So I've been thinking about this for a little while. In Starcraft 2, two different team-league formats have been dominating the scene. One being the set match format, where the matches are pre-set before the games. In 2012 we see this format used in NASTL, and I think it is gonna be used in the new season of EG Masters Cup Series League.
In the second format, used in IPLTAC2 and GSTL among others, the team that loses the first game, choose which player to send out against the winner of the previous game, opening the possibility of a player all-killing the other team, one example being the former FXO player qxc's all-kill of Incredible Miracle.
Bo7 and bo9 is most common in the second format, while the set match format usually have 4 bo3s with a bo3 ace-match if the results are 2-2 after 4 sets.
Which format do you, TL, prefer? I think I prefer the format GSL and IPL use, as I find it makes for better storylines. Also, I think it's quite exciting to see which player gets chosen to play the winner of the previous match. On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
Poll: Which team-league format do you prefer?
Format of GSTL and IPLTAC2 (700)
77%
Format of NASTL and EGMCSL7 (176)
19%
Other (write down below) (35)
4%
911 total votes
Your vote: Which team-league format do you prefer?
(Vote): Format of GSTL and IPLTAC2 (Vote): Format of NASTL and EGMCSL7 (Vote): Other (write down below)
Edit: I quickly went over the first 6 pages of comments and I counted 42 comments in favor of winners league format and 32 in favor of Proleague format or NASTL.
So while only 20% in the poll votes for the NASTL format, 44% of the commenters find this to be the best. Oh and I know the Proleague system isn't exactly the same as the NASTL or EGMCSL one, but I think the people who says Proleague has voted for the 2nd option anyway, as there are not that many votes in the "other" option.
Why this is one can only speculate. Perhaps the supporters of the Proleague format have been around for longer, so they are more inclined to put their individual opinions in the comment section and not just vote in the poll. Or it could be that supporters of the losing format (in terms of the poll) feel like they need to voice their opinion in the comment section to make it clear that the poll is not correct in their opinion.
Or perhaps they are like Metallica fans who shit all over TBA because it's not "metal" enough for them and the fact that it got so popular no longer made them fringe elements or in the minority if you will
Anyways, just a fun little observation, not intended to be read into very thoroughly.
Oh and that last possibility was a joke, just to make it clear..
Good poll to bring up. I think at the current state of things, the all-kill format is better. But seeing MvP vs IM or something I think a NASTL/BW format is better. Basically, you shouldn't be able to win team leagues just because one player is baller. This also makes a lot more sense to have a strong team and not just strong individuals.
I enjoy both more than I do individual leagues but between the two formats I definitely like the set match format better because it allows the players to prepare rather than just be sent in to snipe someone. I think it provides better games however it does drain some story by not allowing all-kills.
All Kill format > a few BO3 series with an ace match > a few BO1 matches with an ace match.
Having said that though the All-Kill format is just a lot better, the other ones feel more like a 1v1 that you happen to play in a team then a genuine team league.
good idea for a poll but actually horrible poll since egmcsl7 is a different format than NASTL nastl is Bo1 what makes the format awful but egmcsl is bo3 as far as i know and this format is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better
i don't like the ipl tac format too much eventhough it is very exciting to watch i think that it is not as good of a measure of the skill of one team because if one team has one or two good players they win a lot vs teams with a lot of good but not super-very good players...
i hope that some day we will settle down on the nastl format with bo3 instead of bo1
On February 18 2012 06:09 sVnteen wrote: good idea for a poll but actually horrible poll since egmcsl7 is a different format than NASTL nastl is Bo1 what makes the format awful but egmcsl is bo3 as far as i know and this format is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better
i hope that some day we will settle down on the nastl format with bo3 instead of bo1
I see your point but the concept of NASTL and EGMCSL is basicly the same. If I was to divide those into two different poll-options it would muddle up the poll somewhat.
I like the all-kill format better by far. The proleague format is just like, lets play a bunch of 1v1s and see which team wins the most. It's not much different than cheering for your favorite team in an individual tournament.
The all-kill format has the added depth of who you send out next, snipers, closers and most importantly the marathon achievement that is an all-kill. Would MMA or DRG have become the stars that they are now if they only won 1 game for their team every match. No, it was the recognition they got from consistent 3,4,all-kills in the GSTL that got them invited to foreign tournaments and gave them the confidence to break into code A and code S.
I feel if you want to see the best TEAM you have to choose ProLeague Format.
Winners League is fun to watch but more times than not just shows how good the top players are in comparison to everyone else. Team MvP would have gotten crushed in ProLeague format imo because DRG could only win 1 or 2 games depending on ace match or not.
I really like all kill, provides for epic comebacks, much much MUCH more exciting format, for example the AK format provided the AWESOME TL vs. Prime series.
I'm perfectly happy with either one but I prefer the all-kill format. It's fun to watch a player go on a tear and see how many guys on the other team he can take down before he's stopped (if he's stopped at all).
NASTL. Its a team league for a reason. You may have a team who wins a league just because they have 1-2 great players who can all kill just about any team and that doesn't show the true strengths of their team, just the strength of that particular player.
On February 18 2012 06:22 Balgrog wrote: I really like all kill, provides for epic comebacks, much much MUCH more exciting format, for example the AK format provided the AWESOME TL vs. Prime series.
Indeed, also I think newer players get much more exposure that way. I mean that's sometimes the point I feel with team leagues, especially GSTL where you see newer players with a lot of talent show themselves.
On February 18 2012 06:20 Recoil wrote: Winners League is fun to watch but more times than not just shows how good the top players are in comparison to everyone else. Team MvP would have gotten crushed in ProLeague format imo because DRG could only win 1 or 2 games depending on ace match or not.
Genius and sC?
Anyways i like the all kill format better. Makes for fun stories
The allkill format has tension and excitement till the very end (even if its 4:0 you can still cheer for the other guy or you can applaud the allkill), while the other format has a good potential to be meh when one team dominates and wins 2-3 matches in a row. Also its nice to have the active coaching/team leader strategy element in it, because they can decide which player has the best chances to defeat the opponent instead of being paired beforehand.
Also the allkill format is a good basis for real starplayers to be born, and I think the consensus about which players are good and which players are bad still changes way too much, some players quickly get neglected because they don't play tournaments for a short period of time or because of 1 tournament result. We need more heroes!
All kill is much more entertaining for me, especially if the teams are more or less even in skill. Sure, one player might be on a crazy roll, but I'd say that's how other team sports work as well - individuals can win games or even tournaments, if they are in perfect shape and if the opposing team cannot find a way to eliminate the threat.
I feel like the NASTL form is too predictable. All of the players know who is facing who so it makes it pretty easy to predict who can win. For example, just the match a few weeks before, Oz vs Flo, well we all knew Oz was gonna win. It's been working so far in the NASTL because in general, everyone is around the same level in skill and there's room for upsets. In general, however, I don't think it's such a great idea.
EDIT: I feel it also allows room for breakout performances. For example, qxc's all kill of team IM. What if qxc only played one match? He's gotta kill them all to show it's not a fluke.
On February 18 2012 06:32 Bommes wrote: The allkill format has tension and excitement till the very end (even if its 4:0 you can still cheer for the other guy or you can applaud the allkill), while the other format has a good potential to be meh when one team dominates and wins 2-3 matches in a row. Also its nice to have the active coaching/team leader strategy element in it, because they can decide which player has the best chances to defeat the opponent instead of being paired beforehand.
Also the allkill format is a good basis for real starplayers to be born, and I think the consensus about which players are good and which players are bad still changes way too much, some players quickly get neglected because they don't play tournaments for a short period of time or because of 1 tournament result. We need more heroes!
Not really true, a proleague series can go 3-0 and revert the result. It doesn't even needo to be 3-0 but 3-1 and it's almost the same.
It's really interesting how most of the sc2 viewers prefer AK format while old BW people mostly favor proleague
I also disagree with your idea of the strategy in AK/WL, i like the map preparations and snipes of proleague format more than the player sendout in the other format.
In conclusion i think it's really better to use both in a round robin league, since it tests both the players preparation and their ability to play against every opponent and every map when needed
I personally prefer Pokemon format simply because I feel it is a tad bit more 'fun' than ProLeague format. The only issue I have with Pokemon format is that it doesn't truly show who the better team is due to all-kills/multiple-kills.
I like the fact that not all tournaments are exactly the same (different BoXs, different formats, etc.), but if I had to choose one, I think a Bo7 or Bo9 king of the hill (possible all-kill) format is my favorite
On February 18 2012 06:39 mvtaylor wrote: Can anyone actually explain how ProLeague is different from the options shown?
I looked through liquipedia and the current pro league format is identical to the NASTL and EGMCSL7
Personally I like the GSTL / IPL TAC winner stays on format far more, it's pretty fun to see one player crush an entire team
Well, right now it's different since it doesn't have ace match, but when people say Proleague format they basically mean bo5 or bo7 with ace, set being bo1
GSTL is much better as it includes much more strategy with loosers map pick and they know who they gona play against giving some crazy snipers using some crazy builds made against certain players playstyles
I think both have a place, and both formats should be explored, but if I had to choose one, it would be all-kill format.
All-kill formats showcase something fundamentally different that we do not see in individual leagues. Individual leagues tend to showcase a player's ability to prepare and execute. All-kill formats showcase a player's ability to adapt well to changing situations. Preparation has a role, but on-the-fly adaptation also plays a large role.
