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On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
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On March 12 2012 03:26 xlava wrote: I don't understand what this means, how can there be a hardcore bronze player?
I'm high masters, and I demolish any diamond and even some low masters players that I play in customs (friends, for example). Its not even remotely close, I simply outplay them. If there's such a huge skill difference between masters and diamond alone, bronze must be unfathomably bad.
Sorry but I can't say I agree with the purported theory that bronze players aren't as bad as they used to be. There was a blog written by Gheed I think, which basically showed how he has a 50% win rate with worker rushing in bronze... I mean common...
Also read the above post for basically all my points about bronze league.
Edit: I can agree, however, that the overall skill of all the leagues has risen since a while back when the game started. However, the skill of masters and gm has risen faster than the other leagues in my opinion.
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
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I don't care how untalented or stupid you are, if you remotely put any effort into learning and practicing the game you should be out of bronze. (unless actually mentally or physically challenged). If you are actually just trolling in games and your objective is not to win but just have fun then thats fine.
However if you consider yourself "hardcore" and still in bronze and even silver/gold/plat then that just means 2 things : highly delusional ( no effort or practice but still expect to be "above average") or just mentally incapable
not trying to be offensive, but just trying to say it how it is
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On March 12 2012 07:32 biology]major wrote: I don't care how untalented or stupid you are, if you remotely put any effort into learning and practicing the game you should be out of bronze. (unless actually mentally or physically challenged). If you are actually just trolling in games and your objective is not to win but just have fun then thats fine.
However if you consider yourself "hardcore" and still in bronze and even silver/gold/plat then that just means 2 things : highly delusional ( no effort or practice but still expect to be "above average") or just mentally incapable
not trying to be offensive, but just trying to say it how it is
You are certainly welcome to that opinion.
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On March 12 2012 07:27 Adamgm wrote:
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Please. Post. Some. Replays. Use http://drop.sc/ You don't even have to register. Otherwise this discussion is going nowhere fast. I can't help because to be quite honest, I've only ever played half a dozen games against a bronze, and they've never been macro games.
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On March 12 2012 07:29 Adamgm wrote:
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
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On March 12 2012 07:27 Adamgm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what? I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
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On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: The secondary for writing this is that I spent a long time rather frustrated that I was still in bronze, and I wasn't enjoying myself. Perhaps someone else is in this situation... a switch to being OK with your level of play might do what it did for me, and bring more enjoyment to your play time!
At least for me, starcraft is all about improving. If you've convinced yourself it's not possible for you to improve any further then your play will stagnate. That could be said for all skill levels. If you don't have a goal to move out of bronze then any advice I say isn't necessary anyway. But if you are, I would simply concentrate at looking at what caused each loss and making little adjustments towards making sure you'll be in good shape next time it happens. Especially at bronze I wouldn't spend much time overanalyzing replays or other such things, just work from experience and have an attitude that you can/will improve over time.
EDIT: I also feel that an undertone of this thread is to say that bronze league actually has great players in it or to say to yourself that you are a great player while in bronze. Just keep in mind, some of the best players in the world wouldn't even say that they're good players. Again, it's all about improving. And of course, if it's not about improving for you, then you pretty much have to accept your current league standing because how else can it change.
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People seem to forget, in order for their to be someone at the top, someone has to be at the bottom. The leagues silver - Diamond will vary in skill. Bronze will always contain the very worst players at the bottom of it. Masters (grandmasters..depending on how screwed up the season is) will always contain the very best.
The fact that so many people have left, and people are improving means the league standard will change all the time. Your league is not a bench-marker of skill.. the boundaries are forever shifting and your compared to the players around you.. not the league itself. What I mean to say... you could be in the top 50% of players.. but if all of the player base below you leave.. guess what... now your in the bottom percentile.
I'm a Gold Zerg.. who after 2-3 seasons with no games (broke pc) is back and I've lost every 1v1 so far... no doubts I'll be silver soon enough. What was working a couple seasons ago for me, is not now.. Metagame shift and a quality increase. Back to the drawing board. I'll jsut keep playing and improving.. aim for plat/dia for HOTS when it all resets anyway.
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I tell u this Adamg. There is another problem people don’t think about when they are in the lower leagues. That is to accept their limitations. Being bronze means u don’t have the required multitasking to do everything. Meaning u can’t Do great macro, micro and good decision making at the same time. If u only focus on building probes without queeing them will suffer in other parts. If u try to have good units management u will suffer in the macro department. If u try to do everything while not having the ability to do it u will just end up with not being able to do any of them. So my point is that u might be trying too hard to be good. Instead choose one thing and focus on that and don’t overdo it .
For instance I decided to focus on macro only when I was in bronze. I used to just a-move my army and go back to base and macroing. Even if my opponent crushed my army I would still win because my macro would allow me to throw way new army over and over again since my opponent focused on unit management and chose not to macro. I also lost allot of matches even when I had 10 times better economy because of not having enough units or throwing them away to much. I focused too much on making workers and expanding that i keept losing more games then i won. So my advice is this than. Focus on your macro in the beginning of the game only. And after u expanded switch your focus to unit management and let your macro slip. This means no fancy presure builders,bunker rushes or stuff like that at the begining of the game. After your ecnomy is sett u should not worry about building workers or if your mony floats. Just try to controll your untis and get good engagments.
