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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2012 23:33 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:15 ZasZ. wrote:On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote: I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in. I do not care about them, because they had all the tools to solve the situation beforehand by having the proper rules and contracts in place or even when shit hit the fan, by a myriad of ways like the already proposed showmatch or similar. Instead they created drama for crazy part of SC2 community to feed on, where instead they could have shown some profesionality themselves and create a nice showmatch coverup that would be definitely better for the image presented to sponsors. You should care about them because from a tournament organizer's perspective, SC2 events simply aren't as profitable as LoL and you're less likely to get these issues in a team event. With or without LoL, the ESPORTS bubble would already be an issue for SC2. Players that take it for granted are going to get bit in the ass.
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On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote:On January 31 2012 22:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 22:28 Tobberoth wrote:On January 31 2012 21:56 mTw|NarutO wrote: [quote]
They could have played a showmatch and it would have been the right choice. You cannot just take away his second place and put him in 4th place. How is Illusion #2. He lost to Stephano in the semis, but I don't want to blame ONOG. They had to make a decision on the fly and fast, so.. they will learn from it and probably cast from replays next time. Illusion is obviously 2nd because he played in the finals. Stephano didn't, so I don't know where you're getting your idea that he's 2nd? See, there's two pespectives to this, one isn't more right than the other, so it was ONOGs decision. There are no two perspectives on it. Stephano is technically 2nd because he reached the finals and did give a default win to Kas. Illusion LOST to Stephano in a single elimination tournament so the best he could reach at that point is 3rd place. If you or any other person in the world don't want to understand it or simply ignore it, please do but don't tell me that Illusion actually deserved or got 2nd place, because its not true. ONOG decided to change the tournament format after Stephano did forfeit and only PUNISHED Stephano for that in the heat of the battle if you ask me. To the person who asked me if I wanted to happen stuff like this again and if I think Stephano should be punished. No I don't want this to happen again thats why I said you need contracts between players and tournament hosts and a punishment would be to just do not invite him again, but as I already said as well, I do think the tournament would hurt themselves as Stephano is a good player and pulls lots of viewers. As Arew said in another thread, ONOG is simply stealing money from Stephano at this point. Either disqualify him and make it clear OR give him his deserved 2nd place IMO. To Jibba: In ANY sports an athlete an forfeit at any point if he thinks he's incapable of completing the task or cannot finish the match. If a national soccer team cannot continue due to exhaustion they will forfeit the match. Obviously they will try but its a far bigger stage and usually its not 1v1 but teamgames. In boxing / fighting if you don't feel in good condition you forfeit or postpone. Stephano offered to postpone / reschedule and that wasn't possible so he did forfeit. How often have you seen boxing matches been rescheduled, just because one of the fighters wasn't fit at that point. It happened before. Technical k.O? Same story. The boxer wants to fight, but he cannot so he 'has' to or will be forced to forfeit. Stephano probably wanted to play, but he was tired so he couldn't really play. No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me. Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money. lol would you mind to read my post before answering to it? that's really retarded.
i never said "without consequences" he should face the consequences fixed by the ruleset. i also said that i understand ONOG since he destroyed the tourney in some way.
but still his decision was the best he could make since i don't wanna watch him, thinking he isn't able to play. he wanted to reschedule - they didn't accept... so in a way they destroyed the final by themselfes.
at the end... they need rules.
AND no this "He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers." is the worst bullshit ever. they are no entertainers! just because Boxer or TLO stated some times that they want to entertain, it's not the main goal of a progamer. they just fight to win.
i hope you get it some day and get your narcissism fixed. they don't play for you.
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On January 31 2012 23:14 Koorb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 21:12 Nihilnovi wrote: I for one hope he gets punished by his team, this is ridiculous and extremely unproffesional. [...]. Actually this statement disregards the whole culture of Millenium's staff. Millenium's aim is to make a living out of esport, and that's it. They basically don't want to be involved with the international community, nor do they want to look nice to the foreign people, as long as their players are invited in big events and are able to make money. Millenium's manager spoke about the ONoG final issue yesterday night, and explained that as far as he was concerned, this kind of forfeits happens all the time (which is pretty much untruth, how often in the SC2 era a player has forfeited in final of a four-figures prize pool tournament?), and that subsequently Stephano's behavior didn't matter at all. According to him, the whole thing is just another TL.net made-up drama, and he considers the whole thing as a close cased, since he finds that ONoG rightfully handled the situation by placing Stephano 4th.
