemed noob and can never speak again.
as far as ramps, Tal`Darim altar does not have ramps leading into the main and there are other GSL maps that do not have ramps.
Opinions don't deserve respect. Ever. Anyone who believes that is terribly deluded. Seven year old children have opinions on Santa Claus. Creationists have opinions on evolution. Homeopaths have opinion on pharmacology. If anyone thinks opinions deserve respect, there's a reason they get none. Last I checked, facts matters, not the logical fallacy and Dunning-Kruger effect mashup that the average person posts on the internet.
I hope you're kidding. We don't have the answer to every question. We don't have the foresight to know the effect of every change we make. We are, as of right now, totally incapable of knowing all the facts.
Every single "fact" ever produced was at one time an opinion. It was a belief that a person felt strongly about and through experimentation, or analysis it became a fact. Think about all the times a brilliant person (especially in the sciences) came up with a novel idea that went against the "facts" of the time. Those people were often killed or chastised, even though they were right.
You're confusing a genuine opinion with one that contradicts a "fact". In that sense you're right, that opinion is incorrect. However, to do as you say and ignore all opinions is an extraordinarily dangerous prospect, and I wish you would reconsider what you said.
Just consider the field of medicine to see how important an opinion really is (until all the "facts" are known).
On July 05 2011 13:07 iokke wrote: Got a few more that I'd like to see personally: Changing time so that faster = normal real life time in multiplayer. I'd also love to see DPS stats for units ingame. Seems much easier than 12 dmg 2 shots 1.41 speed...
The value of the 12 dmg 2 shots 1.41 speed is that it tells you how much the opponents armor upgrade will affect your units damage dealing - it won't be nearly as clear if you used DPS. Blizzard actually chose the better of the two options imho...
Balls Your balls vs my balls gets very stale after a few months.
Improved(?) AI A-move are too powerful and boring to watch. The commentator can scream every time about which units are killing which unit, great colossi positioning etc etc. But the truth is, most of them were done automatically.
We are listening. No you are not! How many time have you heard from the top pros that SC2 controls were simplified? My Answer: Too many, name a few: July/Nada/exWC3 Blizz PR Answer: Dunno, but we are listening.
Do people really need a simpler game? Cristiano Ronaldo plays football at a pro level and he enjoys it. Meanwhile in the playground of a small UK town, a bunch of 10 year olds are happily playing the same game and enjoy it very much although they are not exactly pros. You don't need to change the game. People will find their own ways to enjoy it.
Why wouldn't you get back the money for something that dosen't even started to being built? For example if you want to build one own house, and prepeare to gather the materials ( you didn't bought anything yet ) then a earthquake destroyes the whole city, vulcan next its ruins start spreading lava, do you lose money for the materials, that you didn't even bought and didn't even started to build it together?
I definitely agree with the changes to warping in units. It's totally stupid that you can just warp in units in your opponents face and if he snipes the pylon you just warp in at the second pylon in this area without any losses. I also agree on losing the money for unfinished units and upgrades in terran production facilities.
On July 05 2011 05:08 Eleaven wrote: Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
I LOVE watching all Protoss MUs. Best of all, PvP. And Blink Stalkers in PvZ.....awwww so awesome! Now thats micro, and not that stutter step thing, even Muhammad Ali could do.
On July 05 2011 05:08 Eleaven wrote: Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
I LOVE watching all Protoss MUs. Best of all, PvP. And Blink Stalkers in PvZ.....awwww so awesome! Now thats micro, and not that stutter step thing, even Muhammad Ali could do.
First, the Pylon Splice: (Insert picture of a dozen gateway unit being warped in just as their pylon is destroyed)
One thing many a play may not know about killing pylon power providers as units are being warped in is that the Protoss player losing their units is fully refunded for their loss.
In an awkward turn of fate, or even a purposeful ruse, Protoss players not only get refunded the full worth of their units being warped in, they also get their warp in cooldown set to 0 so that they can rewarp in the units they've just lost.
I didn't even know this... I always thought I was doing huge damage by killing the warp-in pylon.
Lets see the OP suggests nerfing protoss and terran. I wonder what race he plays. I could see maybe getting rid of the WG cooldown reset. Whatever happened to the units taking extra damage while warping in? Was that removed or was that just a myth?