All-kill formats also add an additional element of strategic depth. The losing team knows who is up, and can adjust who they send out based on the specifics of the match-up. It's also a great way for lesser known/popular pros (like FXO vs MVP or TL vs Prime) to show their skill through multiple kills. These become more than 1v1 matches as coaches select the most appropriate player for the match up (e.g. current player has great PvZ and PvT but weak PvP, send out our best PvP toss!), or throw curve balls with map + player combinations. It's this extra layer that brings the team element into focus.
You do run some risk of 'star power' coming into play, but the truth of the matter is one player can only carry you so far, even in the team league because you'd absolutely exhaust one player trying to prepare specifically and entirely for an opposing team across all map combinations. He isn't going to beat every sniper sent at him consecutively, where the sniper not only has the build advantage and possibly match-up advantages, but also the map advantage!
All-kill formats are also better shows and storyline. You can really get behind the momentum of players whether it's rooting for bomber to complete that all-kill or the underdog as he tears through 3 known code-S caliber players in a row.
On February 18 2012 06:39 mvtaylor wrote: Can anyone actually explain how ProLeague is different from the options shown?
I looked through liquipedia and the current pro league format is identical to the NASTL and EGMCSL7
Personally I like the GSTL / IPL TAC winner stays on format far more, it's pretty fun to see one player crush an entire team
Well, right now it's different since it doesn't have ace match, but when people say Proleague format they basically mean bo5 or bo7 with ace, set being bo1
Pretty much. The all-kill format has a name, but the other format doesn't really have one.
I prefer the bo1 set map format as it gives the opportunity or seeing more of the players from teams, and no longer do teams get carried to an all kill win by 1 player, sure its fun when it happens. but it doesn't really feel like a team event when there's 1 or 2 super strong players all killing ,and the rest are subpar and we never get to see play
I think that the proleague format will mean that the more rounded and deeper team line up that prepared more will be more succesful. The all kill format I feel creates much better storylines such as the qxc all kill on IM and other similar things.
Proleague format is better because you get to see more of the TEAM. It's a TEAM league. not a " our best player will kill everyone " league.
also, you're going to get a lot of people in here that never watched bw and don't understand why the NASTL format is good, so the poll is going to be a landslide.
I used to prefer winners league format, but my opinion has changed recently ;/
When 2 people know their map they're gonna have some good builds prepared for it. As such, proleague will give the viewers better games than winners league.
I'm partial to the PL/NASTL format. It's really a test of the strength, preparation, and composition of the entire team. A bit more wholistic style of competition. Granted, the IPL format does give a benefit to teams who invest in high level players, and that is a good thing, teams should be rewarded for shelling out the big bucks. But in theory, a team with 4 bronze level players and MMA could win the IPL team league; and that sort of defeats the point of a "team league"
Still though I don't want to see the IPL change. The fact that they have different formats and matchup styles, in my mind, gives a reason for them both to exist. If they both went to the same format, I don't know that there would be a reason to watch both (after all you'd be seeing the same matches a second time).
I prefer the All-kill format but the other format is really important. Since some teams might find it hard to set times all matchups can be played individually at the player's convenience. Then the tournament can cast from the replays.
On February 18 2012 06:20 Recoil wrote: Winners League is fun to watch but more times than not just shows how good the top players are in comparison to everyone else. Team MvP would have gotten crushed in ProLeague format imo because DRG could only win 1 or 2 games depending on ace match or not.
Genius and sC?
Anyways i like the all kill format better. Makes for fun stories
At the time of the last Team league sC was on fou and genius was ok but not what he was at Blizzcon 2010 or now.
DRG was 13-2 in the last team league, 3-0 vs Slayers, 3-0 vs oGs, 4-0 vs Prime, 0-1 vs TSL, and 3-1 vs IM.
I prefer either the old Proleague Format with 6 matches and then a ace match, or All Kill Format, except that not elimination but through league system, kind of like Season 1 2011 or current proleague system 2011, Oh and Best of 11 Finals please :D
Proleague format is much better, hence why Proleague has dropped winner's league. Its just not fun watching Flash take down a team by himself, and I prefer that the better team wins, and not the 'lol im so good' players.
Personally i would love to see some more bw style teamleague. Set maps Players chosen for match x have to be set after match x-1 And what i personally liked from the 2009 season: One player for each race.
All kill format with set maps would be great too, but im getting sick of all kill format. To much
GSTL format all the way. It feels more like a team competition to me, with coaches pulling out snipers and up-and-comers. I like the possibility of an all-kill or reversal by one player.
All-kill format opens a window for new players to rise and sniper like Tails who beat both Nestea and MVP. More games could be played if 2 teams were equally good.
As many stated, its a team league. You shouldnt be able to come very far just by one strong player. => Proleague format
But I would like a different format to pick the players. We get so many mirrors if teams just pick based on maps. For example: teams post players, order gets randomized (you may or may not let the loser pick the map)
The main problem with winners league I have is how a single player can just absolutely dominate it. For example, in the most recent IPL TAC; Hasuobs had just tied up the game and had put Mouz put ahead by 1 game, then oGs sends out Vines who proceeded to just win the whole thing himself.
That and pretty much every other team league was an all-kill format.
I think that the all-kill format is definitely fun, but it allows for single players to dominate the competition too much. Overall, I prefer the proleague format because it tests the strength of the team.
Reading trough the comments most of the people say that all-kill format has more strategy in some way and it gives opportunities to unknown players, when in reality, both formats offer similar strategic depth and the same chances for snipes and new players to rise
On February 18 2012 07:10 1Eris1 wrote: Just a note.
Proleague format=/= NASTL format.
Proleague format is the selection of the players on the spot, which adds a completely different level to the mix.
Does it really though?
It's still professional gamers doing a bo1, then two different players doing another bo1, then another 2players in a bo1 etc then ace match if tied after Y games... I don't see how being picked on the spot seriously changes the dynamic.
All-kill format has an obvious stable equilibrium: you have an opener, snipers, and a closer. Deviating from this formula rarely make sense.
The Proleague format has infinite unstable equilibriums: there're no immediately obvious ideal way a coach should arrange your lineup. However, if you study the way the opponent's tendencies and guess correctly, you can consistently order your own lineup to your advantage. This adds depth to lineup decisions, since tailoring matters. Even more, when both sides engage in these strategizing, lineups suddenly becomes a game of constant sudden guessing.
This makes line-up a whole different game all together, which unfortunately largely invisible to the audience.
On February 18 2012 07:10 1Eris1 wrote: Just a note.
Proleague format=/= NASTL format.
Proleague format is the selection of the players on the spot, which adds a completely different level to the mix.
Does it really though?
It's still professional gamers doing a bo1, then two sperate ones doing another bo1, then another bo1 etc then ace match if tied after Y games... I don't see how being picked on the spot seriously changes the dynamic.
It does change the dynamic. Though I would agree they are the same type of format, just maybe different variations of that format.
Surprised at the poll, I guess the chance of all-kills outweighs finding out who the deepest team is. Also outweighs the better games that the preparation the players get going into their match.
im happy with both. if all were like gstl it wouldnt be as exciting, and if all were like nastl, it wouldnt be as exciting. having both keeps things entertaining imo
All-kills are entertaining but the Proleague format is just simply better. It actually shows which team is better and not if 1 team has a player which can go beastmode on all the others.
Adding to the "Proleague format" chorus, it should've in the OP poll. Matches either bo5, or bo7 with ace match, both works for me. I also like it better when individual sets are bo1.
All-kill format isn't bad, really, but doesn't reward team strength as well.
My only absolute vetos are bo3 individual sets and 2v2s, both are very boring.
I like both and it would be quite sad if every tournament chose the same format. There are so many team leagues out there, also smaller leagues but even if you just take a look at the big ones, IPL, NASL and EGMC. They share a lot of their invites, so if everyone used (for example) all-kill format, we would likely see the same matches over and over again, maybe with a different outcome, but it would be much too similar.
The way it is now is great, there's enough variety that everyone is happy.
I'm not fussy at all about formats, though I do have to question people who are praising the current BW PL format. Single games, Bo5, with no ace match is completely terrible. The old Bo7 with an ace was great, but the new one seems purely designed to nerf Flash (not like it worked!) but makes the 5th game dull as the best players are most often used earlier. I think All-kill is most exciting, but the EGMC (with Bo3's between each player) lets the best team win, so they're both great!
I really wish a league would try out Dream League Format. Pretty much 3 to 5 1v1s and the players who win their 1v1 game are available for Winner's League/NGL/All kill format.
All kill format brings a lot more emotion, in my opinion, than the Proleague style (see FXO vs MVP last night, that shit was hilarious.) The proleague style is definitely valid and should be used, but there's something dramatic about a best of 9 all kill that Proleague style can't quite capture.
On February 18 2012 07:10 1Eris1 wrote: Just a note.
Proleague format=/= NASTL format.
Proleague format is the selection of the players on the spot, which adds a completely different level to the mix.
Does it really though?
It's still professional gamers doing a bo1, then two different players doing another bo1, then another 2players in a bo1 etc then ace match if tied after Y games... I don't see how being picked on the spot seriously changes the dynamic.
Maps and matchups are maybe more significant in BW.
All-kill format is retarded and doesn't reward depth in a team as much as the Proleague format. Proleague format will produce better games, and allow players to present better and deeper builds/strategies. It will also allow for more consistently from teams -- you're going to see less volatility from teams, since the all-kill format relies heavily on momentum and luck on the part of the player.
