Current Korean Starcraft 2 teams Startale, IM, Prime, MVP, oGs, NSHoseo, FXO, TSL and ZeNEX have formed an organization named "e-Sports Federation". Startale's head coach Won JongWook will be its first president.
In the midst of a transition period for the Korean SC2 scene, where KeSPA(Korean e-Sports Association) and its teams are looking to join the scene, the goal of the Federation will be to promote e-sports around the world, and secure rights for those current SC2 players and teams that have helped to build the SC2 scene so far.
There will be no special conditions for those willing to join the Federation, and invitations will be extended to foreign organizations as well.
The Federation means to, in the next few days: - notify Blizzard of it's inception - ask KeSPA for an official place for negotiations, and start talks advocating free participation of current SC2 players and teams in the incoming leagues, among other things.
The news ends here. It's my thoughts from here on.
e-Sports Federation != extinct SC2Con - The latter, while formed by the same organizations as the former, was created with completely different goals in mind.
SC2Con - I think their goal was to create an organization that would exert its influence on the teams in matters like player transactions. It didn't work out because, honestly, there was no way to force a team to do or to not do anything. How can a bunch of teams force other team or player to do their bidding? By not talking to them? By not typing gg whenever that player plays? By forfeiting a match whenever that player plays? It's just not possible. There is no leverage.
e-Sports Federation - This one is different. They have lots of leverage on KeSPA and its teams. The whole scene IS THEM. The only thing KeSPA has is the new incoming OnGameNet SC2 league, and the current BW teams with players with no clue how to play SC2 properly at a high level.
Mod Edit
On March 30 2012 13:46 FXOBoSs wrote: Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
This is pretty weird, I'm not sure that this is going to go anywhere, with KeSPA's pending influence on the scene, in addition to how hard sc2con failed.
Also, isn't it pretty weird to try to make a legitimate organization, announce it, then go ahead and talk to the other major players in the sc2scene? I mean I guess it doesn't hurt to do it this way, but I feel like it could add some legitimacy if everyone was already on board when it was announced.
they see the writing on the wall. If kespa wants to be a dick in any way they can wipe out all the pro teams almost overnight. Its hard to see a world with all the kespa teams and the non kespa teams.
In other news kespa has finaly got influence in sc2. 2012 is a different world then what 2011 was in esports
Hopefully there's gonna be some cooperation with KeSPA, cause they're gonna need it if they don't want another GOM Classic situation lol, I guess we'll find out in the next few days
Interesting, seemed bound to happen after SC2con disbanded.
It'd be nice if they invite foreign teams, and don't try to insulate themselves further (like they do when foreign teams try to recruit players through the "proper channels," as referenced by Jason Lake on The Executives)
Will Kespa have eaten this organization in 6 months? Time will tell.
so.. the new drama is going to be kespa wanting to maintain its power and swallow whole the current SC2 scene.. and Esports federation defending the current scene I think this is going to be interesting.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Thank you for the insight, but what if kespa doesn't want any part of the current sc2 scene? What leverage does this association have? It seems that either kespa disagrees and will just continue running their own show in korea with their own teams, or they want to be part of the current sc2 scene in which case there is no conflict.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
I hope the teams can accomplish that goal. I really want to see current SC2+ kespa SC2 live in peace...
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Thank you for the insight, but what if kespa doesn't want any part of the current sc2 scene? What leverage does this association have? It seems that either kespa disagrees and will just continue running their own show in korea with their own teams, or they want to be part of the current sc2 scene in which case there is no conflict.
I would think Kespa wouldn't carry enough leverage to monopolize anything. Not only would they have to go against GOM, but it would be fair to say that most foriegn leagues would also side with GOM. The scene is too complicated for BW esque model.
On March 30 2012 13:34 BLinD-RawR wrote: I hope this does better than SC2Con
Well teams really need to give up some power, something that almost never happens. When a huge Korean team like Slayers doesn't enter, that kinda makes me doubt how much influence this organization will have.
I get the feeling that this organization was formed in order to protect the current SC2 teams in korea as of now. Seeing that the kespa teams will have more money and more arguably more talented players, it seems like the current SC2 scene in korea is just trying to get ready for the blow that will hit them when kespa switches. Not that I'm surprsied, but no slayers in the federation. Does this mean slayers will have to be extra careful in keeping their players?
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Thank you for the insight, but what if kespa doesn't want any part of the current sc2 scene? What leverage does this association have? It seems that either kespa disagrees and will just continue running their own show in korea with their own teams, or they want to be part of the current sc2 scene in which case there is no conflict.
It depends on how Blizzard negotiate with Kespa. I doubt Blizzard and GomTV let Kespa broadcast leagues with terms that are unfavorable to them.
Moreover, since this is esports Federation, I think it's gonna cover LoL in the future too, given some SC2 teams are expanding to LoL.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
i like this news alot at least sc2 teams are working together.. i hope when the sc1 pros comes to sc2 the sc2 pros would go and STOMP the hell out of the sc1 pros
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
When I read FXO was a part of this, it gave me hope that it wasn't just SC2con again. Your post helps solidify that as well. Thank you FXOBoSs
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Why did SlayerS choose not be be involved?
When has slayers ever been involved with other teams? If you look throughout history, they have always done their own thing.
On March 30 2012 13:22 nokz88 wrote: There will be no special conditions for those willing to join the Federation, and invitations will be extended to foreign organizations as well.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Why did SlayerS choose not be be involved?
When has slayers ever been involved with other teams? If you look throughout history, they have always done their own thing.
While they aren't intricately involved, don't SlayerS and EG have some degree of partnership?
People saying they have no pull are wrong, as this organisation IS run by the heads of the teams. There will always be great players with incentive to play.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Thanks a lot for this! I really hope good comes out of this and nothing dramatically bad... Also the lack of SlayerS joining another group is somewhat concerning
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Why did SlayerS choose not be be involved?
When has slayers ever been involved with other teams? If you look throughout history, they have always done their own thing.
Huh? Their team recruitment is definitely different and they have certainly made strides with allowing a few of the EG boys to practice at their facilities. Sure they weren't apart of the first organization either, no? They might do things their own way, but they might be waiting on something more as well.
That's the most likely scenario for holding out anyway.
On March 30 2012 13:22 nokz88 wrote: There will be no special conditions for those willing to join the Federation, and invitations will be extended to foreign organizations as well.
So anyone and everyone can join?
Hopefully this clauses preserves a foreigner presence in Korea
On March 30 2012 13:22 nokz88 wrote: There will be no special conditions for those willing to join the Federation, and invitations will be extended to foreign organizations as well.
So anyone and everyone can join?
Hopefully this clauses preserves a foreigner presence in Korea
Everyone is welcome to join and keep your conspiracy theory hat off, lmao.
I think is kind of a defensive league to make sure the BW teams don't just decimate all the current sc2 teams by buying all the players. Make sure they at least get good prices.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
I'm glad you guys are arming now considering all the crap KeSPA has done in the past. Good plans for the future.
Sounds like there will be foreign teams invited into this as well. I'm hopeful that there will be the ability for us to organize, and be represented properly within the group. Being in a wonderful partnership with StarTale, I feel this offers a unique opportunity for those foreign teams included to appropriately and adequately represent the collective interests of Korean teams abroad, as well as the reverse, both which are beneficial to players as well as help fuel the continued development of the global SC2 scene and ecosystem.
I'm my view, there it isn't nearly as divided as is once was, from the "great escape" to NaNi's 7-probe-rush, we've already seen how interconnected these two seemingly separate scenes have become. Today, we have, as we should into the future, a growing sense of SC2 being a truly global community, with representative interests in various places, of various sizes, and with varying influence. It's becoming nearly impossible to distinguish where Korea ends and the foreign scene begins, with almost every foreign event presenting as much as 1/2 of code s players in attendance. The only real barriers we face is that of language, culture, and custom, and this new body of teams, representative of "the sc2 world" will help us be better equipped to meet the challenges we face together, as well as sieze the opportunities ahead, by making them more attainable for players and more sustainable for the teams that invest in and support their continued success.
Wow, this is very good -- with the worldwide popularity, and adjusted goals of this organization, it has a lot of power to do a lot of good for the scene, especially to keep Kespa in check.
GOOD Deal! I hope foreign teams consider joining this as well.
On March 30 2012 13:46 FXOBoSs wrote: It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
what happen to the korean player on foreigner team?
It's okay man. Too few people understand what KeSPA is and how they operate. I can understand why they feel threatened. In fact, I even warned BoSs in the past to not take them lightly, lol.
i can tell u guys right now if starcraft 2 is gonna float its gonna be only if kespa and this group work together if we get a brood war situation both sc1 and sc2 will die and LOL will take all the sponsors. KESPA IS GOING TO KILL ESPORTS!!!!
I hope they pick their battles better than the Sc2Con did.
This will be pretty important, I'm glad this organization is coming into this with the best possible intentions with the freedom of the players to participate in 2 tournaments in mind rather than just self preservation.
On March 30 2012 13:54 Plexa wrote: So is this a move prompted by being scared of Kespa?
I guess some level of protection is a good thing though
I would think the purpose of this organization it to create something BETTER than KESPA
Kespa isn't all bad. Besides player treatment, everything else they have done has been good.
And player treatment isn't necessarily a Kespa thing, it's more that the competition in BW is so cutthroat.
Of course I would like more than one organization because monopoly is never the best thing for fans.
Now please tell me how they treat their players bad? if u say its because of the pp thing blablab i wouldnt say they treat the players bad but rather have harsh rules for the official matches.
Kespa didnt destroy the GomTV BW League. there was just no place for it in BW.
I would imagine that Kespa is scaring the current SC2 teams. Kespa is not a carebear company, or at least hasn't been in the past. It destroyed GOMtv's attempts to get into bw and restricted the teams and players who could participate in progaming events. I think this is just an attempt by the teams to protect themselves from Kespa coming in and taking control of the scene. It's really a move that was inevitable.
Slayers has enough support that I think they be able to survive despite Kespa coming into the scene, or potentially could join Kespa. They've always done they're own thing because they are the most financially stable and, likely, most popular team in Korea. The other teams are always struggling for sponsors and to provide for their players. The well off Kespa run teams could easily run these teams out of town, poaching their players or buying them off, which would be a travesty.
I think most people in the community will support this move and should be wary about Kespa's involvement in SC2.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
You know that Kespa isn't anti-foreigner right? They were very accomodating to the few who were good enough to get on Korean teams. Its just that foreigners weren't good enough to actually compete in Korea. Stop this bandwagon nonsense, you have no idea how good having a regulatory body like Kespa is for Brood War. Sure they make mistakes sometimes, but they fix them. I find it funny how people always sympathize with GOM over Kespa. GOM was a league funded by Blizzard so that they could try to take over the Brood War scene and switch to SC2 easily when the time came.
Really interesting changes in the SC2 scene - this is just a harbinger of all the upheaval that will come with the Brood War teams starting to play SC2
Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
Odd that nno foreignn teams (unless you count FXO) joined in on this. Seems like with esports being global now it would be good for at least the big foreign teams like EG/TL/fnatic/col to join it too.
Unless foreign teams join (which appear to be better financed), this federation will seems incomplete to me. The Korean and foreign scenes, especially in regards to player transfers, have become very intertangled, and if you want to express solidarity, you need the major foreign teams as well.
On March 30 2012 14:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
KeSPA has no real leverage over Blizzard or SC2, period. Blizzard threatened to go to court and KeSPA folded once they understood that Blizzard were serious and instead of ignoring Blizzard they started to negotiate with Blizzard where KeSPA eventually accepted the terms that Blizzard gave them. Whatever power KeSPA might have had in SC1 is now gone. I suspect KeSPA can't do shit and has very little power about SC2 and that they now are scared shitless of Blizzard and what they would do if KeSPA did something that would displease them.
Someone had to do it sooner or later. I hope the parties that bind into this are regulated in player trading, to discourage contract issues ala Stephano-Complexity.
Probably the biggest news of the year so far in terms of the professional sc2 scene. I hope it can sort of slow down all of the drama with things like Stephano being traded and untraded, and all of the important business stuff. Hopefully the Federation can preserve both stability and mobility. That being said, I tend to connotate Federation with autocratic/evil control (Star Wars, 2112, etc.), and I hope the new eSF can buck the trend :D
I pray to the gods at be that this keeps Kespa in check... I would hate to see their tyranny ruin our amazing community. A day where someone can't say "gl hf =D" in a tournament is one in which I don't wanna see.
On March 30 2012 14:58 Mordanis wrote: Probably the biggest news of the year so far in terms of the professional sc2 scene. I hope it can sort of slow down all of the drama with things like Stephano being traded and untraded, and all of the important business stuff. Hopefully the Federation can preserve both stability and mobility. That being said, I tend to connotate Federation with autocratic/evil control (Star Wars, 2112, etc.), and I hope the new eSF can buck the trend :D
LOL. Like all the so called player "contracts" that no one apparently gives a damn about and that doesn't really have an impact on the players if they breach it. The actual outcome of breaking these contracts so far have been the Owner or coach of the player going public and crying about it. "We had a contract and you broke it, *Sob sob crying*" Funny stuff.
On March 30 2012 14:58 Mordanis wrote: Probably the biggest news of the year so far in terms of the professional sc2 scene. I hope it can sort of slow down all of the drama with things like Stephano being traded and untraded, and all of the important business stuff. Hopefully the Federation can preserve both stability and mobility. That being said, I tend to connotate Federation with autocratic/evil control (Star Wars, 2112, etc.), and I hope the new eSF can buck the trend :D
LOL. Like all the so called player "contracts" that no one apparently gives a damn about and that doesn't really have an impact on the players if they breach it. The actual outcome of breaking these contracts so far have been the Owner or coach of the player going public and crying about it. "We had a contract and you broke it, *Sob sob crying*" Funny stuff.
That's exactly the sort of thing that I'm hoping the Federation will be able to curtail. There's really no incentive to break a contract, so hopefully eSF will provide the stick to stop the bullshit. (and hows that for a mixed metaphor :D)
This is an interesting step in Starcraft's journey. I feel compelled to share some thoughts.
When do we hear from Kespa?
Why does Blizzard get to create a situation like this and not answer to fans about it [I know they made the game, but you understand my point] Blizzard has begun an effort to place themselves in a regulatory capacity for competitive Starcraft2. Are Blizzard's negotiations with Kespa necessary because GOM's control is currently too powerful for Blizzard to exert "proper" influence on the Starcraft2 scene?
I'm excited to see a response from Gom's teams in the creation of this federation. What's fascinating is that within hours this thread has posts from team CEO's and similar, clearly this is a fulcrum moment.
Is it possible to emulate the most popular sport in the world [futbol/soccer] by internationalizing teams and organizations - creating player unions, franchise teams, multiple leagues, and International play? The marketing possibilities from that formula are huge, and I want to help make it happen.
KESPA is an organization from brood war who put players in positions they didnt have to be in and they used there monopoly on the market to suppress any growth that they didnt want including making sure GOM never got into the broodwar scene and abused the players. now they want to take control of sc2 and blizzard and GOM shoved a massive boot up there ass good on them if they wanna play this time there gonna play fair.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
You know that Kespa isn't anti-foreigner right? They were very accomodating to the few who were good enough to get on Korean teams. Its just that foreigners weren't good enough to actually compete in Korea. Stop this bandwagon nonsense, you have no idea how good having a regulatory body like Kespa is for Brood War. Sure they make mistakes sometimes, but they fix them. I find it funny how people always sympathize with GOM over Kespa. GOM was a league funded by Blizzard so that they could try to take over the Brood War scene and switch to SC2 easily when the time came.
They love it when foreigners join korean teams.. I know.. But the information I have so far states they are allowing Korean teams only. Could be misinformation. But that is what is being fed to me.
By the way.. I am not anti-kespa. I actually think such an organisation is necessary to stop attempted monopolisation of e-sports. However, the organisation as it stands is not transparent enough. It also is a threat to everything anyone has worked for in starcraft 2. For instance, they have the power (not saying they would do it) to take every single top level player in current day sc2, and put them in a kespa team. Business is a dog eat dog world, but a growing industry doesn't need that type of action from anyone.
If they can be transparent in their actions. Then I am all for it!
On March 30 2012 14:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
KeSPA has no real leverage over Blizzard or SC2, period. Blizzard threatened to go to court and KeSPA folded once they understood that Blizzard were serious and instead of ignoring Blizzard they started to negotiate with Blizzard where KeSPA eventually accepted the terms that Blizzard gave them. Whatever power KeSPA might have had in SC1 is now gone. I suspect KeSPA can't do shit and has very little power about SC2 and that they now are scared shitless of Blizzard and what they would do if KeSPA did something that would displease them.
So KeSPA folded once they understood that blizzard were serious hm?. Iam pretty sure the court thign stopped once KeSPA OGN etc asked blizzard what they understand under "IP rights" and blizzard couldnt give them any answer.
On March 30 2012 15:23 FXOBoSs wrote: By the way.. I am not anti-kespa. I actually think such an organisation is necessary to stop attempted monopolisation of e-sports. However, the organisation as it stands is not transparent enough. It also is a threat to everything anyone has worked for in starcraft 2. For instance, they have the power (not saying they would do it) to take every single top level player in current day sc2, and put them in a kespa team. Business is a dog eat dog world, but a growing industry doesn't need that type of action from anyone.
If they can be transparent in their actions. Then I am all for it!
agreed. kespa isnt all bad....but they sure as hell can fix A LOT of their shit. it governs the esports community in korea with an iron fist. we could definitely use more transparency.
On March 30 2012 13:54 Plexa wrote: So is this a move prompted by being scared of Kespa?
I guess some level of protection is a good thing though
I doubt it's fear, exactly. More that they want to have a strong and consistent bargaining position when and if negotiations with Kespa do occur. The teams have always known that some sort of representative body will probably be needed at some point. Kespa's interest has simply prompted them to get on with it.
On March 30 2012 14:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
KeSPA has no real leverage over Blizzard or SC2, period. Blizzard threatened to go to court and KeSPA folded once they understood that Blizzard were serious and instead of ignoring Blizzard they started to negotiate with Blizzard where KeSPA eventually accepted the terms that Blizzard gave them. Whatever power KeSPA might have had in SC1 is now gone. I suspect KeSPA can't do shit and has very little power about SC2 and that they now are scared shitless of Blizzard and what they would do if KeSPA did something that would displease them.
So KeSPA folded once they understood that blizzard were serious hm?. Iam pretty sure the court thign stopped once KeSPA OGN etc asked blizzard what they understand under "IP rights" and blizzard couldnt give them any answer.
No, they met behind closed doors and soon after you saw Blizzard's logo put up around the OGN studio. That's when the court thing stopped, beyond that and what happened in their negotiations we'll probably never know.
Hmmm, missionstatement seems too broad, while at the same time saying nothing. Didn't think that was possible^^ Hopefully something good comes out of this.
My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
On March 30 2012 14:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
KeSPA has no real leverage over Blizzard or SC2, period. Blizzard threatened to go to court and KeSPA folded once they understood that Blizzard were serious and instead of ignoring Blizzard they started to negotiate with Blizzard where KeSPA eventually accepted the terms that Blizzard gave them. Whatever power KeSPA might have had in SC1 is now gone. I suspect KeSPA can't do shit and has very little power about SC2 and that they now are scared shitless of Blizzard and what they would do if KeSPA did something that would displease them.
So KeSPA folded once they understood that blizzard were serious hm?. Iam pretty sure the court thign stopped once KeSPA OGN etc asked blizzard what they understand under "IP rights" and blizzard couldnt give them any answer.
No, they met behind closed doors and soon after you saw Blizzard's logo put up around the OGN studio. That's when the court thing stopped, beyond that and what happened in their negotiations we'll probably never know.
KeSPA asked them what they understand for "IP Rights". blizzard couldnt answer them the court pretty much ended and they met behind closed doors.
On March 30 2012 15:09 OrD_SC2 wrote: This is an interesting step in Starcraft's journey. I feel compelled to share some thoughts.
When do we hear from Kespa?
Why does Blizzard get to create a situation like this and not answer to fans about it [I know they made the game, but you understand my point] Blizzard has begun an effort to place themselves in a regulatory capacity for competitive Starcraft2. Are Blizzard's negotiations with Kespa necessary because GOM's control is currently too powerful for Blizzard to exert "proper" influence on the Starcraft2 scene?
I'm excited to see a response from Gom's teams in the creation of this federation. What's fascinating is that within hours this thread has posts from team CEO's and similar, clearly this is a fulcrum moment.
Is it possible to emulate the most popular sport in the world [futbol/soccer] by internationalizing teams and organizations - creating player unions, franchise teams, multiple leagues, and International play? The marketing possibilities from that formula are huge, and I want to help make it happen.
Absolutely silly, that first part. Blizzard, as the Intellectual Property owner, is fully capable of shutting down any event, organization, or even player, that they want to - it's part of the standard EULA in nearly all software. All that is required is for Rob Pimpson to say "No." and get backed up by Browder. KeSPA already discovered this the hard way, once. To draw an analogy, look up the ruckus between "The Camarilla" (a fan organization) and White-Wolf Publishing (owner/publisher of a game). The short story is, The Cam sued WW, lost, and now WW owns the Cam lock stock and barrel. IP holders generally will do well in this way.
As for KeSPA vs. Gom + this new Federation... why couldn't it be more like the NFL/AFL relationship with the Federation subbing in as Team/Player organizations? I don't think the Federation is really "anti"KeSPA - it's more of a unified front saying "Look, we've been here and built what you're entering into; we want to ensure that our interests are at the least heard."
Come to think of it, that seems like what you are saying with the football (real) analogy you're making. Whereas I said the same thing with football (US) terms. In any case, never worry about the "influence" Blizzard has - they can (if they choose) do whatever they want.
On March 30 2012 15:46 Pleiades wrote: My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
Yeah. Those rules need to go if SC2 is going to grow.
Btw, is the OGN LoL competition sanctioned by KeSPA or is it just run by OGN and their partners?
Coz if they're willing to start a tournament to accommodate non KeSPA pro-teams, they very likely might do the same for SC2. Even if they're not the ones sanctioning it, OGN LoL could set a precedent for them to open up.
cool, so E-sports federation is like a moat around our SC2 Castle filled with deadly team-coach sharks to snatch any shady kespa invaders that might try to take advantage of our precious sc2 teams?? sweet!
No really, it's cool that the teams despite their competitiveness throughout the GSL can band together in order to ensure SC2 doesn't become dominated by a new tyrant that kespa could try to be in SC2.
Tbh, I think this federation would accomplish nothing - this is because they have no power and only limited influence. With Kespa, they definitely had power.
On March 30 2012 15:46 Pleiades wrote: My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
Yeah fuck that not every random guy can roll in and play the tournaments. fuck that they first have 2 proof that they are good enough right? srsly? stupid rules and u say progaming license?
If they get backed up by Blizzard, this would make the "move" much stronger. I for one fully agree with this. It's the right thing to do considering......let's say KeSPA's history....and Blizzard should join them in this. They should also protect the values that helped grow this game to what it's now!
I would personally like to see more and more teams to join this "uninon". I can't help but feel a bit scared because of this news. Seems like a huge war is coming
On March 30 2012 15:46 Pleiades wrote: My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
Yeah fuck that not every random guy can roll in and play the tournaments. fuck that they first have 2 proof that they are good enough right? srsly? stupid rules and u say progaming license?
A license is stupid, it's a barrier to entry, and nothing more. Anyone with a brain can sell real estate, but in the US you have to get a license to be 'qualified,' For some things it makes sense, but for playing video games...? It's just silly and a way to maintain control.
On March 30 2012 15:46 Pleiades wrote: My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
Yeah fuck that not every random guy can roll in and play the tournaments. fuck that they first have 2 proof that they are good enough right? srsly? stupid rules and u say progaming license?
Isn't that what qualifiers are for? Imagine having to wait two more years for Boxer to come back.
This is probably good. I'm hoping regardless of what happens that we might someday have a similar situation with OSL / GSL that we had in BW with OSL / MSL.
On March 30 2012 14:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
KeSPA has no real leverage over Blizzard or SC2, period. Blizzard threatened to go to court and KeSPA folded once they understood that Blizzard were serious and instead of ignoring Blizzard they started to negotiate with Blizzard where KeSPA eventually accepted the terms that Blizzard gave them. Whatever power KeSPA might have had in SC1 is now gone. I suspect KeSPA can't do shit and has very little power about SC2 and that they now are scared shitless of Blizzard and what they would do if KeSPA did something that would displease them.
So KeSPA folded once they understood that blizzard were serious hm?. Iam pretty sure the court thign stopped once KeSPA OGN etc asked blizzard what they understand under "IP rights" and blizzard couldnt give them any answer.
No, they met behind closed doors and soon after you saw Blizzard's logo put up around the OGN studio. That's when the court thing stopped, beyond that and what happened in their negotiations we'll probably never know.
KeSPA asked them what they understand for "IP Rights". blizzard couldnt answer them the court pretty much ended and they met behind closed doors.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223866 KeSPA recognized their IP rights in the end and signed a licensing deal. Feel free to hit up this thread for a detailed history of the whole thing (more specifically the 1st, 2nd and 3rd court sessions) but spreading around the idea that Blizzard somehow dropped the lawsuit because they couldn't explain that Starcraft was it's IP is misinformation. The case was still very much active but they came to terms before the 4th session.
Too early to be an april fools joke, yet the announcement doesn't actually say anything at all about the organization. Seems to be just a bunch of korean teams joining up, great that at least Slayers isn't a part of it, I smell a huge fail incoming.
On March 30 2012 15:46 Pleiades wrote: My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
Yeah fuck that not every random guy can roll in and play the tournaments. fuck that they first have 2 proof that they are good enough right? srsly? stupid rules and u say progaming license?
A license is stupid, it's a barrier to entry, and nothing more. Anyone with a brain can sell real estate, but in the US you have to get a license to be 'qualified,' For some things it makes sense, but for playing video games...? It's just silly and a way to maintain control.
no shit Teams have control over their players. woho. and its not a video game anymore... its a job for them.
you win courage get your license and most likely get picked up by a Team. how else should the teams look for talents? just look at Bnet or some shit?
On March 30 2012 14:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Doesn't this boil down to how KeSPA plans to potentially integrate SC2 into its line-up. By that I mean, if they intend to function regardless of the last 2-ish years, I would think GOM and Blizz would continue to give them a hard time, or at least sort of quarantine thier efforts. Blizzard has a distinct idea of the global esport-type thing they want, so I would think even if KeSPA would be amazing for the Korean scene, if it rattles the work done thus far in foreignlandia, they would provide a resistance to it.
I really don't think KeSPA is in a place to call any shots atm. Perhaps in the past they could leverage massive sponsorship relationships and infrastructure, but sponsorship has become a bit of an issue and a number of recent bumps has kind of impacted their structure a bit.
Outside Korea, they really have no leverage other than perhaps BW-fans who have respect for players and teams over the years, and inside Korea they are not in the prime so to speak.
KeSPA has no real leverage over Blizzard or SC2, period. Blizzard threatened to go to court and KeSPA folded once they understood that Blizzard were serious and instead of ignoring Blizzard they started to negotiate with Blizzard where KeSPA eventually accepted the terms that Blizzard gave them. Whatever power KeSPA might have had in SC1 is now gone. I suspect KeSPA can't do shit and has very little power about SC2 and that they now are scared shitless of Blizzard and what they would do if KeSPA did something that would displease them.
So KeSPA folded once they understood that blizzard were serious hm?. Iam pretty sure the court thign stopped once KeSPA OGN etc asked blizzard what they understand under "IP rights" and blizzard couldnt give them any answer.
No, they met behind closed doors and soon after you saw Blizzard's logo put up around the OGN studio. That's when the court thing stopped, beyond that and what happened in their negotiations we'll probably never know.
