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United States1050 Posts
Hello everyone,
We've had time to review the PPSL situation and the community response to it and I felt like we should clarify some more issues in the interest of being open and honest with the community, as well as talk about our future plans for our regional events.
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a sponsor of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else.
2) Will we be able to swoop in and make everything right with the PPSL aftermath?
I wish we could just come in on a white horse and right all the wrongs, but we want to share more inside info why that's difficult. Our sponsorship of the event was only $14k, of which we gave Gus 50% before the event. To ensure that the event would be successful, we withheld the remaining $7k. This will not pay for even half of what's been reported he owes. We will work on evaluating where to best allocate the remaining funds.
3) Will we ever do an event in the Philippines again?
I cannot answer that either way right now until we evaluate our plans for 2012. If anything, the vigorous defense of the Filipino eSports scene from the Filipino fan base to this situation has only helped the cause to come back at some point. We've talked to both Dox and Mineski already about potential events in the future.
4) What does this mean for future IPL Regionals?
What kind of passed by the wayside without too much notice is we actually did similar things with the Devastation event in Arizona in October. Devastation had decided to include StarCraft 2 in its lineup this year and was run the same weekend as IPL 3. We talked to them and worked out a deal where we'd take on sponsorship for their event in exchange for letting us borrow Sir Scoots as a consultant and them cancelling their SC2 portion of the event. Devastation went extremely well and as a result, we actually brought in their senior leader, Robb, to our core team. This gives us the belief that we can successfully sponsor and partner with regional events and have them be successful.
Coming up in two weekends is Multiplay's i44 event in the UK, which is another regional qualifier (more info can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277765). We've been working with them for several weeks now and they proactively reached out to us immediately when they saw what went down on the first day with PPSL. We are working closely together to make sure this is a successful event that is enjoyable for live spectators, online spectators, and the players. Their staff is experienced and while we do not expect our regional partners to be able to create something like IPL 3, we do believe they can create something that is worth your valuable time to watch. We've helped them build an event chock full of top players - Grubby, WhiteRa, Thorzain, Bling, Hasuobs, StarEagle, Cloud, Sase, Stephano, Lau, Adelscott, Demuslim, Darkforce, Minigun, Ryung and Tails thus far - so please do not give up on our regional partners based on one bad experience. The best thing the community can do is watch each regional and give the organizers feedback to make each event even better. We are in this for the long term and we expect to see long term growth and quality increases from each of our regional partners.
Thank you!
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thank you for clarifying about the money withheld from the PPSL
stoked for IPL4!
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Glad to see you guys arent giving up on regional tournaments after this, and hopefully the Philippines gets a good event again sometime soon.
IPL fighting!
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Are you taking legal action against people who steal your money? yes/no?
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wow IPL really taking this seriously, props to them and i hope you wont have this much trouble in the future
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Anyone who blamed you people for this is stupid, it could of happened to anyone.
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Canada498 Posts
On November 10 2011 08:53 CookieMaker wrote:Are you taking legal action against people who steal your money? yes/no?
I would also really like to know if this is indeed your plan? (To pursue legal actions)
<3 GL In future events !!
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United States2095 Posts
Awesome! Absolutely awesome! I love the openness and how you have treated this all. Please keep it up!
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Yes, please come back to the philippines. There is still so much potential. And thank you for the support during all of this.
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Thanks for the information, good to know IPL is doing what is right.
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Dox is a great guy and continually runs good events for the SEA community. I completely agree that in the future you should be talking to him and getting him to help with any future events.
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Thank you IPL for everything you've done!
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Alex is the biggest man on the block : ), Thanks again for addressing questions alot of people are thinking about.
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Thanks for the updates, but I do agree with TheGunrun that the Philippines should get another chance in the future. Because it would be a huge shame if one person ruined it for the whole country.
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Huge props to IPL for all the support they have given.
And yes, Please come back to the Philippines! There is so much more the sc community, e-sports community in the country to offer.
<3
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God IPL is amazing. You guys are an inspiration not just to those of us who hope for a bright e-sports future, but to anyone looking at how to go above and beyond the call of duty in terms of customer satisfaction while running a business.
I salute you IPL, I'll definitely be buying the highest quality of streams and features for the finals.
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Can someone clarify what hapenned with Gus? I didn't follow the actual event at all, and read over the initial release statement but not the community response.
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it would be dumb for anyone to be concerned about the i44 event because of the ppsl scenario, theyve been running events for years now! I dont think anyone is blaming IPL for the catastrophe of an event that this seems to have been, and I guess thats in part due to how great their own events have been. It's clear to most onlookers that this isnt the type of messed up scenario that is usually associated with the IPL
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Thank you for not giving up on the Philippines, Alex.
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Hong Kong9135 Posts
Thanks for keeping the community informed, its sad things went so badly.
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Ipl is really showing how people should do public relations, open and honestly prevents speculation which spirals stuff out of control, good to hear your not giving up after this incident ipl ftw <3
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On November 10 2011 08:56 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Awesome! Absolutely awesome! I love the openness and how you have treated this all. Please keep it up!
If Sheth says it, I'll just limit myself to copying. (The same I do with BOs.)
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Thanks for everything IPL!
Btw... We are close to needing a sub-forum just for official statements
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Thanks for trying your hardest to make your events run smoothly IPL, handled this like a baws.
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IPL you always amaze me with how you always respond to every situation responsibly and openly! you are awesome!
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I think IPL has handled all this extremly well, didn't think any other organization would had handled like this.
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Yay IPL <3 for being communicative and responsive to community
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this is why i will continue to watch events with the IPL tag. excellent dedication. and although nothing is guaranteed, i know for sure that IPL is doing 110% of what they can to make every event they do amazing.
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this is how you do bsn in eSports! prop to IGN, im a fan!
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You guys are amazing. I wish every organisation was as transparent and level-headed as the IGN eSports team.
Much love. <3
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On November 10 2011 09:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Can someone clarify what hapenned with Gus? I didn't follow the actual event at all, and read over the initial release statement but not the community response. Someone should actually come up with a TL;DR.
Long story short, he fucked his own event up and has been pretty difficult to contact while Torch, TheGunrun and a lot of the production/AZK/PPSL staff have been left to deal with his shit.
This blog covers much of what's going on, but not everything: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283600
A lot of people have been saying he's been irresponsible (coming very late and being uncontactable for the early parts of the event, while everyone else didn't know who they needed contact), being an arrogant prick (someone made a post on PPSLTV's twitter saying "we couldn't have done it without Gus leading the way", others report that he was bragging at the event how he was the one who organized it).
Importantly, there is a $12k USD flight bill that one of his staff members is in debt for and he has promised that he will pay her, but every indication so far has shown that this is unlikely (not signing papers to take over the debt, etc, etc). Also TheGunrun had to pay a 900 USD hotel bill in advance for another staff member.
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gotta love that refreshing professional air in dealing with the stink that has gathered over the past few days. great work IPL! =)
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On November 10 2011 09:12 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Can someone clarify what hapenned with Gus? I didn't follow the actual event at all, and read over the initial release statement but not the community response. Someone should actually come up with a TL;DR. Long story short, he fucked his own event up and has been pretty difficult to contact while Torch, TheGunrun and a lot of the production/AZK/PPSL staff have been left to deal with his shit. This blog covers much of what's going on, but not everything: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283600A lot of people have been saying he's been irresponsible (coming very late and being uncontactable for the early parts of the event, while everyone else didn't know who they needed contact), being an arrogant prick (someone made a post on PPSLTV's twitter saying "we couldn't have done it without Gus leading the way", others report that he was bragging at the event how he was the one who organized it). Importantly, there is a $12k USD flight bill that one of his staff members is in debt for and he has promised that he will pay her, but every indication so far has shown that this is unlikely (not signing papers to take over the debt, etc, etc). Also TheGunrun had to pay a 900 USD hotel bill in advance for another staff member. I've been updating the blog along the way, it includes links to almost everything else that has been posted by other people.
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I love you IPL. You are so awesome, I will continue to support you and all your events.
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On November 10 2011 09:15 Dox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:12 pdd wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 FabledIntegral wrote: Can someone clarify what hapenned with Gus? I didn't follow the actual event at all, and read over the initial release statement but not the community response. Someone should actually come up with a TL;DR. Long story short, he fucked his own event up and has been pretty difficult to contact while Torch, TheGunrun and a lot of the production/AZK/PPSL staff have been left to deal with his shit. This blog covers much of what's going on, but not everything: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283600A lot of people have been saying he's been irresponsible (coming very late and being uncontactable for the early parts of the event, while everyone else didn't know who they needed contact), being an arrogant prick (someone made a post on PPSLTV's twitter saying "we couldn't have done it without Gus leading the way", others report that he was bragging at the event how he was the one who organized it). Importantly, there is a $12k USD flight bill that one of his staff members is in debt for and he has promised that he will pay her, but every indication so far has shown that this is unlikely (not signing papers to take over the debt, etc, etc). Also TheGunrun had to pay a 900 USD hotel bill in advance for another staff member. I've been updating the blog along the way, it includes links to almost everything else that has been posted by other people. there's just so much damn stuff he did that TL DR would be it's own column
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I love how you guys are going about the long term. I am of the opinion that the IPL is the best foreign SC2 tournament because you guys are constantly learning and improving, as well as garnering an amazingly good reputation from IPL3. Can't wait for the next regional and eventually IPL4!
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Thanks man...really happy you guys are talking with the right people now...
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This may not be good news to the woman who's facing a lot of financial trouble due to the tickets of the players (12k USD) but at least it sheds a little clarity on what amount IPL really handed down to Gus/AZK/PPSL.
However, despite of the fact that the 14k USD was the only arrangement, we do have to keep in mind that there are other sponsors aside from IGN who's money should also be accounted for.
As this entire situation deshroud and develops, everyone is going to get what they deserve, but the urgent matters should be keeping everyone out of trouble, specially those who's only trying to help out.
IGN is completely understandable. This is the kind of transparency that e-sports needs.
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Just to add my voice, iseries and multiplay in general are really good at what they do. I have no doubt they will deliver yet another kick ass event!
IGN <3
Plus, in the long run 14k is just a drop in the ocean compared to what newscorp is willing to spend on extending its viewership. Doubt this will effect them at all.
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Thanks for being open, honest and sharing what's happening with the community. It's great communication like this that turns a slight negative (I don't think IPL should be branded by what PPSL did) into a huge positive for you guys.
Cheers.
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IPL is so polished and professional in their community dealings.
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IGN (IPL) Such a good sponosor company.
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Thank you Alex, this is a much needed clear up over the sponsorship money
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On November 10 2011 09:41 vankaizer wrote: This may not be good news to the woman who's facing a lot of financial trouble due to the tickets of the players (12k USD) but at least it sheds a little clarity on what amount IPL really handed down to Gus/AZK/PPSL.
However, despite of the fact that the 14k USD was the only arrangement, we do have to keep in mind that there are other sponsors aside from IGN who's money should also be accounted for.
As this entire situation deshroud and develops, everyone is going to get what they deserve, but the urgent matters should be keeping everyone out of trouble, specially those who's only trying to help out.
IGN is completely understandable. This is the kind of transparency that e-sports needs.
Easy to be transparent when there's nothing to hide.
Great PR work IPL, the community loves ya <3
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Thank you IGN for the continuous support for esports. Please do come back to the Philippines.
Despite everything that happened I know you guys are not giving up on us. Thanks again!
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IPL does it again!, thank you for sharing this information. Here's hoping for the best!
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IPL is so badass. Classy, classy organization.
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Thank you Alex for being so open with this (even included the sponsorship dollars with PPSL). Although I'm not Philipino or have any cultural ties with the Philipines at all (Chinese-Canadian here). I urge IPL and any other tournament holders to not give up on eSports in Philipines and the SEA. After reading countless posts these few days, there are a ton of passionate and dependable people who can run a tournament there. Don't let one bad egg ruin eSports for SEA. I'll keep definitely keep tuning in for future IPL events and IPL-sponsored events and this made me even more confident in the IPL brand (openess, and no bullshit approach).
Lastly, we have to catch this Gus guy and he has to held accountable. Maybe any future events he holds needs to be boycotted until he has a real apology (his last one didn't even qualify as an explanation). Esports is too volatile I feel and we can't have one asshole ruining this for everyone.
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IPL:
Setting the bar higher.
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I know this is a long shot, but is there any way the 7k could go straight to Amanda? It would help her a lot.
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I'm pretty damn impressed with IPL over the past few months. Seriously legit stuff. I hate to say it but i think the professionalism partially comes from where the money is, i mean, IGN is a pretty well-established news outlet and one of the most important in the gaming scene. Though their success does not directly correlate to their responsibility, i think it plays a big part. I hope as our fledgeling sc2 e-sports organizations get more money, their high profile will encourage this level of professionalism.
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Thank you for handling this matter with transparency and professionalism. I know personally it will be remembered when deciding to watch your tournaments.
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I've gained a lot of respect for IPL with how they have been running things lately.
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Really appreciate yous fullas attitude during this whole thing. Really helps keep the faith.
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i love the way IGN is responding to the events! forever <3 IPL :D
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More clarity in the dilemma- IPL STYLE
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Love the personalized and proper responses from IPL :3
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Oh man don't let JediRobb decide any tournament structure please! Devastation tried to innovate way too much in an area that didn't need innovation and was ragged on about it by all the fighting game dudes I saw interviewed afterwards. Seems like a really nice guy though.
Good work on trying to sort out the phillipines mess!
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MAN I absolutely love the IPL more and more. Really happy to see things cleared up in such a great manner. Unfortunate that it had to happen, but at least IPL is dealing with it properly. Thanks for the clarification!
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Thanks for a follow up on our questions. To be honest when I first heard IGN was jumping into the e-sports scene I was kinda sceptical that their tournament would be very small, short lived and their commitment would be lacklustre, much to my cynical beliefs. However again and again I've been proven wrong, that IGN is here for the long term and are dedicated to growing e-sports.
I hope IPL continues to succeed, thrive and set a new bar of standard for the e-sports community. Thank you for your efforts.
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On November 10 2011 08:56 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Awesome! Absolutely awesome! I love the openness and how you have treated this all. Please keep it up! Sheth speaks the truth! Huge respect to how IGN has handled this travesty.
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Im curious if legal action would be actually worth it from anyone's viewpoint.
The $ involved would make it seem like if legal action were pursued it would be for the principle rather than the $.
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IPL is responsive and communicative to the community. I love it.
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Thanks Alex and IGN.
Gus, take note of OP. This is what a clarification post looks like. Precise and concise.
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Thanks for the continuing to keep the community informed :D You guys are doing a great job.
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As expected from IPL, a precise and informative OP... Your openness in light of this situation is amazing! mad respect
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While I appreciate the candor and openness that IGN is showing, I don't feel a "We apologize and we'll still live up to our agreement" is enough in some regards. IGN not only sponsored the event, but made it an IPL Qualifier. To me that means some level of responsibility for problems at the event should be shouldered by IGN.
Maybe I'm wrong, but if the event had been well run, I kind of think people would have attributed this to IPL, praising them for building up esports in SEA, even though the PPSL wasn't run by IGN.
