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Where is your pride?
Hey atleast he doesn't play protoss...jk hahaha :D
But can we agree that Terran skill ceiling is higher, therefore protoss will be less skilled? Or are we saying both races take the same amount of skill, which obviously i don't agree with.
Hopefully me playing protoss from now on will change my mind?
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On April 06 2012 02:57 Superneenja wrote:Hey atleast he doesn't play protoss...jk hahaha :D But can we agree that Terran skill ceiling is higher, therefore protoss will be less skilled? Or are we saying both races take the same amount of skill, which obviously i don't agree with. Hopefully me playing protoss from now on will change my mind? I think Terran takes more skill to fights lesser skilled Protoss but I am fine with that. It'll be boring otherwise.
Off topic, Haagan daz is really good.
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On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote: Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is)
There have been quite a few decent terrans who have posted here. BeastyQT is one of them, unless you consider anyone other then MKP/MVP to be less then decent.
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On April 06 2012 02:47 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote: Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is) Because Z and P NEVER EVER whined EVER. It's those stupid terrans that do all the whining. Every P and Z just waited patiently on blizz to fix the game and didn't say anything anywhere. Fuck you.
You realize his name backwards is TerranOp (Overpowered), right?
You're really getting mad at such an obvious troll?
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On April 06 2012 03:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:47 Greenei wrote:On April 06 2012 02:01 pOnarreT wrote: Don't stop. Bump this thread. SC2 would be better off without whiners (whiners = Terran = baby)! Bump this thread!
I'm sure decent Terrans don't post at this thread.
FU Terran whiner players! FU! and not the race! the whiner players! FU lol! whooo that was quite refreshing
C'mon other Z and P, you know you wanna do it! Let's all give a big FU to terran whiners. whooo!!!
Maybe they should be the swarm since the Terran players are like a plague (plague of whiners that is) Because Z and P NEVER EVER whined EVER. It's those stupid terrans that do all the whining. Every P and Z just waited patiently on blizz to fix the game and didn't say anything anywhere. Fuck you. You realize his name backwards is TerranOp (Overpowered), right? You're really getting mad at such an obvious troll? so clever, i thought I was the only one to realize that.
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On April 06 2012 02:57 Superneenja wrote:Hey atleast he doesn't play protoss...jk hahaha :D But can we agree that Terran skill ceiling is higher, therefore protoss will be less skilled? Or are we saying both races take the same amount of skill, which obviously i don't agree with. Hopefully me playing protoss from now on will change my mind?
I don't think anyone is going to agree to that. Different races have require different skills. I am intrested to see how you do as protoss if you take is objectively.
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On April 06 2012 02:12 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:58 Naphal wrote:On April 06 2012 01:53 Plansix wrote: The only solution for this is for the game to be made easier so they do not need to improve. the other solution would be to make protoss harder, i must say i really like that approach more. Wouldn't mind that. In fact, it might make me switch back to Protoss, which I was since the beta when suddenly I decided I didn't want to play the race considered the easiest anymore. Plus MKP's awesome, lawl, so I'm T now. Yeah, something that made Protoss "harder" to play would be nice. In BW you had shuttle play (reaver drop, HT drop, zealot bombing etc) that was alot of fun and it felt really great the day you got the hang of it for real, the same goes when you got the hang of using casters or something simple like when you had nice sim city for your gates and you had a nice flow of gateway production. There is nothing like this in sc2 (other than speed prism HT play) and it's a shame. It's also no fun playing Protoss when you only hurt yourself by spreading out your army for multiprong attacks and multitasking instead of going for the deathball style of play. Another big turn off is warpgates for me. It just feels so slow and boring when it comes to macro when you have warpgates instead of gateways.
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On April 06 2012 03:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 02:57 Superneenja wrote:Where is your pride? Hey atleast he doesn't play protoss...jk hahaha :D But can we agree that Terran skill ceiling is higher, therefore protoss will be less skilled? Or are we saying both races take the same amount of skill, which obviously i don't agree with. Hopefully me playing protoss from now on will change my mind? I don't think anyone is going to agree to that. Different races have require different skills. I am intrested to see how you do as protoss if you take is objectively.