KeSPA asked them what they understand for "IP Rights". blizzard couldnt answer them the court pretty much ended and they met behind closed doors.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223866 KeSPA recognized their IP rights in the end and signed a licensing deal. Feel free to hit up this thread for a detailed history of the whole thing (more specifically the 1st, 2nd and 3rd court sessions) but spreading around the idea that Blizzard somehow dropped the lawsuit because they couldn't explain that Starcraft was it's IP is misinformation. The case was still very much active but they came to terms before the 4th session.
Yeah well that they dropped the lawsuit was wrong sorry for that
obviously current SC2 teams feel threatened by Kespa, and they need to join forces to not get squashed. Well good luck with that, Kespa likes things their own way.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Why did SlayerS choose not be be involved?
When has slayers ever been involved with other teams? If you look throughout history, they have always done their own thing.
"history" ^^
I hope it works out and some weight on the other side of the scale (KeSPA being on one side) might be good to balance out the power within the korean scene. Best of Luck to everyone.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
Kespa = biggest South Korean corporations. Samsung, South Korea Telecom, KT, etc.
now, do you think you can tell these big corporations what should be correct way to handle the integration of sc2 into their existing leagues?. is like an ant trying to negotiate with a giant, you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your teams.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed.
KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit".
KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea.
Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP.
After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations.
The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not.
This seems like a necessary step to protect the very heavy investment made by all current teams. Everything could go totally smoothly and all this be completly pointless - but always always always protect your investment.
I hope that all foreign teams join. I feel like whether we acknolwedge it or not, all of the current teams (the scene in its entirity, really) are on the same side. For the amount of money KeSPA has invested/stands to make in esports in general, it would require a relatively small investment on their part to secure some very powerful assets. If players (progamers seeking better contracts) or teams (Slayers) act unilaterally the easier it will be for KeSPA to gain leverage. We don't want to be in a position where they become the 'haves' and we are the 'have nots' - then you get teams breaking rank and lining up to play ball. A complete paradigm shift like that could devastate esports - and set precedents and implications which ring far beyond Starcraft.
This would be doubly true if the competition became agressive. For example, players not being permitted to compete between both the pro league and the GSL. This isn't unfathomable, UFC did it to shut down and annex both pride and strike force(competing leagues), and I would argue Dana White's stubborn commitment to that policy benefited him greatly in the rise of dominance of the UFC. All of this could be very detrimental to the healthy growth we, as both a community and an industry, have been experiencing. Remember how professional boxing died. We think it's impressive that MC has made over 200k, Tyson got paid 30M USD a fight - the point is no matter how far we've come and how big we think we've gotten it's never past the point of throwing it all away for want of a 'better deal'. The sad truth is, if KeSPA comes out guns blazing this e-sports federation is going to have to go into this with nothing less than the will to pull the plug on everything we've accomplished (ie, the globalization of competitive SC2). In industries with huge prospective growth it is an eat or be eaten mentality.
On March 30 2012 15:00 _Khandi_ wrote: I pray to the gods at be that this keeps Kespa in check... I would hate to see their tyranny ruin our amazing community. A day where someone can't say "gl hf =D" in a tournament is one in which I don't wanna see.
Yeah god forbid some professionalism! I bet it would look real good on TV for the "outside world" and sponsors if someone would sit and chat all game like HuK did vs HerO on metalopolis some MLG last year. Is it really that big of a deal if you couldn't say "gl hf" when the game have started? You do it in the lobby chat already anyway.
On March 30 2012 15:46 Pleiades wrote: My whole feeling on this is that they don't want stupid KeSPA rules like you need a progaming license or if you're retired, you cannot come back until three years have passed since you have amateur status during that time.
Yeah fuck that not every random guy can roll in and play the tournaments. fuck that they first have 2 proof that they are good enough right? srsly? stupid rules and u say progaming license?
A license is stupid, it's a barrier to entry, and nothing more. Anyone with a brain can sell real estate, but in the US you have to get a license to be 'qualified,' For some things it makes sense, but for playing video games...? It's just silly and a way to maintain control.
A license can be rough to get but at the same time I like the concept. You don't need a license to play video games, you can do it when you want where you want. The license is to play video games _professionally_ in KeSPA leagues and to earn money by doing so. Just like you have to get a license for being a pro in sports. It is also a good way for up and comers to get a pro team and it's a good way for teams to get good talent. And it's a good way to keep the reality in check for people who want to become progamer. You play courage and you see what you go for. If you win, then you can stop your studies/quit job and go for it because you have guaranteed salary, team, housing and food on the table.
It speaks volumes about KeSPA that the teams feel the need to unify upon their arrival in the Starcraft 2 scene. The Korean e-sports scene is wary of the Korean e-sports association, what a strange family.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
Kespa = biggest South Korean corporations. Samsung, South Korea Telecom, KT, etc.
now, do you think you can tell these big corporations what should be correct way to handle the integration of sc2 into their existing leagues?. is like an ant trying to negotiate with a giant, you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
And if foreign teams join the federation they have backing from Razer, Intel, Monster, Sound Blaster, Twitch, Steelseries, and Kingston to name a few. Tournament organizers like MLG, Dreamhack, and IEM also have a stake in this as if Kespa tries to cockblock korean players from competing in foreign tournaments it affects them.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
Kespa = biggest South Korean corporations. Samsung, South Korea Telecom, KT, etc.
now, do you think you can tell these big corporations what should be correct way to handle the integration of sc2 into their existing leagues?. is like an ant trying to negotiate with a giant, you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
And if foreign teams join the federation they have backing from Razer, Intel, Monster, Sound Blaster, Twitch, Steelseries, and Kingston to name a few. Tournament organizers like MLG, Dreamhack, and IEM also have a stake in this as if Kespa tries to cockblock korean players from competing in foreign tournaments it affects them.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
Kespa = biggest South Korean corporations. Samsung, South Korea Telecom, KT, etc.
now, do you think you can tell these big corporations what should be correct way to handle the integration of sc2 into their existing leagues?. is like an ant trying to negotiate with a giant, you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
And if foreign teams join the federation they have backing from Razer, Intel, Monster, Sound Blaster, Twitch, Steelseries, and Kingston to name a few. Tournament organizers like MLG, Dreamhack, and IEM also have a stake in this as if Kespa tries to cockblock korean players from competing in foreign tournaments it affects them.
wtf are u talking about?
Maybe i'm way of but isn't this about Kespa not getting complete dominance over SC2 in korea with contracts that dictate what teams and players can do? If this new federation gets foreign team participation they're not a small ant anymore and can probably keep from just getting assimilated into kespa with their rules. Maybe i'm just way off on what Kespa is and does?
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed.
KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit".
KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea.
Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP.
After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations.
The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not.
Thats only one side of the story, the other side of the story is they succeded in their primary task, which was to spread Esports in Korea. Which also contributed blizzard by Starcraft box sells (around 5 millions in Korea only). Did Kespa force players not to attend GOM ? I tought it was because of tight schedule (MSL OSL Proleague + minor events) and the decision was on hands of teams.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
Kespa = biggest South Korean corporations. Samsung, South Korea Telecom, KT, etc.
now, do you think you can tell these big corporations what should be correct way to handle the integration of sc2 into their existing leagues?. is like an ant trying to negotiate with a giant, you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
And if foreign teams join the federation they have backing from Razer, Intel, Monster, Sound Blaster, Twitch, Steelseries, and Kingston to name a few. Tournament organizers like MLG, Dreamhack, and IEM also have a stake in this as if Kespa tries to cockblock korean players from competing in foreign tournaments it affects them.
wtf are u talking about?
Maybe i'm way of but isn't this about Kespa not getting complete dominance over SC2 in korea with contracts that dictate what teams and players can do? If this new federation gets foreign team participation they're not a small ant anymore and can probably keep from just getting assimilated into kespa with their rules. Maybe i'm just way off on what Kespa is and does?
I that is what I was thinking, if all the foreign teams get in on this, then hopefully kespa will not be able to muscle people around.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
Kespa = biggest South Korean corporations. Samsung, South Korea Telecom, KT, etc.
now, do you think you can tell these big corporations what should be correct way to handle the integration of sc2 into their existing leagues?. is like an ant trying to negotiate with a giant, you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
And if foreign teams join the federation they have backing from Razer, Intel, Monster, Sound Blaster, Twitch, Steelseries, and Kingston to name a few. Tournament organizers like MLG, Dreamhack, and IEM also have a stake in this as if Kespa tries to cockblock korean players from competing in foreign tournaments it affects them.
wtf are u talking about?
Maybe i'm way of but isn't this about Kespa not getting complete dominance over SC2 in korea with contracts that dictate what teams and players can do? If this new federation gets foreign team participation they're not a small ant anymore and can probably keep from just getting assimilated into kespa with their rules. Maybe i'm just way off on what Kespa is and does?
I that is what I was thinking, if all the foreign teams get in on this, then hopefully kespa will not be able to muscle people around.
Not really its up to blizzard and how many rights they give to kespa, without OGN (which is Kespa's) you dont exist in Korea. SC2 does not exist, whats more important for Blizzard would you ask.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed.
KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit".
KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea.
Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP.
After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations.
The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not.
Source please because I disagree with a lot of what was written here. To the best of my knowledge:
The teams are represented on the board of KeSPA, specifically, each team has a representative. Last I remember, the coach of SKT was the president of KeSPA.
KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
KeSPA was very much just a governing body until 2007. Up until then its influence extended to creating rulesets for the progaming scene. This included the establishment of progamer licensees and the listing of official tournament results on their page. In particular, it had a role in managing the joint proleague between OGN and MBC.
KeSPA was first really put into a negative light in 2007 when it asserted its rights over the broadcast of proleague and sold the rights to IEG (then sponsoring the team eSTRO and formerly ran sc4all). MBC/OGN were outraged at this and many fans hated KeSPA as a result. The fiasco shook the scene to its core, but eventually MBC/OGN agreed to pay broadcast fees to IEG and proleague went on.
KeSPA often comes under the spotlight when a rule is enforced that causes an unpopular result. Rules that cause problems are often discussed afterwards and rectified if necessary. I.e. the Backho ziziyO incident which said gave way to the rule that the only official form of surrender was gg.
KeSPA has not stop players from receiving salaries; those are negotiated between teams and players which KeSPA has no influence over. However, KeSPA will assist teams to find new sponsors (or support them if they don't have them, i.e. team 8) and introduced the free agency system for players.
KeSPA has not limited the participation of foreigners in korean leagues. The lack of participation was a result of foreigners sucking. Indeed, KeSPA went as far as to establish a bypass rule for teams which allowed them give 2 players per year a progaming license without passing through courage. This was brought into effect when SKT had PJ and LX (two chinese players) and is often seen as giving SKT a way to give them progamer status. Idra earned his progamer status through this system as well.
KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
I'm pretty sure that any sport thrives of their top players popularity. Players like DRG, Nestea, and MVP are really popular players for the SC2 crowd. I'm sure many SC2 fans don't even know who Jaedong is, regardless of how horrible some BW fans think that is.
Getting into SC2 tournaments without having the well known top SC2 players there WILL hamper their progress, regardless of how much some want to watch ex-BW players.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
I'm pretty sure that any sport thrives of their top players popularity. Players like DRG, Nestea, and MVP are really popular players for the SC2 crowd. I'm sure many SC2 fans don't even know who Jaedong is, regardless of how horrible some BW fans think that is.
Getting into SC2 tournaments without having the well known top SC2 players there WILL hamper their progress, regardless of how much some want to watch ex-BW players.
If the well being of a league hinges on the popularity of a select group of individuals, then I fear for the sport itself.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
I'm pretty sure that any sport thrives of their top players popularity. Players like DRG, Nestea, and MVP are really popular players for the SC2 crowd. I'm sure many SC2 fans don't even know who Jaedong is, regardless of how horrible some BW fans think that is.
Getting into SC2 tournaments without having the well known top SC2 players there WILL hamper their progress, regardless of how much some want to watch ex-BW players.
If the well being of a league hinges on the popularity of a select group of individuals, then I fear for the sport itself.
What happened to skill and quality of play?
If BW lost their top 5-10 players i'm pretty sure they'd take a huge hit too. No esport is immune to this as they're all pretty fragile.
You need the top SC2 players to compete with your ex-BW players to show who's the best though. The level of play will forever be discussed but never solved if the SC2 pros don't participate.
Good post by plexa, this random accusation of kespa being an overzealous organization that is running unchecked is getting too much . Thanks for laying down the facts and stating the truth.
This is some great news, hopefully this newly formed federation and KeSPA gets along well. Would be a shame if for some reason KeSPA wouldn't let any of the current players play in their leagues or if the Federation would have to boycott KeSPA tournaments.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
I'm pretty sure that any sport thrives of their top players popularity. Players like DRG, Nestea, and MVP are really popular players for the SC2 crowd. I'm sure many SC2 fans don't even know who Jaedong is, regardless of how horrible some BW fans think that is.
Getting into SC2 tournaments without having the well known top SC2 players there WILL hamper their progress, regardless of how much some want to watch ex-BW players.
If the well being of a league hinges on the popularity of a select group of individuals, then I fear for the sport itself.
What happened to skill and quality of play?
If BW lost their top 5-10 players i'm pretty sure they'd take a huge hit too. No esport is immune to this as they're all pretty fragile.
You need the top SC2 players to compete with your ex-BW players to show who's the best though. The level of play will forever be discussed but never solved if the SC2 pros don't participate.
I agree wholeheartedly.
The original statement of whether or not a league survives based on a select group of popular players was my disagreement.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
I'm pretty sure that any sport thrives of their top players popularity. Players like DRG, Nestea, and MVP are really popular players for the SC2 crowd. I'm sure many SC2 fans don't even know who Jaedong is, regardless of how horrible some BW fans think that is.
Getting into SC2 tournaments without having the well known top SC2 players there WILL hamper their progress, regardless of how much some want to watch ex-BW players.
If the well being of a league hinges on the popularity of a select group of individuals, then I fear for the sport itself.
What happened to skill and quality of play?
If BW lost their top 5-10 players i'm pretty sure they'd take a huge hit too. No esport is immune to this as they're all pretty fragile.
You need the top SC2 players to compete with your ex-BW players to show who's the best though. The level of play will forever be discussed but never solved if the SC2 pros don't participate.
I agree wholeheartedly.
The original statement of whether or not a league survives based on a select group of popular players was my disagreement.
The guy you quoted said good luck running a tournament without top SC2 pros. Nowhere did he say that it was doomed to fail totally, just that it won't be as popular nor as good as it could have been.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
I read what you typed and took it the way it was typed. Not only were you an ass to that guy for no reason, but you implied that you watching a league with only BW players meant that the majority of others would. If you didn't mean that then you should be more careful with how you word your sentences.
But yes I am happy that everyone seems to want them to work together If kespa chose not to I think Gom could really get some serious internet support behind them. If reddit pitchforks can hammer Orb or whatever drama is happening that hard, imagine what they could do to them
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
You do realize that none of the people you just cited are foreigners right?
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
You do realize that none of the people you just cited are foreigners right?
He meant the fans. We have way more fans outside of korea than inside.
KESPA and Korea OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again. Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations. Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work? We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course). As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday. Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
You do realize that none of the people you just cited are foreigners right?
He meant the fans. We have way more fans outside of korea than inside.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed.
KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit".
KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea.
Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP.
After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations.
The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not.
Source please because I disagree with a lot of what was written here. To the best of my knowledge:
The teams are represented on the board of KeSPA, specifically, each team has a representative. Last I remember, the coach of SKT was the president of KeSPA.
KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
KeSPA was very much just a governing body until 2007. Up until then its influence extended to creating rulesets for the progaming scene. This included the establishment of progamer licensees and the listing of official tournament results on their page. In particular, it had a role in managing the joint proleague between OGN and MBC.
KeSPA was first really put into a negative light in 2007 when it asserted its rights over the broadcast of proleague and sold the rights to IEG (then sponsoring the team eSTRO and formerly ran sc4all). MBC/OGN were outraged at this and many fans hated KeSPA as a result. The fiasco shook the scene to its core, but eventually MBC/OGN agreed to pay broadcast fees to IEG and proleague went on.
KeSPA often comes under the spotlight when a rule is enforced that causes an unpopular result. Rules that cause problems are often discussed afterwards and rectified if necessary. I.e. the Backho ziziyO incident which said gave way to the rule that the only official form of surrender was gg.
KeSPA has not stop players from receiving salaries; those are negotiated between teams and players which KeSPA has no influence over. However, KeSPA will assist teams to find new sponsors (or support them if they don't have them, i.e. team 8) and introduced the free agency system for players.
KeSPA has not limited the participation of foreigners in korean leagues. The lack of participation was a result of foreigners sucking. Indeed, KeSPA went as far as to establish a bypass rule for teams which allowed them give 2 players per year a progaming license without passing through courage. This was brought into effect when SKT had PJ and LX (two chinese players) and is often seen as giving SKT a way to give them progamer status. Idra earned his progamer status through this system as well.
KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
At least to your last point I can give you a quote from John aka Junkka (Translater of GSL):"... They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic ..." Which tells quite the opposite to what you said. Maybe you lack the insight of the korean scene, or maybe he is biased, but it just fits into other things, done and enforced by KeSPA. The most thing that bothers me about KeSPA besides their harsch enforcing of rules, are pro licenses. Who needs that bullshit? If someone has the the skill and the passion to become pro gamer, he should be allowed to be taken under contract by a team. if they want all pro players to be registered, fine, then at least give those licenses out to everyone. We don't need additional blockades, that hinder upcoming talents.
I personally will boycott all KeSPA run tournaments if they don't find an acceptable agreement with the current SC2 teams, and I hope most people will do so too, because if this organisation goes on with their doing, they are a big thread to the worldwilde growth of esport.
KESPA and Korea OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again. Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations. Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work? We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course). As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday. Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
<3 FXOBoSs
Some good insights in there.
edit: sniped >_<
Hmmm I hope FXOBoss is able to tell Kespa/Whoever needs to be told how important the foreign scene is to the future of SC2. I doubt my interest would be nearly as high without people like Huk fighting it out in tournaments. The only time I will guaranteed stay up to watch GSL at night is when he plays or a couple other of my favorites play(Idra/Jinro/Maybe Naniwa this GSL)
Ignoring such a huge viewer base's needs would as he said limit and perhaps kill all growth for SC2 :/ Killing the business model that could emerge.
His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible.
KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed.
KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit".
KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea.
Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP.
After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations.
The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not.
Source please because I disagree with a lot of what was written here. To the best of my knowledge:
The teams are represented on the board of KeSPA, specifically, each team has a representative. Last I remember, the coach of SKT was the president of KeSPA.
KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
KeSPA was very much just a governing body until 2007. Up until then its influence extended to creating rulesets for the progaming scene. This included the establishment of progamer licensees and the listing of official tournament results on their page. In particular, it had a role in managing the joint proleague between OGN and MBC.
KeSPA was first really put into a negative light in 2007 when it asserted its rights over the broadcast of proleague and sold the rights to IEG (then sponsoring the team eSTRO and formerly ran sc4all). MBC/OGN were outraged at this and many fans hated KeSPA as a result. The fiasco shook the scene to its core, but eventually MBC/OGN agreed to pay broadcast fees to IEG and proleague went on.
KeSPA often comes under the spotlight when a rule is enforced that causes an unpopular result. Rules that cause problems are often discussed afterwards and rectified if necessary. I.e. the Backho ziziyO incident which said gave way to the rule that the only official form of surrender was gg.
KeSPA has not stop players from receiving salaries; those are negotiated between teams and players which KeSPA has no influence over. However, KeSPA will assist teams to find new sponsors (or support them if they don't have them, i.e. team 8) and introduced the free agency system for players.
KeSPA has not limited the participation of foreigners in korean leagues. The lack of participation was a result of foreigners sucking. Indeed, KeSPA went as far as to establish a bypass rule for teams which allowed them give 2 players per year a progaming license without passing through courage. This was brought into effect when SKT had PJ and LX (two chinese players) and is often seen as giving SKT a way to give them progamer status. Idra earned his progamer status through this system as well.
KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
At least to your last point I can give you a quote from John aka Junkka (Translater of GSL):"... They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic ..." Which tells quite the opposite to what you said. Maybe you lack the insight of the korean scene, or maybe he is biased, but it just fits into other things, done and enforced by KeSPA. The most thing that bothers me about KeSPA besides their harsch enforcing of rules, are pro licenses. Who needs that bullshit? If someone has the the skill and the passion to become pro gamer, he should be allowed to be taken under contract by a team. if they want all pro players to be registered, fine, then at least give those licenses out to everyone. We don't need additional blockades, that hinder upcoming talents.
I personally will boycott all KeSPA run tournaments if they don't find an acceptable agreement with the current SC2 teams, and I hope most people will do so too, because if this organisation goes on with their doing, they are a big thread to the worldwilde growth of esport.
The teams can give such a player a license. so i dont see whats the problem?
Eh, Kespa.... Well, I doubt they even CAN have such a huge influence over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. With so many high profile foreign events the korean players don't necessarily have to play in korea to show how good they are and earn money. And we've already seen quite a few players join foreign teams too! And I can't imagine how kespa could make it impossible to train in korea... I mean, they can just shut down team houses that aren't part of their "thing", right?
I hope this organization can do what they've set out to do, and that kespa won't try screw everyone^^
KESPA and Korea OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again. Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations. Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work? We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course). As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday. Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
<3 FXOBoSs
Some good insights in there.
edit: sniped >_<
Hmmm I hope FXOBoss is able to tell Kespa/Whoever needs to be told how important the foreign scene is to the future of SC2. I doubt my interest would be nearly as high without people like Huk fighting it out in tournaments. The only time I will guaranteed stay up to watch GSL at night is when he plays or a couple other of my favorites play(Idra/Jinro/Maybe Naniwa this GSL)
Ignoring such a huge viewer base's needs would as he said limit and perhaps kill all growth for SC2 :/ Killing the business model that could emerge.
I dno about the viewer base situation. Honestly, I think the korean players/events get a bucket load more consistent viewers than other tournaments and most of the viewership is outside of Korea. At least for sc2. Everyone wants what is best for everyone, other than business. Of course I aim to look after my business, but of course, I am not exactly a Korean business. I want sc2 to be viable everywhere, because if that occurs, theres more money for business.
Actually the condition of sc2 today is not a great one. There is a heavy tilt in funding and that tends not to work out well in the long run. The top 16's are dominated by people from 1 part of the world, which is a clear indicator that the rest of the world minus a select few, are doing it wrong. I would like the US and major countries in europe to pick up the korean mentality for practice and professionalism, and compete directly with koreans. Hoping that one day a global starcraft league (gsl) can be 50/50 korean foreign. Or even less koreans. Not because I don't like koreans but because I love competition.
At the moment you would have an 90% chance of winning a bet that a korean will win a major event. The odds are heavily in their favour and for sc2 to be global that has to change. Which means its not the koreans who need to change their mindset, its the foreigners.
I do hope everything works out well so that the global exposure explodes. But things have to change in many different ways for sc2 for the foreign scene to a truly viable one.
So many people writing in this thread without having the slightest clue about what they're actually are saying... So much bias especially from all the people that never followed bw and are basing their opinion on >3rd hand information.
All I want to say is that I'm personally WAY more afraid of Blizzard fucking everything up than KeSPA. I also find it hilarious that people are saying "KeSPA is only in it for the money!!!", well last time i checked Blizzard isn't exactly a fucking charity organization either so start thinking!
Hmmm, so if what FXOBoSs is saying turns out to be accurate, then there is a good chance that some current SC2 teams may participate in the SC2 Proleague.
This might also mean that it may be unlikely that KeSPA will go ahead with the weird SC2/BW hybrid format that has been floating around as rumors since it would be impossible for SC2 teams to compete in BW as well as SC2. Unless, however, the SC2 Proleague comes after the weird, transitional SC2/BW hybrid Proleague.
Actually, I don't know what to believe anymore since there is a lot of conflicting information and rumors floating around.
On March 30 2012 13:22 nokz88 wrote: The only thing KeSPA has is the new incoming OnGameNet SC2 league, and the current BW teams with players with no clue how to play SC2 properly at a high level.
I'm pretty sure BW pro players can play SC2 at a high level. For example, fOrGG (oGsFin) was grandmaster as an sc2 amateur.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
I dont follow other games that much, does this include new, current games like LoL, etc.? If so, how does KeSPA and their leagues interact with the worldwide scenes (f.e. in LoL) ?
KESPA and Korea OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again. Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations. Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work? We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course). As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday. Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
<3 FXOBoSs
Some good insights in there.
edit: sniped >_<
Hmmm I hope FXOBoss is able to tell Kespa/Whoever needs to be told how important the foreign scene is to the future of SC2. I doubt my interest would be nearly as high without people like Huk fighting it out in tournaments. The only time I will guaranteed stay up to watch GSL at night is when he plays or a couple other of my favorites play(Idra/Jinro/Maybe Naniwa this GSL)
Ignoring such a huge viewer base's needs would as he said limit and perhaps kill all growth for SC2 :/ Killing the business model that could emerge.
I dno about the viewer base situation. Honestly, I think the korean players/events get a bucket load more consistent viewers than other tournaments and most of the viewership is outside of Korea. At least for sc2. Everyone wants what is best for everyone, other than business. Of course I aim to look after my business, but of course, I am not exactly a Korean business. I want sc2 to be viable everywhere, because if that occurs, theres more money for business.
Actually the condition of sc2 today is not a great one. There is a heavy tilt in funding and that tends not to work out well in the long run. The top 16's are dominated by people from 1 part of the world, which is a clear indicator that the rest of the world minus a select few, are doing it wrong. I would like the US and major countries in europe to pick up the korean mentality for practice and professionalism, and compete directly with koreans. Hoping that one day a global starcraft league (gsl) can be 50/50 korean foreign. Or even less koreans. Not because I don't like koreans but because I love competition.
At the moment you would have an 90% chance of winning a bet that a korean will win a major event. The odds are heavily in their favour and for sc2 to be global that has to change. Which means its not the koreans who need to change their mindset, its the foreigners.
I do hope everything works out well so that the global exposure explodes. But things have to change in many different ways for sc2 for the foreign scene to a truly viable one.
And that is why we are living in a dream, everyone is so butthurt about Kespa but they are not seeing the whole picture, THEY did it, was it luck or not, culture whatever. Now everyone outside of Korea have to pay the price of falling behind, its problem of the global SC community.
It is not a problem of Korea to convert global masses into starcraft its OUR problem and we are paying the price NOW when SC2 is global. This whole thing we discuss now is a farce, i love Korean starcraft but i guess many people here would want to see foreigner SC, people should stop living the dream of foreigner powerhouses in Korea. Kespa being open to foreigners or closed has no meaning to making foreign starcraft strong, foreigners in Korea =/ foreign starcraft.
What makes a sport truly global is that people of all nationalities participate. On the one end, we have full korean roster. SC2 becomes korean only, and i can only see its global popularity decrease. No one has a player from their country they can cheer. A non-asiatic player. An hispanic, indian, australian or whatever player they can identify with. It's just koreans. On the other end (kind of utopic for now) we have people from many countries playing and competing at the highest level, people that previously didn't know the game now cheer for the star of their country, or that they can identify with.
How much F1 popularity was brought to Brazil, for instance, because of the many F1 great racers that brazil produced? same about Germany ? UK ? Italy and the ferrari? Renault from france ? on the few times that USA football (soccer) team did well in the world championship we saw a rise in popularity of the sport there. People that didn't watch it, now watching it with stress and pleasure, cheering for their country. Had F1 only had chinese racers and only raced on china, it couldn't be seen as a global sport, as it is now, and it would be only popular in china.
If sc2 is to succeed as global, then as FXOBoss said, more non-koreans need to play at the highest level, outside of korea, otherwise it will become another BW and eventually die there.