But instead, everything is going to hell, and a lot of people are out of money, whether its thegunrun footing the hotel bill, amanda booking plane tickets, numerous people not being paid for their work, and even all the people who paid for VIP passes, but received no VIP services. For the most part, these people do not have the resources, know how or power to do much of anything about it.
I think we can all agree there is no fault to the sponsors beyond negligence in choosing who to sponsor, and legally, they probably do not owe anything more. However, I think they should accept responsibility for that negligence, and take care of the people who helped salvage an event that carried their name on it. Moreover, I would think that IGN or any of the other sponsors are better equipped to pursue reimbursement from Gus Ledesma than any of the people who have been cheated.
I'm not saying IGN should take 100% of the liability. I'm sure each of the sponsors had agreements as to amounts of sponsorship and purposes for the money agreed upon, and hopefully they can get together and figure out if there are easy answers as to how to resolve the issues at hand.
I just strongly believe they cannot leave the 'little people' (yeah, maybe a bit dramatic) stuck with the short end of the stick on this one. For a growing community such as our SC2 scene, we need the bigger organizations to step up and help out when things go wrong.
I know there have been outcries on TL to raise funds to help amanda out in particular, but in reality that could get messy on many levels (so many countries, so many different currencies), and it would also be highly inefficient in terms of multiple small money transfers.
If instead IGN took care of it, I think an SC2 community that already holds them in high regard, would be more than willing to further show their loyalty in the future, whether it be by signing up for a Prime account, or buying a shirt, or attending future events. Perhaps the budgeting issues involved with this would be greater than I understand, but I think the return on investment from TL members in the future would outclass whatever they'd have to spend here now.
Sorry that was long, I just haven't seen this concern/opinion expressed, and I thought it needed to be thrown out there.
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Does anyone know what is happening with Clide and Amanda??
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Great job being open and honest with the community. I think people's trust in the IPL has never been higher, especially after a botched event like this.
I hope this is not being seen as spiteful, but I hope you guys go after Gus with the help of IGN's legal department - the way he's been trying to dodge his responsibilities just pisses me off.
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I think they are showing some responsibility by stating that they will try to distribute the remaining funds to the appropriate parties. They do not have any presence in the Philippines, and I doubt they have the full story on what needs to be done there. It'd be completely unfair to expect them to swoop in like Superman and set everything right at this moment.
My personal expectation is that IPL distributes the remaining funds, and then give out additional support to the people who were shafted by this event. I don't expect them to do this right away since the matter of Gus should be dealt with first (after all, he has the other $7,000 from IPL and $2,000 from S2).
On November 10 2011 12:07 InvXXVII wrote: Does anyone know what is happening with Clide and Amanda??
Clive*
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Thanks for the constant information and updates. I hope that there is someway for the misused funds to be recovered. Thanks IPL and keep up the good work!
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On November 10 2011 12:08 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:07 InvXXVII wrote: Does anyone know what is happening with Clide and Amanda?? Clive*
Oups Clive lol. Are they ok?
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On November 10 2011 12:08 JinDesu wrote: I think they are showing some responsibility by stating that they will try to distribute the remaining funds to the appropriate parties. They do not have any presence in the Philippines, and I doubt they have the full story on what needs to be done there. It'd be completely unfair to expect them to swoop in like Superman and set everything right at this moment.
My personal expectation is that IPL distributes the remaining funds, and then give out additional support to the people who were shafted by this event. I don't expect them to do this right away since the matter of Gus should be dealt with first (after all, he has the other $7,000 from IPL and $2,000 from S2).
To be clear, obviously, the best solution is that Gus comes in and everything is settled properly. But in the case that he disappears and refuses to pay the money due, I just feel the next best answer is for IGN/other sponsors (I don't know to what extent twitch.tv, nvidia, razer, etc were sponsors) to actively take responsibility.
I was concerned because as of now, (at least to my understanding) IGN has apologized, promised the players the event still would be counted as an IPL qualifier, and said they will still allocate the money they had already agreed to, but beyond that, the responsibility was on PPSL. I just hope they see that at this time, we need more from them.
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On November 10 2011 12:03 SarsFlu wrote: While I appreciate the candor and openness that IGN is showing, I don't feel a "We apologize and we'll still live up to our agreement" is enough in some regards. IGN not only sponsored the event, but made it an IPL Qualifier. To me that means some level of responsibility for problems at the event should be shouldered by IGN.
Maybe I'm wrong, but if the event had been well run, I kind of think people would have attributed this to IPL, praising them for building up esports in SEA, even though the PPSL wasn't run by IGN.
But instead, everything is going to hell, and a lot of people are out of money, whether its thegunrun footing the hotel bill, amanda booking plane tickets, numerous people not being paid for their work, and even all the people who paid for VIP passes, but received no VIP services. For the most part, these people do not have the resources, know how or power to do much of anything about it.
I think we can all agree there is no fault to the sponsors beyond negligence in choosing who to sponsor, and legally, they probably do not owe anything more. However, I think they should accept responsibility for that negligence, and take care of the people who helped salvage an event that carried their name on it. Moreover, I would think that IGN or any of the other sponsors are better equipped to pursue reimbursement from Gus Ledesma than any of the people who have been cheated.
I'm not saying IGN should take 100% of the liability. I'm sure each of the sponsors had agreements as to amounts of sponsorship and purposes for the money agreed upon, and hopefully they can get together and figure out if there are easy answers as to how to resolve the issues at hand.
I just strongly believe they cannot leave the 'little people' (yeah, maybe a bit dramatic) stuck with the short end of the stick on this one. For a growing community such as our SC2 scene, we need the bigger organizations to step up and help out when things go wrong.
I know there have been outcries on TL to raise funds to help amanda out in particular, but in reality that could get messy on many levels (so many countries, so many different currencies), and it would also be highly inefficient in terms of multiple small money transfers.
If instead IGN took care of it, I think an SC2 community that already holds them in high regard, would be more than willing to further show their loyalty in the future, whether it be by signing up for a Prime account, or buying a shirt, or attending future events. Perhaps the budgeting issues involved with this would be greater than I understand, but I think the return on investment from TL members in the future would outclass whatever they'd have to spend here now.
Sorry that was long, I just haven't seen this concern/opinion expressed, and I thought it needed to be thrown out there.
Hi Gus </sarcasm> No! IGN does not have to do a thing more than what is already stated in their contract with PPSL. Just because they're a "big" corporation doesn't mean they have to throw money away to fix someone else's problems (Gus').
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Once all this happened I knew that IGN was going to evaluate all the information and release a smart, logical and clarifying statement. I wish we had more answers of what Gus did with the money and if the airplane tickets/travel agent debt (her name slips my mind) was taken care of. But the way Alex, David Ting and the rest of the IPL staff have conducted themselves so far, I'm sure everybody will be taken care of to the best of their ability.
My last thought, not to bring up past BS after Alex has released this uplifting statement, is that I'm still wondering about the Gus and YoonYJ situation. As far as we all know, YoonYJ took 3rd place and was promised not only verbally, but a written contract, to be flown and accommodated for the regional qualifier. The posted conversations between Gus and YoonYJ clearly showed that Gus was dodging him and making every excuse in the book to not send him to the qualifier. Then we all know that Gus ended up sending Sickness after he adopted the AZK clan tag. Which is total horsesh!t.
Now the question I have is AZKSickness innocent in all this, meaning...
~Did Gus just tell him "Hey Sickness, if you add our tag I can get you to the qualifier all expenses paid"
or
~Did Sickness know that YoonYJ was getting screwed in this deal and he was in collusion with Gus. Depending on the answer to this would greatly affect my feelings on Sickness as a player/person and the whole AZK clan?
If anybody knows any information I would love to konw.
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On November 10 2011 12:23 BooMeyMoMo wrote: Once all this happened I knew that IGN was going to evaluate all the information and release a smart, logical and clarifying statement. I wish we had more answers of what Gus did with the money and if the airplane tickets/travel agent debt (her name slips my mind) was taken care of. But the way Alex, David Ting and the rest of the IPL staff have conducted themselves so far, I'm sure everybody will be taken care of to the best of their ability.
My last thought, not to bring up past BS after Alex has released this uplifting statement, is that I'm still wondering about the Gus and YoonYJ situation. As far as we all know, YoonYJ took 3rd place and was promised not only verbally, but a written contract, to be flown and accommodated for the regional qualifier. The posted conversations between Gus and YoonYJ clearly showed that Gus was dodging him and making every excuse in the book to not send him to the qualifier. Then we all know that Gus ended up sending Sickness after he adopted the AZK clan tag. Which is total horsesh!t.
Now the question I have is AZKSickness innocent in all this, meaning...
~Did Gus just tell him "Hey Sickness, if you add our tag I can get you to the qualifier all expenses paid"
or
~Did Sickness know that YoonYJ was getting screwed in this deal and he was in collusion with Gus. Depending on the answer to this would greatly affect my feelings on Sickness as a player/person and the whole AZK clan?
If anybody knows any information I would love to konw.
This question may be better placed in on of the other threads - the Gus or the PPSL thread. This thread should be more a discussion on IGN's side of things.
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This is exactly how large corporations that sponsor esports events should act. Thanks for your continued efforts; you have my respect. Remaining open towards the community to help foster growth of the scene is exactly what is needed.
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On November 10 2011 12:17 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:08 JinDesu wrote: I think they are showing some responsibility by stating that they will try to distribute the remaining funds to the appropriate parties. They do not have any presence in the Philippines, and I doubt they have the full story on what needs to be done there. It'd be completely unfair to expect them to swoop in like Superman and set everything right at this moment.
My personal expectation is that IPL distributes the remaining funds, and then give out additional support to the people who were shafted by this event. I don't expect them to do this right away since the matter of Gus should be dealt with first (after all, he has the other $7,000 from IPL and $2,000 from S2).
To be clear, obviously, the best solution is that Gus comes in and everything is settled properly. But in the case that he disappears and refuses to pay the money due, I just feel the next best answer is for IGN/other sponsors (I don't know to what extent twitch.tv, nvidia, razer, etc were sponsors) to actively take responsibility. I was concerned because as of now, (at least to my understanding) IGN has apologized, promised the players the event still would be counted as an IPL qualifier, and said they will still allocate the money they had already agreed to, but beyond that, the responsibility was on PPSL. I just hope they see that at this time, we need more from them.
Umm.. Sars don't mean to be rude but that's stupid of you.
They guaranteed that it was still qualifier even after the mess Gus left because the players were already there. If they pulled out the IPL Qualifier clause to the games then the effort the pros put to it would be a complete and utter waste. Why do you think MKP, Moon, Sen, Fruitdealer played? It wasn't for the money. Think about it, would they have stayed through the conditions of lag spikes, disconnects and problematic hardware if it wasn't an IPL Qualifier? It was another saving grace not for Gus but meant for the players who participated and gave it their best despite the shortcomings of the PPSL.
You want someone else to fallback on for the "Responsibility" for the totality of the event because the one who should have been responsible wasn't. What fairy tale land do you think this is?
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On November 10 2011 12:22 Sky101 wrote: Hi Gus </sarcasm> No! IGN does not have to do a thing more than what is already stated in their contract with PPSL. Just because they're a "big" corporation doesn't mean they have to throw money away to fix someone else's problems (Gus').
If you read my post at all, I admitted they don't 'have' to do anything more. However, if you watched that stream at all, that thing looked like an IGN event. Unless you were well informed, you wouldn't have known beforehand that it wasn't an IGN run event (as it was an IPL Qualifier afterall, with Tastosis and Seltzerplease). This is why I directed my post at IGN more than the other sponsors.
The point isn't to let Gus get off scott free. Obviously, if IGN were to foot the bill, the expectation would be that they'd seek payment from Gus, through legal means if necessary. Its just demoralizing to see people who worked desperately and paid dearly to support a game they love get stuck in dire straits when someone better equipped to handle it is there.
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On November 10 2011 12:34 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:22 Sky101 wrote: Hi Gus </sarcasm> No! IGN does not have to do a thing more than what is already stated in their contract with PPSL. Just because they're a "big" corporation doesn't mean they have to throw money away to fix someone else's problems (Gus'). If you read my post at all, I admitted they don't 'have' to do anything more. However, if you watched that stream at all, that thing looked like an IGN event. Unless you were well informed, you wouldn't have known beforehand that it wasn't an IGN run event (as it was an IPL Qualifier afterall, with Tastosis and Seltzerplease). This is why I directed my post at IGN more than the other sponsors. The point isn't to let Gus get off scott free. Obviously, if IGN were to foot the bill, the expectation would be that they'd seek payment from Gus, through legal means if necessary. Its just demoralizing to see people who worked desperately and paid dearly to support a game they love get stuck in dire straits when someone better equipped to handle it is there.
IPL has done phenomenal things for esports, has hosted phenomenal tournaments, and has been open and honest with the community on a regular basis. Asking more of them is just greedy.
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On November 10 2011 12:34 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:22 Sky101 wrote: Hi Gus </sarcasm> No! IGN does not have to do a thing more than what is already stated in their contract with PPSL. Just because they're a "big" corporation doesn't mean they have to throw money away to fix someone else's problems (Gus'). If you read my post at all, I admitted they don't 'have' to do anything more. However, if you watched that stream at all, that thing looked like an IGN event. Unless you were well informed, you wouldn't have known beforehand that it wasn't an IGN run event (as it was an IPL Qualifier afterall, with Tastosis and Seltzerplease). This is why I directed my post at IGN more than the other sponsors. The point isn't to let Gus get off scott free. Obviously, if IGN were to foot the bill, the expectation would be that they'd seek payment from Gus, through legal means if necessary. Its just demoralizing to see people who worked desperately and paid dearly to support a game they love get stuck in dire straits when someone better equipped to handle it is there.
Well if you did watch the stream, it didn't look anything like an IGN run gig. I mean 480p looked almost the same with 240p. Other than that, would you even just simply watch the stream and not be aware of forums discussing the issues?
You can't expect IGN to put themelves out there then hope they can press charges and right Gus' wrong.
Again, they made it an IPL qualifier to help the SEA scene and specifically the Phil. E-sport community. They didn't pull out the right of the champion to be qualified for IPL4 because they wanted to help, but they could very well have pulled out if they wanted to because of failure to abide by the agreement between IGN and PPSL.
As was said in Lo3, we don't even know if the event venue was paid, and who else and how much still needed to paid. Don't tell me a corporation like IGN would simply just say o 12k, no biggie. Then suddenly oh so now its 15k, chump change. Then 20k.. hmm.. let me think about it a bit, sure! That's not how you run a company Sars.
Also, if you think about it thoroughly, IGN shouldn't cover anything beyond 7k because it would set a bad precedent for other events that might "fail". They future might look back on this and say IGN did this and that for PPSL why didn't they do it for (future failed event here).
I hope that gives you a better understanding of the situation.
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On November 10 2011 12:31 17Sphynx17 wrote: Umm.. Sars don't mean to be rude but that's stupid of you.
They guaranteed that it was still qualifier even after the mess Gus left because the players were already there. If they pulled out the IPL Qualifier clause to the games then the effort the pros put to it would be a complete and utter waste. Why do you think MKP, Moon, Sen, Fruitdealer played? It wasn't for the money. Think about it, would they have stayed through the conditions of lag spikes, disconnects and problematic hardware if it wasn't an IPL Qualifier? It was another saving grace not for Gus but meant for the players who participated and gave it their best despite the shortcomings of the PPSL.
