TLPD March winrates
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Telsh
United States148 Posts
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Arcanewinds
United Kingdom197 Posts
Edit: Though I'm sure I've seen them, I can't find :o. You could be the first afterall. | ||
Telsh
United States148 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:29 Arcanewinds wrote: They've already been posted dude Edit: Though I'm sure I've seen them, I can't find :o. You could be the first afterall. that's what i thought, i did a search and couldn't find anything so i posted | ||
Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
Anyway, then please include a link to the original high res images, you link to the scaled down ones. You can copy & paste this below (same thumbnails, but if you click them you get to the high res version): + Show Spoiler + | ||
skatbone
United States1005 Posts
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herbie
140 Posts
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
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Achaia
United States643 Posts
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LittleAtari
Jordan1090 Posts
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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TheRealNanMan
United States1471 Posts
It is interesting to see zerg having issues in Korea but rolling everywhere else | ||
Recoil
United States276 Posts
In TvP holy hell 60-40 in KR favoring T I AM HONESTLY SHOCKED. In ZvP why is it in the international scene Z is favored and the opposite is true in KR. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
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blinkingangels
105 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:39 k!llua wrote: wtf are koreans doing internationally in tvp o_O o_O They are winning early game. Its one reason I dislike TvP, because either terran wins early game with some cheesy pressure build, or they get smashed late game because toss is just better late game than terran. Right now I would bet a majority of those terran wins are under 20 minutes. Some new pressure builds probably came up, and the winrates will even out in a month or so once toss figures out how to deal with it. | ||
Raambo11
United States828 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:08 blinkingangels wrote: They are winning early game. Its one reason I dislike TvP, because either terran wins early game with some cheesy pressure build, or they get smashed late game because toss is just better late game than terran. Right now I would bet a majority of those terran wins are under 20 minutes. Some new pressure builds probably came up, and the winrates will even out in a month or so once toss figures out how to deal with it. They are doing a variety of crazy all ins IMO, I can't see any other way, the stats still boggle my mind | ||
darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
P>Z>T>P definitely not the metagame i expected to see. | ||
Chemist391
United States361 Posts
If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones. Or refer to representative GSL games, please. | ||
Chelch
United Kingdom159 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:20 Chemist391 wrote: What have the KR Ps been doing in PvZ? If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones. Or refer to representative GSL games, please. This | ||
theplagueman
United Kingdom32 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:20 Chemist391 wrote: What have the KR Ps been doing in PvZ? If 2 base all-ins, don't just say, "2 base all-ins." Tell me which ones. Or refer to representative GSL games, please. The Immortal sentry attack | ||
KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria852 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
It's nice to be back at the status quo. Game is well within the range of balanced, no more whining. more gg, more skill. | ||
GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
and second I didn't expect Zerg to be this strong :/ | ||
Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:08 blinkingangels wrote: They are winning early game. Its one reason I dislike TvP, because either terran wins early game with some cheesy pressure build, or they get smashed late game because toss is just better late game than terran. Right now I would bet a majority of those terran wins are under 20 minutes. Some new pressure builds probably came up, and the winrates will even out in a month or so once toss figures out how to deal with it. Your personal experience regarding late game TvP is just skewing your perspective. Also if you see, Toss has been on the losing end of TvP for all months except 3. Also, not all forms of early pressure are "cheese". Stop characterizing high level play styles based on your limited (and flawed) understanding of Starcraft. Most ladder players consider any attack before 10 minutes as "OMG CHEESE" or "OMG ALLIN". Don't be one of them. Thanks. | ||
Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:35 Achaia wrote: holy wow, this is the first time zerg has won more than terran in like a year??!?!?! nice! Pretty sure it's the first time ever since release that zerg have had a greater than 50% win rate over a single month. Edit: Over terran that is. | ||
canikizu
4860 Posts
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Poopi
France12466 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:28 KimJongChill wrote: Wow, TvZ in KR did a complete 180 O.o it has to do with the mappool. Maps such as Daybreak and Metalopolis TvZ were played defensive mode with ghost so now with the change they just lose on it TvZ. Plus July went bossmode, as went MKP ^^ | ||
blinkingangels
105 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:37 Piledriver wrote: Your personal experience regarding late game TvP is just skewing your perspective. Also if you see, Toss has been on the losing end of TvP for all months except 3. Also, not all forms of early pressure are "cheese". Stop characterizing high level play styles based on your limited (and flawed) understanding of Starcraft. Most ladder players consider any attack before 10 minutes as "OMG CHEESE" or "OMG ALLIN". Don't be one of them. Thanks. My personal experience? I'm not the only one who sees this problem. Even professionals see it too. Terran is too good early game, toss is too good late game. On March 22 2012 14:40 dignitas.merz wrote: I feel I should shed som light on at least my own opinion here. I do whine a lot recently, guilty as charged. I did not use to whine, for a very long time, I kept imbalance issues out of it for the most part. Why I'm whining at this day is because I look around and I see the only terrans being successful are koreans. I look at the koreans play and try to figure out why they still maintain such a high success with this race, and the conclusions I draw is that they're really just abusing the strong terran early game. I do very much so believe Protoss is stronger than Terran in the lategame, Zerg is too since the ghost nerf. However I'll be the first one to admit right here that the early game is imbalanced in favour of Terrans. Terran has a variety of 1 base openings that are sick strong, hard to identify, and all the units (hellions, marauders, marines) benefit a great deal from good control, which can make them ridiculously cost efficient. People will argue "Then just resort to using the strenghts of your race" or "If Terran is so strong early but weak late, why do you even play for the lategame?" It's simple. All races should be equally capable in each stage of the game, they should have racial strenghts and weaknesses of course, but having a race who CLEARLY excells in the early game and slowly crumbles in the lategame is problematic for many reasons. Terrans early game strenght comes much from our ability to wall off early, which denies the opponent important intel early on. It also comes from us having a ranged tier 1 unit (the marine) so denying scouting probes/drones are a lot easier compared to zealots or zerglings . It's also due to our racial mechanic which is the mule, basically giving us a sick income boost of minerals on which we can spend towards powerful units early game such as hellions or marines. It also allows us to incorporate workers into our all-ins because mules compensate for the mining time lost if we bring scvs. Now why this is problematic is because if one race clearly excells at the early game, the other races main objective will always be to just survive and take it til the lategame where they are stronger, while our objective is kill them as soon as possible. This basically results in P and Z tailoring their builds towards all-in play blindly, they even play overly safe sometimes (i.e. protoss going 3 gate before expand just because they scouted gas). This creates some really random scenarios at times which I don't think belongs in game where skill should excell above all else. Take TvP for example, lets break down 3 scenarios that are all very likely, we're going to assume P scouts gas here A) P scouts gas, knows theres a possibility of one base play such as 2 rax or the infamous 1/1/1. Plays REALLY safe because the protoss is expecting a one base B) P scouts gas, goes for the 1 gate nexus anyways and is determined to hold even if it is a 1/1/1 or 2 rax. C) P scouts gas and goes for a direct blind counter to specific BO, lets say phoenix play because they are expecting a banshee and then the 1/1/1 build as a follow up (which directly counters any 1/1/1 opening). Scenario A) P is playing safe, expecting a one base. Several things can happen here. Either Terran mindgames, pulls scvs off gas and goes for a 1 rax FE with reactor, as soon as the probe leaves or is dead. P is now automtically behind in economy because he played overly safe expecting a 1 base play. Terran can also decide to go for a 1 base play, Protoss holds, proceeds to win game. Here it's already quite random because P can't really know if its a fake or not. B) Again randomness, if The terran is faking 1 base aggression and actually went for 1 rax CC, the mindgame didn't really do anything and at best the Terran and Protoss is at equal grounds. This, being problematic seeing how Terran wants that early edge and to finish off protoss quick Or.. Terran went for 1 base play and just so happened to pick the right 1 base strategy to hard counter your 1 gate nexus, Protoss loses the game. C) Protoss goes for a blind counter, lets use phoenix opening as an example. If terran opens up banshee hes basically dead, if he opened up 2 rax, protoss is all of a sudden pretty dead. If Terran faked P out and went for a 1 rax FE, he's massively ahead in economy, because Phoenix openings aren't very good vs Bio FEs (lots of marines, early ebay etc). A + B + C and all the different scenarios = RANDOMNESS Now a Terran always