I decided to take a look at the W/L of Koreans vs Foreigners at the MLGs. I figure we're now 3 MLGs into the GSL/MLG exchange program and it's a good time to see if any progress has been made on the part of the foreigners. Players had to be both of Korean descent and training in Korea to be considered a Korean by me. All others (Select, HuK, etc.) were considered foreigners.
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
Overall 10W - 1L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 91% W/L
Finished 1st overall
Losira:
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
Overall 10W - 2L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 83% W/L
Finished 2nd overall
MC:
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 2nd in pool to Idra.
Overall 16W - 5L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Lost 1 set (Idra). 76% W/L
Finished 3rd overall
Moon:
[nvited and placed into pool play. Finished 3rd in pool behind Naniwa and Slush.
Overall 8W - 7L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Lost 3 sets (Slush, Naniwa, Huk). 53% W/L
Finished 8th overall.
July:
Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 2nd in pool to MMA.
Overall 12W - 2L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 83% W/L
Finished 12th overall
Overall the Koreans went a combined 54W - 17L (76%) vs. foreigners at MLG Columbus. They dropped only 4sets (to Idra, Slush, Naniwa, Huk) and claimed the top 3 slots w/ only 5 Koreans in attendance. The top placing foreigner was Idra who finished 4th.
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
Overall 8W - 1L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 89% W/L
Finished 1st overall
MMA
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 2nd in pool to Rain.
Overall 10W - 1L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 91% W/L
Finished 2nd overall
Boxer
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
Overall 10W - 2L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 83% W/L
Finished 3rd overall
Ganzi
Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 2nd in pool to MMA.
Overall 16W - 1L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 94% W/L
Finished 4th overall
DongRaeGu
Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
Overall 10W - 1L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 91% W/L
Finished 5th overall
Rain
Went into pool play as returning player. Finished 1st in pool.
Overall 11W - 4L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 73% W/L
Finished 6th overall
Choya
Placed into open bracket. Eliminated from open bracket by Tyler.
Overall 7W - 5L vs. foreigners throught tournament. Lost 2 sets (Tyler, Incontrol). 58% W/L
Finished 28th overall
Alicia
Placed into open bracket. Eliminated from open bracket by ToD.
Overall 2W - 4L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Lost 2 sets (ToD x2). 33% W/L
Placed outside the top 50.
Overall the Koreans went a combined 74W - 19L (80%) vs. foreigners at MLG Anaheim. They dropped only 4sets (to Tyler, Incontrol and ToD twice) and claimed the top 6 slots w/ only 8 Koreans in attendance. The top placing foreigner was HuK who finished 7th.
Overall the Koreans went a combined 76W - 30L (72%) vs. foreigners at MLG Raleigh. They dropped 9 sets (Select and HuK twice, Sjow, Slush, TLO, Kiwikaki, Demuslim) and claimed the top 6 slots. There were a total of 9 Koreans at the tournament all placing in the top 17. The top placing foreigner was HuK who finished 7th.
Overall Thoughts The koreans have been dominating the MLGs, but some progress is being made. The overall W/L ratio vs foreigners dropped to 72% during this last MLG and Koreans dropped a total of 9 sets to foreigners.
The number of Koreans being eliminated by foreigners is also rising. None were eliminated by foreigners at Columbus, with 2 and 3 being eliminated at Anaheim and Raleigh respectively. This figure however, is somewhat inflated by the number of Koreans in attendance at these events.
Some foreigners are making strides against Koreans. Sjow for example eliminated Rain at Raleigh and has taken games off of Bomber, Hero and Moon. Slush is another player doing well against koreans. He's taken a sets off Trickster and Moon as well as games off DRG, Hero and Rain.
Although I don't think a foreigner will win an MLG the rest of this season, I could see a foreigner placing top 3 and stealing the GSL Code S slot. What do you think?
Poll: Will a foreigner place top 3 at any remaining MLG this season?
No (892)
73%
Yes (336)
27%
1228 total votes
Your vote: Will a foreigner place top 3 at any remaining MLG this season?
EDIT: For those Korean players coming from the open bracket (Ganzi, July, etc.), I only counted their games vs. well known foreigners. For example, July beat d_wAy in his first match at MLG Columbus. This match occurred in the open bracket and I did not count this match towards his overall W/L vs. foreigners. I did count his matches in the open bracket against more well known players such as Agh and Optikzero.
Top 3, probably not. Top 6, I would think so. Huk and Nani have been close, and with the number of foreigners going overseas, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a foreigner won an MLG in the next year.
You have to take into consideration the skill of the koreans that came to this mlg.
Placing top 3 depends on which koreans are invited/turn up, if you bring koreans who hardly practice (trickster, fruitdealer) sure foreigners will do well and likely place top 3. but tip top koreans? no chance
Slowly some foreigners will rise through to compete against Koreans, but only those (such as Huk) who are willing to train w/ them or at least to the same degree as them. Anyone who commits longterm to Korea will be able to compete, and with some NA teamhouses opening up, it may help raise the level of foreigners as well.
As far as this season goes, I'm not sure if anyone will be able to break through for a top3, unless they really go on a run. Huk probably has one of the best chances, but only if his travel schedule gets a bit easier.
Next season I think there will be a better chance as more NA players seem committed to trying to compete with the Koreans. Hopefully they are willing to put in the longterm commitment needed though.
good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once...
I don't really see any top 3's coming, but who know, things could change around a bit. I think HuK does have a chance if he's not exhausted, but he seemed rather thrown off by the Zerg strategies thrown at him this tournament (only watched his matches vs Coca and I'm by no means an expert). If he practices hard and rests up some I think he's still a contender for around top 5. There were some great matches in Raleigh, and a lot of them were very close. I can't rule out the possibility, but I really don't think top 3 is going to happen.
On August 30 2011 01:01 scarymeerkat wrote: good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once...
a place in top6 is doable even thou highly unlikely, the top invites form korea will always beat the shit out of foreigners, no foreigner could touch drg bomber or coca and i dont see foreigners improve at any rate they would need to actually pull off some stunt
but who really cares, even thou slashers tears are delicious in the end the best player should win and thats whats happening in mlg so far
Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
I do think that, with more and more foreigners going to Korea, there is a good chance a foreigner could get top 3 at Orlando or Providence. I personally can see a lot coming out of Sjow and NaNiwa. With these two to be training in Korea, their already great results will be backed up with some great training. Will it be enough for a top 3 finish? I'm hoping so.
Also, we saw some great games with both SeleCT and KiWiKaKi - if they keep training hard, they could definitely make a larger splash in upcoming MLGs.
On August 30 2011 01:01 scarymeerkat wrote: good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once...
Why not? Patch is coming. Both Huk and Naniwa are talented, hardworking and practice in korea. At least one of them ( hopefully both ) can make a breakthrough.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
i think a lot of the anomaly this tournament had to do with the dynamics of protoss right now. i don't want to turn this into a balance thread, but it's pretty undeniable that protosses are having a lot of trouble with both pvz and pvt. this accounts for displays like hero versus sjow, which were way closer than one would have expected. i think select is possibly the best example of someone who has benefitted from the current metagame. he's a strong player, but in terms of achievements i don't think many would have picked him over huk. yet, he pulled off a very convincing win against a huk who, while not playing his best, didn't exactly make any terrible errors. i think this sort of fluctuation is to be expected whether the game is balanced or not, and since winrates for protoss have been a bit low as of late, it stands to reason that strong foreigners can take games off of weaker koreans.
of course, this doesn't account account for certain sets (kiwi vs nada, for instance) but i don't think it's so much that foreigners are making progress as it is the state of the metagame combined with the slightly weaker pool of koreans.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Select is Korean, but not practicing in Korea - Moved to foreigner using my criteria. HuK is American/Canadian - Moved to foreigner using my criteria.
They must be BOTH of korean descent and living / practicing in korea.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
I certainly hope the foreigners can make some progress, I don't think bringing Koreans over just to see them take top5 every time is sustainable.
I think a good compromise might be to invite some Koreans who aren't top3 of their race but still have large fanbases, for example Boxer and Nada. Inviting people like Bomber or MVP... Well, the foreigner scene just isn't ready for them, and it shows.
It will probably take another 1 or 2 years of foreigners training in Korea before we start seeing them in the top three. Bottom line, Koreans have been playing pro SC longer and thus, understand what it takes to take the game to the highest levels. I think foreigners as a whole are just starting to understand this concept (by receiving continued ass beatings from the Koreans).
Thanks for this, definitely a very interesting write up.
I think that foreigners have the ability to breach the top 3, but the problem is that the amount of foreigners that have that ability, and actually practice enough, is so incredibly low that when it comes down to it it's going to require a good bit of luck as well as skill for any foreigner to make top 3.
Koreans will probably be top 5-6 at Orlando too, assuming they bring a teamers. But a foreigner will, indeed, win MLG Orlando. Although, he is Korean, he is a foreigner at heart! HE IS...
why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?)
On August 30 2011 01:22 farnham wrote: why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?)
Simple answer: Select does not live and train in Korea, Rain does. Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want.
MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Huk isn't of korean descent....why is this so hard for you? Simple logic.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
Good writeup, but i don´t think your conclusion is really valid as more Koreans came its more likely that overall their stats will look lower because the game has some volatility(so did BW before people jump at me).
I don´t think much progress was made IMO. I hope foreigners step it up next time
Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
depressing, that s why im glad NASL wont have so many of them. Chances are Puma Hero and the couple others they menage to grab still all gonna finish very high. I really want big tournaments where foreigners can show who s the best amongst them.
Something you should take into consideration is the fact that some Koreans go through the open bracket and that is basicly 2-3 free-wins vs random people.
I would count Huk as a foreigner as you want to compare players with Korean training vs player who does not have Korean training. That's what you need to figure out that it's not the fact that they are from Korea that enables them to win. It's the fact that Koreans practice better and more.
And no, you dont count Naniwa and Thorzain as Korean training as they have not been there long enough. When you decide if a player is Korean trained or not, well that's just up to you.
On August 30 2011 01:22 farnham wrote: why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?)
Simple answer: Select does not live and train in Korea, Rain does. Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want.
rain is living in usa afaik (studying or some shit)
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
yeah it's a doublestandard and inconsistent. you can't be like 'a player is of a nationality if he was born there and trains there' and then turn around and call huk a foreigner when he doesn't fit your own criteria.
Top 3? Maybe if Thorzain, Sen, White-ra etc don't have to go through the brutal open bracket, and replace players that doesn't deserve pool play anymore, not naming names but we know who they are.
A Korean is someone who is training "Korean style" aka gaming house, coaching, massive amounts of time sunk in. Idra/HuK count as Koreans in this case.
It has nothing to do with ethnicity or nationality and everything to do with practicing style. Anyone can achieve Korean-level play if they practice like a Korean.
On August 30 2011 01:22 farnham wrote: why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?)
Simple answer: Select does not live and train in Korea, Rain does. Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want.
Rain lives in NY with his dad... has been for the past two months
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
Isn't Rain living in the US?
The point is the criteria doesn't make much sense. Why must it be both of them? Are you comparing if the scene is stronger in Korea? If so, why not using everyone that is practicing over there? Or are you comparing if koreans are genetically superior? If so, why not counting all koreans?