I think Protoss should definitely lose the cooldown if the powering pylon dies. I mean, didn't you already start the warp in? There needs to be some disadvantage to warping in. If you want to give Protoss a buff somewhere else then fine. It makes sense on a mechanics level and it makes sense on a spectator level.
Some others have said this wouldn't add tension. You are so wrong. For a long time I thought killing the Pylon did waste the cooldown, so when I tried to focus down such a Pylon it was very tense. "Please die, please die, almost got it..." Now that I discovered it doesn't do much it's not nearly as fun. Sure it's nice to kill a proxy Pylon regardless, but there should be some risk to it.
I always assumed you lost all the money from units lost in a pylon splice... that kinda pisses me off that they get the money AND cooldown reset. In fact, that's just plain stupid.
I understand the return of money in a destroyed building, as the units that are being queued haven't even started constuction. I do wish that any unit currently being constructed wouldn't give off refunds, but it's not that big of a deal to me.
Not to completely poo poo all over this thread but there are just SOOOOOO many things that blizzard needs to fix. I can probably name off a couple hundred incudling Bnet2 and the game itself.
But to go with the op. I would completely disagree with the Pylon Splicing its completely fair that if those units don't get warped in they get refunded.
The factory change would be alright... but i dont know anyone at high levels who is queing up 5 thors when mutas are sniping it... And im 99% sure you are wrong that you were refunded in bw for Units but not upgrades if it were too die. And i'm pretty sure that same thing carried over to sc2. I've had my tech lab with stim upgrading and killed and didn't get refunded.
On July 05 2011 05:08 Eleaven wrote: Nobody seems to enjoy TvP ZvP or PvP therefore just remove protoss.
If you say "sc2" to somebody quite new, chances are they think of tvz, battle of micro and positioning and army trades.. rather than pvz or pvt where its "lol ill just wait for 20 mins till max"
No idea how to make protoss more enjoyable to watch though I random and always enjoy PvX(relaxing change of pace) but never enjoy XvP (frantic game of trying to do damage before its too late).
Damn this is quite balance whiney actually =-\ but the concern is genuine, i dont really know anybody who enjoys watching the protoss matchups, to the point where people actively stop watching tournaments when a P is playing
On July 06 2011 04:34 TranceKuja wrote: Lets see the OP suggests nerfing protoss and terran. I wonder what race he plays. I could see maybe getting rid of the WG cooldown reset. Whatever happened to the units taking extra damage while warping in? Was that removed or was that just a myth?
I plainly stated that I'm a protoss player... neither are nerfs, the Macro Factory is a hoax, as you would have learned if you READ the thing...
I would love it if there were little things like the OP said that made the game more punishing and challenging to those who macro poorly.
I feel the game hinges too much on early game play, and poor macro isn't really as punishable as it should be. There are way too many games I play where I should lose because the opponent contains me as Zerg, or I lose BOTH my lair and hatchery and I'm revealed for the full minute I have no bases, and I make 4 mutas and make a comeback because the 1 base Terran all-in with banshees didn't know how to expand, and I think to myself "I should leave, but since I'm in Diamond, I'm pretty sure my opponent doesn't know how to expand or macro and I still have a chance"
On July 05 2011 05:20 Percutio wrote: I really don't agree with any of these points and I'm a long time BW spectator.
There are a lot of other nuances within the game that create tension and make BW amazing to watch. Unit and upgrade canceling is not one of those that is worth adding for spectating pleasure when compared to the impact on the players.
so basically, no refund on all queued/processing units when buildings die? thats just harsh.
its bad enough to delay reinforcement (purposely sniping pylon). just because its 100% refund does not mean it did 0 damage (think forcing hatch/cc/nexus cancel, its more than just 25% minerals). during the delay, you can re-position your army, kill much as you can then run, siege your tanks, etc.
there are other things to worry about:
high ground advantage (as spectator) unit balling (as spectator) replay share
and most importantly: custom games, make them create-able with a name like in BW. i'd like to make a game "1:1 ZvP Master Only" instead of joining a custom with a map i want and play against a bronze. only option atm is joining a channel. the current system is blatantly retarded.