I will, and I will take it as seriously as I did Terran. When I played random I saw more success as P or Z and I wanted to switch then, but now I have an opportunity to make a difference...in this thread! Researching some builds as we speak(when i played random I knew general builds but no timings..and yet surprisingly won a good amount of games, more with Z than P though)
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While most terrans are annoyed about the amount of control terran requires, I really think terran is the best designed race in SC2 right now. Both protoss and zerg should require at least as much APM, and should have the micro options (and requirements) units like marines and tanks bring to the terran race.
Its not that terran needs to have it easier, but other races need to have it harder. None of this zealot/archon/colossus bullshit, we need more units like reavers and goons that really force the protoss to micro.
The terrans didn't leave because their race was badly designed, they left because there was an easy way out with Z/P. Who can blame them?
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On April 06 2012 01:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:52 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote: Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know. It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones. It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears.
Haha
Yeah. I might rage a little but we all know that the real Terran players don't really care, and just play along. You might lose more TvP than before ( hell, I just lost one because i missed ONE templar ) but whatever, gonna improve that ghost control. :D
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After seeing the korean winrates (http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQ.png) I realised that we might see another nerf. TvP is already so hard (macro terran), and it seems like it will get even harder in the future.
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On April 06 2012 00:35 ArcticFox wrote: At least when a T plays vs. a Z, we know that they're putting in as much effort macroing as we are into microing. It's a different mechanic, but both are damn difficult to do. Spreading creep, hitting injects, setting up flanks, keeping map vision, readying counterattacks -- there's a lot of effort that goes into a Zerg trying to beat a Terran, and there's just as much effort the Terran has to put in to keep the Zerg in check and running roughshod across the map.
There's nothing mechanically difficult about what a protoss has to do to win a PvT game (Note to prevent flames: good mechanics are important in general for all 3 races, but by design, there's no micro that a protoss can do that makes a Diamond league viewer think, "wow, there's no way I could pull that off." -- you can blame the Colossus for most of this. I also couldn't tell you the last game I saw where a protoss's nexii didn't all hit 100 energy at some point, plus with how forgiving the warp gate mechanic is, there's no way for a Protoss to wow you with macro either like a Zerg does.), and that's where the disparity starts coming in. At an "equal" skill level (which is theoretically anyone I meet on the ladder, which should have my MMR fairly spot on after 3000 or so 1s games), the amount of effort expended by a protoss to win is FAR less than what I'm expending to win. For a P to win vs a T, it's simply a matter of setting up enough FFs to survive the midgame, secure a 3rd, then 2 cannons and a templar in each base to prevent drops. Then put your zealots in the front of your army, build your AoE units, 1a, and randomly storm to keep the Bio army moving instead of firing. I've played 1s from both sides (I don't play Zerg b/c I'm terrible at it, much respect to all those Zergs who can keep all those macro mechanics flowing all game and not just die to early timings x.x), and once I've secured a 3rd as P, I feel like there's actually no way to lose vs. a T without a glaring error on my side.
The rest of the TvP complaints have been made throughout the thread, but one bears repeating -- the one-sided domino effect. When it gets past about the 15 minute mark, when the T army is broken by a P, with any number of units leftover, the zealot warp-in and 1a ends the game, or at the very least causes significant economic damage and makes the next push the game-ender. When the P army is broken by the T, you're lucky to get any damage done at all before the next zealot warp-in, or even a single templar stationed at the base storms your already damaged army and ends your push.
There's a reason that the current best Terrans in the world (read: Koreans) are all of the 1-base and 2-base timing specialists, and our macro heroes are all falling out of Code S. Terran early game and midgame play are extremely strong, and our late game play is very lacking. So the Terrans who want to win are focusing on hitting strong midgame timings that force massive reactions or just kill the opponent outright, and the Terrans who spent their time learning late-game focused macro styles are really struggling. The macro heroes are performing well in TvT, but not making much of a splash in the other 2 MUs.
Now, what's the fix to this? Remove the Colossus in HotS and make something they're being given useful (HotS units for Protoss, though they're very likely to change, at the reveal looked like utter shit -- except the Tempest of course, which is ANOTHER massive AoE no-micro unit....seriously blizzard, stop with the terrible, terrible damage already...), change how the warp gate mechanic works so that the choice between regular gateway and warp gate is a significant one (such as: make the gateway produce faster, but warp gate can do long-distance reinforcement on a longer CD) and rebalance the game around the idea that something that does a HUGE amount of damage should take at least some effort to maximize its effectiveness. I'm fine with Templar doing a ton of damage, because they take at least some effort to position and use correctly. Colossi are the #1 reason for Protoss being given the "herp derp 1a" stigma, which isn't really deserved, and is detrimental to the game as a whole. And yes, I'm totally for an early game nerf (marine DPS?) if it would get our late game to a usable state.