I can't understand the reasoning besides that criteria, except maybe to avoid the discussion that would follow because people just can't seem to agree on it.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
On August 30 2011 00:55 lolsixtynine wrote: Top 3, probably not. Top 6, I would think so.
i think basically this. it works at the moment that all the pool winners lock up 4/6 of those spots and 2 of the top 3, which is real tight to get into. on the other hand, i can certainly perceive a situation where a naniwa/huk type of player to get up to second/third in a pool and then win a couple of series to get there
As long as the big star koreans come over, i don't think any foreigner will take an MLG. But if only Trickster class koreans were invited, the foreigners would have a really good shot at it.
On August 30 2011 01:34 Boonbag wrote: using thin metal chopsticks since birth develops eye hand coordination
And watching censored porn gives them super-vision.
one time in Korea Everlast showed some foreign porn site pictures to his girlfriend and she claimed all these huge dongs were obviously fake because such sizes can't naturally exist
edit : sorry it's just so that we can have at least something we can hold to
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Apparently I have to spell it out.
It's a double standard.
to count select as a foreigner and say it's because he doens't live in korea, yet huk does.
So to consider a foreigner and foreigner, they should not only be of foreign descent but also live outside of korea.
Which huk does not fulfill both requirements.
simple logic.
either select is a korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
Huk isn't of korean descent....why is this so hard for you? Simple logic.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
yeah it's a doublestandard and inconsistent. you can't be like 'a player is of a nationality if he was born there and trains there' and then turn around and call huk a foreigner when he doesn't fit your own criteria.
exactly..
it's a double standard, apparently some people need to have it spelled out for them.
This is uninteresting, because essentially you're trying to correlate nationality to success instead of practice tradition to success. If you wanted any interesting data, then you should be looking at how much higher your chance of finishing well is with a rigid training environment, compared to a more loose one. I know it's not meant as such and with no malicious intentions, but essentially it's a sort of reverse racism.
It'd be interesting weighing specific training amounts/patterns to MLG performance. As in Bomber trains X number of hours per day and so on, and compare it to how much Kiwikaki, Naniwa, IdrA or whoever does.
On August 30 2011 01:44 OrchidThief wrote: This is uninteresting, because essentially you're trying to correlate nationality to success and not practice tradition to success. If you wanted any interesting data, then you should be looking at how much higher your chance of finishing well is with a rigid training environment, compared to a more loose one. I know it's not meant as such and with no malicious intentions, but essentially it's a sort of reverse racism.
It'd be interesting weighing specific training amounts/patterns to MLG performance. As in Bomber trains X number of hours per day and so on, and compare it to how much Kiwikaki, Naniwa, IdrA or whoever does.
that's like denying Korea is the best country in the world !
On August 30 2011 01:41 broz0rs wrote: lol "white guys"
As funny as the term seems, I much prefer it over "foreigners."
Problem is historically the best foreigners included many chineese or asian-americans, probably sc2 fans dont really remember but the TSL1 winner was an american called Jian Fei, and nowadays there are a tone who are either of korean chineese or japonese origin, + the actual chineese players, so white guys is even less correct, even if you count the hispanic people as white.
On August 30 2011 01:41 broz0rs wrote: lol "white guys"
As funny as the term seems, I much prefer it over "foreigners."
Problem is historically the best foreigners included many chineese or asian-americans, probably sc2 fans dont really remember but the TSL1 winner was an american called Jian Fei, and nowadays there are a tone who are either of korean chineese or japonese origin, + the actual chineese players, so white guys is even less correct, even if you count the hispanic people as white.
whats up with hispanic people ?
edit : btw what about "Korean-latent" people ? aka K-pop and korean idols / drama maniacs ?
This is like comparing the world to the USA basketball scene. U can send the top players in the NBA to any league in the world, and they'll dominate. The world can never catch up. Same with SC and koreans.
If nestea/MC/polt/MVP/losira/MMA/bomber... those guys keep coming.. everyone else is playing for 2nd. Huk is really good.. but he's no where compared to those guys. He is the best foreigner and his best placing is 7th?? Shows you there is no hope.
Only way to keep it competitive is not to invite the top tier players. I mean hero made it top 6.. and he can't even make it to code A
Well, the fact that the W/L ratio for Koreans is dropping progressively as each MLG passes can also be attributed to the larger number of Koreans competing each time Id also be interested to see what the statistics would be if you took out the Koreans on foreign teams (HerO, Puma, Rain)
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
Isn't Rain living in the US?
The point is the criteria doesn't make much sense. Why must it be both of them? Are you comparing if the scene is stronger in Korea? If so, why not using everyone that is practicing over there? Or are you comparing if koreans are genetically superior? If so, why not counting all koreans?
I can't understand the reasoning besides that criteria, except maybe to avoid the discussion that would follow because people just can't seem to agree on it.
I am not saying I agree with the criteria. It's just some guy can't wrap his head around the fact why OP doesn't consider Huk and Select Korean while OP stated his criteria clearly in the post. Whether that criteria makes sense or not I don't have an opinion.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
Isn't Rain living in the US?
The point is the criteria doesn't make much sense. Why must it be both of them? Are you comparing if the scene is stronger in Korea? If so, why not using everyone that is practicing over there? Or are you comparing if koreans are genetically superior? If so, why not counting all koreans?
I can't understand the reasoning besides that criteria, except maybe to avoid the discussion that would follow because people just can't seem to agree on it.
I am not saying I agree with the criteria. It's just some guy can't wrap his head around the fact why OP doesn't consider Huk and Select Korean while OP stated his criteria clearly in the post. Whether that criteria makes sense or not I don't have an opinion.
i like how people fight over how if huk is korean, but not haypro, and how select is korean, but not moonan
Clearly trickster needs to be invited to every MLG so the foreigners dont become too depressed. His fail makes sense too because of talk that trickster practices more like americans than koreans, goofing off and boozing as much as he practices. But hey, maybe he benches 200 pounds too.
On August 30 2011 01:55 darkest44 wrote: Clearly trickster needs to be invited to every MLG so the foreigners dont become too depressed. Makes sense too because of talk that trickster practices more like americans than koreans, goofing off and boozing as much as he practices.
still boozing soju and beers are two entirely different things
On August 30 2011 01:22 farnham wrote: why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?)
Simple answer: Select does not live and train in Korea, Rain does. Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
Isn't Rain living in the US?
The point is the criteria doesn't make much sense. Why must it be both of them? Are you comparing if the scene is stronger in Korea? If so, why not using everyone that is practicing over there? Or are you comparing if koreans are genetically superior? If so, why not counting all koreans?
I can't understand the reasoning besides that criteria, except maybe to avoid the discussion that would follow because people just can't seem to agree on it.
I am not saying I agree with the criteria. It's just some guy can't wrap his head around the fact why OP doesn't consider Huk and Select Korean while OP stated his criteria clearly in the post. Whether that criteria makes sense or not I don't have an opinion.
If you're referring to me. Clearly I see what he stated, but that's the point. His criteria doesn't make sense and is a double standard. I don't see why that's so hard to grasp.
On August 30 2011 01:55 darkest44 wrote: Clearly trickster needs to be invited to every MLG so the foreigners dont become too depressed. His fail makes sense too because of talk that trickster practices more like americans than koreans, goofing off and boozing as much as he practices.
i am amazed how badly he played again foreigners but
trickster showed very brilliant games against DRG and Hero
On August 30 2011 01:52 decaf wrote: I don't think the best foreigner will place higher than the worst invited korean this season.
didn't it already happen because sjow elminated rain ?
Rain was not invited IIRC. According to the OP's criteria (but not his post, surprisingly), Rain is not even among the koreans. I believe the worst performance from invited koreans was from Trickster, so it has already happened.
All this nationality talk is just retarded. We should be comparing other things like teams and the actual player. Ranking them according to skill. Not just saying foreigner or koreans. Its so stupid. Who cares if they are korean or foreign. Its not plastered on their shirts. Sponsors don't care where you are from. Practice doesn't either. Why should we?
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
Isn't Rain living in the US?
The point is the criteria doesn't make much sense. Why must it be both of them? Are you comparing if the scene is stronger in Korea? If so, why not using everyone that is practicing over there? Or are you comparing if koreans are genetically superior? If so, why not counting all koreans?
I can't understand the reasoning besides that criteria, except maybe to avoid the discussion that would follow because people just can't seem to agree on it.
I am not saying I agree with the criteria. It's just some guy can't wrap his head around the fact why OP doesn't consider Huk and Select Korean while OP stated his criteria clearly in the post. Whether that criteria makes sense or not I don't have an opinion.
If you're referring to me. Clearly I see what he stated, but that's the point. His criteria doesn't make sense and is a double standard. I don't see why that's so hard to grasp.
HE is defining the criteria. Whether you disagree with the criteria or not doesn't fucking matter. What YOU don't seem to understand is by HIS definition, both Huk and Select are considered foreigners. I would agree with him.
Secondly, it isn't a double standard if you consider over half of Huk's starcraft career was not spent in korea, while someone like Rain just BARELY left, and clearly still has atleast 95% of his career reflected from korean training, while being of korean descent.
On August 30 2011 01:59 Paragleiber wrote: The data in the OP is definitely not 100% correct. Moon didn't lose to Huk in Columbus. Huk wasn't even there. Maybe you should check the data again.
Neither was Rain as a returning player in Anaheim and put into pool play. He came from the open bracket.
Well considering Select and Huk both attended the NA invitational, I'd consider them both foreigners. But really Select is a korean participating in the foreigner scene and Huk is a foriegner in participating in both the foreigner and korean scene.
The rest is up to interpretation on how you want to draw lines.
On August 30 2011 01:44 OrchidThief wrote: This is uninteresting, because essentially you're trying to correlate nationality to success instead of practice tradition to success. If you wanted any interesting data, then you should be looking at how much higher your chance of finishing well is with a rigid training environment, compared to a more loose one. I know it's not meant as such and with no malicious intentions, but essentially it's a sort of reverse racism.
It'd be interesting weighing specific training amounts/patterns to MLG performance. As in Bomber trains X number of hours per day and so on, and compare it to how much Kiwikaki, Naniwa, IdrA or whoever does.
HuK the korean trained guy of course got the most kills on them, I'm however suprised that Jinro is not on that list. I mean he seems to be in a very long slump at the moment, strange considering how much terran domination we see in korea.
[QUOTE]On August 30 2011 02:02 acrimoneyius wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:58 jj33 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:52 positron. wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:33 SKC wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:25 positron. wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:15 jj33 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:13 acrimoneyius wrote: [QUOTE]On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
[/QUOTE]
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...[/QUOTE]
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
[/QUOTE] Do you understand what AND means? He made it clear that to him Korean must be of Korean descent and living in Korea. Huk is not Korean and Select is not living in Korea.
[/QUOTE]
Isn't Rain living in the US?
The point is the criteria doesn't make much sense. Why must it be both of them? Are you comparing if the scene is stronger in Korea? If so, why not using everyone that is practicing over there? Or are you comparing if koreans are genetically superior? If so, why not counting all koreans?
I can't understand the reasoning besides that criteria, except maybe to avoid the discussion that would follow because people just can't seem to agree on it. [/QUOTE] I am not saying I agree with the criteria. It's just some guy can't wrap his head around the fact why OP doesn't consider Huk and Select Korean while OP stated his criteria clearly in the post. Whether that criteria makes sense or not I don't have an opinion. [/QUOTE]
If you're referring to me. Clearly I see what he stated, but that's the point. His criteria doesn't make sense and is a double standard. I don't see why that's so hard to grasp.
damnit again posted just your quote. sorry about that.
here is my post
and things like this open to discussion. His criteria is a double standard. that's the point.