I agree with the Macro Factory and the Warp-In Refunds. Considering that most top level Protosses put down a path of pylons on their way to your base anyway, Pylon Sniping should be a more-used mechanic. Currently, sniping the pylon forces a retreat of about 10 seconds while he is forced to warp in from his NEXT closest pylon. It would also give Protosses an actual incentive to defend their forward pylons, not just pray they don't get sniped. Being punished for being greedy with one's attack should be a given.
PS. People who think it's harsh should play Brood War.
On July 06 2011 11:13 HuckOrris wrote: I think it would be nuts to see formations available, like in Age of Empires. it would kinda make splash units suck, and micro too easy.
It would make micro too easy? Er, I guess it would in that you'd be able to micro more, but wouldn't that also create a higher skill ceiling at the same time for those who can micro very, very well? Formations certainly didn't hold Warcraft III back, in any case.
On July 06 2011 04:34 TranceKuja wrote: Lets see the OP suggests nerfing protoss and terran. I wonder what race he plays. I could see maybe getting rid of the WG cooldown reset. Whatever happened to the units taking extra damage while warping in? Was that removed or was that just a myth?
I definitely agree with you that protoss player should lose every single bit of money that they have invested in warping in unit that died. It will make protoss player consider where they want to warp in more. But seriously, no penalty at all? That pretty rediculas....
You seem to not understand a lot of the fundamentals of this game and probably shouldn't be making a thread like this...
For example, guardian shield is pretty specifically designed to only mitigate ranged attacks, not melee attacks. It's not some bug that it doesn't mitigate melee damage from units like zerglings.
Another example is the pylon power refunding warping in units.... if this made you lose the cost of the units or the cooldown this would make this extremely imbalanced in favor of zerg and terran since neither of them really have anything comparitively that allows their units to be killed while being built and are instead completely safe.... The only thing close is eggs for zerg but they have 10 armor and are thus almost 100% impossible to kill. as opposed to a flimsy pylon that can be sniped easily
On July 06 2011 12:14 -orb- wrote: if this made you lose the cost of the units or the cooldown this would make this extremely imbalanced in favor of zerg and terran since neither of them really have anything comparitively that allows their units to be killed while being built and are instead completely safe.... The only thing close is eggs for zerg but they have 10 armor and are thus almost 100% impossible to kill. as opposed to a flimsy pylon that can be sniped easily
I suppose that's the risk you have to take when you have the ability to warp in units anywhere on the map for 100 minerals. Perhaps if Blizzard balanced Gateways to be more productive than Warp Gates, people would start using those more and use Warp Gates only for helping the front. That's how I imagined Warp Gates as from the start years ago -- just there to fortify the front and back to Gateways for normal macro.
On July 06 2011 12:14 -orb- wrote: if this made you lose the cost of the units or the cooldown this would make this extremely imbalanced in favor of zerg and terran since neither of them really have anything comparitively that allows their units to be killed while being built and are instead completely safe.... The only thing close is eggs for zerg but they have 10 armor and are thus almost 100% impossible to kill. as opposed to a flimsy pylon that can be sniped easily
I suppose that's the risk you have to take when you have the ability to warp in units anywhere on the map for 100 minerals. Perhaps if Blizzard balanced Gateways to be more productive than Warp Gates, people would start using those more and use Warp Gates only for helping the front. That's how I imagined Warp Gates as from the start years ago -- just there to fortify the front and back to Gateways for normal macro.
that's a more common suggestion that is actually intelligent that a lot of people have been asking for for ages, blizzard just clearly doesn't care or doesn't agree... either way it's bad for us :\
In regards to the Warp-In units cancel thing, IMO a nice change would be the units getting refunded but warpgate cooldown not getting reset. Would probably help alot in PvP har har.
I wanna see larva back in units tab :[, in response to making SC2 less forgiving, yes I would like that. Stuff like buildings that are upgrading/building getting sniped not refunded resources don't effect the noobs to much but help raise the skill cap.
On July 06 2011 04:34 TranceKuja wrote: Lets see the OP suggests nerfing protoss and terran. I wonder what race he plays. I could see maybe getting rid of the WG cooldown reset. Whatever happened to the units taking extra damage while warping in? Was that removed or was that just a myth?
I plainly stated that I'm a protoss player... neither are nerfs, the Macro Factory is a hoax, as you would have learned if you READ the thing...
