I want to talk a little bit about the new unit they've shown for Heart of the Swarm, the Swarm Host.
This is the Swarm Host in action.
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
the broodlord and infestor are probably the two zerg units i like the most to use because they are fun, so i wouldn't mind having another unit that works in a similar way but has a different utility
I'ts not same role as infestor. You come near opponent base and burrow in range few of them and they will attack non-stop all the time forcing opponent to do something about it. But yeah there are little similarities.
I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
To me they just launch the locusts way too slow. That terran could easily just move the tanks forward a little bit and scan to eliminate the swarm hosts. The terran has plenty of time in between volleys to get up there and deal with them.
On October 24 2011 23:51 jeeeeohn wrote: I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
I don't see them being that useful on their own like in the video but with a few units behind or maybe a couple of infestors for fungal that seems pretty scary to me.
i do not see any use for that unit. In that video there are 9 swarm hosts so 27 supply and 1800 minerals/ 900 gas. From what i see the damage is done more from the splash of the siege.
On October 24 2011 23:54 Monomate wrote: To me they just launch the locusts way too slow. That terran could easily just move the tanks forward a little bit and scan to eliminate the swarm hosts. The terran has plenty of time in between volleys to get up there and deal with them.
That is what i am afraid for as well. From the sounds it looked like the siege unit the zerg needed in mid game but it seems it will be used for something else since the dam worms are simply to slow, not to mention the range.
To be honest the "slow" spawn rate can be fixed by mannually burrowing your swarmhosts in groups of 2-3 instead of just burrowing them at the same time... giving you a steady line of locusts to attack.
and no... zerg doesnt need a carrier... the carrier was bad for 2 reasons.
1.incredibly hight tech cost.
2. took too long to get to it.
but on the other hand the swarm host takes way less time and costs way less so making it like a carrier attack wise would really just end up making zerg too much of a problem mid/late game (even more now that they have the vyper :X)
I dont really like it so far, particularly because I thought it'd spit out broodlings which travel faster. It doesn't seem like something I could put up on a ramp to defend a choke either, since they'd have to circle around and walk down the ramp themselves which was what I was hoping for in this unit, particularly the idea of shooting locusts off of a cliff and onto the approaching terran army, making tanks hit some of the marines and stuff.
Can't have it all I suppose but so far, unless these guys are somehow practical to mass up early, they dont seem very fun or interesting.
From the limited creativity my mind can muster, this doesn't really provide map control so much as a contain like in the video. Would like to see some pros try out different positioning to serve other roles though.
Reasons I think you are wrong about saying the SH is the same as the Infestor and / or the Brood Lord:
- The Infestor uses energy to create those Infested Terrans, which is a tactical choice as opposed to using Fungal Growth or Neural Parasite. - Infested Terrans can shoot into the air, Swarm Hosts can't. - Swarm Hosts can lock a position down without costing the player APM, the Infestor can only lock down a position for as long as it's energy lasts and costs the player APM. - Swarm Hosts are one Tier below the Brood Lord and countered in a completely different way. - Brood Lords are meant to be the end-game siege unit needed to break overly excessive defenses (of, for example Bronze players making 20 cannons), contradictionary the Swarm Host is designed to fight for board control in a different stage of the game (mid-game).
I do feel there can be some tweaking going on surrounding the Swarm Host's attack. Either make it a bit faster and weaker, or make it faster and stronger and make the Locusts cost a bit of minerals (but this will piss off all those Protoss Reaver lovers).
Its a weird unit. Does anyone know how long the locust lasts? Because they have a decent amount of hp, so they can tank pretty damn well, which makes up for the time between spawns. Maybe reduce the hp, but increase the spawn rate?
Also, why are people assuming that you'll just send a Swarm Lord in its own towards a base? Do people do that with siege tanks? Or do they have support for the unit, like Zerg players will do with this new unit. They'll have lings/roaches/whatever to support it (at least they should do)
On October 24 2011 23:51 jeeeeohn wrote: I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
Get a couple banelings maybe? Its not like you will only have spawn host.
I think most of the redundancy is that these locusts aren't projectiles... Sieging an enemy is useless if they can shoot down these siege 'projectiles'. All it does is add a few more units to an attack, where you lose the food from these hosts in an attack. In order to actually give some map presence, these attacks need to be projectiles that can't be shot down (like tanks/broodlords)
It looks too phallic even for the race with spine crawlers spore crawlers and nydus.
I still think the lurker is better. Broodlords are good cos they do range damage and bug out the ai and lurkers impale things but swarm hosts just make suicide melee units.
On October 25 2011 00:00 Comprissent wrote: I think most of the redundancy is that these locusts aren't projectiles... Sieging an enemy is useless if they can shoot down these siege 'projectiles'. All it does is add a few more units to an attack, where you lose the food from these hosts in an attack. In order to actually give some map presence, these attacks need to be projectiles that can't be shot down (like tanks/broodlords)
Yep you can't avoid hit from broodlord, siege tank, collosus, but you can avoid and kill this locust.
Imagine 8 marines vs. lurker = lurker does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. tank = tank does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. broodlord = BL does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. swarm host = swarm host does no damage at all because his attack is killed before it hits.
But again we don't know cost of this unit. If it's something like 100/50 then it can be massable and quite deadly.
Basically, Blizzard wanted to do Lurker all over again, because it is a great unit, but they still don't want to copy it, so they did like with Warhound, changed the unit slightly and gave it a new name. However, locusts doesn't work as good and cool as Lurkers.
It would be better maybe if they spawned units very very quickly, like a stream with several each second, but that did very little damage. As fast as a Nydus pops out units.
I think its pretty different from infested terrans, simply because how strong and durable the locusts are.
Infested terrans pretty much die instantly when there is an army around, they are much better for harass and at making diversions. You cannot really force and engagement or pressure with infested terrans.
The point of the swarm host is to put pressure on a turtling opponent. You get these free units that are strong enough to constantly deal damage to your opponent, forcing him to come out and deal with this threat. I guess you could best compare it to siege tanks that are slowly pushing towards your base, taking out production buildings and stuff in the progress. Unless you react you're gonna keep losing stuff and eventually fall too much behind.
From what I saw in the video it seemed to work okay, but I think the locusts could be a bit faster. They didn't feel too threatening yet, but thats something that can be easily fixed as they start testing stuff out more.
The problem for me is they STILL haven't given Zerg a unit that can attack (repeatedly) while burrowed.
1 DT or 1 Banshee = Detect me now or I will fuck you up.
Swarm Host = Detect me at your leisure as I dispense small numbers of slow, armoured zerglings through your simcity towards ranged attackers at long intervals.
Yet again Zerg gets something that requires 10 times the investment to be useful.
Just imagine using it in a undefended expansion. If im too busy and my 4th is being attacked well fuck. Dont think of the unit, think of the possiblities.
You can use this to block a ramp. ever think of that?
The video shows just the Swarm hosts in isolation with no supporting army. That's really not giving any real idea of their utility.
Altough the numbers can change, at Blizzcon the locust had 16 damage attack with <1s cooldown and 87 hitpoints IRCC, so these are much stronger than broodlings. So at the current level (which could change a lot) these are actually reasonably strong free/no-cap unts. I can't really complain about a 15s wait time to get the equivalent of 6 broodlings. In fact it actually takes about 15 s to generate 6 broodlings. Similar to broodlings and infested terrans, that's a lot of damage that misdirected away from actual army units.
I prefer your idea of Locust then Blizzard current model. Honestly, no matter what, Infested Terran can do this exact same job and Infestors can even pull back after raiding the front. The only fundamental difference is your Terran enemy can EMP your infestors, where EMPing is useless vs a Swarm Host. As it stands the concept of the Swarm Host fills a niche role which is already being fulfilled, by mid-game Infestors and late-game Broodlords.
On October 25 2011 00:13 ContactKilla wrote: Just imagine using it in a undefended expansion. If im too busy and my 4th is being attacked well fuck. Dont think of the unit, think of the possiblities.
You can use this to block a ramp. ever think of that?
Ahm, what? You can send about anything at an undefend expansion and it would fuck you up if you don't notice it?
I really dislike what I've seen of the Swarm Host so far and I really am struggling to see how it's supposed to be useful.
The ONLY situation I can see it being useful is to cut off Terran reinforcements, that's it. But that's also something I can do just as easily with a small pack of Zerglings or Mutas.
Any other potential function of the Swarm Host I think is currently being filled by the Infested Terran, like sure the Locust might do more damage and have more HP but like so what? That's still just filling the same role of Infested Terran except maybe slightly better?
I really like all of the Zerg changes except for the Swarm Host, it just seems useless as hell to me.
Funny how Blizzard removed Lurker for having a role barely similar to the Baneling and yet Swarm Host's functions are already filled by Infestor and Broodlord. What a joke.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is I just want my Lurker back. They gave Terran their Firebat back why can't I have my Lurker??!!
No. The swarm host is not redundant. It's a lesser midgame version fo the broodlord that fills a similar role aswell as a potential defensive role. The swarm host is that extra tier of unit that zerg needs in the HUGE gap between mass roach/ling and broodlord tech. The swarm host is a good change and it does not need to be critisized for its similarities to a broodlord. On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp).
Actually I think that's exactly what zerg needs to be more "swarm like" Imagine late game broodlords, infestors and swarm hosts massing these free units to fight with the enemy army, while you're other ground forces are attacking at a different place. That's exactly what I've been hoping for, having a lot of small, weak and expendable units.
I worry that blizzard might have added the swarm host as their own take on the lurker and that it would fill the same kind of role. Well it doesn't, and the lurker would still be a great addition to zerg while the swarm host is just a burrowed brood lord.
I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp).
And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved...
On October 24 2011 23:48 Alpina wrote: I'ts not same role as infestor. You come near opponent base and burrow in range few of them and they will attack non-stop all the time forcing opponent to do something about it. But yeah there are little similarities.
While I agree, I don't see why I would get this unit over an infestor. And I'm all for mini zerg carriers!
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
Let me explain my problem with the SH. It's similar to the BL except BL does instant damage with it's attack and the broodlings can't be targeted till they are already in close proximity making them instantly effective in an attack even if the broodlings get instantly demolished. The locust on the other hand have the potention to be instantly gunned down theoretically without doing any amount of damage, it's a unit that comes after Infestation Pit meaning the enemy should already have a rather significant army and will more than likely be able to handle the Locusts without incurring any real damage.
Secondly, the role of absorbing the first shots is fine and all but people already use Infested Terrans to do this so there is overlap with the role and the Infestor has more follow-up functions, it can fungal, it can harass all game and it can help in major battles, what can the Swarm Host do?
I'm not necessarily against the idea of the Swarm Host, but from what I've seen I can't imagine it being at all useful unless there are significant changes.
On October 25 2011 00:29 CriscoTroll wrote: mmkay, let's have balance discussions about units that don't actually exist and that none of us have ever tried to use, makes a lot of sense.
I'm not discussing balance, I'm trying to figure out how this unit is supposed to be at all useful to the Zerg.
On October 25 2011 00:13 ContactKilla wrote: Just imagine using it in a undefended expansion. If im too busy and my 4th is being attacked well fuck. Dont think of the unit, think of the possiblities.
You can use this to block a ramp. ever think of that?
Zerg will rather want to do a zergling runby on a undefended expansion, will do more damage and take it down way faster, really way faster. The time it will take for the a group of 3-4 swarmhosts to take down a expansion or do good harrass (worth their investment) after seeing this video is... well difficult to pull off. The speed of the spawns are not enough to be a real threat to workers, the fact they are not projectiles and melee makes it that they have to chase workers and on top of this comes the fact that the spawn rate is mind numbing slow. So the defending player has easily time to take workers to safety and get a small troop number there to take down the harrass before his expansion is been taken down. While a zergling runby can easily block the path of the workers, catch up to them and have the dps to quickly take down the base and run out (muta's sorta the same way, easy going in and easy going out), don't see that happening with the swarmhost.
I honestly don't see this unit that viable as of now, in defense it may be a bit decent, but their spawnrate, the speed of the spawns and the fact they aren't projectiles while being melee hitters just makes it way too easy to avoid real damage from them. Massing them is a option, but wheter that is a good option or not depends on their cost and supply count they take. If this unit costs like 100 gass a piece and takes in 4 supply, then I don't see it being massed any time soon. Rather want some muta's to pick things off, or save the gass for infestors that have 3x times as many "attacks" that each can be used in different ways. So far no idea on their costs though, so that's just assuming things. ^ ^
As a backup unit to a main army... it won't work either in my eyes. The zerg army is mostly mobile based (even more so when the hydra gets speed boost) and the swarmhost clearly isn't. Zerg isn't supposed to siege up with their whole army, they are in a constant move and therefor the swarmhost is most likely even less usefull being used in a army composition for a full-out battle.
Setting them apart somewhere in the map (like one could do with the lurker) comes with a problem that, unlike the lurker, swarmhost don't do direct damage. They do damage "over time", well sort of that is, so running into them isn't a direct threat, it takes time and with the more time you give them, the more chance one actually get's damage done with it. But for them to be given time you have to back them up to keep them alive and protected. With that you limit the mobility of the zerg players other army units, which isn't what a zerg player 9/10 times wants, at least that's how I see it.
In the end we will have to wait, but so far I think this unit will most likely see little to no real usage in the higher level play of sc2.
I don't like it, seems too much swarmy, dont forget this is an e-sport game and people dont want to see 1000000 units a-move and not see shit because there is too much stuff
On October 25 2011 00:29 CriscoTroll wrote: mmkay, let's have balance discussions about units that don't actually exist and that none of us have ever tried to use, makes a lot of sense.
I'm not discussing balance, I'm trying to figure out how this unit is supposed to be at all useful to the Zerg.
Well, for starters you should stop assuming that the locusts aren't threatening because they currently don't really feel like it. This is only the first iteration of the unit and it will probably undergo many changes. Just assume that the locusts will be able to deal damage to a turtling opponent, thats the whole point of this unit.
What comes to unit compositions, just imagine going lingfestor in HOTS. Good unit comp when you can catch your opponents army off guard, but cannot really attack a fortified base. Well it just happens that with infestors you get swarm host tech, and suddenly you have a way to put pressure on your opponent and force engagements that aren't ideal for him.
On October 24 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: I somehow can't see a reason to every build one of these... Or think of a situation where i'm like "yeah... swarm hosts would solve that"...
that pretty much summed up what i had in mind too.
SH is (yet) another very non-zerglike unit.
and i wonder how much food will they cost....because lets be honest we zerg has some food count issue.
I hope this unit is cheap because if its anywhere close to the cost of the opposing terran army in the video, it's kinda useless... He could just amove in there with that big of a cooldown.
I had to laugh when Browder said "swarmy feelin" because this is nothing like a Hydra push in BW ZvP or Ling/infestor in Sc2 and I didn't get the swarmy feeling at all. Also slow and methodical grind of the Zerg race? I much rather have rushy agile burst dmg than this. The Swarmhost itself looks awesome but the way it functions now is designed poorly imo. It gets countered directly by the new Hellion Transformation and the last thing Zerg needs is slow low hp high cooldown dps...
On October 25 2011 00:19 BeeNu wrote: I really dislike what I've seen of the Swarm Host so far and I really am struggling to see how it's supposed to be useful.
The ONLY situation I can see it being useful is to cut off Terran reinforcements, that's it. But that's also something I can do just as easily with a small pack of Zerglings or Mutas.
Any other potential function of the Swarm Host I think is currently being filled by the Infested Terran, like sure the Locust might do more damage and have more HP but like so what? That's still just filling the same role of Infested Terran except maybe slightly better?
I really like all of the Zerg changes except for the Swarm Host, it just seems useless as hell to me.
Funny how Blizzard removed Lurker for having a role barely similar to the Baneling and yet Swarm Host's functions are already filled by Infestor and Broodlord. What a joke.
I guess what I'm really trying to say is I just want my Lurker back. They gave Terran their Firebat back why can't I have my Lurker??!!
No. The cost effectiveness of 4 swarm hosts instead of 12 infestors is enough to make them a viable option vs tanks alone. The unit is a siege unit. It is used to start an engagement vs a stationary type of army such as a tankline. It's the optimal flanking tool. I don't know how much you played this game but in most games where a zerg tries to throw roaches into a tankline today they simply die. You have to attack while the tanks are unsieged. It's not even remotely possible to engage a tankline as zerg unless you have a clear food advantage or brood lords.
This unit allows zergs not only to get a good flank at the start of a battle but it is also a great supporting unit that will help you survive UNTIL you get those broodlords out (or ultras probably in HOTS).
Swarm host gives an incentive for the protoss / terran army to actually back off and it can hold a position for a long time. This is something that a lurker would never add to sc2. Lurkers were great in bw bcause zerg had no other units like it. In sc2 the combination of banes and fungals have taken the lurkers role. This unit is clearly anti tank and in some cases probably anti mass immortal.
Imagine doing the spore trick to get about 20 extra food in your max army. Then you spend that food on swarm hosts. Assuming they are 2 food each (might be 3) you will get 20 locusts added tio your maxed army every 10 seconds. That is a pretty fearsome situation. Also can you guys imagine swarm hosts in combination with infestors? You can burrow the swarm host and then as the locusts pop you run in with infestors and put up infested terrans while flanking with your entire army. That is going to be some real Julyesque sauron style zerg.
I see the swarm host as a defensive unit (and tankline pushing unit) used mostly to survive until you can get the real lategame units out. It is not too strong but its useful and probably needed.
The only thing I'm a little worried about is their speed. Lurkers, while obviously needing to get closer, had the very fast runspeed unburrowed so that if you saw you were losing a fight you can preeemtively take your lurkers and run back to a base or to reinforcements. This can never be done witht eh swarm host. I would like it if when you saw that you were starting to lose the fight you could unburrow your swarm hosts and start running home. Zerg has no unit retention what so ever except for speed roaches and I dunno about getting this unit if it's dead int he water once the army dies. All depends on unit cost of course.
Blizz needs to do something with the swarm host. Whether that means to make them in to mini-carriers, I'm not sure, but the current design doesn't seem to offer anything I can't already do with Zergings.
That seems to be the real issue: why would you get a swarm host when you already have lings?
On October 24 2011 23:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers*
I think that that is the problem. Infested Marines, Broodlings and Superbroodlings cost nothing and can destroy so so much :/ Sure you can argue the tech and the unit cost of their hosts but when in battle your trading these "fake units" for units that take up supply and cost to build. idk.
On October 24 2011 23:59 Velr wrote: I somehow can't see a reason to every build one of these... Or think of a situation where i'm like "yeah... swarm hosts would solve that"...
that pretty much summed up what i had in mind too.
SH is (yet) another very non-zerglike unit.
and i wonder how much food will they cost....because lets be honest we zerg has that some food count issue.
Isn't zerg supposed to be a swarm race?.. Set up 4 swarm hosts.. every 15 seconds 2 90hp melee units go flying out.. so 8x90hp units tanking damage every 15 seconds and are free to just launch at the army while zerg is doing other shit around the map.
Swarmhost needs buffs i think (buffs with their use) and maybe nerf with costs of unit (but dunno now)
You can use the units as a constant free scout on the map. Irritating the other player, needs them to find hosts on the map with scan OR that flying detector which i cant remember the name of.
I think they need to spawn 3-4 locusts a swarm host, to make them better. OR the HP/strenght needs to be increased (workers shoudn't be able to own them)
My suggestion would be the following: - Locusts can cliff-hop and have the leap ability that those lings in HotS single player have. This would allow them to siege from high/low ground similar to any other siege unit, and would allow them to actually engage with larger armies
I originally thought that burrowing them all at the same time to send in waves would be the best, as each wave would do more damage due to more attackers then, but I think burrowing them staggered, so that there's a constant stream of units with no break would be the best option, as they are less clumped up for tanks, and it never gives the opponent a defined "counter attack now" timing.
Feels that it could be really strong. Zerg generally has map control so you can just place these in the center of the map and have them streamline units to the opponents expansions without you having to even spend any energy on it.
the thing is the cooldown is wayyyy too long.as soon as the terran notice some locust, they would scan and insta-kill SHs In other words, each SH is for only two locusts (I dont think mass SHs would be a viable strat), not sustainable enough. On the other hand, lurker is just 200x better at dealing damage and controlling map but yet they make this sad remix just for the sake of adding something new and flashy. Blizzard plz stop being stubborn, I dont even mind if lurker is put in tier3
On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp).
And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved...
People saying it's redundant does not make it true. The hydra has never been redundant. It has been unusable because of its speed but it has very different purposes from a roach. The hydra/roach army is vastly different from a mass roach army. A hydra/ling army is vastly different from a roach/ling army.
I love the swarm host man! 2 zealots every 15 seconds and a potential 20 siege range. I was like: "This is going to get nerfed so hard!" when i saw it..
On October 24 2011 23:50 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Imagine Swarm host/infestor/brood lord.... *shivers*
I think that that is the problem. Infested Marines, Broodlings and Superbroodlings cost nothing and can destroy so so much :/ Sure you can argue the tech and the unit cost of their hosts but when in battle your trading these "fake units" for units that take up supply and cost to build. idk.
Think of it this way: The cost to effectiveness of the zerg investment in said unit increases the longer it is around dealing un-answered damage to the opponent.
If an infestor is able to endlessly spawn infested terrans that you fight with your army, then yes it is getting a LOT more bang for it's buck due to all of the 'free' units it's making. However, if you snipe off said infestor after it sends out 4 infested terrans you kill, it suddenly was nowhere near cost effective. The same thing goes for the swarm host, if you let them sit there sending waves and waves of units at your army without countering and killing them, then yes you deserve to lose. This is giving the initiative in the zerg's hands at more points in the game then WoL, where after getting to mid-game they were lacking.
if you dont burrow/attack them simultaneously you will reduce redundandence cause they will block each other otherwise (melee prob.. just more at the same spot wont do more damage etc) .every few seconds a small wave potentially causing siege splash ... and maybe it gets harde for the tanks/marines to unsige scan stim kill etc... maybe you can force an all-tank-unsiege cause they cant risk loosing marines tanks etc ...
this would be a chance to "A-Move in" .... just like a smaller, little slower, less aggressive effect you have when broodlords first arrive at the front/siegeline and without vikings you see them often unsiege and retreat till vikings or they go all in stim and try to kill you...
Yeah i think broodlords and swarmhost are bascially the smae jsut one is stronger but more time and tech expensive, a siege unit is nice but they dont need to add more "free" creeps to zerg imo.
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war.
Swarm host is awesome with ling/mutalisk/swarmhost.
Simply because in the open, the SH can be used to force an engagement while the lings flank and mutas either reinforce or go straight for the mineral line.
I don't see why anyone says they are redundant. They are awesome. Drawing fire against marine/tank/medivac, they more than pay for themselves. Since in sufficient numbers, marines would waste stim and medivac energy just to hold the line.
Point of the swarm host is to fortify positions. This count be either defensively... or similar to tanks sieging outside your base to contain.
I think whether it fulfils this role or not will depend on the lifespan of the broodlings that pop out. If they live long enough to wait for the next set, it should be fine. But if there is a window where enemies can just run in and snipe them all it's pointless. Especially since they're probably armored and will die in 2 seconds to marauders.
The Swarm Host is obviously not anti bio-ball, because I don't think the Locusts would do anything to a decent ball of marines that is being healed by medivacs and we already got banelings and infestors for that. So why not give it the broodling attack the queen had in sc bw? If you could burrow and one-shot kill units like tanks, marines etc I think it'd be much more useful and also add a new level of micro to the game.
On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp).
And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved...
People saying it's redundant does not make it true. The hydra has never been redundant. It has been unusable because of its speed but it has very different purposes from a roach. The hydra/roach army is vastly different from a mass roach army. A hydra/ling army is vastly different from a roach/ling army.
Sorry; I was (mostly) being flippant
Still, it's true that people have gone to almost any lengths to avoid building Hydra, because there's always something you'd rather have if you can possibly manage it.
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war.
If I wanted marines, I would go back to BW, OH WAIT, the actually got BETTER in this game!
On October 25 2011 00:51 DoomsVille wrote: Point of the swarm host is to fortify positions. This count be either defensively... or similar to tanks sieging outside your base to contain.
I think whether it fulfils this role or not will depend on the lifespan of the broodlings that pop out. If they live long enough to wait for the next set, it should be fine. But if there is a window where enemies can just run in and snipe them all it's pointless. Especially since they're probably armored and will die in 2 seconds to marauders.
I'm not even sure if SH are that great at defending positions, because they add even more potential blocker for your lings and won't circumvent FF.
I would prefer Lurker by a mile for mapcontrol/defending. They would actually add something new to the Zerg arsenal instead of a poor mans Broodlord.
Think about using the Swarm Hosts and the Blinding Cloud of the Viper in conjunction. This negates the problem with the Locust being killed before they can deal their damage.
On October 25 2011 00:23 StarBrift wrote:On the same note you could say that the new hydralisk is redundant becuase its now going to be a roach with more dps that costs more and you get later (obv you can't burrow it and it has less hp).
And since nobody has been saying the hydra is redundant, I guess your point is proved...
People saying it's redundant does not make it true. The hydra has never been redundant. It has been unusable because of its speed but it has very different purposes from a roach. The hydra/roach army is vastly different from a mass roach army. A hydra/ling army is vastly different from a roach/ling army.
Sorry; I was (mostly) being flippant
Still, it's true that people have gone to almost any lengths to avoid building Hydra, because there's always something you'd rather have if you can possibly manage it.
Indeed, I am one of the biggest hydra haters out there. Really excited to see the new speed change though.
I really hate that people are labeling it as "free units" cause it costs money to produce and each unit it produces has an approximate damage out put but not more than one at the same time. You dont say oh a seige tank can do "free damage" do you?
I havn't really seen anyone discussing the scouting potential of the Swarm Host. Depending on the distance the locusts can travel before it despawns, It has some great scouting potential,
- Keep 4 or 5 in your base. Set rally points all over the map. - Keep 1 hidden near enemy expantion. Rally to expantion. - Keep 1 hidden near enemy base. Rally to front door.
The Swarm Host presents all kinds of possibilities to control the map and limit the enemies options.
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war.
If I wanted marines, I would go back to BW, OH WAIT, the actually got BETTER in this game!
We are not talking about the main core unit (lings and zealots remained the same, and improved)
Zerg got banelings which are way better than lukers in killing marines, are T1.5 and feel zergy.
Oh yes, marines with micro or tanks can counter them. And also do they with lurkers.
On October 25 2011 01:03 Makura wrote: I really hate that people are labeling it as "free units" cause it costs money to produce and each unit it produces has an approximate damage out put but not more than one at the same time. You dont say oh a seige tank can do "free damage" do you?
No but they mean that you'll be able to spawn the small creatures indefinitely, meaning in the end (considering it didn't die very quickly) the cost of making the spawner will have been cheaper than building the equivalent like for example 20 zerglings. If those small creatures die you will have lost nothing as it cost you nothing, that's what they're getting at. A siege tank is similar but it's firing, and it's not a creature being spawned.
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
And if that different game turns out worse because they didn't expand on previous ideas rather than replace them with stupid gimmicky shit?
On October 25 2011 00:25 Eviscerador wrote: I don't see the point, so zerg have BL in lair and it is bad?? in which way? They are like free units to tank the first salvo round of anything, and to fuck with firing AI. From each shot you will be receiving two free units with 87 HP and 10 damage, that is like 150 minerals worth of zerglings (not to talk about 3 larva)
They look great. Lurkers in the other way, just feel old. Come on, I don't want SC1 with better graphics, I wan't a different game.
I completely agree. If I wanted lurkers I would go back to BW. A new game is a new game with new stuff ESPECIALLY with an expansion. Not a remade brood war.
If I wanted marines, I would go back to BW, OH WAIT, the actually got BETTER in this game!
I mean... If I wanted BW units I would play BW! Thus I serve play Protoss in SC2.
--not.
Marines, tanks, battlecruisers, zerglings, hydras, mutalisks... They are all from Starcraft 1 - and they play huge roles in the game. .______.
But more seriously, lurker + fungal growth would be ridiculously OP. That's why infestors make me a sad panda. ):
I think it is important to remember that, in the video, the SH is by itself. People are mentioning that a pack of marines could scan and stim to kill it but I can't help but imagine having an infestor there waiting to fungal the pack of marines and lings to run out and surround them, killing the marines allowing the SH to continue its assault.
Still though, I'm not as excited about this unit as I am for the other zerg changes. I was excited when I heard we were getting a siege type unit and I honestly thought it was going to be something that shot a projectile that exploded on impact for splash damage, but I guess that is too similar to the siege tank. Edit: Exactly like the siege tank
I think it could be strong indirectly as it might force the Terran to unseige? They have a lot of hp so if you have a lot of them you can probably win engagements
I think u are right with half the things u say. Redundancy: I agree with the the redundancy with the Broodlord. Both units to basicly the same, but the Broodlord is better at it, though it is more expensive. The Swarmhost seems to be a cheaper Broodloard, while cheap doesnt really describe him properly. I think the comparsion between Infested marines and the locusts is just plain unlogic, because there is no energycost on the locusts. This changes the dynamic between the spells completly!
Damage Output: Here I'm completly with you.
To your idea: Yeah mb this is not bad... I hate to bring this, but a more direct attack like the lurker would fit in the game much more. If the damage of that burrowed unit does take to much time it will be to easy to kill it. Compare them with Siege Tanks. What would you think of a siege tank that does the same DPS, but the damage would be dealed constantly. It would be much easier to kill it imo. Thats the same think Im afraid of with the swarm host. It doesnt have to be THE Lurker attack, but there needs to be a more direct instantaneous dmg to make up for a longer setup time
What do u guys think?
btw. Imagine in this video there wouldnt be seiegetanks killing themselves, but a marine/Marauader ball with medivacs. Im fairly certain, that nothing would die.
Personally, I think they should shoot out mini banelings or something similar. But with lowered damage of course and maybe would have a speed upgrade like the baneling or make the baneling and the mini baneling have the same upgrade.
It would be nice to see this unit have a slightly smaller radius and do about 5 damage per explosion.
One thing that would make this unit equal to the lurker and keep the clunky mechanic it has now is to keep the locust burrowed until they reach their rally point destination. To make it work they can give them a HP reduction - right now they have 80 hp.
The splash idea only works for tanks and banelings. And it mostly relies on your opponent having no micro. 2 locust per Swarm host is just too little, relying on dedicating most of your army to it. Ramming 20 lings into a wall with dark swarm will be a lot better.
Then again ... Maybe the locust will be better with the new dark swarm too.
now... well to be honest it doesn't look that good. and i agree it shoots way too slow. i hardly see much potential for them.
time will tell, right now it seems worse than for example a lurker would've been but i don't think we even need lurkers, as banelings are so good (burrow movement seems imba).
still i fail to see many people using them, although i wonder how good agressive zerg builds with them as a siege unit would be... though i don't think too good.
This unit is just a retarded re-design of the lurker. Just give us the damn lurker this is just an immobile brood lord that won't hold areas. I agree with the OP.
1. If you just put a SH in the middle of nowhere, will it keep spawning a Locust that just hang around till the timer goes out? And if it just stay there, will you have to select and move the Locusts yourself to attack if you burrow one outside the enemy base?
2. I might have lived under a rock, but how do you access it? Does it evolve from Hydra? Or stand alone Infestation tech?
The difference is, the swarm host is burrowed, has a persistent presence, and i believe is armored, as in the demo video they shrug off a tank shot easily enough.
This doesn't apply to the infestor because all of its spells are relatively expensive, and you have to pick and choose your engagements. Same with broodlords, but instead of energy, you have opportunity cost. You pay a lot of money and tech into these units that supplement your army, but without support, they can fall extremely easily.
The swarm host's presence is much more persistent, and can hold down locations much better. It'll be very hard to run 8 marines up a ramp blocked by swarm hosts and spines, conversely doing such things with broodlords or infestors are first of all very expensive, and in many scenarios they might have just served a better purpose as part of your army.
I personally would never make a broodlord and hold position it over a ramp to my expansion for the entirety of a game, but I would definitely do this with swarm hosts. This was a common tactic in brood war and It'll make the game much more interesting in my opinion
On October 25 2011 01:27 Stropheum wrote: The difference is, the swarm host is burrowed, has a persistent presence, and i believe is armored, as in the demo video they shrug off a tank shot easily enough.
This doesn't apply to the infestor because all of its spells are relatively expensive, and you have to pick and choose your engagements. Same with broodlords, but instead of energy, you have opportunity cost. You pay a lot of money and tech into these units that supplement your army, but without support, they can fall extremely easily.
The swarm host's presence is much more persistent, and can hold down locations much better. It'll be very hard to run 8 marines up a ramp blocked by swarm hosts and spines, conversely doing such things with broodlords or infestors are first of all very expensive, and in many scenarios they might have just served a better purpose as part of your army.
I personally would never make a broodlord and hold position it over a ramp to my expansion for the entirety of a game, but I would definitely do this with swarm hosts. This was a common tactic in brood war and It'll make the game much more interesting in my opinion
Haven't thought about that, as in blocking the ramp entry... but to be honest we hardly ever see marines running up a ramp ^^ They usually come by drop because the zerg has mapcontrol most of the time. Except they might be handy to defend hidden expansions for some time.
I think it's very intentional that zerg have a few units that create units that require no food. I wouldn't call that redundant, swarm host is much faster to get than brood lord. I think the whole point is that you can hope to break a siege tank defense before 3rd tier. The little dudes released remind me of zealots, soaking up a good amount of damage so the rest of your army can run in without losing half you numbers to tank splash. And if your army doesn't quite break through, the next round of swarm host continue to do damage as your new zerglings arrive. It's very much an endless wave of zerg units.
On October 25 2011 01:27 Stropheum wrote: I personally would never make a broodlord and hold position it over a ramp to my expansion for the entirety of a game, but I would definitely do this with swarm hosts. This was a common tactic in brood war and It'll make the game much more interesting in my opinion
Yes it was common with Lurkers.... But this is no Lurker. 8 Marine drops rofl-stomp a single or maybe two SwarmHosts very hard. I dont even believe the Locusts will outdmg the medivac heal
On October 25 2011 01:27 Stropheum wrote: The difference is, the swarm host is burrowed, has a persistent presence, and i believe is armored, as in the demo video they shrug off a tank shot easily enough.
This doesn't apply to the infestor because all of its spells are relatively expensive, and you have to pick and choose your engagements. Same with broodlords, but instead of energy, you have opportunity cost. You pay a lot of money and tech into these units that supplement your army, but without support, they can fall extremely easily.
The swarm host's presence is much more persistent, and can hold down locations much better. It'll be very hard to run 8 marines up a ramp blocked by swarm hosts and spines, conversely doing such things with broodlords or infestors are first of all very expensive, and in many scenarios they might have just served a better purpose as part of your army.
I personally would never make a broodlord and hold position it over a ramp to my expansion for the entirety of a game, but I would definitely do this with swarm hosts. This was a common tactic in brood war and It'll make the game much more interesting in my opinion
The thing is that Swarm hosts are infestor pit timing, i.e. you'll barely have any up to stop the 9-minute siege tank-marine push. The lurker coming from the t1 hydra was available in time. Two swarm hosts will simply not spawn enough locusts to avoid getting scanned and sniped, while two lurkers were deadly to marines trying to break a choke.
1) It looks shit, and as it's been stated, its roles are already fulfilled by other units. 15 seconds is a really long time, the spawns are melee, slow and incredibly easy to kite. That video used 9 swarm hosts, and after 30 seconds they'd only destroyed two bunkers (and could've easily been scanned and killed in the meantime). Imagine what 9 tanks or 9 immortals could've done in that time...
2) It does not feel "zergy" at all. Since when was Zerg the slow, methodical grinding race? If anything that's Terran. Zerg is the speedy, agile, hit and run in a million places with overwhelming numbers of weak units race. Think about EVERY SINGLE ZERG UNIT in Broodwar - Lings, Hydras, Mutas, Scourges, Devourers, Ultras. They were faster, but weaker than their Terran and Protoss counterparts. Even the lurker was very fast when unburrowed, allowing it to run in and deploy quicker than siege tanks, but without the superior range or damage. I've hated the introduction of the roach for this very reason, and now Blizzard gives me the most disappointing addition yet.
People in this thread are grossly underestimating the amount of damage these things can soak up. They have almost 90 hp per a locust! That means if you spread your SH out siege tanks will take a minimum of 2 shots to kill free units. And it's not like you can just ignore them either since the locusts deal fairly good dps.
SH is not a unit you just mass and win with. They're a support unit.
On October 25 2011 01:37 Sueco wrote: The thing is that Swarm hosts are infestor pit timing, i.e. you'll barely have any up to stop the 9-minute siege tank-marine push. The lurker coming from the t1 hydra was available in time.
Very good point! The same thing applies to Infestor, which can potentionally stop the Marine/tank push, but the timing for them to come out is so narrow that u have to rush to them and miss army
there is a reason at why lurkers are not good in this game, and that's because marauders will rape them, as well marines are higher health, so lurkers would have to do more damage.
I think the swarm hosts overlaps too much with the broodlord. perhaps some sort of attack as well as its current ability. As it seems now, your just throwing in a couple roaches to die every 15 seconds. They will eventually have to do deal with it. But i don't think of it as a contain unit, there are just not enough of them, and they don't do enough damage. Also, in that preview, there were ALOT of swarm hosts, and it was just silly when they attacked.against that small force. Lurkers were not really siege units, at least, that's not how i thought of them, they were units that controlled space, and restricted paths of movement, if you were gonna dedicate to an attack as terran, you better go.
This is more like a weird broodlord now.
I'm not sure what its adding. Maybe in combination with the viper it could help. truly make it so that terran has to deal with it.
I wouldn't call SH redundant, but I do think it's just a horribly unit from conception.
Blizzards idea of "controlling space" for a Terran is a Shredder (because apparently they don't like the idea that you lose a siege tank if you try and siege without marine support...). A siege damage unit in a compact area to hold a position. That is exactly what Zerg has been asking for in the Lurker.
Instead, Zerg gets a "slow methodical grind" unit. The video says it's a "great way to gain map control" but you need the map control to get these guys in position in the first place! I don't see them being useful for defence. I would much rather have a Lurker or two burrow in mineral lines while a Terran drops repeatedly or be able to defend attacks at a choke by controlling the space... The Swarm Host just isn't that kind of unit and the only use I can see so far is to apply moderate pressure to a hard turtling Terran in the hope that they splash damage themself to death with dispensable (and seemingly useless) cannon fodder...
On a personal note I think the design is ugly as hell as well...
On October 25 2011 01:40 r_con wrote: there is a reason at why lurkers are not good in this game, and that's because marauders will rape them, as well marines are higher health, so lurkers would have to do more damage.
By this logic there would be half of the units gone because unit X completely destroys them. Just sayin... ofc Lurker need a SC2 adjustment...
i think this unit seems to be really cool and good
1: siege unit the fact that they live so long period of time and dont need a target to shoot out thees guys (infact its "built" from the swarm host allows it to have the greatest "range" in the game. you can slowly break down defenses being on a very far distance so tanks cant kill you, plus its on the ground so vikings cant kill you too
2: meatshield i think this unit creates much potential for just saving time and making it harder to break down the zerg. maybe its very difficult to break down spine crawlers, hydras and infestor if these locusts creep sprinting in and soaking up damage much like the broodlord acts in this situation. but again since its a ground unit that burrows, costs less and is lower tier with a far longer range. maybe it will do the job better than the broodlords as far as "blocking" the opponents army goes
3: cost efficiency in the stalement late game scenario kinda goes back to my first point but i just wanna point out this in the late game abit. imagine the late game scenario where neither one of the players want or can attack. this is the only single unit that can slowly break down the enemy. you might say infestors infested terran can do the same but ghost raven and even siege tank range might be too big of a threat. ofcourse the borodlord cant poke at this defense as well from terran becaues of the vikings and ghosts. get enough amounts of locusts to actually reach the terran, (might only need 1 swarm host per siege tank in this scenario) then slowly damage him from a far distance without being in danger at all. this could change the basic concept of zvt lategame and might force terran to be the aggressor when you reach high enough numbers of these guys
ofcourse these are all just ideas and speculations but i think theres potential for this unit that no other unit has for zerg, even for any race. the "attack range" combined with spawning free units makes it really unique, on top of being tier 2 where a special unit like this "belongs" in tier 3 (like the broodlord)
the weakness of the unit is obvious tho. straight up engagements it might not be cost efficient to use, its slow movement and the constant need of being protected by other units as it seems to be very fragile alone
It should be shooting out banelings, then we're talking :D
EDIT: On a serious note. I don't think this unit will be that useful in it's current state. I think Zerg needs a siege unit that will be able to land some hits while there is already loads of Zerglings/Ultra's, whatever... Having some small units running around, not even being able to get into melee to make damage is rather useless.
Zergs have problems breaking chokes because we are melee and weak units, yet in big numbers. We don't need yet another unit to clump up our chokes.
I believe somekind of siege unit with a projectile kind of attack instead of spawning a unit would be a better idea.
I don't have a problem with the design, but I hope the numbers are good enough. ex: The locust will be pretty good or maybe the swarm host will be cheap
On October 25 2011 01:39 sagefreke wrote: People in this thread are grossly underestimating the amount of damage these things can soak up. They have almost 90 hp per a locust! That means if you spread your SH out siege tanks will take a minimum of 2 shots to kill free units. And it's not like you can just ignore them either since the locusts deal fairly good dps.
SH is not a unit you just mass and win with. They're a support unit.
This.
People seems to get too attached to the video. Of course if you burrow a bunch of swarm host together, it doesn't look that good. But imagine, you burrow every 2 of them so that the minions are spawned at 2,3 sec interval, that would be much more effective. Moreover, normally Zerg army is suffered from the clump-up effect. No matter how well you spread your zergling, baneling, when you a move them, they will gradually clump up to gether. But with the swarm host, because the minions are rallied, you can choose where they need to rally to, ultimately you can make a swarm of units attacking to the enemy without getting clumped up. This alone makes the unit much more better than Broodlord, or infested terran.
I don't know why people are so upset about this. I really like the idea that the OP said to implement an interceptor like mechanic. This is my favorite unit that they are adding to the game from HoTS and I will be switching to zerg from protoss if they keep them in
okay its this: a t1.5-t2 unit, that has to burrow to go into siege mode to shoot ground target, but shoots air targets when unburrowed. This will only make it viable when zerg has burrow (t2), but helps at t1 to defend air.