HIS definition is wrong. pure and simple and you only seem to want to agree with him to skew the stats to help foreigners look better.
If we go by anybody's random definition without any open discussion, then I can make the most random stupid criteria and it's ok, because afterall it's MY own criteria. =]
I think Koreans certainly have the edge right now, but the skill gap is not that big.
One player that really impressed me this MLG was Kiwikaki, I've always thought of him as second rate in comparison to the likes of HuK and Naniwa, but no longer. With a bit of luck (and some balance patches...), Kiwi's run could have been even stronger.
Kiwi was SO CLOSE to beating PuMa and taking 1st in his group, I feel like in game 3 he made the bold but perhaps unwise decision to grab the bull by the horns and pick one of the best maps for 1/1/1 all-in against one of the best players at executing it, almost daring PuMa to do it. He failed to stop it, but it was tight.
Now imagine for a second that Kiwi had beat PuMa in g2 or g3. He would be #1 in his group, and be seeded against Coca in the upper bracket. If he wins there, bam, a foreigner in the top 4. If he loses, no biggie, he drops down and plays NaDa, starting with a 2-0 extended series advantage. He can probably win that, meaning foreigner in top 5 and then face DRG for top 4.
Instead of course he got 2nd in his group, is seeded against Hero and loses, finishing 10th overall. I'm just trying to show how with just a little bit of extra luck/skill/magic many players could have fared much better, MLG isn't the most forgiving tournament.
I think there is a good chance that one of the foreigners will place top 3. It really depends on the invites.
Also, the statistics are inconsistent. Sometimes you count open bracket statistics and sometimes you don't. For example, for Puma you don't count his open bracket record while for Alicia you do. That's misleading. Decide whether you want to count it or not. Also Rain isn't considered a "Korean" since he's no longer in Korea. Isn't he in NY with his family? Just be consistent.
I think that in this season no Foreigner will go in the Top 3, perhaps also no one in the Top 6. At this time, no one can often beat the korans, and when a Top player like Huk can beat some koreans, versus Bomber, DRG or other High code S Players, he have no chance.
But in 1-2 years, when the many foreigners which are in Korea right now will had improve so mutch that they even can beat the koreans. I hope...^^
Koreans simply outclass the foreigners right now. Then again, that should be expected so I'm not all that surprised. But Huk/Puma have come closest to beating the Koreans so if anyone will do it, it might be them. Oh and Hero too!!
On August 30 2011 00:49 CptGrackSparrow wrote: Overall Thoughts The koreans have been dominating the MLGs, but some progress is being made. The overall W/L ratio vs foreigners dropped to 72% during this last MLG and Koreans dropped a total of 9 sets to foreigners.
that's only because some individual koreans fucked up. look at TesteR, choya and Alicia. the top placing koreans still have a ~90% win ratio.
i say it will get worse. also this
On August 30 2011 02:12 SoKHo wrote: Also, the statistics are inconsistent. Sometimes you count open bracket statistics and sometimes you don't. For example, for Puma you don't count his open bracket record while for Alicia you do. That's misleading. Decide whether you want to count it or not. Also Rain isn't considered a "Korean" since he's no longer in Korea. Isn't he in NY with his family? Just be consistent.
On August 30 2011 02:12 SoKHo wrote: I think there is a good chance that one of the foreigners will place top 3. It really depends on the invites.
Also, the statistics are inconsistent. Sometimes you count open bracket statistics and sometimes you don't. For example, for Puma you don't count his open bracket record while for Alicia you do. That's misleading. Decide whether you want to count it or not. Also Rain isn't considered a "Korean" since he's no longer in Korea. Isn't he in NY with his family? Just be consistent.
95% of Rain's training is in korea..therefore he'd be lumped together with the skill associated with players from korea (not to mention he was born there). Select would be considered an exception because, while of korean descent, he doesn't receive the same benefits of training from the skill-density in korea. Player's like Huk don't suddenly "transform into korean" after training for a few months. There are probably better methods of Nameology, but I don't know of them.
On August 30 2011 02:12 SoKHo wrote: I think there is a good chance that one of the foreigners will place top 3. It really depends on the invites.
Also, the statistics are inconsistent. Sometimes you count open bracket statistics and sometimes you don't. For example, for Puma you don't count his open bracket record while for Alicia you do. That's misleading. Decide whether you want to count it or not. Also Rain isn't considered a "Korean" since he's no longer in Korea. Isn't he in NY with his family? Just be consistent.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
No it's not.
He's saying you have to be Korean descent and living in korea to be considered korean.
yet he counts select as a foreigner, even though he is a Korean citizen. Huk is a Canadian citizen I believe and he trains in korea and lives there currently, then he should be considered a korean by his criteria.
Sjow was damn close...but Hero is so good..and I think IdrA always has a chance on his good days. His play was a little disappointing this MLG, and I hope he comes back at least top 8 next time.
It's pretty doubtful that a foreigner will place Top 3 at any of the remaining MLG.
It's almost set in stone that a non-korean will not take First place in any of the remaining MLG.
I suppose HuK could win and some others as well, But it hasn't happened yet so that isn't much incentive to believe that the current run of Korean domination in MLG won't continue.
More motivation for foreign pros to practice longer and harder I guess, But koreans dominate at that too in most cases =\.
On August 30 2011 02:21 absalom86 wrote: I think Tester was solely responsible for lowering the win percentage for Koreans quite a lot this last MLG.
I agree completely. It would've been just as bad as Anaheim if any of the strongest Koreans had attended (Nestea, MVP, etc).
One thing that I find some comfort in is this: before Raleigh, I honestly thought that no one from code S could possibly do bad in a foreign tournament. Now I see that the weaker code S players don't destroy foreigners completely. That said, Ganzi didn't lose to foreigners in Anaheim and he's code A, so maybe Trickster is partcularly bad or was jetlagged, etc.
i think kiwikaki had the best showing vs the koreans. not only was he at their level of play, but he always managed to always take games off them and even crushed nada. its just too bad puma had to do the 1/1/1 to close the series.
but like people have said, the skill difference is within reach for the foreigners.
When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans.
On August 30 2011 02:31 WniO wrote: i think kiwikaki had the best showing vs the koreans. not only was he at their level of play, but he always managed to always take games off them and even crushed nada. its just too bad puma had to do the 1/1/1 to close the series.
but like people have said, the skill difference is within reach for the foreigners.
I didn't catch Kiwi vs Hero or hear anything about it, was it close? He seems to get eliminated in PvP every MLG.
I attended Anaheim and watch all the Raleigh games. Ignoring stats for a moment, I had a sense that the level of play and dynamic of the games indicated much improvement for foreigners. Watching Koreans dominate Anaheim was like watching GMs play Masters, but this MLG looked a little bit more competitive overall.
As far as the ongoing argument of definition of "foreigner", there's many variables too consider. Don't forget that growing up in Korea may be a significantly influence your gaming ethic and mindset. After all Korea is the mecca of ESPORTS and players like Bomber have been directly exposed to high level Starcraft for a great portion of their lives, more-so than HuK/Naniwa.
Still HuK has demonstrated so much submersion into Korean SC2, I feel like he is learning so fast and almost approaching the level of a Korean ex-BW player. Top 3 for MLG Orlando is definitively possible for him. Unless MVP and NesTea happen...
On August 30 2011 02:10 Alzadar wrote: I think Koreans certainly have the edge right now, but the skill gap is not that big.
One player that really impressed me this MLG was Kiwikaki, I've always thought of him as second rate in comparison to the likes of HuK and Naniwa, but no longer. With a bit of luck (and some balance patches...), Kiwi's run could have been even stronger.
Kiwi was SO CLOSE to beating PuMa and taking 1st in his group, I feel like in game 3 he made the bold but perhaps unwise decision to grab the bull by the horns and pick one of the best maps for 1/1/1 all-in against one of the best players at executing it, almost daring PuMa to do it. He failed to stop it, but it was tight.
Now imagine for a second that Kiwi had beat PuMa in g2 or g3. He would be #1 in his group, and be seeded against Coca in the upper bracket. If he wins there, bam, a foreigner in the top 4. If he loses, no biggie, he drops down and plays NaDa, starting with a 2-0 extended series advantage. He can probably win that, meaning foreigner in top 5 and then face DRG for top 4.
Instead of course he got 2nd in his group, is seeded against Hero and loses, finishing 10th overall. I'm just trying to show how with just a little bit of extra luck/skill/magic many players could have fared much better, MLG isn't the most forgiving tournament.
The thing is that the skill gap has only grown since launch.At launch foreigners had pretty good chances against koreans. All after that has been a step back for foreigners
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Select is Korean, but not practicing in Korea - Moved to foreigner using my criteria. HuK is American/Canadian - Moved to foreigner using my criteria.
They must be BOTH of korean descent and living / practicing in korea.
That's... debatable... Huk not speaking the language might be enough of a barrier to classify him as a foreigner, but I think practicing in the oGs teamhouse and on the Korean ladder is more than enough to qualify him as Korean. He's definitely been in Korea long enough. In this latest MLG, really the highest placing foreigner was Sjow. (I don't know where Puma and Hero have been practicing, but their recent enough recruits by EG and Liquid that I think they'll still count as Korean for a while)
Also, I completely disagree that your stats for MLG shows any sign of "progress." All it shows is that the Koreans invited to Raleigh weren't as high caliber as previous invites, and yet they still dominated the show.
The quality of the Koreans that actually attend MLG has just gotten worse as a trend. If anything, the skill gap between the Korean scene and the rest of the world widened over time. The only foreigners who aren't being left in the dust are those practicing in Korea.
Bring over Line, GuineaPig, San, and Revival and it will be a totally different story. The Koreans aren't invulnerable, as proven by Tester, only the top Koreans are invulnerable. We have no chance against Bomber yet, but the low Code A caliber players are definitely beatable.
Honestly if idra can get out of the slump that he is he could place top 3 but he just makes stupid choices in game which cost him the game. Also I feel that HuK and Nani could be up there too esp with HuK being in GSL. Everyone just needs to play as hard as they do to get ready for the next MLG.
On August 30 2011 02:49 Dc_Starcraft wrote: Honestly if idra can get out of the slump that he is he could place top 3 but he just makes stupid choices in game which cost him the game. Also I feel that HuK and Nani could be up there too esp with HuK being in GSL. Everyone just needs to play as hard as they do to get ready for the next MLG.
Yea I saw two games of Idra where he overmade mutas and undermade banelings and lost twice the same way.
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is only going to widen. They practice more and as long as they are improving faster, foreigners will never catch up.
On August 30 2011 02:21 absalom86 wrote: I think Tester was solely responsible for lowering the win percentage for Koreans quite a lot this last MLG.
I agree completely. It would've been just as bad as Anaheim if any of the strongest Koreans had attended (Nestea, MVP, etc).
One thing that I find some comfort in is this: before Raleigh, I honestly thought that no one from code S could possibly do bad in a foreign tournament. Now I see that the weaker code S players don't destroy foreigners completely. That said, Ganzi didn't lose to foreigners in Anaheim and he's code A, so maybe Trickster is partcularly bad or was jetlagged, etc.
it is amazing Trickster stays in Code S for so long for how he has been playing. he is going down for sure as I do not see he stand a chance in the heavily stacked up&down
On August 30 2011 02:06 jj33 wrote: damnit again posted just your quote. sorry about that.
here is my post
and things like this open to discussion. His criteria is a double standard. that's the point.
