Please don't post crap about Terrans lifting to expansions easily while the other races flounder around like headless chickens, "island map" != "only one base on your starting island". YOU CAN HAVE MORE THAN ONE BASE PER ISLAND! Seriously there are like 20 people posting the same bullcrap on every page...
I feel as if island maps haven't been given a fair chance by mapmakers/players, perhaps largely due to the legacy of island maps in Brood War. Island maps would make for some very different gameplay, but I'm not convinced they would necessarily be imbalanced, as each race as certain advantages it can bring to the table.
Protoss: -Warp-ins and Warp Prisms are very strong on islands, allowing reinforcements where your ground forces can't reach and harassment where the enemy army can't reach -If the islands are close enough, blink Stalkers would be very effective and mobile -Protoss air could be pretty viable in all matchups if you don't have to worry about dying to early rushes -Mass Recall would be very good on island maps
Terran: -Drop play would obviously be very powerful -Terrans have very powerful air superiority units like the Viking and the Raven, and very powerful Air to Ground units like the Banshee and Battlecruiser -Terrans can float their buildings to other islands (you could design the map so that you can't take expansions too easily though) -Turrets are ridiculously powerful
Zerg: -Has the easiest time doing massive drop play -Queens are pretty much the best early game anti-air, and Spores are always quite powerful and very mobile -Nydus worms allows transporting entire armies between islands -Can build a godlike economy if they don't have to worry about early rushes
Obviously this isn't a complete list, but with all these different advantages I have a hard time telling which race would be strongest on an island map.
Of course, "island map" is just a catch-all term that could refer to all kinds of different things. You could have a map that starts of with players isolated from each other but with rocks that can be killed (I guess sort of like the Novice maps), or have straight up island maps with only main + natural on your starting island and then a main "continent" in the middle, or even have a map that starts off pretty regular but with bridges that can be destroyed to turn it into an island map (Battle Royale style, not sure if possible on a Melee map in SC2).
So, what do you guys think? What is the reason that island maps haven't been explored much? Would they be too imbalanced, and if so in who's favor? What are some things that could be done to mitigate that imbalance, or is it even worth exploring at all?
Poll: What race would be favored on an island map?
Terran (776)
76%
Zerg (93)
9%
None (it would be balanced) (80)
8%
Protoss (66)
7%
1015 total votes
Your vote: What race would be favored on an island map?
(Vote): Protoss (Vote): Terran (Vote): Zerg (Vote): None (it would be balanced)
Poll: Are island maps worth experimenting with?
Yes (627)
52%
No, because they would be imbalanced (374)
31%
No, because they would be boring to watch/play on (141)
12%
No, because they would be too different from regular gameplay (62)
5%
1204 total votes
Your vote: Are island maps worth experimenting with?
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No, because they would be imbalanced (Vote): No, because they would be boring to watch/play on (Vote): No, because they would be too different from regular gameplay
I have always kind of wondered if Island maps would be viable in SC2. They create really fun and interesting games, and are just so different that I think it would be awesome to see such a alternative to regular maps. Cool topic, want to see what people think.
Imo terran would be super imba 1. OC lets you get more income than usual on one base, bigger deal when it is harder to expo. 2. Medivacs are insanely good. 3. Vikings are insanely good against the other races' drop ships 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
Be honest now, how many games have you played or watched on an island map?
If more than zero, was it an island map designed by Blizzard, or by professional map makers?
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
Be honest now, how many games have you played or watched on an island map?
If more than zero, was it an island map designed by Blizzard, or by professional map makers?
On August 28 2011 13:59 Chocolate wrote: Imo terran would be super imba 1. OC lets you get more income than usual on one base, bigger deal when it is harder to expo. 2. Medivacs are insanely good. 3. Vikings are insanely good against the other races' drop ships 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
1. Islands doesn't necessarily mean there's no natural on your starting island. 2. Can't argue with that, but given that it's an island, shouldn't the other player be more prepared for drop play? 3. True enough, although it's not like Phoenix and Mutalisks can't shut down enemy drops just as well (perhaps better due to their far superior mobility). 4. There are ways you could design the map to prevent abuse. For example, large areas on islands where you can't build anything, meaning it would take actual units to prevent drops there. You could also have islands be close enough that turrets could be killed with Colosuss or blink.
Terran would be retardedly OP with command center first every game. Zerg would be screwed going lair tech to be able to nydus, or OL drop to another island. Protoss same boat going robo. Terran skipping gas and taking 3 bases and lolling.
On August 28 2011 14:04 Frozne wrote: Terran would be retardedly OP with command center first every game. Zerg would be screwed going lair tech to be able to nydus, or OL drop to another island. Protoss same boat going robo. Terran skipping gas and taking 3 bases and lolling.
Would never work.
Did you read my OP or any of my responses? An island map doesn't HAVE to be just one base on your starting island, that would obviously be terrible for Zerg. I'm not sure you could hold 2 seperate islands (and certainly not 3!) against Void Ray aggression either, since you'd have to divide your defenses between them. Warp Prism 4-Gate would also be powerful.
The thing is that theorycrafting like this will never work. Until you see how things work out in game, nothing is certain. But because there will almost certainly be some sort of imbalance, no tournament would be willing to try it since the players would be against it, and because no top players are interested, no high level testing will occur.
One thing, Terran lifting to gold to start the game is a viable option. So you'd need destructibles on golds if you have any.
I've tried playing on Island maps, never quite competitively though, and it was insanely boring. Hopefully Island maps will never be implented in any form of competitive play, if it would be balanced or not, I don't know and I don't really care either :p.
On August 28 2011 13:59 Chocolate wrote: 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
On August 28 2011 14:12 sekritzzz wrote: There simply is no way to penetrate a terrans base with turrets lol. I have experimented in bronze league a year ago. Trust me it does not work.
Carriers. Broodlords. Sure, you could hold both off for a while, but you can only turtle that hard for so long.
Terran would be ridiculously op though. Triple CC first, loading up 5 scvs per trip. They'd have three bases up by the time zerg or toss would even be able to expand. Add in the fact that turrets are dirt cheap for early defense and marines are the best anti-air in the game and T would would easily dominate. Toss and zerg just aren't as flexible as T.
On August 28 2011 13:59 Chocolate wrote: 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
Carriers. Broodlords.
Terran would be ridiculously op though. Triple CC first, loading up 5 scvs per trip. They'd have three bases up by the time zerg or toss would even be able to expand. Add in the fact that turrets are dirt cheap for early defense and marines are the best anti-air in the game and T would would easily dominate. Toss and zerg just aren't as flexible as T.
Both of which are decimated by vikings. (carriers can theoretically kite but I've never seen it)
have to be tested ... since there are variations of island maps as well. Anyway if the cc first isn't imbalanced its probably the nydus/mutas, vs terran and the phoenix voids vs zerg, and the vikings raven/banshee vs toss heh.
scrap station was an island map. i dont think it was that imbalanced for t, but generally i think they would be.
edit: i was thinking maps with islands. ignore my first comment. with pf and turrets being so strong (and upgradeable), i think there would be a huge advantage to t bc their island defenses would be extremely strong.
I think certain styles of Island map would work. I think they should have an in base natural with maybe less minerals. And the map shouldn't consist of many islands, it should consist of 3-4 Islands, while the rest of the map can be played normally. It creates more of an island themed start (Fairly safe, but you have to tech to Air pretty fast or have amazing AA) but allows for normal game play everywhere else. Obviously its more complicated than that, but I think its possible to have a balanced and entertaining Island map, if a good map maker puts enough time into it.
On August 28 2011 13:59 Chocolate wrote: Imo terran would be super imba 1. OC lets you get more income than usual on one base, bigger deal when it is harder to expo. 2. Medivacs are insanely good. 3. Vikings are insanely good against the other races' drop ships 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
1. Islands doesn't necessarily mean there's no natural on your starting island. 2. Can't argue with that, but given that it's an island, shouldn't the other player be more prepared for drop play? 3. True enough, although it's not like Phoenix and Mutalisks can't shut down enemy drops just as well (perhaps better due to their far superior mobility). 4. There are ways you could design the map to prevent abuse. For example, large areas on islands where you can't build anything, meaning it would take actual units to prevent drops there. You could also have islands be close enough that turrets could be killed with Colosuss or blink.
I agree! . You can have 1-2 ledges high which can prevent or direct Colossus and Reaper abuse, also you can use small ledges to make it harder to abuse the range of units outside of an island (Tanks mainly). More maps need to be made and tested for it to work. I made one, but I suck at map making and haven't taken the time to refine it and begin testing.
On August 28 2011 14:13 dAPhREAk wrote: scrap station was an island map. i dont think it was that imbalanced for t, but generally i think they would be.
Scrap Station was just a map with an island expansion, the old Dire Straits from the original starcraft was an island map, and I think there was some snow island ladder map that came out with BW. I dont like the idea of island maps in SC2. Like its been mentioned already, terran could just turtle up with turrets and vikings and just starve out their opponent.
On August 28 2011 14:11 iGrok wrote: Goddamnit, use the search bar. This has been discussed forever. No.
Link to all these supposed discussions? I don't see any from the past 6 months and the ones from back then are mostly 1-2 line OPs with little discussion.
On August 28 2011 14:11 Chocolate wrote: Alzadar, why don't you make a good island map and we can try it out?
If I ever stumble upon a container of mapmaking skill, that will certainly be one of my first experiments!
Everyone keeps on repeating the same thing about how terran could expo really early, zerg and toss woudn't be able to and wouldn't be able to pressure whilst completely ignoring the OP's remarks about how there could be more than just one expansion on your beginning island.
On August 28 2011 13:59 Chocolate wrote: 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
On August 28 2011 14:12 sekritzzz wrote: There simply is no way to penetrate a terrans base with turrets lol. I have experimented in bronze league a year ago. Trust me it does not work.
Carriers. Broodlords. Sure, you could hold both off for a while, but you can only turtle that hard for so long.
Terran would be ridiculously op though. Triple CC first, loading up 5 scvs per trip. They'd have three bases up by the time zerg or toss would even be able to expand. Add in the fact that turrets are dirt cheap for early defense and marines are the best anti-air in the game and T would would easily dominate. Toss and zerg just aren't as flexible as T.
Your assuming that the starting island would only have one base on it. A good island map, I think would have a natural on the starting island. It would depend on the map, and in the hands on a professional map-maker, I think an island or semi-island map would be cool.
If the map was made so that maybe the 4th or 5th expos were on a island it could work. It would take too long for command centers to reach them to be worth doing early game, and by the time everyone should have air units. You could even put what would normally be a players 3rd base on a island provided it was far away enough so if terran tried to fly a command center over there it would take so long it would put them behind some if they tried to.
Either that or destructible rocks on all the island expos.
All expo landing positions would *have* to be initially blocked by rocks or minerals for Terran to not have an unfair macro advantage...and would have to wait for drops as would the other races
I think besides that it would be interesting to see.
If I had to guess I would say that it would favor Protoss at that point. Between Voidrays and phoenixes they seem like they would be the strongest in early air on air battles. I feel like zerg would probably be the weekest, just going on the rule of thumb that they are supposed to keep one base ahead...which would be impossible for a large amount of the early game. Nydus would be interesting for defending bases later on. I would actually be worried as terran as it got to late portions of the game, as they dont have warpgates or nydus to get defenses to bases later on.
I don't think it would be imbalanced; Would it be fun to watch? Perhaps for a couple games; However the biggest problem would definitely be the obvious lack of many early game units that can't hit air( who's going to make roaches when the enemy is going to be making void rays), and the obvious expectation of the enemy going air, therefor you remove a very large and important aspect of the entire gameplay.
On August 28 2011 14:19 Fleebu wrote: Everyone keeps on repeating the same thing about how terran could expo really early, zerg and toss woudn't be able to and wouldn't be able to pressure whilst completely ignoring the OP's remarks about how there could be more than just one expansion on your beginning island.
A lot of us have seen it before. Some semi-island maps are fine, but that doesn't change the fact that zerg air units are a lot weaker to their counter-parts and full-out island maps would be absolutely dreadful for them considering what happened with Brood War.
You know how everyone complains about Blizzard's map pool already? Imagine the outcry then. Heck, they probably tried full island maps already inhouse and made the conclusion that no one would want to play on their monasteries. Keep in mind, they don't know how to design balanced maps in the first place and in some cases want players to try all sorts of different play styles already from their interviews.