It would solve the major problems of zerg: ZvZ midgame being to random and aggressive, zerg early anti air, and marine opness. It would even give more meaning to zerg range upgrades.
After some thought, I think having a swarm host, but with a Broodlord kind of attack would maybe be much better. In such a way, it would actually deal some damage on an initial hit as well as spawn some "broodlings".
Anyway, I'll let Blizzard decide what to give me... I'll have to play with what I get anyway It's not like my opinion will change that of Blizzards :D
I like them. It's more units on the field for the zerg, which to me is a good thing. Zerg needs to feel more "swarmy" and this is a step in the right direction.
The way I see it these units are to *force* your opponent to move or act. Currently, staggering siege tanks can make almost any player move, even in TvT, so the swarm host will now force terran to do something to deal with the swarm hosts which the zerg player can then counter, or move back, giving back ground that the zerg wants. It is not redundant, since it creates map control the other units don't. A brood lord can be kited by vikings, and infestors with infested terrans can just be ran from while the units die off on their own. Also, the range of a infestor is short enough that it is within siege tank range if scanned, and they die easily. Swarm host is long range and hard to pin down.
If this unit really is 200/100 cost i think it's terrible in this iteration. Zerg to me is all about droning like mad then getting powerful units at the very last second to defend. In order to build enough of these to stop an early mid-game push you would have to sacrifice quite a number of banelings or delay your spire by quite a bit. Even then, if you get a few out, the damage potential is not enough to force the terran or protoss to back up.
The only way i see this being worthwhile is giving the locusts a mini-baneling death splash, maybe 5-8 damage or so and making the spawn rate higher than 1 lifecycle of spawn life. By the time zerg is ready to push to attack and break a siege line, it usually is endgame, to which the placement of this unit would be hive tech, and therefore should be more powerful, but also overlaps to heavily with the broodlord.
I guess you could make an entirely spawn unit based army and it might be fun in casual games, but we'll have to see if these really make a difference.
I think they look awesome. They look slightly capable of burrow mirco by burrowing, releasing the locusts, and then unburrowing with support if they get in trouble. They don't seem to have a very long burrow or unburrow time and they wouldn't have much risk. Dunno though.
On October 25 2011 01:27 Stropheum wrote: I personally would never make a broodlord and hold position it over a ramp to my expansion for the entirety of a game, but I would definitely do this with swarm hosts. This was a common tactic in brood war and It'll make the game much more interesting in my opinion
Yes it was common with Lurkers.... But this is no Lurker. 8 Marine drops rofl-stomp a single or maybe two SwarmHosts very hard. I dont even believe the Locusts will outdmg the medivac heal
Would you ask your plumber to fix your car? SH is NOT a drop counter, that is not its design, it is designed as a blocker, like sentry, battlecruisers and ultralisks.
Sure you could make it work, just as a sieged tanks in the mineral line could, but why would you put SH into the mineral line when they're better tools to deal with the drop, e.g. hydras or roaches?
In fact I would say with SH, drops are made WORSE, because now the SH can pretty much hold the fort while the roaches go deal with the mineral line drop, rendering the frontline unable to move forward when there's >5 90hp locusts per wave running down the ramp.
I had some concerns over this as well but after looking at how it is actually used (via the new unit videos) and having a long thought on the subject I am convinced it is not redundant.
Some key points: - The Swarm Host generate the units automatically. - The generated units are rallied. - The units have decent dps and health (they are basically uber-workers, not like a broodling or an infested terran). - The units do not need to do damage to be effective. They can basically lock the opponent into HAVING to defend a position even if they are not taking damage. If they stop defending it, they will actually take some serious and on-going damage from the generated units.
I guess the swarm host and maybe other units will be changed so that he does not have too much of overlapping with infestors and/or brood lords. Since the swam host generates units for free while the infestor is limited to a few infested terrans until he needs to wait a looong time for mana, I guess both units are cool so that you want to have both.
On October 25 2011 00:13 Umpteen wrote: The problem for me is they STILL haven't given Zerg a unit that can attack (repeatedly) while burrowed.
1 DT or 1 Banshee = Detect me now or I will fuck you up.
Swarm Host = Detect me at your leisure as I dispense small numbers of slow, armoured zerglings through your simcity towards ranged attackers at long intervals.
Yet again Zerg gets something that requires 10 times the investment to be useful.
If you find Zerg too difficult, you still can pick Protoss or (god beware!) Terran.
I consider Zerg a very strong race in the right hands. I play zerg myself and when I lose, I only blame myself. I don't even want Blizzard to make zerg easy because when I win, I know I earn it.
Well, to start I don't feel like the majority of the demos really showcased the full capabilities of the majority of these new units. For example, the anti-air ability of the warhound wasn't even shown. I mean, this thing is supposed to fill the role of the thor now against mutas...sounds like something important you'd want to show the audience.
The swarm host is another example. Can the SH only spawn units when the enemy is nearby? What's the duration of the locusts? How durable is the SH itself? Why were the SH all alone? Seems like a unit that needs to be guarded to be effective. Infestors would go great with them to fungal anything that tries to move forward and take them out, this should have been illustrated in the demo.
Now, what I did manage to see was that:
- Locusts are somewhat durable. - Locusts have very good dps. Although this is kind of hard to distinguish as some of the damage done was due to the friendly-fire of the tanks in the demo (another fail in showcasing the unit) - The respawn on the locusts looks like it takes too long - The locusts aren't fast enough, they need to be able to close the distance faster.
Now, if I can spawn the locusts without an enemy being nearby and if the movement speed gets a decent buff, these could potentially be good. The demo makes it seem like the optimal range in which they can be used is at least in your opponent's sight. If I can go further out though and the locusts are fast enough to get in and do even a little damage before getting blown to pieces, or having their duration expire then that's something to consider. Essentially, I would have a unit with greater range than any siege unit because the source of the locusts are safely far away, and not in a position that is immediately known. Not only that, but if they can still attack from far away this could give the zerg a chance to fortify the position with spines for protection of the SH.
However, if they in fact are as shitty as they looked in that video then I think they're out of a job. The viper looks like it does what the SH can do and more so far. It flies, it's probably faster, only requires a lair, and it has better abilities to combat a defensive player. I could use blinding cloud to mitigate damage if I decide to bust your line, and then there's abduct which looks like it's going to make sniping tanks/collosi very easy. Why do I need the SH at that point?
I'd really like to hear what JP, Artosis, and Day9 have to say about it on SOTG considering they actually got to play with them.
I'm pretty sure its going to be very good in a contain or slow push scenario. You'll have creep, can start setting up spine crawlers, they will be faster if they need to move back because of it, and I imagine the locusts will move faster as well on creep. Sitting outside someones base with swarm hosts, infestors, roach seems pretty nice. It's at least an interesting unit, I think it will have its own place in the zerg arsenal.
I think many fellow zerg read the design and were genuinely excited. after seeing the unit in action this fades quickly. It's not swarmy, it has 0 capability of destroying a fortified base.
When I first read about them, I was excited. I was hoping they'd be a reimagining of the lurker in the same way the brood lord was a reimagining of the guardian. Basically a trap unit where if the opponent wanders close to them, they get swarmed by hordes of disposable units.
However, having seen the video, I agree with the OP that there isn't a great use for the unit that is evident.
In terms of breaking tank lines, usually you'll wait and wait, then send everything at the tank line at once from as wide of an area as possible. Sure, you can use the swarm units to eat the first round of splash damage, but then what? By the time the next wave comes the battle will be long over. Also using an infestor to throw just a few infested terrans ahead of the army does the same. Remember that coccoons can absorb a few tank shots before they die.
For defense, 8 or more marines with medivacs to heal have really high dps. Would a few slow disposable melee units really help against that?
In the late game, sure it's great to have free units. However, what do you do against a bunch of planetary fortresses? I think when the opponent's army's dps get high enough, these swarm units just won't be able to close in to do any damage.
I think the problem stems from the fact that the unit is intended to have a long range and slow release frequency. Trickling in units is not really a great tactic, especially when there is no guaranteed damage unlike the broodlord. I would personally prefer the opposite: a shorter range unit with a fast release frequency, something that can be used to hold positions defensively, or something that can really do a lot of damage if you can burrow next to your opponent in the midst of the battle.
Not to start this again, but the Swarm Host really made me wonder why they didn't just implemend the Lurker.
Really it's almost the same thing, and I would prefer a "new" unit mechanic over a mechanic of an all excisting units (A unit firing smaller time based units).
i get that they can be good for soaking tank damage but is that really worth 200/100? Couldn't i just send some lings in first?
I don't get how this makes zerg any safer to the marine/tank play that everyone uses. A group of 16 marines and 2 medivacs would laugh at swarm hosts defending an expansion or some area of the map. The would kill the locusts before they every got to the marines and then they wont fire again for 18 seconds? What the fuck? How are these worth it?
On October 25 2011 01:37 Sueco wrote: The thing is that Swarm hosts are infestor pit timing, i.e. you'll barely have any up to stop the 9-minute siege tank-marine push. The lurker coming from the t1 hydra was available in time.
Very good point! The same thing applies to Infestor, which can potentionally stop the Marine/tank push, but the timing for them to come out is so narrow that u have to rush to them and miss army
Didn't the lurker upgrade require lair tech though? This is comparing apples and oranges, but both are T2.5 units. And I doubt you would want to rush to them to defend a 3 tank push. They're for a little later in the game once your economy has stabilized and you need to lock down positions defensively or aggressively
When I first heard about the swarm host, I was imagining something along the lines of the same attack speed as a Broodlord, but it would spit out three broodlings instead of just one, so that three swarm hosts would create basically an impassible mob of broodlings everywhere. And maybe the broodlings would have a longer despawn timer than normal so the longer they were burrowed, the larger the swarm got.
If the unit ends up being underpowered, there are 2 stats that they can tweak that both add incredible amounts to this unit: Cooldown on spawning units duration of units spawned
If these are both buffed the unit will become devestating, so if we all find it useless, lean on blizz to change these numbers.
Either that or add the hunter-ling jump (from hots single player) to the locusts, perhaps as an upgrade.
On that train of thought, there can easily be a hive tech upgrade to allow them to jump cliffs, or maybe spawn more often/longer durations.
The unit is a good enough concept idea that there are enough ways for them to buff it to make it possible to use in the situations they want without being overpowered that I am confident it will become a core support unit.
On October 25 2011 02:26 Amestir wrote: Not to start this again, but the Swarm Host really made me wonder why they didn't just implemend the Lurker.
Really it's almost the same thing, and I would prefer a "new" unit mechanic over a mechanic of an all excisting units (A unit firing smaller time based units).
How is it the same thing? The lurker is for controlling space, the swarm host is a siege unit.
The only thing they have in common is that both work when burrowed.
The major problem I have with the SH is that it's basically just a downgraded lurker.
I really don't know why Blizzard keeps dancing around the lurker issue so much. They know fans want it, and they always say that they're willing to put it in if they need to, yet they decide to sidestep the issue and put a pseudo-lurker in the game.
The SH isn't very zergy in my opinion. There's more to zerg than just numbers, rather it's the very agile and aggressive way they attack that adds to the zerg feel. The SH is just a slow, leap-frog unit like the siege tank, which isn't zergy at all. The lurker actually captured the feel because not only was it a space-controlling siege unit, it was also very FAST. Lurkers charged into the frontlines with the zerglings, really making it feel like the opponent was being overwhelmed. And the fact that they had great positional play and micro potential added to the appeal.
The fact that the SH uses units instead of projectiles is a major weakness since it means that anyone with a brain is just gonna micro the locusts to death. Stutter-micro marines and blink stalkers will ensure that locusts never do any real damage in a pro-level fight, and SHs seem like they are intended to be the slow siege unit, and that slow speed really harms them too.
But really, I'd rather Blizzard just put the lurker back in. This is a sequel, sequels should be BETTER than their predecessors, not worse. If all Blizzard is gonna do is add watered-down versions of their old units, then just put the old units back in.
On October 25 2011 02:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Well, to start I don't feel like the majority of the demos really showcased the full capabilities of the majority of these new units. For example, the anti-air ability of the warhound wasn't even shown. I mean, this thing is supposed to fill the role of the thor now against mutas...sounds like something important you'd want to show the audience.
The swarm host is another example. Can the SH only spawn units when the enemy is nearby? What's the duration of the locusts? How durable is the SH itself? Why were the SH all alone? Seems like a unit that needs to be guarded to be effective. Infestors would go great with them to fungal anything that tries to move forward and take them out, this should have been illustrated in the demo.
Now, what I did manage to see was that:
- Locusts are somewhat durable. - Locusts have very good dps. Although this is kind of hard to distinguish as some of the damage done was due to the friendly-fire of the tanks in the demo (another fail in showcasing the unit) - The respawn on the locusts looks like it takes too long - The locusts aren't fast enough, they need to be able to close the distance faster.
Now, if I can spawn the locusts without an enemy being nearby and if the movement speed gets a decent buff, these could potentially be good. The demo makes it seem like the optimal range in which they can be used is at least in your opponent's sight. If I can go further out though and the locusts are fast enough to get in and do even a little damage before getting blown to pieces, or having their duration expire then that's something to consider. Essentially, I would have a unit with greater range than any siege unit because the source of the locusts are safely far away, and not in a position that is immediately known. Not only that, but if they can still attack from far away this could give the zerg a chance to fortify the position with spines for protection of the SH.
However, if they in fact are as shitty as they looked in that video then I think they're out of a job. The viper looks like it does what the SH can do and more so far. It flies, it's probably faster, only requires a lair, and it has better abilities to combat a defensive player. I could use blinding cloud to mitigate damage if I decide to bust your line, and then there's abduct which looks like it's going to make sniping tanks/collosi very easy. Why do I need the SH at that point?
I'd really like to hear what JP, Artosis, and Day9 have to say about it on SOTG considering they actually got to play with them.
SH act like catapults in WC2, allowing you to continuously "fire" at a specific area when rallied, keep in mind you can do multi-rally points, You could technically spell your name out with them on the rally points. You could make them rally around in a circle, act as free cover for hydras. move with locusts ≥ burrow when they die ≥ rinse and repeat until you reach firing range and go to town.
Another MAJOR use is for turtling, with enough SH, you could turtle the shit out of the opponent, since 5 SH could effectively generate units over 2000+ total hp, I can assure you given their present stats, At least 9 siege tanks must be out before they can 1-shot the incoming locusts. Mass marauders can forget about even clearing the ramp since 90/20 is 5 shots to kill one locust, 25 barrelling down the slope means 25x5 marauders to one shot them as they inch up the ramp.. except you'll have enough infestors to FG them til the marauders die..
Edit: The next person who says Zerg are the mobile economy race I will flip my table, seriously, SC:BW Zerg never was that! That is purely a SC2 perception due to the creep and queen mechanic! You can't say I like BW but I don't like SH. They are mutually inclusive. The suffix to Zerg is S.W.A.R.M. learn it, please.
SH is most zergy thing since mass 3/3 adrenal ling rush.
On October 25 2011 00:00 Comprissent wrote: I think most of the redundancy is that these locusts aren't projectiles... Sieging an enemy is useless if they can shoot down these siege 'projectiles'. All it does is add a few more units to an attack, where you lose the food from these hosts in an attack. In order to actually give some map presence, these attacks need to be projectiles that can't be shot down (like tanks/broodlords)
Yep you can't avoid hit from broodlord, siege tank, collosus, but you can avoid and kill this locust.
Imagine 8 marines vs. lurker = lurker does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. tank = tank does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. broodlord = BL does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. swarm host = swarm host does no damage at all because his attack is killed before it hits.
But again we don't know cost of this unit. If it's something like 100/50 then it can be massable and quite deadly.
what i have heard it costs about 200/100, so not that massable.so it costs like 2 hydras.
But as alot have said idont really see this unit worke like a seige unit. i mean if a army have enough dps then the Swarm hosts will be totally overrun. sure you could use the locoust to lead a attack and then follow up with the rest of the army, but why not just have more units then?
my theory without having played the game or anything, i think you need to totally overrun the opponent with these guys like muta ling compositions, to sink all gas you have to these guys to make them work so you can actualy gring down some one with these units. hopefully they will be more powerful or cheaper so they can be used.
On October 25 2011 02:44 obbob wrote: This unit seems rather useless in an actually fight.
If i remembe,r it's 2 locusts every 15 seconds. Battles usually last around that time. So if you have an open engagement...
Swarmhost: lol death ball incoming here's 2 zerglings to help
Please watch the video before commenting. You can like pause the linked New units presentation youtube video, and you know, Youtube has this really cool feature called pause... and like you can actually count the locusts? Amazing, I know!
Maybe, you could drop a nydus, then drop some swarm hosts, make a few locusts and move away.There is of course a better option than that, this is just an idea.
Or, this coud help to tank the hydras?
this could be used for several OV drops to kill tech?(16 dmg is insane, tempest does 35)
On October 25 2011 02:44 obbob wrote: This unit seems rather useless in an actually fight.
If i remembe,r it's 2 locusts every 15 seconds. Battles usually last around that time. So if you have an open engagement...
Swarmhost: lol death ball incoming here's 2 zerglings to help
Please watch the video before commenting. You can like pause the linked New units presentation youtube video, and you know, Youtube has this really cool feature called pause... and like you can actually count the locusts? Amazing, I know!
What are you talking about? He is right. If SH spawns 2 units every 16 seconds when battle usually lasts like no more than 10 secdons then you probably better bought 3(?) roaches for that price.
On October 25 2011 02:55 DMII wrote: With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Uncontested? Man with their current speed and dps they won't kill opponent in 15 minutes..
maybe it should be modelled to weaver's locust swarm in dota. the locust attaches itself to a unit and it takes a specific number of attacks (regardless of damage value) to destroy it
On October 25 2011 02:49 IveReturned wrote: Swarm host can be micro'd, like spawning locusts and moving away. Don't look at the video only. look at the possibilities.
Maybe, you could drop a nydus, then drop some swarm hosts, make a few locusts and move away.There is of course a better option than that, this is just an idea.
Or, this coud help to tank the hydras?
this could be used for several OV drops to kill tech?(16 dmg is insane, tempest does 35)
Use as bait?
Use to block the ramp , or defend the expo?
Clean the aftermath of the big clash?
The biggest use I see this is as fodder generator for Hydras pre-Hive as they advance.
I think most people fail to see the amazing synergy of the two new zerg units.
Blinding Cloud will almost guarantee your locusts to reach the enemy without getting cleaned up beforehand and the dragging ability allows you to snipe detectors. With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Also, if you repeatedly send locusts into a cetain area, they can serve as space control, since your opponent will dislike taking damage from free units and likely choose a different path to attack you. You will need a few, but you should be able to control different areas of a map like this.
this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
On October 25 2011 02:55 DMII wrote: I think most people fail to see the amazing synergy of the two new zerg units.
Blinding Cloud will almost guarantee your locusts to reach the enemy without getting cleaned up beforehand and the dragging ability allows you to snipe detectors. With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Also, if you repeatedly send locusts into a cetain area, they can serve as space control, since your opponent will dislike taking damage from free units and likely choose a different path to attack you. You will need a few, but you should be able to control different areas of a map like this.
Great idea! The locusts will reach the enemies with the blinding cloud. Since it is mainly used for siege, small chokes and tight areas will be ruled by these.
Maybe add some hydras, and increase the damage output insanely.
I am a hydra lover and I wanna see them used more. :D:D
On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote: this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
And tbh this is a terrible implementation at the moment. Perhaps if it spammed out many weak units, aka. Zerglings streaming in, I'd like it. Those Locusts are rubbish.
On October 25 2011 02:55 DMII wrote: I think most people fail to see the amazing synergy of the two new zerg units.
Blinding Cloud will almost guarantee your locusts to reach the enemy without getting cleaned up beforehand and the dragging ability allows you to snipe detectors. With the ability to grant detection you can even snipe observers pretty easily. Without detection Swarm hosts go completely uncontested.
Also, if you repeatedly send locusts into a cetain area, they can serve as space control, since your opponent will dislike taking damage from free units and likely choose a different path to attack you. You will need a few, but you should be able to control different areas of a map like this.
Great idea! The locusts will reach the enemies with the blinding cloud. Since it is mainly used for siege, small chokes and tight areas will be ruled by these.
Maybe add some hydras, and increase the damage output insanely.
I am a hydra lover and I wanna see them used more. :D:D
Blinding cloud has to be cast on the enemy units. Why not just use them and lings?
And tbh this is a terrible implementation at the moment. Perhaps if it spammed out many weak units, aka. Zerglings streaming in, I'd like it. Those Locusts are rubbish.
Why use hatcheries and larvas to spawn mass zerglings anyway?
Blinding cloud has to be cast on the enemy units. Why not just use them and lings?
because its an attack that only costs energy and time (basically the same resource). No mins / gas / larva spent.
EDIT: however, I think the idea of a slow moving melee unit is a little dumb. Given that it only costs supply (because swarm lords count towards your supply cap and do nothing else), the locusts should have a limited siege capability. However, if they are to actually "hold ground" as intended, the locusts need a substantial speed bonus on creep.
As the game is now, whenever zerg loses an engagement, the enemy simply walks forward with obs / scans and zerg loses all their creep tumors.
Swarm lords should have a limited offensive capability, as shown in the video, but they should also be able to defend zerg territory. By giving the locust a movement speed bonus on creep, they are more useful defensively than offensively, which in my opinion is exactly how a ~free unit should function.
On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote: this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
You don't understand how wrong you are here. Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped.
Lurkers are one of my favorite units from BW, and I'm as sad to see them go as anyone else, but it doesn't take a genius to see that with the current state of units currently in the game, a lurker has an extemely tiny balance window, where anywhere outside that it's broken one way or the other. Having unit concepts with small balance windows means adding or changing anything no matter how minor can make them suddenly dominate or not get used.
The swarm host to compare, has a MASSIVE balance window. The reasoning here is that it has a lot of things about it that can be tweaked without findamentally changing the unit, allowing blizzard to balance the game how they want, and then tweak the swarm host so it fits with everything else.
it seems like these guys will be good for timing attack and sustained aggression. do a roach ling timing and burrow a few of them nearby for reinforcements. could see them being useful but not game breaking or anything like the viper
I think the Swarm Host is a fantastic idea for a new unit. There are a ton of uses that I can see...
-Late game low econ scenarios (when units lost really matters) -Late game "swarm build" compliment to broodlord (but not vulnerable to vikings) -Abusing the lack of cloak (burrowing a few next to an expansion mineral line, spread out so one scan can't spot them all, forcing defending siege tanks to unsiege or risk friendly firing own scvs) -general harassment (dropping and burrowing a few in protoss or terran main if they are light on detect, much like burrow roach harass is done) -Light contain/siege (as Dustin said... forcing the enemy to come out and engage your army, unless they want to constantly be attacked by locusts)
16 damage with < 1s firing rate is really high DPS, more than a hydra, so if those locusts go unchecked they are going to tear buildings apart quite easily. Most of all this unit is going to be very annoying to the enemy. Simply hearing the "we are under attack" message and having the mini-map flashing constantly is going to be an advantage in itself.
On October 25 2011 00:00 Comprissent wrote: I think most of the redundancy is that these locusts aren't projectiles... Sieging an enemy is useless if they can shoot down these siege 'projectiles'. All it does is add a few more units to an attack, where you lose the food from these hosts in an attack. In order to actually give some map presence, these attacks need to be projectiles that can't be shot down (like tanks/broodlords)
Yep you can't avoid hit from broodlord, siege tank, collosus, but you can avoid and kill this locust.
Imagine 8 marines vs. lurker = lurker does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. tank = tank does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. broodlord = BL does a lot of damage. 8 marines vs. swarm host = swarm host does no damage at all because his attack is killed before it hits.
But again we don't know cost of this unit. If it's something like 100/50 then it can be massable and quite deadly.
In the video they survived several tank shots and also fire from bunkers. I think they're pretty beefy and on creep should be a lot faster.
On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote: this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
You don't understand how wrong you are here. Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped.
They could definitely make lurkers work... They are too good because things clump up? What about siege tanks? Would they be too good if they costed 500/500? You can always tweak cost/damage to make something balanced. I don't even play zerg but I want to see lurkers. They make for far more interesting games both as a player and spectator. The swarm host looks incredibly boring.
I don't see any situation where this unit would ever be effective. Sure it can be used to "bump into" a siege from a camping terran/protoss but it in itself isn't going to do much. And with it only spitting out two units at a time with a pretty large amount of time between them then i'd rather just save the larva and supply and make an actual attack unit to add to my army instead of throwing these units at their wall to die and do barely any damage. The video they show only looks impressive because the bunch of tanks are doing splash to the bunkers.
Also, Using them as defense for say a 3rd or fourth wouldn't be too effective either because it would require quite a few of them to thwart a full medivac drop or something like that. and if you're making 5-10 swarm host just to defend one base then you're wasting supply. You're better off spending the supply on speedlings so they can both run to your base to defend it then go back to joining your army.
I don't know, I just don't see any situation where this unit is worth making.
The idea that blizzard was trying to sell us on is this: Siege Breaker.
Currently the way zerg works, no zerg player in their right mind would attempt to break a fortified terran or protoss position (without broods/fungal). The idea behind these units is the ability to apply pressure to a entrenched position to then launch your army from without taking massive losses due to splash and etc. The swarm host can also act tactically very similar to how the lurker operated in bw. Allow for containment, easier to defend chokes, easier to attack chokes, holding key positions cost efficiently.
These units will allow zerg to put the pressure back on our opponents when we decide that we want to.
On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote: this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
You don't understand how wrong you are here. Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped.
They could definitely make lurkers work... They are too good because things clump up? What about siege tanks? Would they be too good if they costed 500/500? You can always tweak cost/damage to make something balanced. I don't even play zerg but I want to see lurkers. They make for far more interesting games both as a player and spectator. The swarm host looks incredibly boring.
I am pretty sure that the SH will be used so often, it will make battles more interesting and harrasses more demolishing.
I agree that there are similarities but it feels like a very "Zergy" unit and a perfect new unit for the Swarm.
My only worry here is with these MASSIVE numbers of spawned units (Infested Terrans, Broodlings, and now Locusts) taking over the board, how will Protoss deal with the numbers on the ground effectively without needing large amounts of T3 units (Colo and HT specifically) and AoE in the mid-game.
On October 25 2011 02:58 Arcanne wrote: this is blizzards pride getting in the way of putting the lurker back into the game. can't directly admit they were wrong so they try something somewhat similar.
You don't understand how wrong you are here. Lurkers while a fun concept DO NOT WORK in SC2. The amount things clump up, combined with the other new units that each race has makes lurkers either instant-win or next to useless. They went through that gambit in alpha, and ended up getting scrapped.
They could definitely make lurkers work... They are too good because things clump up? What about siege tanks? Would they be too good if they costed 500/500? You can always tweak cost/damage to make something balanced. I don't even play zerg but I want to see lurkers. They make for far more interesting games both as a player and spectator. The swarm host looks incredibly boring.
you missed the second part, either they are too good or next to useless (like carrier currently is) Yes you can always tweak something to be balance if nothing else changes, and everything else is perfectly balanced. This is not the case, there will be a lot of balance tweaks to the game that will then break the lurker balance because it would be so hairline to make it work. If lurker were added in LotV I can see them possibly working, but they would be far too much of a pain to babysit through every balance patch from now until 'final balance' I also want to see lurkers, as a zerg player and spectator they are a lot of fun, but balance wise I can entirely understand them not being in the game.
Let's not forget just what "Zergy" means. It's the impression of being everywhere, due to space control, not necessarily huge numbers of units. It looks like the Swarm Host is most different from the Lurker in that it is unable to really control space (a field of Lurkers has the same effect as Siege Tanks: see first hit, shit pants, run away). I can't see the same impact being generated by the SH.
I hope they can make it such that the longer you burrow, it 'charges' up on the minion count, if any enemy comes near it, a large wave will be released in 1 shot. Balance the stats such that when used offensively, it is not 'op' but good enough to slowly kill off a dying turtling enemy. Its main purpose should be for zonal control, also can serve as a good food-efficient solution for drop defence.
your points aren't entirely valid, the swarm host in numbers has the capability to really wear down a defense... Infestors are more of a one time cast unit... Swarm Host is the best seige breaker unit so far... but combined with the Viper they kind of do the same thing... but together... they are a very useful boarder control tool!
I like the concept, but I feel like the damage and speed on the locusts needs to get upped a bit. Just so it controls space as well as a siege tank. Probably something like 6 locusts that move faster, have less health, do more damage. Also, have the locusts not die on a timer, but cap the number per swarm host to like, 2 waves. Basically, think speedlings, but free and weaker.
On October 25 2011 03:55 babysimba wrote: I hope they can make it such that the longer you burrow, it 'charges' up on the minion count, if any enemy comes near it, a large wave will be released in 1 shot. Balance the stats such that when used offensively, it is not 'op' but good enough to slowly kill off a dying turtling enemy. Its main purpose should be for zonal control, also can serve as a good food-efficient solution for drop defence.
I like this idea, like you can have choice, of constant harass, or a unit that is ambushy, like burrowed banelings but not so limited, and with more utility. I Like the idea of the unit then. It would solve both problem then. basically for 200/100, it feels like a shitty siege tank, that is not good at controlling space, and not that good at siegeing.the opponent.
i think the point of the swarm host is to stagger the units so that if you have 5 or 6 of them (or more) you can burrow them at different times and launch a consistent stream at your opponent. Especially when they are cushioned by roaches etc, it's just a constant stream of extra no expiration units
What made the lurker good in BW is that you need to burrow/unburrow it to get good positioning. This seems like a fire (burrow) and forget unit. I wasn't impressed at all.
And for all the problems it's causing, I don't get why they don't just fix the unit clumping to make units clump less. They removed muta stacking from BW and the viking flower from early SC2 because it makes it harder for people to count their opponents' units. Trying counting clumped up marines and zerglings. They already admitted that HoTS is basically a reset balance-wise anyway.
On October 25 2011 04:26 andrewlt wrote: What made the lurker good in BW is that you need to burrow/unburrow it to get good positioning. This seems like a fire (burrow) and forget unit. I wasn't impressed at all.
And for all the problems it's causing, I don't get why they don't just fix the unit clumping to make units clump less. They removed muta stacking from BW and the viking flower from early SC2 because it makes it harder for people to count their opponents' units. Trying counting clumped up marines and zerglings. They already admitted that HoTS is basically a reset balance-wise anyway.
Yeah, I was hoping they'd do some drastic changes like increase the radius of everything and change all the speeds and times to be played on normal speed.
On October 25 2011 04:40 SpoR wrote: MY two cents:
The name of the unit sucks. really bad. The look of the unit sucks. really bad. The use/ability of the unit is questionable.
It's no lurker, but as a zerg I will take whatever I can get and that's kind of sad to be honest.
I kind of like the OPs suggestion, reminds me of the old alpha spell the queen had where it casted a razor cloud of bugs or whatever.
Overall I just hope the locust launcher is useful.
Name/art are personal pref, and I won't really argue on those points (I'm not a big fan either)
It definitely is not the lurker and needs to stop being compared to the lurker in direct ways. It is very similar, and has a similar role. The key word there though is similar. The swarm host has the ability to do a lot of things the lurker couldn't, while not being able to do a lot the lurker could do. With correct balancing of the stats, and a possible hive upgrade to keep it viable at hive while not being overpowering at lair, I think the unit concept can go a long way, and does indeed fit themactically and balance wise with the zerg army.
Vs terran, the zerg army is un-deniably massively better versus a terran army that is moving or in a bad position. What the swarm host's design goal is, is to have something that forces the terran army to come out and engage you, as well as the minor inconvenience of forcing scans. Let's say a zerg manages to get a few of these outside the terran's base, and the terran pushes out and has enough that the zerg doesn't want to engage. The zerg then unburrows and pulls back while the terran kills the most recent wave of locusts and burrows again after the cooldown on locusts is up. Now a new wave of locusts hits the moving terran army, doing some minor damage. The terran continues across the map, being hit by waves of locusts as the swarm hosts unburrow - retreat - burrow over and over across the map, exactly like lurkers did in BW, just for different reasons. Finally once the terran is in the middle of the map, just moving onto creep, the rest of the zerg army hits along-side a wave of locusts, easily wiping out the whittled down terran force.
Or, you can retreat the swarm guardians to the sides, allowing the terran push out of their base, moving back in to continue sending locusts into the terran base, entirely cutting off reinforcements and possibly breaking the front for free.
My suggestion for a hive tech upgrade for them would be to give locusts the hunterling ability from the HotS single player, essentially cliff-hop and a 'charge' ability, along with possibly a speed upgrade. taking the unit from simply useful to whittle down at lair tech and making it a very credible threat at hive.
The name and aesthetics are excellent, in my opinion. I love the artwork, the walking animation could maybe use something. I love the look and name on the Locusts as well.
But I do have some problems with the mechanics. I think the idea to take away the timed life on locusts and replace it with a maximum number per Host, similar to interceptors and carriers, would work better, with one stipulation. Like interceptors, the locusts would also need a maximum range from which they could move away from the swarm host.
Also the speed at which the hosts respawn waves of locusts would need to be increased, but this is kept in check by the maximum number cap. Basically they would only be able to replenish the ranks, not generate a million units.
Lastly, if the swarm host unburrows, the locusts then go on a timer until they expire.
I can't really tell, but do you have control over the spawn? If so that would give them pretty big range. Also what happens if the first 2 don't die? do another 2 pop? I know they have timed life I'm just wondering if they are limited to 2.
The respawn rate is longer than the timed life on the locusts, so you will never have more than 2 per host with the current stats. Something that doesn't feel very swarmy to me considering the expenses of the swarm hosts.
For those not aware, it's 200/100, I'm not sure about the supply cost though.
On October 25 2011 05:07 GreatestThreat wrote: The respawn rate is longer than the timed life on the locusts, so you will never have more than 2 per host with the current stats. Something that doesn't feel very swarmy to me considering the expenses of the swarm hosts.
For those not aware, it's 200/100, I'm not sure about the supply cost though.
of course, this is subject to change since the game isnt out yet, discussing how usefull a unit which isnt even in beta yet is stupid
the swarm units need to move faster and the rate of spawning needs to be quicker. In fact it should just spawn mini-banelings that blow up for like 5 damage each in splash. I think all zergs are worried like I am that a terran bio army is just going to roll up on this, see the spawns and stim-kite-lol to victory... Protoss would probably just blink-snipe.
The video shows how the swarmers are blowing up an entrenched spawn... Well that doesn't really seem useful, isn't that the new zerg caster's job with the new 'dark swarm' ?
The lurker accomplished a few things; Giving zerg the ability to defend fixed positions, and the ability to attack requiring a detector to counter it. The lurker by itself was never meant to clear an entrenched defensive position. The spawns move so slowly I would imagine people stumbling on a lurker field and then just running away and taking no damage. In terms of comparing to siege tanks or colossus... Well it can't shoot over terrain gaps, can't shoot while unburrowed...
I'm not saying its a dumb idea, the idea has potential just right now seems to be implemented pretty poorly.
It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
On October 25 2011 05:24 RealReality wrote: The unit will be fixed b4 release if your brains too slow to actually see what it could possibly do perfected then there is no hope for you.
haha, all you do is go around trolling. it's kinda cute
Infested terran is not in the slightest the same as the swarm host, and you neglect the energy cost for infested terrans which perhaps is cheap but not free. Just because they both spawn units doesn't make them the same. For a infestor to launch 2 infested terran will cost you 50 energy, and I rather save that energy for fungals. Besides infestor can not lockdown pathways forever, which a swarm host could possibly do.
Broodlords can't be on there own like that they need a center army under them to work the best. Locking down pathways just make vulnerable. The fact that the swarm hosts has to burrow make them less fragile aswell for that purpose. Besides swarm host is not hive tech.
I like the concept of the unit in general, which is all I can comment about, perhaps not as good as a lurker but still, it could generate some good strategies, offensive and defensive.
Imagine sending twenty zerglings into a midgame ball of marine+tank (don't care if the tanks are sieged or not). How many marines die? How many tanks die? None, right? Now do it 15 seconds later. Still, none die. And again. None die. That's why the Swarm Lord isn't going to be able to break tank lines. Sending slow melee units into high DPS ranged units never works, even if the melee units are free. (And if the locusts get buffed to the point where they can break tank lines, then they'd just be too generically OP)
This new unit sounds like it'd only be useful in an actual fight, where you'd get some locusts to host on... more other units? It's not like the locust itself does anything special.
Also, it bothers me that zerg still doesn't have a unit that can attack while cloaked...
I feel like Blizz is trying so hard to make a lurker-esque unit here, but they're too stubborn to actually bring back the lurker, and so we get this funky unit that spawns shit that can be kited and killed every 15 damn seconds. Blizz, we won't hate you if you bring the lurker back...seriously.
1 lurker never did anything. it was when you had 2/3 on a choke that denied terran bio. or 10-12 that contained a toss with observer sniping and lings lings lings.
so will 3 spawn hosts protect a ramp? i cant imagine it could. they attack. rines stim get medic healed and kill the hostlings. and continue up the ramp.
will 10-12 contain a toss? they attack, cannons/stalkers/zealots kill the hostlings and continue massing up.
only with an added range unit, will spawn hosts kill things. as opposed to a lurker, which needed a melee unit, to get into position to kill things. it will defend chokes, it will be a droppable harras unit.
Swarm host looks gay of fu imo. A slow DPS siege unit? The reason AOE 'siege' units were made was to do quick damage (penalize mistakes) and with the swarm host it looks as though it's just another unit for terrans to practice marine micro on.
I think blizzard could have been a bit more innovative when it came to this unit, its pretty boring almost like building a spine crawler. On the other hand I also think the lurker would be a bad idea for sc2. The fact that units clump big time will make blizzard nerf the crap out of the unit. I think with so many free units infested terrans, broodlings and now this it might be too much considering how i hate facing infested terran and broodlings already.
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
Precisely. It performs the role of breaking tank lines at tier 2 instead of tier 3. That is a totally different purpose than Lurker, no comparison between the two is relevant.
People who want it to spawn weaker units faster are ignoring the tank value of the unit. The one thing zerg needs to charge tanks is a zealotish unit to soak up 2 shots while the lings follow behind.
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
Really great 8th post! Nice to see someone who put some critical thought in to their response.
I agree that Swarm hosts are ZvT favored, however i think they can also be used to over run a postion.
As it is right now, if the Zerg kills an army of P or T for that matter they really can't choose to just counter attack and win the game, its risky. We often have to take that advantage, by getting up more drones, and bases.
Though i feel with the swarm host is allows Zergs to potentially overrun a fortified position, or at least pressured a defensive position. Making it harder for that player to get back in to the game. Right now its to obvious what a Zerg player would favor to do.
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
They are saying that it's intended for "map control" though, which I doubt it can do effectively. It's a great support unit in battles since it'll generate free cannon fodder, but it wouldn't be able to control area nearly as well as Lurkers can.
I think he unit would fit better if it pop weaker locust but more often. 2 locust every 15s feel weak. The locust themself are pretty good ( 110 hp, 14 dps for free ) but against a medium fortify position, you will need so many swarm host to even do something usefull.
It's the kind of unit who scale a lot with numbers, but in direct battle they will not be that good. Battle occur, they spawn locust once.. battle end before the second wave occur. :/
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
They are saying that it's intended for "map control" though, which I doubt it can do effectively. It's a great support unit in battles since it'll generate free cannon fodder, but it wouldn't be able to control area nearly as well as Lurkers can.
How so? What made lurkers so much better at map control?
People are crazy if they think this isn't a great unit. it currently fulfills a role that nothing in the Zerg arsenal does right now. Basically broodlords at lair tech, with longer range, can't be hit by air, and the locusts have far more HP and dps than broodlings.
I don't understand the bitching at all. I really don't.
I see huge potensial for this as a harrash unit though, burrow one of these at edges of every opponents base and suddenly they will have to spread out a lot and really stretch their multitasking.
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
They are saying that it's intended for "map control" though, which I doubt it can do effectively. It's a great support unit in battles since it'll generate free cannon fodder, but it wouldn't be able to control area nearly as well as Lurkers can.
How so? What made lurkers so much better at map control?
Swarm host just generates really tanky units that can delay (I'm assuming locusts will not deal much damage, just tank like a boss), but not hold on their own. Lurkers however dealt decent damage + line splash, and could hold chokes and areas fairly well on their own.
Not only the damage, but the fact that the Lurker is "cloaked" when its burrowed, whereas the Swarm Hosts' locusts are not burrowed and will die quickly. Several Lurkers will ward off large numbers of Zealots in PvZ pre-obs because Protoss cannot do anything about the Lurker, but against a Swarm host in similar situation, Zealots could potentially just kill the locusts and then raze the expansion before locusts respawn or reinforcements
Make the locust spawn at 6 away from the Swarm Host, make them move slightly faster, and reduce their respawn rate (down to 5 or 10 seconds from 15). I feel like that would be "swarmy" enough
edit: but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it's fine now (though... 12 seconds or whatever would still be nice, lol)
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
They are saying that it's intended for "map control" though, which I doubt it can do effectively. It's a great support unit in battles since it'll generate free cannon fodder, but it wouldn't be able to control area nearly as well as Lurkers can.
How so? What made lurkers so much better at map control?
Swarm host just generates really tanky units that can delay (I'm assuming locusts will not deal much damage, just tank like a boss), but not hold on their own. Lurkers however dealt decent damage + line splash, and could hold chokes and areas fairly well on their own.
The locusts actually deal nice damage. 14 dps, that's like 3 marines.
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
They are saying that it's intended for "map control" though, which I doubt it can do effectively. It's a great support unit in battles since it'll generate free cannon fodder, but it wouldn't be able to control area nearly as well as Lurkers can.
How so? What made lurkers so much better at map control?
Swarm host just generates really tanky units that can delay (I'm assuming locusts will not deal much damage, just tank like a boss), but not hold on their own. Lurkers however dealt decent damage + line splash, and could hold chokes and areas fairly well on their own.
I dunno, I guess I just saw lurkers always being used to delay more then actually deal damage. It was nice when the Terran player messed up and sent a huge ball of marines to their death, but it never seemed like it happened that often and it was usually a dance of positioning tanks vs positioning lurkers.
The biggest problem I have with Swarm Host (concern?) is that the damage can essentially be intercepted before being inflicted on the opponent.
Every other 'ranged' unit in the game has an instant attack which can do damage against any number of other units. You can't intercept or stop a siege tank hit, or collosi, or yes even a broodlord as they do intial on hit damage.