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
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On January 31 2012 23:29 Candadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:28 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote:On January 31 2012 22:39 mTw|NarutO wrote: [quote]
There are no two perspectives on it. Stephano is technically 2nd because he reached the finals and did give a default win to Kas. Illusion LOST to Stephano in a single elimination tournament so the best he could reach at that point is 3rd place. If you or any other person in the world don't want to understand it or simply ignore it, please do but don't tell me that Illusion actually deserved or got 2nd place, because its not true.
ONOG decided to change the tournament format after Stephano did forfeit and only PUNISHED Stephano for that in the heat of the battle if you ask me.
To the person who asked me if I wanted to happen stuff like this again and if I think Stephano should be punished. No I don't want this to happen again thats why I said you need contracts between players and tournament hosts and a punishment would be to just do not invite him again, but as I already said as well, I do think the tournament would hurt themselves as Stephano is a good player and pulls lots of viewers.
As Arew said in another thread, ONOG is simply stealing money from Stephano at this point. Either disqualify him and make it clear OR give him his deserved 2nd place IMO.
To Jibba: In ANY sports an athlete an forfeit at any point if he thinks he's incapable of completing the task or cannot finish the match. If a national soccer team cannot continue due to exhaustion they will forfeit the match. Obviously they will try but its a far bigger stage and usually its not 1v1 but teamgames.
In boxing / fighting if you don't feel in good condition you forfeit or postpone. Stephano offered to postpone / reschedule and that wasn't possible so he did forfeit. How often have you seen boxing matches been rescheduled, just because one of the fighters wasn't fit at that point. It happened before.
Technical k.O? Same story. The boxer wants to fight, but he cannot so he 'has' to or will be forced to forfeit. Stephano probably wanted to play, but he was tired so he couldn't really play. No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me. Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money. But he is not paid by the tournament or the viewers. He is paid by his team and you have no idea what he is paid for. How do you know he is paid for entertaining viewers. Maybe they just pay him to quickly make some money on SC2 bubble and then move on (see someone else's post about goals of Millenium). And since he did not break tournament rules, taking his prizemoney is incorrect decision. If tournament had rules against forfeits then it would be ok. I am baffled that people are defending blatant unprofessionalism. It's sickening, because, as I said before, these same people will go into a thread and preach about how Starcraft 2 is a sport and how they want it to be big in our culture. This kind of shit should not be allowed. They should take responsibility. Simple as. They are professionals. Act like it. You would never find me preaching that Starcraft 2 should be professional or whatever. I have nothing but contempt for professional(as in with a lot of money involved) sports. And I could care less if Starcraft is big or mainstream or whatever. I like watching SC2 games and for that I do not need SC to be big or mainstream. I prefer if players play when they feel like playing not half-sleeping or even just no wanting to play just to please entitled fans.
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On January 31 2012 23:47 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:29 Candadar wrote:On January 31 2012 23:28 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:48 Taiki wrote: [quote]
No boxer I've ever seen scheduled himself for 2 fights in one day. Players are responsible for their own scheduals. Stephano double booked himself and didn't finnish his job. Why someone should get paid for something they didn't finnish is beyond me.
Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants. Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money. But he is not paid by the tournament or the viewers. He is paid by his team and you have no idea what he is paid for. How do you know he is paid for entertaining viewers. Maybe they just pay him to quickly make some money on SC2 bubble and then move on (see someone else's post about goals of Millenium). And since he did not break tournament rules, taking his prizemoney is incorrect decision. If tournament had rules against forfeits then it would be ok. I am baffled that people are defending blatant unprofessionalism. It's sickening, because, as I said before, these same people will go into a thread and preach about how Starcraft 2 is a sport and how they want it to be big in our culture. This kind of shit should not be allowed. They should take responsibility. Simple as. They are professionals. Act like it. You would never find me preaching that Starcraft 2 should be professional or whatever. I have nothing but contempt for professional(as in with a lot of money involved) sports. And I could care less if Starcraft is big or mainstream or whatever. I like watching SC2 games and for that I do not need SC to be big or mainstream. I prefer if players play when they feel like playing not half-sleeping or even just no wanting to play just to please entitled fans.
And here we have homo ireadnotus who takes phrases and interprets them contrary to everyone else in the thread (at least restricted to people you supposedly disagree with). A professional is not just about money, it's about acting appropriately. Your enjoyment comes from those acts, and the fact that Stephano doesn't play took away your enjoyment of watching sc2. And if SC2 weren't big, you couldn't watch those games.
But the thing that struck me the most about your post is that your contempt also covers people like teachers, doctors and others who work all their life without a break to act as professionals. One cannot be THAT self-centered.
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Its tough to make a call cause you really don't know what its like being in a tournament where you play all day. No sport do they play ALL day and expect to show the same results in the last hour than in the first.
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On January 31 2012 23:53 cactusjack914 wrote: Its tough to make a call cause you really don't know what its like being in a tournament where you play all day. No sport do they play ALL day and expect to show the same results in the last hour than in the first.
Cricket would like a word with you.
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On January 31 2012 23:41 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:33 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:15 ZasZ. wrote:On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote: I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in. I do not care about them, because they had all the tools to solve the situation beforehand by having the proper rules and contracts in place or even when shit hit the fan, by a myriad of ways like the already proposed showmatch or similar. Instead they created drama for crazy part of SC2 community to feed on, where instead they could have shown some profesionality themselves and create a nice showmatch coverup that would be definitely better for the image presented to sponsors. You should care about them because from a tournament organizer's perspective, SC2 events simply aren't as profitable as LoL and you're less likely to get these issues in a team event. With or without LoL, the ESPORTS bubble would already be an issue for SC2. Players that take it for granted are going to get bit in the ass. Considering that Stephano wants to make some money on the SC2 boom and than just continue doing something worthwhile like studying I think he does not really care about long-term longevity. As for me I do not care about the "e-sports" thing too much either. I like watching high level games, but even much smaller scene will have them, maybe not as high level as the big scene, but I just do not really care that much. If it is not meant to be it is not. Games survive even without being spectacles for the masses and there are always people high level enough that you can be awed by their performance.
But the main point is I care more about player trying than the game in general. If he would provide some half-assed performance there would be no drama, people would just praise Kas and spam that Stephano is overrated. The only positive thing on that alternate scenario is the lack of drama. The game would be pointless and boring. Considering how much content there is for free why should I be angry for a player forfeiting a match because he was tired. I could just switch to some other stream or watch VODs. It is not like I cannot find entertainment without that game.
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I really dislike such behaviours by players. Regardless of how good you are, you should always respect the competition.
Stephano should be fully DQ. He should not be awarded 4th place at all. The penalty is too lenient, although it has no real consequences to him at all. Neither does Stephano care. He might have won his spot in the finals and deserves at least 2nd placement, but not respecting the competition means that he should be punished for it.
Being tired is merely an excuse. If you can't commit, don't join the competition at all. Be professional and plan your schedule. Take into account possible conflicts in schedule. Very childish behaviour honestly.
If ESPORTS were to grow, players and organisers should do their part. This is a case of being extremely unprofessional. No player should view themselves as bigger than the competition. Organisers should also be firm in handling such scenarios. Schedules are to be respected, and lines have to be drawn. Organisers should have pride in their competition, and not let 'stars' boss them around.
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He forfeited. So what? I mean it sucks for the fans and the organization, but it's just a forfeit. Get over it. ONOG dealt with it appropriately to still get a finals match.