More people need to read this.
The only reason T winrates are higher is because every PvT is practically guaranteed to have a midgame while it is not guaranteed that every game will have an endgame. Simply put, TvP sucks for anyone who doesn't want to do a massive <20 minute timing.
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On April 06 2012 03:20 Snowbear wrote: After seeing the korean winrates (http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQ.png) I realised that we might see another nerf. TvP is already so hard (macro terran), and it seems like it will get even harder in the future. Winrates alone say nothing.
When Korean terrans say 3-3 protoss is "T_T", or 8+ broodlords mean gg, thats a pretty big tell on balance too.
If they want to nerf terran in the early-midgame, they have to include lategame buffs.
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On April 06 2012 00:35 ArcticFox wrote: At least when a T plays vs. a Z, we know that they're putting in as much effort macroing as we are into microing. It's a different mechanic, but both are damn difficult to do. Spreading creep, hitting injects, setting up flanks, keeping map vision, readying counterattacks -- there's a lot of effort that goes into a Zerg trying to beat a Terran, and there's just as much effort the Terran has to put in to keep the Zerg in check and running roughshod across the map.
There's nothing mechanically difficult about what a protoss has to do to win a PvT game (Note to prevent flames: good mechanics are important in general for all 3 races, but by design, there's no micro that a protoss can do that makes a Diamond league viewer think, "wow, there's no way I could pull that off." -- you can blame the Colossus for most of this. I also couldn't tell you the last game I saw where a protoss's nexii didn't all hit 100 energy at some point, plus with how forgiving the warp gate mechanic is, there's no way for a Protoss to wow you with macro either like a Zerg does.), and that's where the disparity starts coming in. At an "equal" skill level (which is theoretically anyone I meet on the ladder, which should have my MMR fairly spot on after 3000 or so 1s games), the amount of effort expended by a protoss to win is FAR less than what I'm expending to win. For a P to win vs a T, it's simply a matter of setting up enough FFs to survive the midgame, secure a 3rd, then 2 cannons and a templar in each base to prevent drops. Then put your zealots in the front of your army, build your AoE units, 1a, and randomly storm to keep the Bio army moving instead of firing. I've played 1s from both sides (I don't play Zerg b/c I'm terrible at it, much respect to all those Zergs who can keep all those macro mechanics flowing all game and not just die to early timings x.x), and once I've secured a 3rd as P, I feel like there's actually no way to lose vs. a T without a glaring error on my side.
The rest of the TvP complaints have been made throughout the thread, but one bears repeating -- the one-sided domino effect. When it gets past about the 15 minute mark, when the T army is broken by a P, with any number of units leftover, the zealot warp-in and 1a ends the game, or at the very least causes significant economic damage and makes the next push the game-ender. When the P army is broken by the T, you're lucky to get any damage done at all before the next zealot warp-in, or even a single templar stationed at the base storms your already damaged army and ends your push.
There's a reason that the current best Terrans in the world (read: Koreans) are all of the 1-base and 2-base timing specialists, and our macro heroes are all falling out of Code S. Terran early game and midgame play are extremely strong, and our late game play is very lacking. So the Terrans who want to win are focusing on hitting strong midgame timings that force massive reactions or just kill the opponent outright, and the Terrans who spent their time learning late-game focused macro styles are really struggling. The macro heroes are performing well in TvT, but not making much of a splash in the other 2 MUs.
Now, what's the fix to this? Remove the Colossus in HotS and make something they're being given useful (HotS units for Protoss, though they're very likely to change, at the reveal looked like utter shit -- except the Tempest of course, which is ANOTHER massive AoE no-micro unit....seriously blizzard, stop with the terrible, terrible damage already...), change how the warp gate mechanic works so that the choice between regular gateway and warp gate is a significant one (such as: make the gateway produce faster, but warp gate can do long-distance reinforcement on a longer CD) and rebalance the game around the idea that something that does a HUGE amount of damage should take at least some effort to maximize its effectiveness. I'm fine with Templar doing a ton of damage, because they take at least some effort to position and use correctly. Colossi are the #1 reason for Protoss being given the "herp derp 1a" stigma, which isn't really deserved, and is detrimental to the game as a whole. And yes, I'm totally for an early game nerf (marine DPS?) if it would get our late game to a usable state.