I can see swarm hosts being completely nullified against a massive siege tank line, what they are designed to try and counter, but the tanks simply taking out the melee units before they get in range after a critical number of tanks is reached. Once more leaves us with no ability to counter the tank lines.
I think they will be balanced fine in every way, and i'd rather have the SH over the lurker. Broodling spawn is horrifying against a terran with siegetanks, and these things are alot hardier and almost op.
Let's say you drop 2 of these with an infestor into his base. The DPS and hardiness of these guys will probably shred bio to partyhats even without a fungal.
The tank will probably still outrange it, but hell, you can abduct any brave leapfrogging tank to your killing pit of locust with the new viper.
The locusts actually deal nice damage. 14 dps, that's like 3 marines.
1) they are melee 2) they take years to finally spawn 3) its a failed concept
1) means most of them will die before even coming close to its target. AND most important: you cannot use them to focus fire. 2) means you wait for a wave, stim, scan, kill. Toss should have zero problems due to observer and blink. 3) It should be the Zerg "zoning unit" but doesnt create a zone. Locusts spawn in pattern, not when a enemy comes into Range (you have to rally them - are they even on a-move?). Nobody will back off if there are 5 Hosts burrowed - unlike if there are 5 tanks sieged. The damage is just ridicolous low. Yes the DPS seems high at the first glance (twice an infested marine) but if you look to the video you see: the range seems extremely short and all that 9 (!) swarmhosts seem to accomplish ist killing a bunker with the aid of siegetank splash (thats 400 dmg coming from 18 Locusts).
On October 25 2011 06:21 Peleus wrote: The biggest problem I have with Swarm Host (concern?) is that the damage can essentially be intercepted before being inflicted on the opponent.
Every other 'ranged' unit in the game has an instant attack which can do damage against any number of other units. You can't intercept or stop a siege tank hit, or collosi, or yes even a broodlord as they do intial on hit damage.
I can see swarm hosts being completely nullified against a massive siege tank line, what they are designed to try and counter, but the tanks simply taking out the melee units before they get in range after a critical number of tanks is reached. Once more leaves us with no ability to counter the tank lines.
I agree with this, although there's certainly ways to work around it (Blinding Cloud), it still seems like this unit isn't really the "siege attacker" it's supposed to be.
Why not give it an initial strike, like the Brood Lord? Then it's able to chip away a little bit over time, even against a really well-entrenched position. You could make it stylish and unique, like, newly hatched Locusts are covered in acidic slime for a couple seconds, splattering it around as they go. Kill a fresh locust, get gooped.
The infestor is a caster unit that requires energy to use its abilities, the swarm host does not. It just spits out units over a period of time and is pretty good for controlling a choke point, Infestors are not the best at controlling locations on the map they slow down a push or allow your push to kill units trying to escape/kite. I would prefer to use the infestor energy to Fungle/Mind control rather than deploy infested terrans, but Infestors can sneak into enemy lines for extra damage a swarmling cannot as easily(I could envision Swarm ling drops into a mineral line =) that might be a little fun)
Brood lords are hive tech and are much more powerful but very weak vs air units. sure they deal damage and summon a unit that can offer a way to soak damage, which can be considered like the swarm host or vice versa, but the Swarm host is available off of Lair tech and is much cheaper also not as easy to kill if given the right protection(same goes for Brood lords)
This unit has a very swarm like feel, I do not see things attacking thru a choke with 8+ of these burrowed there, at least not easily and freely. Brood lords and Infestors Do not offer much(Trolls will be trolls, I understand they do offer some map control just not as much) in the ways of map control these Swarm hosts allow you to effectively lock down a choke point with a handful of units instead of forcing your swarm army to head on/flank an army going up your choke point your able to soften them up while they attempt to break the defense line.
Some in the thread say that these will be useless because they are not a ranged attack.... When trying to break a siege tank line as it is now zergs are forced to sacrifce a few infestors energy to toss infested terrans to draw siege tank shots away from the lings/banes so they can at least almost make melee range before getting hit by the 2nd volley, with the swarm host any zerg will be able to send waves of units into the seige lines and force it to fire upon re-spawning units that cost nothing. I see a great many uses for this unit.
I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Actually I think this seems like a super unit, and although I was bitter and butthurt first from HotS announcements due to shredders obviously being sooo OP, I must say I've become pretty psyched today because the Swarm Hosts are so promising. I mean, those locusts seem to be able to take quite a beating at ("currently") 90 hp. I can look back at quite a few games where I would have loved to have a SH. just imagine what they will do to an advancing tank/marine push, or hellions trying to get into your mineral line! Also at 14 dps I think those locusts can be quite promising. 3 secs and that's a dead marine.
Obviously (?) you can't argue that they are useless with arguments like "the terran will just scan and move his siege tanks forward" etc. You can say that about every unit in a way that makes them seem worthless. "Hellions? The zergs will just make roaches and queens and stop them, they are worthless". Every unit will need to be used with others and synergize with them to really shine. I would guess. Well, hellions do kind of good on their own. But anyway. You get what I mean.
Edit: I am presupposing that the locusts are on a-move when spawned. Everything else would be... fail? Also, yes, I am a bit worried about the locustsa being mitigated by a critical amount of for example siege tank volleys before they even reach their destination.
On October 25 2011 05:22 Sicariidae wrote: It seems to me like people are really failing to understand that it is intended as a support unit.
I would say that it is more aimed at ZvT, rather than ZvP, and is mainly aimed at helping to break Seige Tank lines.
People saying that the weakness of it is how Seige Tanks will unseige and kill it, are failing to see that they have achieved their goal already. The moment they unseige, you swarm with Zerglings and Banelings.
Obviously, on their own they are weak. But, the same can be said for Brood Lords.
From what I understand, they are available at Lair tech. So, they are not intended to be strong late-game units. They are aimed at giving Zerg players a way of breaking Seige Tanks without having to tech to Hive.
They are saying that it's intended for "map control" though, which I doubt it can do effectively. It's a great support unit in battles since it'll generate free cannon fodder, but it wouldn't be able to control area nearly as well as Lurkers can.
How so? What made lurkers so much better at map control?
Swarm host just generates really tanky units that can delay (I'm assuming locusts will not deal much damage, just tank like a boss), but not hold on their own. Lurkers however dealt decent damage + line splash, and could hold chokes and areas fairly well on their own.
I dunno, I guess I just saw lurkers always being used to delay more then actually deal damage. It was nice when the Terran player messed up and sent a huge ball of marines to their death, but it never seemed like it happened that often and it was usually a dance of positioning tanks vs positioning lurkers.
In ZvT they did delay, in the sense that it kept Terrans in their base pre-Vessel due to risks of 2 stop Lurkers decimating an entire army of MnM, and how well they hold choke points to expansions. Late-game, areas controlled by Lurker + Swarm was nigh impossible to break without Vessels .. In PvZ they also were used to delay, but controlled area superbly well (ever get Lurker contained? rofl ..). Swarm Host seems inferior in its ability to delay or control area.
Like said after I edited my post, the Lurker's other advantage is that its totally cloaked, instead of being partially cloaked. Swarm Host's attack being reliant on visible Locusts will be shot down quickly by a high-DPS ball (think marine/marauder medivac double drop). An area controlled/protected by several Lurkers will be infinitely safer than an area controlled by several Swarm Hosts because of the advantages of having a line-splash damage attack that is difficult to avoid, versus the spawning of locusts that can be kited or dodged while all the Drones/hatcheries get killed.
Same applies for PvZ, where attacking into an expo protected by Lurkers pre-obs is a insane risk that will probably ensure a quick death of your army, versus Swarm Hosts' locusts that can be force-fielded while the Protoss force deals its damage (then recalls away).
yup actually when i was reading the new units (before i realized they added 2-3 units for each race and not just zerg), i thought they removed the infestor and replaced it with swarm host + viper xD
Idk though, i think it definitely needs readjusting. A locust kind of feel sounds really cool. Maybe it could lifesteal? (probably too wc3-ish some people would say).
On October 25 2011 06:30 FaCE_1 wrote: video is funny.. If you see this, you just unsiegem,, run scan and rape those strange little thing lol.
Then the zerg army attacks while everything is unsieged =) ending your game =(
or Locusts just get slowed by Marauders, making them even more useless and the Locusts get mowed down before they even reach a bunker due to the sheer insanity of Terran DPS
A locust is a slow, melee only roach. How many slow, melee only roaches can you see getting into range of a bunch of Marines? Let's be charitable and suppose every single locust gets a hit in before dying. That means a swarm host, costing 200/100, will achieve a grand total of 2dps.
These things are NOT lair tech broodlords. They allow you to do something for free that you wouldn't pay to do because it's pointless.
Honestly, who would repeatedly rally a dozen slowlings towards the enemy or into an expansion in the midgame and expect anything to come of it? New Zerg unit: The Auto-Bronze.
Meanwhile, for similar money, Terran gets... a 20 dps aoe perma-storm?
What this unit needs is to make locusts smaller, weaker, fragile, move faster, and made faster. The Swarm Host should just spawn locusts continuously without delay.
the funny thing is in the demonstration vid with the swarm host is that the locusts werent doing barely any dmg to the bunkers. most of that damage came from the tanks splash dmg. the marines alone could have honestly just kited, moved the tanks up, scaned, and sieged the hosts during there atk cooldown.
i can see it needing a buff or it will have to be changed entirely.
my ideas were 1) increasing the ammount of locusts spawned to 4 even if its a hive tech upgrade.
or 2) decreasing the cooldown from 15 seconds to 5 seconds.
or 3) make it to where the unit LAUNCHES the locust eggs once every 15 seconds. the eggs do 55 impact splash damage and spawns 1 locust upon impact.
You people act like the Swarm Host is built to be used by itself. You supplement it with protective units (Lings/Banelings/Mutas) to protect them if an opponent decides to push up against them. Its the same concept as Tank/Marine. In my opinion its a great unit
On October 25 2011 06:56 KrUtiAL wrote: You people act like the Swarm Host is built to be used by itself. You supplement it with protective units (Lings/Banelings/Mutas) to protect them if an opponent decides to push up against them. Its the same concept as Tank/Marine. In my opinion its a great unit
It's like completely useless on its own, which is the problem. Lurker also needed supplementary units to be fully effective, but up until a certain point in all matchups, Lurkers did their job very well just by themselves, allowing Zergs to drone and tech up as needed. And once they were complemented by units and spells, they were truly a fearsome unit ..
I guess I wouldn't have as much of a problem if they didn't say that the Swarm Host was meant for controlling space, but instead a support/"siege" unit (which Lurker can do arguably just as well)
On October 25 2011 06:56 KrUtiAL wrote: You people act like the Swarm Host is built to be used by itself. You supplement it with protective units (Lings/Banelings/Mutas) to protect them if an opponent decides to push up against them. Its the same concept as Tank/Marine. In my opinion its a great unit
Tank way easier to maneuver and much higher rate of damage/better damage delivery.
On October 25 2011 06:56 KrUtiAL wrote: You people act like the Swarm Host is built to be used by itself. You supplement it with protective units (Lings/Banelings/Mutas) to protect them if an opponent decides to push up against them. Its the same concept as Tank/Marine. In my opinion its a great unit
The problem is that in between their "firing" times they are completely useless units, and thus are simply taking up resources and supply in your army... Thus if the terran has a large enough army he could just run forward and kill your army before the next spawn and then take care of the swarm hosts.
They do however seem like they make bio play a better option for a terran going up against this tech path... considering how dangerous they look against an immobile army with splash.
While I really like the unit concept I definitely think they may need a buff from what we see in the video, but I don't see blizz having a problem doing that. With the number of possible things they can change that can make the unit any degree of 'better' that they want while not making it overpowered
These can all even be lair or hive tech upgrades for it, and is all on top of the usual things that can be tweaked about a unit (damage/cost/health/etc)
Personally I'd rather have the more interesting thing be the hive upgrade, and we can get locusts hopping up and down cliffs and leaping into battle.
The idea that it takes 15 seconds for them to spawn new units is only fair, if they came out all the time, marines would have a hard time dealing with pathing/ getting past the locusts.
The idea i think is that you make the terran react, sure, on their own they suck, but with infestors or lings+ vipers in the back they are deadly!
Imagine the following, the locust comes out run for it and die, terran seizes the opportunity, scans and runs out, but this is like running into zerg "siege fire", fungals, lings and or banelings will have to close a shorter gap suddenly, which is what makes this unit so powerful. Remember, with Broodlords you can use micro / high ground / range to take them out with vikings for example, you don't risk your marines / tanks, you need only to fear the fungals hitting your vikings.
also, they are lair tech and burrows (even without burrow tech I assume). Which forces detection, especially for terran, requiring more scans or ravens being used.
Also they are great for defense, run out with spawned locusts for meat shield (90hp!!!!) and maximize damage with lings or even top it off with blinding cloud for maximum awesomess.
The idea that this functions like a siege tank is very much true, but instead of the siege fire itself being the danger, it is the risk of dealing with the unit that is high, Remember locusts just has a rally point, their range is far greater than a broodlord or siege tank and very much forces a reaction. It also does not suffer from friendly fire or splash which means you have to battle it head on.
i think it will solve a lot of issues for zerg and i for one will have a ton of fun using it, especially to pressure terrans more in the mid-early late game. definitly not a worthless unit and far more interesting than a lurker (a aoe spine crawler unit is not a siege unit in the same way)
I will most likely be very annoying. A bit like 1 DT can pretty annoying. Place 1 somewhat close to the oppnents main. They have to spend APM finding it or will start to tear the base apart. Shift click rally point to force wasted scans and such =) Constantly streaming them into the opponent fortifiction will be a good way to keep em busy and keep track of the opponent.
It's basically a lurker with a paint job (lair tech space controlling unit that is cheap on Larva). I'm sure they're going to balance the unit out by release, and then it'll serve the same purpose, which is very nice. This should give the zerg more options on 2 base lair tech, and will make the 3rd easier to take (whether it is before or after lair tech). Maybe it'll even give the zerg some tactical play (kill sequences) in conjunction with the viper on 2 base, which is just more welcomed variety.
On October 25 2011 06:56 KrUtiAL wrote: You people act like the Swarm Host is built to be used by itself. You supplement it with protective units (Lings/Banelings/Mutas) to protect them if an opponent decides to push up against them. Its the same concept as Tank/Marine. In my opinion its a great unit
Tank way easier to maneuver and much higher rate of damage/better damage delivery.
it has one thing every "space controlling" unit needs: SPLASH seriously, i think this unit sucks balls in its current state. why do we need more broodlings/infested terrans? we have zerglings that are in low numbers "free" as well. even better it's actually useless if your going ling/bane (blocking your units) and with roaches its redundant (they tank too). so you can use it to tank for your hydras at best. 2 free zerglings every 15 sec. that's a fucking joke and worth 1! egg you would have to sack for a pair of zerglings.
let it at least spawn banelings, they will still have to move from the swarm host to the tanks that they will never reach... or make it SWARM units. 15 sec for 2 units is ridiculously lame. 1 unit every 2 sec would be worthwhile to break a siege position. readjust stats so they are easily killed but theres just more and more swarming in. that could at least keep the tanks occupied with shooting them. even better just replace it with the lurker that's already in the game files or come up with a REAL siege unit, not this kind of crap.
On October 24 2011 23:57 Panzamelano wrote: and no... zerg doesnt need a carrier... the carrier was bad for 2 reasons. 1.incredibly hight tech cost. 2. took too long to get to it.
Umm, those things applied in BW and it was great in the right situations. They just need to tweak micro and make a cheaper AoE air unit like the corsair to combat vikings.
I'd rather have them come out more frequently and be weaker. Faster than a brood lord, but they die sooner. Maybe even more of them. Great idea though, this is a MUCH better concept than the infestor and I hope it eventually replaces it.
i would also like to point out that these small locusts guys took a beating from two bunkers and 5 (!!!) siege tanks, reached the bunkers did a little bit of damage, took another shelling and died, that's pretty damn tough, and 5 tanks are pretty much midgame at which point you could easily afford 4-5 of these, i really think they are a lot better than people think.
What if change their role to something, like scourges? That atacks ground and air, like banelings, but without splash, with low HP and low damage. So there will be many kamikaze-locusts, that flyes from Swarm Host to enemy targets, exploding on them and dealing small damage.
Remember flying scourge from RTS called "Perimeter"? It flyes in big numbers into your building or units, exploding, but dealing very small damage.
What if Swarm Host will generate something, like scourge, another temporary kamikazes, but without splash, but able to atack air and ground.
And look at early versions of Swarm Host. Previously we had flying locusts.
On October 25 2011 07:31 TWIX_Heaven wrote: i would also like to point out that these small locusts guys took a beating from two bunkers and 5 (!!!) siege tanks, reached the bunkers did a little bit of damage, took another shelling and died, that's pretty damn tough, and 5 tanks are pretty much midgame at which point you could easily afford 4-5 of these, i really think they are a lot better than people think.
I thought it was really impressive too. Too many haters hatin' in here!
On October 25 2011 07:30 0neder wrote: I'd rather have them come out more frequently and be weaker. Faster than a brood lord, but they die sooner. Maybe even more of them. Great idea though, this is a MUCH better concept than the infestor and I hope it eventually replaces it.
I'd be careful with the more/weaker concept, as they will quickly run out of melee-space on whatever they are attacking. I prefer the less higher hp/damage units. We need to consider the ability to stagger the locust spawns to create a steady stream of locusts, preventing splash from doing as much, and not giving time to counter.
Considering 12-15 mutas is a regular harass group of mutas, spend that instead on swarm hosts and you can have 2 locusts spawning every second and running at a terran base for no cost, remembering these things have 110 hp right now.
The shredder acts more like a lurker than the swarm hosts. It seems zerg will never get aoe damage that isn't melee... or both melee and suicidal. If they allow me to play aggressive to punish a fast expand then I guess they work well enough. It feels like they will only be useful for worker harass at undefended expos. They look terrible, but I can't really judge until I try it.
i wonder if you can do hold lurker style tricks with swarm hosts... i.e. have 5 or 6 burrowed swarm hosts somewhere, bait your enemy on top while hold position is on, then let them all spawn a wave of locusts at once so the melee units do good damage.
Don't see how that's better than burrowed banes though, I guess.
the thing is the swarm host seems like a tier 2 unit, and Zerg needs a siege unit in t2, or at least it would be welcome. saying the swarm host and infestor should be exclusive is like saying the HT and collossus should be exclusive for redundancy's sake, the fact is they do similar things but for very different reasons and in different ways. the Infested Terran deal lots of damage quickly if you use a lot of them, and the swarm hosts is more of a slowly dealing damage until you leave, like the difference between dropping a thor in your mineral line and putting siege tanks up out side your natural.
Fleeze, Zerglings are in no way free... mineral cost is small yes... But that's a larvae I could use on another unit... or drones... they are not free in the slightest...
So many people in this thread think they will be used Alone... and without any support what so ever... You ever seen collosi or siege tanks all alone? no never... stop being single minded and think about all the options zerg already have and the other new unit zerg have in combo with infestors would make them even more deadly .. from just the video(I know numbers etc will change before release don't troll) the siege tanks were unable to just Blast them down only after 3 shots did they die. that's a decent amount of damage soaking obviously they could move faster but Even if they stay with the exact way they are in the video they will be a great asset to any zerg that wants to either Hold their choke point from pesky harassing units like the hellion or to help push back a Terran siege line. I am very happy with this unit esp if supported properly this unit could be very good... obviously if you use them alone.. the wave gets cleared and then terran/zergs/protoss move up and clean them out. they need to be protected not left alone to die.
You wont be using it alone. Just dark cloud or whatever they called it(the viper ability) the enemy units and those little shits won't die right away mixed in with some zerglings n shit it'll most likely end up being pretty good.
These suckers look great if they're matched w/ hydra/ling. Hydras intercept any air play, and lings can smash into any foward push if the enemy decides to break out. If the opponent turtles, Zerg takes 4-5 bases like Zerg does best.
On October 25 2011 07:42 Nazarid wrote: Fleeze, Zerglings are in no way free... mineral cost is small yes... But that's a larvae I could use on another unit... or drones... they are not free in the slightest...
So many people in this thread think they will be used Alone... and without any support what so ever... You ever seen collosi or siege tanks all alone? no never... stop being single minded and think about all the options zerg already have and the other new unit zerg have in combo with infestors would make them even more deadly .. from just the video(I know numbers etc will change before release don't troll) the siege tanks were unable to just Blast them down only after 3 shots did they die. that's a decent amount of damage soaking obviously they could move faster but Even if they stay with the exact way they are in the video they will be a great asset to any zerg that wants to either Hold their choke point from pesky harassing units like the hellion or to help push back a Terran siege line. I am very happy with this unit esp if supported properly this unit could be very good... obviously if you use them alone.. the wave gets cleared and then terran/zergs/protoss move up and clean them out. they need to be protected not left alone to die.
the 1 spawn you will get in a fight is worth 2 zerglings. though you invested 200/100 (?) in the host. that is not worth it, you had better build pure zerglings. this thing spawns MELEE units which interferes with other zerg melee units as i said in my post.
holding a ramp against hellions with swarm hosts? why the hell would you do that? i believe the "broodlings" will be light. you know what hellions do to light units? and they are melee. how can melee units on a choke stop hellions... they will kill your swarm hosts too with the splash if you let the locusts stand there on hold position. btw you could use 3 roaches on hold right now to guard your choke against hellions much better than with swarm hosts. the spawning time of 15!!! sec will make siege lines laugh at you. with this giant timeframe even siege tanks are mobile and will take your swarm hosts out just after they spawned the locusts.
with the current design this unit is just fail. though there is room for improvement (i especially like the locust flyers idea) i think it would be best for the game to bring back the lurker instead of this half-hearted crap they didn't think about enough.
From what I played, it is definitely much different that broods and infestors. They can't be EMP'd, for one, the locusts have pretty high HP (90ish, I think), so they can actually cause friendly fire against terran and survive long enough against zealots for other things to happen, and even though they are slow, if you cover them with enough roaches, lings, mutas, etc, then there really isn't anything they can do, just make sure they don't get replicated.
EDIT: Not to mention Blinding Cloud makes these rather ridiculously OP against tank lines.
Really though, could people stop debating about something that's probably 7-8+ months away, and that we know little to nothing about?
I know it's been said. I know blizzard has talked about it. But seriously, no to the swarm host and put in the lurker.
The swarm host is just bland. There is no flavor to it. It doesn't help that much in a fight and will be overshadowed by other Zerg units.
The lurker was a perfect unit, there is no reason not to put it back in. Banelings have found themselves a nice niche that is far different from what lurkers were for in BW.
I really don't understand why it's not being implemented into this game. They already have the entire unit done besides the balancing. It is the cheapest thing for them to implement and there is no excuse for them not to.
On October 25 2011 07:42 Nazarid wrote: Fleeze, Zerglings are in no way free... mineral cost is small yes... But that's a larvae I could use on another unit... or drones... they are not free in the slightest...
So many people in this thread think they will be used Alone... and without any support what so ever... You ever seen collosi or siege tanks all alone? no never... stop being single minded and think about all the options zerg already have and the other new unit zerg have in combo with infestors would make them even more deadly .. from just the video(I know numbers etc will change before release don't troll) the siege tanks were unable to just Blast them down only after 3 shots did they die. that's a decent amount of damage soaking obviously they could move faster but Even if they stay with the exact way they are in the video they will be a great asset to any zerg that wants to either Hold their choke point from pesky harassing units like the hellion or to help push back a Terran siege line. I am very happy with this unit esp if supported properly this unit could be very good... obviously if you use them alone.. the wave gets cleared and then terran/zergs/protoss move up and clean them out. they need to be protected not left alone to die.
the 1 spawn you will get in a fight is worth 2 zerglings. though you invested 200/100 (?) in the host. that is not worth it, you had better build pure zerglings.
Zerglings that have over 100 hp each and do like twice the DPS.
On October 25 2011 08:02 Conquerer67 wrote: From what I played, it is definitely much different that broods and infestors. They can't be EMP'd, for one, the locusts have pretty high HP (90ish, I think), so they can actually cause friendly fire against terran and survive long enough against zealots for other things to happen, and even though they are slow, if you cover them with enough roaches, lings, mutas, etc, then there really isn't anything they can do, just make sure they don't get replicated.
EDIT: Not to mention Blinding Cloud makes these rather ridiculously OP against tank lines.
Really though, could people stop debating about something that's probably 7-8+ months away, and that we know little to nothing about?
and why exactly would you take swarm hosts with your viper instead of speedlings? this is exactly what the OP is stating.... redundant (and not space controlling).
Please blizzard bring back to lurker tech... i give blizzard a high five for being creative but, The swarm host is producing suicide melee units as isnt a good unit for sieging. The unit would be easly counted by (T) stim units, tanks and scans, & (P) obs with blink stalkers + sentry shields.
On October 25 2011 08:04 btlyger wrote: I know it's been said. I know blizzard has talked about it. But seriously, no to the swarm host and put in the lurker.
The swarm host is just bland. There is no flavor to it. It doesn't help that much in a fight and will be overshadowed by other Zerg units.
The lurker was a perfect unit, there is no reason not to put it back in. Banelings have found themselves a nice niche that is far different from what lurkers were for in BW.
I really don't understand why it's not being implemented into this game. They already have the entire unit done besides the balancing. It is the cheapest thing for them to implement and there is no excuse for them not to.
Why is everyone whining so much? So the swarm host isn't going to single handedly win the game for you, is that so bad? Were you really expecting to get a new super unit?
Look at the Warm Prism for a second. Everyone said it sucked originally, but with some special tactics it's amazing. I'm sure the same will happen with the swarm host.
On October 25 2011 08:02 Conquerer67 wrote: From what I played, it is definitely much different that broods and infestors. They can't be EMP'd, for one, the locusts have pretty high HP (90ish, I think), so they can actually cause friendly fire against terran and survive long enough against zealots for other things to happen, and even though they are slow, if you cover them with enough roaches, lings, mutas, etc, then there really isn't anything they can do, just make sure they don't get replicated.
EDIT: Not to mention Blinding Cloud makes these rather ridiculously OP against tank lines.
Really though, could people stop debating about something that's probably 7-8+ months away, and that we know little to nothing about?
and why exactly would you take swarm hosts with your viper instead of speedlings? this is exactly what the OP is stating.... redundant (and not space controlling).
yeeeah i actually like the "carrier" idea would make it alot like a shredder tho...which is what zerg needs but....
i just think any semblence of micro from the enemy will make this unit useless...im curious if a constant stream of weaker units would be better so it would be constant pressure.
Either that or spawn faster units because having slow melee units is no real threat to any player imo.
On October 25 2011 08:12 Nin-x wrote: Why is everyone whining so much? So the swarm host isn't going to single handedly win the game for you, is that so bad? Were you really expecting to get a new super unit?
we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
And look at early versions of Swarm Host. Previously we had flying locusts.
This version looks more useful. Make the locusts flying again so i can siege up outside the base and then go chip away at my opponent. This would be incredibly annoying. A invisible ground unit that spawns flying attackers. You would need to be prepared if you want to kill this version of the SH. It would also be very annoying to find one that is harassing a third. Please bring back this version.
On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote: we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol)
VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off.
The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone.
On October 25 2011 08:04 btlyger wrote: The lurker was a perfect unit, there is no reason not to put it back in. Banelings have found themselves a nice niche that is far different from what lurkers were for in BW.
lol I had almost forgotten that Banelings were the reason why Lurkers were removed .. because it was too much of a "role overlap" -_- when Swarm Host imo overlaps with Brood Lords
I don't think they are redundant at all... Infestors can't outrange tanks, while swarm hosts can. They are much better at controlling the map than infestors are.
One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
But it isn't a lurker. It's a siege unit. The range of its attack is huge. It's effective radius looks even larger than a siege tanks (atleast equal). The units job is to simply force enemies out of there defensive position because otherwse they'll keep comming under attack. And if you can force Terran or Protoss armies into open ground/creep to fight on zergs term then you've got a big advantange.
i played with the swarm host at blizzcon, it was fun but to be honest i was expecting something more original. it just didnt excite me too much and i found it kinda boring. its simply a burrowed broodlord of sorts. im more pleased with the other zerg and multiplayer changes
The range of it's attack is melee, its radius is one, the splash you saw was from tanks. And the reason we had to force units into the open was because of effective dps in a choke, with disruption web we can attack into chokes with banelings just fine, this unit serves no purpose other than harassment which ling runbys and infestors will do cheaper and better.
On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
I'll have my infestors waiting for the marines =) Small clumps of marines just love fungal
On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote: we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol)
VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off.
sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space.
The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone.
It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more.
On October 25 2011 08:40 Asymmetric wrote: But it isn't a lurker. It's a siege unit. The range of its attack is huge. It's effective radius looks even larger than a siege tanks (atleast equal). The units job is to simply force enemies out of there defensive position because otherwse they'll keep comming under attack. And if you can force Terran or Protoss armies into open ground/creep to fight on zergs term then you've got a big advantange.
This. I'm excited for this unit because it gives the hydra some use. Hydras are awful as attacking units, but could be pretty great in a defensive role.
On October 25 2011 08:40 Asymmetric wrote: But it isn't a lurker. It's a siege unit. The range of its attack is huge. It's effective radius looks even larger than a siege tanks (atleast equal). The units job is to simply force enemies out of there defensive position because otherwse they'll keep comming under attack. And if you can force Terran or Protoss armies into open ground/creep to fight on zergs term then you've got a big advantange.
why not just use blinding cloud and zerglings/roach/hydra?
yeah yeah, i know this is an SC2 discussion forum so we should be discussing all things SC2, but isnt it pretty useless to be discussing the viability of this unit before any of us even have a chance to test it in depth? We can all speculate and of course thats what this forum is for, but usually these types of threads are accompanied with stats and/or replays. Obviously we cant provide either, so what is the point of discussing the viability of a unit if we have no examples?
In terms of redundancy, i think this unit is different from Infestor and Broodlord by the fact that it requires no energy to produce its units and that it doesnt need to be in range of anything to start spawning shit out. Broodlords can only spawn its broodlings by getting in range of enemy units, which makes them vulnerable to vikings or blink stalks and such. Infested Terrans require energy that could be spent on other spells, meaning you better be sure those ITs are put in a good location (also putting Infestors in danger of getting killed). Swarm Hosts will require detection to combat, can produce units without even seeing the enemy, and dont need to save up energy to do it. I dunno, I think its subtly different enough to warrant a new unit
On October 24 2011 23:57 Panzamelano wrote: To be honest the "slow" spawn rate can be fixed by mannually burrowing your swarmhosts in groups of 2-3 instead of just burrowing them at the same time... giving you a steady line of locusts to attack.
On October 25 2011 08:40 Asymmetric wrote: But it isn't a lurker. It's a siege unit. The range of its attack is huge. It's effective radius looks even larger than a siege tanks (atleast equal). The units job is to simply force enemies out of there defensive position because otherwse they'll keep comming under attack. And if you can force Terran or Protoss armies into open ground/creep to fight on zergs term then you've got a big advantange.
On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
Don't you notice that they deliberately made Zerg the slow methodical grind race? Infact in the alpha of WoL it was even more the case; lurkers and a few other defensive options were still in the game. It's like they intentionally wanted Zerg to be the turtle race and creep across the map like a slow push from Terran in BW. I don't think that's a particularly good idea in my opinion though.
I'm in love with this unit - it's probably my favourite of the new units, from a purely design standpoint.
When differentiating Zerg siege from that of other races', this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for - not another 'long-ranged' unit, but one which technically has no range, but which just spawns melee units infinitely.
It gives Zerg an ability they just don't have at the moment. Did you see them 'outranging' siege tanks? Free is infinitely better than cheap, and zerglings aren't even cheap when you take larvae into account.
IMO this is an excellent solution to providing a seige type weapon for Zerg. Can you imagine giving z a tier 2 long range unit alongside fungal growth? I loved lurkers, but I much prefer this idea and I simply don't understand people saying this is unzergy.
I just watched Blizzcon Nestea vs MVP and I reckon Nestea would have given his eye teeth to have swarm hosts that match to pressure the middle (let alone blinding swarm)
I can think of some utility depending on the length of time swarms hosts can stay alive (and how long they take to spawn of course) - from what I've seen it's something like 10 seconds. (0:16 spawn time to 0:26-27'ish)
They don't need to be attacking anything, but you just burrow and rally? So you could just spawn them all over the map for scouting, checking for pylons, prevent expansions etc. If a terran is setting up a tank contain, you can send them down the ramp for free, if you had enough of them it'd be harder for them to just sit outside your base. This applies to heavily fortified positions as well. Or if they're dropping you a lot, you could leave a swarm host behind and at least have something there in addition to spines/spores.
I don't see how it could be completely useless - it all depends on how they balance the unit. If Blizzard decided they should spawn every 5 seconds and then explode for splash damage on death, do you think it'd be useful then? We'll have to see what they have planned.
these whining threads make me sick.. and I wonder if it's just the vocal majority speaking or not. You guys are discussing and arguing about stuff that's nowhere near complete, you ASSUME half of the stuff and IGNORE the other half of the stuff. Some even totally missing the point of this unit, it's pros and cons and potential uses, while claiming it fails at some role, while its purpose is somewhere else.
On October 25 2011 07:34 EnclaveUSA wrote: What if change their role to something, like scourges? That atacks ground and air, like banelings, but without splash, with low HP and low damage. So there will be many kamikaze-locusts, that flyes from Swarm Host to enemy targets, exploding on them and dealing small damage.
Remember flying scourge from RTS called "Perimeter"? It flyes in big numbers into your building or units, exploding, but dealing very small damage.
What if Swarm Host will generate something, like scourge, another temporary kamikazes, but without splash, but able to atack air and ground.
And look at early versions of Swarm Host. Previously we had flying locusts.
It reminds me of the Defiler's ultimate from Hero Attack, which sounds really cool.
The thing I don't get with it is that they said that "Terrans are going to hate when they get to the mineral line". I mean... it's just like getting in with burrowed infestors, only they can actually move/retreat, shoot down orbitals etc. Getting a swarm host into a mineral line sounds about as effective as hunting down pheonixes, open map, with hydras without creep.
On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
Don't you notice that they deliberately made Zerg the slow methodical grind race? Infact in the alpha of WoL it was even more the case; lurkers and a few other defensive options were still in the game. It's like they intentionally wanted Zerg to be the turtle race and creep across the map like a slow push from Terran in BW. I don't think that's a particularly good idea in my opinion though.
Zerg certainly doesn't play like it. That's the definition of marine-siege tank Terran.
On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote: we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol)
VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off.
sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space.
The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone.
It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more.
They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them.
On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote: we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol)
VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off.
sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space.
The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone.
It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more.
They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them.
i think my biggest problem is you get at the same time as a viper and i just dont see it being more useful then the viper in breaking defensice positions...but i think its definetly a have to wait and see thing
On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
Don't you notice that they deliberately made Zerg the slow methodical grind race? Infact in the alpha of WoL it was even more the case; lurkers and a few other defensive options were still in the game. It's like they intentionally wanted Zerg to be the turtle race and creep across the map like a slow push from Terran in BW. I don't think that's a particularly good idea in my opinion though.
Zerg certainly doesn't play like it. That's the definition of marine-siege tank Terran.
Its the definition of marine-siege tank, but marine-siege tank in SC2 A-moves pretty well because of how durable the marines have become and how much DPS that army has.
On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote: we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol)
VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off.
sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space.
The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone.
It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more.
They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them.
i think my biggest problem is you get at the same time as a viper and i just dont see it being more useful then the viper in breaking defensice positions...but i think its definetly a have to wait and see thing
Yeah, viper seems like a better choice all around.
I honestly love the idea of the SH. I just would like a spawn time buff, as a trade-off for a damage decrease.
As a composition, for a zerg player in the mid-game ZvT, I can definitely see zerg being able to safely navigate the mid-game with a few vipers casting their reverse dark swarm on any marines/siege tanks/hellions/whatever the terran makes, while 4-5 SH's are in position and lings and some blings too. Tell me of any way a terran is going to be able to deal with ALL of that, and be able to say that SH's are too underpowered? They are a SUPPORT unit, not a really heavy damage dealing unit such as the collosus or siege tank. They will work AMAZINGLY if you couple in 2-3 vipers with reverse dark swarm and heavily upgraded ling/bling.
On October 25 2011 08:14 Falcor wrote: we dont want a super unit we wanted a unit that could control space on a map. This unit needs to be with other units and if its with other units either the spawned units are going to get stuck behind your ranged units or going to be fighting for space with your zerglings.
edit: it has me curious tho depending on the life cycle of the spawns. there was a trick in dota back in the day were you would block 1 lane with creeps you could spawn...and let the creeps that your base spawn build up until there is a huge mass of units then let them go.
So could you hold position some roaches or w/e and block the spawns until a 2 or 3 waves have spawned and then let them go?
It does control space on the map, but i think you will have to help it a bit. For example, vs toss pick off the observer and they can't pass unless they are willing to take some damage. So pull the observer with your viper to pick it off, and toss will turn around i best. (Never see protoss players with more than 1 observer anyways lol)
VS terran the same applies. Put a few baneling bombs around the map and some swarm hosts elsewhere and the terran will have to scan all over the place to move. If a raven is out, pull it out with your viper and pick it off.
sooo like i said? but i think your over estimating the dmg this guy will do. sure if you let your units sit there and get hit it will work well. but im sure everyone has the basics of move stop command micro down. and with 15 seconds cooldown you should beable to deal with them quite easily unless theres units with them like i said. Which makes them alot less usefull imo. since a group of units alone would control that space.
The swarm host will control space, but you can't expect it to hold off a large force alone.
It shouldnt hold off a large force but it should delay it and i dont see it doing that. especially since the swarm host itself is such a slow unit. Its not like the lurker where once it was deteced could ru away and reburrow and delay them more.
They seem to do ok damage. If you had the same supply of swarm hosts as the enemy force, it looks like the swarm hosts come out ahead. It does look like it might be less useful in the late game, but again i'm sure someone will come up with some creative ways to use them.
i think my biggest problem is you get at the same time as a viper and i just dont see it being more useful then the viper in breaking defensice positions...but i think its definetly a have to wait and see thing
Yeah, viper seems like a better choice all around.
I think the Swarm Host needs to fall into the role of "clean up a lot of marines really fast" like the Lurker did. Let the Viper be the siege breaker.
I just wanted to say I love how people are calling the Viper's cloud "Reverse Dark Swarm" instead of "Disruption Web"
Other than that, yeah, Swarm Host needs to change in one way or another, I can think of a hundred different small changes that could be made to it to make it infinitely more useful while still having the same core ability.
For those saying "well the Terran is just going to stim up some marines and kill it while its reloading"
...
What do you think infestors do to complement broodlords? It'll be literally the exact same situation. If the terran tries to do that he'll take a few swift fungals to the dome and lose all of his marines. The purpose of this unit is to try to initiate a response from the terran, which I think it does extremely well. It'll end up with cool dances between siege tanks and Swarm Hosts maneuvering back and forth with their packs of lings/marines behind them. I think its an awesome unit choice.
hehe i like em, burrow spawn something unborrow run away, everyone wanted a siege unit, well can't be more siege unit then that lol. Anyway the weaker disruption web of the viper (don't know the name right now x3) isn't useful in all of the situations and doesn't provide constant support. What would you cloud if there are 6 bunkers and 8 tanks well spread and some marine blobs.
What i don't like is, omg something has more range then the siege tank, they can't do that. Will be really annoying having costless stuff run up to your marines and cause splash damage from the tanks and you won't even see the swarm hosts as they already unborrowed and ran away. Can't wait till they switch tank splash middle point to behind the target ^.^
Without knowing what tech it requires and so forth; if this is possible to get at early lair / pre-lair, it could be nice to just send one or two towards your opponent to keep them busy. In the early stages of the game, having to use scans etc instead of MULEs (if they want to push out on the host) it'll dig in to their economy.
A broodlord spawns 12 broodlings in the time it takes a SH to spawn 2 locusts. The combined HP of the broodlings are greater, they can't be intercepted on the way to the target, and they do more DPS than the SH does.
On October 25 2011 10:52 Peleus wrote: A broodlord spawns 12 broodlings in the time it takes a SH to spawn 2 locusts. The combined HP of the broodlings are greater, they can't be intercepted on the way to the target, and they do more DPS than the SH does.
I thought lurker was nice because of its splash damage and burrow, making it really tough to beat unless you had tanks. They kinda missed the point I think with swarm hosts. These units are just really boring. You're counting more on siege tank splash than the actual power of the locusts it seems.
On October 25 2011 10:52 Peleus wrote: A broodlord spawns 12 broodlings in the time it takes a SH to spawn 2 locusts. The combined HP of the broodlings are greater, they can't be intercepted on the way to the target, and they do more DPS than the SH does.
Why bother with the SH?
its lair not hive
Also harder to take down; faster, not hit by vikings, burrowed, etc.
We've got snow globes, so we can make the exact same unit against you! AHA! Take that! All of a sudden we're stuck in an epic, everlasting ww1 style swarm host vs swarm host in the middle of the map.
It seems to be a lot of people are forgetting the potential synergy that these units will have with the rest of the army.
People are saying "why not just make vipers?"... well Vipers are not as combative of units. They are support casters.
You will be sending a couple vipers, a handful of Swarm Hosts, ALONG with the rest of your army. Also don't forget Hydras are going to be actually useful off creep in HotS. That means you can have Viper AND SH backing up lings/roach/hydra.... and now think of the synergy these units have. Throw in a Spine Crawler or 2 and it's even stronger.
Send in the Locusts first, right as you throw out some Dark Swarms on the enemy. That will force them to melee range, where the locusts will easily be able to take the first, while the rest of your army is holding the line. If they try to run, surround with Lings.
This makes it much, much harder to move in on the Zerg army, and Zerg were always pretty hard to run from if you had Lings/Infestors. Currently a big ball can easily push in on an equivalent Zerg army. But imagine trying to do that with the cover of Dark Swarms? That means you have to take your time. But if you are taking your time, the SH's will constantly be spawning waves of Locusts.
Of course it could probably use some balancing on spawn times, etc. But it sounds like an intriguing change to the Zerg metagame and actually helps Zerg in a role they are relatively weak in.
My point - dont think of adding SH to your army alone. Think of adding SH/Viper/Speed Hydras to your army in the early-mid game.
