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On November 02 2011 03:36 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:19 Otolia wrote: If ESWC pays out, will ClouD publicly apologize and set the record straight ? Or will he continues to cry his eyes out because he is too uneducated to even understand the basics of private informations ?
Why should he apologize ? Because he didn't get his money in time and stated that to the public ? What the FUCK ? The tournament ended 7 days ago. The staff had others things to do. If he wasn't paid after a month he may have complained. Now he is just a cry-baby.
I never like people who tried to manipulated the opinion of the mass.
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On November 02 2011 03:38 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:36 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 02 2011 03:19 Otolia wrote: If ESWC pays out, will ClouD publicly apologize and set the record straight ? Or will he continues to cry his eyes out because he is too uneducated to even understand the basics of private informations ?
Why should he apologize ? Because he didn't get his money in time and stated that to the public ? What the FUCK ? The tournament ended 7 days ago. The staff had others things to do. If he wasn't paid after a month he may have complained. Now he is just a cry-baby. I never like people who tried to manipulated the opinion of the mass. Sorry I don't understand your point, I just stated I didn't get contacted by anybody about prizes after few days and they have a bad reputation of not paying prizes so it makes me worried. Both are true. Why should I need to apologize?
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On November 02 2011 03:20 Larryx wrote:
I dont see my post being banned when naniwa is called somone piece of... 3x times in this thread. Unless TL is favoring the players that is.
Except that Naniwa was calling the guy a PoS out of anger for scamming him, and not his quality of play...
Your inability to recognize the difference is why it should be considered bannable.
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Considering the history of the brand ESWC it's completely reasonable to wonder. I'm 100% with Cloud when he makes statements like this. I met him, I talked to him, he doesn't get angry like that for no reason, nor does he lack professionalism. It's a known fact for anybody who ever had close contact with tournaments and/or players that prize money is paid so late, it's not reliable in your financial planning at all.
The main reason it's not paid is probably the fact that tournaments don't have set dates for their sponsorship money coming in (which they should). The capital for most e-sports companies is thin to say the least, even the bigger ones can't handle paying out five figures and more without any liquidity issues coming up. They rely on sponsors paying. They've got to still be considered start ups for the most part, too. It's hard to pay when you don't have solid cash flow yourself. I highly doubt that ESL etc. don't pay because they're trying to scam ppl out of their money. That's not Kotick running these companies. ESL for example pays late (and states so before tournaments in the rules btw) for tax and credit reasons. With more money lying around it would probably be handled within a week.
All that is just some explanation, by no means an excuse. Maybe e-sports is growing too fast to ensure that the rising prizes are paid on time because the companies and sponsorship deals tend to grow more organically and skyrocket less. It will have to improve. That's just a fact.
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Wow this is bad for e-sports what if a Korean places 1st or wins some money and there is already a language barrier and now your going to give them a hard time to receive the money? I hope the tournament smartens up especially the bigger name ones. I also hope team liquid community can inform people of which tournaments have and are still not paying out prizes!!
I'd hate it if I ever got good and spent like a couple hundred to go to a tournament only to not get paid out when I win -_- would totally make the trip not worth it as your going their to win money not to play games...(pun intended) lol
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On November 02 2011 03:44 kevinthemighty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:20 Larryx wrote:
I dont see my post being banned when naniwa is called somone piece of... 3x times in this thread. Unless TL is favoring the players that is. Except that Naniwa was calling the guy a PoS out of anger for scamming him, and not his quality of play... Your inability to recognize the difference is why it should be considered bannable.
And it flat out says in the 10 commandments of the TL forums that professional players and long time members are given more leeway. If Naniwa and I made the exact same BM post, it is well within the TL guidelines to ban me and leave him alone.
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On November 02 2011 03:38 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:36 BlitzerSC wrote:On November 02 2011 03:19 Otolia wrote: If ESWC pays out, will ClouD publicly apologize and set the record straight ? Or will he continues to cry his eyes out because he is too uneducated to even understand the basics of private informations ?