The pylon thing is a nerf. It makes protoss weaker. Your suggestion that when a production building is destroyed that player loses 100% of the resources invested in the units in queue is also a nerf to both terran and protoss. It makes terran and protoss weaker. If you are a protoss player that's fine but I don't recall reading that in your OP. If it's in there somewhere then my bad.
On July 05 2011 05:10 Animostas wrote: In Brood War you didn't lose money for units queued up.
I'd like it if you could give a replay example in which kiling the Pylon while units were being warped in is a huge concern. In my opinion if you didn't let the Warpgate cooldown reset/refund money, it'd make PvP even more fragile than it already is.
No, that would mean less 4 gate because of the non-refunded money if they were to lose that proxy pylon while being aggressive.
I think it's alright if they get the refund but protoss should have to wait for the warp in cooldown Because the warp-in tech is like larva(building multiple units at once) and when zerg cancels they don't auto get their larva back.
On July 06 2011 12:41 nakedsurfer wrote: I think it's alright if they get the refund but protoss should have to wait for the warp in cooldown Because the warp-in tech is like larva(building multiple units at once) and when zerg cancels they don't auto get their larva back.
This would be reasonable. Also if a unit in queue is canceled then that unit has to be built over from scratch. This would make the warp-in mechanic on par with larva as well as production buildings.
Increase mining time 75%, and 8 minerals returned per trip. Its the same mining rate but workers will glitch out after 1 worker per patch rather than patiently waiting for their turn thereby making it useful to have more than 3 expansions and early expansions will make a bigger difference.
1-2 base timings will be weaker. Having more than 3 bases will actually allow for more income. Early expansions will provide more income.
On July 05 2011 04:59 ShatterZer0 wrote: First, the Pylon Splice: (Insert picture of a dozen gateway unit being warped in just as their pylon is destroyed)
One thing many a play may not know about killing pylon power providers as units are being warped in is that the Protoss player losing their units is fully refunded for their loss.
In an awkward turn of fate, or even a purposeful ruse, Protoss players not only get refunded the full worth of their units being warped in, they also get their warp in cooldown set to 0 so that they can rewarp in the units they've just lost.
I for one feel that this is too forgiving for the Protoss player losing the pylon, the crowd should be able to ROAR at the instant evaporation of a dozen stalkers aborted in transit, not stare as the Protoss player purposefully snipes his/her own pylon to warp in their units to their currently being harassed base.
This would be pretty awesome if it actually happened.
I was going to say exactly this, if I ever see a Protoss player snipe their own pylon in time to cancel a warp-in and warp-in back at their base in time to make it useful against the drop, I will be ROARING at the amount of skill, speed, and precision required to decide and then implement this in the 5 seconds units take to warp-in.
Another example is the pylon power refunding warping in units.... if this made you lose the cost of the units or the cooldown this would make this extremely imbalanced in favor of zerg and terran since neither of them really have anything comparitively that allows their units to be killed while being built and are instead completely safe.... The only thing close is eggs for zerg but they have 10 armor and are thus almost 100% impossible to kill. as opposed to a flimsy pylon that can be sniped easily
Ty Orb, this is exactly what I was going to say. Also, It seems that T and Z should be focusing on the units that are warping in as it is free damage anyways.
For the people that said the Pylon mechanic should be on par with Z larva, are you serious? P has expensive units compared to everyone else and is only limited on the amount of gates that they have. While the Z can mass produce units very quickly.
On July 05 2011 04:59 ShatterZer0 wrote: TL;DR? What suggestions do you have for making Starcraft 2's spectator experience richer than it already is, without actually changing any of it's units or building's stats or purposes? How do you feel about making Starcraft 2 less forgiving?
Great writeup. I don't want to say make starcraft 2 more forgiving and leave it as a general rule. Chronoboost, warpins, and spawn larva made tech switches ridiculously fast and it's something that a lot of players look down on because it doesn't give players time to react. Rush or be rushed :/
On July 06 2011 12:14 -orb- wrote: You seem to not understand a lot of the fundamentals of this game and probably shouldn't be making a thread like this...
For example, guardian shield is pretty specifically designed to only mitigate ranged attacks, not melee attacks. It's not some bug that it doesn't mitigate melee damage from units like zerglings.