I view the swarm host as giving zerg another answer to players who turtle. Currently the only way a zerg can really counter a protoss or terran who bunkers/cannons up and techs/takes safe bases is to just take 1-2 more bases really quickly. They don't have the same capacity that protoss or terran do to pressure the front of the other player without commiting to an attack. I can see just making 2-3 swarm hosts and parking them near the opponents choke (they seem to have insane range) basically forces the other player to do something about them, and with their range and the (quite high) hp on the locusts, basically forces the opponent to engage the zerg outside of the choke, or constantly lose resources/concentration time defending against something free. And if 2 swarm hosts is what it takes for that 2 base forge fast expaning protoss to be forced to engage me in the middle of the map, then i fail to see how that isn't worth it.
I'm not actually sure what tech they are, but if they are below hive then they also represent quite a serious "metagame" threat to protoss who forge fast expand into stargate play, as they won't have detection. currently you can use cannons to defend against burrowed roach or infestor play pretty easily as those units have short enough range that you would need to actively try and bust the front/drop/runby to get out of detection range, but if there was a threat of essentially having an indestructible siege tank shelling the buildings at your choke if you didn't go robo in pvz seems pretty huge to me.
Edit: also, they could work extremely well together with muta in zvz, as i'm not sure how you could safely engage 5-6 swarm hosts outside your choke if they have a flock of air units floating above them. I'm not entirely sure how the new zerg detection works, but if muta can just focus down any vipers/whichever unit the viper gives detection, then the only real counter i see to that would to be to go muta against it aswell...
On October 25 2011 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: One thing that really bothered my when Dustin was talking about the Swarm Host was that he kept saying that Zerg was the "slow, methodical grind" race, but i think this is already fundamentally flawed. Zerg isn't suppoesd to be a slow methodical grind, it's supposed to be fast reacting and swarming.
The Swarm Host is a cool idea, but it needs to do whatever it does faster, like the Lurker in SCBW, which could devastate lines of marines really quickly. They even said they needed to find a way to "clean up a lot of marines really fast," but I'm pretty sure that a group of stimmed marines would be able to just run in and dispose of these slow shooting Swarm Hosts with a single scan.
This person Speaks the Truth. We should take heed to this statement
I have a Feeling Stimmed Marines gonna Melt These Swarm Hosts with a Single Scan with no Problem Considering i read somewhere their health was only 120
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers.
Have fun with lurkers.
Edit: SH need a Hive upgrade in order to maintain that level of control when late game numbers get higher.
SH also will have great synergy with Spine crawlers mid-late game, creating a siege line where units have to commit heavily just to take down 4 spines and 3 SHs.
Edit2: Late game, you can stagger the burrows so they stream near continuously. :D Now that'll be a sight to behold.
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers.
Have fun with lurkers.
Edit: SH need a Hive upgrade in order to maintain that level of control when late game numbers get higher.
yeah, this is exactly right. Lurkers worked cause of the low bio hp in sc1. in SC2, marauders would ROLL over lurkers. Not to mention with the larger body size, it'd be hard to overlap splash. Second reason is that medics are now flying, another crucial weakness in the bio army of sc1.
On October 25 2011 08:45 BinxyBrown wrote: The range of it's attack is melee, its radius is one, the splash you saw was from tanks. And the reason we had to force units into the open was because of effective dps in a choke, with disruption web we can attack into chokes with banelings just fine, this unit serves no purpose other than harassment which ling runbys and infestors will do cheaper and better.
The range is as far as its melee can reach, which appears to be great inspite of massed siege tank fire. If the tanks are forced to unsiege to stop firing and retreat/advance, then great, you've gained position.
Yeah...people are forgetting that the Swarm Host is explicitly made to lockdown positions *with support from other units*. You're not supposed to use them by themselves, but like someone on page one said, with maybe a few Infestors behind for Fungal Growths or an Infested Terran wall.
Of course someone with a Raven or an Observer can run in and snipe them. It's the same from Creep Tumors, burrowed Roaches, or burrowed Infestors though. And like I've said before, it'll actually force Terrans to make Ravens, which they'll have to do anyway with burrow-moving Banelings. Gives you that same Brood War feel with Terran having to move out with the Science Vessel because of Lurkers, huh?
Fuck, think about Spawn Hosts + Hydras + maybe 2 Infestors. They'd lock down a location until Colossi, right? You then have that location for five thousand years.
Swarm Host on it's own is a really shitty unit. It has an extremely niche role as well:
When Zerg has entered mid-game with a huge advantage against an opponent (better against terran/siege tanks) but can't kill them given siege tanks, cannons, forcefields, and defensive lines, and instead of doing Zerg's only option - taking another base and going for an econ battle, and then possibly losing due to tech/deathball - they want to be able to apply mild pressure.
Now, instead of Zerg completely stomping their opponent in the early game, and then going into midgame because "Damn, he has siege tanks" or "Damn, he has forcefields and is turtling", and then going "Well, even though it's impossible for my opponent to win, this game is going to go on for another 20 minutes" they can apply mild pressure.
Now, it's blinding cloud and the Viper that will let Zerg choose to be aggressive instead of macro, but with the Swarm Host, a winning Zerg can apply mild pressure while expanding to someone who is turtling ridiculously.
Too many Zerg games go where Zerg has such a huge, unlosable lead in the game, but can't just end it. This is a frustrationg I'm sure P and T do not understand, but for many Zerg, it's extremely frustrating to be straight up outplaying the opponent, but you still have to play another 20 minutes with this 'scrub' because they have a siege tank or a colossi. And it's extremely frustrating when you actually end up losing to the 2 base deathball.
Now obviously at Masters this isn't an issue, but how many of you are even masters? How many times has Silver to Diamond, and even GM level Zergs, actually lost to a T/P despite having a million bases, only to die to a deathball? Once? Isn't that one time too many?
And despite that, how many games have you played where, damn, the T/P made a cannon/bunker/colossi/siege tank, and even though they were being BM assholes and wouldn't leave, you had no option but to play the game another 20 minutes so you could get broodlords and finally end it safely? Every other game? I can tell you that as a Masters Zerg, every game I win, about 90% of them are games I already well won but the opponent is either BM and won't leave, or is too stupid to realize he lost, or simply doesn't understand he lost (maybe he doesnt know I took the gold, or that I went 2 base hive, or that I very riskily took a fast third and i didnt die for it). With the swarm host, now Zerg can apply pressure when they are in the lead.
If you are not in the lead into the midgame, I can tell you that the gas cost of both swarm host, and the infestation pit (yes, now both infestor and swarm host come from infestation pit, no upgrades for swarm host on infestation pit since no upgrades necessary) will be a huge turnoff. You also can't sipmly put swarm hosts out front of an even game, since nothing is keeping the enemy contained. It also has less effectiveness against Protoss who don't cause friendly fire, unlike siege tanks.
On October 25 2011 12:21 Belial88 wrote: Swarm Host on it's own is a really shitty unit. It has an extremely niche role as well:
When Zerg has entered mid-game with a huge advantage against an opponent (better against terran/siege tanks) but can't kill them given siege tanks, cannons, forcefields, and defensive lines, and instead of doing Zerg's only option - taking another base and going for an econ battle, and then possibly losing due to tech/deathball - they want to be able to apply mild pressure.
Now, instead of Zerg completely stomping their opponent in the early game, and then going into midgame because "Damn, he has siege tanks" or "Damn, he has forcefields and is turtling", and then going "Well, even though it's impossible for my opponent to win, this game is going to go on for another 20 minutes" they can apply mild pressure.
Now, it's blinding cloud and the Viper that will let Zerg choose to be aggressive instead of macro, but with the Swarm Host, a winning Zerg can apply mild pressure while expanding to someone who is turtling ridiculously.
Too many Zerg games go where Zerg has such a huge, unlosable lead in the game, but can't just end it. This is a frustrationg I'm sure P and T do not understand, but for many Zerg, it's extremely frustrating to be straight up outplaying the opponent, but you still have to play another 20 minutes with this 'scrub' because they have a siege tank or a colossi. And it's extremely frustrating when you actually end up losing to the 2 base deathball.
Now obviously at Masters this isn't an issue, but how many of you are even masters? How many times has Silver to Diamond, and even GM level Zergs, actually lost to a T/P despite having a million bases, only to die to a deathball? Once? Isn't that one time too many?
And despite that, how many games have you played where, damn, the T/P made a cannon/bunker/colossi/siege tank, and even though they were being BM assholes and wouldn't leave, you had no option but to play the game another 20 minutes so you could get broodlords and finally end it safely? Every other game? I can tell you that as a Masters Zerg, every game I win, about 90% of them are games I already well won but the opponent is either BM and won't leave, or is too stupid to realize he lost, or simply doesn't understand he lost (maybe he doesnt know I took the gold, or that I went 2 base hive, or that I very riskily took a fast third and i didnt die for it). With the swarm host, now Zerg can apply pressure when they are in the lead.
If you are not in the lead into the midgame, I can tell you that the gas cost of both swarm host, and the infestation pit (yes, now both infestor and swarm host come from infestation pit, no upgrades for swarm host on infestation pit since no upgrades necessary) will be a huge turnoff. You also can't sipmly put swarm hosts out front of an even game, since nothing is keeping the enemy contained. It also has less effectiveness against Protoss who don't cause friendly fire, unlike siege tanks.
But the swarm host' swarmlings are free.
That's kind of a problem. And by "kind of" I mean "titanic".
Only a badly designed unit can fulfill such a niche role, if that's what you're implying.
The way I see it is not to look at the unit by itself but rather with the whole race in HOTS.
You're gonna get vipers at lair tech for detection and blinding cast. Awesome flying spellcaster. Get usual army of lings or roaches and whatever as you do. As ur getting infestors you go swarm hosts. You can crush a terran or protoss army when they move out. You will loose food but whatever, now spawn a few of these swarm hosts and begin to siege the enemy base, casting the blinding cast because these things have high dps and quite abit of health it will make them quite effective cuz the enemy army is low on army. Pump 30 drones and then send in ur free zerglings with the locusts and keep casting the blinding thing. Tear down the throat of the enemy. The further you are ahead of your turtle terran or walled off protoss, the faster you will kill them instead of having to wait for them to come out to crush their army again. And I'm speaking mostly for ladder games. The pros may figure out timing pushes or what not.
That dynamic of play is cool. Quite zergy in my opinion.
So at first I didnt like them and the more I thought about them the more I disliked them. Then I thought more about the fact that the locusts have 87hp and do 16damage every second in melee range. Now the more I think about them the more I like them. Cant wait to start using the new zerg units.
On October 25 2011 12:36 VoiceOfDecember wrote: The way I see it is not to look at the unit by itself but rather with the whole race in HOTS.
You're gonna get vipers at lair tech for detection and blinding cast. Awesome flying spellcaster. Get usual army of lings or roaches and whatever as you do. As ur getting infestors you go swarm hosts. You can crush a terran or protoss army when they move out. You will loose food but whatever, now spawn a few of these swarm hosts and begin to siege the enemy base, casting the blinding cast because these things have high dps and quite abit of health it will make them quite effective cuz the enemy army is low on army. Pump 30 drones and then send in ur free zerglings with the locusts and keep casting the blinding thing. Tear down the throat of the enemy. The further you are ahead of your turtle terran or walled off protoss, the faster you will kill them instead of having to wait for them to come out to crush their army again. And I'm speaking mostly for ladder games. The pros may figure out timing pushes or what not.
That dynamic of play is cool. Quite zergy in my opinion.
What happens if you Burrow a SH and have it spawn locusts, then unborrow and reburrow as quickly as possible? Does the game make you wait the 15 seconds for more Locusts to spawn or could a zerg player micro his SH's so he could put on more pressure?
i picture this to be very powerful in a flank. Gives you heavy health units to eat some siege shots for your lings and blings to get near. could be game changing but too early to tell.
On October 25 2011 13:45 gabelavon wrote: this may have been addressed already, but how long do the locusts last? or do they not time out like broodlings?
finally, can they be corralled by creating a ring of units on stop position - so theoretically, can they be "saved" and released all at the same time?
they time out in 15 seconds I believe, and you can rally them wherever you want and you control them, so no need to corral. However they time out before new ones are spawned, so you'll never have more then 2 locusts per host.
I think people are looking at the swarm host the wrong way. Rather than being a unit like the lurker that can stop units moving into an area, the swarm host can put constant, free pressure on a position that can only be stopped by going out into the open and killing the host. I think the demo video was acturally pretty bad at explaining the swarm host. I would've rather liked to see them burrowed around the XNW in the middle of the map, surrounded by a standard zerg army. I do think the swarm host might need some sort of ability or somthing to make it useful in battle. Especially if the enermy attacks right after the last spawn cycle finished.
I think it's stupid and not even a threat to most armies. Consider that Terrans and protoss have way better sieging equipments. Where do all those locusts run into? Siege Tank fire Collosi Fire ...completely wasteful of a new unit. Did anyone notice how slow these locusts move? About the same freaking speed as a hydra off creep.... What is blizzard thinking?!
My suggestion is to make them like infested Terrans in BW blow up and do medium amount of damage...wouldn't that be scary? free banelings lol
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
There are 2 easy ways to calm your (the OP's) concerns and leave the Swarm Host as it is:
#1 The Locust should not be auto-cast. You have to be there every 24 seconds (*or whatever) in order to create said locusts. Depending on how badly that would nerf the unit, the Locusts would either be able to be manual-cast more often and/or the Locusts would do more damage or have more armor or HP or blah.
Depending on a player's ee han timing the Swarm Hosts would be more and moreso effective at holding an area down with constant pressure. Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by always being there to launch that new Locust! this would also allow for the STOP LURKERS EFFECT w00t), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy.
OR (not both) if the opinion is that the unit sucks and it overlaps other units:
#2 to reference the Slow, Methodical, Grind (we all wish the Swarm Could truly be constant) - Let's imagine 4 Swarm Hosts. I move in with them. I burrow one, count to 3, burrow another, count to 3, etc etc. Now, I'm not math genius, nor do I know any math at all, but that would create a locust every 6 Blizzard seconds. (I hope I'm right - otherwise how embarrassing...)
Then, can't we imagine a emerging setup / strategy whereas the Swarm Hosts are never meant to fire all at once, but depending on how many enemy units there are, they are all meant to be firing independently and in a mechanical, constant manner. This strat I believe would indeed help the Zerg hold a section of the map, either right before, right after, or even during the sometime intermittent waves of The Swarm.
Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by taking notice of the timings so that staggering the attacks is more effective), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy. The more SH, the more constant The Swarm can be.
ya? (I don't like the other idea about the cloak ground carriers) I don't think this overlaps with Infested Terrans. I don't think this overlaps with Broodlings.
This is a crappy and less cool version of the Lurker, yeah???
Yeah, I played BW and am biased, but for goodness sakes. Like if you're gonna make a new unit, make it truly new, like the Oracle or shredder, don't make a shit version of a beloved unit from a previous game.
On October 25 2011 15:00 Shebuha wrote: Why not just give Zerg Lurkers???
This is a crappy and less cool version of the Lurker, yeah???
Yeah, I played BW and am biased, but for goodness sakes. Like if you're gonna make a new unit, make it truly new, like the Oracle or shredder, don't make a shit version of a beloved unit from a previous game.
Because Lurkers were awesome, and this is not a time to be nostalgic but to evolve the Swarm and use newer effective strains.
dropping these in a base away from static detection is going to be VERY annoying for your opponent, especially if you spread them. Terrans would need to either get a raven or burn multiple scans, and toss would have to build more observers (as most toss just leave 1 obs in your base and 1 or 2 obs with their army)
late game swarm host drops sounds like a viable means of sniping tech / production in the lategame, especially with speedlings accompanying them. "Base is under attack" ---> I move my camera, see cracklings, send units to kill them. Clean them up, move my units back midmap. "Base is under attack" ----> wtf, again? boom, locusts fucking shit up in your base
edit: now that i think about it, has anyone seen a locusts attack animation? I don't think I have
yeah I think this unit has a lot of interesting possibilities
On October 25 2011 16:05 TutsiRebel wrote: dropping these in a base away from static detection is going to be VERY annoying for your opponent, especially if you spread them. Terrans would need to either get a raven or burn multiple scans, and toss would have to build more observers (as most toss just leave 1 obs in your base and 1 or 2 obs with their army)
late game swarm host drops sounds like a viable means of sniping tech / production in the lategame, especially with speedlings accompanying them. "Base is under attack" ---> I move my camera, see cracklings, send units to kill them. Clean them up, move my units back midmap. "Base is under attack" ----> wtf, again? boom, locusts fucking shit up in your base
Uhm.. here is the realistic scenario if your force, as Zerg, is not overwhelming (as in it doesn't matter what you drop):
You drop. Terra sends units to defend. Terra cleans up Zerglings/Locusts (why would he miss that there are locusts in there?). Terra watches were the Locusts spawn which are no danger to him because they don't even reach his forces whiteout additional support. Terra kills Swarm Hosts.
I would MUCH rather just drop Banelings and burrow them all around the base...
how about just putting one or two down near some destructable rocks and let em work on em, building up maximum number or locusts that will eventually break through (depending on how long they last)
Best case scenario: force tanks to unseige to target host. T moves tanks forward, re-seige, fire etc. in the time it takes for another wave to come out... wasn't this unit pitched as something used to apply pressure? Now it's "but you need zerlings/banelings/infestors with them for them to be useful." If you just sit them there in realistic numbers, they won't do much.
On October 25 2011 16:34 theBizness wrote: Best case scenario: force tanks to unseige to target host. T moves tanks forward, re-seige, fire etc. in the time it takes for another wave to come out... wasn't this unit pitched as something used to apply pressure? Now it's "but you need zerlings/banelings/infestors with them for them to be useful." If you just sit them there in realistic numbers, they won't do much.
Its not like the swarmhost can't unburrow and move back as well... Do it like this: Burrow, spawn hosts, attack and unburrow and move away. Terran now thinks that you got swarmhosts outside his base so he moves out and wastes a scan for nothing.
why can't the locusts: have less health spawn faster and hop like grasshoppers? i would think it would make them more effective (less tank fire) but marines can still clean them up. plus, (and this is a big plus) they could be used with the main zerg army since they won't be competing for surface area like broodlings do.
On October 25 2011 17:39 HaXXspetten wrote: swarm host/brood lord/unfestor/viper/corruptor seems pretty insane :o
and how do you get the gas to build units that cost 100 / 250 / 150 / 200 / 100 gas respectively?
that combo will never work. why would you even want slow as hell swarm hosts in there. just get lings as you will be floating minerals like hell. and people should stop talking about viper + swarm host combos. it's retarded to use this combo if you can just use speedlings with your flying vipers instead of slow swarm hosts that have a setup time on top.
I don't understand. This is just a Brood Lord. Spawns free minions with a duration. It's slow. It's a siege unit. It has large range. The only difference is one requires anti-air one requires detection. I literally can not think of a strategy using Swarm Host, that can not be replaced by Brood Lords. It's particularly ignorant of posters saying this will be used to break "turtling" players. This is exactly what the Brood Lord does. Why then, make a unit that serves the exact same role as a Brood Lord.
One might say: Swarm Host comes before Hive tech, so Swarm Host has a role. But essentially, Blizzard could make Brood Lord lair tech and it would be the EXACT same thing. And it would be imbalanced.
I am so adamant at how identical a Swarm Host is to a Brood Lord, that I suspect Blizzard might be removing the Brood Lord. edit: also there were rumors about removing the Corruptor. So if Corruptor is gone, you can't make Brood Lords. It's speculation, but this makes a lot of sense.
On October 25 2011 17:44 Remb wrote: I don't understand. This is just a Brood Lord. Spawns free minions with a duration. It's slow. It's a siege unit. It has large range. The only difference is one requires anti-air one requires detection. I literally can not think of a strategy using Swarm Host, that can not be replaced by Brood Lords. It's particularly ignorant of posters saying this will be used to break "turtling" players. This is exactly what the Brood Lord does. Why then, make a unit that serves the exact same role as a Brood Lord.
One might say: Swarm Host comes before Hive tech, so Swarm Host has a role. But essentially, Blizzard could make Brood Lord lair tech and it would be the EXACT same thing. And it would be imbalanced.
I am so adamant at how identical a Swarm Host is to a Brood Lord, that I suspect Blizzard might be removing the Brood Lord. edit: also there were rumors about removing the Corruptor. So if Corruptor is gone, you can't make Brood Lords. It's speculation, but this makes a lot of sense.
Swarm hosts have rougly twice the range and can "shoot" without vision.
On October 25 2011 17:44 Remb wrote: I don't understand. This is just a Brood Lord. Spawns free minions with a duration. It's slow. It's a siege unit. It has large range. The only difference is one requires anti-air one requires detection. I literally can not think of a strategy using Swarm Host, that can not be replaced by Brood Lords. It's particularly ignorant of posters saying this will be used to break "turtling" players. This is exactly what the Brood Lord does. Why then, make a unit that serves the exact same role as a Brood Lord.
One might say: Swarm Host comes before Hive tech, so Swarm Host has a role. But essentially, Blizzard could make Brood Lord lair tech and it would be the EXACT same thing. And it would be imbalanced.
I am so adamant at how identical a Swarm Host is to a Brood Lord, that I suspect Blizzard might be removing the Brood Lord. edit: also there were rumors about removing the Corruptor. So if Corruptor is gone, you can't make Brood Lords. It's speculation, but this makes a lot of sense.
Swarm hosts are by no means identical to Brood Lords.
Brood Lord: Does guaranteed damage every time it fires, with broodlings spawning in melee range and thus also guaranteed to provoke friendly splash, should tanks be sieged nearby. Necessitates an immediate response. Minimum DPS: 8 (plus 4 if the broodling gets to nibble anything)
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Imagine 5 broodlords, rather than 9 swarm hosts, laying siege to the same entrenched position as in the swarm host video, and grant them whatever support units you were presuming existed. Exactly.
On October 25 2011 17:44 Remb wrote: I don't understand. This is just a Brood Lord. Spawns free minions with a duration. It's slow. It's a siege unit. It has large range. The only difference is one requires anti-air one requires detection. I literally can not think of a strategy using Swarm Host, that can not be replaced by Brood Lords. It's particularly ignorant of posters saying this will be used to break "turtling" players. This is exactly what the Brood Lord does. Why then, make a unit that serves the exact same role as a Brood Lord.
One might say: Swarm Host comes before Hive tech, so Swarm Host has a role. But essentially, Blizzard could make Brood Lord lair tech and it would be the EXACT same thing. And it would be imbalanced.
I am so adamant at how identical a Swarm Host is to a Brood Lord, that I suspect Blizzard might be removing the Brood Lord. edit: also there were rumors about removing the Corruptor. So if Corruptor is gone, you can't make Brood Lords. It's speculation, but this makes a lot of sense.
Swarm hosts are by no means identical to Brood Lords.
Brood Lord: Does guaranteed damage every time it fires, with broodlings spawning in melee range and thus also guaranteed to provoke friendly splash, should tanks be sieged nearby. Necessitates an immediate response. Minimum DPS: 8 (plus 4 if the broodling gets to nibble anything)
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Imagine 5 broodlords, rather than 9 swarm hosts, laying siege to the same entrenched position as in the swarm host video, and grant them whatever support units you were presuming existed. Exactly.
Except that in your example, that will never happen due to BL being hive tech, unless of course you're in bronze league then yes, that scenario could happen, your opponent still on one base, with just 5 siege tanks and 20 marines by the time you have 2 bases, teched up to hive, got corruptors, morphed them and moved to their base.
Do people really fail to acknowledge the obvious and stated use for this unit, siege breaker?
You get 6 units every 24s(?) that have 3x the hp of a broodling, almost 2x that of an infested terran, for free, on tier 2. That's 500 hp worth of tankiness from one host.
If they do make contact they have a lot higher dps than a stimmed marine, obvious since they're not supposed to survive that long.
Sure a big amount of tanks will decimate them but you can't expect 1 host to be of use against 10 tanks. But 10 hosts, that's 5000 hp of meat every 24 seconds. Spread the spawns and some will eventually get through.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Staggered siege ? If you burrow them all at the same time, the opponent has one time to counter-attack. If you burrow them progressively, he will be able to attack anytime because locust conveyor belt will so weak. If you use them all at the same time, you can hit something. If you use them progressively, you will never hit anything.
I kinda like this unit. It will be interesting to see how it's used. But the Locusts definitely need a damage boost - perhaps they should explode on contact and deal minimal splash damage?
Free banelings ? You're gonna make MVP cry .
A good option would be anti-armor attack. Why ? Because that's zerg needs the most after the fungal nerf, and because it would make the unit stronger against what it's supposed to be strong against : fortified positions.
On October 25 2011 18:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Except that in your example, that will never happen due to BL being hive tech, unless of course you're in bronze league then yes, that scenario could happen, your opponent still on one base, with just 5 siege tanks and 20 marines by the time you have 2 bases, teched up to hive, got corruptors, morphed them and moved to their base.
Do you post while drunk?
Well.... in this stage of the game, I'd rather have lings, mutas and banes that will deal damage, rather that swarm hosts that won't do anything.
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
On October 25 2011 18:48 dakalro wrote: Do people really fail to acknowledge the obvious and stated use for this unit, siege breaker?
You get 6 units every 24s(?) that have 3x the hp of a broodling, almost 2x that of an infested terran, for free, on tier 2. That's 500 hp worth of tankiness from one host.
If they do make contact they have a lot higher dps than a stimmed marine, obvious since they're not supposed to survive that long.
Sure a big amount of tanks will decimate them but you can't expect 1 host to be of use against 10 tanks. But 10 hosts, that's 5000 hp of meat every 24 seconds. Spread the spawns and some will eventually get through.
What? It's 2 per host, where the hell could you see 6?
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think concept wise its pretty cool. Hopefully they will be viable in smaller battles too so zerg players can burrow/unburrow in middle of battle and becomes a dynamic unit.
Keep in mind that damage, range and number of spawns are all subject to change. I actually think the 15sec spawn time is quite long but we'll have to see.
And people saying that one scan will kill them...im sure most good zergs will see the scan go down and just reposition...slowing terran pushes or holding chokes.
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing or slow down the sieges or marines from moving forward.
last I remember, lurkers also did not break siege tank lines. It does drastically slow the tank and marines movements though
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
On October 25 2011 17:44 Remb wrote: I don't understand. This is just a Brood Lord. Spawns free minions with a duration. It's slow. It's a siege unit. It has large range. The only difference is one requires anti-air one requires detection. I literally can not think of a strategy using Swarm Host, that can not be replaced by Brood Lords. It's particularly ignorant of posters saying this will be used to break "turtling" players. This is exactly what the Brood Lord does. Why then, make a unit that serves the exact same role as a Brood Lord.
One might say: Swarm Host comes before Hive tech, so Swarm Host has a role. But essentially, Blizzard could make Brood Lord lair tech and it would be the EXACT same thing. And it would be imbalanced.
I am so adamant at how identical a Swarm Host is to a Brood Lord, that I suspect Blizzard might be removing the Brood Lord. edit: also there were rumors about removing the Corruptor. So if Corruptor is gone, you can't make Brood Lords. It's speculation, but this makes a lot of sense.
Swarm hosts are by no means identical to Brood Lords.
Brood Lord: Does guaranteed damage every time it fires, with broodlings spawning in melee range and thus also guaranteed to provoke friendly splash, should tanks be sieged nearby. Necessitates an immediate response. Minimum DPS: 8 (plus 4 if the broodling gets to nibble anything)
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Imagine 5 broodlords, rather than 9 swarm hosts, laying siege to the same entrenched position as in the swarm host video, and grant them whatever support units you were presuming existed. Exactly.
Except that in your example, that will never happen due to BL being hive tech, unless of course you're in bronze league then yes, that scenario could happen, your opponent still on one base, with just 5 siege tanks and 20 marines by the time you have 2 bases, teched up to hive, got corruptors, morphed them and moved to their base.
(Spanishiwa hitting a 2-base Terran with fast broodlords)
In fairness, a lot depends upon how useful Swarm Hosts can be in defence. Zerg's problem with 'cute' tech has always been surviving long enough to use it.
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
i don't like the swarm host is a good for game play due to it's attacks. lets say that i burrowed two of them and then it's so easy for a terran to drop a couple of marines on top of them behind the attack line.
Also if you time the attack you can just go and kill the swarm host straight up when it's recharging its offensive capabilities. that's my 2 cents...
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
On October 25 2011 19:50 archonOOid wrote: i don't like the swarm host is a good for game play due to it's attacks. lets say that i burrowed two of them and then it's so easy for a terran to drop a couple of marines on top of them behind the attack line.
Also if you time the attack you can just go and kill the swarm host straight up when it's recharging its offensive capabilities. that's my 2 cents...
Don't leave swarm hosts by themselves?
Also it might sounds weird, but hydra could potentially be one of the stable units in TvZ since now that viper and hydra speed increase exists
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
With swarm host, you can actually create your own siege line to delay terran from pushing forward, if not completely halts it. Like I said before, they're not design to BREAK the tank lines. That'll just be ridiculous
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
Guys, these is really useful. Remeber how we always say zergs cant win even if they have an advantage against a turtling terran. Zergs can use their army advantage to constantly send locusts into the terran base, making the terrans lose a few units every now and then while mutalisks harass the main and pull away the marines. It can work if we don't close our eyes and keep an open mind about it.
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
On October 25 2011 20:03 poorcloud wrote: Guys, these is really useful. Remeber how we always say zergs cant win even if they have an advantage against a turtling terran. Zergs can use their army advantage to constantly send locusts into the terran base, making the terrans lose a few units every now and then while mutalisks harass the main and pull away the marines. It can work if we don't close our eyes and keep an open mind about it.
or we could actually get a useful unit if we keep complaining. your example sucks btw. broods would be much better and they take a long time to take out a fortified terran base. how long will those locusts take MOVING into the base, especially up a ramp?
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
ah, yes. unsiege the tanks to move in the marines. That'll definitely do well against the lings/banelings/vipers or infestors waiting right behind the line
I just checked the video again, I counted 6 tanks. Yes there are damage done by the siege tanks themselves, but isn't that exactly the point I was making? It doesn't matter if the dmg comes from swarm locust or siege tank, it has the same effects and achieve the same goals.
Anyway, mathematically thats not possible. bunkers have 400 hp and 6 siege tank friendly fire is 90 dmg per round, I see about 2 rounds worth of friendly fire, making it at ~180 dmg from FF and ~220 dmg from locusts (~ because few dead marines)
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
ah, yes. unsiege the tanks to move in the marines. That'll definitely do well against the lings/banelings/vipers or infestors waiting right behind the line
I just checked the video again, I counted 6 tanks. Yes there are damage done by the siege tanks themselves, but isn't that exactly the point I was making? It doesn't matter if the dmg comes from swarm locust or siege tank, it has the same effects and achieve the same goals.
Anyway, mathematically thats not possible. bunkers have 400 hp and 6 siege tank friendly fire is 90 dmg per round, I see about 2 rounds worth of friendly fire, making it at 180 dmg from FF and 220 dmg from locusts
and how many damage would those 7-8 tanks do in one volley against a zerg army? and how often would they fire? how can you control space with melee units though they are free? and just in case you still think thier worthwhile try the same against colossi that don't have friendly splash. or make a similar terran composition. what would those locusts do against hellion / marine? exactly, nothing. it's dumb and pointless for a unit to rely on a specific enemy unit to do any damage. that's called bad design.
On October 25 2011 18:57 Dommk wrote: [quote] No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
[quote]
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
ah, yes. unsiege the tanks to move in the marines. That'll definitely do well against the lings/banelings/vipers or infestors waiting right behind the line
I just checked the video again, I counted 6 tanks. Yes there are damage done by the siege tanks themselves, but isn't that exactly the point I was making? It doesn't matter if the dmg comes from swarm locust or siege tank, it has the same effects and achieve the same goals.
Anyway, mathematically thats not possible. bunkers have 400 hp and 6 siege tank friendly fire is 90 dmg per round, I see about 2 rounds worth of friendly fire, making it at 180 dmg from FF and 220 dmg from locusts
it's dumb and pointless for a unit to rely on a specific enemy unit to do any damage.
that's called meta games. You asked alot of questions, but none of them are really relevant to the point of the units.
It is still an amazing unit to have against other composition. Currently it does a ton of dps and takes a good beating, but its not suppose to be an unit that you mass in every occasion and thinks it'll turn out alright. We already have infestors for that
If blizzard can tweak numbers and make it slow down siege pushes, then it has already fulfilled its role
If locus swarm has the same firepower as siege tanks and can consistently break tank lines, we don't even need to play this game anymore, as zerg macro capability and swarm/infestors combo will prove impossible to beat
On October 25 2011 19:33 fleeze wrote: [quote] well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
[quote] yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
[quote] in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control... [quote] the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
ah, yes. unsiege the tanks to move in the marines. That'll definitely do well against the lings/banelings/vipers or infestors waiting right behind the line
I just checked the video again, I counted 6 tanks. Yes there are damage done by the siege tanks themselves, but isn't that exactly the point I was making? It doesn't matter if the dmg comes from swarm locust or siege tank, it has the same effects and achieve the same goals.
Anyway, mathematically thats not possible. bunkers have 400 hp and 6 siege tank friendly fire is 90 dmg per round, I see about 2 rounds worth of friendly fire, making it at 180 dmg from FF and 220 dmg from locusts
it's dumb and pointless for a unit to rely on a specific enemy unit to do any damage.
that's called meta games. You asked alot of questions, but none of them are really relevant to the point of the units.
It is still an amazing unit to have against other composition. Alot of dps and takes a good beating, but its not suppose to be an unit that you mass in every occasion and thinks it'll turn out alright. We already have infestors for that
the problem is that this unit does not do what blizzard intended it to do. control space. and zerg needs a space controlling unit more than a gimmicky unit that overlaps with other units.
to clarify: i didn't intend them to do the same damage as siege tanks. just comparing the threat of 7-8 siege tanks against 9 swarm hosts in holding a position.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
ah, yes. unsiege the tanks to move in the marines. That'll definitely do well against the lings/banelings/vipers or infestors waiting right behind the line
I just checked the video again, I counted 6 tanks. Yes there are damage done by the siege tanks themselves, but isn't that exactly the point I was making? It doesn't matter if the dmg comes from swarm locust or siege tank, it has the same effects and achieve the same goals.
Anyway, mathematically thats not possible. bunkers have 400 hp and 6 siege tank friendly fire is 90 dmg per round, I see about 2 rounds worth of friendly fire, making it at 180 dmg from FF and 220 dmg from locusts
it's dumb and pointless for a unit to rely on a specific enemy unit to do any damage.
that's called meta games. You asked alot of questions, but none of them are really relevant to the point of the units.
It is still an amazing unit to have against other composition. Alot of dps and takes a good beating, but its not suppose to be an unit that you mass in every occasion and thinks it'll turn out alright. We already have infestors for that
the problem is that this unit does not do what blizzard intended it to do. control space. and zerg needs a space controlling unit more than a gimmicky unit that overlaps with other units.
How does it not control space if it slows and can completely halt Terran's advances? Do you seriously want a siege unit that rivals Siege tanks in firepower given current zerg mechanics?
Currently siege tanks also doesn't do much to "control spaces" against Protoss, and there's nothing wrong with that
Overlap? Locusts do 3x the dps of broodlings and have 3 times the hp. You use broodlings to friendly fire terran units. You'd use locusts to actually tank for banelings/zerglings and if they do hit, hit hard. 20 dps unit befor upgrades (it was 16 dmg with <1s CD, right?).
On October 25 2011 20:43 dragonsuper wrote: bad unit, why don't u reintroduce lurker then ?
It was a way better idea for map control
Tell me how that will be possible against Marauders backed by medivacs of equal supply. They have the same range and without scan, just load into the medivacs and continue on. Tell me how that will be possible against blink stalkers of equal supply. They have same range and would basically just blink over the lurkers.
On October 25 2011 20:43 dragonsuper wrote: bad unit, why don't u reintroduce lurker then ?
It was a way better idea for map control
Tell me how that will be possible against Marauders backed by medivacs of equal supply. They have the same range and without scan, just load into the medivacs and continue on. Tell me how that will be possible against blink stalkers of equal supply. They have same range and would basically just blink over the lurkers.
Well, f*ck, there goes your theory.
vs terran: i would be happy if terrans would at least be forced to build marauders. there's a reason you only see marauders against roaches or ultras atm.
vs toss: same with broodlords. you keep roaches/hydras beneath them. hf blinking in.
notice how both stalkers and marauders are countered by mass zerglings. it's silly talking about "equal supply". why would i ever want to fight mass marauder/stalker with lurkers ONLY. take it to equal supply of zergling / lurker and it will crush any mass marauder / stalkers.
a lurker would be supposed to do bonus to armored units (which zerg is lacking anyway) so it wouldn't be this bad and would lead to interesting micro decisions. and lurkers can at least back up an army with AOE damage. swarm hosts just waste space with tanking locusts.
Well, f*ck, there goes your theory. at least think before talking bullshit.
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
On October 25 2011 20:03 poorcloud wrote: Guys, these is really useful. Remeber how we always say zergs cant win even if they have an advantage against a turtling terran. Zergs can use their army advantage to constantly send locusts into the terran base, making the terrans lose a few units every now and then while mutalisks harass the main and pull away the marines. It can work if we don't close our eyes and keep an open mind about it.
or we could actually get a useful unit if we keep complaining. your example sucks btw. broods would be much better and they take a long time to take out a fortified terran base. how long will those locusts take MOVING into the base, especially up a ramp?
Its frankly people like you who close off their minds to every possible strat/ideas which is why we get so many calls of OP/imba and so little innovation. These locusts are used to break a fortified terran base, including ghosts + vikings + thors+ marines+tanks. Broods can get stuttered step by vikings + thors. These locusts can come from a way back even before siege tank range and did you see how much damage they were able to tank? Why would you need locusts to break into a terran base if your exchanging free units for terran units? Even then, this may be at lair tech or something so it may make more sense to get this earlier than before broodlords.
vs terran: i would be happy if terrans would at least be forced to build marauders. there's a reason you only see marauders against roaches or ultras atm.
vs toss: same with broodlords. you keep roaches/hydras beneath them. hf blinking in.
notice how both stalkers and marauders are countered by mass zerglings. it's silly talking about "equal supply". why would i ever want to fight mass marauder/stalker with lurkers ONLY. take it to equal supply of zergling / lurker and it will crush any mass marauder / stalkers.
a lurker would be supposed to do bonus to armored units (which zerg is lacking anyway) so it wouldn't be this bad and would lead to interesting micro decisions. and lurkers can at least back up an army with AOE damage. swarm hosts just waste space with tanking locusts.
Well, f*ck, there goes your theory. at least think before talking bullshit.
You didn't answer my question and address how Lurkers could control a Terran's space, given the existence of medivacs and marauders. There IS however a small window where lurkers can be useful, between the time the marine/tank/medivac counts get too high (10-12 min). Compared with the utility of Roaches, infestors and banelings; I hope you get idea.
in your Zerg example, you suddenly pulled out BL in mid-game AND roaches AND hydras.
An average game WITH BL AND ROACHES AND HYDRAS, an equally competent Protoss, EGHuK, the protoss death ball would already be out with at least 5 Colossi backed by HT and Zealots and Observers. Where are the Lurkers in that comp? Am I missing something here?
How does supposed to do damage to armored units suddenly result in interesting micro decisions and backup an army with AoE damage? Huh? The current BW burrow time would result in the battle being already over given how fast roaches and lings are already.
vs terran: i would be happy if terrans would at least be forced to build marauders. there's a reason you only see marauders against roaches or ultras atm.
vs toss: same with broodlords. you keep roaches/hydras beneath them. hf blinking in.
notice how both stalkers and marauders are countered by mass zerglings. it's silly talking about "equal supply". why would i ever want to fight mass marauder/stalker with lurkers ONLY. take it to equal supply of zergling / lurker and it will crush any mass marauder / stalkers.
a lurker would be supposed to do bonus to armored units (which zerg is lacking anyway) so it wouldn't be this bad and would lead to interesting micro decisions. and lurkers can at least back up an army with AOE damage. swarm hosts just waste space with tanking locusts.
Well, f*ck, there goes your theory. at least think before talking bullshit.
You didn't answer my question and address how Lurkers could control a Terran's space, given the existence of medivacs and marauders. There IS however a small window where lurkers can be useful, between the time the marine/tank/medivac counts get too high (10-12 min). Compared with the utility of Roaches, infestors and banelings; I hope you get idea.
i did... but i wasn't talking about a terran's space at all. if i get 2-3 lurkers and it forces a terran to make marauders i have my goal achieved. what more did i want? he has less marines and tanks when he's building marauders. and lurkers still do AOE damage which is good against marine/marauder balls. swarming in with ling/bane and lurkers behind against tank/marine (/marauder), probably backed up by a vipers disruption web would definatetly work better as with swarm hosts, where your still left against the marines afterwards.
in your Zerg example, you suddenly pulled out BL in mid-game AND roaches AND hydras.
no, i didn't? you just pulled this out of your ass. i was talking you can COVER them the same as broodlords: with roaches below. roaches are pretty much the standard midgame unit against protoss, sometimes hydras too which i also mentioned (but not necessarily at the same time as you say...). so i don't see anything wrong with my statement.
An average game WITH BL AND ROACHES AND HYDRAS, an equally competent Protoss, EGHuK, the protoss death ball would already be out with at least 5 Colossi backed by HT and Zealots and Observers. Where are the Lurkers in that comp? Am I missing something here?
i dunno what your talking about. perhaps try to read and understand my post again. i was NEVER talking about a BL, ROACH, HYDRA army... i was just comparing cover of lurkers with cover of broods as it is standard atm. btw: lurkers do AOE damage. AOE damage is pretty good against clumped up balls of deaths, add a few infestors and it could even be pretty imbalanced. the rest of your argument is bullshit.
How does supposed to do damage to armored units suddenly result in interesting micro decisions and backup an army with AoE damage? Huh? The current BW burrow time would result in the battle being already over given how fast roaches and lings are already.
well a unit with AOE damage and bonus against armored would compliment nearly any zerg army really well. the armies would be more diverse if terran would have to add marauders (as an example) to their composition. the sniping of lurkers would require micro and skill and the zerg would have to care about lurker positioning. i think that's interesting enough.
now stop derailing the topic, terran. this is none of your business.
On October 25 2011 17:31 Treble557 wrote: By blizzards logic, the Swarm Host is Redundant for the same reason the Lurker was. The baneling.
gg blizz.