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On January 31 2012 23:59 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:41 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 23:33 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:15 ZasZ. wrote:On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote: I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in. I do not care about them, because they had all the tools to solve the situation beforehand by having the proper rules and contracts in place or even when shit hit the fan, by a myriad of ways like the already proposed showmatch or similar. Instead they created drama for crazy part of SC2 community to feed on, where instead they could have shown some profesionality themselves and create a nice showmatch coverup that would be definitely better for the image presented to sponsors. You should care about them because from a tournament organizer's perspective, SC2 events simply aren't as profitable as LoL and you're less likely to get these issues in a team event. With or without LoL, the ESPORTS bubble would already be an issue for SC2. Players that take it for granted are going to get bit in the ass. Considering that Stephano wants to make some money on the SC2 boom and than just continue doing something worthwhile like studying I think he does not really care about long-term longevity. As for me I do not care about the "e-sports" thing too much either. I like watching high level games, but even much smaller scene will have them, maybe not as high level as the big scene, but I just do not really care that much. If it is not meant to be it is not. Games survive even without being spectacles for the masses and there are always people high level enough that you can be awed by their performance. But the main point is I care more about player trying than the game in general. If he would provide some half-assed performance there would be no drama, people would just praise Kas and spam that Stephano is overrated. The only positive thing on that alternate scenario is the lack of drama. The game would be pointless and boring. Considering how much content there is for free why should I be angry for a player forfeiting a match because he was tired. I could just switch to some other stream or watch VODs. It is not like I cannot find entertainment without that game. you sir deserve a QFT... Stephano does what is best for him and don't arm others. That is ok for me. He showed great games while he played the tournaments, then forfeited, but still played great games.
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On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:14 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 21:12 Nihilnovi wrote: I for one hope he gets punished by his team, this is ridiculous and extremely unproffesional. [...]. Actually this statement disregards the whole culture of Millenium's staff. Millenium's aim is to make a living out of esport, and that's it. They basically don't want to be involved with the international community, nor do they want to look nice to the foreign people, as long as their players are invited in big events and are able to make money. Millenium's manager spoke about the ONoG final issue yesterday night, and explained that as far as he was concerned, this kind of forfeits happens all the time (which is pretty much untruth, how often in the SC2 era a player has forfeited in final of a four-figures prize pool tournament?), and that subsequently Stephano's behavior didn't matter at all. According to him, the whole thing is just another TL.net made-up drama, and he considers the whole thing as a close cased, since he finds that ONoG rightfully handled the situation by placing Stephano 4th. Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe. It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
wtf are you talking about ?
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On January 31 2012 23:59 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:41 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 23:33 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:15 ZasZ. wrote:On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote: I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in. I do not care about them, because they had all the tools to solve the situation beforehand by having the proper rules and contracts in place or even when shit hit the fan, by a myriad of ways like the already proposed showmatch or similar. Instead they created drama for crazy part of SC2 community to feed on, where instead they could have shown some profesionality themselves and create a nice showmatch coverup that would be definitely better for the image presented to sponsors. You should care about them because from a tournament organizer's perspective, SC2 events simply aren't as profitable as LoL and you're less likely to get these issues in a team event. With or without LoL, the ESPORTS bubble would already be an issue for SC2. Players that take it for granted are going to get bit in the ass. But the main point is I care more about player trying than the game in general. If he would provide some half-assed performance there would be no drama, people would just praise Kas and spam that Stephano is overrated. The only positive thing on that alternate scenario is the lack of drama. The game would be pointless and boring. excactly, besides that the drama is fun also (if you don't take it too seriously) and makes eSports even more popular maybe.
the people complaining about behavior are that one who are really childish.
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On January 31 2012 23:51 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:47 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:29 Candadar wrote:On January 31 2012 23:28 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:52 nihlon wrote:On January 31 2012 22:49 ceaRshaf wrote: [quote]
Because people think that it's the players right to do what ever he wants.