It's nice to see every now and then. When Proleague did a round of the all-kill format in the middle of Proleague, it was awesome. It was a nice break, though, is all it was. The standard PL format is superior.
On February 18 2012 07:15 nooboon wrote: The main problem with winners league I have is how a single player can just absolutely dominate it. For example, in the most recent IPL TAC; Hasuobs had just tied up the game and had put Mouz put ahead by 1 game, then oGs sends out Vines who proceeded to just win the whole thing himself.
That and pretty much every other team league was an all-kill format.
That's why I love the all kill format so much. Makes it much more exciting and I love seeing players go on a roll and have the other team try to stop them. I don't like seeing one and done pre determined matchups.
Yes, pro league format rewards team depth as you can't rely on one ace, but it's also a lot more boring to watch. I want to see nerds get crushed and have someone try to stop them by beating them, not having them taken out cause the format doesn't allow them to play more.
On February 18 2012 07:38 MCDayC wrote: I'm not fussy at all about formats, though I do have to question people who are praising the current BW PL format. Single games, Bo5, with no ace match is completely terrible. The old Bo7 with an ace was great, but the new one seems purely designed to nerf Flash (not like it worked!) but makes the 5th game dull as the best players are most often used earlier. I think All-kill is most exciting, but the EGMC (with Bo3's between each player) lets the best team win, so they're both great!
I can't speak for anyone else but i prefer the current proleague format cause it puts emphasis on the team rather then 1 player. There was a time when MVP only got as high thanks to DRG who basically solo'd his way to victory. I rather see that during the solo league and more focus on the team during a team league.
On February 18 2012 07:52 PH wrote: Poll is depressing.
All-kill format is retarded and doesn't reward depth in a team as much as the Proleague format. Proleague format will produce better games, and allow players to present better and deeper builds/strategies. It will also allow for more consistently from teams -- you're going to see less volatility from teams, since the all-kill format relies heavily on momentum and luck on the part of the player.
It's nice to see every now and then. When Proleague did a round of the all-kill format in the middle of Proleague, it was awesome. It was a nice break, though, is all it was. The standard PL format is superior.
as the perspective of someone who did not follow the bw scene in korea i want to see blood. i want players who can kill teams to be pointed out and put into the spotlight.
i´ve read in the "elephant in the room" thread and read that there were players training weeks, on one map, this one strategy just to snipe players like flash or jd. and those so called bonjwas defeated them all. that shit made me feel excited just thinking about it. we´ve yet to see that in sc2, and besides nostalgic sadness and pointing out sc2 is for idiots, i feel like this is the only format where players truly can show they are superior. they can beat a hole team. thats a statement this player makes. and besides winning a major tournament where else can he achieve something like this?
sure you can say he is lucky or others are in a bad shape. but you dont get lucky on this high level as far as luck is understood by normal people like me. and the shape and "fitness" of a player is in my opinion a skill that is part of the highes level. i cant go to work overslept either. well id do but.. aynway..
as a spectator i want to see blood, tears and teams getting demolished by one player. this is what it makes watching games exciting for me. i dont think about "the growth" of esports or anything. i also dont care about learing aaaal that much because id rather watch replays if i want to.
so for me the format is not retarded. it´s exciting. otherwise its just the same thing as single elimiation to some point.
Hm i can't really answer on this question because i like pretty much all formats. It's pretty nice to play every type of format as a player and get used to it.
On February 18 2012 07:38 MCDayC wrote: I'm not fussy at all about formats, though I do have to question people who are praising the current BW PL format. Single games, Bo5, with no ace match is completely terrible. The old Bo7 with an ace was great, but the new one seems purely designed to nerf Flash (not like it worked!) but makes the 5th game dull as the best players are most often used earlier. I think All-kill is most exciting, but the EGMC (with Bo3's between each player) lets the best team win, so they're both great!
Pretty sure most of us who says PL says the old system with Bo7. The current proleague format is pretty terrible
I would like to see more Bo7 with ace match in sc2, theres far to much emphasize on teams with a few solid players than a solid roster in all kill formats
I've always liked winners league format over PL format so I quite enjoy the all-kill possibilities in GSTL. It's nonsense to claim we don't see a deep roster with winners league especially when so many unknowns first made their names there. DRG, MMA, alive, Sage, Finale, etc. I doubt the hype around DRG would have been as high if he'd just won his single match every time MVP was up. I might have a little bitter aftertaste for the current PL format though, I really don't enjoy it like I used to.
Let me start off by saying, I do not like NASTL's format, but I love EGMCSL format. I feel like if you use a format like that, it cannot be bo1. A combination of bad maps, cheese, and some other factors make the bo1 really bad imo. Having them be bo3 really improves that.
I also like the GSTL/IPLTAC format. Its exciting, who doesn't love all-kills? But at the same time, your team can be horrible with 1 great player and get by. Kinda takes away from the team feeling.
Ultimately I am glad we have both as it keeps it fresh for viewer.
On February 18 2012 07:38 MCDayC wrote: I'm not fussy at all about formats, though I do have to question people who are praising the current BW PL format. Single games, Bo5, with no ace match is completely terrible. The old Bo7 with an ace was great, but the new one seems purely designed to nerf Flash (not like it worked!) but makes the 5th game dull as the best players are most often used earlier. I think All-kill is most exciting, but the EGMC (with Bo3's between each player) lets the best team win, so they're both great!
Pretty sure most of us who says PL says the old system with Bo7. The current proleague format is pretty terrible
I would like to see more Bo7 with ace match in sc2, theres far to much emphasize on teams with a few solid players than a solid roster in all kill formats
As would I. I also like having rounds and just more games period. The current BW PL is a joke to what it was in years past. The All-Kill format I can live with for 1 round, but not when the entire league is built around it and bring back the REAL ACE match.
People are overstating the effect one player has on the all-kill format. How many times do we see players in individual leagues drop one game of a Bo5/7, even when they are clearly the better player? One misclick and you're out, you can't finish them off next game like you can when you drop a game up 2-0. It's really really hard to be so perfect that you win every single game. Factor in snipers, and it's even harder.
Besides which, shouldn't the best players influence outcomes more? I Want a match between, say, IM and Prime to come down to MarineKing vs MvP, not Terious vs Yoda.
On February 18 2012 08:16 Boiler Bandsman wrote: People are overstating the effect one player has on the all-kill format. How many times do we see players in individual leagues drop one game of a Bo5/7, even when they are clearly the better player? One misclick and you're out, you can't finish them off next game like you can when you drop a game up 2-0. It's really really hard to be so perfect that you win every single game. Factor in snipers, and it's even harder.
Besides which, shouldn't the best players influence outcomes more? I Want a match between, say, IM and Prime to come down to MarineKing vs MvP, not Terious vs Yoda.
It happened before. DRG pretty much solo'd team MVP to 2nd place (almost victory) during one of the earlier seasons. (yes I know the team has a lot of good players now, but just to prove a point)
On February 18 2012 08:16 Boiler Bandsman wrote: People are overstating the effect one player has on the all-kill format. How many times do we see players in individual leagues drop one game of a Bo5/7, even when they are clearly the better player? One misclick and you're out, you can't finish them off next game like you can when you drop a game up 2-0. It's really really hard to be so perfect that you win every single game. Factor in snipers, and it's even harder.
Besides which, shouldn't the best players influence outcomes more? I Want a match between, say, IM and Prime to come down to MarineKing vs MvP, not Terious vs Yoda.
MvP was a pretty terrible team when they got 2. place in one of the first GSTL, if DRG dint carry them really hard they wouldnt have reached 2. place
On February 18 2012 08:12 xBillehx wrote: I've always liked winners league format over PL format so I quite enjoy the all-kill possibilities in GSTL. It's nonsense to claim we don't see a deep roster with winners league especially when so many unknowns first made their names there. DRG, MMA, alive, Sage, Finale, etc. I doubt the hype around DRG would have been as high if he'd just won his single match every time MVP was up. I might have a little bitter aftertaste for the current PL format though, I really don't enjoy it like I used to.
I agree, although there are benefits to the current PL format, currently I feel because the SC2 scene is still young and teams are full of talent that hasn't been put into the spotlight, such as Finale this season and DRG, MMA, Creator in previous seasons the current system in the GSTL allows for players to create storylines and hype for themselves which benefits the scene more in my opinion..
Ok I agree with old pro league best of 7 format with ace match, with players picked on the spot not like nastl, it provides a better viewing of the teams strength not like dongraegu all kill, but still the all kill format is entertaining
I prefer the NASTL format, reminds me of Proleague, I must preferred it as a spectator but with the GSTL format you can have some really amazing series, but at the same time, some really boring ones.
I don't understand this term All-Kill format. It's called Winner's League! I wish each organaziation would embrace it as Winner's League because that's exactly what it is. I would prefer a mandatory 2v2 element once balanced 2v2 maps have been created. I miss competitive 2v2 very very much!
On February 18 2012 08:49 onedayclose wrote: I don't understand this term All-Kill format. It's called Winner's League! I wish each organaziation would embrace it as Winner's League because that's exactly what it is. I would prefer a mandatory 2v2 element once balanced 2v2 maps have been created. I miss competitive 2v2 very very much!
Watching competitive 2v2 matches with pro sc2 players would be pretty sick
On February 18 2012 06:07 Lyter wrote: Proleague format
When you say Proleague format do you mean the current one or the old one?