Another example is the pylon power refunding warping in units.... if this made you lose the cost of the units or the cooldown this would make this extremely imbalanced in favor of zerg and terran since neither of them really have anything comparitively that allows their units to be killed while being built and are instead completely safe.... The only thing close is eggs for zerg but they have 10 armor and are thus almost 100% impossible to kill. as opposed to a flimsy pylon that can be sniped easily
He's referring to the fact that Roaches have melee attacks (aswell as their ranged) and when the zealots get close enough, they switch to their melee animations and the mitigation from Guardian Shield doesn't occur anymore.
NOTE: Not sure if it's true, but that's what OP was saying.
Oh yeah, one more thing: Give us the option to change the minimap so your opponents are red without using ALT + F so you are green and they are red. Why would they not make this possible when it already is in BW? -_-
On July 06 2011 12:56 sluggaslamoo wrote: Increase mining time 75%, and 8 minerals returned per trip. Its the same mining rate but workers will glitch out after 1 worker per patch rather than patiently waiting for their turn thereby making it useful to have more than 3 expansions and early expansions will make a bigger difference.
1-2 base timings will be weaker. Having more than 3 bases will actually allow for more income. Early expansions will provide more income.
Oh and option for BW sounds.
I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about it, but some kind of "buff" to multi-base play, and a nerf to rush and all in's would be amazing.
On July 06 2011 12:14 -orb- wrote:Another example is the pylon power refunding warping in units.... if this made you lose the cost of the units or the cooldown this would make this extremely imbalanced in favor of zerg and terran since neither of them really have anything comparitively that allows their units to be killed while being built and are instead completely safe.... The only thing close is eggs for zerg but they have 10 armor and are thus almost 100% impossible to kill. as opposed to a flimsy pylon that can be sniped easily
Neither of those races can spawn their reinforcements on any part of the map though and you can always warp in at a safe pylon. It's not like when you are warping in opposing forces will come out of nowhere and snipe that Pylon because that's very unlikely. The way you can warp in offesinvely right now without having to fear losing at least the warp in cool down is completely ridiculous. On maps like Shakuras where the map gets split mid to late game it's completely impossible to attack without the Protoss player being able to instantly reinforce at the fighting location. This change wouldn't actually prevent that but it would make it a little bit more difficult and even for both players. Also this would help to balance early rushes which are still a problem.
On July 05 2011 13:07 iokke wrote: Got a few more that I'd like to see personally: Changing time so that faster = normal real life time in multiplayer. I'd also love to see DPS stats for units ingame. Seems much easier than 12 dmg 2 shots 1.41 speed...
Exactly.
The game time should be real time for normal ladder play.
Also the damage per shot confuses a lot of players as they don't consider the damage speed. Dps is more important, even though damage per shot is important for considering armor effects.
On July 06 2011 13:52 weaknurse wrote: Non-3D Menu backgrounds. Sick of our cards getting fried before we even join a game.
Blizzard should change the lobby system. Its really annoying when someone leaves in a custom and you have to load the game all the way just to go back to the main menu. The countdown should just stop and wait for someone new to join.. they should have fixed this super long ago!
I and 99% of community agree with the OP's points. I'm surprised they didn't change those after the first beta-feedbacks. The fact that those things still aren't implemented blows my mind. It's just so much better for the competitive side of the game.
These mechanics had much potential for tactical savvy in BW. SC2 has implemented a cosy, forgiving refund for such mistakes.
Warp-in is especially galling. The first time I saw 5 stalkers explode on warp-in I was incredibly satisfied with my tactical prowess. When I learned that all I had achieved was a slight delay in production, I realized risking your units to cut incoming warp-ins was almost never worth it.
The "forgiving gameplay" concept has it's place in a game like WoW, whose aim is to keep players happy, relaxed and paying subscriptions. It is anathema to e-sports.
On July 05 2011 05:58 Necosarius wrote: Change the unit pathing or whatever it's called. I'm tired of ball vs ball.
change this = hello BW = lose alot of casual gamers.
im sorry, i know there are a lot of bw fans thinking bw is the only thing viable of being called e-sports, skill with 500 apm games for microing your army and whatever.
but i for one felt bw was "clunky" and "old" because of things like the pathing ai and it completely turned me away from bw.
sc2 is a great game and core things like the pathing ai should never ever be touched. bw is still around if you enjoy it.
one thing to improve spectating would be to see an overview of what buildings and how many of each building a player has got, in a tab fornat like the units tab.