ANOTHER GEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On April 06 2012 03:20 Snowbear wrote: After seeing the korean winrates (http://i.imgur.com/VCQcQ.png) I realised that we might see another nerf. TvP is already so hard (macro terran), and it seems like it will get even harder in the future.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard is never gonna change something on core units. That's why they like to adjust on lategame spellcaster, they don't affect any other part of the game.
But nerfing marine, marauder or medivac ? They'll never do that now. And only that basicly win you a good part of TvP games.
A good example would be how they nerfed early game bio or proxy marauder by using nerf like the depot before rax, the stim research increase time, or slow shell as an upgrade.
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On April 06 2012 03:25 Gimix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 00:35 ArcticFox wrote: At least when a T plays vs. a Z, we know that they're putting in as much effort macroing as we are into microing. It's a different mechanic, but both are damn difficult to do. Spreading creep, hitting injects, setting up flanks, keeping map vision, readying counterattacks -- there's a lot of effort that goes into a Zerg trying to beat a Terran, and there's just as much effort the Terran has to put in to keep the Zerg in check and running roughshod across the map.
There's nothing mechanically difficult about what a protoss has to do to win a PvT game (Note to prevent flames: good mechanics are important in general for all 3 races, but by design, there's no micro that a protoss can do that makes a Diamond league viewer think, "wow, there's no way I could pull that off." -- you can blame the Colossus for most of this. I also couldn't tell you the last game I saw where a protoss's nexii didn't all hit 100 energy at some point, plus with how forgiving the warp gate mechanic is, there's no way for a Protoss to wow you with macro either like a Zerg does.), and that's where the disparity starts coming in. At an "equal" skill level (which is theoretically anyone I meet on the ladder, which should have my MMR fairly spot on after 3000 or so 1s games), the amount of effort expended by a protoss to win is FAR less than what I'm expending to win. For a P to win vs a T, it's simply a matter of setting up enough FFs to survive the midgame, secure a 3rd, then 2 cannons and a templar in each base to prevent drops. Then put your zealots in the front of your army, build your AoE units, 1a, and randomly storm to keep the Bio army moving instead of firing. I've played 1s from both sides (I don't play Zerg b/c I'm terrible at it, much respect to all those Zergs who can keep all those macro mechanics flowing all game and not just die to early timings x.x), and once I've secured a 3rd as P, I feel like there's actually no way to lose vs. a T without a glaring error on my side.
The rest of the TvP complaints have been made throughout the thread, but one bears repeating -- the one-sided domino effect. When it gets past about the 15 minute mark, when the T army is broken by a P, with any number of units leftover, the zealot warp-in and 1a ends the game, or at the very least causes significant economic damage and makes the next push the game-ender. When the P army is broken by the T, you're lucky to get any damage done at all before the next zealot warp-in, or even a single templar stationed at the base storms your already damaged army and ends your push.
There's a reason that the current best Terrans in the world (read: Koreans) are all of the 1-base and 2-base timing specialists, and our macro heroes are all falling out of Code S. Terran early game and midgame play are extremely strong, and our late game play is very lacking. So the Terrans who want to win are focusing on hitting strong midgame timings that force massive reactions or just kill the opponent outright, and the Terrans who spent their time learning late-game focused macro styles are really struggling. The macro heroes are performing well in TvT, but not making much of a splash in the other 2 MUs.
Now, what's the fix to this? Remove the Colossus in HotS and make something they're being given useful (HotS units for Protoss, though they're very likely to change, at the reveal looked like utter shit -- except the Tempest of course, which is ANOTHER massive AoE no-micro unit....seriously blizzard, stop with the terrible, terrible damage already...), change how the warp gate mechanic works so that the choice between regular gateway and warp gate is a significant one (such as: make the gateway produce faster, but warp gate can do long-distance reinforcement on a longer CD) and rebalance the game around the idea that something that does a HUGE amount of damage should take at least some effort to maximize its effectiveness. I'm fine with Templar doing a ton of damage, because they take at least some effort to position and use correctly. Colossi are the #1 reason for Protoss being given the "herp derp 1a" stigma, which isn't really deserved, and is detrimental to the game as a whole. And yes, I'm totally for an early game nerf (marine DPS?) if it would get our late game to a usable state. More people need to read this. The only reason T winrates are higher is because every PvT is practically guaranteed to have a midgame while it is not guaranteed that every game will have an endgame. Simply put, TvP sucks for anyone who doesn't want to do a massive <20 minute timing.
