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On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player.
Queens even counter tier 3 air, and especially on maps where swarm hosts are already too strong. If countering swarm hosts were as easy as make things that fly, I'm 100% sure Stephano would feel they are too strong against Toss.... Obviously I don't want more map restrictions. I'd rather see the lurker. You know, a unit that is pretty much just as strong on any map.
If I have to devote most of my gas into colossi, then make vipers or corrupters and win. Hard counter units help you be more cost efficient and help you avoid playing in an exploitable way. When one unit doesn't have a hard counter, and, on top of that, keeps spawning free units, it only exacerbates the problem. If I can't trade cost efficiently and I'm having to over make a unit that has a hard counter, then I'm probably going to get exploited and not have the resources to counter the counter to colossi.
You need considerably more minerals and gas than the opponent to win on some maps. If that's not viable to pull off against evenly skilled opponents, then there's probably a problem that needs to be addressed.
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you know guys.... maybe adding even more hard counters isn't the way to go. there are already way too many in this game imo.
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On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player.
A hard counter is NOT a unit that beats the other unit in 1 on 1 scenarios. Colossus doesn't hard counter hydra because it can take it on in a vacuum. Colossus don't even beat hydra alone in equal resources invested.
A hard counter means that the unit is a choice to add to the existing composition in order to defeat the new composition with the added enemy unit. Colossus added to the stalker-sentry-zealot mix will defeat a roach-ling army that has just invested in hydras. Just the same way Immortals hard counter roaches only in the right unit composition. Roaches with lings can beat immortals without enough sentries or zealots. Phoenixes aren't even a hard counter for mutas, given the situation in which they are introduced. Mass muta, alone, is countered by phoenixes, but NOT hard countered. Hard counter means that given the current investment, there is nothing that can be added to the army fast enough to support the unit against the hard counter. When hydras pop out to defend against early air pressure, Colossus hard counters them, because there is no other unit that can be added with enough time to make the hydra investment worthwhile. The quickest unit to be added would be corruptors (unless some quick hive build can get vipers out soon enough), and both options leave a huge timing window if the protoss commits to a heavy push.
Mutas, on the other hand, are NOT hard countered by Phoenixes, because a proper mix of corruptors and mutas can be made at relatively the same timing, and actually trades pretty cost-efficiently with the phoenixes. I wouldn't even call tempests a hard counter for broodlords, because any situation where the protoss reacts to broods with tempests gives the zerg more than enough time to support the broodlords. That's a late game situation where the zerg has almost it's entire tech tree available. Hard counters are not as common as people think they are. We just enjoy being dramatic about it.
The only hard counters I can think of are Colossus immediately after early-game air pressure, Immortals after turtling with mass sentries, Mass Muta switch after heavy roach pressure, and vipers timed perfectly for the colossus switch. Everything else is complicated. That's why this game is good. =)
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On May 25 2013 12:53 Omniturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. I wouldn't even call tempests a hard counter for broodlords, because any situation where the protoss reacts to broods with tempests gives the zerg more than enough time to support the broodlords.
what. nope. tempest 3 shots a broodlord at a range of 2 and a half steppes of wars. it's probably the hardest counter in the whole game. the unit that once was the core of a zvp army now isn't even a viable unit choice in zvp. it's not even possible to trade broods - they will just die without doing anything at all.
i think blizzard really overdid it with the tempest against bl. in zvt however the broodlord is in a really good spot now. it's still a viable lategame unit to add into an army composition to make it stronger and force him out of overly defensive positions with the drawback of lost mobility and it can force out something other than pure marauder medivac. on the other hand terran has good answers to brood lords but it's still possible for the zerg to actually use broodlords in a sensible way.
in zvp the only reason to make broodlords is if you want to lose.