These mechanics had much potential for tactical savvy in BW. SC2 has implemented a cosy, forgiving refund for such mistakes.
Warp-in is especially galling. The first time I saw 5 stalkers explode on warp-in I was incredibly satisfied with my tactical prowess. When I learned that all I had achieved was a slight delay in production, I realized risking your units to cut incoming warp-ins was almost never worth it.
The "forgiving gameplay" concept has it's place in a game like WoW, whose aim is to keep players happy, relaxed and paying subscriptions. It is anathema to e-sports.
The "Macro factory" thing was around in SC:BW. You WOULD get all the money back from queued units.
And the same for upgrades.
So, the "forgiving gameplay", the "anathema to e-sports" was in BW. Shocking, I know.
I LOV3 WATCHING protoss man its freaking amazing since they are very fragile early game and seeing those blinks, dt´s storms, colossi....
And the pylon is completely balanced since the units have not been made they are being produced same as when making marines tanks, you loose your factory and barracks all refunded. One thing when you look at gates and building warp in it keeps warping in after you loose your pylon why shouldn´t units do the same ?
EDIT: yes im Protoss and yes i know this is all just a whine about P but cmon whats so hard making billion marauderes and waiting for stim then destroy the P and call it a good timing :D. People who hate on P call it easy why don´t you play it ? BECAUSE YOu DONT WANT TO or just bad playing it...
I wish Blizzard would stop treating us like 12 year olds. I want to see my losses, I want to know my MMR, I want to know my rank compared to all players. Let us choose who we play and on what maps we play. Actually, just go back to Bnet 1.0.
Yes, I know it seems really minor and trivial, but PvP Colossus Wars bug the shit out of me, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they made Colossi fire bypass Guardian shield completely. Changing this would only effect the mirror matchup, but I think it could still have a beneficial impact--a 4 Colossus ball firing into a guardian shield would be doing 8 damage less per shot to every single target, which would help tremendously with the "Colossus melt all gateway units once you hit critical mass thing." Everyone knows PvP is whack, and this change would only manifest in PvP.
I wish Blizzard would stop treating us like 12 year olds. I want to see my losses, I want to know my MMR, I want to know my rank compared to all players. Let us choose who we play and on what maps we play. Actually, just go back to Bnet 1.0.
wait, get rid of matchmaking? are you serious? I can get wanting to see losses and shit (though why that matters if you're sub-masters is beyond me) but revert to the days when players had to manually hunt for a decent match and hope for the best? no, thats bullshit. bnet 2.0 has definite problems, but the fact that i can log on, push a button, and play someone of roughly my skill level is definitely not one of them.
in fact, I'd go so far as to say your proposal would pretty much destroy sc2.
On July 05 2011 05:58 Necosarius wrote: Change the unit pathing or whatever it's called. I'm tired of ball vs ball.
change this = hello BW = lose alot of casual gamers.
im sorry, i know there are a lot of bw fans thinking bw is the only thing viable of being called e-sports, skill with 500 apm games for microing your army and whatever.
but i for one felt bw was "clunky" and "old" because of things like the pathing ai and it completely turned me away from bw.
sc2 is a great game and core things like the pathing ai should never ever be touched. bw is still around if you enjoy it.
one thing to improve spectating would be to see an overview of what buildings and how many of each building a player has got, in a tab fornat like the units tab.
i disagree, at least for zerg you dont need any special micro, just few good move commands and a-moves, if u built enough drones early game and had enough stuff you won if not you lost, there is no "i have better micro maybe i can make comeback" thing if there is show me replay/vod pls (i dont care about bane vs bane or 5 zergling vs 5 zergling i mean mid/late game)
ironically its so hard and time consuming to micro in sc2 because units have auto-cluming auto-surrounds, and forcing to do different is mostly a wasted time, i know zerg is supposed to be macro heavy, micro light race, but its absurd that most games depends on how many "d" you press
also it deceiving to casual viewer who is not familiar how much is done by game/ai itself and not player, kinda sad
yes i always thought it is to forgiving to get refunded and a cooldown reset if the pylon is taken down. It looks way cooler if a pylon goes down and all the units just poof again, but you know that this just hurt you more then the opponent lol. But upgrades etc shouldn't be punished to hard, especially since it will hurt the slow armys more (generally the terran the most and they are the weakest anyway ^.^ (kidding with the weakest) ). But i would add a small benefit for people who are able to cancel their upgrades units before destruction (but wouldn't go higher then a 25% loss of ressources on a cancel). But since you often have to move your army and all the stuff (that was the intention of all the macro changes, enable you to stay with your army full time and make armys way more deadly if the opponent isn't paying attention and making micro way harder, which they did achieve very well).