You want someone else to fallback on for the "Responsibility" for the totality of the event because the one who should have been responsible wasn't. What fairy tale land do you think this is?
First off, blame and responsibility are different. I don't think IGN is to blame, and I said so in my first post.
Let me offer you two analogies. Neither perfectly fits this situation, and perhaps neither are realistic, but I think the point is the same.
Lets say the New York Giants sell out a (American) NFL football game. People come to the stadium, but for whatever reason, the game is not played and the entirety of the New York Giants corporation disappears, and refuse to reimburse the ticketbuyers. You can bet that ultimately the NFL would be held responsible for taking care of those fans who paid, for paying the employees who went to work there that day, and to answer to any problems caused by one of their franchises disappearing. Why? Because that event carried the NFL name on it. Even though the NY Giants are a separate company, the NFL still needs to protect their brand.
Lets say a guy pays McDonalds for the rights to open a McDonalds chain in his city. He then proceeds to put razor blades in all the burgers. People sue, the Media/public is in an uproar. McDonalds does not own that particular restaurant,but you can bet that they are going to have to get involved in the issue legally. Why? Because its still a McDonalds restaurant, carrying their name.
I don't know what fairytale world you live in where a business doesn't have to take responsibility for their brand name.
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On November 10 2011 12:49 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:31 17Sphynx17 wrote: Umm.. Sars don't mean to be rude but that's stupid of you.
They guaranteed that it was still qualifier even after the mess Gus left because the players were already there. If they pulled out the IPL Qualifier clause to the games then the effort the pros put to it would be a complete and utter waste. Why do you think MKP, Moon, Sen, Fruitdealer played? It wasn't for the money. Think about it, would they have stayed through the conditions of lag spikes, disconnects and problematic hardware if it wasn't an IPL Qualifier? It was another saving grace not for Gus but meant for the players who participated and gave it their best despite the shortcomings of the PPSL.
You want someone else to fallback on for the "Responsibility" for the totality of the event because the one who should have been responsible wasn't. What fairy tale land do you think this is? First off, blame and responsibility are different. I don't think IGN is to blame, and I said so in my first post. Let me offer you two analogies. Neither perfectly fits this situation, and perhaps neither are realistic, but I think the point is the same. Lets say the New York Giants sell out a (American) NFL football game. People come to the stadium, but for whatever reason, the game is not played and the entirety of the New York Giants corporation disappears, and refuse to reimburse the ticketbuyers. You can bet that ultimately the NFL would be held responsible for taking care of those fans who paid, for paying the employees who went to work there that day, and to answer to any problems caused by one of their franchises disappearing. Why? Because that event carried the NFL name on it. Even though the NY Giants are a separate company, the NFL still needs to protect their brand. Lets say a guy pays McDonalds for the rights to open a McDonalds chain in his city. He then proceeds to put razor blades in all the burgers. People sue, the Media/public is in an uproar. McDonalds does not own that particular restaurant,but you can bet that they are going to have to get involved in the issue legally. Why? Because its still a McDonalds restaurant, carrying their name. I don't know what fairytale world you live in where a business doesn't have to take responsibility for their brand name.
> edit <
Your NFL example doesn't work. isntead of the NFL paying, in this case it would be something like....Pepsi because they sponsor the new york giants. The NFL is not a sponsor of the New York Giants. There IS NO NY GIANTS w/o the NFL, theres a difference.
IGN has stated their going to use the remaining funds to try and fix any wrongs they can, but expecting them to fix EVERYTHING is dillusional. They were a sponsor, there were other sponsors - if you beleive ign should pay, all other sponsors should help to right? It doesn't work like that.
edit : i cant format properly.
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On November 10 2011 12:49 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:31 17Sphynx17 wrote: Umm.. Sars don't mean to be rude but that's stupid of you.
They guaranteed that it was still qualifier even after the mess Gus left because the players were already there. If they pulled out the IPL Qualifier clause to the games then the effort the pros put to it would be a complete and utter waste. Why do you think MKP, Moon, Sen, Fruitdealer played? It wasn't for the money. Think about it, would they have stayed through the conditions of lag spikes, disconnects and problematic hardware if it wasn't an IPL Qualifier? It was another saving grace not for Gus but meant for the players who participated and gave it their best despite the shortcomings of the PPSL.
You want someone else to fallback on for the "Responsibility" for the totality of the event because the one who should have been responsible wasn't. What fairy tale land do you think this is? First off, blame and responsibility are different. I don't think IGN is to blame, and I said so in my first post. Let me offer you two analogies. Neither perfectly fits this situation, and perhaps neither are realistic, but I think the point is the same. Lets say the New York Giants sell out a (American) NFL football game. People come to the stadium, but for whatever reason, the game is not played and the entirety of the New York Giants corporation disappears, and refuse to reimburse the ticketbuyers. You can bet that ultimately the NFL would be held responsible for taking care of those fans who paid, for paying the employees who went to work there that day, and to answer to any problems caused by one of their franchises disappearing. Why? Because that event carried the NFL name on it. Even though the NY Giants are a separate company, the NFL still needs to protect their brand. Lets say a guy pays McDonalds for the rights to open a McDonalds chain in his city. He then proceeds to put razor blades in all the burgers. People sue, the Media/public is in an uproar. McDonalds does not own that particular restaurant,but you can bet that they are going to have to get involved in the issue legally. Why? Because its still a McDonalds restaurant, carrying their name. I don't know what fairytale world you live in where a business doesn't have to take responsibility for their brand name.
Except in this case nobody blames IGN/IPL or holds their brand name responsible for this fiasco. Even with that said, they are taking care of what they can to make things right and to expect anymore from them or to hold them to your standard is unreasonable.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 12:49 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:31 17Sphynx17 wrote: Umm.. Sars don't mean to be rude but that's stupid of you.
They guaranteed that it was still qualifier even after the mess Gus left because the players were already there. If they pulled out the IPL Qualifier clause to the games then the effort the pros put to it would be a complete and utter waste. Why do you think MKP, Moon, Sen, Fruitdealer played? It wasn't for the money. Think about it, would they have stayed through the conditions of lag spikes, disconnects and problematic hardware if it wasn't an IPL Qualifier? It was another saving grace not for Gus but meant for the players who participated and gave it their best despite the shortcomings of the PPSL.
You want someone else to fallback on for the "Responsibility" for the totality of the event because the one who should have been responsible wasn't. What fairy tale land do you think this is? First off, blame and responsibility are different. I don't think IGN is to blame, and I said so in my first post. Let me offer you two analogies. Neither perfectly fits this situation, and perhaps neither are realistic, but I think the point is the same. Lets say the New York Giants sell out a (American) NFL football game. People come to the stadium, but for whatever reason, the game is not played and the entirety of the New York Giants corporation disappears, and refuse to reimburse the ticketbuyers. You can bet that ultimately the NFL would be held responsible for taking care of those fans who paid, for paying the employees who went to work there that day, and to answer to any problems caused by one of their franchises disappearing. Why? Because that event carried the NFL name on it. Even though the NY Giants are a separate company, the NFL still needs to protect their brand. Lets say a guy pays McDonalds for the rights to open a McDonalds chain in his city. He then proceeds to put razor blades in all the burgers. People sue, the Media/public is in an uproar. McDonalds does not own that particular restaurant,but you can bet that they are going to have to get involved in the issue legally. Why? Because its still a McDonalds restaurant, carrying their name. I don't know what fairytale world you live in where a business doesn't have to take responsibility for their brand name.
I'm sorry Sars but I find that analogy still hard to swallow.
First of your analogy of the NFL, you talk of a corporation suddenly disappearing, a reputable corporation or group. It's not a reality that would happen so I scratch that off the list.
EDIT: Oh and in the event that it did happen, what would happen is Giants would go to bankruptcy court, all their assets would be liquidated to pay for whatever dues. I still don't see NFL ponying up the cash for the Giants though in whatever scenario you want to put it.
Second scenario, Mcdonalds goes out and says this is an isolated incident with a rogue employee. All is well. Cmon Sars, you are talking about a single franchise of Mcdonalds. It's different if every single one of their chains does it.
And it is the PPSL not the IPL ok? the brand was PPSL that counted as a qualifier. MLG has a qualifier for Code S Spots for GSL right? does that mean MLG and GSL are one and the same? It doesn't Sars, it never did.
So what you want to happen is a fairy tale.
How about HonSlaught, are you saying S2 games should also go forth and run an event to have it happen because they were a legitimate sponsor and shell out another 2k usd that went missing the first time?
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On November 10 2011 12:43 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well if you did watch the stream, it didn't look anything like an IGN run gig. I mean 480p looked almost the same with 240p. Other than that, would you even just simply watch the stream and not be aware of forums discussing the issues?
You can't expect IGN to put themelves out there then hope they can press charges and right Gus' wrong.
Again, they made it an IPL qualifier to help the SEA scene and specifically the Phil. E-sport community. They didn't pull out the right of the champion to be qualified for IPL4 because they wanted to help, but they could very well have pulled out if they wanted to because of failure to abide by the agreement between IGN and PPSL.
As was said in Lo3, we don't even know if the event venue was paid, and who else and how much still needed to paid. Don't tell me a corporation like IGN would simply just say o 12k, no biggie. Then suddenly oh so now its 15k, chump change. Then 20k.. hmm.. let me think about it a bit, sure! That's not how you run a company Sars.
Also, if you think about it thoroughly, IGN shouldn't cover anything beyond 7k because it would set a bad precedent for other events that might "fail". They future might look back on this and say IGN did this and that for PPSL why didn't they do it for (future failed event here).
I hope that gives you a better understanding of the situation.
I did watch the stream for a few hours the first day. EVERYTHING said IGN on it. The stage, the booths, the stream itself. As someone else said, many of the notable players probably would not have shown up if it weren't an IPL qualifier. I understand how commendable the effort to expanding esports globally is, and how big a risk it was. But thats exactly it. It was a RISK.
If you put your brand on a product that openly, and openly connect it to the rest of your products, I don't see how you can't feel compelled to uphold the quality of your brand name. I already said, it maybe harder budget wise for them to do it than I was presenting it, but as I said, if all the people clamoring to donate money to the cause were instead to pledge to spend it with IGN, it would create a safer, more unified way of taking care of the people who were wronged, and creating a stronger position to go after Gus.
The only precedent I see this setting is that, as they have already said, in the future, they are going to be less trusting, and more thorough in choosing what events to sponsor and support. The chances of IGN/IPL backing an event that is poorly run again in the future I would guess to be basically nil.
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On November 10 2011 12:34 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:22 Sky101 wrote: Hi Gus </sarcasm> No! IGN does not have to do a thing more than what is already stated in their contract with PPSL. Just because they're a "big" corporation doesn't mean they have to throw money away to fix someone else's problems (Gus'). If you read my post at all, I admitted they don't 'have' to do anything more. However, if you watched that stream at all, that thing looked like an IGN event. Unless you were well informed, you wouldn't have known beforehand that it wasn't an IGN run event (as it was an IPL Qualifier afterall, with Tastosis and Seltzerplease). This is why I directed my post at IGN more than the other sponsors. The point isn't to let Gus get off scott free. Obviously, if IGN were to foot the bill, the expectation would be that they'd seek payment from Gus, through legal means if necessary. Its just demoralizing to see people who worked desperately and paid dearly to support a game they love get stuck in dire straits when someone better equipped to handle it is there. First, IGN has shouldered some of the blame, as you can tell by the IPL's message to the community. Second, it seems that it is you who clearly have not been reading the 'Posts' carefully IPL has apologized to the community for giving us a lousy product under the IPL name, albeit a product outsourced to PPSL. Legally speaking, the only thing they need to do is wire the rest of the 7k to Gus and wash their hands off the event, but they took the onus on themselves to use the money to pay the people who worked hard at the event, only to be deceived and paid nothing from Gus. Asking them to pay anymore would cause a debacle not unlike a roman carnival, as the sum that Gus owes is definitely more than 13k, as we know for a fact that he does not just owe Clive (now thegunrun) and Amanda money, but much of his event staff (KTSMedia and groundstaff), he people he scammed for VIP tickets, and YJ 1.6k as well. This will altogether add up to be a sum just as much of not more than the sponsored sum of 14k.
It's also sad that you don't know the person that will get all the flak for this, David Ting, the man behind IPL, who has done so much for the esports community. IGN isn't a charity organization and things isnt as simple as 'David snaps his fingers twice and another 14k magically appears'. If anything he's probably already in a lot of trouble with the IGN higher ups, and asking for more money will only get him into even more trouble, trouble that Gus caused.
As a matter of moral correctness and principle it should be Gus who pays for the debts that he owes to the people whose blood sweat and years he has wasted, not anyone else.
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what really makes me sad is that these guys came up to ipl and for whatever reason ipl decided to give them a shot. they saw a bunch of guys who wanted to make something happen in a developing scene and ipl ran with it. those guys let ipl down big time, and now i dont see ipl doing that again. it was probably naive to think some people who approach you with no previous experience could pull off anything decent (ignoring the downright illegality of some of the things gus has done) but it makes me kinda feel good about ipl and our community to know that they were willing to give it a try.
if it had been a success maybe ipl would be looking to run more events and cups where they could take a hands off approach. offering a spot at a major ipl event along with the prize would draw attention to less hyped events and who knows how things could of gone from there. a real community project to bring content out with minimal backing from ipl to keep it exciting.
but now i dont see that happening. i dont see ipl taking that risk again and that makes me sad. so if alex is reading this thread id love to hear that they havent given up on backing smaller producers. grass roots stuff is always the secret to success and growth but not many people have the capital to sit back while the grass grows. ign has that capital, right now they are the only ones who could fund anything like that in a meaningful way.
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I really hope u keep doing this regional things and keep making your brand grow bigger alongside with eSports thanks for the post and keep it up
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On November 10 2011 12:56 SMD wrote: Your NFL example doesn't work. isntead of the NFL paying, in this case it would be something like....Pepsi because they sponsor the new york giants. The NFL is not a sponsor of the New York Giants. There IS NO NY GIANTS w/o the NFL, theres a difference.
IGN has stated their going to use the remaining funds to try and fix any wrongs they can, but expecting them to fix EVERYTHING is dillusional. They were a sponsor, there were other sponsors - if you beleive ign should pay, all other sponsors should help to right? It doesn't work like that.
edit : i cant format properly.
As I said, they weren't perfect analogies, but just remember that each NFL franchise is its own company, selling its own individual team. Anyone can create their own football team, and try to get people to buy tickets to watch them. The difference is, when a team plays for the NFL, that brand name instills an assurance of quality and legitimacy. The NFL makes sure that teams are properly run to account for the success of the whole league.
As soon as IGN agreed to let this team (the PPSL) be apart of their league (a qualifier for the overall IPL), the event now carries that same assurance of quality and legitimacy, to the players, to the fans, and to the employees. At least, that would be my argument. This is what sets them apart from other sponsors, although I would hope the other sponsors might be willing to help out too.