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On May 25 2013 12:53 Omniturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. A hard counter is NOT a unit that beats the other unit in 1 on 1 scenarios. Colossus doesn't hard counter hydra because it can take it on in a vacuum. Colossus don't even beat hydra alone in equal resources invested. A hard counter means that the unit is a choice to add to the existing composition in order to defeat the new composition with the added enemy unit. Colossus added to the stalker-sentry-zealot mix will defeat a roach-ling army that has just invested in hydras. Just the same way Immortals hard counter roaches only in the right unit composition. Roaches with lings can beat immortals without enough sentries or zealots. Phoenixes aren't even a hard counter for mutas, given the situation in which they are introduced. Mass muta, alone, is countered by phoenixes, but NOT hard countered. Hard counter means that given the current investment, there is nothing that can be added to the army fast enough to support the unit against the hard counter. When hydras pop out to defend against early air pressure, Colossus hard counters them, because there is no other unit that can be added with enough time to make the hydra investment worthwhile. The quickest unit to be added would be corruptors (unless some quick hive build can get vipers out soon enough), and both options leave a huge timing window if the protoss commits to a heavy push. Mutas, on the other hand, are NOT hard countered by Phoenixes, because a proper mix of corruptors and mutas can be made at relatively the same timing, and actually trades pretty cost-efficiently with the phoenixes. I wouldn't even call tempests a hard counter for broodlords, because any situation where the protoss reacts to broods with tempests gives the zerg more than enough time to support the broodlords. That's a late game situation where the zerg has almost it's entire tech tree available. Hard counters are not as common as people think they are. We just enjoy being dramatic about it. The only hard counters I can think of are Colossus immediately after early-game air pressure, Immortals after turtling with mass sentries, Mass Muta switch after heavy roach pressure, and vipers timed perfectly for the colossus switch. Everything else is complicated. That's why this game is good. =)
yes, a hardcounter to a unit is a unit that beats another one in a cost vs cost scenario. Of course roaches with lings in the right amounts can beat the immortal, as the immortal is a hardcounter to the roach, yet the zerling is a hardcounter to the immortal (unless we talk about mass immortal lategame scenarios). Of course there is a difference between hardcountering a unit and hardcountering a composition. That's the whole reason why we build compositions instead of singlespamming units, so that our opponents cannot hardcounter us with just "the right unit(s)".
Of course flying units are hardcounters to the swarm host. That hydras and queens and other stuff kill your flying units is a completely different thing. If you invest a ton into air and then get killed by hydras, you may need to think about which units your opponent actually invested most of his money into and, therefore, which units you should counter. And maybe try a counter that is good against one and at least not bad against the other (e.g. more Templar for swarm host/hydra/viper/Queen, instead of more Colossus/Void ray - "why doesn't this work when he can just pull my stuff all the time")
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If we want to do one unit vs one unit... "flying things" don't even counter swarm hosts, given you need an observer to kill anyone that uses burrow :p And if I'm allowed to have an observer, then you're probably allowed to have a unit that helps you deal with my flying things, and it's the same deal.
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On May 25 2013 12:53 Omniturtle wrote: A hard counter means that the unit is a choice to add to the existing composition in order to defeat the new composition with the added enemy unit.
I think you just described what most people would call a counter unit.
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On May 25 2013 17:30 playa wrote: If we want to do one unit vs one unit... "flying things" don't even counter swarm hosts, given you need an observer to kill anyone that uses burrow :p And if I'm allowed to have an observer, then you're probably allowed to have a unit that helps you deal with my flying things, and it's the same deal.
the oracle does; envision+pulsar beam
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On May 25 2013 17:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 17:30 playa wrote: If we want to do one unit vs one unit... "flying things" don't even counter swarm hosts, given you need an observer to kill anyone that uses burrow :p And if I'm allowed to have an observer, then you're probably allowed to have a unit that helps you deal with my flying things, and it's the same deal. the oracle does; envision+pulsar beam
I was wondering who was going to be the smart ass to have that comment But, even then, I dunno. I mean, you'd have to use 50 energy for revelation, and since the swarm host is armored, there's no bonus damage. I'm thinking you can't kill a swarm host with 1 oracle, full energy or not, given health regen of zerg units. At least not on the first go around.