On August 28 2011 14:25 Tatari wrote: Standard Terran strategy for island maps.
@300 minerals build a cc @second 300 minerals build another cc @150 minerals build an engineering bay
Proceed to make 6 layer ring of turrets around 3 bases, 6 port mass BC rush.
Or they could go 6 port reactored Vikings. :/
Zerg can get a nydus on two-base, would that not completely destroy this? We have been discussing this with the assumption that the island map would have a natural expansion on the starting island.
On August 28 2011 14:25 Tatari wrote: Standard Terran strategy for island maps.
@300 minerals build a cc @second 300 minerals build another cc @150 minerals build an engineering bay
Proceed to make 6 layer ring of turrets around 3 bases, 6 port mass BC rush.
Or they could go 6 port reactored Vikings. :/
Other than the fact that you're hacking and building CCs with only 300 minerals, do you really think you could build sufficient defense to hold 3 separate bases against Void Ray or Warp Prism aggression, or Overlord drop or Nydus worms?
Seriously, Terrans have trouble holding 3Gate Void when they have only one point to defend. Defending three separate bases would be impossible, even with the delay required to get a Warp Prism.
On August 28 2011 14:25 Tatari wrote: Standard Terran strategy for island maps.
@300 minerals build a cc @second 300 minerals build another cc @150 minerals build an engineering bay
Proceed to make 6 layer ring of turrets around 3 bases, 6 port mass BC rush.
Or they could go 6 port reactored Vikings. :/
Wouldn't 2 OCs be better than 3 CCs? Mules are pretty good...
Meeeeeh, the point is, Terran can just holler out, "HOUSTON WE HAVE LIFT OFFFFFFFF!" and trololol with some Sky Terran build while making a Great Wall of China Turrets.
What about island maps that are separated by cliff rather than sea? Protoss can warp units through and walk colossi over, and terran can jump reapers over. This way early game is a bit more dynamic.
Terran would be so ridiculously strong on an island map as is. Their dropships heal, they're the only race that gets access to a legitimate flying spellcaster (mothership doesn't count), vikings have so much range and are the best anti-air air unit in general. They also just plain have the most air units in general.
Perhaps we should compile a list of island maps and all the beautiful stats with regards to them again ;o
All I'm saying, is there's probably a valid reason why Blizzard has stayed mum on them and the fact they edited such maps like Lost Temple to have semi-islands with rocks instead.
I definitely think it works on some maps as an expansion for late game play as a lot of the action would revolve around it (if it ever gets to that point anyway; would have to be a really good map already).
On August 28 2011 14:22 sheaRZerg wrote: All expo landing positions would *have* to be initially blocked by rocks or minerals for Terran to not have an unfair macro advantage...and would have to wait for drops as would the other races
I think besides that it would be interesting to see.
If I had to guess I would say that it would favor Protoss at that point. Between Voidrays and phoenixes they seem like they would be the strongest in early air on air battles. I feel like zerg would probably be the weekest, just going on the rule of thumb that they are supposed to keep one base ahead...which would be impossible for a large amount of the early game. Nydus would be interesting for defending bases later on. I would actually be worried as terran as it got to late portions of the game, as they dont have warpgates or nydus to get defenses to bases later on.
This would pretty much be the only time that destructible rocks were a good idea.
I'd love to see an island map in the ladder pool. If it's horribly unbalanced, people can just thumbs it down. If it turns out to be good then maybe we could see it in some competitive play.
Zerg has the most benefits. Nydus worm could transfer the entire army to the island. Terran could drop 1 ship of workers and the rest are MULEs. Protoss has the hardest time.
On August 28 2011 14:33 Whitewing wrote: Terran would be so ridiculously strong on an island map as is. Their dropships heal, they're the only race that gets access to a legitimate flying spellcaster (mothership doesn't count), vikings have so much range and are the best anti-air air unit in general. They also just plain have the most air units in general.
Well at least you aren't going on about lifting CCs...
However I'm not sure your arguments are really that compelling. I don't really see how Medivacs being able to heal would be all that much more significant on island maps than it is on regular maps, and because your opponent would be anticipating drops, they might actually be less effective. The Raven isn't really a good harass unit and is easily killed if it has no supporting units, and there wouldn't be any supporting units if they're stuck on the home island.
Part of the reason that makes Terran air strong is that it can pull back to the safety of a Marine ball if it is threatened, if that isn't available then Vikings, Banshees, Ravens, Medivacs and even Battlecruisers are all very vulnerable to enemy air, because they can't retreat. If you bring your Vikings close to the enemy and it turns out he has 2 more Phoenix than you, you will lose everything.
I don't know why people are saying terran would be OP...
Seems to me zerg would have a MASSIVE advantage.
A) Early game harass/cheese, every zerg's nightmare, would no longer be an issue.
B) Terran have no answer for mutalisks except marines, and in certain situations thor. Note that both of these are ground units. To transport them across islands, they need to be carried in medivacs. Any zerg player worth his salt would have no issue cutting the terran's supply instantly should he move out. Protoss have phoenix which are good vs muta if in even quantities. Unfortunately zerg can mutas way way faster.
C) Infestors can fungal dropships/prisms over air if not making mutas.
D) Zerg have the only, albeit slow, early game air scouting unit. On maps with multiple spawns, zerg will be able to find their opponent first, and contain the surrounding airspace with mutas easily.
E) Nydus worm. Somewhat expensive yes, but there is no chance you will lose your entire army because your transports are shot down. Plus, even if you do plan on drops, zerg have the most readily available dropship unit, only requiring one/two upgrades from a building they will have anyway.
I don't think island maps would work at all. Protoss/terran would have one hell of a hard time just leaving their island. Yes turrets are good. But you can't attack with them.
Protoss would have no chance. Terran could have a chance if they double CC after engi bay or something and double expanded. But a good zerg player will have a throng of mutas out soon enough and will shut down any dropships that venture out. A long starvation game will ensue where the zerg will win as the terran will be stuck on 3 bases without options to leave.
That was pretty long TLDR: No, I think it would be a bad idea. And it's been discussed before anyway. :D
I wouldn't particularly mind seeing an island map introduced, its always good to re-examine expectations and opinions to see if they're (still) accurate.
I agree with the consensus that it would probably favour Terran. Protoss would probably recieve the worst end of the stick, been the race most vulnerable to drops and not really having air units factor too heavily in the current metagame. But then again it could evolve new strategies for protoss to secure an island. So yeah worth a shot maybe, if its completely one-sided it can always be vetoed and then yanked at the next map rotation.
Protoss has always been a race that relied on map styles for wins, its possible to have an island map favor Toss as well, especially with the warp in mechanic. I think its all largely based on the specific map in question, and any arguing about build orders and race imbalance is really silly when you don't know what map your playing on. Island maps require a different meta-game which makes it understandable to keep them away from the competitive scene, which may be why we don't see any good island maps yet.
On August 28 2011 14:46 MuteZephyr wrote: I don't know why people are saying terran would be OP...
Seems to me zerg would have a MASSIVE advantage.
A) Early game harass/cheese, every zerg's nightmare, would no longer be an issue.
B) Terran have no answer for mutalisks except marines, and in certain situations thor. Note that both of these are ground units. To transport them across islands, they need to be carried in medivacs. Any zerg player worth his salt would have no issue cutting the terran's supply instantly should he move out. Protoss have phoenix which are good vs muta if in even quantities. Unfortunately zerg can mutas way way faster.
C) Infestors can fungal dropships/prisms over air if not making mutas.
D) Zerg have the only, albeit slow, early game air scouting unit. On maps with multiple spawns, zerg will be able to find their opponent first, and contain the surrounding airspace with mutas easily.
E) Nydus worm. Somewhat expensive yes, but there is no chance you will lose your entire army because your transports are shot down. Plus, even if you do plan on drops, zerg have the most readily available dropship unit, only requiring one/two upgrades from a building they will have anyway.
I don't think island maps would work at all. Protoss/terran would have one hell of a hard time just leaving their island. Yes turrets are good. But you can't attack with them.
Protoss would have no chance. Terran could have a chance if they double CC after engi bay or something and double expanded. But a good zerg player will have a throng of mutas out soon enough and will shut down any dropships that venture out. A long starvation game will ensue where the zerg will win as the terran will be stuck on 3 bases without options to leave.
That was pretty long TLDR: No, I think it would be a bad idea. And it's been discussed before anyway. :D
+1
Mutalisks are the best all-purpose (ground damage, air damage, tech level, and cost) air unit in the game, and on island maps air units and drops reign supreme. Since zerg also have two ways to drop and generally are the most vulnerable to very early game all-ins on normal maps, my personal opinion is that zerg would benefit the most from an island map.
On August 28 2011 14:19 Fleebu wrote: Everyone keeps on repeating the same thing about how terran could expo really early, zerg and toss woudn't be able to and wouldn't be able to pressure whilst completely ignoring the OP's remarks about how there could be more than just one expansion on your beginning island.
A lot of us have seen it before. Some semi-island maps are fine, but that doesn't change the fact that zerg air units are a lot weaker to their counter-parts
You keep differentiating between Blizzard map makers and and professional map makers... As far as I know the only professional map makers in sc2 work for Blizzard.
To your idea, I see no point in playing island maps. They flip so much in the game upside down - and if I was to play a completely different type of map in Starcraft 2, it sure as hell wouldn't be an island map.
Here are the only viable strategies on a map like oyu purposed: one base air rush, one base nydus rush, one base warprism rush (+- a heavy turtle terran). See the problem now?
I wish there were more island maps. They say Terran would be imbalanced, but I think that would only be true if we are talking about small islands. Think of zerg, if your T opponent was on the other side of a river, you would not have to worry about early bunkers. you could even go three-hatch before pool at times.
I just think it needs to be tried more, especially with 2-3 base per island.
well, my first thought is there are probably imbalances. but then thought #2 is has anyone really thoroughly tested it? do we really know? maybe blizz has already done this but i havent ever read any info about island maps being imbalanced for any race.
terran would dominate badly in islands, not only are their drops very powerful, the viking pretty much ensures air superiority with theri 9 range and damage to armored. protoss could go pheonixs to kill vikings but 1-2 thors would ruin that badly. same problem with zerg, mutas get owned by thors. depending on how much empty space, spellcasters like ht and infestor would have a hard time casting therefore terrans will nearly always have have air superiority and they will be able to always dictate the pace of the game with drops and bashee harass. droping for protoss and zerg against terran would be a one way trip.
I think that island maps are definitely something that should be experimented with, but I strongly believe that Terran would have a large advantage if the map is entirely islands. Maybe a map where players start on an island, but all the other expansions are on some sort of mainland. It's possible that this would work, but with this Terran would be able to fast expand by flying a CC over to the mainland and the other races would not be able to do that.
I know that I will surely be experimenting with this, maybe some other map makers will to
for all those who are talking about Terran being able to FE to other expoes by lifting off CCs, map makers can simply implement a BW map-making trick where they placed 8min patches (5 for SC2) around the island to eliminate Terran liftoff advantage.
Back in beta I wanted SC2 to experiment with island maps and I still do. I understand why they got taken out in BW. But SC2 is not BW. The things that made island maps imba or boring may or may not hold true in SC2. If we experiment and we fail, that we know that island maps don't work. We know more and we're the wiser for our efforts. But it makes no sense to write off an entire set of maps because of a different game's history or theorycraft imba arguments.
One way to offset the Terran's early flying CC's is to copy Python's island expansion method. 8 mineral crystal blocking the natural building spot for a CC. So then they'd have to develop drop technology to get the worker over to mine it, and then land the CC. Now there is the problem of whether the rest of the island is unbuildable which would be unfortunate for static defence. But you could experiment with buildable spaces for static defences, but not big enough for a command centre.
I originally thought toss would be op, because they only really need 1 warp prism, and can warp in everything, but truely, terran is op. I'll explain in 2 words: Sensor tower. If I played on an island map, it would involve making a lot of orbitals for a lot of mules, sensor towers, and a few marines to protect me. I can slowly tech, and once I get on land, I'll have a ridiculous econ lead. Not to mention offensive sonsor towers (rushing) would be insanely good at denying another race from moving out.