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On November 10 2011 13:05 turdburgler wrote: what really makes me sad is that these guys came up to ipl and for whatever reason ipl decided to give them a shot. they saw a bunch of guys who wanted to make something happen in a developing scene and ipl ran with it. those guys let ipl down big time, and now i dont see ipl doing that again. it was probably naive to think some people who approach you with no previous experience could pull off anything decent (ignoring the downright illegality of some of the things gus has done) but it makes me kinda feel good about ipl and our community to know that they were willing to give it a try.
if it had been a success maybe ipl would be looking to run more events and cups where they could take a hands off approach. offering a spot at a major ipl event along with the prize would draw attention to less hyped events and who knows how things could of gone from there. a real community project to bring content out with minimal backing from ipl to keep it exciting.
but now i dont see that happening. i dont see ipl taking that risk again and that makes me sad. so if alex is reading this thread id love to hear that they havent given up on backing smaller producers. grass roots stuff is always the secret to success and growth but not many people have the capital to sit back while the grass grows. ign has that capital, right now they are the only ones who could fund anything like that in a meaningful way.
If you read IPL's Follow-Up message at all, IPL actually went to PPSL. When they found out PPSL had hired Tastosis and were planning to bring in some big-name players, they made a deal with PPSL to change the date of their event, in exchange for IPL's sponsorship of the event.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 12:59 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 12:43 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well if you did watch the stream, it didn't look anything like an IGN run gig. I mean 480p looked almost the same with 240p. Other than that, would you even just simply watch the stream and not be aware of forums discussing the issues?
You can't expect IGN to put themelves out there then hope they can press charges and right Gus' wrong.
Again, they made it an IPL qualifier to help the SEA scene and specifically the Phil. E-sport community. They didn't pull out the right of the champion to be qualified for IPL4 because they wanted to help, but they could very well have pulled out if they wanted to because of failure to abide by the agreement between IGN and PPSL.
As was said in Lo3, we don't even know if the event venue was paid, and who else and how much still needed to paid. Don't tell me a corporation like IGN would simply just say o 12k, no biggie. Then suddenly oh so now its 15k, chump change. Then 20k.. hmm.. let me think about it a bit, sure! That's not how you run a company Sars.
Also, if you think about it thoroughly, IGN shouldn't cover anything beyond 7k because it would set a bad precedent for other events that might "fail". They future might look back on this and say IGN did this and that for PPSL why didn't they do it for (future failed event here).
I hope that gives you a better understanding of the situation. I did watch the stream for a few hours the first day. EVERYTHING said IGN on it. The stage, the booths, the stream itself. As someone else said, many of the notable players probably would not have shown up if it weren't an IPL qualifier. I understand how commendable the effort to expanding esports globally is, and how big a risk it was. But thats exactly it. It was a RISK. If you put your brand on a product that openly, and openly connect it to the rest of your products, I don't see how you can't feel compelled to uphold the quality of your brand name. I already said, it maybe harder budget wise for them to do it than I was presenting it, but as I said, if all the people clamoring to donate money to the cause were instead to pledge to spend it with IGN, it would create a safer, more unified way of taking care of the people who were wronged, and creating a stronger position to go after Gus. The only precedent I see this setting is that, as they have already said, in the future, they are going to be less trusting, and more thorough in choosing what events to sponsor and support. The chances of IGN/IPL backing an event that is poorly run again in the future I would guess to be basically nil.
Going by the logic of RISK, you can always cut your losses which IGN is not doing but they are already putting themselves out there.
Anyway, when IGN pulled out from the event after day1's fiasco, you couldn't really expect anyone to strip of the IGN stickers, especially from the booths when there were other pressing matters at hand.
I actually don't agree with the donation because it is again another bad precedent. If you continue with that direction of the community helping wronged e-sport individuals in events, what's to stop the next one?
What I mean is like the case of Amanda. We are still unsure of how the situation came about but it may very well that she was the SOLE guarantor for the payment of tickets and she may/could have issued dated checks to the agency expecting them to clear (it was the only reason I could think of where she would be jailed through the case of ESTAFA). So she put too much trust in Gus and now has no resort but to ask help from the community. Say she is bailed out by the community. What happens to the next victim who also didn't think everything through and put all the risk on themselves?
If you also look back at all the posts as to how Clive ended up with the hotel bill, Gus told Clive he didn't have a credit card? REALLY? How can you own a Blackberry and a Macbook Pro and organize an event without a single f-ing credit card to your name?
I am not saying Gus scammed all these people but what I am saying and I think most would agree is Gus is smart enough to avoid as much responsibility to his name/person as much as possible, especially when it comes to payments but he wasn't smart/good enough to plan/manage/operate/study the PPSL. He f-cked up. But he didn't just f-ck up, He F-CKED UP BIG and he is dragging people down with him.
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On November 10 2011 12:57 17Sphynx17 wrote: I'm sorry Sars but I find that analogy still hard to swallow.
First of your analogy of the NFL, you talk of a corporation suddenly disappearing, a reputable corporation or group. It's not a reality that would happen so I scratch that off the list.
EDIT: Oh and in the event that it did happen, what would happen is Giants would go to bankruptcy court, all their assets would be liquidated to pay for whatever dues. I still don't see NFL ponying up the cash for the Giants though in whatever scenario you want to put it.
Second scenario, Mcdonalds goes out and says this is an isolated incident with a rogue employee. All is well. Cmon Sars, you are talking about a single franchise of Mcdonalds. It's different if every single one of their chains does it.
And it is the PPSL not the IPL ok? the brand was PPSL that counted as a qualifier. MLG has a qualifier for Code S Spots for GSL right? does that mean MLG and GSL are one and the same? It doesn't Sars, it never did.
So what you want to happen is a fairy tale.
How about HonSlaught, are you saying S2 games should also go forth and run an event to have it happen because they were a legitimate sponsor and shell out another 2k usd that went missing the first time?
I don't disagree with you that the NFL would be able to chase down the Giants in a realistic scenario. However, in the Philippines, in this case, that may not happen, which is why I carry out the rest of the scenario.
If you seriously think that all McDonalds would have to say is that it was one rogue restaurant, and all would be forgiven, you are delusional. If the owner of that individual chain disappeared and could not be found (again, not realistic, but its what we're facing in reality now), Mcdonalds would definately have to answer for the damages caused.
The Honslaught event didn't happen, which is its own problem, but S2 didn't declare it a regional event for its bigger league. And while they themselves are out 2k, no team was declared a winner. Afaik, no teams paid entry fees. So, its a different situation, and people in general were not hurt even close to as badly.
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Transparency is always good. Thanks n keep it up!
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On November 10 2011 13:11 _Depression wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:05 turdburgler wrote: what really makes me sad is that these guys came up to ipl and for whatever reason ipl decided to give them a shot. they saw a bunch of guys who wanted to make something happen in a developing scene and ipl ran with it. those guys let ipl down big time, and now i dont see ipl doing that again. it was probably naive to think some people who approach you with no previous experience could pull off anything decent (ignoring the downright illegality of some of the things gus has done) but it makes me kinda feel good about ipl and our community to know that they were willing to give it a try.
if it had been a success maybe ipl would be looking to run more events and cups where they could take a hands off approach. offering a spot at a major ipl event along with the prize would draw attention to less hyped events and who knows how things could of gone from there. a real community project to bring content out with minimal backing from ipl to keep it exciting.
but now i dont see that happening. i dont see ipl taking that risk again and that makes me sad. so if alex is reading this thread id love to hear that they havent given up on backing smaller producers. grass roots stuff is always the secret to success and growth but not many people have the capital to sit back while the grass grows. ign has that capital, right now they are the only ones who could fund anything like that in a meaningful way. If you read IPL's Follow-Up message at all, IPL actually went to PPSL. When they found out PPSL had hired Tastosis and were planning to bring in some big-name players, they made a deal with PPSL to change the date of their event, in exchange for IPL's sponsorship of the event.
alex said somewhere that they were approached at either ipl3 or blizzcon (i forget which exactly) by team azk about the event
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On November 10 2011 13:11 17Sphynx17 wrote: Going by the logic of RISK, you can always cut your losses which IGN is not doing but they are already putting themselves out there.
I actually don't agree with the donation because it is again another bad precedent. If you continue with that direction of the community helping wronged e-sport individuals in events, what's to stop the next one?
What I mean is like the case of Amanda. We are still unsure of how the situation came about but it may very well that she was the SOLE guarantor for the payment of tickets and she may/could have issued dated checks to the agency expecting them to clear (it was the only reason I could think of where she would be jailed through the case of ESTAFA). So she put too much trust in Gus and now has no resort but to ask help from the community. Say she is bailed out by the community. What happens to the next victim who also didn't think everything through and put all the risk on themselves?
I agree that IGN could have been huge dicks, and just not committed to the qualifier, or the remaining 7k, but people would have criticized them heavily for that. They know it. The IPL as a whole is an investment into esports. Any investment involves some risk. I just feel that even though this investment turned somewhat poor, they could stand to improve on the overall investment by putting more than what they had anticipated needing to.
I find it hard to blame amanda or anyone else for putting themselves out there a little because they believed that growing esports was worthwhile, and granted, we don't understand 100% of the situation, but I think its been established that this Gus guy swindled a lot of people by dropping a lot of reputable names. I'm pretty sympathetic to ALL those harmed by his actions, including IGN and the other sponsors, but we're talking about a person possibly losing not just a substantial amount of money, but probably her job, if not also jail time, as opposed to a company getting a loss on an investment. (Again, maybe I'm looking at IGN/IPL as something bigger than they are, but I dunnno).
But who knows. Maybe this Gus guy is freaking Kaiser Soze, and this whole thing is a huge scheme and by reimburing people, we're just doubling what he's going to steal.
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I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
I absolutely appreciate the communication IGN has with the community, I will certainly support them in their future endeavors and I absolutely think they are one of the most professional organizations in e-sports, but they made a mistake in allowing AZK and Gus Ledesma to bear the responsibility of this event and the IGN brand name, and for that they ought to be held accountable.
I hope IGN is able to take care of the financial problems that numerous people are now saddled with as a result of this event as I feel they are the most involved and most capable organization to do so here. Furthermore, I hope this is a lesson to IGN to be far more careful with whom they trust and to take a greater interest and activity for any event which they are sponsoring. By the sounds of it (for the upcoming i44 event) they are doing just that and I look forward to it.
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Should we expect stricter/more defined contracts in the future for e-sports events so that those in-charge are more accountable for these sort of things?
Its so painful to hear that the crew is taking all the flak and fire >.< Im sure as a last resort there could be a "save Amanda" event to be run by a reputable streamer to raise money for this, totally sc2 community hwaiting should it ever get to that point...
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On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote: I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed. .
I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S?
How about this scenario: your 50 year old neighbor borrows your hammer because he told you he needed to fix the roof. You let him. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action?
Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult?
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On November 10 2011 13:47 atakawow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote: I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed. . I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S? How about this scenario: you let your 50 year old neighbor borrow a hammer. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action? Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult?
No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so?
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Thank you for cooperating, IGN, and Gus is still an asshole.
*sigh* I usually do a blog on posts that multiply by 50. Quick everyone pretend that this post is my 401st post!
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IGN has been my favorite league for some time. Its the only one that's still free. Glad you guys exist!
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote: I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed.
I absolutely appreciate the communication IGN has with the community, I will certainly support them in their future endeavors and I absolutely think they are one of the most professional organizations in e-sports, but they made a mistake in allowing AZK and Gus Ledesma to bear the responsibility of this event and the IGN brand name, and for that they ought to be held accountable.
I hope IGN is able to take care of the financial problems that numerous people are now saddled with as a result of this event as I feel they are the most involved and most capable organization to do so here. Furthermore, I hope this is a lesson to IGN to be far more careful with whom they trust and to take a greater interest and activity for any event which they are sponsoring. By the sounds of it (for the upcoming i44 event) they are doing just that and I look forward to it.
From what I understand from all of this everything was already planned/slated to go even before IPL came in because IPL found out that Korean Programers were coming and that Tastosis was going to cast the event.
In this case though for IPL they came in to support/sponsor, never to lead/take charge. That is why they could pull the plug of the support line when they saw the fiasco that was day 1. I wouldn't liken it to car keys being given to a kid but rather like a sponsor in past for Tiger Woods. He f-cked up, they pulled out.
If we as individuals then expect from all sponsors to come forward in cases like these, it would actually place more responsibility on the sponsors. Why? If the events organizer fails to deliver and bails, then the sponsor is then immediately expected to shoulder the responsibility? Who would then sponsor any event if that were the case? Sponsors are their to help and contribute, but never to take full responsibility in the event of failure on the part of the person/event/organization sponsored.
CSN came in and continued the event to help, are we then expecting CSN to pony up some ad revenue they gained with the 10k viewers they had on Day 2 of PPSL? These guys are trying to help but we shouldn't be expecting these guys to take responsibility when someone else doesn't.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:47 atakawow wrote:On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote: I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed. . I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S? How about this scenario: you let your 50 year old neighbor borrow a hammer. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action? Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult? No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so?
Um, Gus is not a minor that is why you expect him to act like an adult and be responsible.
Second, he was never given responsibility to organize the event. He had already supposedly planned for and was working on the event even before IPL came in. Have you watched "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold"? Gus is essentially the guy that sold himself and the PPSL event to prospective sponsors and the sponsors saw potential in the planned event so they helped him get it further off the ground. He basically pitched them the PPSL, it's that, simply that.
PPSL had potential to be a really good event like PGF and adding IPL to the mix made it even a bigger thing but let's not point the responsibility towards IPL, they are just a sponsor. Emphasis on sponsor. Would you be mad at twitchtv for showing a travesty of a stream because they let such crap quality vids get through their servers? NO I say. It doesn't and has never worked like that.
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17Sphynx17
I agree with your basic point. However, I feel that the PPSL, namely the big names, tastosis, MKP, the rest, were all ideas by Gus, not something that was already arranged. I believe IGN's sponsorship of the PPSL is what attracted these big names to agree to coming (because they trust the IGN/IPL brand name). Without the IGN backing I don't believe that this event would have been remotely this size. Therefore I believe IGN should bear some blame of what has happened.
Obviously this does not remove any blame from Gus for his complete mismanagement of the event.
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On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so?
On November 10 2011 08:51 Alex.IGN wrote:1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a sponsor of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else.
IGN did not enable this event. It was already planned to have Tastosis and Korean players. IGN became a sponsor. People in other threads have said that there are other sponsors as well (I haven't checked, so I don't know who / how much they gave, although S2 gave $2k for the HoN tourny apparently). The fact that you're trying to blame IGN for any of this is pretty ridiculous imo.
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Gus is 30-40 years old. That's why we all find it flabbergasting that he could cause such a ruckus.
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Awesome response by IPL on the issue. Hope that the UK event not only goes well but blows all expectations out of the water.
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On November 10 2011 13:58 17Sphynx17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:47 atakawow wrote:On November 10 2011 13:41 Pantagruel wrote: I very much agree with SarsFlu here.
