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On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
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On August 30 2011 04:00 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists. I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst. And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Agreed. Players like Stephano and Nerchio have beaten players like Thorzain and DeMuslim pretty handily in the past.
TvZ is a volatile matchup however and who knows how these players would fare against each other today.
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I like how the topic is titled "Koreans vs. White Guys", and Select is included in the statistics of who Koreans dropped sets to
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I thought I saw somewhere that Rain is currently in the US anyways? Not sure...
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The fact that they have to both be living in Korea and be of Korean descent kind of annoys me. I wouldn't of minded one or the other, but the fact that you used both is really aggravating for many different reasons.
First off, the reason people consider Koreans better doesn't really have to do anything with their ethnicity, although we like to joke about it that way.
It has to do with the fact that they live in practice in Korea. Practicing in Korea usually means you live in a team house with a bunch of other people playing Starcraft, so essentially you have people to keep you motivated and practicing at all times. Also, you have people to theorycraft with all the time and share hints, whether about mechanics or strategies. This is why the players coming from Korea destroy all the foreigners essentially.
So, honestly I don't mind you not counting Select as Korean, but the fact that people consider Huk a foreigner when they do these stats is just silly, how long has he been in Korea? Since like GSL season 2 when Jinro made his epic run?? So, the majority of his career he has been playing there, stop calling him a foreigner.
Right now, it's fine to consider Naniwa, Thorzain, Idra, Fenix, and really any other non-Korean playing/practicing in Korea a foreigner because of how long they've been there (except for Jinro). This is why I consider Rain a Korean still (correct me if I'm wrong, but he is living in the states I heard, but I could be wrong), he has only been living outside of Korea for a few months.
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without trickster the koreans had a 85% win rate.
Against top tier players like mvp, nestea, bomber, etc foreigners virtually have no chance of winning and I don't see that ever changing.
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On August 30 2011 04:02 Liudo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:00 Elefanto wrote:On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists. I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst. And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well. Agreed. Players like Stephano and Nerchio have beaten players like Thorzain and DeMuslim pretty handily in the past. TvZ is a volatile matchup however and who knows how these players would fare against each other today.
I think TvZ past the early game is the least volatile matchup of all.
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On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists. Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
so true pretty sure nerchio and stephano have gotten raped by every korean they've played against. at some point ppl need to drop the fanboyism and face reality
i think mc owned nerchio easily with terran? 0-3 vs puma, etc.
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On August 30 2011 04:12 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:02 Liudo wrote:On August 30 2011 04:00 Elefanto wrote:On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists. I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst. And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well. Agreed. Players like Stephano and Nerchio have beaten players like Thorzain and DeMuslim pretty handily in the past. TvZ is a volatile matchup however and who knows how these players would fare against each other today. I think TvZ past the early game is the least volatile matchup of all.
1 baneling landmine, or 1 fungal killing 30+ supply isn't volatile?
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i feel so sick whenever i see the koreans dominate the foreign tourneys i used to think that top eu/na are on par with top koreans.
seriously guys (aka you eu/na pros) please practice more or use whatever methods you can to improve yourselves kk
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I wonder how Sen would do at MLG...top 3 NASL was pretty impressive.
Oh, and China is by far the best foreigner country already, although they aren't "white guys" by definition. Nor are Sen or Select of course.
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On August 30 2011 01:42 jj33 wrote: what the hell it only quoted you.
I'll just post here.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
simple logic
Your "simple" logic is broken.
If the requirement to be considered "Korean" is being Korean AND be living in Korea, a foreigner just has to fail one of these conditions; i.e. Not being Korean OR not be living in Korea.
It's not a double standard at all, and the conditions work fine.
I also don't agree with them though. For me it makes more sense to consider a player "Korean" if he/she has been training in Korea for over 6 months previous the last say, 3 week or a month.
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On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Yeah Mana is pretty good at dodging Koreans. 2-0 Nada and Puma. Sup son?
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On August 30 2011 04:00 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists. I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst. And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Just to nitpick, Nada made it out of groups, but he was defeated by Mana.
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On August 30 2011 04:29 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:00 Elefanto wrote:On August 30 2011 03:20 Micket wrote:On August 30 2011 03:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 30 2011 01:33 RudePlague wrote:On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG. International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa? Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists. I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst. And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well. Just to nitpick, Nada made it out of groups, but he was defeated by Mana. To be fair, Mana's PvT is prettttty good 2-0 Puma and Nada ezpz
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only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
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hmmm so puma, rain aren't korean? select is foreigner?
robinho is italian, park ji sung is english, beckham is american, c.ronaldo is spanish.
am i dong this right?
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On August 30 2011 01:02 {ToT}ColmA wrote: a place in top6 is doable even thou highly unlikely, the top invites form korea will always beat the shit out of foreigners, no foreigner could touch drg bomber or coca and i dont see foreigners improve at any rate they would need to actually pull off some stunt
but who really cares, even thou slashers tears are delicious in the end the best player should win and thats whats happening in mlg so far
saw destiny beat bomber 2 months ago 2-1 ? : P lol
That's a pretty ignorant thought process, non-koreans just need to practice just as much. Koreans aren't born from the womb with a copy of SC2 in the hands of the parents, its all about dedication.
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On August 30 2011 04:30 everytimee wrote: only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
agree agree agree
It's just that people newer to Starcraft aren't as familiar with the concept as we are, and thus the wounds hurt more...that and they enter more foreign stuff than just WCG now considering the globalization of the scene.
But yah, if the game had bw mechanics and understanding of builds/timings, catching up would turn from being improbable to impossible :O.
oh and I forgot to mention the talent still in bw
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