Current one = no player can make a reappearance Old one = any player can play
The old one had more games but essentially gave 2 free wins with teams that had a player like Flash or Dong The newer one shows more players but it does have some situations where teams essentially send a B-teamer vs Flash just to sacrifice what would be a loss anyway in order to try and win 3-1 or 3-2 against KT. Maybe no Ace + no repeat players but make it Bo7, but then you get into issues with the maps xd
IDK which is better but Winners league creates storyline and is more unpredictable, but it must be in Round Robin and then brackets. The current Proleague is pretty bad imho. Also the NASTL format is bad because it's only bo5 with ace match at the and - every team needs 2 great players and everything is OK.
i like the old proleague format but some teams just dont take team leagues as seriously clearly so it ends up not workig as well. too many teams have just aces they send out
All kill formats aren't so much about team depth as they are about creating excitement for the fans and building storylines, which I feel is better for ESPORTS. In terms of competition, the alternative format is better, but I can't help but enjoy the GSTL better.
The last of GSTL's I watched have comfirmed my dislike for the winner's league format. Even though Bomber and Marineking are 2 of my favourite players, watching a deep and new team like Hoseo get demolished by 1 person wasn't really interesting to watch.
Everything but king of the hill format its dumb => PL format all the way I think the game will improve alot only of that I hope GSTL understands it also. Remember back in the days when teams practiced only to snipe Flash ? Helped each other with replays and other insides just to beat him. We had great games with Flash struggling to beat the snipers. Look what happend now because of that we have a Godlike player in BW. Why not have the same in SC2 ? Insted of sending Bomber first and he 5-0ing the NSHS team without them having any answer and just rellying on "standard" skills and games to beat him. I think also the practice will be much easier if every league picks up BW format because players will need to practice only 1 map for GSTL/Team league and 1 matchup. There can be huge mind games who to send and when by knowing that X is best on Y map and this will bring amazing games.
Proleague format has way more depth, allkill format is good for occasional change of pace, but I'm getting really bored of it. You also don't get those unknown players pulling off a clutch snipe and so on.
On February 18 2012 21:35 Severus_ wrote: Everything but king of the hill format its dumb => PL format all the way I think the game will improve alot only of that I hope GSTL understands it also. Remember back in the days when teams practiced only to snipe Flash ? Helped each other with replays and other insides just to beat him. We had great games with Flash struggling to beat the snipers. Look what happend now because of that we have a Godlike player in BW. Why not have the same in SC2 ? Insted of sending Bomber first and he 5-0ing the NSHS team without them having any answer and just rellying on "standard" skills and games to beat him. I think also the practice will be much easier if every league picks up BW format because players will need to practice only 1 map for GSTL/Team league and 1 matchup. There can be huge mind games who to send and when by knowing that X is best on Y map and this will bring amazing games.
You enjoyed watching a teams as pathetic as KT and Hwaseung win over and over because they had ONE good player and prayed that one of their non-All Star shitty players got them to an ace match? (Of course this is back during the KTFlash and Jaedong Oz era...)
Sure, for fans who care for none but the highest stars Winners League format is great, but for players who want to make names for themselves and teams that want depth of roster rather than single superstars WL format is terrible.
We don't WANT SC2 to become a game with a few top progamers and then a raggle of meandering weaklings, we want a serious competitive game, don't we?
I just don't feel like WL format is conducive to strengthening ESPORTS. (Meaning, we shouldn't want to have our already closed off genre of gaming to become even more closed off because of the talent of a few players)
Though, to be honest, I guess we should just have it as it is now, different leagues with different formats.
Both have pros and cons, but in general, for a smaller and shorter event (like most SC2 teamleagues are) all-kill format is better, especially since there are a lot of teams and players but not many that really stand out. For a long-running event with more established teams, PL style is massively superior.
On February 18 2012 06:07 Lyter wrote: Proleague format
When you say Proleague format do you mean the current one or the old one?
Current one = no player can make a reappearance Old one = any player can play
What are you talking about?
Teams can still only send a player out once (except ace match). The only difference is lineups are no longer decided in advance (thanks to savior -_-).
On February 18 2012 23:14 dabom88 wrote: How exactly do you use Snipers in the PL format?
In general, in what order are the players picked?
You have to predict the map a player you want to snipe is going to play on, and have your sniper play on that map. Sniping is a lot more fun in PL format because it involves a lot of mind games when it comes to preparing the lineup.
In general, players are picked depending on the map and the predicted opponent. There are some other considerations, as in do you want your top players to play the first few maps, getting the psychological advantage of being in a 1-0 or 2-0 lead and putting pressure on the players opponent puts up next, or do you want to save them for the last game and the ace match, risking a 3-0 defeat if your first picks fall. You can choose to snipe their best players or dodge them (sacrifice a lesser player), etc.
There's a lot of fun just seeing how the lineups turn up, and it emphasizes the team aspect of the competition quite a bit more.
Proleague format is exciting, though it creates situations where a team with a star player like DRG can basically keep their team afloat by their own efforts. So less overall well rounded teams can get get by, much like KT in Brood War (though they're still performing exceptionally well the new format Proleague is using, the one NASTL and EGMCSL).
On February 18 2012 23:36 Meteora.GB wrote: Proleague format is exciting, though it creates situations where a team with a star player like DRG can basically keep their team afloat by their own efforts. So less overall well rounded teams can get get by, much like KT in Brood War (though they're still performing exceptionally well the new format Proleague is using, the one NASTL and EGMCSL).
AK format is way worse in that regard, just consider the number of double/triple/all-kills DRG got over the last few seasons, or what MMA used to get earlier on for Slayers. Top player playing only one or maybe two (with ace match) games in a BO7 is a lot worse for ace player teams than top player potentially playing up to 3 or 4 games.
I mean you can say that he's snipable if he comes out early, but realistically you can't snipe someone like Flash, and in SC2 I think sniping someone like DRG will be very difficult. No matter how many good vZers you send out against him, he's basically guaranteed to get a few kills before (if at all) he falls.
Although on a semi-related note, Proleague itself is exciting because teams are actually very well balanced and any team has a realistic chance of losing to any other team if the best players slip up. I'm not sure this would translate well to SC2 where there are massive gaps in roster quality that are difficult to overcome regardless of format.
Edit: I quickly went over the first 6 pages of comments and I counted 42 comments in favor of winners league format and 32 in favor of Proleague format or NASTL.
So while only 20% in the poll votes for the NASTL format, 44% of the commenters find this to be the best. Oh and I know the Proleague system isn't exactly the same as the NASTL or EGMCSL one, but I think the people who says Proleague has voted for the 2nd option anyway, as there are not that many votes in the "other" option.
Why this is one can only speculate. Perhaps the supporters of the Proleague format have been around for longer, so they are more inclined to put their individual opinions in the comment section and not just vote in the poll. Or it could be that supporters of the losing format (in terms of the poll) feel like they need to voice their opinion in the comment section to make it clear that the poll is not correct in their opinion.
Well, I voted the set match option, and I'm voicing my opinion because I have a couple (IMO) strong reasons why I think this is right. My guess as to why the other option is winning is because it's the GSTL format and that's the most prestigious tourney.
Anyway, I don't like the "losing team chooses map and player" format for a couple reasons:
1. This makes sniping too much of an option IMO. Sending out a specific player with a specific build for a specific matchup can create some very one-sided and uninteresting games. Basically, after a player wins a game, their next game is going to be their worst matchup on the worst possible map for them, against someone who likely has a special strategy prepared against them. What's the likelihood that that is going to be a good game?
2. For the teams that have players that are good enough to weather reason #1, it emphasizes the power of one player too much (again, IMO). I'd prefer if team leagues emphasized a strong team. The GSTL format emphasizes a Flash or a Jaedong over a Bisu/Fantasy/Best, or a Kal/Hwasin/Calm, along with a few up-and-coming rookies to make a deep lineup.
That said, I'd be fine with a compromise too. A kill format, where the winning player stays but the maps are preset (i.e. Winner's League) would be fine by me too. I just think choosing the matchup and the map might be a bit too much.
Edit: I quickly went over the first 6 pages of comments and I counted 42 comments in favor of winners league format and 32 in favor of Proleague format or NASTL.
So while only 20% in the poll votes for the NASTL format, 44% of the commenters find this to be the best. Oh and I know the Proleague system isn't exactly the same as the NASTL or EGMCSL one, but I think the people who says Proleague has voted for the 2nd option anyway, as there are not that many votes in the "other" option.
Why this is one can only speculate. Perhaps the supporters of the Proleague format have been around for longer, so they are more inclined to put their individual opinions in the comment section and not just vote in the poll. Or it could be that supporters of the losing format (in terms of the poll) feel like they need to voice their opinion in the comment section to make it clear that the poll is not correct in their opinion.
Well, I voted the set match option, and I'm voicing my opinion because I have a couple (IMO) strong reasons why I think this is right. My guess as to why the other option is winning is because it's the GSTL format and that's the most prestigious tourney.
Anyway, I don't like the "losing team chooses map and player" format for a couple reasons:
1. This makes sniping too much of an option IMO. Sending out a specific player with a specific build for a specific matchup can create some very one-sided and uninteresting games. Basically, after a player wins a game, their next game is going to be their worst matchup on the worst possible map for them, against someone who likely has a special strategy prepared against them. What's the likelihood that that is going to be a good game?