I feel that IGN is very much responsible for this event. The PPSL would never have been able to host an event of this size without the backing and the funds of IGN and would never have been able to attract the players, casters and other participants of this event. As someone else in another thread mentioned, if you give a kid the keys to your car and he runs over 5 people, you too will be responsible for the outcome. If this event had been successful you can bet that IGN would have garnered all the praise, and thusly they must also bear the criticisms now that it has failed. . I laughed at that comment. Really? Do you even have a slight clue about the legal system here in the U.S? How about this scenario: you let your 50 year old neighbor borrow a hammer. He then uses the hammer to kill his wife. Should you be held accountable for his action? Can you see the difference between the two scenarios? One is a minor, the other is a fully grown adult? Now, is Gus a minor or an adult? No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so? Um, Gus is not a minor that is why you expect him to act like an adult and be responsible. Second, he was never given responsibility to organize the event. He had already supposedly planned for and was working on the event even before IPL came in. Have you watched "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold"? Gus is essentially the guy that sold himself and the PPSL event to prospective sponsors and the sponsors saw potential in the planned event so they helped him get it further off the ground. He basically pitched them the PPSL, it's that, simply that. PPSL had potential to be a really good event like PGF and adding IPL to the mix made it even a bigger thing but let's not point the responsibility towards IPL, they are just a sponsor. Emphasis on sponsor. Would you be mad at twitchtv for showing a travesty of a stream because they let such crap quality vids get through their servers? NO I say. It doesn't and has never worked like that.
Perhaps the analogy doesn't entirely work but I think people can understand the meaning. If you give someone a lot of responsibility and they clearly have no means to bear it then I do believe you ought to be held accountable. I believe that this event only got off the ground because IGN sponsored it. IGN should have kept an eye on their investment and the people responsible for it; clearly they didnt. Now a lot of people have been harmed and IGN can't just wipe their hands of it. They were integral in making this event a possibility, thats why they are now working hard to try and fix many of the problems that have arisen.
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IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
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On November 10 2011 14:02 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 13:50 Pantagruel wrote:No, since your neighbor is not a minor. Gus is essentially a minor here. He has no experience in live events and thus is unable to properly organize it. Who are you going to blame, the man who was given the responsibility to organize the event or the ones who gave him the means to do so? Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:51 Alex.IGN wrote:1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a sponsor of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. IGN did not enable this event. It was already planned to have Tastosis and Korean players. IGN became a sponsor. People in other threads have said that there are other sponsors as well (I haven't checked, so I don't know who / how much they gave, although S2 gave $2k for the HoN tourny apparently). The fact that you're trying to blame IGN for any of this is pretty ridiculous imo.
I certainly don't mean to blame IGN for this event, they didnt organize it. That doesnt mean they shouldn't bear some responsibility for it as a major sponsor for it (which more then likely enabled this event to commence). I guess the difference in opinion here is that you believe that Gus and AZK would have actually been able to organize this tournament without the brand name and funds from IGN, and I don't. Gus can talk all he wants about tastosis and any number of high profile players but would you think any of them would have come without IGN backing Gus?
As far as we know he presented his plan to David Ting at IPL3, and that tastosis was coming and so and so was coming, but I'd eat my hat before I believe that all those people were already lined up to come before IGN backed em.
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Thank you for this it give a lot of vision and understanding!
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On November 10 2011 14:10 17Sphynx17 wrote: IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
I guess that's where we differ in opinion then. I feel companies who sponsor an event with their brand name and money are partly responsible for the outcome of the event. Basically you are giving your money to an untrustworthy individual who with it, did a lot of harm to a number of people. Your failure in judgement helped allow this to happen. I don't place all blame on IGN, I just feel like they can't walk away from this scott free either, and they aren't. I just don't feel its right that all the vitriol and blame is directed at one individual and that IGN is being praised for this event. IGN's poor judgement has contributed to this situation as well and that should be recognized.
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On November 10 2011 14:24 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:10 17Sphynx17 wrote: IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
IGN's poor judgement has contributed to this situation as well and that should be recognized. I think they recognized it themselves already, since they already threw out statements starting day2. The major concern now is that a majority of the money is missing, people are borderline being screwed to shit, and does ign throw out the money immediately (saving people) or holding firm (for the responsible party aka gus) to at least comment on ANYTHING at the moment.
Should ign throw a statement right after the event, sorry it was bad, we will take care of all effected parties involved, you just let gus run away with all the money scott free..
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 14:24 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:10 17Sphynx17 wrote: IGN and Twitchtv sent guys to help.
If you look at it from a big picture scenario, there was no one really who has done such an event, other than Mineski for PGF of this scale for SC2. As such you could say majority are minors. IGN and Twitchtv gave training wheels to these "minors" to help them get this event running properly but what happened was they had to actually RUN the event and not just help.
So again, we should not expect Sponsors to take responsibility every time an event fails miserably. They sponsored the event to help the "vision" come true and help it. HELP and NOT SHOULDER RESPONSIBILITY.
I guess that's where we differ in opinion then. I feel companies who sponsor an event with their brand name and money are partly responsible for the outcome of the event. Basically you are giving your money to an untrustworthy individual who with it, did a lot of harm to a number of people. Your failure in judgement helped allow this to happen. I don't place all blame on IGN, I just feel like they can't walk away from this scott free either, and they aren't. I just don't feel its right that all the vitriol and blame is directed at one individual and that IGN is being praised for this event. IGN's poor judgement has contributed to this situation as well and that should be recognized.
We can agree to have differing opinions about this but here's my followup on it. What if we took out IGN from the equation and simply went with the other sponsors for this event. It was still technically a sponsored event. Razer, Nvidia, Palit, Globe, Cougar, Connexys, Chimei, Western Digital, EMAXX. See http://ppsl.tv/ for the list of sponsors on the poster other than twitch.tv and IGN.
Assuming we took out IGN and twitch.tv who is then supposed to be the next in line to take responsibility among the sponsors? If you can also see the writing it was "powered" by PPSL and Team AZK. Never was it mentioned that it was "powered" by IPL.
EDIT: We should be fair and equal to the sponsors as well in how we view and treat them. You may be just pointing our finger at IPL to take responsibility because they run similar events/games. Globe was the ISP provider should we also call them out on the bandwidth? We never knew what the agreement was. The specs of the PCs of some of the gaming rigs were never up to par, should we also blame the sponsors who supplied them as well and have them take responsibility? Also, sponsors don't necessarily give out cash, some of them lend/give equipment for use and prizes for the event. Just because IPL/IGN is the company that has a promised sum of money to the event, does that make them financially liable for the event's shortfalls?
So the next in line to take respnsibility for me for PPSL is not IPL/IGN but rather team AZK. They may go bankrupt, but they are the partners in this not IGN.
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Thank you for not giving up on supporting the Filipino SC2 esports scene!
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17Sphynx17
I suspect if you take IGN out of the equation there would be no funds left and thusly no event. Yes there are a number of other sponsors but I strongly suspect they didnt actually provide any money to run the event, or very little. I guess nobody really knows what the finances were for this event save for what IGN provided.
SnackySnacks
I doubt Gus has any money. I don't think he's an elaborate scam artist, I think he's just a dude who tried to pimp his team and claim glory for a big time event who was way over his head. Because he has no experience in management he badly misjudged (or didnt judge at all) the finances required to run the event. If he really wanted to pocket the money and run he woulda done so right off the bat and the prize money wouldn't have been paid, he wouldn't have contacted TGR at the hotel at all and he woulda been gone. Thats not the case. Gus should be held accountable. Unfortunately, I suspect there is little he can do financially to help all the people he is now indebted to. I imagine if IGN does not help in this respect no one will.
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IGN already had their brand tarnished for their association with AZK and PPSL.
As far as responsibility goes, that's what they're accountable for. The reliability that they can make good decisions to which organizations they give their resources to.
Pantagruel, you seem to not realize what sponsorship entails a sponsor if you think IGN is walking away from this scratch free. Ever heard of the saying a "person is as good as the company he keeps"? The same applies to businesses, if a company ran around sponsoring events that turn into gigantic clusterfucks, that a huge black mark on them, that means the manage is unable to properly utilize their resources and have a poor sense of judgement.
Of course the smudge on IGN's name is nowhere near as bad as that, still the damage to their name has already been done. I mean do you think that in the relatively blooming industry that is eSports, having something like that mess the PPSL shat out associated with your company's name isn't damaging at all?
IGN is responsible for making good decisions, they messed up and fessed up. The guy in charge admitted that he went against better judgement and advice from his own team. He could have been a douche and said "Hey don't blame me for pouring $14k into a mismanaged event, how could I know that this Gus guy was a moron?" Instead he took responsibility for the poor decision and the effect it had on IGN's brand.
If IGN goes beyond the terms of their contract and provides extra help, that's cool. That'd be down right awesome. But they are in no way supposed to do that. That'll be charity and good will on their part. Not something they need to do because they're responsible for the crap that went on.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 14:49 Pantagruel wrote: 17Sphynx17
I suspect if you take IGN out of the equation there would be no funds left and thusly no event. Yes there are a number of other sponsors but I strongly suspect they didnt actually provide any money to run the event, or very little. I guess nobody really knows what the finances were for this event save for what IGN provided.
SnackySnacks
I doubt Gus has any money. I don't think he's an elaborate scam artist, I think he's just a dude who tried to pimp his team and claim glory for a big time event who was way over his head. Because he has no experience in management he badly misjudged (or didnt judge at all) the finances required to run the event. If he really wanted to pocket the money and run he woulda done so right off the bat and the prize money wouldn't have been paid, he wouldn't have contacted TGR at the hotel at all and he woulda been gone. Thats not the case. Gus should be held accountable. Unfortunately, I suspect there is little he can do financially to help all the people he is now indebted to. I imagine if IGN does not help in this respect no one will.
Yup, I agree. We don't have the "books" for the PPSL and all the agreements verbal or written between all parties to Team AZK/Gus.
As for what he can do, someone from sc2sea and the other Gus/PPSL thread has said. He should really take out a loan to pay for the others he aggrevated/needs to pay.
I said this before in a post but here in the philippines you could take out a Cash Advance check from your credit card based on the remaining available balance to your credit limit. I doubt Gus doesn't have a credit card and let alone just 1. He uses that to pay off the most immediate expense, Amanda's air ticket and it's his job to find a way to pay it off.
I think it would be to his best interest to do so and he could ask IGN for the 7k usd agreed upon once confirmation of clearing of the payment from the airfare tickets has been confirmed.
As for the other matters/expenses, well it's their job to pay for them. Team AZK and Gus and no one else's. They headed the event and they are supposed to pay for it. If they go bankrupt paying off debts, I'm sorry to say but it has always been a business when they thought of running/organizing the PPSL. Other than exposure, they were trying to make a profit.
I don't think it was a scam to begin with. It was judge poorly managed, poorly prioritized expenses and a lot of promises that he(they) never had the capacity to pay for. Team Cube went on record to say that they checked tickets on the last minute but it would cost them 25k php for them to purchase for their players. If gus paid for it earlier, they could've been booked promo flights.
Also, savings for the hotel bookings could have been made if they bought online (in certain cases) but that would mean "pre-paying" for them which they didn't consider to lower costs because everything seemed to be post paid.
I am from the Philippines and I know you can do these things to save on costs.
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On November 10 2011 15:00 rengarr wrote: IGN already had their brand tarnished for their association with AZK and PPSL.
As far as responsibility goes, that's what they're accountable for. The reliability that they can make good decisions to which organizations they give their resources to.
Pantagruel, you seem to not realize what sponsorship entails a sponsor if you think IGN is walking away from this scratch free. Ever heard of the saying a "person is as good as the company he keeps"? The same applies to businesses, if a company ran around sponsoring events that turn into gigantic clusterfucks, that a huge black mark on them, that means the manage is unable to properly utilize their resources and have a poor sense of judgement.
Of course the smudge on IGN's name is nowhere near as bad as that, still the damage to their name has already been done. I mean do you think that in the relatively blooming industry that is eSports, having something like that mess the PPSL shat out associated with your company's name isn't damaging at all?
IGN is responsible for making good decisions, they messed up and fessed up. The guy in charge admitted that he went against better judgement and advice from his own team. He could have been a douche and said "Hey don't blame me for pouring $14k into a mismanaged event, how could I know that this Gus guy was a moron?" Instead he took responsibility for the poor decision and the effect it had on IGN's brand.
If IGN goes beyond the terms of their contract and provides extra help, that's cool. That'd be down right awesome. But they are in no way supposed to do that. That'll be charity and good will on their part. Not something they need to do because they're responsible for the crap that went on.
I agree with you completely. IGN does have a smudge on their name as a consequence of this event, and that clearly shows that they bear some responsibility for this event. I also agree that they have taken responsibility for that, as has been shown in this statement, as well as the previous one. What I am arguing against is simply the fact that the only one who is being blamed is Gus Ledesma, and unfortunately it goes beyond him. I don't think IGN should receive praise from the community for this event, which they are by many members on this forum. I just hope people realize the poor judgement of IGN helped create this situation and that something like this won't happen again.
IGN, of course, is not required to clean up the mess that has been created, but who else will do it? If no one does it and a number of people lose their jobs or are never paid for their services it will look even worse for IGN who made such an event possible. Therefore I imagine it will be IGN who ends up cleaning up.
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Thank you so much for not giving up on us. And thank you to the foreigners for most likely relaying the info to you that our scene and community here is awesome! Thank you Justin for coming home and doing so much for the motherland!
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I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
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Because the incident people are talking about is Gus's mishandling of the event. They're not talking about IGN not having the better judgement in putting their trust in scumbags like Gus. IGN already addressed that by admitting that they did.
And I think IGN, and Alex in particular is worthy of praise. I've had the displeasure of working under a manager before who was responsible for a huge delay in a project we were working on, his first reaction when the higher ups asked for an explanation was to start pointing fingers at everyone except himself
Alex and IGN did the right thing, and that's what they are being praised for. If Gus, instead of going into hiding or whatever shit he's pulling out of that ass that serves as his mouth lately, were to step up and really talk about what happened instead of some flimsy worded apology where he's clearly avoiding most of the blame and spends half the post patting himself on the back, then maybe he'd be viewed with a less harsher light.
Or in short, Alex has the balls to man up to what he did wrong. Gus on the other hand seems to have misplaced his along with his mic.
Edit: From what I see, IGN, in exchange for them giving the PPSL $14K as part of a sponsorship deal, was allowed to have the IP4 qualifiers held at the PPSL's event. The PPSL just took advantage of the whole thing and decided to have their entire revolve around it.
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On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote: I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
So what do you determine is "some responsibility"? So far, they have taken steps to look at how to redistribute the remaining $7,000 so that it would help the situation. That, as far as I'm concerned, is taking responsibility. If you think they should just throw additional money into the situation, that is not their responsibility.
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On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote: I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN.
Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend.
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Dear IPL.
Your organisation is full of scholars and gentlemen,
Much more then i could say about Gus.
Thank you.
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On November 10 2011 15:49 rengarr wrote: Because the incident people are talking about is Gus's mishandling of the event. They're not talking about IGN not having the better judgement in putting their trust in scumbags like Gus. IGN already addressed that by admitting that they did.
And I think IGN, and Alex in particular is worthy of praise. I've had the displeasure of working under a manager before who was responsible for a huge delay in a project we were working on, his first reaction when the higher ups asked for an explanation was to start pointing fingers at everyone except himself
Alex and IGN did the right thing, and that's what they are being praised for. If Gus, instead of going into hiding or whatever shit he's pulling out of that ass that serves as his mouth lately, were to step up and really talk about what happened instead of some flimsy worded apology where he's clearly avoiding most of the blame and spends half the post patting himself on the back, then maybe he'd be viewed with a less harsher light.