HIS definition is wrong. pure and simple and you only seem to want to agree with him to skew the stats to help foreigners look better.
If we go by anybody's random definition without any open discussion, then I can make the most random stupid criteria and it's ok, because afterall it's MY own criteria. =]
I don't really think the Korean stats look better this way. If you go by nationality, you would for example have to include the 0-10 performance of Moonan in groupstage. If you go by the "trained in Korea"-stuff, you would have to include Jinro, who hasn't performed that well either. Or maybe even Idra and Haypro were included, if you would go that far back, at least they would have been included some months ago.. Going by this, I believe his criterias rather improve the Korean stats.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
For me as a viewer this korean dominance is a problem because i get less interested when players like Ganzi or Noblesse take part. I'm interested in the Top 15 koreans or so but not in the rest. Especially korean terrans bore me to death. Of course it's no solution to not let koreans participate, because in the end it's the foreigners duty to not get stomped and win stuff.
On August 30 2011 02:49 Dc_Starcraft wrote: Honestly if idra can get out of the slump that he is he could place top 3 but he just makes stupid choices in game which cost him the game. Also I feel that HuK and Nani could be up there too esp with HuK being in GSL. Everyone just needs to play as hard as they do to get ready for the next MLG.
Yea I saw two games of Idra where he overmade mutas and undermade banelings and lost twice the same way.
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is only going to widen. They practice more and as long as they are improving faster, foreigners will never catch up.
I beg to differ. This current generation of pros is probably screwed. However, they are building infrastructure for talented new players to be able to practice like Koreans. The eg houses, the reign house, The house tlo shares with other pros have all cropped up in the past year or so. The international SC2 scene has more potential because it can support more players. The lack of major Korean tournaments will drive more mid level Koreans to foreign teams I think, Allowing weaker players in the non-Korean scene to learn from them. Also, the win rate in pool play at least is lowered a lot by players like incontrol and machine who really shouldn't be there.
If you remove players that are regarded as undeserving in pool play (Players that have regularly underperformed in MLG pool play, I removed moonan, TLO, Haypro, incontrol and machine) You get a result of 35-14, which, while bad is still a lot closer
On August 30 2011 02:21 absalom86 wrote: I think Tester was solely responsible for lowering the win percentage for Koreans quite a lot this last MLG.
I agree completely. It would've been just as bad as Anaheim if any of the strongest Koreans had attended (Nestea, MVP, etc).
One thing that I find some comfort in is this: before Raleigh, I honestly thought that no one from code S could possibly do bad in a foreign tournament. Now I see that the weaker code S players don't destroy foreigners completely. That said, Ganzi didn't lose to foreigners in Anaheim and he's code A, so maybe Trickster is partcularly bad or was jetlagged, etc.
it is amazing Trickster stays in Code S for so long for how he has been playing. he is going down for sure as I do not see he stand a chance in the heavily stacked up&down
It's about time trickster gets knocked out of code s like fruit. I've never been impressed with trickster since GSL season 1 as I never saw anything special and great about his play.
There are some players that have managed to stay in code s for a while that aren't good at all like these players. Hopefully they get weeded out soon, but somehow ensnare gets lucky every season and manages to stay in code s.
On August 30 2011 02:49 Dc_Starcraft wrote: Honestly if idra can get out of the slump that he is he could place top 3 but he just makes stupid choices in game which cost him the game. Also I feel that HuK and Nani could be up there too esp with HuK being in GSL. Everyone just needs to play as hard as they do to get ready for the next MLG.
Yea I saw two games of Idra where he overmade mutas and undermade banelings and lost twice the same way.
The gap between Koreans and foreigners is only going to widen. They practice more and as long as they are improving faster, foreigners will never catch up.
I beg to differ. This current generation of pros is probably screwed. However, they are building infrastructure for talented new players to be able to practice like Koreans. The eg houses, the reign house, The house tlo shares with other pros have all cropped up in the past year or so. The international SC2 scene has more potential because it can support more players. The lack of major Korean tournaments will drive more mid level Koreans to foreign teams I think, Allowing weaker players in the non-Korean scene to learn from them. Also, the win rate in pool play at least is lowered a lot by players like incontrol and machine who really shouldn't be there.
If you remove players that are regarded as undeserving in pool play (Players that have regularly underperformed in MLG pool play, I removed moonan, TLO, Haypro, incontrol and machine) You get a result of 35-14, which, while bad is still a lot closer
The infrastructure development is nice but I think the driving force behind Korean success is the culture. I mean they even got the airline to sponsor their tournaments. That sounds pretty mainstream to me. They have their slots on TV and everything. I don't live in Korea but I guess being a progamer is viewed like any other profession. The same can't be said about the foreign scene. It is the building of the culture that is holding the foreign scene back.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
On August 30 2011 02:48 puzzl wrote: Bring over Line, GuineaPig, San, and Revival and it will be a totally different story. The Koreans aren't invulnerable, as proven by Tester, only the top Koreans are invulnerable. We have no chance against Bomber yet, but the low Code A caliber players are definitely beatable.
These players could very well rape foreigners easily, CoCa has "bad" GSL stats and still dominated at MLG. Sure his recent switch to Slayers may have improved his ZvT which was his worst match-up (because losing against NesTea, LosirA and Leenock in ZvZ doesn't mean that you are bad at it...) but still. No matter the korean (the ones in training house I mean) you invite, if they are in a team that is familiar with foreign tournaments and that they have had a good sleep, they will do well.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
I would like some1 to pull stats of mana vs koreans? I got the feeling he has the best record.
Excellent post. Really illuminates the situation at MLG. I can't see why everyone is overreacting and so bleak. With the exception of rain and possibly to a lesser extent boxeR and herO, the koreans in the top spots would still be formidable opponents even against the typical Koreans. People like to point out that Nestea, MVP, and MC would roll any MLG no matter what foreigner attends. Well, no shit they're the most likely candidates to roll through the gsl too. Nestea went undefeated last season.
The point I'm getting at is, we should be alarmed if low-tier to average Koreans start to dominate everyone. When Ensnare, anypro, fruitdealer, san, min, thebest, alive, etc are in our top spots then I think it's time to throw in the towel.
Not to mention the foreigners could've used much better representation. Would have loved to see incontrol, tlo, moonan, haypro, and machine traded for: Sen, Thorzain, Stephano, Dimaga, and mana. The only real top foreigners at this past mlg were huk and naniwa....maybe idra (not too sure anymore...).
edit: Also, despite all this I don't think we'll get a foreigner in the top 3 with only 2 more MLGs. Most of the really good EU players (where the majority of the good foreigners are) don't seem to want to come with the current system. Also, MLG is likely going to snag at least 3 top tier koreans for the national what with having 50k for first and all (we might see nestea finally :O!). Orlando will probably be about the same as Raleigh. :/
It's only because more protoss players are attending the tournament. With some exceptions of underleveled Korean players, protoss players will most likely be the spot foreigners can exploit unless there is a patch.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
I would like some1 to pull stats of mana vs koreans? I got the feeling he has the best record.
He has beaten Puma, Nada and Supernova, and has lost vs Zenio, Bomber, Boxer, MC, July. He probably has one of the best records, but it still isn't very good. The sample size still isn't very big compared to most people at MLG. Put it this way, if Mana was put into pool A instead of Incontrol, would he have done anything to stop Coca laughing his way to a 10-0? I don't think so. I can't see him beating any good Korean Zerg, and he looked pretty outclassed vs MC. His PvT is very good, but it seems that Koreans need to remember the thing they did which made colossus leave the matchup. I have no idea why zealot archon became the standard in Korea because if there is anything which is not bad vs ghosts, it is colossi. I'm sure if a Korean Terran knew Toss was going Colossi they could counter it amazingly easily, but they certainly don't show that knowledge when they are "surprised" by a colossus build (which is still the standard in EU/NA).
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Select is Korean, but not practicing in Korea - Moved to foreigner using my criteria. HuK is American/Canadian - Moved to foreigner using my criteria.
They must be BOTH of korean descent and living / practicing in korea.
I agree that you may be too subjective in your criteria. What length of time does a Korean need to live and play outside of Korea to be considered a Foreigner going forward? What if Puma or Hero moves out west to live for a bit and THEN wins a MLG down the line (this would be the same as Select winning). Does that win count as a Foreigner or Korean?? Obviously, they are Korean born and Korean trained.
Everyone's view of Select as a foreigner is just bias because that is most everyone's first introduction to him when he lived in the US already. Before that, he was a player living in Korea, just like Puma or Hero.
I definitely think we can have a top3 foreigner. And as many already has said I think HuK and Naniwa have very good chances to do this, but I will also put Thorzain up there. I missed him during this MLG and think he could have done very well.
It's great to see so much optimism in the OP, but the reality of the situation is much more bleak. The skill gap between foreigners and Koreans is going to get larger.
There are hundreds of Pumas playing an arguably dying game in Korea called BW. Once, not if, SC2 begins to become more accepted in Korea. The influx of awesome BW players that are eventually going to make the switch to SC2 will put the foreigner scene into the stone age.
I want foreigners to succeed as much as the next guy, but SC2 will eventually become what BW is today.
I know there is no community consensus on what constitutes a "korean" player. But the criteria used to identify korean players for the purposes of these statistics are pretty clearly in favour of manipulating the statistics in favour of forieign players.
I mean.. to be a Korean player you have to both be Korean AND living in Korea?
Personally I think it should be done EITHER on current residency OR on nationality.
I mean if you do it on both residency and nationality you could get some pretty weird results. For example, you could equally well say Huk does not qualify as a foreigner as he does not satisfy the critera of being BOTH foreign born AND residing in a foreign country.
Clearly without a community standard of what a Korean player is, statistics like these will always be somewhat controversial. In my opinion it would be better to keep it simple. However, the OPo does at least the OP does make it clear what the criteria are.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Agreed. Players like Stephano and Nerchio have beaten players like Thorzain and DeMuslim pretty handily in the past.
TvZ is a volatile matchup however and who knows how these players would fare against each other today.
The fact that they have to both be living in Korea and be of Korean descent kind of annoys me. I wouldn't of minded one or the other, but the fact that you used both is really aggravating for many different reasons.
First off, the reason people consider Koreans better doesn't really have to do anything with their ethnicity, although we like to joke about it that way.
It has to do with the fact that they live in practice in Korea. Practicing in Korea usually means you live in a team house with a bunch of other people playing Starcraft, so essentially you have people to keep you motivated and practicing at all times. Also, you have people to theorycraft with all the time and share hints, whether about mechanics or strategies. This is why the players coming from Korea destroy all the foreigners essentially.
So, honestly I don't mind you not counting Select as Korean, but the fact that people consider Huk a foreigner when they do these stats is just silly, how long has he been in Korea? Since like GSL season 2 when Jinro made his epic run?? So, the majority of his career he has been playing there, stop calling him a foreigner.
Right now, it's fine to consider Naniwa, Thorzain, Idra, Fenix, and really any other non-Korean playing/practicing in Korea a foreigner because of how long they've been there (except for Jinro). This is why I consider Rain a Korean still (correct me if I'm wrong, but he is living in the states I heard, but I could be wrong), he has only been living outside of Korea for a few months.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Agreed. Players like Stephano and Nerchio have beaten players like Thorzain and DeMuslim pretty handily in the past.
TvZ is a volatile matchup however and who knows how these players would fare against each other today.