Well good. I was wondering how they were to deal with kespa and bw teams with the switch. Thank goodness they formed an association to try to negotiate and compromise instead of compete. Mainly because, I've seen many say that ogn would eat gom right up.
This is a really really important development, I hope that they will be able to resist a strongarming Kespa. Otherwise the international scene will be shut out again.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
And your evidence for this is the fact that you personally don't care about koreans?
On March 30 2012 19:51 Apolo wrote: What makes a sport truly global is that people of all nationalities participate. On the one end, we have full korean roster. SC2 becomes korean only, and i can only see its global popularity decrease. No one has a player from their country they can cheer. A non-asiatic player. An hispanic, indian, australian or whatever player they can identify with. It's just koreans. On the other end (kind of utopic for now) we have people from many countries playing and competing at the highest level, people that previously didn't know the game now cheer for the star of their country, or that they can identify with.
How much F1 popularity was brought to Brazil, for instance, because of the many F1 great racers that brazil produced? same about Germany ? UK ? Italy and the ferrari? Renault from france ? on the few times that USA football (soccer) team did well in the world championship we saw a rise in popularity of the sport there. People that didn't watch it, now watching it with stress and pleasure, cheering for their country. Had F1 only had chinese racers and only raced on china, it couldn't be seen as a global sport, as it is now, and it would be only popular in china.
If sc2 is to succeed as global, then as FXOBoss said, more non-koreans need to play at the highest level, outside of korea, otherwise it will become another BW and eventually die there.
Every Computer game will eventually die when it is too old to bring new players in. Thats sad but that is how it is. Besides that the publisher has an interest that the a game dies someday because he wants to sell a new one.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
And your evidence for this is the fact that you personally don't care about koreans?
did you read what i wrote or just the first sentence?
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
And your evidence for this is the fact that you personally don't care about koreans?
did you read what i wrote or just the first sentence?
You start with claiming a fact and the rest is just your personal opinion...
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Why did SlayerS choose not be be involved?
SlayerS is like Amex, They always do their own thing, have their own rules and come on a separate processing statement every month. (People who take credit cards for a living knows what I am talking about )
is this panic mode to prevent kespa from taking over too fast? i hope they negotiate a deal that includes both osl/pro league and gsl/gstl with kespa comming to sc2 the next few months will be exciting.
The problem with this organization is the fact that they still have no leverage whatsoever over KeSPA. I don't see any reason why KeSPA can't say "fuck you guys" to this organization and do their own business.
With no LAN in reality almost ALL the power lies with Blizzard not kespa or this new federation. Blizz can just block IP addresses or whatever they want to whomever they want.
On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote: you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams.
"your little teams"..?
these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol.
"Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol."
Is this a joke?
I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up.
uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want.
The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation.
I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
And your evidence for this is the fact that you personally don't care about koreans?
did you read what i wrote or just the first sentence?
You start with claiming a fact and the rest is just your personal opinion...
isnt that the point of a post, suppose to be my own opinion? LOL jesus christ
On March 30 2012 20:22 Djagulingu wrote: The problem with this organization is the fact that they still have no leverage whatsoever over KeSPA. I don't see any reason why KeSPA can't say "fuck you guys" to this organization and do their own business.
Exactly my view as well.
Not saying I hope they do or don't, I just don't see what kind of power this new organization has. Seems somewhat pointless - which only means I don't understand it, because obviously it was formed based on some idea.
If they were smart they would try to get the big foreigners Liquid, mouz, Empire and Complexity join. With the foreign power against them KeSPA could pack its bags.
On March 30 2012 15:50 rasers wrote: KeSPA asked them what they understand for "IP Rights". blizzard couldnt answer them the court pretty much ended and they met behind closed doors.
People keep bringing this up, but real courtrooms aren't like Perry Mason, where you ask a tough question and the whole case falls apart. If a lawyer says "I'm not ready to answer that" it's because they need time to prepare an answer, not that there isn't one. In any case, the parties settled because the judge was pushing them to settle rather than wasting court time, which is a standard practice around the world.
Current Korean Starcraft 2 teams Startale, IM, Prime, MVP, oGs, NSHoseo, FXO, TSL and ZeNEX have formed an organization named "e-Sports Federation". Startale's head coach Won JongWook will be its first president
On March 30 2012 20:22 Djagulingu wrote: The problem with this organization is the fact that they still have no leverage whatsoever over KeSPA. I don't see any reason why KeSPA can't say "fuck you guys" to this organization and do their own business.
Exactly my view as well.
Not saying I hope they do or don't, I just don't see what kind of power this new organization has. Seems somewhat pointless - which only means I don't understand it, because obviously it was formed based on some idea.
The idea being that they want to have some control on how everything will work or they might not participate? Even if there's great BW pros that will switch over to SC2, not having the current top SC2 competition in your tournaments would really hurt.
On March 30 2012 20:29 Aunvilgod wrote: If they were smart they would try to get the big foreigners Liquid, mouz, Empire and Complexity join. With the foreign power against them KeSPA could pack its bags.
Because the Korean teams think foreigners are valuable to them...? Seriously?
On March 30 2012 21:04 ImbaTosS wrote: Because the Korean teams think foreigners are valuable to them...? Seriously?
Foreign participation helps with viewer numbers quite a bit, even when they lose. Why do you think both KESPA and GOM have been so eager to accommodate foreign players in the past? (Though as FXOBoss points out, KESPA did so by providing them a way to join a Korean organization rather than bringing their own in with them.)
Edit: This new federation seem to have made clear foreign organizations are free to join.
On March 30 2012 21:11 Novalisk wrote: Kespa might have the money, but the current SC2 teams have the fanbase, so it's good they banded together.
The only thing the current SC2 teams have are the (probably) better players since all of them play SC2 full time. KeSPA outstrips them in every way. Remember, they're trying to get deals to join KeSPA sanctioned leagues.
Why are people so afraid of Kespa? They have good players sure, but so does GOM and other international tournaments. If Kespa were to completely shun and ignore the other events they for sure will be shooting themselves in the foot.
I have a feeling that if Kespa were to make a play for the Korean SC2 scene they will wait and play nice till they cement themselves in the scene, then go for the killing blow to GOM TV in which case they will retain their power in Korea here after.
Though overall I don't understand how any player would want to work for Kespa, from all the silly stuff I've heard them force players to do, joining their SC2 league seems like the stupidest thing a player could do.
On March 30 2012 21:18 Synboi wrote: Why are people so afraid of Kespa? They have good players sure, but so does GOM and other international tournaments. If Kespa were to completely shun and ignore the other events they for sure will be shooting themselves in the foot.
I have a feeling that if Kespa were to make a play for the Korean SC2 scene they will wait and play nice till they cement themselves in the scene, then go for the killing blow to GOM TV in which case they will retain their power in Korea here after.
Though overall I don't understand how any player would want to work for Kespa, from all the silly stuff I've heard them force players to do, joining their SC2 league seems like the stupidest thing a player could do.
Speculation here.
I think it's cause the number of GSLs in a year isn't increasing any time soon.There isn't too many leagues the med-high ranked Koreans can continually participate in.
And participation in Proleague will be an amazing way to attract sponsors. Just think. Many of the biggest teams pay millions of dollars to get represented in Proleague, and SC2 teams are probably desperate enough to accept any amount of money.
On March 30 2012 21:26 Frail wrote: I hope this gets the Sc2 teams the fair share they deserve for helping this thing to grow.
We'll just have to wait and see
They will.... If they actually have the skill required to enter KeSPA, they will be elegible to PROBABLY win a lot of money and potential sponsors. Also Koreans won't need to fly arround the world to win real $$$. They can just sit in their country and do that. Now isn't that great
- ask KeSPA for an official representative of the Federation inside the Association, and start talks advocating free participation of current SC2 players and teams in the incoming leagues, among other things.
They want an official place to negotiate, so they're requesting that. There isn't anything about wanting to send a representation within KeSPA.
Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
- ask KeSPA for an official representative of the Federation inside the Association, and start talks advocating free participation of current SC2 players and teams in the incoming leagues, among other things.
They want an official place to negotiate, so they're requesting that. There isn't anything about wanting to send a representation within KeSPA.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Rival e-sports associations and rival leagues would probably do the Korean scene well for the time being, and the greater one will swallow the lesser in time.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
What is really shaping SC2 into worldwide esport? For now it is given the novelty status(bw wasnt different in the beginning), lack of infrastructure will bite our asses sooner or later. Current anticipations are highly inflated. Worldwide esport is not holding 70% skill pool which soon will become 90% in 1 place.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
What is really shaping SC2 into worldwide esport? For now it is given the novelty status(bw wasnt different in the beginning), lack of infrastructure will bite our asses sooner or later. Current anticipations are highly inflated. Worldwide esport is not holding 70% skill pool which soon will become 90% in 1 place.
I'm not sure if SC2 will make it either. But the only real truth is that there seem to be a spread out interest that's totally different compared to BW. If SC2 will survive for years like BW or die is hard to tell, but if sponsors want the most out of the game right now they need to cater to the global viewership.
Koreans are dominating the SC2 but still not in the way they did in BW. The thing to focus on is the fact that the fanbase is totally differently spread out for SC2 compared to BW.
As far as a player union goes, this makes a lot more sense than a third party. Glad to see some teams take initiative on the scene they had helped created.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Not true, teams have multiple sponsors but the ones he listed are the sponsors with naming rights to the team.
i.e. for a period of time OGN sparkyz were known as "hite sparkyz" where hite was the naming sponsor. i.e. kraze burger sponsors SKT
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Not true, teams have multiple sponsors but the ones he listed are the sponsors with naming rights to the team.
i.e. for a period of time OGN sparkyz were known as "hite sparkyz" where hite was the naming sponsor. i.e. kraze burger sponsors SKT
Ah, ok. That makes more sense. I guess they might want to approach other more global partners then?
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Not true, teams have multiple sponsors but the ones he listed are the sponsors with naming rights to the team.
i.e. for a period of time OGN sparkyz were known as "hite sparkyz" where hite was the naming sponsor. i.e. kraze burger sponsors SKT
Ah, ok. That makes more sense. I guess they might want to approach other more global partners then?
Yes, they will most likely have to. Pocari Sweat also sponsors SKT, btw.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Not true, teams have multiple sponsors but the ones he listed are the sponsors with naming rights to the team.
i.e. for a period of time OGN sparkyz were known as "hite sparkyz" where hite was the naming sponsor. i.e. kraze burger sponsors SKT
Ah, ok. That makes more sense. I guess they might want to approach other more global partners then?
I know Razer is sponsoring some teams if not all BW teams.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Maybe. It's something we will have to see.
One more thing: Those companies are not so much "local" as they are "Korean." South Korea is tiny compared to Europe and America, after all.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Maybe. It's something we will have to see.
One more thing: Those companies are not so much "local" as they are "Korean." South Korea is tiny compared to Europe and America, after all.
On March 30 2012 13:29 dAPhREAk wrote: so what exactly is the e-sports federation going to do? and what powers will they have? kinda vague all around
looks like they are trying to protect the current sc2 teams and players from anything shady kespa tries to pull
That's what I got from it. I'd like to see something put in place that would prevent BW teams switching over from swiping all the already-good SC2 players with enticing salaries and perks.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Maybe. It's something we will have to see.
One more thing: Those companies are not so much "local" as they are "Korean." South Korea is tiny compared to Europe and America, after all.
I guess that having a global equivalent to the BW scene would require worldwide companies as sponsors, like Microsoft, AT&T, Citygroup, etc to sponsor international teams. Don't see that happening though, at least without a stable scene.
sc2 is so small that it needs a governing body that encapsulates all the teams, I feel this segregation is bad for the scene in terms of its progression into a mainstream sport, we shouldn't be competing amongst ourselves but with established sports
Fnatic should be in this organisation IMO, their SC2 lineup is based in Korea, they have a teamhouse there, they're managers are Koreans (Hwanni, SpS and the one who scouts the talent for the academy), and they want to participate in the korean teamleagues.
Although Fnatic already has pretty good relations with OGN (since their LoL team was invited to their LoL league), maybe they already been in contact with OGN.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Maybe. It's something we will have to see.
One more thing: Those companies are not so much "local" as they are "Korean." South Korea is tiny compared to Europe and America, after all.
Yeah i meant local as in "only in SK".
I have a Samsung monitor =/
We were talking about the majority of local sponsors mentioned previously.
On March 30 2012 22:11 mememolly wrote: sc2 is so small that it needs a governing body that encapsulates all the teams, I feel this segregation is bad for the scene in terms of its progression into a mainstream sport, we shouldn't be competing amongst ourselves but with established sports
We are not competeting, its Korea competing with Korea Their "density" beats our "quantity" tenfold.
I feel like some of the international teams are thrown under the bus and some of them have multiple Koreans in the GSL. Look at TL, EG and fnatic wouldn't they like to have a say in the organization. What about the new coming teams in Korea that have team houses? I wonder how teams teams are holding up.
I just hope this would not mean they would have a say in which tournaments players can or cannot participate in (I'm referring to NASL season 2, when SC2con didn't allow it's players to participate).
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Why does local sponsoring shows a lack of legitimacy. I think its the opposite. When local companies that don't sell gaming related products are willing to sponsor a team thats a good sign. If we look at traditional sports that happens all the time.
And to all the concerns about the inclusion of foreigners. If we look at OGNs new Lol league we can see two foreign teams invited and a good english stream. So i think a OGN SC2 league would do the same.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Why does local sponsoring shows a lack of legitimacy. I think its the opposite. When local companies that don't sell gaming related products are willing to sponsor a team thats a good sign. If we look at traditional sports that happens all the time.
And to all the concerns about the inclusion of foreigners. If we look at OGNs new Lol league we can see two foreign teams invited and a good english stream. So i think a OGN SC2 league would do the same.
Additionally consider that the BW teams aren't sponsored in the traditional sense, but actually are owned by their companies.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Why does local sponsoring shows a lack of legitimacy. I think its the opposite. When local companies that don't sell gaming related products are willing to sponsor a team thats a good sign. If we look at traditional sports that happens all the time.
And to all the concerns about the inclusion of foreigners. If we look at OGNs new Lol league we can see two foreign teams invited and a good english stream. So i think a OGN SC2 league would do the same.
Additionally consider that the BW teams aren't sponsored in the traditional sense, but actually are owned by their companies.
Forgot to say that before, but yes, the teams are actually owned by the companies.
Maybe that's a good thing but i'm pretty sure that isn't the norm in regular team sports. Maybe it's also something specific for BW and the very concetrated fanbase? I'm no expert.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Why does local sponsoring shows a lack of legitimacy. I think its the opposite. When local companies that don't sell gaming related products are willing to sponsor a team thats a good sign. If we look at traditional sports that happens all the time.
And to all the concerns about the inclusion of foreigners. If we look at OGNs new Lol league we can see two foreign teams invited and a good english stream. So i think a OGN SC2 league would do the same.
What i meant is that in traditional sports it's more like lower leagues are sponsored by "local" companies be it local to a city or country (often to support "the home team" more than actual exposure). BW is more similar to a nations soccer league, being sponsored by some large companies and more country/city specific ones. SC2's fanbase is spread out more in the style of premier league/la liga soccer team fanbases, and sponsors that work globally have more of a reason to sponsor teams like that. SC2 better follows the way global sports work with sponsors whereas BW seems more isolated and in a way is more narrow in appeal to sponsors. Not saying anything about the games themselves, just the way they've worked with viewership and fanbases.
That's how it seems to me but, again, i'm no expert on stuff like this.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Why does local sponsoring shows a lack of legitimacy. I think its the opposite. When local companies that don't sell gaming related products are willing to sponsor a team thats a good sign. If we look at traditional sports that happens all the time.
And to all the concerns about the inclusion of foreigners. If we look at OGNs new Lol league we can see two foreign teams invited and a good english stream. So i think a OGN SC2 league would do the same.
Additionally consider that the BW teams aren't sponsored in the traditional sense, but actually are owned by their companies.
Forgot to say that before, but yes, the teams are actually owned by the companies.
Which is rare in real Sports but also happens there. For example FC Chelsea.
Lol.. I foresee hundreds of bureaucratic bullshit conflicts between these organisations. Maybe I'm pessimistic but.. yeah it'll be interesting to see what happens.
On March 30 2012 22:30 karpo wrote: Maybe that's a good thing but i'm pretty sure that isn't the norm in regular team sports. Maybe it's also something specific for BW and the very concetrated fanbase? I'm no expert.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a flaw in how BW works. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Yes, a worldwide E-sport. But which companies have the most to gain from it? Are they going to gain anything at all? At the end of the day, you have to ask the question: What's in this for ME?
You are right, a lot of these companies ARE local. That's why they will have no interest in reaching to a global audience. Especially the telecom companies.
Yeah but isn't popularity for BW on a downwards trend and SC2 isn't huge in korea? Maybe it's not sustainable to korean teams to be sponsored by ONE company. Foreign teams sure aren't. All i'm saying is that just because local korean companies currently sponsor teams on a one-to-one basis doesn't mean that won't change with a more global market.
I'm pretty sure many global companies that aim products towards gaming would be very interested in ex-BW level players and teams, but i'm not sure.
The bolded parts are exactly why those local companies listed above will be a lot more wary about investing in a SC2 team, even if the expenses are split between companies. And just look at those companies, most of them don't even have products and services that (directly) aim towards gaming.
That's why Korean BW was touted for a long time as a legitimate E-sports. It managed to attract the attention and the money of even those companies who seemingly had no products and services aimed towards gaming.
The teams and the players, sure. Current sponsors of foreign E-sports would be very interested in them.
To me it doesn't really show much legitimacy if a esport only survives in one country by sponsorships by local companies, it shows a lack of breadth. But that has little to do with the OP. Maybe well see local korean sponsors team up with global or even western ones to cover both the korean and euro/american market? Could be really cool.
Why does local sponsoring shows a lack of legitimacy. I think its the opposite. When local companies that don't sell gaming related products are willing to sponsor a team thats a good sign. If we look at traditional sports that happens all the time.
And to all the concerns about the inclusion of foreigners. If we look at OGNs new Lol league we can see two foreign teams invited and a good english stream. So i think a OGN SC2 league would do the same.
What i meant is that in traditional sports it's more like lower leagues are sponsored by "local" companies be it local to a city or country (often to support "the home team" more than actual exposure). BW is more similar to a nations top soccer league, being sponsored by some large companies and more country/city specific ones. SC2's fanbase is spread out more in the style of premier league/la liga soccer team fanbases, and sponsors that work globally have more of a reason to sponsor teams like that.
That's how it seems to me but, agian, i'm no expert on stuff like this.
Well I'm no expert either but i hope they can keep some big korean sponsors because i think Intel Razer or Steelseries can not sponsor all SC2 teams.
It's funny how the Korean teams meekly accepted to be plundered and exploited and bought off by western organizations, but NOW they need an alliance to oppose KeSPA teams from doing basically the same thing (at worst). I thought everybody loved bigger sponsors and more money for the players? Well here you go!
The OP is pretty blind/biased. Korean SC2 teams really have no power or leverage to speak of, no matter how united they may be now, it's too late. GOM has some, but not enough that they can win in a fair competition. Besides, between Korean players going to western teams to waste their talent or going to KeSPA teams and leagues, I'll pick the latter any time of day, and I hope many players end up doing the same.
KeSPA has nothing against foreign players. It goes without saying, though, that there will be no rescheduling, foreign OSL seeds, or any special treatment they currently get with GOM.
glad that they try to maintain their status, its easier to fight together, hope they will get some foreign team support. On the other hand i hope they will dissolve once the crisis is averted, which will probably not happen.
Not much we can do anyway, except from hoping that kespa won't take over the market and make it for koreans only, since they have no reason to show their teams worldwide. But i have a negative view on kespa anyway, so i don't think i have a neutral view on things.
I hope this does not end like sc2con. But I agree that sc2 needs some sort of big body, as long as there is some sort of control of the general community over it, which I think there is.
I just want teams and their players right now to keep playing like they always used to. And teams to send players to MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, HomeStory etc like they do now. I would also love for Broodwar teams to switch to SC2 so that we can have more teams in team leagues than now. But it seems like broodwar teams might just play with themselves? While current teams just stick to GOM? I really don't get this contract stuff; but it would be great to have a massive team league where all the teams are there. Then it would be like the actual sports leagues (NBA has 30 teams?) where there are more than 10 teams (or how many teams there are now, too lazy to count)
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
A lot of new (post-BW) fans just don't have the attachment to BW players and teams that they do to SC2 teams and GSL. Given that these new fans make up a huge part of the foreigner fan base I don't see the current SC2 teams losing their primacy overall. This SC2 Federation makes complete sense, though, because in Korea Kespa knows it has the upper hand. Blizzard needs to recognize that current SC2 teams have done all the heavy lifting and have most of the fan base. I'm interested to see Flash and Jaedong play SC2 (even though I have a hard time believing that they will achieve some kind of instant dominance), but If I'm staying up late to watch a Korean league it will be GSL. It will also be a huge turnoff if Kespa tries to monopolize players while SC2 Fed is allowing anyone to join.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
A lot of new (post-BW) fans just don't have the attachment to BW players and teams that they do to SC2 teams and GSL. Given that these new fans make up a huge part of the foreigner fan base I don't see the current SC2 teams losing their primacy overall. This SC2 Federation makes complete sense, though, because in Korea Kespa knows it has the upper hand. Blizzard needs to recognize that current SC2 teams have done all the heavy lifting and have most of the fan base. I'm interested to see Flash and Jaedong play SC2 (even though I have a hard time believing that they will achieve some kind of instant dominance), but If I'm staying up late to watch a Korean league it will be GSL. It will also be a huge turnoff if Kespa tries to monopolize players while SC2 Fed is allowing anyone to join.
Just to make things to be clear, it is e-sports Fed. I really think they will involve Korean LOL teams into this organization.
Good to see some sort of central governing body forming, it's definitely something the scene desperately needed. I hope they enter earnest negotiations with Blizzard and KeSPA so that they won't become another SC2Con.
i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
On March 30 2012 23:26 OpticalShot wrote: Good to see some sort of central governing body forming, it's definitely something the scene desperately needed. I hope they enter earnest negotiations with Blizzard and KeSPA so that they won't become another SC2Con.
How is a central governing body desperatly needed? If anything, I would say that the current model of foreign tournaments proves that there is no need for a centralized bureaucratic organization that gets to decide who competes.
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
If the new OGN LoL league is a indication of what they will do I'm sure they will try include foreigners in some way.
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
having jsut read FXOBoss's blog he linked on reddit he certainly made it sound like unless your on a korean team (as in on a korean that is based in Korea with more koreans then foreigners) then you wont be able to participate in the proleague, so if HuK for instance wanted to hed have to leave EG and join a korean team like slayers or IM
This is exciting! Big thanks to FXOBOSS for his insider info as well! Team Liquid.net is the greatest site because we are kept in the loop like this! =D
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
having jsut read FXOBoss's blog he linked on reddit he certainly made it sound like unless your on a korean team (as in on a korean that is based in Korea with more koreans then foreigners) then you wont be able to participate in the proleague, so if HuK for instance wanted to hed have to leave EG and join a korean team like slayers or IM
Just read the blog, very interesting... Again though lots of people are just claiming Kespa as evil(Not you but in general) but from what I can tell its legally all they can do. I expect some loop hole to be found that will allow partnership teams to participate. The only bad thing I am really worried about is the scheduling conflict... To all those people wanting "NA or EU only tournaments" Careful what you ask for, some boring ass tournies incoming without the Korean star power...
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
having jsut read FXOBoss's blog he linked on reddit he certainly made it sound like unless your on a korean team (as in on a korean that is based in Korea with more koreans then foreigners) then you wont be able to participate in the proleague, so if HuK for instance wanted to hed have to leave EG and join a korean team like slayers or IM
He would still be allowed to stay with GSL (althought it might become more competitive with the BW guys coming in).
He would also get a less competitive foreign environment when he goes for MLGs, IEMs, etc.
Also people are also confusing Proleague with the regular Individual Starleague. If OGN's effort on the Kespa-sanctioned LoL tournament is any indicator, they could potentially open up the individual league to foreigners.
I don't really get the panic and concern at the moment. The only major cause for one is Koreans not being able to make too many foreign events. Until KeSPA and OGN announce their plans for the INDIVIDUAL Starleague, I think this will not be an issue.
Seems to be a much better arrangement than SC2Con, the goals are very unified among the teams because of the vested interests they share and they look to be singular - to stay relevant and not be overrun by KESPA. Foreigner teams will need to be a somewhat decent part of this though because a lot of the money in the current scene shows through on both sides of the Pacific. So we will see how that works out. Cheers!
On March 30 2012 23:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: still wondering though...does this somehow improve the chance of Team 8 getting sponsored...
Probably will. I imagine sponsors didn't want to pour money into a soon to be dead scene but if Proleague is including SC2 then at least for the first few years tons of people will want to see how it goes.
Seems like a move to preserve the current globalization going on, rather than letting scene slide back to the way things were during the bw era. I can support that. I wonder what the foreign teams will have to say.
On March 30 2012 21:36 jpak wrote: Just to estimate how much interest the current Korean BW teams actually have for foreign fans, let's see what the companies actually are:
Preface: For these companies, the teams are another way of getting their name and brand out to the market. For their "advertisement" expenses in these teams to be worthwhile, they need to hit the demographics and the audiences they intended for.
1. ACE: Needs no explanation. Solely focused in Korea.
2. SKT and KT: These are rival telecom companies that mainly operate in South Korea. They are the internet and phone providers for South Korea. They have little interest in going out-of-country, certainly not in the NA and EU markets. Also very closely related to the E-sports market, so no surprisingly they are the biggest two BW teams at the moment.
3. STX: It's a shipping company. Honestly, I didn't even know about a company called STX until I saw STX Soul. It's still a mystery to me exactly why they decided to fund a team, but I guess people like me are exactly why.
4. Samsung: They probably have the most to gain from the NA/EU market. They could become like Razer, MSI, and other electronic companies currently sponsoring Western E-sports and market their TVs, monitors, computer hardwares, and phones through this channel.
5. CJ: They probably have the 2nd most to gain from the NA/EU markets out of all the teams. CJ Entertainment certainly could use exposure in marketing their new movies out to a non-Korean audience. GOM and OGN are also subsidiaries of CJ, so that could be a factor. Viewers actually matter for this company.
6. Woongjin: List of Woongjin businesses From what I knew beforehand, Woongjin is a chemical and food company (Woongjin drinks ftw). Not really sure how they can market themselves overseas through E-sports.
I left out Team 8 cause it's a league-owned team. If there's a way to sway Kespa to do something for the foreign fans, it would be through Team 8, imo.
Overall, I think over half the companies have little to no interest in marketing themselves to the west, at least not through E-sports.
Edit: Of course, this is just one man's opinion. You are welcome to try to make me see that there IS a market out there for some of these companies.
That seems to be a "flaw" in how BW teams work. Teams are sponsored by one company. For BW this worked well as there's enough local interest in korea alone. SC2 is shaping up to be a worldwide esport and as such local sponsors have less to gain, seing as SC2 win probably never be as large as BW was. Maybe teams will be picked up by other companies or several companies run a team together?
Not true, teams have multiple sponsors but the ones he listed are the sponsors with naming rights to the team.
i.e. for a period of time OGN sparkyz were known as "hite sparkyz" where hite was the naming sponsor. i.e. kraze burger sponsors SKT
Them and their Nascar driver jackets with all the sponsors.
Slowly coming to SC2 as Razor and such are sponsoring. Tho as said, BW teams have a load of local sponsors, advertising for the local crowd and scene. It would no translate well into the international scene as dollars well spent.
