I recently wrote a thread on reddit looking for fellow bronze level players who have come to accept just that - that they are bronze level players.
I got slammed pretty hard by almost everyone, except for a few who seemed glad I was having more fun enjoying my league instead of getting angry about not progressing.
Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
The secondary for writing this is that I spent a long time rather frustrated that I was still in bronze, and I wasn't enjoying myself. Perhaps someone else is in this situation... a switch to being OK with your level of play might do what it did for me, and bring more enjoyment to your play time!
I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
Thats true, the standard in bronze silver gold is different from what it was months/a year ago... Also day9 always says ladder rank is a measure of progress not a measure of skill and thats true...if u are using ladder to actually improve your play then you will lose lots of games as u try out new ideas and refine your play and evolve what u r doing....playing this way from the very start is easy to start and stay in bronze a long time and still have good game knowledge etc etc
its not new but its true i think u should ignore your league really and just play to improve and u will find that u get promotion anyway at a what seems random moment and then u really do realise it doesn't tell u how much your game has improved only u know that
I might not be happy about it but I'm upper silver (which is top 8 bronze) and that's where I'm staying.
2000+ games, GSL Sub, watch D9D/Artosis/SOTG etc etc. I'm just too slow, too shit. I don't think I will ever be 'happy' about this as I know in absolute terms I'm god awful (Every game won - they suck, how can it possibly be hard to beat someone that bad. Every game lost, desk punch, raaage.)
I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
It's completely dependent on what your goal is. If your goal really is to improve there is no reason to stay in bronze for a very long time, as if you're doing it correctly you will advance quite quickly through the lower leagues. If your goal is just to have fun, then by all means be glad you're in that league.
I kinda get the situation. When I played very actively in stints, I played top diamond or low/mid masters league, but I really don't have the time to commit to the game long-term playing those 2h a day required to maintain that skill level, so I basically tanked my rank down to platinum (by playing random ♥ :D) and now I'm sitting very happy in the platinum league, Ultralisk rushing in every ZvZ and doing other weird, but fun, strategies in the other matchups.
So yeah, should I be frustrated I'm in platinum when I've already proved to myself that my skill level is quite a bit beyond that? Of course not, I choose this to enjoy the fun games I want to enjoy. I like randomly trying out to just overwhelm people with lingspam, I love going 4 hatches before pool in zvp praying they don't attack. Ultralisks are complete baller units, and dropping a terran mineral line with one as fast as possible is hilarious. I'm not trying to improve, I'm trying to have fun. I'm 27 years old in a 9-5 job with a family to run, I will never be a pro-gamer because that would mean sacrificing all the things I love in life. I am happy with that. You can't have it all.
I'm not sure if I answered your question thoroughly though, because by your schedule you seem to be implying that you want to improve (you review your games), but by your attitude you seem to want to just have some good games.
Which is it? If you're looking to improve, you need to set yourself clear goals and work towards them, and one of those goals should be hitting a certain league. Another one can be to learn to execute to perfection one build order for each matchup. If you're just looking to have fun, truck on!
You cannot improve if you choose to settle, so no, it's not fine to accept that you're just a bronze level player if your goal is to improve.
But you also cannot improve unless you really want to, if you're too busy doing cool stuff and trying to be cute, like I am, you will not improve because you're not putting the effort in.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
That will get you out of bronze and probably out of silver if nothing else does. It worked for me and I don't watch day9 or review replays. Although I do follow GSL and keep up to date on high level strategy.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
Hmm i am not so sure about that.. i have a friend that is platinum in 1v1 i played him with a 90 % handicap won easy then a 80% handicap. still won easy then with a 70% handicap still won realitvely easy. at the final game i went down to 60% and it was a really really close game with me off racing as zerg he barely won cause i did a huge mistake ( main is terran ) i am mid-highmaster
For me it seems like most people in bronze-platinum just dont have the concentration or the speed to become good. i dont think its the game knowledge or that they arent smart enough to become good. everyone can get good game knowledge and decent decision making. not everybody can stay really concentrated for a long time and play really fast for a long time... its also alot of people who dont want to improve
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
You didn't understand what he wrote. He wrote that current active bronze are a lot stronger than active bronze in the past, and it is very probably true. (At least I know it to be true for silver and gold level). He never said than Bronze players could consistently beat silver/gold/... players, or ever beat a diamond+ player.
Step 1 : Find a tactic to carry yourself out of bronze. Preferably some tactic that requires good timing because timing always helps! Step 2 : Reach gold / platinum level Step 3 : Now you have realised it doesn't work 80% time anymore, start to learn play properly. Step 4 : ??????????? Step 5 : Profit
That's basically how I reached Masters from Bronze :D
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
You didn't understand what he wrote. He wrote that current active bronze are a lot stronger than active bronze in the past, and it is very probably true. (At least I know it to be true for silver and gold level). He never said than Bronze players could consistently beat silver/gold/... players, or ever beat a diamond+ player.
Thank you. I'd be the first to admit I still stink, and that gold players have a lot to improve. My ZvZ sucks.
I'm just saying that the skill gap between silver to platinum probably isn't as big as it used to be.
I'm a (very) low masters zerg, and I can say with confidence (I know what it takes to get out of bronze, and I knew what it took when the game came out, too) that getting out of bronze requires the same things it ever has:
Decent macro. Basic micro. A build.
This can get you to at least platinum, and done (very) well can get you to masters (but that's not really relevant here)
Do them, you get out of bronze. If you think you're doing them and you're not out of bronze yet, you're either:
1) Not doing them when you think you are 2) Struggling with a major misconception about how to play the game, and you should probably post a rep or something so people can enlighten you.
If you're playing "hardcore"ish, 2 hrs a day, you most certainly should be flying out of bronze. Sounds a lot like you're no. 2 on the above list, and you might want to consider asking for help so you can refocus and improve.
This is all assuming you want to improve, ofc. If you're happy in Bronze, more power to you :D
If you want a bit of coaching (i'm high dia as random, so I'm competent with basic stuff of terran and toss) feel free to hit me up with a PM and I'll do my best to help you out with little things/a few practice games :D
glhf :D
EDIT: And yes, bronze is better now than it was before (naturally, since weaker players have stopped playing on the whole), but my point still stands about what's needed to get out of it. I've seen a friend go from bronze to plat very recently, just by doing the things I mentioned above. No insult to him (he knows it too) but he can't micro for shit, but his macro is solid and he has a basic build for each matchup, and that got him to plat ez.
ya...pro players dont realize that they have a gift, it's not just practice all day derp derp. lots of people that are really smart and cant break out of 'x' league. it's all about your current mental state irl, and you evaluate what ur doing in real time in game using that mental state. i myself think that many factors irl hold me back at least 1 or 2 leagues, as i alrerady have all the knowledge and coordination required, i basically just freak out in game, and if u dont think u are, well u probably are anyway, cuz its built into ur scrubness. oh, and pro players have mastered clicking buttons in the proper order, and that shit is just dumb nerd shit u need to practice....has nothing to do with any "real" skill...
I've played Call of Duty at a fairly high level, didn't do bad in arena on WoW either. SC2 was my first RTS. It took me quite some reading and watching to understand how the game worked, but nonetheless I slowly advanced from bottom bronze to upper bronze and after a month or so I got to silver, next season I got to gold where I am now. I don't play a lot but I think a good mentality is the most important thing while laddering. Also TRY to be fast, TRY to use ur keybinds like a crazy nestea mofo, TRY to scout and react. If u have been playing for that long u must know a lot of tactics, and u must know how to react to it. U can get to platinum by 6pooling with shit micro but that's not starcraft is it? Play like u should, improve like u should, and TRY!
On March 08 2012 18:51 ScienceNotBusiness wrote: oh, and pro players have mastered clicking buttons in the proper order, and that shit is just dumb nerd shit u need to practice....has nothing to do with any "real" skill...
This is actually real skill. Starcraft is for a GIGANTIC part a game of execution.
As a terran I really disagree with going full on macro. Honestly, terran in lower league suffers because we all know that terran needs more unit controls because they are alot more fragile. I think Terrans that are trying to get up should try to balance those 2 factors macro and micro to a good stable level. Although macro should always have an edge over micro.
with solely looking at your micro¯o that people suggest all the goddamn time, don't forget that your thought process and knowing what counters what(i don't mean unit counters or anything, but deep strategical decisions) or just having general knowledge of what your opponent is capable of/will the way you approached the game work out etc. is one of the most important factors. if you solely concentrate on this stupid "1 build/improve micro¯o only" then no wonder you will stay where you are for a long time. that game knowledge also helps against itming pushes and it helps you if you wanna execute them.hell it helps you throughout the game
It's good to finally accept your place in the pecking order. I'm coming to realize that I will probably not move past Plat on my main account for at least a few months and that's OK.
However, when I'm offracing on NA (my account is low silver). I can feel when I'm playing a bronze player, everything is so slow and clumsy and their decisions often make no sense. Just do whatever you were going to do a minute faster (like expanding) and you'll do much better
however i want to know, if you have that many games under your belt, you shouldn't really be in bronze league. just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout.
"just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout. " This is hard for many people. And it is unfunny to spam the same build for many others.
Ok so am i the only one that thinks the leagues are easier by far? i leveld a troll from bronze to diamond last month since i have time to sc2 it up again. And i can swear it felt easier than it did in say 2010. Which seems to contradict everyone who thinks bronze silver gold are now harder because numerous people left.
i really dont think you can screw it up if you just copy a build order and just practice it. your macro will improve by leaps and bounds. better yet, watch a pro stream. i can follow what stephano and all of them are doing, but obviously my hands cant emulate what they do in the mid-late stages of the game, but early game is very possible
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
While true that Golds are getting better that means that Diamond are getting better as well. Essentially if everyone improves, the skill difference between a Diamond and a Gold is still huge. I've done some practice matches vs a few of my teams lowest members (Gold community members) because they insist to play someone higher to improve. Every game has been a landslide win. Gold players still have the same problems they had a year, their macro still needs a lot of work and unit comp is still God awful.
On March 08 2012 19:12 freakhill wrote: "just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout. " This is hard for many people. And it is unfunny to spam the same build for many others.
Yeah, this is my problem. The idea of just doing the same build, particularly some kind of all-in, doesn't interest me. I just concentrate on spending my money, scouting, and playing as fast as possible.
I'm sure if I all-in-ed more I can fluke my way up the ranks ... but it's just not my idea of fun.
bronze got better, just like some here said, i enjoy going down there playing mouse only from time to time. I actual had great games in bronze when people played around with burrow and all the fun stuff, which you see rarely from gold to master. (there its more this one build macro stuff, which is really easy to beat as its easy to predict). Also people dropping down in league with leaving mess up the advancement system.
On March 08 2012 19:24 FeyFey wrote: bronze got better, just like some here said, i enjoy going down there playing mouse only from time to time. I actual had great games in bronze when people played around with burrow and all the fun stuff, which you see rarely from gold to master. (there its more this one build macro stuff, which is really easy to beat as its easy to predict). Also people dropping down in league with leaving mess up the advancement system.
I started playing a couple of months ago and am about to break into gold. My main struggle is actually due to watching streams and tournaments as I tried to make builds work that don't have the mechanics for to pull off.
Now I slowly start playing more in general, my mechanics get better and I get a better sense for the game. I forget to scout alot which is a huge issue, as well as the usual 'macro better' problem. When I'm in a proper flow I get big winstreaks, when I overthink stuff I lose. I get the idea that the level of lower leagues has improved as the game aged, which isn't a strange development. Ofcourse we're still 'bad' compared to higher level players, our build execution sucks and we don't have any sense of timing, but back in bronze I barely encountered an opponent that had no clue at all.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
Bronze is a mix of a whole lot of levels. You have bottom bronze which is full of portrait-farming win-traders. Then slightly above that is the group who can only beat those who voluntarily leave. Then you have the cheese, cheese, and more cheese please players. Then you have the true "bronze" level player, who actually belongs in what is supposed to be bronze league. Then you have the people from higher levels who come down and either troll the bronze league for giggles, or want many quick wins against easy competition for portrait farming, however not to the point of win trading, although most likely either cheese or all-in, sure to win stuff.
Some have mentioned that yes, Bronze level has improved, yet so have the others, but without numbers in front of me, I think it's safe to say that of the people who have stopped playing, most of them have been from Bronze league. If the %'s remain constant through the seasons, then the skill in Bronze league HAS to improve for that reason alone, not even considering the additional impact of simple player improvement over time.
On March 08 2012 18:51 ScienceNotBusiness wrote: oh, and pro players have mastered clicking buttons in the proper order, and that shit is just dumb nerd shit u need to practice....has nothing to do with any "real" skill...
This is actually real skill. Starcraft is for a GIGANTIC part a game of execution.
Let me be more specific... Learning how to hit 'c' before sending drones to extractors...or actually practicing using 2 - 3 control groups of units wouldn't be that hard. I, personally just dont try hard enough to practice it. Or, even using location hotkeys. I personally just focus on my own micro rather than "mastering" "better" "more pro" ways of doing things... I'm sure we can all relate. But, indeed if i wanted to truely improve my game, I would try to get used to using 3 - 4 control groups of units and better map movement via location hotkeys, possibly even incorporating my pinky into my play.... My point is I recognize a lot of things I learned by habbit, like many other players, and it would be quite an annoying hurdle to get over them. And since I switched to random, my former primary race 'Terran' has suffered a lot...I experiment every game, and I no longer hammer out builds over and over like I used to. This, combined with "hand mechanics" (outside of the game) makes it very difficult.
On March 08 2012 18:54 Vallz wrote: As a terran I really disagree with going full on macro. Honestly, terran in lower league suffers because we all know that terran needs more unit controls because they are alot more fragile. I think Terrans that are trying to get up should try to balance those 2 factors macro and micro to a good stable level. Although macro should always have an edge over micro.
I got out of bronze only dropping a few games doing only macro marine marauder, never getting an upgrade besides conc shells and shield. I also improved more in a a few days than the last few months playing without knowing how to properly macro. Bronze league is still incredibly easy for anyone with basic macro.
I've been playing a bit on a different account that's gold league EU. Gotta say, I haven't lost a game out of the 20 or so I've played on it, but gold league players have definitely gotten better at executing 1 base attacks. Sometimes it's also hard to figure out what gold leaguers are doing due to wonky gas timings/BOs as well. :p When I've ended up playing a macro game against goldies they're almost still as bad as they used to be though. :p I fully understand that you can be "relatively hardcore", while still being bronze. The way I've progressed is to just put in effort to refining build orders, and making my builds "99% of them are macro builds" safe against cheese. I genuinely think that cheese is keeping a lot of players down in leagues as well. So the way I see it is that if you see yourself as a casual player that just enjoys the game you're not really gonna progress much imo., unless you start putting some effort into your refining your play, and reading the game better.
On March 08 2012 19:36 Kaitlin wrote: Bronze is a mix of a whole lot of levels. You have bottom bronze which is full of portrait-farming win-traders. Then slightly above that is the group who can only beat those who voluntarily leave. Then you have the cheese, cheese, and more cheese please players. Then you have the true "bronze" level player, who actually belongs in what is supposed to be bronze league. Then you have the people from higher levels who come down and either troll the bronze league for giggles, or want many quick wins against easy competition for portrait farming, however not to the point of win trading, although most likely either cheese or all-in, sure to win stuff.
Some have mentioned that yes, Bronze level has improved, yet so have the others, but without numbers in front of me, I think it's safe to say that of the people who have stopped playing, most of them have been from Bronze league. If the %'s remain constant through the seasons, then the skill in Bronze league HAS to improve for that reason alone, not even considering the additional impact of simple player improvement over time.
No. Everyone in bronze sits on one base (sometimes 2 if they are a zerg), doesn't scout beyond an initial worker, and never moves out. The only time you ever get "cheesed" in bronze is a poorly executed 6 pool or a cannon rush. For the latter, they usually they have no idea how to actually cannon rush so they just walk in your base and try to build them right in front of you or something dumb like that. For the 6 pool, they generally just attack move (or whatever it is they do, since bronze players evidently don't know how to attack move) and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. If they were actually cheesing correctly they wouldn't be in bronze.
Further, anyone who portrait farms and actually plays out the games must lose just as many games to stay in bronze. So, there is no reason to be "stuck in bronze." Period. The reason everyone says to just macro your way out is because IT'S TRUE. Bronze is just as bad as it ever was. People who try to justify their bronziness by arguing that "players have gotten better," are just trying to come up with excuses.
On March 08 2012 19:12 Shadowcloak wrote: Ok so am i the only one that thinks the leagues are easier by far? i leveld a troll from bronze to diamond last month since i have time to sc2 it up again. And i can swear it felt easier than it did in say 2010. Which seems to contradict everyone who thinks bronze silver gold are now harder because numerous people left.
Not quite. The league rankings are arbitrary based on population size - the top percentile will be in Masters/GM; the mid percentiles will be Gold/Plat/Dia; the lowest percentile will be Silver/Bronze. Now let's say that the entire population has been playing for awhile (not true, but a lot of people are playing more and learning more) - overall skill levels either go up, or people that find themselves living in 75-100 bronze get fed up and quit. The population shrinks, but the remaining population as a whole are more "concentrated" with regard to skill - and the people leaving/starting the population don't all enter at bronze. As a whole, the entire league construct gains more skill, but a lot of that "skill" will probably wind up in the lower half of the rankings - there just is not a whole lot more improvement for the upper leagues, and improvement comes slower there. (Once they've got macro, micro down, and they begin forcing muscle memory and coordination, it's harder to improve if you have your basics down flat. And then game sense, situational decision making, and over all speed... faster faster faster.) It's not surprising that someone that can play Diamond or better will STILL roflstomp through bronze/silver/gold - but the overall skill levels in the bottom leagues is slowly creeping up. The overall skill spread may become smaller - somebody that was directly placed into silver in season 1, might be have been placed in bronze if he started now. It may be more noticeable in the lower leagues and possibly the upper leagues, but the middle leagues (where most players should wind up if they follow anything like a bell curve distribution - I know they probably don't) might be a bit "compressed".
Or Blizzard could completely have ignored anything approaching a statistical system, and have meaningless arbitrary ranks which mean someday everyone could be diamond... but I'd like to think the MMR system isn't that crazy.
I got out of Bronze using 3-rax. I stopped doing that and am now working on "standard" play. But I don't have the time (job, life, etc) to play 10-20 games a day so I imagine it'll be awhile before I move out of my current league, if I ever do. I don't mind - there's still a good 10 years in this game, if BW is any indication. (Of course, I'm older than White Ra now and I don't think my basic motor skills are really going to improve over time - but there's always hope, yes?)
On March 08 2012 19:45 Rockztar wrote: I've been playing a bit on a different account that's gold league EU. Gotta say, I haven't lost a game out of the 20 or so I've played on it, but gold league players have definitely gotten better at executing 1 base attacks. Sometimes it's also hard to figure out what gold leaguers are doing due to wonky gas timings/BOs as well. :p When I've ended up playing a macro game against goldies they're almost still as bad as they used to be though. :p I fully understand that you can be "relatively hardcore", while still being bronze. The way I've progressed is to just put in effort to refining build orders, and making my builds "99% of them are macro builds" safe against cheese. I genuinely think that cheese is keeping a lot of players down in leagues as well. So the way I see it is that if you see yourself as a casual player that just enjoys the game you're not really gonna progress much imo., unless you start putting some effort into your refining your play, and reading the game better.
I stopped SC2 for that particular reason. I'm pretty casual player and when I reached mid master it just required too much and I just got pisst off ^^
Everyone should be able to reach masters though only if you really like the game, all you have to do is dedicate this 1% more of your time and keep progressing!
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
This argument is exagerated. Yes, the player base has improved a lot, compared to when the game came out, but that's not an excuse, it doesn't change the fact that you don't have to be all that great to improve. I'm terrible myself, I'm high plat. When I play gold players, I don't go "god, I'm lucky I was placed in plat, gold players are so good now", I go "wow, gold players don't die to half-ass one base allins anymore".
If you have a decent gameplan for every matchup and focus on macro, there's no reasonable explanation why one would be stuck anywhere, it's so easy to improve and it's so easy to get wins using just that. The argument that the playerbase is getting better simply can't be used as an excuse for not improving.
If I went back in time to the release, I could probably get out of bronze building only queens. Nowadays, that might be harder since the player base has improved... but I could still easily get out of bronze building only zerglings.
as the ladder is a relative measure eventually it will see bronze being relatively difficult (that is for the new player) as the overall server population declines leading to more skilled people (i.e. people who were rated in higher divisions than the one that they will be in, in the future) being in lower leagues increasing the overall quality of gameplay.
On March 08 2012 19:12 freakhill wrote: "just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout. " This is hard for many people. And it is unfunny to spam the same build for many others.
Yeah, this is my problem. The idea of just doing the same build, particularly some kind of all-in, doesn't interest me. I just concentrate on spending my money, scouting, and playing as fast as possible.
I'm sure if I all-in-ed more I can fluke my way up the ranks ... but it's just not my idea of fun.
Well... to put it simply... that is an important step towards getting better at the game. You have to find a couple of proven good build orders, and practice them repeatedly until you can execute them correctly without half a dozen "oops I forgot to make ___ on time" mistakes that result in your attack being 45 seconds late. You have to get a specific gameplan in mind and learn to use it skillfully... you have to learn to like offense, and realize how strong it is to interrupt an unprepared opponent.
The mindset that "following a gameplan isn't fun", and "I'm just gonna make whatever random stuff I feel like" is what keeps people in bronze league. There's some undefineable thing called "fun" that you're a slave to, and you're choosing it as a goal that's more important than learning to win.
It's sort of like if you knew someone who is trying to learn the English language for the first time... but the only words he will study are the terminology for video games, martial arts, and movies. That's fine and all, but if he wants to actually learn anything he needs to switch to learning a list of 100 everyday words and basic sentence structure.
On March 08 2012 19:12 Shadowcloak wrote: Ok so am i the only one that thinks the leagues are easier by far? i leveld a troll from bronze to diamond last month since i have time to sc2 it up again. And i can swear it felt easier than it did in say 2010. Which seems to contradict everyone who thinks bronze silver gold are now harder because numerous people left.
Doesn't it perhaps feel easier for you because back in 2010 you were new to the game while now you've already got some experience?
If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
Spamming games usually works, quality turns into quality regardless how awful someone is, in their case they just require more on the quantity side Its a shame if people quite because of their rankings or something sc2 will be around for ages hopefully and I personally dont like changing hobbies :p .... anyone whose playing in any league now will be dominating the newcomers in the following years Just play more, none of the ladder fear stuff, get those ladder points moving so we dont have a recession on bnet 1v1 :p
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's actually a really common factor in every league. People just forget what they could be doing when staring at their scouting overlord/poking stalker+zealot/etc. It's just the higher you look on the ladder the more people execute without looking at the results (ie marine drop vs zerg = drop, stim, move into good position & check back again after you macro/micro other drops/army). When you understand the game and aren't exceptionally slow (you only have to hit about 60-90 apm) you should be able to reach masters by having your camera at the right spot at the right time (and ofc doing what you need to do then, but that should flow forth from game knowledge)
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
I believe him. it's totally possible
Destiny went from Bronze league to Platinum just by building only drones and queens. no other units, no spines. Some of his opponents stream cheated and knew what he was doing and still lost.
Dragon beats gold level players by building only SVCs, Planetary Fortresses and Turrents. 200 svc army > gold league.
He also did the same build against a master league zerg, but he had to use ghosts at the end to snipe the broodlords. That master league zerg was pretty angry saying something like "you dont deserve gg".
He also beats diamond league players using only mouse, no keyboard.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
No, they aren't.
Sure they are. Today's gold league is where platinum or better were in early season 1. However, that doesn't mean that they have a chance of beating today's platinum and up players.
From how matchmaking has gone for the last couple seasons in gold and platinum, I have the feeling that what's really happened is that the silver through platinum range has compressed quite a bit, so high silver and low platinum are pretty close. I say this because lately normal MMR fluctuations through winning and losing streaks have matched me, a mid-gold to low plat player depending on when, against platinum players (when I'm doing well) and silver players (when doing badly) even though I don't really have long good or bad streaks.
As for the OP, it's certainly possible to play a lot and learn a lot about the game and not get out of bronze. My own experience is that taking a step back and practicing macro can help.
To OP, I started my SC2 funtime back in the beta days, I got the beta key 1week before the beta was suppost to end, but to my supprise they extended it for 2more weeks due to a new patch. I remembet being placed in the good old copper league before they removed it, and was stuck in bronze for a year before I got promotet to silver league, wohoo! :D The time spent in bronze was the best games I have played so far. After the promotion to silver, gold and platinum quickly followed before I got to frustrated to play zerg anymore. So just play for fun, one day you will be promoted to, in my eyes bronze is the hardest league to get out off.
On March 08 2012 20:47 Dodgeball wrote: Destiny went from Bronze league to Platinum just by building only drones and queens. no other units, no spines. Some of his opponents stream cheated and knew what he was doing and still lost.
I watched much of him streaming that, and while I sympathize with the basic message (work on macro and don't worry about the rest) I think it's important to note that queens are a uniquely strong unit for Zerg for a few reasons -- they can heal, they hit both air and ground, and they require only a spawning pool to build. I think Destiny would have had a lot more trouble if he'd chosen to make, say, only zerglings, or maybe roaches.
So yeah, I say learn something from the bottom-line message, but what he did isn't proof that ANY unit can be equally viable with sufficient macro.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
I can definitely confirm people like you exist. In every field really. People spending tons of time on something without learning anything. Yes they build up some knowledge but develop wrong ideas based on their incapability to truly understand what's going on.
The amount of balance-complaint topics on the blizzard forums tell this story too. Even though the game is considered balanced on the high level. There is only details to talk about.
If you take Day 9's advice seriously and you practice what he preaches you'd not be in bronze. Period.
On March 08 2012 21:08 Gulzt wrote: I can definitely confirm people like you exist. In every field really. People spending tons of time on something without learning anything. Yes they build up some knowledge but develop wrong ideas based on their incapability to truly understand what's going on.
I think you're being too harsh. It's not necessarily that a long-term bronze league player's ideas are wrong, but that their priorities aren't what they should be. Also, an intellectual understanding doesn't necessarily lead to execution, so there may well be bronze players who know what they should be doing and just can't get there, for whatever reason.
Edit: Obviously I'm talking in very broad terms -- a master league player will be thinking about the game on an entirely different level than a bronze player, but the bronze player can still have difficulty executing what he knows he should.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
No, they aren't.
Sure they are. Today's gold league is where platinum or better were in early season 1. However, that doesn't mean that they have a chance of beating today's platinum and up players.
From how matchmaking has gone for the last couple seasons in gold and platinum, I have the feeling that what's really happened is that the silver through platinum range has compressed quite a bit, so high silver and low platinum are pretty close. I say this because lately normal MMR fluctuations through winning and losing streaks have matched me, a mid-gold to low plat player depending on when, against platinum players (when I'm doing well) and silver players (when doing badly) even though I don't really have long good or bad streaks.
As for the OP, it's certainly possible to play a lot and learn a lot about the game and not get out of bronze. My own experience is that taking a step back and practicing macro can help.
Interesting. As someone who bought the game at release, finished a 100% brutal campaign run-through, played about 250 games of 1v1 in Season 1 and 2, and hasn't played since, I'm curious to see how much has changed. I placed into platinum, and stayed in mid-platinum (very few gold or diamond opponents). One of these days I'm going to have to start playing again and see where I stand now... Silver? Gold? Who knows.
On March 08 2012 20:47 Dodgeball wrote: Destiny went from Bronze league to Platinum just by building only drones and queens. no other units, no spines. Some of his opponents stream cheated and knew what he was doing and still lost.
I watched much of him streaming that, and while I sympathize with the basic message (work on macro and don't worry about the rest) I think it's important to note that queens are a uniquely strong unit for Zerg for a few reasons -- they can heal, they hit both air and ground, and they require only a spawning pool to build. I think Destiny would have had a lot more trouble if he'd chosen to make, say, only zerglings, or maybe roaches.
So yeah, I say learn something from the bottom-line message, but what he did isn't proof that ANY unit can be equally viable with sufficient macro.
that was not the message, the message was "its very possible to get out of the lowest leagues by mindlessly building 1 kind of unit and then attacking, with good enough mechanics, this beats low league players."
there were 3 reasons queens were chosen: 1. it hits air and ground 2. you can get them before suffering buildorder losses
this is a requirement because else you lose to any kind of air rush by buildorder loss, and the reason hydras were not picked is because if you rush to hydras you buildorder lose to a bunch of shit.
for the record, pro players of every race have done this, building only 1 type of unit, terrans build only marines, protoss build only stalkers, those 2 got to diamond, destinies queens got him to gold.
in combat mass queens are only cost efficient vs air units, nothing else. they are not uniquely strong, they have unique attack targets.
3. to prove beyond all doubt that you can do the worst strategy imaginable and as long your opponent is awful, you can win.
Got the same "problem" which of course isn't a problem. I am in Silver League, I watch quite a lot of games, play like an hour a day, but my apm etc. just is to worse to get any higher. Sometimes I play very good games who are perhaps gold level, but I am not able to keep up that level, and I don't care either
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
I could see players stuck in Gold, if you play like 1-3 games a week or really unconsistant. But if you played more than 50gms/Season and watch SC2 tournaments i can't believe people are still in bronze. SC2 was my first real RTS and I was stuck in Bronze for ~100gms in october 2010, but after I got that I had to build alot more Production than in WarCraft III, I got really fast into Plat. If you got the basics of Build SCVs, Build Units I would say it's nearly impossible to be still in Bronze.
But whats so annoying is these players who are like: "I'm Top8 Bronze, what is basicly Medium Silver or Low Gold" -_-
I'm sorry but if you spend any amount of time on a regular basis playing SC2 you should not be bronze. Unless you have crippling arthritis in both hands.
Being complacent and taking [rather senseless] pride in your abilities keeps you in lower leagues.
While it is true the skill level is higher, it is higher for all distribution, thus irrelevant to you for comparing a present league to other present league. Might come in handy for a morale boost when a friend is mocking you for being in bronze now while he was in silver last year, however getting all technical about it won't make you play better.
Now back to being complacent: stop lying to yourself about having great games in your league, anybody ranked higher will tell you they are a complete mess. You don't compare to someone on your level to improve, you have to set the bar higher. Yes, that means you have to accept first that you suck, something the majority of people are unable to do, as stroking their own ego has a higher priority. My highest rank was top 8 diamond but because the standard for me was Masters/GM/tournaments i always considered myself mediocre (and still do).
Good luck in your endeavors, but Silver, Gold, even Plat should be a given for anybody with a healthy attitude about learning and being competitive while playing consistently ~8 hours/week.
Im new in sc2 and new in whole sc series, yet still I got lots of experience from other rts. Not a huge help but a little at least. I really suck in this game and I lose about double times more matches than win. Im not familiar about ranking system but it's low tier. I just wanted to tell my opinion that I enjoy games with a great challenge and I belong to my bracket. I dont play very much so I quess it takes me a while to get higher ranked, it's no problem
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
When I first got starcraft 2, I immediately played my placement matches(which I regretted when I wanted to try to get promoted). In these games, I used only common sense and some broodwar knowledge(make pylons for supply, make more production facilities if you have too much $, get units that can hit both air and ground, get detectors by your entrance and mineral line for cloaked stuff, if he expands you expand maybe even twice because most likely no attack will come for a few minutes etc.). I didn't open warpgates. http://drop.sc/128445
I'm diamond now but I can honestly say those matches were the funnest matches I ever had while playing because of the fact that I didn't know how any battle could turn out and the tides could turn in either players favor(which is why you see many lower league terrans float their buildings even after it's obvious to us the game is over). The adrenaline was on because no one knows what they were doing and we are like children in a candy store with no idea what diabetes or cholesterol is. Compare this to someone like idra, where if he sees a build order loss he might just leave the game right away because it's his job, which I can understand somewhat as his priorities in sc2 are to make money over having "fun".
Placement:Silver, but facing bronzes over 60% of time. I was never completely demoted to bronze, perhaps because of luck, but I probably should have been there.
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
I have played exactly 5 games with Protoss in my entire life. Couple days back, the most recent of those games was be absolutely murderifying a bronze Terran. I'm not very good, I'm just diamond Zerg, but that game was extremely easy for me, so I can't even begin to imagine that actually trying, you could be stuck in bronze.
Seriously, let's say you're Terran? Make SCV's, make supply depots, make barracks, and make marines. If you just make as many marines as you possibly can and you do it even kinda half well, you're gonna get out of bronze, even today. This is speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time at the bottom of the ladder.
I mean, seriously, I got placed in Platinum with Terran on EU recently, after never having played almost any Terran at all. I just made barracks units and simple stim attacks. Platinum. Better than 60% of the players on the server. It's not that hard...
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible.
I've played against all kinds of players, and have found my self in bronze. Basically, I was placed in Gold Season 1, played random switch races, lost games because of unit comps/timings I had never seen. Steadily decreased until I ended back up in Bronze Season 6. I still have great games in Bronze. Macro games, which usually end with me taking over 50% of the expansions, cheese games - still mix in a variety of proxy 2-gates, 4-gates, cannon rushes with or with out proxy gates, proxy starports, and of course the lovable 1-base mother ship.
I can tell you the average skill level in the bronze league is much higher than a year ago. For instance, I'm in bronze league, I'm synching probes on the closer patches, and using strong timings. When I first started I never even built sentries (other than 1 or two max for holding a ramp), but now I can donut groups and storm them/ use the forcefields to keep enemy units at colossus/stalker/immortal max range, and lots of multi-tasking. I recently won a bronze league PvZ (big macro game ended when both had 5+ bases and I got a nice flank on his broodlords) and was complemented on my multi-tasking. The opponent said he was using his best micro and macro, but I was on top of him at every step.
The biggest reason for my low league status is I'm stubborn and think I can design some new innovative build or something. I'll try these strategies like pheonix -> DTs -> mothership and lose 10 strait games because the build just doesn't work against any kind of standard play.
TL:DR playing the game should be playing. If you're in bronze play it for fun, don't get discouraged, and don't be embaressed. You're not going to be winning a code-s championship anytime soon, but don't let that stop you from having some fun.
On March 08 2012 23:02 UmiNotsuki wrote: I have played exactly 5 games with Protoss in my entire life. Couple days back, the most recent of those games was be absolutely murderifying a bronze Terran. I'm not very good, I'm just diamond Zerg, but that game was extremely easy for me, so I can't even begin to imagine that actually trying, you could be stuck in bronze.
Seriously, let's say you're Terran? Make SCV's, make supply depots, make barracks, and make marines. If you just make as many marines as you possibly can and you do it even kinda half well, you're gonna get out of bronze, even today. This is speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time at the bottom of the ladder.
I mean, seriously, I got placed in Platinum with Terran on EU recently, after never having played almost any Terran at all. I just made barracks units and simple stim attacks. Platinum. Better than 60% of the players on the server. It's not that hard...
Eh, just because you don't understand how someone could be in Bronze still even with playing regularly doesn't mean it's that easy for them to get out. Whatever reason it is keeping them in Bronze they seem to have made peace with it. Like any activity, there will be people that can grasp the concepts/skills that come with improving in this game and some that won't, but will still enjoy playing.
I know people that love basketball, watch all the time, play regularly but are still awful. Why? Who knows? But just because they're not getting significantly better doesn't stop them from enjoying the game. The thing is, do what you enjoy even if you're bad at it. Not everyone can be great at everything.
EDIT: Ah, ninja'd by the guy above me. He literally made the same point I was planning to make lol.
I got Sc2 for christmas and i play as zerg, ive been in bronze for a while because i thought i was ready for it but i wish i was in begginer league. I have 6 wins on 1v1 and 2 in 2v2 and IM getting better. IM hoping i can be in top 8 by spring break. Or even Silver. As for now WE all just got to keep practicig AND STOP GETTING RUSHED (My weak Point).
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
I believe him. it's totally possible
Destiny went from Bronze league to Platinum just by building only drones and queens. no other units, no spines. Some of his opponents stream cheated and knew what he was doing and still lost.
Dragon beats gold level players by building only SVCs, Planetary Fortresses and Turrents. 200 svc army > gold league.
He also did the same build against a master league zerg, but he had to use ghosts at the end to snipe the broodlords. That master league zerg was pretty angry saying something like "you dont deserve gg".
He also beats diamond league players using only mouse, no keyboard.
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Destiny could pull that off right now.
Maybe in the first month or two in SC2 but I doubt he would climb from bronze to plat with only drones and queens today.
Also Dragon beat SOME players yeah. But that isn't the same as he consistenly beats gold league players with scv, turrets and planetary fortresses.
I think that anybody can be stuck anywhere, but it's not necessarily permanent. I was stuck in Bronze for the longest time (ahem, thanks Blizzard for the never-ending ladder locks in early seasons), and then stuck in Gold for a while. Finally got myself to Diamond in August, but that seems to be the ceiling for my play...I've bounced between being a Platinum and a low/mid-Diamond player ever since. But seeing how I felt the same way about this "ceiling" when I was in Bronze, I know I can improve and make it to Masters at some point, it's just a matter of "when."
So, I don't think it's necessarily fair to call oneself a "Bronze level player" as though you're part of some caste. In time, whether you like it or not, you'll be a Silver/Gold/better-level player due to muscle memory and game knowledge, if nothing else.
I disagree heartily with posters who say that Bronze league, etc. are "better" now than they were in the past. Having taken many field trips to Bronze (forgive me) with my main account, the abilities of the average Bronze league player are no better or worse than they were when I was floundering in that place.
On March 08 2012 23:22 Sabin010 wrote: For instance, I'm in bronze league, I'm synching probes on the closer patches, and using strong timings.
By definition, a timing is not strong if it fails against such a low-level player. The big error I often see in low-level players is the mistaken timing: They go for a two-base all-in when their opponent is also massing units and is not going for high-tech or a third base. So, there's no timing window. I think some people see a player use a roach/ling/bane timing against a hellion expanding terran in a tournament and automatically think that's a strong timing. But it's weak to useless if the terran was safely expanding while getting siege tech.
On March 08 2012 22:55 xxgeffxx wrote: When I first got starcraft 2, I immediately played my placement matches(which I regretted when I wanted to try to get promoted). In these games, I used only common sense and some broodwar knowledge(make pylons for supply, make more production facilities if you have too much $, get units that can hit both air and ground, get detectors by your entrance and mineral line for cloaked stuff, if he expands you expand maybe even twice because most likely no attack will come for a few minutes etc.).
Hehe, I did the same thing when I got the game in 2010. I remember thinking, "well, Hydras were good in BW...guess I'll make a bunch of those." Did not go well!
I'm stuck in gold because i can't play enough, but the key is really to try to set a large macro goal along with finding a tactic and just try your best to keep that goal. I'd saythe key is to keep your minerals under 500, and the way to go about this is 1. hot key your first hatch 4 2. hot key all your hatches on 4 3. continue pressing 4 throughout the game 4. make extra supply when you don't have anything else to make 5. just make pure ling, ZZZZZZZ 6. overlords and lings to gold. Seriously, they can't do anything against you if you have so much more than them. Actually this should work all the way to or through gold when you will actually have to learn a strategy. Finally if progression is what you care about, you should know that by even playing 1v1 you are in the top percentile of players because most of them have stopped around your level because the game is so hard to be even ok at. I think that the way to progress is really to just ladder hard and not worry about losing. the key is to keep your minerals under 500 at all times past the early game and under 200 in the early game
On March 08 2012 23:22 Sabin010 wrote: For instance, I'm in bronze league, I'm synching probes on the closer patches, and using strong timings.
By definition, a timing is not strong if it fails against such a low-level player. The big error I often see in low-level players is the mistaken timing: They go for a two-base all-in when their opponent is also massing units and is not going for high-tech or a third base. So, there's no timing window. I think some people see a player use a roach/ling/bane timing against a hellion expanding terran in a tournament and automatically think that's a strong timing. But it's weak to useless if the terran was safely expanding while getting siege tech.
I mean, after scouting a gasless expansion going for a proxy starport all-in in TvP. Being active with the stalkers on the map before speed/concussive shells. The little things like that. NOT oh I got warp gate so im gonna do this timing with my warp gates into a Terran with siege. That's not a timing attack that's just suicide.
Without a doubt the skill distribution is much higher and narrower now then it was when the game was released. For example, shortly after the game was released I beat the campaign on normal then laddered. I didn't know what hotkeys were, I didn't know what control groups were and I was still able to win games. Come back a year later, watch tutorials, learn basic build orders, learn hotkeys, control groups. I was aeons better than what I was a year earlier and I still lost way more than I won compared to shortly after launch. My mmr dropped as low as it can go to the point that every opponent I faced was favored.
I think it's great that you still enjoy yourself even if you're in bronze. However, if I was in your position and practicing as much as youre stating, I'd probably change games. But that's just me. I think it's stupid to say leagues aren't an indicator of skill. It's smarter to say it's not an indicator of potential. It IS a measure of skill. Skill is your level of ability right now.
Following your logic, an all star NCAA player is as good as an all star NBA player. Yeah right. Different leagues.
On March 09 2012 00:34 serum321 wrote: Without a doubt the skill distribution is much higher and narrower now then it was when the game was released. For example, shortly after the game was released I beat the campaign on normal then laddered. I didn't know what hotkeys were, I didn't know what control groups were and I was still able to win games. Come back a year later, watch tutorials, learn basic build orders, learn hotkeys, control groups. I was aeons better than what I was a year earlier and I still lost way more than I won compared to shortly after launch. My mmr dropped as low as it can go to the point that every opponent I faced was favored.
Pretty much this. Skill levels these days are a lot higher than they were when the game launched. I'm currently silver with my zerg with average apm of 90-100. I hotkey stuff, expand, scout and make unit combos yet I still lose a lot. Beta/release was much easier in terms of player skill level.
If you have halfway decent macro you should win your games. And If you can´t macro I have no idea whats going wrong with you as your opponent is not involved.
On March 09 2012 00:52 Wrathi wrote: Pretty much this. Skill levels these days are a lot higher than they were when the game launched. I'm currently silver with my zerg with average apm of 90-100. I hotkey stuff, expand, scout and make unit combos yet I still lose a lot. Beta/release was much easier in terms of player skill level.
OK? My Zerg is Diamond (I Random now) with APM topping out in the mid-90s, on a very good day. Most games I'm around 75. You might just not know how to win games consistently yet. People focus on all the wrong things!
On March 08 2012 23:22 Sabin010 wrote: For instance, I'm in bronze league, I'm synching probes on the closer patches, and using strong timings.
By definition, a timing is not strong if it fails against such a low-level player. The big error I often see in low-level players is the mistaken timing: They go for a two-base all-in when their opponent is also massing units and is not going for high-tech or a third base. So, there's no timing window. I think some people see a player use a roach/ling/bane timing against a hellion expanding terran in a tournament and automatically think that's a strong timing. But it's weak to useless if the terran was safely expanding while getting siege tech.
Not to mention placing your first few workers on optimal patches is hardly being "good." It is doing something extremely minor that will only reasonably effect the outcome of a game if two players are playing at an extremely high level.
I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
i dont think it's an issue with knowing what to do really. Sure most of the bronze players probably don't know what to do, but really, it's just a lack of decent mechanics, and no consistency whatsoever. If anything, watching pro-players might very well make it worse, because they see things they can't actually do, AND they decide they're going to do them. But then five games later they decide they're never going to do it again and do something else instead.
From bronze all the way up to masters/high diamond, the only real difference is consistency and mechanics, with some degree of properly interpreting scouting to increase your win rate above 50%.
I see it didn't take long for the "taking the game seriously, still being in Bronze and enjoying it is IMPOSSIBLE" crowd to show up in this thread (specifically created because their overwhelmingly condescending attitude the OP describes on Reddit.)
People play tennis with friends without wanting to be Federer, people enjoy driving their Golf GTI at the limit without wanting to be Shumacher. Some people are happy to play at a lower level of SC2 because the skill matchup is balanced and they have a gg.
I'm not one of those people, as should be clear by now, but I am starting to realise it's the only way I will enjoy the game and I'm a little envious of OP!
I think pretty much anyone that is below diamond fails at one or both of these two things.
1. Constantly making scvs
2. Always spending your money
If you can do these two things, then you will have no problem getting into diamond.
And to expand on this for people who are trying to get better
- Scouting is half the battle( where is my opponents army, what is his army composition, what is he teching too?)
-learning what counters what.
- what is your weakness? work on it or support it by alternating your play style to avoid or cover up your weakness. I think a lot of people arent great late game or early game so maybe play more defensive early game or try to do 2 base timings if youre not great late game.
-always scout ahead of your army
-always fight in a favorable position for your army.
-learn to stop different cheeses, all ins whatever( youtube videos of how to stop these builds and learn them)
- learn an opening thats good against mostly everything and be perfect at. Whenever i was in lower leagues i learned a build for each race that let me scout regularly and be able to respond to anything i scouted from there its just making scvs and spending your money to make units.
I could go on but i think those are a few tips to improve your gameplay. Make sticky notes and put them next to your screen it will help for reminders.
And my personal opinion on apm and spamming at beginning of games. When I started in beta i had 40- 50 apm. I was a silver level player. I started spaming so I could train my muscles to move faster to these common movements that you make all game long. Eventually my apm went up and ive improved my apm by over a 100 actions per minute. So spam, but spam normal game actions, boxing, clicking buildings or mineral patches, hitting your control groups constantly.
I just don't think anyone who plays the game on a regular basis and watches replays and some pro level should have a problem being gold or plat. If you scout early for proxys and 6 pools and have an apm above 10 u should have no problem winning 2 of 3 games by using the most safe/ easiest build orders in bronze and silver. Bronze may have improved in the last year but I still believe that it's close to impossible to stay in bronze and it not be on purpose
On March 09 2012 01:26 Sky0 wrote: And my personal opinion on apm and spamming at beginning of games. When I started in beta i had 40- 50 apm. I was a silver level player. I started spaming so I could train my muscles to move faster to these common movements that you make all game long. Eventually my apm went up and ive improved my apm by over a 100 actions per minute. So spam, but spam normal game actions, boxing, clicking buildings or mineral patches, hitting your control groups constantly.
someone @hsc said something like
you start out by spamming the first 2 minutes then 3 then 4 and then 5 and hope that someday you can do this all game long.
but thats only one option.
you can also just play and hope that you will have a natural increase. my apm increased for about 30 over 1year without concentrating on it. just play.
On March 08 2012 23:22 Sabin010 wrote: I can tell you the average skill level in the bronze league is much higher than a year ago. For instance, I'm in bronze league, I'm synching probes on the closer patches, and using strong timings. When I first started I never even built sentries (other than 1 or two max for holding a ramp), but now I can donut groups and storm them/ use the forcefields to keep enemy units at colossus/stalker/immortal max range, and lots of multi-tasking. I recently won a bronze league PvZ (big macro game ended when both had 5+ bases and I got a nice flank on his broodlords) and was complemented on my multi-tasking. The opponent said he was using his best micro and macro, but I was on top of him at every step.
The biggest reason for my low league status is I'm stubborn and think I can design some new innovative build or something. I'll try these strategies like pheonix -> DTs -> mothership and lose 10 strait games because the build just doesn't work against any kind of standard play.
TL:DR playing the game should be playing. If you're in bronze play it for fun, don't get discouraged, and don't be embaressed. You're not going to be winning a code-s championship anytime soon, but don't let that stop you from having some fun.
I don't mean to be rude, but I think you're just making excuses for yourself here. No one is "stuck" in Bronze because they like to do weird strats. Perhaps gold. Definitely platinum. But not bronze. At that point there are way bigger issues involved.
On March 09 2012 00:52 Wrathi wrote: Pretty much this. Skill levels these days are a lot higher than they were when the game launched. I'm currently silver with my zerg with average apm of 90-100. I hotkey stuff, expand, scout and make unit combos yet I still lose a lot. Beta/release was much easier in terms of player skill level.
OK? My Zerg is Diamond (I Random now) with APM topping out in the mid-90s, on a very good day. Most games I'm around 75. You might just not know how to win games consistently yet. People focus on all the wrong things!
I tried Terran for fun, won 2, lost 3 games straight after that and won the next one and I got promoted to gold.
There's nothing wrong with being in bronze. Enjoying the game is what matters. If anything, being in a lower league is nice because people can pull off many more entertaining and original strategies. If people don't care about being "good", then bronze is fine.
The only problem with Bronze league, at least on North American ladders, is that 90% of players are going to cheese you in some way. That, or at least make some decent timing attack that's refined enough to win games in the first 10 minutes. So unless you're the one doing the Cannon rushes, 6 pools, or timing attacks, I can't really see how being in Bronze should be enjoyable for the standard player.
This makes experimenting with higher techs or different strategies almost impossible. So you watched a White-Ra game recently where he does some sick Warp Prism micro and kills a thousand workers with some Zealots? Now you wanna try that build in your Bronze league? Who gives a damn. You're going to die from an all-in Zergling attack before your first Cybercore barely finishes. GG.
There aren't enough legitemate Bronze players out there to make the league even close to interesting or respected. It's all about who can win enough games with cheese so they can advance to Silver or Gold and play some real games. An endless self-promoted cycle of cheesers.
On March 08 2012 19:10 BlackGosu wrote: people will just be bullies on the internet.
however i want to know, if you have that many games under your belt, you shouldn't really be in bronze league. just copy a standard build order and you will progress well. watch the money and supply and scout.
As far as wins go, I have the void ray avatar.. so a good number of games. I spent about a year just practicing with the intent of progressing before I decided to be content with it.
On reddit I mentioned that I had some higher level players mentor me a bit and check out my builds and reactions and such and they say I'm doing ok with it (briefly).
On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
This guy knows what he's talking about. Literally finding a build order, making workers and unit-producing facilities is all you need to practice till platinum/diamond. Instead there's a taught helplessness called "I'm too slow" and "I'm too bad" so i guess i'm just not good at RTS games.
As a masters player with quite a few friends that started in bronze I truly don't think it is possible to stay in bronze with 1/2 of the things you mentioned.
A simple use of hotkeys will get you out of bronze. You don't need micro to get out of bronze, you don't need consistent probe production to get out of bronze, you just need to be able to make workers, not always be supply blocked and make some sort of army (marines will do fine).
Some of the people who get stuck in a really low league probably have ADD that keeps them from focusing on what they're supposed to be doing. If you can't focus properly it's a huge handicap
On March 08 2012 18:45 Vallz wrote: Step 1 : Find a tactic to carry yourself out of bronze. Preferably some tactic that requires good timing because timing always helps! Step 2 : Reach gold / platinum level Step 3 : Now you have realised it doesn't work 80% time anymore, start to learn play properly. Step 4 : ??????????? Step 5 : Profit
That's basically how I reached Masters from Bronze :D
Well, I can understand people who just play for fun and don't do one boring tactic just to carry them to higher leagues.
I don't think many people here are actually listening to what this guy's saying. He's bronze, and he doesn't mind being bronze. He likes the games he plays. He's looking for other people like him. I don't know why that illicits 5 pages of mechanical, strategy, and mentality advice. He's already said he's not looking for that.
I am not bronze, but you might check out the "practice partners" thread and see if anyone on there is in a similar spot (they're organized by league, so you can see who's bronze, and find out if they're in a similar situation).
On March 09 2012 02:51 TheToaster wrote: The only problem with Bronze league, at least on North American ladders, is that 90% of players are going to cheese you in some way. That, or at least make some decent timing attack that's refined enough to win games in the first 10 minutes. So unless you're the one doing the Cannon rushes, 6 pools, or timing attacks, I can't really see how being in Bronze should be enjoyable for the standard player.
This makes experimenting with higher techs or different strategies almost impossible. So you watched a White-Ra game recently where he does some sick Warp Prism micro and kills a thousand workers with some Zealots? Now you wanna try that build in your Bronze league? Who gives a damn. You're going to die from an all-in Zergling attack before your first Cybercore barely finishes. GG.
There aren't enough legitemate Bronze players out there to make the league even close to interesting or respected. It's all about who can win enough games with cheese so they can advance to Silver or Gold and play some real games. An endless self-promoted cycle of cheesers.
Even if they cheese, they're not going to execute the cheese well. You can defend anything from bronze players without scouting since they're executing it poorly.
Also your example of trying a warp prism build when they're 6pooling is why lower league players don't promote. They don't scout or react to what they see, so they die to the same shit over and over and then blame cheesers when it's their own fault.
As for the OP, I honestly don't see how it is possible for someone to devote so much time to the game and still be at that level. Sounds to me you're doing more work than me or most of the people I know. But honestly if you don't mind and just want to have fun and enjoy your games like you said, then by all means accept where you're at.
People have this notion which has stayed from last year that Bronze players don't know hot to play the game at all and just build void rays and shit :p
While these people may still exist I play Zerg and every ZvP they did FFE and seemed to at least know what units to build at the right times ;p
On March 09 2012 03:32 Treehead wrote: I don't think many people here are actually listening to what this guy's saying. He's bronze, and he doesn't mind being bronze. He likes the games he plays. He's looking for other people like him. I don't know why that illicits 5 pages of mechanical, strategy, and mentality advice. He's already said he's not looking for that.
I am not bronze, but you might check out the "practice partners" thread and see if anyone on there is in a similar spot (they're organized by league, so you can see who's bronze, and find out if they're in a similar situation).
So much this. If you're happy being in bronze/silver/gold/plat/diamond/master then that is the whole point of playing a video game! Have fun with SC2! I myself have a perfectionist attitude in anything that I do so unless I am feel I am playing fairly well I will not be happy with myself. Other people like seeing cool units (I swear to God I'm going to learn a carrier build...) or doing cutesy things with muta harass or baneling bombs or cloaked banshees/dts etc.
Definitely go to the practice partners season 6 thread as mentioned above. It's a tremendous resource that not enough people use and you can play with any level person you want to as it is organized by league. Have you also considered doing any bronze level tourneys for fun? That'd be an easy way to make friends with people around your league.
The people who remain in bronze despite the fact that they are engaged in the game, are the people who never truly accept the fact that their macro is just bad. They go in circles trying different openings or strategies or compositions, and never tackle the huge glaring error which is keeping them where they are.
I've talked to plenty of bronze players who are either in complete denial about how bad their macro is, or just have a vague idea that yes, their macro is weak compared to better players, but they don't realize it is 95% of the problem, they think it's more like 30%.
I've coached some low level players, and I always start by doing the same thing:
Each player does an identical one base build, and we see who wins with no micro. I crush them, just because I have more units. This helps them to realize that it doesn't matter what opening or strategy or composition they make if they just have less stuff. And seeing someone make the same exact buildings and units and somehow "magically" having a bigger army starts to sink into their heads, that they are doing something wrong.
Hope this helps at least one bronzie out there. And to all the people saying "he's happy in bronze..." Believe me, 99% of them would be even more happy in silver.
Sorry but I too am having a hard time seeing how anyone who plays more than a couple hour a month for an extended period of time can remain in bronze. I came to SC2
I've tried giving advice to Reddit SC2 users and they all acted like they knew it was wrong and proceeded to bad manner me. I never posted there again and I would advice you do the same unless you like looking at SC2 meme's all day.
On March 09 2012 03:51 Mouzone wrote: Sorry but I too am having a hard time seeing how anyone who plays more than a couple hour a month for an extended period of time can remain in bronze. I came to SC2
On March 09 2012 03:51 Mouzone wrote: Sorry but I too am having a hard time seeing how anyone who plays more than a couple hour a month for an extended period of time can remain in bronze. I came to SC2
40% of people that play the game are Bronze
I believe it is just under 20% each in Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Diamond, with the remaining 2% in Master or GM.
On March 09 2012 03:51 Mouzone wrote: Sorry but I too am having a hard time seeing how anyone who plays more than a couple hour a month for an extended period of time can remain in bronze. I came to SC2
40% of people that play the game are Bronze
I believe it is just under 20% each in Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Diamond, with the remaining 2% in Master or GM.
Last graph I saw said that there were more gold players than bronze/silver/master/GM combined.
when I first started playing SC2 I got placed into Bronze I was initially very upset about being in Bronze. After a while I just stopped caring about what league I was and focused only on the players in front of me. Had more fun that way and when I eventually promoted it wasn't that big of a deal - I'm now in plat still with that same mentality and it's working pretty well.
As far as Bronze skill - being 'stuck' in bronze usually points to being stuck in place, skillwise. I dunno about you but one of my favorite SC2 aspects is the constant theme of improving
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
I believe him. it's totally possible
Destiny went from Bronze league to Platinum just by building only drones and queens. no other units, no spines. Some of his opponents stream cheated and knew what he was doing and still lost.
Hmmmph. I remember last season a guy went mass queens against me.
Once I realized what he was doing, I just took five bases and rolled over him with just 200/200 banes.
I think it all really depends on 'the type' of Gold player you run into.
There are people in Gold that got out of bronze by spamming the same cheese over and over again. There are people in Gold that have reasonable macro and micro but no real set builds. There are people that have average macro, but great decision making skills.
There's one thing I've noticed when I'm matched up with a platinum player or players that are supposedly better than me. Zerg players at these lower levels are much better at making in-game decisions, and Toss and Terrans in general have relatively shitty macro and rely heavily on set builds. Now that the map pool has changed, I have no problems smacking around Ts and Ps.
Nobody who is halfway competent at macro stays in bronze. To the person who said bronze league players do stuff like FFE now, that doesn't mean they are getting better. They usually have the first 5 minutes of a build down pat and then after that mark they get completely lost, float tons of resources, get supply blocked, don't have constant production and will execute their timing push or whatever at the 16 minute mark instead of the 10 minute mark. It really is that bad.
I got out of both bronze and silver using only macro and literally attack moving into the enemies base. I lost a few games to stuff like cloaked banshees because I am horrible in dealing with them, but held every poorly executed cheese in the book. Bronze league is as bad as it always has been, people in that league just don't know how bad it is because they have no reference point for timings and how much stuff you should have at what point in time.
The vast majority of people stuck in bronze-gold are taking a completely wrong approach to improving, but theres also just some people stuck in those leagues that are just not meant for RTS games (low competency level when it comes to stuff like SC2, they can't properly focus, they forget things all the time, etc). Generally, older gamers that are newer to sc2, (25-30+ years of age) have trouble with these things I put in brackets just because general focus/reaction times get worse as you age. And some people's minds just aren't cut out for processing a lot of information at once and carrying out numerous tasks.
But if you're younger and still having a really hard time with getting into plat or higher even with a ton of time (several hours per day, and months and months) put into watching pro replays, streams, analyzing your replays, and sufficient ladder practice... Then RTS games just probably aren't for you. That doesn't mean give up.. It just means don't get angry at yourself.
When I started playing this game about a year and a half ago I had absolutely no knowledge of what Starcraft was at all, no RTS experience.. I picked the game up because a friend recommended it.. I started off in bronze after skipping campaign and jumping right in losing all 5 of my placements... And within 3 months I was in Plat. (This was due to a combination of watching pro-level replays, and playing ladder games). This was with playing for about ~2 hours per day.
Now I am Mid-Masters level on my main account, its really tough to move up past that point without investing a LOT of time into analyzing and game knowledge.
dunno ive been in bronze, silver, gold and was pushing for plat but race switched, changed keybaord bindings 3 times etc
Moreover i know loads of builds, play all 3 races equally badly and have been keeping track of the metagame for over a year.
Could i get into plat or higher? Maybe ... can i be arsed to do it? Nope, id rather piss about with different stuff.
I find t and p players in silver+gold are executing timing attacks and fixed builds. Z on other hand is harder to say as the initial builds go on for longer ... its a lot easier to just have a build order loss as z in a tvz and pvz than the other way around i think (bar really early ling/roach/bling 1 base style cheese)
The kind of reaction time you are talking about isn't split hair trigger reactions ... its learnt muscle memory.
What you are saying is that nobody can improvise music once they are past 30 because they cant react with milisecond timing. What does diminish (maybe) is straight up response time to something hot ... but i haven't seen the evidence.
When people get older they spend more time training other skills, so the ones you value so highly diminish.
You need to find empirical data not for average people but for propel that actually train at a skill. Because lets face it 80% of people are lazy ass mothers that dont do much and slowly wither and die in a chair.
I hardly play games now. when i was high skill at games its because i used to play them several hours a day every day and train hard to get better. Now i just don't put in the time. Moreover i dont have as many people around me that are good, are competative about getting better etc. When you are a kid all your mates are into it so its easy to get good. Think about any game you are a lot better at then your mates ... you sat in a room and ragged it for a while - just so you could pwn them.
Eg Starcraft2 ... none of my mates play it, they have all diversified into other games and genres. When we used to have lan parties every 4 weeks we now have them once or twice a year. When we once had 50-70% rail gun accuracies we now have 30% because we havent played for so long.
One thing that is true as you get older is that you do have to make more conscious effort to refine out mistakes as you form habits faster i think. But then i taught myself guitar so i can use the experience of learning things slowly and perfectly to carry over. I also got to 1dan at a game called go and spent 2 years teaching people how to play that.
i dunno what im trying to say is that shit changes. To say reflexes slow is a gross over simplification that i think is not true. Its more a redistribution of skills ... wheras i used to be on a hair trigger i now think a lot more and am more conscious of how i do things - because a LOT more of what i do has a much greater knowledge content to it. What i am trying to say is that i need to be right 100% of the time at work ... that causes things to shift from being able to produce a crap ton into deliberate action - that is a real problem that i feel when i play. There is a mental 'yes' almost when i do stuff rather than simply having already executed a thought. That annoys me and maybe thats why reactions are slower ... btu if you put me on a reaction test i am still damn fast.
IE when i was a kid (<20) i was really good at solving things intuitively by the seat of my pants, now i deal with stuff to big to think about so i have to find other ways of dealing with it whilst still using that intuition to solve stuff. Its intuitive skills that the younger people have because they havent had to get very good at something they really suck at.
Oh yeah another big thing ... im usually playign after a day at work, when im pissed and usually stoned and dont do nearly enough exercise. When i was 18 that wasnt the case. Also i am sat on the edge of a sofa not at a desk like i used to ... when i goto lans and play on a desk people are amazed at how my mouse + keyboard accuracy improves.
Dont diss people as they get older, you'd be suprised at how wrong you are
wow thats a load of qq
In response to guy below ... i know i have bad mechanics ... poor multi tasking and bad mouse accuracy
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
i'm mid/top master and i think the leagues are a pretty good representation of your skill. if there is any misconception at all, it's that the skill gap isnt that big between leagues while in reality it's huge. even between top masters and low masters, there is a noticeable difference. when comparing between leagues, there is even more of a disparity. the skill gap gets even greater above masters as low masters < masters < GM <<< pro-gamers/GM kr < kr pro-gamers < GSL <<<<< DRG
i rarely have any trouble with anyone who is "low masters" and playing anyone below diamond is extremely confusing as i cannot read what the player is doing at all. he wont have an expansion well into the late game which causes me to throw up defenses in preparation for an all-in. but after i throw up my spines, no attack comes and he just sits in his base throwing up an expansion 10 minutes later.
if you're below diamond, u have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game and/or have horrible mechanics. i have never lost to anyone below masters but i admit i have lost 1-2 games against platinum protosses who just a-move deathball me.
I'm like you! I watch many dailies (not just funday monday), watch a lot of streams, all the big tourneys, and I've been mid-silver league for almost a year now. Recently, I've apparently got worse, since I haven't been matched up with many gold leaguers in a long time. Admittedly I was doing pretty well (top 8 silver, so potential for promotion) and then I got a job so couldn't play so much, and found that i wanted to do other stuff with my time as well as ladder (last season I didn't spend all my bonus pool for example, playing too many other games/2v2s with friends etc)
I know I could be better
I know my macro suffers, my engagements are often poor, etc etc.
I know all this.
But I have fun playing as I currently do, and I feel like I would have a loss of fun if I spent time analysing replays. The result would be a higher league, a better game, etc etc, but if that's not going to increase the amount of fun I get out of a game I'm not going to invest all my time into it. Don't get me wrong, if I was promoted to gold next season I'd be over the moon, but as is I'm not crying myself to sleep for my terrible play.
Also as a side, one of the things that people say really annoys me. "Oh it's easy to fend off bronze level cheese because they don't do it properly" Well guess what, I don't defend properly either! My cannon-rush defense is also bronze level! It's also shit! If someone 6-pools me, I sometimes just die. Because I'm a silver league player, and if I didn't, I would probably be gold.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible.
Seriously?
Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun.
Also as a side, one of the things that people say really annoys me. "Oh it's easy to fend off bronze level cheese because they don't do it properly" Well guess what, I don't defend properly either! My cannon-rush defense is also bronze level! It's also shit! If someone 6-pools me, I sometimes just die. Because I'm a silver league player, and if I didn't, I would probably be gold.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible.
Seriously?
Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun.
There are more one base all-ins in bronze/silver than anywhere else, I think.. low league players are generally scared of getting past 1 base.
On March 08 2012 18:51 GIhi wrote: I've played Call of Duty at a fairly high level, didn't do bad in arena on WoW either. SC2 was my first RTS. It took me quite some reading and watching to understand how the game worked, but nonetheless I slowly advanced from bottom bronze to upper bronze and after a month or so I got to silver, next season I got to gold where I am now. I don't play a lot but I think a good mentality is the most important thing while laddering. Also TRY to be fast, TRY to use ur keybinds like a crazy nestea mofo, TRY to scout and react. If u have been playing for that long u must know a lot of tactics, and u must know how to react to it. U can get to platinum by 6pooling with shit micro but that's not starcraft is it? Play like u should, improve like u should, and TRY!
I love how often I read things like this. Always makin me smile.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible.
Seriously?
Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun.
There are more one base all-ins in bronze/silver than anywhere else, I think.. low league players are generally scared of getting past 1 base.
Well, that's not so surprising. Many bronze/silver players are already banking a ton of resources on one base. This problem will only get worse with more bases. They simply get very little benefit from expanding because their production doesn't keep up. Add to that the fact that your natural is always harder to defend than your main and 1-base play becomes very interesting.
"I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that you've been watching Gonzini the Magnificent juggle 12 balls regularly on his livestream and you STILL can't juggle 3 balls consistently, even though you practice every weekend!"
I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder. The same can be said about the whole game. The skill-level in GM has gone up since it came out a year ago. Anyone in Diamond/Masters will beat a Sub-Plat player 9.9/10 times. It isn't because the Diamond/Master players are better at holding off cheese (which they are), but because they have a much better understanding of the game.
From my experience Macro players in Gold/Plat have a really good mid-game, but don't transition well into the late game. They don't understand when to take expos after their 3rd, or how to engage properly.
On March 08 2012 22:36 danielrosca wrote: While it is true the skill level is higher, it is higher for all distribution, thus irrelevant to you for comparing a present league to other present league. Might come in handy for a morale boost when a friend is mocking you for being in bronze now while he was in silver last year, however getting all technical about it won't make you play better.
I think distinguishing one's quality of play from one's ladder rank can be a positive thing to do, as long as it's not an excuse for complacency. Ladder rank tells you how you compare to the guy next to you, but worrying about how the guy next to you is doing doesn't help you get better.
I know I've gotten better in a lot of ways over the past several months despite a league ranking that's been pretty stagnant. It's obvious from looking at the actual games over time. There are still a lot of things I'm pretty bad at, though, so getting better just means I'm working on different issues.
For myself, I'd rather look at actual metrics that are meaningful in-game (supply vs. game time, win/loss rate in various matchups, etc) to measure my progress than a league ranking. The league ranking is mostly interesting for seeing where the population as a whole is.
On March 09 2012 04:53 ApeironLight wrote: I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder. The same can be said about the whole game. The skill-level in GM has gone up since it came out a year ago. Anyone in Diamond/Masters will beat a Sub-Plat player 9.9/10 times. It isn't because the Diamond/Master players are better at holding off cheese (which they are), but because they have a much better understanding of the game.
That's all very true, but the point of bringing it up is that a stagnant league ranking doesn't mean one is simply not getting better at actually playing the game, which is something a lot of players who have moved up in the ranks more quickly seem to assume. It just means that they're not progressing faster than the population on average (and probably aren't getting better very fast.)
From my experience Macro players in Gold/Plat have a really good mid-game, but don't transition well into the late game. They don't understand when to take expos after their 3rd, or how to engage properly.
Maybe, but many people in that range (including me) can have pretty spectacular mid-game failures as well.
I started playing in August and placed directly into bronze with no prior RTS experience of any kind. It took me about a month to get out of bronze and then two to get into gold which is where I've been for seasons 5/6 and I can say that without a doubt when I was in bronze I had basically 0 idea what I was doing and was just unbelievably bad. I would stay on 3 rax for like the whole game and take my natural at like 15 minutes. I mean just the most ridiculous stuff.
The thing that really opened my eyes about the game was this video I saw about expanding every six minutes while making non-stop workers/depots/marines/rax and just focusing on that...nothing else. It took a little while to get right but I tried that until I could do it pretty well and the bottom line is, if you're maxxed out at 14 minutes in bronze, you are going to win every game.
I stuck with that in silver for a bit but the strategy would fall apart at times against splash damage and I actually had to start learning builds at that point. In gold league, it's pretty much the same basic macro shit that's holding me back. I still get supply blocked, miss SVCs, don't spend money and it costs me the game. Sure, sometimes I have a huge lead and lose an engagement really bad which costs me the game, but most of the time it's like "Well, you had 27 workers at 10 minutes. What did you expect, retard?" I'd say more than anything else the biggest problem with my play is keeping up my macro while under pressure and unfortunately despite a lot of practice this isn't something that I've really gotten much better at.
Even though SC2 can be pretty frustrating it's still an amazing game.
On March 09 2012 03:38 K3Nyy wrote: Also your example of trying a warp prism build when they're 6pooling is why lower league players don't promote. They don't scout or react to what they see, so they die to the same shit over and over and then blame cheesers when it's their own fault.
I think the importance of scouting and reacting properly is often underemphasized. It's easy to tell a low-level player they should macro better but knowing how to play to survive doing so is 90% of the challenge. This is why Destiny's "I can just make queens and have good mechanics" misses the point that he has not only good mechanics but good positioning, good strategic thought, knowledge of what timings are likely to be coming up, etc., and no matter what he does he won't be able to just turn that knowledge off.
As for the OP, I honestly don't see how it is possible for someone to devote so much time to the game and still be at that level. Sounds to me you're doing more work than me or most of the people I know. But honestly if you don't mind and just want to have fun and enjoy your games like you said, then by all means accept where you're at.