Also it has been discussed already and nothing happened, so i don't think blizzard intents to change this without an expansion ^.^ . Maybe in the last ... (but they clearly focus on making every unit more effectiv if its player controlled ^.^ wisely)
oh and dps is totally unimportant as there is armor ... yay i have 2 units with 10 dps but why does on unit only does 5 damage while the other does 9. Damage per attack is the most important damage stat as it shows you how much attacks you need for the opponents unit. dps is something for the lil mmos that have no real depth when it comes to combat.
On July 08 2011 21:59 awesomoecalypse wrote: I wish Guardian shield effected Colossus fire.
Yes, I know it seems really minor and trivial, but PvP Colossus Wars bug the shit out of me, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they made Colossi fire bypass Guardian shield completely. Changing this would only effect the mirror matchup, but I think it could still have a beneficial impact--a 4 Colossus ball firing into a guardian shield would be doing 8 damage less per shot to every single target, which would help tremendously with the "Colossus melt all gateway units once you hit critical mass thing." Everyone knows PvP is whack, and this change would only manifest in PvP.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This by far I think is a great idea.
I would also love to see my dear lurks back in HOTS, 150/150 research on the den, you can have the banelings, I'd rather have SOME kind of defensive unit that can help hold a line, other than the final units (which need guarding themselves.) I still feel that they purposely took lurkers out, just so they could put them in HOTS, so people will buy it.
What really Grinds My Gears though is the high ground factor. "You can shoot from high ground and your units can't be fired upon at all if they don't have sight!" sounds great on paper, but that only means they need to see you, which just about any damn player does because its suicide not to, please bring back that 33% miss chance. I would also really like to know if anyone knows why they even took out the old high ground mechanic, it helped a lot, ESPECIALLY AGAINST SIEGE UNITS. which now completely obliterate when they get against a cliff.
DINAMICH pathing = OFF... bring bw pathing game will be 10 time bether... end
and for casual gamers (i dont think that sc2 will lose them) becous of this change... but blizzard can
put turn ON or turn OFF on dinamic pathing...So if you play at pro lvl you will play bether with turn OFF dinamic pathing... and if you are bronze you dont need to turn off to play ...
so if casual game whont to become bether player he can turn OFF dinamic pathing... and if he whont to stay in BRONZE than he can play with turned ON.. .END
Pylon sniping should refund money, but not reset the cooldown.
Macro factory should remain the same as it is now due to the fact that the player has to take the time to remake the buildings. That is enough of a penalty.
woah, the zerg melee one should DEFINETLY be fixed. blizzard has stated that the only difference between hydra and roaches ranged and melee attacks are the visual animations, and nothing else.
On July 05 2011 06:58 Chill wrote: BW was exactly the same as SC2 in terms of refunds: 100% on research cancel, 75% on building cancels, 100% on production when building is killed.
no fucking way. im gonna go test this now. edit: sry for double post o.o
I think Zerg lacks any "bullshit" builds like DTs or banshees, and if you go 'even deeper' things like 7 rax, double stargate, double factory reactor hellion, or massing t3 units on 1-2 base like thor rush, mass thor/banshee 1 base, et cetera. At best, Zerg has predictable baneling busts which are a coinflip against Terran, whom can easily hold it with maybe 30 seconds warning, doesn't work against Protoss, or burrow roaches... which is a joke and can't really be rushed.
I'm not saying OP or nothing like that. It's just that Zerg lacks any openings that would make the opponent rage. I'm sure all the Zerg know what I'm saying. At the very least, you can understand Zerg lacks anything like banshees or DTs.