On August 28 2011 15:28 ArvickHero wrote: for all those who are talking about Terran being able to FE to other expoes by lifting off CCs, map makers can simply implement a BW map-making trick where they placed 8min patches (5 for SC2) around the island to eliminate Terran liftoff advantage.
The mineral block was a good trick in BW, but I honestly feel that destructible rocks would be better, simply because a command centre (not orbital command) can load up 5 SCV's and unload them before landing. Therefore, a Terran could mine 25 minerals before landing the CC. Is 30 minerals enough to block it? Terran can fly back to base, especially if there isn't a large distance between the islands. How high would the minerals need to go to prevent Terran players from mining it out before landing the CC?
I'm also not sure what happens when you load SCV's that are carrying minerals. Do they take the minerals in and out of the CC without depositing them? That would be kind of funny.
Destructible rocks are a bit better, although I guess Terran could still drop SCV's and attack them that way. It seems a bit more even though, given how long it will take 5 SCV's to kill some destructible rocks.
On August 28 2011 13:59 Chocolate wrote: 4. Terrans might figure out that if they spam turrets, especially with both building upgrades, they would be nigh unbeatable against toss.
On August 28 2011 14:12 sekritzzz wrote: There simply is no way to penetrate a terrans base with turrets lol. I have experimented in bronze league a year ago. Trust me it does not work.
Carriers. Broodlords. Sure, you could hold both off for a while, but you can only turtle that hard for so long.
Terran would be ridiculously op though. Triple CC first, loading up 5 scvs per trip. They'd have three bases up by the time zerg or toss would even be able to expand. Add in the fact that turrets are dirt cheap for early defense and marines are the best anti-air in the game and T would would easily dominate. Toss and zerg just aren't as flexible as T.
I agree. There was a game on a Day9 daily where a guy took the island on Scrap and immediately ringed in 3-4 layers of turrets. The Protoss took the map, built up a bunch of carriers, and tried to attack the island only to have all his intercepters shot down again and again. He eventually left out of frustration. He turtled forever on 1/5th the economy of the protoss. Protoss could've won if he kept forcing the terran to remake turrets and mine out but that would've taken forever.
That's not something I would want to watch in a tournament.
On August 28 2011 15:28 ArvickHero wrote: for all those who are talking about Terran being able to FE to other expoes by lifting off CCs, map makers can simply implement a BW map-making trick where they placed 8min patches (5 for SC2) around the island to eliminate Terran liftoff advantage.
Pretty sure on island maps Terran would be imbalanced because the strongest maxed out army in SC2 is a Terran with a mass orbital farm and all supply in battlecruisers/ravens and ghosts + nukes.
And on islands...if the game gets extended, Zerg air has zero chance to compete against protoss air/terran air in late game. It basically goes like this in terms of air
Zerg<Protoss<Terran.
That is assuming that Terran is able to make it to that late game scenario. Otherwise, protoss does have warp-in...and warp prisms+recall, and even tho in extended late game scenarios mass mutas would not be able to handle mass ravens/bcs or carriers/phoenixs/voids...there would be a lot of potential for Zerg to play momentum based with mass muta play and nydusing expos...the only problem would be breaking expansions...
They would be interesting I would think though ! It would be interesting to see a well designed island map, but i doubt it will happen.
Island maps = Stalemates. The problem is that defensive capabilities way outpower offensive far too often.
Also the Terran advantage seems too strong. Reactor Vikings = Instant Air Superiority, floating Commands = macro advantage, Medivacs are ridiculously good as it is...
Island maps are like the chess equivalent of the variation of chess where you randomize the starting location of your back 8 pieces, it means for better or worse you rely more on game sense and creativity than a practiced well worn repetition. Bobby Fischer was the greatest chess player of all time and heavily endorsed this kind of game, and I think it would be good for SC2 as well, but I am not sure it has a place in high level tournaments without an established meta game for people to enjoy when watching.
There well be no way to scout imo that would be the worst issue with island map. Terran could 15 CC all day and get away with it. It would be to much of a coin flip situation because lack of scout imo. Terran could do 15 CC, 2 port banshee, marine drop....
ZvT will pretty have to go 1 base mutas to be able to apply pressure/scout enemy base and control the air so he doesnt die to anything stupid like that. Terran could also 15 CC and turret up and would be vastly fair ahead and nothing zerg can really do about it. Unless you wana do a nydus opening and expand somewhere but then you might die to 2 port banshee or some drop or something along that line....basically it come to coin flip.
PvT will probably open robo as well so they dont die to any silly banshee or stargate play. Stargate can look scary but I think threat of banshee will usually make this a phoenix opener instead but void ray will pretty much neutralize 15 CC or any fast FE without starport. So I think protoss will have advantage some wat considering if they make phoenix they can dominate air. Phoenix > everything in starport except BC. From there, I think terran has to play defensive and slowly take island by island. I think this might be an interesting match up.
This is from terran perspective so I think this probably be how the meta game would be if their air. TvZ would be to much of coinflip to ever work imo.
I think Protoss would have the easiest time with island maps and although I don't exactly like island maps I think they should be tried out sometime. Who knows it might be a lot more fun then people might think.
An island map would just be beyond boring...it'd be beyond far to easy to turtle for hours on end even if you had little to no chance of winning the game. Stuff like turtling islands is why you've seen every single true island taken out of sc2 in tournaments and on ladder already.
It's already been 'experimented'....scrap station, islands on lost temple....etc....it didn't work it made for turtles that took forever to break and boring games...there is 100% absolutely no need for any true island maps to ever enter sc2 ever again.
On August 28 2011 16:07 Lamphead wrote: Island maps are like the chess equivalent of the variation of chess where you randomize the starting location of your back 8 pieces, it means for better or worse you rely more on game sense and creativity than a practiced well worn repetition. Bobby Fischer was the greatest chess player of all time and heavily endorsed this kind of game, and I think it would be good for SC2 as well, but I am not sure it has a place in high level tournaments without an established meta game for people to enjoy when watching.
I don't understand your comparison. How do Island maps make it random? If it's played there will be eventually established strategies and 1 or more likely 2 races excluded as inferior, but it won't end up random. If 2 people play right now with no idea of the strategies it still won't be 'random' although yes it might favour the person who thinks better. But it soon gets figured out..
The Island map tournament for BW not so long ago was very fun. All races involved and some crazy crazy games. You can theory-craft imbalances all you like and we all know Island maps are not balanced but clearly it was still fun.
If what people say about defenders advantage on Islands is true though then it's not going to work, although i can't help thinking it's still totally theoretical.. if people turtle too hard then design maps that force otherwise with low eco bases.
On August 28 2011 16:07 Lamphead wrote: Island maps are like the chess equivalent of the variation of chess where you randomize the starting location of your back 8 pieces, it means for better or worse you rely more on game sense and creativity than a practiced well worn repetition. Bobby Fischer was the greatest chess player of all time and heavily endorsed this kind of game, and I think it would be good for SC2 as well, but I am not sure it has a place in high level tournaments without an established meta game for people to enjoy when watching.
I don't understand your comparison. How do Island maps make it random? If it's played there will be eventually established strategies and 1 or more likely 2 races excluded as inferior, but it won't end up random. If 2 people play right now with no idea of the strategies it still won't be 'random' although yes it might favour the person who thinks better. But it soon gets figured out..
The Island map tournament for BW not so long ago was very fun. All races involved and some crazy crazy games. You can theory-craft imbalances all you like and we all know Island maps are not balanced but clearly it was still fun.
If what people say about defenders advantage on Islands is true though then it's not going to work, although i can't help thinking it's still totally theoretical..
It's more that it's so mixed up that everything becomes completely non-standard and you have to throw much of what you know out the window.
I think that as long as there's a natural on your starting island, terran won't be impossibly favored. Zerg nydus and drop play would be really viable, and I actually think a ground-based zerg army on an island map could be VERY difficult to deal with. Secure 2 islands for 4 bases, using nydus to connect yourself as well as for some aggression, and I think you could tech to broodlord infestor like that relatively unimpeded. Yes, marine drops are scary, but the scariest part about marine drops is the tank push coming for your front door 2 minutes later... which just doesn't work the same way. You can focus all your attention on denying drops and using fungal to prevent any form of escape. I definitely think watching some ZVT on a decently made island map could be neat.
On August 28 2011 15:28 ArvickHero wrote: for all those who are talking about Terran being able to FE to other expoes by lifting off CCs, map makers can simply implement a BW map-making trick where they placed 8min patches (5 for SC2) around the island to eliminate Terran liftoff advantage.
Nope. Mules + load workers means not viable.
Oh yeah. I forgot about the load workers for regular CC's. Hm, that's rather annoying. Does anyone actually use that ability except for islands? Seems a rather odd ability thrown in by Blizzard.
On August 28 2011 16:05 avilo wrote: Pretty sure on island maps Terran would be imbalanced because the strongest maxed out army in SC2 is a Terran with a mass orbital farm and all supply in battlecruisers/ravens and ghosts + nukes.
And on islands...if the game gets extended, Zerg air has zero chance to compete against protoss air/terran air in late game. It basically goes like this in terms of air
Zerg<Protoss<Terran.
That is assuming that Terran is able to make it to that late game scenario. Otherwise, protoss does have warp-in...and warp prisms+recall, and even tho in extended late game scenarios mass mutas would not be able to handle mass ravens/bcs or carriers/phoenixs/voids...there would be a lot of potential for Zerg to play momentum based with mass muta play and nydusing expos...the only problem would be breaking expansions...
They would be interesting I would think though ! It would be interesting to see a well designed island map, but i doubt it will happen.
Terran would definitely have strongest late game but I think early game to mid game, protoss will be strongeset. Considering that Phoenix owns everything in the starport cept BC and the threat of void ray harassing discourages mega fast expo without starport and mutas. They will pretty much force corruptors and corruptors are might allow zerg to expand but I dont know how cost effectiviely they fair vs void rays.
We can't really know for sure how they'll work out if we don't test them. Like back in BW when there was that one island map Paradoxxx or something. Still remember that Boxer game
Maybe one of those map makers who made maps for GSL could think about this and try to make awesome map for GSL so we could get a serious testing if it works (Worth of one season imo) (Though it may get downvoted by many players ;P)
Personally I'd like to see a good island map played in somekind of high level league/tournament. Just to see how the game changes from the original playstyles and so on. And of course to see if they really work.
I agree that scouting would be a fairly serious problem, though I think Terran could do 15 CC or 2 port banshee anyhow, because how are you going to punish greedy play on an island map? Terran air superiority could also be a serious problem - once they had a few vikings out, I don't see drop play or Nyduses having much of a chance. I imagine the metagame would evolve into TvT only, with lots and lots of viings.
That being said, why not give it a shot? My SC2 ranking indicates that I'm pretty dumb about this game, maybe island maps would be awesome. And experimentation is something to encourage - maybe something cool could come of this!
It should really be a ladder map first and let the meta game flourish on how to play island map then it can be considered to be put into GSL. I would hate to see someone like Nestea lose to something stupid like 1 base 3 stargete void ray off one base or something.
There is no point of wasting time thinking are island maps balanced or not because they are unplayable for other reason. This is scouting. Unless you are zerg, you cant scout -> you cant get a skill based win.
I'm not saying that island play cannot be balanced, and that it can't provide a good gameplay experience, I think more that it's just too irregular with normal gameplay. I mean when drops have to be relied on so much that it seems more viable to go mass air, it severely limits the unit compositions each race has.
Plus I think Blizzard already released a 2 player island map, but it wasn't really used past the first phase of the beta, if not at all.
On August 28 2011 14:12 sekritzzz wrote: There simply is no way to penetrate a terrans base with turrets lol. I have experimented in bronze league a year ago. Trust me it does not work.
I once entered a 1v1 (on Delta Quadrant) in Bronze against a Protoss who contained me by building nothing but cannons across the whole fucking map. I think by the end, he had about 100+ photon cannons containing me on 1 base.
Me, being the stupid Bronze League hero that I was thought it was OP, tried to spend 20 or so mins one basing to try and bust the contain, tried everything I could including Ultralisks, a mass of Roach Hydra, Zerglings etc but couldn't bust it.
However, Brood Lords can outrange all anti-air structures. Had I built them, it would have been an instant-gg
They have never been a good idea for ten years now and they're still not a good idea.