I think with Blizzard being more involved we will not see the power Kespa wielded(s) that seems so many are afraid of happening. We do not want them coming in with their league and denying any of the current teams from participating.
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
having jsut read FXOBoss's blog he linked on reddit he certainly made it sound like unless your on a korean team (as in on a korean that is based in Korea with more koreans then foreigners) then you wont be able to participate in the proleague, so if HuK for instance wanted to hed have to leave EG and join a korean team like slayers or IM
He would still be allowed to stay with GSL (althought it might become more competitive with the BW guys coming in).
He would also get a less competitive foreign environment when he goes for MLGs, IEMs, etc.
Also people are also confusing Proleague with the regular Individual Starleague. If OGN's effort on the Kespa-sanctioned LoL tournament is any indicator, they could potentially open up the individual league to foreigners.
I don't really get the panic and concern at the moment. The only major cause for one is Koreans not being able to make too many foreign events. Until KeSPA and OGN announce their plans for the INDIVIDUAL Starleague, I think this will not be an issue.
im just really worried about never seeing a foreigner in any korean events, it seems like from what boss said that KeSPa is both in the position and has a history of preventing foreigners from entering there events id just like to see any foreigner with enough skill being able to fly to korea and taking part in korean events
I dont see why people are crying about not seeing foreigners in korean events
The only reason there are foreigners in GSL is because of charity seeds. A foreigner has NEVER won the Code A qualifiers except maybe in the open season
On March 31 2012 00:26 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont see why people are crying about not seeing foreigners in korean events
The only reason there are foreigners in GSL is because of charity seeds. A foreigner has NEVER won the Code A qualifiers except maybe in the open season
open season was alot harder then it is now, the open season had everyone, including the 64 palyers from the last season so it was almost like fighting your way through the entire GSL in order to be deemed worthy to play in the GSL
and obligatory reminder that HuK and Jinro still exist
In the end, its all up to blizzard. I very much like the solutions that FXOBOSS gave in his blog, and i pray that blizzard will go with something similar. KESPA needs to know their place. This is not BW anymore, and its not a korea-only sport anymore either. They never seemed to be "against" foreigners in general, but that isn't to say that they were ever "with" us. Its time to band together, and get sc2 globalized. I want gsl type tourneys in every region dammit.
On March 31 2012 00:26 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont see why people are crying about not seeing foreigners in korean events
The only reason there are foreigners in GSL is because of charity seeds. A foreigner has NEVER won the Code A qualifiers except maybe in the open season
but how do you feel about koreans not being allowed to participate in korean events. your not so subtle jab should be delivered elsewhere i think, like another thread
On March 31 2012 00:26 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont see why people are crying about not seeing foreigners in korean events
The only reason there are foreigners in GSL is because of charity seeds. A foreigner has NEVER won the Code A qualifiers except maybe in the open season
open season was alot harder then it is now, the open season had everyone, including the 64 palyers from the last season so it was almost like fighting your way through the entire GSL in order to be deemed worthy to play in the GSL
and obligatory reminder that HuK and Jinro still exist
meh i wouldnt use the term hard since it was all cheesy
and what about huk and jinro? they never qualified through the qualifiers, maybe jinro i dont know but huk never did they would still be allowed to participate in gsl..not just kespa league because they dont belong to a korean team
On March 31 2012 00:26 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont see why people are crying about not seeing foreigners in korean events
The only reason there are foreigners in GSL is because of charity seeds. A foreigner has NEVER won the Code A qualifiers except maybe in the open season
but how do you feel about koreans not being allowed to participate in korean events. your not so subtle jab should be delivered elsewhere i think, like another thread
Did you mean no koreans in foreigner events? I could care less about that I hardly watch them anyway, if I do its the finals and its almost always a korean vs korean anyway
Incase you did mean what you said Koreans would be allowed to participate in the kespa league because they belong to a korean team
meh i wouldnt use the term hard since it was all cheesy
and what about huk and jinro? they never qualified through the qualifiers, maybe jinro i dont know but huk never did they would still be allowed to participate in gsl..not just kespa league because they dont belong to a korean team
im not so sure about Jinro but i know HuK climbed to Code S from Code A at some point
and the open qualifiers werent all cheesy, the game wasnt that insanely cheesy back then its not like everyone cheesed every game
there was probably a bit more cheese back then then there is now but all in all it was still the same relative level of competition, getting through the open qualifiers was alot harer then getting through code B becuase there was jsut more skilled people to go against
meh i wouldnt use the term hard since it was all cheesy
and what about huk and jinro? they never qualified through the qualifiers, maybe jinro i dont know but huk never did they would still be allowed to participate in gsl..not just kespa league because they dont belong to a korean team
im not so sure about Jinro but i know HuK climbed to Code S from Code A at some point
huk was given his code a seed originally, never earned it
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
having jsut read FXOBoss's blog he linked on reddit he certainly made it sound like unless your on a korean team (as in on a korean that is based in Korea with more koreans then foreigners) then you wont be able to participate in the proleague, so if HuK for instance wanted to hed have to leave EG and join a korean team like slayers or IM
He would still be allowed to stay with GSL (althought it might become more competitive with the BW guys coming in).
He would also get a less competitive foreign environment when he goes for MLGs, IEMs, etc.
Also people are also confusing Proleague with the regular Individual Starleague. If OGN's effort on the Kespa-sanctioned LoL tournament is any indicator, they could potentially open up the individual league to foreigners.
I don't really get the panic and concern at the moment. The only major cause for one is Koreans not being able to make too many foreign events. Until KeSPA and OGN announce their plans for the INDIVIDUAL Starleague, I think this will not be an issue.
im just really worried about never seeing a foreigner in any korean events, it seems like from what boss said that KeSPa is both in the position and has a history of preventing foreigners from entering there events id just like to see any foreigner with enough skill being able to fly to korea and taking part in korean events
It's not that foreigners were denied by KeSPA in participating in any SL or PL. They were just not good enough to qualify for a SL / selected for PL. Basically it's exactly like how the foreigner success is right now in GSL code A qualifiers (0 qualification in 2011 I think) except GSL has given free seeds to foreigners for code S and code A whilst in BW the foreigners weren't given any free passes directly into their tournaments.
There's the Courage tournament which is basically a qualifier in getting a semi pro license (or full license) iirc. Once you had this license you could be drafted by the KeSPA teams and then participate in the qualifiers for OSL/MSL or selected to play in PL.
Most foreigners had their licenses given by teams instead of winning Courage. You'll have to lookup which foreigners actually won Courage (I believe there are a few that did?).
Pretty sure I explained the general lines of how BW is for foreigners.
TLDR; Right now SC2 is going the same way as BW is right now except foreigners are given more chances to compete with the top level Koreans by getting free passes directly into their main tournaments.
On March 31 2012 00:26 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont see why people are crying about not seeing foreigners in korean events
The only reason there are foreigners in GSL is because of charity seeds. A foreigner has NEVER won the Code A qualifiers except maybe in the open season
I guess a lot of people had hopes of seeing starcraft 2 becoming more of an international e-sport than broodwar ever was, rather than something exclusively korean where there was no incentive to deliver content to anyone not residing in korea. At this point that might seem rather unrealistic, but a while back it looked like a real possibility. I think a korean pro league is the nail in the coffin for competitive foreign sc2, but on the other hand I don't know how korean teams are ever going to be able to afford korean players if foreign teams keep recruiting at the current rate.
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
meh i wouldnt use the term hard since it was all cheesy
and what about huk and jinro? they never qualified through the qualifiers, maybe jinro i dont know but huk never did they would still be allowed to participate in gsl..not just kespa league because they dont belong to a korean team
im not so sure about Jinro but i know HuK climbed to Code S from Code A at some point
huk was given his code a seed originally, never earned it
ya your right, HuK obviously has stcuk in Code S because hes not goo enough to be there
On March 31 2012 01:22 dekibeki wrote: 1.4k word essay on my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
meh i wouldnt use the term hard since it was all cheesy
and what about huk and jinro? they never qualified through the qualifiers, maybe jinro i dont know but huk never did they would still be allowed to participate in gsl..not just kespa league because they dont belong to a korean team
im not so sure about Jinro but i know HuK climbed to Code S from Code A at some point
huk was given his code a seed originally, never earned it
ya your right, HuK obviously has stcuk in Code S because hes not goo enough to be there
On March 31 2012 01:22 dekibeki wrote: 1.4k word essay on my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
were not asking for special considerations, but if a palyer like HuK who has proven to be able to fight with the big boys comes up and is legit as good as the players in the KeSPa event, we want him to be able to participate instead of KeSPA road blocking him
On March 31 2012 01:22 dekibeki wrote: 1.4k word essay on my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
were not asking for special considerations, but if a palyer like HuK who has proven to be able to fight with the big boys comes up and is legit as good as the players in the KeSPa event, we want him to be able to participate instead of KeSPA road blocking him
I don't think Huk will be "booted" out of the GSL. However, if he loses and drops out, we shouldn't expect anymore invites.
Same with the OSL tournament - they should not allow invites whatsoever.
On March 31 2012 01:22 dekibeki wrote: 1.4k word essay on my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
were not asking for special considerations, but if a palyer like HuK who has proven to be able to fight with the big boys comes up and is legit as good as the players in the KeSPa event, we want him to be able to participate instead of KeSPA road blocking him
I don't think Huk will be "booted" out of the GSL. However, if he loses and drops out, we shouldn't expect anymore invites.
Same with the OSL tournament - they should not allow invites whatsoever.
the problem is according to FXOBoss's blog, they wouldnt allow huk to even go to any qualifier you ahve to be livingin Korea on a korean team
and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
Well, for starters, there are little definite facts out there, even for those organizations that are already operating in KR. A sensible approach would be to wait and see. However, given the involvement in the scene of said teams, insider info is bound to leak. The fact that a majority of existing teams deemed it necessary to coordinate their policies does imply concerns given the information that is available to them internally.
at first I didn't really get what boss was saying(actually I'm still not sure) but then I think he meant it being that you can only participate if you have a progaming license and are on a kespa team(actually the team part is also not true anymore since Hiya is going to play in the upcoming OSL and hes not on a team.)
yeah I'm over 90% sure they will not do that for SC2.
So confused by FXOBoss's bit in the OP. So if KESPA takes over and says join us or die there would be no foreigners, or is it the e-Sports Federation that could be ended foreigners.
Why would anyone want to end foreigner moneyparticipation?
KESPA is accepting only teams from korea.. So a foreigner would have to be in a korean team to participate in pro league. Sorry if I have confused people. Thats basically the TLDR
On March 31 2012 02:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: at first I didn't really get what boss was saying(actually I'm still not sure) but then I think he meant it being that you can only participate if you have a progaming license and are on a kespa team(actually the team part is also not true anymore since Hiya is going to play in the upcoming OSL and hes not on a team.)
yeah I'm over 90% sure they will not do that for SC2.
Also given the fact with OGN LoL this reinforces your statement. I'm also believing it's not going to be like that.
On March 31 2012 02:10 FXOBoSs wrote: KESPA is accepting only teams from korea.. So a foreigner would have to be in a korean team to participate in pro league. Sorry if I have confused people. Thats basically the TLDR
Then it must only be for SC2 since it's not for LoL (look at CLG).
On March 31 2012 02:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: at first I didn't really get what boss was saying(actually I'm still not sure) but then I think he meant it being that you can only participate if you have a progaming license and are on a kespa team(actually the team part is also not true anymore since Hiya is going to play in the upcoming OSL and hes not on a team.)
yeah I'm over 90% sure they will not do that for SC2.
Also given the fact with OGN LoL this reinforces your statement. I'm also believing it's not going to be like that.
On March 31 2012 02:10 FXOBoSs wrote: KESPA is accepting only teams from korea.. So a foreigner would have to be in a korean team to participate in pro league. Sorry if I have confused people. Thats basically the TLDR
Then it must only be for SC2 since it's not for LoL (look at CLG).
Count the LoL teams vs SC2 teams.. Its going to be ~16 SC2 teams or more depending on how many re-forms there are.
meh i wouldnt use the term hard since it was all cheesy
and what about huk and jinro? they never qualified through the qualifiers, maybe jinro i dont know but huk never did they would still be allowed to participate in gsl..not just kespa league because they dont belong to a korean team
im not so sure about Jinro but i know HuK climbed to Code S from Code A at some point
huk was given his code a seed originally, never earned it
ya your right, HuK obviously has stcuk in Code S because hes not goo enough to be there
HuK isn't in Code S... he is only in Code A due to a up/down seeding if I remember correctly...
More ontopic. I Honestly don't see this as being as bad as FXOBoss is predicting. Yes he has more info then me, but I think he is reading more into it then he should. I don't see the pro league banning the partnerships(I'm sure they can find legal loopholes etc.) and if Hiya can participate in OSL without a team, if they ever make a individual league I don't see them banning foreigners from it. Only concern that I agree with is the scheduling problem and possibility of Koreans not coming to as many foreign tournaments.
This is all of course mere speculation... He obviously has tons of info and knows more then me.
Score one for FXOpen for investing heavily into the Korean scene at the earliest possible opportunity. Now it's looking like the investment will finally (and ultimately) payoff by having the FXOpen logo in the Proleague.
I'm very curious about why Slayers is not in the Federation. I understand that they were not in the SC2Con before, but this is different. The main purpose of this new Federation is to protect the teams and their players. It almost makes me think that Slayers can compete with current BW corporations financially (yeah, right), or... do they still have the connection to SKT?
Lastly, I'm not so sure that the foreign influence will die out as FXOBoss pointed out. Remember, it's all about $$$ at this point. KeSPA/OGN is not so stupid to completely ignore the foreign market. I expect that all the foreign partnership will continue even with the Proleague launch, until the foreign scene is no longer needed (remember that BW lasted for over 10 years in Korea)
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
they dont "roadblock" all foreigners. if u are fucking good enough u can try 2 get into a team. if u are not fuckign good enough u go play ur fucking foreigner events and let the big boys play vs each other cause u obv cant beat them.
just becuase KeSPA doesnt give foreigners stupid invites doesnt mean they block them from coming in... face it foreigner suck... thats the problem not KeSPA blocking anyone.
On March 31 2012 02:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: at first I didn't really get what boss was saying(actually I'm still not sure) but then I think he meant it being that you can only participate if you have a progaming license and are on a kespa team(actually the team part is also not true anymore since Hiya is going to play in the upcoming OSL and hes not on a team.)
yeah I'm over 90% sure they will not do that for SC2.
Also given the fact with OGN LoL this reinforces your statement. I'm also believing it's not going to be like that.
On March 31 2012 02:10 FXOBoSs wrote: KESPA is accepting only teams from korea.. So a foreigner would have to be in a korean team to participate in pro league. Sorry if I have confused people. Thats basically the TLDR
Then it must only be for SC2 since it's not for LoL (look at CLG).
Count the LoL teams vs SC2 teams.. Its going to be ~16 SC2 teams or more depending on how many re-forms there are.
The best senario is to have one league where all teams can participate, and the broadcasting rights being distributed equally between GOM and OGN.. However, I'm not sure how much current BW players can compete in SC2 scene.
So it's essentially the Anti-Kespa, or, if you like, the SC2 Resistance Front. It's definitely a smart move for the teams to make, and it will be very much for the good of the scene if Kespa is not able to establish another cartel-esque monopoly over the ESPORTS scene in Korea as in BW. Two organizations with their own leagues working side by side is a great model, honestly.
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
they dont "roadblock" all foreigners. if u are fucking good enough u can try 2 get into a team. if u are not fuckign good enough u go play ur fucking foreigner events and let the big boys play vs each other cause u obv cant beat them.
just becuase KeSPA doesnt give foreigners stupid invites doesnt mean they block them from coming in... face it foreigner suck... thats the problem not KeSPA blocking anyone.
which is why there are foreigners getting higher place at MLGs then Koreans
Koreans being far better then foreigners jsut isnt true anymore, there are some koreans better then any foreigners but there are foreigners at the level of top koreans
and yes, even if a foreigner was as good as any of the top Koreans he could only aprticipate if he moved to kroea, left his team and joined a korean team, erego foreign teams pretty mcuh disapear since anyone who actually wants to be pro goes to Korea becuase they cant really go anywhere else
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
I don't get why this is even a big worry.
Blizzard has to give broadcasting rights to Kespa for them to hold a tournament and with all the work Blizzard has done to make SC2 a global esport I just don't see how they can allow Kespa to be Korean only. This is the same Blizzard that brought up IP rights against Kespa for BW. The BW esports scene which they did next to nothing to fostering. Obviously Blizzard cares about esports. While they probably can't dictate how details in a league are run but they have all the leverage now that sponsorship dollars are drying up in BW.
I see the other SC2 teams trying to get representatives (or maybe forming a bigger organizations with all the BW teams) and then maybe at least 2 leagues in Korea if they can get enough sponsorships. We'll probably see stricter rules regarding conduct and chat during games and appearances if a Kespa-like organization is formed but I imagine the progamers want some sense of order.
Remember when Zenex coach posted on TL a few months back about needing a sponsorship? Well that was downright pathetic and things should get a lot better for some of the poorer teams if there's some organization.
On March 31 2012 02:22 Captain Peabody wrote: So it's essentially the Anti-Kespa, or, if you like, the SC2 Resistance Front. It's definitely a smart move for the teams to make, and it will be very much for the good of the scene if Kespa is not able to establish another cartel-esque monopoly over the ESPORTS scene in Korea as in BW. Two organizations with their own leagues working side by side is a great model, honestly.
No, it's not anti-KeSPA. KeSPA is not the main reason why this Federation is formed. If anything, KeSPA is an ally to this new entity rather than an enemy.
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
they dont "roadblock" all foreigners. if u are fucking good enough u can try 2 get into a team. if u are not fuckign good enough u go play ur fucking foreigner events and let the big boys play vs each other cause u obv cant beat them.
just becuase KeSPA doesnt give foreigners stupid invites doesnt mean they block them from coming in... face it foreigner suck... thats the problem not KeSPA blocking anyone.
which is why there are foreigners getting higher place at MLGs then Koreans
Koreans being far better then foreigners jsut isnt true anymore, there are some koreans better then any foreigners but there are foreigners at the level of top koreans
and yes, even if a foreigner was as good as any of the top Koreans he could only aprticipate if he moved to kroea, left his team and joined a korean team, erego foreign teams pretty mcuh disapear since anyone who actually wants to be pro goes to Korea becuase they cant really go anywhere else
Yes no shit. to play in the Bundesliga (soccer) you have to play in a german Team and move 2 Germany. wow wonder why that is?.
I'm surprised many people here aren't aware of how terrible KESPA was...
people criticizing SC2 teams that are trying to protect their players shouldn't even post anything until they learned what KESPA did in the past
here are just a couple...
lie to their players about prize money AFTER they have won, threatening their players from joining other tournaments by saying they will be banned from their own tournaments, willing to use their financial resources (which they have a ton of because of their sponsors) to pressure other tournaments into submission, etc
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
I don't get why this is even a big worry.
Blizzard has to give broadcasting rights to Kespa for them to hold a tournament and with all the work Blizzard has done to make SC2 a global esport I just don't see how they can allow Kespa to be Korean only. This is the same Blizzard that brought up IP rights against Kespa for BW. The BW esports scene which they did next to nothing to fostering. Obviously Blizzard cares about esports. While they probably can't dictate how details in a league are run but they have all the leverage now that sponsorship dollars are drying up in BW.
I see the other SC2 teams trying to get representatives (or maybe forming a bigger organizations with all the BW teams) and then maybe at least 2 leagues in Korea if they can get enough sponsorships. We'll probably see stricter rules regarding conduct and chat during games and appearances if a Kespa-like organization is formed but I imagine the progamers want some sense of order.
Remember when Zenex coach posted on TL a few months back about needing a sponsorship? Well that was downright pathetic and things should get a lot better for some of the poorer teams if there's some organization.
It's all about the money that's being thrown into the market. I can guarantee that sponsorship is not going to be as much of a problem as it is now once the games are being shown in the cable TV. I'm willing to bet that there are a few major coprorations (such as Samsung) that have been wanting to switch over to SC2 at the soonest simply because of the market exposure. This could also mean more opportunities for other big Korean corporations such as LG (who already sponsored the LG 3D tournament last year) and NCSoft. These companies have money and resources, and are always looking to get their names out in the global scene.
On March 31 2012 02:36 FidoDido wrote: I'm surprised many people here aren't aware of how terrible KESPA was...
people criticizing SC2 teams that are trying to protect their players shouldn't even post anything until they learned what KESPA did in the past
here are just a couple...
lie to their players about prize money AFTER they have won, threatening their players from joining other tournaments by saying they will be banned from their own tournaments, willing to use their financial resources (which they have a ton of because of their sponsors) to pressure other tournaments into submission, etc
Huh ? The only thing that is good from my point of view is that despite fox,mbc and oz was disbanded Kespa combine the best players from the 3 team to make kespa 8 . That in my opinion is a dedicated organization to ensure e-sport bw scene continues to live on . I don't see anything bad about kespa supporting the scene while you guys keep repeating the same mindless accusation that kespa is doing everything wrong and evil.
On March 31 2012 02:36 FidoDido wrote: I'm surprised many people here aren't aware of how terrible KESPA was...
people criticizing SC2 teams that are trying to protect their players shouldn't even post anything until they learned what KESPA did in the past
here are just a couple...
lie to their players about prize money AFTER they have won, threatening their players from joining other tournaments by saying they will be banned from their own tournaments, willing to use their financial resources (which they have a ton of because of their sponsors) to pressure other tournaments into submission, etc
Oh I just love skewing facts. If you are going to talk about KeSPA you might as well talk about them as a whole rather than nitpicking.
Not like I didn't expect it in this thread, but come on now.
On March 31 2012 02:22 Captain Peabody wrote: So it's essentially the Anti-Kespa, or, if you like, the SC2 Resistance Front. It's definitely a smart move for the teams to make, and it will be very much for the good of the scene if Kespa is not able to establish another cartel-esque monopoly over the ESPORTS scene in Korea as in BW. Two organizations with their own leagues working side by side is a great model, honestly.
No, it's not anti-KeSPA. KeSPA is not the main reason why this Federation is formed. If anything, KeSPA is an ally to this new entity rather than an enemy.
KESPA is very much a reason why this organization is forming. It's basically the existing Korean sc2 scene trying get involved with any new leagues that are going to be created.
On March 31 2012 01:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: and why would KeSPA roadblock him? Foreigners sucked in BW, they don't as much in SC2, if he is good he will be able to participate in any SC2 tournament KeSPA and OGN hold.
i suggest you read Boss's blog, its possible they wont roadblock him, and if they dont good for him, but its also possible, or even pretty likely, that KesPA will keep the rules it had in BW and roadblock all foreigners
they dont "roadblock" all foreigners. if u are fucking good enough u can try 2 get into a team. if u are not fuckign good enough u go play ur fucking foreigner events and let the big boys play vs each other cause u obv cant beat them.
just becuase KeSPA doesnt give foreigners stupid invites doesnt mean they block them from coming in... face it foreigner suck... thats the problem not KeSPA blocking anyone.
which is why there are foreigners getting higher place at MLGs then Koreans
Koreans being far better then foreigners jsut isnt true anymore, there are some koreans better then any foreigners but there are foreigners at the level of top koreans
and yes, even if a foreigner was as good as any of the top Koreans he could only aprticipate if he moved to kroea, left his team and joined a korean team, erego foreign teams pretty mcuh disapear since anyone who actually wants to be pro goes to Korea becuase they cant really go anywhere else
Yes no shit. to play in the Bundesliga (soccer) you have to play in a german Team and move 2 Germany. wow wonder why that is?.
And that is fine when you want soccer to only have the Bundesliga. And yes, KeSPA is perfectly right and sensible even if all they want is a korean-centric proleague. But that is not what everybody wants. For example the already existing teams and leagues. One way to represent your own interests is by negotiating with KeSPA directly. Another way is to organize and form a more streamlined voice. That is why FXOBoSs suggested the need of several region based roof organizations, in order to have enough weight in negotiating interaction, business, regulations and scheduling on a executive level. Since the teams of the e-Sports federation seem to share similar interests, it is also right and sensible to create such an alliance. So what's the fuzz?
On March 31 2012 02:36 FidoDido wrote: I'm surprised many people here aren't aware of how terrible KESPA was...
people criticizing SC2 teams that are trying to protect their players shouldn't even post anything until they learned what KESPA did in the past
here are just a couple...
lie to their players about prize money AFTER they have won, threatening their players from joining other tournaments by saying they will be banned from their own tournaments, willing to use their financial resources (which they have a ton of because of their sponsors) to pressure other tournaments into submission, etc
Oh I just love skewing facts. If you are going to talk about KeSPA you might as well talk about them as a whole rather than nitpicking.
Not like I didn't expect it in this thread, but come on now.
From most of what I have heard, KeSPA sounded pretty thugish when it was running BW. There is a reason Blizzard had a pretty healthly legal battle with them with SC2 came out. They may have had some good aspects, but almost every report I have head from everyone on TL and beyond was that KeSPA make every effort to control BW . I dont think Blizzard will let them be like that again, but teams have every reason to stick up for themselves.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
This is a very smart move. These teams have paved the way for the entire SC2 team in the last few years and it's not unreasonable to imagine KESPA trying to edge them out with their existing Korean influence and effectively kill Foreign teams in Korea simultaneously. Everyone that's appreciated what GOMTV has done for esports, Starcraft 2, international fucking relations etc. . . needs to back this wholeheartedly.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
doesnt change the stuff with OGN/MBC m estro and SKT and that the player were overworked and didnt even practice for the league and didnt want 2 play in the league.
On March 31 2012 01:22 dekibeki wrote: 1.4k word essay on my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
Foreigners don't have the luxury of living in korea to constantly attempt to qualify for GSL and future tourneys, nor do they have the luxury of being noticed through the ladder granted the ping difference, ignorance is bliss?
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
doesnt change the stuff with OGN/MBC m estro and SKT and that the player were overworked and didnt even practice for the league and didnt want 2 play in the league.
This makes it one of the reasons. The main reason why they were forced to drop the classics is stated above. -Back to topic- Hopefully this new e-sports body doesn't solely focus on SC2, they should also focus on other games that aren't sanctioned (hint hint, not paid with bribes to KeSPA) by KeSPA. Most games sanctioned by KeSPA are shitty MMOs and generic CS clones like Sudden Attack, so there's plenty of good games that aren't tainted by filthy clutches of KeSPA.
On March 31 2012 02:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: at first I didn't really get what boss was saying(actually I'm still not sure) but then I think he meant it being that you can only participate if you have a progaming license and are on a kespa team(actually the team part is also not true anymore since Hiya is going to play in the upcoming OSL and hes not on a team.)
yeah I'm over 90% sure they will not do that for SC2.
Also given the fact with OGN LoL this reinforces your statement. I'm also believing it's not going to be like that.
On March 31 2012 02:10 FXOBoSs wrote: KESPA is accepting only teams from korea.. So a foreigner would have to be in a korean team to participate in pro league. Sorry if I have confused people. Thats basically the TLDR
Then it must only be for SC2 since it's not for LoL (look at CLG).
Count the LoL teams vs SC2 teams.. Its going to be ~16 SC2 teams or more depending on how many re-forms there are.
Obviously I don't have all the info as you do so I can only go by what is publicly known.
From what I gather it isn't really about teams being Korean they only need to be in Korea (which is fair). The amount of teams participating shouldn't be a problem as well.
LoL had a preliminary tournament (24 teams for 12 spots + 4 seeded for a total of 16 teams). Can't see why it wouldn't work for sc2 PL as well in a similar fashion. BW teams getting seeds and the remaining spots could be through qualification or a mixture of both.
Not saying this Federation is a bad idea (it's a good idea for the global scene) I'm only questioning whether it's really true that the sc2 PL must be KeSPA sanctioned teams/players only if they aren't doing it with LoL and OSL.