Personally I would like to be able to cast feedback on buildings.... I'm so tired of being able to do nothing about the saved scans of terrans, there should be a way to punish it.
On July 06 2011 12:56 sluggaslamoo wrote: Increase mining time 75%, and 8 minerals returned per trip. Its the same mining rate but workers will glitch out after 1 worker per patch rather than patiently waiting for their turn thereby making it useful to have more than 3 expansions and early expansions will make a bigger difference.
1-2 base timings will be weaker. Having more than 3 bases will actually allow for more income. Early expansions will provide more income.
Oh and option for BW sounds.
I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about it, but some kind of "buff" to multi-base play, and a nerf to rush and all in's would be amazing.
Good suggestion
lol why? What's more popular at pro level sc2: all-ins or basically multi-base-play that usually are long or end to a timing attack etc.? Not the first one, I tell you. Why should something be nerfed when it isn't a problem at the first place?
On July 08 2011 21:59 awesomoecalypse wrote: I wish Guardian shield effected Colossus fire.
Yes, I know it seems really minor and trivial, but PvP Colossus Wars bug the shit out of me, and I can't for the life of me figure out why they made Colossi fire bypass Guardian shield completely. Changing this would only effect the mirror matchup, but I think it could still have a beneficial impact--a 4 Colossus ball firing into a guardian shield would be doing 8 damage less per shot to every single target, which would help tremendously with the "Colossus melt all gateway units once you hit critical mass thing." Everyone knows PvP is whack, and this change would only manifest in PvP.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This by far I think is a great idea.
I would also love to see my dear lurks back in HOTS, 150/150 research on the den, you can have the banelings, I'd rather have SOME kind of defensive unit that can help hold a line, other than the final units (which need guarding themselves.) I still feel that they purposely took lurkers out, just so they could put them in HOTS, so people will buy it.
Well it's fully textured, has a unique portrait and soundbytes, and the lurker den is in the game files as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're right. =/
I think what everyone is over looking is that SC2 is faster, much faster then BW. That is what a lot of people seem to not think about when they try to compare the two games, it is really like comparing golf to basketball, both take great skill, great strategy and great game sense, but one you get a lot more time to set up and the other you just have to do it. I really think that people should consider this more, the reason the game is already so volatile and unforgiving is because of how fast the pace is, when it takes 20 seconds for 3 medivacs full of units to stim snipe half of your production buildings (I realize 20 seconds isn't the right number just throwing it out there because it is quick) and you have 3 blue flame hellions role into your natural, think of how hard it is to react to that kind of well executed multi pronged harass.
Now would it really be fair to not give them a refund on the production buildings or research that is being taken out, because all of the sudden you are trying to save your probes (you either let them sit or try to split) save your production/tech, maintain your macro, either call back your units from the field or do harass/counter attack of your own and now you have to worry about running through all buildings that are building or research and canceling or all the sudden you are down 2 buildings lost 8 probes and you lost 600minerals 400gas because you couldn't cancel fast enough because? The game is just set at an extremely fast pace, which I think is also why the defenders advantage doesn't really exist. Just my 2 cents though
If the protoss buildings are unpowered i think it would be fair if toss couldnt warp in units that require the unpowered building. Example: DT shrine unpowered = no more DTs. I think the current way unpowering acts doesnt make anny sense. Any thoughts on this one?
EDIT: and also that buildings dont stop warping in when the pylon died that gave the power so it could be created. All these things just dont seem logical to me.
On July 09 2011 17:18 Belial88 wrote: I think Zerg lacks any "bullshit" builds like DTs or banshees, and if you go 'even deeper' things like 7 rax, double stargate, double factory reactor hellion, or massing t3 units on 1-2 base like thor rush, mass thor/banshee 1 base, et cetera. At best, Zerg has predictable baneling busts which are a coinflip against Terran, whom can easily hold it with maybe 30 seconds warning, doesn't work against Protoss, or burrow roaches... which is a joke and can't really be rushed.
I'm not saying OP or nothing like that. It's just that Zerg lacks any openings that would make the opponent rage. I'm sure all the Zerg know what I'm saying. At the very least, you can understand Zerg lacks anything like banshees or DTs.
I would like to see Blizz implement that.
Scouting Bling and/or Roach busts is kinda hard because Zerg takes the map control the moment speed finishes.