No it isn't
Swarm Hosts are not good for immediate defense, like the Lurker or the Baneling. They have something like 15seconds of ramp up time, so if you expect to use them like Lurkers/Siege tanks then they are probably going to archive very little.
You won't be able to push forward as well as Lurkers/Tanks because of this. It feels more like a unit that you would use to apply constant pressure to a location. Like outside a Protoss base. It won't be that hard to stop in the late game, but think early two base where Protoss are still teching to Colossus. All they have to defend themselves at that time are Forcefields and Static defense, no real AOE.
well, exactly. you won't be able to push forward at all with swarm hosts .and if your timing window closes and he gets colossi your swarm hosts are dead. great for a "space controlling" unit to be hard countered by colossi or siege tanks. just look at that video in the OP again and image there would be tanks at the top of the cliff... have fun walking up (or even down when defending your own base) with those slow melee units through a choke.
You could use these in those Spine crawler/Hydralisk pushes to move creep tumors and burn forcefields and just chip away at the enemy army in general.
yes because buffing the famous spine crawler / hydra push is what all zerg have requested for such a long time... colossi shuts this down quickly. so it's a niche tactic.
IMO, the most important thing about this unit is that you need an army to back up the Locust to inflict the most damage, you can't use them like a Siege tank where it will do all the work.
In terms of a single attack, the Swarm host is a waste of army supply, but they only become efficient if you have to attack a position more than once
in fact, they won't be better with your army. with what unit do you want to cover your swarm hosts exactly? zerg isn't terran. we don't have long range vikings to protect tanks from air and a bunch of ranged units to. swarm hosts also have a range of zero (they're melee...) so how does this prevent a terran to just engage and clean up those 2 locusts per host with the army and sieging? a terran could pushing his siege line forward will actually push the swarm hosts back because they can do nothing to prevent it... even better with protoss. colossi > swarm host (and hydra, the most obvious unit it has synergies with). compare that to a terran push with 3 tanks sieging below your ramp. THIS is actually space control...
Swarm Host: Burrows and spawns the first two Locusts in approximately the same set-up time as the Terran Shredder (yes, really). No guaranteed damage: if there aren't enough Locusts, none of them will get through. Those who are saying you should stagger-burrow Hosts are, to my mind, setting up a nice slow conveyor-belt of Locusts, about as useful as streaming slow, melee-only roaches in two-by-two. If we assume every single Locust gets a hit in (which strikes me as quite generous), the effective DPS of a Swarm host is two.
Although their DPS is low due to the long spawn time, if you actually attacked WITH the locust then it is a different story. If you think about attacking in waves then you don't really include the time in which your army is retreating and your getting back into formation.
If you use each wave of Locust as the signal attack with the rest of your army then backout when they are dead then they are quite a strong unit, mostly because during the first few seconds they actually do decent damage.
Kind of like a Carrier in that sense, their DPS is actually quite mediocre but they have ridiculous burst DPS. Due to graviton catapult their damage their DPS is something like 3 times higher during initial release than when they have settled down. Kinda why it is pretty advantageous to hit and run with Carriers
the only use of locusts is tanking and i'd imagine the best dps behind them would be hydras. and they get countered by the same long range siege units of terran and protoss. for the gas cost of a swarm host you could build 4 roaches. i think they would do a better job in tanking for the hydras and we all know how good roach/hydra is nowadays. the problem is that this unit is supposed to control space which it simply isn't. it has neither a long enough range (well no range at all) nor splash. just free units. hell it would be better if it would just spawn infested terrans...
this unit has no role in the game in it's current state and will be very difficult to balance properly. either you have overpowered free units or they suck.
I think the point of swarm host isn't to break siege tank lines, but preventing the sieges or marines from moving forward.
If the locusts have enough hp to make it to the tank line melee range, then it has served its purpose
how can a unit without AOE prevent marines from moving forward? that's like stoping marine with pure zerglings. you need LOTS of them and when marines reach critical mass you are dead without AOE.
because if marines pokes forward, they'll get hit by not only the locusts but also siege tanks friendly fire.
isn't this the same "space control" as parking a group of lings? they will achieve exactly the same. terran will just unsiege stim in some marines and take the hosts out.
Those locusts currently also do alot of damage too. From the video presentation, imagine that bunker is actually a group of marines. Not so pretty now
in this video there are 9!!! swarm hosts. that's 1800 / 900 in resources. you could get 7-8 tanks for the same cost. now compare the damage done again...
and there was also 7-8 tanks in that video? along with bunkers and marines support. I don't understand your point.
if swarm host continues to spawn locusts, it'll be hard for marines or siege tanks to move forward without being under siege by not only locus but also siege tanks themselves
that's why you unsiege and then move in a group of marines. or just go in with your whole army and tanks unsieged. why wouldn't you? the zerg just wasted an insane amount of resources in useless units that sit there for 15 seconds doing nothing. it will be nearly impossible to balance this concept even in the beta. either locusts will be overpowered or they will suck. also it's 5 tanks and 2 bunkers in the video. and most of the damage done is by the tanks themselves.
and now imagine a terran just putting 7-8 tanks below your ramp and compare it to those lame swarm hosts. i know i would take heavy losses moving out against tanks. but against melee single damage attackers? that's a fucking joke.
On October 25 2011 20:03 poorcloud wrote: Guys, these is really useful. Remeber how we always say zergs cant win even if they have an advantage against a turtling terran. Zergs can use their army advantage to constantly send locusts into the terran base, making the terrans lose a few units every now and then while mutalisks harass the main and pull away the marines. It can work if we don't close our eyes and keep an open mind about it.
or we could actually get a useful unit if we keep complaining. your example sucks btw. broods would be much better and they take a long time to take out a fortified terran base. how long will those locusts take MOVING into the base, especially up a ramp?
Its frankly people like you who close off their minds to every possible strat/ideas which is why we get so many calls of OP/imba and so little innovation. These locusts are used to break a fortified terran base, including ghosts + vikings + thors+ marines+tanks. Broods can get stuttered step by vikings + thors. These locusts can come from a way back even before siege tank range and did you see how much damage they were able to tank? Why would you need locusts to break into a terran base if your exchanging free units for terran units? Even then, this may be at lair tech or something so it may make more sense to get this earlier than before broodlords.
lol i could say the same about you. we get these inferior units because there's always people saying we should take everything from blizz unquestioned. the concept of swarm hosts is BORING. on top they have no real role in the game.
if i can't break a fortified terran base with broodlords i will never be able to with swarm hosts. 1 Planetary and the swarm host is useless btw (autotarget, non-friendly damage splash). all terran has to do is repair a bit perhaps. and i don't even want a unit designed to "break" a heavily fortified base. that's a niche role and even for this role they take AGES to break a base. also we already have broodlords... redundancy this is what the topic is about.
When I played around with them, Host Swarmers felt pretty solid, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that they felt about the same way that Broodlords feel, except that they come out a lot sooner.
I do agree that they are too close to a Broodlord in function and role. A t2-2.5 ranged aoe unit would have been better.
I really think that zerg needs something different at t2-2.5, but I think that there is still room for the host swarmer at t3.
When I think of locusts I think of a flying swarm of bugs that covers and consumes everything. I think that it would be better if the Host Swarmer was closer to a cross between a Brood Lord and a Carrier with flying, free locusts, that died after a short time.
On October 25 2011 22:33 FluXxxx wrote: i just do not know why people argue about the swarm host.
the swarm host itself does absolutely nothing. it just spawns 2 zealoty things with a 10 second timer! it has no attack.
so just discuss how well slow zealots work against a siege line might be better.
As a Protoss player I have to take issue with this. Did you SEE the amount of firepower those things survived? And how fast stuff started dying? You can't compare them because Zealots would just instadrop against that much.
Frankly I'm sure most Protoss players would be delighted if Zealots were that durable and strong.
Far as the Swarm Host goes, I think it looks alright; looks decent enough, perhaps a little boring to use but fairly solid as an idea and appropriate for zerg. The balancing on it is going to be a nightmare though methinks.
On October 25 2011 20:43 dragonsuper wrote: bad unit, why don't u reintroduce lurker then ?
It was a way better idea for map control
Tell me how that will be possible against Marauders backed by medivacs of equal supply. They have the same range and without scan, just load into the medivacs and continue on. Tell me how that will be possible against blink stalkers of equal supply. They have same range and would basically just blink over the lurkers.
Well, f*ck, there goes your theory.
In both situations, you would not want to attack into a base that is covered by several or more lurkers because you are guaranteed losses due to the line splash damage. For Terran, it'll cost a Scan to attack into it, and would be difficult to kill units and buildings without dying to Lurker spines quickly. With Stalkers, they'll either die or sustain heavy damage before doing any sort of sustainable damage.
Put the Swarm Host in the same situation. Locust just get kited and all drone dies to target firing without raiding army sustain much, if any loss.
I find Swarm Host rather useless. The rate of "fire" is way too slow and the locusts are way too weak... Terran can just put 2 siege tanks and kill all that comes out. Direct damage unit like the lurker can be much better.
On October 25 2011 22:33 FluXxxx wrote: i just do not know why people argue about the swarm host.
the swarm host itself does absolutely nothing. it just spawns 2 zealoty things with a 10 second timer! it has no attack.
so just discuss how well slow zealots work against a siege line might be better.
As a Protoss player I have to take issue with this. Did you SEE the amount of firepower those things survived? And how fast stuff started dying? You can't compare them because Zealots would just instadrop against that much.
Frankly I'm sure most Protoss players would be delighted if Zealots were that durable and strong.
Far as the Swarm Host goes, I think it looks alright; looks decent enough, perhaps a little boring to use but fairly solid as an idea and appropriate for zerg. The balancing on it is going to be a nightmare though methinks.
I don't think the SH is redundant, it just strenghtens an aspect of the Zerg, that may already be available in WoL, but not to an extent where additional Units that do similar things would make it too overpowered or wouldn't have any use.
What I would like to see from the SH though is, that it is strong enough to force the opponent into using detection and get out on the Map to destroy it. Like 2hatch Lurkers in SC:BW to combat FE's of the Toss. The toss either had to be out on the Map to make the Lurker have to leapfrog to buy time, he had to use storms, he had to kill the Lurkers somehow or just loose the buildings from his wall-in. As it is now, I kinda think the swam-host might be too weak; It's sth. you can burrow to constantly pressure a certain area, but I don't see it being enough pressure to force the opponent to do sth. more drastic than just adding a cannon or two.
If the waves of the spawns were fast enough though, I could really see some nice strats, like offensive Hatches/creeptumors with spines+spores(anti-observer) and burrowed SH's to pressure, similar to the Lurker+offensive buildings used in BW on certain Maps.
It could really be a decent Unit, similar in it's applications to the Lurker, but very different in how it does that nonetheless.
If they wanted to make a Zerg siege unit (which is what they state this is) it would be better if this locusts were a cloud they fire at a location that does damage over time. This cloud couldn't be stopped but you can get out of it. Lets say that total damage is something similar to tank damage but he can only fire one cloud at a time so you need to wait for one cloud to expire to use the next one. Overlapping damage does not work, you need to fire manually but range is at least 9 if not more (more will be needed if these things will need to burrow first). Friendly fire would be available so it is more similar to storm and tank blasts
This thing would be a proper siege unit while also being different then tanks and colossi.
On October 26 2011 01:27 bonifaceviii wrote: This unit is going to be a headache for Blizzard to balance, as said before. It's either going to be OP as hell or barely useful at all.
i think it is a poorly designed unit for zerg in sc2, they say that we zerg players wanted to put pressure on our opponent i say we actually dont want to put pressure on. What we want is a unit that can give us a way to stall the enemy when he pushes out. in Broodwar (lol BW ref) this was achieved by using a sim city with sunken / hatch / evo chamber and lurkers later on the defiler was added to stall the enemy's "deathball" even more.
this works because a dark swarm is cast as protection for the lurker instead of the spell the viper has which is Dweb and is a pure offensive ability. it does not give map control at all due to the fact that it is cast on the enemy's army and not cast as protection for the zerg's unit.
also the pure nature of the zerg is the fact that we can play really greedy if we know what the opponent is doing why would we ever want to put pressure on in midgame when we should be droning and preparing for endgame when we have a siege unit readily avalaible the Brood lord.
from what is released about the viper it feels to me like it is a offensive unit;
get over here spell: pull the enemy's long range unit into melee range for fast snipes so the zerg forces can overrun their position. Dweb; Cast on the enemy's army before engaging ensuring that almost all melee units will get in range without being killed. but then it's role is shifted with the fact that it gives detection, to me this just feels like a oh shit zerg needs detection if we remove the overseer.
The swarm host is noone of the things a lurker is meant to be; It has no splash, Small ammount of them will not control a certain location of the map due to the nature of spawning units.
the reason most pro-gamers want the lurker back is the fact that 2 of them on a ramp can stall the enemy for a reasonable ammount of time due to splash and being burrowed until the zerg can get their army over to the location they are defending. They make it dangerous to go on a ramp cause you have to worry about "lining them up" thus making it a very bad engagement for the enemy if they do engage.
all in all i feel like these new units are not the zerg feel of what i am used to coming from Broodwar.
when you let the enemy push over the map and just keep stalling him with 5 to 8 lurkers and maybe a swarm while you mass a force at your base to defend the push.
On October 26 2011 01:22 -Archangel- wrote: If they wanted to make a Zerg siege unit (which is what they state this is) it would be better if this locusts were a cloud they fire at a location that does damage over time. This cloud couldn't be stopped but you can get out of it. Lets say that total damage is something similar to tank damage but he can only fire one cloud at a time so you need to wait for one cloud to expire to use the next one. Overlapping damage does not work, you need to fire manually but range is at least 9 if not more (more will be needed if these things will need to burrow first). Friendly fire would be available so it is more similar to storm and tank blasts
This thing would be a proper siege unit while also being different then tanks and colossi.
That is just too much work Compared to the current operation. 1. Burrow 2. Set rally point. 3. Set lings and roaches to pounce the moment opponent engages SHs. 4.??? 5. Profit!
On October 25 2011 22:33 FluXxxx wrote: i just do not know why people argue about the swarm host.
the swarm host itself does absolutely nothing. it just spawns 2 zealoty things with a 10 second timer! it has no attack.
so just discuss how well slow zealots work against a siege line might be better.
As a Protoss player I have to take issue with this. Did you SEE the amount of firepower those things survived? And how fast stuff started dying? You can't compare them because Zealots would just instadrop against that much.
if you're talking about what was shown in OP's video, most of that damage was from Siege Tank splash damage
On October 26 2011 01:22 -Archangel- wrote: If they wanted to make a Zerg siege unit (which is what they state this is) it would be better if this locusts were a cloud they fire at a location that does damage over time. This cloud couldn't be stopped but you can get out of it. Lets say that total damage is something similar to tank damage but he can only fire one cloud at a time so you need to wait for one cloud to expire to use the next one. Overlapping damage does not work, you need to fire manually but range is at least 9 if not more (more will be needed if these things will need to burrow first). Friendly fire would be available so it is more similar to storm and tank blasts
This thing would be a proper siege unit while also being different then tanks and colossi.
That is just too much work Compared to the current operation. 1. Burrow 2. Set rally point. 3. Set lings and roaches to pounce the moment opponent engages SHs. 4.??? 5. Profit!
Too simple is the whole point. Because it is too simple to use unit will be either weak or useless. I would rather have a more interesting and more powerful unit that requires micro.
Poll: Do you think the Swarm Host will be redundant in HotS?
Yes, the Swarm Host's role is already taken by another Zerg unit. (9)
39%
No, I think the Swarm Host is fine as he is now. (7)
30%
No, but I think he needs to be balanced quite a bit. (6)
26%
Yes... other reason than stated in this poll. (1)
4%
No... other reason than stated in this poll. (0)
0%
23 total votes
Your vote: Do you think the Swarm Host will be redundant in HotS?
(Vote): No, I think the Swarm Host is fine as he is now. (Vote): No, but I think he needs to be balanced quite a bit. (Vote): Yes, the Swarm Host's role is already taken by another Zerg unit. (Vote): Yes... other reason than stated in this poll. (Vote): No... other reason than stated in this poll.
SH is a base breaker/turtle shell breaker. it breaks sim city players and turtle terrans. IMHO its not meant to be used in the zergs main army or even for defense. this unit is flawed because of that very reason because it doesnt seem to have any other practical use outside of breaking defenses..
i honestly cant see it being used offensivly in a zerg army because of how long the cooldown is to spawn locust. however counter atking with these things should be pretty good.
from the looks of it it looks like it has no range and works just like a racks/factory/robo bay/etc. that means that i can actually put these things into the fog of war somwhere, spread them out, set rally point, and my opponent will have no clue on where it is and will probally struggle to find all of them. if that is the case then that will actually be sick. they will have a hard time looking for burrowed units at random locations outside of there base somewhere.
On October 24 2011 23:51 jeeeeohn wrote: I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
Your assuming that the swarm host will be at the front by itself in a normal game, and if one does that, they are essentially sacrificing their swarm hosts, siege tanks sit near the front, "sieging" a base, but they are usually backed by some # of marines for cover, i could see these units working well with some hydra's upgraded with speed, and infestors actually, it could make for a terrifying lair tech unit composition
The swarm hosts offensive capabilities look medioce at best, as the locusts are kinda slow and occupy space, therefore block your own creeps, and on top of that they are melee. In the video there are like 4 tanks, while there are plenty more swarm hosts and they barely are able to reach the bunker. Make it a real scenario with plenty of marines and i dont see the locusts do any damage at all.
However, lets forget about its offensive capabilities for a second and look at its defensive capabilities. I dont see it having any use in a defensive position. If someone pushes your base and you deploy your swarm hosts, they will send out their locusts, which will be kited until they are dead, after which you are left with a 15 second cooldown unit that occupies 4 supply worth of army (was it 4 supply? im not sure), which is 4 less supply you could have had in other units that are actually able to defend your base.
Now imagine having like 8 of these in your base as defensive units which is 32 supply. 32 supply should be able to defend something right? I can actually see all 8 of them die to 10 marines, stim kite the locusts, stim run to the swarm hosts, kill em all. Could 10 marines charge into 8 lurkers and hope to take them out? Underwhelming is the only word that comes to my mind regarding the swarm host.
The swarm host looks pretty weak right now and i dont see it being used in its current condition.
On October 24 2011 23:51 jeeeeohn wrote: I don't think the Swarm Host is redundant, but I do agree that it doesn't feel swarmy in the slightest. Big clunky units that shoot out glorified broodlings once every 15 seconds? How worthless. A Terran will wait for them to expire, scan, then stim, then destroy them. Tada, dead Swarm Hosts. I can see their defensive potential, or maybe nydus/drop harass, but as a siege unit it's pretty terrible.
Your assuming that the swarm host will be at the front by itself in a normal game, and if one does that, they are essentially sacrificing their swarm hosts, siege tanks sit near the front, "sieging" a base, but they are usually backed by some # of marines for cover, i could see these units working well with some hydra's upgraded with speed, and infestors actually, it could make for a terrifying lair tech unit composition
Terrifiyng Lair tech army who need Hive tech upgrades ... ( Hydra speed ) And with different upgrades path ( melee for locusts, range for hydra )
It is a 'siege' unit in the sense that it puts pressure on your opponent.
It is not a 'siege tank' in that it does not do massive damage to anything within its range and LoS.
I have seen someone several pages back criticising the SH on the basis that a ball of fifteen marines and a couple tanks will hold off a few SH rallying to a third or fourth base all day.
What they did not recognise is that a main purpose of the SH is to 'pin' parts of the T and P army to defense, allowing the much more mobile Z main army to attack elsewhere - or, if the opponent does take his army to break the SH siege, to backstab. Both of which are behaviours well in keeping with the 'agile' design philosophy of Z.
I would also like to draw your attention to other forms of harassment such as mutas and MM drops. In both cases, the harassed player must choose to do one of the following: - mass static defences, in which case the harass has succeeded in diverting resources away from army value; - leave part of the defender's army at home to keep the mineral line safe, in which case the harass has diverted resources from the player's main army; - respond to incoming harassment fast (stalker warpins, etc), requiring a display of high-level awareness and skilful execution; - go all-in, and hope the harasser invested too much resources in such harassment.
The SH fills a very similar role, except its harassment is siege-like in having the quality of relentlessness. Unless the defender forces back the SH (in doing so possibly exposing weaknesses elsewhere which the mobile Z army can exploit best of all races), they are forced to commit resources to defence which weakens their main army against the Z's push.
If anything, I'd call the SH's role 'siege-harass'. And I should also note that given the huge hp and damage on the Locusts, they are more slow-slow-zealots than broodlings.
The SH will also change up ZvZ midgame, as locusts will chew away at slings/banes and roaches due to their short range, and encourage more hydra usage. Especially banes. Poor army micro could mean losing a lot of banes to free units. Tactically sniping the viper's Eyestalk recipient will become more important, and tug-of-war sounds like fun for all!
Then let us look at synergies: - Infestor FG to lock down units sent to kill SHs (while the Locusts catch up and dice - no stutter step under FG!); - Viper 'Dark Swarm' on same units or defensive units to allow Locusts to close... slowly...; - Locusts tanking defensive fire for speedlings or even broodlings; - Viper 'MK scorpion pull' can yank expensive units into the path of the locusts, forcing a more active response from the opponent. - SH drops! Two or four SH in an ovie, dropped into a base, spawning free harass (depending how long it takes for the SH to unload, burrow, spawn, unburrow and reload). - Pre-emptively burrow an SH near the expected third and rally locusts to the third (not only giving away timing as a burrowed ling would, but putting pressure on the expo even before it's up).
On October 26 2011 04:16 Wildflame wrote: It is a 'siege' unit in the sense that it puts pressure on your opponent.
It is not a 'siege tank' in that it does not do massive damage to anything within its range and LoS.
I have seen someone several pages back criticising the SH on the basis that a ball of fifteen marines and a couple tanks will hold off a few SH rallying to a third or fourth base all day.
What they did not recognise is that a main purpose of the SH is to 'pin' parts of the T and P army to defense, allowing the much more mobile Z main army to attack elsewhere - or, if the opponent does take his army to break the SH siege, to backstab. Both of which are behaviours well in keeping with the 'agile' design philosophy of Z.
I would also like to draw your attention to other forms of harassment such as mutas and MM drops. In both cases, the harassed player must choose to do one of the following: - mass static defences, in which case the harass has succeeded in diverting resources away from army value; - leave part of the defender's army at home to keep the mineral line safe, in which case the harass has diverted resources from the player's main army; - respond to incoming harassment fast (stalker warpins, etc), requiring a display of high-level awareness and skilful execution; - go all-in, and hope the harasser invested too much resources in such harassment.
The SH fills a very similar role, except its harassment is siege-like in having the quality of relentlessness. Unless the defender forces back the SH (in doing so possibly exposing weaknesses elsewhere which the mobile Z army can exploit best of all races), they are forced to commit resources to defence which weakens their main army against the Z's push.
If anything, I'd call the SH's role 'siege-harass'. And I should also note that given the huge hp and damage on the Locusts, they are more slow-slow-zealots than broodlings.
The SH will also change up ZvZ midgame, as locusts will chew away at slings/banes and roaches due to their short range, and encourage more hydra usage. Especially banes. Poor army micro could mean losing a lot of banes to free units. Tactically sniping the viper's Eyestalk recipient will become more important, and tug-of-war sounds like fun for all!
Then let us look at synergies: - Infestor FG to lock down units sent to kill SHs (while the Locusts catch up and dice - no stutter step under FG!); - Viper 'Dark Swarm' on same units or defensive units to allow Locusts to close... slowly...; - Locusts tanking defensive fire for speedlings or even broodlings; - Viper 'MK scorpion pull' can yank expensive units into the path of the locusts, forcing a more active response from the opponent. - SH drops! Two or four SH in an ovie, dropped into a base, spawning free harass (depending how long it takes for the SH to unload, burrow, spawn, unburrow and reload). - Pre-emptively burrow an SH near the expected third and rally locusts to the third (not only giving away timing as a burrowed ling would, but putting pressure on the expo even before it's up).
The problems i see currently, is price. Gas is precious. 100 gas for a unit doing what i saw is kinda lacking. The tanks do more than just put pressure, they deal directly with the baneling problem. 8 mutas and 32 zerglings or 8 swarm hosts?? They actually have to do something when the engagement comes, otherwise really strong marine tank pushes will make it hard to use them. Mutas directly engage with the tanks, slowing the push down. I literally think that Terran could just attack into it. Everything in BW comes down to how much something costs.
I mean we need more info. But I don't like the design of this unit. You have to account that gas is the major limiting thing though.
On October 26 2011 03:58 gh0un wrote: The swarm hosts offensive capabilities look medioce at best, as the locusts are kinda slow and occupy space, therefore block your own creeps, and on top of that they are melee. In the video there are like 4 tanks, while there are plenty more swarm hosts and they barely are able to reach the bunker. Make it a real scenario with plenty of marines and i dont see the locusts do any damage at all.
However, lets forget about its offensive capabilities for a second and look at its defensive capabilities. I dont see it having any use in a defensive position. If someone pushes your base and you deploy your swarm hosts, they will send out their locusts, which will be kited until they are dead, after which you are left with a 15 second cooldown unit that occupies 4 supply worth of army (was it 4 supply? im not sure), which is 4 less supply you could have had in other units that are actually able to defend your base.
Now imagine having like 8 of these in your base as defensive units which is 32 supply. 32 supply should be able to defend something right? I can actually see all 8 of them die to 10 marines, stim kite the locusts, stim run to the swarm hosts, kill em all. Could 10 marines charge into 8 lurkers and hope to take them out? Underwhelming is the only word that comes to my mind regarding the swarm host.
The swarm host looks pretty weak right now and i dont see it being used in its current condition.
exactly my thoughts. For defense it's quite useless. You pretty much pay price of SH to get 2 temporary locusts, because battle going to be over after SH's coldown ends.
I'm interested in trying it out. I hear it has massive range... I guess infinite range as long as the locusts are alive. I'm not sure it was displayed perfectly in the Blizzcon video... against several tanks and bunkers seems like a huge uphill battle. I guess the point was made though.
Either way, from a Zerg perspective I like them. From a non-Zerg perspective, they may be fairly annoying. Time will tell if they are a fun unit or what.
With some tuning the swarm host could be really cool. Make the cooldown equal to the locusts' "timer" and give them a hydra-esque boost on creep (think stim/speedling fast) and you can set two SH that no one SHOULD want to attack into. This would give zerg a defenders' advantage on par with terran (at least lategame) and that means more harass/small army trades/'stretching thin' in all matchups (again, in lategame - wonderful for PvZ).
Now just replace the colossus with a good unit and there's some serious progress.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
exactly, sc2 is a game where attacking with few units into a lot of units means you do no damage. In video the only reason why bunkers died is because tanks done all the damage.
On October 25 2011 22:33 FluXxxx wrote: i just do not know why people argue about the swarm host.
the swarm host itself does absolutely nothing. it just spawns 2 zealoty things with a 10 second timer! it has no attack.
so just discuss how well slow zealots work against a siege line might be better.
That's exactly the impression I've got from the video. Unless you have a lot of them, it's like sending a slow zealot or two to a marine ball every 10 sec (?). It's actually comical if you think about it. ^^
It just doesn't seem swarmy enough to me. They need to make the locusts more in number, less in health, and faster. Also it needs to spawn faster. At this point I don't see the utility of them for offense or defense. On the defense you won't need a unit like this because the opponent's army is bigger than yours and having infestors with AOE damage is going to be better. On offense they don't spawn quick enough to do anything about entrenched fortifications that don't involve siege tanks who do friendly splash. I see this having limited use in tvz and almost no use in pvz and just forget zvz.
To me this is the epitome of blizzard dumbing down the units for lower level players. To me it's basically a less micro intensive version of the lurker that doesn't do as much damage at higher levels. If this doesn't get changed it's going to be one of those units you don't see anywhere beyond platinum.
This thing has good synergy with the new Viper's "dark swarm" ability that reduces range to one.
Imagine burrowing these things in the same situation as the demo video while simultaneously casting "dark swarm" and reducing their units ranges to 1. They have to either retreat or take the damage head-on (which is all free to you). Even if you get the marines to move back out of "dark swarm" you can move your locusts and stuff forward a bit, driving them back, or sending in lings and locusts at the same time.
They also have decent synergy with lings: send in the locusts first, which will absorb siege tank fire, and send in a wave of lings right behind them. 90 hp = 2-3 hits to kill spread-out locusts, so the tanks wont be hitting clumped up lings instead, unless the other player micros.
Or turn all your lings into banelings and use these locusts as a free meatshield.
This unit has problems, but it isn't hopeless. The biggest problem I see is that like carriers, this unit will have to be built up. One of these wont do anything, but 6 will be kind of fearsome when combined with other things.
However, unless it proves to have good synergy with lings (beyond my humble theorycrafting), it might only serve to overlap with the zerg's best mineral dump, which isnt overly useful as you need to spend those minerals anyway.
However, it could be a great way of freeing up supply, larvae and resources for other units in the mid-lategame so you dont have to rebuild lings and waste larvae. Dunno how useful that would be.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
exactly, sc2 is a game where attacking with few units into a lot of units means you do no damage. In video the only reason why bunkers died is because tanks done all the damage.
Doesn't friendly fire only deals 30% of the damage? In that case, 2 round of 6 tanks wave is 180 dmg friendly fire and 220 dmg from locust (not including the dead marines).
And does it really matter if the damage is from friendly fire or locus? In either case, the point of the unit is achieved
I'm thinking drop them in a base spread them and burrow. Couldn't that be really fukin annoying? Although at first glance this unit is crap it may find it's place after a few patches, mods, bufs & nerfs ;-)
I was kind of hoping if they gave zerg a siege unit, it'd be a baneling catapult.. kind of like a trebuchet.
not to be I guess. I must say when I first saw it I thought it looked redundant, the speed looks from the video, like the terran can dodge the locust, scan, stim and your swarm host is dead after achieving nothing. But then, too fast and it'd be overpowered. I think it'll see a lot of changes in beta, it'll either be too easy to deal with, or be so hard to defend against.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
exactly, sc2 is a game where attacking with few units into a lot of units means you do no damage. In video the only reason why bunkers died is because tanks done all the damage.
Doesn't friendly fire only deals 30% of the damage? In that case, 2 round of 6 tanks wave is 180 dmg friendly fire and 220 dmg from locust (not including the dead marines).
And does it really matter if the damage is from friendly fire or locus? In either case, the point of the unit is achieved
No, because lots of armies don't have friendly fire
On October 26 2011 01:27 bonifaceviii wrote: This unit is going to be a headache for Blizzard to balance, as said before. It's either going to be OP as hell or barely useful at all.
I entirely disagree, this unit has a massive amount of things that can be tweaked about it to subtly change it's balance that it shouldn't be too hard to get it to the right balance level.
Personally id like to see what would happen if a large amount of them were dropped in somebodys base just outside vision...
theres a whole lot of balancing blizzard need to do yet hopefully it works and is well balanced when it gets implimented but i dont think were at the point where ideas for units should be thrown out. I atleast see some possibility for this to be useful for zerg
On October 26 2011 05:47 Archybaldie wrote: Personally id like to see what would happen if a large amount of them were dropped in somebodys base just outside vision...
The same like when you drop a large amount of other units into someones base whiteout him noticing.
You fuck up his base until his army is there, then he will repell your forces or lose on the spot.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
exactly, sc2 is a game where attacking with few units into a lot of units means you do no damage. In video the only reason why bunkers died is because tanks done all the damage.
Doesn't friendly fire only deals 30% of the damage? In that case, 2 round of 6 tanks wave is 180 dmg friendly fire and 220 dmg from locust (not including the dead marines).
And does it really matter if the damage is from friendly fire or locus? In either case, the point of the unit is achieved
No, because lots of armies don't have friendly fire
good thing the only viable way to play TvZ is siegetank/x then.
Just like siege tanks are awful against protoss, it should be alright for zerg too.
It's still a good unit, the locust spawn does ridiculous amount of dps and is pretty bulky. Those numbers can even be tweak to make it better, but really don't expect it to go any higher than currently. Zerg at its current macro mechanics will be too ridiculously good if they have a high power siege unit that prevents early and mid game pressure from terran and protoss
I Think the design and use for the unit is all good, all the other things can be adjusted for balance as long as the principle of the unit is a good one.
Frankly I'm disappointed with the Swarm Host. I wanted zerg to get a stealth unit that could attack while stealthed. I also wanted another unit with long range. I wanted a unit that could deal ranged splash damage. This is not that unit. In fact this unit has none of these because its attack can be killed before it does damage.
I think a couple things would fix this unit for me. 1. Make the Locusts burrow move to their target. 2. Make the Locusts fly like the concept art. 3. Make the Locusts jump(charge) like the zergling campaign upgrade. 4. Make the Swarm Host spawn 2 units every 15 seconds (like it is now) if the Locusts are killed before the 24 second timer it resets the cooldown. 5. Make the Swarm Host shoot the locusts long range. (possibly impact AoE)
this thing looks good, dunno why theres so much hate for it...
1) its t2, so dont compare it with broodlords 2) you can constantly tackle a pushing terran without using units, thereby finding the best timing to commit with all your forces, forcing a slower push, possibly a stim and or friendly fire from the tanks 3) offensively you can do basically the same... push up a ramp without a worry fe
simply speaking, while this unit does not seem overwhelming, it allows zerg to be cost effective to a certain degree, before that, lings and roaches went down the drain left and right...
The big question is the tech cost. If there is no tech cost I can see it used a lot to replace using zerglings in suicide roles like poking at the enemy to scout unit composition, some levels of harassment and of course general combat (now with more dps per unit surface area). It of course wouldn't replace other units in cases where mobility/burst hp/damage is critical, but they'd work wonders in small skirmishes.
If there is a significant tech cost then it may be mainly used in specialized strategies built around tight timings.
The combat use of the unit in mass is either as a damage sponge for ranged units (like zealot-dragoon mech-line break in sc1 TvP where goons back off after zealots die) or as a persistent harassment unit on simcities with high hp buildings but very little dps output.
This unit would not work anywhere close to a lurkers (i mean burrow walk banelings....) and is more of a grinding unit then anything.
Another problem i see with the swarm host is that you cant really use it well with other units. Other siege units work well with other units supporting them, like Colossus or Tanks, because they can shoot from behind them. You can place units in front of your tanks/colossus in order to keep them safe from enemy units, while they siege your opponent.
How exactly would that work with the swarm host? You put units in front of the swarm host in order to defend them against enemy units (because lets face it, if they are undefended they will get stim marine killed in a matter of seconds) and by doing that you prevent them from using their "siege" ability. The locusts are slow moving melee units, how exactly are they supposed to siege through your own units without pathing an absolutely horrible way and probably get stuck in your own army.
I cant believe how garbage the Swarm host sounds. Their pride is just too big to just reintroduce the lurker i guess.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
And how many swarm hosts do you use in conjunction with ling/bling/muta in order to draw tank fire? 2 swarm hosts? 4? Frankly i dont see 4-8 locusts do anything at all, they will just get killed in a blink of an eye, even before they get into a position where they could assists your ling/bling/muta.
Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down.
If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply. I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts. They are useless as far as i am concerned.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line
Whats wrong with just going ling/bling/muta/viper? Sounds like a much stronger composition (and supply efficient at that) than if you added a swarm host to it.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
The viper can already remove tank fire, and it doesn't require the infestation pit like the swarm host does. The swarm host is good against tanks, and that is pretty much it.
On October 26 2011 07:45 gh0un wrote: Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down.
I think the swarm host is too underwhelming for this reason, you need quite a lot to be truly effective, cutting into the real meat of the army.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
And how many swarm hosts do you use in conjunction with ling/bling/muta in order to draw tank fire? 2 swarm hosts? 4? Frankly i dont see 4-8 locusts do anything at all, they will just get killed in a blink of an eye, even before they get into a position where they could assists your ling/bling/muta.
Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down.
If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply. I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts. They are useless as far as i am concerned.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line
Whats wrong with just going ling/bling/muta/viper? Sounds like a much stronger composition (and supply efficient at that) than if you added a swarm host to it.
furthermore all the lings will have surrounded everything and there is nothing for the locusts to do except blowing up because their lives expire!
The idea of how the unit works is good, but the build they showed at Blizzcon was terrible, which is kinda funny because everyone other unit displayed looks like it needed a nerf (shredder cough cough). If they toughen the unit up, stagger the spawning, and/or increase the spawn rate, then the unit could be useful.
Out of the new units this is perhaps my least favorite. Not only is it a clunky unit, but once again we see more overlap between the units and the CD is a result of the 90hp per spawn (unnecessary and you aren't really letting the players micro/maneuverability shine).
One thing is certain; we're going to see this unit tweaked beyond belief.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
And how many swarm hosts do you use in conjunction with ling/bling/muta in order to draw tank fire? 2 swarm hosts? 4? Frankly i dont see 4-8 locusts do anything at all, they will just get killed in a blink of an eye, even before they get into a position where they could assists your ling/bling/muta.
Thats probably the reason why they used like 8 swarm hosts in their demonstration video instead of like 4, because it wouldve looked retarded how fast the locusts go down.
If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply. I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts. They are useless as far as i am concerned.
On October 25 2011 18:25 Sated wrote: I don't think people are realising that you can burrow them in a staggered manner so you have a constant flow of Locusts coming out of them. Once you've set up this staggered "siege", you can protect them with expendable units like Roaches whilst the Locusts deal constant damage. It's a fairly strong contain if you pay attention to it.
Imagine sending slow zealots one by one to a marine/marauder ball. That's what it sounds like to me. Rofl.
Then imagine if the Zerg had an army of ling/baneling/muta as well, complimented by a couple of swarm hosts drawing tank fire while your lings surround/banes get good hits off.
You can't just think of new units in a vacuum, you have to think about the possibilities within the race.
add to that the viper blinding cloud and you have a very potent army as you charge the siege line
Whats wrong with just going ling/bling/muta/viper? Sounds like a much stronger composition (and supply efficient at that) than if you added a swarm host to it.
this. why do people bring up the viper combo with swarm hosts? why would you do that as a zerg? you would just build lings and viper. there is absolutely no reason to build a swarm host. they are slower to get, need additional tech, cost gas, have a ramp up time, the locusts are slower than speedlings and the use besides this scenario is limited compared to zerglings for the same cost. and this was stated several times before in this thread already. it will also be really hard to balance them for the role blizzard gave them. they will be either too good or just suck. and this is also no news in this thread.
edit: to add something possibly new. if you get t2 and have an infestation pit why should you ever build a swarm host instead of an infestor? if you want a burrowed unit to harass mineral lines you build.... an infestor as infested terran do the same to workers (additionally they are ranged) if you need AOE you build infestors, no question. if there is a tank / marine army knocking at your door, you will want to have a viper anyway so the infestor is great to accompany it and root the units inside the disruption web.
in which cases does a zerg really need this unit? i could imagin the zerg being larvae starved so not enough eggs for lings. even then i find it questionable that swarm hosts will turn the tides in zergs favor.
edit2:
On October 26 2011 08:17 Bactrian wrote: Don't see why everyone is complaining about overlap, it's obviously anti siege tank, and no other T2 unit has that role except possibly mutalisk.
If you use 8 swarm host to support your ling/bling/muta, thats 32 supply. I would rather build 64 lings to support my ling/bling/muta than 8 swarm hosts. They are useless as far as i am concerned.
Surface area. Swarm host locus is about 3 times strong then a Zergling and if you are short on surface area it can be useful. 8*2*3 = 48 zergling worth of combat power at only while taking up only 16 zergling worth of space. Its worst then 64 lings, yes, but not that much worst.
Repetition: While throwing all 64 zerglings to break the opponent is more powerful, they can only be used once. For certain operations a persistent stream works just fine. For example you can kill scv in PF protected mineral lines, break down wall in backed by light ranged dps, or constant attrition against enemy melee range fighters and lightly defended areas at no cost to yourself. You are getting something like 150minerals worth of combat power (3x2*25 minerals) percycle and after ~4 cycles it unit would have paid itself if used as a simple replacement to zerglings.
I don't really see it as a primarily a "push break" option as much as persistent cheap harass unit that can be repurposed for push breaking. Against opponents with insufficient ranged dps to kill them all before they do damage, they'd be very annoying indeed, and your ideal attack position is usually NOT where the deathblob resides, but where the other guy thinks a tank on high ground is sufficient to defend his workers or buildings.
In terms of use, I'd expect it to be somewhere around a reaper, guardian or SC1 queen in terms of general usefulness.
The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
well those uses are really lame and not needed. just spread your lings for vision... the other thing is they will be really hard to be balanced since blizzard obviously means they should be used against tanks. an imbalanced buff that would make them viable against tanks would be something like hardened shields. but that would make them totally OP if massed. another totally different approach: make them like thors or mothership. you can only have 1. then buff this thing to be a REAL swarm host.
well i got 1 scenario where they COULD be useful but it heavily depends on the unit they are good to combo with: HYDRAS. IF blizzard manages to make hydras with increased speed and perhaps other buffs viable versus terrans. the locusts would be good tanks for them. still in their current state hydras melt to siege tanks and it would need a big meta game shift to see hydras in ZvT. but maybe something like swarm host/infestor/hydra will be a viable army comp.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
I am worried that the locusts are going to die before they ever deal damage. I really like the hardened shield idea. The locusts could definitely use that to get in melee range. The locusts need something to make the Swarm Host less of a vanilla unit. We dont need another one trick pony aka: Hydralisk.
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
There are 2 easy ways to calm your (the OP's) concerns and leave the Swarm Host as it is:
#1 The Locust should not be auto-cast. You have to be there every 24 seconds (*or whatever) in order to create said locusts. Depending on how badly that would nerf the unit, the Locusts would either be able to be manual-cast more often and/or the Locusts would do more damage or have more armor or HP or blah.
Depending on a player's ee han timing the Swarm Hosts would be more and moreso effective at holding an area down with constant pressure. Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by always being there to launch that new Locust! this would also allow for the STOP LURKERS EFFECT w00t), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy.
OR (not both) if the opinion is that the unit sucks and it overlaps other units:
#2 to reference the Slow, Methodical, Grind (we all wish the Swarm Could truly be constant) - Let's imagine 4 Swarm Hosts. I move in with them. I burrow one, count to 3, burrow another, count to 3, etc etc. Now, I'm not math genius, nor do I know any math at all, but that would create a locust every 6 Blizzard seconds. (I hope I'm right - otherwise how embarrassing...)