I know it used to be KeSPA teams/players only but times are changing and it seems KeSPA are open to change if you look at their recent actions (LoL and OSL).
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
I just realized that without LAN support for SC2, KeSPA will need permission from Blizz to run SC2 Proleague (or individual leagues) ... KeSPA has almost no power, in a sense. They have a lot of money, sure, but I feel like Blizz/GOM will be able to negotiate/control the situation such that GSL/OSL become the new MSL/OSL.
On March 31 2012 03:17 jtp118 wrote: I just realized that without LAN support for SC2, KeSPA will need permission from Blizz to run SC2 Proleague (or individual leagues) ... KeSPA has almost no power, in a sense. They have a lot of money, sure, but I feel like Blizz/GOM will be able to negotiate/control the situation such that GSL/OSL become the new MSL/OSL.
Yeah, but KESPA doesnt like to get threatened, they like things their own way, they could say "oh so you wanna block sc2 to us if we dont agree to your conditions?, well fuck sc1 and sc2 i will just go all the way with LoL it has bigger audience anyway."
On March 31 2012 03:23 MildSeven wrote: Slayers don't need to part of it because Boxer is the emperor, he runs E-Sport empire.
Seriously, whichever organization gets BoxeR's support will legitimize its existence. But KeSPA has no chance of getting BoxeR's support, that's for sure.
On March 31 2012 03:23 MildSeven wrote: Slayers don't need to part of it because Boxer is the emperor, he runs E-Sport empire.
Seriously, whichever organization gets BoxeR's support will legitimize its existence. But KeSPA has no chance of getting BoxeR's support, that's for sure.
Why is that? I'm not familiar with their history. It looked to me like Slayers not choosing this side during this very decisive time was a signal that he would go for Kespa.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea
Feel free to enlighten me ^^
So.. who is the good guy then and who is the evil one ? Right now it looks to me that the Federation = good and Kespa = evil
But who am i to try to judge about that with my small basic knowledge about the sc2 scene.
On March 31 2012 03:23 MildSeven wrote: Slayers don't need to part of it because Boxer is the emperor, he runs E-Sport empire.
Seriously, whichever organization gets BoxeR's support will legitimize its existence. But KeSPA has no chance of getting BoxeR's support, that's for sure.
Why is that? I'm not familiar with their history. It looked to me like Slayers not choosing this side during this very decisive time was a signal that he would go for Kespa.
Because KeSPA-affiliated eSports media labeled BoxeR a "traitor" and a "prize hunter" when he switched to SC2.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea
Feel free to enlighten me ^^
So.. who is the good guy then and who is the evil one ? Right now it looks to me that the Federation = good and Kespa = evil
But who am i to try to judge about that with my small basic knowledge about the sc2 scene.
You got Kespa = evil part right, but Federation = good? We'll have to see.
On March 31 2012 03:23 MildSeven wrote: Slayers don't need to part of it because Boxer is the emperor, he runs E-Sport empire.
Seriously, whichever organization gets BoxeR's support will legitimize its existence. But KeSPA has no chance of getting BoxeR's support, that's for sure.
Why is that? I'm not familiar with their history. It looked to me like Slayers not choosing this side during this very decisive time was a signal that he would go for Kespa.
Because KeSPA-affiliated eSports media labeled BoxeR a "traitor" and a "prize hunter" when he switched to SC2.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea
Feel free to enlighten me ^^
So.. who is the good guy then and who is the evil one ? Right now it looks to me that the Federation = good and Kespa = evil
But who am i to try to judge about that with my small basic knowledge about the sc2 scene.
You got Kespa = evil part right, but Federation = good? We'll have to see.
DES != KeSPA. KeSPA actually directly contradicted DES lately. DES is as affiliated with KeSPA as Fomos is affiliated with KeSPA.
On March 31 2012 03:23 MildSeven wrote: Slayers don't need to part of it because Boxer is the emperor, he runs E-Sport empire.
Seriously, whichever organization gets BoxeR's support will legitimize its existence. But KeSPA has no chance of getting BoxeR's support, that's for sure.
Why is that? I'm not familiar with their history. It looked to me like Slayers not choosing this side during this very decisive time was a signal that he would go for Kespa.
Because KeSPA-affiliated eSports media labeled BoxeR a "traitor" and a "prize hunter" when he switched to SC2.
On March 31 2012 03:31 Ein0r wrote:
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea
Feel free to enlighten me ^^
So.. who is the good guy then and who is the evil one ? Right now it looks to me that the Federation = good and Kespa = evil
But who am i to try to judge about that with my small basic knowledge about the sc2 scene.
You got Kespa = evil part right, but Federation = good? We'll have to see.
DES != KeSPA. KeSPA actually directly contradicted DES lately. DES is as affiliated with KeSPA as Fomos is affiliated with KeSPA.
KeSPA isn't evil they're just incompetent.
I really like the word Thugish. It sounds like the most appropriate discription of how they have worked in the past. Not evil. Just a short sighted bully.
On March 31 2012 03:17 jtp118 wrote: I just realized that without LAN support for SC2, KeSPA will need permission from Blizz to run SC2 Proleague (or individual leagues) ... KeSPA has almost no power, in a sense. They have a lot of money, sure, but I feel like Blizz/GOM will be able to negotiate/control the situation such that GSL/OSL become the new MSL/OSL.
Yeah, but KESPA doesnt like to get threatened, they like things their own way, they could say "oh so you wanna block sc2 to us, well fuck sc1 and sc2 i will just go all the way with LoL it has bigger audience anyway."
You are completely right insanet, Kespa is trying to preserve a RTS title in its portfolio, they are having problems getting sponsors for BW but it is still far far bigger tha SC2 in Korea, if Blizzard make tough conditions they just could say, you know what, we are going to stick to LoL and other game genres that are more popular in korea than its Franchise.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea
Feel free to enlighten me ^^
So.. who is the good guy then and who is the evil one ? Right now it looks to me that the Federation = good and Kespa = evil
But who am i to try to judge about that with my small basic knowledge about the sc2 scene.
how about adding bw to that list too? We cannot judge this new association yet lmao and KeSPA isn't as evil as many people try to make it out to be.
On March 31 2012 03:23 MildSeven wrote: Slayers don't need to part of it because Boxer is the emperor, he runs E-Sport empire.
Seriously, whichever organization gets BoxeR's support will legitimize its existence. But KeSPA has no chance of getting BoxeR's support, that's for sure.
Why is that? I'm not familiar with their history. It looked to me like Slayers not choosing this side during this very decisive time was a signal that he would go for Kespa.
Because KeSPA-affiliated eSports media labeled BoxeR a "traitor" and a "prize hunter" when he switched to SC2.
On March 31 2012 03:31 Ein0r wrote:
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea
Feel free to enlighten me ^^
So.. who is the good guy then and who is the evil one ? Right now it looks to me that the Federation = good and Kespa = evil
But who am i to try to judge about that with my small basic knowledge about the sc2 scene.
You got Kespa = evil part right, but Federation = good? We'll have to see.
DES != KeSPA. KeSPA actually directly contradicted DES lately. DES is as affiliated with KeSPA as Fomos is affiliated with KeSPA.
KeSPA isn't evil they're just incompetent.
I never said DES is part of KeSPA. DES is definitely pro-KeSPA. KeSPA just ditched DES because of DES being incompetent and their shitty journalism. But I do agree with you on KeSPA being incompetent shit. And we all know that "one e-sports insider" in the related articles mean KeSPA.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
No, it's the fact that we've been around here for a while and we know our shit. Unlike you, who is complete stranger to us and you do come across as just another one of those guys who just talk shit.
So your a fan of the Frenchman? I've been following the scene since way before that shit too. Anyway, why don't we just bump up a few of the old KeSPA threads to paint a pretty picture about all their wrong-doings and the shit they did right?
We have tons of them man. We've been dissecting them for a long fucking time.
I also find it incredibly hard to believe that you only found out about TL recently considering how long we've been doing this stuff.
Are you a Korean who moved to Canada or what's the deal with you?
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
No, it's the fact that we've been around here for a while and we know our shit. Unlike you, who is complete stranger to us and you do come across as just another one of those guys who just talk shit.
So your a fan of the Frenchman? I've been following the scene since way before that shit too. Anyway, why don't we just bump up a few of the old KeSPA threads to paint a pretty picture about all their wrong-doings and the shit they did right?
We have tons of them man. We've been dissecting them for a long fucking time.
Ha! Pot calling Kettle black here.
Yes, you foreigners know your shit alright, but not as much as the Koreans on DCG or PGR21.
I just read posts here, but never bothered to make an account until recently.
And yes, I moved to Canada a few years ago and got my Canadian citizenship because I don't wanna go to the army.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
No, it's the fact that we've been around here for a while and we know our shit. Unlike you, who is complete stranger to us and you do come across as just another one of those guys who just talk shit.
So your a fan of the Frenchman? I've been following the scene since way before that shit too. Anyway, why don't we just bump up a few of the old KeSPA threads to paint a pretty picture about all their wrong-doings and the shit they did right?
We have tons of them man. We've been dissecting them for a long fucking time.
Ha! Pot calling Kettle black here.
Yes, you foreigners know your shit alright, but not as much as the Koreans on DCG or PGR21.
And yes, I moved to Canada a few years ago and got my Canadian citizenship because I don't wanna go to the army.
That's bullshit because some of us use those too and we do discuss what's going on with the Korean reactions. Sup? It's easy to talk shit. It's much harder to take an unbiased perspective. You are talking like TL.net was just born yesterday.
I'm aware of what the Korean netizens are saying, so are quite a few others.
Kespa is the teams, you can't say they have no say because Kespa literally doesn't exist without them. There's probably teams with more say in the organization, and of course when we say it is the teams that doesn't mean the players themselves but the sponsors/team owners are what makes up Kespa. They exist to serve the best interest of themselves, just like the team owners of any big league anywhere.
The difference here I guess is Gom can come and make a league, and those players did participate. You can't make your own football league and expect NFL teams to participate, but Kespa let their players participate in intel classics. They didn't sanction or legitimize it or whatever it is and it had no bearing on kespa ratings but it still existed and operated with players who were essentially paid by Kespa to play SC (via the teams), not by Gom.
Personally that sounds pretty charitable for a such an allegedly evil organisation Maybe they tried to extort Gom or maybe Gom played the victim a little bit, who knows.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
No, it's the fact that we've been around here for a while and we know our shit. Unlike you, who is complete stranger to us and you do come across as just another one of those guys who just talk shit.
So your a fan of the Frenchman? I've been following the scene since way before that shit too. Anyway, why don't we just bump up a few of the old KeSPA threads to paint a pretty picture about all their wrong-doings and the shit they did right?
We have tons of them man. We've been dissecting them for a long fucking time.
Ha! Pot calling Kettle black here.
Yes, you foreigners know your shit alright, but not as much as the Koreans on DCG or PGR21.
And yes, I moved to Canada a few years ago and got my Canadian citizenship because I don't wanna go to the army.
That's bullshit because some of us use those too and post shit from there too. Sup? It's easy to talk shit. It's much harder to take an unbiased perspective. You are talking like TL.net was just born yesterday.
I'm aware of what the Korean netizens are saying, so are quite a few others.
I never said TL.net was born yesterday, stop imagining things. Also, most of you get your info translated by few individuals. That means whether they intended or not, the translated info will be biased. I never undermined YOUR credibility on eSports related materials. But some of you old posters are slightly, mind you, only slightly, out of the loop, but I won't say who because that would be bannable offense. Let's drop this now and get back to the topic, this adds nothing to discussion.
The SC2 scene does not want a KeSPA from BW. I think it is accepted by many that KeSPA held too much control and power over all the other parties in the e-sports scene in Korea. What players want is freedom, choices, or at best, a negotiating factor. KeSPA itself is not evil, but it controlled the majority factors of the leagues in BW like a tyrant. Sure they may not have totally blocked foreigners from participating, but it's not like they gave that much support anyways. Going over to Korea as a foreigner player is way more of a huge investment than a Korean player, that's why you don't see many people do it. What some people disliked in the BW scene was that progamers barely had any negotiating card to involve themselves in the development and progress of the E-sport.other than practicing and participating in tournaments.
I never said that. Read the line again: You are talking like TL.net was just born yesterday.
In other words, not in the literal sense, but you definitely have this smug attitude thinking you know more than everyone else when I'm saying that isn't the case. pssst
Foreigners, what do we know?
I'm telling you to come off your high horse because your whole argument looks (not in the literal sense once again) something like this:
KeSPA = evil.
You make no argument and you are off-base. Like I said, in the BW section there are a ridiculous amount of threads with reports of Korean netizens reactions to all the so-called fiascos spawned by KeSPA.
We've heard all the arguments before. A few individuals? There used to be a lot more people to translate. Some of us just read those websites and not necessarily make posts here.
I am one of those people who try to be unbiased as possible. Nice to meet cha and you might want to avoid the second line in your last post. Just a suggestion.
On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote: [*]KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
No, it's the fact that we've been around here for a while and we know our shit. Unlike you, who is complete stranger to us and you do come across as just another one of those guys who just talk shit.
So your a fan of the Frenchman? I've been following the scene since way before that shit too. Anyway, why don't we just bump up a few of the old KeSPA threads to paint a pretty picture about all their wrong-doings and the shit they did right?
We have tons of them man. We've been dissecting them for a long fucking time.
Ha! Pot calling Kettle black here.
Yes, you foreigners know your shit alright, but not as much as the Koreans on DCG or PGR21.
And yes, I moved to Canada a few years ago and got my Canadian citizenship because I don't wanna go to the army.
That's bullshit because some of us use those too and post shit from there too. Sup? It's easy to talk shit. It's much harder to take an unbiased perspective. You are talking like TL.net was just born yesterday.
I'm aware of what the Korean netizens are saying, so are quite a few others.
I never said TL.net was born yesterday, stop imagining things. Also, most of you get your info translated by few individuals. That means whether they intended or not, the translated info will be biased. I never undermined YOUR credibility on eSports related materials. But some of you old posters are slightly, mind you, only slightly, out of the loop, but I won't say who because that would be bannable offense. Let's drop this now and get back to the topic, this adds nothing to discussion.
Please do not undermine the work of the translators. While it is true that meaning and intent can get lost in translations, you also can't imply that only Koreans understand the situation fully. If it were the case that nothing was able to be translated or interpreted with accuracy, communication would not exist in this world.
As for the topic, I think that this type of e-sports federation is a great idea. I think times are different and e-sports is more internationally recognized as a whole; a federation such as this one is necessary not only to facilitate communication, but also to bridge e-sports between different scenes. I'm glad the the federation is focused on foreign-Korean partnerships; it seems like the most practical way to approach this situation. I would be sad if Korean players who recently switched over to foreign teams were unable to participate. It's like being banned from your own country and it seems iffy...
Actually KeSPA stopped teams from competing in gomtv classic because Gretech refused to pay the bullshit league license fee to KeSPA, which KeSPA has no right to charge for it in the first place. Gretech was the only company that actually asked Blizzard before they started the classics, and when GOMTV classic was shut down, this prompted to Blizzard to step in, leading to the whole KeSPA vs Blizzard.
There's still no proof of this. On the Kespa board sits a member of every pro team. At no point did every pro team refuse to compete in any of Gom's BW ventures. Every GOM classic had Kespa players in it. At times teams chose not to allow their players to participate, or the players chose to do so on their own, because they had 2 other leagues and proleague to practice and compete in.
Blizzard didn't step in to save anyone from Kespa, they did it in their own interests.
In these eSports grounds, rumors tend to be mostly true here. Most korean eSports community know this is true. Teams have actually no say on any matter, it's all in tight control of KeSPA. You foreigners have no idea how things work in Korea.
Plexa and floor exercise follow the scene unlike you, who I have no recollection.
KeSPA are the team and sponsors for f sake. Floor exercise and Plexa have a better idea than you.
I've been following SC e-sports scene since the reign of Ssamjang and Bertrand, I just never bothered to hang around here.
You're a fool for weighing credibility with one's post count and affiliation of a fansite.
No, it's the fact that we've been around here for a while and we know our shit. Unlike you, who is complete stranger to us and you do come across as just another one of those guys who just talk shit.
So your a fan of the Frenchman? I've been following the scene since way before that shit too. Anyway, why don't we just bump up a few of the old KeSPA threads to paint a pretty picture about all their wrong-doings and the shit they did right?
We have tons of them man. We've been dissecting them for a long fucking time.
Ha! Pot calling Kettle black here.
Yes, you foreigners know your shit alright, but not as much as the Koreans on DCG or PGR21.
And yes, I moved to Canada a few years ago and got my Canadian citizenship because I don't wanna go to the army.
That's bullshit because some of us use those too and post shit from there too. Sup? It's easy to talk shit. It's much harder to take an unbiased perspective. You are talking like TL.net was just born yesterday.
I'm aware of what the Korean netizens are saying, so are quite a few others.
I never said TL.net was born yesterday, stop imagining things. Also, most of you get your info translated by few individuals. That means whether they intended or not, the translated info will be biased. I never undermined YOUR credibility on eSports related materials. But some of you old posters are slightly, mind you, only slightly, out of the loop, but I won't say who because that would be bannable offense. Let's drop this now and get back to the topic, this adds nothing to discussion.
Please do not undermine the work of the translators. While it is true that meaning and intent can get lost in translations, you also can't imply that only Koreans understand the situation fully. If it were the case that nothing was able to be translated or interpreted with accuracy, communication would not exist in this world.
As for the topic, I think that this type of e-sports federation is a great idea. I think times are different and e-sports is more internationally recognized as a whole; a federation such as this one is necessary not only to facilitate communication, but also to bridge e-sports between different scenes. I'm glad the the federation is focused on foreign-Korean partnerships; it seems like the most practical way to approach this situation. I would be sad if Korean players who recently switched over to foreign teams were unable to participate. It's like being banned from your own country and it seems iffy...
For me it seems the mainfunction of this federation is to try to protect the current (korean) sc2-teams.
If bw-teams/kespa are really much better fundet they could just buy the best and most liked sc2-players. This would dry out the current teams and shut down any competition with gsl/gom-tv for kespa and let them dominate the korean sc2-market.
This would probably mean more barriers between the korean and the foreign scene as it is less likely that koreans would compete in international tournaments and vice versa. That would be bad for the growth of the hole sc2-scene. At the moment it seems that international tournaments profit as much from korean participants as the korean sc2-scene profit from the huge foreign fanbase.
On March 31 2012 05:30 Jisall wrote: The Sith are behind this..
We must unite the jedi in order to survive.
O_O Scandal!
I definitely think as e-Sports and SC2 continues to grow you simply HAVE to have a governing organization of some kind. If KespA is the NFL of e-Sports then perhaps this new federation can be something akin to the players union (or team's union in this case).
On March 31 2012 05:57 jidolboy wrote: What power does this "e-Sports Federation" have? KeSPA was supported from government with rich sponsers
but right now all I see is bunch of low-funded sponsers gathering together to create some organization.
Essentially all the best current Sc2 players and GOM, the company without whom no one can broadcast the game in Korea.
You mean SC2 teams? Because the players can leave their team to join other team which might be KeSPA supported Also, OGN will broadcast SC2 sooner or later. I'm pretty sure you do know that too. So I see no power of this organization except to make a couple of game rules but nothing major
On March 31 2012 05:57 jidolboy wrote: What power does this "e-Sports Federation" have? KeSPA was supported from government with rich sponsers
but right now all I see is bunch of low-funded sponsers gathering together to create some organization.
Essentially all the best current Sc2 players and GOM, the company without whom no one can broadcast the game in Korea.
You mean SC2 teams? Because the players can leave their team to join other team which might be KeSPA supported Also, OGN will broadcast SC2 sooner or later. I'm pretty sure you do know that too. So I see no power of this organization except to make a couple of game rules but nothing major
It's nowhere near that cut and dry, Kespa might have way more than Sc2 teams but they don't necessarily have 30-50k salaries to go throwing at the 30-40 Code S level players. A lot of the players are know contracted too since the Puma incident.
And if they do literally just come in and buy everyone out then GOM is well within their right to tell them to fuck off. I really don't see Kespa being so brazen. FXO.Boss's posts suggest that we're going to have a 15 or so team Pro League.
You're invented an absolute worst case scenario when there's zero evidence to suggest it's likely, all the evidence suggests that so far Kespa has behaved very reasonably.
OGN will broadcast Pro League and OSL's, GOM will broadcast GSL's and GSTL. So far it seems like everyone is going to be playing in everything going along with FXO.Boss.
I think it's a terribly depressing state of affairs that KeSPA is so likely to undermine an international, community-driven sport that it forces the existing scene to suddenly make a move like this.
"It's nowhere near that cut and dry, Kespa might have way more than Sc2 teams but they don't necessarily have 30-50k salaries to go throwing at the 30-40 Code S level players. A lot of the players are know contracted too since the Puma incident."
Actually as you mentioned, if there are 15 teams in PL, then each team can buy 2-4 or more "Code S" players per team. They can afford it.( Or at least BW sponsers can afford them )
"And if they do literally just come in and buy everyone out then GOM is well within their right to tell them to fuck off. I really don't see Kespa being so brazen. FXO.Boss's posts suggest that we're going to have a 15 or so team Pro League."
After the contract ends, player can just leave the team and GOM can't say fuck off. You do know that?
"You're invented an absolute worst case scenario when there's zero evidence to suggest it's likely, all the evidence suggests that so far Kespa has behaved very reasonably"
I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
"OGN will broadcast Pro League and OSL's, GOM will broadcast GSL's and GSTL. So far it seems like everyone is going to be playing in everything going along with FXO.Boss."
On March 31 2012 01:22 dekibeki wrote: 1.4k word essay on my opinion + Show Spoiler +
Most of the complaining in this thread seems to come from the fact that foreigners will apparently be run out of sc2 tournaments. However as most of you point out, the foreigners will most likely not be able to play in these tournaments because they are not skilled enough, have scheduling conflicts and aren't part of a Korean team. People also seem to think that kespa is evil. However, I think that all of these issues comes back down to most of the foreign scene not being as skilled as the Koreans for the exception of the hate towards kespa.
The most skilled people so far in bw and sc2 with a few exceptions in sc2 (mainly huk as far as I know, I only follow bw) are Korean. As FXOboSs pointed out, this is because the Koreans seem to have a stronger work ethic, and put a lot of effort into practicing and playing the game. People such as TBLS are well known for their strong work ethic, putting in an amazing amount of time and effort into their game. Jaedong is probably the best example as back in oz, he had to carry his team through PL, while doing extremely well in individual leagues. This dedication is what leads people like Jaedong to be at the top of their games. However most foreigners are nowhere as dedicated as this, and also lack the infrastructure as a practice house which provides food, B teamers for practice partners and just a stable environment to work/game in. Many people who go to Korea for sc2 and stay in practice houses there improve dramatically because of the schedule and amount of work they put into the game. How well you play the game comes down to practice, and a natural skill cap. However to come to the level where you want to compete internationally, the main difference between players is just practice and the level of dedication and the amount of work you put in, something which as far as I can see, foreigners are lacking relative to their Korean competitors. Grrrr was one of the few foreigners that made it (and the most successful). He moved over there permanently joined a team, and competed in SPL and individual tournaments. He was skillful enough to gain his spot in the tournaments (although he apparently wasn't very dedicated) and he played in them.
The issues of scheduling and not being on a Korean team also come down to the players skill. Almost all of the top tournaments in sc2 and bw are in Korea. If you want to get to the top of the game, then it makes sense to go to Korea to compete. Although the tournaments outside of Korea can be big, their level of competition is nowhere as high, as someone such as TLO (no offense, you are part of TeamLiquid, I love you long time <3) has not qualified for for GSL code A (as far as I can see on tlpd/liquipedia) is invited to these foreigner tournaments. These events might be larger, more accessible and more fun then the Korean events, but are worse in regards to the skill of the players. For someone who is at the top levels of the game, the main tournament is the GSL, which is in korea. Thus they should base themselves in Korea, and not pay too much attention to the other tournaments, as they do not offer the level of competition that can be found in Korea. Then it also makes sense to be part of a Korean team, or at least a team based in Korea (FXO for example), and play most of the matches/tournaments in Korea. If this happens, then no scheduling conflicts should occur, and as they take part in their Korean tournaments, and do not worry about the smaller ones. To not be part of these tournaments suggests that your skill level is not high enough, or that you do not have the time/dedication or aren't aiming to try and get to the top.
The special consideration of foreigners to take part in top tournaments undermines the tournament, as it becomes more about gaining viewers then the top players trying to beat each other. If you want a special league where you can watch your favorite non GSL level player play, you can have it, but it should not be forced into the top level tournaments (GSL). These second level tournaments, as far as I know, do not seem to last for long. Tournaments such as the female individual leagues in bw had the same idea. You could watch your favourite female player, who would be more attractive then the male players (although Jaedong is better then Tossgirl), the main point of watching them play, was to watch the game. You do not tune into a stream to watch a video of that player as they play, you watch what is happening in the game. This means that in the long run, what is most important is the level of game play, as although Tossgirl was the best female bw player, she was just a b teamer in a mixed sex team, and thus the gameplay was not that interesting relative to the mixed sex tournaments. Also the ethnicity of the players does not matter. I watch bw, and I cheer for Jaedong. I don't cheer for him because he looks the nicest, I don't cheer for him for any other reason other then the fact that he is the best zerg there is, and I want to be like him. If a Croatian or an Australian player were to somehow make it into PL or an OSL, I would cheer for them, but not above Jaedong. I agree that foreigners in top tournaments can increase accessibility to the tournament, but the people who would watch the tournament just to watch their national player, would also watch a second rate tournament to watch their nation player. There is no need to special consideration for foreigners for top tournaments because if special consideration takes place you are undermining the tournament, and if you want an accessibly tournament which international viewers can easily watch, create your own secondary league, such as NASL. Most viewers come from watching top people play, not from watching the prettiest people play.
There also seems to be many people thinking that kespa is evil. I think this is wrong, and that almost everything they have done, it for the betterment of esports. They have made many controversial decisions, including disqualifying people for typing pp instead of ppp, however typing pp at the time was against the rules. Sure the rules were amazingly stupid, but before then kespa didn't realize that and probably no one else did. I do not think there would be anyone who complained to someone about how to pause ppp and only ppp had to be typed before the controversy. As soon as kespa realized that their rule was stupid, the fixed it. But before the rule was changed, the rule was a rule, and it was carried out. The players have a right to know that the rules are there and will be followed, not matter how stupid they seem or how great the backlash. When playing a game at the professional level you should know the rules, and expect to be punished if you break them. Shit happens. When several teams where disbanded last season, kespa stepped in and created a new team. Kespa does not care about individual people/teams, they care about the sport, and how best to keep the sport alive. As said before also, foreigners can play in kespa tournaments (Grrrr), they just have to be good enough to compete.
The lack of foreigners at a top level seems to be because of a lack of dedication and skill, and the special consideration of foreigners for these tournaments undermines the tournament. The banding together of the sc2 teams to try and fight a group which has the main interest of creating the top level of competition as they want to preserve themselves sounds like a fear of adaptation. You should base your business around the game, not the game around your business as without the game, your business is dead, but without your business the game will still live, although it might not be as large as it could be.