Why should he apologize ? Because he didn't get his money in time and stated that to the public ? What the FUCK ? The tournament ended 7 days ago. The staff had others things to do. If he wasn't paid after a month he may have complained. Now he is just a cry-baby. I never like people who tried to manipulated the opinion of the mass.
Good job taking other peoples interpretations of another persons statement and calling him a cry baby for how people are interpreting him. He was voicing his concern over not being contacted. It's not like he was calling them a terrible organization for not giving him his money the second he won.
I never like people who twist others words.
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if there is an easily accessible list of tournaments that have outstanding prizing issues, i will consult before watching a tournament and purchasing an hd pass. but it would have to not be work on my part to research what it is.
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On November 02 2011 03:50 Timerly wrote: Considering the history of the brand ESWC it's completely reasonable to wonder. I'm 100% with Cloud when he makes statements like this. I met him, I talked to him, he doesn't get angry like that for no reason, nor does he lack professionalism. It's a known fact for anybody who ever had close contact with tournaments and/or players that prize money is paid so late, it's not reliable in your financial planning at all.
How is it reasonable to publicly imply that a tournament might not pay even though it ended a week ago, especially as a player and not just some random user?
You shouldn't forget that prize money is only a part of what the tournament does for a player. It's also publicity and sponsor exposure, without which no team would hire them. That's the reason why most of the teams keep quiet about this topic because in essence, the tournaments that do not pay out at all are not the majority. And even when the prize money gets paid late, the players still need the tournaments with all the exposure they get from them more than the prize money.
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the best way to solve these kinds of problems outside of E-sports is to make a workers UNION.. like something along the lines of a players association with a governing body which can protect players when they are being taken advantage of by tournament managers. Its a rather simple concept, if this is actually a big issue in the scene than that it is probably the best course of action. And logistically speaking its definetly possible, all that would have to happen is a small portion maybe 5% or less of prize money from the players in the union would go to funding.
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On November 01 2011 03:32 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:17 polarfluKe wrote:On November 01 2011 01:53 DarKFoRcE wrote: I updated my list with approximate amounts of money owed, might be slighty off in some instances:
Dailymotion Cup 200$ or € EPS Season 17 ~450€ EPS Summer 2011 ~300€ Dreamhack Winter 2010 BYOC Qualifier (3000 SEK ~ 320€) Epiccup invite turnier 50$ Virus invite turnier (100 or 150)$ IPL Season 2 400$ WCG National Finals (Hardware prize) GeForce Pro Turnier 1575$ + hardware TheGreat Showmatch hardware Zotac Monthly Final September 500€ 16.10.2011 Polarfluke OPtoberfest ~340$ 19.10.2011 ESL Monthly Final September 500€
I did PM you regarding this, but I feel you have not played your part in the discussion and I have the right to say what I must say now. How exactly do you expect us to pay you? Did you bother to send me your payment details before I had to PM you earlier for them? Did you even read the tournament rules that are in place? Here is an excerpt from our Rules, updated on 13/10/2011: Payments (Added 13-10-2011) South African players must submit their banking details from their registered e-mail address Non South African players must submit their PayPal details from their registered e-mail address All prizes are paid in ZAR and thus the estimated USD value may be different to that stated on the tournament page due to currency fluctuations Players must submit their payment details within 2(two) weeks of the end of a tournament to receive their payment else the prize will be forfeit Once the 2(two) week period is over, all payments will be processed I did tell you after reading your OP that I would still make your payment even though you had failed to adhere to the rules of the tournament. This is absolutely ridiculous that you are including tournaments from 2 weeks ago; while I do support talking up about tournaments and hosts that have an extremely long wait time, you are causing damage to guys like me who do actually pay up. I work my ass off to host monthly tournaments with good prize pools. I spend hours upon hours in meetings, trying to get more money into my tournaments and with one or two posts you are able to wrongfully ruin a reputation my organization has earned. PolarfluKe has been running since May 2010 and we have run 18 tournaments for Starcraft II. Every tournament is paid up in full except for the tournament we hosted 2 weeks ago(15-16 October). If you had bothered to read the rules regarding payments (which I was forced to add because it takes players too long to send their payment details), I explicitly state how the payment structure works now. Do not lay blame on myself or my organization for payment not received when you can not adhere to simple rules. Did you bother to send your payment details to anyone in that list? Quoting this because too many people are simply jumping on the bandwagon without having both sides of the story.