It's been said before, but I think a lot of people in the OP's position are putting in all that work learning things that don't pay off as much as they could. I mean, it may be fun to work on, say, doing lots of drops, but that doesn't necessarily serve the goal of learning to survive playing a macro game.
On March 09 2012 04:53 ApeironLight wrote: I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder.
Probably because people keep bringing up one year old+ stuff like the mass stalker to diamond and mass queen to platinum thing, and I'm usually left thinking "god, those opponents they met were way worse than the ones I see".
On March 09 2012 04:53 ApeironLight wrote: I don't understand why people who are Bronze/Silver/Gold keep posting on the forums about how the level of skill in Bronze/Silver/Gold have gone up over the past year, so those leagues are harder.
Probably because people keep bringing up one year old+ stuff like the mass stalker to diamond and mass queen to platinum thing, and I'm usually left thinking "god, those opponents they met were way worse than the ones I see".
Mass stalker is definitely possible, at least to gold/plat
On March 08 2012 23:39 papaz wrote: Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Destiny could pull that off right now.
Maybe in the first month or two in SC2 but I doubt he would climb from bronze to plat with only drones and queens today.
Destiny did that almost a year into the game's release. I think people don't realize how good queens can be, IF you have excellent creep spread and good transfuse micro. They have a lot of health, decent damage, and the ability to heal each other pretty much constantly.
On March 09 2012 04:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I wonder if other hobbies have these threads.
"I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that you've been watching Gonzini the Magnificent juggle 12 balls regularly on his livestream and you STILL can't juggle 3 balls consistently, even though you practice every weekend!"
On March 08 2012 23:39 papaz wrote: Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Destiny could pull that off right now.
Maybe in the first month or two in SC2 but I doubt he would climb from bronze to plat with only drones and queens today.
Destiny did that almost a year into the game's release. I think people don't realize how good queens can be, IF you have excellent creep spread and good transfuse micro. They have a lot of health, decent damage, and the ability to heal each other pretty much constantly.
Rofl queens do absolutely no damage queens are very good support units in the early and late game but trash at fighting.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
i'm mid/top master and i think the leagues are a pretty good representation of your skill. if there is any misconception at all, it's that the skill gap isnt that big between leagues while in reality it's huge. even between top masters and low masters, there is a noticeable difference. when comparing between leagues, there is even more of a disparity. the skill gap gets even greater above masters as low masters < masters < GM <<< pro-gamers/GM kr < kr pro-gamers < GSL <<<<< DRG
i rarely have any trouble with anyone who is "low masters" and playing anyone below diamond is extremely confusing as i cannot read what the player is doing at all. he wont have an expansion well into the late game which causes me to throw up defenses in preparation for an all-in. but after i throw up my spines, no attack comes and he just sits in his base throwing up an expansion 10 minutes later.
if you're below diamond, u have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game and/or have horrible mechanics. i have never lost to anyone below masters but i admit i have lost 1-2 games against platinum protosses who just a-move deathball me.
You see, my theory is the skill gap between the higher leagues is getting increasingly huge, like you're saying, but the lower leagues (platinum and below) is really just a mish-mash of people cheese, poor execution or not knowing what they're doing. I sure there are platinum players that are worse then me, but I'm sure there is a silver player that doesn't play that often but could eat my lunch.
I guess all I'm saying is that Platinum and Below = bad, but Platinum does not automatically mean better than Gold or even Silver.
Silver player with low gold MMR here, I don't care really that I suck and I know I do. I play for 3+ hours a day on weekends and do some casual games in the weekdays and I do Playhem/Z33K but I still suck. Whatever.
On March 09 2012 04:44 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I wonder if other hobbies have these threads.
"I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that you've been watching Gonzini the Magnificent juggle 12 balls regularly on his livestream and you STILL can't juggle 3 balls consistently, even though you practice every weekend!"
if you're not zerg, do you build workers non stop? this is a fundamental problem for a lot of players. screw build orders, dont stop making workers, work your builds around the money you have while able to constantly make workers while not queuing more than 1, 2. once you're able to do this, move on to learning builds, analyze replays, whatever.
i do wonder about the difference between those who play 3 hours a day and is in silver and those who player 3 hours a week and in master. excluding past rts experience.
The same way you wouldn't ask someone with a 80 IQ to get a Ph.D., it's entirely possible for some people to simply not have the mental (or possibly physical) capacities to reach beyond a certain league. If it's your case, then it's certainly better to just be content about your position and enjoy playing at this level. There are always "below average" players, otherwise there wouldn't be "above average" players. The problem is more often than not that some people fail to realize they're part of the former.
On March 08 2012 18:45 Vallz wrote: Step 1 : Find a tactic to carry yourself out of bronze. Preferably some tactic that requires good timing because timing always helps! Step 2 : Reach gold / platinum level Step 3 : Now you have realised it doesn't work 80% time anymore, start to learn play properly. Step 4 : ??????????? Step 5 : Profit
That's basically how I reached Masters from Bronze :D
It seems silly, but this is true. If you want to get good at the game, it's almost impossible to play straight up vs. bronze players and improve. When I decided that I wanted to get good at SC2, I learned the 7-roach rush as zerg. At the top diamond level I am at right now, it's a pretty shitty build that's easily stopped, but down in the lower leagues it's really good. I did that same exact build non-stop until I reached top gold and then it stopped working so well. From there on, I played straight up normal games and won my fair share of them, even though I'd only done that one build for a while.
I honestly don't know how you could stay in bronze without deliberately trying to stay in bronze. Go read Gheed's blogs if you want an idea on how absolutely terrible bronze league is. He worker rushed to the "top" of bronze league for multiple seasons.
I play custom games every once and a while and will get sub-master and diamond players sometimes. 99.9% of the are just plain god awful. The other 0.1% I assume can either execute the 1 build they do well, or don't have time to ladder consistently. To me, bronze basically doesn't exist. You have to want to be in there, from my point of view. Or be brand spanking new to the game/genre.
On March 08 2012 23:39 papaz wrote: Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Destiny could pull that off right now.
Maybe in the first month or two in SC2 but I doubt he would climb from bronze to plat with only drones and queens today.
Destiny did that almost a year into the game's release. I think people don't realize how good queens can be, IF you have excellent creep spread and good transfuse micro. They have a lot of health, decent damage, and the ability to heal each other pretty much constantly.
Rofl queens do absolutely no damage queens are very good support units in the early and late game but trash at fighting.
Check your facts. Queens have roach DPS ground and even better air dps. Prob is they hit 4x2 everysecond, so armor rapes queen dps.
On March 09 2012 10:00 HardlyNever wrote: I honestly don't know how you could stay in bronze without deliberately trying to stay in bronze. Go read Gheed's blogs if you want an idea on how absolutely terrible bronze league is. He worker rushed to the "top" of bronze league for multiple seasons.
I play custom games every once and a while and will get sub-master and diamond players sometimes. 99.9% of the are just plain god awful. The other 0.1% I assume can either execute the 1 build they do well, or don't have time to ladder consistently. To me, bronze basically doesn't exist. You have to want to be in there, from my point of view. Or be brand spanking new to the game/genre.
Not trying to be mean, just my 2 cents.
It just shows the limits of your understanding. It is not really something to boast about...
Gold league rocks! There's so much stuff we can get away with that - so I've heard - doesn't work at higher levels, because down in gold everyone's mechanics are so bad. We have so much freedom to experiment. Drop in, nydus out, fuck yeah! You can play any kind of game you want in the lower leagues and still win half the time.
Have fun with the game. Just because you're bronze doesn't take that possibility away from you. If you want to get better, you'll have to change your approach. It's as simple as that. It isn't about watching streams or following what pros do...it's about learning to integrate knowledge about the game into your existing level of play. You won't instantly get better but you should always have a method for improvement. If that method doesn't work, try something new.
If the only thing about the game you want is to have a good time. Bronze is more than capable of giving games that people can enjoy. Just because it's not a Starcraft connoisseur's type of game doesn't prevent it from being a fun way to play. Most people here are playing this game because they want to compete. Whether that is on a lower level or at the highest level, SC2 is built around competition. Being one of those people, it's hard for me to understand the idea of being in bronze and still having fun. That doesn't, however, mean that everyone sees it the same way. In fact, I can't remember a higher game where I saw a mass BC build go up against a mass Carrier build. This weird and unconventional stuff happens in bronze and for some, I guess that could be fun. Unless I'm reading the OP incorrectly, this is what he is learning to enjoy.
I don't know why anyone would have a problem with a bronze player just enjoying themselves at their level. It's just all for fun so whatever you have fun with should be fine .
I think people are being a little tough on lower level players in this thread. It's not just a matter of deciding to macro, or deciding to start using a build. You can't just simplify it down to acting like you can improve just by choice, and players are only not succeeding because they chose not do a few easy things.
There are players in Bronze who are fully aware of all the standard builds, there are players in diamond who seem to be clueless even to the idea of standard builds. It is not just that simple. What you'll find when you watch games varying across leagues is that people win and lose based on the speed and accuracy of reactions, preparation for what the enemy can do, and remembering goals and necessary things they have to do as the game progresses. These are not things you can just choose to do, or not do.
Reaction time, memory, concentration, multi-tasking, and a lot of other things are just easier for certain people, and harder for others. They can be overcome of course, but you have to be understanding that improving from bronze to master may be a lot more difficult for someone else than you. It may seem easy to you to fool around in a master league game and still win, but it is not for others.
Be happy with whatever skills you have, and be understanding that others may not have them. They just probably have skills in other things which may not be as directly applicable to this particular video game.
On March 09 2012 10:26 Ashakyre wrote: Gold league rocks! There's so much stuff we can get away with that - so I've heard - doesn't work at higher levels, because down in gold everyone's mechanics are so bad. We have so much freedom to experiment. Drop in, nydus out, fuck yeah! You can play any kind of game you want in the lower leagues and still win half the time.
Whatever league you're in, enjoy it!
I hit high masters and lost all enjoyment of the game Only enjoyment now is smurfing on friend's account or playing team games.
On March 09 2012 05:44 Janders wrote: Rofl queens do absolutely no damage queens are very good support units in the early and late game but trash at fighting.
Twenty or so of them are a lot better than you think. I agree that taking cost into account they're not that great, which is why using them is a stunt that people don't do much in real games, but if you can build up the numbers, they can be effective.
On March 09 2012 10:00 HardlyNever wrote: I honestly don't know how you could stay in bronze without deliberately trying to stay in bronze. Go read Gheed's blogs if you want an idea on how absolutely terrible bronze league is. He worker rushed to the "top" of bronze league for multiple seasons.
Knowing how to deal with a worker rush is a pretty specialized micro skill. It's not necessarily a good test of broad game knowledge, though I have read his blog and there is some funny stuff in there.
Wow, well written Befree! I agree on every part, expect this one:
On March 09 2012 10:47 Befree wrote: Reaction time, memory, concentration, multi-tasking, and a lot of other things are just easier for certain people, and harder for others. They can be overcome of course, but you have to be understanding that improving from bronze to master may be a lot more difficult for someone else than you. It may seem easy to you to fool around in a master league game and still win, but it is not for others.
I don't think it's easier for some people than for others. It's more a factor of time investment, i believe. Sure, you could say; well, some people learn faster than others. But i could bet my ass off, many of the high league players gaind their skills by time, not by talent. So, the overall game knowledge is very high in every league, but mostly the lack of mechanics, micro and all the nifty stuff is missing. It would be interessting to see a chart on how many hours a player has played on average, for each league.
I agree with the sentiment that the skill level in the lower leagues has improved greatly. Personally I have been stuck in Silver for quite a while. A bit of frustration there lead me to do mostly 2v2s with my friend which got us to top Diamond. That makes me even more frustrated when I lose to Silvers haha.
But I know that the more i practice and try new builds, the better I get overall. And one day, the sky will open, a rush of knowledge with flash across the conscious mind, and finally I will be able to break through and enter the wonderful land of... Gold :D
As long as you don't have any illusions about going pro and you can still enjoy the game at the lower leagues, then no reason to get too down on yourself for not being the best
I know you aren't specifically asking for advice on how to improve, but I just wanted to interject that a lot of players try to improve by watching pros or maybe day9 (have not watched enough to comment). However there is a difference between watching to improve and watching for entertainment. Most people I believe watch mostly for entertainment even though they tell themselves they are watching to improve. Someone who is truely trying to improve will look for the reasons behind pro decision making and actively think about it and how it affects their own gameplay. Watching to improve should be a lot more stressful than watching purely for entertainment. The thing is if you watch the pros repeat the same decisions (and I mean simple decisions like what are the first 3 attack units you make with a build) consistently and then figure out why they are doing so, then there is no excuse why you can't incorporate it into your play. However lower level players keep making horrible mistakes that they shouldn't after analyzing pro players consistently do something else. I am keeping this example vague because I don't want it to be confused with copying someones build. Builds should be understood so that you know how to be reactive with them. The bottomline is practice should be practice, not lalaland where you just watch and lie to yourself about improving. No pain NO GAIN.
I don't want people to accept that they are bronze league if they don't want to. Bronze league players can improve. That is a no brainer. However if someone is satisfied with being in bronze then that's ok too.
I find it hard to believe that people struggle this much. I finally convinced my younger brother to pick up the game (who has never played an RTS before) and just taught him macro (build workers, don't get supply blocked, make as many units as possible) and he went from bronze to silver in a week, and silver to gold in 3 weeks. If you're still in bronze you just have bad habits and aren't: making enough workers, scouting enough, macroing at all. I'm not super good (platinum random player) but anytime I've played someone from bronze league I've always pictured someone either not using the keyboard or hitting it with their face.
Edit: Perhaps the fact that my brother hadn't developed bad habits and was super open to my instruction helped him progress faster. I went the day9 route and literally told him to ignore armies fighting in favor of macroing (because he's terran, not zerg like me ). When you get better you'll have time to micro, but macro is the base, so that's the first thing to learn even if it means losing games.
Bronze players shouldn't even be on tl or reading forums or watching day[9] or anything. Just playing single player, playing against easy-medium ai is imo good enough for silver. There should be less focus on the whole macro micro stuff, and just look at the game. I honestly (never tried it) but just want my friends to play while i watch and see how they do. I'm quite sure they'd be top bronze, needing to know 0 information about the game except which buttons do what
im a diamond player whos sandbagged an account to bronze.
if you know a single build order, you can win 90% of your games there. composition doesnt matter, as long as you spend all your money, you will win most of your games. composition barely matters, other than ground/air and super hard counters (i.e. marines v tanks)
I've played about 200 games, I'm a caster, I watch Day[9] along with Stephano's streams and watch Husky Starcraft with Total Biscuit, but I am gold in 2s but Bronze in 1's and 4's. I still enjoy myself but not as much, I'm not finding a challenge and I'm stuck at Rank #1 in Bronze 1's. Along with Rank #1 in Bronze 4's. I don't really see myself progressing much because I'm not playing with the same skill level as I would be in my set 2's team. It's a bit frustrating not advancing but the game is still enjoyable.
I often time play in Peepmode Metalopolis and that grants me a challenge and helps me improve my game. Like today for instance I went up against a diamond level player and did fairly well. (I checked his stats after the match to see what his real rank was, it was about mid diamond) but I see Peepmode being used more and more for low ranking players to pickup new strats/builds/timings and even core gameplay mechanics like spreading your overlords as Zerg and such.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
No, they aren't.
Sure they are. Today's gold league is where platinum or better were in early season 1. However, that doesn't mean that they have a chance of beating today's platinum and up players.
From how matchmaking has gone for the last couple seasons in gold and platinum, I have the feeling that what's really happened is that the silver through platinum range has compressed quite a bit, so high silver and low platinum are pretty close. I say this because lately normal MMR fluctuations through winning and losing streaks have matched me, a mid-gold to low plat player depending on when, against platinum players (when I'm doing well) and silver players (when doing badly) even though I don't really have long good or bad streaks.
As for the OP, it's certainly possible to play a lot and learn a lot about the game and not get out of bronze. My own experience is that taking a step back and practicing macro can help.
Interesting. As someone who bought the game at release, finished a 100% brutal campaign run-through, played about 250 games of 1v1 in Season 1 and 2, and hasn't played since, I'm curious to see how much has changed. I placed into platinum, and stayed in mid-platinum (very few gold or diamond opponents). One of these days I'm going to have to start playing again and see where I stand now... Silver? Gold? Who knows.
If you're going to do this, remember that Master's league didn't exist, and that's a factor, too.
On March 09 2012 09:28 jinorazi wrote: if you're not zerg, do you build workers non stop? this is a fundamental problem for a lot of players. screw build orders, dont stop making workers, work your builds around the money you have while able to constantly make workers while not queuing more than 1, 2. once you're able to do this, move on to learning builds, analyze replays, whatever.
i do wonder about the difference between those who play 3 hours a day and is in silver and those who player 3 hours a week and in master. excluding past rts experience.
This.
Also, I think the difference is usually past rts experience. Fundamentals are much more important in sub-master than strategy is, and fundamentals are hard to learn overnight. You can go all the way to masters without even thinking about strategy, but just building workers and a basic unit from one base. Apart from past rts experience the primary explanation is probably a mix of mouse accuracy and speed from other games and often a willingness to mimic pro play. Saying "LoL so many useless clicks he makes" is the first mistake.
On March 09 2012 13:21 courtpanda wrote: im a diamond player whos sandbagged an account to bronze.
if you know a single build order, you can win 90% of your games there. composition doesnt matter, as long as you spend all your money, you will win most of your games. composition barely matters, other than ground/air and super hard counters (i.e. marines v tanks)
It's true for diamonds too. MKP easily and repeatedly beat them with 2rax on stream.
On March 09 2012 10:47 Befree wrote: I don't know why anyone would have a problem with a bronze player just enjoying themselves at their level. It's just all for fun so whatever you have fun with should be fine .
I think people are being a little tough on lower level players in this thread. It's not just a matter of deciding to macro, or deciding to start using a build. You can't just simplify it down to acting like you can improve just by choice, and players are only not succeeding because they chose not do a few easy things.
There are players in Bronze who are fully aware of all the standard builds, there are players in diamond who seem to be clueless even to the idea of standard builds. It is not just that simple. What you'll find when you watch games varying across leagues is that people win and lose based on the speed and accuracy of reactions, preparation for what the enemy can do, and remembering goals and necessary things they have to do as the game progresses. These are not things you can just choose to do, or not do.
Reaction time, memory, concentration, multi-tasking, and a lot of other things are just easier for certain people, and harder for others. They can be overcome of course, but you have to be understanding that improving from bronze to master may be a lot more difficult for someone else than you. It may seem easy to you to fool around in a master league game and still win, but it is not for others.
Be happy with whatever skills you have, and be understanding that others may not have them. They just probably have skills in other things which may not be as directly applicable to this particular video game.
I can give a personal example. I am a deadly sniper for my dad's ranch- killing rabbits at 100+ yards- (very still, steady hands- maybe you can see my point already) and I am in bronze, although I will say I rarely play and rarely get the chance even. Haven't played for two seasons.
Edit: I use a scope of course. A football field is long, so are agricultural croprows and vineyards.
I started in october in bronze and am now in platinum, so i have fairly recent knowledge of what bronze league is actually like. while there i lost a lot of games, most of which were to cheese. knowing how to stop a cannon rush and scouting it out properly, and defeating it are two very separate things.
I fell like i managed to leave bronze league when i managed to learn three things, the first was how to play macro slightly better than my opponents, the second was to hold all of the cheese that occurs before the proper game starts (eg 6poool, cannon rush, proxy 2rax) and the third was to not get annoyed and tilt whenever i did lose to something silly, like banshee/DT.
Over-analysing any play below gold/plat is very easy. at gold level i started feeling like i needed set good build orders, and predictions/guesses i made about my opponents started to be right more often than not, whereas at bronze/silver, i would see a zealot heavy protoss army and ask myself "where is all his gas" and it would turn out to be him forgetting to take his second vespene while doing a tech build.
Talking to my friend who was diamond toss in season 2 before he switched to zerg, he feels that my protoss play now is not very far behind what his was back when he played toss, showing there has been a large amount of skill inflation over the last year.
I did 12 rax 14 cc and bronze NA opponent did a marine scv all in w 2 proxy rax on shakuras. Lets just say I have more rines and scvs when he attacked. I scouted it after my cc completed.
Bronze is much easier than bronzies make it out to be. I m not even masters.
Being a mid master I sometimes miss my bronze games; Was epic non-sense shit :D I developed a great BC rush that would just crush zergs who had only queens at 12:00
On March 09 2012 10:47 Befree wrote: Reaction time, memory, concentration, multi-tasking, and a lot of other things are just easier for certain people, and harder for others. They can be overcome of course, but you have to be understanding that improving from bronze to master may be a lot more difficult for someone else than you. It may seem easy to you to fool around in a master league game and still win, but it is not for others.
I don't think it's easier for some people than for others. It's more a factor of time investment, i believe.
There's absolutely iron-clad research evidence that people vary widely in their abilities in those areas.
I know that I, for example, have great memory, good concentration, and very strong analytical problem solving skills (exhibited by earning a physics degree and working at a highly technical job) but great difficulty shifting cognitive focus rapidly, which definitely puts me way behind many other SC2 players with the same time put into the game. In fact, my problem solving skills are probably aided by that unwavering focus, but it sure doesn't help when I'm trying to manage multiple things at once in Starcraft.
(Interestingly, when I was in elementary school I used to get horribly frustrated that I was slower than the rest of my classmates at basic arithmetic. Now, I'm faster at mental arithmetic than most of the people I know, but it's all because studying something numeric forced me to memorize a million various tricks so that I could keep up with the people who were just faster. That took a TON of practice, and I still have my slow moments.)
One of my practice partners, also gold league, has a similar academic background to me and is flat-out brilliant, but also falls apart on the multitasking and fast reaction time requirements of SC2. We have extremely close to a 50/50 win/loss record between us, but many of our individual games are completely one-sided because one of us or the other screws up at something essential in the multitasking arena.
Practice does help. I mean, I started in the dregs of copper league in beta and after making platinum last season I'm back in gold again, so there's at least a general, slow upward trend. However, I probably have 1000 hours playing the game, and I know many people who put in that kind of time get a lot farther with it.
So yeah, bottom line is that no matter what kind of cognitive task you choose, there's a lot of variation.
Here's one other thing: I remember taking the ASVAB in high school, which is the vocational test issued to new military recruits to determine for what professions they might be qualified. One of my worst areas was called "coding speed," a section of the test which consisted entirely of large blocks of the letters O with some of the letter C mixed in. The task was to indicate how many Cs there were in each block.
I blasted past the rest of the test to an extent that I was getting continuous phone calls from military recruiters, who were usually disappointed to hear that I was graduating from high school at 15, and thus not able to sign up for whatever they were after.
On March 09 2012 11:13 Striker.superfreunde wrote:
On March 09 2012 10:47 Befree wrote: Reaction time, memory, concentration, multi-tasking, and a lot of other things are just easier for certain people, and harder for others. They can be overcome of course, but you have to be understanding that improving from bronze to master may be a lot more difficult for someone else than you. It may seem easy to you to fool around in a master league game and still win, but it is not for others.
I don't think it's easier for some people than for others. It's more a factor of time investment, i believe.
There's absolutely iron-clad research evidence that people vary widely in their abilities in those areas.
I know that I, for example, have great memory, good concentration, and very strong analytical problem solving skills (exhibited by earning a physics degree and working at a highly technical job) but great difficulty shifting cognitive focus rapidly, which definitely puts me way behind many other SC2 players with the same time put into the game. In fact, my problem solving skills are probably aided by that unwavering focus, but it sure doesn't help when I'm trying to manage multiple things at once in Starcraft.
(Interestingly, when I was in elementary school I used to get horribly frustrated that I was slower than the rest of my classmates at basic arithmetic. Now, I'm faster at mental arithmetic than most of the people I know, but it's all because studying something numeric forced me to memorize a million various tricks so that I could keep up with the people who were just faster. That took a TON of practice, and I still have my slow moments.)
One of my practice partners, also gold league, has a similar academic background to me and is flat-out brilliant, but also falls apart on the multitasking and fast reaction time requirements of SC2. We have extremely close to a 50/50 win/loss record between us, but many of our individual games are completely one-sided because one of us or the other screws up at something essential in the multitasking arena.
Practice does help. I mean, I started in the dregs of copper league in beta and after making platinum last season I'm back in gold again, so there's at least a general, slow upward trend. However, I probably have 1000 hours playing the game, and I know many people who put in that kind of time get a lot farther with it.
So yeah, bottom line is that no matter what kind of cognitive task you choose, there's a lot of variation.
Here's one other thing: I remember taking the ASVAB in high school, which is the vocational test issued to new military recruits to determine for what professions they might be qualified. One of my worst areas was called "coding speed," a section of the test which consisted entirely of large blocks of the letters O with some of the letter C mixed in. The task was to indicate how many Cs there were in each block.
I blasted past the rest of the test to an extent that I was getting continuous phone calls from military recruiters, who were usually disappointed to hear that I was graduating from high school at 15, and thus not able to sign up for whatever they were after.
I agree. I'm keenly aware of my shortcomings as a player, and I know that some stuff is just inherently more difficult or easier for me than they are for other people. I am clumsy and undextrous, so I have to use a lower-DPI mouse in order to achieve the same precision as other players-- I have to be very careful, for example, to click "PM" instead of "logout" on the TL webpage when I want to go to my inbox, and if I do it too quickly I'll logout. I'm unable to easily reach across multiple keys on the keyboard, so I rebound all my hotkeys and control groups to bring them close enough for me to reach without my left hand "getting lost". Even so, I still have disadvantages in these areas. Certain aspects of mechanics (related to timing and rhythm) come to me immediately, and other kinds of mechanics (selection, spacial awareness, and targeting) are very difficult, relative to what my practice partners experience.
People think, learn, and move differently, and will master (or not master) part or all of the game at a faster or slower rate.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
This is very true everyone was worse back then but it has come to a plateau point now probably. But someone who is Mid-Masters right now could probably have easily been GM Season 1,2
On March 09 2012 17:20 Blazinghand wrote: I have to be very careful, for example, to click "PM" instead of "logout" on the TL webpage when I want to go to my inbox, and if I do it too quickly I'll logout.
People think, learn, and move differently, and will master (or not master) part or all of the game at a faster or slower rate.
I'm left-handed but learned using the mouse with the right-hand since young age. I can't switch, but I felt for long I was behind in my mouse-control because of it.
I was awful at this game, I couldn't beat it. But at the end of the month I hit it with zero mistakes 3 runs in a row. Their is a harder variant of the game with a smaller window and a higher punishment for failing. I managed to beat that one as well.
Just very important that you keep track of your improvements. Use a spreadsheet, see in a graph how you're gradually improving. I would make close to 100 fails before I could beat at first and made it happen to perfection. Train all the time in game! In early game, do this training: leftclick "cc/hatch/nexus" then leftclick a mineral. after clicking a mineral you click on the mainbuilding again, then the seond mineral patch, back, 3rd patch, back etc.. I extremely often misclicked at the beginning of my practice. Today I rarely miss a click, only when I try it too fast. But already I can do this extremely fast now.
I tried practicing a worker split, I just couldn't do it. After my training, I have no more trouble with it.
We all have strengths and weaknesses. Try and improve your weaknesses, you can most certainly get it at a better level if you put your mind too it. Also invest in good equipment. Get a Goliathus mousemat, buy a gamer mouse, this will help immensely.
This training is useful in all your computer work.
On March 09 2012 15:37 Kingy604 wrote: I started in october in bronze and am now in platinum, so i have fairly recent knowledge of what bronze league is actually like. while there i lost a lot of games, most of which were to cheese. knowing how to stop a cannon rush and scouting it out properly, and defeating it are two very separate things.
I fell like i managed to leave bronze league when i managed to learn three things, the first was how to play macro slightly better than my opponents, the second was to hold all of the cheese that occurs before the proper game starts (eg 6poool, cannon rush, proxy 2rax) and the third was to not get annoyed and tilt whenever i did lose to something silly, like banshee/DT.
Over-analysing any play below gold/plat is very easy. at gold level i started feeling like i needed set good build orders, and predictions/guesses i made about my opponents started to be right more often than not, whereas at bronze/silver, i would see a zealot heavy protoss army and ask myself "where is all his gas" and it would turn out to be him forgetting to take his second vespene while doing a tech build.
Talking to my friend who was diamond toss in season 2 before he switched to zerg, he feels that my protoss play now is not very far behind what his was back when he played toss, showing there has been a large amount of skill inflation over the last year.
I don't see rushes very often at all.
Most games end up to be macro games, 3 bases, mid map aggression, dealing with drops in bases at the same time, etc.
On March 09 2012 13:21 courtpanda wrote: im a diamond player whos sandbagged an account to bronze.
if you know a single build order, you can win 90% of your games there. composition doesnt matter, as long as you spend all your money, you will win most of your games. composition barely matters, other than ground/air and super hard counters (i.e. marines v tanks)
It's true for diamonds too. MKP easily and repeatedly beat them with 2rax on stream.
Also following up with this, im >90% winrate with pvp 4gate and pvz blink stalker all ins @ mid dia when i choose to do them.
There will always be a bronze league because it is by definition the lower percentage of the whole gaming group. Even if all players increase in skill, there will always be people who are not so skilled
On March 11 2012 04:00 Odal wrote: So any of the people saying bronze league has increased in skill mind sharing some replays?
To avoid any potential bias issues, I'll just select two games at random from my replay folder. I have no idea if they'll confirm or deny the "lower leagues have gotten better".
http://drop.sc/129481 is a silver ZvT from October 2010. Not sure which season that is, but its pretty old http://drop.sc/129484 is a silver TvZ from about 2 weeks ago.
On March 11 2012 04:00 Odal wrote: So any of the people saying bronze league has increased in skill mind sharing some replays?
Smurf. That applies pretty generally only to bronze. I either completely ahnilate or get destroyed, one guy finally told me to wait after gg and said he was a diamond Zerg postgame (I gg'd too fast) I think this is largely the problem you did not forsee. Rank 1 bronze smurf. I am 60 something, although as mentioned above I never play. Yet I was rank 13 right before that game. I think smurf destroys bronze MMR, that's where you get bronze to gold-plat stories, once you break through it kind of becomes smooth sailing. Smurfs tend not to be gracious though and give you the win, like my example guy tried to do. Just did this today, will send anyone a couple replays if they want.
Most smurfs are made to vent, right? So they want their win. My example was offracing though.
On March 09 2012 09:51 CursedFeanor wrote: The same way you wouldn't ask someone with a 80 IQ to get a Ph.D., it's entirely possible for some people to simply not have the mental (or possibly physical) capacities to reach beyond a certain league. If it's your case, then it's certainly better to just be content about your position and enjoy playing at this level. There are always "below average" players, otherwise there wouldn't be "above average" players. The problem is more often than not that some people fail to realize they're part of the former.
I don't think its an intelligence capacity. I'm a Physics major and work for the aerospace/defense industry.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
I find it very hard to believe. My girlfriend was never a gamer type. She didn't play anything even remotely related to RTS before. She plays sc2 like 1 hour every 2-3 days (started about 3 weeks ago), I showed her some basics like hotkeys and where to look for BOs, then she's completely on her own. She's now already top25 bronze and beating silver players constantly. If she did even half of what you described she'd be out of bronze already by now. If she's able to do it, then how can somebody actually into gaming/sc not able to do it is beyond my understanding.
You're probably doing something very very wrong.
Well, I've had higher level players mentor me, and I watch streams, tournaments, etc. A LOT. I guess it's possible but.. yeah, I don't know what to tell you.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Well, I spent a good year playing pretty hardcore, with guidance from diamond players (mostly). It's not like I don't want to improve anymore; I still play with the intent of learning.. but enough time has gone by that I'm aware of, and comfortable with the idea that I'm not going anywhere, that's all.
On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
I was about to write a guide as to how you can get promoted, as I thought that was what your last sentence(which was a little confusing) was but then I realized it was not what you wanted.
Choosing to play a competitive game and wanting to be the lowest tier possible.
Seriously?
Maybe not "wanting to". But being content with it? Sure. Higher league games don't look like much fun at all. More one-base all-ins with workers, more bad manners, more stress. Low league games are actually fun.
There are more one base all-ins in bronze/silver than anywhere else, I think.. low league players are generally scared of getting past 1 base.
This isn't true at all. In most of my games I get to 3 base (as protoss).
Edit: I just responded to a lot of people in separate replies, there doesn't seem to be a multiquote button? Sorry!
To the guy who recommended the bronze channel, thanks! that's exactly what I was looking for.
On March 09 2012 13:15 phiinix wrote: Bronze players shouldn't even be on tl or reading forums or watching day[9] or anything. Just playing single player, playing against easy-medium ai is imo good enough for silver. There should be less focus on the whole macro micro stuff, and just look at the game. I honestly (never tried it) but just want my friends to play while i watch and see how they do. I'm quite sure they'd be top bronze, needing to know 0 information about the game except which buttons do what
So very, very not true. My past replies will deal with this...
There is definitely an executive function that you need to get good at an RTS. For example, the first thing I did when I got the SC2 beta was sit down and plan out allllll of my hotkeys. I then spent the next 20-30 games losing a bunch but just learning my hotkeys. To this day I still use the same setup. Whenever I hit 0 I know I'm going to have my evolution chambers. Whenever I hit 7 I know its going to be my first macro hatch.
That style of methodical thinking and practice is what separates the leagues. Its not enough to just play games and not think about how to improve. I generally believe that people who complain about not being able to move up in the ranks are exaggerating the amount of work they're putting in.
For the record I was in diamond each season until last season when I stopped playing.
On March 11 2012 15:25 Dental Floss wrote: There is definitely an executive function that you need to get good at an RTS. For example, the first thing I did when I got the SC2 beta was sit down and plan out allllll of my hotkeys. I then spent the next 20-30 games losing a bunch but just learning my hotkeys. To this day I still use the same setup. Whenever I hit 0 I know I'm going to have my evolution chambers. Whenever I hit 7 I know its going to be my first macro hatch.
That style of methodical thinking and practice is what separates the leagues. Its not enough to just play games and not think about how to improve. I generally believe that people who complain about not being able to move up in the ranks are exaggerating the amount of work they're putting in.
For the record I was in diamond each season until last season when I stopped playing.
I use a lot of the same hotkeys that I used in BW, for example, my Nexus is on 4 again as protoss; the 4-E for a probe is nice for my finger. What is included in "executive function"? The hotkeys I'm pretty good with.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
I'm not saying I'm good, but I certainly disagree that there isn't a difference between approaching the game by improving ones mechanics/reads and praying that your zealot rush pans out.
And I don't believe you can beat any gold player with any race with any unit. Well, maybe marines. But certainly not hydras.
I'm currently diamond and when I've off-raced with some of the most appalling mechanics you've ever seen (floating 1k at 4 mins whats up) I've beaten high gold and some plat players, mostly because their decision making is bad. Be careful about putting yourself on a pedestal because you'll have difficulty seeing just how badly you play, even I myself sometimes think I play reasonably well and then I watch the replay sometime later and cringe at how oblivious, inefficient and sloppy my play is.
it is really hard for me to believe that there are players that play a lot and still remain in bronze. If you play 1h a day for a month your mechanical skill should increases enough to outmacro other bronze players.
Another reason why i can't believe that there aren't just like 8-14 year old kids in bronze or people that never play video games at all and make like 1 game each month is this guy he is Quadriplegic as you can see in the video and was able to get to diamond.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
There is a peak in mechanics, but studies have shown that it is only reached after 10 YEARS of dedicated study and practice. This applies to highly technical and mechanical things like professional sports and music. Nobody has hit a mechanical ceiling in SC2.
On March 11 2012 15:25 Dental Floss wrote: There is definitely an executive function that you need to get good at an RTS. For example, the first thing I did when I got the SC2 beta was sit down and plan out allllll of my hotkeys. I then spent the next 20-30 games losing a bunch but just learning my hotkeys. To this day I still use the same setup. Whenever I hit 0 I know I'm going to have my evolution chambers. Whenever I hit 7 I know its going to be my first macro hatch.
That style of methodical thinking and practice is what separates the leagues. Its not enough to just play games and not think about how to improve. I generally believe that people who complain about not being able to move up in the ranks are exaggerating the amount of work they're putting in.
For the record I was in diamond each season until last season when I stopped playing.
I use a lot of the same hotkeys that I used in BW, for example, my Nexus is on 4 again as protoss; the 4-E for a probe is nice for my finger. What is included in "executive function"? The hotkeys I'm pretty good with.
It is the ability to create goals, and make plans to meet those goals. It is managing details, understanding problems, and controlling your own actions.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
People are better than that in bronze league, or at least most of the ones I play against. During the aggression that occurs when blink is up or collosus are available, it's not unusual to also be getting harassed at a natural at the same time, or to be getting flanked with whatever, getting stormed, blah blah.
I have had very long strings of victories with just a small number of losses mixed in. I have also been closer to 50, depending on what people are doing. Does BNET give that somewhere? I often find that I'll have a hard time after there is a good Day9 strat, or something comes out of a tournament that people are doing, like crazy muta play after DRG had a good match, and that will give me some trouble.
Is there a way to give a replay without giving my name away? I've had some issues doing that in the past...
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
People are better than that in bronze league, or at least most of the ones I play against. During the aggression that occurs when blink is up or collosus are available, it's not unusual to also be getting harassed at a natural at the same time, or to be getting flanked with whatever, getting stormed, blah blah.
I have had very long strings of victories with just a small number of losses mixed in. I have also been closer to 50, depending on what people are doing. Does BNET give that somewhere? I often find that I'll have a hard time after there is a good Day9 strat, or something comes out of a tournament that people are doing, like crazy muta play after DRG had a good match, and that will give me some trouble.
Is there a way to give a replay without giving my name away? I've had some issues doing that in the past...
I've played bronze league games on my friends account while teaching him to play and I promise you that all of this is in your head. If you macro smoothly you'll literally have twice as many units as someone at the 10 minute mark. As a Zerg I'm often maxed at 13 minutes. Check your replays and see what your food is at the 13 minute mark and then report back. I'll bet its less than 120.
I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, but my real "skill revolution" was purely a macro thing. Never before or after this did I have such a jump in skill.
I had been playing bw and following the scene for years. I was a pretty bad player, a D or D- protoss. One day I decided I would focus solely on my macro. I would make sure I was making probes and units constantly, making enough pylons and gateways, and NEVER letting my money get too high. After a couple days of this, I would almost feel physically ill if I looked up and saw that I had banked 1500 minerals. I trained myself to hate it. Now, before my macro training, I already knew a fair bit about the game. I was awful, but I knew a lot of builds, a lot of counters, had watched the pro scene for years, etc. After I got my macro up to snuff, I went from a D- to a C- player in under a month. For those that don't know iccup, this would probably be equivalent of a long-time Silver player getting to Diamond or Masters. Once I had that basic mechanical skill and had trained myself into a consistent cycle, the skill stayed with me and carried over into SC2. I could probably go into a new RTS with ZERO knowledge of the game, aside from what building/unit gives me supply and one basic unit that can attack both ground and air and play my very first game at a Gold/Plat equivalent level. I'm not trying to say I'm especially good. I'm trying to say that that disparity between Bronze/Silver/Gold players and the rest is almost universally a macro disparity. You can be a strategic genius in Bronze or a monkey that's been trained to do a repetitive macro cycle in Diamond. If you are someone who has been trapped in Bronze for an extended period of time, I would assume that you are thinking of the game and improvement in the wrong way. Starcraft doesn't become a strategy game until you reach a certain level of proficiency. Until then, it's almost a rhythm game like Guitar Hero or something. Learn patterns you need to execute, and do them over and over until you make few mistakes.
Strategy and unit composition are so overrated in bronze/silver. These are things that matter between people of equivalent macro. If you macro correctly you will have more supply than your opponent by the 10 minute mark and should be maxed with a 50 supply lead not much later than that. They also scout rarely if not at all so you can take hidden expos for days without being denied. While they are busy working on tech and composition trying to get to their strategy of choice that they see in pro games, you just overwhelm them with the unit of your choice.
On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
I guess I'm living proof that this isn't true.
Season 2 ended with me being top diamond as terran, which realistically looking back was also my limitation.
Started now as zerg to have some fun, a race i have only played with in starcraft 1 campaign. Very weird mechanics to get accustomed to, but 10 games later i was out of bronze, injecting every 2 minutes, looking of for shortcuts w/ mouse, forgetting to start buildings, no creep, no overlords and all the good stuff. Hitting gold is harder than i expected to be honest, 50 games and i'm still losing to stupid sh-_- that honestly make no sense.
So about the forever bronze thing, you're probably doing something WRONGER than i did, which is pretty hard to beat.
On March 11 2012 16:13 3clipse wrote: Starcraft doesn't become a strategy game until you reach a certain level of proficiency. Until then, it's almost a rhythm game like Guitar Hero or something. Learn patterns you need to execute, and do them over and over until you make few mistakes.
Well tbh I broke my way out of Bronze after my first season there, currently in the heady heights of gold lol, but of course there are loads who will never make it out.
People don't seem to be able to comprehend or accept the fact that there will always be LOADs of people in lower leagues, its the nature of any game/sport. Lets take football (soccer for you Americanos). It is played on many levels and enjoyed at those levels. People play 5 a sides with work/school colleagues just for fun and don't get angry that they are nowhere near being Christiano Ronaldo, its just they enjoy a kick about.
To put it simply, just because it is the lowest league in the game, doesn't mean people should stop playing because they cannot get out of it. Have fun, it's a game!
On March 08 2012 20:12 Nallen wrote: If I was to try and say why I still suck so bad I would put it down to knowing what to do, but not doing it. Stupid right? But it doesn't seem to be changing. I have a decent inject method, I set the hotkeys for it...I just don't use it. I know I have to keep my money low but I still suddenly have 2k/1k at 40 supply every game. Knowing and doing are very different things. Accepting that I probably will never master the doing regardless of how much I know sucks, but it's the case.
It's because you are not practicing the correct way. If you have to constantly remember what to do you will never get better. This is why learning a build or just practicing macro is so important. You need to do everything exactly the same a bunch of games in a row so that macro basics such as keeping up on supply, constant production, expanding etc are not decisions to be made in game but just steps to be made in a overall game plan.
The only reason I keep posting this link is because it helped me so much, and nothing sucks more than being stuck in bronze never getting better.
I do this! I have a few different builds written out on paper that I have spent several weeks on, back when I was playing with the intent of getting out of bronze. These were a 4 gate variation, 3 gate robo and FFE.
When I watch my replays, my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases and the army sizes grow. This seems fairly typical from what I see in higher leagues though.
If you can keep your money low on two base you should be able to outright win all your games in bronze lol. Just do two base collosus or blink stalker or zealot or basically anything and a-move to victory.
Whats your winrate, if I might ask? above 50%? Do you have any replays?
People are better than that in bronze league, or at least most of the ones I play against. During the aggression that occurs when blink is up or collosus are available, it's not unusual to also be getting harassed at a natural at the same time, or to be getting flanked with whatever, getting stormed, blah blah.
I have had very long strings of victories with just a small number of losses mixed in. I have also been closer to 50, depending on what people are doing. Does BNET give that somewhere? I often find that I'll have a hard time after there is a good Day9 strat, or something comes out of a tournament that people are doing, like crazy muta play after DRG had a good match, and that will give me some trouble.
Is there a way to give a replay without giving my name away? I've had some issues doing that in the past...
I'm not sure if you can. It's ok if you don't want to give your name away, I have no problem with that.
Any bronze player trying to use a strat from a day9 daily or pro game will be easy to beat, because their mechanics are not good enough to get such a composition in a timely matter. I guarantee it will take any bronze league player twice as long to get the equivalent tech/unit count as a high level player, and even then their execution will be off.
Here's a question, do you generally play passive? As a terran player working on my macro, i generally attack in regular intervals (7 minutes while expo, 11 minutes, 15 minutes, etc) unless an attack goes particularly well (which is often) in which case I just end it. You would be surprised at how effective low supply aggression is. If all you do is build up an army and sit around with it, you will allow them to get their desired unit composition even with horrible macro. You should be expanding/teching behind aggression in low leagues.
People need to just relax when they play.. winning or losing a ladder match means NOTHING and i think ppl get to involved to infested in one game. If you lose you lose.. if you win you win. If your in bronze your in bronze... its not that OH i made gold once so im really gold in bronze.. NO your bronze. ENJOY it till you do get better. Having an RTS background in gaming helps you so so much, if this is your first RTS then you are taking a crash course in learning. Relax play the game and if your in whatever league thats just what you are.. someday you will get better and starting owning more. :D GL HF and I think the "HAVE FUN" part of that is lost in a lot of gamers.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
disagree, I faced 3 bronze players in placement who seemed like they just purchased the game (not knowing how to wall off), i think everyone is ulimately limited and no matter how much you play you will never surpass a particular level of control/apm, understanding always improves.
I rarely see this kind of incompetence.
have you completed 1v1 placement within the last week? lol
On March 09 2012 01:16 ThaZenith wrote: I can't understand people who watch pros yet remain in bronze, without throwing games/trying to be horrible.
All you need is one build that expands, and be able to keep making workers. Bam, ur gold or higher. It's literally that easy.
I can however understand forever-bronzies who don't follow a professional scene. It can be a lot harder to understand how to be good if you have no reference points.
I guess I'm living proof that this isn't true.
I can second that. I never throw a game, and nor am I horrible. I follow the scene by watching streams and tournaments daily. A silver person challenged me a couple days ago, and I wrecked him half-asleep after staying up all night...so I can't be that bad. lol My BF who is high level platinum watches games I play and it's still good fun to watch SC2, even at the bronze league level. He says not executing during the right time is a big problem I have. I do better when he coaches me and tells me when to attack. I beat gold/silver players sometimes on my own. Also, you hear casters talk about timings in almost every game. It's a huge part of winning. You can have the right build, and make plenty of workers, but if you don't use your army efficiently and attack at the right moment, you will lose.
As a mid-level silver player one thing I've noticed is that easily 30-50% of my games are against high level players that are either working their way down to bronze or back up from bronze. Seems worse at the beginning of the season. (note that I am assuming that people I play with 60+ apm, and 15 games under their belt are in fact second accounts for higher level players).
I've learned to live with it. I presume half the people doing this are bored and trying to entertain themselves. The other half are likely trying to learn a new race (but already have much better mechanics and timing than me).
it does makes for a very frustrating experience, though. I lost 13 games in a row in two nights at the beginning of season six. Some due to people sandbagging, others due to frustration that built up. Tonight I played three games (made back most of those losses since then). The first was a legitimate match up. The second was against a season 5 master level player (that quit at minute zero) and the third was against a previously high level gold Zerg. He at least took the time to play me and clearly win before quitting. I was his umpteenth loss in a row.
Are the leagues tougher - I think so, at least in part due to the havoc that the aforementioned issues impact your play experience or mmr.
argh lower leagues are getting fucked up :/ 1st match against someone that shouldn't be gold, 2nd match against an instant leaver that *needs to lower his mmr because he doesn't want to go to masters* thus inflating my mmr and maintaining me in gold instead of sinking to silver...
continuing on my precedent post half an hour ago, i just beat a "silver" terran with 150 apm, then i watch the replay, go look at his history, and then i see him insta leaving games (2 games instaleft after he lost a macro game against me), apparently he didnt tank his mmr enough...
There's overlap between the boundaries of leagues (there are some people in gold who should be silver, and some who should be plat) but that's just how the system works. But plat players are significantly better than gold/silver/bronze, from first hand experience. Diamond is significantly better still, and masters even more so.
I started 2 years ago, was placed in silver. I still only play 1-2 hours a day, but the difference ist, im master league now, i daily watch streams, playing 5-8 games every day. What i'm saying is, you CANT be to slow for higher leagues than bronze, it is so .
But playing every day 10 games without thinking about it, won't help you to become better, play less games but think about it, and you will recognice you're improvement.
Any person willing to get out of bronze or silver or whatever league you want to obtain is capable of doing so and it's extremely easy. The only excuse for being at those levels is that you are either not willing to learn and/or not willing to change.
Just following the pro scene and watching streams all day will NOT improve your level of play. I have a friend in silver who follows a lot of sc2 pro scene and has a good understanding of the game, but when I watch him play he makes the same mistakes over and over which prevents him excelling at the game.
Day9 said it well that once you fix a something in your game you develop more problems because you don't know how to adapt to the new possibilites. So you have to work on only a few things at a time if you want to get better. You cannot simply just play the game and expect to get better. You have to focus on certain areas of your game if you want it to improve.
This is why everyone always says all you need is decent macro to get up to atleast diamond which is so true. Following build orders and timing attacks will not help you improve. All it does is teach you how to do the same thing over and over again. Build orders and timing attacks are designed to counter other build orders and timing attacks. If all you do is use the same build order every game you are just praying that you opponent is doing the exact thing it counters. It can work out a lot in lower leagues because most people at those levels have no idea what they are doing anyways, but if you just learn how to macro you will progress. I went from gold to diamond in 2 weeks because I learned how to make 200/200 roaches by 12 minutes with 1/1 and speed. You can apply the same concept to marines or stalkers and crush every game at low levels by just a-moving across the map.
Noobie players like to pretend like they have good macro or use excuses like they need the right unit compostition or build order or timing attack when in reality those things simply don't matter at low levels of play. You have to admit to yourself that you don't know what you don't know and accept the advice from better players. If you want to be the best you have to learn from the best it's that simple. You cannot be stubborn or you will never learn or change.
This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
I don't understand what this means, how can there be a hardcore bronze player?
I'm high masters, and I demolish any diamond and even some low masters players that I play in customs (friends, for example). Its not even remotely close, I simply outplay them. If there's such a huge skill difference between masters and diamond alone, bronze must be unfathomably bad.
Sorry but I can't say I agree with the purported theory that bronze players aren't as bad as they used to be. There was a blog written by Gheed I think, which basically showed how he has a 50% win rate with worker rushing in bronze... I mean common...
Also read the above post for basically all my points about bronze league.
Edit: I can agree, however, that the overall skill of all the leagues has risen since a while back when the game started. However, the skill of masters and gm has risen faster than the other leagues in my opinion.
I dont know about other races, but for terran, just watch halbysc's mineral drill on youtube. takes 5mins to learn and will get you out of bronze league, almost guaranteed...through macro, not some weird cheese.
when i train young badminton players who cant seem to hit right to the edge of the court, i tell them to hit it out of bounds, sounds weird but they cant see and feel what is it not close enough and whats too far, then they can finetune their shots
Before I tried the drill, i didnt know that if you contain ur opponent from the start, 15mins later, you CAN be on 6 base and FORTY-FVE rax, thats what macro is. once you feel what that kind of macro is, you know what to aim for. I found it helped me tremendously to break the bronze league mentality.
On March 12 2012 06:52 vorxaw wrote: I dont know about other races, but for terran, just watch halbysc's mineral drill on youtube. takes 5mins to learn and will get you out of bronze league, almost guaranteed...through macro, not some weird cheese.
Interesting, I'll have to take a look at that one, I've never seen a Terran macrostomp attempt before.
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
On March 12 2012 03:26 xlava wrote: I don't understand what this means, how can there be a hardcore bronze player?
I'm high masters, and I demolish any diamond and even some low masters players that I play in customs (friends, for example). Its not even remotely close, I simply outplay them. If there's such a huge skill difference between masters and diamond alone, bronze must be unfathomably bad.
Sorry but I can't say I agree with the purported theory that bronze players aren't as bad as they used to be. There was a blog written by Gheed I think, which basically showed how he has a 50% win rate with worker rushing in bronze... I mean common...
Also read the above post for basically all my points about bronze league.
Edit: I can agree, however, that the overall skill of all the leagues has risen since a while back when the game started. However, the skill of masters and gm has risen faster than the other leagues in my opinion.
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
I don't care how untalented or stupid you are, if you remotely put any effort into learning and practicing the game you should be out of bronze. (unless actually mentally or physically challenged). If you are actually just trolling in games and your objective is not to win but just have fun then thats fine.
However if you consider yourself "hardcore" and still in bronze and even silver/gold/plat then that just means 2 things : highly delusional ( no effort or practice but still expect to be "above average") or just mentally incapable
not trying to be offensive, but just trying to say it how it is
On March 12 2012 07:32 biology]major wrote: I don't care how untalented or stupid you are, if you remotely put any effort into learning and practicing the game you should be out of bronze. (unless actually mentally or physically challenged). If you are actually just trolling in games and your objective is not to win but just have fun then thats fine.
However if you consider yourself "hardcore" and still in bronze and even silver/gold/plat then that just means 2 things : highly delusional ( no effort or practice but still expect to be "above average") or just mentally incapable
not trying to be offensive, but just trying to say it how it is
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Please. Post. Some. Replays. Use http://drop.sc/ You don't even have to register. Otherwise this discussion is going nowhere fast. I can't help because to be quite honest, I've only ever played half a dozen games against a bronze, and they've never been macro games.
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: The secondary for writing this is that I spent a long time rather frustrated that I was still in bronze, and I wasn't enjoying myself. Perhaps someone else is in this situation... a switch to being OK with your level of play might do what it did for me, and bring more enjoyment to your play time!
At least for me, starcraft is all about improving. If you've convinced yourself it's not possible for you to improve any further then your play will stagnate. That could be said for all skill levels. If you don't have a goal to move out of bronze then any advice I say isn't necessary anyway. But if you are, I would simply concentrate at looking at what caused each loss and making little adjustments towards making sure you'll be in good shape next time it happens. Especially at bronze I wouldn't spend much time overanalyzing replays or other such things, just work from experience and have an attitude that you can/will improve over time.
EDIT: I also feel that an undertone of this thread is to say that bronze league actually has great players in it or to say to yourself that you are a great player while in bronze. Just keep in mind, some of the best players in the world wouldn't even say that they're good players. Again, it's all about improving. And of course, if it's not about improving for you, then you pretty much have to accept your current league standing because how else can it change.
People seem to forget, in order for their to be someone at the top, someone has to be at the bottom. The leagues silver - Diamond will vary in skill. Bronze will always contain the very worst players at the bottom of it. Masters (grandmasters..depending on how screwed up the season is) will always contain the very best.
The fact that so many people have left, and people are improving means the league standard will change all the time. Your league is not a bench-marker of skill.. the boundaries are forever shifting and your compared to the players around you.. not the league itself. What I mean to say... you could be in the top 50% of players.. but if all of the player base below you leave.. guess what... now your in the bottom percentile.
I'm a Gold Zerg.. who after 2-3 seasons with no games (broke pc) is back and I've lost every 1v1 so far... no doubts I'll be silver soon enough. What was working a couple seasons ago for me, is not now.. Metagame shift and a quality increase. Back to the drawing board. I'll jsut keep playing and improving.. aim for plat/dia for HOTS when it all resets anyway.
I tell u this Adamg. There is another problem people don’t think about when they are in the lower leagues. That is to accept their limitations. Being bronze means u don’t have the required multitasking to do everything. Meaning u can’t Do great macro, micro and good decision making at the same time. If u only focus on building probes without queeing them will suffer in other parts. If u try to have good units management u will suffer in the macro department. If u try to do everything while not having the ability to do it u will just end up with not being able to do any of them. So my point is that u might be trying too hard to be good. Instead choose one thing and focus on that and don’t overdo it .
For instance I decided to focus on macro only when I was in bronze. I used to just a-move my army and go back to base and macroing. Even if my opponent crushed my army I would still win because my macro would allow me to throw way new army over and over again since my opponent focused on unit management and chose not to macro. I also lost allot of matches even when I had 10 times better economy because of not having enough units or throwing them away to much. I focused too much on making workers and expanding that i keept losing more games then i won. So my advice is this than. Focus on your macro in the beginning of the game only. And after u expanded switch your focus to unit management and let your macro slip. This means no fancy presure builders,bunker rushes or stuff like that at the begining of the game. After your ecnomy is sett u should not worry about building workers or if your mony floats. Just try to controll your untis and get good engagments.
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
On March 12 2012 08:29 Anomi wrote: I tell u this Adamg. There is another problem people don’t think about when they are in the lower leagues. That is to accept their limitations. Being bronze means u don’t have the required multitasking to do everything. Meaning u can’t Do great macro, micro and good decision making at the same time. If u only focus on building probes without queeing them will suffer in other parts. If u try to have good units management u will suffer in the macro department. If u try to do everything while not having the ability to do it u will just end up with not being able to do any of them. So my point is that u might be trying too hard to be good. Instead choose one thing and focus on that and don’t overdo it .
For instance I decided to focus on macro only when I was in bronze. I used to just a-move my army and go back to base and macroing. Even if my opponent crushed my army I would still win because my macro would allow me to throw way new army over and over again since my opponent focused on unit management and chose not to macro. I also lost allot of matches even when I had 10 times better economy because of not having enough units or throwing them away to much. I focused too much on making workers and expanding that i keept losing more games then i won. So my advice is this than. Focus on your macro in the beginning of the game only. And after u expanded switch your focus to unit management and let your macro slip. This means no fancy presure builders,bunker rushes or stuff like that at the begining of the game. After your ecnomy is sett u should not worry about building workers or if your mony floats. Just try to controll your untis and get good engagments.
Totally agree I still practice and try to improve - I don't mean to say that accepting my league means I don't care anymore. I still love this game a great deal.
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
While true that Golds are getting better that means that Diamond are getting better as well. Essentially if everyone improves, the skill difference between a Diamond and a Gold is still huge. I've done some practice matches vs a few of my teams lowest members (Gold community members) because they insist to play someone higher to improve. Every game has been a landslide win. Gold players still have the same problems they had a year, their macro still needs a lot of work and unit comp is still God awful.
I would agree with this. But, if you took a gold player today, they would have been at least Diamond a year ago.
But that's not saying a lot. You could take a Master's player today and they'd be a pro.
But it's interesting, playing silver/gold level players and seeing shockingly good micro. Decent marine splits, good blinks, excellent kiting.
On March 12 2012 08:53 Micket wrote: Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
On March 12 2012 08:53 Micket wrote: Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
i can easily do your little macro challenge. last match as zerg i remember i ended up 80 drone on 4 bases with low banking and decent creep spread. i have around 100 apm. i am silver.
On March 09 2012 09:51 CursedFeanor wrote: The same way you wouldn't ask someone with a 80 IQ to get a Ph.D., it's entirely possible for some people to simply not have the mental (or possibly physical) capacities to reach beyond a certain league. If it's your case, then it's certainly better to just be content about your position and enjoy playing at this level. There are always "below average" players, otherwise there wouldn't be "above average" players. The problem is more often than not that some people fail to realize they're part of the former.
I don't think its an intelligence capacity. I'm a Physics major and work for the aerospace/defense industry.
I don't think that either, I have a friend in bronze who has a masters degree in programming, his problem is definitely not intelligence. He also has good macro. Micro, not so much.
His biggest problem is that he basically dies to any kind of mineral line harassment, because he doesn't manage to save his workers. He reacts poorly and just crumbles.
If there was no mineral line harassment or multipronged attacks he would be out of bronze in no time. But luckily there is.
On March 09 2012 09:51 CursedFeanor wrote: The same way you wouldn't ask someone with a 80 IQ to get a Ph.D., it's entirely possible for some people to simply not have the mental (or possibly physical) capacities to reach beyond a certain league. If it's your case, then it's certainly better to just be content about your position and enjoy playing at this level. There are always "below average" players, otherwise there wouldn't be "above average" players. The problem is more often than not that some people fail to realize they're part of the former.
I don't think its an intelligence capacity. I'm a Physics major and work for the aerospace/defense industry.
I don't think that either, I have a friend in bronze who has a masters degree in programming, his problem is definitely not intelligence. He also has good macro. Micro, not so much.
His biggest problem is that he basically dies to any kind of mineral line harassment, because he doesn't manage to save his workers. He reacts poorly and just crumbles.
If there was no mineral line harassment or multipronged attacks he would be out of bronze in no time. But luckily there is.
Does harassment (beyond just attacking with a single worker) even exist in bronze? I don't think it does really.
What I'm seeing a bit of in this thread is what Gheed realized in his last blog: Bronze players don't understand how completely terrible they are. He goes over several reasons for this (some might not know its the bottom league, some don't care about the larger community, etc.) but his game with his bronze league friend basically sums it up. They don't fully grasp how absolutely god-fucking awful they are at every single last aspect of the game. It isn't that your "macro is ok, you just need to X." NO. This is the problem. You can't really improve in what you need to (EVERYTHING) if you think anything you do is ok. I'm a master league player and I still think most of my mechanics are dogshit (they are decent in my best games). If this is the case for me, you have to realize how completely terrible you are at EVERYTHING before you can begin to improve.
On March 12 2012 08:53 Micket wrote: Bronze players who think they can macro are deluding themselves. You can beat bronzies by making any units at random timings with no overall strategy. Those who are saying 'bronze/silver Players are much better now' are also deluding themselves. If you can't max out as Terran in 15 minutes vs the easy computer, your macro sucks. If you can't remember to make workers, you suck. I sometimes play a few monobattles for fun, and it is really funny when I see my bronze/silver teammates have 40 workers created for the whole game. That's less than 2 base saturation. Don't ever use the word expand, timing, map control, positioning or composition if you can't even make workers.
You haven't read a single other post have you?
Yes, I have. Most of them are you saying you macro fine and are decent but bronze players are actually good enough to beat that. Mate, you need to work on your macro, its not good enough. Try making stalker colossus off 2 base (1 robo), until 140 supply and a move across the map. Should be very easy win. Also, 50 probes by 14 minutes is Awful. The fact you thought that was somewhat ok is pretty telling in it's own right. A Protoss warp gate timing, usually runs off full 2 base saturation which is around 46 probes and those arrive at around 9:30. That's with cut probes btw. Work on your macro and you will leave bronze league. Stop telling yourself otherwise.
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Based on my experiences every day in the bronze league, you exhibit the very same symptoms I have described. You are either trolling or so far in denial that you can't see the irony of this thread compared to my experiences. You are doing exactly what I have shown bronze players doing: refusing to accept responsibility for their actions and blaming others for their failures.
You are not in bronze because bronze players have "improved." You are not in bronze because of higher league players smurfing. You are not in bronze because people cheese you. You are in bronze because you are bad. Full stop. Period. End of story.
Until you accept this, until you admit to yourself that you are bad and work to improve that, you will always be bronze.
Let's take a look at your reddit post.
To be clear, I'm not terrible.
False, you are provably terrible. You are in the lowest league possible. By the only metric available to us, your rank, you are terrible.
I know my openings, my moneys always low,
If your money is low in bronze, it's either because you a., don't have enough workers, b., just queued up a ton of stuff, c., built way too much infrastructure, or d., are sitting there on one base focusing entirely on macro while forgetting to scout or do anything else. If you actually macroed well, you would not be in bronze.
I know the other races' opening and scout them, blah blah.
Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
I even get matched with silver and gold players and beat them - assuming they aren't zerg
Silver and gold players are bad, too. And if you truly were reliably beating silver or gold players, then you would be in silver or gold. You aren't, so you are in bronze. This is how the ladder works. Bronze is not an accident.
I can upload them [the replays] tonight sure. But I would rather you didn't get back to me on them, this is not what I wanted this thread to be.
So far as I can tell, you never uploaded anything. You are either trolling or so afraid that someone will find fault in your games and shatter your illusion of competency that you refuse to post them. You've basically circumvented the TL strategy forum guidelines by posting a whine thread about how bad you are in the SC2 general forum, instead.
Edit: If you are a bronze league in my camp, just PM me. lol There is no place for us here.
Imagine if you had made a thread entitled "I don't know how to add or subtract, anybody else like me?" Would you expect people to be thrilled that you were wantonly ignorant and somehow proud of it? No, they would try to help you. The only reason you're getting any attention at all is because people on TL are too nice for their own good sometimes.
As someone on reddit said, you "just wanted this to be a circlejerk of people who think they're better then they are," and don't honestly want to improve, which is antithetical to everything most people on TL believe in.
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
I think its perfectly fine if you want to just enjoy the bronze league. I too don't understand this attitude that you *have* to enjoy this game in a particular way, i.e. by progressing up the ladder like everyone else, especially in the sense of verbally attacking a person because they don't enjoy the same things they do. That's really extreme behaviour, and I wouldn't take it seriously.
If you enjoy playing with a macro/micro level that you're happy with there's nothing wrong with that. Also I think its really cool that you are a physics major! I'm going into the same field . I think it would be good fun to join some bronze only tournaments, I think there are a few. Some are even televised, and make for really good entertainment (sorry lol). But I'm sure the players could care less how others view them, as long as you enjoy the game. Elitism isn't going to help SC2 grow as an e-sport
On March 12 2012 07:29 Adamgm wrote: The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
Gheed wouldn't ever get to a lengthy macro game.
Of course, most players in gold and up wouldn't get to a lengthy macro game either vs. those same opponents. That such a game takes place in bronze league is more a sign of good matchmaking than anything else -- two players who play equally slowly may play a macro game against each other, but in three times the wall-clock time.
When the game first came out, I spent the first few months in gold league. As people dropped off, I fell into bronze where I have been ever since. This is evidence to the theory that many have, that the leagues have changed with the number of people playing.
However, for the majority of what you said, - Yep, I agree. I know I'm bad! The point of my reddit post was that I am having fun again thanks to this realization I even had other people PM me that this particular mindset has helped them have some more fun as well.
Finally, if there was a league of people who couldn't add and subtract as some kind of competition and have a lot of fun doing it, than that would be remotely evident. Sorry though, that's hardly relevant.
I still cannot comprehend how people can be "hardcore" and be in bronze league. OP posted multiple times in this thread defending his macro and being proud of 50 probes in 15 minutes....
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
You may feel you're doing the bronze league folks a service by saying this kind of thing, but the truth is that it pretty much just comes off as derisive of people who don't have the talent or insight that you do.
As an example, you go on in your blog at length about people not realizing that the way to beat your strategy is to a-move and click on the ground. My question is, how do people ever learn to do that unless (a) they're told, or (b) they discover it by accident? It's certainly not inherently obvious to someone who's never played the game that it would do anything significantly different than a-moving onto a unit, or right-clicking.
I've certainly read your blog and been amused by it, but you just wind up coming off as someone who's trying to stroke his own ego at other people's expense.
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
You may feel you're doing the bronze league folks a service by saying this kind of thing, but the truth is that it pretty much just comes off as derisive of people who don't have the talent or insight that you do.
As an example, you go on in your blog at length about people not realizing that the way to beat your strategy is to a-move and click on the ground. My question is, how do people ever learn to do that unless (a) they're told, or (b) they discover it by accident? It's certainly not inherently obvious to someone who's never played the game that it would do anything significantly different than a-moving onto a unit, or right-clicking.
I've certainly read your blog and been amused by it, but you just wind up coming off as someone who's trying to stroke his own ego at other people's expense.
He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am.
On March 12 2012 09:35 radscorpion9 wrote: I think its perfectly fine if you want to just enjoy the bronze league. I too don't understand this attitude that you *have* to enjoy this game in a particular way, i.e. by progressing up the ladder like everyone else, especially in the sense of verbally attacking a person because they don't enjoy the same things they do. That's really extreme behaviour, and I wouldn't take it seriously.
Then for what kind of sick, perverted reason would one play a highly competitive game and choose not to progress?
On March 12 2012 09:50 Micket wrote: He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am.
From the blogs I've read, he tells people how to beat it only if they ask after the game. If I'm wrong on that, please point it out to me.
I was bronze when i first got the game in beta and then I pretty much won every game after a friend of mine showed me in general what I needed to do and shot up to the top league available and even now that I barely play 5 games a week I'm still in the upper end of masters and I got into the top 300 in NA at one point when I could play like 20 games a day. Oh and this was on a 2 core PC that would lag like crazy after about 100 pop was reached. So micro was pretty much non existent until I got this new PC.
No streams, No practice partners, No time spent watching replays really, No nothing other than playing and working on what I knew was holding me back.
I honestly can't comprehend how people can be as bad as they are at games.
If you Honestly Play 2 hours of SC2 and watch streams and your still stuck in Bronze your either 1 handed or something is seriously seriously seriously seriously wrong with how you play.
And If your in bronze and you genuinely want to improve hit me up if your a T and ill do my best to help you
On March 12 2012 09:44 biology]major wrote: I still cannot comprehend how people can be "hardcore" and be in bronze league. OP posted multiple times in this thread defending his macro and being proud of 50 probes in 15 minutes....
delusions are out of this world with this one
I don't know about the OP but when I play 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 with my bronze buddy he more often than not outproduces diamond players when it comes to workers. But then he manages to die to something like 3 reapers in his base 20 minutes into the game.
Generally speaking bronzies obviously have horrible macro, and their definition of good macro the same, but there are shades of gray. Every bronze player is not the same and their problems can differ.
On March 12 2012 09:50 Micket wrote: He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am.
From the blogs I've read, he tells people how to beat it only if they ask after the game. If I'm wrong on that, please point it out to me.
You are wrong on that Also, what is the difference between accepting that you are bad in diamond league and having fun with the game versus accepting that you are bad in bronze league and having fun, as OP suggests? You can still enjoy yourself and have no goals or ambitions with progression, except you won't be so neurotic and defensive about being ostracized. The point Gheed is making is not that you should accept your lack of skill, it is that you shouldn't post threads on how you minimize cognitive dissonance about your lack of skill and expect some celebration of it from more than 20% of the respondents in a generally competitive community. From your "there is no place for us here" reaction, I'm just not sure what OP expected.
On March 12 2012 09:50 Micket wrote: He tells people before the match that he is going to worker rush them and he also tells them exactly how to beat it. These are bronzes that have played hundreds of 1v1 games on ladder. He is as bemused as I am.
From the blogs I've read, he tells people how to beat it only if they ask after the game. If I'm wrong on that, please point it out to me.
If he's still doing it, why did LuckMachine have to ask him how to beat it in his most recent blog?
On March 12 2012 10:09 AGsc wrote: The point Gheed is making is not that you should accept your lack of skill, it is that you shouldn't post threads on how you minimize cognitive dissonance about your lack of skill and expect some celebration of it from more than 20% of the respondents in a generally competitive community.
Sure, that may well be his point. My point is that what he does and says comes off as derisive of people who aren't as good as he is. Also, I don't think he's still telling people in advance how to beat worker rushes, otherwise he wouldn't encounter people who ask.