Or in short, Alex has the balls to man up to what he did wrong. Gus on the other hand seems to have misplaced his along with his mic.
Edit: From what I see, IGN, in exchange for them giving the PPSL $14K as part of a sponsorship deal, was allowed to have the IP4 qualifiers held at the PPSL's event. The PPSL just took advantage of the whole thing and decided to have their entire revolve around it.
Fair enough. I definitely agree that Gus took advantage of everything and tried to push his team into the spotlight as well as himself, which can be seen by his dishonest actions in regards to YoonYJ, team Cube, the moonglade incident and the constant obnoxious name dropping seen in testimonials from various member of the community.
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thanks IGN/IPL for organising/sponsoring public events and clearing out to the community publicly
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On November 10 2011 15:53 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote: I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN. Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend.
I disagree. Without IGN a tournament of this size would never have happened. No one would trust Gus without IGN backing. Having an idea to organize a big tournament does not equate to actually making it happen. It only happened after IGN gave their support. Both are partly responsible. Obviously Gus and AZK ought to pay up but I can pretty much guarantee you they don't have the money to do so, as it was poorly spent to organize the event.
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sry wrong thread pls delete
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only thing I do wanna say is if IGN doesnt find a way to help amanda not go to jail and she goes to jail for this I no longer support them. They have 7k of the money that didnt go to gus that better go directly towards saving her.
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Well done IPL again. Transparency is a good way to earn respect from the community.
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On November 10 2011 16:13 Modeath wrote: only thing I do wanna say is if IGN doesnt find a way to help amanda not go to jail and she goes to jail for this I no longer support them. They have 7k of the money that didnt go to gus that better go directly towards saving her.
She owes 12k to her agency I believe. I have no expertise in travel agencies so I cannot say if her interactions with Gus were standard or not but it seems very naive to front someone 12,000 USD. I too however hope that this issue is resolved as quickly as possible and that no lasting damage is done to people because of an e-sports event.
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On November 10 2011 16:02 Pantagruel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 15:53 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote: I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN. Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend. I disagree. Without IGN a tournament of this size would never have happened. No one would trust Gus without IGN backing. Having an idea to organize a big tournament does not equate to actually making it happen. It only happened after IGN gave their support. Both are partly responsible. Obviously Gus and AZK ought to pay up but I can pretty much guarantee you they don't have the money to do so, as it was poorly spent to organize the event.
Ultimate responsibility for anything lies with the last person who could have made a choice and made the wrong one. IPL choose to sponsor PPSL and Gus, but Gus "choose" to screw it up. Therefore, Gus has the ultimate responsibility. If Gus weren't a screwup, none of this would have happened, and we wouldn't be having this talk.
Could IGN have ultimately done more to ensure that they were dealing with someone reasonable? Yes, and in the future, they probably will. But saying that they're the most responsible party in this or somehow bear any significant culpability is coming dangerously close to "blaming the victim" territory.
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On November 10 2011 16:27 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 16:02 Pantagruel wrote:On November 10 2011 15:53 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On November 10 2011 15:40 Pantagruel wrote: I think perhaps I need to clarify what i'm thinking a little bit more.
I look at IGN more then just a sponsor in this situation. They paid for this event. This event was a direct consequence of IGN funding. Because of that I feel they bear some responsibility of everything that happened because I feel none of it was possible without IGN.
When Nike sponsors Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whoever, they give them money for personal use in exchange for exposure of their brand name to the public. IGN did more then that. They gave money to AZK to host an event for them, namely the "IGN Pro League Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers". Their money was directly used to create this event. IGN bears responsibility for how their money is used in this case because they are directly involved in this event and directly benefit or suffer.
This tournament was going to happen with or without IGN, IGN just offered to sponsor it in exchange for making it also considered an IPL qualifier. IGN probably should have looked a bit more into AZN's shady background, but unless they were contractually obligated to do so, specific decisions Gus made with the money he accepted are not IGN's fault. Its a hard lesson learned for IGN, but if anyone is going to pay up it ought to be AZN more so then IGN. Its like one guys offers another guy $1000 to make a party better, but then that guy goes and signs a popular band for $200,000 assuming hes going to make a boat load of cash anyway, then proceeds to not make the money or provide much of a party. The first guy can't be blamed for second dudes on the spot call to spend spend spend. I disagree. Without IGN a tournament of this size would never have happened. No one would trust Gus without IGN backing. Having an idea to organize a big tournament does not equate to actually making it happen. It only happened after IGN gave their support. Both are partly responsible. Obviously Gus and AZK ought to pay up but I can pretty much guarantee you they don't have the money to do so, as it was poorly spent to organize the event. Ultimate responsibility for anything lies with the last person who could have made a choice and made the wrong one. IPL choose to sponsor PPSL and Gus, but Gus "choose" to screw it up. Therefore, Gus has the ultimate responsibility. If Gus weren't a screwup, none of this would have happened, and we wouldn't be having this talk. Could IGN have ultimately done more to ensure that they were dealing with someone reasonable? Yes, and in the future, they probably will. But saying that they're the most responsible party in this or somehow bear any significant culpability is coming dangerously close to "blaming the victim" territory.
Oh I certainly don't think IGN is the most responsible party. Just that they can't completely abscond of blame. Naturally Gus is the most responsible party as the manager of the organization that was expected to lead this event. All i'm saying is that IGN 'should' have done more to ensure they were dealing with a trustworthy individual, and I imagine they will do so in the future.
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On November 10 2011 12:03 SarsFlu wrote: While I appreciate the candor and openness that IGN is showing, I don't feel a "We apologize and we'll still live up to our agreement" is enough in some regards. IGN not only sponsored the event, but made it an IPL Qualifier. To me that means some level of responsibility for problems at the event should be shouldered by IGN.
The one thing that screwed this up most over any other problems is GUS! IGN has already apologized for not researching into his arrogant ways and allowing him to "host" it. The AZK/PPSL staff and other people like TheGunrun really pulled together and gave a decent showing. The blame and the shame should land on Gus's head alone.
Gus is the one who put up a crappy 'apology', who promised to be on Live on Three to clear the air and then DIDN'T show up! Apparently some other AZK guy bragged that they had an MacBook and a iPhone so they'll for sure be able to join the show. He had numerous times to put things to rest but instead he runs away like a guilty man.
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IGN did make a mistake in choosing who to sponsor but as you can see, they are taking responsibility for this, Alex himself said so in his first apology.
I can only imagine Gus must have presented himself as a seriously legit operation. Reminds me of this thing i read on facebook:
+ Show Spoiler +Dad: I want u 2 marry a girl of my choice. Son: No Dad: The girl is Bill Gates' daughter. Son: Then ok
Dad goes 2 Bill Gates Dad: I want ur daughter 2 marry my son. Bill Gates: No Dad: My son is d CEO of the World Bank. Bill Gates: Then ok
Dad goes 2 the President of the World Bank.. Dad: Apoint my son as the CEO of ur bank. President:No! Dad: He is the son-in-law of Bill Gates. President:Then ok! This is BUSINESS...
Just swap the Son for IGN, BIll Gates' Daughter for Tastosisl and the President of World Bank for the Korean pros he shipped over.
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Thanks IPL! I will continue to watch because you guys have awesome events, and if you guys do a local event in the Philippines, we will bring the crowd and the noise!
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IGN is responsible.
When you associate your name to an event, you are more than just a sponsor. IGN lent their reputation. Let's be honest, it is doubtful that this would have reached such proportions without the name of the IPL. I'm sure many people got involved because they thought they were dealing with IGN, a serious compagny.
For instance, I don't think tastosis would have accepted to cast the event if it weren't an IPL event. People would probably have thought twice before paying for the hotel etc...
That being said, IGN remains the best compagny in the SC2 esport scene, and they should be praise for the transparency.
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It's a really good thing you are trying to do with these regional qualifiers, just a shame this didn't work out. Can't wait for the UK qualifier though, will hopefully be making it in person!
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On November 10 2011 20:25 Elean wrote: IGN is responsible.
When you associate your name to an event, you are more than just a sponsor. IGN lent their reputation. Let's be honest, it is doubtful that this would have reached such proportions without the name of the IPL. I'm sure many people got involved because they thought they were dealing with IGN, a serious compagny.
For instance, I don't think tastosis would have accepted to cast the event if it weren't an IPL event. People would probably have thought twice before paying for the hotel etc...
That being said, IGN remains the best compagny in the SC2 esport scene, and they should be praise for the transparency.
That is not the impression I got from reading what Alex.IGN said in the OP. It sounded like IPL came after people like tastosis had already been confirmed to come.
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I do hope that the remaining 7k$ will be used to help those left in debt by Gus.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2011 20:25 Elean wrote: IGN is responsible.
When you associate your name to an event, you are more than just a sponsor. IGN lent their reputation. Let's be honest, it is doubtful that this would have reached such proportions without the name of the IPL. I'm sure many people got involved because they thought they were dealing with IGN, a serious compagny.
For instance, I don't think tastosis would have accepted to cast the event if it weren't an IPL event. People would probably have thought twice before paying for the hotel etc...
That being said, IGN remains the best compagny in the SC2 esport scene, and they should be praise for the transparency.
I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else.
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On November 10 2011 22:24 17Sphynx17 wrote: I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else.
I know by now that we're just going to agree to disagree on this, but I don't see how you can say that IGN/IPL was just a sponsor. Nvidia and Razer were just sponsors. They just donated product/money (maybe not money, we aren't clear on that) to promote their product.
This screencap posted by peonsanders on reddit says it to me. This was an IPL SANCTIONED event. Not just sponsored. If you are a legitimate, international esports organization, and you make an event a qualifier for your main tournament, guess what? You have made that event a part of your tournament. It now carries your name.
If you had no say in the production or execution of this event, then it is your fault for not demanding and insuring that the standards you expect were not set beforehand. It is very clear that Gus and AZK CAUSED all the problems, one way or another, but a company like IPL should not have agreed to make an event an IPL qualifier solely on vague promises that the event would be taken care of.
Still, IPL and all the other sponsors don't 'owe' anything more than they originally agreed to. Its hard to blame them if that is all they do. But they 'could' do more, and I'm just putting it out there that it would be really awesome if they did.
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On November 10 2011 23:48 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:24 17Sphynx17 wrote: I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. I know by now that we're just going to agree to disagree on this, but I don't see how you can say that IGN/IPL was just a sponsor. Nvidia and Razer were just sponsors. They just donated product/money (maybe not money, we aren't clear on that) to promote their product. This screencap posted by peonsanders on reddit says it to me. This was an IPL SANCTIONED event. Not just sponsored. If you are a legitimate, international esports organization, and you make an event a qualifier for your main tournament, guess what? You have made that event a part of your tournament. It now carries your name. If you had no say in the production or execution of this event, then it is your fault for not demanding and insuring that the standards you expect were not set beforehand. It is very clear that Gus and AZK CAUSED all the problems, one way or another, but a company like IPL should not have agreed to make an event an IPL qualifier solely on vague promises that the event would be taken care of. Still, IPL and all the other sponsors don't 'owe' anything more than they originally agreed to. Its hard to blame them if that is all they do. But they 'could' do more, and I'm just putting it out there that it would be really awesome if they did.
This is a fair argument, especially when you consider what Alex probably had to tell others in order to convince them that all of this was a good idea. As a business, I dont think IPL was convinced of doing this for the sole purpose of promoting Philippine esports as was mentioned in the OP, that was just Alex. It would be rational to assume that the main intentions for IPL (as a business) was that this was a cheaper way of advertising in the SEA scene. As a result, IPL would have killed two birds with one stone, but didn't oversee things every step of the way. It was a really smart idea if you ask me, but if IPL/IGN was going to plaster it's name all over the event they really should have taken a bit more responsibility.
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This conversation about responsibility is absolutely hilarious. IGN is bound, of course, by it's contract w/ whatever entity they signed it with (AZK, PPSL, Gus, Amanda, or whoever). That said, they are absolutely free to simply walk away.
To bring up the old football analogy: Gatorade isn't responsible for anything if the NFL collapses, nor are any other sponsors. Perhaps look at college bowls. Visio isn't responsible if the Rose Bowl has a problem, nor is Tostidos for the Fiesta Bowl. They may decide that it is in their best interest to act, but such an act is not required.
IGN went far in their sponsorship, providing prizes in both cash and a seed in their tournament, as well as their stream's visibility. However, that does not change anything about their role as a sponsor, or add to their requirements.
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On November 11 2011 01:37 Wren wrote: This conversation about responsibility is absolutely hilarious. IGN is bound, of course, by it's contract w/ whatever entity they signed it with (AZK, PPSL, Gus, Amanda, or whoever). That said, they are absolutely free to simply walk away.
To bring up the old football analogy: Gatorade isn't responsible for anything if the NFL collapses, nor are any other sponsors. Perhaps look at college bowls. Visio isn't responsible if the Rose Bowl has a problem, nor is Tostidos for the Fiesta Bowl. They may decide that it is in their best interest to act, but such an act is not required.
IGN went far in their sponsorship, providing prizes in both cash and a seed in their tournament, as well as their stream's visibility. However, that does not change anything about their role as a sponsor, or add to their requirements.
When IPL decided sponsored the PPSL, the name of the event changed into "The IPL4 Pacific Qualifiers, powered by the PPSL". I think that entitles them to a bit more responsibility imo.
When Gatorade decided to sponsor the NFL, was it ever rebranded as "The Gatorade Cup, powered by the NFL" or something? I dont follow the NFL very much so I wouldn't know, but if not then this analogy doesn't pertain to IPL's situation. More likely to the other sponsors of the PPSL like Globe, nVidia, etc.
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Well question then, do the other ipl4 qualifiers have another name? The event for me was the ppsl, just so happned to also grant a slot for ipl4 as a qualifier. That is a sponsorship in kind when pertainjng to the nature of it.
I still think as a sponsor, others are putting/expexting more from ign because they do these types of events but on the contray, this was powered by ppsl under azk. No where did it state that it was co-run by ign/ipl. If you thought that then you added into what was written. That is what i believe. A sponsor will remain a sponsor regardless of line of business to whatever type of event.
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On November 11 2011 02:39 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well question then, do the other ipl4 qualifiers have another name? The event for me was the ppsl, just so happned to also grant a slot for ipl4 as a qualifier. That is a sponsorship in kind when pertainjng to the nature of it.
I still think as a sponsor, others are putting/expexting more from ign because they do these types of events but on the contray, this was powered by ppsl under azk. No where did it state that it was co-run by ign/ipl. If you thought that then you added into what was written. That is what i believe. A sponsor will remain a sponsor regardless of line of business to whatever type of event.
This is the liquipedia page for the PPSL Event.
Granted, this is liquipedia and not 100% official documentation, but you look at it and tell me that all IGN did was sponsor the event. Before things went badly, EVERYONE was calling this an IPL event, not a PPSL event.
"The IGN ProLeague has partnered with Team AZK to host the IGN ProLeague 4 Pacific Region Qualifiers in Manila" is the first line printed on that page. Partnered, to hold an IGN ProLeague Qualifier. Yes, AZK was the event organizer. But was it an IPL event? I don't see how you can say no.