Who in their right mind would think that? Maybe people that have never worked for a day in their life perhaps. strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it). am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money. But he is not paid by the tournament or the viewers. He is paid by his team and you have no idea what he is paid for. How do you know he is paid for entertaining viewers. Maybe they just pay him to quickly make some money on SC2 bubble and then move on (see someone else's post about goals of Millenium). And since he did not break tournament rules, taking his prizemoney is incorrect decision. If tournament had rules against forfeits then it would be ok. I am baffled that people are defending blatant unprofessionalism. It's sickening, because, as I said before, these same people will go into a thread and preach about how Starcraft 2 is a sport and how they want it to be big in our culture. This kind of shit should not be allowed. They should take responsibility. Simple as. They are professionals. Act like it. You would never find me preaching that Starcraft 2 should be professional or whatever. I have nothing but contempt for professional(as in with a lot of money involved) sports. And I could care less if Starcraft is big or mainstream or whatever. I like watching SC2 games and for that I do not need SC to be big or mainstream. I prefer if players play when they feel like playing not half-sleeping or even just no wanting to play just to please entitled fans. And here we have homo ireadnotus who takes phrases and interprets them contrary to everyone else in the thread (at least restricted to people you supposedly disagree with). A professional is not just about money, it's about acting appropriately. Your enjoyment comes from those acts, and the fact that Stephano doesn't play took away your enjoyment of watching sc2. And if SC2 weren't big, you couldn't watch those games. But the thing that struck me the most about your post is that your contempt also covers people like teachers, doctors and others who work all their life without a break to act as professionals. One cannot be THAT self-centered. Lol, for calling me "ireadnotus" you are not reading yourself. Did you notice how I specified professional sports specifically, so no my posts says nothing about teachers, doctors and others. I actually consider professional sports an insult to those professions, so. I even specified that I have contempt for some specific areas linked with sports professionalisation, not the whole concept of professionalism.
And no Stephano's act did not take away from my enjoyment of watching sc2, I just calmly switched to other stream and I would not care to see his game when he was half-assedly playing anyway. I even disagree with you that what he did constitutes unprofessionalism.
Actually what he did is considered professional behaviour in fields outside of professional sports that you mentioned. So while we are at using bad metaphors to unrelated fields, it is professional for a doctor to refuse to operate on you, if there is no danger to your life or there is substitute doctor, if he is tired because he was already working more than one shift.
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Actually what he did is considered professional behaviour in fields outside of professional sports that you mentioned. So while we are at using bad metaphors to unrelated fields, it is professional for a doctor to refuse to operate on you, if there is no danger to your life or there is substitute doctor, if he is tired because he was already working more than one shift.
It's like the doctor already did an operation that day and worked on the other for 3 hours, and exactly when he works on your heart (the most important part of the operation) he says he is tired and leaves the operation room.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2012 23:59 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 23:41 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 23:33 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:15 ZasZ. wrote:On January 31 2012 23:11 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 31 2012 19:46 Detwiler wrote: I mean seriously everyone is it really to much to ask that the players dont drop out of the freakin final of a tournament I mean wtf how is that an odd expectation or people feeling entitled to anything? He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports. What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling. If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament. Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. On January 31 2012 22:20 ceaRshaf wrote: Players think they have many rights but almost no responsibilities. This is precisely what's going on. Comparing to other sports is useless. In other sports the athletes have to be present at the site. No one plays football match in any way close to 2-3AM in the morning. And in this case more power to the players. I could care less about the tournament organizers or spoiled community with entitlement complex. Agreed that the community has entitlement issues, but you don't care about the tournament organizers either? If there aren't people to organize these tournaments, we don't get to see any games and the players don't get paid. It's in everyone's best interest to make them happy and to show sponsors that eSports can be taken seriously and is worth investing in. I do not care about them, because they had all the tools to solve the situation beforehand by having the proper rules and contracts in place or even when shit hit the fan, by a myriad of ways like the already proposed showmatch or similar. Instead they created drama for crazy part of SC2 community to feed on, where instead they could have shown some profesionality themselves and create a nice showmatch coverup that would be definitely better for the image presented to sponsors. You should care about them because from a tournament organizer's perspective, SC2 events simply aren't as profitable as LoL and you're less likely to get these issues in a team event. With or without LoL, the ESPORTS bubble would already be an issue for SC2. Players that take it for granted are going to get bit in the ass. Considering that Stephano wants to make some money on the SC2 boom and than just continue doing something worthwhile like studying I think he does not really care about long-term longevity. As for me I do not care about the "e-sports" thing too much either. I like watching high level games, but even much smaller scene will have them, maybe not as high level as the big scene, but I just do not really care that much. If it is not meant to be it is not. Games survive even without being spectacles for the masses and there are always people high level enough that you can be awed by their performance. But the main point is I care more about player trying than the game in general. If he would provide some half-assed performance there would be no drama, people would just praise Kas and spam that Stephano is overrated. The only positive thing on that alternate scenario is the lack of drama. The game would be pointless and boring. Considering how much content there is for free why should I be angry for a player forfeiting a match because he was tired. I could just switch to some other stream or watch VODs. It is not like I cannot find entertainment without that game. For me, if he had played and tried to execute a normal gameplan, i would like him more and cheer for him in the future. Like you said, it's about effort. You don't have to play your best, you just have to try your best.