Firstly, to those who say the leagues aren't getting harder: I am a mid platinum zerg. I had a friend who played during the first few months after release, and was in mid/high diamond. He didn't play for about a year, but then he came back, and was almost immediately demoted to platinum. A few months later, after he had played a few more games, I saw that he was online and decided to play him. (I was high gold at this point.) It felt incredibly easy. Everything he did was completely stupid, and I deflected it without incident.
I have another friend who is currently in platinum, but hasn't played much recently--he was probably promoted to plat about 9 months ago, so his skill level is basically platinum from then. He is significantly worse than 95% of the people I have played recently on ladder.
More relevantly to the thread, my brother is in bronze and you seem sort of like him in a way. He will go into a game being like "ok so I'm going to do a forge fe into a 6 gate blink stalker timing". He then will proceed to make his nexus on about 22, get gas incredibly late, build probes about half the time, always get supply blocked, not make anything out of his gateways, forget to turn them into warpgates, not warp stuff in out of his warpgates, and then aggravate all these problems when he finally does this push as he proceeds to obsessively blink back injured stalkers like he saw on pro streams.
If you just want to have fun in bronze, then that's also fine.
On March 12 2012 09:35 radscorpion9 wrote: I think its perfectly fine if you want to just enjoy the bronze league. I too don't understand this attitude that you *have* to enjoy this game in a particular way, i.e. by progressing up the ladder like everyone else, especially in the sense of verbally attacking a person because they don't enjoy the same things they do. That's really extreme behaviour, and I wouldn't take it seriously.
Then for what kind of sick, perverted reason would one play a highly competitive game and choose not to progress?
Getting better at SC2 requires seeking out information and structuring practice to deal with things that are problems, not just playing a lot. I can certainly see someone say "hey, I just want to play a lot of games and I don't want to do all that other stuff." Such a person may well wind up in bronze for a very long time.
So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
There is nothing wrong with being in bronze, but if you are there is really no reason to watch day9/review games/any sort of structured practice. These kind of things will have absolutely 0 return in your game until you can macro at a gold/platinum level. That's why people are responding in a manner that might be seen as rude. The fact that he watches day9/streams/replays implies that he wants to get better, and the way he is going about it he never will. If he doesn't care, why watch replays?
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
MMA vs MVP 15mn ~126psi these players are utter joke aren't they~~~
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
On March 12 2012 03:01 lazyitachi wrote: This thread does not compute.. Bronze players in general: - Do not constantly produce workers... they usually only have 20 in 10 min and MAYBE 50 in a long game - overmake/ undermake production facility - think MICRO > MACRO - think STRATEGY > base management
Bronze players should instead: - keep in check unspent resources - monitor worker production - know supportable production based on how many base/ gas taken - improve your max out time
Bronze players who think they have good macro please post replay.
So, if I don't think these things...then what?
I went and looked at 2 random games. I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both.
Either:
1. You're lying, which I feel like is counter productive to everyone in this thread.
or
2. You're building pure Nexuses and no units and dying to 15 minute 4gates or something. Because if you are able to pump 50 workers by 14 minutes you should not be in bronze league.
Well, I'm no liar My whole point is that I know I'm a bronze level player, there's no point in lying that you are among the lowest level of players in the game lol.
I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
By 15 minute mark, you should be maxed. 100 food at 15 minute is a joke.
Post your games pls... Doubt your games are epic/ attack heavy/ multitask heavy.
All the talks and non of the replays sounds like a good way for this thread to progress.
I'll post some when I get back from work. Of course it's not high level play and it is littered with errors, but it's, for the least, quite far from what Mr. Gheed chose to show people. I currently play at high silver low gold level. Basically players must consistently beat me to be able to leave the silver league.
On March 12 2012 11:18 zefreak wrote: There is nothing wrong with being in bronze, but if you are there is really no reason to watch day9/review games/any sort of structured practice. These kind of things will have absolutely 0 return in your game until you can macro at a gold/platinum level.
If someone's in bronze and hasn't been progressing, structured practice is exactly how to learn to macro at a gold/plat level. Specifically, going into a 1v1 custom with no opponent and practicing how fast to max out. It will help.
On March 12 2012 11:18 zefreak wrote: There is nothing wrong with being in bronze, but if you are there is really no reason to watch day9/review games/any sort of structured practice. These kind of things will have absolutely 0 return in your game until you can macro at a gold/platinum level.
If someone's in bronze and hasn't been progressing, structured practice is exactly how to learn to macro at a gold/plat level. Specifically, going into a 1v1 custom with no opponent and practicing how fast to max out. It will help.
Right, I included structured practice when I shouldn't have. What I basically meant is that day9, pro streams, reviewing games etc are not going to help when you are still playing at a bronze level. If you can't beat bronze or silver players, then you aren't going to learn anything via those tools that is currently important. Basic macro is all that matters at that point and you won't learn that except by finding a safe, economic opening and only focus on production and expanding, maxing out on stalkers/marine marauder/roach ling and ignoring all the bells and whistles.
I think it's worth mentioning that the bronze players that Gheed focuses on are the very bottom of the barrel.
The skill discrepancy from low bronze to high bronze is noticeable; high bronze can be indistinguishable from silver, whereas you can always tell low bronze. The lowest of bronze will literally sit and not macro. They can float 5k mins without ever going back under 5k, and the concept of multitask or even basic macro is utterly foreign to them. I've always imagined low bronze to be very young children or people literally playing their first games of sc2 after never having seen it done before or played another RTS.
These are the kinds of people Gheed can beat realiably with a worker rush - indeed, they lose to anything which even resembles a commonly used strat. Also, yes, he's going to cherrypick the best (and by best, I mean worst) games to talk about.
To be honest, I don't think there is anything wrong being bronze. If you like to enjoy the game at ur own pace.. cool. If you want to just dick around and have fun... cool.
If you however open a thread and tell ppl how pro bronzies are at macroing when even the pros don't macro perfectly, don't be surprised to be met with ridicule and derision.
On March 12 2012 12:03 lazyitachi wrote: [...] If you however open a thread and tell ppl how pro bronzies are at macroing when even the pros don't macro perfectly, don't be surprised to be met with ridicule and derision. [...]
Please, quote where in the OP you could read that. You are "ridiculing" people out of your own made up arguments for your own (ego-stroking?) pleasure.
To ease the process let me copy the OP for you.
====
Greetings all,
I recently wrote a thread on reddit looking for fellow bronze level players who have come to accept just that - that they are bronze level players.
I got slammed pretty hard by almost everyone, except for a few who seemed glad I was having more fun enjoying my league instead of getting angry about not progressing.
Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
The secondary for writing this is that I spent a long time rather frustrated that I was still in bronze, and I wasn't enjoying myself. Perhaps someone else is in this situation... a switch to being OK with your level of play might do what it did for me, and bring more enjoyment to your play time!
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Based on my experiences every day in the bronze league, you exhibit the very same symptoms I have described. You are either trolling or so far in denial that you can't see the irony of this thread compared to my experiences. You are doing exactly what I have shown bronze players doing: refusing to accept responsibility for their actions and blaming others for their failures.
You are not in bronze because bronze players have "improved." You are not in bronze because of higher league players smurfing. You are not in bronze because people cheese you. You are in bronze because you are bad. Full stop. Period. End of story.
Until you accept this, until you admit to yourself that you are bad and work to improve that, you will always be bronze.
If your money is low in bronze, it's either because you a., don't have enough workers, b., just queued up a ton of stuff, c., built way too much infrastructure, or d., are sitting there on one base focusing entirely on macro while forgetting to scout or do anything else. If you actually macroed well, you would not be in bronze.
I even get matched with silver and gold players and beat them - assuming they aren't zerg
Silver and gold players are bad, too. And if you truly were reliably beating silver or gold players, then you would be in silver or gold. You aren't, so you are in bronze. This is how the ladder works. Bronze is not an accident.
I can upload them [the replays] tonight sure. But I would rather you didn't get back to me on them, this is not what I wanted this thread to be.
So far as I can tell, you never uploaded anything. You are either trolling or so afraid that someone will find fault in your games and shatter your illusion of competency that you refuse to post them. You've basically circumvented the TL strategy forum guidelines by posting a whine thread about how bad you are in the SC2 general forum, instead.
Edit: If you are a bronze league in my camp, just PM me. lol There is no place for us here.
Imagine if you had made a thread entitled "I don't know how to add or subtract, anybody else like me?" Would you expect people to be thrilled that you were wantonly ignorant and somehow proud of it? No, they would try to help you. The only reason you're getting any attention at all is because people on TL are too nice for their own good sometimes.
As someone on reddit said, you "just wanted this to be a circlejerk of people who think they're better then they are," and don't honestly want to improve, which is antithetical to everything most people on TL believe in.
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
It was a pleasure reading this post! Almost as good as your blogs And I agree!
The Gheed post has come up quite a few times. Considering we have multiple bronze players here talking about lengthy macro games, maybe it's possible that Gheed only picked the bad games? It seems to me that he went with the intent of writing an article that bronze league was nothing but drooling idiots spamming a-move.
The Gheed post proved that -bronze people on average don't know the standard response to a worker rush(A-moving your own workers), and that silver+ generally do Not much else. If I'd never read teamliquid, I wouldn't know the response to a worker rush either, because I have literally seen it once it 200 or so silver/gold games.
Based on my experiences every day in bronze league, Gheed has sensationalized his article. It doesn't "prove" anything when you can pick and choose what games are previewed.
Based on my experiences every day in the bronze league, you exhibit the very same symptoms I have described. You are either trolling or so far in denial that you can't see the irony of this thread compared to my experiences. You are doing exactly what I have shown bronze players doing: refusing to accept responsibility for their actions and blaming others for their failures.
You are not in bronze because bronze players have "improved." You are not in bronze because of higher league players smurfing. You are not in bronze because people cheese you. You are in bronze because you are bad. Full stop. Period. End of story.
Until you accept this, until you admit to yourself that you are bad and work to improve that, you will always be bronze.
If your money is low in bronze, it's either because you a., don't have enough workers, b., just queued up a ton of stuff, c., built way too much infrastructure, or d., are sitting there on one base focusing entirely on macro while forgetting to scout or do anything else. If you actually macroed well, you would not be in bronze.
I even get matched with silver and gold players and beat them - assuming they aren't zerg
Silver and gold players are bad, too. And if you truly were reliably beating silver or gold players, then you would be in silver or gold. You aren't, so you are in bronze. This is how the ladder works. Bronze is not an accident.
I can upload them [the replays] tonight sure. But I would rather you didn't get back to me on them, this is not what I wanted this thread to be.
So far as I can tell, you never uploaded anything. You are either trolling or so afraid that someone will find fault in your games and shatter your illusion of competency that you refuse to post them. You've basically circumvented the TL strategy forum guidelines by posting a whine thread about how bad you are in the SC2 general forum, instead.
Edit: If you are a bronze league in my camp, just PM me. lol There is no place for us here.
Imagine if you had made a thread entitled "I don't know how to add or subtract, anybody else like me?" Would you expect people to be thrilled that you were wantonly ignorant and somehow proud of it? No, they would try to help you. The only reason you're getting any attention at all is because people on TL are too nice for their own good sometimes.
As someone on reddit said, you "just wanted this to be a circlejerk of people who think they're better then they are," and don't honestly want to improve, which is antithetical to everything most people on TL believe in.
You are not a victim of anything else but your terrible, self-defeating mindset. There are 12-year-olds in master league. There are quadriplegics in diamond league. There is no excuse for being bronze as it exists now other than complete and utter ignorance, which ceases to be an excuse when you find yourself posting on TL or reddit.
Excellent post. I wanted to say most of those things in my post but couldn't bring myself to be so blunt. Look, this is how it is. If you don't know you're bad you won't get better. I remember when I started playing BW more competitively. I jumped in long after ICCUP was created and I got smashed badly every game for literally over 100 games. I had to accept I was terrible compared to the people I was playing against, but that's alright! Just be patient and honest with yourself and you can certainly improve. This is not at all me saying that I'm good. Really, 100s of games at least I got smashed over and over. But in the long run you do reap the benefits of playing and doing your best to learn.
ive always been in the highest league (not counting grandmaster) possible since i got the game in late beta and i dont get how you can actually play each day and still joke around in bronze.
i mean i got those friend that are sooo horrible. they dont get a single timing and their macro is like non-existent, but even they reached silver.
but i guess its okay if its fun for you as thats the reason you bought this game.
The notion that "basic macro" gets you out of bronze is laughable. It might have been true a year or two ago, when there were noobs still flocking into this game. I'm currently in gold and I see no readily noticeable difference in my gameplay, compared to the time I was in high bronze nor do I see significant difference in the gameplay of my opponents. They're better for certain, but the differences are more subtle, because they're doing the exact same things the bronzies did, except they somehow do them better. I certainly didn't get out of bronze because I've learned to "make drones and spend minerals". I got into silver because I subconciously refined my gameplay, by playing more.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
in 4v4 whenever i face a plat or below person, they never get upgrades past 1/1 and i proceed to faceroll 2-3 of them with 3/3/3 stalker 20 mins in
On March 12 2012 13:29 TacticalBadger wrote: The notion that "basic macro" gets you out of bronze is laughable. It might have been true a year or two ago, when there were noobs still flocking into this game. I'm currently in gold and I see no readily noticeable difference in my gameplay, compared to the time I was in high bronze nor do I see significant difference in the gameplay of my opponents. They're better for certain, but the differences are more subtle, because they're doing the exact same things the bronzies did, except they somehow do them better. I certainly didn't get out of bronze because I've learned to "make drones and spend minerals". I got into silver because I subconciously refined my gameplay, by playing more.
Really? Because I just got into gold with basic macro, and this was about 2 weeks ago. Bronze is just as bad as it used to be, and silver is pretty bad too..
Ridiculous troll post. Not troll post, per say, but rather troll responses.
Lets look at the "facts" -my money is pretty low until I hit 3 bases -Well, I spent a good year playing pretty hardcore, with guidance from diamond players (mostly) -In most of my games I get to 3 base (as protoss) - I hit 50 probes before 14 minutes in both(games) -I looked at those same 2 games and I had 6 gates in both with a double robo (I know a lot of people don't like that, but I do - for skyrocketing the collosus numbers). Supply was around 100-120 but some battles had already happened.
I'm coaching a player who makes 40-50 workers a game, rarely takes a 3rd base, and almost always floats 1k minerals sometime before the 12:00 mark. He almost never has enough production facilities, max queing on barracks multiple times a game... He's in silver.
Something's obviously not right, and the fact that you refuse to post a rep makes you look like a horrific liar, or someone who's too stubborn to admit they don't play good games consistently.
I'm completely convinced any player can make it high diamond/masters if they want to improve badly enough. Its painful and requires a huge amount of repetition and learning... But its doable.
If anyone wants help or anything from a low master newb you can PM me.... I love helping players.
On March 12 2012 10:29 freakhill wrote: So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
How laughable that you think that Bronze League has anything to do with E-sports.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
freakhill, when you play a game are you trying to win? I'll assume that you are, indeed, trying to win... So why would you not try to get better at the game? I don't play very much at all, but still platinum as random and I know that I'm shit. If people in bronze league think they are doing fine at any aspect of the game then they are doing themselves a huge disservice. Lying to yourself is the worst kinda of lie. If you have no aspiration at improving at SC2 (which is what the majority of people on TL try to do, and also the reason this thread is met so harshly) then why play? I for one, don't find it fun to lose.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
So funny that this thread has come about. I'm part of a Starcraft parody musical group called 'Viva La Dirt League' we made this song:
And more songs. However our next song is based on Michael Jacksons 'They don't care about us'. Which is about being bronze league and feeling small lol. It's called 'They don't care about bronze'. We've recorded the song and are filming the music video this weekend.
If you wanna hear a song from people who hear your plight then subscribe. It will be up in a couple of weeks.
TBH, this whole topic is why I am no longer a Day9 fan. He provides content for low level players. He isn't interested in providing high-quality in-depth analysis of a game or a MU like I see Artosis doing. He wants to drag the lower leagues up by their bootstraps and leaves the smaller part of the community, but the more active part, high and dry.
To be clear, I respect the guy and what he does, as well as the obvious effectiveness in terms of capitalization of his moniker. However, the mentality that low league is OK and you can get better with this one build you saw on a newbie tuesday is simply bad and false. The builds shown aren't amazing, are generally poor examples of actually good play, and generally showcase a novelty rather than solid, standard play.
Back on topic, however, the shameless self plug above is notable, as it is funny. I must retain my view on the OP's mentality as a bad one.
On March 11 2012 21:56 ArkanTos wrote: I started 2 years ago, was placed in silver. I still only play 1-2 hours a day, but the difference ist, im master league now, i daily watch streams, playing 5-8 games every day. What i'm saying is, you CANT be to slow for higher leagues than bronze, it is so .
But playing every day 10 games without thinking about it, won't help you to become better, play less games but think about it, and you will recognice you're improvement.
PS: Sry my english isn't the best^^.
Well said, your english is fine, watching streams is important, better from the players perspective than general sc2 events, the key is intensity (keep minerals down, always be occupied) and knowing the bare basics (when to expand, number of workers on mineral line), build orders are easy after that.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
This is why people are degrading to you.
In my opinion, you deserve it, as you said you are happy with your spot in bronze. you can improve if you want to, and you are choosing to not.
(Adressed to OP)
Well, not everyone is degrading The original intent of this, as was the post on reddit, was to get a hold of players like myself to play some games, and I have quite a few now; as well as some channels I wasn't aware of.
I agree to an extent. I'm sure if I gave up many other things I could refine and improve enough to move up, however I've spent approximately a year with mentors, taking notes, watching replays, following pros, etc. and I am where I am. (Edit: Before more people say "MACRO!", that is always something I am always working on. I usually watch a replay once just for probe production and money.) I can play around 2 hours a day, and that will get me to top of my bronze league, and I'm having a lot of fun in it.
If you're stuck in bronze you're lacking game knowledge probably. If you play that much there's no way your mechanics aren't good enough for at least plat. I know this because I can beat mid plat players with just the mouse. Just use one safe build and try to learn the game more and more by watching replays.
On March 12 2012 10:29 freakhill wrote: So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
How laughable that you think that Bronze League has anything to do with E-sports.
business wise esport is about pairs of eyes and hands/pockets. Without eyes and money all you have is a hobby. And "masters" pairs of eyes have no more value than bronzie pairs of eyes. Moreover activity-wise the scene is fed by the bottom. New players start in bronze, you could consider the bronze league as the roots of the esport tree. New people picked up BW in korea and the scene is still alive. It didn't happen in the rest of the world where it slowly died. I hope you realize that one day.
freakhill, when you play a game are you trying to win? I'll assume that you are, indeed, trying to win... So why would you not try to get better at the game? I don't play very much at all, but still platinum as random and I know that I'm shit. If people in bronze league think they are doing fine at any aspect of the game then they are doing themselves a huge disservice. Lying to yourself is the worst kinda of lie. If you have no aspiration at improving at SC2 (which is what the majority of people on TL try to do, and also the reason this thread is met so harshly) then why play? I for one, don't find it fun to lose.
Many bronze players do a lot better than many masters at the most important aspect of the game, having fun. Moreover bronze players do not actually lose more than you do. They lose actually as much as you do, that is around 50% of their matches. People that do not lose are either pros, cheaters, or the despicable kind of people that tank their mmr to stomp on weak players and mock them. I play to have fun, not to get better. I might incidentally get better because I have interest in SC2 things but this is quite far from my objectives.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
The thing is, unless you're at the top of the ladder (top GM) getting better will NOT lead to you winning more. So trying to improve will not lead to you having more fun. IMO, if you're having fun keep doing what you are doing... It's a game. + Show Spoiler +
Obviously, some people find it fun to get better and track their progress. I know I'll probably never hit GM, but I'm still trying to get better because I find progress fun.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
I toward find your attitude about pointless programming very complacent. This is always bad and thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is. It's not possible to use a computer without being proficient in pointless programming. I will send you this link so that you can get basic instruction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming
But seriously, who are you to define what is fun for other people. Why should we care about your personally approved and certified form of fun?
EDIT: Btw the *winning more* part doesn't hold and is addressed by me precedent post and the post just above this one (that you are reading now).
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
The last thing this thread needs is more blatant generalisations.
Even Gheed has admitted that the term "high bronze" has real meaning, since that league has such a big skill range. Obviously someone in bronze is bad at *something*, or they wouldn't be in bronze. Some might even be bad at *everything*. But they're not *all* bad at everything, and there's bound to be some that have macro a few leagues ahead, but keep walking the fruits of their production into siegetank lines. Or losing multitudes of their diligently constructed SCVs to a single reaper or banshee that they only reacted to after 20 seconds.
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
The last thing this thread needs is more blatant generalisations.
Even Gheed has admitted that the term "high bronze" has real meaning, since that league has such a big skill range. Obviously someone in bronze is bad at *something*, or they wouldn't be in bronze. Some might even be bad at *everything*. But they're not *all* bad at everything, and there's bound to be some that have macro a few leagues ahead, but keep walking the fruits of their production into siegetank lines. Or losing multitudes of their diligently constructed SCVs to a single reaper or banshee that they only reacted to after 20 seconds.
This. Players in silver league are actually very good in EU now. I faced zergs that have around 100 average apm and creep spread most of the map at 15 minute mark while harassing with muta and doing all sorts of awesome macro games and expanding. I've seen bronze players that are better than gold. Maybe just recently players have become so good in the lower leagues since SC2 is losing its popularity? Competition is much better than it was year ago.
The fun of the game for me is trying to get better and progress in leagues. While I was climbing the ladder in the beggining I just wanted to get to higher leagues so I can play standard players and not worry so much about cheese. When I was around gold I was only doing the 7 roach rush and was winning pretty much all my games vs terran and protoss, after I got out of gold I started losing with my 7 roach rush, so I just had to learn to play. Now happily playing in master and trying to get to grandmaster.
What I would suggest is that you learn one of these builds: for terran 2 rax expo or 3-4 rax all in, for protoss 4 gate and for zerg either 7 roach rush or 1 base baneling bust, this will get you used to following a build and if you can execute it properly and learn to micro a bit better you will be in plat in no time.
On March 12 2012 21:08 freakhill wrote: ok took a replay from my stash of recent games http://drop.sc/130090
terran scouts at 7 supply terran used supplycalldown on every single depot terran makes a 3rax allin push with 4rax that is like 4 minutes to late. (or he should have way more supply) not building anything while attacking, if he has overmins he just builds way more production buildings than he can support.
zerg stays at 27 drones untill minute 15 than makes like 60 drones at once zerg gets supplyblocked makes like 3 overlords gets supply blocked makes 3 overlords repeat zerg isn't able to rally his stuff properly, zerg wants to attack vs a 1 basing terran(poor game knowledge)
was watching it x8 for the most part.
there is lots of stuff that indicates that this is a game on a very low level, bronze or silver or possibly gold(z) vs silver(t) or something.
If you're stuck in bronze and you're a ladder warrior, chances are that you are just playing blindly without learning anything. I know this for a fact because I've taught many bronze terrans and zergs and when they play, they just do everything blindly without thinking, I have no idea whats going on in their mind and to be honest, it actually makes my head hurt to teach a bronze player, because their thought process while they are playing is so strange and unorthodox. Not saying that unorthodox play isn't bad, its just bad when you are getting a depot at 9 and a barracks at 13, usually.
The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I played almost no WC3 or SC:BW ladder at all. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
It's not necessarily a result of not understanding the game, although thats definitely part of it. Basic mechanics take a lot of practice and memorization. My friends only want pro games, they don't play at all, and they have watched every season of gsl since open season 3. True, their understanding of the game isn't deep enough in certain aspects, but the big reason they wouldn't be able to just start winning games if they play is not due to their strategic knowledge but because of their lack of practice regarding mechanics.
I really like what someone said earlier in this thread. Starcraft doesn't become a strategy game until you reach a certain level of competency (gold maybe?). Until that point its all memorization and execution.
On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
The last thing this thread needs is more blatant generalisations.
Even Gheed has admitted that the term "high bronze" has real meaning, since that league has such a big skill range. Obviously someone in bronze is bad at *something*, or they wouldn't be in bronze. Some might even be bad at *everything*. But they're not *all* bad at everything, and there's bound to be some that have macro a few leagues ahead, but keep walking the fruits of their production into siegetank lines. Or losing multitudes of their diligently constructed SCVs to a single reaper or banshee that they only reacted to after 20 seconds.
This. Players in silver league are actually very good in EU now. I faced zergs that have around 100 average apm and creep spread most of the map at 15 minute mark while harassing with muta and doing all sorts of awesome macro games and expanding. I've seen bronze players that are better than gold. Maybe just recently players have become so good in the lower leagues since SC2 is losing its popularity? Competition is much better than it was year ago.
You probably met someone who was leveling up in Season 5.
Bronze/silver/gold is terrible. I've played them last week learning Zerg and i should know.
Back in Season 1 i was top Diamond, which might appear flashy but it's downright depressing when you get to play against Masters. The same difference in skill i felt back then, i now feel also in lower leagues (not that diamond was high in the first place). And that's struggling with Zerg playstyle; switched to terran 3 times for good old times and rocked them so hard i felt guilt.
On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
Care to post a replay or two? 40-60 APM seems awfully low to get much done on anything over 1 base. And yes, if you got into Masters with an hour a week of gameplay, you've got some "natural" talent that was either there from the beginning, or that you developed through some other activity when you were younger.
On March 12 2012 10:29 freakhill wrote: So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers...
How laughable that you think that Bronze League has anything to do with E-sports.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
freakhill, when you play a game are you trying to win? I'll assume that you are, indeed, trying to win... So why would you not try to get better at the game? I don't play very much at all, but still platinum as random and I know that I'm shit. If people in bronze league think they are doing fine at any aspect of the game then they are doing themselves a huge disservice. Lying to yourself is the worst kinda of lie. If you have no aspiration at improving at SC2 (which is what the majority of people on TL try to do, and also the reason this thread is met so harshly) then why play? I for one, don't find it fun to lose.
you have it all wrong. noone said he didnt like winning. but this isnt a pug cs server or Modern warfare where if u get better u will do better. in SC ladder it doesn't matter how much he practices, he will lose half his games. period. no offence but i doubt he will be so pro to not be 50% on ladder. so he can still play, have a blast, win half his games, and never attempt to improve. hell he can even get worse at the game, but maintain a 50% w/l. but he dont get pissy from spending all night studing a build and go 1-5 with it on ladder and trash it. like you more than likely have.
On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
40-60 only? I average around 80 with terran with casual play and 90-100 with zerg that is without spamming. I haven't played much SC2 and I'm in gold. Most of my opponents that are silver or gold have same kind of apm as I do. Less than one action per second sounds very low to me. In Wc3 I averaged around 120-150 apm and went 24/0 in solo when TFT was around.
I just can't believe you are in masters with 40 apm.
You can be in masters with low apm. You can be a progamer with around 100 (Sjow, GoOdY). Quantity < Quality.
As for the whole being bronze thing, I cannot relate. I've been playing video games since I was 12 (20 now) and I've reached the front page of leader-boards, been to lans and tournaments, fps and rts alike.
The thing that baffles me about all these bronze level players that claim to have an understanding of the game and are still bronze is how they can put so much effort into complaining and whining without putting any effort into their play. Us GM players aren't somehow demi-gods with beastly rts skills... we're people too that are basically the same as you. Well, also the same. Our (at least my) process anyways is far different than yours when it comes to playing Starcraft.
Let me give you an example. When I wanted to switch to Terran from Protoss, I was a little nervous. Having never played Terran, being terrible at Marine micro, and having low-mid GM MMR, I was worried about jumping right in and queuing up as T.
So here is what I did, and everyone can do this to make it to GM, it's not about being smart or having deep insight into your opponents, it's about mechanics. If you have better mechanics than your opponents, you will win more often than not. Hands down.
1 - Learned the hotkeys, I remember most of them from the campaign. Always use hotkeys and control groups. 2 - Picked two players I liked and streamed a lot (I picked vileillusion and forGG). 3 - Copy their builds to the supply. Pick builds that don't rely a lot on metagaming, guessing, or scouting. Just standard builds. For each match-up start with 1 solid build. For this example we'll use ThorzaiN's mass marine opening that was featured on Day9, that's my TvT build. 4 - Play matches. This is the easy part. Imaging the build order as a ladder, you're trying to climb up it as fast as possible. It's been said that this is why Korean pros are just better than foreigners. They have their whole build and game planned out. Up into the hundreds of supply. Just keep playing matches, win/lose/draw jut keep playing and desensitize yourself to results. Disclaimer, you're going to lose a lot. Deal with it. 5 - Refine your build, the SAME build. A standard build like the mass marine combat shield is not going to change a whole lot. I don't even scout with it until I push out at my 4th medivac. I don't get supply blocked, I don't lose a lot of units/works. I don't usually die to cheese. I've played the build dozens and dozens and dozens of times. I have the timings worked out, and most of the time I kill my opponent with the first push. It's not an all-in, it's not a cheese. It's 3 medivacs in the front, 1 in the back, with +1, stim, combat shield, tanks + a third on the way. Why does it work so well? I just have more stuff than the other guy most of the time. I watch the replay and notice how inefficient their build is. I wasn't smarter or more clever/tricky than they were. I just had better mechanics. Mechanics win games. I can't tell you how many times I pause the replay right before the attack and see myself with more marines, better upgrades, more scvs, and faster tech/3rd bases. It's because everything in my build has been done so many times that I've worked out the inefficiencies more than the other guy. 6 - Learn other builds. Once you have 3 standard builds for all the match-ups, then you can branch out and learn the cheeses. What if you play the same guy 2 or 3 times and you want to mix it up?! Don't. If you can't play out your build perfectly more often than not up till 10 - 12 minutes then don't cheese because you're just slowing your progression to having good mechanics.
On March 12 2012 21:30 idonthinksobro wrote: there is lots of stuff that indicates that this is a game on a very low level, bronze or silver or possibly gold(z) vs silver(t) or something.
Sure, absolutely, Low level players, even almost two years into the game's release, don't have solid build orders, don't have good multitasking, have zero knowledge of good timings, have crappy or nonexistent micro, etc. Most of the players at this level probably play a few games a month.
That's a long way from the sitting around doing nothing for minutes at a time or attacking with 10 marines at 20 minutes that Gheed's posts and some people here talk about (and which was a whole lot more common in early season 1.) This is probably the type of difference one sees between low and high bronze.
Incidentally, I have noticed the past couple seasons that in my platinum division (last season) and my gold division (this season) the average activity is way up, which suggests that the less active players are dropping out. Most of the top 50 spots in my division have 30+ games for the season, whereas in the first and second seasons only maybe the top 10 players (by activity) would have 30+ games.
On March 13 2012 04:37 GlocKomA wrote: You can be in masters with low apm. You can be a progamer with around 100 (Sjow, GoOdY). Quantity < Quality.
Your post has a lot of great suggestions, and makes a lot of sense. However, I think that you greatly underestimate your own talent with respect to picking up mechanics. There's a reason that mechanics alone can get people into master league, being the top few percent -- that reason is that the vast majority of people out there find it exceptionally difficult to execute at that level, even with tons of practice.
Pick builds that don't rely a lot on metagaming, guessing, or scouting. Just standard builds.
I have not yet found the Zerg build that doesn't greatly rely on those things, because with any Zerg build the switch from droning to unit production is 100% scouting dependent, and a wrong move or mistaken understanding of how aggressive the opponent will be seems to yield a loss. As a player bouncing between gold and plat, my mechanics could use some improvement, but I'm certainly able to come within 10% or so of the optimal time to maxed out when I'm in a game by myself -- it's the decision-making and reacting to the other player that kills me.
If you have any thoughts about how to improve on that front, I'd love to hear them. The only really strong timing I'm aware of that seems to be good vs. just about anything at my level is the 7 roach rush, and I'm not sure picking that as my one build to work on really will improve my game that much.
Experience is really the best. Playing lots of games helps you recognize enemy builds and prepare for them. Ask yourself obvious questions while your'e building. For example why am I building x unit right now instead of y or z. Are you just guessing? If that's the case you should be scouting more. If you're doing things for no reason instead of to prepare yourself against your opponent it's a coin flip and you probably won't come out on top.
On March 13 2012 04:37 GlocKomA wrote: You can be in masters with low apm. You can be a progamer with around 100 (Sjow, GoOdY). Quantity < Quality.
Your post has a lot of great suggestions, and makes a lot of sense. However, I think that you greatly underestimate your own talent with respect to picking up mechanics. There's a reason that mechanics alone can get people into master league, being the top few percent -- that reason is that the vast majority of people out there find it exceptionally difficult to execute at that level, even with tons of practice.
Pick builds that don't rely a lot on metagaming, guessing, or scouting. Just standard builds.
I have not yet found the Zerg build that doesn't greatly rely on those things, because with any Zerg build the switch from droning to unit production is 100% scouting dependent, and a wrong move or mistaken understanding of how aggressive the opponent will be seems to yield a loss. As a player bouncing between gold and plat, my mechanics could use some improvement, but I'm certainly able to come within 10% or so of the optimal time to maxed out when I'm in a game by myself -- it's the decision-making and reacting to the other player that kills me.
Ooops I am obviously talking about P or T.... Zerg is completely different, but easier in my opinion because you're just reacting. I played Zerg for 4 straight seasons and I found that it is less about "learning a build" and more of "see what he is doing... make the counter."
Zerg is just plain different from P or T.
However, it's all about mental reminders, when units come out (4:05 for stalker for example), timings you can die to (5:45-6:00 no expo = 4 WG), and know what he CAN and CANNOT have. It's even more mindless at some level to play Zerg (not in a badway).
I used to spend a lot of time in that league... I was frustated too.... Then i took a major break and i was back on sc2 , i practice hardcore my mechanics and it seems to pay off!! Im currently in top gold now
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
The thing is, unless you're at the top of the ladder (top GM) getting better will NOT lead to you winning more. So trying to improve will not lead to you having more fun. IMO, if you're having fun keep doing what you are doing... It's a game. + Show Spoiler +
Obviously, some people find it fun to get better and track their progress. I know I'll probably never hit GM, but I'm still trying to get better because I find progress fun.
You will win more, and then you will start losing a little, but if you continue to improve, there is no reason why you cannot keep winning. I did it from plat to diamond on EU in season 4 i think it was.
On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad.
Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right.
Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is.
The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze.
EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths.
I toward find your attitude about pointless programming very complacent. This is always bad and thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is. It's not possible to use a computer without being proficient in pointless programming. I will send you this link so that you can get basic instruction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming
But seriously, who are you to define what is fun for other people. Why should we care about your personally approved and certified form of fun?
EDIT: Btw the *winning more* part doesn't hold and is addressed by me precedent post and the post just above this one (that you are reading now).
Your point about programming is not related or relevant, so I am disregarding it. I can do basic programming, if you were interested anyway. Who I am to define fun is someone who has seen a lot of people have fun doing it that way, seeing a lot of people feeling more satisfied operating in an intentioned fashion, and seeing many people grow as individuals as a result of altering how they view "fun" so that it is more productive. All of these points are regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, and how I came to my conclusion. I don't approve it necessarily, I just know that it works.
People are a lot less unique than they like to think. Hard work and a positive attitude about learning gets everyone farther-theres a dude training at the IM house that is a quadriplegic. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319796 If you were interested.
You will win more, and then you will start losing a little, but if you continue to improve, there is no reason why you cannot keep winning. I did it from plat to diamond on EU in season 4 i think it was.
You will lose 50% of your matches once you reach your stable point. The ladder is built in this intent. The only way you have to escape this phenomenon is to become a (very?)high master/GM/Pro (good enough to reach the MMR ceiling) and that is pretty much impossible for the extreme vast majority of SC2 players.
Your point about programming is not related or relevant, so I am disregarding it. I can do basic programming, if you were interested anyway. Who I am to define fun is someone who has seen a lot of people have fun doing it that way, seeing a lot of people feeling more satisfied operating in an intentioned fashion, and seeing many people grow as individuals as a result of altering how they view "fun" so that it is more productive. All of these points are regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, and how I came to my conclusion. I don't approve it necessarily, I just know that it works.
People are a lot less unique than they like to think. Hard work and a positive attitude about learning gets everyone farther-theres a dude training at the IM house that is a quadriplegic. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319796 If you were interested.
An accretion of "I just know" and lack of arguments... Moreover I sadly overlooked the fact that many united states people are obsessed with productivity... No point in going on since the path we walk on lead to full frontal cultural clash.
im a bronze level zerg in SEA. ive played over 500 games as zerg. all in bronze. i hear alot of people say "find one build and refine until perfect" it doesnt work like that. these days i just try and 15 Hatch 14 Gas 14 Gas ??????? Win/Lose I am good with zerg macro: Queens,Upgrades,Teching but i am just at the state that im bronze and will never get out. i play +2 hours a day and nothing gets acheived. i enjoy this game (most the time) and am not going to quit when going through a bad phase HELP
On March 13 2012 09:06 GlocKomA wrote: However, it's all about mental reminders, when units come out (4:05 for stalker for example), timings you can die to (5:45-6:00 no expo = 4 WG), and know what he CAN and CANNOT have. It's even more mindless at some level to play Zerg (not in a badway).
Yeah, it's mindless once you know all those timings by heart! I have an excellent handle on the key ones that yield an auto-loss (like when a 4-gate can arrive, when I'm likely to see fast cloaked units, when I'll see banelings or roaches or mutas) but many of my losses come from mistaking a build with some econ possibility for an all-in, or vice versa. And, even when I know what's coming (which is a lot of the time these days) I can be pretty bad at reacting properly, but I guess that's back to mechanics or the vague "game sense" depending on the specific nature of the failure.
What's funny is that I absolutely nail those things about half the time, and roll my opponents. The other half, I screw it up and get picked apart. Yes, patching the holes in my mechanics (which can sometimes have very rough spots) and tightening up build orders is pretty much all I'd need to succeed, but the fact is that the last 10% can sometimes take 90% of the effort.
Regardless, when confronted with Diamond+ players who declare how easy it is, I'm mostly struck by how much of their internalized knowledge is unconscious, or taken for granted.
The reason why bronze-level players are looked down upon is elitism: anyone who is worse that yourself is a scrub whilst anyone better is a no-lifer who plays too much.
The comments that bronze is better now don't surprise me, however it REALLY does not feel like it from my point of view. I was relatively active in the first 2 seasons, around gold level, and the only thing I knew how to do was macro. Nothing fancy, not much of a build order idea, just make lots of units and expand regularly.
I started playing again a few weeks back, very lightly. By lightly I mean literally 2-3 games per week. My mechanics (awesome as they were) are far worse, and I've switched from Protoss to playing random, just because I felt like discovering the other races as well. This means I know NO build orders, or even how many buildings a certain econ can support, so I wing it 100%! I played 1v1 and 2v2 and CRUSHED gold players. Not even close. I actually kept thinking I was matched up against bronze people seeing how easy it was.
Since I know that people have mediocre macro and are generally scared of expanding I make the most of it. Always be weary of cheese because that doesn't take any skill to pull off, and play safe. I like to keep a unit near the guy's base to see if he expands or if an attack is coming. I'm very bad with map awareness so having the "under attack" ping keeps me awake on that front.
I quite frankly don't understand how someone can stay in bronze indefinitely, when looking at how much I personally know about the game, how I approach it (pure fun and random builds, I don't want to make myself learn anything), and the quality of my mechanics (gah.). The only thing I have on my side is a slightly better understanding of the game than some. Would that really be enough? I doubt it... Then again after reading Gheed's blog on the bronze league, maybe...
IstgG, I'd like to help but I don't own a SEA account. Please post last 3 reps, win or lose, as long as they are disconnect games. I played zerg through beta, and was fairly active the first few seasons. Not a prodigy, I remember being in copper league when it still existed. Most of sc2 career I've been diamond, recently plat from inactivity, and reclimbing. I'm far from a perfect player and frequently screw up mechanics. Just a normal guy trying to help another guy out.
i watched my friend play sc2 he doesnt really play games and my god even when im pointing what to do its like a turtle in slow motion. is that what you guys are like?
A few people I know are still in the bronze league. To their credit, they're still playing and having fun, unlike a lot of inactive higher ranked players I know who obsess over their ranks.
insearchof, although i know exactly what you mean that is quite an over-generalization and rather insulting. I, for one, remember having played sc1, wc3, aoe, and still having my run in bronze for quite some time, despite not being “a turtle in slow motion"
On March 13 2012 16:37 dUTtrOACh wrote: A few people I know are still in the bronze league. To their credit, they're still playing and having fun, unlike a lot of inactive higher ranked players I know who obsess over their ranks.
I know that I've definitely quit more than once worried about current ranking. I admire those players willing to screw around. I also genuinely believe that if a person does not possess any physical or mental disabilities and has the desire to leave bronze league, it is possible.
I remember when i was starting broodwar, i couldn't progress fast enough. One day, I decided to be stronger and it happened. I was D+ish on iccup and somewhat acheived B-.
It's all about will and mental state, play to progress and do better than your best not to win. Change your gameplay, your habits, don't be lazy ingame. Focus more on understanding the flow of the game and the macro than the micro.
If you're happy in bronze, you won't get out of bronze !
I was in top diamond for a while and decided to join Master.. here i am !
People are getting bored with the game and are playing less and less, this is a fact revealed by blizzard themselves. So a lot of players purposely lose game so they can get enjoyment out of noob stomping people in bronze league. I'm not surprised by this at all, it's actually a common occurrence in blizzard games. In WoW people in epic pvp gear would disband their arena team once they got their points for the week so they could one-shot the people in lower gear.
On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
Care to post a replay or two? 40-60 APM seems awfully low to get much done on anything over 1 base. And yes, if you got into Masters with an hour a week of gameplay, you've got some "natural" talent that was either there from the beginning, or that you developed through some other activity when you were younger.
Sure, here's the last two ladder games I played. It was off my protoss account (which I'm high Diamond in, quickly moving towards Masters).
OK, for current gold league, here's a game I played a little bit ago, a win. I'm currently ranked 19th in my division (with 0 bonus points remaining and 362 points total) so I'd say I'm a pretty typical active gold player.
I haven't really analyzed these replays in depth -- they're my most recent win and loss. However, they're pretty typical for how wins and losses go for me, mostly one-sided.
Edit: Both these opponents were gold. I think if you compared either of these games to the stuff going on in gold league in S1, you'd see something very different.
On March 13 2012 16:26 Azzur wrote: The reason why bronze-level players are looked down upon is elitism: anyone who is worse that yourself is a scrub whilst anyone better is a no-lifer who plays too much.
The only bronze players that are looked down upon here are the ones who think that they are good and try to blame others for their mistakes. Haven't you noticed that every bronze player claiming that he can macro has never (and probably will never) posted a replay? This is why I cannot respect the OP. Resigning yourself to be in bronze, really? Anyone who has even an ounce of determination can get out of bronze.
Now I suppose I am going to get slammed on the grounds that "OMG WHO CARES AS LONG AS HE'S HAVING FUN?" If you are content with your skill level and are having fun, that's fine. But please don't delude yourself; you are in bronze because you are bad, and if you made the effort to improve your mechanics you would easily climb out of bronze.
On March 08 2012 18:45 Vallz wrote: Step 1 : Find a tactic to carry yourself out of bronze. Preferably some tactic that requires good timing because timing always helps! Step 2 : Reach gold / platinum level Step 3 : Now you have realised it doesn't work 80% time anymore, start to learn play properly. Step 4 : ??????????? Step 5 : Profit
That's basically how I reached Masters from Bronze :D
This is actually quite true. I'm current a high master player but I never had anything with RTS games, when I started playing I started off in bronze (beta, so silver in current setting). I didn't really know what to do. Went with random and started doing stuff. I think I got promoted with that. So apparently I was doing something good... When I settled for protoss all I did was 4gate for tons of games. Got me up a few leagues. Then I went for 3gate robo, that got me up to diamond (the highest league back then, before master/grandmaster were implemented). Then I hit a point that everyone was expanding and stopping my push. So I had to change my build to expand too and I kept evolving my play like that. Play with something till it no longer works.
But got its reasons. Bought the game at release, and up to last weekend last loging was the release date. But, being an active wow player things always comes up, and last weekend some i play with asked if anyone had SC2 and I went, wtf, lets patch and see if its fun. After an hour patching I was ready=)....to get completly smashed in the initial 5 games. No surprise there really. But, beign as I am, if I suck at something I cant give it up until I stopped sucking at it, so obviously......I continued to be smashed.
Ok, well, I think I need some basic ideas about how to do stuff, not played any rts since like. So, started to google.
This is where much of discussions about new players go wrong tho. Normally its something like: Find a build, do x do y, if he do x do y.
However, as a new player, I ahve no idea about abbrevations, which makes me lost or not fully understand. Most that replies have been playing for so long that they take things for granted. Some things u can guess, like macro/micro, and other u can at best guess.
Not having any knowledge is the problem. I'm getting old, so i got lots of patience, but can see younger new players just give up, and that is not good for the game at all. There will always be people quitting, which means new blood is always needed for a game not to get forgotten.
Ive read thru all the posts in this thread. I'm not 100% sure how the divisions of the ladder is divided, but someone said it was 20% bronze. Which means that if people quit, and I guess that hell of a lot people quit since release, its just normal that bronze is harder then it was back then. Same goes for all above. The more people at higher evolve their gameplay, the more the ones below need to evolve theirs to get up. And ofc if its 20%, and mostly lower people dropping out, the divisions above will ahve to have people drop down.
But ofc, bronze will always ahve the widest gap between their best and their worst.
@op Its nice that u are happy where u are. As long as u enjoy the game I cant see anyhting wrong with it. The MMR is there for a reason, and that is to make it enjoyable for players no matter where on the ladder they are.
Personally I need more research, maybe decide which race to play (terran is nice, but protoss got lazors), and then learn some basics. I will ofcourse try to climb the ladder in time, but tbh, if I get stuck somewhere in bronze but still winning 50% of teh games while enjoying the game, I wont mind much. Will hurt my giant ego some maybe, but sometimes that might be necessary^^
PS. If there is any player that wants to help out, gimme a shout
I went through about the first 16 minutes of your first replay and felt it was enough to pick out a few major criticisms of your play. Remedying these will definitely streamline your playstyle and should, in theory, put you back into plat league.
First off, your build revolved around hatch ->gas-> pool. Against protoss this isn't really a bad build, assuming you plan on doing something with the gas. Commonly ling speed/ Roach ling pressure/all-in come to mind. What I noticed, however, is that you either forgot or never planned on doing anything with this gas, and it heavily hindered your abilities to drone and saturate effectively early game.
One thing I must applaud you on, however, is your initiative to place your overlord in an optimal scouting zone. However, you completely misused scouting information. Your overlord saw that he was just placing his cybernetics, therefore the possibility of warpgate pressure was far in the future. Having lings on the watchtowers/ poking his front, should have given you enough warning/ evidence that he was not going to be zealot rushing you either, therefore the spine crawlers placed on your natural were completely unwarranted.
At one point, I recall seeing 32-35 drones on minerals on your main. Please learn to rally workers to your 3rd or manually transfer them to not waste mining potential.
Lastly, checking your APM you definitely seem to have speed enough to be moving overlords away from phoenixes to your spore crawler defended main, yet you just move your camera to the phoenixes and stare at them. I assume you upgraded overlord speed in order to move them, so I don't understand what exactly happened here. Nerves get the best of us, and I would assume this was the case although I really have no idea.
Blindly making roaches to crash into a protoss is also kinda 1/2 thinking in the right direction. You need more ground intel poking around before committing so many resources. Also boggled me how you didnt dedicate any resources into counter air units, and had continued to build spine crawlers.
All in all tl;dr version
1.) have a game plan with your gas 2.) split your drones across bases better 3.) accurately use data from your scouting 4.) more active scouting after OV scout
I think working on these 4 alone should keep you busy in the meantime and reap you good benefits. Good luck in your endeavors back to plat league!
On March 13 2012 16:20 IstgG wrote: im a bronze level zerg in SEA. ive played over 500 games as zerg. all in bronze. i hear alot of people say "find one build and refine until perfect" it doesnt work like that. these days i just try and 15 Hatch 14 Gas 14 Gas ??????? Win/Lose I am good with zerg macro: Queens,Upgrades,Teching but i am just at the state that im bronze and will never get out. i play +2 hours a day and nothing gets acheived. i enjoy this game (most the time) and am not going to quit when going through a bad phase HELP
Your build makes literally no sense. Why did you take 2 gases after Hatchery, there is literally no reason to do this what so ever. Try this 9-overlord 14-gas 14-pool 16-overlord when spawning pool finished get ling speed and take drones out of gas 21- hatchery
You will win more, and then you will start losing a little, but if you continue to improve, there is no reason why you cannot keep winning. I did it from plat to diamond on EU in season 4 i think it was.
You will lose 50% of your matches once you reach your stable point. The ladder is built in this intent. The only way you have to escape this phenomenon is to become a (very?)high master/GM/Pro (good enough to reach the MMR ceiling) and that is pretty much impossible for the extreme vast majority of SC2 players.
Your point about programming is not related or relevant, so I am disregarding it. I can do basic programming, if you were interested anyway. Who I am to define fun is someone who has seen a lot of people have fun doing it that way, seeing a lot of people feeling more satisfied operating in an intentioned fashion, and seeing many people grow as individuals as a result of altering how they view "fun" so that it is more productive. All of these points are regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, and how I came to my conclusion. I don't approve it necessarily, I just know that it works.
People are a lot less unique than they like to think. Hard work and a positive attitude about learning gets everyone farther-theres a dude training at the IM house that is a quadriplegic. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319796 If you were interested.
An accretion of "I just know" and lack of arguments... Moreover I sadly overlooked the fact that many united states people are obsessed with productivity... No point in going on since the path we walk on lead to full frontal cultural clash.
That stable point can be pushed back through continual improvement is what I am positing, not that it can be indefinitely postponed. It's not "just I know." Who are you to discount the experiences of the many, many people I have been in contact with? Hundreds of people saying the same thing. Nationality has nothing to do with it, and if it did, then the States would be a bad example as it is full of lazy bums unwilling to rise to any occasion. You may not agree with what I posit, and if you want me to provide explicit quotations from a few of the people I can do that as evidence, as long as you also provide some. I don't see you with any actual argument besides That people are different an like different things-they can, but the overlap suggests otherwise in my opinion. While everyone brings something unique to the table, there is nothing new under the sun, and they are less unique than they want to believe, I am not exempt.
I played a cheesy dude yesterday. Iam Top 8 silver, and went early CC i only misplaced my bunker after the rax! Then he trolled me for being a noob, i knew he was goin 2 proxy rax or go 3 rax on my ass. But He actually go for 4 RAX some kind of TLO style But tell me Honestly, who is the noob me or him, cause i dont find a early CC a noobish style!(its more of a challenge 8 out of 10 games i can defend it) Btw i got 107 wins XD in the new season and i really want 2 go 2 gold, cause i beat gold all the time. Even every platinum Matchup.Need sum advice!
Cheers. You're definitely a lot faster than your average APM would suggest, its particularly noticeable in the 2nd game, where you're microing like a boss and still getting good warp-ins, which a lot of players would struggle to do in that timeframe. But you're right, I guess high diamond isn't as full of speedy ubermensch as I thought
On March 13 2012 15:49 freakhill wrote:Moreover I sadly overlooked the fact that many united states people are obsessed with productivity... No point in going on since the path we walk on lead to full frontal cultural clash.
I've been thinking this over and over throughout the whole thread. Every time I read "Winning is fun, getting better is fun, improving is fun. If you aren't doing those things, you're not having fun - you're just deluding yourself," I think "Well that's a distinctly Western way to look at things." (Also, those people would to well to google "denying the antecedent.") There are lots of ways to have fun, and ultimately that's what a hobby is about. That's not to mock people who do find research and practice and rising in the ranks to be fun - from what I can tell, people leap way too often into an if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us mentality. Everyone just chill - one person's beliefs don't negate the validity of your beliefs. That's not how things work.
On March 13 2012 20:38 Apz wrote: Ok, well, I think I need some basic ideas about how to do stuff, not played any rts since like. So, started to google. This is where much of discussions about new players go wrong tho. Normally its something like: Find a build, do x do y, if he do x do y. However, as a new player, I ahve no idea about abbrevations, which makes me lost or not fully understand. Most that replies have been playing for so long that they take things for granted. Some things u can guess, like macro/micro, and other u can at best guess. Not having any knowledge is the problem.
...There will always be people quitting, which means new blood is always needed for a game not to get forgotten.
Spot on. I posted about this at length a little while back. Long story short: skilled people forget what it was like to be unskilled.
On March 13 2012 16:38 interpolarity wrote: insearchof, although i know exactly what you mean that is quite an over-generalization and rather insulting. I, for one, remember having played sc1, wc3, aoe, and still having my run in bronze for quite some time, despite not being “a turtle in slow motion"
well speed doesnt mean too much!
my big brother is 26 years old and has rts experience only in singleplayer - some c&c, AoE and wc3, not much at all. Everything he knows about starcraft and starcraft II is from watching me play about 20 laddergames, he doesnt use hotkeys other than grouping units. He never played anything online.
He started to play on an account for fun online after playing 5 missions of the campaign. After placements, he got into gold and after 25 games, he advanced to platinum (well, and thats where he stopped playing again cause of reallife^^)
To be fair, i helped him a bit and told him what to do sometimes (which is quite fair since he didnt even know every unit^^), but i rly have a hard time understanding how ppl can be stuck in bronze while rly trying to get better.
I dont wanna offend anyone with that, this story is just for expressing some ppls feelings when they are a bit harsh towards bronze players. Just dont take it too hard and try to understand how ppl that are natrually talented can feel sometimes when they read certain things.
I think that a lot of this "I have a build and know it" that I hear from Bronzers is just a lie. You may HAVE a build order. You might be able to follow it supply to supply for 5 minutes. But it's the speed that makes the difference.
Show me a Protoss or Terran bronze player that can follow a mapped out build order to 70 supply without messing up their build or taking a lot of extra time to make units/buildings.
I bet you can't, because they won't be bronzers at that point. Honestly, crisp timings are what make or break players. You can't tell me that any player under maybe Diamond is going to be able to hold off an A-move attack from a 2 base collosi timing -- if the build is done in a timely and efficient manner.
Protoss and Terran rely on strong timings to be efficient and effective at ALL levels of play. A good timing for lower league players is broader than that for top masters/GMs. Example: having 3 collosi with range at around 11-12 minutes is a good timing for a lower level player. Having +1, stim, and medivacs finishing at the same time for a nice TvT timing at 10:00 is a good timing for a GM player.
On March 13 2012 23:35 GlocKomA wrote: I think that a lot of this "I have a build and know it" that I hear from Bronzers is just a lie. You may HAVE a build order. You might be able to follow it supply to supply for 5 minutes. But it's the speed that makes the difference.
Show me a Protoss or Terran bronze player that can follow a mapped out build order to 70 supply without messing up their build or taking a lot of extra time to make units/buildings.
There's rarely such a thing as a mapped out build order before 70 supply, because unless your opponent is asleep he'll have done *something* to interrupt it by then. I think a major advantage higher levels players have that they seem to forget about, is that they're able to deal with these interruptions without breaking their buildorder more than needed. The whole process of -recognising what's happening quickly(reaper in your main, bunker at your natural, whatever) -remembering the right response from memory, or thinking of one on the spot. Assuming you even *know* what the right response is. -executing that response smoothly, AND still having enough apm left over to keep the build order going. That's the killer. If I barely have enough apm to follow the buildorder, harassment just pushes me over the edge.
The worst thing is that most of the time these harassments only pop up occasionally, so I'd rarely get the chance to practice the right response. A few exceptions being the bunker rushes and banshee/voidray harass as Zerg, because they were just so bloody common
You're right though. Even without any distractions, I mess up my builds now and then. I'm just a very forgetful person, and the amount of drilling I'd need to overcome just isn't worth it.
On March 13 2012 23:35 GlocKomA wrote: I think that a lot of this "I have a build and know it" that I hear from Bronzers is just a lie. You may HAVE a build order. You might be able to follow it supply to supply for 5 minutes. But it's the speed that makes the difference.
Show me a Protoss or Terran bronze player that can follow a mapped out build order to 70 supply without messing up their build or taking a lot of extra time to make units/buildings.
There's rarely such a thing as a mapped out build order before 70 supply, because unless your opponent is asleep he'll have done *something* to interrupt it by then. I think a major advantage higher levels players have that they seem to forget about, is that they're able to deal with these interruptions without breaking their buildorder more than needed. The whole process of -recognising what's happening quickly(reaper in your main, bunker at your natural, whatever) -remembering the right response from memory, or thinking of one on the spot. Assuming you even *know* what the right response is. -executing that response smoothly, AND still having enough apm left over to keep the build order going. That's the killer. If I barely have enough apm to follow the buildorder, harassment just pushes me over the edge.
The worst thing is that most of the time these harassments only pop up occasionally, so I'd rarely get the chance to practice the right response. A few exceptions being the bunker rushes and banshee/voidray harass as Zerg, because they were just so bloody common
You're right though. Even without any distractions, I mess up my builds now and then. I'm just a very forgetful person, and the amount of drilling I'd need to overcome just isn't worth it.
I guess this would be the second overall issue that lower league players struggle with. Good build order mechanics are obviously important at all levels... I doubt that any player than can basically execute a build in the right order will be bronze. Being able to defend (easier than harassing) would be the second part of "getting out of bronze".
I think the point stands about having a build order up to ~70 supply (10:00 or your preferred timing). Obviously you lose units (scouting worker, some marines in defense, etc) but having the basic supply order mapped out will help immensely. When you get to a higher GM level then you can factor in losing units and how that is going to effect your supply + resource management. Usually you NEED to replace certain units if you lose them (sentries, siege tanks etc) because they're part of your defense, and that will weaken timings.
I know I am rambling a lot here but the point remains, you need to work as closely to your build as possible while deflecting harassment. The great thing about a lot of refined builds (again harping on ThorzaiN's TvT ) is that they factor in a lot of harassment deflection (bunker at ramp, 2x turrets in mineral lines, lots of marines which scale well in the first 10 minutes).
Let me run through some games I've played to show you:
Open 1 rax FE (on low ground) Bunker at low ground -Sometimes I've gotten marine/scv all-in. Having the tower, it's a matter of bunker mass repair. Obviously a bad cheese/harassment. Throwing down Raxs and add-ons/etc. -Cloaked banshee comes around 7 minutes, at 40 supply in this build you get an engi bay and 1 turret, you also save a scan. Keeps you safe from that (you also have combat shields). -Sometimes I get 1 base tank pushes that come around this time. With an okay marine spread, I can just a-move with those Marines and some SCVs and still have a large enough economy to be ahead after all is said and done. By now it's the 10:00 mark and I have medivacs, +1, stim, etc. Almost 100 supply and a nice timing where I can bait and mass drop or take my third while using my mobility to deny his third.
The point of all this is: I never have to scout beyond the watchtower. I don't need to scan, I don't need to alter my build to do well because it factors all the the defense in. With a decent build you can make it out of the shittier leagues.
Watch the Day9 video and see how even at the pro level - better builds, solid builds, win games. Imagine that level of refinement at the lower leagues.
Watch the Day9 video and see how even at the pro level - better builds, solid builds, win games. Imagine that level of refinement at the lower leagues.
On March 13 2012 16:20 IstgG wrote: im a bronze level zerg in SEA. ive played over 500 games as zerg. all in bronze. i hear alot of people say "find one build and refine until perfect" it doesnt work like that. these days i just try and 15 Hatch 14 Gas 14 Gas ??????? Win/Lose I am good with zerg macro: Queens,Upgrades,Teching but i am just at the state that im bronze and will never get out. i play +2 hours a day and nothing gets acheived. i enjoy this game (most the time) and am not going to quit when going through a bad phase HELP
1) That is an opener, not a full build. You say you have no idea what to do after 14, and you should know what to do. 2) I assume one of those 'gas' is meant to be 'pool', because otherwise, that's terrible. 3) You're not good with Zerg macro. This is the biggest reason you are still bronze.
Cheers. You're definitely a lot faster than your average APM would suggest, its particularly noticeable in the 2nd game, where you're microing like a boss and still getting good warp-ins, which a lot of players would struggle to do in that timeframe. But you're right, I guess high diamond isn't as full of speedy ubermensch as I thought
Don't adulate me. I'm quite bad at SC2. And I'm not saying that out of false humility, or in a bleak contrast to pro players. I'm saying that because I'm well aware of my many flaws, and just how grave they are. That's what separates bronzies from casual players that make it to Masters. If you just want to fool around in the bottom leagues, by all means. Somebody has to fill them. What's astounding, though, is when Bronze/Silver players complain that they're doing everything right, and give a variety of excuses for why they're in the bottom leagues. That's a bunch of crap. The reason why I'm in the top 2% of NA players is because I actively try to improve my consistent flaws, and thus avoid those errors in the next game. If you're unable to admit you're doing plenty of things wrong and just keep hammering the nail the same way, you'll probably never change leagues. Saying things like "people in Bronze are much better now" is just an excuse for complacency.
Cheers. You're definitely a lot faster than your average APM would suggest, its particularly noticeable in the 2nd game, where you're microing like a boss and still getting good warp-ins, which a lot of players would struggle to do in that timeframe. But you're right, I guess high diamond isn't as full of speedy ubermensch as I thought
Don't adulate me. I'm quite bad at SC2. And I'm not saying that out of false humility, or in a bleak contrast to pro players. I'm saying that because I'm well aware of my many flaws, and just how grave they are. That's what separates bronzies from casual players that make it to Masters. If you just want to fool around in the bottom leagues, by all means. Somebody has to fill them. What's astounding, though, is when Bronze/Silver players complain that they're doing everything right, and give a variety of excuses for why they're in the bottom leagues. That's a bunch of crap. The reason why I'm in the top 2% of NA players is because I actively try to improve my consistent flaws, and thus avoid those errors in the next game. If you're unable to admit you're doing plenty of things wrong and just keep hammering the nail the same way, you'll probably never change leagues. Saying things like "people in Bronze are much better now" is just an excuse for complacency.
Well atleast you're modest Listen mate, I doubt you're the only person in SC2 who's stumbled onto the concept that you have to "actively try to improve your consistent flaws". If you're in the top 2% of NA players, its because you're putting a lot more hours into actively improving your flaws, or you don't have to put in as many hours because of some intangible thing you already had before you started compared to the rest. And you've already said you got there with an hour a day on average, so it ain't huge numbers of hours. What else is there? The notion that of the other 98%, that *every single one of them* is not putting effort in, or "not training right", is stupid.
On March 14 2012 05:39 LightSpectra wrote: Saying things like "people in Bronze are much better now" is just an excuse for complacency.
The reason people are saying that in this thread is to respond to the question of "how can you have played lots of games and not have improved?" The answer is that it's possible to have improved a fair amount at the game without being promoted, particularly in bronze league where play can range from looking things up in the menus every 30 seconds to actually using hotkeys and just playing slowly or not executing well.
"People in bronze are much better now" doesn't have to be an excuse, it's a fair response to an unfair accusation of complete stagnancy. The real question isn't "why aren't you improving," but "of course you're improving, now what do you have to do to improve faster than the people around you?"
They might be putting in a lot of hours but they're missing fundamental parts of the game. As this thread shows, there's bronzies that have played between three to fifteen times as much as I have and are stuck in the bottom league. And I would bet money that it's not that I'm naturally more talented (considering my slow speed and how many conceptual errors I make), but rather my attitude. Many of the bronzies in this this thread are complaining that they're plenty good at everything important and that they don't deserve all the criticism that flies their way, and that also people in higher leagues gravely misperceive what they're doing wrong. Contrariwise, I got into Masters league after about 60 hours of playing (one hour a week for about a year) because I'm very quick to identify what I suck at, what I did wrong, and then practice until those things are ironed out.
I mean, when somebody in bronze says "I scout and I'm good at macro," they're lying to themselves. If you scout and macro, you can get into Platinum league by a-moving stalkers or marines. That's significant because if you don't identify what to fix, you're not going to improve. If you lose to a 6pool, a smart player will learn to send an early scout or wall better; a bad player is going to say "It's not my fault, cheese is stupid" or "they're lucky they got close position", or give some other excuse not to fix what they're doing.
I am high gold, almost plat. But i am posting here, cause i was stuck in bronze for almost a year. I followd Day 9 and every pro tournament in BW and in SC2, when i was in bronze and i had over 100 wins in 1st and 2nd season. But then one day i just got promoted to gold. I dont know why and how i just wasnt opsesed with league and promotions and just played for fun. This is a game after all have fun with it, dont tend to be better league, tend to be better gamer!
First of all, you shouldnt really care what other people think, and reading your OP, I dont think you do, which is good.
That said, I'll be one of the people that says 'i dont understand how you can still be in bronze' lol. Maybe you dont actually put the smallest amount of effort into the game? Or maybe you just want to relax? Which I can respect, and I actually got burned out by 'trying too hard' to go up in rank, and now I dont even play or enjoy the game at all anymore. The last thing you want is for that to happen to you. I managed diamond after my first 3 weeks of playing the game (with no BW or rts experience) and then i didnt really care for the game anymore.
But....cmon man lol. You can get out of bronze, there is no reason to be stuck there unintentionally lol.
If it is any motivation for you, there is actually a guy that has no hands that plays sc2 at a platinum level. He actually isnt bad at all, and it's pretty impressive what he can do with his handicap. Search LookNoHands or No hands starcraft on youtube if you dont believe me lol.
Bronzies are better than they used to be, at least better than the stereotypes. I was C- in BW, started SC2 1 year after it came out (exactly one year, I got my copy July 27 2011), was a shaky silver in 4v4 and then stayed bronze up until very recently where I went thru silver and am now low gold in 1v1.
I have to say, Bronze League is harder than Silver League. The two play nearly identically from my experience, but since there's more cheese in Bronze, everyone's more cautious there. You can pull shit in silver that you can't do in bronze.
Really, all I did was find a good build order and improve my macro a little bit, and boom. Bronze people are better than they get credit for, especially since you can cheese in any league.
On March 14 2012 07:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Bronzies are better than they used to be, at least better than the stereotypes. I was C- in BW, started SC2 1 year after it came out (exactly one year, I got my copy July 27 2011), was a shaky silver in 4v4 and then stayed bronze up until very recently where I went thru silver and am now low gold in 1v1.
I have to say, Bronze League is harder than Silver League. The two play nearly identically from my experience, but since there's more cheese in Bronze, everyone's more cautious there. You can pull shit in silver that you can't do in bronze.
Really, all I did was find a good build order and improve my macro a little bit, and boom. Bronze people are better than they get credit for, especially since you can cheese in any league.
Sometimes it might seem that way, especially when people like me lower my rank to bronze to troll everyone But hey, you have to play people better than you to improve
I can understand being bronze from just buying the game a few months ago, but if your still a bronze now and you've been playing this game since the release.... your obviouslly doing something wrong.
And bronze people are just that. Bronze. If they were "better than the credit they get", they would have been promoted already.
If your stuck in bronze for this long, your doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
On March 14 2012 07:26 ContactKilla wrote: And bronze people are just that. Bronze. If they were "better than the credit they get", they would have been promoted already.
This statement makes absolutely no sense. Do you have any idea of how the ladder works?
I am in bronze but i am playing gold leaguers assuming that i will get promoted soon , but problem with bronze league is no plan, no organization and you can prasie bronze as much as you want thats the truth, i read a build here at the forum and stopped losing after first 2 games with it. Its just that and if you disagree you are clouding the truth.
On March 14 2012 08:09 raufal wrote: I am in bronze but i am playing gold leaguers assuming that i will get promoted soon , but problem with bronze league is no plan, no organization and you can prasie bronze as much as you want thats the truth, i read a build here at the forum and stopped losing after first 2 games with it. Its just that and if you disagree you are clouding the truth.
The high end of bronze have better organization than that, but you know that, since you're the high end of bronze right now.
I know people say 'macro' all the time but if you have a basic build order and know basically what units to make in what matchup you should be able to get out of bronze. I usually play Protoss in plat (yes I'm bad) but I tried off-racing as Zerg without knowing anything more than basic openings and managed to go straight to Gold just because I usually had more stuff than the opponent, even if I didn't engage that well or have crisp timings.
This debate is pretty much an exact replication of the "does elo hell exist" debate that every moba community has.
The answer is simple: No, it doesn't exist, and no, the bronze league is not better now than it ever was. I'm a masters zerg who often plays on a bronze account to go mass queen/void ray/scv/planetary and stuff like that, and it works just as much now as it did a year ago.
If people in bronze league were getting better, they would be out of bronze. Statistics dictate as such.
As a fellow "noob" I hear you OP. I'm thinking I may get a second account once I get in some higher leagues just for having fun. However, I started playing SC2 after getting frustrated with higher rated WoW arena. I want to get back to that level and beyond.
But no matter how good I ever get at this game, the memories of carrier rushing my friends in their basement back in high school during the BW days will never fade. I don't care if people call it cheese, there will always be a twitch in me that wants to do something for the lulz, it's part of the game and it makes the game less dull imo. I would hate for every match on the ladder to be standard builds/openings everytime.
I shared your sentiments. I play SC2 in bronze league and I have a good time! I don't stress over progression or losing. I don't want to be a progamer. Bronze league suits my low-stress approach to SC2 and Im surprised at how many people focus purely on "improvement" instead of enjoying themselves.
For the most part I am seeing a definite lack of whining bronze level players posting replays and asking for help in this thread. Insofar the most common posts have been "i am bronze and i've tried so hard cant get out" with no replays or any actual followup on people's help or tips, or posts dictating "wow bronze people suck, etc etc."
For those talking about day9, I would have to agree that the helpfulness of day9 does range quite a bit, and it really is quite difficult to pinpoint exactly which videos certain people should watch. If stuck at bronze level , I would simply recommend choosing your worst matchup, and watching any videos/ streams you can get your hands on on that particular matchup, and always watching newbie tuesdays. After I got out of platinum for the first time I ignorantly thought of myself as a "non-newbie", but newbie tuesday often surprises me with small bits of insight that I had not previously thought of, and should really be invaluable to all but the very best of players.
One thing I realized during the ladder climb is that until higher leagues, the "x-factor" that makes a person better than the rest of the group and eventually pass to a higher league varies immensely. I can only assume that the variation in bronze league is similar to what I have gone through, since I have no credibility on recent bronze league events. From what I remember, copper-bronze-silver was filled with what I'd like to call "skill specialization extremes." What i mean by this is person 1 may excel at rushing and aggression, at a level higher than the average bronze. Player 2 may excel at macro, at an understanding higher than average. In a showdown between person 1 and person 2, person 1 wins most of the time not because he is a better player, but because his skill specialization works better against person 2 in a similar way rock paper scissors works. If player 1 somehow screws up his aggression, player 2 will overcome player 1 due to superior macro.