TL;DR -foreigners are not participating because they aren't good enough -most problems with participating in kespa tournaments for foreigners are again linked with not being good enough -kespa is not evil, they have their goal (spreading and maintenance of esports in Korea), and they are very single minded in achieving it. -special consideration for foreigners for tournaments undermines the tournaments -the top level of competition should be about the skill of the players, not about who is more popular -Jaedong is hotter then Tossgirl -the game is more important then your business, without the game your business would not exist. Without your business the game would be smaller, but still exist. The game has a greater power then your business, no amount of "we made the game this way" gives you the right to dictate how the game should evolve
were not asking for special considerations, but if a palyer like HuK who has proven to be able to fight with the big boys comes up and is legit as good as the players in the KeSPa event, we want him to be able to participate instead of KeSPA road blocking him
Why do you keep saying foreigners are getting road blocked? They're not and nor have they ever been roadblocked by Kespa. If they're good enough (which they never were) they could play. End of discussion. Any player who's good enough to even be close to Code S Koreans is on a team more than capable of paying for him to live in Korea in one of the partnership houses, so money is not an issue.
And whining about having to be on a Korean team is really ridiculous because the exact same rules apply in GSTL and even though in theory Huk, Sase, Naniwa and Jinro can play for their partner teams they're almost never picked. Huk has been used once and the other three have never been picked. So it's completely moot to complain about them not being able to play Pro League when they never play GSTL anyway. Boss has said that they will be able to play in OSL's because they are individual tournaments. Obviously they can't play in a team league without joining the teams that are playing in the league. Should Zenex players be able to play EG Masters for a foreign team just because poor ZenexLine feels left out that his teams isn't invited to the tournament?
What Kespa won't do is pander to foreign players and give them hand outs they don't deserve. Which is good because hopefully OGN treat their OSL's with respect and don't invite players like Sen and Idra for no good reason when they are not in the least bit good enough.
So the worst you can really say of Kespa at this stage is that they don't support affirmative action, which sounds great to me.
On March 31 2012 05:57 jidolboy wrote: What power does this "e-Sports Federation" have? KeSPA was supported from government with rich sponsers
but right now all I see is bunch of low-funded sponsers gathering together to create some organization.
Essentially all the best current Sc2 players and GOM, the company without whom no one can broadcast the game in Korea.
You mean SC2 teams? Because the players can leave their team to join other team which might be KeSPA supported Also, OGN will broadcast SC2 sooner or later. I'm pretty sure you do know that too. So I see no power of this organization except to make a couple of game rules but nothing major
It's nowhere near that cut and dry, Kespa might have way more than Sc2 teams but they don't necessarily have 30-50k salaries to go throwing at the 30-40 Code S level players. A lot of the players are know contracted too since the Puma incident.
And if they do literally just come in and buy everyone out then GOM is well within their right to tell them to fuck off. I really don't see Kespa being so brazen. FXO.Boss's posts suggest that we're going to have a 15 or so team Pro League.
You're invented an absolute worst case scenario when there's zero evidence to suggest it's likely, all the evidence suggests that so far Kespa has behaved very reasonably.
OGN will broadcast Pro League and OSL's, GOM will broadcast GSL's and GSTL. So far it seems like everyone is going to be playing in everything going along with FXO.Boss.
From my understanding Kespa is behaving reasonably because Blizzard legally threw down over them charging for Starcraft broadcasts without a some sort of agreement or contract. That and the fact that Blizzard controls Bnet 2.0 and their ability to play and show SC2. I don't believe Blizzard will let them cut anyone out of the SC2 community, because that is bad for Blizzard as a whole. Still, it is good for the teams to get together and work to make sure no one is getting pushed around.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
On March 31 2012 05:57 jidolboy wrote: What power does this "e-Sports Federation" have? KeSPA was supported from government with rich sponsers
but right now all I see is bunch of low-funded sponsers gathering together to create some organization.
Essentially all the best current Sc2 players and GOM, the company without whom no one can broadcast the game in Korea.
You mean SC2 teams? Because the players can leave their team to join other team which might be KeSPA supported Also, OGN will broadcast SC2 sooner or later. I'm pretty sure you do know that too. So I see no power of this organization except to make a couple of game rules but nothing major
It's nowhere near that cut and dry, Kespa might have way more than Sc2 teams but they don't necessarily have 30-50k salaries to go throwing at the 30-40 Code S level players. A lot of the players are know contracted too since the Puma incident.
And if they do literally just come in and buy everyone out then GOM is well within their right to tell them to fuck off. I really don't see Kespa being so brazen. FXO.Boss's posts suggest that we're going to have a 15 or so team Pro League.
You're invented an absolute worst case scenario when there's zero evidence to suggest it's likely, all the evidence suggests that so far Kespa has behaved very reasonably.
OGN will broadcast Pro League and OSL's, GOM will broadcast GSL's and GSTL. So far it seems like everyone is going to be playing in everything going along with FXO.Boss.
From my understanding Kespa is behaving reasonably because Blizzard legally threw down over them charging for Starcraft broadcasts without a some sort of agreement or contract. That and the fact that Blizzard controls Bnet 2.0 and their ability to play and show SC2. I don't believe Blizzard will let them cut anyone out of the SC2 community, because that is bad for Blizzard as a whole. Still, it is good for the teams to get together and work to make sure no one is getting pushed around.
Which means this might just work out great.
Everyone knows Kespa has a lot of positive to bring to the table (players, money, sponsors, professionalism, fanbase, Flash).
If Blizzard can reign in the negatives then we're all happy. Kespa have showed as well with the LoL league that they're open to foreign fans in 2012 if the audience makes it worthwhile, which obviously it is for Sc2.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2 if they want to be a top team
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
he didn't state at all what kespa is doing atm.. just what they as the other party is doing atm .
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
Ah you see. The current top SC2 players were former BW players. Why do you think they switched? It was because of money . I think MC or someone good even mentioned in a interview that they have become progamers to earn money. The reason they switched was to earn more money. What makes you think they wont switch if other team offered more salary? Also, it doesnt have to be quick to jump to other side. They have contract period so they can think about it and make the choice when contract ends
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
they might restrict the league to only there teams and completely stifle starcraft as much as they can
essentially the koreans not in KeSPAs teams would also be foreigners
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
There was no foreign players or foreign scene to even attract for BW. So you cant blame them for not caring about foreign scene.
Ultimately, its up to Blizzard how this plays out. Blizzard makes a percentage amount money off GSL, MLG, Dreamhack, IPL... everything that broadcasts SC2. And as we all know, there is more money in the western scene. If Blizzard doesn't find KeSPA able to produce a large enough profit directly to Blizzard, or enough interest to move copies of SC2 or Heart of the Swarm, they pull their IP rights from KeSPA. Unlike the previous 15 years of BW only being in Korea, SC2 is a much larger, much more profitable beast to Blizzard and if KeSPA doesn't provide what Blizzard have come to expect from current broadcasters (exposure and money.) Blizzard just pulls the plug.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
And we all know KeSPA should give a fuck about the small BW foreigner scene hm?.
if there is nothing 2 care about its hard for KeSPA 2 care about foreigners. but imo they should give some random BW scrub invite into top 16 OSL. ))))
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
KESPA players have a salary, paid vacations, they even take care of Violet Cancer treatment, They paid Flash surgery and recovery. they even get paid vacations to another country for the whole team. sc2 players are gonna jump ship in less than a second given the opportunity.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
Back in BW there was hardly any people though, back in the day the OSL restreams on TL would be hitting 1k viewers... nowadays shitty little daily tournaments attract twice that amount.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
Back in BW there was hardly any people though, back in the day the OSL restreams on TL would be hitting 1k viewers... nowadays shitty little daily tournaments attract twice that amount.
theyll probably reach out to foreign fans, but people are also pretty worried about them not reaching out to foreign players as well
IdrA HuK and Jinro already demonstrated that its possible for foreigners to compete in any Korean event and numerous foreigners have shown that there on the same level as many top koreans
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
Back in BW there was hardly any people though, back in the day the OSL restreams on TL would be hitting 1k viewers... nowadays shitty little daily tournaments attract twice that amount.
theyll probably reach out to foreign fans, but people are also pretty worried about them not reaching out to foreign players as well
IdrA HuK and Jinro already demonstrated that its possible for foreigners to compete in any Korean event and numerous foreigners have shown that there on the same level as many top koreans
I dont think we need to worry about that. I am pretty sure Blizz will do something regarding to that. Also, KeSPA probably knows SC2 is popular in foreign world. So they can hire English commentators and such if they want.
On March 31 2012 06:23 jidolboy wrote: I don't think I inveneted a worst case scenario, but realistic ones in my point of view
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
Back in BW there was hardly any people though, back in the day the OSL restreams on TL would be hitting 1k viewers... nowadays shitty little daily tournaments attract twice that amount.
theyll probably reach out to foreign fans, but people are also pretty worried about them not reaching out to foreign players as well
IdrA HuK and Jinro already demonstrated that its possible for foreigners to compete in any Korean event and numerous foreigners have shown that there on the same level as many top koreans
Well this is a really stupid post because foreigners have went and participated in Courage which is a Code B like tournament that gives you a progamer license)
But you have no evidence for it being realistic, you're just guessing.
And the 15 teams includes the current Sc2 teams. There's obviously going to be some movement at some point, but I really don't think it's likely the KT/SKT just buys DRG, MMA, MVP, Nestea and MKP straight off the bat.
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
Back in BW there was hardly any people though, back in the day the OSL restreams on TL would be hitting 1k viewers... nowadays shitty little daily tournaments attract twice that amount.
theyll probably reach out to foreign fans, but people are also pretty worried about them not reaching out to foreign players as well
IdrA HuK and Jinro already demonstrated that its possible for foreigners to compete in any Korean event and numerous foreigners have shown that there on the same level as many top koreans
Well this is a really stupid post because foreigners have went and participated in Courage which is a Code B like tournament that gives you a progamer license)
You also don't have evidence if this will happen or not. So stop blaming on lack of evidence. Even it's unlikely, KT or SKT CAN buy a couple of top players from SC2. HOWEVER, they probably won't and want to raise current BW players to a SC2 players because it is cheaper to do so
I have the evidence of fxo.boss who states that Kespa are behaving pretty reasonably.
Hi guys,
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Show me where he said KeSPA won't buy players or stop KeSPA from buying players. I only see him mentioning there will be 2 sides. e-Sports Federation with GOM or KeSPA with OGN
i think your underestimating the palyers though, some of them feel really indebted and loyal to there team, i mean for alot of them it must be like a family so i dont think there willing to jump ship so quickly
I don't see a problem if Kespa teams would "buy" out the big names. I mean good for the players. They would be paid better. Whats bad about that.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the 'problem' is that Kespa has a history of not giving a shit about foreign players or fans. Although it may be for the best of the korean players, it is not for the best for just about everything else.
Back in BW there was hardly any people though, back in the day the OSL restreams on TL would be hitting 1k viewers... nowadays shitty little daily tournaments attract twice that amount.
theyll probably reach out to foreign fans, but people are also pretty worried about them not reaching out to foreign players as well
IdrA HuK and Jinro already demonstrated that its possible for foreigners to compete in any Korean event and numerous foreigners have shown that there on the same level as many top koreans
Well this is a really stupid post because foreigners have went and participated in Courage which is a Code B like tournament that gives you a progamer license)
only the ones part of a korean team
Well that doesn't just concern foreign players but all of the GOM players then.
Seems like current SC2 teams are really sceared that someday they will have to go to serious work. BW players of course are not good at SC2 at this moment, but it won't be long before they will be as good as current SC2 players. Or much, much better.
KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
Is that why the same teams suddenly decided to boycott blizzcon that year for the first time, even for people like July who wanted to go and was not busy? The top 3 of the GOM classic season 3 was supposed to go but instead they had to go to all the way to the round of 16 to fill the 3rd spot.
motbob United States. September 14 2009 17:08. Posts 10102 PM Profile Blog Quote # OMG STX/KESPA/GOM DRAMA KEPT JULYZERG FROM GOING TO BLIZZCON too bad julyzerg can't goto blizzcon I know how much that boy wanted to go, he was next in line to go, after flash and iris. STX stood by KESPA, hate it when players gets left out because of politics. Blizzard holding hands with GOMTV isn't affecting KESPA at all.
On March 31 2012 07:44 wojciech wrote: Seems like current SC2 teams are really sceared that someday they will have to go to serious work. BW players of course are not good at SC2 at this moment, but it won't be long before they will be as good as current SC2 players. Or much, much better.
The current SC2 teams aren't scared of the the better BW players, they are terrified of the BW teams that have a lot more money than they do and waaaay more leverage and will just swoop in buying the top talent currently in SC2. It's no mystery that the SC2 Koreans think that foreigners are making money hand over fist and money is their primary motivation. Considering they know exactly how much BW players currently make, if they can have the upper hand even for a couple of months and salaried by an actual BW team they'll jump at that chance. Of course it could all depend if the BW teams would strictly want them to remain in Korea or if they can still venture out to foreign events. I do think that is what ultimately will be the difference between Kespa teams and the Esports Federation teams. Their foreign event involvement.
Either way, how this fleshes out is going to be insanely interesting.
On March 31 2012 07:44 wojciech wrote: Seems like current SC2 teams are really sceared that someday they will have to go to serious work. BW players of course are not good at SC2 at this moment, but it won't be long before they will be as good as current SC2 players. Or much, much better.
The current SC2 teams aren't scared of the the better BW players, they are terrified of the BW teams that have a lot more money than they do and waaaay more leverage and will just swoop in buying the top talent currently in SC2. It's no mystery that the SC2 Koreans think that foreigners are making money hand over fist and money is their primary motivation. Considering they know exactly how much BW players currently make, if they can have the upper hand even for a couple of months and salaried by an actual BW team they'll jump at that chance. Of course it could all depend if the BW teams would strictly want them to remain in Korea or if they can still venture out to foreign events. I do think that is what ultimately will be the difference between Kespa teams and the Esports Federation teams. Their foreign event involvement.
Either way, how this fleshes out is going to be insanely interesting.
On March 31 2012 07:44 wojciech wrote: Seems like current SC2 teams are really sceared that someday they will have to go to serious work. BW players of course are not good at SC2 at this moment, but it won't be long before they will be as good as current SC2 players. Or much, much better.
The current SC2 teams aren't scared of the the better BW players, they are terrified of the BW teams that have a lot more money than they do and waaaay more leverage and will just swoop in buying the top talent currently in SC2. It's no mystery that the SC2 Koreans think that foreigners are making money hand over fist and money is their primary motivation. Considering they know exactly how much BW players currently make, if they can have the upper hand even for a couple of months and salaried by an actual BW team they'll jump at that chance. Of course it could all depend if the BW teams would strictly want them to remain in Korea or if they can still venture out to foreign events. I do think that is what ultimately will be the difference between Kespa teams and the Esports Federation teams. Their foreign event involvement.
Either way, how this fleshes out is going to be insanely interesting.
if this was possible EG would ahve more Koreans
EG's best players are Koreans. They've acquired, what, two Koreans in the last 6 months, while letting go of their weaker foreign players? I think they're well on the way to Koreanizing their roster.
On March 31 2012 07:44 wojciech wrote: Seems like current SC2 teams are really sceared that someday they will have to go to serious work. BW players of course are not good at SC2 at this moment, but it won't be long before they will be as good as current SC2 players. Or much, much better.
The current SC2 teams aren't scared of the the better BW players, they are terrified of the BW teams that have a lot more money than they do and waaaay more leverage and will just swoop in buying the top talent currently in SC2. It's no mystery that the SC2 Koreans think that foreigners are making money hand over fist and money is their primary motivation. Considering they know exactly how much BW players currently make, if they can have the upper hand even for a couple of months and salaried by an actual BW team they'll jump at that chance. Of course it could all depend if the BW teams would strictly want them to remain in Korea or if they can still venture out to foreign events. I do think that is what ultimately will be the difference between Kespa teams and the Esports Federation teams. Their foreign event involvement.
Either way, how this fleshes out is going to be insanely interesting.
if this was possible EG would ahve more Koreans
EG's best players are Koreans. They've acquired, what, two Koreans in the last 6 months, while letting go of their weaker foreign players? I think they're well on the way to Koreanizing their roster.
they picked up one essentialyl teamless korean and slayers let them have one of there koreans
so id say they arent at all moving towards koreanizing there roster at all
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned G7 yet, well not really, teamliquid is about starcraft not esports but whatever ... http://www.g7teams.com/page/frontpage/ That's where your foreign teams are. It's dead by the way.
On March 31 2012 08:44 Marti wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned G7 yet, well not really, teamliquid is about starcraft not esports but whatever ... http://www.g7teams.com/page/frontpage/ That's where your foreign teams are. It's dead by the way.
Sounds like a smart move by them, I'm curious how the foreigner teams will respond. If they join or not.
A storm is brewing with Kespa on the horizon! I see a lot of potential e-Drama to be had, but hopefully most of it can be avoided so the transition works out smoothly.
For those talking about SC2Con, this is an organization formed with completely different goal in mind. Don't compare the two please. This is good for esports
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
i knew KeSPA were scumbags but never knew the fulle xtent
Well when it comes down to it, I'd rather be watching TaekBangLeesSang play SC2 than the current SC2 players. You just know the quality of games will be higher from BW players once they get established. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just stating an opinion.
On March 30 2012 23:31 Forikorder wrote: i KesPA tries to be too insular and refuse all foreigners right to participate on the pro-league cant Blizz step up and say "yo, thats no good you have to give foreigners a chance to participate"?
once Kespa gets the right to run their tournament, Blizzard will not really have anything they can do. You can't tell them how they can and can't run their tournament.
Also, why is it just assumed that Kespa is pure evil and are going to run the foreigners out of town? Back in BW if a foreign player had enough skill/determination he could participate in their games... just no one had enough skill to be past the B-teams.
Agreed. KeSPA never blocked foreigners from their tournament.
If anything, KeSPA is more likely to try to invite foreigners to their league to get a boost in worldwide viewership.
(Edit - I mean now there is a major foreign scene. Back during BW, there was barely any scene outside of Korea at all.)
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Wow... for every person defending KeSPA...there seems to be 10 articles written to the contrary. I am not liking where this is going...
I hope Plexa can respond to this article...seems like very damning evidence against KeSPA. (i.e. you can see the citations from the photo)
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
Actually a'lot of that was in there... but i'm not going to go out of my way and quote for you because you clearly failed to inform your self before you posted.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
relevant parts
28. After SC2 released, KeSPA did not allow SC players to touch the game.
32. KeSPA pays online media/journalism organisations to start making articles dissing SC2.
(lists of SC2 hating articles and funny part is the reporter/journalist is the same dude) *Blizzard, 'Pressuring' Korea with its 'SC2' release up coming. *[GAME] - Dissapointing reviews of SC2's early stages *Blizzard says 'We must Destroy SC1 for SC2 to live! *'Warning' SC2, Your computer may break down. *'SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar *Where has the fame of SC2 gone? After 4 weeks of sales... (they compared to food getting cold) *NaDa Lee, Yun-Yeol moving to SC2. Once an honored gamer, now a prize money hunter. *SC2's popularity down the sink. How Deep?
43. As soon as NaDa moved to the SC2 scene, KeSPA had 'Deleted' NaDa's database. Later they re-uploaded it due to the fan's anger and they replied back as a 'Glitch' in the system.
38. Players like NaDa and SlayerS_BoxeR were treated as 'traitors' for leaving SC contracts
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
Google translate is terrible but it seems to say that KeSPA was not in favor of SC2.
I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but that article is actually about KeSPA-biased unfounded claim about how Blizzard wants BW scene to die in order to make SC2 a success.
To all the smart people in this thread, who has been with been following bw for atleast a few years before sc2 was released, you probably know how crazy Kespa can be, so I have a question for you:
Do you think that, if Kespa takes over sc2, like with bw and every other esport in Korea, that they'd still let gsl be running as another tournament in Korea? Or gom be involved at all?
On March 31 2012 09:51 MadNeSs wrote: To all the smart people in this thread, who has been with been following bw for atleast a few years before sc2 was released, you probably know how crazy Kespa can be, so I have a question for you:
Do you think that, if Kespa takes over sc2, like with bw and every other esport in Korea, that they'd still let gsl be running as another tournament in Korea? Or gom be involved at all?
they dont really have a choice in the matter, they have no way to shut down Gom and Gom is Blizzards favourite horse, they try to shut down Gom and Blizz shuts them down
this isnt like SC2, no matter how powerful KeSPA gets blizz can flip a switch and they cant paly SC2
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
32. KeSPA pays online media/journalism organisations to start making articles dissing SC2.
(lists of SC2 hating articles and funny part is the reporter/journalist is the same dude) *Blizzard, 'Pressuring' Korea with its 'SC2' release up coming. *[GAME] - Dissapointing reviews of SC2's early stages *Blizzard says 'We must Destroy SC1 for SC2 to live! *'Warning' SC2, Your computer may break down. *'SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar *Where has the fame of SC2 gone? After 4 weeks of sales... (they compared to food getting cold) *NaDa Lee, Yun-Yeol moving to SC2. Once an honored gamer, now a prize money hunter. *SC2's popularity down the sink. How Deep?
43. As soon as NaDa moved to the SC2 scene, KeSPA had 'Deleted' NaDa's database. Later they re-uploaded it due to the fan's anger and they replied back as a 'Glitch' in the system.
38. Players like NaDa and SlayerS_BoxeR were treated as 'traitors' for leaving SC contracts
I dont get it. Were all of those articles paid by kespa? Because some of them were true. If they did then why did you think they did all of those? Tell me. Blizz sued Kespa for an IP right thingy that they couldnt even explain. If the case never happend then this would have never happend.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
This is an excellent ammunition against those ignorant KeSPA supporters.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
relevant parts
28. After SC2 released, KeSPA did not allow SC players to touch the game.
32. KeSPA pays online media/journalism organisations to start making articles dissing SC2.
(lists of SC2 hating articles and funny part is the reporter/journalist is the same dude) *Blizzard, 'Pressuring' Korea with its 'SC2' release up coming. *[GAME] - Dissapointing reviews of SC2's early stages *Blizzard says 'We must Destroy SC1 for SC2 to live! *'Warning' SC2, Your computer may break down. *'SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar *Where has the fame of SC2 gone? After 4 weeks of sales... (they compared to food getting cold) *NaDa Lee, Yun-Yeol moving to SC2. Once an honored gamer, now a prize money hunter. *SC2's popularity down the sink. How Deep?
43. As soon as NaDa moved to the SC2 scene, KeSPA had 'Deleted' NaDa's database. Later they re-uploaded it due to the fan's anger and they replied back as a 'Glitch' in the system.
38. Players like NaDa and SlayerS_BoxeR were treated as 'traitors' for leaving SC contracts
I dont get it. Were all of those articles paid by kespa? Because some of them were true. If they did then why did you think they did all of those? Tell me. Blizz sued Kespa for an IP right thingy that they couldnt even explain. If the case never happend then this would have never happend.
Blizzards case was pretty simple and they were going to win. You cant sell broadcasting rights to something that isnt yours to sell.
I can't believe people actually support KESPA... if it were up to me. I would never give them any rights to broadcast SC2 for what they have done to SC2 in it's early stages, they basically tried to kill it off in an attempt to cripple the SC2 scene so the BW scene would strive a bit longer.
Did YOU even read it? What makes you hate them so much? That post contained Blizz vs Kespa situation and kespa's strict rules. Not killing SC2 to make BW live longer.
relevant parts
28. After SC2 released, KeSPA did not allow SC players to touch the game.
32. KeSPA pays online media/journalism organisations to start making articles dissing SC2.
(lists of SC2 hating articles and funny part is the reporter/journalist is the same dude) *Blizzard, 'Pressuring' Korea with its 'SC2' release up coming. *[GAME] - Dissapointing reviews of SC2's early stages *Blizzard says 'We must Destroy SC1 for SC2 to live! *'Warning' SC2, Your computer may break down. *'SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar *Where has the fame of SC2 gone? After 4 weeks of sales... (they compared to food getting cold) *NaDa Lee, Yun-Yeol moving to SC2. Once an honored gamer, now a prize money hunter. *SC2's popularity down the sink. How Deep?
43. As soon as NaDa moved to the SC2 scene, KeSPA had 'Deleted' NaDa's database. Later they re-uploaded it due to the fan's anger and they replied back as a 'Glitch' in the system.
38. Players like NaDa and SlayerS_BoxeR were treated as 'traitors' for leaving SC contracts
I dont get it. Were all of those articles paid by kespa? Because some of them were true. If they did then why did you think they did all of those? Tell me. Blizz sued Kespa for an IP right thingy that they couldnt even explain. If the case never happend then this would have never happend.
none of those were true, SC2 had great reviews from the get go, and if anyone tried pressuring it was KeSPA when they tried to slap a mature label on SC2, SC2 is one of the most computer firendly games so theres no way it would cause a computer to break down or fry and SC2 didnt go down in popularity after 4 weeks it only went up
and how is insulting NaDa by calling him jsut a prize money hunter true?
On March 31 2012 09:56 jidolboy wrote: I dont get it. Were all of those articles paid by kespa? Because some of them were true. If they did then why did you think they did all of those? Tell me. Blizz sued Kespa for an IP right thingy that they couldnt even explain. If the case never happend then this would have never happend.
It's pretty much confirmed by industry insiders, and yes, some of them are true, but they were greatly exaggerated, and some of them even pulled faked statistics. And the reason why they pulled this BS was because they wanted to milk the BW scene to the last drop. And SC franchise belongs to Blizzard, period. You can't sell related content without permission from the creators themselves, it's simple as that, basic copyright 101.
SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar
This is true and it was one of the first bugs in the game. There is no FPS cap on the menu (this was after release, I remember reading it on battle.net forums) and if you leave the game on overnight, it will probably fry your video card (since it's running everything at the max due to no FPS cap). Blizzard quickly patched it though but it was present in the release version of SC2. Now of course they did try to use that issue to scare people away from SC2 but that was an issue with SC2 in the past.
@The KeSPA article - The reason why they did that was because:
1. It all started with Blizzard wanting KeSPA to switch to SC2 (and pay fees).
2. KeSPA didn't want this.
3. Basically it's tug of war between Blizzard is wrong vs KeSPA is wrong (of course it ended now after the lawsuit ended last year).
Anyway Blizzard did want KeSPA to switch to SC2 or pay fees regarding BW. In Mr. Chae interview, Mr. Chae stated once HotS is released, all tournaments has to switch to the game regardless of balance. That's the same deal with KeSPA and BW apparently.
KeSPA of course is now apparently switching to SC2 because:
1. Blizzard wants them to (maybe providing incentives that weren't there in the past).
2. And because the potential of more money (which is why last page I stated they'll probably welcome foreigners). They already have an official channel setup for foreigners (they're trying to obtain official English casters as well apparently).
Before the lawsuit, KeSPA + Blizzard got along or were at least neutral (when SC2 was first announced, they even got Dustin Browder to go there and do interviews with them and they all seemed to get along).
Ah ha, I was wondering how long it would take somebody to actually post that thread. Once again, that is only one thread and super biased. The responses are actually much better in it than the actual steam let off by the Korean.
That is only but one thread.
On March 31 2012 09:51 MadNeSs wrote: To all the smart people in this thread, who has been with been following bw for atleast a few years before sc2 was released, you probably know how crazy Kespa can be, so I have a question for you:
Do you think that, if Kespa takes over sc2, like with bw and every other esport in Korea, that they'd still let gsl be running as another tournament in Korea? Or gom be involved at all?
It really depends on how they do the scheduling. Considering MBC is out of the hunt I don't see it being an issue. There's not much too speculate. Just have to wait and see what happens.
I feel the emergence of this organization will create segregation among the Korean SC2 community once kespa makes the switch to SC2. I'm not too familiar with the politics, but I think it will be interesting for competition. As many have already pointed out, the potential of having 2 different individual leagues and perhaps even 2 different team leagues promotes competition between the two organizations and will probably fuel the growth of SC2 in korea. As a spectator, I feel that the esports federation represents the current SC2 players, while kespa will represent the current BW players after they transition into SC2 (assuming this transition is inevitable). The thought of current SC2 players playing against former BW players is definitely something I look forward to seeing, especially in team leagues. It may even put an end to the whole "elephant in the room"
SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar
This is true and it was one of the first bugs in the game. There is no FPS cap on the menu (this was after release, I remember reading it on battle.net forums) and if you leave the game on overnight, it will probably fry your video card (since it's running everything at the max due to no FPS cap). Blizzard quickly patched it though but it was present in the release version of SC2. Now of course they did try to use that issue to scare people away from SC2 but that was an issue with SC2 in the past.