Terran is going to have the obvious advantage, there's no way around it; it takes so much time for other races to be able to effectively use the terrain. Not that protoss and zerg don't have the tools, but there's just no time for you to tech quickly enough when a cc or a barracks will complete ages before warp prisms or nydus worms.
Well for those of you looking for an island map there is always debris field which is a map made by blizzard but (rightfully so) never made it to ladder. People tend to forget that there are other melee maps from blizzard than those on ladder.
Maybe not island maps, but sem-island maps would be great i think, till now we only had lost temple and srap station with island expos, but they were not so great, idk why mapmapkers and blizzard are not making more of them.
oh, i forgot about Desert oasis hah, that map was awesome
On August 28 2011 16:32 Sea_Food wrote: There is no point of wasting time thinking are island maps balanced or not because they are unplayable for other reason. This is scouting. Unless you are zerg, you cant scout -> you cant get a skill based win.
I disagree. You certainly can scout, it's just delayed in most cases. (Barracks could actually just float to scout, if that's such a big deal.) But then a lot of the early rush attacks are delayed too and a lot of builds are ruled out. Really don't have to worry about those baneling busts or 4warpgate builds. So they're probably going macro or air, so your preparation will adjust accordingly. I can't theorycraft on how exactly because we just don't have the island maps.
But it is certainly not the case of no scouting, it's all delayed, but so is the timing attacks. If banshee rushes are so great, opponents will prepare accordingly. And robo, stargate, or hallucinate aren't that far away considering that the m&m force won't be knocking on your door as soon as stim is researched- it's an island.
But there's still the problem of those floating CC's that for some inexplicable reason can pick up workers...
I would love it if next GSL just included an island map. BAM. I don't care if it's imba, it's entertainment. Players can veto one map so it wouldn't be like "Oh NesTea lost because of the island map." We would see all new strategies from every race, imagine it!
If it really proves to be too good for Terran then it'll be taken out, but it'll be something to talk about.
Island maps just favor Terran by a lot. Safe expansion, easily defended (turrets or PF), Medivacs for easy transport and ofc flying buildings :D. For Zergs, its definitely really bad since you won't have any way of defending it properly (spines just die quickly and zergs rely on ground army so you can't rally your army from this base). For Protoss, i guess it's easier to defend because of warp ins but those units will be stuck there. Unlike Terran you don't build multiple prism compare to medivacs that can be use in different ways. Also mules, just drop tons of mules and dry the resources there so you won't need to worry about it getting destroyed.
I do think Island maps are very unfavourite towards Zerg, because Zerg can only expand after researching drop, similarly for Protoss, who need a warp prism. In the meantime, Terran will just go cc first because there will be no early pressure.
On August 28 2011 17:34 DarKcS wrote: OP, how long have you been playing Starcraft? Did you not see the crappy island liftoff time wasters in beta/post-release lost temple?
Unfortunately like the others said, I think it would be a bit too easy for terran in the situation
I LOVE island maps in basically all games though, so I would love to see blizz implement some map mechanic or at least some way to try to balance this out and add it in.
the entire game of sc2 has been designed around maps with direct access to your opponent. island maps, just as in bw, would negate all the attempts made by the developers to balance the game. its basically just like team games.
On August 28 2011 18:02 branflakes14 wrote: Floating expansions and flying Dark Templar really would make Terran ridiculous to play against. At least that's my first impression.
Haha yeah
Floating infrastructure, Flying DT's, Inexpensive drops that require a portion of Zerg/Protoss's army to defend, commands unmatchable air dominance with Raven/Viking/BC, Bases that defend themselves and worst of all...Hellions! :p The race looks like it was built for that kind of stuff
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
This.
Anyone who followed BW in its early days would know - there are videos of Boxer playing island map matches - island match ups disappeared in Brood war simply 'cause it gets old after a short while. Island maps force players to adapt certain play styles, and it simply gets boring.
We expect to see maps where there are variety of options a gamer can take.
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
This.
Anyone who followed BW in its early days would know - there are videos of Boxer playing island map matches - island match ups disappeared in Brood war simply 'cause it gets old after a short while. Island maps force players to adapt certain play styles, and it simply gets boring.
We expect to see maps where there are variety of options a gamer can take.
"Island maps" are still used in BW, Bisu vs Crazy Hydra was awesome, Flash vs Jaedong was awesome.
As for forcing play styles. On dreamliner we saw ... Flash opening 5 rax (as in 5 supply) into expand Jaedong going overpool Jaedong going lurker instead of muta Jaedong going for overlord transport to get island 4th Flash going for defense matrix drop on 4th Jaedong going for doom drop in Flash's main Flash defending doom drop Flash winning with crazy defense multi-prong play
Alternative
Dreamliner
The problem with blizzard maps was that they didn't put a mineral patch on the island to balance it between all races. They probably tried using destructible rocks, but we all know how that would go down.
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
This.
Anyone who followed BW in its early days would know - there are videos of Boxer playing island map matches - island match ups disappeared in Brood war simply 'cause it gets old after a short while. Island maps force players to adapt certain play styles, and it simply gets boring.
We expect to see maps where there are variety of options a gamer can take.
"Island maps" are still used in BW, Bisu vs Crazy Hydra was awesome, Flash vs Jaedong was awesome.
The problem with blizzard maps was that they didn't put a mineral patch on the island to balance it between all races. They probably tried using destructible rocks, but we all know how that would go down.
How on earth are those island maps? I see direct ground routes (mnever played on them so maybe I'm missing something).
Also yet again the min patch does not work on sc2. you can either just drop mules until they r gone or do the scv unload.
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
This.
Anyone who followed BW in its early days would know - there are videos of Boxer playing island map matches - island match ups disappeared in Brood war simply 'cause it gets old after a short while. Island maps force players to adapt certain play styles, and it simply gets boring.
We expect to see maps where there are variety of options a gamer can take.
"Island maps" are still used in BW, Bisu vs Crazy Hydra was awesome, Flash vs Jaedong was awesome.
The problem with blizzard maps was that they didn't put a mineral patch on the island to balance it between all races. They probably tried using destructible rocks, but we all know how that would go down.
How on earth are those island maps? I see direct ground routes (mnever played on them so maybe I'm missing something).
Also yet again the min patch does not work on sc2. you can either just drop mules until they r gone or do the scv unload.
Alternative has the high ground expansion, which you need air-transport to get to.
Dreamliner has the 4 oclock true island expansion, and the 10 oclock which needs air transport.
I take your point about the min-patch issue in SC2. Maybe make sure the CC can't land without the min-patch gone, and the min-patch has 24 minerals (or 6 patches with 1 minerals). This means you can't drop 5 scvs from the CC and mine it out, as you need to use 6 scvs (i guess you can still float the CC back and forth, not sure if its worth it though). You need an overlord/prism/medivac full of workers in order to take the base. Zerg can nydus, but the ability under-used anyway so that would be a good thing.
Edit: Oh wait mules, oops, herp derp. Sigh. I guess have a 10 hp destructible rock, rather than a 10,000 hp one. I dunno.
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
This.
Anyone who followed BW in its early days would know - there are videos of Boxer playing island map matches - island match ups disappeared in Brood war simply 'cause it gets old after a short while. Island maps force players to adapt certain play styles, and it simply gets boring.
We expect to see maps where there are variety of options a gamer can take.
"Island maps" are still used in BW, Bisu vs Crazy Hydra was awesome, Flash vs Jaedong was awesome.
The problem with blizzard maps was that they didn't put a mineral patch on the island to balance it between all races. They probably tried using destructible rocks, but we all know how that would go down.
How on earth are those island maps? I see direct ground routes (mnever played on them so maybe I'm missing something).
Also yet again the min patch does not work on sc2. you can either just drop mules until they r gone or do the scv unload.
Alternative has the high ground expansion, which you need air-transport to get to.
Dreamliner has the 4 oclock true island expansion, and the 10 oclock which needs air transport.
I take your point about the min-patch issue in SC2. Maybe make sure the CC can't land without the min-patch gone, and the min-patch has 24 minerals (or 6 patches with 1 minerals). This means you can't drop 5 scvs from the CC and mine it out, as you need to use 6 scvs (i guess you can still float the CC back and forth, not sure if its worth it though). You need an overlord/prism/medivac full of workers in order to take the base. Zerg can nydus, but the ability under-used anyway so that would be a good thing.
Edit: Oh wait mules, oops, herp derp. Sigh. I guess have a 10 hp destructible rock, rather than a 10,000 hp one. I dunno.
That's just an island expansion, is Scrap Yard an island map?
Island expansions would heavily favor Terran. A Planetary Fortress with turrets would be invulnerable while Terran has an easy time dropping or even sieging island expansions. I don't see it working, sorry.
Please Blizzard, add one island map to the map pool and increase the veto map option by +1. Then Terrans will own all noobs that do not veto that map and it is clear for everyone, that island maps are not a good thought with the SC2 Units.
Tbh I see Protoss being the strongest with warpprisms. Maybe not on a pure island map but on semi island maps like Hall of Valhalla.
I see the warp in mechanics as really powerful and the terran anti air potential as not such a huge problem because turrets can be picked of by gound forces.
whoever says island maps are less enjoyable need to watch Boxer and jumbi (i think it was jumbi?) pvt hour and like 10 minutes long, everything mined out goliaths vs carriers, no one thought boxer would win and he did it.
On August 28 2011 13:56 Slakter wrote: Doesnt matter if it´s balanced or not, playing and watching island maps are less enjoyable than ramming a knife into my nose.
This.
Anyone who followed BW in its early days would know - there are videos of Boxer playing island map matches - island match ups disappeared in Brood war simply 'cause it gets old after a short while. Island maps force players to adapt certain play styles, and it simply gets boring.
We expect to see maps where there are variety of options a gamer can take.
"Island maps" are still used in BW, Bisu vs Crazy Hydra was awesome, Flash vs Jaedong was awesome.
The problem with blizzard maps was that they didn't put a mineral patch on the island to balance it between all races. They probably tried using destructible rocks, but we all know how that would go down.
How on earth are those island maps? I see direct ground routes (mnever played on them so maybe I'm missing something).
Also yet again the min patch does not work on sc2. you can either just drop mules until they r gone or do the scv unload.
Alternative has the high ground expansion, which you need air-transport to get to.
Dreamliner has the 4 oclock true island expansion, and the 10 oclock which needs air transport.
I take your point about the min-patch issue in SC2. Maybe make sure the CC can't land without the min-patch gone, and the min-patch has 24 minerals (or 6 patches with 1 minerals). This means you can't drop 5 scvs from the CC and mine it out, as you need to use 6 scvs (i guess you can still float the CC back and forth, not sure if its worth it though). You need an overlord/prism/medivac full of workers in order to take the base. Zerg can nydus, but the ability under-used anyway so that would be a good thing.
Edit: Oh wait mules, oops, herp derp. Sigh. I guess have a 10 hp destructible rock, rather than a 10,000 hp one. I dunno.
That's just an island expansion, is Scrap Yard an island map?
Ohhhhhhhhhh now I get it, I thought he meant a map with islands.
On August 28 2011 20:49 MERLIN. wrote: whoever says island maps are less enjoyable need to watch Boxer and jumbi (i think it was jumbi?) pvt hour and like 10 minutes long, everything mined out goliaths vs carriers, no one thought boxer would win and he did it.
I think that whilst Terran's would have a racial advantage in general on island maps, I'd be surprised if clever map makers couldn't design a map to negate the particular racial advantages that would become apparent through that map type.
I'd be interested in seeing the results of attempts to create a balanced island map type, and I don't think it *should* be impossible but I'd want it to be very carefully designed and tested before being used for anything other than customs.
No no no no no no and a hundred times no. Having island maps in star craft 2 is the worst idea anyone could ever think of. Warp prisms are made of cardboard, what's the point in making island maps if blink stalkers can blink there, protoss air units could only be used defensively. And I imagine that in the end protoss would end up with 200/200 void ray army with a mothership which would be absolutely stupid. I can't speak for other races, but having island maps would be retarded.
Ignore who gets the better deal out of an Island map. In leagues where players can veto a map the island map is going to be banned every single time. It requires far too much time to practice and create different strategies for that one specific map.