I believe posters will agree with me when I say that the above statement is the basis for the "do one build and perfect it" theory. If you are an RPG player this would be similar to making a mage with only int or a theif/rogue with only dex. If your immediate goal is to leave bronze, I would recommend this tactic as well, as it is what I personally implemented. I admit I did not understand about 80% of the intricacies of all match-ups when I had reached platinum for the first time with this strategy, so use at your own risk, but then again this was season 1, and the game was much less evolved as it is now.
I hope I didn't bore too many people with this excessively long post, and hope that this thread becomes more productive in the future. TL has always been a place I go to share my love of starcraft with others, and I realized as part of the community I should do my best to help maintain the quality of content and community TL is known for.
If you are a lower div zerg, please feel free to provide 1-3 replays and I will review them as I have time and provide feedback. I am not a pro by any means so don't expect too much. Thank you for taking your time and reading this.
On March 14 2012 09:14 HyperionDreamer wrote: If people in bronze league were getting better, they would be out of bronze. Statistics dictate as such.
The percentage of players in every league is constant. Bronze is the bottom 20%. Since the ladder population is steadily dropping and very few new players come to the game, the average skill in bronze increases, therefore making promotion require more skill. Theoretically, if all players suddenly started playing at a grandmaster level, then 20% of them would get permanently stuck in bronze, with no hope of getting out.
It's highly unlikely, that a good player will suddenly completely stop playing a game he's invested hundreds of hours into, he may play less, but he will play. It's far more likely, that a bronze guy will get pissed at getting worker rushed and will give up the game completely. If noobs leave, the average skill level will go up.
"Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will: tend to overestimate their own level of skill; fail to recognize genuine skill in others; fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy; recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve."
If only they can improve instead of using arguments like "BUT THE LEAGUE IS MUCH HARDER NOW".
On March 14 2012 09:14 HyperionDreamer wrote: The answer is simple: No, it doesn't exist, and no, the bronze league is not better now than it ever was. I'm a masters zerg who often plays on a bronze account to go mass queen/void ray/scv/planetary and stuff like that, and it works just as much now as it did a year ago.
The improvement's there -- it's just not improvement at skills that have anything to do with surviving vs. a master league player who tanks their account. One example might be that compared to early season 1, a majority of bronze league players know on sight that banshees can't hit other air units. Big, community-wide improvement? Yes! A game-winner vs. anyone who's made it out of bronze league? No! (Seriously, in the early days I saw with my own eyes bronze league players lose games because they built banshees and didn't realize they weren't anti-air. This just doesn't happen today.)
If people in bronze league were getting better, they would be out of bronze. Statistics dictate as such.
Leagues are the equivalent of grading on a curve. Everyone who plays will get better as they play, but that doesn't mean a promotion unless they get better faster than the population. Statistics on this are hard to come by because there aren't any good population-wide metrics to evaluate individual performance at playing the game, only performance relative to other players.
On March 14 2012 13:55 lazyitachi wrote: If only they can improve instead of using arguments like "BUT THE LEAGUE IS MUCH HARDER NOW".
I said this before, but the people who are saying that (including me, and I'm not even in bronze league) aren't doing it as an excuse for not improving faster than the population -- they're doing it to answer the people who equate being in bronze league to total stagnation as opposed to improvement that's just not fast enough for a promotion.
Check my immediately previous post for an example of the kind of improvement that's happening in bronze league over time. It's a real thing -- it's just that getting promoted takes more than that.
I was a USA Gold-Player....Since coming to Korea, I haven't been able to get past bronze (currently bronze top 25) on the Korean server... ...BUT...I love playing the the PC-Rooms here in Korea...Roll in with a group of friends, and game hard. Love the game.
playing with whatever level you're at is where you should be.
On March 14 2012 09:54 interpolarity wrote: From what I remember, copper-bronze-silver was filled with what I'd like to call "skill specialization extremes." What i mean by this is person 1 may excel at rushing and aggression, at a level higher than the average bronze. Player 2 may excel at macro, at an understanding higher than average. In a showdown between person 1 and person 2, person 1 wins most of the time not because he is a better player, but because his skill specialization works better against person 2 in a similar way rock paper scissors works. If player 1 somehow screws up his aggression, player 2 will overcome player 1 due to superior macro.
I think this is an extremely important point. I (bouncing between gold and plat for a few seasons) regularly play customs with a friend from work who's at about my level, and our long-term record is very even, something like 25-25. However, the individual games are usually a rout one way or the other exactly because of this phenomenon.
Maybe the message is that you're only as good as your most glaring weakness, so the best way to actually be promoted is to find your absolute worst skill (in terms of contribution to actual ladder game losses, otherwise we'd all be practicing marine splitting) and practice the crap out of it.
i honestly think bronze league players need a proper mentor/guide to show them how to really improve at a much faster rate. Maybe coaching will do
Honestly, I think this would help a LOT of people. If someone's not improving rapidly enough to climb out of bronze with frequent play (more than a few times a week) it's probably that they're missing something key that another, more experienced pair of eyes might instantly recognize.
I think that a lot of bronze players don't know where to start, there is so much advice out there. I know that when i came to sc2 with almost no rts experience as a 24 year old, I had a lot of misconceptions. Having spent months in bronze I understand the frustration. I think if you do want to improve you can do so while still having fun with the game as well as enjoying the essentially competitive aspect of sc2. As far as how to actually get better, well that's the more difficult part. SC2 is a hard game. It's like learning chess and the piano at the same time. It's a challenge. Some learn some things faster than others. The speed with which you learn is not equivalent to your personal worth, and is not necessarily a predictor of your ability weeks or months from now.
Tl;DR: glhf, you will improve with work and time if that's what you want
On March 14 2012 13:55 lazyitachi wrote: If only they can improve instead of using arguments like "BUT THE LEAGUE IS MUCH HARDER NOW".
I said this before, but the people who are saying that (including me, and I'm not even in bronze league) aren't doing it as an excuse for not improving faster than the population -- they're doing it to answer the people who equate being in bronze league to total stagnation as opposed to improvement that's just not fast enough for a promotion.
Check my immediately previous post for an example of the kind of improvement that's happening in bronze league over time. It's a real thing -- it's just that getting promoted takes more than that.
There may be slight improvements but the point is it is not done where it matters the most - Macro! As many have also said before me, they want to feel like they are playing a Strategy game. If one is comfortable in bronze then it's cool. But anyone who wants to leave bronze cannot accept the fact that they literally don't have to attack and just make a decent unit compo and stomp others in bronze, then that's mind-boggling.
I have a IRL friend who is the same. He has horrible game sense and macro. I keep advising him to focus on making workers and units the whole game. When he loses, he asks "What strategy or units should I make to win?" THAT IS INFURIATING.
With the amount of "Macro efficiently" and "macro out of bronze" advise, how can one fail UNLESS one is fixed on not learning and refusing to shift his own paradigm to build a correct foundation.
On March 14 2012 13:55 lazyitachi wrote: "Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will: tend to overestimate their own level of skill; fail to recognize genuine skill in others; fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy; recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve."
If only they can improve instead of using arguments like "BUT THE LEAGUE IS MUCH HARDER NOW".
On March 14 2012 09:14 HyperionDreamer wrote: The answer is simple: No, it doesn't exist, and no, the bronze league is not better now than it ever was. I'm a masters zerg who often plays on a bronze account to go mass queen/void ray/scv/planetary and stuff like that, and it works just as much now as it did a year ago.
The improvement's there -- it's just not improvement at skills that have anything to do with surviving vs. a master league player who tanks their account. One example might be that compared to early season 1, a majority of bronze league players know on sight that banshees can't hit other air units. Big, community-wide improvement? Yes! A game-winner vs. anyone who's made it out of bronze league? No! (Seriously, in the early days I saw with my own eyes bronze league players lose games because they built banshees and didn't realize they weren't anti-air. This just doesn't happen today.)
If people in bronze league were getting better, they would be out of bronze. Statistics dictate as such.
Leagues are the equivalent of grading on a curve. Everyone who plays will get better as they play, but that doesn't mean a promotion unless they get better faster than the population. Statistics on this are hard to come by because there aren't any good population-wide metrics to evaluate individual performance at playing the game, only performance relative to other players.
OK, so they've figured out that banshee's aren't anti-air units. I don't think that's even relevant improvement, that's like saying they finally figured out that upgrades exist. Just because a high school student finds out about the existence of calculus, that doesn't mean he got any better at math.
See Gheed's blog on Bronze League to see what I would consider really strong evidence that a small small portion of bronze players actually care about improvement, most of them are there semi-permanently.
Everyone in here is completely ignoring the fact that just as players are leaving the ladder system, there are also new players coming into the system. Just because the overall trend is outwards, the law of large numbers dictates that the league a new player is placed in, assuming we can model it as a random variable, will be distributed in a similar bell curve to the existing players on the ladder. So people might get placed in diamond, gold, bronze, etc etc...
I would be willing to bet that the overall skill (if you can even find some metrics to quantify bronze skill) in bronze has remained relatively constant over time, where the overall skill in diamond/masters has slightly increased over the past few years of release.
My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote: My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
If you want to make a point based on when the game is FIRST RELEASED. SUREEE...
It is always easier to find justification (that they tried so hard but the league is much harder now). Their aptitude is a function of their attitude. If one thinks one cannot leave bronze due to external factors there they'll be.
On March 14 2012 09:14 HyperionDreamer wrote: This debate is pretty much an exact replication of the "does elo hell exist" debate that every moba community has.
The answer is simple: No, it doesn't exist, and no, the bronze league is not better now than it ever was. I'm a masters zerg who often plays on a bronze account to go mass queen/void ray/scv/planetary and stuff like that, and it works just as much now as it did a year ago.
If people in bronze league were getting better, they would be out of bronze. Statistics dictate as such.
Well, to my understanding, all the moba games are games where you are likely to be forced to play with other people, which seems to complicate things in my view (part of the reason I hate team games) How you interact with moba players on your team when you're in bronze league (or whatever mobas have) i assume is much different than the presumed teamwork in a master level game.
On March 14 2012 15:10 HyperionDreamer wrote: OK, so they've figured out that banshee's aren't anti-air units. I don't think that's even relevant improvement, that's like saying they finally figured out that upgrades exist. Just because a high school student finds out about the existence of calculus, that doesn't mean he got any better at math.
Huh? A high school student who starts learning about calculus is getting better at math. I don't get your point. (In my example, it's not like the bronze league players are learning that some units can't hit air and then deliberately making those units vs. air anyway, so it is a meaningful improvement, even if a small one.)
See Gheed's blog on Bronze League to see what I would consider really strong evidence that a small small portion of bronze players actually care about improvement, most of them are there semi-permanently.
Edit: I had said, incorrectly:
His blog seems to make it pretty clear that he's at the low end of bronze, so his anecdotes aren't necessarily a representative sample.
He pointed out I was wrong about that, so then I'd point out that his experiment is testing exactly one skill which doesn't come up that often, and with which you could probably catch a lot of players unaware up to gold league.
Bronze is a pretty wide league in terms of skill, compared to the middle leagues (in the sense that a top bronze player, playing normally, will take virtually 100% of their games off a bottom bronze player.) Some of those top bronze players are even on their way to being promoted, go figure.
Everyone in here is completely ignoring the fact that just as players are leaving the ladder system, there are also new players coming into the system.
Oh yeah, who?? Everyone I have ever met in real life who has touched the game bought it in the first couple months. I have not met one person, not one single person, who started in the last year. (I do know a couple who took breaks and came back, so to some extent those folks may be coming in near the bottom.)
I would be willing to bet that the overall skill (if you can even find some metrics to quantify bronze skill) in bronze has remained relatively constant over time, where the overall skill in diamond/masters has slightly increased over the past few years of release.
My sense is that bottom bronze is probably about the same. The active players in bronze who stand a good chance of promotion are certainly playing as well as silver players around the time of release. Meanwhile, silver, gold, platinum have kind of compressed in the middle -- I find that random fluctuation in my win rate has me oscillating between silver, gold, and platinum opponents, which tells me that high silver through low plat are a pretty narrow skill difference as measured by win likelihood (because of the rock/scissors/paper effect of complementary skills that came up earlier on this page.) That entire range are pretty much where low plat were after the introduction of master league, at least based on the macro you would see looking at old replays.
Meanwhile, I have no personal basis to guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if diamond and up had stretched out like you suggest.
On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote: My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
It is always easier to find justification (that they tried so hard but the league is much harder now). Their aptitude is a function of their attitude. If one thinks one cannot leave bronze due to external factors there they'll be.
This thread wasn't about bronze people complaining they can get out. It was about trying to meet and have fun with other eternal bronze players. It got highjacked by people insulting bronze players for being bronze players, treating them like some kind of idiots, and displaying a severe lack of respect and incredibly bad manners (a good example being Gheed). I am merely trying to demonstrate that most bronze players are fully functional people, no more stupid than masters might be, and for some wiser than many.
His blog seems to make it pretty clear that he's at the low end of bronze, so his anecdotes aren't necessarily a representative sample.
I would suggest you read my blog more carefully before making assertions based on the content within it. If you are going to use it as a basis for argument, which I'm not sure you should, at least take the time to read all of it.
In my previous blogs, I discussed my descent to what I had imagined must have been the deepest depths of the North American ladder. The longer I played, though, the more I realized I was not being completely accurate. I have, it seems, barely scraped the surface of just one of the many hells encapsulated within the bronze league. Normally, I scoff when someone describes themselves as "high gold," or "high silver," thinking them braggarts who fancy themselves better than they really are, but I can't think of a better way to describe my own preeminent position within my league. I am, as much as it pains me to say it, "high bronze."
When I first began worker rushing and my MMR settled, I noticed I would play almost exclusively against bronze leaguers. Now, I'm facing a silver leaguer or above in about one of every four matches.
In the more recent ones, I attempted to find "bronze hell," but in the end there is no bronze hell. Bronze is hell.
Edit: I just got a second account to play real games on, and after 6 months of nothing but worker rushing I got placed in platinum, the league I used to be in. So much for the player base having dramatically improved.
On March 14 2012 15:58 lazyitachi wrote: If you want to make a point based on when the game is FIRST RELEASED. SUREEE...
Well, that's what the leagues getting better "over time" means. Nobody said this was a fast process or a wholesale revolution in bronze league play.
I'd make the observation that the SC2 skill range is so incredibly wide that a top bronze player can greatly improve their win rate vs. mid bronze players while leaving their own win rate pegged at exactly zero vs. gold players and up. Pit those players against each other, and the mid bronze player would say the top bronze is getting much better, while the gold player will say "nope, he's still awful."
Anyway, I'm happily sitting here arguing that top bronze has improved somewhat without any motivation to use it as an excuse for anything, since I haven't been in bronze since S1.
I'll also agree that someone actively working to improve who's stuck in bronze after playing regularly for a solid year probably is missing something very, very important. That doesn't mean they haven't improved in certain ways despite that.
On March 14 2012 16:10 Gheed wrote: I would suggest you read my blog more carefully before making assertions based on the content within it. If you are going to use it as a basis for argument, which I'm not sure you should, at least take the time to read all of it.
Sorry, I did read that, and I forgot it. (I did just update my post to reflect this, thanks.) Your experiment still isn't really a representative survey of bronze league play because you're testing exactly one skill which is explicitly not a factor in the vast majority of games (knowing that a-moving onto the ground vs. a worker rush is likely to be a guaranteed win.)
The thrust of my argument, though, is that if your base skill level is diamond or master league, you may be completely incapable of seeing the differences between different levels of skill in the bronze league because they all look horrible to you. The only way to measure that would be to pit all those players against each other and see who beats whom, and with what win percentages.
On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote: My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
It is always easier to find justification (that they tried so hard but the league is much harder now). Their aptitude is a function of their attitude. If one thinks one cannot leave bronze due to external factors there they'll be.
This thread wasn't about bronze people complaining they can get out. It was about trying to meet and have fun with other eternal bronze players. It got highjacked by people insulting bronze players for being bronze players, treating them like some kind of idiots, and displaying a severe lack of respect and incredibly bad manners (a good example being Gheed). I am merely trying to demonstrate that most bronze players are fully functional people, no more stupid than masters might be, and for some wiser than many.
I am arguing that permabronze are there because of their mentality. But let's be honest, we do expect the average intelligence of each league to increase the higher it is... No?
On March 14 2012 16:22 lazyitachi wrote: But let's be honest, we do expect the average intelligence of each league to increase the higher it is... No?
No, because Starcraft 2 is not a test of intelligence. It's a test of game knowledge, muscle memory, reflexes, and multitasking. Intelligence certainly helps, and I feel that overall the game appeals to smart people, but there are extremely intelligent people in the low leagues who just don't care about improving and people in the top leagues who just aren't that smart but happen to have gotten very good at the game.
I would say that the complexity of the game appeals to bright people, which helps explain the much different community vs. various other types of games that are more about reflexes and less about problem-solving, but I doubt there's a really strong trend in intelligence vs. league.
I would say intelligence of the game? perhaps. General intelligence I'd have to disagree.
Seeing the quality level of posts since my last I would have to assume that nobody really bothered to read my post other than lysenko. I do admit it was rather long and perhaps should have made a tldr version, oh well live and learn. All this talk about bronze league makes me very curious to experience it again. Oh well, don't own a time machine.
Im one of those players who is stuck in bronze despite playing regularly (I watch day9 ocasionally, I watch a lot of VODS but no too many replays). I think I have definitly improved in the last year, but the rest of people seems to improve faster than I do. I have tried to stick with a build (1 barraks expand) and improve my macro, but my multitasking is really bad and if I ever try to micro, I find myself suddenly floating on 1k minerals. These are replays for the last 2 games I played, against protoss (win) and against zerg (lost).
Could somebody help with something? I know that I have A LOT to work on, Im just plain horrible (at one moment in the vs zerg game, If i remember correctly, I think I missclicked and turn a CC into a planetary inside my main. At first I thought not to post THAT replay, its a little more embarrasing, but I decided to be sincere and post just the two latest games that I have played. These 2 are from yesterday). But my question is: is my gameplay equally bad in all aspects?? Or is there a singularity, ONE THING that is fundamentally wrong for some who has been playing for more than a year now? I like the game and I play for fun, but when you know how the ladder works, its a little frustrating to still be in the low 20% after playing that much. I really would apreciate if some one could watch a replay (and sorry for the bad english!)
On March 14 2012 16:33 milodon wrote: But my question is: is my gameplay equally bad in all aspects?? Or is there a singularity, ONE THING that is fundamentally wrong for some who has been playing for more than a year now?
Many would argue I'm in no position to talk, since I'm having my own problems executing in the game too, but if we're talking about getting out of bronze, I can offer a few thoughts that might be useful.
I think looking for the one magic thing that will fix everything is usually not realistic. What you should do is pick a thing that you can see you aren't optimal at and practice that one thing. You'll find that your games probably get worse, because your attention on that detail will at first block out other things to which you have probably been paying sufficient attention before, but as you practice your chosen thing to work on will become easier to manage with less attention.
Based on looking at your replays, I notice that you are cutting workers pretty early and often leaving CCs idle. In the first game (which you won) you cut workers at 40 or so (can't recall the exact number) and built more production buildings than you could afford. In the second game you did better on that, but you still stopped making workers after about 55. I'm not that familiar with Terran, so someone more experienced may have to chime in on this, but I suspect you probably want to be pushing 75-ish workers on three bases as your ideal place to be before you stop making them. More than that and you'll start eating into your max army size too much.
When you manage to keep your CCs making workers basically 100% of the time, you'll start to find that you have trouble spending all your money, because you have fewer production buildings and more money. At that point, you'll probably want to work on your building timings and keeping your production buildings 100% busy, which will help.
Anyway, those two games looked a lot stronger on both sides in raw econ than the bronze league I remember, so to anyone who says the skill level in bronze isn't increasing, I'd say you're probably wrong. (I played probably eight weeks in bronze in S1 without seeing more than a handful of people make a 3rd base at all. Those are qualitatively different games than what we were playing back then.)
On March 14 2012 09:14 HyperionDreamer wrote: This debate is pretty much an exact replication of the "does elo hell exist" debate that every moba community has.
The answer is simple: No, it doesn't exist, and no, the bronze league is not better now than it ever was. I'm a masters zerg who often plays on a bronze account to go mass queen/void ray/scv/planetary and stuff like that, and it works just as much now as it did a year ago.
If people in bronze league were getting better, they would be out of bronze. Statistics dictate as such.
No, that's not how ladder works. If people in bronze were getting better, the overall standard in bronze would increase, which I suspect it has(silver and gold certainly have). You probably don't notice this as a masters zerg player, who incidentally is contributing to the stagnation of bronze by smurfing there.
For a long time, I just couldn't win games, in bronze league, against AI, anyone. It was very stressful and as a result I played no Starcraft for at least 6 months. During that time, however, I watched Day[9].
At first I was watching because I really, really, really wanted to be winning more matches, but as time went on, I just started ENJOYING myself. Watching games was fun, analyzing games was fun. Around November, I started playing again. Firstly as my BW Protoss before realizing I loved playing Terran. Switching races was the best thing I could have done, because I was playing Protoss with my BW mindset instead of with the new fun mindset I had gained from watching pro games and just silly games.
Fast forward two months and I'm still in bronze, but playing gold leaguers 2/5 times and the rest being silver. I'm having heaps of fun and winning 50-60% of the time. What league I'm in no longer really matters, now I just think about how much fun I have playing the game. Hell, even replays are fun to watch now. :D
@interpolarity: I started playing 1 year and a half, i think, first like 1 hour almost every day for like 8-9 months, then I stopped for like 3-4 months, and since january I have been playing 1.5-2 hous every day.
@lysenko: thanks for watching the replays and for the comentary! I really thing cutting workers too early is one of the biggest problems, also Im really bad in transfering SCVs to expansions (when the game goes beyond 3 bases, I usually make a mess). Watching my own replays, I have seen that a lot of times my natural is never really saturated (ever). I will try to focus on that on my next games. One thing in that I can see a small progress is in my TvZ, I used to lost all the time (I mean really always), and now Im at least 50/50. I have another question, when do you think the knowledge of the maps begins being important? I really dont know very well the maps architecture, and I have to confess that when the casters talk in the VODS about a map being imbalanced or being better for a race, I really dont know what they are talking about. I spend a lot of time in liquipedia, but there is not a lot of information on maps there (correct me if Im wrong?). Do you think that map knowledge is important for people below plat?
On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote: My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
It is always easier to find justification (that they tried so hard but the league is much harder now). Their aptitude is a function of their attitude. If one thinks one cannot leave bronze due to external factors there they'll be.
This thread wasn't about bronze people complaining they can get out. It was about trying to meet and have fun with other eternal bronze players. It got highjacked by people insulting bronze players for being bronze players, treating them like some kind of idiots, and displaying a severe lack of respect and incredibly bad manners (a good example being Gheed). I am merely trying to demonstrate that most bronze players are fully functional people, no more stupid than masters might be, and for some wiser than many.
There is no such thing as an eternal bronze player. Anyone who thinks they are eternally bronze (barring some extreme physical or mental disability) quite frankly IS an idiot. And how on earth do you manage to deduce that Gheed is being BM? He is worker rushing people on ladder (aka fucking giving them free wins), and even helps people who manage to lose. It's the people he plays that display "a severe lack of respect and incredibly bad manners".
Map architecture is very important as it dictates the power and viability of strategies. Smaller chokes promote defensive and macro play, while large open areas are more susceptible to flanking, making large mobile armies much stronger (zerg). I am awful at terran so I won't be able to provide you any constructive advice other than very general things, but I'm not at a place where I can view your replays at this time.
On March 14 2012 17:31 milodon wrote: I have another question, when do you think the knowledge of the maps begins being important?
Again, the best possible answer on this is probably found above my level, but a little map knowledge is hugely helpful. I'd strongly suggest looking up the ladder maps and identifying these things:
Is it a 2 or 4 player map?
Important because on 2 player maps you instantly know where your opponent is. You're also going to see more super-early blind rushes on these maps. Currently only the new maps, Korhal Compound LE and Cloud Kingdom LE, are 2 player, the rest are 4.
Are near spawns allowed on the map?
In the last couple seasons, near spawns have been disabled on certain 4-player maps (currently Shakuras Plateau, Shattered Temple, Metalopolis, I think that's it), which means you can rule out that your opponent will be at that location. I see a lot of people scouting these locations first anyway in my games, which loses them time.
Where are my entrances, including back doors?
In 3v3 and 4v4, I often waste precious game time hunting around for the exits, or being surprised by enemy units coming in the back. Best to avoid this.
Where's my natural? Where would I plan to go 3rd or 4th? How would someone attack those places, and can I put my army in the way?
Think about where you'll expand and what you might have to do to defend those bases. Chances are, those locations dictate a certain region of the map where keeping your army is safer. Figure out where that is, and when you're not attacking, keep your army located defensively. It also helps to think about how you can deal with drops.
Also, on certain maps, the most easily defensible third has destructible rocks. It's not as annoying as Terran, since you should be making at least some units at all times, but as Zerg, I have to alter my build to take those down if I'm not defending an attack anyway.
I'd think that having an answer to these questions on each ladder map will mean spending less attention figuring them out in game.
On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote: My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
It is always easier to find justification (that they tried so hard but the league is much harder now). Their aptitude is a function of their attitude. If one thinks one cannot leave bronze due to external factors there they'll be.
This thread wasn't about bronze people complaining they can get out. It was about trying to meet and have fun with other eternal bronze players. It got highjacked by people insulting bronze players for being bronze players, treating them like some kind of idiots, and displaying a severe lack of respect and incredibly bad manners (a good example being Gheed). I am merely trying to demonstrate that most bronze players are fully functional people, no more stupid than masters might be, and for some wiser than many.
There is no such thing as an eternal bronze player. Anyone who thinks they are eternally bronze (barring some extreme physical or mental disability) quite frankly IS an idiot. And how on earth do you manage to deduce that Gheed is being BM? He is worker rushing people on ladder (aka fucking giving them free wins), and even helps people who manage to lose. It's the people he plays that display "a severe lack of respect and incredibly bad manners".
In my dictionary, publicly humiliating people is not really a display of good manners. Actually, I would say that it is pretty sensible to qualify it as bad manners. I don't want to dedicate time to your demeaning statement about eternal bronze people being either "idiots" or suffering from some kind of "extreme disability".
On March 14 2012 15:36 freakhill wrote: My point is that this guy, diamond at the time, wouldn't reach silver nowadays. He would be bronze. Btw your previous argument made no sens whatsoever.
No he wouldn't. They play awful, but they partly have to because its on Steppes of War. Also they build workers, don't get supply blocked too much and they don't have 2k minerals after 6 minutes and they know basic safe openings which don't die to the most basic cheese. Means they are at least silver/gold, even if they play exactly like they did in the replay. They are just trying their best to react to the opponent on Steppes of War, its actually a pretty basic game from the first season if you're not a great but a solid player.
You probably don't remember how it felt to play on maps like Steppes of War or Incineration Zone without all the patch changes that we have nowadays, in days when barracks could be built before supply depot and reaper speed without factory, with faster bunker building time and faster zealot building time.
You just had to watch out for different things. Doesn't mean that the game was easier, it was just different. And these guys could still win against most bronze players just because they have more stuff, even if they build the wrong stuff at the wrong time.
I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote: I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it.
Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really.
Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack).
On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote: I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it.
Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really.
Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack).
What I meant by "I am good" I meant I am good for the league I'm in. Of course I don't think I'm any where near even platinum league good. People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie. If I'm winning 90% of my matches (which I am atm) in my current league then how am I suppose to get better while I wait to get out of bronze? Then go to silver or gold and find out that I suck and possibly go back to bronze.
On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote: I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it.
Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really.
Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack).
What I meant by "I am good" I meant I am good for the league I'm in. Of course I don't think I'm any where near even platinum league good. People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie. If I'm winning 90% of my matches (which I am atm) in my current league then how am I suppose to get better while I wait to get out of bronze? Then go to silver or gold and find out that I suck and possibly go back to bronze.
If you win 90% of your games you are fine and you should soon play against silver/gold level players and move on even further
On March 14 2012 19:10 Paint4blood wrote: People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie.
I'm in gold at the moment, you can feel free to add me and hit me up for games. My ID is Lysenko.545.
I do play against silver every now and then and have only lost once out of about the little over a hand full of times I've played against a silver player. Also, I have played against a gold and barely lost to him. We both base traded but I was able to save one of my orbitals and float it behind some rocks. He only had a few DT's and one archon and I lost because I didn't put detection at the rocks and eventually ran out of scans.
I was actually somewhat sympathetic for Bronze players before, but I was up early this morning trying to find distractions from studying for my comps and I read through all of Gheed's blog.
If you're in Bronze, you have no idea what the hell you're doing.
Until you start emulating people who do, as opposed to lying to yourself, you'll be stuck there. Forever.
On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote: I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
really i dont want to insult you or be mean. but when you are in bronze and you say you have good macro and micro you are wrong. if you have good macro, just macro your way to 200/200 and attack. IF you have good macro you will be in gold or platinum quick. otherwise your macro is not good
i think that bronze- gold players are just more focused on fun then on winning. as soon as you want to win no matter what you work harder on your flaws and that automatically brings you into plat or more. i think everyone can play good its just the mindset and bit of talent.
On March 14 2012 19:52 LightSpectra wrote: If you're in Bronze, you have no idea what the hell you're doing.
Look at the two replays posted for comments on the last page by the bronze player. The play has a lot of problems and a ton of opportunity for improvement but it's not the kind of unsalvageable mess you'd imagine from Gheed's blog. Remember he sees people only at their worst moment, dealing with a situation that requires an instant response that they rarely see.
I think it's funny all the Silver/Gold players saying "Oh ya, it's alot different now. The skill level is much better in these leagues than before". Sure, but he skill level has improved across all leagues. The difference between a Masters level player and a Bronze level player is probably even larger now than it was in the first seasons.
One of the big things I think holding people back is that kind of delusion that they "know the game" and are playing well, but just are stuck in their league. I have several friends like this. They memorize tons of builds (more than me, TBH), they repeat stuff they hear in casts, but they just don't really put that determined mindset into their play.
I think it's really more important to just keep hitting that "Find Match" button and speeding through the replays of the games you lost to find what went wrong.
I sometimes hop on my friend's accounts to check it out, and it's pretty obvious the difference (I'm mid-masters Zerg). You can pick apart the play at that level because it's very easy to see what the players are trying to do and what they're weak at. Usually they try and follow a strict build (don't deviate according to game conditions) and if you throw anything at them that is not standard, they fall apart.
On March 14 2012 18:19 Paint4blood wrote: I'm a bronze level player that is trying to get better. I understand the game, the mechanics, and I have good macro and decent micro. What I think players in bronze have a problem with is how to execute a build, meaning, when to apply pressure or when to bunker down and rebuild among other things. I'll be honest, I struggle with timings. I got my timings down up until I get my OC (terran player, doy). After that it ain't bad but far from perfect. Also I think me and my bronze homies need to learn what the meta game is all about.
I wouldn't focus too much on the strategy aspect. If you understand the game and have a decent grasp on which unit counters other units and what each unit does, how the tech paths look etc. you have enough knowledge to get out of bronze. Knowing good unit compositions and trying to mimic the pros is nice, but not even necessary really. There aren't bad units in SC2. Metagame is NONEXISTANT in bronze. It just doesn't exist, your opponents can do every weird shit from fun smurf planetary fortress rushing to mass hydra only builds. There is no metagame, its just the game, and bronze players are pretty bad at playing it. There's no other way to say it.
Now you need the mechanics. You can't have good macro in bronze. It is just not possible, don't think that you have "good macro". I'm mid masters, playing against GM players and I think my macro is bad. You are correct about learning timings of your own build, don't think too strict and don't be too harsh with yourself, just be aware of your mistakes and say to yourself that you will make it better in the next game. Don't say to yourself that you are good at something, because that means that you will neglect it in your analysis. Be proud of something you have accomplished, because you have every reason to do so, Starcraft is a hard game. But always see it as a work in progress, don't be too critical about it but just be aware of whats possible theoretically and what you did in reality. Another huge part of mechanics is being able to click with precision and to know all the hotkeys. I think thats the most crucial part if you want to get to platinum and diamond in no time. If you are comfortable with clicking each unit, if you can direct them where they should go very fast, if you can click on workers and build 4 buildings without needing 10 seconds to do it and without workers scattering everywhere you will sprint out of bronze. I think there was a day9 daily in which viewers sent replays and day9 watched them from their PoV and talked about what the camera should focus on, what you should focus on to improve to get better mechanics etc.. Every bronze player should watch it and just focus solely on improving in that regard (if they want to improve and not be stuck in bronze). Its the most important thing ever on every skill level really.
Learning how to execute a build is a nice way to learn the game, because it shows you whats possible in a well executed build and what you would have in one of your average bronze games. Just take a random build that has a timing attack at 9-10 minutes, compare the unit count a pro has and now try to mimic exactly what he was doing until you get the exact same unit count. I don't think its a necessary part of becoming better though, I never learned any BOs up to this day and I only do what I think is reasonable. If you reach a certain point its nice to just spy good players in tournaments and copy their timings (because usually they have a lot of thought and practice in their timings) to see how it works out. I don't know. It can be helpful to learn builds I guess and its a good measurement of how good you are (if you can keep up macroing until minute 9-10 and have the same amount of units as a pro player at that point you are doing fairly well I guess, usually you should get out of bronze with such a timing attack).
What I meant by "I am good" I meant I am good for the league I'm in. Of course I don't think I'm any where near even platinum league good. People say the best way to get better is to play people who are better than you, but I find this really difficult when anyone above bronze won't play against a bronzie. If I'm winning 90% of my matches (which I am atm) in my current league then how am I suppose to get better while I wait to get out of bronze? Then go to silver or gold and find out that I suck and possibly go back to bronze.
Play 10 games a day for a week. If you still have 90% win ratio and haven't been promoted, mail Blizzard because there's obviously something wrong with the system unless your MMR is just... beyond saving.
Replay Replay Replay. Without it it is impossible to understand at what level you mean "I have good macro and decent micro." I have played since beta and I can honestly tell you I have quite subpar macro and now that I'm linking from asia to NA serv I can't even talk about micro. Please provide a replay so people can objectify your claims.
On March 14 2012 20:13 muzzy wrote: I think it's funny all the Silver/Gold players saying "Oh ya, it's alot different now. The skill level is much better in these leagues than before". Sure, but he skill level has improved across all leagues. The difference between a Masters level player and a Bronze level player is probably even larger now than it was in the first seasons.
I'm probably one of those gold people you're referring to, and I say of course you're right, that's why those perma-bronze people are still bronze. If you merely keep up with your peers you won't get promoted.
I suspect, based on the nature of the mistakes I've seen people make over the seasons and my experiences with the matchmaking system, that plat has probably stayed about the same while silver through gold have compressed below it and diamond and up have spread out. in fifteen games I can go from playing silver players to plat and back again and they're all reasonably even matchups (though my odds are maybe 60/40 vs silver and 40/60 vs plat.). That certainly wasn't the case a few seasons ago at the same spot on the ladder.
Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
I, myself, am a Top 20 Dia and I consider myself as a pretty bad player with bad micro and bad macro..(I often play against low masters and my win rate against them is somewhat 50% but i have absolutely no chance of winning when i meet high-mid-masters) I often play 1v1 custom games and often meet bronze-gold players as well. The skill level of bronze-gold has improved significantly, but other leagues have improved as well. The biggest problems with bronze-gold players are game knowledge, execution, mechanics...well everything. And I believe EVERYONE is capable of reaching platinum with proper training and if they go serious about it. A friend of mine, who started in silver league (he is very bad at gaming), is now in platinum enjoying his games. He played less than 10 hours a week but we met up every week and I gave him some advice how to play the game. He said he would have stayed in silver forever if I hadnt helped him. My point is, some players can reach masters on their own (I think top dia is my limit without the help of better players) while others need some help to get further. For instance, I cheesed him multiple times in many different ways and told him how to block certain types of cheeses, how to block a 4gate rush, how to punish players not walling off as a zerg, what to do when you dont have detection and a DT or a cloaked banshee is in your base, etc. Nobody is a forever bronze or silver unless you are physically or mentally disabled, you just need the proper guide to play the game better :D
To be honest, the worse you consider yourself but you keep practicing the more you will improve.
If you think your macro is way better than it should be for your league, chances are that you will not be improving your macro during your games. In bronze "good macro" for bronze is still really really bad and you could improve it in a hundred ways.
Also good macro in bronze might just be you taking risks without understanding anything. Could be the situation where you say "i always win macro games" but you go 16 hatch 17 pool and blindly make drones (my plat friend does this... curse him). This is a false sense of thinking your macro is good. Real good macro is doing a lot with what you have not taking dumb risks.
Pick out mistakes in your play, if you cannot see mistakes you will not get better. Compare yourself to players better than you and see WHY they are better, this is how you will improve.
On March 14 2012 19:52 LightSpectra wrote: If you're in Bronze, you have no idea what the hell you're doing.
Look at the two replays posted for comments on the last page by the bronze player. The play has a lot of problems and a ton of opportunity for improvement but it's not the kind of unsalvageable mess you'd imagine from Gheed's blog. Remember he sees people only at their worst moment, dealing with a situation that requires an instant response that they rarely see.
Just echoing this. I have played 450 games in silver and gold EU. I have seen ONE worker rush. And technically that's a lie, because the guy quit before I got to see his workers, as he'd scouted me last out of three spawn positions. If I saw 6 workers streaming into my base at whatever the usual time is, I might well be thrown off enough to lose the game. And I'd probably never ever see it again.
Gheed's little exercise definitely proves the average bad player will lose to a worker rush. You could probably extrapolate from that that bronze players don't have fast reactions to unexpected situations. I'd definitely support this notion, it explains a massive amount of their difficulties. You can't extrapolate from this that "bronze players have no idea what they're doing", because they don't instantly recognise or know the response to an absurdly rare strat.
Ok, so fo those that didnt see my post a few pages back i'm completly new, even to rts.
So had an hour for some 1vs1 last night, and since i had read that macro is good way to learn I had checked out Taerix guide. As some might remember i hadnt won a game before.
Following the start build was both easier and harder then i thought. Before i used to queue units to buy extra time, but since i need to elarn i never do now, even if i notice I'm freaking out.
So first game.....Ok, i fucked up badly. Completly messed up, even tho i had written down on a piece of paper the start of it. And got wiped out by stalkers.
Well, I knew i had screwed up, and pretty much with what, so BACK ON THE HORSE!
Next game. Oh zerg. This will be fun....well, not, he was lovering his mmr.
Next game. O....well, exactly the same as above. Dammit, will i ever get any training?
Yes, yes i did.
So its terran vs terrann in teh 4th game. Since I wont say anything bad about him, and I really enjoyed the game, I will use his name. His name was YANOZ.
I managed to follow the build plan decently up to his first poke, where I missed out soem builds and stuff. But not anythign major.
Problems arose when I was on 3rd base had about 6-7 barracks, and no queing. I was starting to freak out. Not building enough supply depots, missing building new troops when I sent troops forward or exanding to the 4th and so on, and see that supply go up...
Anyway, I was focusing on marines and marauders, as the idea of it was, but YANOZ made tanks and air units. So I had to get some defense up, and built 3 starports and soem hellions.
I decided to attack. if elt that the more i drag it out at that point the more i will screw up.
I get to his base, wipes out everything except his CC that he lifts and flies off with. At the same time he has attacked my base and I tries to get my troops back to save what i can. It doesnt work. Luckily, my 5th base was a bit off, so he had some travel time to get there. I only had like 10 marines there and some workers, so I knew I was lost.
However, what do i see? I have 2 vikings that ive missed to get home from his base, and i knew in which direction his base had went so I finds it. Can swear it cant have been more then a few secs before iw as gonan be wiped out. But thye managed to get it down and I won.
Game took about 35 min, so was imo good training. Had chance to train at building lots of stuf at the same time, and was overall a pleasant experience. Also, chatted some with YANOZ after and he had also had a good time.
However, the statistics after had 1 very abd thing. AVerage unspent supplies:....5280
I keep hearing about ppl getting shit in and after games from other players. I might ahve been jsut lucky, but never had anything like it. MIght be that in bronze people dont take things as deadly serious at higher ladders. Or that most have a casual approach to it.
Oh, and got my 3win hot streak achivment since the 2 before had left^^
Anyway, just wanted to share a pleasant experience
Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00.
Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00.
and yet sc2gear says zimson is gold.. sounds like a cool story. So your measure of skill is executing an all-in build that cuts scv production? I wonder why you even comment.
On March 14 2012 16:02 Lysenko wrote: Huh? A high school student who starts learning about calculus is getting better at math. I don't get your point. (In my example, it's not like the bronze league players are learning that some units can't hit air and then deliberately making those units vs. air anyway, so it is a meaningful improvement, even if a small one.)
No, there's a difference between learning something exists and actually learning to do it. You said that bronze players have learned that banshees don't hit air units. That's learning about existence. There's a huge difference between that and actually learning to properly do a 2port banshee allin.
I don't really see the need to respond to the Gheed stuff, since he's already personally responded and basically confirmed my points exactly.
Oh yeah, who?? Everyone I have ever met in real life who has touched the game bought it in the first couple months. I have not met one person, not one single person, who started in the last year. (I do know a couple who took breaks and came back, so to some extent those folks may be coming in near the bottom.)
Anyone who buys starcraft 2 is defined as "coming in" to the system. I'd look up the overall sales of starcraft 2, because I'm sure that it's sold more than a few thousand copies per month.
My sense is that bottom bronze is probably about the same. The active players in bronze who stand a good chance of promotion are certainly playing as well as silver players around the time of release. Meanwhile, silver, gold, platinum have kind of compressed in the middle -- I find that random fluctuation in my win rate has me oscillating between silver, gold, and platinum opponents, which tells me that high silver through low plat are a pretty narrow skill difference as measured by win likelihood (because of the rock/scissors/paper effect of complementary skills that came up earlier on this page.) That entire range are pretty much where low plat were after the introduction of master league, at least based on the macro you would see looking at old replays.
Meanwhile, I have no personal basis to guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if diamond and up had stretched out like you suggest.
I'm quite sure that diamond and up has stretched - there is so much influence on those leagues because of progaming. So your win rate is fluctuating your league placement, that's how the ladder system works. I can tell you from doing occasional coaching that silver and plat are absolutely light years apart in terms of game understanding. Plat players have an actual idea what they are doing, say a protoss player who understands colossus engagements in pvp or a zerg who understands mobility when going muta ling. Most silver players build marauders. And only marauders.
I also challenge the assumption that if you play a lot, you're getting better. I fundamentally disagree with this - if you are not actually practicing the right things and consciously trying to improve, you will remain stagnant. I think it took me 6 months of chillin as top diamond before I broke master league, because I wasn't actually trying to get better. I was just sitting there trying the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.
There's no way that 99% of bronze players actually know what to do in order to improve. I honestly think Gheed's (awesome) blog is the best evidence that I can give, because I'm not in bronze myself.
On March 15 2012 01:18 HyperionDreamer wrote: So your win rate is fluctuating your league placement, that's how the ladder system works. I can tell you from doing occasional coaching that silver and plat are absolutely light years apart in terms of game understanding.
What I'm saying is that running into silver (when I lose six or seven games) and plat (when I win six or seven games) is a new thing, like since maybe season 5. It wasn't like that before. It's possible that it's a wide MMR range and fewer players in that range are playing so I'm just getting the best matches I can get, but it's more likely that they've tightened up the MMR ranges in those leagues.
On March 15 2012 01:18 HyperionDreamer wrote: You said that bronze players have learned that banshees don't hit air units. That's learning about existence. There's a huge difference between that and actually learning to properly do a 2port banshee allin.
And I followed it up by saying they'd integrated it into their play.
I don't really see the need to respond to the Gheed stuff, since he's already personally responded and basically confirmed my points exactly.
Not really, only thing he confirmed is that he's top bronze right now with the worker rush thing. I already explained that that's a very strange, narrow window into what's going on in bronze, and won't tell you much, because it's catching people in a situation they haven't practiced at all. Even he said it may not make sense to make an argument based on his blogs.
Anyone who buys starcraft 2 is defined as "coming in" to the system. I'd look up the overall sales of starcraft 2, because I'm sure that it's sold more than a few thousand copies per month.
I seriously doubt that. It's not currently in the top 100 video games sold:
If you care to pay for their "pro" account to look up actual numbers, go for it.
Edit: It sold 57k units in 2011 in the US. Since it's dropping by about 80% a year, expect it to sell under 1k units per month this year. And many of those are probably second accounts.
Well... Destiny says you can mass queen all the way to Platinum. + Show Spoiler +
(And if you're CombatEX you can cannon rush all the way to Grandmaster)
IDK if Destiny is right or that's just because when you're Destiny you can do anything to platinum, and I have no way of proving to myself because I play Protoss.
What I do know is that I went from Bronze to gold on pure macro and things I learned from BW like storm drop, probe harass, etc. I didn't learn any legit builds, not even 4 gate, until I was gold. After my cyber core I always freestyled.
Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00.
and yet sc2gear says zimson is gold.. sounds like a cool story. So your measure of skill is executing an all-in build that cuts scv production? I wonder why you even comment.
Its a measure of smoothly executing a build order to the point where its barely distinguishable from a presumably much higher level player. Just because it cuts SCVs doesn't really change the difficulty of it one way or another. I can't think of a better way to benchmark someone's basic macro ability.
He was in bronze when I played him, can't say how or why. Since I'm not in bronze myself, its only the up and comers I'm likely to see. Besides, I'd thought you'd be happy to find evidence of someone using solid build order execution to get out of bronze
Honestly I stopped reading after you starting talking about "accepting the fact that you are a bronze level player". Personally I hate being bad at anything and I'll work as hard as necessary to be good at anything, no matter what it is.
On that note, I pretty much guarantee that I could get anyone over 12 years old out of bronze EASILY if they actually wanted to be.
On that note, I pretty much guarantee that I could get anyone over 12 years old out of bronze EASILY if they actually wanted to be.
That's a fairly weak guarantee, because as soon as someone fails to get out of bronze under your coaching, you can turn around and say "oh well, he must not have *wanted* to get out of bronze". Its an easy to use escape clause. No one could actually prove whether it was a lack of will or a lack of ability, even if the former is more likely.
For all that though, I suspect the group of people who both got pro coaching and are still in bronze is quite small, if not non-existent.
Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00.
and yet sc2gear says zimson is gold.. sounds like a cool story. So your measure of skill is executing an all-in build that cuts scv production? I wonder why you even comment.
Its a measure of smoothly executing a build order to the point where its barely distinguishable from a presumably much higher level player. Just because it cuts SCVs doesn't really change the difficulty of it one way or another. I can't think of a better way to benchmark someone's basic macro ability.
He was in bronze when I played him, can't say how or why. Since I'm not in bronze myself, its only the up and comers I'm likely to see. Besides, I'd thought you'd be happy to find evidence of someone using solid build order execution to get out of bronze
It only takes 60 real life apm sitting in base literally staring at his army to get out of bronze into gold.
Thus if this is all it takes then I don't expect permabronze to be any good at all. Which shows that if such a simple execution is all it takes then they are doing something wrong to still be in bronze.
Two replays there, both are executing a 1-1-1 build. One has 24 SCVs, 14 marines, 3 tanks, 2 banshees and 1 hellion at 9:00. One has 23 SCVs,14 marines, 2 tanks, 2 vikings and 1 raven at 9:00.
and yet sc2gear says zimson is gold.. sounds like a cool story. So your measure of skill is executing an all-in build that cuts scv production? I wonder why you even comment.
Its a measure of smoothly executing a build order to the point where its barely distinguishable from a presumably much higher level player. Just because it cuts SCVs doesn't really change the difficulty of it one way or another. I can't think of a better way to benchmark someone's basic macro ability.
He was in bronze when I played him, can't say how or why. Since I'm not in bronze myself, its only the up and comers I'm likely to see. Besides, I'd thought you'd be happy to find evidence of someone using solid build order execution to get out of bronze
It only takes 60 real life apm sitting in base literally staring at his army to get out of bronze into gold.
Thus if this is all it takes then I don't expect permabronze to be any good at all. Which shows that if such a simple execution is all it takes then they are doing something wrong to still be in bronze.
This isn't completely true.
When I was permabronze it was more MMR-related than me being bad, which is why I stayed in silver for a grand total of 72 hours before promotion. When I started SC2 i didn't play practice matches so my placements were horribad (although I did win 2 because other people are retarded) and it took me a while to get my MMR back to acceptable levels.
Bronze level still confuses me, but on my 2nd account I play random in diamond, and I usually have a lot more fun on that account than my main 'toss master account.
But good for you for having fun, it's a video game, it really is okay to have fun playing and not obssess about improving/jumping leagues. In fact that's probably normal and the obsession with improvement is a bit odd.
On March 15 2012 04:49 Neo.NEt wrote: Honestly I stopped reading after you starting talking about "accepting the fact that you are a bronze level player". Personally I hate being bad at anything and I'll work as hard as necessary to be good at anything, no matter what it is.
On that note, I pretty much guarantee that I could get anyone over 12 years old out of bronze EASILY if they actually wanted to be.
Theres a 12 year old masters player who streams with a webcam so u know its legit xD
No offence but it has always baffled me how you can play a fair bit and still be in bronsze. I'm no master-player by any means but when I first started out I sucked for a few games but once I realized there was something called expanding at an appropriate timing; no more bronze.
Make scvs/drones/probes and get out of the bronze, it really works... As i noticed every bronze player just make a few of then, like deciding to make rax at 9 supply and expand behind it
But if theres a Bronze Z out there really trying to improve his game, im free for some Free-Coaching (high diamond here) ... If some1 really wants to take the offer, just pm me (EU server)
On March 15 2012 02:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Well... Destiny says you can mass queen all the way to Platinum. + Show Spoiler +
(And if you're CombatEX you can cannon rush all the way to Grandmaster)
IDK if Destiny is right or that's just because when you're Destiny you can do anything to platinum, and I have no way of proving to myself because I play Protoss.
What I do know is that I went from Bronze to gold on pure macro and things I learned from BW like storm drop, probe harass, etc. I didn't learn any legit builds, not even 4 gate, until I was gold. After my cyber core I always freestyled.
You can go from bronze to platinum by building only stalkers. The reason Destiny used queens is because they are the only low tier unit which can shoot air for Z, the same feat is very easily done with toss using stalkers or terran using marines.
I think the most important thing for when you first start playing the game, is too take in everything you hear and apply it as a strict ruleset. If day9 tells you to never stop making workers, literally never stop making workers. It's also important to imitate pro payers so that you can get a feel for build orders, unit compositions, and general gameplay.
The big problem that some of you are missing is that a bronze player isn't a homogeneous thing. So you can't really make statements that cover all bronze players. There is everything from complete newbs that doesn't know about the hotkey function to people like the ones described in the original post.
Let's face it - progress up the ladder requires not only skill, but also time. Not all of us has time for this. This progress is slowed even more when 50 % of the time you are putting in is dedicated to doing funday mondays and cheese (because just playing normal is boring). I'm in bronze because of this, but I have beaten diamond level players.
Also, the lower divisions have changed a lot since SC2 was released.
Just watched some gold/platin replays from a year ago. PF´s in the main, mass cannons without units, 10 roach allins at 15 minutes, expanding right when the last main-mineral is gone(really no joke).
Then i watched some bronze replays from toady and i saw 1 gate expands, Banshee openings and 1 1 1.
The execution, multitasking and gameplanning might be as bad as a year ago but the builds are way more developed and make so much more sense. The lower leagues are not nearly the same as at release, no shame to be silver or gold.
On March 19 2012 22:34 TheGreenMachine wrote: Hey guys you can watch a stream of a player whos in bronze. He does a little bit of commentary and you can see he really wants to win.
His faults are obvious to you but probably not to him.
Enjoy this journey into the inner mind of the bronze!!
Like I wrote earlier, this is not the general state of the bronze league, and statements like the one highlighted above are false. Correct statement would be: "Enjoy this journey into the inner mind of this single bronze player!!"
On March 19 2012 22:34 TheGreenMachine wrote: Hey guys you can watch a stream of a player whos in bronze. He does a little bit of commentary and you can see he really wants to win.
His faults are obvious to you but probably not to him.
Enjoy this journey into the inner mind of the bronze!!
Like I wrote earlier, this is not the general state of the bronze league, and statements like the one highlighted above are false. Correct statement would be: "Enjoy this journey into the inner mind of this single bronze player!!"
Hes a friend of mine who plays a lot of league of legends, world of warcraft, and other random games. Hes not bad at any of them but hes also not very good.
Ofcourse he is not dumb, he just doesn't know all of the little things that we starcraft players think of as a given. He does a double scv scout very often too .
On March 19 2012 21:43 Zythius wrote: The big problem that some of you are missing is that a bronze player isn't a homogeneous thing. So you can't really make statements that cover all bronze players. There is everything from complete newbs that doesn't know about the hotkey function to people like the ones described in the original post.
Let's face it - progress up the ladder requires not only skill, but also time. Not all of us has time for this. This progress is slowed even more when 50 % of the time you are putting in is dedicated to doing funday mondays and cheese (because just playing normal is boring). I'm in bronze because of this, but I have beaten diamond level players.
Also, the lower divisions have changed a lot since SC2 was released.
Another Bronze bragging about how good he is.
Let's be even more honest here. It took me less than 2 days of playing 2 hours a day (10 mins a game average?) to progress from bronze to silver for a smurf I had. If you have the macro-micro skills, even doing funday mondays and cheese will make you win the game.
Lower divisions never changed. Bronze is still a cluster of macro-less players who thinks that building workers every 10 in-game minutes works. Or some very weak cheese that can be easily deflected.
On March 19 2012 21:43 Zythius wrote: The big problem that some of you are missing is that a bronze player isn't a homogeneous thing. So you can't really make statements that cover all bronze players. There is everything from complete newbs that doesn't know about the hotkey function to people like the ones described in the original post.
Let's face it - progress up the ladder requires not only skill, but also time. Not all of us has time for this. This progress is slowed even more when 50 % of the time you are putting in is dedicated to doing funday mondays and cheese (because just playing normal is boring). I'm in bronze because of this, but I have beaten diamond level players.
Also, the lower divisions have changed a lot since SC2 was released.
I have about 45 wins in ladder since SC2 release, I'm in platinum. I have a full time job AND ladder anxiety and a girlfriend who really doesn't want me to play SC2 constantly. Trust me, you can blame a lot for not being an amazing SC2 player, but you can not blame time for the fact that you're in bronze. I play this game 1-2 hours a week on average, if even that and bronze is a joke if you have any idea what you're doing.
On March 19 2012 22:34 TheGreenMachine wrote: Hey guys you can watch a stream of a player whos in bronze. He does a little bit of commentary and you can see he really wants to win.
His faults are obvious to you but probably not to him.
Enjoy this journey into the inner mind of the bronze!!
From "more bad games" first game and I already saw huge problem as mind set.
"He doesn't have expansion"... Opponents don't always take natural expansion as their first expansion when playing bronze league (This is not what you see when watching GSL etc so don't assume).
How to fix this? Use 1-3 marines/scvs to patrol expansion spots. Just remember to replace them when they get killed.
On March 19 2012 21:43 Zythius wrote: The big problem that some of you are missing is that a bronze player isn't a homogeneous thing. So you can't really make statements that cover all bronze players. There is everything from complete newbs that doesn't know about the hotkey function to people like the ones described in the original post.
Let's face it - progress up the ladder requires not only skill, but also time. Not all of us has time for this. This progress is slowed even more when 50 % of the time you are putting in is dedicated to doing funday mondays and cheese (because just playing normal is boring). I'm in bronze because of this, but I have beaten diamond level players.
Also, the lower divisions have changed a lot since SC2 was released.
Another Bronze bragging about how good he is.
Let's be even more honest here. It took me less than 2 days of playing 2 hours a day (10 mins a game average?) to progress from bronze to silver for a smurf I had. If you have the macro-micro skills, even doing funday mondays and cheese will make you win the game.
Lower divisions never changed. Bronze is still a cluster of macro-less players who thinks that building workers every 10 in-game minutes works. Or some very weak cheese that can be easily deflected.
Always nice to start off with a good old Ad hominem ;-)
First of all, personal experience is not good grounds for generalization. And how can I confirm what you said about your smurf account? Secondly, do you attempt every single funday monday? And do you really commit to it, or do you just take a normal cookie cutter strategy and make the least possible changes to it?
I think the lower levels have changed. The reasoning behind this statement? The game has been out for some time, and people have learned a lot of stuff.
And you also need to lay off the general statements you make concerning a league you don't even play in. As I said, "bronze players" are not a homogeneous group. Some of them might think building workers every 10 minutes is viable, but it does not apply to all bronze players (and this makes your statement is incorrect).
20% of active players are in bronze league. This rule does not change, so it's absolutely normal if someone stays in bronze forever. If all bronze players get promoted or quit, all silvers must turn into bronze. Diamond players should be happy about bronze players, because without bronze there is no diamond.
I've just watched a gold-level NA zerg and holy sh*t this guy was BAD. He was happily floating 6k minerals at 110 food and I don't believe I've seen a single inject in 5 minutes time. He actually won. If that's how gold looks on NA, then I'd hate to see the bronze.
I'm starting to think that the problem might have less to do with bronze and more with the american server...
I very rarely play ladder as my nerves are atrocious and I forget the simplest of things. As a zerg player I always forget to scout as much as possible, morphing overseers for those obvious DT rushes and put down creep. Basically, I suck. I much prefer to watch than play anyway, yes I'm that fucking weird
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Statements like this are inherently false. You could say "low masters on NA", maybe. But "masters" encompasses everyone from low masters baddies to professional players.
On March 08 2012 18:51 GIhi wrote: I've played Call of Duty at a fairly high level, didn't do bad in arena on WoW either. SC2 was my first RTS. It took me quite some reading and watching to understand how the game worked, but nonetheless I slowly advanced from bottom bronze to upper bronze and after a month or so I got to silver, next season I got to gold where I am now. I don't play a lot but I think a good mentality is the most important thing while laddering. Also TRY to be fast, TRY to use ur keybinds like a crazy nestea mofo, TRY to scout and react. If u have been playing for that long u must know a lot of tactics, and u must know how to react to it. U can get to platinum by 6pooling with shit micro but that's not starcraft is it? Play like u should, improve like u should, and TRY!
Good to see you're enjoying yourself at the what level you play in. Whether you're a GM pro or bronze just got the game yesterday it doesn't matter as long as you're enjoying yourself. I played BW a bit when I was a kid and it had been fairly new, but i never played at the level I play SC2 or even knew people did haha. What helped me get out of bronze is having a set game plan, always tried to keep my money coming in while building units, and learning what to look for to stop obvious builds. TBH.. the scouting I think is one of the biggest things people don't focus on early. If you can determine at a decent level what your oppenent is going to do you can play to that.
I don't think that we've reached this point yet, but I think it's worth mentioning that there always has to be bronze players. If everyone gets promoted that would destroy the ladder system. This isn't to say everyone can't get promoted, but there has to be some percentage of players who won't.
On March 21 2012 07:11 Ambiplat wrote: I don't think that we've reached this point yet, but I think it's worth mentioning that there always has to be bronze players. If everyone gets promoted that would destroy the ladder system. This isn't to say everyone can't get promoted, but there has to be some percentage of players who won't.
Do you mean that the line between Bronze and Silver moves or people won't get promoted just to keep a population on Bronze?
I would think that IF there are no new players coming into the system then eventually Bronze would empty (assuming the Bronze players are learning the game).
For Bronze level players who don't understand why they can't get out of Bronze, there's probably a good deal of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
At every level, including pros, one should always see areas to improve. There seems to be 2 major reasons why someone who is Bronze, stays in Bronze despite playing 10+ games a day.
1) They are already at their physical limit for how fast they can press buttons, move the mouse, click buttons, direct stuff. My SO has an APM of about 35 and she physically cannot do stuff faster. With that said, she's high Gold so maybe that's where the Gold threshold is.
2) They are already at their mental limit. I have a friend who is exhausted mentally after 1 game because there are too many things to think about and he gets overwhelmed. He is in Gold and does not have the mental fortitude to play more than 3 games at a time. Some people are not quick decision-makers. Some people cannot plan more than 1-2 steps ahead and therefore cannot think past the mid-game. Some people just are not analytical enough to figure out what they're doing wrong and even when told, cannot extrapolate concepts beyond the exact situation that they are given (this is obvious given the hundreds of (H) threads of Diamond and below players not being able to figure out why they lost).
On March 21 2012 04:21 TacticalBadger wrote: I've just watched a gold-level NA zerg and holy sh*t this guy was BAD. He was happily floating 6k minerals at 110 food and I don't believe I've seen a single inject in 5 minutes time. He actually won. If that's how gold looks on NA, then I'd hate to see the bronze.
I'm starting to think that the problem might have less to do with bronze and more with the american server...
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
It would only be logical that one servers x league is better than another servers x league. Leagues simple show where people are compared to other players. On a server with only Korean pros and whitera, whitera would be bronze. EU has a stronger non console gaming scene.
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him. Edit: I hope my first paragraph doesn't come off as an ad hominem attack - I'm just extremely suprised that you had over 100+ APM in bronze and were not spamming.
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
It would only be logical that one servers x league is better than another servers x league. Leagues simple show where people are compared to other players. On a server with only Korean pros and whitera, whitera would be bronze. EU has a stronger non console gaming scene.
I guess, but can the difference really be as wide as EU Plat = NA Masters? It seems so wide. I mean, the general consensus is that EU is harder - just I didn't think it was so much more difficult.
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him. Edit: I hope my first paragraph doesn't come off as an ad hominem attack - I'm just extremely suprised that you had over 100+ APM in bronze and were not spamming.
Are we talking Blizzard APM, real APM or their new effective APM (what SC2 measured apm as before the last patch)?
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him. Edit: I hope my first paragraph doesn't come off as an ad hominem attack - I'm just extremely suprised that you had over 100+ APM in bronze and were not spamming.
Are we talking Blizzard APM, real APM or their new effective APM (what SC2 measured apm as before the last patch)?
If you're referring to 100+ APM - I have no idea. I quoted TacticalBadger on that. For Axslav's - I remember in either the first or second IPL - they would show their stats before each game and his was somewhere between 70-90. So I'm assuming Blizzard APM before Blizzard started not counting repetitions. But not sure
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
I'm broke into diamond with 20-30 through the midgame, only rising to micro stuff like scouts, posture, drop, etc. This is as terran as well. Even now my APM steadies around 30 until I start being more aggressive with my units (build and MU dependant) and only rises to around 80. I am not disabled in any way, it is just how many keystrokes I make to play this game.
The amount of "idling" that can happen in the game is sort of odd. Obviously with more actions you can do stuff faster, but with good base management and money spending it doesn't take too much zest to win matches.
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
I'm broke into diamond with 20-30 through the midgame, only rising to micro stuff like scouts, posture, drop, etc. This is as terran as well. Even now my APM steadies around 30 until I start being more aggressive with my units (build and MU dependant) and only rises to around 80. I am not disabled in any way, it is just how many keystrokes I make to play this game.
The amount of "idling" that can happen in the game is sort of odd. Obviously with more actions you can do stuff faster, but with good base management and money spending it doesn't take too much zest to win matches.
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
It would only be logical that one servers x league is better than another servers x league. Leagues simple show where people are compared to other players. On a server with only Korean pros and whitera, whitera would be bronze. EU has a stronger non console gaming scene.
I guess, but can the difference really be as wide as EU Plat = NA Masters? It seems so wide. I mean, the general consensus is that EU is harder - just I didn't think it was so much more difficult.
Lol. No, he's full of shit. Im masters on NA and high diamond on EU. Probably Masters but I don't play very much (as in like 20 games per season when I get on that account). I even played some EU GM in a tourney one time and he was streaming. After the game I got on his stream and he was talking and saying I was smurfing and that there was no way I was actually diamond. So the difference is not that big, although I will agree there is a slight difference.
On March 21 2012 04:21 TacticalBadger wrote: I've just watched a gold-level NA zerg and holy sh*t this guy was BAD. He was happily floating 6k minerals at 110 food and I don't believe I've seen a single inject in 5 minutes time. He actually won. If that's how gold looks on NA, then I'd hate to see the bronze.
I'm starting to think that the problem might have less to do with bronze and more with the american server...
You are assuming something based on nearly no evidence. I can show you games in which I beat a platinum player with an APM of 50 and a SQ below 40! It's because I'm not consistent. Sometimes I'm so thrown of by something that I take the whole game to recover. This game can be hectic and sometimes I'm so pumped that it paralyzes me. A gold player can definitely take a game from me in those moments (I am currently in Platinum). However, then you only take me worse moments, on average I perform a lot better. I'm consistent in beating EU-platinum, with a 55% winratio.
Anyone that can do that, is in platinum, not in gold, not in bronze. I came back in the last week of season 5. I lost all my 3/5 placement matches and got placed in Silver. (MMR reset for not being active for over a season). It took me 24 games to be promoted to gold, around 50 more games to be back in platinum.
TL;DR Don't judge a player on one game. Get a replay pack, see how they perform on average. Understanding what they do better that puts them in a higher league than you is what helps you increase your skill.
I'd be happy to share you a replay pack of my last 50 games if you want proof.
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
I'm broke into diamond with 20-30 through the midgame, only rising to micro stuff like scouts, posture, drop, etc. This is as terran as well. Even now my APM steadies around 30 until I start being more aggressive with my units (build and MU dependant) and only rises to around 80. I am not disabled in any way, it is just how many keystrokes I make to play this game.
The amount of "idling" that can happen in the game is sort of odd. Obviously with more actions you can do stuff faster, but with good base management and money spending it doesn't take too much zest to win matches.
I also had a friend who is in a similar position, where because he refuses to spam at all, he has unbelievably low apm. When i was in diamond i used to average (on old blizzard apm) around 45, and then after starting to spam more, it rose to around 110~ where it is now over a period of a few months, and i my spamming is the number one thing in my opinion that helped me make the leap from diamond to masters, because i used to be proud of my low apm for being efficient, but actually it was holding me back.
I think anyone who puts some effort into improving with the right teachers can become gold quite quickly, and i have a realistic view of what gold is, because i have lots of friends on skype who are at that level, and we used to play koths sometimes where they take it in turn trying to beat me, (and one in maybe 10 games they do, after working together to figure out flaws in my builds).
The fact is that i think one of the biggest areas that are overlooked in lower leagues is inconsistency of players, sometimes they play comparatively well, and sometimes they don't. People look at players like TLO and say he can be inconsistent, well think how much that must be multiplied with a much smaller degree of practice. Sure, sometimes they float 6000 minerals, or don't build nearly enough workers etc, but sometimes they play much better than that.
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
You really don't need that much APM to get through the basic steps of a game. On 2 base (which is where a lot of lower league games end), making workers takes 3 actions every 17 seconds (for T and P, no chronoboost). Producing out of 6 production buildings takes 7-8 actions every ~30 seconds (depending on unit build time / WG cooldown). Add building of supply structures and the occasional upgrade and you can have perfect macro on 2 base with about 35-40 APM (Blizzard APM, in real time it'll be 30% higher or so). Obviously, people in bronze (or any other league below GM / high masters) will not have close to perfect macro, but the example holds nonetheless.
On March 08 2012 17:53 Adamgm wrote: So, thought I might try here.. any bronze players who consider themselves relatively hardcore and still have pretty great games in bronze?
The secondary for writing this is that I spent a long time rather frustrated that I was still in bronze, and I wasn't enjoying myself. Perhaps someone else is in this situation... a switch to being OK with your level of play might do what it did for me, and bring more enjoyment to your play time!
If you're good enough, you don't stay bronze. If you stay at bronze, it means that you're not good. When I started SC2, I was in silver and a regular practice partner of mine was in bronze but he was a lot better than anything I've ever seen on the ladder. He eventually got promoted to diamond (back when masters didn't exist) whereas I stayed in silver. This means that I'm not good enough to get promoted and he is actually diamond level.
On March 21 2012 07:24 GloPikkle wrote: For Bronze level players who don't understand why they can't get out of Bronze, there's probably a good deal of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
At every level, including pros, one should always see areas to improve. There seems to be 2 major reasons why someone who is Bronze, stays in Bronze despite playing 10+ games a day.
1) They are already at their physical limit for how fast they can press buttons, move the mouse, click buttons, direct stuff. My SO has an APM of about 35 and she physically cannot do stuff faster. With that said, she's high Gold so maybe that's where the Gold threshold is.
2) They are already at their mental limit. I have a friend who is exhausted mentally after 1 game because there are too many things to think about and he gets overwhelmed. He is in Gold and does not have the mental fortitude to play more than 3 games at a time. Some people are not quick decision-makers. Some people cannot plan more than 1-2 steps ahead and therefore cannot think past the mid-game. Some people just are not analytical enough to figure out what they're doing wrong and even when told, cannot extrapolate concepts beyond the exact situation that they are given (this is obvious given the hundreds of (H) threads of Diamond and below players not being able to figure out why they lost).
I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings".
I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally.
Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
On March 21 2012 07:24 GloPikkle wrote: For Bronze level players who don't understand why they can't get out of Bronze, there's probably a good deal of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
At every level, including pros, one should always see areas to improve. There seems to be 2 major reasons why someone who is Bronze, stays in Bronze despite playing 10+ games a day.
1) They are already at their physical limit for how fast they can press buttons, move the mouse, click buttons, direct stuff. My SO has an APM of about 35 and she physically cannot do stuff faster. With that said, she's high Gold so maybe that's where the Gold threshold is.
2) They are already at their mental limit. I have a friend who is exhausted mentally after 1 game because there are too many things to think about and he gets overwhelmed. He is in Gold and does not have the mental fortitude to play more than 3 games at a time. Some people are not quick decision-makers. Some people cannot plan more than 1-2 steps ahead and therefore cannot think past the mid-game. Some people just are not analytical enough to figure out what they're doing wrong and even when told, cannot extrapolate concepts beyond the exact situation that they are given (this is obvious given the hundreds of (H) threads of Diamond and below players not being able to figure out why they lost).