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On November 11 2011 02:16 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:37 Wren wrote: This conversation about responsibility is absolutely hilarious. IGN is bound, of course, by it's contract w/ whatever entity they signed it with (AZK, PPSL, Gus, Amanda, or whoever). That said, they are absolutely free to simply walk away.
To bring up the old football analogy: Gatorade isn't responsible for anything if the NFL collapses, nor are any other sponsors. Perhaps look at college bowls. Visio isn't responsible if the Rose Bowl has a problem, nor is Tostidos for the Fiesta Bowl. They may decide that it is in their best interest to act, but such an act is not required.
IGN went far in their sponsorship, providing prizes in both cash and a seed in their tournament, as well as their stream's visibility. However, that does not change anything about their role as a sponsor, or add to their requirements. When IPL decided sponsored the PPSL, the name of the event changed into "The IPL4 Pacific Qualifiers, powered by the PPSL". I think that entitles them to a bit more responsibility imo. When Gatorade decided to sponsor the NFL, was it ever rebranded as "The Gatorade Cup, powered by the NFL" or something? I dont follow the NFL very much so I wouldn't know, but if not then this analogy doesn't pertain to IPL's situation. More likely to the other sponsors of the PPSL like Globe, nVidia, etc. The bowl games feature the sponsors' names extremely prominently: "Tostidos Fiesta Bowl," "The Rose Bowl game, presented by Visio," "Chick-fil-A Bowl," etc.
Doesn't put them at any additional liability for the performance of the event.
On November 11 2011 02:56 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:39 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well question then, do the other ipl4 qualifiers have another name? The event for me was the ppsl, just so happned to also grant a slot for ipl4 as a qualifier. That is a sponsorship in kind when pertainjng to the nature of it.
I still think as a sponsor, others are putting/expexting more from ign because they do these types of events but on the contray, this was powered by ppsl under azk. No where did it state that it was co-run by ign/ipl. If you thought that then you added into what was written. That is what i believe. A sponsor will remain a sponsor regardless of line of business to whatever type of event. This is the liquipedia page for the PPSL Event.Granted, this is liquipedia and not 100% official documentation, but you look at it and tell me that all IGN did was sponsor the event. Before things went badly, EVERYONE was calling this an IPL event, not a PPSL event. "The IGN ProLeague has partnered with Team AZK to host the IGN ProLeague 4 Pacific Region Qualifiers in Manila" is the first line printed on that page. Partnered, to hold an IGN ProLeague Qualifier. Yes, AZK was the event organizer. But was it an IPL event? I don't see how you can say no. LOL, I wrote that. Follow the reference to find: "To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL, we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins." That's a sponsorship w/ a seed as a prize.
Don't forget that AZK refused to call the tournament by the name IGN gave it, SEA qualifiers, instead insisting on using words that more closely reflected the name of their league. There's absolutely no evidence that this was anything more than a sponsorship.
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On November 10 2011 23:48 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:24 17Sphynx17 wrote: I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. I know by now that we're just going to agree to disagree on this, but I don't see how you can say that IGN/IPL was just a sponsor. Nvidia and Razer were just sponsors. They just donated product/money (maybe not money, we aren't clear on that) to promote their product. This screencap posted by peonsanders on reddit says it to me. This was an IPL SANCTIONED event. Not just sponsored. If you are a legitimate, international esports organization, and you make an event a qualifier for your main tournament, guess what? You have made that event a part of your tournament. It now carries your name. If you had no say in the production or execution of this event, then it is your fault for not demanding and insuring that the standards you expect were not set beforehand. It is very clear that Gus and AZK CAUSED all the problems, one way or another, but a company like IPL should not have agreed to make an event an IPL qualifier solely on vague promises that the event would be taken care of. Still, IPL and all the other sponsors don't 'owe' anything more than they originally agreed to. Its hard to blame them if that is all they do. But they 'could' do more, and I'm just putting it out there that it would be really awesome if they did.
So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed.
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On November 11 2011 04:36 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:16 Jojo131 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:37 Wren wrote: This conversation about responsibility is absolutely hilarious. IGN is bound, of course, by it's contract w/ whatever entity they signed it with (AZK, PPSL, Gus, Amanda, or whoever). That said, they are absolutely free to simply walk away.
To bring up the old football analogy: Gatorade isn't responsible for anything if the NFL collapses, nor are any other sponsors. Perhaps look at college bowls. Visio isn't responsible if the Rose Bowl has a problem, nor is Tostidos for the Fiesta Bowl. They may decide that it is in their best interest to act, but such an act is not required.
IGN went far in their sponsorship, providing prizes in both cash and a seed in their tournament, as well as their stream's visibility. However, that does not change anything about their role as a sponsor, or add to their requirements. When IPL decided sponsored the PPSL, the name of the event changed into "The IPL4 Pacific Qualifiers, powered by the PPSL". I think that entitles them to a bit more responsibility imo. When Gatorade decided to sponsor the NFL, was it ever rebranded as "The Gatorade Cup, powered by the NFL" or something? I dont follow the NFL very much so I wouldn't know, but if not then this analogy doesn't pertain to IPL's situation. More likely to the other sponsors of the PPSL like Globe, nVidia, etc. The bowl games feature the sponsors' names extremely prominently: "Tostidos Fiesta Bowl," "The Rose Bowl game, presented by Visio," "Chick-fil-A Bowl," etc. Doesn't put them at any additional liability for the performance of the event. Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:56 SarsFlu wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well question then, do the other ipl4 qualifiers have another name? The event for me was the ppsl, just so happned to also grant a slot for ipl4 as a qualifier. That is a sponsorship in kind when pertainjng to the nature of it.
I still think as a sponsor, others are putting/expexting more from ign because they do these types of events but on the contray, this was powered by ppsl under azk. No where did it state that it was co-run by ign/ipl. If you thought that then you added into what was written. That is what i believe. A sponsor will remain a sponsor regardless of line of business to whatever type of event. This is the liquipedia page for the PPSL Event.Granted, this is liquipedia and not 100% official documentation, but you look at it and tell me that all IGN did was sponsor the event. Before things went badly, EVERYONE was calling this an IPL event, not a PPSL event. "The IGN ProLeague has partnered with Team AZK to host the IGN ProLeague 4 Pacific Region Qualifiers in Manila" is the first line printed on that page. Partnered, to hold an IGN ProLeague Qualifier. Yes, AZK was the event organizer. But was it an IPL event? I don't see how you can say no. LOL, I wrote that. Follow the reference to find: "To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL, we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins." That's a sponsorship w/ a seed as a prize. Don't forget that AZK refused to call the tournament by the name IGN gave it, SEA qualifiers, instead insisting on using words that more closely reflected the name of their league. There's absolutely no evidence that this was anything more than a sponsorship.
Its funny you bring up the college football bowl system. Currently there are dozens of bowl games, and all of them have various sponsors like in your example. However, only six of those bowl games are official BCS bowl games, sanctioned by Division 1 College Football to determine its champion. All those other bowl games, while they are bowl games, don't mean as much, and don't make as much money.
Likewise, there are dozens of various SC2 tournaments across the world, most of them small because they're not an IPL, MLG, GSL etc. It just so happened that IPL decided to sanction this PPSL event as an IPL Qualifier, making it a more important event with the hope that it could also nurture a more lucrative situation down the road as SC2 grows
To me, IPL is a professional (e)sports league, meant to display starcraft 2 on as competitive a level as possible. How far does a professional sports league's responsibilities extend? Does it only go as far as to guarantee the legitimacy of the games played? Or does it go out to taking care that events where those games are held fall under their league guidelines? I'm arguing that running a sports league entails more responsibility than a sponsor of a sports event or league.
IGN could legitimately sponsor an event as a company/internet entity without making it an official IGN ProLeague event. But if you're going to add IPL onto it, then its going beyond just marketing IGN. You are making it an extension of your league.
At this point we're running around in circles beating dead horses, so I'll probably stop posting unless a new point is made. Lets hope Gus comes up with the funds that are due, but the more time passes without word, the less likely and harder it'll be to resolve the issue cleanly.
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On November 11 2011 05:38 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 04:36 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 02:16 Jojo131 wrote:On November 11 2011 01:37 Wren wrote: This conversation about responsibility is absolutely hilarious. IGN is bound, of course, by it's contract w/ whatever entity they signed it with (AZK, PPSL, Gus, Amanda, or whoever). That said, they are absolutely free to simply walk away.
To bring up the old football analogy: Gatorade isn't responsible for anything if the NFL collapses, nor are any other sponsors. Perhaps look at college bowls. Visio isn't responsible if the Rose Bowl has a problem, nor is Tostidos for the Fiesta Bowl. They may decide that it is in their best interest to act, but such an act is not required.
IGN went far in their sponsorship, providing prizes in both cash and a seed in their tournament, as well as their stream's visibility. However, that does not change anything about their role as a sponsor, or add to their requirements. When IPL decided sponsored the PPSL, the name of the event changed into "The IPL4 Pacific Qualifiers, powered by the PPSL". I think that entitles them to a bit more responsibility imo. When Gatorade decided to sponsor the NFL, was it ever rebranded as "The Gatorade Cup, powered by the NFL" or something? I dont follow the NFL very much so I wouldn't know, but if not then this analogy doesn't pertain to IPL's situation. More likely to the other sponsors of the PPSL like Globe, nVidia, etc. The bowl games feature the sponsors' names extremely prominently: "Tostidos Fiesta Bowl," "The Rose Bowl game, presented by Visio," "Chick-fil-A Bowl," etc. Doesn't put them at any additional liability for the performance of the event. On November 11 2011 02:56 SarsFlu wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 17Sphynx17 wrote: Well question then, do the other ipl4 qualifiers have another name? The event for me was the ppsl, just so happned to also grant a slot for ipl4 as a qualifier. That is a sponsorship in kind when pertainjng to the nature of it.
I still think as a sponsor, others are putting/expexting more from ign because they do these types of events but on the contray, this was powered by ppsl under azk. No where did it state that it was co-run by ign/ipl. If you thought that then you added into what was written. That is what i believe. A sponsor will remain a sponsor regardless of line of business to whatever type of event. This is the liquipedia page for the PPSL Event.Granted, this is liquipedia and not 100% official documentation, but you look at it and tell me that all IGN did was sponsor the event. Before things went badly, EVERYONE was calling this an IPL event, not a PPSL event. "The IGN ProLeague has partnered with Team AZK to host the IGN ProLeague 4 Pacific Region Qualifiers in Manila" is the first line printed on that page. Partnered, to hold an IGN ProLeague Qualifier. Yes, AZK was the event organizer. But was it an IPL event? I don't see how you can say no. LOL, I wrote that. Follow the reference to find: "To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL, we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins." That's a sponsorship w/ a seed as a prize. Don't forget that AZK refused to call the tournament by the name IGN gave it, SEA qualifiers, instead insisting on using words that more closely reflected the name of their league. There's absolutely no evidence that this was anything more than a sponsorship. Its funny you bring up the college football bowl system. Currently there are dozens of bowl games, and all of them have various sponsors like in your example. However, only six of those bowl games are official BCS bowl games, sanctioned by Division 1 College Football to determine its champion. All those other bowl games, while they are bowl games, don't mean as much, and don't make as much money. Likewise, there are dozens of various SC2 tournaments across the world, most of them small because they're not an IPL, MLG, GSL etc. It just so happened that IPL decided to sanction this PPSL event as an IPL Qualifier, making it a more important event with the hope that it could also nurture a more lucrative situation down the road as SC2 grows To me, IPL is a professional (e)sports league, meant to display starcraft 2 on as competitive a level as possible. How far does a professional sports league's responsibilities extend? Does it only go as far as to guarantee the legitimacy of the games played? Or does it go out to taking care that events where those games are held fall under their league guidelines? I'm arguing that running a sports league entails more responsibility than a sponsor of a sports event or league. IGN could legitimately sponsor an event as a company/internet entity without making it an official IGN ProLeague event. But if you're going to add IPL onto it, then its going beyond just marketing IGN. You are making it an extension of your league. At this point we're running around in circles beating dead horses, so I'll probably stop posting unless a new point is made. Lets hope Gus comes up with the funds that are due, but the more time passes without word, the less likely and harder it'll be to resolve the issue cleanly.
Way to completely ignore the new point you asked for, that Chik-Fil-A putting their name on the Chik-Fil-A Bowl doesn't mean that it is organized by CFA, or belongs to a CFA football league/tournament(although only consisting of one bowl, the principle applies), or that if something goes wrong it is CFA who is responsible.
When the MLG winner gets seeded into the GSL, that doesn't mean that the GSL has full regulation over the guidelines by which MLG holds its tournaments. MLG still runs MLG, and GSL runs GSL. MLG is NOT an extension of GSL's League, as your logic would suggest. They are still separate entities, that have agreed to an exchange program. Remember, PPSL was an event before IGN got involved in sponsoring it and offering the winner a seed into their own tournament. They are separate entities.
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On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 23:48 SarsFlu wrote:On November 10 2011 22:24 17Sphynx17 wrote: I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. I know by now that we're just going to agree to disagree on this, but I don't see how you can say that IGN/IPL was just a sponsor. Nvidia and Razer were just sponsors. They just donated product/money (maybe not money, we aren't clear on that) to promote their product. This screencap posted by peonsanders on reddit says it to me. This was an IPL SANCTIONED event. Not just sponsored. If you are a legitimate, international esports organization, and you make an event a qualifier for your main tournament, guess what? You have made that event a part of your tournament. It now carries your name. If you had no say in the production or execution of this event, then it is your fault for not demanding and insuring that the standards you expect were not set beforehand. It is very clear that Gus and AZK CAUSED all the problems, one way or another, but a company like IPL should not have agreed to make an event an IPL qualifier solely on vague promises that the event would be taken care of. Still, IPL and all the other sponsors don't 'owe' anything more than they originally agreed to. Its hard to blame them if that is all they do. But they 'could' do more, and I'm just putting it out there that it would be really awesome if they did. So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups. The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament. IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust. And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly. Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed.
His point is that IGN ought to have put more effort into taking care of the integrity of their league from end to end. Your GSL/MLG example is in fact an excellent example of it. Now no outsider really knows the exact terms of contract between these two. But given it took rather long for them to establish it, it is safe to assume there were serious thoughts put into it beforehand. Yes it is also GSL's responsibility to double-check whatever partner they are going to team up with. You even had Mr Chae prior attending on-site to get a personal impression of the production and the organization.
The superficial ambivalence of this incident stems from the fact that it served both as official part of the league and extending IPL's brand and reach. The criticism is hence addressed at the former part. It is one thing to hire 3rd party services, another thing to integrate them into your core business.
In football, it is one thing to allow vendors to sell food and drinks, but a whole other question of hiring referees. And each should be treated accordingly.
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On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote: So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed.
Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it.
Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name.
And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom.
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On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote: So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed. Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference? Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it. Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name. And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom.
Actually, I think his analogy was quite good. In fact, I'd say the GSL and MLG are more connected than the IPL and PPSL. If you followed this situation, you'd know that the IPL essentially sponsored the PPSL as a favor.