I think TvZ past the early game is the least volatile matchup of all.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
Players like Socke and Sjow always get less credit because they don't beat the Koreans when they play against them. Considering there are 0 foreigners who consistently beat the Koreans, foreigner hopes are turned to the people that have never played them. At first, it was Kas and Happy, the 2 online Gods. Then, it turned out they were not even close to the Koreans either. Now, the focus is on the unproven ones again. But if they cannot take an EU only tournament or get over 90% win rate on ladder (Code B Korean Terrans have these win rates on foreign ladders), I believe we should still stick our hype with those who we know are able to win. Sen, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa.
so true pretty sure nerchio and stephano have gotten raped by every korean they've played against. at some point ppl need to drop the fanboyism and face reality
i think mc owned nerchio easily with terran? 0-3 vs puma, etc.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Agreed. Players like Stephano and Nerchio have beaten players like Thorzain and DeMuslim pretty handily in the past.
TvZ is a volatile matchup however and who knows how these players would fare against each other today.
I think TvZ past the early game is the least volatile matchup of all.
On August 30 2011 01:42 jj33 wrote: what the hell it only quoted you.
I'll just post here.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
simple logic
Your "simple" logic is broken.
If the requirement to be considered "Korean" is being Korean AND be living in Korea, a foreigner just has to fail one of these conditions; i.e. Not being Korean OR not be living in Korea.
It's not a double standard at all, and the conditions work fine.
I also don't agree with them though. For me it makes more sense to consider a player "Korean" if he/she has been training in Korea for over 6 months previous the last say, 3 week or a month.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Yeah Mana is pretty good at dodging Koreans. 2-0 Nada and Puma. Sup son?
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Just to nitpick, Nada made it out of groups, but he was defeated by Mana.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Agreed. Stephano and Nerchio aren't even favoured against players like Demuslim and Thorzain, let alone MVP and Bomber. I have little doubt in my mind that Koreans would dominate the EU players as well. Let's not forget that Koreans (and Huk) dominated Dreamhack and HSC3. IEM was also very easy for the finalists.
I my book Stephano and Nerchio are heavily favored against Demuslim, and even favored against Thorzain, because his TvZ seems to be his worst.
And Huk didn't make it out of the groups @ IEM and Assembly, and Nada didn't make it out of the groups in Assembly as well.
Just to nitpick, Nada made it out of groups, but he was defeated by Mana.
To be fair, Mana's PvT is prettttty good 2-0 Puma and Nada ezpz
only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
On August 30 2011 01:02 {ToT}ColmA wrote: a place in top6 is doable even thou highly unlikely, the top invites form korea will always beat the shit out of foreigners, no foreigner could touch drg bomber or coca and i dont see foreigners improve at any rate they would need to actually pull off some stunt
but who really cares, even thou slashers tears are delicious in the end the best player should win and thats whats happening in mlg so far
saw destiny beat bomber 2 months ago 2-1 ? : P lol
That's a pretty ignorant thought process, non-koreans just need to practice just as much. Koreans aren't born from the womb with a copy of SC2 in the hands of the parents, its all about dedication.
On August 30 2011 04:30 everytimee wrote: only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
agree agree agree
It's just that people newer to Starcraft aren't as familiar with the concept as we are, and thus the wounds hurt more...that and they enter more foreign stuff than just WCG now considering the globalization of the scene.
But yah, if the game had bw mechanics and understanding of builds/timings, catching up would turn from being improbable to impossible :O.
On the matter if a foreigner will place in top 3 this season...
Yes, I think it is fully possible. What I'm waiting for is a foreigner with great potential, someone like IdrA, HuK or Select, to start practicing hardcore, like 12 hours everyday with the sole purpose of placing top 3. I want to see someone get mad and do everything in their power to become "The Slayer of Koreans". I want them to study the Koreans who are coming (when they are announced) and know every single one of them like the back of his hand and have seamless builds planned out in every single match, covering every single variable. I think that's what it would take for it to happen.
On August 30 2011 02:31 [Agony]x90 wrote: When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans.
Thank God for this post. Seriously. This is a good part of what people don't understand and I'm glad someone took the time to write it.
On August 30 2011 01:02 {ToT}ColmA wrote: a place in top6 is doable even thou highly unlikely, the top invites form korea will always beat the shit out of foreigners, no foreigner could touch drg bomber or coca and i dont see foreigners improve at any rate they would need to actually pull off some stunt
but who really cares, even thou slashers tears are delicious in the end the best player should win and thats whats happening in mlg so far
saw destiny beat bomber 2 months ago 2-1 ? : P lol
That's a pretty ignorant thought process, non-koreans just need to practice just as much. Koreans aren't born from the womb with a copy of SC2 in the hands of the parents, its all about dedication.
massing a unit that is getting signifigantly nerfed against someone experiencing high latency who is playing some random foreigner, while Destiny's reputation is on the line isn't exactly proving anything.
The people voting yes are voting on hopes/dreams, because the evidence does not support this happening lol.
You have to count the number of foreigners capable of competing agaisnt the Korean players coming over for MLG. There are... 3 maybe 4.
Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Thorzain. Even then their odds of winning a series is probably a 1/4 chance. which means they will lose 3x as much as they win vs these players.
IDK i dont see a foreigner placing top 3 anytime soon in mlg now
You guys are getting so technical like you're pretending to use your brains. I consider anyone who lives in korea and travels to US to play in MLG a KOREAN. Huk is a korean and Idra is an ex-korean. You also have to take into consideration that the koreans that come over to play arent even that good. I'm not sure but I think the only reason MVP played in one was because it gave him a code S spot. The reason they don't invite ALL newb koreans like trickster is because they dont want boring games like what happened at NASL. They also invite some koreans because they have a huge fan base. koreans stealin all your tourney money lawl
Yeah sorry progress hasn't been made at all. The statistics really just depend on which Koreans happen to be invited and which ones end up trying to go through the open bracket.
On August 30 2011 02:31 [Agony]x90 wrote: When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans.
Thank God for this post. Seriously. This is a good part of what people don't understand and I'm glad someone took the time to write it.
Another thing that might matter is the Pro player per square mile. Korea has a lot more people playing starcraft per square mile which means its easier for large pro houses to get set up while players are still close enough to their family. Having pro players in same roof is a good thing since it provides some pressure to practice and also rapid exchange of ideas. In case of USA and europe this can't happen. Most teams tend to be split apart geographically which prevents effective practice and hence rise of skill.
On August 30 2011 04:44 rift wrote: only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
so true. and that's what people dont realize. foreigners will ALWAYS be worse than koreans. always. and theres nothing we can do about it, its just the way it is. accept it, please.
On August 30 2011 01:42 jj33 wrote: what the hell it only quoted you.
I'll just post here.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
simple logic
Your "simple" logic is broken.
If the requirement to be considered "Korean" is being Korean AND be living in Korea, a foreigner just has to fail one of these conditions; i.e. Not being Korean OR not be living in Korea.
It's not a double standard at all, and the conditions work fine.
I also don't agree with them though. For me it makes more sense to consider a player "Korean" if he/she has been training in Korea for over 6 months previous the last say, 3 week or a month.
There are at least three different ways people use the descriptor "Korean" (as opposed to "Foreigner") on TL: Korean nationality, Korean training, or as our OP used it, both.
Considering just group play in MLG this year (because those are the easiest numbers to put together): Korean nationality 93-41 69% win rate of matches Korean training 89-21 81% win rate of matches* Both 82-18 82% win rate of matches
(* counts Huk. If you want to add Naniwa as Korean trained just for Raleigh, or remove Rain for Raleigh since he's living in NY now, or both, it doesn't make an appreciable difference. If you did both, they'd exactly cancel out.)
So whether or not you agree with the OP's definition of Korean vs. Foreigner, he wasn't cherry-picking the definition that would make foreigners look best or worst. It's just about the same, whether or not Huk is "our foreign hope" or whether he now counts as Korean.
On August 30 2011 04:44 rift wrote: only the people who had no understanding of the pro brood war scene are suprised by this. I really believe if the game wasn't as volatile and easier mechanically the results would be even worse for foreigners.
so true. and that's what people dont realize. foreigners will ALWAYS be worse than koreans. always. and theres nothing we can do about it, its just the way it is. accept it, please.
Numbers-wise I think the comparison is something like this: current near-the-top Koreans at MLG have about an 80% win rate, though they are obviously playing each other. The chance of Flash Jaedong Bisu Stork or even any A-teamer in BW beating top foreigners (read: IdrA ret) was about 95% or higher, losing typically in short games (Jaedong vs Advokate). Only the Chinese could compete: PJ at WCG 2007 beating Savior 2-1 in macro games and his performance at WCG 09; LX - watch his games against Flash at WCG '10, he holds up impressively. Of course, the foreigner scene today is much larger/more competitive; but again, the game is different and so is the KR talent pool.
In other words: be happy that we can take games, period.
On August 30 2011 02:31 [Agony]x90 wrote: When it comes to the korean descent and living in korea, i think more appropriate would be born in Korea (or living there for a long time) and practicing 90 percent + of the time in Korea. But what the OP has is close enough.
The reason these hold true is because of two things, cultural upbringing and communication. I personally believe the Korean culture allows for a different mentality when it comes to playing these games. Consider their school system. They are forced to study and go to school for hours on end, 6 days of week. If they can sit still and mentally work at something for school, they'll have the same mentality when it comes to games. The other thing is language. If you are not born in Korea, chances are, you can't speak the language. One of the issues that Idra had in Korea was the lack of communication (or lack of ability to). Even if someone were to become "fluent", there is a very good chance that they will still not be able to communicate at the same exact level as the natives there. This is probably because there is also the element of culture in language as well. The words may come out right, but the meaning may be hidden in meanings that only make sense who grew up in Korea with Koreans.
Thank God for this post. Seriously. This is a good part of what people don't understand and I'm glad someone took the time to write it.
Another thing that might matter is the Pro player per square mile. Korea has a lot more people playing starcraft per square mile which means its easier for large pro houses to get set up while players are still close enough to their family. Having pro players in same roof is a good thing since it provides some pressure to practice and also rapid exchange of ideas. In case of USA and europe this can't happen. Most teams tend to be split apart geographically which prevents effective practice and hence rise of skill.
This, IMHO, is the biggest factor. You only improve by playing against people at the same level or better, and those improvements only spread by communication with people near the same level. And that is greatly enhanced by physical presence.
I think the only hope for Foreigner near-parity is if Blizzard (in software) or telecommunication companies (in hardware) manage to improve cross-ocean lag enough that the KR ladder can be merged with AM or EU or both, like with the NA/SA to AM merge.
On August 30 2011 05:08 Taug wrote: You guys are getting so technical like you're pretending to use your brains. I consider anyone who lives in korea and travels to US to play in MLG a KOREAN. Huk is a korean and Idra is an ex-korean. You also have to take into consideration that the koreans that come over to play arent even that good. I'm not sure but I think the only reason MVP played in one was because it gave him a code S spot. The reason they don't invite ALL newb koreans like trickster is because they dont want boring games like what happened at NASL. They also invite some koreans because they have a huge fan base. koreans stealin all your tourney money lawl
On August 30 2011 05:08 Taug wrote: You guys are getting so technical like you're pretending to use your brains. I consider anyone who lives in korea and travels to US to play in MLG a KOREAN. Huk is a korean and Idra is an ex-korean. You also have to take into consideration that the koreans that come over to play arent even that good. I'm not sure but I think the only reason MVP played in one was because it gave him a code S spot. The reason they don't invite ALL newb koreans like trickster is because they dont want boring games like what happened at NASL. They also invite some koreans because they have a huge fan base. koreans stealin all your tourney money lawl
MVP already was in code s
and trickster a noob ? really?
