I know that I will surely be experimenting with this, maybe some other map makers will to
Would island maps really be that imbalanced? - Page 4
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
I know that I will surely be experimenting with this, maybe some other map makers will to | ||
benjammin
United States2728 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Falling
Canada10904 Posts
One way to offset the Terran's early flying CC's is to copy Python's island expansion method. 8 mineral crystal blocking the natural building spot for a CC. So then they'd have to develop drop technology to get the worker over to mine it, and then land the CC. Now there is the problem of whether the rest of the island is unbuildable which would be unfortunate for static defence. But you could experiment with buildable spaces for static defences, but not big enough for a command centre. | ||
phiinix
United States1169 Posts
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mauvebutterfly
Canada15 Posts
On August 28 2011 15:28 ArvickHero wrote: for all those who are talking about Terran being able to FE to other expoes by lifting off CCs, map makers can simply implement a BW map-making trick where they placed 8min patches (5 for SC2) around the island to eliminate Terran liftoff advantage. The mineral block was a good trick in BW, but I honestly feel that destructible rocks would be better, simply because a command centre (not orbital command) can load up 5 SCV's and unload them before landing. Therefore, a Terran could mine 25 minerals before landing the CC. Is 30 minerals enough to block it? Terran can fly back to base, especially if there isn't a large distance between the islands. How high would the minerals need to go to prevent Terran players from mining it out before landing the CC? I'm also not sure what happens when you load SCV's that are carrying minerals. Do they take the minerals in and out of the CC without depositing them? That would be kind of funny. Destructible rocks are a bit better, although I guess Terran could still drop SCV's and attack them that way. It seems a bit more even though, given how long it will take 5 SCV's to kill some destructible rocks. | ||
Horse...falcon
United States1851 Posts
On August 28 2011 14:12 Sm3agol wrote: Carriers. Broodlords. Sure, you could hold both off for a while, but you can only turtle that hard for so long. Terran would be ridiculously op though. Triple CC first, loading up 5 scvs per trip. They'd have three bases up by the time zerg or toss would even be able to expand. Add in the fact that turrets are dirt cheap for early defense and marines are the best anti-air in the game and T would would easily dominate. Toss and zerg just aren't as flexible as T. I agree. There was a game on a Day9 daily where a guy took the island on Scrap and immediately ringed in 3-4 layers of turrets. The Protoss took the map, built up a bunch of carriers, and tried to attack the island only to have all his intercepters shot down again and again. He eventually left out of frustration. He turtled forever on 1/5th the economy of the protoss. Protoss could've won if he kept forcing the terran to remake turrets and mine out but that would've taken forever. That's not something I would want to watch in a tournament. | ||
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On August 28 2011 15:28 ArvickHero wrote: for all those who are talking about Terran being able to FE to other expoes by lifting off CCs, map makers can simply implement a BW map-making trick where they placed 8min patches (5 for SC2) around the island to eliminate Terran liftoff advantage. Nope. Mules + load workers means not viable. | ||
Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
And on islands...if the game gets extended, Zerg air has zero chance to compete against protoss air/terran air in late game. It basically goes like this in terms of air Zerg<Protoss<Terran. That is assuming that Terran is able to make it to that late game scenario. Otherwise, protoss does have warp-in...and warp prisms+recall, and even tho in extended late game scenarios mass mutas would not be able to handle mass ravens/bcs or carriers/phoenixs/voids...there would be a lot of potential for Zerg to play momentum based with mass muta play and nydusing expos...the only problem would be breaking expansions... They would be interesting I would think though ! It would be interesting to see a well designed island map, but i doubt it will happen. | ||
cLutZ
United States19551 Posts
Also the Terran advantage seems too strong. Reactor Vikings = Instant Air Superiority, floating Commands = macro advantage, Medivacs are ridiculously good as it is... | ||
Lamphead
Canada241 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