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On March 12 2012 07:52 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 07:27 Adamgm wrote:On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what? I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both. Either: 1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread. or 2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
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On March 12 2012 08:29 Anomi wrote: I tell u this Adamg. There is another problem people don’t think about when they are in the lower leagues. That is to accept their limitations. Being bronze means u don’t have the required multitasking to do everything. Meaning u can’t Do great macro, micro and good decision making at the same time. If u only focus on building probes without queeing them will suffer in other parts. If u try to have good units management u will suffer in the macro department. If u try to do everything while not having the ability to do it u will just end up with not being able to do any of them. So my point is that u might be trying too hard to be good. Instead choose one thing and focus on that and don’t overdo it .
For instance I decided to focus on macro only when I was in bronze. I used to just a-move my army and go back to base and macroing. Even if my opponent crushed my army I would still win because my macro would allow me to throw way new army over and over again since my opponent focused on unit management and chose not to macro. I also lost allot of matches even when I had 10 times better economy because of not having enough units or throwing them away to much. I focused too much on making workers and expanding that i keept losing more games then i won. So my advice is this than. Focus on your macro in the beginning of the game only. And after u expanded switch your focus to unit management and let your macro slip. This means no fancy presure builders,bunker rushes or stuff like that at the begining of the game. After your ecnomy is sett u should not worry about building workers or if your mony floats. Just try to controll your untis and get good engagments.
Totally agree I still practice and try to improve - I don't mean to say that accepting my league means I don't care anymore. I still love this game a great deal.
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On March 12 2012 07:46 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 07:29 Adamgm wrote:
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move. The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
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Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
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On March 08 2012 19:21 NoctemSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'. While true that Golds are getting better that means that Diamond are getting better as well. Essentially if everyone improves, the skill difference between a Diamond and a Gold is still huge. I've done some practice matches vs a few of my teams lowest members (Gold community members) because they insist to play someone higher to improve. Every game has been a landslide win. Gold players still have the same problems they had a year, their macro still needs a lot of work and unit comp is still God awful.
I would agree with this. But, if you took a gold player today, they would have been at least Diamond a year ago.
But that's not saying a lot. You could take a Master's player today and they'd be a pro.
But it's interesting, playing silver/gold level players and seeing shockingly good micro. Decent marine splits, good blinks, excellent kiting.
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On March 12 2012 08:53 Micket wrote: Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
You haven't read a single other post have you?
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On March 12 2012 08:53 Micket wrote: Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
i can easily do your little macro challenge. last match as zerg i remember i ended up 80 drone on 4 bases with low banking and decent creep spread. i have around 100 apm. i am silver.
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On March 11 2012 15:00 Adamgm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:51 CursedFeanor wrote: The same way you wouldn't ask someone with a 80 IQ to get a Ph.D., it's entirely possible for some people to simply not have the mental (or possibly physical) capacities to reach beyond a certain league. If it's your case, then it's certainly better to just be content about your position and enjoy playing at this level. There are always "below average" players, otherwise there wouldn't be "above average" players. The problem is more often than not that some people fail to realize they're part of the former. I don't think its an intelligence capacity. I'm a Physics major and work for the aerospace/defense industry.
I don't think that either, I have a friend in bronze who has a masters degree in programming, his problem is definitely not intelligence. He also has good macro. Micro, not so much.
His biggest problem is that he basically dies to any kind of mineral line harassment, because he doesn't manage to save his workers. He reacts poorly and just crumbles.
If there was no mineral line harassment or multipronged attacks he would be out of bronze in no time. But luckily there is.
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On March 12 2012 09:22 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 15:00 Adamgm wrote:On March 09 2012 09:51 CursedFeanor wrote: The same way you wouldn't ask someone with a 80 IQ to get a Ph.D., it's entirely possible for some people to simply not have the mental (or possibly physical) capacities to reach beyond a certain league. If it's your case, then it's certainly better to just be content about your position and enjoy playing at this level. There are always "below average" players, otherwise there wouldn't be "above average" players. The problem is more often than not that some people fail to realize they're part of the former. I don't think its an intelligence capacity. I'm a Physics major and work for the aerospace/defense industry. I don't think that either, I have a friend in bronze who has a masters degree in programming, his problem is definitely not intelligence. He also has good macro. Micro, not so much. His biggest problem is that he basically dies to any kind of mineral line harassment, because he doesn't manage to save his workers. He reacts poorly and just crumbles. If there was no mineral line harassment or multipronged attacks he would be out of bronze in no time. But luckily there is.
Does harassment (beyond just attacking with a single worker) even exist in bronze? I don't think it does really.
What I'm seeing a bit of in this thread is what Gheed realized in his last blog: Bronze players don't understand how completely terrible they are. He goes over several reasons for this (some might not know its the bottom league, some don't care about the larger community, etc.) but his game with his bronze league friend basically sums it up. They don't fully grasp how absolutely god-fucking awful they are at every single last aspect of the game. It isn't that your "macro is ok, you just need to X." NO. This is the problem. You can't really improve in what you need to (EVERYTHING) if you think anything you do is ok. I'm a master league player and I still think most of my mechanics are dogshit (they are decent in my best games). If this is the case for me, you have to realize how completely terrible you are at EVERYTHING before you can begin to improve.
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On March 12 2012 09:13 Adamgm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 08:53 Micket wrote: Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers. You haven't read a single other post have you? Yes, I have. Most of them are you saying you macro fine and are decent but bronze players are actually good enough to beat that. Mate, you need to work on your macro, its not good enough. Try making stalker colossus off 2 base (1 robo), until 140 supply and a move across the map. Should be very easy win. Also, 50 probes by 14 minutes is Awful. The fact you thought that was somewhat ok is pretty telling in it's own right. A Protoss warp gate timing, usually runs off full 2 base saturation which is around 46 probes and those arrive at around 9:30. That's with cut probes btw. Work on your macro and you will leave bronze league. Stop telling yourself otherwise.
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