2. For the teams that have players that are good enough to weather reason #1, it emphasizes the power of one player too much (again, IMO). I'd prefer if team leagues emphasized a strong team. The GSTL format emphasizes a Flash or a Jaedong over a Bisu/Fantasy/Best, or a Kal/Hwasin/Calm, along with a few up-and-coming rookies to make a deep lineup.
That said, I'd be fine with a compromise too. A kill format, where the winning player stays but the maps are preset (i.e. Winner's League) would be fine by me too. I just think choosing the matchup and the map might be a bit too much.
I agree to this opinion about the criticisms of the GSTL format, along with the fact that it's a Best of 9. I believe that there's just too many games in order to show who is the best team, and dilutes the quality of the matches. Few teams would have 5 quality players that can consistently win, and the fans would have to endure more boring matches. This is why the new BW format cut down the games from Bo7 to Bo5, as fans would see more regular faces in the lineup.
On February 19 2012 07:26 MooMooMugi wrote: Why? Its so fun to see a player beat player after player even though the opposing team has the advantage of choosing the matchup+ map
On February 19 2012 11:20 babysimba wrote: They allow weaker teams to grow. Inexperienced players can be sent out with less pressure on them, knowing they have a reliable closers. Team DRG has now grown into what you see now. Team Prime is next (check out yesterday's ksl team league). They still have creator and byun (i assume he's good enough, 2-3 gm accounts of 80% win rates with macro-oriented play is no joke) after mkp.
And the post above of course. I can enjoy team leagues without caring much about cheeses or map/racial imbalance. The team with the more versatile lineup (to take advantages of maps) and come with more prepared strategies can win even without having the raw firepower of the opponent team.
Finally, until the maps get sorted out we shouldn't use the proleague format. Chances are that we will see tons of mirror matches (e.g zvz on dualsight and belshir, pvp on calm before the storm, tvt on antiga, etc)
I find the strategic aspect of player selections for ALL KILL format interesting. Each team needs 1 ace that can take down multiple players, a good opener, a good cheeser, and one sniper per vZvTvP. Then it's loser-pick for maps, too, another consideration. I find it more strategic than player selections in PL format.
I like both formats, but prefer the Proleague one. In my opinion, a team should not win all of their matches just because one player could repeatedly all kill, although I do see the other side of it allowing teams with one or two key players to compete (DRG with MVP before the team was as good as it is now ).
GSL should should switch between the two formats. Each day could have both a pro league bo5 and winners league best of 7 and it would be max of 12 games a day which is normal. They could even make the pro league a bo7 and it would be less then the 15 of the code S group stages.
Then you have a long epic league where every team plays eachother once in each format instead of this lame elimination stuff where we only get 2 or 3 games from most teams.
Other then that the real best format is this one.
game 1: sc2 game 2: sc2:bw game 3: hots custom game 4: 2v2 ace match: 4v4
Once totalbiscut finishes his trollobattles mod we can extend this to a bo7 by adding that and 3v3!
I will always enjoy proleague format way more than all kill format.I think all kill can be entertaining for like a round out of 3 rounds but having all kill format always isn't very appealing to me imo
Big Fan of ProLeague format. Especially after last years KT vs. SKT finals you see way more depth in a team as well who is really a clutch player and who isn't. Winners League format does have its place though, just not as enjoyable for me.
I like all-kill format because it emphasizes strategy, and has more interesting interactions. In proleague format, you can't have a specialist sniper train to win a particular matchup, or even train to take out a particular player. Snipers are necessary to deal with the problem of particularly dangerous players.
This makes the decision of who to send out a very interesting one. Suppose your opponent wins the first game by sending out a terran to defeat your zerg. Furthermore, this terran has a known weakness in tvp. You have a player who has been training as a pvt sniper, so you want to send him out. However, your pvt sniper is poor against zerg, and the enemy team has an excellent zerg who has yet to play. Do you send out your sniper, or do you send out a strong all-around player? It depends on how dangerous your initial terran opponent is, how good your sniper is, and how you feel about the rest of your lineup. There is a lot of decision making and drama involved with this system.
1) SC2 is about the superstars. People don't show up to the GOM studio to watch IM or Prime. They show up to watch Nestea, MVP and Marineking. Assuming the teams are taking the tournament seriously (admittedly not a safe assumption given past GSTL's) the all-kill format ensures the best players play at least once and probably more.
2) It's better for hype. Think of all the players who became famous from teamleagues. DRG, MMA, Losira, Sage, Tails, etc. None of this would have been possible without the chance to get multiple kills.
3) Fewer mirrors. In an ideal world all maps would be balanced and this wouldn't be an issue. Too bad it doesn't work like that in reality. The current BW proleague is filled with way too many mirrors because this season's map pool isn't as balanced as it could be. If lineups are preset, teams will send out a player of whichever race is OP on that particular map, creating lots of mirror matchups, and as we all know ZvZ and PvP suck.
4. More strategic. Proleague format is just a matter of picking a player on your team and having him prepare as much as he can for that specific map. All the strategy making happens before the game and behind the scenes. With all-kill format we get to dissect the minds of the coaches as the series unfolds and see just how well they adapt to unpredictable circumstances.
The main argument against all-kill format is that it allows a player to single handedly win everything for their team, thus taking the "team" out of teamleague. I do not feel this is a problem in SC2. Winner's league was disliked in BW because Flash, Bisu and Jaedong were so good there wasn't any point for non-fans of KT, Oz or SKT to watch. Nobody has reached that sort of unstoppable level in SC2, not yet anyways. Sure we still have 5-0 or 5-1 stompings, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that there are teams that just aren't very good like Zenex, TSL and Hoseo. Even with a proleague format they'd still get blown out of the water.
On February 18 2012 23:14 dabom88 wrote: How exactly do you use Snipers in the PL format?
In general, in what order are the players picked?
You have to predict the map a player you want to snipe is going to play on, and have your sniper play on that map. Sniping is a lot more fun in PL format because it involves a lot of mind games when it comes to preparing the lineup.
In general, players are picked depending on the map and the predicted opponent. There are some other considerations, as in do you want your top players to play the first few maps, getting the psychological advantage of being in a 1-0 or 2-0 lead and putting pressure on the players opponent puts up next, or do you want to save them for the last game and the ace match, risking a 3-0 defeat if your first picks fall. You can choose to snipe their best players or dodge them (sacrifice a lesser player), etc.
There's a lot of fun just seeing how the lineups turn up, and it emphasizes the team aspect of the competition quite a bit more.
Every format has its own niche way to create excitement though.
In WL format, you have to think about other balance too. Should we send our best player first to exhaust the other team rooster? Should we send 1 sniper, should we double snipers to get their best player because one is not sure enough? Should we send a player who can prolong the game as much as possible to stress out that particular player, so that the next one can snipe him? Should we try to bait that particular player out so that we can snipe?.v.v.v..v Hell, you can even do bm ceremony to bait a player out.
But WL is really shine in LAN events though. For online tournaments, it's a nightmare. With PL format, you can arrange players to play their games at different time, but with WL format, one game can't start if the other game doesn't finish yet, since you don't know the winner yet. It's a nightmare and may take the whole 1,2 months to just finish just 1 set.
On February 18 2012 06:05 cristo1122 wrote: i prefer the current proleague format focuses on having a balanced team rather than one player who just rolls face
This. I am kinda sad to see most people prefer the AK format . I wish GSTL would switch between 4 1v1 + ace match then next season of gstl would be winners league. Like BW does proleague and winners league. Sigh I can only dream.
I think it's cool for a player to "stay in" more exciting in my opinion. On the other hand, with the NASL teamleague format you get to see a wider variety of players.
I'm happy that both exist! Seeing desperate team versus team fights a la GSL is quite possibly the most fun kind of tournament in existence, but proleague is nice too, especially since we get to see 2v2 matches, and it works well for the...
On February 20 2012 12:56 red4ce wrote: All-kill style because
1) SC2 is about the superstars. People don't show up to the GOM studio to watch IM or Prime. They show up to watch Nestea, MVP and Marineking. Assuming the teams are taking the tournament seriously (admittedly not a safe assumption given past GSTL's) the all-kill format ensures the best players play at least once and probably more.
2) It's better for hype. Think of all the players who became famous from teamleagues. DRG, MMA, Losira, Sage, Tails, etc. None of this would have been possible without the chance to get multiple kills.
3) Fewer mirrors. In an ideal world all maps would be balanced and this wouldn't be an issue. Too bad it doesn't work like that in reality. The current BW proleague is filled with way too many mirrors because this season's map pool isn't as balanced as it could be. If lineups are preset, teams will send out a player of whichever race is OP on that particular map, creating lots of mirror matchups, and as we all know ZvZ and PvP suck.
4. More strategic. Proleague format is just a matter of picking a player on your team and having him prepare as much as he can for that specific map. All the strategy making happens before the game and behind the scenes. With all-kill format we get to dissect the minds of the coaches as the series unfolds and see just how well they adapt to unpredictable circumstances.
The main argument against all-kill format is that it allows a player to single handedly win everything for their team, thus taking the "team" out of teamleague. I do not feel this is a problem in SC2. Winner's league was disliked in BW because Flash, Bisu and Jaedong were so good there wasn't any point for non-fans of KT, Oz or SKT to watch. Nobody has reached that sort of unstoppable level in SC2, not yet anyways. Sure we still have 5-0 or 5-1 stompings, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that there are teams that just aren't very good like Zenex, TSL and Hoseo. Even with a proleague format they'd still get blown out of the water.