I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings".
I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally.
Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
He basically says, that you're limited physically(1) or mentally(2). I don't know what you could bring up against that. It's obvious and has no room for discussion. Maybe he doesn't give the examples that you find appropriate for your situation but it's either of two limits.
On March 19 2012 21:43 Zythius wrote: The big problem that some of you are missing is that a bronze player isn't a homogeneous thing. So you can't really make statements that cover all bronze players. There is everything from complete newbs that doesn't know about the hotkey function to people like the ones described in the original post.
Let's face it - progress up the ladder requires not only skill, but also time. Not all of us has time for this. This progress is slowed even more when 50 % of the time you are putting in is dedicated to doing funday mondays and cheese (because just playing normal is boring). I'm in bronze because of this, but I have beaten diamond level players.
Also, the lower divisions have changed a lot since SC2 was released.
Another Bronze bragging about how good he is.
Let's be even more honest here. It took me less than 2 days of playing 2 hours a day (10 mins a game average?) to progress from bronze to silver for a smurf I had. If you have the macro-micro skills, even doing funday mondays and cheese will make you win the game.
Lower divisions never changed. Bronze is still a cluster of macro-less players who thinks that building workers every 10 in-game minutes works. Or some very weak cheese that can be easily deflected.
Always nice to start off with a good old Ad hominem ;-)
First of all, personal experience is not good grounds for generalization. And how can I confirm what you said about your smurf account? Secondly, do you attempt every single funday monday? And do you really commit to it, or do you just take a normal cookie cutter strategy and make the least possible changes to it?
I think the lower levels have changed. The reasoning behind this statement? The game has been out for some time, and people have learned a lot of stuff.
And you also need to lay off the general statements you make concerning a league you don't even play in. As I said, "bronze players" are not a homogeneous group. Some of them might think building workers every 10 minutes is viable, but it does not apply to all bronze players (and this makes your statement is incorrect).
I demand all Bronze players who claim they are stuck in bronze to attach at least one replay of their play.
I do most funday mondays concerning Zerg and Protoss in the DIAMOND league. I still do not find much problem there. And yes, I tried the most cheesy, out-of-comfort zone strategies for all funday mondays I attempt.
The only way you're stuck in Bronze and not advancing would be that someone (or you) lost 100 games in a row.
If you claim personal statements are false, can I assume your whole argument is invalid because it is out of your personal experience? Stop trying to argue about the homogeneous group. It really do not matter as even with a little bit of effort, you'll make it out of bronze. Very true.
I played bot games since SC2 came out and only finally started to play vs people. I tried one of the 50 practice games only to realize it's played in super slow mode. I stomped one game of that and then skipped the rest.
I played my 5 placement matches and won them all except one. (Beat two silver, two gold and lost to a gold leaguer)
I was then placed in platinum league (huh?), and started losing every game.. over and over.. and over. Kind of put me off playing vs people at all if the match making is just going to put me against ridiculously experienced players until I tank enough games.
I would LOVE to be in bronze league against people of my own calibur.
What you are writing is not really relevant for my part in this discussion. I'm not here to argue about the skill level of people truly stuck in bronze - what got me into this thread is that the bronze league is not a group of similar players. But they are treated that way. I also commented on GloPikkle's post because some of it seemed a little bit wrong. For instance: players in bronze, silver and gold in general lack mental fortitude. That is a crazy statement with little or no data to back it up. Of course many of them are lacking in that respect, but such a general statement is not viable. However, not really related to my original post in this thread - it was just something that caught my eye.
HaruRH,
I still haven't seen any proof of your stories. Personally I try not to make my whole argument rest on anecdotes. But that is besides the point. You tell me to stop talking about homogeneous and heterogeneous groups - I recommend you check up on those concepts. Because, believe me, I am not going against what most of you guys are saying.. Just read what I wrote in the above paragraph, and you will see.
On March 21 2012 23:43 xlz1040 wrote: I played bot games since SC2 came out and only finally started to play vs people. I tried one of the 50 practice games only to realize it's played in super slow mode. I stomped one game of that and then skipped the rest.
I played my 5 placement matches and won them all except one. (Beat two silver, two gold and lost to a gold leaguer)
I was then placed in platinum league (huh?), and started losing every game.. over and over.. and over. Kind of put me off playing vs people at all if the match making is just going to put me against ridiculously experienced players until I tank enough games.
I would LOVE to be in bronze league against people of my own calibur.
You should be at least gold if you managed to beat majority of silver and gold players. The ladder system is built around the idea of progressing further in skill, so you set your MMR high enough to be that plus more and gave you plat to give you a higher threshold to overcome to get better.
If you play bronze at the skill you probably are then you'll just breeze through people just like the people in plat playing you. Take it as a compliment to be plat in your first season because it proves the AI games you've played weren't for nothing.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
What you are writing is not really relevant for my part in this discussion. I'm not here to argue about the skill level of people truly stuck in bronze - what got me into this thread is that the bronze league is not a group of similar players. But they are treated that way. I also commented on GloPikkle's post because some of it seemed a little bit wrong. For instance: players in bronze, silver and gold in general lack mental fortitude. That is a crazy statement with little or no data to back it up. Of course many of them are lacking in that respect, but such a general statement is not viable. However, not really related to my original post in this thread - it was just something that caught my eye.
I think we agree but misunderstand each other. I feel any active player does not belong in Bronze. Being placed in that league means you have yourself to blame for it. For physical or mental reasons, something is up that is holding you back.
Instead I see people complain about rushes, or saying top bronze is still high.. That's not a good way to reflect. Blaming the system or the game is just denying what's really wrong in your play. I'd say the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in these people.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
On EU. In 2012.
Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything.
In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable.
Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
if thats true, then my dog would stand a good chance against the old bronze leaguers.
discounting macro and micro (which are things that are learnt with repetition), the only difference between bronze players and the pros is how much thought they actually put into the game. not that hard to get to diamond level to be fair.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
On EU. In 2012.
Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything.
In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable.
Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
Tempting to be dis-heartened reading through this thread; but if a thread can have that affect on you, it's probably for similar reasons that you feel stuck in bronze; lack of determination and and a battle worn mentality maybe? Of course higher skilled/league players are going to see us as bad players - seems pretty logical, however competent we may feel.
I've been too long in bronze - but it's not hard to see why when I watch my replays. I realised a couple of months ago that whilst I'd improved alot with my Macro, my faults lay with activity on the map - i'm working on this now and do pretty well. I'm sure I'll break out of bronze soon, with practice. I did think it was due to my age and slower brain (?!), I'm 40. However, I don't think this anymore ; it was just a convenient excuse for bad play. If it was age related I would be slow in all the other games I play; and i'm pretty good at them (tf2, SFIV + CS mostly).
I allowed 'ladder anxiety' to creep in at one point; over it now and practicing most days. Someone posted earlier that they think Bronze level play is harder now due to the time the game has been out; but I doubt that, it's all relative (apart from maybe a couple of months after launch where those with SC1 history probably picked up sc2 skills quicker).
Started playing SC2 in September 2011. It's the first RTS I've played (vs Humans at least - always enjoyed C&C/AoE etc). Online. I played two seasons finishing top 8 bronze on EU; bought a second copy of SC2 for NA; placed bronze. Re the region devide points mentioned earlier; I don't feel there is a skill gap between the two servers; bad and less bad players on each imo.
I think it's a shame if you accept you are 'forever bronze' - even if you just play for fun. Part of that fun must come from the competitive aspects of playing sc2? No? Fight on fellow warriors - I firmly believe we'll all progress out of bronze with regular practice, freeing up some space for new joiners to the game and those that practice less - or those returning to the game having failed to get to grips with it when they first bought it, moving on to other games, only to return as they consume more and more eSports event action /VoD's/ eTV (Day(9) - ITG, SOTG etc, and want to join in the fun!
TLDR: Bronzies of Liquid unite - but not to sit back and accept the mediocre; rather to encourage each other to see the game for what it is - Hard! - and better ourselves with our dedication to the task. It's going to be alot more fun to improve our skills; and therefore have a broader pool of players to best whilst having fun, than to sit back and accept it. If I felt any other way, I may as well be playing Sim City.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
On EU. In 2012.
Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything.
In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable.
Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
Let's say I post the replays of me winning with nothing but planetary fortresses built in the middle of the map. People like you would simply retort "but I wouldn't lose to that!"
Well, fact is, even if you wouldn't lose to something like that, you're still in the league with people who will. If you weren't bad you wouldn't be in the league filled with so many bad players. Maybe you have perfected the arcane art of making 22 workers on 1 base, pumping out random units, and attack moving. Cool. The reality is, though, if you're not out of bronze by doing that, something else is terribly, terribly wrong with you. Because you're in the league populated by people who have no fucking clue what they're doing. If you can't win more than 50% of the time against players who don't even know how to play the game and get promoted out of bronze, then guess what: you don't know how to play, either.
On March 21 2012 23:17 Gulzt wrote: He basically says, that you're limited physically(1) or mentally(2). I don't know what you could bring up against that. It's obvious and has no room for discussion. Maybe he doesn't give the examples that you find appropriate for your situation but it's either of two limits.
Oh, please.
There are reasonably intelligent and physically intact people who get stuck in bronze. It's a combination of insufficient time spent playing the game and not necessarily learning skills or knowledge that better players take for granted.
As a simple example, a player who doesn't bother to structure their play around learning hotkeys will probably stay in bronze forever regardless of any other choices they make.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
if thats true, then my dog would stand a good chance against the old bronze leaguers.
Many of the original round of bronze league players were like my 6 year old half-brother, who likes to play protoss and gets his sixth zealot around minute 20.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
On EU. In 2012.
Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything.
In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable.
Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
I'll look into it when I get home, if I still have the replays I would gladly share them. There's me going only marines for a whole game, winning of 3 base vs top 8 silver terran who is going bio tank. I think I have a game where I go CC first into marine marauder and destroy a top 8 silver protoss player as well. If the replays are saved, they might prove my point somewhat.
That said, I'm not going to tank my account into bronze just to prove that macro is enough to get out of it, it's already been proven over and over and is only doubted by the people in bronze themselves, and no matter how many replays you post, they are going to claim that they are different, that you had lucky encounters, that THOSE tactics work because they are weird... It's denial and you can't get around that with proof.
You know who consider themselves as hardcore? Platinum players. And I'm being objective here. I play 3v3, 4v4 and FFA quite a lot so I meet players from every league and 90% of BMs come from Platinum. Anybody else noticed this?
Hi, I posted this 2 replays some days ago (and I got a little help); I see that the thread is more active now and that some people have asked for replays of people stucked in bronze, so here they are again... I somebody could help me, that would be great
On March 14 2012 16:33 milodon wrote: Im one of those players who is stuck in bronze despite playing regularly (I watch day9 ocasionally, I watch a lot of VODS but no too many replays). I think I have definitly improved in the last year, but the rest of people seems to improve faster than I do. I have tried to stick with a build (1 barraks expand) and improve my macro, but my multitasking is really bad and if I ever try to micro, I find myself suddenly floating on 1k minerals. These are replays for the last 2 games I played, against protoss (win) and against zerg (lost).
Could somebody help with something? I know that I have A LOT to work on, Im just plain horrible (at one moment in the vs zerg game, If i remember correctly, I think I missclicked and turn a CC into a planetary inside my main. At first I thought not to post THAT replay, its a little more embarrasing, but I decided to be sincere and post just the two latest games that I have played. These 2 are from yesterday). But my question is: is my gameplay equally bad in all aspects?? Or is there a singularity, ONE THING that is fundamentally wrong for some who has been playing for more than a year now? I like the game and I play for fun, but when you know how the ladder works, its a little frustrating to still be in the low 20% after playing that much. I really would apreciate if some one could watch a replay (and sorry for the bad english!)
I'll look into it when I get home, if I still have the replays I would gladly share them. There's me going only marines for a whole game, winning of 3 base vs top 8 silver terran who is going bio tank. I think I have a game where I go CC first into marine marauder and destroy a top 8 silver protoss player as well. If the replays are saved, they might prove my point somewhat.
And what is this supposed to prove exactly? That a guy who's (presumably) playing this game since release can beat a top 8 silver with marines and marauders?
On March 22 2012 00:39 Gulzt wrote: Instead I see people complain about rushes, or saying top bronze is still high.. That's not a good way to reflect. Blaming the system or the game is just denying what's really wrong in your play. I'd say the Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in these people.
This guy is the only person in this thread who makes sense and I'm just quoting his link because clearly most people didn't go read it. It's amazing that people can be such slaves to their own egos that they manage to convince themselves shit like "actually high bronze players are pretty good!"
You guys have seen "looknohands" right? The disabled gamer who has no hands or feet and is in gold?
If you are stuck in bronze you are either not putting any time into playing, not applying yourself analytically to understanding your mistakes, or (less likely) you are held back by some serious physical or mental handicap. More serious than the guy who doesn't have fucking hands.
Plain and simple if you are not master yet and you have no physical disabilities, what's holding you back is the way you are playing the game. If you would stop making yourself excuses about how good your garbage league is and instead focus on yourself you would improve. Blaming outside factors can only serve to give you ammunition for a forums war. Blaming yourself and analyzing how you can improve will make you better.
All the op needs is dApollos Guides for the 3 races on YouTube... If you watch that and manage to stay in bronze, you're doing it on purpose... May take you a week or so, but you are BOUND to advance... Anything else is just not possible...
This is pretty irritating to hear this sort of statement so constantly. People picking one replay/game and suddenly classifying 1/5 of the SC2 playing population by that game. Yes, there are some horrific gold players who I've wondered how they got into gold and then there are some gold players who are not completely horrible [relatively ofc]. I've played some gold players who are can macro well enough to not float minerals and hit their injects pretty well for atleast the first 7-10 minutes and its irritating to hear these statements generalizing an entire league when the division in it is pretty stark.
A guy above you wrote that his girlfriend/wife is in high gold with 35 APM. I'm not sure if it's even possible to have 35 APM in this game, unless you don't touch the keyboard at all and I can't even imagine, how a person with 35 APM can be in gold. EU silvers typically have between 90 and 120 APM. I've had 100+ APM in high bronze. You don't get a 100 APM in a 30 minute game by accident and "fake" APM is very obvious.
What you and the guy who talked about watching the one "gold" player replay are doing is just proving apm and rank are absolutely meaningless. That "gold" player may have been someone similar to the guy a few posts above who somehow won 4/5 placement matches so it placed him in platinum. When I first started laddering in season 4 I somehow won 3/5 placement matches, well I somehow won 2, the 3rd the person left the game, and I was placed in gold although I wasn't anywhere near "gold". Even worse, it was right before a lock started so soon I was facing bronze players and they were like what?!? you're gold?
As far as apm is concerned I had about 20 apm when I got out of bronze, I am up to high silver now with 30-35 apm(blizzard apm). Most replays I watch people have ~60apm(high end is probably about ~80, while rarely do I see someone with apm as low as mine) and greater than 50% of the time I don't just win, I absolutely crush them. I'm facing almost exclusively top 25 gold and top 8 silvers(occasionally a top 8 gold or plat) its usually the top 25 golds I crush, while top 8 silvers are usually very even matches. So that tells me rank and apm are meaningless. I've only come across one player with over 100apm, a "silver" player and it was obvious he was a smurf/playing someone else's account, etc because looking through his history he won his previous 12 games in a row.
As far as the whole NA/EU thing, there are less players in EU than NA so naturally EU bottom 20% is going to be higher than NA 20%. The lower the population the harder it is to get out of a league, which adds into the whole rank and apm are meaningless.
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
From my own experience there is not much of a difference. I have accounts on both EU and NA and imo the average high dia/low masters on NA is just as good as the equivalent from EU. People saying stuff like "NA masters=EU plat" probably have no experience playing on both servers. I don't play on the KR server but i can imagine the general skill level being much higher there.
Ofc it is no secret that EU has more top pros than NA, but i'd say that anywhere below GM EU=NA skillwise.
I feel bad for people who play that much and are so low i got in 300~ wins from bronze to mid/high diamond, I didnt watch any day9 daily's (now I do for fun ;p). Just play and dont cheese/allin. There is no way you can be forever bad unless your like handicapped or something but I doubt it. Ever considered asking for coaching or something?
I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings".
Apparently some people are. My friend's an engineer from a top 50 school so it's not that he's unintelligent, he just does not process things mentally as quickly as he needs. He can handle probably 1-2 tasks in SC2 at a time and if you push him beyond that, he quickly gets overwhelmed.
Mental limits can also be things like pride (don't tell me how to play), shame (I can't handle looking noob), stubbornness (I'm going to make this work despite the fact that it clearly doesn't). I don't really feel like my generalization needs to be defended too much. How many posts do we see in the Strategy forum from low-level players saying "omfg I don't know why I lost" and when the replay is viewed, there are tens of things that they did wrong that are glaringly obvious to anyone who's watched high-level play.
I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally.
I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here.
However, for people who are playing 5-6 games a week and play SC2 just like they would play Mario, meaning no strategy, thought, or effort, of course they'll be forever Bronze. My point is merely that if they are actually trying to improve, it's either a physical or mental block somewhere.
Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
The pool's goals might be heterogenous but the reasons why they're in Bronze are probably not. I don't see an easy way to differentiate them nor the need to besides just asking if they want to improve.
@TacticalBadger It's not hard to get into Gold and sustain that with 35 APM. This is Blizz's APM, not true APM. It basically translates into doing 1 thing every 1.5 seconds. All my SO does is make production structures, queue a bunch of workers, expand when she needs gas, more more production structures and attacks when she has a few colossus. It's not that hard and it'll work up until Gold without scouting, reactions, specific timings, or anything like that.
2 port cloaked banshees with a C + 1a-move into their base will net you wins until Silver-Gold as well and probably takes even less APM.
On March 22 2012 02:19 GloPikkle wrote: I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here.
I think most people in garbage leagues with such an incredible number of games, like thousands a month, are almost always portrait farming. I don't see how else they could stay down there, even if you never look at your replays or put any effort into analysis if you play thousands of games a month you'd have to learn enough by accident to at least go up to gold or so (where people are still totally fucking clueless.)
And still the general level of play has increased tremendously. I've been high gold/plat forever, my lvl of play has increased quite a lot but so has the lvl of my opponents.
On March 21 2012 23:17 Gulzt wrote: He basically says, that you're limited physically(1) or mentally(2). I don't know what you could bring up against that. It's obvious and has no room for discussion. Maybe he doesn't give the examples that you find appropriate for your situation but it's either of two limits.
Oh, please.
There are reasonably intelligent and physically intact people who get stuck in bronze. It's a combination of insufficient time spent playing the game and not necessarily learning skills or knowledge that better players take for granted.
As a simple example, a player who doesn't bother to structure their play around learning hotkeys will probably stay in bronze forever regardless of any other choices they make.
How are those not physical or mental limits as pertains specifically to people who are in Bronze and want to get out of Bronze? Time is indirectly a physical limitation because less practice means less precision, speed and consistency.
Not structuring their play around hotkeys is either due to stubbornness, ignorance or stupidity. The first two can be easily remedied and should not be a good reason for staying in Bronze, the last is a mental limit.
On March 22 2012 02:19 GloPikkle wrote: I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here.
I think most people in garbage leagues with such an incredible number of games, like thousands a month, are almost always portrait farming. I don't see how else they could stay down there, even if you never look at your replays or put any effort into analysis if you play thousands of games a month you'd have to learn enough by accident to at least go up to gold or so (where people are still totally fucking clueless.)
Most but not all. This guy was actually playing them out in really retarded fashions based upon the build orders that he was using. You can usually tell portrait farmers because they're higher league at some point and suddenly they drop. I also do not see the point of continuing to play thousands of games across multiple seasons when presumably you've already gotten all the portraits that you can get.
On March 08 2012 18:54 Vallz wrote: As a terran I really disagree with going full on macro. Honestly, terran in lower league suffers because we all know that terran needs more unit controls because they are alot more fragile. I think Terrans that are trying to get up should try to balance those 2 factors macro and micro to a good stable level. Although macro should always have an edge over micro.
no man. in lower leagues you gotta spam A and maybe D a bit and make sure you are building supplies. Then you A-move your marine-marauder army and start over while adding bases. at some point you are gonna get it, therefore climb rankings.
as long as you cannot get the mechanics of the game to work fluently for you, MMA stutter step or Yugioh master dropping wont be useful cause you will be relying on your mouse instead of your keyboard. wich is bad.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
If a bronze or a silver player has over 100 APM and can't get to AT LEAST gold, they are horrific, horrific players (and slow learners to boot). Also, no silver player anywhere in the world has "pretty solid mechanics". That is an egregious exaggeration. Take that from a mid masters player who knows how bad he is and how horrendous his own mechanics are.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Please do not overvalue the Bronze league players. 100+ is not uncommon? I've been coaching a friend this week. We've played ~45 games in bronze league and we've watched every replay. Literally no player had an APM higher then 40/50. The only player that had a higher APM was a masterleague player who was smurfing the lower leagues for pictures. He had average 120 APM. Saying that 100+ APM for an bronze player is not uncommon means you have no idea about bronze league players. In comparison: my APM is 70 average as Diamond Zerg, which is a little lower than average probably. While showing my buddy how to play, no player came close to my macro, which is normal (just like I'm no match for Master players).
I'm not bashing on Bronze players. APM doesn't mean anything and I noticed that most bronze just wanna play the game and are not afraid of losing. In contrary to Diamond/Master where ego players a bigger role. But please don't overvalue the Bronze league players like it's really not that bad..cause it is.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
How is this not true? There are definitely cheeses out there that you nor I even know about. Bad players are hard to read. I beat masters/diamond players because they can be read and I know what to do against them. Plat/Gold players seemingly have the weirdest builds I have seen in my life and when I analyze my replays I honestly have no idea "wtf" they are doing.
Day 9 also said that. Bad players cannot be read. (I forget the daily but it was in the last recent months of his casting). \
If you cannot win you are bad? Lol. Get out please. With this logic that means Pros are bad.
EDIT: BTW I play all races at a Gold Korean level and Platinum NA level.
Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)? Here's a completely random example of bronze versus bronze I dug up. The players are indeed bad (the protoss had 40 workers on 1 mine at some point), but it's a far cry from "has 5 zealots at 15 minute mark" or whatever bronzers are supposed to be doing.
I can beat my top plat friend with nothing but macro. I don't play safe, I play borderline greedy. But because my macro is good, it doesn't matter what cheese my opponent throws at me I will have more stuff than him. You think bronze players' CRAZY UNPREDICTABLE cheese is any good? No, the reason why its unpredictable is because they are doing something horribly wrong, their macro sucks, they have no concept of gas timing.
If you can't hold off a cheese that is probably arriving 3 minutes late with bruteforce units, then your macro sucks as well. The cheese in bronze is god awful and who cares if its unpredictable, it sucks.
You had 100+ APM and you were in bronze?!?! How exactly? I mean, if TL is to be believed, if you make workers and just pump units you can be atleast gold if not plat. So I ask, what were you using 100+ APM if you weren't making workers/units more or less constantly. And lets not use APM as a measure of skill - Axslav has 70-90 APM and is better than 99% of TL - most who probably have a higher APM than him.
Because it's not uncommon for a high-bronzer/silver to have 100+ APM these days, at least on EU. Making workers and pumping units doesn't get you out of bronze in 2012, because silvers tend to have pretty solid mechanics.
Yes it does. I literally win in gold as terran, my worst off race, by only building marines and no scouting. It's literally that simple.
On EU. In 2012.
Not that I doubt you but you and a lot of others in this thread do a lot of talk without showing anything.
In the strategy section of TL this kind of talk would be unacceptable.
Now instead of just responding with "I can do X in league Y", just like in strategy section, provide a couple of replays.
Let's say I post the replays of me winning with nothing but planetary fortresses built in the middle of the map. People like you would simply retort "but I wouldn't lose to that!"
Well, fact is, even if you wouldn't lose to something like that, you're still in the league with people who will. If you weren't bad you wouldn't be in the league filled with so many bad players. Maybe you have perfected the arcane art of making 22 workers on 1 base, pumping out random units, and attack moving. Cool. The reality is, though, if you're not out of bronze by doing that, something else is terribly, terribly wrong with you. Because you're in the league populated by people who have no fucking clue what they're doing. If you can't win more than 50% of the time against players who don't even know how to play the game and get promoted out of bronze, then guess what: you don't know how to play, either.
First of all I am not in bronze league and second of all despite not being in a high league (I am gold) I have no illusion about my skill. I frankly have fun playing SC2 and trying to improve.
Now, the question is not if A bronze leaguer or any X leaguer would lose to the strategy you are proposing. The question is, will you have a win ratio above 50% with the strategy you are claiming is valid in league X.
I have seen all kinds of losses from bronze to grandmaster on streams and laughed at them. Just because there is a person here and there losing doesn't prove anything.
At least there was a guy a page or two ago giving me the link to Destiny going mass queens in many games showing you can actually play that strategy up to league whatever league he managed to get up to.
Now instead of giving one example of you winning with planetery fortresses, get to bronze and get out of bronze with the planetery only strategy.
From getting feedback from higher level players on my replays, the only issue with my game seems to be lack of consistent scouting. I'll initially poke around a little bit, but then fail to keep coming back.
It's just hard for me to process that lack of consistent scouting is keeping me Forever Bronze. I rarely get scouted more than once at the beginning of the game on ladder. Sometimes not even that.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
How is this not true? There are definitely cheeses out there that you nor I even know about. Bad players are hard to read. I beat masters/diamond players because they can be read and I know what to do against them. Plat/Gold players seemingly have the weirdest builds I have seen in my life and when I analyze my replays I honestly have no idea "wtf" they are doing.
Day 9 also said that. Bad players cannot be read. (I forget the daily but it was in the last recent months of his casting). \
If you cannot win you are bad? Lol. Get out please. With this logic that means Pros are bad.
EDIT: BTW I play all races at a Gold Korean level and Platinum NA level.
When you say you beat them do you mean that you beat them consistently or that you "have at one point in your life beat them". Diamond/Masters players CAN lose, but they USUALLY do not.
And bad players are not difficult to read at all. The read just needs to be different than reading a good player.
For example, Toss player goes gas before gateway and has not expanded before 6 minutes. I would read this as an extremely heavy tech all-in. The WRONG way to read this as a high-level player would be to assume a specific all-in like DTs or double stargate (assuming you're playing a bad player). But if you respond generally, ie spore in each base, cut drones once saturated on 2 bases, add queens and roaches until either he expands or attacks, then you're safe against whatever garbage he's going to throw at you.
He could be doing the most illogical or crazy cheese but GOOD players know how to react generally to cheese that they are not at least 80% sure of.
And don't straw-man the argument of not winning = bad. That's not what he meant. Not winning against bad players = you're bad. Everybody loses to random/stupid cheese from bad players, but the good players lose a lot less.
The argument "I could be Diamond if I learned how to deal with cheese" is baseless and a strong indicator that Dunning-Kruger applies to them. Skill in SC2 is not just measured by how many MULES you can throw down or injects you can hit on time, but your decision-making, scouting, reactions, etc. All of these are required to be Diamond/Masters otherwise you're bad.
On March 22 2012 02:19 GloPikkle wrote: Apparently some people are. My friend's an engineer from a top 50 school so it's not that he's unintelligent, he just does not process things mentally as quickly as he needs. He can handle probably 1-2 tasks in SC2 at a time and if you push him beyond that, he quickly gets overwhelmed.
I mentioned this before, but there's some research that suggests that people with unusually strong analytical problem-solving skills often exhibit an intense, single-minded focus on mental tasks that can interfere with multitasking. This by itself explains why otherwise intelligent people might have significant trouble with Starcraft despite practice.
On March 22 2012 03:13 TacticalBadger wrote: Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)? Here's a completely random example of bronze versus bronze I dug up. The players are indeed bad (the protoss had 40 workers on 1 mine at some point), but it's a far cry from "has 5 zealots at 15 minute mark" or whatever bronzers are supposed to be doing.
I saw the replay; Im currently stuck in bronze, and it looks really similar to what I see every day... that's the bronze standard. In other words, what you see (most of the time, allthough not in that particular replay): some basic build order (one rax expand or banshee opening for terran) that goes to hell if early agression or anything unexpected happens; the build order is chosen without to much scouting, and the micro actually hurts the units (like on the last battle of the replay for the terran. That looked a lot like some of my battles). And we (bronze players) have a really hard time getting third expansions and keeping up with upgrades, and usually cut SCVs after (or sometimes even before) the natural is saturated. I know a lot of people think that bronze-silver-gold are absolutely the same crap, but for people who are trying to get out, every little step counts. I think, in comparison with bronze players, silver and gold dont cut SCVs that early,they usually have more production facilities and dont get suplied blocked that much, and they plan a little ahead how to get that third. Thats about it. I dont think here micro matters at this point (except for the players who hurts the units with their micro; at bronze level, most of the time is better to let the AI do its work), and scouting really hard is also not that important! (please dont kill me, I dont mean to say that scouting is not important, just saying that, at this level, you can get away - as a terran -with an ocassional scan, no need to float a barrak, do a drop or put a reaper in his main just to scout).
But what do I know, Im in bronze. I posted a couple of recent replays a while ago (page 20 of this thread); again I ask for help.
I guess people don't consider talent when saying it's impossible to play as much as you say while watching day9 and reviewing your gameplay. Everyone has a skill ceiling, for some it's pro level for others it's in bronze. Once you recognize your potential you will enjoy the game more.
On March 22 2012 03:32 DarK[A] wrote: From getting feedback from higher level players on my replays, the only issue with my game seems to be lack of consistent scouting. I'll initially poke around a little bit, but then fail to keep coming back.
It's just hard for me to process that lack of consistent scouting is keeping me Forever Bronze. I rarely get scouted more than once at the beginning of the game on ladder. Sometimes not even that.
I guarantee that scouting is not your only problem if you're Forever Bronze. What race do you play?
On March 22 2012 02:36 GloPikkle wrote: Time is indirectly a physical limitation because less practice means less precision, speed and consistency.
By that argument, not playing Starcraft at all is a physical limitation. The post I quoted was talking about bodily physical deficiencies, not any happening in the physical world that somehow impacts performance.
Not structuring their play around hotkeys is either due to stubbornness, ignorance or stupidity. The first two can be easily remedied and should not be a good reason for staying in Bronze, the last is a mental limit.
Stubbornness and ignorance are not, in and of themselves, mental deficiencies.
On March 22 2012 02:19 GloPikkle wrote: Apparently some people are. My friend's an engineer from a top 50 school so it's not that he's unintelligent, he just does not process things mentally as quickly as he needs. He can handle probably 1-2 tasks in SC2 at a time and if you push him beyond that, he quickly gets overwhelmed.
I mentioned this before, but there's some research that suggests that people with unusually strong analytical problem-solving skills often exhibit an intense, single-minded focus on mental tasks that can interfere with multitasking. This by itself explains why otherwise intelligent people might have significant trouble with Starcraft despite practice.
I would say that it describes him pretty well. He's really good at one thing and he's able to recognize and attempt to emulate good play. But he cannot do multiple things at once and when he pushes himself to do it, he gets completely exhausted mentally.
On March 22 2012 02:36 GloPikkle wrote: Time is indirectly a physical limitation because less practice means less precision, speed and consistency.
By that argument, not playing Starcraft at all is a physical limitation. The post I quoted was talking about bodily physical deficiencies, not any happening in the physical world that somehow impacts performance.
Not structuring their play around hotkeys is either due to stubbornness, ignorance or stupidity. The first two can be easily remedied and should not be a good reason for staying in Bronze, the last is a mental limit.
Stubbornness and ignorance are not, in and of themselves, mental deficiencies.
Well various physical limits dictate a person's ability to do things. For example I played piano for 15 years and my fingers are just naturally a bit quicker and stronger than the average person. There are more synaptic connections that have been made in my brain to help trigger the muscle twitches to do things like hit a button. Someone who has never done anything related to finger exercise will naturally start off at a lower baseline ability. This can be built up of course over time. My APM is only around 150 in-game and there are thousands of people faster.
I would also just delineate limits vs deficiencies. Stubbornness may not be a deficiency but it certainly limits one's ability to improve. I can attest to this with my Forever Bronze friend who plays more than me. He insists on making Immortals every game. He will open 2-gate 3-robo on 1 base and be damned if you try to tell him that what he's doing is wrong/stupid/retarded.
I can agree with the stuff said in 1), but not in 2). It seems weird to me that so many people (in bronze and maybe even silver) would get mentally exhausted after 1-3 games. Are people really that weak? It just seems like another way for higher level players to patronize the lower levels. "Poor things, don't have the same mental capacity as us higher beings".
Apparently some people are. My friend's an engineer from a top 50 school so it's not that he's unintelligent, he just does not process things mentally as quickly as he needs. He can handle probably 1-2 tasks in SC2 at a time and if you push him beyond that, he quickly gets overwhelmed.
Mental limits can also be things like pride (don't tell me how to play), shame (I can't handle looking noob), stubbornness (I'm going to make this work despite the fact that it clearly doesn't). I don't really feel like my generalization needs to be defended too much. How many posts do we see in the Strategy forum from low-level players saying "omfg I don't know why I lost" and when the replay is viewed, there are tens of things that they did wrong that are glaringly obvious to anyone who's watched high-level play.
I would recommend that you look into the lifestyle of professional gamers. The thing that they got in common is that they spend extreme amounts of time on getting better. Some of them even move to Korea!! This is not something they share with most bronze and silver players. I can fully believe that professionals have a little extra talent, but most of the master and diamond players are better than bronze players simply because they put in more time, not because they are superior mentally.
I saw a guy in Bronze with 2000+ games won in season 4 which means he's probably played twice that roughly. Looking at his match history, he's not worker rushing or 6 pooling every game but actually playing them out. I can't even fathom how much time he has put into playing. There is something wrong here.
However, for people who are playing 5-6 games a week and play SC2 just like they would play Mario, meaning no strategy, thought, or effort, of course they'll be forever Bronze. My point is merely that if they are actually trying to improve, it's either a physical or mental block somewhere.
Anyways, this entire post goes a little against my sentiments in regards to making general statements of heterogeneous groups. We want to talk about true bronze players that probably won't make it out of bronze even with their best efforts, but how do we isolate these from all the others in the bronze league?
The pool's goals might be heterogenous but the reasons why they're in Bronze are probably not. I don't see an easy way to differentiate them nor the need to besides just asking if they want to improve.
Well, you are only talking about one friend - hardly a lot of data. I'm also curious about what you classify as a "task in SC2" and how many you think you can perform. It just seems a little bit difficult to measure.
The text I originally quoted you on does mention the "mental limits", but it is not until now that I understand that you include a lot of things into that concept. You should have communicated that better, because that text gives the impression that "mental limits" strictly have to do with our analytical and multitasking abilities.
We will just have to disagree on the reasons people are in bronze. Your two main categories of explanations does not cover it in my opinion. I think a lot of hardcore gamers have difficulties with seeing how casual players end up in bronze because they are casual gamers, not because they are mentally retarded or other things..
On March 22 2012 03:32 DarK[A] wrote: From getting feedback from higher level players on my replays, the only issue with my game seems to be lack of consistent scouting. I'll initially poke around a little bit, but then fail to keep coming back.
It's just hard for me to process that lack of consistent scouting is keeping me Forever Bronze. I rarely get scouted more than once at the beginning of the game on ladder. Sometimes not even that.
I guarantee that scouting is not your only problem if you're Forever Bronze. What race do you play?
I play Zerg and my typical opening is 14/14 with speed, typically into broaches.
On March 22 2012 03:47 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: I guess people don't consider talent when saying it's impossible to play as much as you say while watching day9 and reviewing your gameplay. Everyone has a skill ceiling, for some it's pro level for others it's in bronze. Once you recognize your potential you will enjoy the game more.
There is no such thing, that's ridiculous. Anyone could technically be a pro, it just requires time and a lot of determination, you can't possibly mean a person can get to the point where they literally can't improve, especially not in bronze etc where it's so easy to find improvements.
Talent is a term made up to be used as an excuse. People may or may not have an affinity for something based on their experience and preferences, but there's no magical skill you were born with which makes you better than anyone else.
Honestly I think this hole thread just shows how retarded all this ranking bullshit in modern games has made people. As long as you enjoy what you do, who cares what fucking league you are in? If you play to get better/become as good as you can you will automatically rise up, not at the same pace for everyone, but if you are truly passionate about becoming good at this game and put in the time you will. If not and you just play for fun w/e then you won't, but thats fine as well. Way too many people playing this game are totally concerned about their rank and shit. Your rank doesn't indicate your skill, it doesn't tell how good you are, at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit. Also there is a such thing as talent, but practicing hard will overcome any way that might make you not as naturally good at starcraft then others. And I may pull a quote here : "practice beats talent if talent doesn't practice".
Also from "coaching" quiet a lot of bronze players I have come to the realization that teaching them how to play correctly will only make it harder as they lack game knowledge and mechanics to do so properly. Just play the game, watch replays, think of ways to improve and you'll get there, if not than thats also fine. Plus bronze has become sooooo much better, when I was bronze league it was only cloacked banshee/void ray/6 pool etc. pp., nowadays they actually expand, sometimes even more then once. Shit has become pretty serious in bronze.
On March 22 2012 19:22 Tobberoth wrote: Talent is a term made up to be used as an excuse.
This is simply not the case. Some people find certain types of problem solving inherently easier. Certainly, having less talent than someone else shouldn't be a barrier to making the effort to improve, but there's no doubt that improvement comes much more easily to some people than others.
On March 22 2012 19:26 Lorch wrote: Your rank doesn't indicate your skill, it doesn't tell how good you are, at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit.
Your rank is highly correlated with your chance of beating someone else of a different rank. That's the entire point of the system. So yeah, it does mean something.
On March 22 2012 19:22 Tobberoth wrote: Talent is a term made up to be used as an excuse.
This is simply not the case. Some people find certain types of problem solving inherently easier. Certainly, having less talent than someone else shouldn't be a barrier to making the effort to improve, but there's no doubt that improvement comes much more easily to some people than others.
Yeah, if I've played RTS games since I was 10, obviously I'll improve faster at SC2, that's a given. Calling it "talent" is just a way to create a blackbox so you can say "Well, I'd be good if I had talent", when in fact, it's just experience.
When I play coop games with some friends, they suck. This is because I have "talent" when it comes to games since I got my first console when I was 6, they haven't had consoles in their whole lives. Calling that talent is just BS, it's just much more time invested.
On March 22 2012 03:47 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: I guess people don't consider talent when saying it's impossible to play as much as you say while watching day9 and reviewing your gameplay. Everyone has a skill ceiling, for some it's pro level for others it's in bronze. Once you recognize your potential you will enjoy the game more.
Talent is a term made up to be used as an excuse. People may or may not have an affinity for something based on their experience and preferences, but there's no magical skill you were born with which makes you better than anyone else.
Of course we can say that there are some sort of relevant talents for playing RTS games (not just SC2 or BW). It just depends on how we define "talents".
I think that multitasking and inductive/deductive reasoning are important skills - not talents. These skills may be derived from having certain "talents", but everyone can practice these skills. In my opinion the most important factors are experience with SC2 and personal commitment to improve. Unless we somehow prove that pro gamers are significantly more intelligent and gifted it stands as the most valid explanation.
On March 22 2012 19:38 Tobberoth wrote: Yeah, if I've played RTS games since I was 10, obviously I'll improve faster at SC2, that's a given. Calling it "talent" is just a way to create a blackbox so you can say "Well, I'd be good if I had talent", when in fact, it's just experience.
That's not what I'm saying, at all. I'm saying that two different people, making the same effort, starting from 0 in terms of RTS experience, will wind up at different places in terms of Starcraft skill.
On March 22 2012 21:16 Zythius wrote: I think that multitasking and inductive/deductive reasoning are important skills - not talents
Of those two, multitasking is BY FAR the more important. A player can have very strong analytical reasoning skills and still be a weak Starcraft player.
On March 21 2012 04:25 Josh_rakoons wrote: Masters on NA is actually pretty close to platinum/low diamond on EU and KR, some of the decisions and micro on that server is abysmal...
Can someone please provide replays of a platinum player in EU taking multiple games of a masters player in NA. I'm not debating whether EU is better than NA or not - as I've never played on EU - but I find it incredulously hard to believe that if I'm plat on EU, I'm suddenly equivalent to masters on NA. Maybe high diamond(EU) == low masters (NA), but plat, seriously? And even then, how is it possible that the general European population is better than the general NA population. Its possible that at the very top, European pros are better than NA pros, but can someone explain why just the random plat player in Europe is much better than a random plat player in America.
Don't listen to that idiot you quoted. I play on EU and NA and am masters on both servers, plus I get a bit of latency playing on EU. EU players seem to think people from NA are all brain dead fat people or something and can't stand to be compared equally to NA players which is annoying, and wrong. Not like it really matters what they think though, they'll just underestimate NA players in online tourneys and lose for it.
On March 22 2012 03:32 DarK[A] wrote: From getting feedback from higher level players on my replays, the only issue with my game seems to be lack of consistent scouting. I'll initially poke around a little bit, but then fail to keep coming back.
It's just hard for me to process that lack of consistent scouting is keeping me Forever Bronze. I rarely get scouted more than once at the beginning of the game on ladder. Sometimes not even that.
I guarantee that scouting is not your only problem if you're Forever Bronze. What race do you play?
I agree, those "higher level" players he's getting advice from obviously aren't very good, or intelligent.
All of these discussions are absolutely crazy. Do you really think its the higher level in bronze that is holding you back? or the by some suggested skill difference between EU and US plat? The only reason why you're not improving and getting out of the brackets is your inability to execute a safe strategy. Bronze players hard to read? who cares, unless theyre 6 pooling you should be able to stop anything by having a safe build which makes a lot of units. My advice would be stop wasting 2 hours watching day9 or w/e you do and start playing more in order to somewhat succesfully execute your strategy.
On March 22 2012 21:16 Zythius wrote: I think that multitasking and inductive/deductive reasoning are important skills - not talents
Of those two, multitasking is BY FAR the more important. A player can have very strong analytical reasoning skills and still be a weak Starcraft player.
Yeah, I believe it is the most important as well. Good multitasking allows you to reap benefits from both microing and macroing, and it means that you can handle stressful situations at the same time as you are stressing the opponent.
However, good analytical reasoning skills are also very important. It's about taking into account what you can observe and putting it into a big picture that maps out possible courses of action for both you and your opponent.
On March 22 2012 21:16 Zythius wrote: I think that multitasking and inductive/deductive reasoning are important skills - not talents
Of those two, multitasking is BY FAR the more important. A player can have very strong analytical reasoning skills and still be a weak Starcraft player.
Yeah, I believe it is the most important as well. Good multitasking allows you to reap benefits from both microing and macroing, and it means that you can handle stressful situations at the same time as you are stressing the opponent.
However, good analytical reasoning skills are also very important. It's about taking into account what you can observe and putting it into a big picture that maps out possible courses of action for both you and your opponent.
Both of these skills can be trained.
Only if the analysing can be done *quickly*. Ever seen a bad player scout a base and completely stop worker production back home? That's too much time spent trying to figure out what build the opponent is using.
On March 22 2012 22:44 clownfish wrote: All of these discussions are absolutely crazy. Do you really think its the higher level in bronze that is holding you back?
There's a bunch of arguments made in the thread, none of them really connected. 1) Bronze players are on average better than they used to be. Almost certainly true, but not related to the other two points. 2) TL posters outside of bronze league keep making up bronze league behaviours that people actually in or near bronze league don't see as accurate. This could be explained by the big skill range within bronze. A high league probably smurfs the bottom of bronze and sees the worst examples, anyone competent enough to analyze their own replays and genuinely trying to get out of bronze is probably near the top of that league. 3) The nature vs nurture debate on SC2 skill. On one extreme, people who believe that otherwise normally functioning(ie not retarded in the original sense of the word) people might well be skillcapped in bronze. Vs people who assume they're all brain damaged or something.
On March 22 2012 03:13 TacticalBadger wrote: Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)?
I can provide you with lots of recent replays showing for example :
- a silver Terran going mass BCs and Marines (no medivacs) against Zerg - a bronze Terran expanding at 25 minutes, when his main runs out of minerals - a silver Protoss trying to stop a mutalisk harass with zealots - a silver Zerg player opening with 2 pools followed by 2 evolution chambers
People in low leagues are indeed clueless about how the game works and what the buildings or units are used for ...
On March 22 2012 03:13 TacticalBadger wrote: Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)?
I can provide you with lots of recent replays showing for example :
- a silver Terran going mass BCs and Marines (no medivacs) against Zerg - a bronze Terran expanding at 25 minutes, when his main runs out of minerals - a silver Protoss trying to stop a mutalisk harass with zealots - a silver Zerg player opening with 2 pools followed by 2 evolution chambers
People in low leagues are indeed clueless about how the game works and what the buildings or units are used for ...
Heh, wish I met more of those people when *I* ladder in silver. Maybe one in twenty does something slightly odd, like doing a Forge First opening against Terran, but its mostly super standard stuff. Terrans go marine/tank/viking, protoss go gateway+colossi, zerg go lingblingmuta, sometimes with roaches. I can't remember the last time I played someone and thought "woah, this guy must be straight outta placements and landed in the wrong league". I see more smurfs and instaleavers tbh.
On March 08 2012 18:51 ScienceNotBusiness wrote: ya...pro players dont realize that they have a gift, it's not just practice all day derp derp. lots of people that are really smart and cant break out of 'x' league. it's all about your current mental state irl, and you evaluate what ur doing in real time in game using that mental state. i myself think that many factors irl hold me back at least 1 or 2 leagues, as i alrerady have all the knowledge and coordination required, i basically just freak out in game, and if u dont think u are, well u probably are anyway, cuz its built into ur scrubness. oh, and pro players have mastered clicking buttons in the proper order, and that shit is just dumb nerd shit u need to practice....has nothing to do with any "real" skill...
User was warned for this post
That's a stupid argument. I've been in master since it the day it was added, and I don't have time to play much. In average I play 1 hour a day (of course that's just an average, at weekends I can play for few hours, but at weekdays I usually don't have time at all). And I sometimes teach or just have fun with lower leagues. I don't play seriously, so I can just play with 30 APM and still beat them, or making stupid stuff like mass queens. Macro and micro is a big part of real skill, it doesn't matter if you are clever or not, but the strategies that pros or simple masters use are much better than those which are used by bronze players. It doesn't mean you are a nerd if you "mastered clicking buttons in a the proper order". I have seen bronze players with 10 times more games player than me, it doesn't make me a nerd, and them full of life, it means they are just simply stupid. When someone has over 5000 league wins (and most of it 1v1) and still being in bronze, it means he's stupid that's all.
On March 22 2012 03:13 TacticalBadger wrote: Sooooo... Can anyone actually provide a recent replay of a silver/high bronze playing terribly (not badly, but TERRIBLY as in: what the hell is this guy doing)?
I can provide you with lots of recent replays showing for example :
- a silver Terran going mass BCs and Marines (no medivacs) against Zerg - a bronze Terran expanding at 25 minutes, when his main runs out of minerals - a silver Protoss trying to stop a mutalisk harass with zealots - a silver Zerg player opening with 2 pools followed by 2 evolution chambers
People in low leagues are indeed clueless about how the game works and what the buildings or units are used for ...
Heh, wish I met more of those people when *I* ladder in silver. Maybe one in twenty does something slightly odd, like doing a Forge First opening against Terran, but its mostly super standard stuff. Terrans go marine/tank/viking, protoss go gateway+colossi, zerg go lingblingmuta, sometimes with roaches. I can't remember the last time I played someone and thought "woah, this guy must be straight outta placements and landed in the wrong league". I see more smurfs and instaleavers tbh.
Yah the people who smurf in bronze just to farm portrait are really stupid nerds. I mean it's just a portrait, and you ruin others' games who don't even stand a chance. But they aren't gonna be good, I mean REALLY good, so they are wasting their time with portrait hunt.
I actually think this is wrong I started bronze without ever playing then got here to tl watched a lot of pro games d9 etc etc got really good and never got out of top silver then a friend borrowed me an acc i did plat then another friend lent me his br account i did diamond (more than 1.5 to 2 yr ago) after 56 weeks i played this game again didnt even remember the keys ... I only did proxy inside their base gateway was still ranked gold I actually think that those lower leagues don't teach you nothing but to be bad, you must just learn an all in (4 gates bane bust or whatever its good nowadays) and all in your way to plat+ then u can start learning with your games, staying in bronze-silver is not even funny. If you know tl url u shouldnt be anything bellow plat ....
For anyone who is still wondering what is the current level in bronze, this are my last TEN replays (no selection, 5 games today and 5 yesterday). THIS is bronze. And yes, some of the battles can be entertaining if you put some Benny Hill music in the background. Watching some of the replays made me realize even more how much I suck (but, even so, there's no mass Queens, PF rushes or stuff like that... well, except for a replay of a match with a guy who didnt know the units, aparently he was just starting with the game - he didn`t know medivacs could drop and was very surprised by that fact, and somehow was in Silver. Yep, that guy was higher than me). Here are the jewels:
On March 23 2012 02:28 milodon wrote: For anyone who is still wondering what is the current level in bronze, this are my last TEN replays (no selection, 5 games today and 5 yesterday). THIS is bronze. And yes, some of the battles can be entertaining if you put some Benny Hill music in the background. Watching some of the replays made me realize even more how much I suck (but, even so, there's no mass Queens, PF rushes or stuff like that... well, except for a replay of a match with a guy who didnt know the units, aparently he was just starting with the game - he didn`t know medivacs could drop and was very surprised by that fact, and somehow was in Silver. Yep, that guy was higher than me). Here are the jewels:
how common is portrait hunting in bronze? i never really thought it had that big of an impact just because of how rare it is. do bronze people see it very often?
Not VERY often,but once in a while... most of them do probe rushes, or quit inmediatly if they not scout at close positions. And @nod, yes, Im sure that`s what happened, a lucky placement... it was very unusual, anyway. The rest of the games I think are almost all of a similar level, and more representative of Bronze.
i'm not in bronze... but that being said i have several real life friends that are and they simply enjoy the game for what it is. not everyone needs to become a professional, i'd say its more important to have fun
Thanks for the bronze replays. Here's my comments.
Game 1 - This Protoss is the classic guy who knows how basic PvT is supposed to work ,but keeps forgetting basic macro tasks. Gets 2 gates, a robo, expands, adds more gates and colossi and 3 forges. But there's massive gaps in unit production, especially probes, and he never uses the 3 forges or twilight council for anything. At 7 minutes there's so SCVs and 26 probes, both at 32 food. At 15 minutes its 107 food to 129, and 41 probes to 38 SCVs, which is also when the first and final attack happens. I suppose another basic game knowledge error is that he doesn't add any chargealots and overbuilds stalkers and sentries, which is why he struggles to afford colossi. But mostly it looks like multitasking fail.
TvT game vs Virtue - This one does look odd. Fast factory that is idle for quite some time, then adds a tech lab which is also idle for some time, plus a fast CC that is also left idle. I guess it was a messed up siegetank expand? And he got supply blocked at 35. Both have 23 workers at 7:00. At 14:00 he's got 113 food of marinetankmedivac including 45 SCVs on 3 bases. He's not producing out of the factory and starport smoothly, probably cos they're not hotkeyed. He completely forgot stim and combat shields. Yet his biggest failing is probably not knowing how to handle his contain of their natural. But he's clearly outmacroing his opponent, yet its getting him nowhere, with over 10k more spent. Overall I'd say this game is a perfect counter to the "hurr durr just macro and A-move" argument.
On March 22 2012 19:26 Lorch wrote: Your rank doesn't indicate your skill, it doesn't tell how good you are, at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit.
Your rank is highly correlated with your chance of beating someone else of a different rank. That's the entire point of the system. So yeah, it does mean something.
There's a loose correlation when it starts coming to higher leagues or huge gaps in ranking, but your rank is by no means your skill.
On March 23 2012 03:10 milodon wrote: Not VERY often,but once in a while... most of them do probe rushes, or quit inmediatly if they not scout at close positions. And @nod, yes, Im sure that`s what happened, a lucky placement... it was very unusual, anyway. The rest of the games I think are almost all of a similar level, and more representative of Bronze.
I watched a couple o f replays very fast u seemed above plat level at the 7 minutes mark all the three games after some point (10 minutes generally) u will stop getting production scv and will get full of minerals and lacking an army most games dying or winning with 2-3k minerals in bank Think that is only problem ... edit: in all fairness if u switch to protoss and 4/7 gates all games i dont see u dont increasing 2 or 3 ranks ....
Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
I'm currently farming masterleague, starting from 200 point bronze. My main race is Zerg, but I expect 100% win ratio as random untill diamond, where people actually have more apm than they average base saturation. 90% of the games I've played below platinum are vs people who have close to zero understanding of the basic mechanics, who disconnects, win trades or goes afk. The last 10% are vs players who have some resemblance of an idea that works in theory but who lacks the ability to execute anything properly.
Strategy, multitasking or theoretical knowledge means absolutely nothing in bronze. I can go mass marine every single game regardless of what my opponent is doing and still win. I can take 5 bases before making a pool in ZvZ and still hold a 6/7/10/14 pool or any kind of all in my opponent might do. The different matchups don't matter either. All the races might as well be identical on that level, there is nothing strategical about anything that happens. Bronze players generally just do random nonsensical builds, like making random cannons or spines early game or halt their worker production for no reason. They have no concept of "the ideal game" or "optimized macro", they don't scout and if they do, they don't use the information at all. They have no goals, they just play. That's why they are bad, and will stay bad.
What amuses me in particular is how they 95% of the time will prefer a hidden expo to their natural, for reasons I don't fully grasp. They seem to think that this somehow puts them ahead, though having an expo usually hurts them more than doing any kind of 1base play.
To get past bronze and into "normal" games that can actually teach you how to play properly, all you need is a decent idea of what macro is. Those who begin to understand the basic macro mechanics and start practising them, will improve really fast and move out of bronze in no time. There is no excuse. There is no skill limit there. Imo the best advice for a bronze player that wants to improve is to spend his time in bronze focusing solely on his basic mechanics, getting used to optimized hotkey setups and efficient macro. While doing this he will eventually progress out of bronze and into games where he can actually learn from the interaction with his opponent and not just his own herpderp mistakes.
On March 23 2012 02:28 milodon wrote: For anyone who is still wondering what is the current level in bronze, this are my last TEN replays (no selection, 5 games today and 5 yesterday). THIS is bronze. And yes, some of the battles can be entertaining if you put some Benny Hill music in the background.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who plays Yakety Sax as background for their games.
Also, the terrible isn't just in bronze. I played a guy a few days ago who was plat. He went FFE vs terran, went for the super standard 8 minute gateway, proceeded to try going 4 stargate carriers off of 2 bases without building any other units. I'll dig up the replay after work tonight.
TvZ against Tuma. He does a standard 14 gas 14 pool, then does an expand. Adding a bane nest AND a roach warren seems odd tho. And accumulates nearly 500 gas without ever starting ling speed. So either clueless or terrible macro. 27 drones to 21 SCVs at 7 minutes, 34 to 32 food. Also an odd thing he does is try to scout with changelings instead of just saccing an overseer. At 14:00 its 102 food to 81 in favour of zerg, and 42 drones to 35 SCVs. But he ends up winning by amassing a large broodlord+muta force entirely unopposed.
Btw for milodon, if you want a nice easy TvZ strat, try Halby's Mineral Drill. Pretty much guarantees you get 200 food of SCVs and marines by 14:00, which will roll over any Zerg who's not good with infestors and banes, and before they get many broodlords.
TvT against Nerfed. I think he took 2nd gas too early for him to also expand, even if he's doing 1-1-1. 24 workers to Bennett's 20, and 33 food to 24. Has pretty terrible problems with supply blocking, but does a great demonstration of using superior army production to bruteforce past small tank defenses. Bennett never gets his 2nd base up, and not surprisingly loses in the end.
On March 23 2012 03:38 Pharnax wrote: Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
It's not a macro problem, it's not a scouting problem, it's playing-below-a-certain-skill-level problem (a skill level which gets constantly higher). A guy who was plat in 2010 probably wouldn't make it out of silver in 2012. Any generalizations about the level of play in bronze are inherently false. According to this handy chart the skill gap between a totally clueless noob and a top bronze player is larger than the skill gap between high bronze and low/mid diamond.
On March 23 2012 03:38 Pharnax wrote: Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
I'm currently farming masterleague, starting from 200 point bronze. My main race is Zerg, but I expect 100% win ratio as random untill diamond, where people actually have more apm than they average base saturation. 90% of the games I've played below platinum are vs people who have close to zero understanding of the basic mechanics, who disconnects, win trades or goes afk. The last 10% are vs players who have some resemblance of an idea that works in theory but who lacks the ability to execute anything properly.
Strategy, multitasking or theoretical knowledge means absolutely nothing in bronze. I can go mass marine every single game regardless of what my opponent is doing and still win. I can take 5 bases before making a pool in ZvZ and still hold a 6/7/10/14 pool or any kind of all in my opponent might do. The different matchups don't matter either. All the races might as well be identical on that level, there is nothing strategical about anything that happens. Bronze players generally just do random nonsensical builds, like making random cannons or spines early game or halt their worker production for no reason. They have no concept of "the ideal game" or "optimized macro", they don't scout and if they do, they don't use the information at all. They have no goals, they just play. That's why they are bad, and will stay bad.
What amuses me in particular is how they 95% of the time will prefer a hidden expo to their natural, for reasons I don't fully grasp. They seem to think that this somehow puts them ahead, though having an expo usually hurts them more than doing any kind of 1base play.
To get past bronze and into "normal" games that can actually teach you how to play properly, all you need is a decent idea of what macro is. Those who begin to understand the basic macro mechanics and start practising them, will improve really fast and move out of bronze in no time. There is no excuse. There is no skill limit there. Imo the best advice for a bronze player that wants to improve is to spend his time in bronze focusing solely on his basic mechanics, getting used to optimized hotkey setups and efficient macro. While doing this he will eventually progress out of bronze and into games where he can actually learn from the interaction with his opponent and not just his own herpderp mistakes.
The modus operandi in bronze is the more you surprise your opponent the more chance of winning you have.. Same with cloaked units or cheesy units. They like to think that they executed a "strategy" therefore they outsmarted their opponent. EZPZ.. send workers patrol em ninja expansions, build a standard unit comp.. Out of bronze EZPZ.
To all those saying bronzies have high apm.. LOL.. yes they do if they spam right click. macro still lousy as ever
On March 23 2012 03:38 Pharnax wrote: Being "stuck" in bronze is 100% a macro problem. There is no such thing as a certain match-up or cheese holding you back, this stuff doesn't exist in bronze at all. The amount of misconceptions regarding this league is astonishing.
It's not a macro problem, it's not a scouting problem, it's playing-below-a-certain-skill-level problem (a skill level which gets constantly higher). A guy who was plat in 2010 probably wouldn't make it out of silver in 2012. Any generalizations about the level of play in bronze are inherently false. According to this handy chart the skill gap between a totally clueless noob and a top bronze player is larger than the skill gap between high bronze and low/mid diamond.
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze. Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
On March 23 2012 04:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Continuing the look at milodon's replays
TvZ against Tuma. He does a standard 14 gas 14 pool, then does an expand. Adding a bane nest AND a roach warren seems odd tho. And accumulates nearly 500 gas without ever starting ling speed. So either clueless or terrible macro. 27 drones to 21 SCVs at 7 minutes, 34 to 32 food. Also an odd thing he does is try to scout with changelings instead of just saccing an overseer. At 14:00 its 102 food to 81 in favour of zerg, and 42 drones to 35 SCVs. But he ends up winning by amassing a large broodlord+muta force entirely unopposed..
I remember that game... my TvZ sucks. I can never put early agression, the zerg expand freely while a try to turtle in three bases. If he goes muta-ling, i actually do better if he uses his mutas to harass (I usually over-defend). If he doesnt, and just tech to brood-lords while saving his mutas I usually loose; even when I scout in time the greater spire, I never have enough vikings to deal with his corruptors and mutas AND I mess a lot with Marine micro and my marines lots of the time fight only broodlings. OR, I over comit to anti-air and get rolled by banelings. I remember the TvT vs Nerfed also. Those two games were very frustrating, even for my level I feel I played worse than usual.
On March 23 2012 04:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote: More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
OMG this things sound even worse when somebody else describes it. Im seriously considering quitting this thing, Im too bad.
Wanwan TvT(again). Does a strange 3rax push, researching conc shells first and moves out while stim is just starting. Still, only Bennett's hero banshee stops him from dying to it. Has 23 SCVs to bennett's 22, 38 food to 33. But loses quite a few to the reaper. Sadly he totally forgot about workers after the push failed and he had to defend against the cloaked banshee, and loses much later as a result.
On March 23 2012 04:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Continuing the look at milodon's replays
TvZ against Tuma. He does a standard 14 gas 14 pool, then does an expand. Adding a bane nest AND a roach warren seems odd tho. And accumulates nearly 500 gas without ever starting ling speed. So either clueless or terrible macro. 27 drones to 21 SCVs at 7 minutes, 34 to 32 food. Also an odd thing he does is try to scout with changelings instead of just saccing an overseer. At 14:00 its 102 food to 81 in favour of zerg, and 42 drones to 35 SCVs. But he ends up winning by amassing a large broodlord+muta force entirely unopposed..
I remember that game... my TvZ sucks. I can never put early agression, the zerg expand freely while a try to turtle in three bases. If he goes muta-ling, i actually do better if he uses his mutas to harass (I usually over-defend). If he doesnt, and just tech to brood-lords while saving his mutas I usually loose; even when I scout in time the greater spire, I never have enough vikings to deal with his corruptors and mutas AND I mess a lot with Marine micro and my marines lots of the time fight only broodlings. OR, I over comit to anti-air and get rolled by banelings. I remember the TvT vs Nerfed also. Those two games were very frustrating, even for my level I feel I played worse than usual.
Yah. Well that's why I like the 200 food mass marine push at 14:00. Very unlikely that Zerg will have enough broodies to stop you by then, and the pressure is on him to control his banes and/or infestors to stop you, cos nothing else will stop 100+ angry convicts with automatic rifles. Nerfed was probably one of the best Terrans of the lot so far. Your major problem was not getting your natural expo up when he got quite early, and your cloaked banshees didn't do enough damage to make up for it.
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze. Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
Ladder points are capped at your current MMR. You can mass games all you want, it won't do you any good, unless you actually improve by playing that much. You need to have silver or near-silver level MMR to be in top bronze, otherwise your ladder score will just stall at some point. For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all) and the division is topped by a guy who has 1/5th of his games and nearly twice his ladder points.
On March 23 2012 04:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote: More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
OMG this things sound even worse when somebody else describes it. Im seriously considering quitting this thing, Im too bad.
Well I certainly don't care what league people are in as long as they have fun there My personal opinion is that your reaper/banshee attacks are very hit and miss, sometimes they do ok, sometimes they die for nothing. Same goes for the marine drops. While your marine/tank/viking play consistently delivers, by smashing superior forces as they approach. The only time it fails, is when your opponent just has waaaaaay more stuff than you and attacks before you get a critical mass of tanks, as Nerfed did.
Does a 3rax build but takes 2gas so floats near 400 of it by 7:00. Still has 35 supply to Bennett's 27, and 22 workers to his 19. Tho in fairness Bennett has better tech and a 2nd OC floating to the natural. KJS pushes out and denies the expo, and contains it for a while, while getting his own expo up. Then keeps a solid 20-30 food lead, denies Bennett's third, and catches his army in transit and unsieged, wiping it out and ending the game. Again this guy looked pretty good compared to the rest, aside from the unneeded 2nd gas which would have let him expand sooner. Bennett's big mistake was letting himself get contained for too long and thus falling behind on econ, when he easily had enough marines to stomp KJS's army.
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze. Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all)
No shit, really? The worst strategy conceivable doesn't work against anyone who isn't in the worst league? Man, you could have saved me a lot of writing if you had just PMed me a few months ago. It all makes sense now!
Phasen PvT(woohoo!) Opens with a double gas steal plus pylon block which I've never seen before, then expands and puts cannons down?? Has 31 probes to 20 SCVs, and 37 food to 31 at 7:00. Spends about a minute scouting his opponent, establishing that the only place without mineral turrets is the ramp and natural, so he sends in 5 DTs and kills it. Sure he banks 4k resources during this, but oh well. He then transitions into building 6 forward pylons outside Bennett's natural ramp and putting down a hidden expo while reinforcing his army at his main. Sadly he loses his forward pylons, so Phasen of course transitions into the proxy triple robo + colossus den. Bennett does a nice doom drop in Phasen's main, where the Protoss' clever building placement funnels the stalkers and zealots into a killing zone for the marines and marauders. But while the base crumbles, Phasen's triple robos have begun colossus production... Stay tuned for part two, after the break.
On March 23 2012 05:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote: KJS TvT(sigh...)
Does a 3rax build but takes 2gas so floats near 400 of it by 7:00. Still has 35 supply to Bennett's 27, and 22 workers to his 19. Tho in fairness Bennett has better tech and a 2nd OC floating to the natural. KJS pushes out and denies the expo, and contains it for a while, while getting his own expo up. Then keeps a solid 20-30 food lead, denies Bennett's third, and catches his army in transit and unsieged, wiping it out and ending the game. Again this guy looked pretty good compared to the rest, aside from the unneeded 2nd gas which would have let him expand sooner. Bennett's big mistake was letting himself get contained for too long and thus falling behind on econ, when he easily had enough marines to stomp KJS's army.
Ok, Im going to keep with the sincerity, to let you all in into the secrets of a bronze mind: I never noticed that it was a contain (outside the natural). Really. For some reason I was sure he had turned back with his army; thats why he caught me on move comand.
For some time I only did one rax expand; I have some troubles especially against terran (I lost to tank pushes like the one Nerfed did), so Im trying to change it to a 1-1-1 (I only do it against terran). Im very sloopy with it, I try to harass first with only one reaper (mostly for scout) and then cloaked banshees. But, like you said... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't... I have a very hard time macroing while Im trying to harass. And reading your comments, it seems that I always miss SCVs really early; I think there isn`t a single time Im ahead in the worker count, is there? I guess Im not seeing the light at the end of the tunel, yet...
I stand by the idea that the best way to get out of bronze is learning to macro and getting faster. It will def help to get a build and start to understand it, but you wont learn timings, cuz other bronze are too bad to perform an optimized build perfectly. Get faster, learn to macro (if your zerg, DROOOOOONES) and scout. Scouting is cool, but not NEEDED. GOGO BRONZIES <3
His first base may be gone, but his 2nd lives on. After finishing up zealot leg speed, he of course proceeds to the next logical step, a new cyber core. A scouting party of marines are greeted with the horror of 5 colossi and a crapton of angry speedy zealots. Bennett engages with his main force, sadly discovering that PDDs do not stop colossus lasers(I didn't know this either!) Luckily his last line of defence holds, including an impressive missile turret that nearly solokills a colossus. Now its once again two base vs two base, 25 workers each, supply 54P 67 T at 24:53. The counterattack from Bennett is somewhat ineffective. Ever watch 2 marauders and 2 medivacs dueling two zealots? Its very slow! Bennett's natural is mined out, so he takes the 9 o clock base. Phasen has the advantage of a fresh main, but takes a 3rd the 2 o clock spawnpoint base anyway. Phasen's next attack doesn't go nearly as well, despite the novel idea of adding hallu colossi. Shoulda just brought more real ones mate. Oh and more zealots. Speaking of which, he sends in 4 zealots via proxy pylon to the 9 oclock base and thoroughly wrecks it. Bennett doom drops Phasen's main again, who prompty starts remaking everything at the 2 o clock soon to be new main base. The zealots are eventually driven away from 9 oclock base, and a mule drop stops the OC from burning down. Scratch that, he dropped a mule, but forgot to order it to repair Phasen tries to start again, but he's just too far behind. Not even chargealots and storm are able to stop the inevitable defeat, and he is forced to gg.
So um yeah, that's all of the replays. Ranging from "seriously dude what the hell are you doing" to "hmm that's kiiiiiindof a standard build except for these odd mistakes". I think maybe just Nerfed played somewhat standard.
No shit, really? The worst strategy conceivable doesn't work against anyone who isn't in the worst league? Man, you could have saved me a lot of writing if you had just PMed me a few months ago. It all makes sense now!
Hey dude, I'm not the one running a blog about how worker rushing works on "bronzers" "bronzies". If worker rushing worked on"bronzers" "bronzies" and not on a "certain percentage of bronzers bronzies who are particularly terrible and don't know how to counter it" then you'd be somewhere near the top, because you'd only be losing to silver level players. Pretty logical, ain't it?
(Not to mention the fact that you are in the bottom of bronze MMR-wise, given that there are like 5 people with 100+ wins in that division)
On March 23 2012 05:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote: KJS TvT(sigh...)
Does a 3rax build but takes 2gas so floats near 400 of it by 7:00. Still has 35 supply to Bennett's 27, and 22 workers to his 19. Tho in fairness Bennett has better tech and a 2nd OC floating to the natural. KJS pushes out and denies the expo, and contains it for a while, while getting his own expo up. Then keeps a solid 20-30 food lead, denies Bennett's third, and catches his army in transit and unsieged, wiping it out and ending the game. Again this guy looked pretty good compared to the rest, aside from the unneeded 2nd gas which would have let him expand sooner. Bennett's big mistake was letting himself get contained for too long and thus falling behind on econ, when he easily had enough marines to stomp KJS's army.
Ok, Im going to keep with the sincerity, to let you all in into the secrets of a bronze mind: I never noticed that it was a contain (outside the natural). Really. For some reason I was sure he had turned back with his army; thats why he caught me on move comand.
For some time I only did one rax expand; I have some troubles especially against terran (I lost to tank pushes like the one Nerfed did), so Im trying to change it to a 1-1-1 (I only do it against terran). Im very sloopy with it, I try to harass first with only one reaper (mostly for scout) and then cloaked banshees. But, like you said... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't... I have a very hard time macroing while Im trying to harass. And reading your comments, it seems that I always miss SCVs really early; I think there isn`t a single time Im ahead in the worker count, is there? I guess Im not seeing the light at the end of the tunel, yet...