I don't get what's the problem exactly, Darkforce even said that some of the tournaments on his list are just a couple of weeks back and that there's no problem with that.
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imo event organizers should pay immediately after the tournament. If you are organizing a tournament, the prizes should be prepared in advance and ready to pay out as soon as the final game has been played. As we get more and more events, hopefully the bad organizers get over-run by those who know what they are doing.
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Shouldnt there be some sort of agreement in place about payments of prize money before the tournament even starts? I don't understand that some organization are just like 'you'll get paid, when you get paid.' It's hard for me to grasp how it's possible that this is even happening. Aren't the tournaments legally obligated to pay that prize money? Even if it's not specified as to when and how, doesn't that make them vulnerable to legal action?
Yes, I am saying that if an tournament doesnt pay you within reasonable time, players should sue for their money. What's considered 'reasonable?' Well, I'm sure withholding funds for over a month without giving a date of when it will be distributed would be unreasonable.
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And I have always wondered how tournaments manage to have these insane high prizepools...
..just dont pay it out, yo.
What a genius business idea! Also, broke players can't hire lawyers. And if players complain, some people will eventually appear on forums who will claim that players are whiners who should be more professional or threaten them with consequences should they make public statements.
Well, contemporary history proves that you can get away with the worst if your marketing is good enough and you manage to somehow circumvent jurisdiction. Just look at apple and the conditions for the people who actually manufacture their products.
So I guess it is just a reasonable business approach to not pay out. Dont blame the organizers, they're just acting professional.
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I doubt it has anything to do with attitude or laziness or poor management. I'm fairly certain in a lot of these cases the money simply isn't there.
A lot of people are high on the growth of E-sports right now, but there still isn't a very solid revenue structure. Premium passes only work for the biggest tournaments and then only a handful people even buy it. It's a drop in the bucket really. Sponsors and advertisement have to provide most of the money, but only the biggest tournaments are pulling 100K+ viewers and even that is not super interesting from an advertisement perspective. To put it in perspective, a program on dutch TV that pulls around 100K viewers is likely to get cancelled in the foreseeable future. And that is for a country of 16 million. So 100K worldwide is really not very much at all.
So tournaments that don't pull anywhere near that and are more in the 10K-ish range of viewers, yet still promise huge pricemoney are simply not viable from an economic perspective. It seems that right now there are a lot of people trying to get into E-sports, in the hope of holding out somehow until in blows up big and then cash in. Kind of a bubble, not entirely unlike the IT-bubble of the late 90's (where a lot of online companies had no actual way to make money). Wouldn't be surprised if most of the the tournaments that are mentioned here will disappear somewhere in the next year
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Occupy SC2?
this is a real shame, tournaments that can't pay out need to be black listed!
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On November 02 2011 03:52 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:44 kevinthemighty wrote:On November 02 2011 03:20 Larryx wrote:
I dont see my post being banned when naniwa is called somone piece of... 3x times in this thread. Unless TL is favoring the players that is. Except that Naniwa was calling the guy a PoS out of anger for scamming him, and not his quality of play... Your inability to recognize the difference is why it should be considered bannable. And it flat out says in the 10 commandments of the TL forums that professional players and long time members are given more leeway. If Naniwa and I made the exact same BM post, it is well within the TL guidelines to ban me and leave him alone. To add further clarification, Pros do get banned all the time (IE IdrA, TT1, and for some odd fucking reason Sheth has 3 bans at TL) so I wouldn't say they are given a lot of leeway.
