|
On the matter if a foreigner will place in top 3 this season...
Yes, I think it is fully possible. What I'm waiting for is a foreigner with great potential, someone like IdrA, HuK or Select, to start practicing hardcore, like 12 hours everyday with the sole purpose of placing top 3. I want to see someone get mad and do everything in their power to become "The Slayer of Koreans". I want them to study the Koreans who are coming (when they are announced) and know every single one of them like the back of his hand and have seamless builds planned out in every single match, covering every single variable. I think that's what it would take for it to happen.
|
On August 30 2011 02:31 [Agony]x90 wrote: When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans. Thank God for this post. Seriously. This is a good part of what people don't understand and I'm glad someone took the time to write it.
|
On August 30 2011 04:36 MERLIN. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:02 {ToT}ColmA wrote: a place in top6 is doable even thou highly unlikely, the top invites form korea will always beat the shit out of foreigners, no foreigner could touch drg bomber or coca and i dont see foreigners improve at any rate they would need to actually pull off some stunt
but who really cares, even thou slashers tears are delicious in the end the best player should win and thats whats happening in mlg so far saw destiny beat bomber 2 months ago 2-1 ? : P lol That's a pretty ignorant thought process, non-koreans just need to practice just as much. Koreans aren't born from the womb with a copy of SC2 in the hands of the parents, its all about dedication.
massing a unit that is getting signifigantly nerfed against someone experiencing high latency who is playing some random foreigner, while Destiny's reputation is on the line isn't exactly proving anything.
|
The people voting yes are voting on hopes/dreams, because the evidence does not support this happening lol.
You have to count the number of foreigners capable of competing agaisnt the Korean players coming over for MLG. There are... 3 maybe 4.
Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Thorzain. Even then their odds of winning a series is probably a 1/4 chance. which means they will lose 3x as much as they win vs these players.
IDK i dont see a foreigner placing top 3 anytime soon in mlg now
|
You guys are getting so technical like you're pretending to use your brains. I consider anyone who lives in korea and travels to US to play in MLG a KOREAN. Huk is a korean and Idra is an ex-korean. You also have to take into consideration that the koreans that come over to play arent even that good. I'm not sure but I think the only reason MVP played in one was because it gave him a code S spot. The reason they don't invite ALL newb koreans like trickster is because they dont want boring games like what happened at NASL. They also invite some koreans because they have a huge fan base. koreans stealin all your tourney money lawl
|
Yeah sorry progress hasn't been made at all. The statistics really just depend on which Koreans happen to be invited and which ones end up trying to go through the open bracket.
|
On August 30 2011 04:49 Iberville wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 02:31 [Agony]x90 wrote: When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans. Thank God for this post. Seriously. This is a good part of what people don't understand and I'm glad someone took the time to write it.
Another thing that might matter is the Pro player per square mile. Korea has a lot more people playing starcraft per square mile which means its easier for large pro houses to get set up while players are still close enough to their family. Having pro players in same roof is a good thing since it provides some pressure to practice and also rapid exchange of ideas. In case of USA and europe this can't happen. Most teams tend to be split apart geographically which prevents effective practice and hence rise of skill.
|
On August 30 2011 04:44 rift wrote: only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
so true. and that's what people dont realize. foreigners will ALWAYS be worse than koreans. always. and theres nothing we can do about it, its just the way it is. accept it, please.
|
On August 30 2011 04:24 fer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:42 jj33 wrote: what the hell it only quoted you.
I'll just post here.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
simple logic Your "simple" logic is broken. If the requirement to be considered "Korean" is being Korean AND be living in Korea, a foreigner just has to fail one of these conditions; i.e. Not being Korean OR not be living in Korea. It's not a double standard at all, and the conditions work fine. I also don't agree with them though. For me it makes more sense to consider a player "Korean" if he/she has been training in Korea for over 6 months previous the last say, 3 week or a month.
There are at least three different ways people use the descriptor "Korean" (as opposed to "Foreigner") on TL: Korean nationality, Korean training, or as our OP used it, both.
Considering just group play in MLG this year (because those are the easiest numbers to put together): Korean nationality 93-41 69% win rate of matches Korean training 89-21 81% win rate of matches* Both 82-18 82% win rate of matches
(* counts Huk. If you want to add Naniwa as Korean trained just for Raleigh, or remove Rain for Raleigh since he's living in NY now, or both, it doesn't make an appreciable difference. If you did both, they'd exactly cancel out.)
So whether or not you agree with the OP's definition of Korean vs. Foreigner, he wasn't cherry-picking the definition that would make foreigners look best or worst. It's just about the same, whether or not Huk is "our foreign hope" or whether he now counts as Korean.
|
Yeah we have to step it up! I think, despite what the numbers say, we can get someone into the top 3. Of course this is just my heart talking =P
|
I hope Rekrul writes another "and foreigners STILL suck".
|
On August 30 2011 05:29 Spitmode wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:44 rift wrote: only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners. so true. and that's what people dont realize. foreigners will ALWAYS be worse than koreans. always. and theres nothing we can do about it, its just the way it is. accept it, please.