Yeah, this guy doesn't know what he is talking about at all...
I dont think foreigner will take top 3 next MLG. Maybe HuK/Naniwa with the combination of Korea practice and protoss buff coming? Interesting to see if Sjow can get a notch higher in Korea to, would make him a candidate as well.
I would however say that one of the important reason that foreigners is having a hard time because of which foreigners that have the pool slots. I mean TLO, Incontrol, Machine, Haypro, Moonan? Are any of those like top 30 foreigners?
Exchange those 5 players against say Stephano, Thorzain, Dimaga, Sen and Mana. Then I think we would have foreigner in top3 in some of the remaining MLG:s.
Course it depends a lot on what Korea sends also, if Korea would send their 8-10 top players I doubt it would happen still for a while.
A note also: Funny how so many persons here speaks about foreigners in a third person manner. I case you forgot we are the foreigners. "We" can not compete with the Koreans. You might wanne say "omg we suck so bad" rather then "omg foreigners suck so bad". Somehow I doubt that the people writing that foreigners sucks could do a better job.
MLG still lack most of the best European players like Mana, White-ra, Thorzian, nerchio, stephano, Kas, BratOK, Dimaga as well as Sen and all the Chinese players. I think it's more interesting to look at multiple tournaments over the coming months and see how the non-koreans are doing.
SjoW is the one to watch, he's been quietly becoming one of the best European players for months now. Also DeMuslim seems to be getting better and better. And of course Naniwa is going to become even more of a monster soon.
Its natural for the Korean players to have a huge edge in the first year of competitive play given that they all have their years of Brood War training regimes and practice to fall back on. Outside of Korea this is only just starting to materialise. We will get there! For now I will enjoy watching Koreans stomp all of our great hopes, revenge will come.
europeans aren't going to change korean dominance either. When all the best and most experience players live that close together and speak the same language it will alway produce better results than the foreigners scattered about many countries. Even if foreign teamhouses are formed there is just more experience, skill, motivation, and dedication with the korean players.
On August 30 2011 06:10 farnham wrote: we had a gsl top 4 finish from jinro twotimes in a row
foreigners can obviously do it if they try
unfortunately jinro has been in a slump for the last 6 month but man he was beastly up until febuary / march
Jinro started to slump around the time where the maps were balanced (jungle basin removed, close spawns removed, no bunkers/pylons on ramps for free blocks)
Foreigners taking top 3 in the future won't depend on the foreigners, but I think will depend more on which Koreans are coming. If they decide to invite 1-2 A-S class players, and about 4 B-Class players, foreigners will still fail to take top 3. It will be impossible for them to topple the S-Class players (Nestea, MVP, etc) and they can't even seem to beat A-class players (MMA, DRG). B-Class players are still even above the top foreigners. Just look at how Hero did, he is a solid player, but he hasn't done anything notable in GSTL or GSL. Yet he ripped through the open bracket and placed 6th, ahead of top foreigners such as Huk. So looking at the giant skill gap, I'd say there's very low chances of foreigners getting top 3 at MLG in the next year or so.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Yeah Mana is pretty good at dodging Koreans. 2-0 Nada and Puma. Sup son?
How many Koreans has Mana played as a percentage of his overall games? He has close to 700 games in his TLPD. I'd call that dodging. How about Naniwa? And Naniwa's record vs MC is way better than Mana's 0-3. Naniwa's also played Coca, MMA, DRG, Rain, Moon and Losira.
I think if KiWiKaKi didn't mess up that one force field vs Puma's 1-1-1 he would have had a fighting chance at top 3 this mlg because he would not have to face herO in PvP (his weakest matchup vs hero's best)
The way I see it the players race has nothing to do with skill. When comparing foreigners to Koreans I view anyone living in a team house and practicing insane amounts while living in Korea to be Korean. Like Huk for example. He is a product of KOREAN training in a KOREAN environment. His success can attributed to living in Korea and he is a byproduct of Korean training. Huk and players like him represent the Korean scene, not the foreign scene. As a counter example Select represents the foreign scene despite being born in Korea since a very large portion of this training is on the NA server.
TL;DR. You don't have to be Korean to play like them. Huk would never have made it this far being in NA therefor his success can be attributed to the Korean system.
Screw every single one of you who lives outside of korea and voted no. I am sure there are tons of you. Have some faith people........HuK, Nani, Thorzain? Kiwi, Select, Sjow, Sheth, i guarantee you one of these will place top 3 this year. QUOTE ME BRO QUOTE ME!!
On August 30 2011 01:42 jj33 wrote: what the hell it only quoted you.
I'll just post here.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
simple logic
Your "simple" logic is broken.
If the requirement to be considered "Korean" is being Korean AND be living in Korea, a foreigner just has to fail one of these conditions; i.e. Not being Korean OR not be living in Korea.
It's not a double standard at all, and the conditions work fine.
I also don't agree with them though. For me it makes more sense to consider a player "Korean" if he/she has been training in Korea for over 6 months previous the last say, 3 week or a month.
There are at least three different ways people use the descriptor "Korean" (as opposed to "Foreigner") on TL: Korean nationality, Korean training, or as our OP used it, both.
Considering just group play in MLG this year (because those are the easiest numbers to put together): Korean nationality 93-41 69% win rate of matches Korean training 89-21 81% win rate of matches* Both 82-18 82% win rate of matches
(* counts Huk. If you want to add Naniwa as Korean trained just for Raleigh, or remove Rain for Raleigh since he's living in NY now, or both, it doesn't make an appreciable difference. If you did both, they'd exactly cancel out.)
So whether or not you agree with the OP's definition of Korean vs. Foreigner, he wasn't cherry-picking the definition that would make foreigners look best or worst. It's just about the same, whether or not Huk is "our foreign hope" or whether he now counts as Korean.
Of course, I wasn't addressing that. Just clarifying OP was not applying "double standards" to the player list.
Your overall conclusion that foreigners are doing better is wrong imo, what we have seen is a few players (trickster, choya) do poorly and lower the stats, butthe korean terran and zerg still roflstomp through.
Also, if the Europeans are soooo good, why don't they just breeze through the open bracket (which is joke for Koreans as seen by Puma, Noblesse, July and Ganzi), and 5-0 or 4-1 their group? Naniwa is the only Euro to do this. I know not all teams want to send their players but surely that is also an indication that perhaps they just won't place high enough.
On August 30 2011 01:23 NoobSh1t wrote: MLG doesn't have all the best foreigners there anyways. If you look to your right you'll see that out of the top 5 foreigners with the highest ELO none of them attended MLG Raleigh. It isn't worth it for most newcomers who have to go through the open bracket for just a 5000$ 1st place prize. Guys like Stephano, Mana, Sen, Thorzain can compete with Koreans yet none of them usually attend MLG. I'm not saying that it won't be a Korean top 3 but maybe not Korean top 6.
This. You have two of the top 3 Koreans on TLPD but none of the top 5 foreigners, is it really that surprising that the best Koreans roll less good foreigners. Though not to say that the Koreans wouldn't win anyway, but for instance Nada and Huk (both code S) have struggled in recent european tournaments but did a lot better at MLG.
International TLPD is very flawed. The "best" foreign players are essentially the best Korean dodgers. You have a bunch of overrated EU minor cup superstars padding their points against other overrated EU minor cup superstars. Then you have players like Naniwa whose ELO is getting destroyed playing a lot of 0-0 Code S Koreans on their first international tournament. Or do you really think players like Goody are better than Naniwa?
Yeah Mana is pretty good at dodging Koreans. 2-0 Nada and Puma. Sup son?
How many Koreans has Mana played as a percentage of his overall games? He has close to 700 games in his TLPD. I'd call that dodging. How about Naniwa? And Naniwa's record vs MC is way better than Mana's 0-3. Naniwa's also played Coca, MMA, DRG, Rain, Moon and Losira.
Mana actually has a losing record vs Koreans, Puma, Nada and Supernova are the only he's beaten. People just like to cherry pick. People cite Mana 2:0 Puma as proof that his PvT is the best in the world, when on that same day, MC 2:0d Puma aswell on KotH. We all know who won the tournament in the end. Kiwi beat Nada as well, why doesn't he get more hype?
I sense a Korean Top 8 at Orlando... coL.MVP are gonna probably be sending players like guineapig and keen. Hell even Noblesse did well at MLG. All I want is MC though he makes all Live events AWESOME!
When Sc2 came out, my initial prediction (even though its not as skill intense as Brood War), was that it would take 1 year for white people and koreans to be 100 percent segregated. I underestimated this timeframe a bit, but its pretty much getting to the point where they shouldn't even be playing together. I'd say in another year there will be a lot more Major Tourneys where koreans aren't invited. They are only invited now still because people want to see the best players, but you might as well just bench all the white people lol.
On August 30 2011 01:42 jj33 wrote: what the hell it only quoted you.
I'll just post here.
It's a double standard to say huk is a foreigner and select is a foreigner.
If the requirement to be korean is live in korea and be of korean descent, then the req of being a foreigner should be to be of foreign descent and live outside of korea.
Huk only fulfills 1 of those.
either select is korean and huk foreigner or huk is a korean as well.
simple logic
Your "simple" logic is broken.
If the requirement to be considered "Korean" is being Korean AND be living in Korea, a foreigner just has to fail one of these conditions; i.e. Not being Korean OR not be living in Korea.
It's not a double standard at all, and the conditions work fine.
I also don't agree with them though. For me it makes more sense to consider a player "Korean" if he/she has been training in Korea for over 6 months previous the last say, 3 week or a month.
There are at least three different ways people use the descriptor "Korean" (as opposed to "Foreigner") on TL: Korean nationality, Korean training, or as our OP used it, both.
Considering just group play in MLG this year (because those are the easiest numbers to put together): Korean nationality 93-41 69% win rate of matches Korean training 89-21 81% win rate of matches* Both 82-18 82% win rate of matches
(* counts Huk. If you want to add Naniwa as Korean trained just for Raleigh, or remove Rain for Raleigh since he's living in NY now, or both, it doesn't make an appreciable difference. If you did both, they'd exactly cancel out.)
So whether or not you agree with the OP's definition of Korean vs. Foreigner, he wasn't cherry-picking the definition that would make foreigners look best or worst. It's just about the same, whether or not Huk is "our foreign hope" or whether he now counts as Korean.
Of course, I wasn't addressing that. Just clarifying OP was not applying "double standards" to the player list.
Sorry, didn't mean to say that you were doing that, yours was just the latest post discussing what definition of "Korean" makes most sense. There were other posts earlier in the thread, though, that did accuse the OP of cherry-picking the definition that made "foreigners" look best.
To follow up on my point, wait for some more real Broodwar gamers to swap over.
Literally no good (by top pro terms) BroodWar pro has swapped over. The koreans dominating now were B-teamers.. not even A teamers, let alone S class. As more REAL pros swap over the poor white people have literally not chance in hell at winning any joint event ever.
EDIT: dont reference aging gamers like Boxer or Nada, they couldn't compete with current pros at all.
When Sc2 came out, my initial prediction (even though its not as skill intense as Brood War), was that it would take 1 year for white people and koreans to be 100 percent segregated. I underestimated this timeframe a bit, but its pretty much getting to the point where they shouldn't even be playing together. I'd say in another year there will be a lot more Major Tourneys where koreans aren't invited. They are only invited now still because people want to see the best players, but you might as well just bench all the white people lol.