Do you know how big IGN is? Do you know how small the PPSL is? The only thing IGN got from the PPSL was community props for not choking out a smaller tournament.
Fact is, if I sponsor your entry into a poker tournament by buying you in, I'm not responsible when you pull out a gun and rob the place.
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IPL is really handeling the issue with great respect and care. Kudos to IPL <3
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On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 23:48 SarsFlu wrote:On November 10 2011 22:24 17Sphynx17 wrote: I really think this is the wrong way when you think about it.
IGN/IPL is a sponsor. And one of the ways they contributed to help the event is add in that its a qualifier. As was mentioned by IGN, they didn't commission Tastosis. It was on Gus'/AZK's end that did this.
If pass on to the sponsors the responsibility of the fiasco that was the event and its consequences (expenses, liability etc) who in their right mind would sponsor then?
Sponsors give aid, be it financial or in kind. But when you are a sponsor, you are never responsibile for the event. If you look at ppsl.tv, the event was organized by Team AZK and PPSL group. It was never a partnership with IGN where IGN had a controlling say on the event. Granted they requested the date to be moved so as not to conflict with another qualifier they had scheduled, but that does not speak of control and immediately mean they are a partner.
Again, if you mention that sponsors should take responsibility, does that mean we blame every single one of the sponsor for also not doing their research into Gus et al? Surely given that these sponsors were tech gear, then that means they are in one way or another present as physical gear in the event.
For those that are not aware Globe is owned by the Ayala Corporation. A sponsor of the event, the supplier of the internet and technically the developer of the mall. So that is actually one of my guesses as to why they chose Glorietta Activity Center as the venue. Let's blame globe then for the shitty connection then? But we didn't even know what bandwidth was committed to the event and what means of connection they were supposed to have.
So other than trying to say IGN is to blame, do we also blame the local sponsors for any event for that matter that botches/fails miserably with the responsibility of cleaning the mess? I mention local because they are the ones closest to the "scene of the events that unfolded".
Unless there are writings to show that IGN is an official partner that should have taken part in the planning and execution of the event that was PPSL, I hardly think they should be made responsible based on the logic that "if IGN didn't sponsor then this mess wouldn't have happened."
Excerpt from IGN's post/message:
1) Why did we pick PPSL to run our SEA Qualifier for IPL 4?
When we were planning IPL 3, we heard that the PPSL was going to be doing an event that same weekend, with Tastosis and Korean players coming in. In order to allow players to play in both events, as well as making sure the community could watch both events, we entered in negotiations with the PPSL to shift their date for their event, even though their broadcast times would only slightly conflict with ours. We agreed to pay them to move their event and also we wanted to support the local Filipino eSports scene and thus went further and became a SPONSOR of their event. This was not a case of us picking them over anyone else. I know by now that we're just going to agree to disagree on this, but I don't see how you can say that IGN/IPL was just a sponsor. Nvidia and Razer were just sponsors. They just donated product/money (maybe not money, we aren't clear on that) to promote their product. This screencap posted by peonsanders on reddit says it to me. This was an IPL SANCTIONED event. Not just sponsored. If you are a legitimate, international esports organization, and you make an event a qualifier for your main tournament, guess what? You have made that event a part of your tournament. It now carries your name. If you had no say in the production or execution of this event, then it is your fault for not demanding and insuring that the standards you expect were not set beforehand. It is very clear that Gus and AZK CAUSED all the problems, one way or another, but a company like IPL should not have agreed to make an event an IPL qualifier solely on vague promises that the event would be taken care of. Still, IPL and all the other sponsors don't 'owe' anything more than they originally agreed to. Its hard to blame them if that is all they do. But they 'could' do more, and I'm just putting it out there that it would be really awesome if they did. So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups. The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament. IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust. And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly. Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed.
There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear.
They could have sponsored the event and given the qualification spots without making it an IGN event, but that's not what they did.
I can tell you the difference from my point of view as a viewer. If everything went well, I would never have known that it wasn't IGN organizing it. It was on IPL stream, IPL qualifier, there was IPL staff in the avenue. I decided to watch the event because I saw it on TL event list, after seing it was delayed and that they had some technical difficulty, I decided to wait to see the event. I had no doubt they were going to fix the issues because it was IPL, and in the past they have been very professionnal to deal with this kind of situation. 1 hour later, I gave up, but I would never have waited this long if it wasn't an IPL event.
And I'm sure it's the same with most of the people involved here, the fact that this was an IPL event certainly had an impact on their decision to get involved.
When you sell a product using your brand name, it doesn't matter if you didn't make it yourself, you are responsible.
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On November 11 2011 06:15 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote: So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed. Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference? Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it. Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name. And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom. Actually, I think his analogy was quite good. In fact, I'd say the GSL and MLG are more connected than the IPL and PPSL. If you followed this situation, you'd know that the IPL essentially sponsored the PPSL as a favor. Do you know how big IGN is? Do you know how small the PPSL is? The only thing IGN got from the PPSL was community props for not choking out a smaller tournament. Fact is, if I sponsor your entry into a poker tournament by buying you in, I'm not responsible when you pull out a gun and rob the place. You can't compare this with GSL and MLG, for this simple reason : MLG and GSL have always made clear what the actual situation was. IGN only communicated that they weren't organizing the event themselves after it went wrong.
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On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments.
On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competition
To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner.
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On November 11 2011 06:42 Elean wrote:
IGN only communicated that they weren't organizing the event themselves after it went wrong.
Enough said.
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On November 11 2011 06:53 latan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:42 Elean wrote:
IGN only communicated that they weren't organizing the event themselves after it went wrong.
Enough said.
Do you really think so? I'm not so sure. After all, while we might not have known that IGN wasn't organizing, everyone involved with putting the qualifier together was. So, while as a member of the public you might wish for more transparency, don't the you think that sole responsibility lies with the organizers?
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On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionShow nested quote +To show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers.
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On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers. Is that like how the GSL Open Season 1 became the 2010 TG Sambo Intel Global Starcraft II Open Season 1?
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On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers. For that to be anything more than a name, IGN would have had to be more heavily involved than 'naming sponsor.'
edit: see above response.
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On November 11 2011 07:09 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers. For that to be anything more than a name, IGN would have had to be more heavily involved than 'naming sponsor.' edit: see above response.
More involved, you mean streaming the event on their site ? Sending their staff ? Advertising the event ?
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On November 11 2011 07:11 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 07:09 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers. For that to be anything more than a name, IGN would have had to be more heavily involved than 'naming sponsor.' edit: see above response. More involved, you mean streaming the event on their site ? Sending their staff ? Advertising the event ? Yes, I do. IGN didn't promote, they didn't send staff, and they only allowed the PPSL staff to stream to their site (the speed with which that permission was revoked speaks volumes to just how disconnected they were). The stream tech himself has posted a huge critique of Gus, including tidbits about just how alone he was in his efforts.
EDIT: here's the only "hype" I can find: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=2570 Notice who it's posted by. LOL, from the same thread:
Team AZK and the PPSL are led and organized by Gus "AZKwitchdoc" Ledesma. We at the PPSL are doing our very best to make this event as successful as it can be. We appreciate the support. FOR ESPORTS!
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I said that "The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent" Which means that checking out the partner before they partner is their responsibility, yes. IGN made a mistake in that regard. I made that clear. But the responsibility would not shift, even if Gus were to vanish off the face of the earth. Using the poker example from a few posts above, if you sponsor a poker player, then he goes to the event, pulls a gun, and robs it, that is his issue. If the thief flees and is never found, that sponsor isn't liable for what the thief did and paying back that money, because responsibility does not shift like that.
And the PPSL definitely existed before IGN stepped in to provide a sponsorship, and this was always made clear from the start. Even when it was being hyped on the IGN stream, they continually called it the PPSL. There was never any doubt in my mind as to who was the organizer and who was the sponsor.
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IPL is great. So happy you guys are around.
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On November 11 2011 07:05 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 06:52 Wren wrote:On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote: The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference?
PPSL had been running insignificant, unhyped tournaments all summer. They finally talked IGN into sponsoring them and including a seed as a prize. AZK came up with the name-dropping tournament name on their own. Notice that they even swapped the classification as the SEA qualifier for a title more similar to their own tournaments. On November 11 2011 06:34 Elean wrote: There is something you fail to understand. It was not the PPSL, it was the "IGN ProLeague Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers", an IGN event. This is extremely clear. Read IGN's statement. http://www.ign.com/ipl/news/2011/08/22/ipl-originals-boasts-new-international-competitionTo show our appreciation to Team AZK and the PPSL [wren's note: for promoting IPL, or claiming to], we here at IGN eSports have decided to make the Philippine PRO Starcraft 2 League the official SEA qualifying event for our event after IPL: Origins. This WAS the PPSL, who IGN gave a seed to their tournament to award to their winner. Sorry no, it used to be the PPSL, but this was not the PPSL when the event started. The PPSL became the IGN Prolegue Season 4 Pacific Qualifiers.
You and quite a few others seem to be missing a fundamental point of the buissness side of things. Rebranding an event to go along with a sponsor or turning your event into a feeder/qualifier for another tournament does not necessarily (and actually usually) change anything on YOUR side of things.
I'll give you an example, say i run a fairly successfull tennis tournament below the challenge league level, basically an amateur event run by volunteers (what some local SC2 tournaments currently are). If a regional challenger tournament approaches me and says they want to sponsor my event and will give me 14k + streaming rights on their channel (which has far more exposure than my own options) I'd be a fool not to take it. What changes for me? I'd probably have to rename my tournament and promote it according to the new name and the new prizes. What doesn't change? I still have to run my own god damn tournament just as i was planning before, the only fundamental difference is, I now have 14k dollars from a sponsor to add to my budget.
In return for that i will most likely have to sign a contract specifying what i must do for it to remain a feeder tournament (run a fair tournament, stick to the rules etc.). Maybe that is a step IPL missed, or maybe they have such a contract but do not think it is in their best interest to pursue legal action, who knows, but they certainly ain't responsible to send a staff to run the event for me just because they became main sponsor and are allowed to stick logos all over the stage (as every main sponsor does).
What probably creates some confusion is the fact that the Sponsor in our specific case is a broadcasting service themselves. If the sponser in question had been Coca Cola we certainly wouldn't have this debate (or at least i hope so) even if the laws behind it don't change at all.
(edit: fixed a typo and removed one word which got left over from a draft sentence i deleted)
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They had more than 1 sponsor, I think we should attack them all! That will definitely encourage them to sponsor other events in the future!
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 11 2011 06:11 SarsFlu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 05:30 Fyrewolf wrote: So then when MLG winners get seeded into the GSL, that makes MLG actually a GSL(sanctioned) event by your logic? So GSL actually took over MLG, there is no real MLG because they are actually just GSL events. That's not how it works though. Just because the winner gets seeded does not automatically equate the two groups into one. The PPSL is still the PPSL, and the IPL is the IPL, just the winner of the PPSL gets qualified for IPL. That does NOT mean that the PPSL is an IPL event, they are two separate groups. The i44Multiplay is the next regional organizer, but that doesn't mean that IGN now owns the Multiplay name or brand or anything, they are still separate groups.
The relationship is sponsors give money/equipment to the event, the organizer makes the event happen. If the event doesn't happen right, it's not the sponsor's fault for giving money. It's the organizer's fault for not organizing the tournament right. The responsibility of the sponsor is to make sure that their support is done properly and (for their own sake) well spent, NOT to be responsible for actually organizing the tournament.
IGN has already admitted their mistake in trusting Gus and learned their lesson from it. But their mistake was not the mismanaging of the tournament, their mistake was the misplacement of trust and support into Gus. The responsibility lies with the ORGANIZERS, not the SPONSOR. IGN (or any other organization sponsoring, Nvida, Razer, etc.) can never responsible for someone else's mistakes of mismanagement, but ONLY their own mistake of misplaced support and trust.
And that screencap means absolutely nothing. When you sponsor an event, your name gets plastered on everything. I don't believe that Coca Cola built the stadium, hired a team, and organized the football game when I see their logo on the sideline posters. That's just silly.
Admittedly IGN did make a mistake in their judgement, which they learned from and will be better for it in the future. But they were not the one's who did the mismanaging. To say they are responsible for the outcomes of someone else's mistake shifts the responsibility away from where it belongs, away from the guy that FAILED in his responsibility to organize the tournament right. You can't hold a higher up accountable for the failure of the lower down, but only hold them accountable for choosing the guy who failed. Ok, I just had to reply to a few parts of this. Equating the exchange program between MLG and GSL to this is just silly. Those two leagues set up the agreement to cross promote their two leagues and to help grow SC2 esports. GSL sends players to MLG, MLG gets to send some players to GSL. The MLG NEVER lists their tournaments as a qualifier for the GSL, only that succeeding in their events qualifies certain players for the GSL. The PPSL, as far as I can tell, did not exist until this event. The IPL has been in existence since basically the beginning of SC2? And they announced the event as an IGN ProLeague SEA Qualifier. See the difference? Your points in the middle I addressed in my last post so I'll skip it. Your last paragraph misses my point. Obviously Gus is primarily responsible. But WHAT IF he runs away, and cannot be found? Then who is the next in line for accountability? thegunrun, amanda, and the other people footing the bill right now? They're stuck with it now, and legally, maybe they should be. But the company running the IPL, who put their name on it, should show more compassion and concern for an event bearing their name. And your last sentence troubles me quite a bit. So you're saying that people higher up should NOT be held accountable for the people under them? How does that work? If someone under you fails and cannot correct something, the responsibility should move either UP the chain, or from the top of the chain, NOT down the chain or from the bottom.
I'm sorry again but if you look at it properly IGN and PPSL helped each other through cross promotion as well like what you say for GSL and MLG. IPL doesn't really have a concrete presence here in SEA or at least wants to be more established and PPSL needs the additional promotion for future events its going to hold, as such cross promoting themselves is one of the "no-need-to-mention" and automatic perk of the sponsoring of PPSL by IGN.
I really agree with one post. Just because IGN does e-sports events, some are calling them out to do more. That is why I keep emphasizing they are a sponsor (regardless whether or not they are major or minor). It was and has always been the PPSL, with the perk (a sponsorship in kind) to give the winner an IPL slot. If IGN as a sponsor didn't make it a qualifier, what was the whole point of sponsoring the event then? Why even bother giving out 14k usd for something that does not in any way help your brand as a sponsor.
They have never been found to have stated they are part of the organizing body. Granted they had an interest in it, but so do all sponsors. It's marketing and promotion, a commercial interest. But just because you have an interest as a sponsor doesn't give you any form of responsibility for the event that messed up. Unless you can find a law that states such, I don't think you should even be expecting that from any type of sponsor.
For those that are asking why then did they bother to fly in guys from IGN to PPSL? Well, it's plain and simple, to help and assist in any way based on their experience from past events. What they didn't expect to find when they got here was there was no organization of the event. Just stuff to be used for the event with a lot of problems that came along with the disorganization. Heck, if you think about it more, when IGN pulled out, I surely would have expected IGN personnel to simply stop going for day 2. But they didn't. The same way they didn't pull out in giving the slot for IPL4 to the winner. They still kept their end in that regard for the assistance.
So kudos to IGN.
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