On August 28 2011 16:32 Sea_Food wrote: There is no point of wasting time thinking are island maps balanced or not because they are unplayable for other reason. This is scouting. Unless you are zerg, you cant scout -> you cant get a skill based win.
I disagree. You certainly can scout, it's just delayed in most cases. (Barracks could actually just float to scout, if that's such a big deal.) But then a lot of the early rush attacks are delayed too and a lot of builds are ruled out. Really don't have to worry about those baneling busts or 4warpgate builds. So they're probably going macro or air, so your preparation will adjust accordingly. I can't theorycraft on how exactly because we just don't have the island maps.
But it is certainly not the case of no scouting, it's all delayed, but so is the timing attacks. If banshee rushes are so great, opponents will prepare accordingly. And robo, stargate, or hallucinate aren't that far away considering that the m&m force won't be knocking on your door as soon as stim is researched- it's an island.
But there's still the problem of those floating CC's that for some inexplicable reason can pick up workers...
You cannot scout before you have made the commitment to what are you going. For terran scouting with barracks you should only find enemy after you have decided do you go drop rush (anti FE), vikings or bio(anti drop rush), or FE (anti vikings/muta/pheonix). There would be versions of those but bacicly its rock paper scissors. For protoss you cannot scout at all, but bacicly its the same.
On August 28 2011 14:03 Active.815 wrote: why are people saying terran are gonna be imba lol
Terran drops are just as vulnerable as everyone elses, and interceptor air units are slower TT'
Phoenixes do bonus to medivacs, mutas are just good AA because of bounce, vikings are just average...
and zerg have corruptors. g_g
Phoenix do NOT have bonus damage against medivacs, it takes 19 shots from a Phoenix to kill a Medivac. Medivacs have 150 life (armored) and one intrinsic point in armor so Phoenixes do 2 less damage per volley. 150/8=18.75.
Vikings fight evenly, or better, versus Phoenixes and Mutalisks once numbers hit critical points.... Ravens negate every non-Carrier/Mothership Anti-air air unit's attacks.
island maps would be nice if there where ships in starcraft but since there are no ships island maps seems just silly to me
think like manny others here it would be absolutely horrible to play i mean how could you ever kill the opponents main island? his static defence+army will always be able to stop your attacking force he could make only ground units with anti air if he wanted and be impossible to finish off
toss would be favoured as having the by far strongest airforce with 200/200 cariers carriers and bl seems good since they can siege the edges of the island with range without beeing able to be hit by ground forces, still dont see them hitting the centre of the island though
There is no way to know without extensive practice on the island maps.
People making claims of balance and what will happen are all false. The game would be radically different without the threat of early pressure, so all current understanding of the game goes out the window. Imposssible to theorize it, so there is no real point in doing so.
On August 28 2011 20:49 MERLIN. wrote: whoever says island maps are less enjoyable need to watch Boxer and jumbi (i think it was jumbi?) pvt hour and like 10 minutes long, everything mined out goliaths vs carriers, no one thought boxer would win and he did it.
Yeah... get off that rant.
Some of these comments are outrageous. Some of you don't know the difference between an island map, a semi-island map and a map with an island expo and the match you speak of was was JoyO on Paradoxxx as the other guy pointed. I even posted this question in the trivia blog. :/. At least you have a vague idea.
I think it's an interesting concept. With the Nydus and warp-in mechanics (Warp Prism), Protoss and Zerg have ways of getting massive amounts of units to a single island with less than 200 minerals/gas invested. Terran can obviously lift off their command center and get bases/production to an island, but not a massive amount of units. A map with 4-5 islands and two bases per island might be a good place to start experimenting.
Only when lift-of of terran buildings will cost some gas and minerals (as example like 2 mineral and 1 gas per second of flying) island maps will be balanced.
Imagine a zerg vs terran matchup. Terran can go comand center first without risk and take two bases. Zerg cannot expand until drop play or nydus comes in. At this point the terran eco would already be unstoppable and I am not sure if you could even hold your island expansion because the terran could already have banshees.
As Terran, I agree island maps would greatly favor island maps, not for units but for Command Centers. They'd be able to expand way before Z or P could get any drop ships out. For Z it'd be especially tricky.
That said I think seeing huge Nydus, Warp and Drop play could be a lot of fun.
There is way too much random theorycrafting in this thread.
I'd love to see island maps, could be a lot of fun. Obviously, simply deciding something like "oh we will just use an island map next MLG" would be a bad idea, but island maps should definitely be tried one way or another. There are tons of ways to influence island map balance via map design, i.e. island maps can be more than just something like Dire Straits from BW.
Is there any way to make areas which you can drop/warp prism/nydus that can't be defended by turrets (so have to defended by an army) and put those on non-main islands. I know you could make it indefensible with turret for all races drops (think layers of smoke screen 1 wide). Put an expo on the main islands and dest rocks on all other bases (maybe 3rd bases 500 hp, 4th bases 2k hp, gold bases 4k hp). Create larger islands with kinda sub-maps to encourage ground uses (3-4 expansions on these to encourage control with ground units, ramps etc. like you'd see on a normal map with xel'nagas perhaps in places). Perhaps make these islands close enough to the main for high range units (tanks/blords/colossus??) to be defended by ground armies to attack the very edge of the main (to allow for drops/nydus if another unit is giving vision) - issue here is the significantly larger range siege tanks have but if main islands are big enough it shouldn't be an issue? May fiddle in map editor but i'm pretty bad at shaping islands/bases etc. well
A strictly island map would be extremely imba and would make for slow pace, boring games. Something mental (in the map editing sector) would have to be done to avoid this and at the moment I believe nobody has found it.
I think it would have something to do with destructible debris and natural expansions. all I can say at the moment :D
Maybe not island maps, but a map with lots of island expansions? Say, your main natural and third are accesable as normal. But all other bases (gold or otherwise) would be islands.
I feel that it would be imbalanced in terran favor. They would have easier time expanding than any of the other races. It isn't as risky for terran to go quick air like it is for the other races.
Zerg needs to tech to lair, make a nydus entrance and a nydus exit in order to expand once on an island map.
Protoss needs a warp prism to ferry a probe somewhere to build a nexus and then to ferry probes over to mine, or manually saturate it on its own
Terran needs to make a command center, fill it with scv's and fly it where they want, where they can subsequently use those 5 scv's to surround the base with turrets due to no building restrictions like pylons or creep.
Not to mention that once terran gets 3 orbital commands, they can fill a new base with mules.
Way too much balance complaining in this. Unit balance isn't the problem with this, I think the only problem comes in with floating CCs. Other than that it'd be awesome to see.
I think island maps would really be Terran favored. They seem to have the best set of air units (with perhaps the exception of the Mutalisk) and perhaps more importantly, Medivacs seem to be much more effective for dropping and overall mobility than Overlords or Warp Prisms.
Regardless of balance, island maps would force players to use strategies that are entirely different from the "standard" metagame, and I don't think that's really beneficial to a competitive game at all.
Differences between maps should be important, but subtle. Not completely game changing (and potentially game breaking). You shouldn't have to re-learn the game and figure out a set of entirely different strategies and timings just to play on a few radically different, non-standard maps.
I absolutely hated them in BW WCGs and would be happy if they never made an appearance in SC2.
On August 28 2011 14:32 Chairman Ray wrote: What about island maps that are separated by cliff rather than sea? Protoss can warp units through and walk colossi over, and terran can jump reapers over. This way early game is a bit more dynamic.
You bone Zerg, and this is the retarded part. If it's a straight water island map they tend to be bland, the decent island maps on BW were basically gorky's island where your base was just a high ground island, and the low ground could be fought over for the rest of the game.
This could NEVER work in SC2, it would be even more imbalanced against zerg, since they would have to go eco/macro builds, and any colossi/blink builds would RAPE them, even a 4gate blink with hallucination would rape so hard and punish the shit out of any greedy play. It would basically be like the map isn't an island for Protoss, Terran mass CC lifting is retarded, whose going to go triple CC and load away 10 workers to be idle for the minute it takes to actually get to another base? That's retarded.
Reaper openings would rape on no-water island maps, so would un-scoutable banshee openings, both which would be annoying to deal with as Zerg.
holy hell terran favored? really? haha. gl leaving your island with phoenixes or 1 base mutas... island maps are fun though. tbh i havent played too many times but its most certaintly not terran imba.
On August 29 2011 01:24 WniO wrote: holy hell terran favored? really? haha. gl leaving your island with phoenixes or 1 base mutas... island maps are fun though. tbh i havent played too many times but its most certaintly not terran imba.
Not that hard to get pheonix or spore crawlers... You're a good mapmaker, at least try making an island map.
On August 28 2011 14:33 Whitewing wrote: Terran would be so ridiculously strong on an island map as is. Their dropships heal, they're the only race that gets access to a legitimate flying spellcaster (mothership doesn't count), vikings have so much range and are the best anti-air air unit in general. They also just plain have the most air units in general.
Well at least you aren't going on about lifting CCs...
However I'm not sure your arguments are really that compelling. I don't really see how Medivacs being able to heal would be all that much more significant on island maps than it is on regular maps, and because your opponent would be anticipating drops, they might actually be less effective. The Raven isn't really a good harass unit and is easily killed if it has no supporting units, and there wouldn't be any supporting units if they're stuck on the home island.
Part of the reason that makes Terran air strong is that it can pull back to the safety of a Marine ball if it is threatened, if that isn't available then Vikings, Banshees, Ravens, Medivacs and even Battlecruisers are all very vulnerable to enemy air, because they can't retreat. If you bring your Vikings close to the enemy and it turns out he has 2 more Phoenix than you, you will lose everything.
Seeker missiles can take the role of the marine ball, keeping enemies away from your vikings. Once you get BCs, nothing protoss has in the air can deal with a viking/BC/raven ball. Vikings outrange void rays and snipe them down pretty quick (plus yamato one shots them), seeker missile prevents them from even getting close enough to use phoenix and can be used to prevent void rays from charging, and carriers get taken down pretty quick by the combo. Plus, terran is the only race that gets a cloaked air unit for their harass.
Zerg is in even more trouble, mutas are strong against terran air but if he turtles until he's got ravens and seeker missile with missile turrets and building armor, your mutas won't help anymore, since you have to get so close to attack the air ball and frankly, mutas are bad in a straight up fight unless it's pure viking (PDD works on them too). Vikings beat corrupters with micro due to range advantage, and if used properly, seeker missile lets you control energy range movement.
Note that I'm only harping about the seeker missile because it's an island map and you won't have a big ball of ground units underneath for the space control threat of: "Get close and take stupid amounts of damage." Seeker missile can fill that role though =p. Protoss and Zerg don't have an equivalent.
Terran has the best Air, and the most air units. Other races balance it out in combination with their other units to make things work, but an island map makes ground units less powerful due to a huge lack of mobility.
The other major issue is how easy it is to prevent drops as a terran: usage of planetary fortresses and missile turrets can make each island impenetrable to harass.
Every issue here is addressed by the basic mechanics of SC2...
1) Destructible rocks prevent any early lift-off abuse. 2) CC first has been proven to be inferior to fast OC - so terrans would 1-rax expand...just like they do on current maps. 3) Terrain that can be exploitable by Blink and Nydus play as well as lift-off and reapers. 4) As strong as vikings are, they lose to mutas and voids in equal resources.
Island maps would be an interesting change to play on, it might even be fun. But I wouldn't want them in my ladder pool. There's too many unexplored areas with them.
To throw some viewpoints as a Terran player and how I view it. Looking pass the early-game shenanigans with CC lift off and such, and into the mid-late game battles.
I see a lot of people saying that Terran would be imbalanced due to mass Turret drop. But wait..couldn't the other races do that? Both Zerg and Protoss have long range bombardment units. Terran does not. Broodlords make a joke out of Turrets and their superior range can be abusive on Island maps, keeping them effectively out of range of any ground. Similarly Protoss has their Carriers which can serve the same purpose, granted their interceptors can be shot down. For Terrans to deal with mass AA emplacement, they'd need PDD and Yamato. PDD's have limited range, and depending on how big the islands are, this is a big factor. BC's are a unit that are not meant to be massed due to their cost, slow speed and ineffectiveness without proper Viking support. In a normal match as is, Banshees take forever to take down 1 Spore Crawler, they'd need to have a significant number before that is possible without taking any loss. Proper sim-city and staggered Spore/Cannon placement would destroy Banshees.