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Seems like this is a massive problem in eSports. Players in Call of Duty 4 still haven't been paid prizes from 3 years ago, and nearly no one pays up. Can't hope to be taken seriously unless this problem is rectified. People can't do this as a job if they can't make money efficiently from it.
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The fact that some tourneys don't pay out or pay if there are enough harassed, and after, let's say, 3 months is really shocking.
The cash prize is really something i give importance to. I'm always very happy when i hear that a several k$ cash prize will be the stake of the competition, making me feel that e-sport is something big and becomes bigger and bigger. It is also a way to evaluate the prestige of a cup. I have always looked for the amount of the cash prize in every cups, even the monthly and weekly ones.
It's the first time i hear about that, and i really hope that there will be more communication from organisers and players about the issue for next tourneys. I care about players who give me a nice show. Respecful organisers also deserve a shoutout.
I won't -yet- bash tourneys organizers because reading this thread showed that it's not that easy to distinguish between who pays, who does not, who pays late, who pays too late, who needs to be harassed etc.
About the eswc issue, maybe quatrix overreacted because i didn't feel like the new organisation was directly accused. there was only a suspicion that could have been avoided if both tried to quickly take contact with each other (i even remember that cloud posted about that in the eswc thread and quatrix answered). I'm not saying that everything looked perfect and nothing should be changed about this precise problem.
Regarding law, at least in France, it is really obvious that such promises must be honoured. Here are even quick and cheap procedure where you can ask for damages if you win in order to repair the loss of time. I hope it is the case in all democratic country.
So now, my question is:
Can e-sport be economically viable and have a profitable business model? Because what we see here (even though it is a very well known issue, it is not for people brought to e-sport by sc2 like me) make me feel like the answer is "no" ATM.
So sad.
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On November 02 2011 04:29 Lann555 wrote: I doubt it has anything to do with attitude or laziness or poor management. I'm fairly certain in a lot of these cases the money simply isn't there.
A lot of people are high on the growth of E-sports right now, but there still isn't a very solid revenue structure. Premium passes only work for the biggest tournaments and then only a handful people even buy it. It's a drop in the bucket really. Sponsors and advertisement have to provide most of the money, but only the biggest tournaments are pulling 100K+ viewers and even that is not super interesting from an advertisement perspective. To put it in perspective, a program on dutch TV that pulls around 100K viewers is likely to get cancelled in the foreseeable future. And that is for a country of 16 million. So 100K worldwide is really not very much at all.
So tournaments that don't pull anywhere near that and are more in the 10K-ish range of viewers, yet still promise huge pricemoney are simply not viable from an economic perspective. It seems that right now there are a lot of people trying to get into E-sports, in the hope of holding out somehow until in blows up big and then cash in. Kind of a bubble, not entirely unlike the IT-bubble of the late 90's (where a lot of online companies had no actual way to make money). Wouldn't be surprised if most of the the tournaments that are mentioned here will disappear somewhere in the next year what kind of a business promises money that it doesn't have? Your prize pool is supposed to be locked in along with your yearly budget. That spending budget is to be LOCKED with only leeway for emergencies and disasters. You can definitely predict a minimum amount of spectators that you can draw varied revenue from, but then you have the sponsors who give you a fixed revenue. Even after the prize payouts and all your spending, you're supposed to be turning a profit. If the money isnt there, then your business is just one big joke. That is poor management. The prize money that you offer HAS to be viable or you're screwed.
Despite MLG having a small prize pool for this year, I applaud them for being consistent and flat out telling people 'we have a fixed budget that we can't change.' Because of this they can payout their players properly and look at the excess cash as something that they can put towards next year.
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