Numbers-wise I think the comparison is something like this: current near-the-top Koreans at MLG have about an 80% win rate, though they are obviously playing each other. The chance of Flash Jaedong Bisu Stork or even any A-teamer in BW beating top foreigners (read: IdrA ret) was about 95% or higher, losing typically in short games (Jaedong vs Advokate). Only the Chinese could compete: PJ at WCG 2007 beating Savior 2-1 in macro games and his performance at WCG 09; LX - watch his games against Flash at WCG '10, he holds up impressively. Of course, the foreigner scene today is much larger/more competitive; but again, the game is different and so is the KR talent pool.
In other words: be happy that we can take games, period.
|
On August 30 2011 05:11 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 04:49 Iberville wrote:On August 30 2011 02:31 [Agony]x90 wrote: When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans. Thank God for this post. Seriously. This is a good part of what people don't understand and I'm glad someone took the time to write it. Another thing that might matter is the Pro player per square mile. Korea has a lot more people playing starcraft per square mile which means its easier for large pro houses to get set up while players are still close enough to their family. Having pro players in same roof is a good thing since it provides some pressure to practice and also rapid exchange of ideas. In case of USA and europe this can't happen. Most teams tend to be split apart geographically which prevents effective practice and hence rise of skill.
This, IMHO, is the biggest factor. You only improve by playing against people at the same level or better, and those improvements only spread by communication with people near the same level. And that is greatly enhanced by physical presence.
I think the only hope for Foreigner near-parity is if Blizzard (in software) or telecommunication companies (in hardware) manage to improve cross-ocean lag enough that the KR ladder can be merged with AM or EU or both, like with the NA/SA to AM merge.
|
IdrA/PuMa/HuK training with koreans and together.
IdrA and HuK are going to at least take top 3 by next year.
|
On August 30 2011 05:08 Taug wrote: You guys are getting so technical like you're pretending to use your brains. I consider anyone who lives in korea and travels to US to play in MLG a KOREAN. Huk is a korean and Idra is an ex-korean. You also have to take into consideration that the koreans that come over to play arent even that good. I'm not sure but I think the only reason MVP played in one was because it gave him a code S spot. The reason they don't invite ALL newb koreans like trickster is because they dont want boring games like what happened at NASL. They also invite some koreans because they have a huge fan base. koreans stealin all your tourney money lawl MVP already was in code s
and trickster a noob ? really?
|
On August 30 2011 05:56 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 05:08 Taug wrote: You guys are getting so technical like you're pretending to use your brains. I consider anyone who lives in korea and travels to US to play in MLG a KOREAN. Huk is a korean and Idra is an ex-korean. You also have to take into consideration that the koreans that come over to play arent even that good. I'm not sure but I think the only reason MVP played in one was because it gave him a code S spot. The reason they don't invite ALL newb koreans like trickster is because they dont want boring games like what happened at NASL. They also invite some koreans because they have a huge fan base. koreans stealin all your tourney money lawl MVP already was in code s and trickster a noob ? really? Yeah, this guy doesn't know what he is talking about at all...
|
you missed Oz. he was at the last MLG
also:
Players had to be both of Korean descent and training in Korea to be considered a Korean by me
pretty sure Rain has been living in New York. so if you don't include select you can't include Rain either.
|
Fun read, you forgot HwangSin for Raleigh though.
|
I dont think foreigner will take top 3 next MLG. Maybe HuK/Naniwa with the combination of Korea practice and protoss buff coming? Interesting to see if Sjow can get a notch higher in Korea to, would make him a candidate as well.
I would however say that one of the important reason that foreigners is having a hard time because of which foreigners that have the pool slots. I mean TLO, Incontrol, Machine, Haypro, Moonan? Are any of those like top 30 foreigners?
Exchange those 5 players against say Stephano, Thorzain, Dimaga, Sen and Mana. Then I think we would have foreigner in top3 in some of the remaining MLG:s.
Course it depends a lot on what Korea sends also, if Korea would send their 8-10 top players I doubt it would happen still for a while.
A note also: Funny how so many persons here speaks about foreigners in a third person manner. I case you forgot we are the foreigners. "We" can not compete with the Koreans. You might wanne say "omg we suck so bad" rather then "omg foreigners suck so bad". Somehow I doubt that the people writing that foreigners sucks could do a better job.
|
MLG still lack most of the best European players like Mana, White-ra, Thorzian, nerchio, stephano, Kas, BratOK, Dimaga as well as Sen and all the Chinese players. I think it's more interesting to look at multiple tournaments over the coming months and see how the non-koreans are doing.
|
|
|
|