Edit: nvm they kill swarm hosts a lot faster than I remember :o The oracle is clearly imbalanced. A full energy oracle can take down 4 ultras that are too lazy to run away.
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On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player.
NONONONONONO they are not countered by air. Common misconception. If you have air units the locusts will just walk past and kill your base. You can't kill locusts fast enough with air.
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On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I think that swarm hosts are too strong in ZvP, mainly because they force a huge investment into colossus, and since the the locusts are free, once a certain number of hosts is hit the zerg can switch easily into corruptors. I'm only diamond, so I might be missing a good solution, but I haven't seen pros come up with a good answer, I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey. My main issue is that that swarm hosts are HUGELY, in my opinion, favoured at a level where both players are decent at macro, but lack finesse, control etc, since swarm hosts require literally 0 micro for great effect.
Just my 2 cents, but if anyone has a good solution to swarmhosts in PvZ please tell me.
Swarm Host are puzzling for me, they are too strong on some maps and situation, and they suck so much in other situation... I don't know how to change this however.
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On May 25 2013 09:01 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. Queens even counter tier 3 air, and especially on maps where swarm hosts are already too strong. If countering swarm hosts were as easy as make things that fly, I'm 100% sure Stephano would feel they are too strong against Toss.... Obviously I don't want more map restrictions. I'd rather see the lurker. You know, a unit that is pretty much just as strong on any map. If I have to devote most of my gas into colossi, then make vipers or corrupters and win. Hard counter units help you be more cost efficient and help you avoid playing in an exploitable way. When one unit doesn't have a hard counter, and, on top of that, keeps spawning free units, it only exacerbates the problem. If I can't trade cost efficiently and I'm having to over make a unit that has a hard counter, then I'm probably going to get exploited and not have the resources to counter the counter to colossi. You need considerably more minerals and gas than the opponent to win on some maps. If that's not viable to pull off against evenly skilled opponents, then there's probably a problem that needs to be addressed. which tier 3 air does the queen counter? Carrier and tempest owns queens hardcore. talking about counter, queen counters void ray better than corruptor does, kinda weird don't you think? lol
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Hellbat drops for Terrans. With splash, should kill/damage a lot of swarm hosts. Use scan to clean up.
Protoss can do Archon drops, supplemented with zealot warp-in. Use 2 - 3 drop ships, might need more archons depending on the number of swarm-host. Set up retreat flank to clean up. Send observer with clean-up squad. Preferably blink stalkers and observer with speed upgraded.
If enemy has air to air units, send in your own air to air units. Vikings and Phoenix to either a) kill off enemy air b) tank enough damage until drop is made.
If enemy has ground to air units, then do a flank. Divide up the army into 1/3 and 2/3 portions with equal balance of unit composition. Use the smaller force to engage/kite the Locusts produced by the Swarm hosts. The other 2/3 of the army will approximate the location of the Swarm hosts, bring/enable detection and wipe out.
PS. Terrans and Protoss brothers and sisters, please don't cry out OP too soon! While it is tempting and the easy way out, acknowledge that argument we often employ. That must give time for adjustments in the meta. Zergs slowly configured Swarm Hosts into their play; and now it's our turn to slowly adapt and come up with a response.
And then we will have add another strategy, to which the other races will have to adapt.
