On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
For me as a viewer this korean dominance is a problem because i get less interested when players like Ganzi or Noblesse take part. I'm interested in the Top 15 koreans or so but not in the rest. Especially korean terrans bore me to death. Of course it's no solution to not let koreans participate, because in the end it's the foreigners duty to not get stomped and win stuff.
On August 30 2011 02:49 Dc_Starcraft wrote: Honestly if idra can get out of the slump that he is he could place top 3 but he just makes stupid choices in game which cost him the game. Also I feel that HuK and Nani could be up there too esp with HuK being in GSL. Everyone just needs to play as hard as they do to get ready for the next MLG.
Yea I saw two games of Idra where he overmade mutas and undermade banelings and lost twice the same way.
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is only going to widen. They practice more and as long as they are improving faster, foreigners will never catch up.
I beg to differ. This current generation of pros is probably screwed. However, they are building infrastructure for talented new players to be able to practice like Koreans. The eg houses, the reign house, The house tlo shares with other pros have all cropped up in the past year or so. The international SC2 scene has more potential because it can support more players. The lack of major Korean tournaments will drive more mid level Koreans to foreign teams I think, Allowing weaker players in the non-Korean scene to learn from them. Also, the win rate in pool play at least is lowered a lot by players like incontrol and machine who really shouldn't be there.
If you remove players that are regarded as undeserving in pool play (Players that have regularly underperformed in MLG pool play, I removed moonan, TLO, Haypro, incontrol and machine) You get a result of 35-14, which, while bad is still a lot closer
On August 30 2011 02:21 absalom86 wrote: I think Tester was solely responsible for lowering the win percentage for Koreans quite a lot this last MLG.
I agree completely. It would've been just as bad as Anaheim if any of the strongest Koreans had attended (Nestea, MVP, etc).
One thing that I find some comfort in is this: before Raleigh, I honestly thought that no one from code S could possibly do bad in a foreign tournament. Now I see that the weaker code S players don't destroy foreigners completely. That said, Ganzi didn't lose to foreigners in Anaheim and he's code A, so maybe Trickster is partcularly bad or was jetlagged, etc.
it is amazing Trickster stays in Code S for so long for how he has been playing. he is going down for sure as I do not see he stand a chance in the heavily stacked up&down
It's about time trickster gets knocked out of code s like fruit. I've never been impressed with trickster since GSL season 1 as I never saw anything special and great about his play.
There are some players that have managed to stay in code s for a while that aren't good at all like these players. Hopefully they get weeded out soon, but somehow ensnare gets lucky every season and manages to stay in code s.
On August 30 2011 02:49 Dc_Starcraft wrote: Honestly if idra can get out of the slump that he is he could place top 3 but he just makes stupid choices in game which cost him the game. Also I feel that HuK and Nani could be up there too esp with HuK being in GSL. Everyone just needs to play as hard as they do to get ready for the next MLG.
Yea I saw two games of Idra where he overmade mutas and undermade banelings and lost twice the same way.
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is only going to widen. They practice more and as long as they are improving faster, foreigners will never catch up.
I beg to differ. This current generation of pros is probably screwed. However, they are building infrastructure for talented new players to be able to practice like Koreans. The eg houses, the reign house, The house tlo shares with other pros have all cropped up in the past year or so. The international SC2 scene has more potential because it can support more players. The lack of major Korean tournaments will drive more mid level Koreans to foreign teams I think, Allowing weaker players in the non-Korean scene to learn from them. Also, the win rate in pool play at least is lowered a lot by players like incontrol and machine who really shouldn't be there.
If you remove players that are regarded as undeserving in pool play (Players that have regularly underperformed in MLG pool play, I removed moonan, TLO, Haypro, incontrol and machine) You get a result of 35-14, which, while bad is still a lot closer
The infrastructure development is nice but I think the driving force behind Korean success is the culture. I mean they even got the airline to sponsor their tournaments. That sounds pretty mainstream to me. They have their slots on TV and everything. I don't live in Korea but I guess being a progamer is viewed like any other profession. The same can't be said about the foreign scene. It is the building of the culture that is holding the foreign scene back.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
On August 30 2011 02:48 puzzl wrote: Bring over Line, GuineaPig, San, and Revival and it will be a totally different story. The Koreans aren't invulnerable, as proven by Tester, only the top Koreans are invulnerable. We have no chance against Bomber yet, but the low Code A caliber players are definitely beatable.
These players could very well rape foreigners easily, CoCa has "bad" GSL stats and still dominated at MLG. Sure his recent switch to Slayers may have improved his ZvT which was his worst match-up (because losing against NesTea, LosirA and Leenock in ZvZ doesn't mean that you are bad at it...) but still. No matter the korean (the ones in training house I mean) you invite, if they are in a team that is familiar with foreign tournaments and that they have had a good sleep, they will do well.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
I would like some1 to pull stats of mana vs koreans? I got the feeling he has the best record.