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Stephano will not be able to keep up with the skill level required to play on the highest level. He would never stand a chance in code s where his opponants can prepare for him. Anybody remember how quik mpv dismantled the 'stephano style'. Tbqh, he's no drg or nestea.
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Sorry if this has been commented on already but i didn't see it.
I thought most pro players saty up really late anyways since well it kind of makes sense as they have no real reason unless they have school or some other kind of commitment. Is stephano taking class now? If so i can somewhat see why he needed to get some sleep but if not what does he really lose by staying up later?
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On January 31 2012 22:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 22:53 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:50 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 31 2012 22:47 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:45 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:44 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:43 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 22:33 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 22:11 Jibba wrote:On January 31 2012 19:51 mTw|NarutO wrote: [quote]
He as the eSport athlete he is felt incapable of playing against one of the best Terrans outside of Korea in bo7 final and asked for a reschudle, as it was not possible he decided to take the default loss. Its his absolute right as athlete do to so. If you want to understand or not, his decision is perfectly fine. The way he 'announced' it to the tournament was not professional and everyone agrees, YET what he did was perfectly fine and would be acceptable in any sports.
What ONOG should have done is play the 3rd place match and let Kas play a showmatch against the winner, I'm sure Kas would have done that. Taking the 2nd place of Stephano would mean he's disqualified. Putting him in 4th place is simply punishment and not backed up by anything, not the tournament system not a ruling.
If Stephano would care about the money he would sue them and would probably get the money. He doesn't owe anyone besides his team/sponsors anything and if he felt incapable of playing its better to forfeit instead of showing very bad games. That shows you that he doesn't only care about the money, but rather about the community. He wants to deliver good games, but in his condition he had no way of delivering so he chose the alternative he had - withdraw from the tournament.
Thats why I said it only works with contracts between the tournament hosts and the players for invite tournaments, just like with teams and their players. That way and with a rulebook, you can prevent situations like that OR solve them in a proper manner. Since when do "athletes" have an absolute right to do that? In what sport do teams take forfeits because they're too sleepy? You'd be ridiculed off your team for something like that. The comparison to a diva like TO isn't fair because TO played a game 6 weeks after breaking his leg, because he wanted to compete. He doesn't technically owe anyone but the tournament organizer and Millenium, but it shows that he's a bounty hunter. Honestly, what makes you think players have this inalienable right to play only when they feel at their best condition? That's simply not reality in any other job on the planet, and especially one where an event and broadcast is planned around it. Players live in their own little bubble at the moment, but this really doesn't need to happen and tournament organizers can prevent it from happening again, without very much loss. It was not perfectly fine nor acceptable in any sport. I doubt any team manager or coach would field a player when he is falling off the bench out of exhaustion. Said player would face the consequences of failing to manage his schedule properly. It was Stephanos duty to be properly prepared for a tournament he participates in, and he didn't. That is the offense. Not him quitting. Players fight to get back in the game, even when they're injured. That is their decision. Yes, and we respect them more as competitors for it. I'm arguing Stephano doesn't deserve that respect. Yes, and others argue that going from X gets more respect for doing something therefore Y doesn't deserve any is treating players as your personal puppet. Are you still really pushing your ideas on this? Honestly? After all those pages. If anything, it's the same dogmatism coming from you. You merely state the right to forfeit was "proven not existing". Please be so kind and refer to those alleged. Pages 93-95 of LR, 103 onwards until 113. You're welcome, but you can just look up your past posts. Replies always followed until people got tired of repeating themselves.