playing it straight up, going for the macro game, is the only time P can ever know exactly what's going on. So here it's already like you're giving up some of your strenght. Worse is, once you reach the lategame where you both have 200/200 armies, Protoss reinforcement capabilites are so much better than Terrans (proxy pylons everywhere, can practically warp in 15-20 chargelots in the MIDDLE of a fight) while Terran can't macro and fight at the same time. Fighting in a 200/200 vs 200/200 in TvP requires 100% focus on the screen where the battle is happening which benefits a protoss with proxy pylons just behind his army. Terrans also has to utilize EMP, stim, kiting, and their vikings. All of these "lock up" important hotkeys during a fight which makes it extremely hard, if not close to impossible, to get a macro round in while you're actually fighting. I think a perfect example of this is IMMvp. IMMvp is known for his incredible straight up play. He cheeses from time to time, sure, but the majority of his games are straight up solid play. Yet, which one of MVPs matchups is his worst? TvP. Also, if you hadn't noticed by now, IMMvp is posting worse and worse results for every tournament. Which Terran actually excells in Korea right now? MarineKing. Now if you compare the two, MarineKing always has a new one base strategy to pull out of his sleeve, while IMMvp relies more on solid play. MKP does however lack in consistency which I believe is because he sometimes just botches games completlty due to "picking the wrong build". Whenever I felt playing for the lategame and playing the macrogame didn't work, I'd look at IMMvp and be convinced that it does work, but these past two or three months, I look at IMMvps games and im not convinced anymore. I feel it's a flaw in the design because each race should have equal capabilites in the long game, but that's just not the case. Terran is too strong in the early game and rewards mindgames, using a different strategy each time, and cheap all-ins more than solid straight up play. Obviously each race should be of equal capability in the early game too. I could go on about this forever but I guess that's it for now. Also to be honest, you look at how Blizzard patch this game and you realize if people cry hard enough about something, it's eventually getting patched. I figured I'd give it a try too. As a matter of fact, many terrans in this thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319705), both playing in lower levels and professionally addressed this problem with TvP. Why do you think Koreans are doing heavy pressure builds early game? It's because Protoss is extremely difficult to deal with late game. Maybe its your inexperience and flawed perception of the game that doesn't let you see that, because everywhere I look (not just my own perception) shows that other players see the same thing. Also, cheesy doesn't equal all in. Don't throw a fit over a single word. Many builds that terrans do to get a mid game advantage are very coin flippy, hence why I called them cheesy. They are definitely not standard. | ||
RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
A bit spoiled there aren't we? | ||
oxxo
988 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:00 RavenLoud wrote: Funny how all the recent terrans whined against toss lately when at its best PvT never surpassed 55%, before plunging right back into 30%s just like the 1-1-1 era last year. A bit spoiled there aren't we? Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. | ||
ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
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Domus
510 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:54 canikizu wrote: I blame MKP, in 2 tournaments he alone contributed maybe 10% 15% of Terrna's winrate. The dude rolled like 30-5 or something. You do know the stats are based on almost 30.000 games right...right? | ||
RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote: Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. Nothing really changed then, ever since the game's released terrans always complained about other races' lategame while they continue to mass marines while floating 2k gas past the 20 minute mark. Guess we gotta wait for HotS or finally a raven buff. For the mean time I don't think you have any other choice than to endure this blasphemously difficult match up that still gives 60% winrate despite all the nerfs. | ||
TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:44 Recoil wrote:In ZvP why is it in the international scene Z is favored and the opposite is true in KR. Korean protoss actually understand that the 3 hatch into roach thing isnt all that great, and its pretty blatantly obvious 5 minutes into the game. Koreans are great with timings and micro, foreigners seem to be less impressive with them. | ||
ragnorr
Denmark6097 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:33 Drowsy wrote: looooool. Protoss was ahead by a few % points and master's terrans decided to boycott ladder en masse while everyone on tl.net claimed protoss was by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and badly needed a nerf. It's nice to be back at the status quo. Game is well within the range of balanced, no more whining. more gg, more skill. 95 games have been played in march korean pvt in that graph, its a very little sample when 1 game will swing 2% dependant on outcome | ||
CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
Generally it is interesting how these statistics changed about the course of the last year and now it looks in Korea pretty much like rock, paper scissors. And that terran appears to be favored in Korea is very surprising given how much complaints there are about Protoss. But I guess you cannot judge based only on a single statistic. If pro-players feel Protoss is strong in the lategame I tend to believe them but that is onyl fair given how often we see a Terran crushing a Protoss before the game even truly starts for the viewer. | ||
Eliwood5837
245 Posts
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Rombur
Belgium107 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:04 Domus wrote: You do know the stats are based on almost 30.000 games right...right? No the number of games is misleading, it is 30.000 games over one year. | ||
RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:02 oxxo wrote: Read the post above yours. Most people aren't complaining about overall win %. It's the early game or die facet of the TvP/Z game. No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. | ||
HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
To me, it just seems like top-level Terrans get too comfortable with winning, then when the playing field is evened, suddenly they think Terran is weak because they're so used to winning -_- | ||
chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:17 Rombur wrote: No the number of games is misleading, it is 30.000 games over one year. Doesn't really matter, even if the sample size is only a few hundred over the course of the month the stats are going to be reliable. | ||
hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
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BoB_KiLLeR
Spain620 Posts
I see what Stephano and MKP did there. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13372 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:40 BoB_KiLLeR wrote: Ah... I see what Stephano and MKP did there. lol well done with this post. It would be interesting to see how many of the games are from each race's respective top players. If 25% of the T replays from KR are MKP and Maru winning then it kinda throws the stats out of whack doesnt it | ||
Meerel
Germany713 Posts
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blinkingangels
105 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote: No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15717 Posts
Those Korean Graphs are actually hilarious to look at. Just the amount of variation between each month is ridiculous. There's no wonder the foreign graph looks the way it does. Foreign Zergs have been performing much better than foreign Terrans or Protoss over the last month. | ||
Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:38 hzflank wrote: I think people need to start ignoring the korean graph. I have seen many times people have said (in previous threads) that only the korean data matters. However, the sample size of the korean data has always been too small, which is why the korean graph changes so extremely. I have not studied statistics, but it seems obvious to me that we would be better off analysing only the international data. No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics. A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough. | ||
Ventor
United States336 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:44 Recoil wrote: Look at the huge change in TvZ. I don't think its all ghost nerf, I think a big part is the new mass ling w/ ugrades into infestor into hive tech strategy. I think TvZ will balance out next month. In TvP holy hell 60-40 in KR favoring T I AM HONESTLY SHOCKED. In ZvP why is it in the international scene Z is favored and the opposite is true in KR. Because korean protosses knows how to play protoss. Thought out build orders, great timings, abusing stuff such as BL immobility, good scouting (which many tosses lack) and consisency things such as forcefields which many foreigners seem to fail with placing well. | ||
Orracle
United States314 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:12 CrazyBirdman wrote: To whoever put these together, tahnks for providing a colorblind version. Generally it is interesting how these statistics changed about the course of the last year and now it looks in Korea pretty much like rock, paper scissors. And that terran appears to be favored in Korea is very surprising given how much complaints there are about Protoss. But I guess you cannot judge based only on a single statistic. If pro-players feel Protoss is strong in the lategame I tend to believe them but that is onyl fair given how often we see a Terran crushing a Protoss before the game even truly starts for the viewer. You must take into account the crazy low sample size the KR graph holds this month. At 250 games, and no idea how many of games of each match up was played, these graphs can fluctuate greatly. On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote: No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics. A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough. I'm not sure how you can say a sample size of 30 is fine. Do me a favor and look at the international statistics. You see the low variance and the trend lines? That is from a relatively large sample size. Now look at the Korean graph. Still see the same trend? Absolutely not. It fluctuates greatly. | ||
bLah.