100% agree with what you said about the All-Kill format, though I would like to see Proleague format used as well to add more diversity to team leagues e.g like BW one round Proleague format another round All-Kill format
I am curious what people think of the IPLTAC2 and NASTL so far. Which league has shown better, more exciting series? Could it be because of the format and not only because of the teams involved?
So far the IPLTAC2 has been way more interesting and exciting than the NASTL for me.
I love the suprise aspect of the Gstl format, where you won't know who the new player is going to be. But, i also feel pre set matches can make a more interesting matchup, this also avoids the possibilty of 4 mirror matchups in a row, that is obviously a plus.
I always think that for sc2 to grow we need to focus more in the teams, with all kill forma we don't get that... at least for me.. I'd prefer PL format with ace match ( not pre set) ..
Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill.
Old PL format with the ace match. All-kill format gets really dull after a while. I mean it was great to see Jaedong Oz stomp faces in Winners League but for a regular season I'd rather see a format where the overall best team wins and not the one who just happens to have DRG.
On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill.
I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
Proleague format seems to me as its vastly superior. I will concede that the pokemon/all-kill format is exiting, but frankly it doesn't feel like much of a team format to me. I also dislike that the early matches tend to feel somewhat meaningless since the people that actually decide the matches are the aces. With pro league format, you need more than one good player to win, you get to see more players and the best TEAM wins.
On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill.
I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
No matter the format--teams will field their best players at all times unless it is pool play. In an elimination format you'll never have players take the chance to not field their best guys. In a pool format teams who are "ahead" pulls back and fields their less experienced players to improve the team as a whole. What's great about a proleague is that it allows for a team who is fielding their weaker players to not have them simply all killed by Flash or DRG. And since the success of their team does not rest solely on their shoulders. It gives the less experienced players the breathing room to do well without *having* to do a reverse all-kill.
On February 20 2012 12:56 red4ce wrote: All-kill style because
1) SC2 is about the superstars. People don't show up to the GOM studio to watch IM or Prime. They show up to watch Nestea, MVP and Marineking. Assuming the teams are taking the tournament seriously (admittedly not a safe assumption given past GSTL's) the all-kill format ensures the best players play at least once and probably more.
2) It's better for hype. Think of all the players who became famous from teamleagues. DRG, MMA, Losira, Sage, Tails, etc. None of this would have been possible without the chance to get multiple kills.
3) Fewer mirrors. In an ideal world all maps would be balanced and this wouldn't be an issue. Too bad it doesn't work like that in reality. The current BW proleague is filled with way too many mirrors because this season's map pool isn't as balanced as it could be. If lineups are preset, teams will send out a player of whichever race is OP on that particular map, creating lots of mirror matchups, and as we all know ZvZ and PvP suck.
4. More strategic. Proleague format is just a matter of picking a player on your team and having him prepare as much as he can for that specific map. All the strategy making happens before the game and behind the scenes. With all-kill format we get to dissect the minds of the coaches as the series unfolds and see just how well they adapt to unpredictable circumstances.
The main argument against all-kill format is that it allows a player to single handedly win everything for their team, thus taking the "team" out of teamleague. I do not feel this is a problem in SC2. Winner's league was disliked in BW because Flash, Bisu and Jaedong were so good there wasn't any point for non-fans of KT, Oz or SKT to watch. Nobody has reached that sort of unstoppable level in SC2, not yet anyways. Sure we still have 5-0 or 5-1 stompings, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that there are teams that just aren't very good like Zenex, TSL and Hoseo. Even with a proleague format they'd still get blown out of the water.
I disagree 1. Superstars will still be seeded in Proleague format. Yes the best players will be played at least once. Nestea hardly has to come out cuz mvp has already done the task in WL. But in PL both of them will be played out. If you want to see more of them, ace match can serve it.
2. They can still become famous, as long as they win. I dont think DRG/MMA would have trouble in rising to stardom if it's not for GSTL
3. Kinda agree with this one. Still the current map pool are fairly balance. If maps like, say, Calm are removed. I dont think we may see that many mirrors (and who doesnt like TvT anyway )
4. It's not like all matchups are determined beforehand like NASTL. Players will not acknowledge their opponents until coming to the venue. Beside, mapseeding will add more strategic aspect to teamplay and coaching, rather than adapting. Another obvious thing is that the game will more likely to be good, as the players practice only for some specific maps
Whats more ? we will see a true team competition where DRG cannot multikill his way to the title. We're likely to see a least 5 players in a bo9 instead of one. Weak teams surely have better chance (imagine mvp fielding DRG first every single game in WL) There should be enough reasons for BW teamleague to embrace proleague primarily.
On February 20 2012 16:31 DashedHopes wrote: I love the suprise aspect of the Gstl format, where you won't know who the new player is going to be. But, i also feel pre set matches can make a more interesting matchup, this also avoids the possibilty of 4 mirror matchups in a row, that is obviously a plus.
Proleague format does not necessitate that players and matchups are announced beforehand. Currently in BW, only map order is known before each series. Coaches pick the players they plan on sending during the intermission between games.
all kill provides for a lot more strategy, since maps can't be re-used (or players of course) that's pretty cool
all kills can be exciting, but terribly boring at the same time, when one team runs out of good players... Also seems to favor teams with large rosters, whereas NASTL is more of an equal chance
why not have the best of both worlds ala dream league.
5 games blind entry winner of blind entry games play in winners league format until no players left for each team.
example; eg vs team liquid idra > hero demuslim < ret lzgamer < jinro puma > haypro jyp < tlo (players left are idra, ret, jinro and puma) idra < ret puma > ret puma > jinro puma < tlo
Definitely Proleague format (best with Bo7 like it was a season or so ago) with winners league every now and then as a novelty. It's far more fun to watch a whole team come together instead of just relying on a few players. Of course Proleague Bo7 actually needs at least 6 players to be fielded, but this allows for up and coming players to play and gain competitive experience. It also allows teams with a truly strong lineup to dominate.
On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill.
I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
Actually, I don't understand what you're saying at all. In a proleague format there are fewer matches? How so?
In a Bo5, Winner's League format forces a team to send out 1-3 players. Proleague format forces a team to send out 3-5. In a Bo7, that's 1-4 to 4-7. In a Bo9, it's 1-5 to 5-9.
I don't think I get your angle here.
EDIT:
On February 20 2012 17:41 GTR wrote: why not have the best of both worlds ala dream league.
5 games blind entry winner of blind entry games play in winners league format until no players left for each team.
example; eg vs team liquid idra > hero demuslim < ret lzgamer < jinro puma > haypro jyp < tlo (players left are idra, ret, jinro and puma) idra < ret puma > ret puma > jinro puma < tlo
Never followed Dreamleague but that sounds like an interesting format!
On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill.
I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
No matter the format--teams will field their best players at all times unless it is pool play. In an elimination format you'll never have players take the chance to not field their best guys. In a pool format teams who are "ahead" pulls back and fields their less experienced players to improve the team as a whole. What's great about a proleague is that it allows for a team who is fielding their weaker players to not have them simply all killed by Flash or DRG. And since the success of their team does not rest solely on their shoulders. It gives the less experienced players the breathing room to do well without *having* to do a reverse all-kill.
That would be a great argument if it didn't utterly contradict the facts. But the truth is that we have seen a lot of teams take a chance on less-known players, even during elimination rounds in the GSTL, KSL, IPLTAC, and other all-kill leagues. It's precisely because they know that even if that player loses, they have other players they are confident in being able to get a multi-kill, that allows them the freedom to give players these kinds of chances. In proleague formats, that possibility doesn't exist, and neither, therefore does the opportunity for up and comers. The formulaic--and short--list of players who are fielded in those leagues bear that fact out.
DongRaeGu has the same number of all kills as MaruPrime. MVP has none. NesTea has none. MC has none. MMA has none. The idea that a proleague format helps prevent dominant star players from all-killing hapless up-and-comers is an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Most all kills are not by stars, they are by up and coming players like TaeJa, Sage, Squirtle, BboongBboong, Keen, Life, Seal, and Golden. In a proleague format those players would have won one game, if they were used at all, and most viewers would have shrugged and mostly ignored their contribution. It is only the all kill format that allowed them, and many others who managed less than an all kill, to be the star for a day.
While I do enjoy greatly when I see my favorite players perform an all-kill or reverse all-kill. I realize that, this isn't a true team league in a sense. In the AK format the weight of the team may fall on one or two aces to and the rest of the team may fall in the shadow.
In the same way that up and coming players have gotten exposure and fame for their performances, how many others have been left in the shadow, because they where not given a chance to shine?
I think Proleague format would be way better as long as you required 5 games, not 3 games to win the entire thing. That way the tension and excitement could continue game after game. In a 4-0 situation it would be up to all the following 5 players on the other team to make a comeback, not just 1 ace.
I don't see how 1 ace playing 5 games in a row trying to make a comeback, is more exciting than 5 people each trying to win his game. I'd say seeing 5 people each trying his best for his team would be better, as you don't know exactly how each and every one of them will perform, how they act under such pressure etc. And in such a case, if the team manages to do a reverse and go 5-4 the result would be much more dramatic and the sense of camaraderie and team bonding would be stronger.
So, while I find AK somewhat exciting, I feel that it is flawed for a team league and it encourages teams more and more to try and use their best players, instead of newer players. And while newer players do get sent out, it usually happens in some of the games that have little to no meaning.