Or could it be the arguments weren't all that convincing as you would think? The mere fact I was replied to doesn't make the opposition any more sound. For the sake of feasibility, I extracted the direct responses to my posts. If you feel there were other posts indirectly addressing my points, do go ahead and quote them.
Let's take look shall we:
+ Show Spoiler +Oh but the rule for granting a forfeit is very simple: any forfeit that's due to an accident, or some factor that falls completely out of a player's responsibility should be allowed without punishment. Any other reason for forfeiting, including lack preparation -- as in Stephano's case -- should be reason enough to absolutely hammer the player for being unprofessional. Dogmatism. As much as I believe in the right to forfeit, I admit. But we'll get to that later.
+ Show Spoiler +As a professional gamer, Stephano had enough time to schedule his meals and sleep times around the tournaments he himself accepted to play today.. that's what professional players do. I never rejected the responsibility of the player to take care of scheduling. It is the reason that led to the issue. But still this reply doesn't address the fact that you can't change the state of being unable to perform at the moment it arises no matter what.
+ Show Spoiler +You know I have had to stay late at work and skip lunch numerous times. Sometimes you just have to do it. Stephano shows blatant disrespect to ONOG and the fans with his actions today. Pure personal anecdote. He can, that means everybody should. That would mean we should have zero employer protection in any field.
+ Show Spoiler +He should have scheduled his sleep so this wouldn't have happened or he should have declined his invitation. He didn't do anything wrong in the moment, but not planning ahead for an invitational event is being unprofessional. This is one of the few correct evaluations.
Now we move on to the replies of you:
+ Show Spoiler +The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate.
You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. Edit: You probably want clarification: appropriate behaviour includes only acting when you know you can uphold your high criteria. You construe it as a licence to give up, but the real way to read it is to never slip and to always prepare well enough not to need excuses. He accepted the invitation, and should have taken the time to do his upmost.
If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're Last edit: 2012-01-30 14:34:50 having now disappear. That we never really disagreed in. The "duty" to have the will and taking care to perform your task as good as possible is valid. Still it doesn't address the fact that situations where you are no longer able to perform can and do arise. You are brushing them off with "they never should arise" and are done with it.
+ Show Spoiler +Talking about demotion to 4th is distracting. Let's concentrate on the topic at hand. Stephano should have never left. Whatever happened after that bears to consequence on the simple fact that it's unprofessional of him to leave a tournament, especially at this stage. And you speak of forfeiting games as if it were somehow acceptable in sport, but it surely is not. Only major injuries lead to forfeits in real sports with real professionals. The fact that it happens in SC2 is a very bad sign and it should be uniformly denounced by everyone for the good of the community.
my note: this paragraph I consider to be clarified in your first post Edit: No, not personal values. The bar, ethics councils, regulatory bodies, etc. have all grown out of a set of common criteria that specify what is deemed acceptable. With esports, the growth of these criteria and their regulatio is slow and apparently not painless. But the criteria should be no different from any sport. If you sign up to play, you play. If you pull a Tevez, expect harsh Last edit: 2012-01-30 14:54:13 punishments. And I still don't understand how anyone could find Stephano's actions acceptable as a maxim. In order of occurrence of bold parts: 1) A plain statement. Your opinion. 2) Again a statement. I believe you tie this reasoning with the infamous 4th aspect of your definition of professional. But again, the preparation and mindset going into a tournament (which Stephano failed) is separate from the decision to leave. You have provided a sound reasoning on how Stephano didn't live up to the duty of being well-prepared, but no argument on why the act of leaving is fundamentally immoral. 3) The retirement summary of tennis season '11 includes at least two incidences of fatigue and several others without any further reason given.