Battlecruisers aren't all that great as people make them out to be. There's a reason you don't see them often versus Protoss or Zerg. Blink-Stalkers and Void Rays destroy them, Carriers do a decent job as well. Zergs Corruptors just destroys BC's like they're nothing. The only time I ever feel comfortable using them is versus Terran. And only when I know I can control the sky with Viking-Ravens to cover my BC's. Basically when I won the Air-War to begin with.
Banshees while being powerful Harassment-Cloaked Units, have a extremely long build speed. It takes 60s, that's the same time it takes to build a Raven or a Thor. The build speed alone prevents them from being massed. As pointed above, they are just paper-planes when any sort of AA structure is up. With proper detection, HT's can One-Shot them down.
The last Terran Air-Unit, the only one in their arsenal that can be truly massed - Vikings. Mutas do a great job against them, in equal resource situation. Phoenix aren't talked about much against Vikings, but if I recall correctly, they can almost 1 on 1 a Viking by themselves. Voids are great units and before the Speed Upgrade removal, they could destroy Vikings as they could not kite them. Nowadays they require some Phoenix to help them.
Every other race other than Terran has an option to pair up their superiority fighters with another Air unit that is more accessible to help in their battles. Mutas can be paired with Corruptors to make a deadly Anti-Air combo. Similarly Phoenix and Void Rays compliment each other and address each other's weaknesses. Terrans have Vikings alone, while strong offensively, they share the traits of other Terran units. They're glass cannons. 125 HP. There is no meat-shield unit in this situation for them, other than PDD's and those have limited range. The beauty of an air-battle is that they can reposition quite easily.
I wanted to add in about Ravens, PDDs are great in Air battles and will be needed for Terrans so that they do not get their flimsy Vikings destroyed. Seeker Missiles might actually have a role in these maps as they'd be finally able to cast their ability without getting sniped as often. You have to keep in mind that Seeker Missiles only have 6 Range. Phoenix and Mutas can easily fly away from them with their speed.
However the other two races have their own spell casters as well that can support them. HT's can just wreck a fleet of Banshees with Feedback, and storms are able to assist as well. Both abilities are at 9 Range. Likewise, Feedback can do up to an instant 200 damage on BC's. Infestors are able to Neural Parasite as there is no Terran air-unit that has a attack-range that is comparable to it's ability. BC's Yamato is at a range of 10, slightly over so that may be used to help combat this. However let's not forget the other Infestor abilities, Fungal which has been proven to effectively deal with Vikings already in normal combat situations. They'd be able to chain fungal down a Terran fleet before it has a chance to attack. Without Viking support, BC's are horrible units on their own.
This is all theory crafting of course, and only hypothetically on the Air-Battle. This is not counting Ground combat units since that puts in a whole new set of variables. But I wanted to share my viewpoints on Terran. I wanted to point out that there's a reason why Sky Terran is almost exclusively used in TvT only, and it is still rare in that match up.
One thing you could have for island expansions is eight 1-mineral patches. I don't think you can load SCVs into a Command Center while floating, so you would have to float 5 SCVs and then drop 3 MULEs to get the expansion, that's quite a hefty investment. Rocks are another alternative, although that causes problems for Zerg.
People seem to have images in their head of Lost Temple or Scrap Station-esque ridiculously small island where one turret in the middle covers the whole area. You could easily make islands have "beaches", areas on the edges of the island that are unbuildable and would allow for drops to land safely.
One thing I also thought about was neutral hostile Turrets and Planetaries blocking regions of the map, ensuring that you need a sizable force before claiming the area. You could have block paths with neutral Spine Crawlers - the off-creep mechanic would make them die over time, but they would block early game movement.
Destructible bridges is the most interesting option to me, since it creates a perfectly normal early game that transforms into island play as soon as one player decides to destroy the bridge(s).
On August 28 2011 17:34 DarKcS wrote: OP, how long have you been playing Starcraft? Did you not see the crappy island liftoff time wasters in beta/post-release lost temple?
I've been playing StarCraft 2 since about half-way through beta and Brood War for years before that (albeit I blow at BW! ). I never really had trouble with stuff like that, and as I say you can design the map to not have such easily defended positions.
I feel that Protoss doesn't have as many air options as terran or zerg.
Terran has the ability to lift off, and medivacs are really useful even without islands.
Zerg has nydus, and their overlords will be actually useful instead of just being scouters and sacrifices.
All Protoss really have is mothership with it's recall ability which barely counts suggesting how slow it is, and warp prism. Warp prism is really strong with its warpgate play, but they are so much more vulnerable compared to medivac and overlord, because it has to stay still to have warpgates summoned
Of course they will be imbalanced. There are so many variables in Starcraft and they aren't balanced according to island maps. Island maps being balanced by chance is extremely unlikely.
This is actually really interesting and something I'd love to see experimented with...
...except protoss would fare so poorly that they'd almost have to mass void ray every time. Their two most potent and common units, sentries and colossus, would have little place in either defending or attacking, I'm not sure what they'd use, but ultimately protoss air is not often considered the strongest and I feel like we'd end up seeing a giant wall of void rays, like you often do in team games.
Though I laugh at people that say TERRAN JUST DOUBLE CC FIRST LOAD UP SCVS NO PROBLEM. If the main "island" you start on has two bases, both Protoss and Zerg would have fine opportunity to expand first and use their macro mechanics to secure crazyfast economies, while still having plenty of time to tech out to either secure a third or attack off two bases. Though terran could CC first, then rax (4 TEH OBRITALZ), then CC again, I feel like this would be getting into a timing where a protoss or zerg attack could be coming on to their island pretty quick, making that third CC really risky to take.
Yeah. It'd be really interesting to see. In fact, it makes me wonder if someone could convince a pair of CoL dudes to play a best-of-five in-house on one or several of the "practice" maps that starts with rocks everywhere preventing rushes, and make a rule that you're not actually allowed to knock down those rocks ever. It'd simulate an island map without having anyone actually make an island map. It would be cool to see the build orders that progress, and how players choose to play knowing that no zerglings/marines/stalkers are going to smash into their base until they have a way to get there.
It kinda depends on the island map as well. I would assume that it would be long enough that seige tanks can hit so the rush distance will be rather far. It will have to be 1v1 map otherwise it to hard to scout. I would say the distance between close air position on shatter or metal would be a good distance between the island. This should allow zerg to scout for any early CC or 2 port banshee or w/e with their overlords.
From here it could be anything but I think a logical island map would follow these description.
They should definitely be tried for a season of GSL or something. Just once to see how it works.
Also, Protoss would probably resort to something like colossus or sentry drops. Those units wouldn't be useless. Even if they were just used for defense on your own island, you'd still need to have them.
I'm pretty sure marines would catapult terran way ahead. They are pretty good against all air units except like broodlords, can be dropped early, and are dirt cheap.
On August 29 2011 02:58 lindn wrote: "-Queens are pretty much the best early game anti-air"
so marines aren't better?
They are certainly worse anti-air than queens! But you can definitely make a lot more marines than queens can be produced. Queens are the most efficient anti-air in the game, I think.
Seriously, if you haven't even played an island map 1v1 at least ONCE in Starcraft 2, you are in absolutely no position to comment on balance on such a map. That is essentially worse than a bronze player with 2 1v1s under his belt to say 'vikings are OP, they can LAND AND THEN ATTACK GROUND AS WELL?? wtf this game is shit'.
People using Scrap Station and Lost Temple as the basis of their knowledge? Lol, if you can worker rush your opponent then it isn't an island map.
seriously, all this theorycrafting can be settled with some actual games being played. i'm of the opinion that island maps should have been given at least a chance instead of just immediately be regarded as "imbalanced" from the get-go
On August 29 2011 03:29 blabber wrote: seriously, all this theorycrafting can be settled with some actual games being played. i'm of the opinion that island maps should have been given at least a chance instead of just immediately be regarded as "imbalanced" from the get-go
I agree. Anyone know the name of a decent island map? And anyone up to try playing them? EU master zerg here, PM me.
On August 29 2011 03:29 blabber wrote: seriously, all this theorycrafting can be settled with some actual games being played. i'm of the opinion that island maps should have been given at least a chance instead of just immediately be regarded as "imbalanced" from the get-go
I agree. Anyone know the name of a decent island map? And anyone up to try playing them? EU master zerg here, PM me.
I know some of the Blizzard maps are island maps. But you wanted "decent." "Blizzard map" and "decent" don't belong in the same sentence.
I know that mass turrets + mass viking + PF on Lost Temple on the two island expansions was really difficult with protoss. Pretty much impossible to be cost effective, I mean I just took many bases and broke him eventually. But it was a pain and no fun to play.
lol, you say zerg has the best early game........... so a a 50 mineral marine, that 3 cost the same as a queen and it comes out super quick, lol, how can you say things like this, I will never understand peoples mentalities like this, how can they disregard so much when discussing fairness and balance people leave out so much when discussing balance.
sorry for the rant just can't believe he honestly believes zerg has the best early game anti-air, even toss is way better, stalkers are sick, and rape banshees early game
I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
On August 28 2011 14:17 jinorazi wrote: it worked on bw. (at least half-island maps)
sc2 needs to have some of em too
It did not work in BW. There's a reason all island maps were completely phased out.
Pure islands maps put a specific and unavoidable necessity on air play, and there's always a race that is better with pure air play as the game wasn't designed to just not need ground units for the first five minutes.
This thread has so stupid its unbelievable. Why don't you make a simple map and play some games and stop theorycrafting. Like the idiots who keep popping up to say HUR TERRAN CAN FLOAT A CC as if that hasn't got a solution. Is it to much to ask for people to read the thread, and NOT respond if you don't have any input. Yes it is probably imbalanced i think we can all guess that. But it's probably still possible to be playable at lower levels for fun. It's imbalanced in BW yet in the Island map tournament on here recently P didn't even win it.
People need to keep in mind with the mapmaking a big big important thing in this that could help balance one way or the other is the size and count of min patches/gas at mains and expos. Who knows, maybe with the right numbers it would help things out in one direction or the other.
Guys you can't use the 1 mineral field to stop fast lift expos like people are suggesting, terran could land the CC elsewhere on the island, return those and remine. A 2nd base on the main island would be essential. Check my post earlier, I think it could be worth trying out with things mapmakers have learnt from a year of sc2 and 13 years of sc1, just promote ground unit usage by large many-base islands that are 'shared', with seperate main islands. Use unbuildable visibilty hiding things to enable areas that require units to defend, have siege units able to hit 1 corner of the main island (but not to hit anything important) so you can kill turrets late game and then drop or use air units possible even if someone spams turrets around their main. Issue is colossus range isn't that high, but how many people will just mass defense on their main base at high level, especially if the initial island is quite large (even with only 2 bases)
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
I would actually disagree with you. A small number of void rays would be inefficient at dealing with the corrupters, as mutas can easily obliterate them, and corrupters can focus on the pheonixes. However, a smaller number of pheonixes with heavy void rays and a mothership would be excellent. I would say in terms of air units: Protoss = Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss.
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
I would actually disagree with you. A small number of void rays would be inefficient at dealing with the corrupters, as mutas can easily obliterate them, and corrupters can focus on the pheonixes. However, a smaller number of pheonixes with heavy void rays and a mothership would be excellent. I would say in terms of air units: Protoss = Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss.
and phoenix can focus mutas, void rays can focus corruptors. derp.
I think they would be fun to play on, but I don't think they would be very good to have in the competitive scene.
So honestly, I don't see a problem with maybe one island map on the ladder. I mean if you don't like it and think it's imbalanced, down vote it, that's what they're there for. Personally though, if they did do that I would want the starting islands at least to have a main and natural base at the very minimum. It'd be fun and different, so I'd like to give it a try lol.
On August 29 2011 04:19 Slago wrote: lol, you say zerg has the best early game........... so a a 50 mineral marine, that 3 cost the same as a queen and it comes out super quick, lol, how can you say things like this, I will never understand peoples mentalities like this, how can they disregard so much when discussing fairness and balance people leave out so much when discussing balance.
sorry for the rant just can't believe he honestly believes zerg has the best early game anti-air, even toss is way better, stalkers are sick, and rape banshees early game
Stalker better anti air than Queens? Is that a joke? A Queen has more range, does more damage, has more health, costs less, can heal each other if there are more than one, and on top of all that the Queen is also the macro mechanic of the Zerg and you want to get it anyway. Not to mention, Queens are produced directly from the Hatchery, which would often be idle otherwise (with one researching Lair, the other can only make Queens). Stalkers do not rape Banshees, they die to them. Queens on the other hand, do rape Banshees.