ZvT will pretty have to go 1 base mutas to be able to apply pressure/scout enemy base and control the air so he doesnt die to anything stupid like that. Terran could also 15 CC and turret up and would be vastly fair ahead and nothing zerg can really do about it. Unless you wana do a nydus opening and expand somewhere but then you might die to 2 port banshee or some drop or something along that line....basically it come to coin flip. PvT will probably open robo as well so they dont die to any silly banshee or stargate play. Stargate can look scary but I think threat of banshee will usually make this a phoenix opener instead but void ray will pretty much neutralize 15 CC or any fast FE without starport. So I think protoss will have advantage some wat considering if they make phoenix they can dominate air. Phoenix > everything in starport except BC. From there, I think terran has to play defensive and slowly take island by island. I think this might be an interesting match up. This is from terran perspective so I think this probably be how the meta game would be if their air. TvZ would be to much of coinflip to ever work imo. | ||
AugustDreams
Australia127 Posts
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
It's already been 'experimented'....scrap station, islands on lost temple....etc....it didn't work it made for turtles that took forever to break and boring games...there is 100% absolutely no need for any true island maps to ever enter sc2 ever again. | ||
rickybobby
United States405 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On August 28 2011 16:07 Lamphead wrote: Island maps are like the chess equivalent of the variation of chess where you randomize the starting location of your back 8 pieces, it means for better or worse you rely more on game sense and creativity than a practiced well worn repetition. Bobby Fischer was the greatest chess player of all time and heavily endorsed this kind of game, and I think it would be good for SC2 as well, but I am not sure it has a place in high level tournaments without an established meta game for people to enjoy when watching. I don't understand your comparison. How do Island maps make it random? If it's played there will be eventually established strategies and 1 or more likely 2 races excluded as inferior, but it won't end up random. If 2 people play right now with no idea of the strategies it still won't be 'random' although yes it might favour the person who thinks better. But it soon gets figured out.. The Island map tournament for BW not so long ago was very fun. All races involved and some crazy crazy games. You can theory-craft imbalances all you like and we all know Island maps are not balanced but clearly it was still fun. If what people say about defenders advantage on Islands is true though then it's not going to work, although i can't help thinking it's still totally theoretical.. if people turtle too hard then design maps that force otherwise with low eco bases. | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 28 2011 16:13 infinity2k9 wrote: I don't understand your comparison. How do Island maps make it random? If it's played there will be eventually established strategies and 1 or more likely 2 races excluded as inferior, but it won't end up random. If 2 people play right now with no idea of the strategies it still won't be 'random' although yes it might favour the person who thinks better. But it soon gets figured out.. The Island map tournament for BW not so long ago was very fun. All races involved and some crazy crazy games. You can theory-craft imbalances all you like and we all know Island maps are not balanced but clearly it was still fun. If what people say about defenders advantage on Islands is true though then it's not going to work, although i can't help thinking it's still totally theoretical.. It's more that it's so mixed up that everything becomes completely non-standard and you have to throw much of what you know out the window. I think that as long as there's a natural on your starting island, terran won't be impossibly favored. Zerg nydus and drop play would be really viable, and I actually think a ground-based zerg army on an island map could be VERY difficult to deal with. Secure 2 islands for 4 bases, using nydus to connect yourself as well as for some aggression, and I think you could tech to broodlord infestor like that relatively unimpeded. Yes, marine drops are scary, but the scariest part about marine drops is the tank push coming for your front door 2 minutes later... which just doesn't work the same way. You can focus all your attention on denying drops and using fungal to prevent any form of escape. I definitely think watching some ZVT on a decently made island map could be neat. | ||
Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Falling
Canada10904 Posts
On August 28 2011 15:57 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Nope. Mules + load workers means not viable. Oh yeah. I forgot about the load workers for regular CC's. Hm, that's rather annoying. Does anyone actually use that ability except for islands? Seems a rather odd ability thrown in by Blizzard. | ||
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