+ Show Spoiler +If morality is subjective, I deem you worthy of being painted pink. And you know I'm right, because whatever my personal values say, is ok, right? So when I find you, and I paint you pink, you'll have to admit that I'm right to do so. + Show Spoiler +You still get painted pink... Or, in more Hobbesian terms, killed by the superior or the inferior. It's odd how first refer to customary law and rightfully outline how it's an organic process of culminating different opinions and common practice and then declare your view on the matter as the status quo.
+ Show Spoiler +Now I've heard everything. The right to forfeit?! Next time you don't feel like going to school, or to a business meeting or finishing a deadline on a project, claim the right to forfeit. Then, go back the next day and see how welcome you are (hint, the result is proportional to how many people it affected). And in sports its made much worse because tournament organizers rely on players to compete for a tournament to take place and, worse, because forfeiting matches is closely connected to match-fixing, and we should all know how detrimental that can be to a sport both from Broodwar and from other sports like sumo. So, no, there isn't a right to forfeit. There are cases when a forfeit is inevitable (injuries, flights cancelled) but random forfeits should not be accepted as a norm by this community. And the result of a forfeit should always be the same, it's realistically the same as never attending the tournament. I'm surprised that a forfeit can make you any amount of money. I expect in the future there to be hefty fines in place to guarantee that players never forfeit.
P.S. And no, it would not be ok to just drone rush/6 pool all those games. That also cheats the organizers and fans out of real games. In order of occurrence of bold parts: 1) You completely ignore the constraints of physical possibility. If you can not fulfill the deadline, you can't fulfill the deadline. You loose the project due to mismanagement, but you surely are not punished for not extending the hours of the day above 24. To stay with the analogy, there still is the formulation of the "project goal", which you failed to achieve. You touch on that matter later. 2) It is your proposal of a "project goal", though a fairly reasonable one. However, it is a very one-sided one. It puts the well-being of the event over anything else. Other possible goals would prioritize tournament format integrity, fair competitive conditions and player protection over revenue. There is no definite answer to this. To say a player has zero duty to the fans and organizers is equally wrong as a strict "the show must go on. when in doubt, players must make the concessions and organizers not" 3) This is a valid concern. 4) 1)+2) challenge your conclusion 5) Your personal view. 6) Define "real game"
+ Show Spoiler +Didn't we have this discussion already on pages 93-95? No punishment is at issue here, I believe that in the future there should be, but at the moment the crucial question is what is the right thing in this situation. Stephano, in my mind clearly, did the wrong thing by disregarding fans and tournament organizers. The tournament organizers didn't do anything too bad in return, so we can ignore that at the moment. And I think this case gives the basis to argue that in the future forfeits from tournaments should be met with a) punishments b) ethics investigations to check that there's no match-fixing. The way to "fix" the balance of power issue you mention is to have another regulatory body, in other cases, the rule of thumb is that those doing the work (volunteers and organizers) get to decide, while those that walk away (here: Stephano) forfeit their right to decide. In order of occurrence of bold parts: 1) Yes, but nothing really came out of it. 2) There was a punishment. The lesson is there should be a coherent code of conduct in the future. 3) Repeat, but yes, by not being prepared. Not by leaving. If he just falls asleep, only a gun to his head can make him play. 4) They fined him 600$ for the fact of leaving. 5) That's all that's needed. I'm even fine with tournaments saying "Forfeit at any stage leads to disqualification" as a measure of self-protection. It is within the power of the player to vote by participation and therefore contribute their own opinion to the discussion and a possible finding of a common ground. A problem only occurs when ruling is still made on the fly, especially in a matter that has not been uncommon in the history of the industry.
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On February 01 2012 00:01 kidd wrote: He forfeited. So what? I mean it sucks for the fans and the organization, but it's just a forfeit. Get over it. ONOG dealt with it appropriately to still get a finals match.
Exactly. It's somewhat surprising that there's 62 forum pages about this, yet at the same time not surprising at all.
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