I don't know about that, some foreigners are showing a lot of potential currently (Mana/SeleCT/Kiwikaki/Ret) and some have already proven to be on par with most Koreans (Naniwa/Huk/Thorzain). Although several foreigners are definitely steadily falling behind, I don't think they all will as there are very motivated foreign players out there that can and do train as hard as the Koreans do.
On August 30 2011 06:30 Pufftrees wrote: When Sc2 came out, my initial prediction (even though its not as skill intense as Brood War), was that it would take 1 year for white people and koreans to be 100 percent segregated. I underestimated this timeframe a bit, but its pretty much getting to the point where they shouldn't even be playing together. I'd say in another year there will be a lot more Major Tourneys where koreans aren't invited. They are only invited now still because people want to see the best players, but you might as well just bench all the white people lol.
The thing is, that can't happen because the Korean scene needs international tournaments to live. The GSL isn't enough for them to be insular.
On August 30 2011 06:21 waffleduck wrote: The way I see it the players race has nothing to do with skill. When comparing foreigners to Koreans I view anyone living in a team house and practicing insane amounts while living in Korea to be Korean. Like Huk for example. He is a product of KOREAN training in a KOREAN environment. His success can attributed to living in Korea and he is a byproduct of Korean training. Huk and players like him represent the Korean scene, not the foreign scene. As a counter example Select represents the foreign scene despite being born in Korea since a very large portion of this training is on the NA server.
TL;DR. You don't have to be Korean to play like them. Huk would never have made it this far being in NA therefor his success can be attributed to the Korean system.
What about players living in Korea but practicing foreigner hours like Trickster?
On August 30 2011 01:01 scarymeerkat wrote: good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once...
a set is match.
I think game/series would be less ambiguous.
Finally, something that sounds right and should be used more. I've been so confused by all the set, match, game,....
On August 30 2011 06:40 andrewlt wrote: What about players living in Korea but practicing foreigner hours like Trickster?
They're still practicing against better players. Practicing with people in the StarTale house isn't at all comparable to grinding the NA ladder or practicing with players like IdrA, Axslav, Lz, TLO. HayprO, etc.
HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
On August 30 2011 06:40 andrewlt wrote: What about players living in Korea but practicing foreigner hours like Trickster?
They're still practicing against better players. Practicing with people in the StarTale house isn't at all comparable to grinding the NA ladder or practicing with players like IdrA, Axslav, Lz, TLO. HayprO, etc.
His results, though, show that foreigners can beat Koreans who practice as much while imbibing as much alcohol as they do. Kinda funny that some people want Fruitdealer to be invited next, but for all the wrong reasons.
i don't think foreigners have much progress at all, it seems like Korean teams can send anyone and they win, if mvp,mc,nestea etc all came to mlg it would be even worse.
On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
same applies to select vice versa...yet people tend to side him with the foreigners.
serious facepalm when people call what country they represent depending on what server they play on....
Just so everyone knows/understands this, the divide between Korean skill levels and foreigners have actually been getting worse. So don't be expecting a foreigner to get into the top3, or even top6 for that matter based purely upon skill.
Too add to that, Koreans have really been gaining an interest in foreign tournaments as anyone can tell. Each MLG there seems to be more and more Koreans there on their own(not part of the exchange program). So, if the trend continues and more Koreans began to show up you can be certain they will consistently make it through the open bracket, and eventually start to be placed in the group play based on merit and not just the exchange program; this is already relevant for players like DRG and Rain who this was their second MLG and already secured group play spots.
As long as the Koreans continue to show up in the numbers they have been, you can rest assured that no foreigner will claim a top3, let alone top 6 place.
On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
same applies to select vice versa...yet people tend to side him with the foreigners.
serious facepalm when people call what country they represent depending on what server they play on....
I don't see how it is serious facepalm tbh. We all know its not the being korean that makes them so good, it is simply the practice regime over there. Lets say Huk wins he next MLG, what does that proof? That foreigners can win against koreans or that the korean practice regime works?
72% 80% 76% on 100games are NOT statical evidence of progress being made they could all have a true ratio of 75% if infinity # of games were made and therefore indicate no progress. Also don't forget this is not the same players from one mlg to the next.
Though it does not indicates it's stalling or getting worse. It indicates nothing actually.
Now I let you discuss which you think are better, if foreigners have any hope or what.
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
Here's my criteria.
In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 1. Both your biological parents must be Koreans. 2. Both your non-biological parents (if applicable) must be Koreans. 3. You must be born in Korea. 4. You must have either finished your army duty or are planning on completing it before March 14, 2021. 5. You must be fond of Kimchi. 6. You must be fluent in Korean language. 7. You must show zealous patriotism toward South Korea. 8. You must have a Korean Windows installed on your computer. 9. You must belong to a Korean starcraft 2 organization and NOT a foreign organization. 10. You must not post on a website named "Team Liquid" 11. You must NOT be a "White Guy" 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.
According to this criteria, there were only 4 Koreans in MLG Raleigh: Moonan, iNcontroL, HayprO, TLO.
Back to seriously answering the OP, top 6 is definitely doable and it should have been quite doable for MLG Raleigh although things didn't turn out that way. It will obviously depend on which Koreans get invited though. When I heard of the names of Koreans coming to MLG Raleigh, I certainly didn't expect them to perform as well as the last group of Koreans who came to Anaheim.
Top 3, I imagine, would be a bit difficult, but that again depends a lot on who is coming from Korea.
On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
By this logic Select's wins should be excluded from the list. The thing is that Huk is training more than a half year in a Korean team house, so as a player he is equal to Koreans. He was even listed as a Korean invite at IEM. Thats why his wins over Koreans doesn't help foreigners at all...
On August 30 2011 01:22 farnham wrote: why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?)
Simple answer: Select does not live and train in Korea, Rain does. Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want.
rain is living in usa afaik (studying or some shit)
Rain only moved recently. I'd he's still considered a Korean until maybe a year later when his TSL training starts to go away.
He only moved a few months ago so he has his Korean training still fresh with him (it's like if you exercise by running 5 miles a day or w/e. If you stop exercising/running 5 miles a day for only 2-3 months you're still probably in better shape than most. It isn't until 6+ months or so when you start to lose all that training [if you don't continue training that is]).
(Also Rain is owning it up on the NA ladder. His ladder account is "BcuzofPros" or something like that and he has a 90% win ratio and is currently 4th in grand master. Will probably be 1st soon. He's about 100 wins to 10 losses).
Though I hope Rain isn't trying to practice by laddering (laddering isn't the best practice)..
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
Here's my criteria.
In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 1. Both your biological parents must be Koreans. 2. Both your non-biological parents (if applicable) must be Koreans. 3. You must be born in Korea. 4. You must have either finished your army duty or are planning on completing it before March 14, 2021. 5. You must be fond of Kimchi. 6. You must be fluent in Korean language. 7. You must show zealous patriotism toward South Korea. 8. You must have a Korean Windows installed on your computer. 9. You must belong to a Korean starcraft 2 organization and NOT a foreign organization. 10. You must not post on a website named "Team Liquid" 11. You must NOT be a "White Guy" 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.
According to this criteria, there were only 4 Koreans in MLG Raleigh: Moonan, iNcontroL, HayprO, TLO.
Back to seriously answering the OP, top 6 is definitely doable and it should have been quite doable for MLG Raleigh although things didn't turn out that way. It will obviously depend on which Koreans get invited though. When I heard of the names of Koreans coming to MLG Raleigh, I certainly didn't expect them to perform as well as the last group of Koreans who came to Anaheim.
Top 3, I imagine, would be a bit difficult, but that again depends a lot on who is coming from Korea.
That makes Mr.Chae foreigner. Seriously, there are so many korean who uses TL.
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
Here's my criteria.
In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.
Good criteria.
To be considered a Korean you must be able to successfully do this anytime you want (with SC1 or SC2):
On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
same applies to select vice versa...yet people tend to side him with the foreigners.
serious facepalm when people call what country they represent depending on what server they play on....
I don't see how it is serious facepalm tbh. We all know its not the being korean that makes them so good, it is simply the practice regime over there. Lets say Huk wins he next MLG, what does that proof? That foreigners can win against koreans or that the korean practice regime works?
korean practice regime, their knowhow, environment, whatever it is, it works.
i'm just saying, you wouldn't call robinho italian because he plays in ac milan or c.ronaldo and messi spanish for playing in la liga.
Kiwikaki came insanely close to guaranteed top 6 and possibly better. His series vs Puma was insanely close, and if he won, he would have won his group.
sjow will get top 3 soon im calling it he looked pretty sick this mlg. Also drewbie will pull a jinro and pwn everyone after his training in the mvp house
I think it is more about infrastructure and the way that Europe and the U.S. are so spaced out compared to Seoul, SK. I know this was brought up recently, but the more spread out everyone is, then harder it is to get together and talk strategy while you eat breakfast lunch and dinner. Just imagine every foreign team being withing 30-50 miles of each other, had blazing speed internet and there wasn't a social stigma around the game. We'd see a completely different scene.
Either way, I said that we would see a top 3 foreign player soon, someone is going to come out and crush some faces. Naniwa, Huk, maybe even IdrA if he gets his mind in the right spot. I haven't given up yet!
On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
same applies to select vice versa...yet people tend to side him with the foreigners.
serious facepalm when people call what country they represent depending on what server they play on....
I don't see how it is serious facepalm tbh. We all know its not the being korean that makes them so good, it is simply the practice regime over there. Lets say Huk wins he next MLG, what does that proof? That foreigners can win against koreans or that the korean practice regime works?
korean practice regime, their knowhow, environment, whatever it is, it works.
i'm just saying, you wouldn't call robinho italian because he plays in ac milan or c.ronaldo and messi spanish for playing in la liga.
yet, this is what people are doing.
Ppl are also using koreans that are outside korea (aka select) and count them as foreigners. either you make the rules fair or there are no rules and everyone can yell what they want so there is chaos.
Why do people keep mentioning Idra as some kind of top foreigner that we can expect to win soon? When was the last time he didnt disappoint? Its becoming so painfully obvious that no foreigner except huk (guess why?) stands a snowballs chance against koreans. sure there are lots of foreigners who can take games and even sets against koreans but not with consistency.
Stop looking at individual players and trying to decide whether they are "Korean" or "foreign".
The distinction should be based on the two separate scenes. You have a Korean scene and a foreigner scene. If someone is living and training in Korea, that person is part of the Korean scene, regardless of nationality. The same applies to the foreign scene. For example, SeleCT is Korean, but he is living in NA and mostly training with other NA pros, so I consider him to be part of the foreign scene. Huk, on the other hand, is most definitely a foreigner by definition, but at this point he represents the Korean scene.
Things start to get a little mucky when people like Naniwa, Thorzain, Sase, etc move to Korea to train, but if they stay there long enough I'd consider lumping them into the Korean scene as well.
You have to take into consideration the level of quality korean players at Raleigh compared to the other MLGs. Clearly there were more elite koreans in the previous MLGs. Take out shit players like Trickster and take a look at the numbers again. There wasnt any progress. If anything it got even worse because at least Idra medaled at Columbus with a 4th place finish.
On August 30 2011 08:05 gozima wrote: Stop looking at individual players and trying to decide whether they are "Korean" or "foreign".