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On May 25 2013 18:37 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 09:01 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. Queens even counter tier 3 air, and especially on maps where swarm hosts are already too strong. If countering swarm hosts were as easy as make things that fly, I'm 100% sure Stephano would feel they are too strong against Toss.... Obviously I don't want more map restrictions. I'd rather see the lurker. You know, a unit that is pretty much just as strong on any map. If I have to devote most of my gas into colossi, then make vipers or corrupters and win. Hard counter units help you be more cost efficient and help you avoid playing in an exploitable way. When one unit doesn't have a hard counter, and, on top of that, keeps spawning free units, it only exacerbates the problem. If I can't trade cost efficiently and I'm having to over make a unit that has a hard counter, then I'm probably going to get exploited and not have the resources to counter the counter to colossi. You need considerably more minerals and gas than the opponent to win on some maps. If that's not viable to pull off against evenly skilled opponents, then there's probably a problem that needs to be addressed. which tier 3 air does the queen counter? Carrier and tempest owns queens hardcore. talking about counter, queen counters void ray better than corruptor does, kinda weird don't you think? lol
Yeah, I've thought about it in the past and it is still weird to me that queens are better than corrupters against void rays. I don't really make carriers, so I dunno. Perhaps I should, though, because being the only unit that you have to essentially pay for ammo, it has to be pretty amazing. I don't know if I could handle paying for ammo against a unit that keeps spawning "free units." Would just make losing even more tilting.
As for tempest... I don't think they counter queens. Supposedly, you need 6 tempests to 1 shot a queen. In my games, it seems more like 20 tempests are needed to one shot a queen. If you can't 1 shot a queen, then you can't kill any queens due to transfuse. If they have decent creep spread... you really can't even go onto creep or the queens will own you so fast. It's a lot easier to mass queens than tempests. I've been maxed on pure tempests and still get beat by that composition as if I was attacking with probes.
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On May 25 2013 09:36 willstertben wrote: you know guys.... maybe adding even more hard counters isn't the way to go. there are already way too many in this game imo. The problem isnt only "hard counters" but rather the bonus damage system which makes some units basically useless against some other units. Examples are the Immortal, which has a basic attack of 20 but gains bonus damage of 30 against armored ... so it is more or less "vulnerable" to small and light units like Zerglings or Marines. Redesigning the shield might help, but having the damage dealt reduced by 60% against everything that isnt armored is just too much.
Other units which suffer from this problem are the Siege Tank (because it also has the damage reduced for dealing splash damage) and the Thor for his AA attack (reduction of 50% against non-light). Even the new High Impact air mode doesnt really change that, because it deals LESS DPS compared to a Goliath - 12 dps for the Thor in High Impact mode and 14 dps for the Goliath - (BW dps numbers) for more than three times the cost in a game where you are going to face a lot more opponents at the same time.
I dont really consider Banelings and Hellions to be of this "weak sauce because of bous damage" category due to their cheap nature, their AoE attacks (which are easily stacked) and the ability to easily mass-produce and mass-use them.
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On May 25 2013 18:02 Megapenthes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. NONONONONONO they are not countered by air. Common misconception. If you have air units the locusts will just walk past and kill your base. You can't kill locusts fast enough with air.
so, this is what I did while having lunch. 10 swarm hosts vs 5carriers, 2hours of nexus sieging (10VRs are similarily strong)
so yeah, the right air units easily have the dps to neutralize the locusts in a cost for cost, supply for supply scenario
On May 25 2013 18:55 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 18:37 ETisME wrote:On May 25 2013 09:01 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. Queens even counter tier 3 air, and especially on maps where swarm hosts are already too strong. If countering swarm hosts were as easy as make things that fly, I'm 100% sure Stephano would feel they are too strong against Toss.... Obviously I don't want more map restrictions. I'd rather see the lurker. You know, a unit that is pretty much just as strong on any map. If I have to devote most of my gas into colossi, then make vipers or corrupters and win. Hard counter units help you be more cost efficient and help you avoid playing in an exploitable way. When one unit doesn't have a hard counter, and, on top of that, keeps spawning free units, it only exacerbates the problem. If I can't trade cost efficiently and I'm having to over make a unit that has a hard counter, then I'm probably going to get exploited and not have the resources to counter the counter to colossi. You need considerably more minerals and gas than the opponent to win on some maps. If that's not viable to pull off against evenly skilled opponents, then there's probably a problem that needs to be addressed. which tier 3 air does the queen counter? Carrier and tempest owns queens hardcore. talking about counter, queen counters void ray better than corruptor does, kinda weird don't you think? lol Yeah, I've thought about it in the past and it is still weird to me that queens are better than corrupters against void rays. I don't really make carriers, so I dunno. Perhaps I should, though, because being the only unit that you have to essentially pay for ammo, it has to be pretty amazing. I don't know if I could handle paying for ammo against a unit that keeps spawning "free units." Would just make losing even more tilting. As for tempest... I don't think they counter queens. Supposedly, you need 6 tempests to 1 shot a queen. In my games, it seems more like 20 tempests are needed to one shot a queen. If you can't 1 shot a queen, then you can't kill any queens due to transfuse. If they have decent creep spread... you really can't even go onto creep or the queens will own you so fast. It's a lot easier to mass queens than tempests. I've been maxed on pure tempests and still get beat by that composition as if I was attacking with probes.