Then, can't we imagine a emerging setup / strategy whereas the Swarm Hosts are never meant to fire all at once, but depending on how many enemy units there are, they are all meant to be firing independently and in a mechanical, constant manner. This strat I believe would indeed help the Zerg hold a section of the map, either right before, right after, or even during the sometime intermittent waves of The Swarm.
Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by taking notice of the timings so that staggering the attacks is more effective), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy. The more SH, the more constant The Swarm can be.
ya? (I don't like the other idea about the cloak ground carriers) I don't think this overlaps with Infested Terrans. I don't think this overlaps with Broodlings.
edit: typo
This post got lost. I hope to try to bring attention to it. In this forum, the above post is the first post to mention staggered attacks. I also go through one other suggestion for the unit's use. Since I posted this, others have started talking about staggering units but without homage. What I intend to to by reposting this is bring attention to these 2 ideas as far as responses go to what the OP's post originally said. It would make me so happy if the OP would read and respond :0
The SH has a huge chance to be the MOST brood war-y unit we have considering it's timing (if it's manual cast) or if using the stagger burrow technique (both require focus moreso than most current WoL unit combos).
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
There are 2 easy ways to calm your (the OP's) concerns and leave the Swarm Host as it is:
#1 The Locust should not be auto-cast. You have to be there every 24 seconds (*or whatever) in order to create said locusts. Depending on how badly that would nerf the unit, the Locusts would either be able to be manual-cast more often and/or the Locusts would do more damage or have more armor or HP or blah.
Depending on a player's ee han timing the Swarm Hosts would be more and moreso effective at holding an area down with constant pressure. Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by always being there to launch that new Locust! this would also allow for the STOP LURKERS EFFECT w00t), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy.
OR (not both) if the opinion is that the unit sucks and it overlaps other units:
#2 to reference the Slow, Methodical, Grind (we all wish the Swarm Could truly be constant) - Let's imagine 4 Swarm Hosts. I move in with them. I burrow one, count to 3, burrow another, count to 3, etc etc. Now, I'm not math genius, nor do I know any math at all, but that would create a locust every 6 Blizzard seconds. (I hope I'm right - otherwise how embarrassing...)
Then, can't we imagine a emerging setup / strategy whereas the Swarm Hosts are never meant to fire all at once, but depending on how many enemy units there are, they are all meant to be firing independently and in a mechanical, constant manner. This strat I believe would indeed help the Zerg hold a section of the map, either right before, right after, or even during the sometime intermittent waves of The Swarm.
Of course the number of Swarm Hosts present, coupled with attentive micro (by taking notice of the timings so that staggering the attacks is more effective), would exponentially grow the effectiveness of the strategy. The more SH, the more constant The Swarm can be.
ya? (I don't like the other idea about the cloak ground carriers) I don't think this overlaps with Infested Terrans. I don't think this overlaps with Broodlings.
edit: typo
This post got lost. I hope to try to bring attention to it. In this forum, the above post is the first post to mention staggered attacks. I also go through one other suggestion for the unit's use. Since I posted this, others have started talking about staggering units but without homage. What I intend to to by reposting this is bring attention to these 2 ideas as far as responses go to what the OP's post originally said. It would make me so happy if the OP would read and respond :0
The SH has a huge chance to be the MOST brood war-y unit we have considering it's timing (if it's manual cast) or if using the stagger burrow technique (both require focus moreso than most current WoL unit combos).
Wouldn't burrowing all at once be worse than all of them coming out at the same time? Like nexus wars, and those kinds of maps. You want to sync them up because it's stronger if they are together. If you stagger then the opponent's units will have an easy time dealing them a small trickle of units, they won't even be a problem. But of course you also have the downtime where the opponent goes, so in some cases it would be good to stagger.
I definitely think it should be autocast, though. I think if you're trying to set a unit up and have it control some space, you shouldn't have to babysit it that much. More importantly, it's not a spellcaster, it's an attacking unit. It shouldn't have it's only attack be a manual spell.
I don't really like my carrier idea much, either.
I definitely think this unit, as-is (or with some number adjustments) can have a fine place in the game. I just thought the role could potentially be played by a slightly more interesting unit... Less like the other units in terms of being interesting, not actually having a different role. It's more like it's a similar ability filling a different role rather than a different ability filling the same role, which is probably how the OP got interpreted by most.
why can't the locusts: have less health spawn faster and hop like grasshoppers? i would think it would make them more effective (less tank fire) but marines can still clean them up. plus, (and this is a big plus) they could be used with the main zerg army since they won't be competing for surface area like broodlings do.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
Actually there are only 3 tanks. The other 3 are spread out so far that they dont shoot until the locusts already reached the bunker (they actually siege their own bunkers down), which basically means that you would need 9 Swarmhosts to actually have some locusts reach 3 tanks.
No terran has tanks sitting around on their own, tanks are always supported by marines. If you already need 9 swarmhosts in order to actually reach 3 tanks (in order to do zero damage on their own, because frankly they immediately get killed, the most damage comes from friendly splash) then i dont see the point in the swarm host.
As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video.
Swarm hosts defensive capabilities are almost non existant, so its either that they work against defensive lines (doesnt matter how much damage they do as long as they do some) or they dont work against defensive lines (they dont do any damage and die before they reach the enemy). They either force a retreat (which is OP considering these units are free and have much more range than tanks), or they dont force anything because they die too fast, which makes them UP.
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
Lurker is already planned for HotS, it's just not for zerg and it's called shredder. It also 3x stronger and hits air.
I am not sure why they can't add area control unit for zerg (when it's abviously very needed here), but they add such unit for terran who is already pretty much invincible with PFs, tanks and bunkers.
In order to analyze the Host Swarmer, as well as some issues that aren't covered by any changes, I first need to outline some of zerg's fundamental weaknesses, most of which were covered in the developer panel, and some of which were not.
1) Very difficult to press an advantage in the midgame. Dustin Browder touched on this in the developer panel. He noted that zerg really only has one option going into the midgame with an advantage, expand. The problem with this is that expanding when you already have an advantage doesn't help all that much, in fact it can give your opponent time to catch back up. The reason this issue exists is because zerg lacks a siege unit at lair tech. Blizzard's solution in hots was to give zerg a siege unit in the form of the Host Swarmer.
2) Lack of space controlling units. Space controlling units, such as siege tanks and the new shredders are units that don't play well in a big ball, but are good at holding a decent amount of space against small forces. A good example of a space controlling unit is the siege tank. In HotS blizzard is trying to help all the races with space control through the use of shredders, recall on nexus, and host swarmers. Unfortunately after playing around with host swarmers a bit I really don't see them filling this role very well.
3) Poor anti air. Zerg t1-1.5 anti air is non existent, and hydras aren't really all that great offensively until hive tech. I'll just say this now, dealing with oracles is going to be a huge pain in the !@# for zerg at hatch tech. If an oracle or two zip in, block all your minerals and leave repeatedly, you are going to be in for a world of hurt. This is one point that I felt was left out in the panel discussion.
4) No 1 supply unit. Zerg is supposed to have a swarmy feel to it. Browder hinted that he thinks host swarmers continuous unit production will add to this aspect of Zerg. However, I'm not so certain. In WoL it feels like terran is almost swarmier than zerg. The mass marine builds are very swarm-esq. When playing against them it feels like you are trying to beat back wave after wave of never ending units. After you kill off one group there is another group knocking at your door. I really think that zerg should have that kind of feel to it. The host swarmer contributes to this role, but I still think that it would be better to have a solid 1 supply unit like in BW.
5) Lack of ranged units. This issue is what causes zergs to complain every time Blizzard showcases new 1v1 maps. You can't abuse cliffs or chokes with melee units, it just doesn't work. Short range units also are very bad at dealing with things like sige tanks on the low ground covering marines being elevated into your base. For this issue I feel like the host swarmer really hurts zerg. Locusts will just take up more of the short supply of melee surface area. Melee units scale very poorly with large numbers, and host swarmers are just going to make that situation worse. Swarm race is one thing, cluster $%^- race is very much another. The viper spells help a bit with this one, but I still forsee problems.
6) Lack of ranged AoE. This is another big issue that is evidenced in WoL, and is also one of the biggest issues with the Infestor. When WoL launched zerg had several big design flaws, mainly the lack of mid-game anti-armor, and the lack of a ranged aoe unit. Both of these niches are incredibly important, which is why Blizzard eventually decided to give both of those roles to the anti-massive, and cloaked attacking unit, the infestor. The infestor now fills waaay to many roles, which makes it good against everything, and is why blizzard recently decided to nerf fungal and NP. I was really hoping for a ranged AoE unit in HotS so that the infestor could go back to its original role as an anti-massive / support unit, instead of a primary damage dealer. Ranged aoe is also very desirable for space control.
The new HotS units solve some of these issues, but completely ignore or exacerbate others. The biggest issue that I see is that Hots adds another melee unit to an already low range / melee heavy race. Host Swarmers also are far too similar to Broodlords, I mean they basically are broodlords that can't fly, and can't get their broodlings right to the fight. I'd much rather see a lurker-like unit that has a long range aoe attack as a siege unit. The free units are great and all, but I think that balancing this unit will be rather tough and I also think that it is too similar to the Broodlord. In general I think that a ranged AoE unit would have been a much better addition.
I think that the simplest solution set would be the following: 1) Cut the Host Swarmer, it is too much like the Broodlord. 2) Swap Hydra and Roach tech, cut hydra dps in half, make them 1 supply. (range upgrade at lair, speed upgrade at hive) Swap roach and hydra cost. 3) Introduce a t2-t2.5 ranged aoe siege unit (aka lurker or something new) 4) Buff roachs to justify their new cost. (100/50). Maybe up their dps by 25% and give them 1 more armor. (make them a tanking unit) 5) Revert Fungal back to 8 seconds, no more bonus damage to armored, revert NP range nerf.
On October 26 2011 22:25 BritWrangler wrote: How the hell can it be redundant when the game hasn't even been released yet? Give blizzard time to make changes and it may well be very useful.
how about you just don't talk if you have nothing to add to the discussion? we are discussing the CURRENT design as it was just presented at blizzcon... we're giving the feedback blizzard ASKED FOR. and the current design has many flaws. read the excellent post of Klystron, just 2 post above your crap and another dumb poster and maybe you can add something actually useful instead of "trust in blizzard"... it's disgusting to read shitty posts like this after an excellent analysis that is well worth discussing...
on topic: i totally agree with Klystron especially the point that swarm hosts suck at cliffs with their melee spawns really shows how much blizzard contradicts their own intended design of a space controlling unit. a single cliff will render the swarm hosts useless as the melee locusts will have to walk up and down and take a looooong route to get there if they don't expire before they reach their target.
I think the problem is that the swarm host is seen as a contain unit, but it can be used like a siege tank on a defensive position with infestors, wouldn't it be great if you can lock your enemies with fungal growth and send them locusts and zerglings or wtv to finish them off?
Another thing is the similarity between this unit and the broodlord. To be honest, I believe it's too early to say that they work the same way. The broodlord is a flying slow unit whereas the SH is, and probably will be, relatively fast (and, of course, faster on creep). Thus, it's a bit harder to kill them, like in the video of the OP, if the T decides to unsiege and siege back a bit closer to the SH, a Z can unborrow away of the siege tank's range.
The SH must be used in conjunction with other units, like the infestor, the Viper (HoTs - for the acid cloud ability, this will help locusts survive longer), etc.
I'd have to agree with the OP on this. It seems very fundamentally similar to the Brood Lord, and even the Infestor's spawn Infested Terran abilitiy, to a lesser degree. Fundamentally, the Host appears to be flawed in that your Locusts are going to just get blasted by Siege Tanks before they can even get into position to do any damage. It also appears that there is really nothing stopping a Terran from waiting until the insanely long cooldown on the spawning is up, running in with a few Marines or god forbid, Mauraders, and just cleaning them up under the cover of tank fire.
I really don't know. I don't main Zerg, but we will have to wait and see. I think that Blizzard has at least acknolwedged the races major problems as it stands and is trying to resolve them, however, it seems like they have a very specific theme in mind for these units, which may limit their potential effectiveness/design, as we have seen here with the Swarm host.
On October 26 2011 22:25 BritWrangler wrote: How the hell can it be redundant when the game hasn't even been released yet? Give blizzard time to make changes and it may well be very useful.
Look at the unit, look at how it works. It is quite literally a ground based Brood Lord.
What does the BL do? It spawns a continuous stream of free melee units.
What does the Swarm Host do? It spawns a continuous stream of free melee units.
Its the exact same concept. Sure it is still a decent unit, it is like getting Brood Lords without having to wait for Hive and Greater Spire.
So basically Zerg has 2 units that do exactly the same thing. The only difference is that one is a bit cheaper and quicker to tech to, and the other is a bit better.
Doesnt this unit add problem to deathballs? The original problem of ultras before charge/burrow was that they were blocked by units. Now the locusts will just block some other units
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers.
Have fun with lurkers.
And swarm hosts wont die even faster without doing any actual damage? At least the lurker's damage was direct and front loaded, and splash. I also disagree that a Terran bio ball would ""roflroll" 6 stop lurkers.
The protoss deathball is another matter entirely, but there are other solutions to that problem.
Lurker + Infestor would also be sickly awesome to watch.
EDIT: The point above about terrain features such as cliffs is also spot-on. Another reason why Blizzard should just give us the Lurker instead of trying to disguise it as something else that is far shittier.
On October 25 2011 06:26 SpaceYeti wrote: I don't understand why we can't just have the lurker back...
Stop Swarm Host < Stop Lurker Swarm Host drops < Lurker Drops Swarm Host zone control < Lurker zone control
I don't think the Swarm Host looks very good at controlling space at all. I just see these dying to enemy fire before they even reach their target. And why would I ever use swarm hosts vs siege tanks if I have Blinding Cloud?
Not excited about this unit at all.
I miss my lurkers. I'd even be okay with them removing burrow from banes if i could just have my lurkers back.
Terran ball of 8 marauders with medivacs + scan will roflroll your 6 lurkers so hard it won't be funny. Protoss death ball with 4 Colossi + observer will roll your 12 lurkers.
Have fun with lurkers.
And swarm hosts wont die even faster without doing any actual damage? At least the lurker's damage was direct and front loaded, and splash. I also disagree that a Terran bio ball would ""roflroll" 6 stop lurkers.
The protoss deathball is another matter entirely, but there are other solutions to that problem.
Lurker + Infestor would also be sickly awesome to watch.
EDIT: The point above about terrain features such as cliffs is also spot-on. Another reason why Blizzard should just give us the Lurker instead of trying to disguise it as something else that is far shittier.
I just think comparing the swarm host to the lurker in itself is pointless; they're two completely different rolls in the zerg swarm. The lurker was made for zone control, and the swarm host was made for methodical pressure on territories. The only real similarity is that they attack while burrowed.
I guess one other way to put it is: The swarm host is defensively aggressive, it isn't mobile but it directly pressures positions. The lurker is aggressively defensive, it is mobile zone control.
Personally, I'd like to see the swarm host changed to the latter, something like the lurker but doesn't necessarily have to deal splash damage. I have a feeling Blizzard misunderstood zergs when we cried out for a siege unit. We don't need a unit that can pressure ground positions from a safe distance, we have brood lords for that. What we need is siege in the sense that it takes the map control we have and puts strength behind it.
On October 26 2011 12:25 TheDraken wrote: why can't the locusts: have less health spawn faster and hop like grasshoppers? i would think it would make them more effective (less tank fire) but marines can still clean them up. plus, (and this is a big plus) they could be used with the main zerg army since they won't be competing for surface area like broodlings do.
hopping locusts would feel pretty zerg to me.
you mean similar to the raptor? That would actually be pretty cool. The movement would be quite unique and micro intensive. If they make them look good while jumping it would be kick ass! I like the way the locusts are now (well, who knows that really) but this sounds like a cool idea!
meh, they'll fix the swarm host. it's not that hard. the premise is good. the current numbers just make it too weak compared to what is in the game already. we're also not really seeing the fully experimented version of it, as in, combined with other units or properly microed.
for example, i ask myself why the hell the swarm hosts stay burrowed if they can regen above ground and they are out of range of tanks anyway? just run the fuck away after you shoot swarm hosts. i can only imagine them needing to stay burrowed for ambushes like hold lurkers.
i wonder, what happens when you have 1 infestor + swarm hosts (same building structure) and you throw out infested terran eggs behind a tank line to draw fire and then have the swarm hosts burrow offensively lurker style to kill everything with mass locusts.
so basically, none of the demo really drives some kind of opinion into me. i'm constantly blown away by how much thought and how deep an opinion people have with what they saw at blizzcon. it really matters so little, and it's such a pessimistic state of mind from most people. then again, i'm surprised that i actually didn't see this coming.
I think I'd prefer a hive tech upgrade that ramps up the deploy rate over time while burrowed, kind of like void ray's charge. This means you would arrange them in place around an enemy base, defend them while they're charging up, eventually being able to produce a more pressing locus clutch with time. Maybe enough to require a turtle to come out. Also, leaving them burrowed at home means that they're ready to defend at full power.
Question, could you turn them off in the demo? Was it possible to have them waiting in hiding to start swarming when targets are near? I'm concerned about using them for defense, as it looks like you need to set a rally point and they just a-move there. Does that mean that to have some defending a hatch, you need to anticipate where a drop would land and just preemptively spawn stuff in that direction? Couldn't the drop just move ot another side of the base?
On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote: my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
I think it's an attempt to bring back something similar to the lurker in design and role, without adding to the aoe potential of the zerg, with both banelings and fungals--which is a concern they had with bringing the lurker back in the alpha.
Maybe also addressing the critique of modern zerg armies not being "swarmy" enough.
On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote: my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
Yes. It is one thing to play "Where's lurker" and "When can I snipe those SH safely?" Slings can surround a unit ball very quickly which means 8 marauders w/ medivacs could stim up and focus down the SH, but at the risk of having their exit cut off by 32 0/1 speedlings
To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them).
Now think of this scenario, a Terran is turtling in standard style with tanks, marines etc. behind a wall. IF you put 5 swarm hosts down in front of the wall (outside of siege range) you might not break the wall immediatly, but you will attack it constantly. Depending on their damage they might break it or they might force the Terran to invest APM to repair it and defend it. What they really cannot do, is charge down a smallish ramp into infestors/swarmhosts, that's a recipe for disaster just waiting to happen.
To be honest i am not sure if the unit will be able to fullfill the role i am theorycrafting here. Maybe 2 scvs on autorepair will be enough to keep a wall stable and secure for years. If so the unit definitly needs some changes, but a disposable unit to annoy and poke at a turtle out of safe range? that sounds exactly like what Zerg is currently missing on lair tech, mutas are nice but they are a heavy investment if you want decent numbers and they really don't do well in stand up fights.
Broodlords? They might fullfill a similar role in the endgame, but they are VERY expensive, and esp. against Terrans they can end up going horribly wrong.
On October 31 2011 03:17 Tula wrote: To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them).
Now think of this scenario, a Terran is turtling in standard style with tanks, marines etc. behind a wall. IF you put 5 swarm hosts down in front of the wall (outside of siege range) you might not break the wall immediatly, but you will attack it constantly. Depending on their damage they might break it or they might force the Terran to invest APM to repair it and defend it. What they really cannot do, is charge down a smallish ramp into infestors/swarmhosts, that's a recipe for disaster just waiting to happen.
To be honest i am not sure if the unit will be able to fullfill the role i am theorycrafting here. Maybe 2 scvs on autorepair will be enough to keep a wall stable and secure for years. If so the unit definitly needs some changes, but a disposable unit to annoy and poke at a turtle out of safe range? that sounds exactly like what Zerg is currently missing on lair tech, mutas are nice but they are a heavy investment if you want decent numbers and they really don't do well in stand up fights.
Broodlords? They might fullfill a similar role in the endgame, but they are VERY expensive, and esp. against Terrans they can end up going horribly wrong.
do you know the range of these things, from what i head in the video is you rally the locusts to the enemy, but can you say rally from half of the map if u have vision on the terran's front?
On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote: my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
I think it's an attempt to bring back something similar to the lurker in design and role, without adding to the aoe potential of the zerg, with both banelings and fungals--which is a concern they had with bringing the lurker back in the alpha.
Maybe also addressing the critique of modern zerg armies not being "swarmy" enough.
Why don't they just make it like a lurker that shoots a sunken colony tentacle instead of rising spikes? Aoe problem solved, we don't get something that can't siege against tanks
On October 31 2011 03:05 vojnik wrote: my question is why swarm hosts and not lurkers, is it just to have something different from BW or they really think swarm host is a better idea?
I think it's an attempt to bring back something similar to the lurker in design and role, without adding to the aoe potential of the zerg, with both banelings and fungals--which is a concern they had with bringing the lurker back in the alpha.
Maybe also addressing the critique of modern zerg armies not being "swarmy" enough.
Why don't they just make it like a lurker that shoots a sunken colony tentacle instead of rising spikes? Aoe problem solved, we don't get something that can't siege against tanks
Idk. At that point, I think you might as well just be trying to proxy long-range spine crawlers. Also, it would then kinda just be a limp dick zerg siege tank without splash.
On October 31 2011 03:17 Tula wrote: To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them). .
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions. They shouldn't just be given a unit to counter it. Unfortunately bliz has applied this logic with all the new units. Mass muta is a problem? Ok lets make tempests. It's just not good game design.
Also, the lurker would be fine. It would just make it so players can't a-move their army across the map and just forget about it. You would maybe even make a raven and actually have to pay attention to your army. It would be good for the game imo. And to people saying the splash would be too powerful, they made tanks work. I don't see why they couldn't make lurkers work as well.
On October 31 2011 03:17 Tula wrote: To be honest the lurker is a REALLY powerfull unit with the clumping tendencies of SC2.
I think many people are really not getting the idea behind the Swarm host, it's not supposed to be a lurker for board control. Instead I see it as a siege unit to annoy (and force to some extent) a turtling Terran or protoss to do something.
One of the most common complaints i see about Zerg is that they cannot break a turtle and a Terran can defend 2 bases without any problems no matter what the Zerg builds and in the current game i agree to some extent (with the exception of broodlords they can and will break a turtle if you get them). .
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions. They shouldn't just be given a unit to counter it. Unfortunately bliz has applied this logic with all the new units. Mass muta is a problem? Ok lets make tempests. It's just not good game design.
Also, the lurker would be fine. It would just make it so players can't a-move their army across the map and just forget about it. You would maybe even make a raven and actually have to pay attention to your army. It would be good for the game imo.
the problem is, and this is also blizzard's viewpoint, is that it's too difficult for a zerg that's way ahead of his opponent to just go in and kill him. usually zergs have to expand and tech up in order to kill them, and it just wastes time for everybody. happens to me all the time on ladder. i crush their 2 base push, then saturate my third, get a hive and 4 BLs. Otherwise i can try dropping their main or something, but it can be too risky.
I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but for the life of me I can't find out whether or not the Swarm Host is cloaked while burrowed. Does anyone know for a fact if it is/isn't? I thought with the introduction of the Swarm Host that they would remove the Broodlord or change it in someway. Having 6-8 Swarm Hosts and a few Broodlords floating overhead along with your main army nearby seems quite ridiculous, but who knows. Like previous posts have said, it'll be changed for sure.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video.
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
IMO, Blizzard does not want to reintroduce the lurker because they feel that it overlaps with the role of the baneling, which is a direct damage dealer with a high damage output. Argue all you want about differences and similarities, but that is the only reason that I could come up with as to why they don't just reintroduce the lurker (lurkers would just make banelings redundant).
As for overcoming defensive lines, yes, the swarn host SHOULD be able to do so. Swarm hosts do not have more range than a tank, you seem to forget that locusts only last 15 seconds. The unit does NOT have infinite range (that would be silly) and is limited by spawn time.
As for the viability, I feel like Blizzard should experiment with giving the SH 3 locusts instead of two. Locusts are strong, and once you begin to add in melee upgrades they should be able to sync up with a melee force and be even stronger. Reduce the spawn time down by two or three seconds, add in a third locust, and perhaps even a fourth as an upgrade later on and the unit feels fairly strong (probably going to have to compensate somewhere along the line with other stats).
BTW, does anyone know where the SH is built from? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the hydra (-_-), as they have the same basic art structure (SH much more cooler looking IMO, the hydra's head makes it look like a fucking dufus, while the SH has a fantastic body structure design), but Blizzard is not opposed to doing weird shit and the SH does come from infestation tech.
The difference between swarm hosts and lurkers was that it was often difficult and in-efficient to attack lurkers with zealots / marine medic bio ball (unless you had great micro or the lurkers were unsupported). In this case, what's stopping the player from moving out and getting rid of the swarm hosts? The difference in power is huge, but I can understand how Swarm Hosts could lock part of the map down by forcing constant attacks.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video.
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
IMO, Blizzard does not want to reintroduce the lurker because they feel that it overlaps with the role of the baneling, which is a direct damage dealer with a high damage output. Argue all you want about differences and similarities, but that is the only reason that I could come up with as to why they don't just reintroduce the lurker (lurkers would just make banelings redundant).
As for overcoming defensive lines, yes, the swarn host SHOULD be able to do so. Swarm hosts do not have more range than a tank, you seem to forget that locusts only last 15 seconds. The unit does NOT have infinite range (that would be silly) and is limited by spawn time.
As for the viability, I feel like Blizzard should experiment with giving the SH 3 locusts instead of two. Locusts are strong, and once you begin to add in melee upgrades they should be able to sync up with a melee force and be even stronger. Reduce the spawn time down by two or three seconds, add in a third locust, and perhaps even a fourth as an upgrade later on and the unit feels fairly strong (probably going to have to compensate somewhere along the line with other stats).
BTW, does anyone know where the SH is built from? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the hydra (-_-), as they have the same basic art structure (SH much more cooler looking IMO, the hydra's head makes it look like a fucking dufus, while the SH has a fantastic body structure design), but Blizzard is not opposed to doing weird shit and the SH does come from infestation tech.
I think it's just spawned from larva.
What I'm curious is how the Swarm Host would interact with the Shredder. I wonder if it just comes down to a numbers game of getting a critical mass of locusts out to damage the shredder, which would otherwise destroy them all in smaller numbers.
Playing with the numbers for that might be a headache for the balance guys.
On October 31 2011 03:53 Azhrei16 wrote: I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere in the thread, but for the life of me I can't find out whether or not the Swarm Host is cloaked while burrowed. Does anyone know for a fact if it is/isn't? I thought with the introduction of the Swarm Host that they would remove the Broodlord or change it in someway. Having 6-8 Swarm Hosts and a few Broodlords floating overhead along with your main army nearby seems quite ridiculous, but who knows. Like previous posts have said, it'll be changed for sure.
I don't know for a fact, but since every single burrowed unit that have ever existed in any starcraft game has been invisible when burrowed (including ultralisk, which still has its entire head visible by model but invisible by game-mechanics) I assume the swarm host will be invisible when burrowed and due to the design am 99.999999% sure I'm right.
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions.
If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him. Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...) So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea. I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling.
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions.
If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him. Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...) So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea. I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling.
If zerg crushes a terran attack, that means they aren't turtling. And anyways, why should zerg have the same options as terran? Zergs strengths should be map control and expanding all over the place. Terrans strengths should be playing defensive. SC2 is just getting more and more away from these core race attributes. It feels like they are just trying to homogenize all the races.
If zerg crushes a terran attack, that means they aren't turtling. And anyways, why should zerg have the same options as terran? Zergs strengths should be map control and expanding all over the place. Terrans strengths should be playing defensive. SC2 is just getting more and more away from these core race attributes. It feels like they are just trying to homogenize all the races.
Uhh.
SC2 has real strategic and mechanical problems that needed to be solved by units like the swarm host. Why should zerg have the same options as terran? In the same way, I could say why do hellions exist? Why should Terrans have the ability to do harassment and runbys and assert map control with fast units?
Because in a strategy game you are expected to employ strategies. The fact that Zerg cannot currently employ slow-push strategies is fucking stupid. The Swarm Host will be really good when covered by other units, and will have a nice solid place in roach/infestor unit comps imo. Instead of a soft contain with muta/ling (where you can never actually engage but force army movement or base races) you will be able to do a hard contain (where you have a position that makes your army cost effective and difficult to engage).
They aren't trying to homogenize the races, if that's what they wanted we wouldn't have the swarm lord we would have a baneling cannon. Besides, Terrans have the most amount of options of all the races -- They can turtle or be balls out aggressive, they can soft contain or hard contain, they can 1base or expand. No other race has so many options.
i agree with many posters that the locusts should have some sort of splash damage. this unit's utility will deteriorate as the marine wads get larger and larger.
however, with the addition of burrow move banes combined with fungal growths, this problem may be alleviated. the only issue there would be the timing and whether its possible to even have this kind of army before T or P just plows you down.
Great unit. I love that they didn't make the lurker, because detection is already so crucial (and always available), that the lurker would just get blindcountered in standard builds. The swarm host on the other side, is like an artillery unit, but still doesn't overlap with the broodlord, because you can kill the locusts unlike broodlord shots, but finally, zerg will have an option to pressure terrans and protoss, that threw away an army, and then don't have enough to defend against locusts without losses.
Also, swarm host sieges have a lot of potential, to put pressure on protoss armies, that rely on FF defense.
yeah sorry - I have to throw in my hat and agree with lurker > SH
Here's the thing. Blizzard seems to be too stubborn on creating brand new units, and trying too hard to be different from BW.
Point is, they shouldn't try so hard. All the signature units from BW exist in SC2 - it simply cannot be denied that the lurker is a fan favorite and really should just be brought in.
The SH can't guard any ramps. It takes too long(in it's current form) to really do anything versus an army that charges up.
We don't need to see what'll happen in a SH vs Shredder situation...an endless stalemate that doesn't improve the TvZ matchup at all. But a lurker vs a Shredder? We have a clear counter and winner, which is what it should be. Not a stalemate.
SH imo should just remain maybe in the single player campaign. For multiplayer it is strictly inferior to the lurker in every respect.
On October 31 2011 05:01 Big J wrote: Great unit. I love that they didn't make the lurker, because detection is already so crucial (and always available), that the lurker would just get blindcountered in standard builds. The swarm host on the other side, is like an artillery unit, but still doesn't overlap with the broodlord, because you can kill the locusts unlike broodlord shots, but finally, zerg will have an option to pressure terrans and protoss, that threw away an army, and then don't have enough to defend against locusts without losses.
Also, swarm host sieges have a lot of potential, to put pressure on protoss armies, that rely on FF defense.
What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
If zerg crushes a terran attack, that means they aren't turtling. And anyways, why should zerg have the same options as terran? Zergs strengths should be map control and expanding all over the place. Terrans strengths should be playing defensive. SC2 is just getting more and more away from these core race attributes. It feels like they are just trying to homogenize all the races.
Uhh.
SC2 has real strategic and mechanical problems that needed to be solved by units like the swarm host. Why should zerg have the same options as terran? In the same way, I could say why do hellions exist? Why should Terrans have the ability to do harassment and runbys and assert map control with fast units?
Because in a strategy game you are expected to employ strategies. The fact that Zerg cannot currently employ slow-push strategies is fucking stupid. The Swarm Host will be really good when covered by other units, and will have a nice solid place in roach/infestor unit comps imo. Instead of a soft contain with muta/ling (where you can never actually engage but force army movement or base races) you will be able to do a hard contain (where you have a position that makes your army cost effective and difficult to engage).
They aren't trying to homogenize the races, if that's what they wanted we wouldn't have the swarm lord we would have a baneling cannon. Besides, Terrans have the most amount of options of all the races -- They can turtle or be balls out aggressive, they can soft contain or hard contain, they can 1base or expand. No other race has so many options.
I agree, terrans shouldn't be able to be so aggressive. But the answer to terran having so many options isn't adding more options to the other races, it's reducing terrans options. When every race turns into a fucking swiss army knife, the races become less unique. Every race shouldn't have access to every strategy. Then what's the point of different races?
On October 31 2011 05:24 DEN1ED wrote: I agree, terrans shouldn't be able to be so aggressive. But the answer to terran having so many options isn't adding more options to the other races, it's reducing terrans options. When every race turns into a fucking swiss army knife, the races become less unique. Every race shouldn't have access to every strategy. Then what's the point of different races?
There is a difference between strategy and basic strategic ability. Protoss and terran both have the ability to outright kill their opponent if they gain a big advantage in the midgame. As an earlier post said, Terran can turtle or be balls out aggressive. Zerg can't turtle, and you are also saying that they shouldn't be able to be balls out aggressive either.
Zerg lacks ranged units and has a retardedly long tech time to get siege units. It shouldn't be okay that Terran can come back to win a game that they have lost when zerg cannot. If you had ever played zerg then you would probably know that one of the most frustrating things in this game is to lose a game after securing a huge advantage early on, only to have it all go down the drain because the terran player decides to all in you again just before your GS finishes.
On that note, I still really don't see the need to introduce a new unit that does the exact same thing as the broodlord. If Blizzard is really set on giving zerg earlier broodlords why not just make the Broodlord a lower tier unit that you can easily get out in the midgame?
On October 31 2011 05:01 Big J wrote: Great unit. I love that they didn't make the lurker, because detection is already so crucial (and always available), that the lurker would just get blindcountered in standard builds. The swarm host on the other side, is like an artillery unit, but still doesn't overlap with the broodlord, because you can kill the locusts unlike broodlord shots, but finally, zerg will have an option to pressure terrans and protoss, that threw away an army, and then don't have enough to defend against locusts without losses.
Also, swarm host sieges have a lot of potential, to put pressure on protoss armies, that rely on FF defense.
What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
You're comparing a unit that produces units with a unit that attacks and by attacking spawns units... It's like saying, that a broodlord is basically nothing but a hatchery, but a hatchery has more options to produce units... Also Broodlords have 9.5 range, which means they always need support, Swarm Hosts siege from further away and are faster (2.25, as fast as a normal zealot), so they can operate close to unsupported. Broodlords are air, swarm hosts are ground and attack burrowed. Broodlords cost a ton of gas, so they need to be played of huge economy, Swarm Hosts have nearly balanced costs right now (200/100), which means they can be played of few bases. Swarm Hosts role could be to contain, Broodlords role is to break a base/army, not to contain.
Of course everyone will prefer broodlords over swarm host as an army unit, but that's already the case for every zerg unit, as nothing from the zerg arsenal beats the broodlord in terms of raw power.
Considering how terran has much better static and positional-based units and buidlings than the other 2 races, I don't see it making a big impact on ZvT.
my 2 cents on the swarm host: I am not sure what blizzard was going with this unit. This poses no real threat to terran MMM, unlike the lurker which 2 or 3 could hold a ramp forever from MM. It doesn't appear to have any real defensive potential and I doubt it can control space with just 2 or 3 SH. I feel that for this unit to work it should be more like a BL where it spawns at a faster rate with low damage/low life units, because right now, I just think terran MM is just straight up better and can ignore the SH unless there is a ridiculous amount of them.
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions.
If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him. Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...) So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea. I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling.
If zerg crushes a terran attack, that means they aren't turtling. And anyways, why should zerg have the same options as terran? Zergs strengths should be map control and expanding all over the place. Terrans strengths should be playing defensive. SC2 is just getting more and more away from these core race attributes. It feels like they are just trying to homogenize all the races.
The same could be said for terran. That's why Browder says it's a complete race. But I do agree with you, in that I would like for the races to be more distinct.
The SH can't guard any ramps. It takes too long(in it's current form) to really do anything versus an army that charges up.
...
We don't need to see what'll happen in a SH vs Shredder situation...an endless stalemate that doesn't improve the TvZ matchup at all. But a lurker vs a Shredder? We have a clear counter and winner, which is what it should be. Not a stalemate.
Yeah, I agree that the SH isn't looking so good for defense now.
But I don't think it would be an endless stalemate with shredders. I also don't think a clear counter is necessarily better.
A couple shredders might be able to hold off a few swarm hosts, only taking a 10-20 or so damage each wave maybe. In that case, with some kind of support, they might be pretty good defense against them for awhile. However, if the Zerg can position a few more swarm hosts, they could break any number of shredders for free pretty quickly. At that point, swarm hosts would be a greater threat and shredders could be less relevant to the match in regards of defense against siege. Also, hive tech would be out shortly, with even more opportunities to break a turtle--some less cost effective than others. In this relationship, the zerg player would be working to get a threatening mass of swarm hosts into position, while the terran would be working to keep their numbers low and out of position.
If lurkers would be a clear answer to shredders, the relationship would be more static. The shredder might lose a lot of its utility earlier on, because the zerg could much sooner make and position the couple lurkers necessary to bust holes shredder defense. The unit might be relegated to simply defending against run-by's on bases with low defense. There might be less incentive to make them, knowing that they're effectiveness would decrease relatively quicker because of the threat of lurkers. I don't see that helping the match up at all, limiting the usefulness of a potentially interesting unit.
On October 31 2011 05:01 Big J wrote: Great unit. I love that they didn't make the lurker, because detection is already so crucial (and always available), that the lurker would just get blindcountered in standard builds. The swarm host on the other side, is like an artillery unit, but still doesn't overlap with the broodlord, because you can kill the locusts unlike broodlord shots, but finally, zerg will have an option to pressure terrans and protoss, that threw away an army, and then don't have enough to defend against locusts without losses.
Also, swarm host sieges have a lot of potential, to put pressure on protoss armies, that rely on FF defense.
What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
You're comparing a unit that produces units with a unit that attacks and by attacking spawns units... It's like saying, that a broodlord is basically nothing but a hatchery, but a hatchery has more options to produce units... Also Broodlords have 9.5 range, which means they always need support, Swarm Hosts siege from further away and are faster (2.25, as fast as a normal zealot), so they can operate close to unsupported. Broodlords are air, swarm hosts are ground and attack burrowed. Broodlords cost a ton of gas, so they need to be played of huge economy, Swarm Hosts have nearly balanced costs right now (200/100), which means they can be played of few bases. Swarm Hosts role could be to contain, Broodlords role is to break a base/army, not to contain.
Of course everyone will prefer broodlords over swarm host as an army unit, but that's already the case for every zerg unit, as nothing from the zerg arsenal beats the broodlord in terms of raw power.
I was at blizzcon, I actually tested these things. I can tell you that they perform almost exactly like broodlords.
For both units the primary means of dealing damage is through spawned units.
You are trying to argue that because the specifics of the unit are different that they have completely different roles and uses, which is not the case. Both units are siege units that attack through spawned units. The difference is that Broodlords are much better at this role than Swarm Hosts because Broodlords will always do damage, Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Also, Dustin Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm host is to break an enemy base, not just contain them.
I agree, terrans shouldn't be able to be so aggressive. But the answer to terran having so many options isn't adding more options to the other races, it's reducing terrans options. When every race turns into a fucking swiss army knife, the races become less unique. Every race shouldn't have access to every strategy. Then what's the point of different races?
The point of different races is having units that have different properties, costs and timings, as well as the obvious visual differences.
The point of different races should not be the inability to perform certain strategies ever, because that would make the game very stale and two players of the same race wouldn't really have any way to distinguish themselves from one another because there would only be one "correct" way to play each race.
Also, in order for terrans not to be aggressive you would basically have to rebalance the entire game starting from Barracks units, and that's obviously not happening.
I feel like you lack the ability to distinguish "Strategy" from "Tactics". Tactically speaking, the swarm host is very different from the siege tank. Strategically it fills a similar role.
On October 31 2011 06:09 Klystron wrote:
I was at blizzcon, I actually tested these things. I can tell you that they perform almost exactly like broodlords.
Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Well, I wasn't at blizzcon and I haven't used the unit, but at least I know that Locusts have way more HP and deal way more damage than broodlings as I did watch the live steam. Since broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting them as they attack, why would Locusts be?
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions.
If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him. Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...) So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea. I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling.
If zerg crushes a terran attack, that means they aren't turtling. And anyways, why should zerg have the same options as terran? Zergs strengths should be map control and expanding all over the place. Terrans strengths should be playing defensive. SC2 is just getting more and more away from these core race attributes. It feels like they are just trying to homogenize all the races.
The same could be said for terran. That's why Browder says it's a complete race. But I do agree with you, in that I would like for the races to be more distinct.
Exactly, there shouldn't be a "complete" race. Each race should have it's strengths and weaknesses. So instead of creating some sort of weakness in terran, they are just trying to make the other two races complete as well. It's sad to see, but o well.
The point of different races should not be the inability to perform certain strategies ever, because that would make the game very stale and two players of the same race wouldn't really have any way to distinguish themselves from one another because there would only be one "correct" way to play each race.
In BW there was a "correct" way to play every match-up and that led to players being able to distinguish themselves. If both players are doing the same thing, it comes down to who does it better. ZvZ was always mutaling and it came down to who had better micro/decision making. TvT was always mech and it came down to who had better macro and positioning.
On October 31 2011 05:01 Big J wrote: Great unit. I love that they didn't make the lurker, because detection is already so crucial (and always available), that the lurker would just get blindcountered in standard builds. The swarm host on the other side, is like an artillery unit, but still doesn't overlap with the broodlord, because you can kill the locusts unlike broodlord shots, but finally, zerg will have an option to pressure terrans and protoss, that threw away an army, and then don't have enough to defend against locusts without losses.
Also, swarm host sieges have a lot of potential, to put pressure on protoss armies, that rely on FF defense.
What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
You're comparing a unit that produces units with a unit that attacks and by attacking spawns units... It's like saying, that a broodlord is basically nothing but a hatchery, but a hatchery has more options to produce units... Also Broodlords have 9.5 range, which means they always need support, Swarm Hosts siege from further away and are faster (2.25, as fast as a normal zealot), so they can operate close to unsupported. Broodlords are air, swarm hosts are ground and attack burrowed. Broodlords cost a ton of gas, so they need to be played of huge economy, Swarm Hosts have nearly balanced costs right now (200/100), which means they can be played of few bases. Swarm Hosts role could be to contain, Broodlords role is to break a base/army, not to contain.
Of course everyone will prefer broodlords over swarm host as an army unit, but that's already the case for every zerg unit, as nothing from the zerg arsenal beats the broodlord in terms of raw power.
I was at blizzcon, I actually tested these things. I can tell you that they perform almost exactly like broodlords.
For both units the primary means of dealing damage is through spawned units.