Excellent post. Really illuminates the situation at MLG. I can't see why everyone is overreacting and so bleak. With the exception of rain and possibly to a lesser extent boxeR and herO, the koreans in the top spots would still be formidable opponents even against the typical Koreans. People like to point out that Nestea, MVP, and MC would roll any MLG no matter what foreigner attends. Well, no shit they're the most likely candidates to roll through the gsl too. Nestea went undefeated last season.
The point I'm getting at is, we should be alarmed if low-tier to average Koreans start to dominate everyone. When Ensnare, anypro, fruitdealer, san, min, thebest, alive, etc are in our top spots then I think it's time to throw in the towel.
Not to mention the foreigners could've used much better representation. Would have loved to see incontrol, tlo, moonan, haypro, and machine traded for: Sen, Thorzain, Stephano, Dimaga, and mana. The only real top foreigners at this past mlg were huk and naniwa....maybe idra (not too sure anymore...).
edit: Also, despite all this I don't think we'll get a foreigner in the top 3 with only 2 more MLGs. Most of the really good EU players (where the majority of the good foreigners are) don't seem to want to come with the current system. Also, MLG is likely going to snag at least 3 top tier koreans for the national what with having 50k for first and all (we might see nestea finally :O!). Orlando will probably be about the same as Raleigh. :/
It's only because more protoss players are attending the tournament. With some exceptions of underleveled Korean players, protoss players will most likely be the spot foreigners can exploit unless there is a patch.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
I would like some1 to pull stats of mana vs koreans? I got the feeling he has the best record.
He has beaten Puma, Nada and Supernova, and has lost vs Zenio, Bomber, Boxer, MC, July. He probably has one of the best records, but it still isn't very good. The sample size still isn't very big compared to most people at MLG. Put it this way, if Mana was put into pool A instead of Incontrol, would he have done anything to stop Coca laughing his way to a 10-0? I don't think so. I can't see him beating any good Korean Zerg, and he looked pretty outclassed vs MC. His PvT is very good, but it seems that Koreans need to remember the thing they did which made colossus leave the matchup. I have no idea why zealot archon became the standard in Korea because if there is anything which is not bad vs ghosts, it is colossi. I'm sure if a Korean Terran knew Toss was going Colossi they could counter it amazingly easily, but they certainly don't show that knowledge when they are "surprised" by a colossus build (which is still the standard in EU/NA).
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Select is Korean, but not practicing in Korea - Moved to foreigner using my criteria. HuK is American/Canadian - Moved to foreigner using my criteria.
They must be BOTH of korean descent and living / practicing in korea.
I agree that you may be too subjective in your criteria. What length of time does a Korean need to live and play outside of Korea to be considered a Foreigner going forward? What if Puma or Hero moves out west to live for a bit and THEN wins a MLG down the line (this would be the same as Select winning). Does that win count as a Foreigner or Korean?? Obviously, they are Korean born and Korean trained.
Everyone's view of Select as a foreigner is just bias because that is most everyone's first introduction to him when he lived in the US already. Before that, he was a player living in Korea, just like Puma or Hero.
I definitely think we can have a top3 foreigner. And as many already has said I think HuK and Naniwa have very good chances to do this, but I will also put Thorzain up there. I missed him during this MLG and think he could have done very well.
It's great to see so much optimism in the OP, but the reality of the situation is much more bleak. The skill gap between foreigners and Koreans is going to get larger.
There are hundreds of Pumas playing an arguably dying game in Korea called BW. Once, not if, SC2 begins to become more accepted in Korea. The influx of awesome BW players that are eventually going to make the switch to SC2 will put the foreigner scene into the stone age.
I want foreigners to succeed as much as the next guy, but SC2 will eventually become what BW is today.
I know there is no community consensus on what constitutes a "korean" player. But the criteria used to identify korean players for the purposes of these statistics are pretty clearly in favour of manipulating the statistics in favour of forieign players.
I mean.. to be a Korean player you have to both be Korean AND living in Korea?
Personally I think it should be done EITHER on current residency OR on nationality.
I mean if you do it on both residency and nationality you could get some pretty weird results. For example, you could equally well say Huk does not qualify as a foreigner as he does not satisfy the critera of being BOTH foreign born AND residing in a foreign country.
Clearly without a community standard of what a Korean player is, statistics like these will always be somewhat controversial. In my opinion it would be better to keep it simple. However, the OPo does at least the OP does make it clear what the criteria are.