PvZ is the same way. You can't macro for 20 minutes and expect to win without some significant aggression. It is just the way the game works.
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On April 05 2012 22:59 MetalSlug wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 22:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2012 21:59 xTrim wrote:http://drop.sc/143521how about this one then? win every single engagement and not being able to do absolutely nothing after them Then lose ONE engagement and lose the game :D masters level as well I noticed four engagements: @16:30- You sacrificed vikings for colossi (fair enough), but you never did any harrassment at all. It's fine; you guys are both macroing and powering. This attack ends up being negligible, as you both just re-make your units. @20:00- You kill off his colossi with your vikings but oh my god your units are all sitting in his (somewhat poorly placed) storms x.x If you just moved your army back a few feet they would all be green instead of red. You just sat there and took it. You were so worried about taking out his colossi that you sacrificed most of your army's health, which allowed reinforcements to clean you up (you had no medivacs left). @26:00- You have a lot of ghosts and you EMP most of his army, but you still miss some HTs and he still hits some key storms, which equalizes the damage. The colossi/ HT/ ghost/ viking count are all pretty much reduced to zero, and so the game resets and stabilizes. @32:00- The final engagement, once you guys are all powered and maxed again. You run up and EMP all his high templars (well done) but apparently don't consider that now he's got a fuckton of colossi and archons (merged high templar) and you end up being backed into a wall/ don't micro effectively and you get rolled this time around. It also didn't help that a lot of your vikings got erased by archon splash damage before they could take out the mass colossi. You should have sniped colossi with your vikings (you can at least 2-shot them with that many vikings) since he had no more storms, and then after that harrassment just split your army so that your pile of bio doesnt get hit by multiple archons at the same time. And then you BM ::shrugs:: It really all came down to that last engagement. You tried engaging max archon, colossi, chargelot head on, and that shouldn't work, considering your unit composition of... bio and vikings (because the ghosts and HTs and medivacs were gone at that point) is so much cheaper and weaker. You needed to harrass more and pick off units, imho. So basicly what you trying to say is that while Terran is not allowed to make any mistakes its totaly normal that protoss come back from anything and mob the floor ? Because you are analysing this replay by pro/semi-pro standarts...
AND YEAH... very true... please guys take your time to watch this rep and make up your opinion;...!
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On April 06 2012 03:17 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:54 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2012 01:52 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote:On April 06 2012 01:47 SeventhPride wrote:On April 06 2012 01:44 Blasterion wrote:On April 06 2012 01:43 SeventhPride wrote: Weird how this thread has went from "Zerg imba!" To "Protoss imba!" Its always been mostly about TvP though :/ This thread was created after the snipe nerf though, but I don't mind. Its entertaining at least, ahhaha, watching protoss and terran having a go at each other. I wonder if we have all forgotten we are actually humans. (And no, I am not saying we are all terrans.) I strictly believe this thread is still here because it prevent the whiners to go somewhere else. Like some kind of catalyst you know. It's because they are not courageous enough. Terran are only for the courageous ones. It is true, there are some truely brave terrans in this thread, who have said they have skills fighting protoss and are able to beat them in open combat at all parts of the game. These terrans have the courage of Russian Dancing Bears. Haha Yeah. I might rage a little but we all know that the real Terran players don't really care, and just play along. You might lose more TvP than before ( hell, I just lost one because i missed ONE templar ) but whatever, gonna improve that ghost control. :D Well if i must out play my opponent to win, well.... skill will fix some of it, the rest I'll let my courage trump them.
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I have a lot more troubles vs Z than vs P... at least vs P you can do some effective timing pushes while zerg counters everything and they have even better lategame than toss with bl/infest.
I just lost a game... it was retarded. 5 bases T vs 3 bases Z. He's not mining anymore. I'm maxed and he's not, but he has ~10 bl and some infestors; there is nothing I can do and I lose -_-.
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I've been facing a TON of terrans the past few days :O I think they are returning!
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