Well actually I was referring to you not putting your natural CC back to work for quite a while, where you basically gave up your economic lead. And yes, in most games you seem to be missing workers if you're consistently behind your Terran opponents. Protoss and Zerg will generally be ahead due to chronoboost and larva, and them not needing to halt worker production for the Orbital upgrade. I can't really give you much good advice. Atm I'm just going mass marine every single game, and giving up TvT as a buildorder loss. Luckily tho I'm in silver, where Terran are extremely rare.
On March 23 2012 04:40 Monkeyballs25 wrote: More milodon games
Roldash TvT. Ok this guy definitely doesn't know what he's doing. 2nd depot at like 15 or something, and not part of a walloff. No OC when rax is done. So he's got 17 SCVs to bennett's 15 at 7:00, and only 25 food to 20. And he builds a hidden expo plus a sensor tower to give it away, and goes mass reaper well into the midgame. Bizzare. And he didn't gg!
Emotang TvT(good lord there's a lot of Terran in bronze). Extremely poor macro from Emotang, has 1k minerals at 6:22. Still has a food lead at 33 to 25 tho, and 25 SCVs to 17. Randomly walks half a dozen marines into Bennett's bunker+tank line. Queues 5 hellions on a factory with no addon. Queues up all the junk upgrades from the engi bay. Didn't know about medivac drops. So mark one down for the clueless bucket!
OMG this things sound even worse when somebody else describes it. Im seriously considering quitting this thing, Im too bad.
Don't quit But for god's sake switch race There is no coincidence of terran being dominant only on bronze ...
On March 23 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Phasen PvT, part two. His first base may be gone, but his 2nd lives on. After finishing up zealot leg speed, he of course proceeds to the next logical step, a new cyber core. A scouting party of marines are greeted with the horror of 5 colossi and a crapton of angry speedy zealots. Bennett engages with his main force, sadly discovering that PDDs do not stop colossus lasers(I didn't know this either!)
Haha, actually i did know. I was trying to trow turrets (I dont know the hotkey and, apparently, I dont know too well how the icon looks like). Well, I think that sums it up... thats bronze. Allthough I have the subjective impression that there were really more weird games than usual... I can play something that looks "standard-like" if the other player is playing pasive or playing standard too, but whit early agression or whenever something weird happens, I inmediatly enter into panic mode and mess all up. Well, I hope to advance some day. Do you have any conclussion after this trip to hell?
No shit, really? The worst strategy conceivable doesn't work against anyone who isn't in the worst league? Man, you could have saved me a lot of writing if you had just PMed me a few months ago. It all makes sense now!
Hey dude, I'm not the one running a blog about how worker rushing works on "bronzers". If worker rushing worked on "bronzers" and not on a "certain percentage of bronzers who are particularly terrible and don't know how to counter it" then you'd be somewhere near the top, because you'd only be losing to silver level players. Pretty logical, ain't it?
My preferred epithet is "bronzies," not "bronzers."
On March 23 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Phasen PvT, part two. His first base may be gone, but his 2nd lives on. After finishing up zealot leg speed, he of course proceeds to the next logical step, a new cyber core. A scouting party of marines are greeted with the horror of 5 colossi and a crapton of angry speedy zealots. Bennett engages with his main force, sadly discovering that PDDs do not stop colossus lasers(I didn't know this either!)
Haha, actually i did know. I was trying to trow turrets (I dont know the hotkey and, apparently, I dont know too well how the icon looks like). Well, I think that sums it up... thats bronze. Allthough I have the subjective impression that there were really more weird games than usual... I can play something that looks "standard-like" if the other player is playing pasive or playing standard too, but whit early agression or whenever something weird happens, I inmediatly enter into panic mode and mess all up. Well, I hope to advance some day. Do you have any conclussion after this trip to hell?
Hmm, conclusions. 1) There's waaaaaaaaaaaaay more Terrans than I expected. 2) TvT is probably the hardest one to win via pure macro, mainly cos of siegetanks and the lack of a simple counter to marine/tank/viking, other than a massive macro advantage. And even then you simply can't rush into a critical mass of siegetanks. Maybe try some ghost nuke or battlecruiser/viking shenanigans to secure the win at that point.
3) I really do think Halby's mineral drill would help you quite a bit. I doubt you'll lose another TvZ with it anyway.
4) Winning in TvT, I dunno. Macro better is easy advice to give, but hard to exectute.
I have a very hard time macroing while Im trying to harass.
You named it yourself. You know your weakness now you can practice and fix it. Or you can change build / race and forever have the weakness. It is as simple as that
Macro better is easy advice to give, but hard to exectute.
It is also the most correct advice. The problem is when new players ask for advices they usually really ask for insta-win-just-add-water recipe. Not everyone, not always, but usually. And looking for insta-win recipes is what really prevents them from improving.
Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions: - I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi) - I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears. I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
On March 23 2012 06:28 milodon wrote: Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions: - I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi) - I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears. I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
Thing is though, that 12 marine allin is pretty well known now and extremely easy to defend if you know it's coming... so it's a good thing you didn't like it because when you get out of bronze and silver, it wouldn't work anymore, while a 1/1/1 will work into masters if you're good at executing it. So i'd say you're on the right track.
If u permabronze u r most likely nowhere near the MMR border.. dont kid yourself.
Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze. Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
One should instead look at the opponent league as a better indicator of one's standing.
Ladder points are capped at your current MMR. You can mass games all you want, it won't do you any good, unless you actually improve by playing that much. You need to have silver or near-silver level MMR to be in top bronze, otherwise your ladder score will just stall at some point. For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all) and the division is topped by a guy who has 1/5th of his games and nearly twice his ladder points.
What exactly does this mean? I've been perma bronzed since starting this game back in Jan 2010. I play maybe 4 games a week. However recently I've made a concerted effort to mimize lapses in building SCVs, reducing supply blocks, and increasing scouting. I just made top 8 in my bronze league. I've got 19 wins this season but everyone above me has multiples of that in wins but not that many more points. Does this mean I'm improving?
On March 08 2012 18:31 Palmar wrote: Which is it? If you're looking to improve, you need to set yourself clear goals and work towards them, and one of those goals should be hitting a certain league. Another one can be to learn to execute to perfection one build order for each matchup. If you're just looking to have fun, truck on!
You cannot improve if you choose to settle, so no, it's not fine to accept that you're just a bronze level player if your goal is to improve.
But you also cannot improve unless you really want to, if you're too busy doing cool stuff and trying to be cute, like I am, you will not improve because you're not putting the effort in.
The way I see it is if you just play alot, you will improve. Even 1 hour per day will get you results. It just depends on what you do. Whether it be laddering or facing AI or replay analysis. Having fun is part of the game. If you aren't having fun,why are you playing? Even those cute builds have meaning behind them. Personally, I don't like laddering. I prefer to open up an AI game and get my basics down. Something as simple as : playing a game until 8 mins and seeing how many probes you can make while still making buildings.
I think in bronze level games, builds and timing aren't important. Reacting and scouting should be the main focus. I say this because, very few people in bronze can actually pull off the 4 gate that hits right on time. Builds should only be important once you hit gold/plat.
Focus on scouting and reacting and your play will increase within days. And if you scout 14 pool then do something cute like nexus first. The risk is still there, so is the fun yet it is a completely viable reaction.
Hello, upper platinum, lower diamond player here, long time lurker of TL.net
I am willing to help people that are currently bronze with 1 on 1 help, north american server ONLY. I can promise only that I will offer you advice, help your gameplay, play practice matches and all around try to push you to the next level to silver. I don't ask any payment (or donations, or anything at all!)
If you are interested, please PM me, and I will add you to my friends list, next time we are both online, we can see how to get you guys into silver. I honestly believe that I can take any bronze and help them get silver pretty fast (we shall see!).
Please be willing to actually listen/learn if you use this opportunity.
I think too many people get wrapped up in the Competitive nature of the game that they forget the sole purpose of gaming IS to have fun. And when people have fun and they may be naturally a bronze or gold or whatever that automatically they are thought of as not dedicated or no good, etc. Its a bad cliche that hits this communities members sometimes and some must realize that everyone is not a 18+ hour player. People do have lives and bills to pay. So if someone is interested in progressing help them, if not and they play for the enjoyment..dont hate - just play and gg!
On March 23 2012 06:28 milodon wrote: Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions: - I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi) - I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears. I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
Milodon you seem to have the right idea with your builds per matchup but you fail at executing them correctly. Either you forget stuff or not keep your minerals low enough. I think you should stick to simpler 1 base builds like 3 rax for all matchups. Keep doing this one build till you can win at least 70% of your games.
The point of this is not to all in your opponent every game but teach you how to properly execute builds. Bronze level players have very poor execution and generally do not know what a properly executed build is like. After you have learned how to properly execute builds then you may move on to more macro oriented builds. From there you'll be able to learn how to properly execute a macro build
[quote][QUOTE]On March 23 2012 12:44 HexSCII wrote: [QUOTE]On March 08 2012 18:31 Palmar wrote:
I think in bronze level games, builds and timing aren't important. Reacting and scouting should be the main focus. I say this because, very few people in bronze can actually pull off the 4 gate that hits right on time. Builds should only be important once you hit gold/plat. [/QUOTE] [/quote] If anything I'd say its the complete opposite. Looking at Bennett's opponents, almost all of them had serious but easily fixable flaws in their build orders that were causing them to build up too many minerals or too much gas very early. And many of them spent way too much of their focus on scouting. Particularly the Protoss microing his observer for almost a minute, and the Zerg microing a bunch of changelings.
On March 23 2012 06:28 milodon wrote: Thanks for watchingthe replays! My conclusions: - I think I will stick with 1-1-1 vs terran; I will try hard to keep the macro while harrasing, and I will eat a wasabi roll every time I miss and SCV before 10 min. Seriously, WTF is wrong with me and the worker count??(I hate wasabi) - I will stick to the 1 rax expand vs protoss and Zerg; the wasabi stuff also applies, and I just will try to outmacro. I will concentrate in that before trying to micro. One thing at the time. Oh, and will eat to wasabi rolls if a wild un-scouted brood lords (or 10) appears. I have seen tutorials of the mineral drill, but Im not sure... may be as a tool for improving macro? I will try it, but I really want to learn to execute decently a traditional build. For a period of time I started using the Geiko-Build (the marine rush with a supply depot drop that hits with 12 marines at 5:00, I think) and I got more wins than usual against protoss and terran, but it wasnt really that fun. And even with that build (that is suposed to be almost 100% succes in bronze), I managed to loose against zerg due to crappy micro. God, I hate zerglings.
You will be eating about 10 wasabi rolls every game I'm afraid. Doesn't seem realistic. Even masters players will miss a worker or 2 before 10 minutes.
I highly recommend you do not try any harrasement whatsoever, you should spend your extremely limited mechanical abilities on macro. You should also limit your scouting to the bare minimum, only use an SCV to check what your opponents' position is. Queue up the SCV that builds your first supply depot to check every position and then return home. Thats all, dont try to keep your SCV in his base. Macro. You may think you are able to do these things at the same time, but you are not, that is why you are in bronze. You should create an army that requires a minimum amount of thought and micro. Pure bio, possibly with a few medivacs is perfect for this.
This should get anyone out of bronze:
- Expand early. Expanding after 2 barracks with reactor and tech lab and 1 gas, works in all matchups, produce only marines untill your expansion has started building. In TvP and TvT you can rally your marines to your natural and make a bunker right after you start building your expansion. In TvZ you should build your expansion in base. Float it to your natural right after it is done and queue up 2 bunkers, move marines down when the bunkers are almost done.
- Pick an attack time and devote all of your APM to creating the largest possible army at that time without cutting SCVs. Somewhere between 10-12 minutes should be good. Practice this in single player, write down the supply count build order in notepad for the first 6 or so minutes, purely to as an excercise, don't try to read it during the game.
- While your army is a-moving towards your opponents base, send an SCV to build a command center at your second natural and queue up as many units and workers as you can.
- When your army is near your opponents base, stim and a-move (press a then click), do the absolute minimum amount of micro and go back to macro.
- If your opponent did not die, you probably have gone up to 1k+ minerals, you are bronze afterall. Get rid of it. Make sure all your production builds have 2 units queued up and use the remaining money to build supply depots and production buildings.
- Do a follow up attack once you have approximately the same amount of units you had in your first attack. And once again queue up an SCV to build a command center at a new base.
P.S. Alternatively you can do a 3-rax all-in every single game. You will be able to find a guide on it on this forum. Practice the build in single player untill you perfect it. This will literally win you 100% of your games untill you reach gold.
On March 22 2012 23:11 Monkeyballs25 wrote: 3) The nature vs nurture debate on SC2 skill. On one extreme, people who believe that otherwise normally functioning(ie not retarded in the original sense of the word) people might well be skillcapped in bronze. Vs people who assume they're all brain damaged or something.
My personal belief is that any person of average intelligence and physical capability certainly could be trained to get out of Bronze by a coach who knew what they were doing. I do also believe that there are people of average or better intelligence and physical capability who may not get out of Bronze if they're left to themselves to figure out how and what to do, or solely by watching videos and reading about the game.
Most likely, such people who are skill capped in Bronze probably have bad habits they haven't recognized, and having a more experienced player look at what they're doing and point them out may help quite a bit.
On March 23 2012 04:29 lazyitachi wrote: Your ladder point is a poor indication of ur MMR. That's what the noobs always quote when they say they high bronze. Just cause you play a lot and lots of points <> you are close to silver MMR.
Ladder points, not counting earned bonus points, converge on MMR if a player's playing enough games (where "enough" is probably keeping one's bonus pool at 0.) So yes, high-point bronze players are close to silver MMR.
This is obscured somewhat by the fact that lower league divisions have varying offsets in their mapping between MMR and point values.
On March 23 2012 04:57 TacticalBadger wrote: Ladder points are capped at your current MMR. You can mass games all you want, it won't do you any good, unless you actually improve by playing that much. You need to have silver or near-silver level MMR to be in top bronze, otherwise your ladder score will just stall at some point. For example, our friend Gheed is at a measly 13th position despite having 415 wins (guess worker rushing doesn't get you out of bronze after all) and the division is topped by a guy who has 1/5th of his games and nearly twice his ladder points.
What exactly does this mean? I've been perma bronzed since starting this game back in Jan 2010. I play maybe 4 games a week. However recently I've made a concerted effort to mimize lapses in building SCVs, reducing supply blocks, and increasing scouting. I just made top 8 in my bronze league. I've got 19 wins this season but everyone above me has multiples of that in wins but not that many more points. Does this mean I'm improving?
The quick version is that the game awards more points for wins until your point total corresponds to your opponent's MMR (which usually will be close to yours), then your wins will earn the same as your losses lose. This means that your points rapidly increase, at the start of the season, to a level that corresponds to your MMR.
Oh I am absolutely certain that a normally functioning human being's lowest possible "cap" on their skill is perhaps platinum.
Reasons:
- If sub-16 year old kids can get into masters, then you can at least get into plat (considering the gap between bronze and diamond = the gap between diamond and high masters).
- The best progamers in the world are progamers not because they are savants and geniuses, but because they work hard, and have perfect practice.
- The key to improving is to humble yourself and take a close look at what you're doing wrong. "I'm playing just fine, I only struggle with my micro, but my macro is perfect if I'm left alone! I just get flustered when they harass me." is what my gold friend says all the time. It's like saying you play chess perfectly as long as they don't kill your pieces.
I have two friends in Bronze, over 100 games each and both wonder why they have not advanced. Im high platinum and when we 1v1 for fun we can both macro without pressuring each other and when we engage my supply will almost be double his in some cases.
I started in Bronze, and your mechanics, APM, and macro are nowhere near being decent. The biggest mistake I see Bronzies and silvers do is try to micro like crazy while their income skyrockets. Just focus on macro and not getting supply blocked. Bronze is still bronze like it was when the game came out. Ive played my friends account nothing has changed.
Just focus on macro and you will get to gold. Then start focusing more on speed, scouting, and some micro.
On March 23 2012 23:37 noD wrote: I still dont get the resistance of bronzies to switch race ... xD
Its kinda simple really.
I'm new. There is lots of info and thigns to learn. There is differencies between the races. Doing little here and little there, atleast imo, is no point until you have atleast a pretty good idea how the game and races work.
Learning 3 different things at 1 time will be harder then learning 1. And while learning 1, u will have the chance to pick up some of the ideas about how to play the other 2 races.
Atleast that how I were thinking when I decided that I will use terran only and not touch zerg and protoss anymore until I feel I, not master, but atleast can handle terran ok.
Maybe I'll notice that terran is not for me but the playstyle of protoss seems to fit better after ahile. Then I can change. but atm, I dont ahve the knowledge to build decisions on, so I could have neded up with anything. Only real reason it became terran first, is that 2 I know use it too. They are almost as bad as me, but if we do 3s or something they might notice something I do completly wrong.
In the end I dont believe you can get the will to progress your play unless things feel right. For me, zerg feels wrong, and I dont really like the idea that nuking a pylon screws things up. But, as I said, thats just me without knowledge of the game. For the basics terran feels simple tho. Obvious things do obvious stuff. Think that might be a reason why many new play terran. i dont really believe that its because u play terran in the campaign, I had more or less decided to play protoss to get a change (well, I had decided that even before the game was released)
On March 23 2012 23:45 PeanutsNJam wrote: Oh I am absolutely certain that a normally functioning human being's lowest possible "cap" on their skill is perhaps platinum.
Reasons:
- If sub-16 year old kids can get into masters, then you can at least get into plat (considering the gap between bronze and diamond = the gap between diamond and high masters).
- The best progamers in the world are progamers not because they are savants and geniuses, but because they work hard, and have perfect practice.
- The key to improving is to humble yourself and take a close look at what you're doing wrong. "I'm playing just fine, I only struggle with my micro, but my macro is perfect if I'm left alone! I just get flustered when they harass me." is what my gold friend says all the time. It's like saying you play chess perfectly as long as they don't kill your pieces.
I'd like to point out that if everyone has the minimum capability of reaching a certain level, such as platinum in your comment, and everyone reaches that potential, than the players who are only capable of reaching the level of current platinum players will then be in bronze. Also, using one person as a basis for an entire population is not exactly the best comparison. The sub-16 year old player is merely an outlier, not an example of the population of SC2 gamers as a whole. However, I do agree with your statement that the key to improving is humbling oneself, as that has helped me reach new leagues on the SC2 ladder.
On March 23 2012 23:45 PeanutsNJam wrote: Oh I am absolutely certain that a normally functioning human being's lowest possible "cap" on their skill is perhaps platinum.
There's no such thing as a "platinum skill level". The lack of understanding of how the system works is astounding. Saying that most people can be platinum is saying that most people can have above-average skill. It's impossible by definition. You are platinum because your skill (or rather your MMR) is above average, relative to other players. If most players improve to your skill level, you will fall to gold, because gold is where the "average" players are.
On March 23 2012 23:45 PeanutsNJam wrote: Oh I am absolutely certain that a normally functioning human being's lowest possible "cap" on their skill is perhaps platinum.
There's no such thing as a "platinum skill level". The lack of understanding of how the system works is astounding. Saying that most people can be platinum is saying that most people can have above-average skill. It's impossible by definition. You are platinum because your skill (or rather your MMR) is above average, relative to other players. If most players improve to your skill level, you will fall to gold, because gold is where the "average" players are.
There's no such thing as a "platinum skill level". The lack of understanding of how the system works is astounding. Saying that most people can be platinum is saying that most people can have above-average skill. It's impossible by definition. You are platinum because your skill (or rather your MMR) is above average, relative to other players. If most players improve to your skill level, you will fall to gold, because gold is where the "average" players are.
I should have said "the current skill level in plat." I should also add that the plat cap is for people who are trying. I think the skill distribution will remain similar to what it is now despite "everybody is improving" because of the influx of new players and people who aren't trying to improve (there's nothing wrong with that).
On March 23 2012 23:45 PeanutsNJam wrote: Oh I am absolutely certain that a normally functioning human being's lowest possible "cap" on their skill is perhaps platinum.
There's no such thing as a "platinum skill level". The lack of understanding of how the system works is astounding. Saying that most people can be platinum is saying that most people can have above-average skill. It's impossible by definition. You are platinum because your skill (or rather your MMR) is above average, relative to other players. If most players improve to your skill level, you will fall to gold, because gold is where the "average" players are.
I think he's not saying everybody should be at least platinum, because that's obviously ridiculous as you pointed out. But assuming other bronzies-silver stay at their current level (casual playing so they don't play much and with much less thought than higher players), you should be able to rise above them (considering SC2's current bronze skill level) and place at platinum if you work hard enough towards it. I also think that's reasonable. Platinum is no rocket science, really, if you're not completely dumb or physically hindered.
I think he meant that you can at least learn that proxy engineering bay rush (seen in a bronze game) is not a good build and that building workers help your economy, if you're willing to do it and don't play SC2 just for the campaign or Star Jeweled.
I predict that it won't be true anymore in SC2's further years of life, where casuals will have all quit for a long time and that bronze will be like diamond level from today :D.
I think he's not saying everybody should be at least platinum, because that's obviously ridiculous as you pointed out. But assuming other bronzies-silver stay at their current level (casual playing so they don't play much and with much less thought than higher players), you should be able to rise above them (considering SC2's current bronze skill level) and place at platinum if you work hard enough towards it..
I bolded the big assumption. That assumption is most definitely not going to be true. The general skill level in the scrub leagues increases over time, partly because the general body of players do improve over time, and partly because the players who drop out are disproportionately from the lower leagues. I've definitely heard a lot of anecdotal evidence that suggests that this effect is happening in sc2 (as it did with BroodWar - the scrub leagues in iCCup were utterly brutal to an average gamer, just before sc2 was launched.)
After over a year of ladder, it's not all that absurd to perceive apparent similarities among the leagues, while they no doubt change over time, from personal experience I would say that "platinum level play" is when players are comfortable enough with the game to execute a coherent 1 or 2 base strategy for the first 10-15 in game minutes. As I moved up through the leagues, people went from smashing the keyboard intermittently, acting much like an easy computer by building 10-15 workers and then occasionally sending waves of random units, to smashing the keyboard desperately hoping they could get as many of their favorite unit out in time to kill me, and it isn't really until Gold that a noticed players doing more than 1 of the Trinity of Starcraft (scouting/expanding/attacking)
Assuming that most people who don't play for 8 hours a day will "plateau" at a similar skill level, then the longer the game is on the market, the more "average" players it will have. If 60% of the population starts playing at a near-similar skill level, then it will be almost impossible for a new player to get out of bronze without putting in a sh*tton of work, because actual skill difference between silver and high plat/low diamond will be almost non-existant, so he will effectively have to play at a near-diamond level to get promoted.
This reminds me of my experience playing sf4. I love playing the game but I'm not THAT into it to start going into the specific strategies and tactics required to rise above a noob player. I haven't bothered to learn move priorities, spacing, tech throwing, cross ups. block strings, juggle systems, etc. I've been playing Street Fighter since sf2 snes but some of the lingo I hear in SF streams and vids still confuses the hell out of me.
Am I depressed that I am stuck at the bronze level equivalent of Street Fighter? No. Like I said, I love the playing the game. I also like playing chess but I'm just a 1500ish player, even though I've been playing it for years. I don't plan on quitting both games just because I am mediocre at them.
On March 23 2012 23:37 noD wrote: I still dont get the resistance of bronzies to switch race ... xD
Because we've made so much progress with our main race.
Even if you're being sarcastic, you're correct. Learning all the hotkeys, basic build orders and unit control takes time. Even if they're still bad at it by the end, they'd be even worse with a new race. Unless the new race suits their skills or lack thereof better. Now as a counter argument, I think race switching can be good as it broadens your perspective. I've played both Z and T, so now TvZ is one of my favourite matchups. And some people might just have picked the wrong race at the start. Certainly if you like macro and hate multitasking, Terran is probably the worst one to pick.
step 1: Pick the race you want step 2: Look for an unit composition that is just awesome (MM,Roach/Hydra,Zealot/Stalker) step 3: Start game, produce constant workers/supply and concentrate on building units, expand whenever you can. Every 5 min do an a-click into opponents base. If you get more than 500 minerals punch yourself in the face.
On March 23 2012 23:45 PeanutsNJam wrote: Oh I am absolutely certain that a normally functioning human being's lowest possible "cap" on their skill is perhaps platinum.
Reasons:
- If sub-16 year old kids can get into masters, then you can at least get into plat (considering the gap between bronze and diamond = the gap between diamond and high masters).
- The best progamers in the world are progamers not because they are savants and geniuses, but because they work hard, and have perfect practice.
I don't think any of us have any real idea of how much normal variation limits one's ability to multitask at the level needed to play SC2 at a plat or better level. A person might inherently lack the response speed or ability to redirect their attention fast enough to play at that level and yet still be within the middle 60-ish % of all adults, which is close enough to the mean to not be considered "deficient" in a medical sense, for example.
Just because we happen to have a self-selected internet forum here made up of people who disproportionately exceed that standard doesn't mean that's the norm, or that our personal experiences are very informative about what the norm is.
Edit: PeanutsNJam, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that that's a question we're not really equipped to answer here. And, even if the average person might find it difficult to exceed platinum, it's very possible that someone one standard deviation below average wouldn't make it out of bronze with any amount of effort.
Note also that even if the average video game player were skill-capped at bronze, those people would be highly disproportionately likely to walk away from the game rather than bang their heads against something at which they don't feel very successful.
(By the way, I'm speaking of the difficulty for one new player, today, to hit those leagues, Obviously if everyone currently playing the game decided to apply themselves aggressively to improving, the average skill cap would certainly wind up mid-gold, at about the 50th percentile. )
Edit 2: Long as we're talking about our own personal experiences, of my 20 or so real-life friends who spent any appreciable time playing Starcraft 2, I'd say maybe 15 never made it past bronze league and quit. Of the 5 or so who still play, they're all generally silver through gold. There was one diamond player who seems to have quit also. I would say none of these bronze players ever got to the point of playing enough to improve.
On March 24 2012 01:37 PeanutsNJam wrote: influx of new players
Based on available sales figures, Starcraft 2 will likely average about 1000 copies a month this year. Many of these copies are second accounts for existing players who have used up name changes or copies for people who will never play the game in multiplayer.
There's really no influx of new players. Heart of the Swarm will likely change that, of course.
Watching Day9, following the pro-scene, and reading up amazing strategies won't help anyone that is anywhere under platinum since mechanics, micro and macro should normally be the real problem.
I have been top 8 platinum on NA for a year now, and the main reasons I didn't get promoted are: - Sloppy macro - Micro blunders
My mechanics have been getting better lately since I've been practicing a little more, and I can see myself getting promoted soon since my win rate is getting over 70%, but that the only reason I'm getting out of plat... I am finally working out the basics.
So in my own experience, Day9 is fun, love watching pro matches... But it doesn't help me as a player, gotta work on the basics before worrying about amazing strats.
On March 24 2012 01:37 PeanutsNJam wrote: influx of new players
Based on available sales figures, Starcraft 2 will likely average about 1000 copies a month this year. Many of these copies are second accounts for existing players who have used up name changes or copies for people who will never play the game in multiplayer.
There's really no influx of new players. Heart of the Swarm will likely change that, of course.
Hahahahahahahahaha source? If no source then please tell me where and when your next comedy act is.
I'm probably around Bronze level, I have been playing LoL since season 2 of Starcraft 2 started and I had just hit gold (after a lot of hard work). I want to get into it again, but I am not confident I will do well. Just doing AI's until I re-learn the controls. Last game, I got supply blocked at 24 and average unspent resources were like 600 For stuff other than basic controls, do you think it would be better to do that versing actual people? I was 8 mins into the game vs a hard and I didn't even get attacked!
Also, my mate (Masters) told me that bronze - diamond is all about the same because the people who were really bad just stopped playing the game and that even low level play is a lot harder than it used to be, is this true?
On March 25 2012 18:38 Lorken wrote: I'm probably around Bronze level, I have been playing LoL since season 2 of Starcraft 2 started and I had just hit gold (after a lot of hard work). I want to get into it again, but I am not confident I will do well. Just doing AI's until I re-learn the controls. Last game, I got supply blocked at 24 and average unspent resources were like 600 For stuff other than basic controls, do you think it would be better to do that versing actual people? I was 8 mins into the game vs a hard and I didn't even get attacked!
Also, my mate (Masters) told me that bronze - diamond is all about the same because the people who were really bad just stopped playing the game and that even low level play is a lot harder than it used to be, is this true?
I'm platinum, and I play against my bronze friends, and sometimes their bronze - gold friends want to play against me, and I can honestly do anything and still win. I cant see myself ever losing to them. So no, they're not all the same. Your friend being in masters probably hasn't been in lower leagues for a while.
Also I'd say to just ladder as much as you can. Losses don't really matter since you can't see them anymore. Your mmr will eventually get to where you actually are, and you can just work your way back up by practicing on ladder.
On March 25 2012 18:38 Lorken wrote: I'm probably around Bronze level, I have been playing LoL since season 2 of Starcraft 2 started and I had just hit gold (after a lot of hard work). I want to get into it again, but I am not confident I will do well. Just doing AI's until I re-learn the controls. Last game, I got supply blocked at 24 and average unspent resources were like 600 For stuff other than basic controls, do you think it would be better to do that versing actual people? I was 8 mins into the game vs a hard and I didn't even get attacked!
Also, my mate (Masters) told me that bronze - diamond is all about the same because the people who were really bad just stopped playing the game and that even low level play is a lot harder than it used to be, is this true?
I am a Zerg user, and I was able to win pretty much all my games in bronze and silver without attacking using anything other than nukes. This is really hard to do in diamond and would actually lose me some games if I attempted it, although still possible if you try hard enough. But in silver and bronze it is really easy. So no, they're not the same at all.
On March 25 2012 10:21 Creekman wrote: step 1: Pick the race you want step 2: Look for an unit composition that is just awesome (MM,Roach/Hydra,Zealot/Stalker) step 3: Start game, produce constant workers/supply and concentrate on building units, expand whenever you can. Every 5 min do an a-click into opponents base. If you get more than 500 minerals punch yourself in the face.
Gold in 1 week.
Works fine against zerg as is, works fine against protoss if you add vikings lategame, pretty much an autoloss against Terran cos of siegetanks. Current record is 10-4. TvZ 5-1 TvP 5-1 TvT 0-2
Currently solidly in the middle of silver MMR, I'll let you know if it gets me into gold
I got boarding school so I just got out of bronze after a small 3 day gaming session over the holidays. Now I find that I am far beyond silver in my physical dexterity and macro but I just don't play enough games to progress I play 20 games this weekend ad went 18/20 playing against high gold and low play players but am not being promoted my knowledge of the game is quite good the only thing that I suffer in is micro but that can be improved anyone have this problem that you win alot but don't play consistently ..??
I've had the game for a year. I've only played about 160 games, but I'm Platinum. I really don't play enough to get out of Platinum yet, but I'm working on that. The way I got up to Platinum in so few games is by TRYING to improve. I watch my replays and study my mistakes. I also play much faster than most of my opponents so that may count for something. I think I'll reach Diamond before I reach 200 wins. It's all about how much you try to improve; playing a lot of games will advance you through the leagues, but if you're not trying to improve then you simply will not.
On March 25 2012 19:25 freakhill wrote: MMM should be enough to win TvT at silver/gold level (it's what i do)
Do you just A-move or get all fancy with drops?
drop make concaves and surround the important part to crush tanks is to expand a lot (at low tank count he cant really get out except drop) and to always know where is tank are (dont let him siege in your face). i simply took dappolo video guide tutorial build for pure bio. it's easy to use and very effective. at our level of play mech user mess up too much to crush that style
On March 25 2012 14:08 willoc wrote: Hahahahahahahahaha source? If no source then please tell me where and when your next comedy act is.
I misread the numbers. (To be clear, read the 2012 numbers as 2011.) They're higher (maybe 10k a month), but still not enough to make a huge difference in the number of people playing multiplayer. Sales are dropping about 80% per year.
There are a couple of funny stories here about "friends in bronze". Doesn't really mean anything, though.
On March 25 2012 14:07 eden-san wrote: Watching Day9, following the pro-scene, and reading up amazing strategies won't help anyone that is anywhere under platinum since mechanics, micro and macro should normally be the real problem.
I have been top 8 platinum on NA for a year now, and the main reasons I didn't get promoted are: - Sloppy macro - Micro blunders
My mechanics have been getting better lately since I've been practicing a little more, and I can see myself getting promoted soon since my win rate is getting over 70%, but that the only reason I'm getting out of plat... I am finally working out the basics.
So in my own experience, Day9 is fun, love watching pro matches... But it doesn't help me as a player, gotta work on the basics before worrying about amazing strats.
Day9 does cover some micro, macro and mechanics too. Just FYI. Facts are not just fun, but required in a discussion.
On March 25 2012 14:07 eden-san wrote: Watching Day9, following the pro-scene, and reading up amazing strategies won't help anyone that is anywhere under platinum since mechanics, micro and macro should normally be the real problem.
I have been top 8 platinum on NA for a year now, and the main reasons I didn't get promoted are: - Sloppy macro - Micro blunders
My mechanics have been getting better lately since I've been practicing a little more, and I can see myself getting promoted soon since my win rate is getting over 70%, but that the only reason I'm getting out of plat... I am finally working out the basics.
So in my own experience, Day9 is fun, love watching pro matches... But it doesn't help me as a player, gotta work on the basics before worrying about amazing strats.
Day9 does cover some micro, macro and mechanics too. Just FYI. Facts are not just fun, but required in a discussion.
I didn't say Day9 didn't cover the basics, but the difference between the basics and the current metagame is that you can't study/analyze your way out of it, only relentless and targeted practice will improve it... And personally I learn much more basics and tricks from pros streaming (who clearly focus on specific details of their plays) rather than Day9 (and don't get me wrong, I think Day9 is amazing as a person and I really love watching his stream).
I know for a fact that I'm not a natural Bronze, because I've been playing bronzies for months on end, doing incessant research, and have won precisely ONE game.: Blizzard needs to establish a Zinc bracket for people with superannuated reflexes, and who still curse the absence of a "PAUSE" button to scratch one's chin, pour a drink, and try to recall which antagonist's unit does what.
On March 26 2012 12:17 Jhimmibhob wrote: I know for a fact that I'm not a natural Bronze, because I've been playing bronzies for months on end, doing incessant research, and have won precisely ONE game.: Blizzard needs to establish a Zinc bracket for people with superannuated reflexes, and who still curse the absence of a "PAUSE" button to scratch one's chin, pour a drink, and try to recall which antagonist's unit does what.
There is a pause button! Go for it! The worst that can happen is your opponent unpauses! :D
On March 25 2012 19:25 freakhill wrote: MMM should be enough to win TvT at silver/gold level (it's what i do)
The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level.
On March 08 2012 19:51 Gheed wrote: No. Everyone in bronze sits on one base (sometimes 2 if they are a zerg), doesn't scout beyond an initial worker, and never moves out. The only time you ever get "cheesed" in bronze is a poorly executed 6 pool or a cannon rush. For the latter, they usually they have no idea how to actually cannon rush so they just walk in your base and try to build them right in front of you or something dumb like that. For the 6 pool, they generally just attack move (or whatever it is they do, since bronze players evidently don't know how to attack move) and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. If they were actually cheesing correctly they wouldn't be in bronze.
Further, anyone who portrait farms and actually plays out the games must lose just as many games to stay in bronze. So, there is no reason to be "stuck in bronze." Period. The reason everyone says to just macro your way out is because IT'S TRUE. Bronze is just as bad as it ever was. People who try to justify their bronziness by arguing that "players have gotten better," are just trying to come up with excuses.
I don't know when you last played in Bronze, but the only accurate statement in that post is that very rarely do players scout beyond their initial worker (if that). Players will still (if the game goes on for long enough) expo to 3 or 4 bases, and are aggressive. Typical 6pools are micro'd and cannon rushes are built such that if you don't have a well placed OL or well timed drone scout, you'll miss it. Of course you'll sometimes run into the guy who's brand new to the game and doesn't know what he's doing, but that's because it's Bronze league and that's where new players end up.
I dislike the saying "macro your way out". Just because high level players can macro at such an advanced level by comparison and win by just building queens or something doesn't mean that it's the answer for lower level players. It's pretty obvious that if a Bronze level player could macro like a Diamond+ level player, they wouldn't be in Bronze very long. The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
On March 25 2012 21:06 Zythius wrote: There are a couple of funny stories here about "friends in bronze". Doesn't really mean anything, though.
On March 25 2012 14:07 eden-san wrote: Watching Day9, following the pro-scene, and reading up amazing strategies won't help anyone that is anywhere under platinum since mechanics, micro and macro should normally be the real problem.
I have been top 8 platinum on NA for a year now, and the main reasons I didn't get promoted are: - Sloppy macro - Micro blunders
My mechanics have been getting better lately since I've been practicing a little more, and I can see myself getting promoted soon since my win rate is getting over 70%, but that the only reason I'm getting out of plat... I am finally working out the basics.
So in my own experience, Day9 is fun, love watching pro matches... But it doesn't help me as a player, gotta work on the basics before worrying about amazing strats.
Day9 does cover some micro, macro and mechanics too. Just FYI. Facts are not just fun, but required in a discussion.
I didn't say Day9 didn't cover the basics, but the difference between the basics and the current metagame is that you can't study/analyze your way out of it, only relentless and targeted practice will improve it... And personally I learn much more basics and tricks from pros streaming (who clearly focus on specific details of their plays) rather than Day9 (and don't get me wrong, I think Day9 is amazing as a person and I really love watching his stream).
Watching pros replays, you won't really pick up many BASICS, I'd say. Most pros (if they talk at all) are focusing on higher level analysis of the games.
I enjoy Day9 for basic stuff. I rarely watch the actual game analysis, but rather focus on his dailies about practice, macro, mouse movement, etc.
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze.
On March 25 2012 19:25 freakhill wrote: MMM should be enough to win TvT at silver/gold level (it's what i do)
The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level.
Why should macro always the problem, if most of the people don't survive the first 8 minutes of the game?
On March 26 2012 12:17 Jhimmibhob wrote: I know for a fact that I'm not a natural Bronze, because I've been playing bronzies for months on end, doing incessant research, and have won precisely ONE game.: Blizzard needs to establish a Zinc bracket for people with superannuated reflexes, and who still curse the absence of a "PAUSE" button to scratch one's chin, pour a drink, and try to recall which antagonist's unit does what.
Man, I would love to see one of your replays.
I helped another guy before who I think had your same problem, if I had to guess. He analyzed things far past the point he needed to, focusing on things that, on a scale of 1-100 of importance, I'd say were about a 2 or 3, oblivious to all the 100's!
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
On March 25 2012 19:25 freakhill wrote: MMM should be enough to win TvT at silver/gold level (it's what i do)
The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level.
Why should macro always the problem, if most of the people don't survive the first 8 minutes of the game?
They don't survive because their macro is terrible. It's not just making a ton of stuff at once, macro is about efficiently getting resources and infrastructure too.
On March 25 2012 19:25 freakhill wrote: MMM should be enough to win TvT at silver/gold level (it's what i do)
The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level.
The fact remains that spamming nothing but marines as Terran is far more successful against Zerg, moderately more successful against Protoss, and not very successful at all against another Terran.
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze.
It doesn't sound like you have played in Bronze.
Bronze is a different type of league... to be honest, I had a more consistent experience when I was Gold. I still have no idea why I was demoted to Bronze, but it's like a black hole. Sure, I can walk all over some people, but then I get absolutely crushed by players who are probably portrait farming.
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze.
It doesn't sound like you have played in Bronze.
Bronze is a different type of league... to be honest, I had a more consistent experience when I was Gold. I still have no idea why I was demoted to Bronze, but it's like a black hole. Sure, I can walk all over some people, but then I get absolutely crushed by players who are probably portrait farming.
It is posts like these that keep me coming back to this thread. It's just too darn interesting.
The same thing happened when I used to play Halo competitively, except back then, it was much harder to find quality practice partners. Everybody thought they were good. Everybody. The problem was, almost nobody actually was. So, you could tell someone why they were bad and what they needed to fix, but it was much easier for them to say that you were wrong and they were just having a bad day. There was no bronze league so everyone was grandmaster in their own mind.
I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm better on a team." It became our team's inside joke.
edit: The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not playing portrait farmers every other game, the sooner you can get better. You are doing something wrong, and it's huge. Bronze players aren't doing something small wrong. They're doing some very wrong, and they're doing it well. I'm seriously not trying to be mean, but let's not kid ourselves. If you're on TL, you probably want to get better, so the first step is to admit you have a big problem.
Hi guys... I just wanted to do an update to the people who took the time (and pain) to watch my replays (I posted a bunch of them some days ago in this forum). The comments helped me a lot; I corrected a few things, started a winning streak and today I was promoted to silver! So Im not perma-bronze after all...
On March 27 2012 04:04 milodon wrote: Hi guys... I just wanted to do an update to the people who took the time (and pain) to watch my replays (I posted a bunch of them some days ago in this forum). The comments helped me a lot; I corrected a few things, started a winning streak and today I was promoted to silver! So Im not perma-bronze after all...
Damn it took time.
Whoa! Nice dude! Post some more replays and you will be Gold in no time
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze.
It doesn't sound like you have played in Bronze.
Bronze is a different type of league... to be honest, I had a more consistent experience when I was Gold. I still have no idea why I was demoted to Bronze, but it's like a black hole. Sure, I can walk all over some people, but then I get absolutely crushed by players who are probably portrait farming.
It is posts like these that keep me coming back to this thread. It's just too darn interesting.
The same thing happened when I used to play Halo competitively, except back then, it was much harder to find quality practice partners. Everybody thought they were good. Everybody. The problem was, almost nobody actually was. So, you could tell someone why they were bad and what they needed to fix, but it was much easier for them to say that you were wrong and they were just having a bad day. There was no bronze league so everyone was grandmaster in their own mind.
I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm better on a team." It became our team's inside joke.
edit: The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not playing portrait farmers every other game, the sooner you can get better. You are doing something wrong, and it's huge. Bronze players aren't doing something small wrong. They're doing some very wrong, and they're doing it well. I'm seriously not trying to be mean, but let's not kid ourselves. If you're on TL, you probably want to get better, so the first step is to admit you have a big problem.
I'm just going by what I've personally seen. When I was in Gold, I had a nice, consistent experience. When I lost, 95% of the time it was a great game, and I just got outplayed. When I won, I felt good about it. I dialed in on what these games felt like and you can't really do that in Bronze, because there's such a variation between games.
One ZvT, the guy had every unit. It was like that SOTG with Artosis complaining about that. "HOW DO YOU COUNTER EVERY UNIT? THERE IS NO COUNTER"
Anyway, needless to say, the guy had no idea what he was doing and I was able to easily kill off his expos as they came up and then push through his main and win.
My first game after my 5 placement matches was a ZvZ against a plat player, which I felt good about and won with muta/ling handily.
But now that I'm in Bronze, I come across players who I end up beating with my scouting lings just because they're already so far behind, and then I come across players who hit timing attacks and run me over.
EDIT: I played competitive Halo too, and I definitely know what you mean about that collective mindset. I admitted I was shit though, because I always got run over by a couple of my friends who were way better than I was.
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing.
This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze.
It doesn't sound like you have played in Bronze.
Bronze is a different type of league... to be honest, I had a more consistent experience when I was Gold. I still have no idea why I was demoted to Bronze, but it's like a black hole. Sure, I can walk all over some people, but then I get absolutely crushed by players who are probably portrait farming.
It is posts like these that keep me coming back to this thread. It's just too darn interesting.
The same thing happened when I used to play Halo competitively, except back then, it was much harder to find quality practice partners. Everybody thought they were good. Everybody. The problem was, almost nobody actually was. So, you could tell someone why they were bad and what they needed to fix, but it was much easier for them to say that you were wrong and they were just having a bad day. There was no bronze league so everyone was grandmaster in their own mind.
I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm better on a team." It became our team's inside joke.
edit: The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not playing portrait farmers every other game, the sooner you can get better. You are doing something wrong, and it's huge. Bronze players aren't doing something small wrong. They're doing some very wrong, and they're doing it well. I'm seriously not trying to be mean, but let's not kid ourselves. If you're on TL, you probably want to get better, so the first step is to admit you have a big problem.
I'm just going by what I've personally seen. When I was in Gold, I had a nice, consistent experience. When I lost, 95% of the time it was a great game, and I just got outplayed. When I won, I felt good about it. I dialed in on what these games felt like and you can't really do that in Bronze, because there's such a variation between games.
One ZvT, the guy had every unit. It was like that SOTG with Artosis complaining about that. "HOW DO YOU COUNTER EVERY UNIT? THERE IS NO COUNTER"
Anyway, needless to say, the guy had no idea what he was doing and I was able to easily kill off his expos as they came up and then push through his main and win.
My first game after my 5 placement matches was a ZvZ against a plat player, which I felt good about and won with muta/ling handily.
But now that I'm in Bronze, I come across players who I end up beating with my scouting lings just because they're already so far behind, and then I come across players who hit timing attacks and run me over.
EDIT: I played competitive Halo too, and I definitely know what you mean about that collective mindset. I admitted I was shit though, because I always got run over by a couple of my friends who were way better than I was.
I read what I posted again, and I admit, it sounded harsh. It's not any less true, I just sounded like a jerk. So, my bad :/
Anyway, I've taught all my friends how to play almost every game we've ever played. Call me good at video games, lol, what a gift, right? Almost every time, there is some strategical "elephant in the room" that they just cannot see. Somehow they are blind to it. When I say, "Uh, dude, what about that elephant...?" they, a lot of times <jaw drop> "wat. wow." It just literally never occurred to them.
I'd watch your replays if you cared to share
This thread is just funny because it reminded me of back when my team was one of the top halo teams in the nation. I'm not dropping names, just saying. We'd go to some rinky dink local tournament that nobody was at except other locals and we'd smash their faces. Most people would say, "WOW, they're so goood." It was usually 2nd place that said something like, "They're not that good. They got lucky. And all they used was rockets." or something like that.
We left so many teams in disarray. They knew they were going to win, and then they didn't - not even close. What was funny is that they even got to watch us play beforehand, and would openly say we weren't any good. They were only waving the flag of ignorance, though. They would watch us do things, but they didn't know why we would do it. For instance, we might throw a grenade down the hall. All they saw was us miss or "waste" a grenade, not knowing that we were a.clearing up a shadow where people like to snipe from, b. make noise in that room only to double back and enter the other way, c. purposely showing the opponent that that hallway was dangerous and we knew they were there, so they would run the other way (basically herding cattle).
It depended on the situation, but those things were happening every second. They just didn't know it because they weren't good enough to. They thought they could just copy our routes or camping spots or shooting techniques (call them build orders) and they'd be at our level.
Strategy comes in different levels. What I see a lot is newer players listening to state of the game or whatever and picking up on high level ideas that they couldn't possibly implement correctly because they don't have the foundation to place them on. This is a crude example, but it's pertinent. I've seen players be told to macro and don't let their minerals get "above 500." So, what do they do? Easy. They stop building so many workers. lol? I've also seen them answer that question a different way. They queue up all their racks full of units so that they're more backed up than Tokyo in rush hour. They're fixing a major problem of wasted minerals by breaking an even more important rule of "build more scvs; build more infrastructure." They are building a pyramid up-side down. You don't become a pro by doing the few things that make them pros. You become a pro by doing all the big things that separate them from the masses before they even develop their in-game personality. In short: learn the basics first. They're the fastest way to get good.
There's just way too much to say. I'm going to stop now, hah.
I didn't really read this whole thread, I was reading it up to 5 (?) pages when it first started, but now I read the last couple of pages.
I personally started playing a month and a half ago; give or take a few days, and I'm already in gold (EU). I got promoted yesterday though, but in general I stayed in bronze for 2 weeks, I play on my friend's old account, he was in silver, so since i laddered when I had 0 info about anything (first RTS) I demoted it to bronze since the start of the newest season (6 I believe).
And from there I slowly worked my way up, I had some friends help me out, but not so much, only when I get really stuck on some TvX and can't figure out what to do, I guess its because I'm generally a competitive player, successful @ cs 1.6 / DotA on a national level, but I just switched to sc2 because its easier to practice (solo!) and I find it extremely enjoyable.
Some people are still in bronze simply because they don't really care about BO's and macroing properly, they just play however they see fit, they're the person in-charge of their own gameplay, they don't want to follow certain steps like macroing properly and what not, they do whatever they feel like doing at any given moment; Oh, I have 100 gold @ 9/11, sure, I'll just go make a depot, then I'll make rax at 11, skipping my SCV, just because I have 150 gold. And so on.
Nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't expect to be making a living out of it, its all good. IMO.
#Edit: A guy helped me out at the very beggining, telling what to build and when while we played 2v2, HUGE respect for that guy, as I got the impression that the community in general is good mannered, and he was very helpful.
I don't like to think of myself as cruel enough to inflict that kind of thing on a person! But if I figure out the how-tos, I might take you up on it.
On March 27 2012 00:57 danl9rm wrote: I helped another guy before who I think had your same problem, if I had to guess. He analyzed things far past the point he needed to, focusing on things that, on a scale of 1-100 of importance, I'd say were about a 2 or 3, oblivious to all the 100's!
I can believe it--the frills seem easier to communicate on a replay or tournament commentary, and I'm sure they can make all the difference between two high-level players. It seems to be the ultra-basic stuff that's hard to explain, and that a player either grasps in a flash or doesn't grasp at all. Pretty much all the advice & resources out there target players who've mastered that much on their own.
But not everyone's cut out for Silver, or even the mid-upper Bronze reaches.
Strategy comes in different levels. What I see a lot is newer players listening to state of the game or whatever and picking up on high level ideas that they couldn't possibly implement correctly because they don't have the foundation to place them on. This is a crude example, but it's pertinent. I've seen players be told to macro and don't let their minerals get "above 500." So, what do they do? Easy. They stop building so many workers. lol? I've also seen them answer that question a different way. They queue up all their racks full of units so that they're more backed up than Tokyo in rush hour. They're fixing a major problem of wasted minerals by breaking an even more important rule of "build more scvs; build more infrastructure." They are building a pyramid up-side down. You don't become a pro by doing the few things that make them pros. You become a pro by doing all the big things that separate them from the masses before they even develop their in-game personality. In short: learn the basics first. They're the fastest way to get good.
I agree with this. Was coaching a friend who started in Silver and he would watch Day9 and stuff and would attempt to do fancy things during fights like pick up tanks with medivacs and placed them on cliffs and try to stutter step his heart out with stimmed marines. That's great if you have 150+ apm and are on top of your macro but when you're at 29 drones 12 minutes into the game with 3 bases and 4 barracks, there's so many basic things wrong that it doesn't matter that you've never gone about 400 minerals. Because you're at 60 food at 12 minutes.
I played 2v2 with a friend who said he was going cloaked banshees. He spends the whole game harassing with 5 cloaked banshees and 15 minutes into the game he's at 74 supply on 1.25 bases.
I get that "macro better" means a lot of things and Bronzies may not understand how to practically implement that. Here's a basic outline:
1) Don't get supply blocked 2) Unless you're trading units, always be growing your supply (army and workers) 3) Expand as often as you can without being retarded (set a random benchmark like every 5 minutes) 4) Keep upgrading both in tech and in unit upgrades 5) Build your infrastructure constantly
There are a few early game situations where having the correct decision-making matters like 6-pools and cannon rushes but even most 1-base all ins are so poorly executed at Bronze that decision-making becomes almost irrelevant. There's not much that you need to execute well to defend an 8:30 4-gate with no proxy pylon.
I've played at the bottom of Bronze league (trolling on a friend's account) and they are indeed HORRIBLE. Even top Bronze is pretty abysmal. Better than it used to be, but still abysmal.
On March 27 2012 06:38 GloPikkle wrote: There are a few early game situations where having the correct decision-making matters like 6-pools and cannon rushes but even most 1-base all ins are so poorly executed at Bronze that decision-making becomes almost irrelevant. There's not much that you need to execute well to defend an 8:30 4-gate with no proxy pylon.
I'd suggest that an exception to this would be for bronze league zerg players, who need to make one key decision correctly -- when to switch from worker to unit production and vice versa.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
Mostly in TvT I end up losing what macro advantage I have to either getting dropped, or engaging their tanks badly, or not dealing with banshees or reapers properly. Against Zerg and Protoss, there's just no earlygame harassment options for them, so its easier for me to take the macro lead.
Banelings can be defeated by throwing enough marines at them, for Colossi you just need to add some Vikings to the marine ball, infestors and templar require micro that most silver players don't seem to have. But no, in TvT there's usually no window of opportunity. In the earlygame a bunker or fast tank plus marines can stop an MM push. If you wait till later, a decent marine/tank/viking army will murder a force much greater in size if not handled well.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
The good news is: I just racked up my second-ever win.
The bad news: I'm pretty sure it was a pity resignation. My base was crawling with Protoss, all my units were dead, and before I could so much as finish typing "gg," the "Victory!" window came up.
Maybe I've been going about this the wrong way. If I flounder around just a little more, I could ride this thing to Silver.
On March 08 2012 17:59 gn1k wrote: I think lots of people who used to be in bronze have stopped playing. So people that still play who are in bronze are a lot better than they used to be.
No, they aren't.
Sure they are. Today's gold league is where platinum or better were in early season 1. However, that doesn't mean that they have a chance of beating today's platinum and up players.
From how matchmaking has gone for the last couple seasons in gold and platinum, I have the feeling that what's really happened is that the silver through platinum range has compressed quite a bit, so high silver and low platinum are pretty close. I say this because lately normal MMR fluctuations through winning and losing streaks have matched me, a mid-gold to low plat player depending on when, against platinum players (when I'm doing well) and silver players (when doing badly) even though I don't really have long good or bad streaks.
As for the OP, it's certainly possible to play a lot and learn a lot about the game and not get out of bronze. My own experience is that taking a step back and practicing macro can help.
You are correct on that. I've been playing a lot lately. I was mid to low silver. Once I got to the top of my division I was getting pitted against a range of players from high silvers (like myself) all the way up to lower-mid platinum players. ( Now I'm a high gold :D )
I though disagree with those who say you must use a build order to get better. That is only part of it; as macro (as some have said) is super important. I don't care what build order you use, if you can't keep up with the timing of things, your units won't be on the field in time and you'll get rolled over. I switched to Zerg two months ago and have yet to use a build order and as I said earlier, I've gone from low-mid silver to high in my gold division (going up and down from 5-12ish spots). My macro feels real nice as I've been working on it soley since my switch to Z. Two months ago I'd of gotten ROFLstomped by a low gold and now in custom 1v1's I've actually beaten a couple of platinums.
But, once again, that's only part of the solution. Now that my macro is decent I will add some build orders to my game and I'm fairly certain I will get Platinum and if I really play I'm sure I'll get to Diamond.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
How can people refute to me that all bronze players do is sit in their base when replays like this exist?
All the zerg does is sit there in his base. He blindly makes some roaches and zerglings and sits there with them. He then techs to mutas, makes 10 of them, and sits there with them. The only information he has by the 10 minute mark is where the terran is, and that only because an overlord has seen a refinery. Eventually, he scouts his terran opponent with changelings, but they never get into his opponent's base and essentially don't tell him anything beyond that he has an expansion.
Meanwhile, the terran sits in his base doing nothing, blindly making 2 bunkers. He forgets to keep making SCVs at 26 and along the way there were intermittent gaps. Then after those are done, he refuses to move out until he has some more bunkers on the low ground. He sieges up some tanks for good measure.
He trains more SCVs at his natural, and later his main. When he tries to maynard SCVs to his expansion, he forgets that his depots are raised and a dozen workers get stuck on a cliff and stare down at the minerals, despite the terran not moving out at all and the game warning him he has 10 workers idle. Somehow, though, he has been keeping economic pace with a zerg he hasn't attacked in the slightest.
Meanwhile, the zerg player has 2 extra queens with 200 energy he made for absolutely no reason (or maybe there was a reason and he forgot), one injecting queen with 123 energy, and one with 95. Only 2 creep tumors were made, and he made them inside his main and never spread them. He is somehow down 37 supply to the terran, despite him having applied no pressure.
The zerg eventually attacks by morphing the dozen corruptors, finally surpassing the terran in supply, that have been sitting over the chasm on the bottom of the map into brood lords and attacking with them and the mutas he never used. The terran, having never scouted beyond scanning, is unprepared and dies. He doesn't even attempt to use the thor he made. He loses his third, tries to scurry around with some marines and a few vikings he desperately made, and ggs.
Not only were the zerg's injects not perfect, but they weren't even germane to the game. Your injects don't bloody matter when all you do is sit there and don't get attacked.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
At 10 mins, sure he's got 22 and 19 energy on the two inject queens, but at least 30 seconds left on the larva. That puts him at like ~35 energy for both queens once the larva pops. All this considering ALL he's been doing all game is looking at his base and injecting. So, his injects are sub-par, even when he's practically doing nothing else.
At 10:30 when all the larva pops, 21 idle larva off 2 bases. 1k minerals and 1k gas, 62 food. Yeah, macro's the problem here.
No harass, no pressure, pointless scouting, no nothing. You better well have damn near perfect injects, which this zerg doesn't.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
At 10 mins, sure he's got 22 and 19 energy on the two inject queens, but at least 30 seconds left on the larva. That puts him at like ~35 energy for both queens once the larva pops. All this considering ALL he's been doing all game is looking at his base and injecting. So, his injects are sub-par, even when he's practically doing nothing else.
At 10:30 when all the larva pops, 21 idle larva off 2 bases. 1k minerals and 1k gas, 62 food. Yeah, macro's the problem here.
No harass, no pressure, pointless scouting, no nothing. You better well have damn near perfect injects, which this zerg doesn't.
This situation is exactly to the point that higher level people have been saying. Bronze level player thinks macro is not the problem because he thinks "I'm hitting my injects herp derp" when actually... it is...
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
How can people refute to me that all bronze players do is sit in their base when replays like this exist?
All the zerg does is sit there in his base. He blindly makes some roaches and zerglings and sits there with them. He then techs to mutas, makes 10 of them, and sits there with them. The only information he has by the 10 minute mark is where the terran is, and that only because an overlord has seen a refinery. Eventually, he scouts his terran opponent with changelings, but they never get into his opponent's base and essentially don't tell him anything beyond that he has an expansion.
Meanwhile, the terran sits in his base doing nothing, blindly making 2 bunkers. He forgets to keep making SCVs at 26 and along the way there were intermittent gaps. Then after those are done, he refuses to move out until he has some more bunkers on the low ground. He sieges up some tanks for good measure.
He trains more SCVs at his natural, and later his main. When he tries to maynard SCVs to his expansion, he forgets that his depots are raised and a dozen workers get stuck on a cliff and stare down at the minerals, despite the terran not moving out at all and the game warning him he has 10 workers idle. Somehow, though, he has been keeping economic pace with a zerg he hasn't attacked in the slightest.
Meanwhile, the zerg player has 2 extra queens with 200 energy he made for absolutely no reason (or maybe there was a reason and he forgot), one injecting queen with 123 energy, and one with 95. Only 2 creep tumors were made, and he made them inside his main and never spread them. He is somehow down 37 supply to the terran, despite him having applied no pressure.
The zerg eventually attacks by morphing the dozen corruptors, finally surpassing the terran in supply, that have been sitting over the chasm on the bottom of the map into brood lords and attacking with them and the mutas he never used. The terran, having never scouted beyond scanning, is unprepared and dies. He doesn't even attempt to use the thor he made. He loses his third, tries to scurry around with some marines and a few vikings he desperately made, and ggs.
Not only were the zerg's injects not perfect, but they weren't even germane to the game. Your injects don't bloody matter when all you do is sit there and don't get attacked.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
How can people refute to me that all bronze players do is sit in their base when replays like this exist?
All the zerg does is sit there in his base. He blindly makes some roaches and zerglings and sits there with them. He then techs to mutas, makes 10 of them, and sits there with them. The only information he has by the 10 minute mark is where the terran is, and that only because an overlord has seen a refinery. Eventually, he scouts his terran opponent with changelings, but they never get into his opponent's base and essentially don't tell him anything beyond that he has an expansion.
Meanwhile, the terran sits in his base doing nothing, blindly making 2 bunkers. He forgets to keep making SCVs at 26 and along the way there were intermittent gaps. Then after those are done, he refuses to move out until he has some more bunkers on the low ground. He sieges up some tanks for good measure.
He trains more SCVs at his natural, and later his main. When he tries to maynard SCVs to his expansion, he forgets that his depots are raised and a dozen workers get stuck on a cliff and stare down at the minerals, despite the terran not moving out at all and the game warning him he has 10 workers idle. Somehow, though, he has been keeping economic pace with a zerg he hasn't attacked in the slightest.
Meanwhile, the zerg player has 2 extra queens with 200 energy he made for absolutely no reason (or maybe there was a reason and he forgot), one injecting queen with 123 energy, and one with 95. Only 2 creep tumors were made, and he made them inside his main and never spread them. He is somehow down 37 supply to the terran, despite him having applied no pressure.
The zerg eventually attacks by morphing the dozen corruptors, finally surpassing the terran in supply, that have been sitting over the chasm on the bottom of the map into brood lords and attacking with them and the mutas he never used. The terran, having never scouted beyond scanning, is unprepared and dies. He doesn't even attempt to use the thor he made. He loses his third, tries to scurry around with some marines and a few vikings he desperately made, and ggs.
Not only were the zerg's injects not perfect, but they weren't even germane to the game. Your injects don't bloody matter when all you do is sit there and don't get attacked.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
When you pick and choose games like this, sure.
Please post a rep of a game where you feel the mechanics of the Bronze level player were beyond his league. The original rep was posted by someone claiming that Bronze mechanics were pretty good.
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Show me a game of a bronzie in +10 mins of gameplay without more than 27 energy on any queen, and I will literally eat my shit. Nobody in bronze hits all their injects and has no idle larva. Obv can't be a high league smurf.
Bronzies are not nailing their injects. I've watch so many replays where bronzies say they keep their money low but have 500+ at like 6 minutes.
http://replayfu.com/download/XPBxJt 6:00 29 energy , 6 spare larva, 344 resources in the bank. 8:03 23 and 31 energy, 5 spare larva, 404 resources. 10:00 23 and 20 energy, 14 spare larva, 1600 resources.
The injects are damn near perfect. Most of the resources banked is gas, which is definitely a problem though since its restricting his worker count and making it hard to spend all the larva.
Hitting injects is overrated if you've got your gas timings wrong like this guy has.
How can people refute to me that all bronze players do is sit in their base when replays like this exist?
All the zerg does is sit there in his base. He blindly makes some roaches and zerglings and sits there with them. He then techs to mutas, makes 10 of them, and sits there with them. The only information he has by the 10 minute mark is where the terran is, and that only because an overlord has seen a refinery. Eventually, he scouts his terran opponent with changelings, but they never get into his opponent's base and essentially don't tell him anything beyond that he has an expansion.
Meanwhile, the terran sits in his base doing nothing, blindly making 2 bunkers. He forgets to keep making SCVs at 26 and along the way there were intermittent gaps. Then after those are done, he refuses to move out until he has some more bunkers on the low ground. He sieges up some tanks for good measure.
He trains more SCVs at his natural, and later his main. When he tries to maynard SCVs to his expansion, he forgets that his depots are raised and a dozen workers get stuck on a cliff and stare down at the minerals, despite the terran not moving out at all and the game warning him he has 10 workers idle. Somehow, though, he has been keeping economic pace with a zerg he hasn't attacked in the slightest.
Meanwhile, the zerg player has 2 extra queens with 200 energy he made for absolutely no reason (or maybe there was a reason and he forgot), one injecting queen with 123 energy, and one with 95. Only 2 creep tumors were made, and he made them inside his main and never spread them. He is somehow down 37 supply to the terran, despite him having applied no pressure.
The zerg eventually attacks by morphing the dozen corruptors, finally surpassing the terran in supply, that have been sitting over the chasm on the bottom of the map into brood lords and attacking with them and the mutas he never used. The terran, having never scouted beyond scanning, is unprepared and dies. He doesn't even attempt to use the thor he made. He loses his third, tries to scurry around with some marines and a few vikings he desperately made, and ggs.
Not only were the zerg's injects not perfect, but they weren't even germane to the game. Your injects don't bloody matter when all you do is sit there and don't get attacked.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
When you pick and choose games like this, sure.
Please post a rep of a game where you feel the mechanics of the Bronze level player were beyond his league. The original rep was posted by someone claiming that Bronze mechanics were pretty good.
I actually just got promoted to silver :D
First time playing 1v1 in 13 weeks according to my profile ಠ_ಠ
Won a ZvT for my S6 "placement match" and placed into Bronze again, then won a ZvZ and got promoted. I'll look through those replays to see what went on. I feel like the ZvT was really messy, probably due to being the first match in a looongggg time.
On March 27 2012 07:03 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Mostly in TvT I end up losing what macro advantage I have to either getting dropped, or engaging their tanks badly, or not dealing with banshees or reapers properly. Against Zerg and Protoss, there's just no earlygame harassment options for them, so its easier for me to take the macro lead.
Banelings can be defeated by throwing enough marines at them, for Colossi you just need to add some Vikings to the marine ball, infestors and templar require micro that most silver players don't seem to have. But no, in TvT there's usually no window of opportunity. In the earlygame a bunker or fast tank plus marines can stop an MM push. If you wait till later, a decent marine/tank/viking army will murder a force much greater in size if not handled well.
you need to surround his army with your marines (and a few marauders if you can) keep a safe distance and then stim inside from all angles (like you would do with zerglings)
you need to build ccs and to scan. you must know where his tanks are. it's even better if you push when he unsiege his tanks but with enough macro advantage you should be able to go in even with tanks up also if there are only 1-3 tanks and not that many marines shield marines nostim will eat up the tanks provided a good enough concave
They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit.
Nailing injects isn't something you do in bronze, it's something you do at high diamond/low masters. The inbetween part is you improving at your injects and a bunch of other stuff.
On March 27 2012 08:00 Gheed wrote:How can people refute to me that all bronze players do is sit in their base when replays like this exist?
Aside from the obvious issue that one game can't prove that all games have the same problem...
I've been one of the people making very clear I think that the lower leagues have improved, but that doesn't mean I disagree with you on this.
I would say that the key distinguishing factor of bronze level play (excluding the people who 6-pool or worker rush every game) always was and is now that players sit back, build stuff, and do nothing. Players who learn to move out and attack get to silver. Congratulations, achievement unlocked, etc.
I think to some extent the advice to "just work on macro, that will get you to Platinum" reinforces that, because it causes a less-experienced player to think "They're saying just build more, I am not comfortable attacking anyway, win!!!" The truth is that it reflects a total lack of knowledge about when to move out or what the effect will be. I do think this is a counterexample to the statement that "strategy doesn't matter," because knowing the importance of getting over one's fear and attacking earlier than they're comfortable is a necessary step to starting to learn timings, and arguably that you have to attack sometime is the most basic strategic lesson in the game.
None of that means, though, that bronze players aren't building somewhat more than they used to, attacking a little bit earlier, getting to a third or fourth base instead of just two by 20 minutes, etc. I'd argue that these are extremely meaningful improvements in a bronze vs. bronze matchup that look completely meaningless to someone like you or even me faced with such an opponent.
I'd also put out there that the bronze players who are most strenuously objecting to your characterizations of their play probably have MMRs in the silver range already.
On March 27 2012 09:16 GloPikkle wrote: Please post a rep of a game where you feel the mechanics of the Bronze level player were beyond his league. The original rep was posted by someone claiming that Bronze mechanics were pretty good.
I'd more characterize the argument as being that different bronze players are held back by different problems, so categorical statements that things like injects are always completely horrible may have a counterexample out there somewhere. It wasn't posted to show how awesome bronze mechanics are.
i got out of bronze when i stopped listening to the macrobots. so i'd say that macro is not an issue for a number of players down there. Anyway as long as one have fun any division is fine and using rank is quite a silly way to deride casual players.
On March 27 2012 17:54 freakhill wrote: i got out of bronze when i stopped listening to the macrobots. so i'd say that macro is not an issue for a number of players down there.
Thing is, for any bronze player in the game, macro's the most important thing they have to learn to do well. The problem is that the advice to "focus on macro" kind of elides the point that there are other essential skills they need to learn too, like how to decide (or in extreme cases whether to decide) when to go attack.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
Yes, I would agree. It would take a comprehensive study to discredit the following logic: as the game get's older, the players in general become more skilled at it. So the leagues have improved. You can rant on about larva injects all night long, but unless you refrain from injecting all together it is hardly the most game changing factor.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
Yes, I would agree. It would take a comprehensive study to discredit the following logic: as the game get's older, the players in general become more skilled at it. So the leagues have improved. You can rant on about larva injects all night long, but unless you refrain from injecting all together it is hardly the most game changing factor.
Queen/CC/Nexus energy, creep spread, worker count, and "keeping your money low" are game changing factors. It's called macro. Arguably, nexus energy is the least important.
It also doesn't change the fact that you can [poorly] 4gate your way comfortably into gold. It worked in Season 1, it'll work in Season 9999.
I accept the fact that I am forever bronze, I have fun like all you guys do when laddering .
I use a build order and such, I now I keep on getting supply blocked(my ultimate menace >.>), sometimes have micro blunders(right click somewhere instead of amove and get owned by a toss deathball).
Regards, Bluelightz
EDIT: Regarding zergs, I do agree that I never faced a bronze zerg who can inject consistently and have queen energy is constantly down.
By the way: the terran is silver and the zerg was silver in season 5, so maybe we need to expand the definition of bronze to include silver players as well. The leagues sure are improving over time, eh?
Yes, I would agree. It would take a comprehensive study to discredit the following logic: as the game get's older, the players in general become more skilled at it. So the leagues have improved. You can rant on about larva injects all night long, but unless you refrain from injecting all together it is hardly the most game changing factor.
Queen/CC/Nexus energy, creep spread, worker count, and "keeping your money low" are game changing factors. It's called macro. Arguably, nexus energy is the least important.
It also doesn't change the fact that you can [poorly] 4gate your way comfortably into gold. It worked in Season 1, it'll work in Season 9999.
Yes, focus on the least significant part of my comment. Good job.
By the way, when did we start using "larva injects" as a substitute word for "macro"? I only talked about one aspect of macro, not the entire thing, which of course is game changing. Perfect larva injects on the other hand... On the top yes, but you can survive many leagues without it.