Croatia497 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote: No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics. A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough. We're not flipping a coing here dude so no, 30 is not good enough. Problem is that if you have tournaments, most of the games will be played by the guys who get into the finals. They will also have most games won, so if you have 1 guy who is just more skilled than the others, he can screw whole statistics up by just simply winning a tournament. Same thing applies in group stages etc. you can't take just couple of groups of GSL and says: hey, look at this statistics, because it's gonna be in favor of those favorites in those groups. I'd say 100+ is really minimum to say anything, even to determine current state and metagame. | ||
Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:13 Olsson wrote: Because korean protosses knows how to play protoss. Thought out build orders, great timings, abusing stuff such as BL immobility, good scouting (which many tosses lack) and consisency things such as forcefields which many foreigners seem to fail with placing well. The sample size in Korea is way too low to make any conclusions about anything. What, are the same Terrans who are massacring Protoss player somehow confounded by Zergs in Korea? Come on. International statistics are what matter, especially since they include the Korean tournaments. | ||
xrapture
United States1644 Posts
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huehuehuehue
Estonia455 Posts
@RemrafGrez NO, JUST NO. Mech/air just doesn't fucking work for a million reasons, it has been discussed so many times on TL. | ||
-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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InitialD
22 Posts
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:51 blinkingangels wrote: The winrates of the general community do not equal the winrates of top pros. You must be confused. The general community of terrans do not win the most. That doesn't even make sense to think that. That fact alone kind of throws everything you said there in the beginning out the window. Also I have to add, many terrans have attempted to figure out how to beat a maxed protoss, just as protoss have tried everything to figure out how to beat terran's all ins. Thinking they haven't is just stupid, sorry to say. Generally on both sides, it just comes down to having to completely outplay your opponent. ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin | ||
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:31 -TesteR- wrote: Protoss on losing ends of both match ups, as expected. Really? I see pvz 55% favoring toss. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote: ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin But nothing beats the The Game is Imbalanced for Me argument. Who cares what the win rates are in Korea, when I can't win? Right? Right? Guys?? | ||
blinkingangels
105 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:40 Bluerain wrote: ur right but the win rates of the community doesnt matter. the only way to balance for lower levels is to have only mirror matches. or better yet they can play rock paper scissors like choya in ladder. all the terrans complaining about having to outplay their opponents to win should switch to a more balanced/easier game such as flipping a coin Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree. And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so. | ||
chuky500
France473 Posts
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sperY
Serbia444 Posts
Its 55.7 and only in kor. Not that it matters. PvT is just... unexpected... | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:45 blinkingangels wrote: Lower level winrates matter somewhat in my opinion, but not as much as pro winrates, I agree. And terrans aren't the only ones complaining, protoss players have been complaining about 1 1 1 for ages as well. Does that mean we just tell them to get better and outplay their opponent or don't play? Personally, I don't think so. Man, wouldn't it be cool if someone did a version of the 1/1/1 that you could expand behind? Some players should work on that, I bet it would be really good against protoss. | ||
dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote: Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one. In Korea P > Z, International + Korea Z > P. | ||
Funguuuuu
United States198 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:46 Plansix wrote: Um..what chart are you looking at? The green bar is smaller than the red one. International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans. | ||
sperY
Serbia444 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:49 Funguuuuu wrote: International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans. Then we should only look at lets say top 30 koreans, as the players bellow are blatantly worse than the top 30 koreans? | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Ah I see it now. That is close to a big gap, but when you look at PvT, I am ok with it. | ||
Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:49 Funguuuuu wrote: International really shouldn't be taken into account, as the players there are just blatently worse then the Koreans. What? It is not like korean pros don't participate in foreign tournaments or foreign players participate in korean tournaments. If anything korean graph is pretty worthless compared to the international graph, especially with that big difference in sample size. | ||
blinkingangels
105 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:48 Plansix wrote: Man, wouldn't it be cool if someone did a version of the 1/1/1 that you could expand behind? Some players should work on that, I bet it would be really good against protoss. Explain how this has anything to do with what I said? | ||
SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
This partly explains why foreign Terrans don't do nearly so well as Korean Terrans vs foreign and Korean Protoss respectively: Protoss relies on Terran making a mistake somehow when trying to take a third base, as you have to hope they run into an easily forcefielded location or are too passive until splash is out - then, of course, the game becomes massively Protoss favoured. If Terran can play near-enough perfectly, it seems as though there is nothing Protoss can do. In this respect, it looks as though for a time, Terran has a higher skill cap than Protoss, if you will, as if both players play near perfectly then Terran will win. Of course, this only represents the current pattern of builds in use. If a Protoss build emerges that allows you to take a 3rd base without sacrificing safety or delaying tech by too much, then the winrate could shift back toward 50/50 again, or even further, given the apparent problems Terran has with lategame Protoss once mass splash is out. Edit: Oh yeah, this is all IMO. I'm not particularly high level, I have my own biases, I haven't watched every game out there etc etc. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:55 blinkingangels wrote: Explain how this has anything to do with what I said? That players should work on new builds and ways to play, rather then whining about how they cannot win because they are not as good as the pros. | ||
Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:12 darkscream wrote: The korean stats o_O P>Z>T>P definitely not the metagame i expected to see. Yeah, I thought it would be P>T>Z>P, but clearly Terrans figured out how to all-in and exploit timings, and Zergs figured out how to use Ultras, Broodlords, and Infestors properly since the Ghost nerf. | ||
Zazzles
Slovakia153 Posts
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On April 06 2012 08:02 Fencer710 wrote: Yeah, I thought it would be P>T>Z>P, but clearly Terrans figured out how to all-in and exploit timings, and Zergs figured out how to use Ultras, Broodlords, and Infestors properly since the Ghost nerf. all in and exploit timings? maybe they just learned how to play better | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2012 08:04 biology]major wrote: all in and exploit timings? maybe they just learned how to play better Exploiting timings is playing better. All ins are key as well. You have to have one or two in your pocket. | ||
SovietHammer
United States166 Posts
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Antimatterz
United States1010 Posts
Hell, it's about time! | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:22 Orracle wrote: You must take into account the crazy low sample size the KR graph holds this month. At 250 games, and no idea how many of games of each match up was played, these graphs can fluctuate greatly. I'm not sure how you can say a sample size of 30 is fine. Do me a favor and look at the international statistics. You see the low variance and the trend lines? That is from a relatively large sample size. Now look at the Korean graph. Still see the same trend? Absolutely not. It fluctuates greatly. Right, which is why you have to include the variance in your interpretation of the data. | ||