You are trying to argue that because the specifics of the unit are different that they have completely different roles and uses, which is not the case. Both units are siege units that attack through spawned units. The difference is that Broodlords are much better at this role than Swarm Hosts because Broodlords will always do damage, Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Also, Dustin Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm host is to break an enemy base, not just contain them.
No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Although I'd rather want a lurker than this, I think people underestimate it's power. Imagine 10-15 swarm hosts outside your enemy base, with roach/hydra support. That's a very hard contain to break.
For example if you park your swarm hosts outside the natural on metalopolis you can set up a contain and safely take out his third/gold base.
Also we still don't know if this unit will have any upgrades(like most zerg units), which could make a huge difference.
using units as bullets is the new zerg thing, I am surprised there was no upgrade were ultras let loose to some broodlings if they died. So the swarm hosts fits into in quiet well. You don't complain that the banshee, the thor and the viking are using missiles do you ? ^^
And nothing stops Blizzard to give the swarmhost a t3 upgrade making the locusts stronger. (or general upgrades could have a strong effect on them.)
As for the same role stuff. Same role, different approach, different conters = good.
I think swarm host could be actually good at some ZvT against huge siege lines where dirrect attack would be suicide. When he sees the locusts, he knows he must move either way and that forces him either to attack or run back. This sounds like counter to static play which is in my opinion good.
Seems like it could be pretty useless. At the moment it is more of a nuisance than a threat. If there are more important things to worry about I would just ignore Swarm Host and deal with later it by sending detection and 2-3 units to kill it.
Well, I wasn't at blizzcon and I haven't used the unit, but at least I know that Locusts have way more HP and deal way more damage than broodlings as I did watch the live steam. Since broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting them as they attack, why would Locusts be?
Broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting at them because they spawn on their targets. Locusts aren't particularly fast and will die before they can reach their targets if there is enough stuff shooting back at them. Think zealots with no charge. This is something that is very noticeable when they go up against things like shredders backed up by siege tanks. Or when they go up against a stalker/colossi death ball. I tested them against both of these things and was underwhelmed by the results. Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage.
On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%.
Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage.
how is that any different from brood lords at all? If you roll up with 2 brood lords they are equally ineffective. 2 swarm hosts on the other hand will likely be effective in the way that 2 siege tanks are, at that point in the midgame. Not to mention the defensive capabilities which brood lords don't really have.
I mean, the exact numbers aren't relevant of course they will change. But the concept? I don't see how anyone could argue this unit isn't exactly what zerg needed (a siege unit before the 15 minute mark).
I actually don't see why i'm replying to you though. You aren't very open minded. XD
On October 31 2011 06:55 darkscream wrote: I mean, the exact numbers aren't relevant of course they will change. But the concept? I don't see how anyone could argue this unit isn't exactly what zerg needed (a siege unit before the 15 minute mark).
I agree that zerg needs a siege unit before the 15 minute mark, I think it is great that Blizzard recognizes this problem and is trying to fix it.
However, I don't agree with the way that Blizzard is implementing the fix. The Swarm Host is literally an earlier broodlord, which is great and all, but taking an existing unit, nerfing it, and putting it lower in the tech tree is the wrong way to go about it.
The swarm host does not address a lot of other problems that zerg has. This thing can't attack anything up or down a cliff. It uses melee units, which means that it requires already precious melee range real-estate. And it still doesn't address the issue that zerg completely lacks a ranged splash unit.
If the swarm host is exactly what zerg needs, then why not just nerf the broodlord and make it only require a spire?
Are you really trying to tell me that you can make a better judgement call concerning the usefulness of a new unit after watching a 5 minute video? I was there, I played the freaking game, and I don't know all the possible uses for this thing or exactly how it can be used. The one thing that I can tell you is that from my experience, is that it is the same exact concept as a broodlord, but at a lower tech tier.
On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%.
Thats a silly way to compare them. Particularly since broodlords themselves attack very slowly. Also you forgot to consider that in order to have those 3 broodlings, the broodlord would have had to attack 3 times. So going by your method of measuring damage, broodlords would do 24 dps. But your way of measuring is wrong to begin with, so the numbers do not matter.
On October 26 2011 08:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: The swarm host isn't redundant as it differentiates in one crucial way: it constantly produces units that have a set rally point. It constantly applies pressure regardless of range or anything else. It also has immense potential for innovation, say rallying your units all over the place toget vision. That said, the locusts appear too weak as they got ripped to shred fairly quickly by that weak tank line in the demo. They need to be way faster or be rendered useless by any halfway decent tank line.
there are 6 tanks, and it was able to kill bunkers despite being shell by tank fire and marines firing
It wouldn't make any sense for the swarm host to overcome and completely break the tank line in a wave
As you said, they shouldnt be able to overcome and break defensive lines, that would be way too OP from infinite range, but apparently blizzard decided that that should be their role otherwise i dont understand why they would show us that scenario in the demonstration video.
A unit that is either OP or UP, that is bad game design right there. Whats wrong with the lurker? There are no either OP or UP shenanigans. Lurkers can hold a position, their role is obvious and they can be good at their role without it being OP like in the swarm hosts roles case.
IMO, Blizzard does not want to reintroduce the lurker because they feel that it overlaps with the role of the baneling, which is a direct damage dealer with a high damage output. Argue all you want about differences and similarities, but that is the only reason that I could come up with as to why they don't just reintroduce the lurker (lurkers would just make banelings redundant).
As for overcoming defensive lines, yes, the swarn host SHOULD be able to do so. Swarm hosts do not have more range than a tank, you seem to forget that locusts only last 15 seconds. The unit does NOT have infinite range (that would be silly) and is limited by spawn time.
As for the viability, I feel like Blizzard should experiment with giving the SH 3 locusts instead of two. Locusts are strong, and once you begin to add in melee upgrades they should be able to sync up with a melee force and be even stronger. Reduce the spawn time down by two or three seconds, add in a third locust, and perhaps even a fourth as an upgrade later on and the unit feels fairly strong (probably going to have to compensate somewhere along the line with other stats).
BTW, does anyone know where the SH is built from? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess the hydra (-_-), as they have the same basic art structure (SH much more cooler looking IMO, the hydra's head makes it look like a fucking dufus, while the SH has a fantastic body structure design), but Blizzard is not opposed to doing weird shit and the SH does come from infestation tech.
I think it's just spawned from larva.
What I'm curious is how the Swarm Host would interact with the Shredder. I wonder if it just comes down to a numbers game of getting a critical mass of locusts out to damage the shredder, which would otherwise destroy them all in smaller numbers.
Playing with the numbers for that might be a headache for the balance guys.
It's spawned from larva? Hmm...that at least makes synergies a lot easier. I was having a headache theorycrafting (for fun ofc) unit comps involving the SH, but now ling/SH/viper should be easier than ever :D.
Stack dual upgrades in and I think I've got a wonderful composition to look forward to when HOTS comes out. Now all that is left is to manage balance numbers so that the SH is a constant threat.
I feel like the swarmhost needs to have a significantly smaller spawn time for the locusts, and have one more. It just won't pack enough oomph if the spawn time is too delayed.
SHs should definitely be an all purpose unit, if only b/c it feels like zerg is missing a siege unit which allows zerg players to open up more drone timings, etc. The SH's function as of right now seems to be about right. Just hoping Blizzard adds a stop spawn function (=/= easymode!)
Btw, really looking forward to ling/bling/viper. Muahahahaha.
@Azhrei16: Thanks for the quick response as well, sir!
I would love to see some application for the Swarm Host not in offense, but defense. Like for example, on Tal'Darim Altar when a Terran sieges tanks below the ramp and has marines spread around to combat mutalisks, burrowing some Swarm Host at the top of the ramp and sending waves of Locusts into the tanks/marines would be pretty neat, seeing as how sending a ball of zerglings/banelings isn't too effective most of the time. It's going to be exciting to see how the pro players spin the new units and use them in ways Blizzard never intended.
On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%.
Thats a silly way to compare them. Particularly since broodlords themselves attack very slowly. Also you forgot to consider that in order to have those 3 broodlings, the broodlord would have had to attack 3 times. So going by your method of measuring damage, broodlords would do 24 dps. But your way of measuring is wrong to begin with, so the numbers do not matter.
Um you are confusing DPS with damage or you apparently don't know how DPS works.
A broodlord that is consistently attacking will have about 3+ broodlings on the ground at any given time. While maintaining that broodling count the Broodlord does 8 dps from the raw AtoG attack. Not 8 damage per attack.
On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%.
Yeah, assuming that the broodlings don't die (which they do instantly if we are talking about insane dps units like marines or splash units like colossi/archons) and always have enough surface area (which is only true for small to medium broodlord numbers on open field without support zerglings) and do miss attacks when switching targets (due to their high attack speed). I checked the numbers before I wrote that 50% statement, but there is a difference between adding numbers and thinking about them... Don't get me wrong, Broodlings are a big factor in Broodlord play. But Broodlords don't work purely through minion production. Swarm Hosts do.
On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%.
Yeah, assuming that the broodlings don't die (which they do instantly if we are talking about insane dps units like marines or splash units like colossi/archons) and always have enough surface area (which is only true for small to medium broodlord numbers on open field without support zerglings) and do miss attacks when switching targets (due to their high attack speed). I checked the numbers before I wrote that 50% statement, but there is a difference between adding numbers and thinking about them... Don't get me wrong, Broodlings are a big factor in Broodlord play. But Broodlords don't work purely through minion production. Swarm Hosts do.
If you are arguing that the broodling DPS is not the major contribution to the DPS of the broodlord, then how is the Swarm Host going to do any better? Sure locusts are more durable than broodlings, but you also have to consider that they have to run to their target before they do any damage at all.
You are still trying to say that just because the specifics of the unit are different that they are not redundant. Its like trying to argue that if you gave terran an equivilent to Hydras, that they wouldn't fill the same roles as the marine just because their stats are different.
Broodlords and Swarm hosts are siege units. They fill this role in almost exactly the same way, by throwing free units at the enemy. Sure the specifics are a bit different, but the general principle is exactly the same.
Swarm hosts can only be useful if they are mineral-heavy. They'd otherwise be useless now that zerg needs even more gas than before for vipers. I'd estimate their cost to be around 200/50, maybe 225/75. Anything more gas intensive than that and they'll be useless.
Also, I think the locusts should spawm burrowed, have burrow move, and unburrow when they attack. Otherwise they will just prevent you from retreating if you ever engage badly and they spawn after initiating.
Broodlords are useful because the broodlings spawn on target, right in the middle of the deathball.
I'm just wondering where exactly these would fit in the zerg tech tree. Zerg is all about transitioning from one tech pattern to another. It's always been like this even back in the BW days. Upgrading to lair and hive exposes tech options which are better than the ones you had before. My primary concern with the swarm host is that it seems like it doesn't really fit anywhere on the tech tree. Early game zerg has roach, baneling, ling. Mid-game is supposed to be where this new unit shines, but I can't think of a reason to go swarm host over infestor. Is this not supposed to be a new staple unit but rather a situational one designed specifically for contains? Hive level I feel like it would be too weak to do anything.
It would be nice to see the Locusts get the creep speed bonus like all of the other units, just another way to encourage players to work on their creep spread.
On October 31 2011 06:17 Big J wrote: No. Broodlords don't attack through Broodlings. Over 50% of their dps is in direct damage.
Also Dusting Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm Host is somthing like "slow, methodical grind". That is not what broodlords do. They break an opponent. The very moment they are at his door he has to deal with them or die, unlike "eventually the terran has to come out and deal with them", what DB said about swarm hosts.
Wrong, Broodlords do 8 dps with their ground attack, a single broodling does 6.2 dps. Broodlords can easily have 3 broodlings out at any given time. This means that 18.6 dps comes from the broodlings, and 8 dps comes from the broodlord attack. This means that ~ 30% of broodlord dps comes from the AtoG attack, not 50%.
Yeah, assuming that the broodlings don't die (which they do instantly if we are talking about insane dps units like marines or splash units like colossi/archons) and always have enough surface area (which is only true for small to medium broodlord numbers on open field without support zerglings) and do miss attacks when switching targets (due to their high attack speed). I checked the numbers before I wrote that 50% statement, but there is a difference between adding numbers and thinking about them... Don't get me wrong, Broodlings are a big factor in Broodlord play. But Broodlords don't work purely through minion production. Swarm Hosts do.
If you are arguing that the broodling DPS is not the major contribution to the DPS of the broodlord, then how is the Swarm Host going to do any better? Sure locusts are more durable than broodlings, but you also have to consider that they have to run to their target before they do any damage at all.
You are still trying to say that just because the specifics of the unit are different that they are not redundant. Its like trying to argue that if you gave terran an equivilent to Hydras, that they wouldn't fill the same roles as the marine just because their stats are different.
Broodlords and Swarm hosts are siege units. They fill this role in almost exactly the same way, by throwing free units at the enemy. Sure the specifics are a bit different, but the general principle is exactly the same.
Because the question is not how is the Swarm Host better than the Broodlord, but what can I do with each unit. + Show Spoiler +
For example: Battlecruisers and banshees fill the same TvT mid-lategame role (to kill tanks). But they are both being played as long it is not purely air vs air (Then obviously the battlecruiser is better, but still worse than vikings and ravens)
Swarm hosts when optimally burrowed, do have something like 15+range. So unlike broodlords that attack tanks, they can be defended by zerglings that don't take tankfire. They don't require aircontrol, so you can siege an opponent with air superiority! They can be set up as traps, if you deactivate them, the opponent runs over, and then gets sandwiched. They can be combined with gasunits without working a whole game towards that composition. They might allow earlier rushes, which might change MUs completly.
When do Broodlords hit the map? 20mins. When do Infestors hit the map? 10mins. --> Swarm Hosts have 10full minutes to change zerg attack strategies completly.
A lot of complaints are centering on Locusts dying before they reach their target, but throw one or two Blinding Clouds as the locust wave approaches and suddenly they survive in plenty of time to get some attacks in -- and they're pretty sturdy and strong units, so a few seconds' attacking will put a dent into what your opponent has. High priority targets can also be Abducted into the locust wave where they can take a pretty hefty hit at no cost to the Zerg.
As for waiting out a wave then scanning, stimming, and killing them, you're assuming that the Zerg has zero backup waiting for you to come out and try and kill the Swarmhosts (fungal, zergling surround, etc. depending on situation), and you're ignoring that you can burrow, release your locusts, and immediately unburrow and retreat. You're already gone by the time the opponent has dealt with the locusts, and can return to do it again as soon as they move back to their base.
On October 31 2011 08:45 Mitosis wrote: A lot of complaints are centering on Locusts dying before they reach their target, but throw one or two Blinding Clouds as the locust wave approaches and suddenly they survive in plenty of time to get some attacks in -- and they're pretty sturdy and strong units, so a few seconds' attacking will put a dent into what your opponent has. High priority targets can also be Abducted into the locust wave where they can take a pretty hefty hit at no cost to the Zerg.
As for waiting out a wave then scanning, stimming, and killing them, you're assuming that the Zerg has zero backup waiting for you to come out and try and kill the Swarmhosts (fungal, zergling surround, etc. depending on situation), and you're ignoring that you can burrow, release your locusts, and immediately unburrow and retreat. You're already gone by the time the opponent has dealt with the locusts, and can return to do it again as soon as they move back to their base.
That's a good point, these would be good coupled with Blinding Clouds... Although I would question whether it would be worth the energy if you aren't sending in anyother units. It would be situational.
I'm still sceptical around this unit. And I hope it will get reworked for the final release. I still think Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit, like the lurker. Compared to, yet another unit just spawning small/weak melee units, that will clump up and become much weaker together with the rest of Zerg units.
I also think, at least in ZvT this unit will be even weaker. People have probably already mentioned this. But making a contain like this... So what if the Terran decides to place some shredders with tank support? I have to say, that contain suddenly isn't that effective.
I like the idea and blizzard trying to put out there, but as a player's perspective this unit will be thrown into trash as soon as heart of the swarm is released. honestly what kind of zerg player would spend that time and money to invest in something u know it wouldnt directly effect the engagement of your fight. If u are truly a zerg player, u know exactly what i am talking about and this unit is unacceptable.
I get Blizzard not trying to copy bw but sc2 doesn't have to be different just to be different and lately it seems like they are just trying too hard, I would love to have lurkers back and while we are at it also change the spine crawlers attack to some kind of area attack
On October 31 2011 08:45 Mitosis wrote: A lot of complaints are centering on Locusts dying before they reach their target, but throw one or two Blinding Clouds as the locust wave approaches and suddenly they survive in plenty of time to get some attacks in -- and they're pretty sturdy and strong units, so a few seconds' attacking will put a dent into what your opponent has. High priority targets can also be Abducted into the locust wave where they can take a pretty hefty hit at no cost to the Zerg.
As for waiting out a wave then scanning, stimming, and killing them, you're assuming that the Zerg has zero backup waiting for you to come out and try and kill the Swarmhosts (fungal, zergling surround, etc. depending on situation), and you're ignoring that you can burrow, release your locusts, and immediately unburrow and retreat. You're already gone by the time the opponent has dealt with the locusts, and can return to do it again as soon as they move back to their base.
That's a good point, these would be good coupled with Blinding Clouds... Although I would question whether it would be worth the energy if you aren't sending in anyother units. It would be situational.
it's a really bad point. why should you use them with vipers? there is no sense in doing this from a zerg players point. you'll want lings under that cloud, not some units that needs a setup time and take gas that could have gone into mutas. muta and viper is also a better combo...
Isn't this a bit like saying the marine is redundant because of the thor?
Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk).
I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker.
The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-).
On October 31 2011 09:59 HughJorgen wrote: Isn't this a bit like saying the marine is redundant because of the thor?
Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk).
I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker.
The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-).
marine - single target dps, fires really fast thor - aoe splash, fires really slow what are you comparing here?
and what do melee attackers do to turtling opponents? terrans will build a bunker and laugh at those locusts. a pf will laugh even more on its own. every choke or ramp will laugh because the locusts are melee. you still need broods if you want to win... they have to change this unit a lot to even become somehow viable.
But why should zerg be able to break a turtling terran? Terran is supposed to be the best defensive race. If the terran players wants to completely turtle on 2 bases, the zerg player should just respond by taking many expansions.
If you absolutely crush a massive Zerg/Toss push, you got 2 options. Extend your eco game (take a new expansion) or go in and kill him. Zerg can only expand and wait till Boodlords are available. But the longer a games goes on and the longer T has time to "recover", the higher the chances that T can pull off some kind of comeback. (eg.: lucky drops, massive all in resulting in a basetrade,...) So Blizzard says that Z should get a option to end the game without waiting for Broods, because expanding isnt always the smartest idea. I had enough matches myself where i had 14k more than my opponent, but couldnt finish him off due to his extreme turteling.
There are zergs out there who don't wait for broodlords against terran to just kill them (like stephano). for a turtling protoss yea it is kinda tough.
to me it seems like this unit would only be worth it if it would be really cheap. an unit that spawns uncontrollable zerglings and has a very long attack cooldown... mid-late game you can spawn and control insane amounts of zerglings that are super fast, and actually controllable to set up flanks etc. i don't remember how many locusts a swarm host spawns, but to attack a decent choke with tanks/cannons coloxen etc you'd need a lot of swarm hosts that have no actual combat value and take up 3 supply. to me the unit seems very very situational and too weak if not massed as hell.
Don't think most of you realise how powerful this will be. With just 2 of them, the opponent has to do something against them or they are screwed. Small number of gateway units move to clear the swarm hosts, fungaled by burrowed infestors. Few mm with a tank move to clear the swarm hosts, viper takes the tank.
It's not a powerful unit but it's a unit that needs to be dealt with, and that is gonna give the zerg more options on how and where the fight will be.
Even if you were to combine the new "dark swarm" together with the SH, the problem is - why wouldn't you just send zerglings in instead? lower cost, faster, etc.
The concept of the unit seems...different, but the difference is not a beneficial one, if that makes any sense. Both Terran and Protoss' cloaked units are dangerous precisely because they can outright end the game if you have no detection or your detection arrives too late. At the very least it makes your opponent afraid to move out, giving you map control.
The SH does not do this. Even when it's burrowed, there is no real urgency for you to immediately respond at all. Even when you know it's there...so what? Just run past it if you're making a serious push to his base...combine that with the fact that the locusts really aren't very dangerous. You kill one wave, and you won't be worrying about the next wave for quite some time.
In the case of the lurker, it is a very credible threat which demands a response. If you're in a position where you simply cannot deal with the lurker, it's as gaming changing as a DT or banshee.
Maybe if the SH spawned locusts which are air units? And attack ground and air? Not sure about the balance in this situation but it makes it instantly more much more dangerous. Siege tank/hellion can't do anything against the locusts, absolutely necessitating marines to at least force a stalemate or die to their own siege tank splash.
On October 31 2011 10:28 Steveling wrote: Don't think most of you realise how powerful this will be. With just 2 of them, the opponent has to do something against them or they are screwed. Small number of gateway units move to clear the swarm hosts, fungaled by burrowed infestors. Few mm with a tank move to clear the swarm hosts, viper takes the tank.
It's not a powerful unit but it's a unit that needs to be dealt with, and that is gonna give the zerg more options on how and where the fight will be.
2 Swarm hosts would spawn together spawn 4 melee units every 25 seconds that have 80HP and deal 15damage. I'm sorry that I fail to see how this will put pressure on a sieged Terran with shredders... Or a P with some collosus defending. The players won't even have to micro anything since the locust will just run into their death.
There might be a timing where this is strong. But, I don't think this window is that big, as well as, the efficiency of the SH will disappear extremely fast. It can't even be used to harass, since Mutas/dropped Infestors/dropped Banelings will be much better.
Once the SH have spawned the units, the player will just a-move into them and force the Zerg player to back out.
I cannot see how the SH in its current version would be much of a threat. Good, it's still in such an early stage, that we'll definitely see some changes made.
On October 31 2011 09:59 HughJorgen wrote: Isn't this a bit like saying the marine is redundant because of the thor?
Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk).
I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker.
The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-).
marine - single target dps, fires really fast thor - aoe splash, fires really slow what are you comparing here?
and what do melee attackers do to turtling opponents? terrans will build a bunker and laugh at those locusts. a pf will laugh even more on its own. every choke or ramp will laugh because the locusts are melee. you still need broods if you want to win... they have to change this unit a lot to even become somehow viable.
Um,
Broodlord - Flying, late game, super slow, creates low health low damage broodlings Swarm Host - Ground based, tier 2, burrows, creates high health high damage locusts
I was saying that the Swarm Host was not redundant because of the Broodlord, in the same way that marines are not redundant because of the Thor. Saying that the Thor has a slower rate of fire than the marine does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point.
Did you watch the video where the locusts were doing damage to the bunkers and siege tanks? The point is that they don't have to do much damage at all, because they're free. Even if they're killing like one unit every 15 seconds your opponent has to respond. Given that these are lair tech they won't be facing the level of turtling that broodlords have to face. That gives them an advantage. They might be melee attackers but depending on health and damage they'll do a much better job of pressuring than lings, banes or roach because it's cost effective.
Played with this unit at blizzcon and they are extremely strong. They will rape PFs, chokes and any other turtling antic you can think of. Just 10 swarm hosts and you will not be able to turtle guaranteed. These things do 20dmg fully upgraded at an insane attack speed and will regenerate as soon as the last batch dies.
On October 31 2011 09:59 HughJorgen wrote: Isn't this a bit like saying the marine is redundant because of the thor?
Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk).
I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker.
The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-).
marine - single target dps, fires really fast thor - aoe splash, fires really slow what are you comparing here?
and what do melee attackers do to turtling opponents? terrans will build a bunker and laugh at those locusts. a pf will laugh even more on its own. every choke or ramp will laugh because the locusts are melee. you still need broods if you want to win... they have to change this unit a lot to even become somehow viable.
Um,
Broodlord - Flying, late game, super slow, creates low health low damage broodlings Swarm Host - Ground based, tier 2, burrows, creates high health high damage locusts
I was saying that the Swarm Host was not redundant because of the Broodlord, in the same way that marines are not redundant because of the Thor. Saying that the Thor has a slower rate of fire than the marine does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point.
Did you watch the video where the locusts were doing damage to the bunkers and siege tanks? The point is that they don't have to do much damage at all, because they're free. Even if they're killing like one unit every 15 seconds your opponent has to respond. Given that these are lair tech they won't be facing the level of turtling that broodlords have to face. That gives them an advantage. They might be melee attackers but depending on health and damage they'll do a much better job of pressuring than lings, banes or roach because it's cost effective.
OK but it really all comes down to two things:
- how much HP those locusts really have - how much armor
It appears that they can take a siege volley and not go down...but also when you look, the bunker died from the siege tank splash, not so much from the dps from the locusts...
will probably need to see how these fare vs a photon cannon defense before we can judge.
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
On October 31 2011 09:59 HughJorgen wrote: Isn't this a bit like saying the marine is redundant because of the thor?
Lair tech is a pretty solid advantage. I can see Blizzard changing the cooldown or the number/strength of the locusts. (oh and renaming them from locusts since that doesn't make sense for things that walk).
I think it's a great idea that will have a massive impact on how Zerg plays. Being able to apply pressure to a turtling opponent is THE thing that Z are missing atm (until BLs at least, but that's too late). Plus you can't counter these things with vikings or snipe. If they leave their base to kill the swarm host, well, mission accomplished. Remember we'll have burrow move banelings to shaft opponents who don't have detection so we have even less need for the lurker.
The only thing I would like them to change is to move the tech to the hydra den. Zerg already have all the reasons in the world to build an infestation pit. Moving Swarm hosts to the Hydra den would provide a reason to build it. Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield. That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-).
marine - single target dps, fires really fast thor - aoe splash, fires really slow what are you comparing here?
and what do melee attackers do to turtling opponents? terrans will build a bunker and laugh at those locusts. a pf will laugh even more on its own. every choke or ramp will laugh because the locusts are melee. you still need broods if you want to win... they have to change this unit a lot to even become somehow viable.
Um,
Broodlord - Flying, late game, super slow, creates low health low damage broodlings Swarm Host - Ground based, tier 2, burrows, creates high health high damage locusts
I was saying that the Swarm Host was not redundant because of the Broodlord, in the same way that marines are not redundant because of the Thor. Saying that the Thor has a slower rate of fire than the marine does absolutely nothing to invalidate my point.
Did you watch the video where the locusts were doing damage to the bunkers and siege tanks? The point is that they don't have to do much damage at all, because they're free. Even if they're killing like one unit every 15 seconds your opponent has to respond. Given that these are lair tech they won't be facing the level of turtling that broodlords have to face. That gives them an advantage. They might be melee attackers but depending on health and damage they'll do a much better job of pressuring than lings, banes or roach because it's cost effective.
OK but it really all comes down to two things:
- how much HP those locusts really have - how much armor
It appears that they can take a siege volley and not go down...but also when you look, the bunker died from the siege tank splash, not so much from the dps from the locusts...
will probably need to see how these fare vs a photon cannon defense before we can judge.
I agree 100%, the HP and armor stats will be critical. Too low and it will achieve nothing, too high and it will be unstoppable. But they're the easiest changes to make during the beta as long as the idea is sound.
What I'm hearing a lot is 'just give us the lurker!' but I question how well that would work when Protoss have Collosi and Zerg don't have Dark Swarm. Blinding cloud is a terrible replacement for Dark Swarm with Lurkers because they can choose to move out of it. Are you then going to unburrow and chase them down?
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
I agree with this, but perhaps with the increased hydra speed and ultralisk burrow charge + viper there might be some compoistions that rely on locusts to act like zerglings. However I think as it stands now the unit will have sort of a similar problem that mutalisks have in ZvT. It will be strong mid game, and can definitely serve a purpose. However it will be harden to transition out of, as you will need at least 6 of them to do any damage, and throwing away 18 supply is never good.
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
I presume you mean an equivalent of the Tank and the colossus? If so explain to me how that is supposed to fit into the swarm image. I am not sure if Sotg was incorrect, but their numbers was 120hp on the locusts. Thats pretty beefy for a disposable unit to knock against a door.
And yes the siege tank splash killed the bunker, but that is a common problem for turtling Terrans. Do we unsiege our tanks to stop our own splash? but if we do that won't that friggin wave of banelings which is always just out of sight roll in and kill us?
Thats the point of the Swarm host as far as i can see it. It isn't supposed to replace the lurker (frankly the banelings have already done so) it's supposed to add some ability to attack a turtling opponent with disposable units (that don't cost larva or ressources). If you dislike that and wish for a siege unit like the other races have, then i am sorry but it doesn't look as if you will get your wish (and frankly i am glad, because if Zerg got THAT then Terrans would be straight up fucked as much as they have to rely on marines)
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
I presume you mean an equivalent of the Tank and the colossus? If so explain to me how that is supposed to fit into the swarm image. I am not sure if Sotg was incorrect, but their numbers was 120hp on the locusts. Thats pretty beefy for a disposable unit to knock against a door.
And yes the siege tank splash killed the bunker, but that is a common problem for turtling Terrans. Do we unsiege our tanks to stop our own splash? but if we do that won't that friggin wave of banelings which is always just out of sight roll in and kill us?
Thats the point of the Swarm host as far as i can see it. It isn't supposed to replace the lurker (frankly the banelings have already done so) it's supposed to add some ability to attack a turtling opponent with disposable units (that don't cost larva or ressources). If you dislike that and wish for a siege unit like the other races have, then i am sorry but it doesn't look as if you will get your wish (and frankly i am glad, because if Zerg got THAT then Terrans would be straight up fucked as much as they have to rely on marines)
I used Liquipedia in order to check up on the HP. According to that it is 80HP.
Personally, I cannot give less in regards how lore-wise some unit would fit into a race. I play the game, and I only care about gameplay. But following your logic, the “Lurker” from BW would also not be a Zerg unit. Then please, explain to me how the “Lurker” even found its ways into the Zerg army at that time? Have the lore really changed that much from BW to SC2?
So you really think this will be a threat to a turtling player? I really have to disagree on this. People will find new ways of turtling. So a T will not use the new units he would have at his disposal and just turtle with bunkers and tanks? In my first post, I wrote that a player turtling with shredders and tanks would completely shut a SH harass. I do not deny that a SH might have a window where the opponent is weak to this contain. But discussing specific scenarios with units that are not even in Beta is quite hard.
But as a Zerg player, I just have to say that I don’t need another unit that can spawn even more melee units. Once you have a decent army of zerglings/banelings and broodlords, there will be a big portion of your melee units that can’t attack. Since melee, they can only attack where there is available space. Another small unit, to just occupy more of the melee space is really not what I think I need. Of course it is just my opinion, and that alone won’t change anything and I just have to wait and see what Blizzard will throw at us in the end.
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
Hey, an extra 80hp doubles the health of a hydra! But fair enough.
I see what you're saying on the siege unit but I think there are major design issues preventing a Zerg AoE siege unit. Firstly, where do you set the range? Greater than a Collosus? Greater than a Siege tank? Either of those option would turn the whole game on it's head. So assuming you go for less range how does that help Zerg as a whole when they can still get contained and still can't break a siege line? I've already said why I don't think the lurker would work. We have the Brood lord which works because it's flying. At best I see a ground based siege unit making Zerg play very similarly to Terran and Toss (Z deathballs!). At worst it wouldn't be able to compete and would get ignored in favour of the BL. With blinding cloud it might still work I guess, but I think the Swarm host is more interesting.
Edit: I also think that the fact that the Swarm Host won't fit into the main Zerg army which is already full of melee units is massive part of it's appeal. Blizzard have said they want to make the balls of death smaller. I like the idea of pressuring somewhere with this and attacking somewhere else.
On October 31 2011 12:24 HughJorgen wrote: Edit: I also think that the fact that the Swarm Host won't fit into the main Zerg army which is already full of melee units is massive part of it's appeal. Blizzard have said they want to make the balls of death smaller. I like the idea of pressuring somewhere with this and attacking somewhere else.
Its also a massive problem. Zerg already has too many short range / melee units. Adding in more just means that you are going to have less stuff attacking, significantly reducing the efficiency of the zerg army.
Zerg really needs a unit with a long attack range, or at least something that is not going to take up valuable melee space.
The more and more that I think about it, I invariably come to the conclusion that the Lurker or something similar is a better option than the Swarm Host. However, knowing Blizzard, I get this disturbing feeling that the unit designs we have seen from Blizzcon are unlikely to change too much from now until beta, meaning that I can only hope and pray that the Swarm Host (while cool looking) is not crap.
Zergs have enough melee units. Give us a straight up long range bombardment unit. Hmmm....
However, if the SH is buffed and rips shit up, you won't see me complaining .
I just want to see SHs make up the backbone of a zerg force, with lings and the like to defend. This feels like the role the unit should be used in, IMO.
THe importance of this unit is giving zerg an ability to apply pressure and deal damage without taking direct damage.
If you look at Terran, siege tanks and planetary fortresses can deal devastating damage to enemy force, without any micro from the Terran, just a bit of mismicro and you take losses without inflicting any. With protoss, force fields, regenerating shields and harass with phoenixes and like cna accomplish the same. Even when you just consider trying to engage marines and then realizing you won't even kill one and then lose several lings in the process of running away. Banelings always take losses when killing due to their very nature and lings by their low hit point nature just constantly die without any chance to regenerate.
The swarm host seems like an opportunity to reduce bleed damage to your low hit point forces by flinging high hit point free units in front of them. It enables you to fight in less than maxed out engagements because the locusts can buy you time to pull units like lings and banelings back before the siege tanks and marines go town on them, and the colossi start frying. Two other benefits are that you can actually siege a protoss or terran who is behind you economically but you lack the hive tech units to break their wall, dealing more damage and getting further ahead at a point when the Terran or Protoss would just fucking kill you if the positions were reversed. The second is that it is another lair tech unit you can spend gas on when mutas or infestors become ineffective. You can only spend so much gas on more infestors when a protoss player goes high templar and archons and mutas aren't an option, having another option to pour gas into seems highly desirable as there's only so much you can get done with roaches.
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
Hey, an extra 80hp doubles the health of a hydra! But fair enough.
I see what you're saying on the siege unit but I think there are major design issues preventing a Zerg AoE siege unit. Firstly, where do you set the range? Greater than a Collosus? Greater than a Siege tank? Either of those option would turn the whole game on it's head. So assuming you go for less range how does that help Zerg as a whole when they can still get contained and still can't break a siege line? I've already said why I don't think the lurker would work. We have the Brood lord which works because it's flying. At best I see a ground based siege unit making Zerg play very similarly to Terran and Toss (Z deathballs!). At worst it wouldn't be able to compete and would get ignored in favour of the BL. With blinding cloud it might still work I guess, but I think the Swarm host is more interesting.
Edit: I also think that the fact that the Swarm Host won't fit into the main Zerg army which is already full of melee units is massive part of it's appeal. Blizzard have said they want to make the balls of death smaller. I like the idea of pressuring somewhere with this and attacking somewhere else.
How bout set the range to represent the lurkers range from BW, greater than basic ranged units(rine, hydra, goon) but not greater than static defense.
I think the reason why we are getting this host unit rather than the lurker is because browder wants terran bio to remain relavent even towards end game and the lurker would defenitly make that hard to accomplish but with the swarm host it would take many more of them(compared to lurkers) to combat bio.
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
Labels Swarm Host redundant with the Broodlord, proceeds to explain why it should fly like the BL and act like a Carrier.
On October 31 2011 13:15 [5th]Sybaris wrote: The more and more that I think about it, I invariably come to the conclusion that the Lurker or something similar is a better option than the Swarm Host. However, knowing Blizzard, I get this disturbing feeling that the unit designs we have seen from Blizzcon are unlikely to change too much from now until beta, meaning that I can only hope and pray that the Swarm Host (while cool looking) is not crap. Zergs have enough melee units. Give us a straight up long range bombardment unit. Hmmm....
However, if the SH is buffed and rips shit up, you won't see me complaining .
I just want to see SHs make up the backbone of a zerg force, with lings and the like to defend. This feels like the role the unit should be used in, IMO.
Zergling, Ultra, Broodlord
The SH does a SHIT LOAD of damage. If you guys don't want it us toss will gladly take it.
On October 31 2011 13:15 [5th]Sybaris wrote: The more and more that I think about it, I invariably come to the conclusion that the Lurker or something similar is a better option than the Swarm Host. However, knowing Blizzard, I get this disturbing feeling that the unit designs we have seen from Blizzcon are unlikely to change too much from now until beta, meaning that I can only hope and pray that the Swarm Host (while cool looking) is not crap. Zergs have enough melee units. Give us a straight up long range bombardment unit. Hmmm....
However, if the SH is buffed and rips shit up, you won't see me complaining .
I just want to see SHs make up the backbone of a zerg force, with lings and the like to defend. This feels like the role the unit should be used in, IMO.
Zergling, Ultra, Broodlord
The SH does a SHIT LOAD of damage. If you guys don't want it us toss will gladly take it.
Please take it... We'll gladly take your Collosus :D
They should lower the spawn hp/dmg and just make it spawn much faster. "swarm" makes you think tons of zerg coming at you quickly, not a few zerg coming at you between long periods of waiting.
It's supposed to be the burrowed unit with an attack that we all wanted. I think this is great, but there are some things about it that concern me just a little.
It seems to me like the Swarm host is too much like other Zerg units. People have mentioned the Brood Lord. I think to some extent, the Brood Lord is pretty close to this in concept, but I thought of another unit: The Infestor.
The Infestor can burrow and launch Infested Terrans. Infested Terrans are a timed life unit, like the Locusts the Swarm Host launches.
The player can choose where to launch the Infested Terran as well, giving more control over it. You have the ability to launch one over a cliff or a building, whereas the Swarm Host will only be useful in an open area, because the Locusts (I assume) have to walk around everything.
You also get more control because you can choose when to build them and how many. The energy cost allows you to store up many and launch them all at once, or you can choose to use just enough to take out a dropship or something.
The Infested Terrans have a ranged attack so they can hit air as well as other units at a distance.
In addition, the Infestor can move while burrowed.
And we can't forget, the Infestor can unburrow and use some other very strong spells as well.
All in all, I think the Infestor just has much more utility as well as being able to do everything the Swarm Host does. It's not a very effective use of Infestor energy, so we don't see it in play.
So it's not like the two units (as well as the Brood Lord) can't exist side by side, because they can be used for different things, but I think it would be even better to change the attack of the Swarm Host in some way to make it less like the other units. More diversity would be more fun and interesting, good from a spectator perspective, etc.
I would say they're having a hard time balancing this unit between "Free Units = Too Strong" and "Low Damage Output=Too Weak."
I think this concept of throwing free units at the opponent works better on the Hive Tech units (Brood Lords,) because they can get away with having some ridiculous damage output as well.
With such long recharge time and low damage output, I don't really get the "swarm" feel I should. Dustin Browder says "Slow, methodical grind" but that doesn't seem to be consistent with "swarm" to me.
Obviously they will be adjusting all the numbers for balance, but I think adjusting it in a more extreme way, not just basic numbers, would be good.
I'm wondering if Locusts move faster on creep. Broodlings don't, but they hover off the ground. These guys look like they walk, so I would guess they do move faster on creep. That would be very interesting, it would make them stronger at defending than attacking.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
Labels Swarm Host redundant with the Broodlord, proceeds to explain why it should fly like the BL and act like a Carrier.
I think OP said the locusts would fly like the carrier's interceptors, not the swarm host itself. The swarm host would need to burrow like a lurker to release the locusts. The locusts being able to fly doesn't exactly make it brood lord like. And with the carrier being removed in hots, giving it's characteristics to another unit isn't really duplicating the unit.
OP's idea is pretty ingenious to be honest. The swarming interceptors have always given me the zerg vibe and giving it to a burrowed unit creates such an interesting design and gameplay dynamic. Something like this would actually be an acceptable design difference in SC2 and would justify Blizzard's stubborn refusal to bring back the lurker. The current swarm host design reeks of blandness with barely any creative thought put into the design process.
OP, I think you should take your idea out of the spoiler tags so more people wouldn't miss it. You really need to give this idea more attention because it's actually a design decision that would make sense moving forward into hots.
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
Hey, an extra 80hp doubles the health of a hydra! But fair enough.
I see what you're saying on the siege unit but I think there are major design issues preventing a Zerg AoE siege unit. Firstly, where do you set the range? Greater than a Collosus? Greater than a Siege tank? Either of those option would turn the whole game on it's head. So assuming you go for less range how does that help Zerg as a whole when they can still get contained and still can't break a siege line? I've already said why I don't think the lurker would work. We have the Brood lord which works because it's flying. At best I see a ground based siege unit making Zerg play very similarly to Terran and Toss (Z deathballs!). At worst it wouldn't be able to compete and would get ignored in favour of the BL. With blinding cloud it might still work I guess, but I think the Swarm host is more interesting.
Edit: I also think that the fact that the Swarm Host won't fit into the main Zerg army which is already full of melee units is massive part of it's appeal. Blizzard have said they want to make the balls of death smaller. I like the idea of pressuring somewhere with this and attacking somewhere else.
How bout set the range to represent the lurkers range from BW, greater than basic ranged units(rine, hydra, goon) but not greater than static defense.
I think the reason why we are getting this host unit rather than the lurker is because browder wants terran bio to remain relavent even towards end game and the lurker would defenitly make that hard to accomplish but with the swarm host it would take many more of them(compared to lurkers) to combat bio.
As I mentioned, the lurker worked in BW because Zerg also had dark swarm. I just don't see how a straight up 6 range (the range of the original lurker) unit would help at all in SC2. It'd be outranged by collosus, tanks, thors (what's the range on the warhound? still 7?) and equalled by stalkers, immortals and bunkers. Plus air-to-ground is a lot scarier in SC2 and zerg have less access to anti air.
Lurkers in SC2 couldn't be used to break a contain and they couldn't be used to assault a turtling Toss or Terran, not without dark swarm. I honestly think that if Blizzard put the lurker into SC2 we'd all wind up very disappointed.
I'll be the first to agree that banelings are a poor substitute vs Terran Bio, but we have fungal now and hopefully burrow move banelings will be effective. Please tell me what gap the lurker would fill that isn't already filled?
On October 31 2011 13:15 [5th]Sybaris wrote: The more and more that I think about it, I invariably come to the conclusion that the Lurker or something similar is a better option than the Swarm Host. However, knowing Blizzard, I get this disturbing feeling that the unit designs we have seen from Blizzcon are unlikely to change too much from now until beta, meaning that I can only hope and pray that the Swarm Host (while cool looking) is not crap. Zergs have enough melee units. Give us a straight up long range bombardment unit. Hmmm....