yeah, massing Tempests is absolutly not the way to go, in basically no scenario ever. Like, even blizzard said that they intended the Tempest to be a situational unit while the goto combat air units should be the carrier and the VR.
I think a perfect Protoss air (only) army looks something like ~5Tempests (just enough to siege anything in ways that the opponent can't just sit them out), a backbone of ~5-10Carriers (they are supplyefficient against nearly every unit in the game) and the rest VRs and phoenixes in a mix as needed (though VR is the much more solid option). Of course HT and a mothership would make a great topping as well. (not saying a Protoss should aim to get there. Just putting it out there, as many people seem to think that massing VRs and Tempests is already the best they can do)
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On May 25 2013 19:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 18:02 Megapenthes wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. NONONONONONO they are not countered by air. Common misconception. If you have air units the locusts will just walk past and kill your base. You can't kill locusts fast enough with air. so, this is what I did while having lunch. 10 swarm hosts vs 5carriers, 2hours of nexus sieging (10VRs are similarily strong) so yeah, the right air units easily have the dps to neutralize the locusts in a cost for cost, supply for supply scenario Is it realistic to get out an equal supply of carriers in response to swarm hosts in time? Even if I open stargate, which is what I do if I try to play macro against Zerg, I would say that's pretty unrealistic. You might notice how we haven't seen carriers in pro games for how long?
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On May 25 2013 19:56 Megapenthes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 19:49 Big J wrote:On May 25 2013 18:02 Megapenthes wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. NONONONONONO they are not countered by air. Common misconception. If you have air units the locusts will just walk past and kill your base. You can't kill locusts fast enough with air. so, this is what I did while having lunch. 10 swarm hosts vs 5carriers, 2hours of nexus sieging (10VRs are similarily strong) so yeah, the right air units easily have the dps to neutralize the locusts in a cost for cost, supply for supply scenario Is it realistic to get out an equal supply of carriers in response to swarm hosts in time? Even if I open stargate, which is what I do if I try to play macro against Zerg, I would say that's pretty unrealistic. You might notice how we haven't seen carriers in pro games for how long?
Well, I don't think it's very realistic, but note that I said 10VRs are basically as good as those 5Carriers in killing locusts, which is actually a quite realistic composition, given what we have seen in HotS so far. I guess my point is more along the lines of: If you have anything that is really solid against swarm hosts (like 3Colossi - which you often have before the Zerg even starts switching into swarm hosts) adding air units as reaction to swarm hosts is a really good idea, as the locusts won't even touch you.
And then you are already countering the swarm hosts damn well, so you should start focusing on countering what the zerg is building with his swarm hosts (which is usually along the lines of Vipers, hydralisks, corruptors, broodlords).