@The KeSPA article - The reason why they did that was because:
1. It all started with Blizzard wanting KeSPA to switch to SC2 (and pay fees).
2. KeSPA didn't want this.
3. Basically it's tug of war between Blizzard is wrong vs KeSPA is wrong (of course it ended now after the lawsuit ended last year).
Anyway Blizzard did want KeSPA to switch to SC2 or pay fees regarding BW. In Mr. Chae interview, Mr. Chae stated once HotS is released, all tournaments has to switch to the game regardless of balance. That's the same deal with KeSPA and BW apparently.
KeSPA of course is now apparently switching to SC2 because:
1. Blizzard wants them to (maybe providing incentives that weren't there in the past).
2. And because the potential of more money (which is why last page I stated they'll probably welcome foreigners). They already have an official channel setup for foreigners (they're trying to obtain official English casters as well apparently).
Before the lawsuit, KeSPA + Blizzard got along or were at least neutral (when SC2 was first announced, they even got Dustin Browder to go there and do interviews with them and they all seemed to get along).
Didn't Blizzard state at Blizzcon that tournaments could stick with WOL and didn't have to switch to HOTS?
SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar
This is true and it was one of the first bugs in the game. There is no FPS cap on the menu (this was after release, I remember reading it on battle.net forums) and if you leave the game on overnight, it will probably fry your video card (since it's running everything at the max due to no FPS cap). Blizzard quickly patched it though but it was present in the release version of SC2. Now of course they did try to use that issue to scare people away from SC2 but that was an issue with SC2 in the past.
@The KeSPA article - The reason why they did that was because:
1. It all started with Blizzard wanting KeSPA to switch to SC2 (and pay fees).
2. KeSPA didn't want this.
3. Basically it's tug of war between Blizzard is wrong vs KeSPA is wrong (of course it ended now after the lawsuit ended last year).
Anyway Blizzard did want KeSPA to switch to SC2 or pay fees regarding BW. In Mr. Chae interview, Mr. Chae stated once HotS is released, all tournaments has to switch to the game regardless of balance. That's the same deal with KeSPA and BW apparently.
KeSPA of course is now apparently switching to SC2 because:
1. Blizzard wants them to (maybe providing incentives that weren't there in the past).
2. And because the potential of more money (which is why last page I stated they'll probably welcome foreigners). They already have an official channel setup for foreigners (they're trying to obtain official English casters as well apparently).
Before the lawsuit, KeSPA + Blizzard got along or were at least neutral (when SC2 was first announced, they even got Dustin Browder to go there and do interviews with them and they all seemed to get along).
Didn't Blizzard state at Blizzcon that tournaments could stick with WOL and didn't have to switch to HOTS?
Yes, you're correct. It's in the freaking FAQ on the official site.
SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar
This is true and it was one of the first bugs in the game. There is no FPS cap on the menu (this was after release, I remember reading it on battle.net forums) and if you leave the game on overnight, it will probably fry your video card (since it's running everything at the max due to no FPS cap). Blizzard quickly patched it though but it was present in the release version of SC2. Now of course they did try to use that issue to scare people away from SC2 but that was an issue with SC2 in the past.
@The KeSPA article - The reason why they did that was because:
1. It all started with Blizzard wanting KeSPA to switch to SC2 (and pay fees).
2. KeSPA didn't want this.
3. Basically it's tug of war between Blizzard is wrong vs KeSPA is wrong (of course it ended now after the lawsuit ended last year).
Anyway Blizzard did want KeSPA to switch to SC2 or pay fees regarding BW. In Mr. Chae interview, Mr. Chae stated once HotS is released, all tournaments has to switch to the game regardless of balance. That's the same deal with KeSPA and BW apparently.
KeSPA of course is now apparently switching to SC2 because:
1. Blizzard wants them to (maybe providing incentives that weren't there in the past).
2. And because the potential of more money (which is why last page I stated they'll probably welcome foreigners). They already have an official channel setup for foreigners (they're trying to obtain official English casters as well apparently).
Before the lawsuit, KeSPA + Blizzard got along or were at least neutral (when SC2 was first announced, they even got Dustin Browder to go there and do interviews with them and they all seemed to get along).
Didn't Blizzard state at Blizzcon that tournaments could stick with WOL and didn't have to switch to HOTS?
Well I'm not sure then, maybe that only applies to smaller tournaments?
At least for the GSL, Mr. Chae says GSL has to switch right away:
Q:Once HotS comes out, are we switching straight away or waiting for a while? A: We will switch once the ongoing league is finished. The rules say we must use the latest version but we can’t switch mid-league.
Not sure if this applies to MLG or other tournaments but at least we know for sure it applies to GSL.
SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar
This is true and it was one of the first bugs in the game. There is no FPS cap on the menu (this was after release, I remember reading it on battle.net forums) and if you leave the game on overnight, it will probably fry your video card (since it's running everything at the max due to no FPS cap). Blizzard quickly patched it though but it was present in the release version of SC2. Now of course they did try to use that issue to scare people away from SC2 but that was an issue with SC2 in the past.
@The KeSPA article - The reason why they did that was because:
1. It all started with Blizzard wanting KeSPA to switch to SC2 (and pay fees).
2. KeSPA didn't want this.
3. Basically it's tug of war between Blizzard is wrong vs KeSPA is wrong (of course it ended now after the lawsuit ended last year).
Anyway Blizzard did want KeSPA to switch to SC2 or pay fees regarding BW. In Mr. Chae interview, Mr. Chae stated once HotS is released, all tournaments has to switch to the game regardless of balance. That's the same deal with KeSPA and BW apparently.
KeSPA of course is now apparently switching to SC2 because:
1. Blizzard wants them to (maybe providing incentives that weren't there in the past).
2. And because the potential of more money (which is why last page I stated they'll probably welcome foreigners). They already have an official channel setup for foreigners (they're trying to obtain official English casters as well apparently).
Before the lawsuit, KeSPA + Blizzard got along or were at least neutral (when SC2 was first announced, they even got Dustin Browder to go there and do interviews with them and they all seemed to get along).
Didn't Blizzard state at Blizzcon that tournaments could stick with WOL and didn't have to switch to HOTS?
Well I'm not sure then, maybe that only applies to smaller tournaments?
At least for the GSL, Mr. Chae says GSL has to switch right away:
Q:Once HotS comes out, are we switching straight away or waiting for a while? A: We will switch once the ongoing league is finished. The rules say we must use the latest version but we can’t switch mid-league.
Not sure if this applies to MLG or other tournaments but at least we know for sure it applies to GSL.
thats probably a specific part only for Gom since Blizzard gave them exclusive broadcasting rights and would want Gom to switch to HoTS since if they staed on WoL everyone would stay on WoL
Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
It depends. If EG and Dignitas or another conglomerate esports team join, then it could be a gateway to sort of organize an communitcation channel between teams, tournaments and sponors across multiple games.
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
It depends. If EG and Dignitas or another conglomerate esports team join, then it could be a gateway to sort of organize an communitcation channel between teams, tournaments and sponors across multiple games.
I wrote an article years ago (mid 2009) about the plausibility of a governing body for eSports. I'm not going paste the whole article, but I'll summarize some of the points from it:
Games
Organizations that are running events and tournaments tend to support different types of games all over the place, leading to some very popular eSport games, and some niche ones as well. A governing body and the organizations that enlist to be regulated can establish a base set of games that they may support, and must seek approval for any future eSport games.
This can be expanded much further with potential developer support, and a contractual basis that allows gamers some stability in having their specific game supported for a certain time frame. I could go on...
Scheduling
We all know how much we hate big tournaments going on at the same time. Not only does that reflect badly on each event, as they are losing viewers to one another, but it also suck for the fan, because one person cannot simply take in all the available content and information going on in a weekend.
A governing body would do well to keep organizations and their events separate, and have a proper calendar setup to avoid such conflicts. An added bonus would be the due diligence in keeping apprised of international events, holidays, and even extending so far as to be wary of potential players and their university/college commitments like exams.
Universality
In this notion, universality encompasses the aforementioned (stipulations surrounding games and scheduling), as well as developing the necessary rules, regulations that govern maps used in certain games, tournament formats, and other factors.
It can be extended to statistical analysis, specifications on broadcasting, and an instituted formula to achieve a proper player/team rankings throughout the year from all the events supported by the governing body. The aspect of universality and a proper number of organizations enlisted within the governing body will also lend more credibility for the interest of potential sponsors as well.
---
The main issue with a governing body, and what I ended up concluding, was that it was implausible and impractical. Each business and organization involved in eSports is out for their individual gain, profit, and expansion. While positive in many areas, a governing body is more likely to collectively diminish their potential and that will be the crux of their disapproval in enlisting. As much as we'd like to think that organizations can put those issues aside and do it for the "good of eSports," it's not something I personally see happening.
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
Pretty sure I read from an old thread somewhere that progaming license means paying less taxes ~3% iirc in total winnings. Not sure how much you pay without said license.
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
Not entirely. I clearly remember they broadcasted Sudden Attack and Kart Rider games in the Old Boy series. So it's not just BW. Probably more (someone will have to verify this).
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
Sounds like eSports-Federation to me. (Making starcraft only esports) Anyway kespa probably didnt supported it cause it wasnt popular to begin with. Right now they're having proleague for SF(clone of CS) and BW. They also support LoL
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
Up until recently BW was the only game you could consider a sport.
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
Sounds like eSports-Federation to me. Anyway kespa probably didnt supported it cause it wasnt popular to begin with. Right now they're having proleague for SF(clone of CS) and BW
the esports federation isnt being made to make and sponsor events, KeSPA was
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
Sounds like eSports-Federation to me. Anyway kespa probably didnt supported it cause it wasnt popular to begin with. Right now they're having proleague for SF(clone of CS) and BW
the esports federation isnt being made to make and sponsor events, KeSPA was
On March 31 2012 10:56 domane wrote: Hmm. Calling themselves "e-sports Federation" even though they are only involved in SC2. Then again, I think KeSPA is only involved in BW and counterstrike (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
It leaves some room for potential growth and sounds more international (thus implying greater prestige?).
from what i heard KeSPA wasnt involved in CS and only bothered with BW since they thought it was profitable
the federation is really only a way for teams to be able to negotiate with KeSPA so i doubt non-SC2 teams will join
I see CS and many other games that are recognized by KeSPA for the semi/progamer licenses.
oh sorry i didnt know, so what sort of salary do they make and where can i go watch KeSPA sponsored CS events?
It doesn't say they're broadcasting or sponsoring CS events. I'm merely pointing out that they recognize CS as an official e-sports title in which you can have attain a progaming license. <--- Does not mean KeSPA automatically runs/sponsors these e-sports titles.
oh, so they say "oh ya thats an esport" then dont actually do anything to in any way support or assist it in being an E-Sport? so in other words they only treat BW as an e-sport and let every other game pretend to be one?
Sounds like eSports-Federation to me. Anyway kespa probably didnt supported it cause it wasnt popular to begin with. Right now they're having proleague for SF(clone of CS) and BW
the esports federation isnt being made to make and sponsor events, KeSPA was
Then what is this New Federation supposed to do?
work to rpevent KeSPa from bullying everyone by acting as the united voice of the current SC2 teams i think
everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned. In other words when blizzard wants to put KESPA in its place they will and they wont have any resistance either money can do amazing things lol and too bad for KESPA they'll be broke the minute blizzard wants it to happen.
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
Blizzard didnt want them to be using SC and BW for pretty much the entire 12 years and KeSPA jsut kept saying its public content and stuff like that so they never had to pay Blizz a cent for using it
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
There are a few threads on the issue here is one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128517 basically it's like you say. Except from the Korean point of view and can be seen as foreign company trying to impose their laws on a Korean compagny. Search Blizzard Kespa for a few threads on the issue.
Edit: It can be a heated topic for people seeing it either in Blizzard favor as the creator, or Kespa as the one who did all the heavy lifting to raise E-sports. Of course Kespa acknowledges Blizzard but how much royalty and on what is a issue for both parties.
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
There are a few threads on the issue here is one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128517 basically it's like you say. Except from the Korean point of view and can be seen as foreign company trying to impose their laws on a Korean compagny. Search Blizzard Kespa for a few threads on the issue.
actually i was about to ask if there were a court case would it be in a korean court or american because maybe blizzard could fight for it be in an american court with it bieng there property and all.
Edit: i agree but i dont think blizzards goal is to get royalties there goal is to help esports grow which in the future will translate to more of there games being sold except kespa sees things differently to say the least so i guess the entire sc2 community can start sending hate mail to kespa because they are quite possibly the primary reason we dont have LAN FUCKIN KESPA LOL
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
There are a few threads on the issue here is one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128517 basically it's like you say. Except from the Korean point of view and can be seen as foreign company trying to impose their laws on a Korean compagny. Search Blizzard Kespa for a few threads on the issue.
actually i was about to ask if there were a court case would it be in a korean court or american because maybe blizzard could fight for it be in an american court with it bieng there property and all.
i think there SOL there since its a korean company doing it in Korea
I don't understand this sentiment about foreigners getting "locked out" due to kespa's sudden rise to influence. I think this idea of gomtv championing the foreigner cause is one that is wrongly made. The only reason why gomtv bothers with the foreign scene at all is because that's where the money is at. Starcraft 2 is pretty dead in Korea and BW dying a slow death. Even if BW fans suddenly become assimilated into SC2 (and that's a BIG if) that doesn't change the fact that Korea will eventually never be able to support a large starcraft scene on its own, like it has in the past. In short, Kespa NEEDS foreigners to have starcraft be viable.
What many people don't realize is that the youth culture is vastly different in Korea than what it was over a decade ago. More so than ever before, you have a veritable army of pop icons dictating to kids how they should be living, and this new pop culture is one that frowns upon staying home and playing computer games. Seoul is a city that never sleeps and the night life in Korea has only gotten better, as well as becoming even more accessible to Korean youth. This is compounded by the fact that alcohol is dirt cheap (no $8 dollar 12oz beers there, try a 2$ bottle of soju instead). 18 is the legal age to drink and is very loosely enforced. I've drank on a couple of occasions with 15-16 year old kids masquerading as adults, not that they really needed do much masquerading to begin with. More people aren't playing Starcraft because there is simply other stuff for kids to do nowadays to spend their time. I think this is the reason why more casual social (rather than highly competitive) games are rising to prominence, Koreans are transforming into more social creatures...
I'm relatively concerned that SlayerS is not apart of this federation. I'm sure they will come around, but that's the only weird thing about this entire situation. FXOBoss, do you have any input on the SlayerS situation?
The point of this association is purely to show that we have done the hard yards as organisations in Korea and abroad to get sc2 to where it is now. It would be improper for an organisation such as Kespa to then say "join us or die".
It also promotes the ability to run 2 leagues in Korea so that the players have more incentive to train hard. If there is no resistance or discussion between the two sides, there will be heavy schedule overlaps between proleague and GSL. It would also mean you would have to pick which side you wanted to be part of.
It 'potentially' would mean an end to foreigners in korea as well. Which none of us want of course.
I hope this helps.
Regards
FXOBoSs
Why did SlayerS choose not be be involved?
When has slayers ever been involved with other teams? If you look throughout history, they have always done their own thing.
Wait, how long has SlayerS existed? This sentence was typed as if they weren't created in 2010.
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
Blizzard didnt want them to be using SC and BW for pretty much the entire 12 years and KeSPA jsut kept saying its public content and stuff like that so they never had to pay Blizz a cent for using it
KeSPA was charging OGN and MBCgame to broadcast SC: BW, which is something KeSPA legally cannot do. That is were Blizzard stepped in and said, "Yo, you cannot charge other people for using something which you do not own." Then went to court, 3 times. And settled behind closed doors. I'm sure Blizzards pockets were much heavier when they left. Coincidentally, after that debacle, MBCgame stopped showing SC:BW because they went broke, and 3 BW teams were forced to disband.
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
Blizzard didnt want them to be using SC and BW for pretty much the entire 12 years and KeSPA jsut kept saying its public content and stuff like that so they never had to pay Blizz a cent for using it
KeSPA was charging OGN and MBCgame to broadcast SC: BW, which is something KeSPA legally cannot do. That is were Blizzard stepped in and said, "Yo, you cannot charge other people for using something which you do not own." Then went to court, 3 times. And settled behind closed doors. I'm sure Blizzards pockets were much heavier when they left. Coincidentally, after that debacle, MBCgame stopped showing SC:BW because they went broke, and 3 BW teams were forced to disband.
MBC didnt go broke... they used the money for another Kpop channel cause KPop > esports. and "forced"? u make it sound like someone told them disband or something bad will happen. the teams jsut didnt make enough money anymore for them 2 sponsor them.
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
Blizzard didnt want them to be using SC and BW for pretty much the entire 12 years and KeSPA jsut kept saying its public content and stuff like that so they never had to pay Blizz a cent for using it
Negotiations didn't start until 2007 and blizzard was well aware of kespa before then since they were inviting their players to the blizzcon tournaments and stuff. Blizzard's own store page for broodwar brags about it becoming a national sport in korea so I don't think its fair to say blizzard wanted to get rid of kespa for 12 years thats just a big exaggeration.
Kespa actually said a lot of things during that time it is interesting to go back and read it. I feel like its only fair to post some of it even if it might not be true so that people see their side and can decide for themselves.
- Since Blizzard asked for negotiations in 2007, Blizzard has only conducted 3~4 basic meetings and was not very enthusiastic about the negotiations. On June 7th 2009, with Starcraft 2 coming out soon, Blizzard and KeSPA delved into negotiations fully. However, the release date was pushed back, and the negotiations quickly became very vague, and soon after on April of this year, Blizzard announced that they would no longer be negotiating with KeSPA. - Although Blizzard came and shook the eSports market by brandishing "intellectual property rights", we question if Blizzard even wanted to have sincere negotiations regarding these rights.
Q: Does KeSPA does not recognize Blizzard's IP rights at all? - Fundamentally Sports are not something to be tackled using Intellectual Property. Does Adidas, who makes Soccer balls, demand usage fees from the World Cup? Similarly, car companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests. - Without considering IP rights, Blizzard has been one of the greatest benefactors from growth of Korean eSports. Through Korean eSports, Starcraft 1 sales went up considerably and the product life cycle lengthened, and Blizzard gained many other many benefits. The game leagues operated by KeSPA uses official products. - Even with all this, KeSPA has announced from the early days of negotiations that we wish to recognize the rights of Blizzard due to Starcraft and has made it clear that they would pay a modest game usage fee to Blizzard.
Q: To KeSPA, where are the boundaries of IP rights? - IP rights are there as the basic rights of Game Creation companies. - But Blizzard demands that organizations get permission for contract time needed for a safe operation of eSports, Sponsor and Marketing plans, Broadcasting plans, and royalties from broadcasting and sponsorships which is beyond game usage fees, and sub license fees. - KeSPA believes that this is an unjust interference with operations, and also an unbeneficial negotiation setting as this goes beyond the scope of IP rights, and can see it as a poisonous article that shrinks the investment by corporations. - While the situation already seems like it's about IP rights, but rather than a problem with IP rights, Blizzard shows extreme greed that is beyond common sense and in order to accomplish this Blizzard is shaking the future of Korean eSports.
2) In 1998 when Starcraft was released, Hanbitsoft, the company that had the rights to publish the game in Korea, was the first chairman of KeSPA and registered and approvedStarcraft as an official game (T/N: Category for eSports). Even back then the concept of eSports was still very vague, and thus Hanbitsoft, who held publishing rights in Korea, recommending and approving of the game supports the case that KeSPA did not illegally use Starcraft 1. In addition, Blizzard was aware of that these contests were being held and even supported it, only to find themselves years later claiming that Korea has illegally used Starcraft 1 and that their intellectual property rights were being violated. We wonder if this violating of intellectual property rights have hurt Blizzard in sales, and we want to know why Blizzard did not mention Intellectual property rights up to 2006 even though they were aware of such events.
▶ KeSPA and the 10 Progame teams acknowledge Blizzard's IP Rights. KeSPA and the negotiation team have recognized Blizzard's intellectual property rights from the beginning of the negotiations as Blizzard is the original author. This agreement regarding recognizing Intellectual Property rights was something that was agreed upon even within the negotiations, and this was also the reason why negotiations were possible to the present, and KeSPA and the negotiation team had sincerely applied themselves to the negotiations. But because recognizing the IP rights shouldn't be a chain that constrains the organizations involved via license fees, demanding complete ownership rights to derivative works, and to even demanding auditing rights to KeSPA, KeSPA has repeatedly been in discussions to try and reach a common ground where both sides can agree with with regards to IP rights acknowledgement.
▶ The misunderstanding behind the "Communal Property" Comment.
The comment that caused many misunderstandings that implied that Starcraft and other games involved in eSports are communal property is a comment stemming from an misunderstanding within communication process. KeSPA had only meant that eSports is within the realm of sports where many people watch and enjoy, and Sports needs to guarantee Public viewing rights to the audience. KeSPa will now make it clear that the remark did not intend to imply that "eSports games are communal property".
▶ The extreme amount requested by Gretech will put the eSports market under trial. While Blizzard has mentioned that KeSPA had made 1.7 billion won in the three years KeSPA had run a licensing business, and that the amount Gretech requested is only 1/5th of the amount taken in by KeSPA, but in reality, the amount requested by the Gretech amounts to 700 million won a year minimum if you combine the Proleague and both Individual Leagues. This amounts to far more than 2 billion won even through a simple calculation. Furthermore, because Gretech continues to push for year long contracts, we don't know how much they will charge for extending the contract after the first year.
The current Korean Starcraft 1 eSports market still needs to grow before thinking about income structure, and requires a lot more investment.
While the proleague has accumulated a deficit of 670 million won over the 3 seasons, it is operated by broadcasting license fees and the organization fee. Furthermore, the broadcasting stations' individual leagues are continually operated despite that they are barely avoiding the deficit. Despite all of this, the negotiation team has announced that we are willing to pay an affordable amount of approval fee many times.
Blizzard did confirm the 700 million won thing kind of
- It is said Blizzard wants at least 700,000,000 won from the Korean market. Is that true? And why is this IP rights problem only in South Korea?
* The licensing fee is there to say that if they wish to use our content, they need to be capable of producing high quality content. When problems relating to intellectual rights is dealt with, the fee can be adjusted as needed. GomTV seems to have requested a fair amount as well. MBCGame and OGN are both ignoring our intellectual rights as well as not participating properly in the negotiations. Once the IP rights problem is dealt with, GomTV and Blizzard can adjust the licensing fee. This is not for the profits, but to protect our IP rights. To operate a business, it is important, as the holder of the IP, to get our IP rights protected.
All markets, including South Korea, request the rights to use our content. Of course, we cannot state exactly how much they needed to pay, but other markets do also pay as well. China and Taiwan came to us first, to get the license needed. We will finalize the licensing for broadcasting as well. It is not right to say that China has different situation than South Korea. This is same anywhere else including Europe.
To conclude I think Kespa is a jerk for boycotting GOM season 4, blizzard is jerk for asking so much and would have been far better off ignoring license fees and IP control and getting sc2 on TV instead so that the game could actually sell and get popular. Also GOM is a jerk if this is true.
Negotiations supposedly ended with "If we understand correctly, Gretech's demands are saying that, because the 7 year old Proleague does not benefit the company, thus, Gretech wants to get rid of it", with Gretech's side responding "That is correct" - KT's representative that partook in the negotiations: "We once again confirmed that Gretech does not have any desire to negotiate as they deny the existence of Progame teams and the Proleague"
The way that IP in fact matters to SC, SC:BW, and SC2 where they don't matter in other sports - The images, depictions, and physical structure of a soccer ball and soccer field, in addition to the rules and regulations of the game, are not themselves protected works. Certain rulesets, equipment models, and books about rules, describing the game, ARE copyrighted - but the game as a whole itself is not. It's a physical game, played in the real world, and it's very different from computer games. So a soccer ball is not a problem. But if you started creating hundreds of soccerballs with "Adidas" and "Puma" on them, in the same colors, it does become a problem.
Computer games are, from the basic code, the rules of the game, all artistic assets in the game, all sounds in the game, and every little pixel, copyrighted works (of art, to some; of commerce, to others) and all of them have been created since copyright laws have started to become strongly enforcable and extendable. Copyright periods have grown longer. And the entire manner of software sales has changed over time as well. I would have to go dig out the packaging for the original SC and SC:BW, so I am not sure to what specifics the EULA binds the user. (Or, in SC's case, if there was a EULA as we currently see them.) In short, whomever does the purchasing is not buying a copy of that game, but the legal rights to play that game - or at least this is how the software industry wants it to be. (The record industry is really trying hard to go that direction - they don't want you to own a CD copy, they want you to own an ephemeral license to listen to the music. Although that's always been a part of their marketing - records, CDs, even tapes which are marketed to DJs and for public performance are much higher priced because they include public performance rights - which your iTunes MP3 does not.)
Where KeSPA would go wrong, from an oversimplified legal point, is strongly depending on the actual licensing agreements (or lack thereof - as well as enforcability of any kind of "shrinkwrap" licenses) as well as the considered opinion of at least two judicial systems (SK and US). Even then, just broadcasting a game could be iffy, becuase (as previously mentioned) all the graphic assets and sound assets in the game are owned and copyrighted works. It's not legal in either country to broadcast works without proper permission - it'd be like running out to Wal-mart, buying a DVD of <insert movie here>, and then broadcasting it.
In any case, that'd be up to a lot of lawyers to untangle, but that's what I think the general gist of the entire IP issue.
To conclude I think Kespa is a jerk for boycotting GOM season 4, blizzard is jerk for asking so much and would have been far better off ignoring license fees and IP control and getting sc2 on TV instead so that the game could actually sell and get popular. Also GOM is a jerk if this is true.
Can't be done - the Blizzard part there. Intellectual Property must be fought for or you lose it - at the very least, the trademark "StarCraft" must be defended or the company claiming it loses the right to claim it. It's a US legal requirement. As for the rest of the IP involved, it's much the same - if you don't defend it, then it's not yours and if you ever have to defend it against a truly malicious or horrific use, you will have a lousy case and terrible day in court. Also, Blizzard (with regard to SC2) I think isn't doing too lousy with licensing - they pretty much will give a license to anyone that asks (although they may charge depending on how much the event is going to make, whether it's for profit or not, etc), and they aren't flexing their muscles on the hoards of streamers that probably don't have a license to broadcast their games.
Will the new e-Sports Federation be setting up its own website, domain, forums, etc.- give community a chance to interact with it and act as a central hub of sorts for not only team to team communication and planning, but also as a possible outlet for fans to learn more about the teams or engage the teams themselves? (Even if, maybe, there's only a brief bit of information and then a link out to the team's site.) Again, I'm thinking in terms of major sports organizations in the US - where, for example, if I don't happen to know the Bruins' website, I can always go to the NHL's website and find it from there.
(Yeah, yeah, TL is pretty much that for a lot of nerds - even if you aren't a fan of Team Liquid, you still come here. And TLPD seems to be used by EVERYONE.)
On March 31 2012 15:44 RIPJAWS wrote: Edit: i agree but i dont think blizzards goal is to get royalties there goal is to help esports grow which in the future will translate to more of there games being sold except kespa sees things differently to say the least so i guess the entire sc2 community can start sending hate mail to kespa because they are quite possibly the primary reason we dont have LAN FUCKIN KESPA LOL
Wow they got you hook line and sinker. Somebody in Blizzard's PR department is getting a bonus for this.