However, if the SH is buffed and rips shit up, you won't see me complaining .
I just want to see SHs make up the backbone of a zerg force, with lings and the like to defend. This feels like the role the unit should be used in, IMO.
Zergling, Ultra, Broodlord
The SH does a SHIT LOAD of damage. If you guys don't want it us toss will gladly take it.
Certainly you cannot forget the baneling...nor the fact that zerglings, due to their very nature, take up much more melee space in a fight because you often have up to one hundred plus. They are not comparable to the zealot in any regard, as the zealot is much more cost efficient than the zergling and takes up far less space. Toss do not build DTs in any great quantity, and...hmmm...what other melee unit does Protoss have (no probe, bro)?
Zerglings (take up enough space due to quantity), ultras (too fat, bad pathing), BROODLINGs (more space to take up, often zerglings cannot get into engagement), banelings (a derivative, yes, but still crucial). This would up that again.
Just saying, if they get the stats right then I'm not complaining, all I'm looking at is the design of the unit and how it functions. It's far too early to worry about stats (thus the hope they get them down).
Hydras might even work well with Locusts providing a meatshield.
At the current stage a locust is a 80HP unit with a 15s up time. How would that be an effective meatshield?
"That'll put the tech more 'out of the way' but they could always compensate by making the unit stronger :-)"
Can we stop talking about the exact times and stats on this thing? We haven't even started beta! If there is a set of stats that will make this unit work well then it's a good idea, we just have to find those stats. Tweaking health/damage/rof is the EASY bit. I'm saying I love the concept, I love the ability that this will (could) give zerg. You can always say 'blah it's too weak' to which I respond 'make it stronger'.
I just found it funny you suggest them as meatshields that's why I took up the numbers. But yeah, Blizzard can adjust the stats.
But that doesn't change the fact, that I still disagree this is what the Zerg needs. I still believe Zerg needs an AoE projectile based siege unit. Having even more units to clump up a choke, is simply not what I think we need.
Hey, an extra 80hp doubles the health of a hydra! But fair enough.
I see what you're saying on the siege unit but I think there are major design issues preventing a Zerg AoE siege unit. Firstly, where do you set the range? Greater than a Collosus? Greater than a Siege tank? Either of those option would turn the whole game on it's head. So assuming you go for less range how does that help Zerg as a whole when they can still get contained and still can't break a siege line? I've already said why I don't think the lurker would work. We have the Brood lord which works because it's flying. At best I see a ground based siege unit making Zerg play very similarly to Terran and Toss (Z deathballs!). At worst it wouldn't be able to compete and would get ignored in favour of the BL. With blinding cloud it might still work I guess, but I think the Swarm host is more interesting.
Edit: I also think that the fact that the Swarm Host won't fit into the main Zerg army which is already full of melee units is massive part of it's appeal. Blizzard have said they want to make the balls of death smaller. I like the idea of pressuring somewhere with this and attacking somewhere else.
How bout set the range to represent the lurkers range from BW, greater than basic ranged units(rine, hydra, goon) but not greater than static defense.
I think the reason why we are getting this host unit rather than the lurker is because browder wants terran bio to remain relavent even towards end game and the lurker would defenitly make that hard to accomplish but with the swarm host it would take many more of them(compared to lurkers) to combat bio.
As I mentioned, the lurker worked in BW because Zerg also had dark swarm. I just don't see how a straight up 6 range (the range of the original lurker) unit would help at all in SC2. It'd be outranged by collosus, tanks, thors (what's the range on the warhound? still 7?) and equalled by stalkers, immortals and bunkers. Plus air-to-ground is a lot scarier in SC2 and zerg have less access to anti air.
Lurkers in SC2 couldn't be used to break a contain and they couldn't be used to assault a turtling Toss or Terran, not without dark swarm. I honestly think that if Blizzard put the lurker into SC2 we'd all wind up very disappointed.
I'll be the first to agree that banelings are a poor substitute vs Terran Bio, but we have fungal now and hopefully burrow move banelings will be effective. Please tell me what gap the lurker would fill that isn't already filled?
The lurker got out ranged by tanks, reavers and static defenses and the upgraded dragoon also matched its range, yet the lurker still was usefull. And about air units that is a hydralisk problem nothing to do with GtG units so I'm not sure why you bring that up, they would be a problem to lurkers just as much as they would be to swarm hosts.
And true dark swarm doesn't exist anymore, but I've heard some noobs claim lurker + fungal would be OP so who knows what these new sc2 spells abd units will do in combination with the lurker, also blinding cloud seems like a good support spell for lurkers.
I think the problem with your view of the lurker is that you expect it to break contains and engage siege lines or something, that's not what's its for, its for bio. Banes and infestors are good against bio as well but the lurker is not single use(suicide) nor energy based. So IMO its better than both.
Bottom line is that swarm host is not ranged splash dmg and its not really a cloacked attacker so its not a true replacement to the lurker.
One of main reasons behind removing Lurker was it's role being to similar to Baneling (!!!) and Roach (!!!). Now Blizzard introduced unit being basically copy-pasted ground broodlord (+some tweaks) as replace of Lurker...
I don't even care of Swarm Host replacing Lurker. Main problem is SH not being able to fill Lurkers role. Unit is less micro-friendly, is nearly useless if enemy has number advantage (Locusts killed before engaging enemy - 0 damage done), is neither able to hold ground nor able to work as harasser.
It's IMO pure example of good, unique unit being replaced by bad, copy-pasted unit. If Blizz want Zerg to look more swarm-like, they should give them 1 food generalist unit (like SC1 Hydra). SH is neither going to make Zerg more "swarmish", not fill Lurkers role. Zerg desperately need pre-hive ground-holding unit with siege capabilities, something every other race have. Zerg desperately need better AOE, ATM Zerg is limited to one spell and one 1-range suicide unit... (Terran in HotS has at least 5 different AoE weapons, Toss in HoTs has at least 4 different AoE weapons). Finally, Zerg desperately need some transition from hydra-tech, ATM everyone who go hydras is punished after 1-minute window (hello Colossi, hi Siege Tank ). Yes, Blinding Cloud and Speed Upgrade in HotS are going to help, but neither is going to turn Hydra into lategame unit as valuable as other options Zerg already have.
Summary: - Lurker is able to fill multiple critical roles in Zerg arsenal and fix many design problem with Zerg army (AoE, Stealth attacker, siege unit, ground-holder, transition for hydras etc...) - Swarm Host is not able to fill most of these roles (no AoE, no transition for hydras, extremely limited siege/ground holding capabilities, stealth don't affect locusts), and on top of that has it's unique problems (If enemy has number advantage, SHs do 0 damage, SH cannot attack down-cliffs...)
Basically perfectly designed, interesting and useful unit got replaced by badly designed (copy-pasted BL), boring (no micro-intense...) unit with limited usefulness.
To me the Swarm Host is the design team being too stubborn to just give us Lurkers.
The damage looks lackluster. Honestly, in that video the defence is so spread out it's silly. If those marines are closer to the front the damage done by the Zerg would be greatly diminished because everything would die before it got in range of the bunkers. As it is currently, it's probably too slow and too weak to be of tremendous use.
More importantly, though, as per my first point, it's just a silly replacement for a Lurker; which is a unit everyone wants and fills a role Zerg needs help with Unfortunately Mr. Browder seems too determined to replace core SC units with weaksauce ones, just to show everyone that "Hey guys, see!? We were right all along!"
More importantly, though, as per my first point, it's just a silly replacement for a Lurker; which is a unit everyone wants and fills a role Zerg needs help with Unfortunately Mr. Browder seems too determined to replace core SC units with weaksauce ones, just to show everyone that "Hey guys, see!? We were right all along!"
Same thing happen to Goliath. Unit was removed "because it didin't fit SC2", and now Goliath returned with new name and model, and some tweaks (warhound). "Hey, we were right, Goliath do not Fit terran in SC2!".
In Warhound case it is not as critical as in SH case. SH is simply badly designed, If SH could fill Lurkers role in even 50%, I would not care. But this unit has limitations in every single aspect, on top of multiple unique disadvantages Lurker didn't have... Blizz can change some things by buffing/nerfing unit, but SH will be always less micro-friendly, less interesting and less gamechangeing unit then Lurker. Basically everything SH is able to to, other Zerg units are able to do already. SH add NOTHING interesting/unique to zerg arsenal, it is basically mix of few already existing units (mostly BL, but there is also some relations Infestors and masslings), SH will not create any new strategy - it will do same things other Zerg units. It is total opposite of new Terran/Toss units adding multiple unique strategies to their factions arsenal.
I wasn't sure about all this, but with the new "simulator"-video posted in the other thread, it really does seem like this unit serves no unique purpose at all.
There's probably a better unit to have in each and every conceivable circumstance. Broodlords seem way better in lategame for taking down natural defenses, for army-fights I suppose you'd prefer to have some infestors....
On October 31 2011 14:59 HughJorgen wrote: As I mentioned, the lurker worked in BW because Zerg also had dark swarm. I just don't see how a straight up 6 range (the range of the original lurker) unit would help at all in SC2.
Lurkers in the SC2 alpha had an upgrade which gave them +3 range, for a total of 9, the same as the Colossus. That would be more than enough to see them used extensively late game.
On October 31 2011 14:59 HughJorgen wrote: Lurkers in SC2 couldn't be used to break a contain and they couldn't be used to assault a turtling Toss or Terran, not without dark swarm. I honestly think that if Blizzard put the lurker into SC2 we'd all wind up very disappointed.
I'll be the first to agree that banelings are a poor substitute vs Terran Bio, but we have fungal now and hopefully burrow move banelings will be effective. Please tell me what gap the lurker would fill that isn't already filled?
They would be extremely good against mid-game gateway pushes with mass forcefields which are very hard to hold in ZvP. It's also extremely common in mid-to-late game for expansion Hatcheries to be sniped by small groups of Marines and Marauders or Zealots; the Lurker would give Zerg players an effective space control unit to counter that type of harass.
The Lurker would also have an extreme effect in slowing or outright stopping the standard Marine/Tank pushes that Terran uses to deny a Zerg third. By burrowing Lurkers just outside of the Terran natural, and unburrowing/retreating and then reburrowing outside of the scan range, you would be able to significantly delay the push, and essentially force Terrans to make a Raven if they want to be able to hit a timing.
On October 31 2011 18:06 sleepingdog wrote: There's probably a better unit to have in each and every conceivable circumstance. Broodlords seem way better in lategame for taking down natural defenses, for army-fights I suppose you'd prefer to have some infestors....
I agree, that simulation video does make the swarm host seem redundant :/
I don't want to go into a lot of detail about the idea I had. It's just a way I thought in might make it better. Blizzard says they're open to suggestions, so since I did think of this, I guess I will post it on the bnet forums. I thought I'd share it here as well to see what everyone thought.
With the removal of the carrier, maybe it could be a little more carrier-like. The Locusts could be more locust-like, something like a melee Interceptor I guess.
They could fly out and stay until dying or the Swarm Host unburrows, and they could be replaces by an autospell like on the Carrier.
They should of course have a different flight pattern than interceptors, something less geometric, more swarm-like.
I guess there would be a maximum of 6, which is I think the number of holes on the back of the Swarm Host.
Whether or not you'd pay for them would depend. They could be free, and this would line up with the current Swarm Host (probably a good idea,) as well as make it less like the carrier. This is a lower tier unit, as well, and having them for free makes more sense. On the other hand, getting to dump some minerals here, where there is no larva cost, could be helpful. I'd probably make them stay free, though.
I think the idea of a T2 groundbased zerg carrier(with flying locust) is awesome! The damage don't have to be much either, as long as there is stuff in the air getting shot at. Making the units spawn often and be killed easily is also much more swarmy than the 20ish second poptime the swarmhost currently has. The locusts should slowly be eating away at any static defense of the opponent, thus the range should be something like that of a siegetank.
I don`t see how the SH can siege bases succesfully. The spawnrate is low and the spawned units are slow. There is no garuanted damage, because you can kite the units while killing the swarm host. Well it is right that zerg needs a unit to controll spaces, defend expansions and siege enemy bases. But the swarm host with the current design will not be able to do that (effectively).
examples:
-right now zergs cant harass a planetary fortress, unless they attack with a huge force, which leaves their bases vunerable for attacks. the swarm host wont change that, since the locust have to run into the range of the PF, will be aggroed by the PF and therefore try to attack it, which will fail.
-same goes for sieging a turteling terran or toss. The zergplayer brings the SH in position, but before the locusts can do any damage, they have to move towards the bunkers, cannons, defensive placed buildings(wall), tank-line and they will take damage before they even reach their target. Depending on how many units/cannons are defending they will do none or just minimal damage.
The fact the swarm host does no immediate damage (unlike the lurker), makes his succes (due to gamedesign) very questionable. Even in big fights the SH wont help much, since his spawnlings will just die in AOE damage.
To me this seems like a faster teched broodlord, except that it cant move like broodlords can. _IF_ the metagame stays the same and terran keeps the sort of marine tank (add in new unit), then this style wont work anymore. Broodlords made siegetanks unsiege, swarm of banelings and lings run in = dead marines.
Wanna run forward and snipe Swarm hosts ? Fungal, blings.
I would much rather have the zerg get lurkers again. Same range as siege tanks and maybe not burrowed but a prep time. Then again this doesn't feel zergy...
I think most of the units added in feel very unsatisfying. Replicator? Seriously ? "We cant think of a new unit type, so lets make one that can be all..."
I'll have to wait for beta and release to make my final call, but to me HotS feels a little weak. WoL seems more interesting.
Exactly, SH add nearly nothing to Zerg gameplay. Almost everything SH is able to do, other Zerg units can do with similar or even better cost effectiveness. On top of that entire unit concept is mix and copy-paste from already existing Zerg units. SH is the least unique, interesting and versatile new unit in entire HotS.
On top of that SH is addressing nearly NONE of zerg race design holes. It is not real siege unit, it is not unit able to engage enemy with number advantage, it has no real ground-holding capabilities, it has no AoE.
Basically everything SH added, zerg race already had in their arsenal in more interesting form (BL, Infestor etc.). It mean SH will not open area for new tactics/strategies, SH will not give us new combos, will not fix any of Zerg race issues, will not allow us to do anything new. Even if people say of "amazing Blinding Cloud - SH combo", other Zerg units will benefit this awesome spell far more then SH. I see no single reason of making SH in expansion, I can't see any real-game situation where SH is even slightly more useful then other Zerg options.
And why Mr. Browder hate Lurker so much, if he replaced it with something as boring and limited as SH?
Edit: What? The shredder thread had it, no wonder I couldn't find it. It seems to scream "MAKE ZERGLINGS INSTEAD", but the fact they keep spawning might mean lings don't make it redundant, we'll see.
The swarm host looks like it will be a staple map control unit for the zerg, which is going to be very important in hots since the shredder basically nullifies speedlings.
On October 31 2011 18:45 zul wrote: I don`t see how the SH can siege bases succesfully. The spawnrate is low and the spawned units are slow. There is no garuanted damage, because you can kite the units while killing the swarm host. Well it is right that zerg needs a unit to controll spaces, defend expansions and siege enemy bases. But the swarm host with the current design will not be able to do that (effectively).
examples:
-right now zergs cant harass a planetary fortress, unless they attack with a huge force, which leaves their bases vunerable for attacks. the swarm host wont change that, since the locust have to run into the range of the PF, will be aggroed by the PF and therefore try to attack it, which will fail.
-same goes for sieging a turteling terran or toss. The zergplayer brings the SH in position, but before the locusts can do any damage, they have to move towards the bunkers, cannons, defensive placed buildings(wall), tank-line and they will take damage before they even reach their target. Depending on how many units/cannons are defending they will do none or just minimal damage.
The fact the swarm host does no immediate damage (unlike the lurker), makes his succes (due to gamedesign) very questionable. Even in big fights the SH wont help much, since his spawnlings will just die in AOE damage.
At least try the unit in the HOTS custom map before commenting on it's usefulness. These things do huge damage to a planetary - like 5 will bring a planetary to half health assuming no repair/support; any kind of fortified, immobile position inevitably takes huge damage. Their dps/health is seriously impressive when you consider the cost.
Of course if you move in on 8 cannons with 1 swarm host it won't work; try 6 swarm hosts and that base will go down (eventually), much like siege tanks.
The lack of immediate damage does a good job of keeping different races different. In it's current form the swarm host just feels/looks cool; I'd be sad to see it go. Compared to lurkers in BW the two units fill totally different roles, and if the lurker replaced the swarm host it wouldn't really be a lurker anymore =(
On October 31 2011 19:21 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Can someone link the simulation here?
Edit: What? The shredder thread had it, no wonder I couldn't find it. It seems to scream "MAKE ZERGLINGS INSTEAD", but the fact they keep spawning might mean lings don't make it redundant, we'll see.
The simulation in the shredder thread looked super inaccurate and buggy - at any given time only about a third of the locusts that should have spawned were out (ie. it was closer to the damage of 3-4 swarm hosts).
IMHO swarm host is not a very good unit at controlling a zone. The real problem is that it spawn locusts very slowly, and locust can be killed. So, if you put 2 or 3 of them for example in a location, i think 8 marine + medvac can easily clean em up. The same thing applies for drops: SH is useless against drops...
Couldn't agree more with the OP. When you have two units that already create weaker disposable zerg units to barrage your enemy with it sounds dumb to create ANOTHER one that does the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I love the unit, I just think the Lurker would have gave more contrast here. Along with the fact that everyone wants it back, everyone but the terran/toss of course.
On October 31 2011 20:22 Competent wrote: Couldn't agree more with the OP. When you have two units that already create weaker disposable zerg units to barrage your enemy with it sounds dumb to create ANOTHER one that does the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I love the unit, I just think the Lurker would have gave more contrast here. Along with the fact that everyone wants it back, everyone but the terran/toss of course.
I'm a toss and I would rather a lurker (or even better, OP's carrier style locust idea) come back than have the swarm host. Those arguing to try out the swarm host before dismissing it completely miss the point. Numbers can always be adjusted yes, but the real question to ask would be if the unit design is actually exciting. For the player, I see little micro potential in the swarm host. For the spectator, the swarm host is extremely underwhelming to watch. It plays out like other zerg units and works too similarly to a brood lord. There is hardly any "feeling" of distinction and inspiration/horror when you see a swarm host. You don't get an "Oh shit, that's a swarm host!" feeling at all.
Numbers can always be adjusted yes, but the real question to ask would be if the unit design is actually exciting.
Exactly. Unit is boring, and feel like copy-paste mix of already existing units. Nothing new in terms of strategy, tactics or fun. Lurker is over 9000 times more exciting both to use and to deal with. It's simple: Interesting unit filling multiple holes in Zerg arsenal was replaced by boring units doing same things as already existing units on top of not being able to fill most of the holes.
On October 31 2011 20:22 Competent wrote: Couldn't agree more with the OP. When you have two units that already create weaker disposable zerg units to barrage your enemy with it sounds dumb to create ANOTHER one that does the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I love the unit, I just think the Lurker would have gave more contrast here. Along with the fact that everyone wants it back, everyone but the terran/toss of course.
I'm a toss and I would rather a lurker (or even better, OP's carrier style locust idea) come back than have the swarm host. Those arguing to try out the swarm host before dismissing it completely miss the point. Numbers can always be adjusted yes, but the real question to ask would be if the unit design is actually exciting. For the player, I see little micro potential in the swarm host. For the spectator, the swarm host is extremely underwhelming to watch. It plays out like other zerg units and works too similarly to a brood lord. There is hardly any "feeling" of distinction and inspiration/horror when you see a swarm host. You don't get an "Oh shit, that's a swarm host!" feeling at all.
I actually had to laugh at the image of Day9 wispering...."ohh....it's a swarm host....uhhhhh"
In all honesty: the swarm host just seems like an imbecile broodlord who never learned how to fly when he was a kid and decided to just burrow himself instead.
Looks like a walking, burrowing BL to me. It also feels a bit like the siege tank in that regard, being the long-ranged, near-worthless-unless-sieged unit. Not a good iteration of the lurker, because lurker traps can instantly butcher an entire MMM army, while for this just stim and run. Also I foresee it being quite pointless against toss on t3 tech. Besides, don't zerg have enough units that make other small units by now?
At some point I'm going to have to go through this whole thread and find all the posts by people who've actually used the unit. From what I've seen so far it's mostly just a bunch of poorly-informed theorycraft.
On October 31 2011 22:51 GentleDrill wrote: At some point I'm going to have to go through this whole thread and find all the posts by people who've actually used the unit. From what I've seen so far it's mostly just a bunch of poorly-informed theorycraft.
maybe you'll realize at some point, that nobody is discussing the "actual" usefulness but the concept - who knows, maybe this thing will be ridiculously OP and way better than the broodlord and infestor combined
doesn't change the fact that the mechanics are quite dull and seem uninspired; a unit that can burrow and spawns little bugs...yeah...sounds familiar...
On October 31 2011 22:51 GentleDrill wrote: At some point I'm going to have to go through this whole thread and find all the posts by people who've actually used the unit. From what I've seen so far it's mostly just a bunch of poorly-informed theorycraft.
maybe you'll realize at some point, that nobody is discussing the "actual" usefulness but the concept - who knows, maybe this thing will be ridiculously OP and way better than the broodlord and infestor combined
doesn't change the fact that the mechanics are quite dull and seem uninspired; a unit that can burrow and spawns little bugs...yeah...sounds familiar...
Exactly. We can have a game where every unit is a zergling, and each unit only differs from each other in stats. This game could be balanced to perfection and it still wouldn't be as interesting as it can potentially be with more diverse designs.
The best thing would be to give zerg the shredder but let it look like the swarm host. The locusts is now hits ground and air with a large aoe. Terrans have too much stuff already
The fact that it's redundant makes it better. Having several units capable of spawning smaller attack units is awesome. 1 brood, 1 infestor, 1 swarm host makes for a lot of attacking units. That sounds good in my head.
Ya while zerg is supposed to be a swarm race, putting lots of small, wriggling shit on the screen is most likely to be annoying. It's quite hard to see individual units in a large ball as it is.
I really dont see the point in a unit which nearly is the same cost as a siege tank, is at the same supply, at a later tech stage and is useless when unsieged (unlike the tank). You cant zone, cant actually siege (shredder) and cant break a siege (still screwed when your opponent ist highground/lowground abusing)
On October 31 2011 22:51 GentleDrill wrote: At some point I'm going to have to go through this whole thread and find all the posts by people who've actually used the unit. From what I've seen so far it's mostly just a bunch of poorly-informed theorycraft.
maybe you'll realize at some point, that nobody is discussing the "actual" usefulness but the concept - who knows, maybe this thing will be ridiculously OP and way better than the broodlord and infestor combined
doesn't change the fact that the mechanics are quite dull and seem uninspired; a unit that can burrow and spawns little bugs...yeah...sounds familiar...
I don't quite buy that. I guess there's a better case for having an opinion on the overall design rather than specific balance without having played it, but it's still an incomplete and less well-informed opinion than that of somebody who has actually tried it first hand. We do not all have degrees and 10 years' experience in game-design, so we cannot always perfectly extrapolate how something will play based on its stats.
Anyway, I guess I shouldn't have added that last sentence on my original post, so I apologise if it irked either of you; I'm less interested in expressing my own opinion than I am in simply sorting the potentially more useful information in this thread from the rest.
The only way I see this unit is useful is if the duration of the lucusts lifespan is large enough for a locust to walk a good distance (unlike the broods). These free units would make the zerg feel very swarmy. You would just send waves of units for free.
Unless the spawn rate of the minions is increased, the entire unit is close to useless. Zerg is a highly mobile and reactive race, the idea of attacking an area over and over doesn't seem very "zergy" to me at all.
On November 01 2011 00:22 meowmeow- wrote: Why are they so reluctant to just give us the lurker?
It would fit a very similar role, but with a more unique mechanic.
Because of 2 reasons: 1. (more important one) Developer pride 2. Burrowed banelings are similar in role to burrowed lurkers on hold
Yeah, god forbid they give zerg a unit that doesn't get cock blocked by a cliff.
The baneling is not the only reason the Lurker was removed. After swaping roach and hydra positions in the tech tree more times than anyone cares to count they ended up determining that the lurker wouldn't be available till Hive tech, where it also overlapped with Ultras and Broodlords as a siege unit.
It would be a better feel if the units Streamed instead of came in waves (say one unit every 1.5 - 3 seconds... adjust the units hp to let them survive long enough for their replacements to catch up and adjust their dps to be not too dangerous)... that way the number of units at the target would build up. (especially if they had a long timer.. which could be balanced by making them slow)
and they could make the units cliff crawlers
So something like every 2 seconds 60 hp unit 15 sec timer 1.8 speed 6 damage 1.5 sec cooldown (or just have them release 1 Broodling per second.. although that might make the Swarm Host too good)
They would not be good with zerglings/banelings since they would take up the space from the Zerglings+banelings with more dps. But they would be good when away from other units.
I think its a cool idea for a unit, but it just doesn't seem to work at all. They want a lurker, but not a lurker ? I just don't get it. Give us the lurker if you want a lurker.
On October 31 2011 22:51 GentleDrill wrote: At some point I'm going to have to go through this whole thread and find all the posts by people who've actually used the unit. From what I've seen so far it's mostly just a bunch of poorly-informed theorycraft.
maybe you'll realize at some point, that nobody is discussing the "actual" usefulness but the concept - who knows, maybe this thing will be ridiculously OP and way better than the broodlord and infestor combined
doesn't change the fact that the mechanics are quite dull and seem uninspired; a unit that can burrow and spawns little bugs...yeah...sounds familiar...
I don't quite buy that. I guess there's a better case for having an opinion on the overall design rather than specific balance without having played it, but it's still an incomplete and less well-informed opinion than that of somebody who has actually tried it first hand.
While this is true, I still think it's perfectly valid to discuss this IF (and only if) we limit the discussion to the things shown in the video. Example: a) fine: "swarm host in the way it was presented seems to be a redundant unit" b) not fine: "swarm host will be useless in HotS"
I mean, you could always kill every discussion if you refer to some point in the future where we may or may not know more....like it was stated by some people after release "colossus is not boring, but will be used for amazing micro-strategies later on; you will see, now stfu"; well, after more than a year the colossus is still boring, and doesn't seem to change; Therefore: yes it's possible that swarm host turns out to be a cool unit. Still I think it's ok to discuss and express what we feel about the unit from the pictures/videos shown to us.
On October 31 2011 22:51 GentleDrill wrote: At some point I'm going to have to go through this whole thread and find all the posts by people who've actually used the unit. From what I've seen so far it's mostly just a bunch of poorly-informed theorycraft.
While your at it count how many people want the lurker over this stupid thing.
Well I sifted through the whole thread and it was underwhelming: I found only one post I hadn't already seen when I skimmed through. And many of them seem to be based around extrapolation rather than detailing specific experiences from whatever games they managed to play. I might as well post them all though.
On October 25 2011 01:51 MorroW wrote: i think this unit seems to be really cool and good
1: siege unit the fact that they live so long period of time and dont need a target to shoot out thees guys (infact its "built" from the swarm host allows it to have the greatest "range" in the game. you can slowly break down defenses being on a very far distance so tanks cant kill you, plus its on the ground so vikings cant kill you too
2: meatshield i think this unit creates much potential for just saving time and making it harder to break down the zerg. maybe its very difficult to break down spine crawlers, hydras and infestor if these locusts creep sprinting in and soaking up damage much like the broodlord acts in this situation. but again since its a ground unit that burrows, costs less and is lower tier with a far longer range. maybe it will do the job better than the broodlords as far as "blocking" the opponents army goes
3: cost efficiency in the stalement late game scenario kinda goes back to my first point but i just wanna point out this in the late game abit. imagine the late game scenario where neither one of the players want or can attack. this is the only single unit that can slowly break down the enemy. you might say infestors infested terran can do the same but ghost raven and even siege tank range might be too big of a threat. ofcourse the borodlord cant poke at this defense as well from terran becaues of the vikings and ghosts. get enough amounts of locusts to actually reach the terran, (might only need 1 swarm host per siege tank in this scenario) then slowly damage him from a far distance without being in danger at all. this could change the basic concept of zvt lategame and might force terran to be the aggressor when you reach high enough numbers of these guys
ofcourse these are all just ideas and speculations but i think theres potential for this unit that no other unit has for zerg, even for any race. the "attack range" combined with spawning free units makes it really unique, on top of being tier 2 where a special unit like this "belongs" in tier 3 (like the broodlord)
the weakness of the unit is obvious tho. straight up engagements it might not be cost efficient to use, its slow movement and the constant need of being protected by other units as it seems to be very fragile alone
On October 25 2011 08:43 Disarm22 wrote: i played with the swarm host at blizzcon, it was fun but to be honest i was expecting something more original. it just didnt excite me too much and i found it kinda boring. its simply a burrowed broodlord of sorts. im more pleased with the other zerg and multiplayer changes
On October 25 2011 23:51 Klystron wrote: When I played around with them, Host Swarmers felt pretty solid, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that they felt about the same way that Broodlords feel, except that they come out a lot sooner.
I do agree that they are too close to a Broodlord in function and role. A t2-2.5 ranged aoe unit would have been better.
I really think that zerg needs something different at t2-2.5, but I think that there is still room for the host swarmer at t3.
When I think of locusts I think of a flying swarm of bugs that covers and consumes everything. I think that it would be better if the Host Swarmer was closer to a cross between a Brood Lord and a Carrier with flying, free locusts, that died after a short time.
On October 31 2011 05:21 Klystron wrote: What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
On October 31 2011 06:09 Klystron wrote:I was at blizzcon, I actually tested these things. I can tell you that they perform almost exactly like broodlords.
For both units the primary means of dealing damage is through spawned units.
You are trying to argue that because the specifics of the unit are different that they have completely different roles and uses, which is not the case. Both units are siege units that attack through spawned units. The difference is that Broodlords are much better at this role than Swarm Hosts because Broodlords will always do damage, Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Also, Dustin Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm host is to break an enemy base, not just contain them.
On October 31 2011 06:48 Klystron wrote: Broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting at them because they spawn on their targets. Locusts aren't particularly fast and will die before they can reach their targets if there is enough stuff shooting back at them. Think zealots with no charge. This is something that is very noticeable when they go up against things like shredders backed up by siege tanks. Or when they go up against a stalker/colossi death ball. I tested them against both of these things and was underwhelmed by the results. Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage.
On October 31 2011 07:08 Klystron wrote:I agree that zerg needs a siege unit before the 15 minute mark, I think it is great that Blizzard recognizes this problem and is trying to fix it.
However, I don't agree with the way that Blizzard is implementing the fix. The Swarm Host is literally an earlier broodlord, which is great and all, but taking an existing unit, nerfing it, and putting it lower in the tech tree is the wrong way to go about it.
The swarm host does not address a lot of other problems that zerg has. This thing can't attack anything up or down a cliff. It uses melee units, which means that it requires already precious melee range real-estate. And it still doesn't address the issue that zerg completely lacks a ranged splash unit.
If the swarm host is exactly what zerg needs, then why not just nerf the broodlord and make it only require a spire?
Are you really trying to tell me that you can make a better judgement call concerning the usefulness of a new unit after watching a 5 minute video? I was there, I played the freaking game, and I don't know all the possible uses for this thing or exactly how it can be used. The one thing that I can tell you is that from my experience, is that it is the same exact concept as a broodlord, but at a lower tech tier.
On October 31 2011 11:31 uberism wrote: Played with this unit at blizzcon and they are extremely strong. They will rape PFs, chokes and any other turtling antic you can think of. Just 10 swarm hosts and you will not be able to turtle guaranteed. These things do 20dmg fully upgraded at an insane attack speed and will regenerate as soon as the last batch dies.
On October 31 2011 20:07 Jehct wrote:At least try the unit in the HOTS custom map before commenting on it's usefulness. These things do huge damage to a planetary - like 5 will bring a planetary to half health assuming no repair/support; any kind of fortified, immobile position inevitably takes huge damage. Their dps/health is seriously impressive when you consider the cost.
Of course if you move in on 8 cannons with 1 swarm host it won't work; try 6 swarm hosts and that base will go down (eventually), much like siege tanks.
The lack of immediate damage does a good job of keeping different races different. In it's current form the swarm host just feels/looks cool; I'd be sad to see it go. Compared to lurkers in BW the two units fill totally different roles, and if the lurker replaced the swarm host it wouldn't really be a lurker anymore =(
[...]
The simulation in the shredder thread looked super inaccurate and buggy - at any given time only about a third of the locusts that should have spawned were out (ie. it was closer to the damage of 3-4 swarm hosts).
I was hoping more than 3 out of the 25,000+ who attended Blizzcon might have posted in this thread to offer some more meaty opinions, but oh well. Now I wish I could better remember what was said about it on SotG. Sorry this isn't more useful or interesting.
Zerg is limited to one spell and one 1-range suicide unit... (Terran in HotS has at least 5 different AoE weapons, Toss in HoTs has at least 4 different AoE weapons).
also if you count archon and helion, why don't you count ultra and muta splash? being a little too biased there. also fungal is like the best of all the aoe spells-definitely better than seeker, and most of the cases better than storm.
On November 01 2011 12:28 GentleDrill wrote: Well I sifted through the whole thread and it was underwhelming: I found only one post I hadn't already seen when I skimmed through. And many of them seem to be based around extrapolation rather than detailing specific experiences from whatever games they managed to play. I might as well post them all though.
On October 25 2011 01:51 MorroW wrote: i think this unit seems to be really cool and good
1: siege unit the fact that they live so long period of time and dont need a target to shoot out thees guys (infact its "built" from the swarm host allows it to have the greatest "range" in the game. you can slowly break down defenses being on a very far distance so tanks cant kill you, plus its on the ground so vikings cant kill you too
2: meatshield i think this unit creates much potential for just saving time and making it harder to break down the zerg. maybe its very difficult to break down spine crawlers, hydras and infestor if these locusts creep sprinting in and soaking up damage much like the broodlord acts in this situation. but again since its a ground unit that burrows, costs less and is lower tier with a far longer range. maybe it will do the job better than the broodlords as far as "blocking" the opponents army goes
3: cost efficiency in the stalement late game scenario kinda goes back to my first point but i just wanna point out this in the late game abit. imagine the late game scenario where neither one of the players want or can attack. this is the only single unit that can slowly break down the enemy. you might say infestors infested terran can do the same but ghost raven and even siege tank range might be too big of a threat. ofcourse the borodlord cant poke at this defense as well from terran becaues of the vikings and ghosts. get enough amounts of locusts to actually reach the terran, (might only need 1 swarm host per siege tank in this scenario) then slowly damage him from a far distance without being in danger at all. this could change the basic concept of zvt lategame and might force terran to be the aggressor when you reach high enough numbers of these guys
ofcourse these are all just ideas and speculations but i think theres potential for this unit that no other unit has for zerg, even for any race. the "attack range" combined with spawning free units makes it really unique, on top of being tier 2 where a special unit like this "belongs" in tier 3 (like the broodlord)
the weakness of the unit is obvious tho. straight up engagements it might not be cost efficient to use, its slow movement and the constant need of being protected by other units as it seems to be very fragile alone
On October 25 2011 08:43 Disarm22 wrote: i played with the swarm host at blizzcon, it was fun but to be honest i was expecting something more original. it just didnt excite me too much and i found it kinda boring. its simply a burrowed broodlord of sorts. im more pleased with the other zerg and multiplayer changes
On October 25 2011 23:51 Klystron wrote: When I played around with them, Host Swarmers felt pretty solid, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that they felt about the same way that Broodlords feel, except that they come out a lot sooner.
I do agree that they are too close to a Broodlord in function and role. A t2-2.5 ranged aoe unit would have been better.
I really think that zerg needs something different at t2-2.5, but I think that there is still room for the host swarmer at t3.
When I think of locusts I think of a flying swarm of bugs that covers and consumes everything. I think that it would be better if the Host Swarmer was closer to a cross between a Brood Lord and a Carrier with flying, free locusts, that died after a short time.
On October 31 2011 05:21 Klystron wrote: What do you mean that it doesn't overlap with the Broodlord? It does the exact same thing as the Broodlord. The difference that you point out is that the Broodlord is actually a lot better because it will always do damage, unlike the Swarm Host.
On October 31 2011 06:09 Klystron wrote:I was at blizzcon, I actually tested these things. I can tell you that they perform almost exactly like broodlords.
For both units the primary means of dealing damage is through spawned units.
You are trying to argue that because the specifics of the unit are different that they have completely different roles and uses, which is not the case. Both units are siege units that attack through spawned units. The difference is that Broodlords are much better at this role than Swarm Hosts because Broodlords will always do damage, Swarm Hosts won't do any damage if the locusts die before being able to attack.
Also, Dustin Browder said that the intended role of the Swarm host is to break an enemy base, not just contain them.
On October 31 2011 06:48 Klystron wrote: Broodlings aren't made irrelevant by things shooting at them because they spawn on their targets. Locusts aren't particularly fast and will die before they can reach their targets if there is enough stuff shooting back at them. Think zealots with no charge. This is something that is very noticeable when they go up against things like shredders backed up by siege tanks. Or when they go up against a stalker/colossi death ball. I tested them against both of these things and was underwhelmed by the results. Until you get like 8-10 of these things out the locusts just die before they can do any damage.
On October 31 2011 07:08 Klystron wrote:I agree that zerg needs a siege unit before the 15 minute mark, I think it is great that Blizzard recognizes this problem and is trying to fix it.
However, I don't agree with the way that Blizzard is implementing the fix. The Swarm Host is literally an earlier broodlord, which is great and all, but taking an existing unit, nerfing it, and putting it lower in the tech tree is the wrong way to go about it.
The swarm host does not address a lot of other problems that zerg has. This thing can't attack anything up or down a cliff. It uses melee units, which means that it requires already precious melee range real-estate. And it still doesn't address the issue that zerg completely lacks a ranged splash unit.
If the swarm host is exactly what zerg needs, then why not just nerf the broodlord and make it only require a spire?
Are you really trying to tell me that you can make a better judgement call concerning the usefulness of a new unit after watching a 5 minute video? I was there, I played the freaking game, and I don't know all the possible uses for this thing or exactly how it can be used. The one thing that I can tell you is that from my experience, is that it is the same exact concept as a broodlord, but at a lower tech tier.
On October 31 2011 11:31 uberism wrote: Played with this unit at blizzcon and they are extremely strong. They will rape PFs, chokes and any other turtling antic you can think of. Just 10 swarm hosts and you will not be able to turtle guaranteed. These things do 20dmg fully upgraded at an insane attack speed and will regenerate as soon as the last batch dies.
On October 31 2011 20:07 Jehct wrote:At least try the unit in the HOTS custom map before commenting on it's usefulness. These things do huge damage to a planetary - like 5 will bring a planetary to half health assuming no repair/support; any kind of fortified, immobile position inevitably takes huge damage. Their dps/health is seriously impressive when you consider the cost.
Of course if you move in on 8 cannons with 1 swarm host it won't work; try 6 swarm hosts and that base will go down (eventually), much like siege tanks.
The lack of immediate damage does a good job of keeping different races different. In it's current form the swarm host just feels/looks cool; I'd be sad to see it go. Compared to lurkers in BW the two units fill totally different roles, and if the lurker replaced the swarm host it wouldn't really be a lurker anymore =(
[...]
The simulation in the shredder thread looked super inaccurate and buggy - at any given time only about a third of the locusts that should have spawned were out (ie. it was closer to the damage of 3-4 swarm hosts).
I was hoping more than 3 out of the 25,000+ who attended Blizzcon might have posted in this thread to offer some more meaty opinions, but oh well. Now I wish I could better remember what was said about it on SotG. Sorry this isn't more useful or interesting.
On the contrary, it is extremely interesting. It's great to hear opinions from people who have actually played with the unit, as they have a far better insight into how the unit actually feels/plays.
I think people need to chill out a bit. Several who have actually used the unit have said that they think it should be useful, and people need to remember that there's still months of tweaking and balancing to go. The unit has great potential.
I just want to address the way this unit was presented in the video by Dustin Browder.
The bullets he presented are: 1. Zerg Artillery 2. Gain Map Control 3. Very Zerg
I don't think this unit could be further from the description in all honesty.
1. Zerg Artillery - It can be argued this unit is an "artillery" unit and the Locust is the ordnance (i suppose). The issue is there is no projectile or missile attack but spawned units. This unit could be a decent choice to break an enemy, we will see on release, but I don't see much of a role outside of that. The community has been asking for a unit to hold ground, so the enemy will have difficulty attacking into the Zerg. The role would be filled by a Lurker but I don't think we will ever see the unit reintroduced. The reason a Lurker is far superior is: -Lack of pathing problems with Lurker spikes vs Locusts -The ability to hold an area vs siege an area is lacking far more in SC2. Burrowed Banelings just don't cut it unless you get lucky. I would much rather be able to delay/hold off/contain the opponent and mass expand (much more "Zerg like") than force a conflict and have my food/resources tied into a "siege" unit that has very little value between the long spawn cycles. - AoE damage.
2. Gain Map Control - My problem is with the word "Gain". TL even defines map control as "The amount of vision and mobility a player has on the map." This new unit does nothing. It invites an opponent to come out of their base and contest control. You have to deal with this unit and the sooner the better. To gain map control you make it more difficult for the opponent to leave the base (eg, mutalisks force static defence and opposing armies to stay in base to defend). In my opinion, you need to already have map control and an army to protect the SH's or they become nearly worthless. Again, I would much rather contain, mass expand and delay any pushes and a Lurker does that.
3. Very Zerg - I don't see how this can be described as Zerg like at all. The majority of Zerg units are quick, cheap and easy to replenish. It doesn't feel very Zergish to send in waves of slow zealots every 15 seconds in the hope they either splash themself to death or something survives long enough to actually make it to the front and attack.
Lurkers (or a unit like a Lurker, a burrowed attacking unit with defensive capabilities) is much closer to addressing the gaps in Zerg play the Swarm Host is apparently trying to fill. The Lurker would be a much more interesting unit, it would have much more application, it would encourage a variety of play (drop, defence, contain), etc. You can't use small numbers to effectively do anything, positioning won't matter (except to possibly minimize splash), defensive capability is non-existent. The Swarm Host seems completely uninspired, a "set it and forget it" unit which is terrible!