I'm quite sure DRG and MMA would have risen to stardom even if they didn't become the aces of their teams in GSTL, because both are such remarkable players with such great potential. So lets leave the team leagues for the teams and the individual leagues to the individuals.
On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player).
On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player).
By your argument, Argentina and Portugal should have won the World Cup because they have Messi and Ronaldo respectively and Cleveland Cavaliers should have won an NBA Championship because they had Lebron. Just having one star player does not mean you should win the whole championship.
Yes star players will help win one or two games, but overall a team league should be won by a team that has consistent players. Look at KT last yr in BW proleague, sure they had Flash but he cant win them the championship himself, it was Stats as well as the KT zerg line that kept them competitive and won them the title.
In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill.
I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
This makes no sense. There are no less games in Proleague format at all - if you decide it's a BO7 for example, the number of games ranges through all BO7 results either way, the format makes no difference at all.
Your evidence is purely anecdotal, based on specific cases you remember. On average there will always be less players showing up in all-kill format because of the potential for double/triple/all-kills. That means LESS PEOPLE get to play on average. That isn't good for less-known upcoming players, it's bad.
Bottom line is, in PL format (BO7) you absolutely must send out A MINIMUM of 4 different players every time, and as many as 6 if you don't win 4-0. In all-kill format, you might only need one or two (and this is the case quite often in fact).
On February 20 2012 20:16 Aunvilgod wrote: GSTL all the way. Preset matches seem just plain stupid to me.
provide a proper argument against it,also you don't know the PL format, NASTL and PL format are not exactly the same, please do not confuse the two.
actually there seems to be a few misconceptions about the PL format in general.
firstly, unlike the NASTL the lineups are not announced until right before each set, this practice was started after the matchfixing scandal to prevent matchfixing.
also all the games are Bo1s, while some people might find this cringe worthy because of cheese or undeserving players winning, its better this way you are going to have that player practice that map at a level where he can hold of cheese and show that he can blow your mind with his play.
The number of matches are not somehow less as an above poster has stated, it is exactly the same as you would expect from an all-kill format.
Also, this format actually allows for more new team members to play, hell even win and not just be scapegoats to the superstars.
On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player).
you are guaranteed to be up 1-0 against your opponent with your star player having 99% chance of winning. Is that not enough of an advantage ? And if ace match is applied, you would probably never lose if it comes down to this (hi KT)
On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL.
Examples? I cant recall any snipers off the top of my head =S
Part of the reason for the NASTL format is that it makes it much easier to schedule, being that it's online and not in person. I prefer the GSTL format for all the reasons ppl have stated already, reminds me of crew battles from smash and other games.
Both work really well and I enjoy both. But in terms of a teamleague where the emphasis is on "team", I prefer the NASTL format (though as a Bo7, not a Bo5). The ACE-match at a tied score is much better than the current SPL format, without that it feels a little boring. If it goes to the last game, I want to see the best players battle it out.
I'd rather have the unique format that is used by dream league That is 4 separate 1v1s and the winners fight again in winners league style It makes for an epic epic reverse all-kill :D
I chose 'Other'. The old SPL format with ace matches would be my choice. I get the feeling that people who only ever watched GSTL voted about it, which is horrible. I think the proleague format allows showcasing more players and has more of a team effort associated with it. Winnersleague (GSTL) is fun but can be less exciting in my opinion.
I like all formats. Personally I really like teamleagues a bit more because some clanwars are so tense until the end and it gives the teams actually a reason to call themselves "teams" . If a team does not participate in a team league it is only existing for the players to have practice partners and someone who pays the travel expenses to tournaments. So I personally like those teamleagues they give SC2 a bit of the warcraft 3 and broodwar flair where team leagues were really popular.
On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL.
Examples? I cant recall any snipers off the top of my head =S
Ryung was probably the most famous GSTL example. He used to be a sick Terran sniper.
There are others, too. LOTS of strategy when deciding which player to send.
I much prefer the IPL/GSL King of the Hill format, because it allows for more strategy on the part of the TEAM, choosing which player to send out against a set opponent. Harkens back to the days of BW where you would have a "Sniper" player dedicated to specifically taking out someone based on race/player/strat/map/etc. Just lost against a player showing of his known strong lategame TvP? Send out a Zerg player and choose a map with a large difficult to defend ramp and use a baneling bust to "Snipe" the player out. That is the kind of strategy that a team format is supposed to provide, the ability to manage your team against the opponent's team strategically in order to win. (Prime is using MKP. TLO, I choose you! It's Super Effective!)
With the NASTL format, your team can't specifically match one player to another, and their format is just a bunch of regular matches, it's not really a team style as you can't employ the mentality of team strategy to it.
On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL.
Examples? I cant recall any snipers off the top of my head =S
Ryung was probably the most famous GSTL example. He used to be a sick Terran sniper.
There are others, too. LOTS of strategy when deciding which player to send.
Arguably Ryung wasn't so much as a sniper but one of the better Slayers Terran, if i recall he was still sent out fairly often and he should be Code S level. He got a bad draw in Code A last time having to face Brown and his Up and Down group was quite horrible.
I accept theres tons of strategy in GSTL and such, but its just more developed in BW and i feel that the all-kill format isn't the sort of format GOM should be aiming at as a major league competition. Just feels gimmicky compared to proleague
I like the PL formate more. GSTL/IPL one doesn't tell me anything about the strenght of the team, other than DRG and MMA is pretty good at team leagues.
On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL.
Examples? I cant recall any snipers off the top of my head =S
For map-sniper: SlayerS vs MvP in GSTL Feb(?) Finals - Frozen vs Keen on Tal'Darim Altar.
I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Yeah, I really dislike that about NASTL. Furthermore they go ahead and show the matchups, which takes away all the possible excitement even if they are predetermined. It is weird how SC2 leagues have been using weird formats, way too many maps or strange rules. SPL for team leagues and TSL2's rules and 5 map pool should have been the first place organizers look to.
All-kills can be fun, but the set system from Brood War will always be my favourite. It's not as if racial match-ups you are less interested in will happen to show up more from teams choosing who to send out anyway, so it's good to see a variety of players and is more likely to get a wider range of player match-ups.
On February 20 2012 23:37 Talic_Zealot wrote: Yeah, I really dislike that about NASTL. Furthermore they go ahead and show the matchups, which takes away all the possible excitement even if they are predetermined. It is weird how SC2 leagues have been using weird formats, way too many maps or strange rules. SPL for team leagues and TSL2's rules and 5 map pool should have been the first place organizers look to.
I agree with your point that NASTL showing the matchups is actually a bad idea. I am sure they chose to show them for the hype they can generate for any specific matchup, but if they were to not show them (even if all the matchups were predetermined) that would always increase the mystery of could X play Y which means the only way to find out is if people tune in.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
I like the GSTL format because it adds to the suspense who the team will send out to snipe players of the opposing team. The added plus here over IPL TAC is that all the players are there in the studio and the camera will show their reactions, which is fun.
On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years.
I strongly disagree with that statement. I don't know about the baseball example as I don't follow that, but Messi and CR does not carry their team. Their teams are filled with top class players, thats why they are performing. If you take Cristiano Ronaldo for example, he was supposed to be an integral part of ManUtd and when they sold him, they were gonna perform worse. Well, that's not how it worked out at all. I've heard the saying "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link", I've not heard something like "A teams' skill is defined by it's best player".
I can see how what you're saying is true in sports where certain roles have a much more significant influence on the result, like a quarter-back in American Football, but in SC2 this isn't the case.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match.
Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Edit: I could expand on this if you'd like, but i'd like to know if you watched SKT vs KT which was played yesterday because I am going to take that match as an example if we are going to continue this.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match.
Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers)
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match.
Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers)
it did come close a couple of times but I need to dig through all the games of last season.I'm pretty sure it happened too.
and reread my post I said the Ace of the team that is down 0-3 not the opposing team.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match.
Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers)
it did come close a couple of times but I need to dig through all the games of last season.I'm pretty sure it happened too.
and reread my post I said the Ace of the team that is down 0-3 not the opposing team.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match.
Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers)
it did come close a couple of times but I need to dig through all the games of last season.I'm pretty sure it happened too.
and reread my post I said the Ace of the team that is down 0-3 not the opposing team.
GSTL by far for me, when you have to choose the player based on maps you tend to get tons of mirror matches, at least when I play in ESL, havn't watched many pro team leagues which play that format though to be honest.
On February 20 2012 19:59 -Archangel- wrote: I prefer GSTL format.
And I don't agree with this statement from OP:
On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player).
By your argument, Argentina and Portugal should have won the World Cup because they have Messi and Ronaldo respectively and Cleveland Cavaliers should have won an NBA Championship because they had Lebron. Just having one star player does not mean you should win the whole championship.
Yes star players will help win one or two games, but overall a team league should be won by a team that has consistent players. Look at KT last yr in BW proleague, sure they had Flash but he cant win them the championship himself, it was Stats as well as the KT zerg line that kept them competitive and won them the title.
There is a big difference between country and team. Many players don't play as well for their country. Also factors like fatigue come into play a lot during EC and World Championships in football. But many clubs would not be where they are without their star players.