On March 31 2012 15:28 RIPJAWS wrote: everyone who is worried that kespa has any power at all doesn't really understand the law or patenting first of all just because kespa runs a few tounaments and things like that as soon as they get on blizzards nerves there will be a court case which blizzard would win for 2 reasons. 1. blizzard has so much money and power kespa if a fuckin fly to them that wont fuckin die. 2. this is intelectual property that belongs to blizzard as soon as blizzard says you cant use it they have to stop or risk being raped for every1 penny they ever owned.
they treid that with SC and failed miserably
the onyl way Blizz has control over KesPA is cause Kespa has to hold there tournaments on Bnet and blizz has it set up so anyone who wants to do taht has to ask permission
if SC2 had lan then KeSPA wouldnt do anything blizz siads
i was actually honestly not aware of that but dont u think the fact that its blizzards intelectual property and the fact that its copyrighted would mean that KESPA wont be able to use it unless blizz says so because in the end you are streaming content to a large amount of people significant enough that it would matter in a court and they are making money off of it so i think with those 2 things it might mean that they would lose the case if it ever happened
There are a few threads on the issue here is one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128517 basically it's like you say. Except from the Korean point of view and can be seen as foreign company trying to impose their laws on a Korean compagny. Search Blizzard Kespa for a few threads on the issue.
actually i was about to ask if there were a court case would it be in a korean court or american because maybe blizzard could fight for it be in an american court with it bieng there property and all.
Edit: i agree but i dont think blizzards goal is to get royalties there goal is to help esports grow which in the future will translate to more of there games being sold except kespa sees things differently to say the least so i guess the entire sc2 community can start sending hate mail to kespa because they are quite possibly the primary reason we dont have LAN FUCKIN KESPA LOL
So many deeply ill-educated and clueless posts in this thread about the whole crap. The way the whole thing went down, everyone came off badly. What you fail to realise is that Blizzard DID want to simply milk some royalties out of BroodWar. Actually, they wanted to kill it stone dead, but they settled for just sucking money out of it which, honestly, they really don't need.
Blizzard fanboy flag-wavers make me pretty frustrated because they're about five minutes old in the competitive gaming scene, and they come into all this rubbish Blizz propaganda about growing "esports" and lovey-dovey stuff about some fairytale industry springing up under their benign, attentive gaze. What do they really want to do? They want to take your money until your wallet is empty. Try reading up about Bobby Kotick, and see where that gets the holy image of the company when you see who's in charge. The nerve of Mike Morhaime showing up at a BW proleague match recently, on one of his trips to drag BW out of circulation and replace it with his own cash-cow took me aback too.
I'm under no illusions- Kespa have had their share of wrongdoings; but it swings both ways. I think "esports" is threatening to become a great grounds for pissing wars between big businesses who know that they can sell 14 year-old nerds anything, as long as it's endorsed by somebody who sits on the other side of the barrier at LANs. There's going to be a lot of vying for control coming up very soon, and this e-Sports Federation is a sign of that. And why? Because they're all competing for who loves "esports" most?? Ridiculous. It's for who can control this industry most.
On March 31 2012 20:20 ImbaTosS wrote: I'm under no illusions- Kespa have had their share of wrongdoings; but it swings both ways. I think "esports" is threatening to become a great grounds for pissing wars between big businesses who know that they can sell 14 year-old nerds anything, as long as it's endorsed by somebody who sits on the other side of the barrier at LANs. There's going to be a lot of vying for control coming up very soon, and this e-Sports Federation is a sign of that. And why? Because they're all competing for who loves "esports" most?? Ridiculous. It's for who can control this industry most.
Unfortunately, from the legal issues stemming around IP, eSports as an industry is pretty much at the mercy of whomever holds the IP that is the current game of choice. It's all about money - the only people in it for "eSports" as a passion are going to be the fans. The game companies, leagues, broadcasters, teams, and players, are all in it professionally for the money. Some may also have "lovey dovey" feelings about the community, but in the end it all has to be about the bottom line because economically, you have to make money. You can't create games for free, broadcast them for free, or play the game professionally for free. That's pretty much a given regardless of whether you're talking about eSports, sports, or just plain life. There must be support, financially, and that has to come from monetization of the underlying passion. Otherwise you wind up with hobbies, and even hobbies support themselves financially on some level.
Now now, calm down people. You guys are missing a crucial information here. After 2010-2011 pro league finals, which was an epic fail, most of former kespa members had since drastically restructured. So even though most of the stuff kespa has done until 2011 were anti-sc2, today's kespa I believe is more favorable to sc2 now.
On March 31 2012 22:26 mrlie3 wrote: Now now, calm down people. You guys are missing a crucial information here. After 2010-2011 pro league finals, which was an epic fail, most of former kespa members had since drastically restructured. So even though most of the stuff kespa has done until 2011 were anti-sc2, today's kespa I believe is more favorable to sc2 now.
i dont get how KesPA can try and compare SC2 to soccer, soccer doesnt require any special equpiment, you sick a net in the ground, draw a couple lines and put a ball down and you can play soccer
if there was some sort of special sport that required specialized equipment that was made by only one company who also invented all the rules for the sport then its pretty obvious taht that company will do everything it can to make sure noone can play or watch it without them getting a check
unfortunately this should probably have been done roughly a year ago, when current sc2 scene had all the leverage. Now that Kespa is in direct talks with Blizzard, the current scene freaks out and has to react. Too late, Kespa will once again gain dominance in Korea in my mind.
On April 01 2012 01:51 Poduh wrote: unfortunately this should probably have been done roughly a year ago, when current sc2 scene had all the leverage. Now that Kespa is in direct talks with Blizzard, the current scene freaks out and has to react. Too late, Kespa will once again gain dominance in Korea in my mind.
theres no point making it a year ago since there was no kspa in SC2 a year ago, its being made now because it would actually have a use now
also, i remind you of SC2con so technically it did exist a year ago
Honestly I think you could do a much better job communicating the point of this. It seems mostly defensive to me if anything, like you're worried about Kespa suddenly taking over the scene if you don't all band together to make something comparable.
If Kespa remains completely self contained then I really don't see them exerting that kind of influence over the scene, considering they're starting out with no established SC2 players. Hell, if they're self contained then people are going to care even less because it will be difficult to compare them to the current established players. Not that I'm suggesting they'll do poorly, just I'm not sure this sort of reaction is necessary.
On April 01 2012 02:05 Beakyboo wrote: Honestly I think you could do a much better job communicating the point of this. It seems mostly defensive to me if anything, like you're worried about Kespa suddenly taking over the scene if you don't all band together to make something comparable.
If Kespa remains completely self contained then I really don't see them exerting that kind of influence over the scene, considering they're starting out with no established SC2 players. Hell, if they're self contained then people are going to care even less because it will be difficult to compare them to the current established players. Not that I'm suggesting they'll do poorly, just I'm not sure this sort of reaction is necessary.
the point is though the current scene doesnt want them to be self contained, they want them to be a league just like any other with open qualifiers so anyone with the skill can join
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
FD and tester had a scandal with SC2con?
Yeah the one where both of them left TSL and a lot of stuff happened. Not sure if the ST coach was to blame
On March 31 2012 16:26 thepuppyassassin wrote: I don't understand this sentiment about foreigners getting "locked out" due to kespa's sudden rise to influence. I think this idea of gomtv championing the foreigner cause is one that is wrongly made. The only reason why gomtv bothers with the foreign scene at all is because that's where the money is at. Starcraft 2 is pretty dead in Korea and BW dying a slow death. Even if BW fans suddenly become assimilated into SC2 (and that's a BIG if) that doesn't change the fact that Korea will eventually never be able to support a large starcraft scene on its own, like it has in the past. In short, Kespa NEEDS foreigners to have starcraft be viable.
What many people don't realize is that the youth culture is vastly different in Korea than what it was over a decade ago. More so than ever before, you have a veritable army of pop icons dictating to kids how they should be living, and this new pop culture is one that frowns upon staying home and playing computer games. Seoul is a city that never sleeps and the night life in Korea has only gotten better, as well as becoming even more accessible to Korean youth. This is compounded by the fact that alcohol is dirt cheap (no $8 dollar 12oz beers there, try a 2$ bottle of soju instead). 18 is the legal age to drink and is very loosely enforced. I've drank on a couple of occasions with 15-16 year old kids masquerading as adults, not that they really needed do much masquerading to begin with. More people aren't playing Starcraft because there is simply other stuff for kids to do nowadays to spend their time. I think this is the reason why more casual social (rather than highly competitive) games are rising to prominence, Koreans are transforming into more social creatures...
this post times ten
I have many exchange student friends come to UCF hell I'm in the Korean club with them They all love western culture don't even mention starcraft they are embarrassed of it
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
FD and tester had a scandal with SC2con?
Yeah the one where both of them left TSL and a lot of stuff happened. Not sure if the ST coach was to blame
pretty sure that had nothing to do with SC2con it was mainly internal problems with TSL and accusations flying everywhere (the players say TSL refused to give them there last pay, TSL saids they couldnt pay, players angry they were stillusing there pic, TSL saying they couldnt do anything about that)
i think the only thing the ST coach did was try to explain the situation but turns out some of the things he said turned out not o be true
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
FD and tester had a scandal with SC2con?
Yeah the one where both of them left TSL and a lot of stuff happened. Not sure if the ST coach was to blame
I think the person to blame was FD and Tester, ST coach simply believed them although they were wrong all along.
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
FD and tester had a scandal with SC2con?
Yeah the one where both of them left TSL and a lot of stuff happened. Not sure if the ST coach was to blame
I think the person to blame was FD and Tester, ST coach simply believed them although they were wrong all along.
i think FD and Tester were technically right with there grievances but at the same time there wasnt anything TSL could really do about it
On March 31 2012 16:26 thepuppyassassin wrote: I don't understand this sentiment about foreigners getting "locked out" due to kespa's sudden rise to influence. I think this idea of gomtv championing the foreigner cause is one that is wrongly made. The only reason why gomtv bothers with the foreign scene at all is because that's where the money is at. Starcraft 2 is pretty dead in Korea and BW dying a slow death. Even if BW fans suddenly become assimilated into SC2 (and that's a BIG if) that doesn't change the fact that Korea will eventually never be able to support a large starcraft scene on its own, like it has in the past. In short, Kespa NEEDS foreigners to have starcraft be viable.
What many people don't realize is that the youth culture is vastly different in Korea than what it was over a decade ago. More so than ever before, you have a veritable army of pop icons dictating to kids how they should be living, and this new pop culture is one that frowns upon staying home and playing computer games. Seoul is a city that never sleeps and the night life in Korea has only gotten better, as well as becoming even more accessible to Korean youth. This is compounded by the fact that alcohol is dirt cheap (no $8 dollar 12oz beers there, try a 2$ bottle of soju instead). 18 is the legal age to drink and is very loosely enforced. I've drank on a couple of occasions with 15-16 year old kids masquerading as adults, not that they really needed do much masquerading to begin with. More people aren't playing Starcraft because there is simply other stuff for kids to do nowadays to spend their time. I think this is the reason why more casual social (rather than highly competitive) games are rising to prominence, Koreans are transforming into more social creatures...
this post times ten
I have many exchange student friends come to UCF hell I'm in the Korean club with them They all love western culture don't even mention starcraft they are embarrassed of it
On March 31 2012 16:26 thepuppyassassin wrote: I don't understand this sentiment about foreigners getting "locked out" due to kespa's sudden rise to influence. I think this idea of gomtv championing the foreigner cause is one that is wrongly made. The only reason why gomtv bothers with the foreign scene at all is because that's where the money is at. Starcraft 2 is pretty dead in Korea and BW dying a slow death. Even if BW fans suddenly become assimilated into SC2 (and that's a BIG if) that doesn't change the fact that Korea will eventually never be able to support a large starcraft scene on its own, like it has in the past. In short, Kespa NEEDS foreigners to have starcraft be viable.
What many people don't realize is that the youth culture is vastly different in Korea than what it was over a decade ago. More so than ever before, you have a veritable army of pop icons dictating to kids how they should be living, and this new pop culture is one that frowns upon staying home and playing computer games. Seoul is a city that never sleeps and the night life in Korea has only gotten better, as well as becoming even more accessible to Korean youth. This is compounded by the fact that alcohol is dirt cheap (no $8 dollar 12oz beers there, try a 2$ bottle of soju instead). 18 is the legal age to drink and is very loosely enforced. I've drank on a couple of occasions with 15-16 year old kids masquerading as adults, not that they really needed do much masquerading to begin with. More people aren't playing Starcraft because there is simply other stuff for kids to do nowadays to spend their time. I think this is the reason why more casual social (rather than highly competitive) games are rising to prominence, Koreans are transforming into more social creatures...
Going out and being a stupid youth that embraces alcohol and appreciating StarCraft aren't mutually exclusive. Look how many BarCrafts there are. I can't imagine that they're mutually exclusive in Korea either. We'll just have to see what happens, I'm fairly optimistic.
On March 31 2012 16:26 thepuppyassassin wrote: I don't understand this sentiment about foreigners getting "locked out" due to kespa's sudden rise to influence. I think this idea of gomtv championing the foreigner cause is one that is wrongly made. The only reason why gomtv bothers with the foreign scene at all is because that's where the money is at. Starcraft 2 is pretty dead in Korea and BW dying a slow death. Even if BW fans suddenly become assimilated into SC2 (and that's a BIG if) that doesn't change the fact that Korea will eventually never be able to support a large starcraft scene on its own, like it has in the past. In short, Kespa NEEDS foreigners to have starcraft be viable.
What many people don't realize is that the youth culture is vastly different in Korea than what it was over a decade ago. More so than ever before, you have a veritable army of pop icons dictating to kids how they should be living, and this new pop culture is one that frowns upon staying home and playing computer games. Seoul is a city that never sleeps and the night life in Korea has only gotten better, as well as becoming even more accessible to Korean youth. This is compounded by the fact that alcohol is dirt cheap (no $8 dollar 12oz beers there, try a 2$ bottle of soju instead). 18 is the legal age to drink and is very loosely enforced. I've drank on a couple of occasions with 15-16 year old kids masquerading as adults, not that they really needed do much masquerading to begin with. More people aren't playing Starcraft because there is simply other stuff for kids to do nowadays to spend their time. I think this is the reason why more casual social (rather than highly competitive) games are rising to prominence, Koreans are transforming into more social creatures...
this post times ten
I have many exchange student friends come to UCF hell I'm in the Korean club with them They all love western culture don't even mention starcraft they are embarrassed of it
So they are embarassed about their culture ??
1. niche market 2. that's only one experience
There are many other stories where they embrace it.
3. I'm assuming he's still at UCF. Anyway, it's a different generation as well.
I'm actually really glad to see this. With the Kespa talks coming up I've been worried about the future of SC2 in Korea and its relation to the gobal scene. We need to preserve this open and global community we've created around SC2
e-Sports Federation Fighting!
felisconcolori: "ANYWAYS.
Back on the actual topic.
Will the new e-Sports Federation be setting up its own website, domain, forums, etc.- give community a chance to interact with it and act as a central hub of sorts for not only team to team communication and planning, but also as a possible outlet for fans to learn more about the teams or engage the teams themselves? (Even if, maybe, there's only a brief bit of information and then a link out to the team's site.) Again, I'm thinking in terms of major sports organizations in the US - where, for example, if I don't happen to know the Bruins' website, I can always go to the NHL's website and find it from there.
(Yeah, yeah, TL is pretty much that for a lot of nerds - even if you aren't a fan of Team Liquid, you still come here. And TLPD seems to be used by EVERYONE.)"
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
FD and tester had a scandal with SC2con?
Yeah the one where both of them left TSL and a lot of stuff happened. Not sure if the ST coach was to blame
I think the person to blame was FD and Tester, ST coach simply believed them although they were wrong all along.
i think FD and Tester were technically right with there grievances but at the same time there wasnt anything TSL could really do about it
No... they later retracted what they said and apologized. This is pretty much what caused the ST manager to step down from his SC2Con leader role and the eventual disbanding of SC2Con. Kinda surprised that he became the head again for v2.
Horang2 of CJ Entus and Bogus of STX Soul confirmed practicing sc2.
People saying that there's nothing in it for the KeSPA teams to send their players abroad, have you already forgotten about the OGN/MLG deal that's been rumored? If OGN are going to broadcast MLG in Korea, then surely the KeSPA sponsors will want to send their teams to MLG.
And also, at least in LoL OGN are really trying hard to attract the foreign community as well. If this will be the case in sc2 also, then there's not doubt that foreign sponsors will be attracted to the KeSPA teams, which will eventually lead them to searching for more exposure besides this (e.g. various foreign events).
On April 02 2012 08:48 Eee wrote: Horang2 of CJ Entus and Bogus of STX Soul confirmed practicing sc2.
People saying that there's nothing in it for the KeSPA teams to send their players abroad, have you already forgotten about the OGN/MLG deal that's been rumored? If OGN are going to broadcast MLG in Korea, then surely the KeSPA sponsors will want to send their teams to MLG.
And also, at least in LoL OGN are really trying hard to attract the foreign community as well. If this will be the case in sc2 also, then there's not doubt that foreign sponsors will be attracted to the KeSPA teams, which will eventually lead them to searching for more exposure besides this (e.g. various foreign events).
On April 02 2012 08:48 Eee wrote: Horang2 of CJ Entus and Bogus of STX Soul confirmed practicing sc2.
People saying that there's nothing in it for the KeSPA teams to send their players abroad, have you already forgotten about the OGN/MLG deal that's been rumored? If OGN are going to broadcast MLG in Korea, then surely the KeSPA sponsors will want to send their teams to MLG.
And also, at least in LoL OGN are really trying hard to attract the foreign community as well. If this will be the case in sc2 also, then there's not doubt that foreign sponsors will be attracted to the KeSPA teams, which will eventually lead them to searching for more exposure besides this (e.g. various foreign events).
Horang and Bogus are practicing after winning group stages?
that's really weird
They said that they practiced recently before the group stages during their break/vacation, since their teams got knocked out of the playoffs so there wasn't any Proleague to practice for.
On April 02 2012 08:48 Eee wrote: Horang2 of CJ Entus and Bogus of STX Soul confirmed practicing sc2.
People saying that there's nothing in it for the KeSPA teams to send their players abroad, have you already forgotten about the OGN/MLG deal that's been rumored? If OGN are going to broadcast MLG in Korea, then surely the KeSPA sponsors will want to send their teams to MLG.
And also, at least in LoL OGN are really trying hard to attract the foreign community as well. If this will be the case in sc2 also, then there's not doubt that foreign sponsors will be attracted to the KeSPA teams, which will eventually lead them to searching for more exposure besides this (e.g. various foreign events).
Horang and Bogus are practicing after winning group stages?
that's really weird
They said that they practiced recently before the group stages during their break/vacation, since their teams got knocked out of the playoffs so there wasn't any Proleague to practice for.
Then, in the same way I practice angry birds inbetween lectures.
On April 01 2012 02:10 Wockets wrote: Gaah ST coach leading this one again? IIRC he was the one who caused the TSL FD and Tester scandal with SC2Con, I could be wrong though.
FD and tester had a scandal with SC2con?
Yeah the one where both of them left TSL and a lot of stuff happened. Not sure if the ST coach was to blame
I think the person to blame was FD and Tester, ST coach simply believed them although they were wrong all along.
i think FD and Tester were technically right with there grievances but at the same time there wasnt anything TSL could really do about it
No... they later retracted what they said and apologized. This is pretty much what caused the ST manager to step down from his SC2Con leader role and the eventual disbanding of SC2Con. Kinda surprised that he became the head again for v2.
Indeed. FD and Tester were basically caught lying as far as I know, and the ST coach who defended FD and Tester then felt like shit for defending a lie, and saying that Coach Lee was in the wrong, even though Coach Lee was in the right. After realizing that he was not suitable to make important decisions like that, and after making a terrible mistake, he stepped down, and then SC2Con would soon after. That's pretty much the jist of things. Honestly though, what surprised me most was that the ST coach kept FD and Tester on the team even though they were washed up, didn't practice often, and showed absolutely terrible results. Both in the bottom of Code B, losing the worst games imaginable, and neither showing dedication, he defended them and as punishment for himself wrongly defending them, he kept them on the team. (that's all my opinion of what happened, none of it is official or in any way fact. I just think that's what happened because I can't see any reason why he'd keep them on the team after knowing how much terrible baggage they carried. Also I can't remember if they were already bottom of Code B, or if they became bottom of Code B right after being recruited, but they sucked hugely already by that point)
Edit: But an organization like this is needed, and when the BW scene comes over to SC2, this organization needs to see to a smooth transition with no bias towards SC2 players, or towards BW players. SC2 players need to be protected, but not given unfair opportunities, and BW players need to be encouraged and treated properly. Although this is needed, it was brought up upon the wrong way, as it seems very defensive and weak. Sort of in a (oh crap, we need to hurry up and do this to stop the BW players from taking over OUR scene) kinda way, even though everyone knows that the BW scene is much more professional than the SC2 scene, in pretty much every way, and in that sense the BW scene would kinda have a right to brush aside what the SC2 scene has done thus far. Anyways, hope everything here succeeds in the right kind of way.
I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
On April 03 2012 01:17 Game wrote: I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
THIS LOL. Not to mention the fact that said BW players (as mentioned in the featured Elephant In the Room) article will completely destroy current players. Flash/Jaedong's mechanics are probably several magnitudes better than current players' in SC2, just in sheer APM power and macro/micro training.
I feel the whole point of this organization is to try and keep current teams from completely getting overrun by the influx of SC1 players. Kespa can easily destroy the current teams- who would watch MC when you can watch a guy with literally the opposite record in SC1? It wouldn't even be close.
On April 03 2012 01:17 Game wrote: I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
I'm kind of confused about the repercussions or advantages of this happening, but hope it turns out well for SC2. Korea, thanks for taking charge and I hope KeSPA plays nice.
On April 03 2012 01:17 Game wrote: I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
KeSPA also has Counter Strike, League of Legends, Warcraft 3, Special Forces, Kart Riders, and almost every other esport game in Korea.
On April 03 2012 01:17 Game wrote: I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
THIS LOL. Not to mention the fact that said BW players (as mentioned in the featured Elephant In the Room) article will completely destroy current players. Flash/Jaedong's mechanics are probably several magnitudes better than current players' in SC2, just in sheer APM power and macro/micro training.
I feel the whole point of this organization is to try and keep current teams from completely getting overrun by the influx of SC1 players. Kespa can easily destroy the current teams- who would watch MC when you can watch a guy with literally the opposite record in SC1? It wouldn't even be close.
Flash could dominate, yeah, but I dont think any other player could. Just look at what happened to ForGG.
On April 03 2012 01:17 Game wrote: I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
THIS LOL. Not to mention the fact that said BW players (as mentioned in the featured Elephant In the Room) article will completely destroy current players. Flash/Jaedong's mechanics are probably several magnitudes better than current players' in SC2, just in sheer APM power and macro/micro training.
I feel the whole point of this organization is to try and keep current teams from completely getting overrun by the influx of SC1 players. Kespa can easily destroy the current teams- who would watch MC when you can watch a guy with literally the opposite record in SC1? It wouldn't even be close.
Flash could dominate, yeah, but I dont think any other player could. Just look at what happened to ForGG.
And how good was fOrGG after he won the starleague? The guy was in a slump for about three years until he decided to retire. Besides, Jaedong kept on being consistent, whilst fOrGG did not.
On April 03 2012 01:17 Game wrote: I almost peed myself when I read "all Kespa has is BW players who don't know how to play sc2 properly at a high level." It must be rough ONLY having the game that invented e-Sports, in the country that did so, under the organization that solidified it.
THIS LOL. Not to mention the fact that said BW players (as mentioned in the featured Elephant In the Room) article will completely destroy current players. Flash/Jaedong's mechanics are probably several magnitudes better than current players' in SC2, just in sheer APM power and macro/micro training.
I feel the whole point of this organization is to try and keep current teams from completely getting overrun by the influx of SC1 players. Kespa can easily destroy the current teams- who would watch MC when you can watch a guy with literally the opposite record in SC1? It wouldn't even be close.
Flash could dominate, yeah, but I dont think any other player could. Just look at what happened to ForGG.
Let's try not to make this another BW vs Sc2 thread. ForGG is having far better results than tonnes of people who have played Sc2 since day 1, so let's try to avoid saying conclusive, divisive things without any grounding.
I don't understand the why people are concerned about the creation of this "federation". Comparisons to SC2Con are silly. SC2Con was in a terrible position because it was tasked to perform a function but given no clear outline or powers to do so.
This new group seems to simply be about leverage versus KeSPA (almost like a very loose union in a sense, without all the rules and regulations). Simply put, there's power in numbers. The teams that have built the current Korean SC2 scene want to protect what they have built and earned and have no chance of doing that as individuals.
honestly there is an oversight body needed, but not just in korea, there needs to be a global oversight commitee. if for no reason than to have a standardized way of addressing contract disputes, and other matters that would require legal action/arbitration/mediation.
I think the FXOBoss has a point about the Kespa being too insular. Whatever good deeds they might have done, being a sort of bureaucracy, players will have less freedom under their governance. More difficult for new comers to join, a small elite group of stars being overworked and overpaid (I know that sounds oxymoron but you get the point), etc.
Kespa requires "license" for both the teams and the players to join its leagues. Compare that to GSL, which anyone and everyone with skill can apply to and compete for. The downside is that everyone is kind of poor (except Slayers that has big seed money from big sponsers) because of limited number of leagues and there is only one winner like every other month. But still they enjoy freedom to participate in foreign tournaments and GOM seems committed to work with Blizzard to make SC2 more global, which can't be said of Kespa. (Will there even be an english broadcast, if Kespa's sponsors are not into the international market?)
On April 12 2012 10:36 usethis2 wrote: I think the FXOBoss has a point about the Kespa being too insular. Whatever good deeds they might have done, being a sort of bureaucracy, players will have less freedom under their governance. More difficult for new comers to join, a small elite group of stars being overworked and overpaid (I know that sounds oxymoron but you get the point), etc.
Kespa requires "license" for both the teams and the players to join its leagues. Compare that to GSL, which anyone and everyone with skill can apply to and compete for. The downside is that everyone is kind of poor (except Slayers that has big seed money from big sponsers) because of limited number of leagues and there is only one winner like every other month. But still they enjoy freedom to participate in foreign tournaments and GOM seems committed to work with Blizzard to make SC2 more global, which can't be said of Kespa. (Will there even be an english broadcast, if Kespa's sponsors are not into the international market?)
The "license" was simply winning a tournament (similar to Code B in GSL) or given by progaming teams themselves (which can be compared to seeds to Code A and Code S given by GSL except the teams themselves decide who to give it to).
Also, KeSPA does want to get into the global scene because that would mean more money. They already have an official channel here for foreigners (only thing they don't have atm is English casters but again, that's because the Brood War's foreign scene and spectators are too few to invest in).
The only reason KeSPA didn't try to expand internationally in BW was because the foreign scene was almost non existent (hence why focus on a nearly non-existent foreign scene when it can simply work to boost the Korean scene?) which is not the case this time with SC2.
Foreigners can participate in BW (Idra did for example) by attracting the attention of a team (with good results) or by winning the Courage tournament which grants them a progamer's license (basically "Code B" in the GSL except once you won it, you won't ever need to participate again).
KeSPA isn't without its faults but KeSPA never shunned any foreigners nor did KeSPA (purposely) try to keep things Korea only. Again, it's just at the time of BW, the there was almost no foreign scene at all, which means there was no benefit for them to expand. In SC2, there is a benefit to both expand and attract foreigners.