Marines are obviously strong anti air but they require upgrades to be truly effective, they don't have enough speed without stim to deal with air harass effectively, Queens do.
oh and remeber :3 we can actually change the waterlevel on maps, so in order to balance it out every race could be allowed to expand first, though the lava will rise and divide the bases into two island heh.
or have some sort of storm disallowing buildings to fly off the main island for some time
I think another keypoint with zerg from bw to sc2 is that now you dont need 2 lairs to upgrade drop and speed on lords. You only need 1 lair and 1 hatch. Medivac and Im pretty sure warp prism still come faster but its much much closer than that of BW.
Also, Hydras are much stronger AA in sc2 than BW. and Mutas are as strong as they ever were with the addition of IUS in sc2. Mutas are used as the main weaponry even on regular land maps so I believe they could possibly be even stronger on island maps if the enemies choose to forgo typical defenses like canons, stalkers, marines, bunkers, etc.
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
I would actually disagree with you. A small number of void rays would be inefficient at dealing with the corrupters, as mutas can easily obliterate them, and corrupters can focus on the pheonixes. However, a smaller number of pheonixes with heavy void rays and a mothership would be excellent. I would say in terms of air units: Protoss = Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss.
Dude, get real. If a protoss open air, there is no way in hell zerg can fight for air dominance.
Protoss usually get phoenixes before spire is even started.
Protoss can easily get 1 or 2 upgrades advantages.
Phoenixes hard counter muta.
Corruptors don't counter phoenixes. If the corruptors count is too low, phoenix will kill them, if the corruptors count is good enough, phoenix will just fly away... With 2 ugprade advantage, phoenix are OK against corrutpors.
2 starting islands with a main and natural. 2 isolated islands with gold mins and destructible rocks that are hard to defend. middle island with watch tower in the middle and 4-6 bases, all with rocks. rocks prevent early terran cc plays. cute unbuildable terrain on the gold bases could prevent complete turret rings. it could still be pretty imbalanced, but its hard to say for who. warp prism and warpgates themselves would be incredibly strong. planetarys, medivacs, banshees, and floating buildings are terran advantages. ovies and mutas would be zergs advantages and nydus would be incredibly powerful. would be fun to see how it played out at the very least.
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
I would actually disagree with you. A small number of void rays would be inefficient at dealing with the corrupters, as mutas can easily obliterate them, and corrupters can focus on the pheonixes. However, a smaller number of pheonixes with heavy void rays and a mothership would be excellent. I would say in terms of air units: Protoss = Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss.
Dude, get real. If a protoss open air, there is no way in hell zerg can fight for air dominance.
Protoss usually get phoenixes before spire is even started.
Protoss can easily get 1 or 2 upgrades advantages.
Phoenixes hard counter muta.
Corruptors don't counter phoenixes. If the corruptors count is too low, phoenix will kill them, if the corruptors count is good enough, phoenix will just fly away... With 2 ugprade advantage, phoenix are OK against corrutpors.
Muta only soft counter void rays.
Vois rays hard counter corruptors.
again you are using the word hard counter incorrectly and zerg has infestors which can instantly destroy a protoss air force. and air isnt going to be as strong as you guys think unless its a map full of entirely 1 base islands, which would be retarded.
can someone just please make a fast island map so we can test balance on it? :p a few games on such a map would be better then hours of theory crafting.
If we were talking about trying it out in a Proleague only format where it could end up only for mirror matches then yeah totally. Otherwise it would be a horrible mess. I mean I love Paradoxxx a lot more than most people for no logical reason but given how SC2 players react to incredibly minor issues I don't think having this in a map pool would lead to anything good.
On August 29 2011 08:11 Dreadwolf wrote: How would protoss win any game, fungal anything you see coming or emp it + vikking it.
Hallucinations would be usefull when attacking to sap their energy. Fungal isn´t a problem when defending, since Infestors can´t fly. If they drop in, then there´s always Feedback. With the high gascost of Infestors, the Zergs fleet will be much smaller, which help you in every battle that the infestors can´t fight in.
There is no point in trying island maps. Terran's mechanics would allow for too much flexibility in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities. For example, a protoss player may be able to warp prism 4 gate, but the terran can easily pick up and move to another island while protoss' own main gets decimated. There after, the terran can easily defend and switch to mass banshee viking to finish the job because the protoss units are virtually useless after their first engagement because they can't move from that island without that fragile warp prism. And considering terran's anti air vs protoss more than balanced..you get the picture.
The same story could be told about mutalisks in ZvT where zergs just shut down expo after expo with the terran, unable to use marines to defend that many places at once, losing the econ battle.
On August 29 2011 04:19 Phayze wrote: I just cannot see how protoss can deal with mass muta. Phoenix play is hardcountered by mutas and a dash of corruptors. Terran would be really good with drops, and nydus'd expansions would be obnoxious.
Pheonixs actually hard counter Mutalisks, and sprinkling void rays would deal with the corruptors.
For air units: Protoss > Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss
I would actually disagree with you. A small number of void rays would be inefficient at dealing with the corrupters, as mutas can easily obliterate them, and corrupters can focus on the pheonixes. However, a smaller number of pheonixes with heavy void rays and a mothership would be excellent. I would say in terms of air units: Protoss = Zerg Zerg > Terran Terran > Protoss.
Dude, get real. If a protoss open air, there is no way in hell zerg can fight for air dominance.
Protoss usually get phoenixes before spire is even started.
Protoss can easily get 1 or 2 upgrades advantages.
Phoenixes hard counter muta.
Corruptors don't counter phoenixes. If the corruptors count is too low, phoenix will kill them, if the corruptors count is good enough, phoenix will just fly away... With 2 ugprade advantage, phoenix are OK against corrutpors.
Muta only soft counter void rays.
Vois rays hard counter corruptors.
again you are using the word hard counter incorrectly and zerg has infestors which can instantly destroy a protoss air force. and air isnt going to be as strong as you guys think unless its a map full of entirely 1 base islands, which would be retarded.
Don't you think it's rude to tell someone he is not using a word correctly, especially without giving the definition of said word.
It's just like if someone were to explain to you that "hard counter" is actually 2 words.
Anyway, when I say phoenixes hard counter mutalsiks, I mean phoenixes completely obliterate mutalisks and I'm sure most people would understand it.
Infestors are good against most protoss air units, but the bottomline is that infestors are a slow ground unit. If you spend gas on infestors, you are basically surrendering air supremacy, and getting from one island to the other will be quite difficult.
I still don't see a single unit composition that can pentrate turret viking. In fact, Cannon/spore/turret will result in huge turtling games with races trying to get t3 air and making massive air fleets. Then they have 1 major air battle and the game is over. Ground army is useless imo. Air units are much better anyway.
PvT Terran wins, vikings defeat the entire Protoss air fleet and Protoss has insufficient ability vs the banshee. Viking banshee Raven would be so difficult to defeat and Terran does not have to worry about any timing rush since a single viking early in the game will deter all warp prism harass. Terran can tech and expand and win. Protoss still has to worry about cloaked banshee openers and 2 port. They cannot skimp on units at all.
PvZ Protoss wins I think. Once voidrays are massed in sufficient numbers, they take hatcheries down too quickly for infestors to get there in time. Voidray phoenix is very very potent. If Zerg manages to fungal the air units, zerg wins. Otherwise, I don't see how zerg can deal with 20 voidrays and 20 phoenixes.
TvZ Terran wins. Nothing Zerg has can defeat Viking Turret. Terran has so many ridiculous advantages.
On August 29 2011 09:41 Micket wrote: I still don't see a single unit composition that can pentrate turret viking. In fact, Cannon/spore/turret will result in huge turtling games with races trying to get t3 air and making massive air fleets. Then they have 1 major air battle and the game is over. Ground army is useless imo. Air units are much better anyway.
PvT Terran wins, vikings defeat the entire Protoss air fleet and Protoss has insufficient ability vs the banshee. Viking banshee Raven would be so difficult to defeat and Terran does not have to worry about any timing rush since a single viking early in the game will deter all warp prism harass. Terran can tech and expand and win. Protoss still has to worry about cloaked banshee openers and 2 port. They cannot skimp on units at all.
PvZ Protoss wins I think. Once voidrays are massed in sufficient numbers, they take hatcheries down too quickly for infestors to get there in time. Voidray phoenix is very very potent. If Zerg manages to fungal the air units, zerg wins. Otherwise, I don't see how zerg can deal with 20 voidrays and 20 phoenixes.
TvZ Terran wins. Nothing Zerg has can defeat Viking Turret. Terran has so many ridiculous advantages.
Wait what? Phoenixs own vikings in PvT and not mention how strong a vortex would be on a huge clumped ball of air units. Along with a couple carriers to use interceptors to soak up shots and VRs when they get fully charged.
Sorry No TvZ zerg has a huge advantage infestors rape air units and mutas rape vikings. Nydus onto islands would be incredibly strong and to deal with turrets you just fly around and pick off any expansions before they get 30 turrets up. And thors would be shit needing be ferried around in medivacs.
"Terran has so many ridiculous advantages" I loled
It's pretty obvious you dont know wtf your talking about...
vikings + raven can actually do quite well against muta, not to mention you can add battelcruisers to the mix. Terran can win the air fight, even if they will never have the speed to catch muta.
And even without getting air suppremacy, PDD should allow to safely brings trooops to the other island.
Yamato gun & auto turret should be able to deal with infestors.
But I think Zerg would still be favored because of nydius networks.
Medivacs have so much utility already, so they'll always be made. Overlords will always be made, and drop/speed are affordable upgrades, and nydus would gain utility on an island map. My guess is that protoss would be at a dissadvantage.
On August 29 2011 05:48 Elean wrote: Dude, get real. If a protoss open air, there is no way in hell zerg can fight for air dominance.
Protoss usually get phoenixes before spire is even started.
Protoss can easily get 1 or 2 upgrades advantages.
Phoenixes hard counter muta.
Corruptors don't counter phoenixes. If the corruptors count is too low, phoenix will kill them, if the corruptors count is good enough, phoenix will just fly away... With 2 ugprade advantage, phoenix are OK against corrutpors.
Muta only soft counter void rays.
Vois rays hard counter corruptors.
Dude, get real. If a zerg open air, there is no way in hell protoss can fight for air dominance.
Zerg usually get Mutalisks before Stargate is even started.
Phoenixes hard counter muta. Till 20 Mutalisks.
Voidrays don't counter Corrupters. If the Voidrays count is too low, Corrupters will kill them, if the Voidrays count is good enough, Corrupters will just fly away... When fully charged against an A-move enemy, Voidrays are OK against Corrupters .
The only problem that I would see with island maps is that zerg players would be at a huge disadvantage because of expansion issues. Zerg players wouldn't be able to expand until they have drop which is an investment of a lair and drop and assuming that they don't want slow overlords to transport their drones from one island to the next they would also need speed.
How can anyone say Terran would be imba?!??! Toss has the strongest most accessible airforce in the game, and can get away with super fast tech with no issue, whilst punishing any terran that tries to expand quickly, zerg would be able to muta rush terran without any risk of dieing to marine tank pushes and easily punish any eco play from T.
Mass phoenix so they can't drop you and you dominate everything in the sky (throw in some voids for the odd corrupter. Then all you need to do is calmly mass carriers + a mother-ship.
On August 29 2011 13:04 Tektos wrote: Protoss IMBA.
Mass phoenix so they can't drop you and you dominate everything in the sky (throw in some voids for the odd corrupter. Then all you need to do is calmly mass carriers + a mother-ship.
Whats interesting about your claim is that you think everyone will go air. Im pretty positive toss would have to worry about roach drop rushes, which would be hard to defend even with overlords. Also, carriers vs zerg isnt that good. Voids are much better.
What really makes toss overpowered is that they could get storm and turtle until they have a massive army.