As far as basketball, of course star players don't bring in 100% wins and your ONE example means nothing. I can easily counter that with 6 Bulls titles won by Michael Jordan. And how many titles did other Star players through NBA history bring. I am not even going to start counting how many individual games did those players basically win by themselves.
ive always preffered the NASL style format becuase it shows who has the better team not who has one or two amazing players that can take out 2-3 guys on there own
Star leagues are there to focus on the individual players, why should team leagues be focused on a single player carrying the team. In winner's format we would see 2 things: star players like Flash (13-0 this SLP season for now) plow through opponents until such a player from another team comes, or the team prepares a specific riskplay to snipe him. Now while I love such matches, I don't like it to be the main focus , SL finals are for that. An SPL format allows for another type of player pick where the coach tries to guess who will be the other team's pick, that seems more exciting to me than direct 'hard' snipes one after the other. It is also a staging area for all players from the team to be showcased, which is good from the team's perspective of showing solidity to sponsors. At this point I am doubting the validity of the poll. Allot of people have not experienced the different types of formats equally and just rush a vote.
What I would like quite a lot tho... is kind of a mix of the two. No players is allowed to play twice in a match and the team that won the last game pick their next players first, so the losing team can actually try to conter the next pick.
Ex :
TL vs EG, Bo3:
Round 1, InControL vs Haypro, Predetermined.
InControL beat Haypro
Round 2, EG Pick first since they won the last round. They pick HuK, therefore TL pick Zenio to conter him.
Zenio won.
Round 3, TL Pick first since they won the last round. They pick Hero, therefore EG pick Puma.
On February 21 2012 04:00 insanet wrote: the results of the poll are very clear. it shows most people only cheer for their favorite players not for their favorite team.
No... It only shows that people never watched a good team league, that's it. The only one that have a decent production value is GSTL.
And this poll should have included the Proleague format.
On February 21 2012 04:00 insanet wrote: the results of the poll are very clear. it shows most people only cheer for their favorite players not for their favorite team.
That's a bit of a wild conclusion, it may just be that people enjoy the possibility of a single player (but not any particular player) coming back and single-handedly winning the match. I know that I pretty much don't actually care who wins when I watch team leagues, regarding either teams or players.
On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least.
Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined?
proleague matches are not predetermined.
NASTL =/= Proleague
proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal.
Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games?
It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out.
a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match.
Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Edit: I could expand on this if you'd like, but i'd like to know if you watched SKT vs KT which was played yesterday because I am going to take that match as an example if we are going to continue this.
That's ok, I get your point. Obviously not having the obligation to release full lineup ahead of time gives teams some space to make last minute calls.
I just thought it was still kinda common practice to decide which players play where ahead of time based on some of the matches earlier this season (such as KT losing without playing Flash or T1 without Fanta), and fbh's interview about ACE players just picking a map they like etc. And Khan's antics obviously.
I feel like GSTL format is better for the fans (we get to see epic AK's and our favorite players playing) but worse for the teams, where not everyone might get the chance to play.
Personally I prefer the Proleague format - mainly because I think ace matches are cool. Plus, there's more opportunity to see specific strategies tailored to a player, which I always really like watching.
Plus, it allows for less opportunity for one person to carry a team on their shoulders.
On February 21 2012 06:20 Forikorder wrote: what exactly is teh pro-league format? ive never watched one before
In essence...
It is a set of of maps that are already predetermined. The coach picks one player to play on each map. The team who wins the most maps wins the match. Normally it is done with an even number of maps--so that in a tie an Ace match is played where any player is allowed to play (allowing top players to play twice instead of once).
On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL.
Examples? I cant recall any snipers off the top of my head =S
For map-sniper: SlayerS vs MvP in GSTL Feb(?) Finals - Frozen vs Keen on Tal'Darim Altar.
One match doesnt constitute a map sniper.....
For current SPL, look at brave from KHAN going 6-0 on Chain Reaction
Those aren't map snipers, they're just specialized players that only play on maps that are race favoured. Like above, Chain Reaction/Neo Chain Reaction is a heavily favoured protoss map, so it makes sense to have one or two people on your team only play that map against Protoss/Zerg (since it's a very bad T map).
But since January is a bit of a troll she does the opposite most of the time xd
I'm the retard that basically made the same thread as this one, but anyways, as my contribution, I figured I'd just post what I said in that one... Also I'm curious about people's view on like season's and the greater tournament format, i.e. round robin v. brackets. And with that the number of participants, and on a lesser note, 2v2s :D anyways
I have been following all of the team leagues recently, (and there have been a lot ^_^) but I was wondering what everyone thought the merits of each format. I mean this in a variety of ways, which I will explain.
There is first off the Global Starcraft II Team League (GSTL), which if I understand correctly simply chooses teams, which then compete in the season. There are a total of 10 teams that have or are participating in this season. Their tournament format, this season, is sort of a double elimination bracket with the top two seeds getting 'byes.' In each individual match, they use a Bo9 all-kill format. By all-kill format I mean that all-kills are possible, or that essentially it is a KOTH type deal.
Next there is IGN ProLeague Team Arena Challenge (IPL TAC). They invited 12 teams, and then held 2 qualifiers in which another 4 teams qualified for competition, for a total of 16 participants. Their tournament format is a straight up double elimination bracket, and their individual matches are the same as the GSTL's (Bo9 all-kill, loser picks map.)
Then there is the new North American Starcraft II Team League (NASTL). NASTL used the top 4 placing teams from the GosuCoaching Premiere League Season 2, and then also, like IPL TAC, held two qualifier tournaments in which the top two teams advanced to the rest of the tourney. This gives NASTL a total of 8 teams in their regular tournament. They have decided to have a round robin tournament, after which the top 4 teams will be placed in to a playoff bracket. Their individual match set up is a little different as well, having both teams blindly choose their first 4 players based on maps, and then it ends up being a Bo5, with each set between players being a Bo1. If the score ends up tied at 2-2 after the first 4 maps, the teams then each have 1 player they get to choose for an Ace Match. This set is a Bo3 to determine who takes the match point (the 5th game).
There have also been other team leagues, like the GosuCoaching one mentioned above, and EG's team league. EG's team league had a similar match format to that of NASTL's but also included 2v2 teams for one of the sets. This is the format the HSL and CSL follow as well. The original IPL Team Arena used a format similar to what IPL Fight Club is now, however was presented as less of a tournament, as it was a KOTH showmatch. Also to note I am simply talking about the most recent seasons, because I know the GSTL has also utilized the round robin format.
What do you guys think is the best, what is your favorite format?
Personally, I think that they all have their own flavor, and love having all of them, to provide a variety of events to watch. I like watching the all-kill format, because, well there's always the possibility of an all-kill! But I like watching the preset matches, because you generally get to see more players and it usually means that the team needs to have more all around talent, rather than one or two aces who can just sweep. The Bo1s mean that there is also a greater chance of upsets, which I find enjoyable and exciting. The inclusion of ace matches sort of prevents too many upsets though... I would like to see more 2v2s, but feel that it needs to develop more first. I also like the round robin tournaments, simply because you get to see all the teams play each other, and with the brackets I think it is easy to feel slighted when one gets matched up right away against someone who would be considered a heavy favorite, essentially the same as any other tournament. The biggest issue in having lots of groups and round robin set ups is time and the tournaments taking too long, so all in all it's an understandable compromise. I think this leads into more frequently occurring seasons, which if the tournaments employ more qualifiers to rotate out the other performers, allowing us to see more up and coming teams, and as a result of that more up and coming players!
I'd love to here what your optimized league would be, what you think is reasonable, and what you are looking forward to in the future!
No matter what, we should all enjoy this recent influx of team leagues, and all of their various formats, even if sub-optimal, as they all have their own different values, and their variety is a value in and of itself. :D
Someone's probably already said this, but I prefer unannounced lineups Proleague style (I ended up voting for second option). Creates more drama and last-minute lineup changes can and will be made.Also, it feels more like a team league. That said, even preannounced games are better than all-kill (which, in turn, I favor over the mindlessly long individual leagues).
Although GSTL styled team leagues will always be more fun and dynamic for spectators to watch and commentators to commentate, it's not really ideal to play with as a player because its only a BO1.
On February 21 2012 15:19 birdkicker wrote: Although GSTL styled team leagues will always be more fun and dynamic for spectators to watch and commentators to commentate, it's not really ideal to play with as a player because its only a BO1.
That's just it.. It is for teams not players., so it is actually a best of 5. It seems people are not team fans yet at all. So maybe I should change my answer. Winnersleague allows the fans to cheer for their favourite players in the beginning and experience some of the atmosphere, other formats should be slowly introduced through time. Unfortunately we don't have PL's season system where they have the wiggle room of introducing another format for a whole round:until this year they played Winnersleague(gstl style) in one of the 5 rounds before the play-offs. An inverted version of this would be a good way to introduce people, but we don't have that kind of stretched time frame for starleagues nor teamleagues.
Minor (not proleague-level) team tournaments should really be winner's format. The depth of standard proleague format only shows when it's the #1 focus/priority for teams ie. they spend a lot of time preparing and calculating their player picks.
Winner's format let's cool shit happen without as much preparation as sniping just involves a player picking 1-2 maps and playing on them a ton while preparing for one opponent.
Yes, but there really is no league in SC2 on the scale of PL/OSL. There is ones with higher production values though, maybe you could say that NASL tries to keep it down and stretch out, but there seems to be something missing to make it complete.
Since so many people are not familiar with PL and it's format, I don't think jsut explaining it on paper does it justice. Tune in to one of sayle's english PL casts English Proleague Commentary so you can feel the atmosphere.