I'm not Bronze anymore (Silver lol), but I started playing in Season 2, about a year ago now, and I sucked terribly. Then I got better (played Protoss), got introduced to Day9 and finally started to understand some. One some games, lost some games. Nothing bad really, and I stayed at top 20 in Season 4. Then I got a 24-game winning streak. Promotion!...nope.
I kept playing, no promo even after that sick streak, even though my MMR was against Silvers and Golds all the frickin time, and I beat them. Nothing.
Then I watched a Diamond-friend play Zerg, and being a fast learner, I started playing Zerg. I fucking CRUSHED, and switched to Zerg instantly, and then I got promoted, a couple weeks into Season 5. After playing Zerg for quite a while I got really good actually. Then I tried Protoss again, and I by playing Zerg and playing against Protoss, I had gotten better as Protoss, but I just noticed how I fucking SUCKED as Toss. Really, I was terrible, and I felt bad.
The Season I switched to Zerg, 5, I had 197-198 wins at the end, I just played a ton. Some days I'd play around 12 hours, watched a ton of MLG/GSL and downloaded replays and watched Day9/SoTG, anything. Now I'm Silver, and I've been quite inactive this Season, but I'm currently trying out Terran, perhaps to get a better look at ZvT/TvZ, perhaps I want to make a switch. Who knows, after some games, 6-7, I think it's fun. + ZvZ was a pain in the ass.
The way you rank up in this game is really awkward. Because you could play a person in gold league, beat them, and still the get the same points for your division just as you beat a fellow bronze player. Heck I even got knocked down a league even though I won my placement matches this season.
On March 28 2012 01:49 TR.Mutank wrote: The way you rank up in this game is really awkward. Because you could play a person in gold league, beat them, and still the get the same points for your division just as you beat a fellow bronze player. Heck I even got knocked down a league even though I won my placement matches this season.
Yep, the pointssystem works pretty bad. And sometimes the Matchmaking-system is pretty awkward too, got matched against some Gold with 3-4 k wins, he completely steamrolled me. It's sad sometimes.
On March 27 2012 09:16 GloPikkle wrote: Please post a rep of a game where you feel the mechanics of the Bronze level player were beyond his league. The original rep was posted by someone claiming that Bronze mechanics were pretty good.
I'd more characterize the argument as being that different bronze players are held back by different problems, so categorical statements that things like injects are always completely horrible may have a counterexample out there somewhere. It wasn't posted to show how awesome bronze mechanics are.
Yes, that was my point in posting that replay. As Gheed noted in his exhaustive essay, there's a whole bunch of things he was doing wrong, but injects weren't anywhere near the top of that list. They're on pretty much the same level as mine when I played Zerg in gold.
On March 28 2012 01:49 TR.Mutank wrote: The way you rank up in this game is really awkward. Because you could play a person in gold league, beat them, and still the get the same points for your division just as you beat a fellow bronze player. Heck I even got knocked down a league even though I won my placement matches this season.
It's not that simple. If you read the big guide thread on the MMR system, you'll see that it makes sense and is fair, but you need a long term perspective. You might very well be demoted even if you win your placement match if you had a bad MMR last season. The fact that you say "placement matches" also makes a huge difference since that means you refrained from playing for a whole season which, according to some people at least, means your MMR is reset, so your previous placement doesn't matter and you probably just had bad luck with the people you were matched against, which doesn't matter since you should keep winning and be promoted more or less immediately.
I read this thread and thought the logic was sound. I mean this game has been out for two years now, it's only natural the skill level of each league increases, and I do believe it has. However, this is no excuse cover up the fact that you cannot get out of bronze. I was active in season one and half of season two, and then I quit. I found time to start playing again recently and I thought it was going to be season 3-4. I had no idea I had missed three seasons. As you can expect, I have no idea how the metagame has evolved in the past year I've been inactive, and my mechanics are terrible. I lost two of my placements, still ended up in platinum, and it literally took me 10 games to get into diamond (inb4cheese).
tl;dr
If you're playing decently, you should be out of bronze in a ridiculously low amount of time. It has nothing to do with high apm, control group splitting your units, and any of these more demanding skills. My biggest advice for anyone who would like to leave bronze soon is to simply scout often to be able to react and try to keep making units out of production facilities. You could have 20 apm and horrible unit composition but this alone can take you to gold.
It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement.
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad"
Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot.
Some time ago I read this thread, and I simply couldn't believe that some people can do everything to learn the right way, and still remain Bronze.
However, since then I tried to play some Tribes and CS GO, and I'm experiencing the same thing. It's just this feeling of how immensely horrible I am that no amount of reading and watching and trying to do the right thing helps. It's been quite a painful revelation, really.
Now I never thought of myself as a particularly talented RTS player, but when I decided to learn/improve in RTS I somehow did continuously improve, and the same thing is most definitely not happening in FPS games I tried to take somewhat seriously. So my conclusion is indeed that not everyone can really get into all kinds of games.
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement.
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad"
Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot.
I would like to add an observation I made when watching some of my friends new to starcraft play: the best predictor of ladder position is the physical speed with which a person performs actions. I therefore theorize that knowing what to do (make things!) isn't even that important compared to just doing something fast.
Corollary: Many pros and near pros are where they are because they think quickly and move quickly, not necessarily because they have greater understanding of the game.
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement.
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad"
Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot.
I would like to add an observation I made when watching some of my friends new to starcraft play: the best predictor of ladder position is the physical speed with which a person performs actions. I therefore theorize that knowing what to do (make things!) isn't even that important compared to just doing something fast.
Corollary: Many pros and near pros are where they are because they think quickly and move quickly, not necessarily because they have greater understanding of the game.
Not necessarily. It has been said time and time again that Flash has relatively slow hand speed compared to other elite pro-gamers, but his movement are always deliberate, well-thought out, and ridiculously intelligent. Dignitas.Sjow and Grubby are also "slow" players, but they can still beat many players that are "faster" because they have a deep understanding of the game. I really think all pro-gamers have a great understanding of their respective games which transcends what normal players (bronze - midmasters) have going through their heads. At the highest level of play having a high hand-speed obviously helps, but playing around 500 APM never let Vibe become a top-tier pro-gamer. Like Day[9] once said, you don't need high APM to be good at Starcraft, but to take that step from "really good player" to "super Gosu" you need high APM. None of us are on that level of "really good player" quite yet.
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement.
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad"
Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot.
Honestly, you're an asshole. To play at masters level you need a couple of things that have no connection to being an idiot. Decent reaction speed, hand-eye coordination, multitasking abilities.
Some people will be gifted in those areas and they will do way better in SC2 then the average Joe. Also, some of them may act as total jerks.
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement.
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad"
Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot.
Honestly, you're an asshole. To play at masters level you need a couple of things that have no connection to being an idiot. Decent reaction speed, hand-eye coordination, multitasking abilities.
Some people will be gifted in those areas and they will do way better in SC2 then the average Joe. Also, some of them may act as total jerks.
My point is when lower league players look at their own replays to analyze mistakes, they get too caught up in small details. They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are.
It's like a beginner at soccer who cant even kick the ball straight focusing on tactics.
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement.
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad"
Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot.
Honestly, you're an asshole. To play at masters level you need a couple of things that have no connection to being an idiot. Decent reaction speed, hand-eye coordination, multitasking abilities.
Some people will be gifted in those areas and they will do way better in SC2 then the average Joe. Also, some of them may act as total jerks.
My point is when lower league players look at their own replays to analyze mistakes, they get too caught up in small details. They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are.
It's like a beginner at soccer who cant even kick the ball straight focusing on tactics.
True, but at the same time I wouldn't like to see someone bringing up 2-3 second gaps in probe production or warp-ins, when they're building nothing but stalkers against MMM and losing battles with a 2:1 ratio. Edit : Well, they should bring it up, but mention chargealots and colossi first!
On March 28 2012 13:54 chenchen wrote: They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are.
You know, everyone always says that, but I don't know anyone who's gotten out of bronze who hasn't improved those areas substantially to do so. Having "good macro" doesn't happen unless you can survive long enough to make some units.
Edit: Obviously the standards on all those things are a lot lower in bronze league. However, knowing how to notice and react to even a poorly-executed, late bunker or cannon rush, rush to cloaked units,etc. is a prerequisite for a player winning enough games to get promoted, and those are mostly scouting, timing, and micro problems.
On March 28 2012 13:54 chenchen wrote: My point is when lower league players look at their own replays to analyze mistakes, they get too caught up in small details. They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are.
It's like a beginner at soccer who cant even kick the ball straight focusing on tactics.
I disagree with the bolded part, because I think that these things can be a limiting factor. I think you're assuming too high a baseline for them.
I just got through watching one of the 'more bad games' on the Potatostream vod channel, the one that starts at about 25:00.
It's an interesting game: our hero makes barracks, builds a bunker, builds an expansion and maynards workers. The early macro isn't stellar, but nor is it remedial. He hides an SCV to watch for his opponent's expansion, makes more barracks and techs to starport. All in all I wouldn't have been able to say "This guy is in bronze" with any confidence just based on the first few minutes.
Then things get more relevant. Our hero takes a third way off in the corner of the map. Obviously this is a risky gambit, but there's nothing wrong with taking a risk if you need that risk to pay off in order to win. He didn't. He was up two bases to a confirmed one with a substantial standing army. There was no need to conceal a third. That was the first 'hmm'.
He spent scans (mules didn't feature prominently in this game, to be fair) checking out his opponent's base, and saw nothing much of anything except siege tanks at intervals around the edge.
A couple of minutes later he sees a flock of banshees crossing the map - six or seven of them. He has a mass of marines, two engineering bays, and plenty of energy at his command centres. "Ok, he's so got this," I think to myself.
A couple of minutes after that I was almost shouting at the screen. All our hero had to do was make himself secure using the 3000 minerals he had accumulated and the game was effectively over. But he didn't. He just... faffed.
He chased the banshees around from his natural to his main, wasting scans, not building turrets, not building vikings. It would have been the work of a few seconds to box the workers in his main and build a bunch of turrets, then do the same when his natural, and then chase the banshees around to prevent them taking down the static defence. Or even build one turret at a time in the middle of his army, and let the natural die - the other guy wasn't going anywhere. But he simply didn't do the things that would win him the game. He just gave up. He actually said - on stream - "There's nothing I can do. He's got siege tanks." Then he conga'd up his whole army (pausing to destroy some rocks along the way) and proceeded to feed it into the maw of the three or four tanks stationed on his opponent's ramp, as though to demonstrate the truth of his assessment.
Though I initially took the 'concentrate on macro' school of thought here on TL to heart, I started to have my doubts a couple of months ago after seeing my own long-stagnant standard of play leap forward upon switching my focus to decision-making (after watching the incomparable Stoic Intimate ZvX VoDs). It actually helped un-cap my macro because I wasn't dithering around being cagey with my resources. This replay is undoubtedly a datapoint in the same direction: macro is not necessarily the limiting factor at any given point in a player's progression, even if it’s really bad.
What stood out a mile in Potatostream's VoD was that his opening build was ok, his macro in pursuit of that build good enough to keep his head above water certainly in silver and maybe even gold based on my experience, but his decision making was either random, wrong, or absent entirely.
More than anything, there was a pervasive sense of connections not made on a number of levels. He was a base up, but had no idea what that meant he should do or what being allowed to get a base ahead should make him careful of. The sneaky third was random, and the way he tried to deal with the banshees demonstrated complete tunnel vision, as though he had once seen someone deal with banshees using marines, stim and scans and was just trying to ape that, with no thought as to the next step. Indeed, everything he did (bar the final suicide march) looked like an attempt to mimic something he had seen someone do, but without any grasp of why, of implications or alternatives. It was a bit like watching someone trying to do a jigsaw who hadn’t cottoned on to the fact that it was supposed to make a big picture at the end.
I'm convinced that advising someone who's playing like that to build more stuff and attack won't help in the long run, because it's just another list of instructions for them to blindly copy and hope it works. It's a better list, but it doesn't fix the fact that they just don't know the overall 'shape' of the game they're trying to win - or even that there's a shape to be apprehended.
By the way, If anyone in this thread is interested (I’ve PM’d a few but might have missed some), I’m running an analysis that requires large numbers of sequential bronze-level replays from single players. I’m paying $50 via PayPal for the must useful submission; the details are in my blog.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Hell, I miss Bronze League. The games were so much slower so you could really enjoy them and relax. Try whatever build orders or strategies you wanted. But now in Masters the APM requirement is massive and any attempt at breaking from the norm in terms of strategy or build order will see you quickly demolished.
So I say to thee Bronze Leaguers, be happy where you are, you get to enjoy the game on a completely different level to all the condescending higher leaguers.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Aw; I want you to care about me
As it happens, I placed in bronze and worked my way up - very quickly out of bronze, then a much bumpier ride to get out of silver until the aforementioned epiphany about decision making, and I'm now in Gold. I'm clearly not gifted, and I don't have much time to play. I don't see 'time' being the principle difference between myself and active bronze players.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I completely agree with this one. I started in Season 1 with bronze league, and after taking breaks and then getting back into it over last summer. (I consider myself to have quite a bit of Bronze experience, and I don;t consider it an achievement) I played almost 4+ hours, sorta like OP and was still in bronze. Top of the league, but still in bronze. I followed all pro streams, watched day 9 and was STILL in bronze.
Morfildur hit it right on the money. There are some players that have absolutely NO idea what they are doing. Hopefully they are having fun, but you could see a clear separation in the league. The funny thing is, the main reason those upper bronze players stayed in bronze, is because they couldn't scout. It wasn't that they didn't scout, It's that they either, didn't know what to look for, or, most of the time, the opponent was in the lower part of bronze and did some off the wall strategy that somehow takes the opponent off guard and throws them.
Really getting out of bronze league seems hard because of them and, I think it all comes down to playing time.
Over the summer It was me, laddering almost all day, and topping the league. I had seen everything by that time and built up some sort of, bronze resistance. The next season came out and with that later came school and my playing time dropped to about 2-3 Hours a day. But because I was used to it. I eventually got out into silver and then to gold soon after.
I started out in bronze (diamond now) and I do miss the weird games that I had there from time to time. But it's funny to look back at how much worse I played then. I remember a game, TvZ on Lost Temple where Z took the island expo as last resort while I rolled his base with my 200/200 3/3 mech army (because pushing out before maxed on supply and upgrades is MADNESS). So I Sensor Tower'ed all around his island, transitioned into Battlecruisers and because I was so terribly OCD about unit-retention, my breaking of his three layer deep sporecrawler ring guarded by Corruptors involved me flying in, Yamatoing 2 or 3 Spores or Corruptors and retreating back to my Turret line on the other side to repair my BCs I had a long phone-call during all this, during which I couldn't do much (because I might lose a BC!) so the game ended up lasting for 2 hours.
imo improving at bronze level is about choosing a single thing to improve and that is it. don't abstract play into terms like macro and micro; just choose something simple in concept like mouse control, using hotkeys to build everything, exclusively watching the minimap, etc.
also i see a lot of people say that they watch alot of tournies, read builds, watch day9 and so on; yet they still can't get out of bronze. i think this can create a misconception about the game. when you are bronze you don't want to play like a pro; you want to play like a silver player and that is it.
personally sc2 is not my first rts, but the first ive played for any extended amount of time. i played the campaign first and my placement matches got me into silver; therefore ive never in bronze. not to say im better, but i knew what to improve. i played random and focused on hotkeys first. just learning the hotkeys for buildings and units. i played almost exclusively freestyle. my scouting consisted of only determining the position of the other player and to see if they were making cloaked units.
im plat now, and to be completely honest im still horrible at scouting, and gleaming the correct information. i'm also stuck with the above syndrome with wanting to play like a pro, so i'm insanely stubborn and try to play super economic and get punished by cheese and all-ins.
the redundancy of bad play will never make you better. ive played plenty of games "competitively" and it is really surprising to see players who have played a certain game far longer than i and still on a lower level. pub-stars in counter strike, habitual clickers in WoW, etc.
While reading this thread i couldn't stop myself from comparing sc2 to chess. You [average guy] only need to train hard, focus on solid openings and one day you will beat Magnus Carlsen, not.
Although this was a long time ago and as it's been discussed already, the average skill of players in each league has increased. A natural consequence of the game being around for a longer period of time.
But! For me it was really easy to get into plat and then later on diamond: I sat down with a build order against the AI, i rehearsed till perfection much like an actor would do when readong a new manuscript. This alone, improved my macro quite a bit and i constantly found myself severely outmacroing my oponents which would weigh up for my bad micro and other mistakes i did.
I'm saying, macro is the answer at least up to low diamond where i am. While others might not agree, this is my experience and the way i see it from my perspective.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
A couple dozen is 24 games.. I do not believe you advance from bronze to silver to gold if you play that much every season. You would just have to win every single game because you are a good player which happened to be placed in bronze by accident.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
A couple dozen is 24 games.. I do not believe you advance from bronze to silver to gold if you play that much every season. You would just have to win every single game because you are a good player which happened to be placed in bronze by accident.
Its perfectly possible if he improved quickly, and didn't spend long enough in bronze to "solidy" his MMR at that level. But the longer you stay at given MMR, the harder it is to shift it later.
On March 29 2012 00:10 Gajarell wrote: While reading this thread i couldn't stop myself from comparing sc2 to chess. You [average guy] only need to train hard, focus on solid openings and one day you will beat Magnus Carlsen, not.
Greetings
I'm reminded of something my old running coach liked to say. "I love cross country [racing]. As long as you've got 2 functional legs, you can make yourself good at it."
This applies to SC2 or chess as well. There's not a giant physical limitation like, for example, in basketball. Even with games like basketball, there are outliers in people who completely lacked the physical traits you'd normally associate with excellent players. Dedication and effort will take you far.
Yeah, the bronze players and sub 400 elo chess players probably aren't going to be hitting grandmaster (in either game) or winning tournaments, but they can certainly dig themselves out of the hole they're in.
Just to clarify the point about time not being the most important factor:
Obviously time works as a multiplier (with diminishing returns). And if two players are mid-ladder, and know what they need to focus on, then time invested will be a very effective separator.
But if someone doesn't 'get' the game, or is focusing on the wrong ways to improve, time invested becomes very poor at separating them from other players. And I strongly believe this to be true in the case of the long-term bronze.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
A couple dozen is 24 games.. I do not believe you advance from bronze to silver to gold if you play that much every season. You would just have to win every single game because you are a good player which happened to be placed in bronze by accident.
Its perfectly possible if he improved quickly, and didn't spend long enough in bronze to "solidy" his MMR at that level. But the longer you stay at given MMR, the harder it is to shift it later.
Not true. MMR is as strongly affected by each game regardless of how long it has stayed the same.
On March 28 2012 22:53 Kiichol wrote: Hell, I miss Bronze League. The games were so much slower so you could really enjoy them and relax. Try whatever build orders or strategies you wanted. But now in Masters the APM requirement is massive and any attempt at breaking from the norm in terms of strategy or build order will see you quickly demolished.
So I say to thee Bronze Leaguers, be happy where you are, you get to enjoy the game on a completely different level to all the condescending higher leaguers.
Arrested development does not lead to any meaningful sense of satisfaction though. I see what you're saying but any competitor worth her salt isn't going to be satisfied with bronze league.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
A couple dozen is 24 games.. I do not believe you advance from bronze to silver to gold if you play that much every season. You would just have to win every single game because you are a good player which happened to be placed in bronze by accident.
Its perfectly possible if he improved quickly, and didn't spend long enough in bronze to "solidy" his MMR at that level. But the longer you stay at given MMR, the harder it is to shift it later.
Not true. MMR is as strongly affected by each game regardless of how long it has stayed the same.
Are you sure?
here also is a value "sigma" (i.e. standard deviation) that measures how uncertain the system is of your MMR. This is usually high if you have not played many games recently, or if you are on a winning or losing streak. The system does not seem to use sigma for purposes other than to calculate how much it should adjust your MMR after a win or loss (i.e. for Bayesian inference). For example, it uses a moving average of MMR to promote and demote between leagues, instead of MMR and sigma to calculate the probabilities that some league is most appropriate
That atleast seems to indicate that if you're just starting out, you'll have a high sigma and so its easier to raise your MMR past the promotion thresholds compared to someone who's already been playing a lot but stuck in a rut.
the players who care so much about skill level and what rank they are that they make fun of other players aren't mature enough to be playing video games at all. Rank should matter to you, and no one else. If you care that you are bronze rank, do your best to get better, if you don't care, no one else should either. It's a video game, not a way of life.
Don't get me wrong, I love starcraft. I really do. I watch pro-streams regularly, I keep up with the patches, and I play on and off. However, I am still in bronze league in 1v1 (well, I was last year... haven't played 1v1 yet this year), and it doesn't matter to me. It definitely used to, but I realized that just like with any other video game, I play it for fun, not to impress anyone else. It's tough when you come to a website like TL, where there are so many great players. But just remember, if anyone trashes you for being low rank, it's because their life outside Starcraft is so pathetic that they take it THAT seriously.
High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
here also is a value "sigma" (i.e. standard deviation) that measures how uncertain the system is of your MMR. This is usually high if you have not played many games recently, or if you are on a winning or losing streak. The system does not seem to use sigma for purposes other than to calculate how much it should adjust your MMR after a win or loss (i.e. for Bayesian inference). For example, it uses a moving average of MMR to promote and demote between leagues, instead of MMR and sigma to calculate the probabilities that some league is most appropriate
That atleast seems to indicate that if you're just starting out, you'll have a high sigma and so its easier to raise your MMR past the promotion thresholds compared to someone who's already been playing a lot but stuck in a rut.
While the details are not entirely transparent to anyone outside Blizzard, the sigma mentioned is probably a time-weighted measure of recent stability rather than long-term stability. What this means is that you can have two people who have spent months around the same average MMR, but one of them could have a much larger sigma because his MMR oscillates through a wider range over the short term. So, it probably doesn't matter that you've spent the last 5000 games oscillating around the same center MMR, but the short-term oscillations might affect how rapidly your MMR skews.
This also means that if you have played 5000 games and suddenly start a long winning streak, your sigma will rapidly widen so you can more quickly find your new equilibrium MMR level. It's not constrained by that long history prior to the streak, since the recent variation is what matters.
On March 29 2012 06:44 Fus wrote: High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
Let's not go crazy. High bronze may have improved, but they're still in the bottom third, or lower, of people playing the game.
Watch Day9 and grind out ladder games all you want, but slower players with ADD (like myself) won't break out of the lower leagues unless they're willing to sit in single player games - without a computer - and practicing their mouse control, key stroke combos, macro cycles, and learning the basic math behind macro production off of X amount of bases.
Your body will go on auto pilot from there, and you can start then learning more complex things like every race's timings and how to adjust your builds to them and/or create your own strategies and builds (instead of copying from pros, that is).
People seem to really forget what the OP is trying to say. There is a reason why not everyone who plays basketball is in NBA. There is a reason why not everyone who plays the guitar is in a band that is contracted to a major label. There is a reason why not everyone is a pro gamer. Everyone has skill caps that they can't overcome, because of other factors that are more important for them AND because they understand their limits. Not everyone wants to be what they love to enjoy when its a recreational activity.
Heh. Here's a little case you guys can use for case studies. I have a friend whose been playing SC2 since it got released. We watch GSL together. He is perma gold league. Why? Here are the reasons:
- He plays while lying on his bed with the keyboard on his belly. - He has no mouse pad (his bed covers work just fine according to him). - His monitor is a rather big TV that sits across the entire room from the bed he plays on. - About 1/3 of the games he plays start off with him lighting up a joint. While he takes a drag, he stops playing with one hand. - If something distracts him in the house, he won't pause but instead just afks that shit!
Now: His understanding of the game is rather good but because of his habits, he won't progress past Gold league. He is better than all the players in that league but will not because of all the above self-imposed handicaps.
I'm sure you guys haven't thought of this type of player in the leagues but I'm sure there are a lot. These are the types of players who purely play for fun, not advancement.
On March 29 2012 07:42 EienShinwa wrote: People seem to really forget what the OP is trying to say. There is a reason why not everyone who plays basketball is in NBA. There is a reason why not everyone who plays the guitar is in a band that is contracted to a major label. There is a reason why not everyone is a pro gamer. Everyone has skill caps that they can't overcome, because of other factors that are more important for them AND because they understand their limits. Not everyone wants to be what they love to enjoy when its a recreational activity.
True this.
Personally, I would never want to be a professional gamer for the same reasons I would never want to be a professional sports player. You build very little practical skills when it comes to real work. Don't get me wrong here, you get plenty of practice with discipline, motivation, persistence etc. Basically, once you are done with these professions, there is very little in terms of a career you can follow with after unless you have already practiced and exceled in skills that are not in the same area (public speaking, programming, testing, etc.). These types of careers also heavily impact your life leaving you with little time to build a real social life (real friends, real family, etc.).
Just no thank you! But I do love watching them play!
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
A couple dozen is 24 games.. I do not believe you advance from bronze to silver to gold if you play that much every season. You would just have to win every single game because you are a good player which happened to be placed in bronze by accident.
Its perfectly possible if he improved quickly, and didn't spend long enough in bronze to "solidy" his MMR at that level. But the longer you stay at given MMR, the harder it is to shift it later.
Not true. MMR is as strongly affected by each game regardless of how long it has stayed the same.
here also is a value "sigma" (i.e. standard deviation) that measures how uncertain the system is of your MMR. This is usually high if you have not played many games recently, or if you are on a winning or losing streak. The system does not seem to use sigma for purposes other than to calculate how much it should adjust your MMR after a win or loss (i.e. for Bayesian inference). For example, it uses a moving average of MMR to promote and demote between leagues, instead of MMR and sigma to calculate the probabilities that some league is most appropriate
That atleast seems to indicate that if you're just starting out, you'll have a high sigma and so its easier to raise your MMR past the promotion thresholds compared to someone who's already been playing a lot but stuck in a rut.
Damn; sorry, totally screwed up there. Yeah: MMR is affected differently based on your current sigma - as you say, uncertainty. What I meant, but totally avoided saying, is that your sigma doesn't crystallise. There's a soft cap on how little an unexpected result can nudge your sigma and thus upon how 'stuck' you can get at a particular MMR. So if you spend twenty games meeting the system's expectations of you, you're a lot more 'stable' than when you've only met its expectations twice. But you're not 100 times as 'stuck' if you stay stable for 2000 games.
Thanks for the correction.
Edit: Or what Lysenko said. I'll just get my coat.
What bugs me about this statement is not so much that you are bronze. I've been exactly in your shoes; ten months after I bought the game I was still in bronze, still eating shit on a daily basis. I did exactly what you are doing right now, and I've felt the wall of frustration that comes from seeing perfection but falling so far from it.
No, what really bugs me is that you (and other players in this situation) seem to be throwing in the towel.
And this just drives me nuts because that means all of your hard work, all of your dedication and everything you put into being a competitor and trying to improve - your throwing it away. It breaks my heart to see people with such passion for their game and competition to give up because they don't think they have the potential.
Hell, I'll even throw in a story to try and convey this idea. Just this year I finished running for my school after seven years of cross country. In my time running, I've known two runners who had absolutely no ability, but completely indomitable wills. When they first started running, one could only run the mile in twelve minutes, the other couldn't even finish it. There were many other runners who had much more ability and could run faster; indeed they did but often complained or stated that they 'just didn't have the ability'. Most of those runners quit, giving various excuses as to why they didn't want to keep going. But the two slowest runners? The pushed on, endured and became far better than they had ever been. The first runners final mile time was around eight minutes, while the second one managed to finish a race. Sure, they weren't super stars but at the end of the day all most people ask is that you don't quit and you just keep pushing yourself.
Do that, and I think you'll never have to make a topic like this again.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
I'm sorry but this is simply not true, and it is a big reason lower league players remain in those leagues. I'm a low master league player. I don't really play much anymore, but I considered myself pretty bad. My mechanics are bad, my speed is bad, my micro is bad, I just understand what to do. However, against any gold player I could win with any race making any unit that can hit both air and ground.
The whole idea of struggling against cheese is a crutch. Struggling against cheese is a sign of a bad player. There's no such thing as playing 'the right way'. The goal is to win, and if you can't beat the other person, you're bad at playing, simple as that.
He could not be more correct. I am in Gold and the idea of Gold being average is a mind trick in itself. Bronze is third place normally, but technically you are the lowest level players are Battle.net. Coming up with builds and losing because you are trying something new or saying that losing to cheese is the reason why lower league players like myself don't move up is simply ludicrous. I lose because I am too slow, my macro slips, I don't scout properly, I miss a timing, I miss micro or miss hotkey a unit, I have my units out of position or I build the wrong unit, I teched incorrectly, I did not attack at the right time, I did not build enough units, and the list goes on. Yes, cheese can win or we can lose because of a new strategy that is not refined, but you think the pros never run into cheese on the ladder? You think they never try new builds? They are incomprehensibly better than we are because they have the mind for this game, they study this game as their profession, they play this game 8-11 hours a day on average, they eat, sleep, and dream StarCraft 2 and to even for a split second fathom that we are even remotely close to being as good as these guys are is saying a kid who shoots hoops after school has a chance against a professional basketball player, not much is holding him back and there is little difference between their skill levels. These guys professionals. We are scrubs for many, many reasons.
There is no misconception whatsoever. If you are a masters player, then more than likely you have earned that position even if it is by perfecting a cheese build. The opponents lost to it continuously, which means that they are obviously not good enough simply because they lost. There is no almost in this game. You win because you are good enough and you lose because you are not.
I have a friend in Bronze and she talks about her macro being good or out micro'ing someone and I just look at her funny. "Good" is a matter of relativity. Lower levels players have the misconception if anyone does. They have no idea how the enormous the skill differential is... You thought the guy in Masters league was good? Professional StarCraft 2 players roll them the most random and unorthodox builds just to have fun(example: CatZ's aggressively obvious proxy hatches). They win these games because of their understanding and pure skill. The gap between Masters and Grand Masters is another skills gap. Tiers above that is semi-professional and several tiers above that is true professional. Lower level players simply cannot understand how much difference there is in in literally every aspect of their play when compared to high level or top tier players. You can watch a player's stream and naively think, "Oh, I can do that..." Seeing and doing are not the same thing and lower level players have to stop thinking that they are good or even decent and realize that skill-wise, they are the bottom feeders.
Without the mentality humbleness and self criticism, you will never get better. Thinking you are good will damn you to mediocrity and leave you disillusioned. Realize that you are where you are because you need improvement. Keep playing and get better.
I keep seeing people making excuses for being in their league. Man up and realize you are in the league because of your inadequacies i.e. lack of skill. Stop thinking it is some sort of external factor beyond your control and that Fate has its thumb on your head preventing you from climbing that mountain of success. You are inadequate. I am inadequate. There are a ton of things I can blame my pure lack of ability on, but what it comes down to is that I did not win. Making excuses will league lock you because you are lying to yourself and just making a facade for comfort. Self deception is a sin, stop doing it and strive. Your negative factors are something to surpass, not things to keep you back. Someone mentioned having ADHD. Try to find a way to focus that energy and your APM will skyrocket, trust me, I know. You could blame a myriad of things, but you are wasting your time and effort comes up with reasons why not instead of reasons why. Your excuses are what is holding you back and those factors are just hurdles that you will have to bypass to succeed.
Its not true that after pro gaming career you have no career options, because you most likely have all the options to work in the e-sports industry in the other jobs than playing.
On March 29 2012 10:20 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Its not true that after pro gaming career you have no career options, because you most likely have all the options to work in the e-sports industry in the other jobs than playing.
There's far fewer coaching and commentator spots compared to competitor spots, in SC2 and indeed all other professional sports. And we're not really at the stage where every GSL/MLG winner will be doing multi-million dollar TV spots for gaming products 10 years after retirement.
No, what really bugs me is that you (and other players in this situation) seem to be throwing in the towel.
And this just drives me nuts because that means all of your hard work, all of your dedication and everything you put into being a competitor and trying to improve - your throwing it away. It breaks my heart to see people with such passion for their game and competition to give up because they don't think they have the potential.
That's just bad thinking about "sunk costs" though, only in time instead of money. If someone initially has a goal of say getting to Masters, spends a lot of time trying to achieve it and then after a lot of time spent realises its going to take way more time than they thought, and that the time they'd need is greater than the value they place on being in Masters, the sensible thing to do is to spend that time elsewhere.
On March 29 2012 06:44 Fus wrote: High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
Let's not go crazy. High bronze may have improved, but they're still in the bottom third, or lower, of people playing the game.
Not even the bottom 4th, Bronze is the bottom 20%, the bottom 5th of the playerbase. Now, one could make the case that random players who don't cheese in bronze are better players than cheesers in silver, but that's being a bit meta in ones analysis. Easier to just realize that if you're in bronze, 80% of all SC2 players are better than you.
On March 29 2012 06:44 Fus wrote: High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
Let's not go crazy. High bronze may have improved, but they're still in the bottom third, or lower, of people playing the game.
Not even the bottom 4th, Bronze is the bottom 20%, the bottom 5th of the playerbase.
That's Blizzard's nominal target, but because MMR becomes less accurately tied to percentile the less one plays, bronze makes up as many as 40% or more of the sporadically-active players. The higher leagues are much more regularly spread out, because those players play enough, on average, to keep them so.
You can see this by looking at the league distributions for players active in the last week on sc2ranks.com.
So yeah, 20% is the target, but my "bottom third or less" comment was allowing for the fact that very sporadic play among many bronze players causes it to expand beyond that to some extent.
There's far fewer coaching and commentator spots compared to competitor spots, in SC2 and indeed all other professional sports. And we're not really at the stage where every GSL/MLG winner will be doing multi-million dollar TV spots for gaming products 10 years after retirement.
How did the career prospects of pro players wind up in a thread about people struggling to get out of bronze league?? I'm just curious.
On March 29 2012 06:44 Fus wrote: High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
How are bronze players "definitely great players"?
On March 29 2012 06:44 Fus wrote: High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
How are bronze players "definitely great players"?
They have love for the game and keep playing even while being shat on by many. How is that not great?
Like many people say here all players got better and we have many new players since the game came out. I got demoted out of silver teamgames due to loosing to many games with sloppy teammates. I also play random so some games are really bad . After this my focus on winning has increased, cause I know I am better then bronze...so after 2 weeks I got back in silver. If you don't play every day, your focus decreases and you will loose e few games, this will eventually decrease your average win/lose ratio. But I can deal with this, I just love to play the game, good or bad game, I will learn. My Macro is really good. I've found out in higher leagues they cheese more, people cannonrush or worker all-in all the time, glad I got out of there.
I've spent time playing golds and diamonds with a solid teammate, and I've noticed that I cannot keep up because I just can't type that fast, but I am able to counter or attack with a minimum loss and win some games just by using freaky tactics and macro well. But all of this stuff keeps me in higher bronze/silver. I've had some training from a Diamond player for a while, where I had the better tactics but he was much faster using hotkeys, so after a while he said I was to slow and had to work on my hotkeys. I play Random so I had to manage this for all races. I have ordered a new keyboard and mouse, my teammate told me to do so cause this can help to improve your epm and hotkeying. So I hope this will help. My skills are improving. I keep winning with the same tactics and BO's so I'm focussing improving these. I replay my games a lot lately and check my timings and write them down. If I look at this during a game I don't have to deal with the timing feeling of my opponent...he should have a ton of marines ...let's buids some colossi quick...etc.ect I just know what and how many he has at a certain point. These timing help me a lot in making decisions when to attack and a when to macro or where to send my scouts /obs.
Lots of bronzies are like this...but we have nice games and a lots of fun (use ventrillo or skype). In the higher leagues there is this word "n00b" which everyone seems to use as an excuse if you haven't scouted well or have to deal with early aggresion on your side of the map. Your even been called noob if you win...hehe.
On March 29 2012 18:35 olmaster wrote:I got demoted out of silver teamgames due to loosing to many games with sloppy teammates.
This is a fallacy. Let's say you're playing 3v3 and are a good player. This means your team only has 2 chances to get bad players on it because you will always be taking up a spot. The enemy team, however, has 3 chances for bad players. If you were really a good player, you would, over time, win more than you would lose and rise to your appropriate MMR whereupon you would level out at a 50% W/L rate, assuming you improve at a rate equal to your opponents.
(...)But all of this stuff keeps me in higher bronze/silver. I've had some training from a Diamond player for a while, where I had the better tactics but he was much faster using hotkeys, so after a while he said I was to slow and had to work on my hotkeys. I play Random so I had to manage this for all races. I have ordered a new keyboard and mouse, my teammate told me to do so cause this can help to improve your epm and hotkeying. So I hope this will help. (...)
A new mouse and keyboard don't make you a better player (unless you were using a notebook keyboard and a touchpad or trackball before). I know, pros use mechanical keyboards and stuff and for them it really makes a difference but for everyone below masters, it won't change anything at all. Just use what you are comfortable with.
A good way to force yourself to use hotkeys is to just hide the controls in the bottom right, either by placing an item before it or putting one of those yellow papers on it. That way you prevent the habit of clicking those buttons instead of pressing the correct key. Of course it can cause problems if you need to research something and don't remember the hotkey... but that will make you remember the hotkey better for next time
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades. This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
Not sure if you read what he actually wrote?
Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades.
Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression.
Him: On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors.
Me: As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
On March 29 2012 06:44 Fus wrote: High bronze level is definatly great players, bronze is not what it used to be. I meen i have never been bronze, i went gold after my first placements and almost never played a RTS game before.
How are bronze players "definitely great players"?
They have love for the game and keep playing even while being shat on by many. How is that not great?
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
Not sure if you read what he actually wrote?
Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades.
Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression.
Him: On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors.
Me: As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
What's the issue?
Then you build 5 cannons at the ramp or a PF in your main base but still do early aggression? That wouldn't make sense since that is mathmatically impossible.
And if you practice several hours a day, i still wrote "either lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors.
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
Not sure if you read what he actually wrote?
Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades.
Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression.
Him: On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors.
Me: As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
What's the issue?
The issue is that you say he's wrong from your experience, when he isn't. You say that your games have a lot of early-mid game aggression, so you're in his second group, probably. You playing several hours a day on average doesn't somehow make his next statement untrue, if you play several hours a day and are still in bronze, you're quite clearly "held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors".
imo improving at bronze level is about choosing a single thing to improve and that is it. don't abstract play into terms like macro and micro; just choose something simple in concept like mouse control, using hotkeys to build everything, exclusively watching the minimap, etc.
also i see a lot of people say that they watch alot of tournies, read builds, watch day9 and so on; yet they still can't get out of bronze. i think this can create a misconception about the game. when you are bronze you don't want to play like a pro; you want to play like a silver player and that is it.
personally sc2 is not my first rts, but the first ive played for any extended amount of time. i played the campaign first and my placement matches got me into silver; therefore ive never in bronze. not to say im better, but i knew what to improve. i played random and focused on hotkeys first. just learning the hotkeys for buildings and units. i played almost exclusively freestyle. my scouting consisted of only determining the position of the other player and to see if they were making cloaked units.
im plat now, and to be completely honest im still horrible at scouting, and gleaming the correct information. i'm also stuck with the above syndrome with wanting to play like a pro, so i'm insanely stubborn and try to play super economic and get punished by cheese and all-ins.
the redundancy of bad play will never make you better. ive played plenty of games "competitively" and it is really surprising to see players who have played a certain game far longer than i and still on a lower level. pub-stars in counter strike, habitual clickers in WoW, etc.
that is a very good comment that sums up perfectly what improving is all about. ive got my gf into the game, she is obviously bronze and has no rts (or even competitive video-game) experience AT ALL. i watch her a lot when she plays and discuss her replays with her after so i have seen a lot of bronze level players recently. oftenly bronze players are very kind, tend to chat a lot and the atmosphere in games is actually pretty cool. but a lot of them focus on game aspects that are like total nonsense on their level of play (like "oh no i could have taken my gas geysirs earlier and my upgrades are worse." when they actually just lost because 90% of their army was running in circles behind their supply depots and they didnt notice.)
On March 28 2012 23:49 lazyitachi wrote: GOOD LORD.......... Make workers.. make units... 0 scout... still win bronzies.... Mass hellion, mass viking, mass hydra, mass queen, mass ling
Conclusion.. macro better pls.. ur out of bronze
that on the other hand is a very bad comment (although it is actually true). guess you totally got the game figured out dont you. you presumably seem like the right person to offer bronze coaching hours. :o
On March 28 2012 22:53 Kiichol wrote: Hell, I miss Bronze League. The games were so much slower so you could really enjoy them and relax. Try whatever build orders or strategies you wanted. But now in Masters the APM requirement is massive and any attempt at breaking from the norm in terms of strategy or build order will see you quickly demolished.
So I say to thee Bronze Leaguers, be happy where you are, you get to enjoy the game on a completely different level to all the condescending higher leaguers.
Arrested development does not lead to any meaningful sense of satisfaction though. I see what you're saying but any competitor worth her salt isn't going to be satisfied with bronze league.
Strongly disagree ... ANY competitor should be unhappy with any league .... your just being a git. Also you are implying that people with arrested development cant get satisfaction from things ... 'I don't like the taste of this apple because it cant be used to cut wood' makes about as much sense as what you just said - figure it out because i cant explain it without insulting you.
Its also about play style.
RTS games used to be played VERY differently. Then the tank rush appeared and the game totally changed. Yeah you can macro your ass off and just win by having more shit ... but that isn't necessarily the most fun way to play.
Maybe bronzies are better because they knowingly handicap themselves, dont give a shit and still try to win? Maybe that is far more meaningful than mechanically executing the same build you have done hundreds of times before?
@MrTortoise Playstyle doesn't come into it in this case, since the OP is talking about people who initially do take the game seriously and try to improve, but can't make any progress beyond bronze league. Which is probably very rare, but certainly possible.
You're talking about people who just don't care to get promoted in the first place.
On March 29 2012 20:57 MrTortoise wrote: RTS games used to be played VERY differently. Then the tank rush appeared and the game totally changed. Yeah you can macro your ass off and just win by having more shit ... but that isn't necessarily the most fun way to play.
Maybe bronzies are better because they knowingly handicap themselves, dont give a shit and still try to win? Maybe that is far more meaningful than mechanically executing the same build you have done hundreds of times before?
My take on it is that no matter what you're doing, goofing around is a form of masturbation: it's fun but at the end of the day you aren't getting the most out of what you have to play with.
Now, not every pursuit in life needs to be taken seriously. There's always room for a bit of tossing off. But if that's what you choose to do, don't sneer at the people settling down and having kids, or call what you're doing 'more meaningful'.
On March 29 2012 07:59 willoc wrote: Heh. Here's a little case you guys can use for case studies. I have a friend whose been playing SC2 since it got released. We watch GSL together. He is perma gold league. Why? Here are the reasons:
- He plays while lying on his bed with the keyboard on his belly. - He has no mouse pad (his bed covers work just fine according to him). - His monitor is a rather big TV that sits across the entire room from the bed he plays on. - About 1/3 of the games he plays start off with him lighting up a joint. While he takes a drag, he stops playing with one hand. - If something distracts him in the house, he won't pause but instead just afks that shit!
Now: His understanding of the game is rather good but because of his habits, he won't progress past Gold league. He is better than all the players in that league but will not because of all the above self-imposed handicaps.
I'm sure you guys haven't thought of this type of player in the leagues but I'm sure there are a lot. These are the types of players who purely play for fun, not advancement.
Yeah, the reasons why someone might not progress past bronze are endless. I have no doubt that there are many reasons that I'm not even aware of that kept me in bronze when I used to play and practice so obsessively.
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players...
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve
I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2.
It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues.
I don't see how this can be 'the big reason'. SC2 is my first competitive RTS and between family, work and other interests I have few opportunities to play. In a really exceptional week I'll get ten games played; often weeks go by with none. I know I would do better if I played more, sure, but games played cannot possibly account for much - if any - of the difference between myself and those who find themselves trapped in bronze. More often than not they describe themselves as more active than I am.
Well, I'm talking about getting out of a league. If you played your placement matches well and got placed in platinum I don't care about you - you are not relevant for my argument. I'm thinking about the guys placed in bronze that has to work their way up. You need time to practice your skills and time to win matches after your skills have been improved. How is time not THE factor for advancing up in the leagues?
Time played is definitely a factor, but not necessarily that huge of one. When I started playing (with no real competitive RTS experience), I was in bronze. By the end of my first season, I was in silver. Currently I'm in gold. I play at most a couple dozen games a season. The main thing that makes a difference for me is choosing to focus my efforts at improving in a specific area.
A couple dozen is 24 games.. I do not believe you advance from bronze to silver to gold if you play that much every season. You would just have to win every single game because you are a good player which happened to be placed in bronze by accident.
So I just checked, I have 105 league wins on my account. So it's probably a safe assumption that I have around 200 ladder games played since launch. In that span I've gone bronze to gold as terran, switched to zerg, dropped to silver, then gotten back into gold.
I may well be an outlier, but rapid movement out of lower leagues is definitely possible.
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
Not sure if you read what he actually wrote?
Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades.
Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
You would think that you couldn't jump from bronze to gold but I keep seeing people claiming gold placement after their initial matches.
I agree that a few games doesn't really tell you much, maybe you were lucky (or unlucky) maybe they dropped the match due to disconnect or other problem.
For those who feel they are "stuck in bronze" I wonder if their last 5 matches would have placed them differently though. I guess if they are only playing other bronzes it says something but I think the bar has risen.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
You would think that you couldn't jump from bronze to gold but I keep seeing people claiming gold placement after their initial matches.
I agree that a few games doesn't really tell you much, maybe you were lucky (or unlucky) maybe they dropped the match due to disconnect or other problem.
For those who feel they are "stuck in bronze" I wonder if their last 5 matches would have placed them differently though. I guess if they are only playing other bronzes it says something but I think the bar has risen.
It doesn't really matter. Even if the "high bronze" got a fresh start and did well enough to get a gold/silver placement, they'd likely deteriorate back to bronze the longer they played. Even someone stuck in bronze at a silver MMR but below the confidence threshold would get moved up during the next season.
On March 30 2012 02:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote: It doesn't really matter. Even if the "high bronze" got a fresh start and did well enough to get a gold/silver placement, they'd likely deteriorate back to bronze the longer they played. Even someone stuck in bronze at a silver MMR but below the confidence threshold would get moved up during the next season.
This is true. In season 4, I placed into Gold. Out of curiosity, I used a guest pass to start a second account, which placed into Diamond. I played a bunch on the second account and wound up demoted back to Platinum, and got promoted to Platinum on the first account.
This season, the original account is back in Gold. Haven't tried playing on the second account, but I suspect if I played a bunch of games there, I'd wind up in about the same place.
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
Not sure if you read what he actually wrote?
Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades.
Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression.
What's the issue?
Reps or it didn't happen
With all due respect to the OP, I suspect that this question hinges on differing definitions of "early."
On March 30 2012 02:14 Monkeyballs25 wrote: It doesn't really matter. Even if the "high bronze" got a fresh start and did well enough to get a gold/silver placement, they'd likely deteriorate back to bronze the longer they played. Even someone stuck in bronze at a silver MMR but below the confidence threshold would get moved up during the next season.
This is true. In season 4, I placed into Gold. Out of curiosity, I used a guest pass to start a second account, which placed into Diamond. I played a bunch on the second account and wound up demoted back to Platinum, and got promoted to Platinum on the first account.
This season, the original account is back in Gold. Haven't tried playing on the second account, but I suspect if I played a bunch of games there, I'd wind up in about the same place.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
Hard to say, but 5 placements + 3 games won't really give you a solid picture of your league just yet. I've read on the forums of people losing all but one of their placements, winning because of an instaleaver, and landing in gold or silver. But a "high bronze" is unlikely to really be anywhere other than silver. I don't think the confidence threshold is THAT big that it'd keep someone with a gold MMR in bronze.
That happened to me. I won my first placement match handily, then my next opponent left at the start. I proceeded to then lose 3 ZvPs in a row, and I was placed into Gold.
I don't play much, like maybe average 10 games a week so I've been silver for awhile now (will be 2 seasons next season, started playing during the season 4 lock) and I'm fairly confident that if I started a new account I'd get placed into gold and stay there because as a top 8 silver I beat so many top 25 gold who are absolutely terrible. As I've said in an earlier post about ranks not mattering, I'm facing top 8 silver and top 25 gold or higher exclusively and its always a closer game against the top 8 silvers whereas the top 25 golds I normally steam roll.
On March 30 2012 06:11 facemelterr wrote: wasnt sure when they stopped allowing guess passes to play ladder.
Oh. There are "guest passes" which allow a certain limited number of hours of unrestricted play (I think seven hours.) Two of these were included in the WoW Cataclysm CE, and that's what I used. There's also a "starter edition" which is a free-to-play version of SC2 that has no time limit but a very restricted set of maps, and which can't be used for ladder play.
Edit: To try to steer this back to the thread topic, if a bronze player (or anyone) wants to see if a fresh start would help them with laddering psychologically, locating one of those older guest passes is the way to try it. It's an interesting experience being dropped into a different segment of the ladder, though it generally won't take long to wind up where you started.
I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
I'm just the same as you, OP. I'm also in bronze league, watch streams/day9, review my own games. But I do enjoy bronze league and I played through the campaign and I simply love the game.
On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote: I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
Its quite possible yeah. Most people probably aren't that bothered to do stuff like benchmarking their worker/supply counts at various times vs top players a) because its too much work for a casual player b) cos its very depressing so they never notice how big an effect those missed workers, supply blocks and late expands amount to over time.
Then there's micro. Its not always obvious from watching a vod or stream that any good player doing micro is also keeping up with their macro at home because the camera doesn't always swap back, so they assume the pros are 100% focused on the micro and do the same themselves. I had a ZvT on Taldarim Altar where the guy was sieging my natural from behind the minerals on the lowground and elevatoring marines up, very fancy. Nearly beat me right there by killing the hatch, and he says as much before he eventually ggs after I make a comeback. Then I go look at the replay and he's floating several thousand minerals. He literally had no idea how easily he could have won with a little more macro.
The thing that gave me the most insight into "how the game is played" was from watching pro's pov. They shave the game into incredibly tiny time slices and spread them around the map. Watching it made me dizzy at first since I didn't know where they were going next but after a while I saw that they hold a mental picture of each area they are time slicing and then just refresh over and over again. It was a real eye opener.
Let me preface this by stating that I absolutely love Starcraft... For the last 5-6 years I have been watching tons of OSL, MSL, GSL, MLG and other Starcraft related abbreviations. I have a pretty fair understanding of the game in relation to build orders, counters, current pro level metagame etc. I am in Bronze League :-)
So enough prefacing - here goes:
I have a demanding office job. I have a wife (who also works) and two kids. I have a house with a garden. On a regular week day; Once I have dragged my ass home, had dinner with the wife/kids, picked up all the shit the kids drop around the house, read a bedtime story to them, maybe pay a couple of bills, feel up the wife for 10 minutes (if lucky), watch a couple of VODS from GSL - then I MIGHT feel like playing some Starcraft afterwards for 60-90 minutes.
It is my absolute favorite pass-time... If I have time :-)
My point is this: 1: I know which facets of my game, I need to improve on to advance to higher leagues - but I just don't put the time into practicing enough. Basically it comes down to lacking APM, mechanics, speed, precision etc. for me. 2: I greatly appreciate Blizzard's multiple leagues and matching system. Whenever I played Broodwar online, I would get absolutely slaughtered by higher caliber nerds within 10 minutes max. Almost every time. 3: I AM HAVING SO MUCH FUN playing Starcraft II. If I play 10 games, I will still get rushed or completely outplayed 2-3 times. I will also be matched against complete noobs fitting the Gheed description 2-3 times. And the rest of the matches are tons of fun even matches in the 20-30 minute range. 4: I have no personal needs or insecurities requiring me to be in Platinum league to be happy with myself or with the game of StarCraft. I do not need or want 20 replies to this post, on how I could improve. When I walk into the street on any given sunday, noone knows which league I am placed in, and the majority of them don't give a shit. I do not play to compete - I play to enjoy myself with a brilliant hobby. And that I do - probably twice a week for a bit more than an hour. AND I LOVE IT.
I am not quite sure about this thread.... I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote: I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
Dunno.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. If you stop looking at it as "people in bronze can't analyze their own games" and instead start looking at it as "if you don't analyze your own games, you'll end up in bronze" then it makes a lot more sense.
I feel like people in bronze are mostly the people who simply don't *want* to get better at the game. They enjoy doing whatever they want and still being able to win half of their games, instead of putting in effort to get better. I have several friends who log on for an hour or two a week and basically just build whatever they feel like, and if I try to tell them what they can do better, they just say "it's not like it matters, it's just a game".
On March 31 2012 00:04 kochanfe wrote: This thread is kinda silly
Actually no it isnt. It is a demonstration of a fundamentally broken view point on the world that the vast majority of people have and causes a great deal of unhappiness.
Rather than be content people want more. That is not happiness. Happiness is contentment with what you got. But that isn;t progress. The idea of improvement is synominous with being unhappy interspersed with joyful moments.
BTW when i say fundementally broken I dont mean you fail because of your world view. I have a great deal of respect for any view like that they are all fairly valid in that they all break in some way. so don't go all nerd rage on me ... it doesn't work.
And i was having a chilled out game last night when some terran dropped me whilst atacking my front ... that has never happened in silver (sure in gold occasionally very rarely). So i was impressed and dealt with it - i had a terribel sim city so was fairly inefficient as my banelings had to roll around half the map. I rediscovered why on antiga i dont block the rear of my mineral line with buildings.
Anyway a few mins later I get poked at the front ... then dropped in my main ... but THEN he retreated there to instantly drop my third! Thats 3 ctrl groups of units ... in silver! Was pretty awesome to get owned that hard tbh. This is in fucking silver!!! That guy was playing WAAAAYYYY above the average silver bear. Now hes a complete outlier but some players down here can actually execute something that at least requires a little bit of skill, practice and refinement - when they want to.
On March 29 2012 20:57 MrTortoise wrote: RTS games used to be played VERY differently. Then the tank rush appeared and the game totally changed. Yeah you can macro your ass off and just win by having more shit ... but that isn't necessarily the most fun way to play.
Maybe bronzies are better because they knowingly handicap themselves, dont give a shit and still try to win? Maybe that is far more meaningful than mechanically executing the same build you have done hundreds of times before?
My take on it is that no matter what you're doing, goofing around is a form of masturbation: it's fun but at the end of the day you aren't getting the most out of what you have to play with.
Now, not every pursuit in life needs to be taken seriously. There's always room for a bit of tossing off. But if that's what you choose to do, don't sneer at the people settling down and having kids, or call what you're doing 'more meaningful'.
Your preaching to the choir i'm afraid.But you are defining 'most' in a very narrow way. I am most certainly not sneering at people settling down to have kids ... they seem to realise that what league your in has its place in the world
On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote: I am not quite sure about this thread.... I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week?
On March 31 2012 00:04 kochanfe wrote: This thread is kinda silly
Actually no it isnt. It is a demonstration of a fundamentally broken view point on the world that the vast majority of people have and causes a great deal of unhappiness.
Rather than be content people want more. That is not happiness. Happiness is contentment with what you got. But that isn;t progress. The idea of improvement is synominous with being unhappy interspersed with joyful moments.
BTW when i say fundementally broken I dont mean you fail because of your world view. I have a great deal of respect for any view like that they are all fairly valid in that they all break in some way. so don't go all nerd rage on me ... it doesn't work.
And i was having a chilled out game last night when some terran dropped me whilst atacking my front ... that has never happened in silver (sure in gold occasionally very rarely). So i was impressed and dealt with it - i had a terribel sim city so was fairly inefficient as my banelings had to roll around half the map. I rediscovered why on antiga i dont block the rear of my mineral line with buildings.
Anyway a few mins later I get poked at the front ... then dropped in my main ... but THEN he retreated there to instantly drop my third! Thats 3 ctrl groups of units ... in silver! Was pretty awesome to get owned that hard tbh. This is in fucking silver!!! That guy was playing WAAAAYYYY above the average silver bear. Now hes a complete outlier but some players down here can actually execute something that at least requires a little bit of skill, practice and refinement - when they want to.
On March 29 2012 20:57 MrTortoise wrote: RTS games used to be played VERY differently. Then the tank rush appeared and the game totally changed. Yeah you can macro your ass off and just win by having more shit ... but that isn't necessarily the most fun way to play.
Maybe bronzies are better because they knowingly handicap themselves, dont give a shit and still try to win? Maybe that is far more meaningful than mechanically executing the same build you have done hundreds of times before?
My take on it is that no matter what you're doing, goofing around is a form of masturbation: it's fun but at the end of the day you aren't getting the most out of what you have to play with.
Now, not every pursuit in life needs to be taken seriously. There's always room for a bit of tossing off. But if that's what you choose to do, don't sneer at the people settling down and having kids, or call what you're doing 'more meaningful'.
Your preaching to the choir i'm afraid.But you are defining 'most' in a very narrow way. I am most certainly not sneering at people settling down to have kids ... they seem to realise that what league your in has its place in the world
We do! :-) I am 37 years old btw. Thank you for this post :-)
On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote: I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
How hard are they? The entire page of problems took me about 3 seconds to solve (well one of them actually i had to think about - the rest i just look at and see the solution as plain as you can read this text) So how hard are they?
you have no way of knowing (unless you know how to play) but then you probably wouldn't of made your post (Btw if you wanted to solve them you'd need to play for 6 years at least about 5 hours a day and analyse your play like you do sc2. Many people will never get good enough to solve them. No matter how good you think you are at sc2 you refinement skills will be abysmal in comparison to people who have got good at other games because rts has only been around for about 15 years, imagine 1000 years of metagame. So get off your high horse m8)
The problem is imagine how a bronze player describes what happens in a game ... what words and things do you think they pick out. Now think of how nestea thinks about the game and how he would describe it. IE verbally replay the game play by play.
It is completely utterly different they simply do not perceive what others do and their priorities are different.
So no When i download a random replay of nestea and watch them i have to verify that it is actually him - because whilst some of what he does is clearly high level from the replay he for quite a lot of it does look like a silver level player. Because its *lots* of *tiny* things done differently that add up to a huge difference. It is those tiny things that are hugley significant for good players but really are invisible unless you know to look for them or have named them (because then they are invisible to communication)
On March 31 2012 00:04 kochanfe wrote: This thread is kinda silly
Actually no it isnt. It is a demonstration of a fundamentally broken view point on the world that the vast majority of people have and causes a great deal of unhappiness.
Rather than be content people want more. That is not happiness. Happiness is contentment with what you got. But that isn;t progress. The idea of improvement is synominous with being unhappy interspersed with joyful moments.
BTW when i say fundementally broken I dont mean you fail because of your world view. I have a great deal of respect for any view like that they are all fairly valid in that they all break in some way. so don't go all nerd rage on me ... it doesn't work.
And i was having a chilled out game last night when some terran dropped me whilst atacking my front ... that has never happened in silver (sure in gold occasionally very rarely). So i was impressed and dealt with it - i had a terribel sim city so was fairly inefficient as my banelings had to roll around half the map. I rediscovered why on antiga i dont block the rear of my mineral line with buildings.
Anyway a few mins later I get poked at the front ... then dropped in my main ... but THEN he retreated there to instantly drop my third! Thats 3 ctrl groups of units ... in silver! Was pretty awesome to get owned that hard tbh. This is in fucking silver!!! That guy was playing WAAAAYYYY above the average silver bear. Now hes a complete outlier but some players down here can actually execute something that at least requires a little bit of skill, practice and refinement - when they want to.
On March 29 2012 21:45 Umpteen wrote:
On March 29 2012 20:57 MrTortoise wrote: RTS games used to be played VERY differently. Then the tank rush appeared and the game totally changed. Yeah you can macro your ass off and just win by having more shit ... but that isn't necessarily the most fun way to play.
Maybe bronzies are better because they knowingly handicap themselves, dont give a shit and still try to win? Maybe that is far more meaningful than mechanically executing the same build you have done hundreds of times before?
My take on it is that no matter what you're doing, goofing around is a form of masturbation: it's fun but at the end of the day you aren't getting the most out of what you have to play with.
Now, not every pursuit in life needs to be taken seriously. There's always room for a bit of tossing off. But if that's what you choose to do, don't sneer at the people settling down and having kids, or call what you're doing 'more meaningful'.
Your preaching to the choir i'm afraid.But you are defining 'most' in a very narrow way. I am most certainly not sneering at people settling down to have kids ... they seem to realise that what league your in has its place in the world
We do! :-) I am 37 years old btw. Thank you for this post :-)
ahh am 31 and daren't do the kids thing yet I'm not sure i'm in a high enough league at life yet. Or some bs like that. :D
On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote: I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
How hard are they? The entire page of problems took me about 3 seconds to solve (well one of them actually i had to think about - the rest i just look at and see the solution as plain as you can read this text) So how hard are they?
you have no way of knowing (unless you know how to play) but then you probably wouldn't of made your post
The problem is imagine how a bronze player describes what happens in a game ... what words and things do you think they pick out. Now think of how nestea thinks about the game and how he would describe it.
It is completely utterly different they simply do not perceive what others do and their priorities are different.
So no When i download a random replay of nestea and watch them i have to verify that it is actually him - because whilst some of what he does is clearly high level from the replay he for quite a lot of it does look like a silver level player. Because its *lots* of *tiny* things done differently that add up to a huge difference.
There's actually quite a lot of big things that Nestea does different than Silver level players. A LOT of BIG things.
On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote: I am not quite sure about this thread.... I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week?
I know you weren't talking to me, but I can't accept that because I don't have any time to practice either and I'm not stuck in bronze.
I'm almost 38. I have a wife and a five year old daughter. The theoretical maximum I can play is 1 hour each weekday at lunch, plus two hours one evening per week. I do not achieve that, because I often work through lunch. I'd say I play for 3-5 hours per week, with most weeks erring on the low side.
After being stuck in silver for months, I realised that my decision-making and overall understanding of what to do under what circumstances was holding me back. This allowed me to jump up to gold league in a matter of a few days.
So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable.
On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote: I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
How hard are they? The entire page of problems took me about 3 seconds to solve (well one of them actually i had to think about - the rest i just look at and see the solution as plain as you can read this text) So how hard are they?
you have no way of knowing (unless you know how to play) but then you probably wouldn't of made your post (Btw if you wanted to solve them you'd need to play for 6 years about 5 hours a day and analyse your play like you do sc2)
The problem is imagine how a bronze player describes what happens in a game ... what words and things do you think they pick out. Now think of how nestea thinks about the game and how he would describe it.
It is completely utterly different they simply do not perceive what others do and their priorities are different.
So no When i download a random replay of nestea and watch them i have to verify that it is actually him - because whilst some of what he does is clearly high level from the replay he for quite a lot of it does look like a silver level player. Because its *lots* of *tiny* things done differently that add up to a huge difference.
On March 31 2012 00:04 kochanfe wrote: This thread is kinda silly
Actually no it isnt. It is a demonstration of a fundamentally broken view point on the world that the vast majority of people have and causes a great deal of unhappiness.
Rather than be content people want more. That is not happiness. Happiness is contentment with what you got. But that isn;t progress. The idea of improvement is synominous with being unhappy interspersed with joyful moments.
BTW when i say fundementally broken I dont mean you fail because of your world view. I have a great deal of respect for any view like that they are all fairly valid in that they all break in some way. so don't go all nerd rage on me ... it doesn't work.
And i was having a chilled out game last night when some terran dropped me whilst atacking my front ... that has never happened in silver (sure in gold occasionally very rarely). So i was impressed and dealt with it - i had a terribel sim city so was fairly inefficient as my banelings had to roll around half the map. I rediscovered why on antiga i dont block the rear of my mineral line with buildings.
Anyway a few mins later I get poked at the front ... then dropped in my main ... but THEN he retreated there to instantly drop my third! Thats 3 ctrl groups of units ... in silver! Was pretty awesome to get owned that hard tbh. This is in fucking silver!!! That guy was playing WAAAAYYYY above the average silver bear. Now hes a complete outlier but some players down here can actually execute something that at least requires a little bit of skill, practice and refinement - when they want to.
On March 29 2012 21:45 Umpteen wrote:
On March 29 2012 20:57 MrTortoise wrote: RTS games used to be played VERY differently. Then the tank rush appeared and the game totally changed. Yeah you can macro your ass off and just win by having more shit ... but that isn't necessarily the most fun way to play.
Maybe bronzies are better because they knowingly handicap themselves, dont give a shit and still try to win? Maybe that is far more meaningful than mechanically executing the same build you have done hundreds of times before?
My take on it is that no matter what you're doing, goofing around is a form of masturbation: it's fun but at the end of the day you aren't getting the most out of what you have to play with.
Now, not every pursuit in life needs to be taken seriously. There's always room for a bit of tossing off. But if that's what you choose to do, don't sneer at the people settling down and having kids, or call what you're doing 'more meaningful'.
Your preaching to the choir i'm afraid.But you are defining 'most' in a very narrow way. I am most certainly not sneering at people settling down to have kids ... they seem to realise that what league your in has its place in the world
We do! :-) I am 37 years old btw. Thank you for this post :-)
ahh am 31 and daren't do the kids thing yet I'm not sure i'm in a high enough league at life yet. Or some bs like that. :D
The difference is, for people who don't play Go and don't even know the rules (like me), it's like asking a person why a pro got infestors instead of mutas in a TvZ when the guy doesn't even know what a marine is. Your analogy doesn't work. Silver players know what all the units are, they know what they do, they even know what "counters" what.
On March 31 2012 00:44 Umpteen wrote: So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable.
When a bronze player (or a gold player like you or me) say that they "understand" anything or that an aspect of their game is "good," they're comparing it to where they personally used to be. They're not, in any practical sense, comparing it to better players. It's a way of saying "I've already worked on thing X a bunch, I feel I should be working on other thing Y at this point." The problem, if anything, is not realizing how much better thing X that they feel they've significantly improved (and probably have!) can get.
For example, I miss a lot of the meaning of what I scout, but the list of things I can recognize or rule out based on what I see is growing over time. I feel my ability in this area's a lot better than it used to be, but I have no doubt that a pro looking over my replay would shake his head and say "how could you not see that coming?" when I scout and don't understand.
And yeah, it's pretty easy, after a game where I got detection fifteen seconds before the right-on-time DT rush arrived, to pat myself on the back and say "hey I'm getting good at this!" And yeah, compared to six months ago, that's the case, but compared to where I'd like to be, it's not.
On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote: I am not quite sure about this thread.... I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week?
I know you weren't talking to me, but I can't accept that because I don't have any time to practice either and I'm not stuck in bronze.
I'm almost 38. I have a wife and a five year old daughter. The theoretical maximum I can play is 1 hour each weekday at lunch, plus two hours one evening per week. I do not achieve that, because I often work through lunch. I'd say I play for 3-5 hours per week, with most weeks erring on the low side.
After being stuck in silver for months, I realised that my decision-making and overall understanding of what to do under what circumstances was holding me back. This allowed me to jump up to gold league in a matter of a few days.
So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable.
1: Good job! (no sarcasm intended) 2: Well... My macro is not good. Definately not perfect by any standard. The first 10 minutes is ok, but once I am on 3 bases things tend to get out of hand :-) 3: Can you at least accept that Bronze players actually CAN be happy and content with where they are placed leaguewise, and enjoy the game without the need to hear shit from everyone else? Not all, but some. 4: I mean... seriously: Who in the real world gives a shit?
Edit: The reason I am getting in to this debate is pretty much this: The OP just wanted to play some fun games with some likeminded players in bronze, and the whole thread turned into a ton of posts on how bad and lame he must be and how to improve. How about everybody just letting us measly bronze players have some fucking fun?!
On March 30 2012 07:05 Fission wrote: I'm a bit undecided on what the deal is with bronze players. It feels like they are simply incapable of meaningful critical self-reflection on their play compared to objective standards. There are so, so many bronze players in this thread comparing their games to masters/gm/pro level games, when there is literally zero similarity.
On one hand, the leagues are demographically isolated by design, so it makes sense that bronze players only face people of similar skill level, and wouldn't have a point of reference.
On the other hand, there are millions of streams/vods/replays available, so I feel like the difference should be obvious.
How hard are they? The entire page of problems took me about 3 seconds to solve (well one of them actually i had to think about - the rest i just look at and see the solution as plain as you can read this text) So how hard are they?
you have no way of knowing (unless you know how to play) but then you probably wouldn't of made your post (Btw if you wanted to solve them you'd need to play for 6 years at least about 5 hours a day and analyse your play like you do sc2. Many people will never get good enough to solve them. No matter how good you think you are at sc2 you refinement skills will be abysmal in comparison to people who have got good at other games because rts has only been around for about 15 years, imagine 1000 years of metagame. So get off your high horse m8)
The problem is imagine how a bronze player describes what happens in a game ... what words and things do you think they pick out. Now think of how nestea thinks about the game and how he would describe it. IE verbally replay the game play by play.
It is completely utterly different they simply do not perceive what others do and their priorities are different.
So no When i download a random replay of nestea and watch them i have to verify that it is actually him - because whilst some of what he does is clearly high level from the replay he for quite a lot of it does look like a silver level player. Because its *lots* of *tiny* things done differently that add up to a huge difference. It is those tiny things that are hugley significant for good players but really are invisible unless you know to look for them or have named them (because then they are invisible to communication)
Mr. Tortoise, I think you are misunderstanding what I was trying to say. I'm not trying to sneer at the analysis capabilities of bronze league players from "up on my horse", as you suggest. I'm pondering how it can be that some individuals can look at their own replays and not see significant differences between their play and "ideal" play, even with respect to quantitative facets.
For example, many players in this thread and from my personal experience coaching have claimed to have "continuous worker production", and "never floating minerals", but when they post the replays in question, it is found that they do not have continuous worker production, and they are floating thousands of minerals, or w/e.
My question is how this discrepancy in analysis occurs, for there doesn't seem to be any reason why it should be the case. I agree that many aspects of a replay will be interpreted/understood differently by people of different skill levels, but there are aspects that are too simple for this to play a role in. My claim was that the only reasonable conclusion was that bronze players are just not looking at their replays in a meaningful critical way, or as another poster suggested, that the lack of meaningful critical analysis will lead you to bronze (I disagree with this, though).
On March 31 2012 00:45 PeanutsNJam wrote: Silver players know what all the units are, they know what they do, they even know what "counters" what.
This right here is all the evidence you need to know that the lower leagues have improved since launch. :D
Silver players have always known what the units are, what they do, and what "counters" what. It's like knowing the basic rules to any game. You have to roll the dice, and move that number of spaces on the board for Monopoly. It's the most basic knowledge. How do you play the game when you don't know that a marauder can't shoot air?