Not sure about full Island maps, but a step in that direction with a map port like Neo Forbidden Zone would be worth a shot, I think. There should be some pro tourney that takes a chance on a map like that.
On August 29 2011 13:25 Excalibur_Z wrote: Not sure about full Island maps, but a step in that direction with a map port like Neo Forbidden Zone would be worth a shot, I think. There should be some pro tourney that takes a chance on a map like that.
I think you underestimate the blowback from the pros if someone did this. EU and NA pros already bitch moan and cry about every time a map changes. A major thing like this would cause some serious problems.
KR players might be open to it, but I seriously doubt that. From my experience they are the most willing to try new things. Good luck getting the GSL on board with that however.
On August 29 2011 13:04 Tektos wrote: Protoss IMBA.
Mass phoenix so they can't drop you and you dominate everything in the sky (throw in some voids for the odd corrupter. Then all you need to do is calmly mass carriers + a mother-ship.
Whats interesting about your claim is that you think everyone will go air. Im pretty positive toss would have to worry about roach drop rushes, which would be hard to defend even with overlords. Also, carriers vs zerg isnt that good. Voids are much better.
What really makes toss overpowered is that they could get storm and turtle until they have a massive army.
Thats what the phoenix are for... if they go roach you kill every overlord that moves away from their island. Because they are on an island you're doing an aerial contain. I did not once assume everyone would go air, it is just that by protoss going air that is the best way to keep their ground army contained to their island.
What units don't carriers do well against? Corruptors are probably the best, thats why you mix in a few voids.
Mass void/carrier beats mass corruptor, I'm pretty sure.
Problem is balancing a game around ground maps and island maps is a completely different thing. It would also cause pros to have to specifically prepare builds for the map while they do this already it would be much more difficult to react and transition on a map that would be so unique. I dont think it is a good idea to incorporate island maps into SC2 as ladder or pros maps. For customs its fine.
I actually think Terran might be UP, because without the threat of early timing pushes Zerg can get all the economy he wants and Protoss can get all the tech he wants.
Protoss could easily dominate the air in both matchups IMO. That makes up for the lack of mass drop. They could easily deny drops once a fleet of phoenix patrol the borders, and in the late game with carrier, mothership, collossi they'd be pretty hard to stop. If Stalkers could blink across that would be pretty powerful as well.
Have you guys not remember Scrap Station where there is the island expo? Terran usually gets that as 2nd or 3rd and it's pretty hard to kill it due to a lot of turrets and being a planetary fortress.
I'm pretty sure this is terran dominated, There really isn't much anyone can do against mass reactored vikings. especially with terran being able to basically go cc first in any matchup and just fast expo. zerg needs lair and toss needs robo before they can expo.
Nice, try and make something that might be 5 islands, or just 3. Starting base is an island with an low eco expansion. Then the Second island between the starting positions could be an bigger island.
Or a map that heavly favours air units, but with an alternative way for slow ground units. With an gold base somewhere.
I see PvT on an island map to be pretty much unwinnable. A terran is going to go for a fast starport, and start building up a viking fleet with some marines and medivacs. Early on, if the protoss goes for phoenix then the terran can just deny airspace with vikings and defend with missle turrets if the protoss goes to harass instead of engage. If the protoss goes for void rays, the vikings can just kite and win that battle, and if the voids sneak past the vikings then a few marines and a turret or two will still win that battle.
Later on, some combination of phoenix/voidray might be able to beat vikings by negating the vikings ability to kite voids by damaging them with phoenix. Might. I don't know if that would actually work or not, but all the terran has to do is mix in a few ravens with HSM. HSM the voids, and kill the phoenix instead of letting them take pot shots will they kite voids. Although a viking fleet doesn't do much against the protoss ground units the terran can slowly whittle the protoss down while completely denying expansions.
The warp prism allows for easy reinforcing, but I don't see that really mattering when Terran air can dominate protoss air with a little bit of micro, and has an easier time taking a third (given a hypothetical second base on the starting island).
I would like to see an island map taken seriously by some pro players, and rely on that instead of theory crafting, but I think that if two players of equal skill - one terran one protoss - played 100 serious games on an island map (even with a two base starting island) the terran would win upwards of 90 of them.
Terran would be hugely favoured due to floating buildings. Terran could CC first and Zerg would have to 1 base muta or 1 base ventral sac to expand. I don't have enough experience with TvP air battles so I dunno who would win that.
This thread is amazing. I never realised before how many people posted without even reading the first line (which in this case happens to be coloured and in bold, too).
I'm sure someone has stated earlier, but I do wish they can spice things up a bit. Get some quirkiness to it. For example, something like Monty Hall or Troy.
Also, I don't think expansion is the key to island maps myself. Perhaps this is more coming from a BW angle. But I think terran is OP in this scenario because it has the fastest tech. Various forms of 1/1/1 IMO would work amazingly well with islands.
On August 29 2011 09:13 Tossup wrote: There is no point in trying island maps. Terran's mechanics would allow for too much flexibility in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities. For example, a protoss player may be able to warp prism 4 gate, but the terran can easily pick up and move to another island while protoss' own main gets decimated. There after, the terran can easily defend and switch to mass banshee viking to finish the job because the protoss units are virtually useless after their first engagement because they can't move from that island without that fragile warp prism. And considering terran's anti air vs protoss more than balanced..you get the picture.
The same story could be told about mutalisks in ZvT where zergs just shut down expo after expo with the terran, unable to use marines to defend that many places at once, losing the econ battle.
Protoss can have multiple warp prisms, just like Terran has multiple medivacs and Zerg has multiple overlords.
Also, Protoss has the advantage when it comes to moving from an island to defend their main. The Mothership mass recall ability is the fastest in the game.
As for ZvT, Terran has drop play, and turrets are the strongest non-unit anti-air in the game.
Instead of theorycrafting and saying there is "no point in trying island maps," stop being so negative and give them a chance.
Viking/raven would beat everything. Zerg would have no real response, especially if the terran has vision and prevents nydus. Protoss would have no response either since VR and phoenix both lose to viking and stalkers, while mobile, can be shut down with some small forces of marauders should the terran deem them necessary.
I think it'd be fine for protoss and terran though it seems somewhat difficult for zerg against terran or protoss that are able to contain zerg on their island. It would be funny to see zvz though ^^
Island expansion and Island maps has not really been seen in sc2, except for the old version of lost temple. I think it would be interesting to have some variety in the map pool espcially on the ladder.
Personally I would like to see more island expansion like in python 1.3 and andromeda in bw.
Besides you can't really tell, what would be imba unless you have players actually play such maps. Keep in mind that just because it is "island" map doesn't mean that your main has to be surrounded by water it could be cliffs etc. without ramps. So reaper play and blink stalker, could use/abuse the architecture of the map. And you could also map semi-island maps with the cloaked eggs as some goofy maps in bw had( can't remember the names).
It'd be fun. Kinda imba when you were down to it you'd have to break onto the island. Just make it close enough to shoot at with siege or nuke (not the CC/nexus/hatch though)
I think it'd be worth giving one island map a shot, just to see how it plays and observe wherever major imbalances occur. In general, I'm not a huge fan of maps where I feel like you *have* play a certain style. For example, rush maps are bullshit, even beyond imbalances, because they pigeonhole all players into playing only a couple of styles. I worry that an Island Map could, it ints own way have this effect.
However, I do also believe it might be somewhat imbalanced. Creep as a mechanic overall benefit from wide surface area, and having your hatches separated by air would make defending bases insanely difficult for Zerg, especially if the gap came between your main and your natural.
In general, the ability of Terran to:
Fly their buildings Build planetaries to defend otherwise hard-to-defend expansions Consistently cost-effectively drop with their core army unit
Could very well be imba depending on the specific map layout.
However, its never been tried, so they might as well give it a shot with one map and see how it plays out.
We'd see the carrier and nydus a lot more. I think it would be a great idea, and it would force blizzard to balance things more evenly. It would add another variable for them which would make it a pain but I think it would pay off. Broodwar had island maps, and they turned out alright.
Now that I think about it, it would really speed up the development of the game I think. You would be forcing zergs to experiment with early nydus/drops which at first would be to expand but later you could get aggressive with it. I think it would point out some units weakness that hide in the dark. Maybe the build time on a nydus for instance? Experimenting with builds is the best way to think up new stuff. And new maps is the #1 way to force that experimenting until the builds for the map get so refined you only have a handful of builds to choose from.
We'd see the carrier and nydus a lot more. I think it would be a great idea, and it would force blizzard to balance things more evenly. It would add another variable for them which would make it a pain but I think it would pay off. Broodwar had island maps, and they turned out alright.
Not really, true island maps pretty much disappeared from the proscene, and even the quasi-island maps that replaced them are pretty damn rare. They just aren't that balanced.
Thats not to say they couldn't give one a shot in SC2, I just don't think it'd work.
In my professional Gold opinion, Terran would have the easiest time securing an economy because of the utility that mules and oc's give them. They also have the quickest/cheapest drop of the 3 races. Protoss would come second and with the up and coming shield increase the warp prism would survive about 2 extra shots from vikings or w/e that may stop them from being used right. Zerg would be able to drone hard but their transport costs the most and takes the longest to get out. Once that happens though, whether it be nydus or speedovie drops they would be able level the playing field. After that its in the air and i personally believe that corruptor/muta is best air combo.
On August 30 2011 08:09 TKatzurimata wrote: In my professional Gold opinion, Terran would have the easiest time securing an economy because of the utility that mules and oc's give them. They also have the quickest/cheapest drop of the 3 races. Protoss would come second and with the up and coming shield increase the warp prism would survive about 2 extra shots from vikings or w/e that may stop them from being used right. Zerg would be able to drone hard but their transport costs the most and takes the longest to get out. Once that happens though, whether it be nydus or speedovie drops they would be able level the playing field. After that its in the air and i personally believe that corruptor/muta is best air combo.
Yep agree, Terran better for early game (fast drop ships), Zerg better for late game (Nidus, Corrupter, BLs, Mutas) and toss.... Hold on here, I'm not sure how well they would actually do... prisms are kinda weak, getting a probe over to build a pylon and warp in units seems too hard to pull off/easy to defend. Maybe a 20 gateway build, send in mass prisms and warp in like CRAZY so you can try and take them down?? Still not sure what options Toss has. What about a mass carrier with phoenix/void support build?? Or is that just waaaay to expensive to do before you die?
They did try them, and that map was called Lost Temple and was changed the map because of it. It would be cool, but I'd rather leave islands to UMS and SP.
I would like to see it experimented with but I really have a feeling that Terran would have a very unfair advantage. Why? Because they would't have to change their build orders for these maps since they always get medivacs anyways. Protoss would be forced to get a bunch of warp prisms (at least more than normal) which fall out of the sky if even a SCV looks at them the wrong way. Zerg would be forced to get nydus networks or overlord capacity.
The way I see it is that it would be shitty for everyone but Terran. Maybe some HOTS updates will make this more viable?
I don't really like the idea of a natural located on the same island as the main. Not so much for balance, but because it would encourage turtling on 2 bases and not dynamic games involving lots of air harrass and drops. Quality map design can Probably iron out most balance issues.
I think they would be nice, but imbalanced, it would require some game balancing what would ruin non island map balances, so I dont see Blizzard doing this.
Personally, I don't think they'd be fun at all to watch/play. Mostly because there isn't a single air unit that doesn't require teching up to (not counting overlords, or course). It's either rush air or turtle up. There's no threat of early game pressure, and games would be extremely limited in both strategy and unit composition variety.
Interesting OP. I would personally love to see more island maps and think that they may very well be viable. They might even be more enjoyable to watch since you would probably get some highly unorthodox and wierd strategies until people figure out just exactly what works and what doesn't.
One of the things which I wonder about is who would have the hardest time loosing air superiority. All early game aside, say that your opponent has full air superiority and any air units you fly outside your own base gets picked off almost immediatly. How would the different races fare then? In the OP poll there is a huge bias towards terrans being the stronger race, but they are the one race that doesn't have any means of getting units across "islands" without dropships (zerg has nydus and protoss has blink & warpin). Well I guess terrans could get across cliffislands with reapers, but I really don't see them winning a game with just reapers. Terrans would then be confined within their own base until they had huge enough viking army to regain air superiority. Basically they have to since they have no other way of winning.