Just from my personal experience: I've had a few games where I did those mass swarm hosts on the ladder (EU master) and all my Protoss opponents basically went mass Colossus+VRs against it. So I don't think this is generally bad against swarm hosts. Thing is, I "only" built 10-15swarm hosts and my opponents usually keep on building double VR/double Colossi, long after they aren't getting touched by regular locusts waves at all, while I keep on getting kills with abducts. I believe that you guys focus too much on discussing/countering the swarm host, while your problem is the Viper, which is the unit that actually kills your stuff the "for free" at this point.
Edit: I've lost some games to that as well, as at some point the Protoss can just amove my siege position if I build too many hydras. But I believe that the mass Colossus/VR is an unsolid reaction to swarmhost play, as it is very vulnerable to vipers and air(muta)switches in the long run, while being kind of "do or die" in the one engagement you may get to kill all the hosts and the statics and the army and kind of relies on the zerg supporting his composition with only hydras. It overcounters swarm hosts in direct combat, yet leaves you vulnerable to many other things.
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On May 25 2013 19:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 18:02 Megapenthes wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. NONONONONONO they are not countered by air. Common misconception. If you have air units the locusts will just walk past and kill your base. You can't kill locusts fast enough with air. so, this is what I did while having lunch. 10 swarm hosts vs 5carriers, 2hours of nexus sieging (10VRs are similarily strong) so yeah, the right air units easily have the dps to neutralize the locusts in a cost for cost, supply for supply scenario Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 18:55 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 18:37 ETisME wrote:On May 25 2013 09:01 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. Queens even counter tier 3 air, and especially on maps where swarm hosts are already too strong. If countering swarm hosts were as easy as make things that fly, I'm 100% sure Stephano would feel they are too strong against Toss.... Obviously I don't want more map restrictions. I'd rather see the lurker. You know, a unit that is pretty much just as strong on any map. If I have to devote most of my gas into colossi, then make vipers or corrupters and win. Hard counter units help you be more cost efficient and help you avoid playing in an exploitable way. When one unit doesn't have a hard counter, and, on top of that, keeps spawning free units, it only exacerbates the problem. If I can't trade cost efficiently and I'm having to over make a unit that has a hard counter, then I'm probably going to get exploited and not have the resources to counter the counter to colossi. You need considerably more minerals and gas than the opponent to win on some maps. If that's not viable to pull off against evenly skilled opponents, then there's probably a problem that needs to be addressed. which tier 3 air does the queen counter? Carrier and tempest owns queens hardcore. talking about counter, queen counters void ray better than corruptor does, kinda weird don't you think? lol Yeah, I've thought about it in the past and it is still weird to me that queens are better than corrupters against void rays. I don't really make carriers, so I dunno. Perhaps I should, though, because being the only unit that you have to essentially pay for ammo, it has to be pretty amazing. I don't know if I could handle paying for ammo against a unit that keeps spawning "free units." Would just make losing even more tilting. As for tempest... I don't think they counter queens. Supposedly, you need 6 tempests to 1 shot a queen. In my games, it seems more like 20 tempests are needed to one shot a queen. If you can't 1 shot a queen, then you can't kill any queens due to transfuse. If they have decent creep spread... you really can't even go onto creep or the queens will own you so fast. It's a lot easier to mass queens than tempests. I've been maxed on pure tempests and still get beat by that composition as if I was attacking with probes. yeah, massing Tempests is absolutly not the way to go, in basically no scenario ever. Like, even blizzard said that they intended the Tempest to be a situational unit while the goto combat air units should be the carrier and the VR. I think a perfect Protoss air (only) army looks something like ~5Tempests (just enough to siege anything in ways that the opponent can't just sit them out), a backbone of ~5-10Carriers (they are supplyefficient against nearly every unit in the game) and the rest VRs and phoenixes in a mix as needed (though VR is the much more solid option). Of course HT and a mothership would make a great topping as well. (not saying a Protoss should aim to get there. Just putting it out there, as many people seem to think that massing VRs and Tempests is already the best they can do)
So, there's a few things wrong with this: 1) 5 carriers are pretty tough to get in time, not to mention the amount of supply it detracts from your main army. However, I think the current response (colossus) takes almost as long and is not as effective, as a colossus-supported army does take damage every time it engages the locusts.