The distinction should be based on the two separate scenes. You have a Korean scene and a foreigner scene. If someone is living and training in Korea, that person is part of the Korean scene, regardless of nationality. The same applies to the foreign scene. For example, SeleCT is Korean, but he is living in NA and mostly training with other NA pros, so I consider him to be part of the foreign scene. Huk, on the other hand, is most definitely a foreigner by definition, but at this point he represents the Korean scene.
Things start to get a little mucky when people like Naniwa, Thorzain, Sase, etc move to Korea to train, but if they stay there long enough I'd consider lumping them into the Korean scene as well.
You would think most people would realize this simple logic. They blindly believe what they want to believe because it suits them. Nevermind that the actual players themselves clearly say what they are. Like Huk saying that he's a korean player but people refuse to accept this.
You have to look at HuK, and Naniwa, Naniwa is just going to korea and showed tons of potential in MLG, and HuK even while travelling something like twice around the world in the last month placed 7th twice, and thats because every korean happens to be Terran as always, and eventually a protoss is going to lose to a terran, just by 1-1-1 alone if nothing else. The koreans are boring to watch tbh, and are nothing special imo, they get there on hardwork though and you have to admire them for that, but look at the foreginers like HuK and Naniwa, who put in so much time for practice and it shows when they play. HuK will win gsl this year, no doubt in my mind. And i guarentee at next mlg HuK, nani, incontrol, Idra, demuslim, and tyler. They will all place very high, just because of their work effort. Incontrol gets way too much crap talked about him when he said before mlg even started on his twitter that he was on a tilt even on ladder, and you have to give the eg house a chance and other foreigners more time, drewbie will also do fairly well im certain after his return
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
yeah it's a doublestandard and inconsistent. you can't be like 'a player is of a nationality if he was born there and trains there' and then turn around and call huk a foreigner when he doesn't fit your own criteria.
exactly..
it's a double standard, apparently some people need to have it spelled out for them.
Okay, I think I see how you're viewing it differently than everyone else. Huk fits his classification as a foreigner because Huk is not Korean born. In order to be KR, by OP's definition, you must be BOTH born in Korea and currently training there.
What the OP is saying is that two things are needed to be classed as a Korean:
1. You must be born in Korea 2. You must be training in Korea
Anybody who has both these things is Korean. Anyone has just one, or zero, of those two is classed as foreigner.
So: 1+2 = KR Just #1 = Foreigner Just #2 = Foreigner Neither #1 or #2 = Foreigner
HuK therefore in a foreigner. He meets category 2, but not category one. Since he only meets one of the two requirements he falls into the class of foreigner, since you need both to be classed as Korean.
Select is also a foreigner. He meets category 1, but not category two. Since he only meets one of the two requirements and both are needed to be classed Korean, he is considered a foreigner.
On August 30 2011 08:05 gozima wrote: Stop looking at individual players and trying to decide whether they are "Korean" or "foreign".
The distinction should be based on the two separate scenes. You have a Korean scene and a foreigner scene. If someone is living and training in Korea, that person is part of the Korean scene, regardless of nationality. The same applies to the foreign scene. For example, SeleCT is Korean, but he is living in NA and mostly training with other NA pros, so I consider him to be part of the foreign scene. Huk, on the other hand, is most definitely a foreigner by definition, but at this point he represents the Korean scene.
Things start to get a little mucky when people like Naniwa, Thorzain, Sase, etc move to Korea to train, but if they stay there long enough I'd consider lumping them into the Korean scene as well.
You would think most people would realize this simple logic. They blindly believe what they want to believe because it suits them. Nevermind that the actual players themselves clearly say what they are. Like Huk saying that he's a korean player but people refuse to accept this.
Haha, Huk really said that? Well that kinda destroys a lot of opinions here.
I think that the whole point of this thread is to compare figures about foreigners stats vs koreans before and after the mlg exchange program. Arguing whether to call foreigners in Korea koreans or not has no point imo. The fact is that what this stats are showing is that Korean practice regime works, and is not just that only koreans are good at this game. At least HuK is kinda showing that.
We already know that top foreigners can beat A/B/mid S Koreans. If Huk maintains his current skill level he most likely will place top 3 sooner rather than later, and it won't have any huge implications. Despite attempts to frame Huk as the underdog against Moon just because of his nationality, I think most people saw Dreamhack for what it was: a code S player winning. Not a hugely unexpected outcome.
Now if someone like Incontrol or Moonan got top 3, that would be quite interesting.
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
yeah it's a doublestandard and inconsistent. you can't be like 'a player is of a nationality if he was born there and trains there' and then turn around and call huk a foreigner when he doesn't fit your own criteria.
exactly..
it's a double standard, apparently some people need to have it spelled out for them.
Okay, I think I see how you're viewing it differently than everyone else. Huk fits his classification as a foreigner because Huk is not Korean born. In order to be KR, by OP's definition, you must be BOTH born in Korea and currently training there.
What the OP is saying is that two things are needed to be classed as a Korean:
1. You must be born in Korea 2. You must be training in Korea
Anybody who has both these things is Korean. Anyone has just one, or zero, of those two is classed as foreigner.
So: 1+2 = KR Just #1 = Foreigner Just #2 = Foreigner Neither #1 or #2 = Foreigner
HuK therefore in a foreigner. He meets category 2, but not category one. Since he only meets one of the two requirements he falls into the class of foreigner, since you need both to be classed as Korean.
Select is also a foreigner. He meets category 1, but not category two. Since he only meets one of the two requirements and both are needed to be classed Korean, he is considered a foreigner.
This makes perfect sense. OP is so smart, everywhere I go I will use his analysis on what it is to be truly korean and better than everyone else.
The koreans have been dominating the MLGs, but some progress is being made. The overall W/L ratio vs foreigners dropped to 72% during this last MLG and Koreans dropped a total of 9 sets to foreigners.
Terrible statistics analysis and conclusion. Didn't take into account of standard deviations and outside variables. The difference in your % analysis from all 3 MLGs are within 4% of each other, that is too small of a difference to draw any big conclusion.
Also, you realize the biggest factor at this MLG that attributed to foreigners seemingly doing better is more to do with the fact that the quality of the Koreans sent here this time is arguably lower than the previous two, as well as the champion from the last one did not return this time.
Oh and, look at your own analysis, Korean took top 3 with only 5 there the first time, that is 3/5 = 60% of the top spots taken. They then took 6/8 the next two MLG, thats 75% of the top spots taken. Seems to me their domination went up. Woot, I can make terrible statistical conclusions too.
On August 30 2011 07:34 chaopow wrote: Kiwikaki came insanely close to guaranteed top 6 and possibly better. His series vs Puma was insanely close, and if he won, he would have won his group.
On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
i think the scene from where u originated from makes things ez. its the first impressionw e have of them thats why i always view select and huk as NA players. same with Rain, i see him as a korean player. even if he moves to US i will consider him a korean player since that is where he started.
On August 30 2011 03:47 gozima wrote: It's great to see so much optimism in the OP, but the reality of the situation is much more bleak. The skill gap between foreigners and Koreans is going to get larger.
There are hundreds of Pumas playing an arguably dying game in Korea called BW. Once, not if, SC2 begins to become more accepted in Korea. The influx of awesome BW players that are eventually going to make the switch to SC2 will put the foreigner scene into the stone age.
I want foreigners to succeed as much as the next guy, but SC2 will eventually become what BW is today.
I loled @ stone age. Although I do not think the situation will be that dire, but it is true that unless the foreigners start chasing the Koreans with all their might, they will never catch up.
Everyone reading this thread must be interested in competitive Starcraft (esports). If you are, please go youtube "Nal_Ra old boy" vids NOW which have been graciously subtitled by Teamliquid. You will then understand the level of dedication, passion, talent and hard work needed to be the best.
On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
Here's my criteria.
In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 1. Both your biological parents must be Koreans. 2. Both your non-biological parents (if applicable) must be Koreans. 3. You must be born in Korea. 4. You must have either finished your army duty or are planning on completing it before March 14, 2021. 5. You must be fond of Kimchi. 6. You must be fluent in Korean language. 7. You must show zealous patriotism toward South Korea. 8. You must have a Korean Windows installed on your computer. 9. You must belong to a Korean starcraft 2 organization and NOT a foreign organization. 10. You must not post on a website named "Team Liquid" 11. You must NOT be a "White Guy" 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.
According to this criteria, there were only 4 Koreans in MLG Raleigh: Moonan, iNcontroL, HayprO, TLO.
Back to seriously answering the OP, top 6 is definitely doable and it should have been quite doable for MLG Raleigh although things didn't turn out that way. It will obviously depend on which Koreans get invited though. When I heard of the names of Koreans coming to MLG Raleigh, I certainly didn't expect them to perform as well as the last group of Koreans who came to Anaheim.
Top 3, I imagine, would be a bit difficult, but that again depends a lot on who is coming from Korea.
That makes Mr.Chae foreigner. Seriously, there are so many korean who uses TL.
Simple Answer: Mr. Chae and other "Korean" TL posters are not really Koreans. I know that they've been stuffing themselves with cheeseburgers and fries every other night. Mr. Chae's Korean Aura has dropped below 9,000 since February 11, 2011.
Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want.
On August 30 2011 00:49 CptGrackSparrow wrote: Koreans vs. White Guys
On August 30 2011 00:49 CptGrackSparrow wrote: SeleCT
??????
On topic; Koreans just seem to put the effort in. I'm not saying foreigners (not "white-guys" as your title describes) don't put effort in, but the drive to put in ~12 hours practice in a day is much more prevalent in the Korean scene and hence as a whole they get better. This then snowballs with them being better players and practicing against each other, meaning they improve at a faster rate than if they were playing against lower skill opponents i.e. their training is more efficient.
In order for foreigners to catch up, we'll probably need to start sending a lot more people to Korea to practice in Korean pro houses by Korean schedules against Korean pros, or else sooner or later we'll be left in the dust, skill-wise.
On August 30 2011 03:47 gozima wrote: It's great to see so much optimism in the OP, but the reality of the situation is much more bleak. The skill gap between foreigners and Koreans is going to get larger.
There are hundreds of Pumas playing an arguably dying game in Korea called BW. Once, not if, SC2 begins to become more accepted in Korea. The influx of awesome BW players that are eventually going to make the switch to SC2 will put the foreigner scene into the stone age.
I want foreigners to succeed as much as the next guy, but SC2 will eventually become what BW is today.
A lot of BW progamers will simply quit progaming when it falls apart. GSL and international events alone are not enough to support that quantity of players, A-teamers earning 5 to 6 digit salaries and prize money--though B-teamers get next to nothing, which is why they switched! Furthermore, the infrastructure of BW teams, sponsored by corporations like Samsung and Korea Telecom, could vanish. GSL is artificially supported within Korea now through Blizzard, not spectator interest - disregarding foreigner money GomTV is generating through online viewership.
Since MBCGame is going, half of esports disappears in Korea. The system is structured completely different than mostly disconnected international events sponsored by different groups. In Korea the system relies on TV viewers, most of which who don't even play, and the aforementioned corporate sponsors to fund it all.
Example: with Flash's $200,000 yearly salary, plus incentives, he has no reason enter the Starcraft 2 GSL/International system, and if/when BW dies he will cease playing unless that same BW infrastructure of teams and television channels (one of which is folding) moves directly into Star2. The game may prove to be unsuccessful there as well, and if BW was dying, how could SC2 do any better?
This rant was somewhat unrelated but is extremely important regarding any imagined shift in the Korean talent pool to SC2's completely different infrastructure.