In fact, it's something you learn through the campaign, so players who aren't even bronze should know this stuff.
The reason I am getting in to this debate in the first place is pretty much this: The OP just wanted to play some fun games with some likeminded players in bronze, and the whole thread turned into a ton of posts on how bad and lame he must be and how to improve. How about everybody just letting us measly bronze players have some fucking fun?!
On March 31 2012 01:01 PeanutsNJam wrote: Silver players have always known what the units are, what they do, and what "counters" what. It's like knowing the basic rules to any game. You have to roll the dice, and move that number of spaces on the board for Monopoly. It's the most basic knowledge. How do you play the game when you don't know that a marauder can't shoot air?
Yeah, you'd expect so, but the play in July of 2010 was really, really bad. Go back and watch some old replays.
Anyway, that's all neither here nor there. I believe that someone who's top bronze today probably could have placed in gold at release, but the problem for someone who plays actively and is in bronze, today, is how to improve faster, not whether they've picked anything up at all.
For example, many players in this thread have claimed to have "continuous worker production", and "never floating minerals", but when they post the replays in question, it is found that they do not have continuous worker production, and they are floating thousands of minerals, or w/e.
I'm confused. I've looked at most of the replays posted in this thread, and I don't recall any of those people claiming either of those two things. In fact, when someone says "hey, you're cutting workers," or "you're floating a ton of minerals," their responses have been to say things like "thank you."
On March 31 2012 01:03 jammedk wrote: The reason I am getting in to this debate in the first place is pretty much this: The OP just wanted to play some fun games with some likeminded players in bronze, and the whole thread turned into a ton of posts on how bad and lame he must be and how to improve. How about everybody just letting us measly bronze players have some fucking fun?!
It seems like the OP is saying that the reason he's stuck in bronze is anybody and anything's fault but his own, and that there is no way he can possible get better. He's not looking for other bronze players to play with. He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against. It's like saying "I got 20% on my test... oh well, it's the best I can possibly do despite studying 2 hours every day."
If you study 2 hours a day for a final exam in any class that you're currently taking for, say, a week, and get less than 20%, you have to be mentally impaired. (As long as the class isn't curved so a 20% is actually like a 80%). Sure, the guy who never goes to class and crams for 1 hour the night before can get a 20%, which is perfectly normal...
On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote: He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against.
I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what?
If you study 2 hours a day for a final exam in any class that you're currently taking for, say, a week, and get less than 20%, you have to be mentally impaired. (As long as the class isn't curved so a 20% is actually like a 80%).
Whenever people come out with this "mentally impaired" nonsense, I rage, because it's ludicrous. First, playing two hours is not studying the game for two hours. Second, how much time it takes to get to a certain point on the curve depends an awful lot on one's starting point, and while there are a decent number of TL people who have started at zero and done pretty well, there are also a lot of people who started at zero and are still bronze a year and a half later because they didn't care to get serious enough about the game.
On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote: He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against.
I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what?
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
Read my edit. Improving, particularly for a new player, takes a lot more than just playing the game. I started with this game at zero and just about all of my meaningful improvement was from seeing other people doing things that honestly never would have occurred to me until I knew they were possible. (Queueing commands! Making hotkey groups! Looking one place on the map while doing something somewhere else!)
If you're doing it wrongly, you don't get better by doing it wrongly over and over again, two hours a day or ten hours a day.
On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote: He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against.
I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what?
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote: He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against.
I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what?
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
Read my edit. Improving, particularly for a new player, takes a lot more than just playing the game. I started with this game at zero and just about all of my meaningful improvement was from seeing other people doing things that honestly never would have occurred to me until I knew they were possible. (Queueing commands! Making hotkey groups! Looking one place on the map while doing something somewhere else!)
If you're doing it wrongly, you don't get better by doing it wrongly over and over again, two hours a day or ten hours a day.
He watches day9. If that's not "studying," I don't know what is.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote: He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against.
I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what?
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
Nobody cares that there are bad players. What is annoying people is bad players a., justifying their badness by saying that the leagues are harder now, b., arguing that they actually aren't bad, or c., expecting us to be happy that they are bad.
Personally, the lack of introspection and refusal to take responsibility for their own actions (I'm bronze because of cheesers, because it won't promote me, because of smurfs, because of I don't have enough free time, etc) is almost enraging.
If people are content with being bronze, fine. But that's on THEM, nobody else. If the thread was "I'm bronze, here's some fun games I played, anyone want to play?" nobody would have given a shit (it probably would have been closed). Instead it has become a circlejerk of shared delusions and white knighting.
I'm platinum because I never play SC2 and when I do I'm bad at it. No excuses. You won't see me arguing that I have a "high level understanding of the game" or "good macro," because I don't.
On March 31 2012 01:07 PeanutsNJam wrote: He's trying to say "bronze is good enough", which people are arguing against.
I don't see why anyone should argue with him about this. It's not like his league status matters personally to the people who are telling him he's bad. If the point is to tell him that he doesn't have enough competitive spirit, well, yeah, so what?
You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The question is more likely: Why do you even give a fuck? He NEVER asked for advice. He said he was content. But still even silver and gold league players feel the need to fix his situation.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: You're taking what I'm saying out of context. It's normal for the guy who doesn't care about his final exam (Starcraft 2 league) and doesn't do anything to get a 20%. It's not normal for a guy who studies 2 hours every day to get less than 20%.
Read my edit. Improving, particularly for a new player, takes a lot more than just playing the game. I started with this game at zero and just about all of my meaningful improvement was from seeing other people doing things that honestly never would have occurred to me until I knew they were possible. (Queueing commands! Making hotkey groups! Looking one place on the map while doing something somewhere else!)
If you're doing it wrongly, you don't get better by doing it wrongly over and over again, two hours a day or ten hours a day.
He watches day9. If that's not "studying," I don't know what is.
So obviously he's bad at learning I think you're being a bit of an armchair psychologist here. His opening post is basically "I've tried to get out of bronze and failed, but I'm realised that I'm actually pretty happy here now so I don't care that much. Does anyone else feel this way?"
And I can totally sympathise with him. Why spend a great deal of mental effort trying to untangle whatever cognitive block is holding him back when he's perfectly happy where he is? Its just that Teamliquid, with its rather more serious business view of SC2, is a bad place to look for support for a laid back fun-loving bronzie.
On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote: I am not quite sure about this thread.... I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week?
Because it doesn't require "40+ games a week" to get out of bronze. I've gradually moved from bronze up to gold playing less than 10 games a week over the past two years. Getting out of bronze doesn't take great amounts of time or blazing fast hands (I average 30-50 Blizz APM IIRC). Improving efficiently like that simply takes a focused approach. For me, it was a focus on not getting supply blocked, and coming back to my hatcheries to produce more units after doing anything else. That (combined with some basic build orders and scouting/timing knowledge) got me into gold
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
On March 31 2012 01:40 Gheed wrote: What is annoying people is bad players a., justifying their badness by saying that the leagues are harder now
Much of the argument in this thread that the leagues are better now than they used to be has not come from bronze players. I've argued it, frequently, but that has nothing to do with my own play -- I'm just interested in the MMR system and how it works, including (but not limited to) trends over time. My personal feeling is that where I am right now, bouncing between gold and platinum, hasn't really changed that much in a long while, because climbing out of that zone requires improving certain skills that require focused practice and a lot of the people there can't be bothered.
I'm platinum because I never play SC2 and when I do I'm bad at it. No excuses. You won't see me arguing that I have a "high level understanding of the game" or "good macro," because I don't.
I'd say the same for myself, though I don't find it frustrating when bronze players say those things, just informative. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, though, being in bronze doesn't necessarily preclude a person from being good at one specific task -- it just means they are likely to have problems with a wide range of other things to compensate.
On March 31 2012 01:40 Gheed wrote: What is annoying people is bad players a., justifying their badness by saying that the leagues are harder now
Much of the argument in this thread that the leagues are better now than they used to be has not come from bronze players. I've argued it, frequently, but that has nothing to do with my own play -- I'm just interested in the MMR system and how it works, including (but not limited to) trends over time. My personal feeling is that where I am right now, bouncing between gold and platinum, hasn't really changed that much in a long while, because climbing out of that zone requires improving certain skills that require focused practice and a lot of the people there can't be bothered.
I'm platinum because I never play SC2 and when I do I'm bad at it. No excuses. You won't see me arguing that I have a "high level understanding of the game" or "good macro," because I don't.[/QUOTE]
I'd say the same for myself, though I don't find it frustrating when bronze players say those things, just informative. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, though, being in bronze doesn't necessarily preclude a person from being good at one specific task -- it just means they are likely to have problems with a wide range of other things to compensate.[/QUOTE]
Fair, I agree with "bronze players... have a wide range of other things to compensate" but there is absolutely no way that a bronze player can have the same game knowledge as a pro player or even a high masters player. You may think you know as much as them but in reality you don't even have close to the same game sense or knowledge. It's always easy to watch a pro player and say you could do that but you can't, not just because you're too slow etc... which is fine I don't mean to insult anyone but, it's really annoying when people claim to be 'knowledgeable' and just lack execution or speed because there's absolutely no way you could know certain things without having played in the same situation. Some things you can't learn by watching.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment?
Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years.
Still not seeming like a huge time investment?
Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice.
STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment?
Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years.
Still not seeming like a huge time investment?
Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice.
STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
20 minutes per game is around 30 in game minutes per game. It's more like 12 minutes per game. And out of my 5 friends who started Starcraft 2 knowing nothing, it took the slowest guy 3 weeks to get out of bronze. But let's say you do 10 games a week for 4 months (which is plenty enough time to get out of bronze), that's 32 hours.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment?
Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years.
Still not seeming like a huge time investment?
Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice.
STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
Of course practice matters, I never said otherwise. I was responding to a post saying it required more than 40 games a week to get out of bronze. I also said I play less than 10 games a week, not that I play 10 games a week. As I said earlier in this thread, I have 105 ladder wins on my account (so around 200 games played). Using your 20 min per game number, that comes out to about 70 hours over 2 years, or less than an hour of playing per week.
Now to go back to your argument, 10 games at 20 mins each would be about three hours of playing. That's not a "huge time investment", it's a fairly reasonable amount of time to spend on a hobby, and is roughly equal to watching a single game of your <insert sport of choice here>.
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment?
Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years.
Still not seeming like a huge time investment?
Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice.
STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
More likely what is making your brain hurt is your faulty logic.
Now if you're saying you're content just being in bronze and doing whatever you want, then more power to you. This is a game and you should enjoy it. But the assertion that getting out of bronze requires huge time investments is blatantly false.
What kind of an idiot doesn't think 10 games a week for 2 years isn't a huge time investment?
Just for interest sake, at a mean time of 20 minutes per game that's nearly 350 hours spent playing over those 2 years.
Still not seeming like a huge time investment?
Also... Deliberate practice over time is basically the key to improving at anything. It's so frustrating to see someone arguing that practice doesn't matter when they clearly practice.
STOP CLAIMING SOMETHING IS FALSE BASED ON EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT'S TRUE, IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT.
Of course practice matters, I never said otherwise. I was responding to a post saying it required more than 40 games a week to get out of bronze. I also said I play less than 10 games a week, not that I play 10 games a week. As I said earlier in this thread, I have 105 ladder wins on my account (so around 200 games played). Using your 20 min per game number, that comes out to about 70 hours over 2 years, or less than an hour of playing per week.
Now to go back to your argument, 10 games at 20 mins each would be about three hours of playing. That's not a "huge time investment", it's a fairly reasonable amount of time to spend on a hobby, and is roughly equal to watching a single game of your <insert sport of choice here>.
Hmm, its almost as if different people have different starting levels of SC2 ability, and progress at different rates.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That's about what you're shooting for. I think they can pop at 4:50 but I haven't done the build in ages. Try this:
This should get you to the top of Silver and into Gold. The keys to focus on is not just getting your all-in opening right but also on sustaining it. ie to continue streaming units without floating resources, getting supply blocked, making dumb mistakes ie bad rallies, sitting around.
It's going to seem kind of mind-numbing but you'll win a lot of games and your mechanics will improve with repetition. If you're screwing up the build every other game, then imagine how much harder it will be to perfect your mechanics off of three bases. It's better to minimize the variables, tighten them up, then progress to 2-base all-ins/timings.
All-ins are a part of the game. Anytime I see a Toss 1 gate FE or a Terran 1 rax FE or CC first, I all-in them because it's just too greedy. To be a solid all-around player, you need to know when and how to punish overly greedy builds.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
I've been doing 14g/14p for pretty much every game for a while now... once I get my 21 expo up then I decide whether to go ling/bling, roaches, muta/ling etc.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
Oh don't be ridiculous. 7RR at 4:58 is decent and I'm sure he'll take some games with it, but any half-arsed Terran in silver(by which I mean me) could probably hold it. It certainly won't "kill every Terran" from bronze to plat. http://drop.sc/148235
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
I've been doing 14g/14p for pretty much every game for a while now... once I get my 21 expo up then I decide whether to go ling/bling, roaches, muta/ling etc.
If you don't want to revert to 1-base play, you can try 2-base timings.
vT: Evo baneling bust off 2 gas off 28 drones vZ: Roach +1 timing vP: Roach/ling bust at 8:30
14g/14p is solid. Against Terran you should open 15h/15p as it's far superior and there's really not much the Terran can do. 11/11 can be held with that build if you pull all but 5 drones and nobody in your league will be able to pull off an 11/11 properly.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
Oh don't be ridiculous. 7RR at 4:58 is decent and I'm sure he'll take some games with it, but any half-arsed Terran in silver(by which I mean me) could probably hold it. It certainly won't "kill every Terran" from bronze to plat. http://drop.sc/148235
It'll kill enough to effectively get him into Gold. If you went Hellion/Marauder every game against Z it'd probably give you an 80% win ratio up until Platinum unless they randomly throw up 10 spines. In which case you pull back and expand while the zerg just wasted too many resources for nothing.
On March 31 2012 02:04 HuShang wrote: Fair, I agree with "bronze players... have a wide range of other things to compensate" but there is absolutely no way that a bronze player can have the same game knowledge as a pro player or even a high masters player.
Yeah, but who's ever actually said that? There are people who claimed to have "good macro" or whatever, but that's not in relation to any objective standard, and certainly not how pros do it.
On March 08 2012 18:25 Defacer wrote: I think that a lot of higher level players (diamond to GM) have a gross misconception of the skill level of players in lower leagues. A gold player now is definitely not the same as a gold player a year ago.
I'm not very good, and stuck in Gold. But since the season 6 maps have come out, I'm absolutely crushing Terran and Protoss with Zerg. I used to lose to a lot of coin-flip builds and all-ins that T and P do at my level, but Cloud Kingdom and Korhal finally gave me a chance to win when I play "the right way".
There's plenty of decent players in the lower leagues that aren't bad, but struggle against cheese, playing for fun or just trying to learn to play 'right'.
As a mid-master in EU server I can confirm. With my smurf I started playing in bronze, and played across the leagues until I reached master also with my second account. People in silver already know how to macro. I can tell that macro between silver and platinum is almost at the same level. In diamond (top) you start to see decent players with very good macro, but below is almost at the same level. The difference is mostly in micro and gamesense and army compositions.
On March 31 2012 01:12 PeanutsNJam wrote: How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
The vast bulk of the information in Day[9]'s dailies and TL's strategy forum presupposes certain basics. Day[9] has done a few excellent dailies on those basics, but they're by far the most dry to watch, and unless a new player knows to watch those three (or so) dailies over and over and over until they've completely mastered every idea in them, watching the rest may well be counterproductive.
If he's just content, why did he post? The purpose of his post was to look for affirmation of his perspective: that he's done everything he can, and it's not his fault he's in bronze. And he's not getting this affirmation.
The guy's probably making a few key mistakes over and over again. This is the kind of situation where having another, better player look over his shoulder would make a huge difference, but it's certainly possible for a normally intelligent person to be completely blind to their own problems if nobody else points them out.
The problems are deeper than basics that are covered in Day[9]'s dailies on "basics". I know because I've watched Mental Checklist, Mental Checklist Exercises, Getting Into Starcraft, Secrets of APM and Mouse Movement, etc etc more times than I care to count. I did the Mental Checklist Exercises until I could keep up with moving and splitting zerglings, injecting, spreading creep, building drones, building units, not getting supply blocked, etc at the same time. I was bronze for the longest time and JUST got promoted to silver after a few wins.
You should be able to make Gold just by practicing a few 2-base timings with minimal requirements for high level strategy. Message me in-game if you want some help. I'm only high Diamond, but I can probably help you out.
PS For those who will inevitably post the "don't all-in, learn to macro scrub", this is misguided advise. Having coached Bronzies into Platinum league and even 1 into Diamond, the most effective way to teach a noobie how to "macro" is to do step-wise goals.
For example: 1) Bronze - Silver: learn to execute a 1-base all-in against each of the 3 races 2) Gold: learn to execute a 2-base all-in against each of the 3 races 3) Platinum: learn to execute a 2-base timing while expanding 4) Diamond: Learn to play on 3 or more bases while adapting to their strategies 5) Master: Dial in timings, builds, adaptations, map variations
99.99% of people do not go to college when they're 8. You go through various levels of training until you're ready.
See, I've tried to stay away from all-ins. I guess I end up losing to them.
I tried 7RR in a game against easy AI the other day and the roaches popped out at 4:58. I didn't think it was too bad for a first try, but how much tighter can that get? Is there a number I can shoot for?
That will kill every Terran in bronze, silver, gold, plat and probably diamond.
That being said I disagree strongly with the posted example, I think you need to work on a specific build over and over for each matchup all the way to masters. You'll die to some stupid shit along the way but you can still get to diamond fairly fast.
Oh don't be ridiculous. 7RR at 4:58 is decent and I'm sure he'll take some games with it, but any half-arsed Terran in silver(by which I mean me) could probably hold it. It certainly won't "kill every Terran" from bronze to plat. http://drop.sc/148235
It'll kill enough to effectively get him into Gold. If you went Hellion/Marauder every game against Z it'd probably give you an 80% win ratio up until Platinum unless they randomly throw up 10 spines. In which case you pull back and expand while the zerg just wasted too many resources for nothing.
Ah yeah, a decent one base timing will secure quite a few wins. I just don't like absolute statements when they're so easily disproven
On March 31 2012 00:44 Umpteen wrote: So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable.
When a bronze player (or a gold player like you or me) say that they "understand" anything or that an aspect of their game is "good," they're comparing it to where they personally used to be. They're not, in any practical sense, comparing it to better players.
I think you're being... overly charitable. Maybe - maybe - some use 'understand' and 'good' in that sense. But the guy to whom I was responding? No, that wasn't what he meant.
If you want to say you've learned, say you've learned. If you want to say your macro has improved, say that. I've learned, and my macro has improved. Do I 'understand strategy'? I would go so far as to say that I grasp the outline of what I would need to understand, and that alone was enough to earn me a promotion.
On March 31 2012 05:21 Umpteen wrote: I think you're being... overly charitable. Maybe - maybe - some use 'understand' and 'good' in that sense. But the guy to whom I was responding? No, that wasn't what he meant.
I didn't say that was what they thought they meant, I said that's what they were doing, whether they're aware of it or not. :D
Edit: I think that almost everyone who plays Starcraft engages in a healthy dose of lying to themselves about how well they're doing, at all levels. I don't have evidence for this, but it's my suspicion.
On March 30 2012 23:47 therockmanxx wrote: I am not quite sure about this thread.... I think that a bronze player is just a guy who either doesnt know how to play,doesnt understand the concept of strategy or is not interested to learn.
It is exactly these types of posts, I was trying to stop with my post... Why can you not just accept, that some people do not have the time to improve their game? A lot of us understand strategy, correct counters and the like, but have shitty slow mechanics because we cannot practice though just 40+ games a week?
I know you weren't talking to me, but I can't accept that because I don't have any time to practice either and I'm not stuck in bronze.
I'm almost 38. I have a wife and a five year old daughter. The theoretical maximum I can play is 1 hour each weekday at lunch, plus two hours one evening per week. I do not achieve that, because I often work through lunch. I'd say I play for 3-5 hours per week, with most weeks erring on the low side.
After being stuck in silver for months, I realised that my decision-making and overall understanding of what to do under what circumstances was holding me back. This allowed me to jump up to gold league in a matter of a few days.
So no, I can't accept that players in bronze league understand strategy and correct counters, any more than I can accept that their macro is 'good', as it is often described. These things make too big a difference too quickly when you grasp them for prolonged bronzage to be explicable.
1: Good job! (no sarcasm intended)
Thanks Seriously, on a personal level I'm pleased with myself because my modus operandi prior to SC2 was to assume I would be naturally awesome at game X and then rage-quit with some half-assed rationalisation when I turned out not to be.
3: Can you at least accept that Bronze players actually CAN be happy and content with where they are placed leaguewise, and enjoy the game without the need to hear shit from everyone else? Not all, but some.
Oh, absolutely. Like I said a few posts ago, everyone is entitled to just goof around if that's what makes them happy. But that's not what this thread is about. For a start, this wasn't a personal blog post, it was posted in SC2 general. And it included this line:
Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.
The OP is not talking about messing about and having fun in bronze. He's trying to sell the implication that you can be doing all those things in an attempt to improve, still be in bronze, and somehow it all adds up. Which it doesn't - if you're doing all those things and you're still in bronze, then you must be doing at least some of those things wrong.
To be clear: if you watch Day9 and GSL for the entertainment and the awesome, and play for the mothership rushes and the lulz, I got your back. I jerk off from time to time just like everyone else. But if you're trying to learn, don't you think it's a shame to fool yourself into believing you're succeeding when actual success might be within reach? Worse: imagine you're fooled by someone else's post on TL.
How about everybody just letting us measly bronze players have some fucking fun?!
Exactly how does your fun in any league depend upon me or anyone else agreeing with you in a discussion thread? Am I stopping you having fun by writing this? Or is it you reading it?
From my extensive experience in the bronze league, all bronze players are absolutely rotten. However, bronze league is still totally awesome fun. You just have awesome fun while being awesome rotten at the same time.
Bronze players are not good. Players in general don't have to care about being good. Fun is subjective, and comes in many different forms.
So at this point I lost the idea of this thread He is looking to improve by playing others Bronze players or He just wanna have fun in Bronze league..... In either cases he'll be silver in a couples of weeks because of practice and this thread will lose meaning lol
[QUOTE]On March 31 2012 05:46 Umpteen wrote: [QUOTE]On March 31 2012 00:55 jammedk wrote:
[quote]Most didn't seem to think it possible that someone play 2+ hours a day, watch Day9, follow the pro scene, review my own games, etc. and remain in bronze league; why, I don't know.[/quote] [quote] The OP is not talking about messing about and having fun in bronze. He's trying to sell the implication that you can be doing all those things in an attempt to improve, still be in bronze, and somehow it all adds up. Which it doesn't - if you're doing all those things and you're still in bronze, then you must be doing at least some of those things wrong.
To be clear: if you watch Day9 and GSL for the entertainment and the awesome, and play for the mothership rushes and the lulz, I got your back. I jerk off from time to time just like everyone else. But if you're trying to learn, don't you think it's a shame to fool yourself into believing you're succeeding when actual success might be within reach? Worse: imagine you're fooled by someone else's post on TL.[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, obviously he's doing stuff wrong, cos he's in bronze Same can be said for pretty much anyone not currently GSL champion.
I mean either you're implying that he's actually lying about trying to improve, or you're just acknowledging that he is training, but not training "the right way". But I doubt that's something you can fix by shouting slogans at him over the internet. You'd probably need someone to coach the crap out of him, and who would want to waste the effort on someone who's totally happy in bronze?
I was in bronze for 1 week tops, if you watch Day 9 and nooby tuesday, or a tourney for inspiration, etc, I think itgets you ready to play and if you know basic macro and micro you can get pretty far (using hotkeys hopefully).
On March 31 2012 06:23 therockmanxx wrote: So at this point I lost the idea of this thread He is looking to improve by playing others Bronze players or He just wanna have fun in Bronze league..... In either cases he'll be silver in a couples of weeks because of practice and this thread will lose meaning lol
If bronze players could get into silver by playing other bronzes for a few weeks, then there'd be no one in bronze Edit : Except for the genuine newbies. Edit : And the portrait farmers. Edit : And the griefer smurfs. Edit : And Gheed.
On March 28 2012 20:31 Morfildur wrote: Apart from obvious portrait farmers, Bronze league consists of 2 types of players and the difference is like Grandmaster and Gold.
This is how most Diamond/Masters/GM people imagine all the leagues below diamond.
On the other hand, there are the mid- to high bronze players who have an idea on what to do, they might even have some rough build orders, game plans, etc., but they are held back by either severe lack of practice, very slow hands, lack of skill or other factors. It's no shame to be in that position.
I've seen some pretty good bronze players when i started a new account and left all placement matches. Sure, even with my current low at platinum i could probably beat them 10 out of 10 times due to mechanics, but they have a basic, solid understanding of the game and of what you are supposed to do and eventhough they need twice as long due to the above mentioned problems, they get there eventually.
As long as they have fun, why not? Improving is great but having fun is even better.
This isn't true in my experience.
My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I play for several hours a day on average.
Not sure if you read what he actually wrote?
Him: On one hand, there is low Bronze, the guys who build 5 cannons at their ramp or a PF in their main base because they mostly play to not die. They never attack until they have a 200/200 army with maximum upgrades.
Me: My games are always filled with lots of early and mid-game aggression.
What's the issue?
Reps or it didn't happen
What part of this is unbelievable enough to need replays?
I mean either you're implying that he's actually lying about trying to improve, or you're just acknowledging that he is training, but not training "the right way". But I doubt that's something you can fix by shouting slogans at him over the internet. You'd probably need someone to coach the crap out of him, and who would want to waste the effort on someone who's totally happy in bronze?
How can you not have competitive spirit when you play 2 hours and watch day9 and read TL strategy? It's likes saying you read all the chapters, do all the homework problems, go over the lecture slides, and take extra tutoring hours, but aren't actually trying to do well on your test.
what I said originally is that there was at time when I was trying more obsessively to get out of bronze and advance. That was from launch up until 4-5 months ago, I suppose.
Although I still do most of those same things now, I have also said a few times that I am still trying to improve just as I always have. However, I have accepted that I am almost certainly not leaving bronze and I'm ok with that.
On March 31 2012 10:59 Apocalypse114 wrote: how do you caounter mass muta with toss? tried stalker and archon and fenix i always lose
No-one can help you with such limited info. We'd need replays. Likely the reason you die to mutas is your opening is executed badly and this introduces an artificial weakness vs. mutas, or you're doing a bad opening which is weak to mutas.
Welcome to TL, I suggest you read 10 commandments thread here.
On March 31 2012 10:59 Apocalypse114 wrote: how do you caounter mass muta with toss? tried stalker and archon and fenix i always lose
Just make more of those units. When you say mass muta what kind of numbers are you talking? When I make a muta ball I stay the fuck away from blink stalkers, stalkers with archons, and large groups of phoenixes, so yeah - I'd say just make more.
So here's some stats from sc2ranks. On the american server 26% of players are bronze. (before the smart-alec comments start please note this is roughly true for all the servers).
All the other leagues are significantly underrepresented (compared to the supposed 20-20-20-20% slit for plat-bronze).
So you might be able to infer a few things from this:
1) players are overall better and it is now harder to increase mmr to the artificial benchmarks blizzard set.
2) bronze is full of smurfs from higher leagues
3) overall, higher level players are dropping off faster than lower level players
I prefer to think its a combination of 1 and 2, which is why I think it does tend to be harder to get out of bronze.
Second, as for those of us who play regularly, but can't quite dedicate the time to play enough to cement skills, I think what I've learned is this game depends on lots of little things that add up to improved play. I have 750+ games, of which about 200 are 1v1 (since season 1).
I play a lot of team games with friends, and only play 1v1 when they aren't available. What I've found is that the team games have a different dynamic that lead me to get lazy with the 1v1 skills. When I go bak to 1v1 after taking a week or more off, I generally get clobbered until I can get those skills back up to speed.
So, maybe I just suck. My apm hardly ever gets over 50. But I have just learned that I don't have time to play both team and 1v1 games, and would rathe play with friends. Maybe someday I'll get out of silver 1v1, but right now I'm looking forward to season 7 silver...
On April 01 2012 06:20 ttfdrevil wrote: All the other leagues are significantly underrepresented (compared to the supposed 20-20-20-20% slit for plat-bronze).
So you might be able to infer a few things from this:
1) players are overall better and it is now harder to increase mmr to the artificial benchmarks blizzard set.
2) bronze is full of smurfs from higher leagues
3) overall, higher level players are dropping off faster than lower level players
Those statistics show none of these things. Here's what's really going on.
The MMR system is zero sum, meaning that when a player drops in MMR, his opponent increases in MMR by the same amount. (Note that this is NOT the same as saying that each player gets the same number of displayed points after the match, because the system awards extra points to players whose point scores are below where they should be based on MMR, and vice versa.)
This means that active players push each other's rankings up and down until their MMRs are correlated with their likelihood of winning a particular matchup.
What makes bronze different is that the activity of bronze players is (on average) a lot less than the other leagues. An inactive player who places into bronze in their placements and stops playing isn't really participating in the MMR distribution process that would push more active bronze players into higher leagues by giving them wins. So, you end up with an excess in bronze league, essentially representing the players who aren't playing enough to establish upward pressure on the more active bronze players who might otherwise be silver.
Note that Blizzard's MMR boundaries aren't "artificial," because as long as the shape of the MMR distribution stays the same, those boundaries should correspond to the same percentiles. The only reason to tweak the boundaries are if the shape of the MMR distribution changes, and that the higher leagues are roughly equal in size suggests that it's not changing that fast.
Edit: So in response to each point, (1) MMR doesn't say anything about the quality of play, only likelihood of winning. (2) Someone who tanks their rating to wind up in bronze ends up raising other people's MMR by the same amount, yielding promotions elsewhere, so smurfs can't explain an excess of people in bronze. (3) It's precisely because bronze players place and drop out that there are an excess of them. If bronze players were more active across the board, the percentage would be very close to 20% and the higher leagues would have more people.
I was a mid diamond player and i downed my mmr to play in lower league, i have a 60% win ratio by walling my main with 2 nexus, building 20 photon canon and then doing a 4 gate....
On April 01 2012 06:40 minilance wrote: I was a mid diamond player and i downed my mmr to play in lower league, i have a 60% win ratio by walling my main with 2 nexus, building 20 photon canon and then doing a 4 gate....
Hard to imagine you'd get very far with a 4-gate at 10 minutes or later in gold or plat, but I'll take your word for it.
All the leagues have progressed. Some of my friends are in plat and below and they are way better than I was when I was in those league. Everyone is just getting better at the game, which is a good thing.
On April 01 2012 06:40 minilance wrote: people in plat and under are still shit,
I was a mid diamond player and i downed my mmr to play in lower league, i have a 60% win ratio by walling my main with 2 nexus, building 20 photon canon and then doing a 4 gate....
Mmmm... so 6/10 Platinum players lose to your 3950 mineral delayed 4-gate? I was going to call bullshit on this but then when I saw you had reached the lofty ranks of mid-diamond I realised there was no need to doubt such an obvious master of the game.
I'm not sure I fully agree with you. I think my point is that the distribution has changed, but blizzard has opted not to Adjust the bars.
Also, i'm not sure mmr is a zero sum game when it is manipulated by people with second accounts or by first account smurfs. At minimum it must impact mmr "confidence" for real bronze players. Also, do we know that mmr point trades are always even like for displayed points. I don't know. Need to go back and read excalibur's stuff I guess.
Anyway, my point isn,t that bronze players currently make up a disproportionately large % of the player base. There are roughly 30% more bronze level players than there should be.
That may be an indication that the league itself is more challenging.
On April 01 2012 07:09 ttfdrevil wrote: I'm not sure I fully agree with you. I think my point is that the distribution has changed, but blizzard has opted not to Adjust the bars.
Unfortunately, it sounds from your comments like you didn't understand what I wrote. Player activity serves to spread players evenly through the leagues. (MMR itself may not end up spread evenly, but it's correlated to percentile among active players, so the MMR boundaries are fixed at uniform 20-percentile intervals.)
A player who places and then doesn't play actively has no impact on the MMR system at all. The five placement matches yield an estimate of that player's MMR, and the player's dropped somewhere on the MMR spectrum, but in a way that doesn't move any other players around. Meanwhile, the active players' wins and losses push each other around in such a way as to distribute them consistently with the MMR boundaries.
Thus, an excess of inactive players placing into bronze and ceasing to play further is all it takes for that league to be larger.
Think about what happens when a player places into bronze: they lose five placement games and get a window indicating that they're in the lowest league. A player who's ambivalent about multiplayer SC2 would be far more likely to stop at that point than if they won one of their games and placed into silver. This mechanism alone would account for more people being in that position in bronze league. Also, of course, bronze players are probably less likely to take the game seriously anyway.
Also, i'm not sure mmr is a zero sum game when it is manipulated by people with second accounts or by first account smurfs. At minimum it must impact mmr "confidence" for real bronze players.
A player playing on a second account is indistinguishable from a second human being at the same skill level. A player who deliberately quits a game to lower their MMR is indistinguishable from a player who lost that game fairly, and for the opponent, it's indistinguishable from a win. Manipulation doesn't affect how the MMR system works, other than that smurfs have a higher chance of winning than the system estimates on those occasions when that player decides to play a game out.
Remember, MMR doesn't have anything to do with actual skill, it only reflects wins and losses, so if a large number of people around you are throwing games, you'll have a higher MMR as a result. In an extreme hypothetical case, if you had 20% of the active players throwing EVERY game, any player who tried to play the game at all would wind up in silver.
Also, do we know that mmr point trades are always even like for displayed points. I don't know. Need to go back and read excalibur's stuff I guess.
Displayed points are not always even between the winner and loser, but MMR movement probably is. The reason is that the difference between two players' MMR numbers maps directly to their likelihood of a win. Two matched players (on average, across many matches) are going to have the same MMR. A win or loss provides additional information about the likelihood of one of those two players beating the other one, but it doesn't provide distinguishable, individualized information about one player's skill level vs. their opponent's. After a game where the two players start out at the same MMR, the players need to be moved apart by some amount to reflect that likelihood of a win or loss, but the information simply isn't there to move one player farther than the other one.
Incidentally, that MMR is zero sum is strongly supported by the fact that the league boundaries' MMRs are relatively stable, and that when they make changes, people notice. If MMR were not zero sum, there would be a trend toward inflation or deflation.
EDIT: Here's another way to think about the first reason that MMR is zero sum: Two players with the same MMR each have a 50% chance of a win, because that's what equal MMR means. If MMR were not zero sum, a series of losses followed by an equal number of wins would not always get those two players back to the same MMR, because whatever your scheme for assigning extra points to one player but not taking them from the other, it would cause a round trip not to work. So, two players with equal MMR, after playing a large number of games where they went exactly 50/50 vs. each other, would wind up with different MMRs despite the 50% win likelihood predicted by their starting equal MMRs being confirmed perfectly. That's a nonsensical result -- you start out predicting a 50/50 win loss split, and when that happens exactly as predicted, your MMRs move apart to favor one player or the other? That would make no sense.
Anyway, my point isn,t that bronze players currently make up a disproportionately large % of the player base. There are roughly 30% more bronze level players than there should be.
That may be an indication that the league itself is more challenging.
All it indicates is that a large number of bronze players don't play enough after their placements to move other players' MMRs upward with their losses.
You are right that the leagues are split based on active population. But blizzard estimates the splits and sets a fixed mmr for promotion. The last time blizzard changed those fixed boundaries they made an announcement. I believe it was season 4 and immediately after they adjusted those boundaries I was promoted to silver.
I do not believe that they have adjusted them since. Also Excalibur notes that even though the mmr ranking requires to promote is fixed, the ability of a player to get to that level will depend on the skill of the player population (my original point).
Also, as the leagues are only 2 months long now, I would find it surprising that the drop off rate for bronze players (from active status) is roughly 30% higher than the other leagues (hence making the league distribution look skewed due to inactivity). It could be, I don't know.
So I still hold that it could also be a function of it being more challenging to reach the mmr breakpoint set by blizzard. But I don't discount that inactivity could also be the cause.
On April 01 2012 08:55 ttfdrevil wrote: So I still hold that it could also be a function of it being more challenging to reach the mmr breakpoint set by blizzard.
On the question of inactivity:
First, the distribution across the leagues isn't a sharp knee at bronze. Currently, according to sc2ranks.com, the percentage of tracked North America players per league, this season, is:
The Season 1 data illustrates what the numbers look like when tons of new players are placing and quitting. I'd say that today's numbers look a lot more like what you'd expect if there are no new players and the leagues are mostly sorted by how much players practice. I don't see some enormous knee around Bronze that suggests much of anything in today's data.
Now, there were a couple of major ladder boundary changes in there that shifted bronze through platinum upward in league a bunch. Still, it's pretty obvious from the distributions that in Season 1, a lot of people tried multiplayer, said "wow, this is hard," and quit. Today, most people are hanging in there to some extent, but diamond and up play a lot more than the other leagues.
I looked a little more at their data - just checked the ratio of players w/ zero points to the total population. Bronze to plat were all at about 20%. With bronze having the lowest number of zero points players - 19% and platinum having the highest - 22%.
Considering both games (wins) and average (not median) points per player are also about comparable, I don't see any sign that bronze players are more inactive than higher leagues (at least through plat. If anything it appears bronze may be slightly more active. So again... Implies that inactivity may not be the cause. Difficulty reaching the mmr limit appears more likely (due to increase in difficulty).
On April 01 2012 18:08 ttfdrevil wrote: again... Implies that inactivity may not be the cause. Difficulty reaching the mmr limit appears more likely (due to increase in difficulty).
Cause of what? I posted those numbers specifically to point out that bronze is currently not that much larger than silver. I'm not sure 6% is a meaningful difference here, since those MMR boundaries are manually adjusted. It certainly does not suggest that it's any harder to get out of bronze than it was -- if anything, it's easier than ever before because fewer people are staying there.
On April 01 2012 06:40 minilance wrote: people in plat and under are still shit,
I was a mid diamond player and i downed my mmr to play in lower league, i have a 60% win ratio by walling my main with 2 nexus, building 20 photon canon and then doing a 4 gate....
In which league? I met a guy in silver who does something similar. He plays random, and anytime he spawns as Protoss or Zerg he just makes a fuckton of cannons/spines at his ramp. Not sure what happens afterwards since I'm only viewing them from the build order overview, but he still manages to win some games with it somehow... My theory is their opponents do their standard one base push, suicide it onto the static d and then panic and lose the game.
On April 01 2012 18:08 ttfdrevil wrote: again... Implies that inactivity may not be the cause. Difficulty reaching the mmr limit appears more likely (due to increase in difficulty).
Cause of what? I posted those numbers specifically to point out that bronze is currently not that much larger than silver. I'm not sure 6% is a meaningful difference here, since those MMR boundaries are manually adjusted. It certainly does not suggest that it's any harder to get out of bronze than it was -- if anything, it's easier than ever before because fewer people are staying there.
Its probably harder for a new player to get out of bronze, since all the leagues above it seem to have gotten better. If we're debating how hard it is to get out of bronze, its really the shift in silver level play we should be looking at.
I played a guy who was in diamond in S1 and S2 tonight and hadn't played in 52 weeks. He had placed into platinum and was well on his way past low gold when I beat him. Out of practice? Sure, maybe, but that he couldn't pick it up and maintain platinum tells me something about how things have changed.
Not bronze but silver. I don't consider myself a hardcore player, but watching years of Day9, Brood War Pro League and Gom Classic Tourneys, Cholera/etc casts gives me enough general knowledge to get above that first tier of beginners. If I played more than 5 games a week, I'd probably be gold or higher.
Your pretty much a bronze leaguer if you have zero sense of the game. You might think you do, but you don't. I have friends that play 2-5 hours a day and are still rank 1 bronze league.
Essentially, they don't play to win. Instead they play to see their 200/200 void ray army kill the enemy or die trying.
The difference in 'macro' between a bronze player than the rest of the leagues is that bronze players tend to 'zone out' to fights and like to think for like 10 seconds on 'where should i place this gateway'
On April 02 2012 14:21 Zariel wrote: Your pretty much a bronze leaguer if you have zero sense of the game. You might think you do, but you don't. I have friends that play 2-5 hours a day and are still rank 1 bronze league.
Essentially, they don't play to win. Instead they play to see their 200/200 void ray army kill the enemy or die trying.
The difference in 'macro' between a bronze player than the rest of the leagues is that bronze players tend to 'zone out' to fights and like to think for like 10 seconds on 'where should i place this gateway'
I heard that you are pretty much a bronze leaguer if you are in bronze league.
Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization. I was in bronze not too long ago, and I had far more than zero sense of the game. I was total shit at applying the so-called knowledge I had, but I knew BOs and all that. For the most part I was just stubborn, and got distracted by shit like vespene geysers and my marauders falling apart to DTs.
On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote: Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization.
It's all a matter of degree. My twelve year old brother is pretty advanced in math for his age and reads a lot about the sciences. I have a degree in physics. I could say that he has "zero understanding of physics" but the truth is that he does have a pretty good intuition for some simple topics, he just doesn't understand how professionals in the field actually do what they do. I can explain things to him, and he'll get the idea pretty well, but there's no way that he could work through homework problems that a freshman in college could handle.
If Starcraft 2 were physics, low bronze would be an elementary school understanding, high bronze through plat would be a high school level, and diamond and up would be college and up.
I guess that analogy is pretty useless, but it feels about right and I'm happy with it.
Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
On March 29 2012 18:35 olmaster wrote:I got demoted out of silver teamgames due to loosing to many games with sloppy teammates.
This is a fallacy. Let's say you're playing 3v3 and are a good player. This means your team only has 2 chances to get bad players on it because you will always be taking up a spot. The enemy team, however, has 3 chances for bad players. If you were really a good player, you would, over time, win more than you would lose and rise to your appropriate MMR whereupon you would level out at a 50% W/L rate, assuming you improve at a rate equal to your opponents.
I know this. In 3vs 3 I'm still silver and winning. But also the fact I'm playing random, I have some lesser games. Most of the last games before I got demoted I lost but was still in top 3 and my teammates at the bottom. I also looked at all players in the division I ended up in, thay all got demoted at the same time, about the same timestamp. maybe this has to do with the achievementsservice and it updates all at once, but found it strange. Must be a lot of new silvers now I thought. So how does that work?
(...)But all of this stuff keeps me in higher bronze/silver. I've had some training from a Diamond player for a while, where I had the better tactics but he was much faster using hotkeys, so after a while he said I was to slow and had to work on my hotkeys. I play Random so I had to manage this for all races. I have ordered a new keyboard and mouse, my teammate told me to do so cause this can help to improve your epm and hotkeying. So I hope this will help. (...)
A new mouse and keyboard don't make you a better player (unless you were using a notebook keyboard and a touchpad or trackball before). I know, pros use mechanical keyboards and stuff and for them it really makes a difference but for everyone below masters, it won't change anything at all. Just use what you are comfortable with.
A good way to force yourself to use hotkeys is to just hide the controls in the bottom right, either by placing an item before it or putting one of those yellow papers on it. That way you prevent the habit of clicking those buttons instead of pressing the correct key. Of course it can cause problems if you need to research something and don't remember the hotkey... but that will make you remember the hotkey better for next time
Other than that, keep having fun
A new mouse and keyboard don't make you a better player...in this case you don't wanna know what stuff I'm using :-), about any keyboard mouse is an improvement. I've tried some other ones at my friends place and I notice I have less f*ckups due to the keys that work much smoother and faster. Also I use a performance mouse whcich was suppost to be a better gaming mouse, but after a test is was to slow and after a while it's to heavy. So I got me a normal wired mouse and it actually works better now. I can find my keys, it's just the speed, not used to typing fast. thx for the heads up.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote: Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization.
It's all a matter of degree. My twelve year old brother is pretty advanced in math for his age and reads a lot about the sciences. I have a degree in physics. I could say that he has "zero understanding of physics" but the truth is that he does have a pretty good intuition for some simple topics, he just doesn't understand how professionals in the field actually do what they do. I can explain things to him, and he'll get the idea pretty well, but there's no way that he could work through homework problems that a freshman in college could handle.
If Starcraft 2 were physics, low bronze would be an elementary school understanding, high bronze through plat would be a high school level, and diamond and up would be college and up.
I guess that analogy is pretty useless, but it feels about right and I'm happy with it.
Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
Other than this it takes you way to long to get from Bottom bronze to High silver just because most of the players are in there and are about the same level.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections.
I recommend some cocaine.
You could be right as he's living at his mother. Cocaine? For who? me or my boy??
People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically!
I was gold protoss and changed into T (because there was so few) and started to lose, so I got demoted and then went all the way back to the bottom of bronze to try to learn T from zero. I have now played enough to be at the bronze-silver border. this is what I experienced (not to imply any generalizations):
Low-mid bronze, the concept that SC is about optimization is entirely lacking. A player does 2rax opening but then makes 5 depots in advance, and then at 6:00 starts to produce MM. Production is continuous, but stops when army moves out. There's no sense of optimal BO. Worker production is actually quite decent. Quite many players try to drop or make DTs or things like that, but it isn't working. Some random cheese, but badly done. 1-base play is the norm. I didn't encounter any mass air protoss, which was common back then, and in fact no cannon rush came along. APM is between 10-25.
I have about 10% of smurfs and people who insta-gg'd. These are people who have high APM, they do crazy stuff and still win.
high-bronze, low silver, a dramatic change occurs here. It seems, most players have now learned to do optimal cheese. So you got 6pool, zealot rush, 4gate, proxy rax, proxy bunkers, baneling bust, whatever, one after another. I was first losing because the change was so dramatic, it took time to adjust to the new reality. But these builds are "optimal" in a sense you can see that it has been planned out in advance. Some high silver players have played many games, can be like 2000 (and have always been in bronze-silver). These players play for win, not for just fooling around, and they have discovered at least one efficient way to achieve that. If this were my first time in bronze I would probably do 3rax in every game. I think it isn't necessary easy to get out of this phase because if you counter cheese with cheese, its coinflip, and if you try to defend and go for macro game, you really need to scout and cope with so many different cheese strats.
It is often said that you get into higher leagues by better macro. Looking my production graphs, I massively outproduce my opponents but still manage lose, mainly due to cheese and because I sometimes a-move my army into banelings or toss deathballs which isn't working for T, and because I haven't really learned to control T efficiently in engagements.
Actually, the 'macro better' theory predicts that the outcome of the game is predicted by supply differential or by spending differential. I will perhaps check this from my games but I have a feeling that it isn't so when I play T, amount of spending/supply/workers correlates only weakly with winning. But maybe I'm wrong.
If I play customs against diamond or plat players, what I see is that these players generally know what's the proper response to what I am doing, so they just do that and win fast. This is something I don't see in bronze-silver-gold. But if it goes for macro game, my macro is not super inferior.
On April 03 2012 00:27 NexUmbra wrote: People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically!
True, but this mindset is toxic to your progress in the long run. I tried to keep a mindset like this, and one day I realized that I had basically quit because when I won, I thought "Wow, that guy REAALLY sucked, I'm just glad I didn't suck as much.". When I lost I just thought "Wow, I suck enough to lose to a really sucky player". This seems like an obviously bad way to go about one's life. Eventually I changed my thought-processes to be based on improvement, so for a win I would think "Alright, I learned how to do something, which enabled me to defeat my opponent". For losses, "Oh, I haven't yet figured out how to deal with something, I should watch the replay to find out how to do that something." This made playing much more fun and is just as good for improvement. So to finally address your post, I think it would be better to say that even low-masters players have not improved as much as they would like to, therefore you should recognize this and you will learn more quickly.
On April 03 2012 00:27 NexUmbra wrote: People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically!
True, but this mindset is toxic to your progress in the long run. I tried to keep a mindset like this, and one day I realized that I had basically quit because when I won, I thought "Wow, that guy REAALLY sucked, I'm just glad I didn't suck as much.". When I lost I just thought "Wow, I suck enough to lose to a really sucky player". This seems like an obviously bad way to go about one's life. Eventually I changed my thought-processes to be based on improvement, so for a win I would think "Alright, I learned how to do something, which enabled me to defeat my opponent". For losses, "Oh, I haven't yet figured out how to deal with something, I should watch the replay to find out how to do that something." This made playing much more fun and is just as good for improvement. So to finally address your post, I think it would be better to say that even low-masters players have not improved as much as they would like to, therefore you should recognize this and you will learn more quickly.
This. In any skill or art for you are trying to learn, positive attitude will result in faster improvement.
On April 03 2012 00:27 NexUmbra wrote: People who are in low masters are still awful players, I think that the sooner people realize that they are bad then they will start to improve dramatically!
True, but this mindset is toxic to your progress in the long run. I tried to keep a mindset like this, and one day I realized that I had basically quit because when I won, I thought "Wow, that guy REAALLY sucked, I'm just glad I didn't suck as much.". When I lost I just thought "Wow, I suck enough to lose to a really sucky player". This seems like an obviously bad way to go about one's life. Eventually I changed my thought-processes to be based on improvement, so for a win I would think "Alright, I learned how to do something, which enabled me to defeat my opponent". For losses, "Oh, I haven't yet figured out how to deal with something, I should watch the replay to find out how to do that something." This made playing much more fun and is just as good for improvement. So to finally address your post, I think it would be better to say that even low-masters players have not improved as much as they would like to, therefore you should recognize this and you will learn more quickly.
This. In any skill or art for you are trying to learn, positive attitude will result in faster improvement.
Well I do not have the attitude that you are describing, after every game I try to learn in some way from it. I am not talking about thinking IM SO BAD OMG but more so opposing the fact that their are bronze players that are saying "Well bronze is actually pretty good!" in order to say that they are not that bad. However I believe that once you get your head out of your own arse and that realise that you are quite bad then you will see improvement.
I used to have this mindset that I was good and that bronze was not 'that bad' but I basically realised that everyone who is not a progamer is basically horrific at the game and that I was never going to improve. After doing this I got from Bronze > Silver and now am consistently facing Gold league players!
I didn't play SC2 for over a year and a half (quit in september of 2010, played again March 2012) and I was able to very easily easily place into platinum.
there has to be something fundamentally wrong with your gameplay or the matchmaking system if I can still walk over people after that much skill decay and you are stuck in bronze after 2 years.
I see this in other games. People play a long time and just don't get very good. My suggestion is to find a friend in a higher league, play against them and ask them to look at some replays for you.
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections.
I recommend some cocaine.
You could be right as he's living at his mother. Cocaine? For who? me or my boy??
On March 29 2012 21:45 onzfeat wrote: just purchased sc2, placement match + 3 game, gold rank 27. watching tournaments helps me lot
I wonder how many higher level Bronze players would place siliver or gold if they started with fresh accounts?
I'm curious also. My son played a lot under my account, even got me in Gold 4vs4. When I bought him a copy he was still a n00b but with some skills from SCBW. He's 12 now and playes Diamond :-( while I'm stuck around midsilver...
Clearly this is a case of Oedipal Complex manifesting in a more modern form. He's intending to supplant you to gain the entirety of his mother's affections.
I recommend some cocaine.
You could be right as he's living at his mother. Cocaine? For who? me or my boy??
On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote: Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization.
Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
I think this is a big deal. I often rewatch my own games and wonder wtf I was doing with some of the decisions I make in-game. Its like I can't do all the mechanical stuff AND think about basic strategy at the same time. And its probably one of the hardest skills to learn/teach, if it can be taught at all. The best I can do is keep things as simple as possible IE one build per matchup, and just research as many responses as possible.
On April 02 2012 14:47 CyDe wrote: Anyway, to say that people in Bronze league have zero sense of the game is a gross exaggeration and generalization.
It's all a matter of degree. My twelve year old brother is pretty advanced in math for his age and reads a lot about the sciences. I have a degree in physics. I could say that he has "zero understanding of physics" but the truth is that he does have a pretty good intuition for some simple topics, he just doesn't understand how professionals in the field actually do what they do. I can explain things to him, and he'll get the idea pretty well, but there's no way that he could work through homework problems that a freshman in college could handle.
If Starcraft 2 were physics, low bronze would be an elementary school understanding, high bronze through plat would be a high school level, and diamond and up would be college and up.
I guess that analogy is pretty useless, but it feels about right and I'm happy with it.
Edit: One point of that analogy is to say that there's understanding what people explain to you, and there's having the depth and skill to synthesize it into a new solution on the fly. I think a lot of bronze league players who say that they "understand the game" are speaking of the former, while playing at a high level requires the latter.
I know exactly what you mean.
So many players I've tried teaching say, "I get it." But, when I ask them to explain what I just said back to me, they've clearly missed the point. It shows in their play as well.
On April 03 2012 01:08 aggu wrote: I was gold protoss and changed into T (because there was so few) and started to lose, so I got demoted and then went all the way back to the bottom of bronze to try to learn T from zero. I have now played enough to be at the bronze-silver border. this is what I experienced (not to imply any generalizations):
Low-mid bronze, the concept that SC is about optimization is entirely lacking. A player does 2rax opening but then makes 5 depots in advance, and then at 6:00 starts to produce MM. Production is continuous, but stops when army moves out. There's no sense of optimal BO. Worker production is actually quite decent. Quite many players try to drop or make DTs or things like that, but it isn't working. Some random cheese, but badly done. 1-base play is the norm. I didn't encounter any mass air protoss, which was common back then, and in fact no cannon rush came along. APM is between 10-25.
I have about 10% of smurfs and people who insta-gg'd. These are people who have high APM, they do crazy stuff and still win.
high-bronze, low silver, a dramatic change occurs here. It seems, most players have now learned to do optimal cheese. So you got 6pool, zealot rush, 4gate, proxy rax, proxy bunkers, baneling bust, whatever, one after another. I was first losing because the change was so dramatic, it took time to adjust to the new reality. But these builds are "optimal" in a sense you can see that it has been planned out in advance. Some high silver players have played many games, can be like 2000 (and have always been in bronze-silver). These players play for win, not for just fooling around, and they have discovered at least one efficient way to achieve that. If this were my first time in bronze I would probably do 3rax in every game. I think it isn't necessary easy to get out of this phase because if you counter cheese with cheese, its coinflip, and if you try to defend and go for macro game, you really need to scout and cope with so many different cheese strats.
It is often said that you get into higher leagues by better macro. Looking my production graphs, I massively outproduce my opponents but still manage lose, mainly due to cheese and because I sometimes a-move my army into banelings or toss deathballs which isn't working for T, and because I haven't really learned to control T efficiently in engagements.
Actually, the 'macro better' theory predicts that the outcome of the game is predicted by supply differential or by spending differential. I will perhaps check this from my games but I have a feeling that it isn't so when I play T, amount of spending/supply/workers correlates only weakly with winning. But maybe I'm wrong.
If I play customs against diamond or plat players, what I see is that these players generally know what's the proper response to what I am doing, so they just do that and win fast. This is something I don't see in bronze-silver-gold. But if it goes for macro game, my macro is not super inferior.
The advice "macro better" assumes that you survive cheese, which is why tactics such as 3rax are recommended, pretty much no scouting is needed and you should be safe anyway, and the advantage of having better macro can kick in. The first 5 minutes of the game, amazing macro and horrible macro is still too close to win the game, it's later on when the opponent simply can't keep up and starts making mistakes that your advantage kicks in. When I played terran in high silver on a smurf, I noticed that going for an early allin simply wasn't effective enough, many silver players like to play cheesy or 1basey, so you can't finish them that easily all the time by simply allining, your supply advantage is too small. Instead, macroing hard off barracks while spending spare minerals into bases made it easy, since they couldn't break a defense of M&M, and once I had 2-3 bases and a ton of rax, I could just flood units until they died since they couldn't keep up even if they also took 3 bases, once you killed their army, your next attack would be more or less uncontested.
As for surviving cheesy play as terran: 6pool is stopped by the wall going up fast enough. cannon rush is easily scouted by a worker scout, same with mass-rax and proxy plays. 4 gate, DT etc is easily scouted with scan, and shouldn't matter anyway if your macro is good since you should assume a bronze 4gater will be delayed (since if he did a stellar 4gate, that should be enough to get him out of bronze). roach/ling allins simply aren't good enough against a strong bio ball.
If a bronze player goes for something harassy like cloaked banshees or phoenixes, you can generally just a-move into their base, they are spending all of their APM on their harass and probably don't have any follow up planned, if you can stay alive and deny them getting way ahead, they will lose the longer the game goes on.
I dont think there's characteristics as to list what "bronze" player is. As a mid-high diamond player, I do analyze a few of my friends bronze replays to give him pointers, and its nothing that they specfically do that makes them deficient in their play but a combination of small things which really add up.
Some games I'll have guys who's really on top of their worker production, but fails to make units for a while. If they make a lot of units, they'll just not make workers, completely disregard keyupgrades (seige mode, ling speed, warpgate upgrade)...Sometimes, they'll do everything well, they keep up worker production, make units, get their key upgrades, push out and then start panicking and do absolutely nothing while that attack is in play...Some people dont expand at all..and persist on one base 15 minutes into the game...It's just a combination of things...
I highly disagree to a post said earlier on that mid-gold has grasped the concept of 2 base play, plat has 3 base played, and diaonds are 3 bases while being able to play a good long macro game. and I can attest to this becasue I'm a player who wins ladder games off cheese and have has a severe defieicny to win games that exceeds 3 bases unless the opponent randomly decides to suicide to me. I think the difference inbetween the levels in terms of cheesy pay is for lower levels, they flat out cannot execute it efficiently using the available resources (ie...5 supply depots before making a marine). For higher-low levels. they'll execute it more efficiently however, they'll be deficient in the fact that they make it blantantly obvious (ie make tons of zerglings for the entire world to see 6 minutes in) , expose it to proper scouting. Low high levels (plat/diamond), are extremely efficient, denies scouting, and knows the variables on whether to execute it or not (for example...you wouldnt ever want to try to all-in 2baneling bust a terran anticipating it and with seige tanks and able to transition from it..while high levels (masters), cheesys are deceptive/tricky/micro intensive and there able to transition to it on the off chance there's a high chance of it not working.
The advice "macro better" assumes that you survive cheese, which is why tactics such as 3rax are recommended, pretty much no scouting is needed and you should be safe anyway, and the advantage of having better macro can kick in.
Actually 3rax has a timing window where the 2 reactors are being added where it can get stomped pretty hard by stuff like a 3rax all-in, proxy 2rax, early 4gate, bane bust, etc.
On April 03 2012 05:56 danl9rm wrote: I have the strongest urge to get demoted to bronze and just check the place out for myself.
Aside from the fact that doing so is a violation of the rules, it's probably not worth the hassle anyway. You wouldn't come away feeling like you'd had a satisfying learning experience doing so.
On April 03 2012 05:56 danl9rm wrote: I have the strongest urge to get demoted to bronze and just check the place out for myself.
Aside from the fact that doing so is a violation of the rules, it's probably not worth the hassle anyway. You wouldn't come away feeling like you'd had a satisfying learning experience doing so.
From the way bronzies talk, I feel like half the players I meet in bronze will be master smurfs.
On April 03 2012 07:33 PeanutsNJam wrote: From the way bronzies talk, I feel like half the players I meet in bronze will be master smurfs.
My suspicion is that a bronze player sees a HUGE difference between better and worse bronze players, while to someone from a higher league, they'd all seem the same.
Tbh my opinion is if you are that bad at the game (and taking it seriously) then you should just stop playing it all together, spend time doing something you are better at, instead of giving yourself a lot of frustration due to losses. Everybody got something they are absolutely terrible at but spending a lot of time doing excatly that is incredibly stupid So if you can not get out of bronze despite actually playing the game each day then i dont think this game is for you.
On April 03 2012 08:00 blackwolf wrote: Tbh my opinion is if you are that bad at the game (and taking it seriously) then you should just stop playing it all together, spend time doing something you are better at, instead of giving yourself a lot of frustration due to losses. Everybody got something they are absolutely terrible at but spending a lot of time doing excatly that is incredibly stupid So if you can not get out of bronze despite actually playing the game each day then i dont think this game is for you.
If people are having fun, then it isn't a problem.
I'd say very few people are "forever bronze" in the sense that they are making a consistent effort to improve their play and still can't get out of bronze after several months. For many people however, this game isn't something that's taken very seriously. You might have people who have never played RTS before, who play 2 games a week and spend more time watching streams. Who play a handful of team games here and there for fun. I don't think they should be looked down upon just because they're shit at this game. They've just got different priorities.
Personally I picked up SC2 with very little RTS experience. I placed into bronze and set about learning wtf to do. It was a slow process but I managed to climb into silver, gold then sat in plat for ages. Now I'm clawing at the bottom of diamond. I can look back at bronze league and go "god I was so awful", but the fact is I just didn't know any better. How do I stop this, how do I react to that, what's a good build order for PvT? Making units while I move my attack out? Timing attacks? Wtf is all this shit.
On April 03 2012 08:00 blackwolf wrote: Tbh my opinion is if you are that bad at the game (and taking it seriously) then you should just stop playing it all together, spend time doing something you are better at, instead of giving yourself a lot of frustration due to losses.
Even most people in bronze league win half their games.
On April 03 2012 07:33 PeanutsNJam wrote: From the way bronzies talk, I feel like half the players I meet in bronze will be master smurfs.
My suspicion is that a bronze player sees a HUGE difference between better and worse bronze players, while to someone from a higher league, they'd all seem the same.
I did meet a self- admitted smurf, if you tell me how I'll try to post the replay.
But I will say I agree with you as I have also been called a smurf lol "stupid pro go back to ur league" post a game where I mistakenly made something like 30-40 zealots when I wanted stalker & colossus so I a-moved him, prolly thought all those zealots were built on purpose to say "I can beat you with just zealots!" rather than because mr. ALaKaSLaM can't macro period.
For now I don't know how to share replays, someone wanna pm me? I probably won't see inthread replies. Btw Lysenko thank you for your contributions here. Much better than mine in general!
On April 03 2012 01:08 aggu wrote: I was gold protoss and changed into T (because there was so few) and started to lose, so I got demoted and then went all the way back to the bottom of bronze to try to learn T from zero. I have now played enough to be at the bronze-silver border. this is what I experienced (not to imply any generalizations):
Low-mid bronze, the concept that SC is about optimization is entirely lacking. A player does 2rax opening but then makes 5 depots in advance, and then at 6:00 starts to produce MM. Production is continuous, but stops when army moves out. There's no sense of optimal BO. Worker production is actually quite decent. Quite many players try to drop or make DTs or things like that, but it isn't working. Some random cheese, but badly done. 1-base play is the norm. I didn't encounter any mass air protoss, which was common back then, and in fact no cannon rush came along. APM is between 10-25.
I have about 10% of smurfs and people who insta-gg'd. These are people who have high APM, they do crazy stuff and still win.
high-bronze, low silver, a dramatic change occurs here. It seems, most players have now learned to do optimal cheese. So you got 6pool, zealot rush, 4gate, proxy rax, proxy bunkers, baneling bust, whatever, one after another. I was first losing because the change was so dramatic, it took time to adjust to the new reality. But these builds are "optimal" in a sense you can see that it has been planned out in advance. Some high silver players have played many games, can be like 2000 (and have always been in bronze-silver). These players play for win, not for just fooling around, and they have discovered at least one efficient way to achieve that. If this were my first time in bronze I would probably do 3rax in every game. I think it isn't necessary easy to get out of this phase because if you counter cheese with cheese, its coinflip, and if you try to defend and go for macro game, you really need to scout and cope with so many different cheese strats.
It is often said that you get into higher leagues by better macro. Looking my production graphs, I massively outproduce my opponents but still manage lose, mainly due to cheese and because I sometimes a-move my army into banelings or toss deathballs which isn't working for T, and because I haven't really learned to control T efficiently in engagements.
Actually, the 'macro better' theory predicts that the outcome of the game is predicted by supply differential or by spending differential. I will perhaps check this from my games but I have a feeling that it isn't so when I play T, amount of spending/supply/workers correlates only weakly with winning. But maybe I'm wrong.
If I play customs against diamond or plat players, what I see is that these players generally know what's the proper response to what I am doing, so they just do that and win fast. This is something I don't see in bronze-silver-gold. But if it goes for macro game, my macro is not super inferior.
You see, I disagree here with your statement about the 'macro better' theory. I am a mid-diamond protoss, and when I got a second account to play zerg on, I had to go through the process of playing my placement matches. I decided to quit them to experience the way bronze actually is after reading Gheed's blogs. (Note that I started my starcraft career in bronze but through hard work clawed my way out through practice. However, when I was in bronze I thought that I was better than I actually was, a concept that was very wrong for reasons I'll elaborate on later, and that I deserved gold at least, which means that my perception of bronze was flawed, different from the point of view of a higher level player.)
Anyway, I tanked to bronze and on my way up I experienced a variety of playstyles, from cheese to straight up macro. Whenever I played a macro vs macro game, I won without any problems, as would be expected from someone with diamond mechanics playing someone in bronze. I wanted to test the theory of getting high up by only macro by not scouting the opponent at all except for at 9 supply to ensure I wasn't being 6pooled, proxy 2gated, or 2raxed. But whenever I experienced any hyper-aggressive mid-game allins, at least what I think were mid-game allins, they were so badly executed most of the time that despite my lack of scouting I would still hold them off.
My knowledge of zerg was rather limited so I didn't know any build orders and had no grasp of advanced zerg mechanics, so I really only relied on macro and knowledge of what zerg unit counters what. Through this method of just playing macro, I got to low platinum. It was at this point that I hit a wall with my mechanics and actually had to start learning build orders to be competitive. Now I'm high plat, but that's not really relevant anymore.
Point is, macro really is key. I think your problem is as you said, if you just a-move marines into collossus and banelings, you can have GM macro and still lose. At this point, you may be asking 'But doesn't this just prove that you can't just macro to win?'. As I mentioned above, GM macro won't save your marines from speed banelings. You also need to know what unit to macro given the situation. Mix in a few tanks with those marines, and even if you don't micro those marines against a ling/bling comp you will still have enough at home to hold off a counter. Also, no offense intended, but gold mechanics when transferred to a new race you don't have experience with won't give you all that much of an advantage over low silver players, since they still need a lot of work.
On April 03 2012 08:53 PolskaGora wrote: Anyway, I tanked to bronze and on my way up I experienced a variety of playstyles, from cheese to straight up macro. Whenever I played a macro vs macro game, I won without any problems, as would be expected from someone with diamond mechanics playing someone in bronze. I wanted to test the theory of getting high up by only macro by not scouting the opponent at all except for at 9 supply to ensure I wasn't being 6pooled, proxy 2gated, or 2raxed. But whenever I experienced any hyper-aggressive mid-game allins, at least what I think were mid-game allins, they were so badly executed most of the time that despite my lack of scouting I would still hold them off.
My knowledge of zerg was rather limited so I didn't know any build orders and had no grasp of advanced zerg mechanics, so I really only relied on macro and knowledge of what zerg unit counters what. Through this method of just playing macro, I got to low platinum. It was at this point that I hit a wall with my mechanics and actually had to start learning build orders to be competitive. Now I'm high plat, but that's not really relevant anymore.
Point is, macro really is key. I think your problem is as you said, if you just a-move marines into collossus and banelings, you can have GM macro and still lose. At this point, you may be asking 'But doesn't this just prove that you can't just macro to win?'. As I mentioned above, GM macro won't save your marines from speed banelings. You also need to know what unit to macro given the situation. Mix in a few tanks with those marines, and even if you don't micro those marines against a ling/bling comp you will still have enough at home to hold off a counter. Also, no offense intended, but gold mechanics when transferred to a new race you don't have experience with won't give you all that much of an advantage over low silver players, since they still need a lot of work.
Yes I probably agree. But when a good player like you goes to bronze to prove that macro is important, it's not totally reliable. To me, the 'macro better' theory means just macro with other variables controlled: suppose we have an AI doing perfect macro and a-moving occasionally; according to the 'macro better' it would get into plat without problems. But would it? None of this is to claim that bronzies are good or that I am good (on the contrary, I am exactly where I should be).
I have worked my way up from the totally lowest levels to the very high in my job, and misperceptions exists on both sides. So at the lower level, you always think you must be better than you really are. I did that too. But at the higher level, where you can see so clearly what is essential, its fallacious too because it hides so much knowledge you aren't consciously aware anymore.
On April 03 2012 08:00 blackwolf wrote: Tbh my opinion is if you are that bad at the game (and taking it seriously) then you should just stop playing it all together, spend time doing something you are better at, instead of giving yourself a lot of frustration due to losses. Everybody got something they are absolutely terrible at but spending a lot of time doing excatly that is incredibly stupid So if you can not get out of bronze despite actually playing the game each day then i dont think this game is for you.
Well this goes against everything this thread is about. My whole point is that I love the game even though I play a great deal and stay in bronze. Furthermore, as a community, this is the attitude that will hinder the growth of esports. If our attitude is that you have to be in X league or higher in order to have a reason to play... well, that's bad.
In my opinion, if we have a lot of people watching who don't even play the game... that would be great!
On April 03 2012 08:00 blackwolf wrote: Tbh my opinion is if you are that bad at the game (and taking it seriously) then you should just stop playing it all together, spend time doing something you are better at, instead of giving yourself a lot of frustration due to losses.
Even most people in bronze league win half their games.
This is true. I've had a record as high as 78% which I held for over a month.
On April 02 2012 14:21 Zariel wrote: Your pretty much a bronze leaguer if you have zero sense of the game. You might think you do, but you don't. I have friends that play 2-5 hours a day and are still rank 1 bronze league.
Essentially, they don't play to win. Instead they play to see their 200/200 void ray army kill the enemy or die trying.
The difference in 'macro' between a bronze player than the rest of the leagues is that bronze players tend to 'zone out' to fights and like to think for like 10 seconds on 'where should i place this gateway'
This is very not true. As I have said many times in this thread, early and mid game aggression are perfectly normal in my experience, and many of my games will not make it past the 13 minute mark.
(For those who questioned whether a bronze player uses the same definition of "early", I mean around 6 minutes or earlier; (warpgate has finished, ling pokes have occurred, etc.etc.)
Edit: I was referring to the "Instead they play to see their 200/200 void ray army kill the enemy or die trying" bit.