2) Carriers are EASY targets for abducts, and given an opening, corruptors make quick work of a VERY expensive unit. Carriers do not represent a proper swarmhost defense, because the amount of time it takes for the carriers to wipe out the locusts means that templar can NEVER be in position to prevent abducts.
3) Even in the void ray situation, a clump of corruptors with a viper or two can dart in every wave of locusts and pick off a free void ray or two. If air units are the defense of choice, templars can not prevent this, and it continues to be a game of zerg losing nothing to deal constant damage to the protoss.
4) The swarm hosts can, at any moment, uproot immediately after a wave of locusts pops, and replant towards another protoss base, and there is NOTHING a slow air army can do to get to the other base in time, except recall, in which case, the zerg only needs to do this twice to put the protoss in an optionless situation. The more protoss invests into slower units, the less effective the composition is against swarmhost play. Defeating swarmhosts play means more than just killing the swarmhosts themselves. It means somehow dealing damage to the untouchable economy and teching that's going on behind the non-stop locust pushes.
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On May 25 2013 23:24 Omniturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 19:49 Big J wrote:On May 25 2013 18:02 Megapenthes wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. NONONONONONO they are not countered by air. Common misconception. If you have air units the locusts will just walk past and kill your base. You can't kill locusts fast enough with air. so, this is what I did while having lunch. 10 swarm hosts vs 5carriers, 2hours of nexus sieging (10VRs are similarily strong) so yeah, the right air units easily have the dps to neutralize the locusts in a cost for cost, supply for supply scenario On May 25 2013 18:55 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 18:37 ETisME wrote:On May 25 2013 09:01 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 08:35 FCReverie wrote:On May 25 2013 08:23 playa wrote:On May 25 2013 07:54 willstertben wrote:On May 24 2013 23:44 Megapenthes wrote: I've even seen Parting fall to it against Soulkey.
what's that supposed to mean? soulkey is much better than parting. How about the recent interview with Stephano where he says swarm hosts are too strong against Toss. Even mutas are incredibly strong in P vs Z, and they actually have a unit that hard counters them in theory -- the phoenix. In fact, every unit but the swarm host has a hard counter to it. Hydras = colossi. Roach = immortal. Broodlord = tempest, etc, etc. So not only does the swarm host not really have a counter, but you're forced to make a ton of colossi if you want a shot to actually engage the swarm host. But, in a game with so many hard counters, you can't afford to make too many of any 1 unit (unless it's the unit without a hard counter) or they will switch to units that hard counter you, and then you're left with no shot of dealing with swarm hosts. The strength of swarm hosts does change with maps, but on some maps they're completely broken. They can either alter the swarm host in a way that gives them a fair amount of strength, across the gamut of maps, or map makers have to have more restrictions on the kinda maps they make. Personally, I'd just alter the unit or add a hard counter type of unit. But, since I'd rather not wait for the next expansion... I guess the most realistic thing is altering the unit. Technically you are completely wrong. You know that the things can't shoot up and barely move so they are hard countered by air, expecially void rays. You cannot talk about units in a vacuum(void) like you do. It just does not make sense within the context of a game. You never ever have to hardcounter a unit and you never should have to. This is a strategy game and you should be countering a strategy. It isn't rock paper scissors. If you want something like that you should join a rock paper scissors league, or play pokemon or something. EDIT: And you really want to go back to heavy map restrictions so that Z has only 1 viable choice in ZvT and ZvP like it was in WoL? You know how that ended right? Much better to have slight imbalances in winrates on some maps and see different games than see the same game played out every time there is a Zerg player. Queens even counter tier 3 air, and especially on maps where swarm hosts are already too strong. If countering swarm hosts were as easy as make things that fly, I'm 100% sure Stephano would feel they are too strong against Toss.... Obviously I don't want more map restrictions. I'd rather see the lurker. You know, a unit that is pretty much just as strong on any map. If I have to devote most of my gas into colossi, then make vipers or corrupters and win. Hard counter units help you be more cost efficient and help you avoid playing in an exploitable way. When one unit doesn't have a hard counter, and, on top of that, keeps spawning free units, it only exacerbates the problem. If I can't trade cost efficiently and I'm having to over make a unit that has a hard counter, then I'm probably going to get exploited and not have the resources to counter the counter to colossi. You need considerably more minerals and gas than the opponent to win on some maps. If that's not viable to pull off against evenly skilled opponents, then there's probably a problem that needs to be addressed. which tier 3 air does the queen counter? Carrier and tempest owns queens hardcore. talking about counter, queen counters void ray better than corruptor does, kinda weird don't you think? lol Yeah, I've thought about it in the past and it is still weird to me that queens are better than corrupters against void rays. I don't really make carriers, so I dunno. Perhaps I should, though, because being the only unit that you have to essentially pay for ammo, it has to be pretty amazing. I don't know if I could handle paying for ammo against a unit that keeps spawning "free units." Would just make losing even more tilting. As for tempest... I don't think they counter queens. Supposedly, you need 6 tempests to 1 shot a queen. In my games, it seems more like 20 tempests are needed to one shot a queen. If you can't 1 shot a queen, then you can't kill any queens due to transfuse. If they have decent creep spread... you really can't even go onto creep or the queens will own you so fast. It's a lot easier to mass queens than tempests. I've been maxed on pure tempests and still get beat by that composition as if I was attacking with probes. yeah, massing Tempests is absolutly not the way to go, in basically no scenario ever. Like, even blizzard said that they intended the Tempest to be a situational unit while the goto combat air units should be the carrier and the VR. I think a perfect Protoss air (only) army looks something like ~5Tempests (just enough to siege anything in ways that the opponent can't just sit them out), a backbone of ~5-10Carriers (they are supplyefficient against nearly every unit in the game) and the rest VRs and phoenixes in a mix as needed (though VR is the much more solid option). Of course HT and a mothership would make a great topping as well. (not saying a Protoss should aim to get there. Just putting it out there, as many people seem to think that massing VRs and Tempests is already the best they can do) So, there's a few things wrong with this: 1) 5 carriers are pretty tough to get in time, not to mention the amount of supply it detracts from your main army. However, I think the current response (colossus) takes almost as long and is not as effective, as a colossus-supported army does take damage every time it engages the locusts. 2) Carriers are EASY targets for abducts, and given an opening, corruptors make quick work of a VERY expensive unit. Carriers do not represent a proper swarmhost defense, because the amount of time it takes for the carriers to wipe out the locusts means that templar can NEVER be in position to prevent abducts. 3) Even in the void ray situation, a clump of corruptors with a viper or two can dart in every wave of locusts and pick off a free void ray or two. If air units are the defense of choice, templars can not prevent this, and it continues to be a game of zerg losing nothing to deal constant damage to the protoss. 4) The swarm hosts can, at any moment, uproot immediately after a wave of locusts pops, and replant towards another protoss base, and there is NOTHING a slow air army can do to get to the other base in time, except recall, in which case, the zerg only needs to do this twice to put the protoss in an optionless situation. The more protoss invests into slower units, the less effective the composition is against swarmhost play. Defeating swarmhosts play means more than just killing the swarmhosts themselves. It means somehow dealing damage to the untouchable economy and teching that's going on behind the non-stop locust pushes.
1) see my previous post
2) then your problem is not that you lose to swarm hosts, but to Vipers and Corruptors;
3) see 2)
4) swarm hosts are just as slow as the Protoss army and need to unburrow/burrow which slows them down further. And the map layout of any map since Blistering Sands has been in a way that the defender always has a shorter way than the attacker.
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