BoB_KiLLeR
Spain620 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:47 ZeromuS wrote: lol well done with this post. It would be interesting to see how many of the games are from each race's respective top players. If 25% of the T replays from KR are MKP and Maru winning then it kinda throws the stats out of whack doesnt it Actually I was reffering the metagame of ZvP and TvP | ||
hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote: No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics. A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough. Care to explain why? Would someone who knows this stuff off the top of their head mind telling me how many samples we expect to need to get a SD of less than 1%? | ||
sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
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Go1den
England116 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:58 Go1den wrote: Good to see Protoss still in last by a long shot. Warpgate un-nerf plz now that Zergs are unbreakable early game? really in last by a long shot? 55% win rate pvz doesn't seem last place | ||
Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:58 Go1den wrote: Good to see Protoss still in last by a long shot. Warpgate un-nerf plz now that Zergs are unbreakable early game? thats what protoss needs quicker warp gate | ||
Shiori
3815 Posts
1) Foreign players aren't so bad that balance doesn't affect their play. The foreign pros are still way better than anyone on ladder (with a couple of exceptions, obviously). If there's a trend of imbalance on the foreign scene, unless it's a serious metagame lag (unlikely given the integration of the scene and the amount of mixed tournaments) it's probably worth considering. 2) International winrates include Korean statistics, and there are plenty of Korean players at international tournaments. It's important to realize that Korean statistics only show Korean tournaments, not games that had a Korean participant. This means they don't include MKP winning MLG against DRG, for exampler. 3) The sample size is freaking tiny. Seriously, 245 games this month? Assuming perfect distribution that means 80 games per matchup. That means 42-38 is indicative of a 52.5% favouring for the first race. One player 2-0ing someone of a different race would be sufficient to fuck up the symmetry. Look at the foreign stats, not the Korean ones. The only conclusion we can draw from these stats is that Zerg is ahead in both PvZ and TvZ, which is more or less what everyone has been saying since the Ghost nerf and 3base Roach timings came to the fore. | ||
hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:59 blade55555 wrote: really in last by a long shot? 55% win rate pvz doesn't seem last place Having followed these threads for six months, people seem to think that anything outside of 52/48 makes the matchup imbalanced. Hence why I think we need bigger sample sizes, because with these samples it will often look 'imbalanced' and there will be a lot of monthly variance. | ||
Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:04 Shiori wrote: K. Stop talking about the Korean statistics. They don't matter nearly as much as the international ones. Why? Few reasons: 1) Foreign players aren't so bad that balance doesn't affect their play. The foreign pros are still way better than anyone on ladder (with a couple of exceptions, obviously). If there's a trend of imbalance on the foreign scene, unless it's a serious metagame lag (unlikely given the integration of the scene and the amount of mixed tournaments) it's probably worth considering. 2) International winrates include Korean statistics, and there are plenty of Korean players at international tournaments. It's important to realize that Korean statistics only show Korean tournaments, not games that had a Korean participant. This means they don't include MKP winning MLG against DRG, for exampler. 3) The sample size is freaking tiny. Seriously, 245 games this month? Assuming perfect distribution that means 80 games per matchup. That means 42-38 is indicative of a 52.5% favouring for the first race. One player 2-0ing someone of a different race would be sufficient to fuck up the symmetry. Look at the foreign stats, not the Korean ones. The only conclusion we can draw from these stats is that Zerg is ahead in both PvZ and TvZ, which is more or less what everyone has been saying since the Ghost nerf and 3base Roach timings came to the fore. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/games#tblt-2798-1-1-DESC look at the games making up the stats you think = balance (T)LamBorGhiNi vs (P)BloB in a bo3! thats 2 wins for terran in this months statistics, and 2 losses for protoss! then don't forget games that are pros vs joes or koreans vs foreigner pros aaah, the international stats. so useful! | ||
avilo
United States4100 Posts
Surprised about the TvP stats...although I'm also not surprised, because i'm fairly sure Terrans have started to do a lot more all-ins and timing attacks to attempt to take wins before the game hits lategame. Not that the stats actually comment on the metagame much, people shouldn't really point to the stats and say "omg i knew it was balanced/imba." The stats are just a very general idea, it has nothing to do with how the game is actually played in any specific sense at least. I'd say the things you can take from the TvP graphs are that it's the same ol' same ol' - if Terran can damage the protoss with their first drop timing, then they have a chance. If protoss defends that first timing into 3-base the game gets progressively harder for Terran, so the stats stay about even or flip with 5% diff or so. The drastic sudden change in the TvZ graph is most likely because of the ghost nerf. | ||
Necro)Phagist(
Canada6509 Posts
But in all seriousness these stats really shouldn't be used in arguments for real balance, between low monthly sample sizes and meta game shifts it's nearly impossible to use them to pinpoint imbalances. | ||
T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:45 chuky500 wrote: Protoss losing is clearly an effect of the phoenix range upgrade. Thank you, this honestly made my day go better Also guys, stop whining, even in BW certain races were stronger points of the game i.e. the rush to defilers in ZvT. Its just something you have to accept, terrans need to accept like toss do in PvZ that the strength of their army is its mobility and not its pure fighting prowess. Abusing mobility allows you not to win on the first or second battle but win in the subsequent ones. | ||
L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:22 T0fuuu wrote: Terrans are destroying protoss in tvp now? I think I will give it another month and see what happens to protoss in gsl. Last season was definately a good season for protoss and i was expecting more terrans to get knocked out of code s for this season. Terrans have always been destroying toss at high level. When everyone went through a OMG TOSS IMBA stage, the PvT winrate was 52%. now its 62% for terran, the MU obviously needs more work done on it | ||
Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On April 06 2012 11:15 L3g3nd_ wrote: Terrans have always been destroying toss at high level. When everyone went through a OMG TOSS IMBA stage, the PvT winrate was 52%. now its 62% for terran, the MU obviously needs more work done on it Yeah, that matchup is just bad, terrans are rolling protoss in the early and mid game and lategame they stand little chance unless already ahead from the midgame. Such a bad MU overall -_-. Not to mention every battle is always a landslide in one sides favour, not good watching. | ||
KING CHARLIE :D
United States447 Posts
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
I see pvz 46%... | ||
MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
What if... ...you're BOTH right | ||
SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
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ZeroTalent
United States297 Posts
I'll be curious to look at the playhem data once there are enough games post-Ghost nerf to get a sense for what happened in TvZ. WRT the whole "toss imba" thing even when Terran is ahead in both international and Korean win rates, I think part of what's going on is that players' perception is colored by the length of the game. If the terran wins two games in 12 minutes each off 2 bases, and the protoss wins one game at 24 minutes off four bases, you've spent 50% of your time watching each race win, but the Terran has a 67% win rate. What's more, people on TL think the only "real" way to play is a big long macro game, so the Terran wins don't count as "real" wins. I also think there's a way to win TvP in the late game as terran, but no one's thinking really hard about it. Everyone just adds on more barracks and tries to play the remax game with MMMVG, which requires you to trade at close to even cost/supply on every single battle even though warpins puts protoss ahead by one production cycle and Zealot/Archon is incredibly supply efficient in terms of both DPS and hit points. There's got to be some other way to play the matchup in the lategame. | ||
ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
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Catatonic
United States699 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:05 Whitewing wrote: No, you are incorrect, and you would know why if you studied statistics. A sample size of greater than 30 is probably good enough. Though a graph representing less of the population is more viable then one representing a greater portion of the population? I believe that to be a fallacy. | ||
Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:13 Olsson wrote: Because korean protosses knows how to play protoss. Thought out build orders, great timings, abusing stuff such as BL immobility, good scouting (which many tosses lack) and consisency things such as forcefields which many foreigners seem to fail with placing well. I said this in last month's thread, but korean protosses 2 base allin much more frequently than foreign ones. This pretty much explains the disparity. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 06 2012 12:34 Catatonic wrote: Though a graph representing less of the population is more viable then one representing a greater portion of the population? I believe that to be a fallacy. We're using different definitions of the word 'population'. A statistical population is not the same thing. Remember what it is we are measuring: balance at the professional level. The Korean graphs better represent that, because Koreans are superior players, others make more mistakes and have larger error rates in their performance, which leads to less accurate results. Thus, we should be looking at balance in the Korean population, rather than balance in the population of all SC2 pro-gamers. | ||
Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 06 2012 11:25 Hypemeup wrote: Not to mention every battle is always a landslide in one sides favour, not good watching. This bears repeating I think. Pvz and Tvz are totally different to play/watch in this sense; there's usually lots of frequent engagements and back and forth action. Pvt is usually 1 big battle where 1 side decisively wins and the game ends shortly afterword. Not great from a spectator point of view. I don't know how they could really fix this though so w/e. | ||
Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On April 06 2012 11:25 Hypemeup wrote: Yeah, that matchup is just bad, terrans are rolling protoss in the early and mid game and lategame they stand little chance unless already ahead from the midgame. Such a bad MU overall -_-. Not to mention every battle is always a landslide in one sides favour, not good watching. Yeah. I've found that I either win through positioning, upgrade advantages, and the correct T2 units to counter his T3 units and crush him, or I die due to lack of these three things. Carpet EMPs make things extremely one-sided as well. | ||
Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On April 06 2012 13:07 Drowsy wrote: You mean fix it without re-writing most of the Protoss race.This bears repeating I think. Pvz and Tvz are totally different to play/watch in this sense; there's usually lots of frequent engagements and back and forth action. Pvt is usually 1 big battle where 1 side decisively wins and the game ends shortly afterword. Not great from a spectator point of view. I don't know how they could really fix this though so w/e. Imo, they would need to buff Gateway units, nerf Colossus, add more dynamic abilites, remove the Sentry, remove Warpgate, and then go from there. It's the kind of thing that warrants a beta. | ||
GodZo
Italy224 Posts
I think the big difference from the past, is for the maps. In korea u should to analyze more months than one, at least 6 months. If you watch the GSL code S, at the highest levels, zerg have some difficultities, while toss are going better. Overall 12 months, T OP! We know this. | ||
KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
And yeah, I think we shouldn't look at the monthly trend, but rather look at the 3 month trends when we look at the graph. There's more games and also doesn't fluctuate when a GSL or MLG champ goes on a tear. | ||
GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 06 2012 13:23 red4ce wrote: Dem Korean terrans. Nerf after nerf after nerf and yet there they are back on top. Truly, their collective talent can only send your jaw dropping in amazement. Or the fact that Terran was absurdly overpowered and really needed those nerfs. For the record, I think the ghost nerf was overdoing it, qxc's solution was much better. | ||
L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On April 06 2012 13:36 Whitewing wrote: Or the fact that Terran was absurdly overpowered and really needed those nerfs. For the record, I think the ghost nerf was overdoing it, qxc's solution was much better. but its not like we have seen a huge wave of OMG I CANT BEAT TOSS STORM OP rages, terran is still DOMINATING the match up. Ghost is the only counter to HT, and it still does its job fine. | ||
Azzur
Australia6202 Posts
The win rates for Feb and Mar shows that momentum and form is more important than "balance". | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On April 06 2012 04:43 TheRealNanMan wrote: Awesome! I've been waiting to see these statistics! It is interesting to see zerg having issues in Korea but rolling everywhere else Zerg has always been the noob friendliest race. | ||
DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On April 06 2012 14:04 Azzur wrote: Wow, the korean chart looks crazy - a matchup favouring one side suddenly shifts the next month. The win rates for Feb and Mar shows that momentum and form is more important than "balance". Yeah seeing statistics like this just makes me think how stupid it would be if Blizzard released a patch when things have not even balanced out yet. | ||
Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
On April 06 2012 14:27 thezanursic wrote: Zerg has always been the noob friendliest race. somehow i think you believe that | ||
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 06 2012 14:27 thezanursic wrote: Zerg has always been the noob friendliest race. Someone's been getting rolled by zerg too much | ||
Highways
Australia6098 Posts
Zerg wins pretty much everything in the foreign scene, while struggling a little in Korea. | ||
phodacbiet
United States1734 Posts
On April 06 2012 15:10 Highways wrote: Makes sense to me. Zerg wins pretty much everything in the foreign scene, while struggling a little in Korea. You mean foreign scene where code s players dominate foreigners? | ||
cozzE
Australia357 Posts
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Noocta
France12574 Posts
But for random bo1 on ladder, it's a lot harder to play with the opponent mind and get an advantage from that. That's usually what happen when I custom against a protoss friend of my level. I win way more games against him than against ladder opponent. | ||
Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
Is it along the lines of Korean equals GSL plus KSL weekly? Or is it a Korean player playing in the game? So if MKP wins vs DRG in the MLG final, is that Korean TvZ win? Or international TvZ win? It should be Korean in my opinion. Though if it's player bound and not determined by the venue, then what happens if Socke beats TheStC at MLG? I think that would be another interesting form of those statistics. If the Korean and the International win rates don't have to form 100% each, but as Koreans beat Foreigners, they leech wins so that e.g. TvZ+ZvT would be over 100%. This way we could really see how things are panning out. | ||
Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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esaul17
Canada547 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10149 Posts
KR even more extreme this time, holy shit lol! Look at that TvP ! And PvZ? only TvZ is similar global vs korea o.o wtf is this lol, PvT isn't in favor of P? There are still some pros who complain about TvP o.o | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 06 2012 16:35 Thrombozyt wrote: I'm wondering for a while now, how the Korean vs. International distinction is made. Is it along the lines of Korean equals GSL plus KSL weekly? Or is it a Korean player playing in the game? So if MKP wins vs DRG in the MLG final, is that Korean TvZ win? Or international TvZ win? It should be Korean in my opinion. Though if it's player bound and not determined by the venue, then what happens if Socke beats TheStC at MLG? I think that would be another interesting form of those statistics. If the Korean and the International win rates don't have to form 100% each, but as Koreans beat Foreigners, they leech wins so that e.g. TvZ+ZvT would be over 100%. This way we could really see how things are panning out. As far as I know, International and Korean mean their respective tournaments. So if a Korean wins a MLG match, it's international. If a foreigner wins a GSL match it's Korean. | ||
Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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Neelia
Germany599 Posts
On April 06 2012 12:25 SniXSniPe wrote: Just goes to show how random SC2 is starting to feel like once everyone hits that high skill cap. Nobody has hit the skill cap and probably nobody never will. | ||
Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On April 06 2012 16:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: LOL WTF KR even more extreme this time, holy shit lol! Look at that TvP ! And PvZ? only TvZ is similar global vs korea o.o wtf is this lol, PvT isn't in favor of P? There are still some pros who complain about TvP o.o Look at the number of games. The number of games for the Korean stats in March is half as high as the usual amount. Now split the 240 games (that may or may not include mirrors - any confimation on that?) three-ways and you get 80 games per matchup and HUGE statistical variations. It's already bad for the usualy 500 games per month in Korea in terms of statistical error, but this month is much much much worse. | ||
Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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VidyaYuropa
87 Posts
jokes aside, korean sample is really small, people should start realising this, as the smaller the sample size is the more extreme the outcome will be. We should expect a Protoss Buff if Protoss keeps losing more, which would be understandable, looking at the international winrates. Maybe once no Terran in patchnotes lol | ||
zimms
Austria561 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10149 Posts
On April 06 2012 17:26 Thrombozyt wrote: Look at the number of games. The number of games for the Korean stats in March is half as high as the usual amount. Now split the 240 games (that may or may not include mirrors - any confimation on that?) three-ways and you get 80 games per matchup and HUGE statistical variations. It's already bad for the usualy 500 games per month in Korea in terms of statistical error, but this month is much much much worse. Ah I see, thanks for pointing that out! :D | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 06 2012 17:26 Thrombozyt wrote: Look at the number of games. The number of games for the Korean stats in March is half as high as the usual amount. Now split the 240 games (that may or may not include mirrors - any confimation on that?) three-ways and you get 80 games per matchup and HUGE statistical variations. It's already bad for the usualy 500 games per month in Korea in terms of statistical error, but this month is much much much worse. They will still get updated, won't they? I think January (?) was a big uproar because Protoss beat Terran by a lot at first but then it balanced out. But yeah, shows how volatile those "low amount" of games statistics are. | ||
Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On April 06 2012 08:31 Antimatterz wrote: HOLY SMOKES ZERGS ARE OVER 50% AGAINST TERRAN INTERNATIONALLY!!!! Hell, it's about time! You deserved it Rather interesting stats - time for another T nerf? I just hope the complete and utter out of proportion T QQ will stop. But then again - if it gets worse I am fine with it as well, since it´s funny as hell :D | ||
Amui
Canada10558 Posts
On April 06 2012 17:42 WizardofGGG wrote: oh the sweet rage and hate against terran, im seriously starting to enjoy this. jokes aside, korean sample is really small, people should start realising this, as the smaller the sample size is the more extreme the outcome will be. We should expect a Protoss Buff if Protoss keeps losing more, which would be understandable, looking at the international winrates. Maybe once no Terran in patchnotes lol We should expect a slight early game buff to protoss, and potentially a slight lategame nerf(related to colossus most likely in the form of nerfing upgrade effectiveness somehow, base damage on colossus is fine). From what I've seen of both PvZ and PvT though it'd be really hard to buff PvT early game without breaking 2base allins vs zerg unless it's something really, really subtle. What I mean by subtle is like a 5% decrease on stalker fire animation time(note this is not a dps increase except in exceedingly rare cases) to slightly increase margin for error when kiting marines for example. Very minor things that nudge the balance one way or another in early game without affecting lategame | ||
GiftPflanZe
Germany623 Posts
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:24 Shiori wrote: The sample size in Korea is way too low to make any conclusions about anything. What, are the same Terrans who are massacring Protoss player somehow confounded by Zergs in Korea? Come on. International statistics are what matter, especially since they include the Korean tournaments. Statistics at all do not matter for shit. How can games that might have players in their slumps or doing shitty tactics or just failing with simple stuff really be a good ground for balance arguing? Stop going after statistics and use it as a foundation for balance. | ||
zimms
Austria561 Posts
On April 06 2012 18:08 Olsson wrote: Statistics at all do not matter for shit. How can games that might have players in their slumps or doing shitty tactics or just failing with simple stuff really be a good ground for balance arguing? Stop going after statistics and use it as a foundation for balance. So you would be OK with it, if we only used one game per match up to determine balance? | ||
Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On April 06 2012 18:08 Olsson wrote: Statistics at all do not matter for shit. How can games that might have players in their slumps or doing shitty tactics or just failing with simple stuff really be a good ground for balance arguing? Stop going after statistics and use it as a foundation for balance. Then you shall be our leader that gets us out of the valley of darkness, and shows us the true way of how to get a sense of when the game is "ok" and when it´s not. So Boss - where do we go from here, I am for gut feeling myself but cruel people on the interwebz don´t agree with my gut feeling since they got their own gut, feelings included. //sarcasm It´s not perfect, but due to the lack of other sophisticaded measurements that include ridiculously many factors(a player slumping included - LOL) - I guess it will do regardless. | ||
TuElite
Canada2123 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6328 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:33 Drowsy wrote: looooool. Protoss was ahead by a few % points and master's terrans decided to boycott ladder en masse while everyone on tl.net claimed protoss was by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and badly needed a nerf. It's nice to be back at the status quo. Game is well within the range of balanced, no more whining. more gg, more skill. No one was saying the game is imbalanced at the pro level (Korean pro level), we all knew Korean Terrans are capable of beating protosses. I still believe at Masters level, protoss have an easier time against terran, especially once it reaches late game if the terran isn't considerably ahead. Recently I have been starting to win more TvP, even in late game, but I have to play like a fucking beast.. haha. | ||
robih
Austria1084 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On April 06 2012 18:46 zimms wrote: So you would be OK with it, if we only used one game per match up to determine balance? Yes. If both players played it out perfectly, reacting and playing to the races highest capability on an even map then I would be fine with it. Problem with statistics is that this isnt the case. Instead within the statistics there are games of bad maps, 6pools, cannon rushes, critical supply blocks, lack of scouting, etc I can go on... | ||
onPHYRE
Bulgaria852 Posts
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria852 Posts
On April 07 2012 00:03 Olsson wrote: Yes. If both players played it out perfectly, reacting and playing to the races highest capability on an even map then I would be fine with it. Problem with statistics is that this isnt the case. Instead within the statistics there are games of bad maps, 6pools, cannon rushes, critical supply blocks, lack of scouting, etc I can go on... Are those things not part of the games balance? Yea it's important to analyze even macro games, but if for example a 6 pool is imbalanced, how is that ok? If something is part of the meta game then it must be factored in.. | ||
Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 06 2012 18:03 Amui wrote: We should expect a slight early game buff to protoss, and potentially a slight lategame nerf(related to colossus most likely in the form of nerfing upgrade effectiveness somehow, base damage on colossus is fine). From what I've seen of both PvZ and PvT though it'd be really hard to buff PvT early game without breaking 2base allins vs zerg unless it's something really, really subtle. What I mean by subtle is like a 5% decrease on stalker fire animation time(note this is not a dps increase except in exceedingly rare cases) to slightly increase margin for error when kiting marines for example. Very minor things that nudge the balance one way or another in early game without affecting lategame They should just give us our old warp gate research time. It was nerfed specifically for PvP, so that players could do something other than 4 gate. That didn't work, so they came up with the ramp vision fix, which actually did fix PvP. Reverting the warp gate change wouldn't hurt PvP because of how sentries work now in that matchup, but it would drastically improve our early game PvT and PvZ by allowing us to threaten more. One of the biggest issues with PvZ right now, for example, is that you simply can't really threaten zerg much with a one base play. He simply goes up one base over toss, drones up a bunch, and hits his timing right to defend and *Bam* toss loses. Earlier warp gate would make 3 gate sentry expand more viable because the nexus would get down sooner and it would make zerg play a little safer. It'd also allow for early pressure off of FFE to be a little easier which would limit zerg's ability to drone to infinity and beyond. Earlier warp gate in PvT would make holding off really early aggression like 2 rax or early all-ins easier as well, without making Protoss any stronger in the mid game or the late game in that matchup. | ||
tenklavir
Slovakia116 Posts
On April 07 2012 00:03 Olsson wrote: Yes. If both players played it out perfectly, reacting and playing to the races highest capability on an even map then I would be fine with it. Problem with statistics is that this isnt the case. Instead within the statistics there are games of bad maps, 6pools, cannon rushes, critical supply blocks, lack of scouting, etc I can go on... Please show me this mythical game where both players play perfectly and make no mistakes on an even map. Oh...it doesn't exist? Damn...I guess using statistics is a good fallback plan in that case | ||
See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
EDIT: FUCK YES REAVER | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 07 2012 00:49 Whitewing wrote: They should just give us our old warp gate research time. It was nerfed specifically for PvP, so that players could do something other than 4 gate. That didn't work, so they came up with the ramp vision fix, which actually did fix PvP. Reverting the warp gate change wouldn't hurt PvP because of how sentries work now in that matchup, but it would drastically improve our early game PvT and PvZ by allowing us to threaten more. One of the biggest issues with PvZ right now, for example, is that you simply can't really threaten zerg much with a one base play. He simply goes up one base over toss, drones up a bunch, and hits his timing right to defend and *Bam* toss loses. Earlier warp gate would make 3 gate sentry expand more viable because the nexus would get down sooner and it would make zerg play a little safer. It'd also allow for early pressure off of FFE to be a little easier which would limit zerg's ability to drone to infinity and beyond. Earlier warp gate in PvT would make holding off really early aggression like 2 rax or early all-ins easier as well, without making Protoss any stronger in the mid game or the late game in that matchup. Na, plz don't make coinflip... sry warp gate expand viable again... The interaction between 3gate sentry and 2base roach/ling or greedy zerg is completly luckbased. | ||
mordk
Chile8385 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 07 2012 01:09 Big J wrote: Na, plz don't make coinflip... sry warp gate expand viable again... The interaction between 3gate sentry and 2base roach/ling or greedy zerg is completly luckbased. Agreed. FFE is totally fine and it way more stable than sentry expand ever was. It allows for more scouting, more information and fewer games that come down to if you happen to scout the roachs crossing the map. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 07 2012 01:22 Plansix wrote: Agreed. FFE is totally fine and it way more stable than sentry expand ever was. It allows for more scouting, more information and fewer games that come down to if you happen to scout the roachs crossing the map. I think the key for this MU is, whether or not they can fix roach/hydralisk; right now the intern balance of this composition is just off, meaning that roaches are too costefficient in the midgame, and hydralisks not robust enough for the lategame, which pretty much gives this techpath a weird "just spam roaches and either win or lose"-dynamic out of which you can't transtition, but you simply try to get rid of your range units in the latemidgame and get something completly different as your army backbone. (usually mutas or broodlords) It would be way cooler, if roaches were weaker on their own (at least offensively), but the more costly (more swarmy) roach/hydra or roach/hydra/infestor combos (+/- corruptor support if needed) were better in the latemid-lategame. It could create a nice dynamic in which Protoss can take a third easier and zerg does not just lose if he doesn't go air. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 07 2012 02:26 Big J wrote: I think the key for this MU is, whether or not they can fix roach/hydralisk; right now the intern balance of this composition is just off, meaning that roaches are too costefficient in the midgame, and hydralisks not robust enough for the lategame, which pretty much gives this techpath a weird "just spam roaches and either win or lose"-dynamic out of which you can't transtition, but you simply try to get rid of your range units in the latemidgame and get something completly different as your army backbone. (usually mutas or broodlords) It would be way cooler, if roaches were weaker on their own (at least offensively), but the more costly (more swarmy) roach/hydra or roach/hydra/infestor combos (+/- corruptor support if needed) were better in the latemid-lategame. It could create a nice dynamic in which Protoss can take a third easier and zerg does not just lose if he doesn't go air. What, knock roaches back down to 3 range rather than 4 but buff the hydralisk? | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 06 2012 06:18 RemrafGrez wrote: No, he is right. Terran is spoiled if you judge forum posts and community attitude. They win the most and whine that they want TvP mech to be viable, spitting in the face of Protoss everywhere who still lose to 1-1-1 and 1 base marine-tank builds half the time or more. They win the most because their early game is so powerful, no race can stand up to them without extremely perfect scouting and reaction if they decide to be aggressive. Terrans complain about late game Protoss being too hard, while they never try hard to find a way to be 200/200 mech/air which stomps any unit composition Protoss can dream up. Remember what Blizzard is putting in HotS due to player requests? Protoss just wants a fraction of a fighting chance. Terran just wants more ways to dominate despite having the best tools already. Spoiled. Terran winrates out of control at high levels, receive nerfs, still have high winrates. Terrans complain. Forum terrans start spouting crap about "terran is hard at low levels". I'm not buying it, sorry. Those players need to learn to be aggressive and transition out of it, instead of being a braindead aggression=all-in type attituder. They need to learn to play goddamnit. Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 07 2012 02:30 Whitewing wrote: What, knock roaches back down to 3 range rather than 4 but buff the hydralisk? Well, there are many ways to do so. Just 3range 2supply roaches suffer too much in the early game imo (hellions, stalkers, reapers, marauders, marines, canons outrange them too much then, to get enough use out of them). What I think would be a good way to go about it would be a costincrease to something like 100/25 and make them a bit better when burrow microed (faster animation, dodge attack, splash reduction when burrowed... something like that). Probably even nerf their attack from 8 to 7.5 or 7dps (for example slower attack) and give them even a little more health (the idea is that they tank damage for the hydras, not that they do most of it on their own). Hydras: probably also more expensive 125-150/50, but maybe let them go to 7range through the upgrade (and make it 200/200, probably hivetech) with a little more dps and health. (the idea is, that they stand further back and don't get torn apart by 9range storms/colossi in 1-2 volleys) By buffing their stats but also their costs, the composition becomes weaker early (less costefficient) but stronger late (more supplyefficient). Also I think the upgrades could/should be turned around: +2 for hydras, +1 for roaches. It doesn't make a lot of sense, that the "glass canon" does not profit from damage upgrades on even upgrades, but the "meat tank" gets better. Also +8,3% per upgrade with a +1 advantage for hydralisks is simply put not much for this kind of unit. It's just a random idea how the goal (roaches weaker in the midgame on their own, roach/hydra stronger in the high supply) might work out. (probably BLs would need a small nerf for this, to make the high supply army a little weaker) | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 07 2012 02:43 Superneenja wrote: Before I kept reading the post I had to comment on this dumbshit right here. You don't play Terran, nor are you a pro. I don't think most of us are whining because of winning or losing, its because each races objective is different.. its exactly as what Merz says. He has not been the only one to voice their opinion. Another thing we want is the same skill level for all races, because right now Terran has the highest skill ceiling = higher your skill better success with race, where as Z or P do not have this same requirement. No one likes to admit their race is easier to play, but I think its been established that T success scales with your ability to use them properly. I just see Z and P using Korean Win Rates and tournament results as an excuse to think they are on the same skill level as a Terran in their league. The truth is you dont have to be as good, and thats just a blizzard design thing. This TvP problem is mainly in lower league play because people try to play straight up, don't you love it when you get BM'd for using the only option you have against a certain race?...because by the logic on these forums 1 person always represents the view of the majority. Terran is just too limited against P especially, and that needs to change. You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. The same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. | ||
Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote: You are right, no one liked admitting that their race is easy to play. The same way no one likes admitting that they are not very good a specific match up. Both groups like to blame other things, like imbalance, difficultly, or fear of getting BM'd because they punished a greedy player. Except for the Pros, because they play to win. You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote: You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" It could be a large number of terrans, or a minority of vocal people on a few forums. There were a large number of protoss getting mauled by zergs a while a back, it happens in SC2. We have seen balance whining before, but never to the point where they called other people less skilled, saying they did not deserve to be in the league they are in or whining because they have to be aggressive. That is just entitlement. | ||
ppdealer
Canada161 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:25 Horseballs wrote: You have to admit it is quite curious then that it just so happens that for a very large percentage of terrans, TvP is the matchup they all are "not very good at" And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs. | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:32 Plansix wrote: It could be a large number of terrans, or a minority of vocal people on a few forums. There were a large number of protoss getting mauled by zergs a while a back, it happens in SC2. We have seen balance whining before, but never to the point where they called other people less skilled, saying they did not deserve to be in the league they are in or whining because they have to be aggressive. That is just entitlement. So is the terran skill ceiling higher or not? By reasoning if people have admitted Terrans have to do way more than Protoss in battles and that P some mechanics are more forgiving then the terran opponent has had to work harder to get where they are at. Thats how I define it atleast. And Pro players do want to win, so what you are saying is that they should switch to terran?..Why don't we see this all the time then? If we are in the same league, and you are Protoss, Ive worked harder to get where I'm at, and I'll always believe that I have more skill..thats just how I look at it sorry. | ||
Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:32 ppdealer wrote: And a very large percentage of those terrans who complain aren't good enough to get their games represented in these graphs. Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:43 Superneenja wrote: So is the terran skill ceiling higher or not? By reasoning if people have admitted Terrans have to do way more than Protoss in battles and that P some mechanics are more forgiving then the terran opponent has had to work harder to get where they are at. Thats how I define it atleast. And Pro players do want to win, so what you are saying is that they should switch to terran?..Why don't we see this all the time then? If we are in the same league, and you are Protoss, Ive worked harder to get where I'm at, and I'll always believe that I have more skill..thats just how I look at it sorry. The terran skill ceiling is not higher and never has been. I don't believe that terran is harder than any other race and I think it is shows a poor competitive attitude, which many be the main problem that a lot of players have. They don't look internally and ask what they could have done to win, they look to the game and say "this is why I lost". | ||
ppdealer
Canada161 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:48 Horseballs wrote: Contrary to popular opinion, tip top level balance isn't the only thing important to the continued health of the game. A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised. | ||
Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:58 ppdealer wrote: A healthy competitive scene depends heavily on balance at the top. It'd be difficult for SC2 to continue being a successful spectator sport if that is ever compromised. Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene. | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 07 2012 03:50 Plansix wrote: The terran skill ceiling is not higher and never has been. I don't believe that terran is harder than any other race and I think it is shows a poor competitive attitude, which many be the main problem that a lot of players have. They don't look internally and ask what they could have done to win, they look to the game and say "this is why I lost". So by your definition if one race requires you to do substantially more than your opponents race to be on even footing, its not the games fault, just play better? I had this notion that if you are playing someone on ladder they are around the same skill level as you....here's what it sound like to me Protoss Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings" Terran Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings and learn how to get 300apm to execute it" "But Terran whiner, why don't you just go sky/mech? It takes less apm and destroys Protoss" < - uhh no it doesn't I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono. | ||
meadbert
United States681 Posts
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Eiaco
170 Posts
Protoss on the other hand have obviously been underpowered for well over a year now (as shown by this chart) and if it was not for cheesy 2 base all ins, I bet that Protoss would have a >20% w/l in PvZ. PvT is obviously favoured towards T (as shown by this chart) as their early game is way too strong. | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:21 meadbert wrote: So to prove that PvT is imbalanced in favor of P you played 2 PvPs and a PvZ in platinum? No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw! | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:27 Eiaco wrote: All Terran players remind me of Veruca Salt. They think that they have a right to have an OP race as they have been spoilt since release. Can't wait until Terran has an even win rate so I can see some tears. Protoss on the other hand have obviously been underpowered for well over a year now (as shown by this chart) and if it was not for cheesy 2 base all ins, I bet that Protoss would have a >20% w/l in PvZ. PvT is obviously favoured towards T (as shown by this chart) as their early game is way too strong. I like how every protoss player bases their whole argument on the korean graph lol. By this reasoning if you are winning as protoss in lower leagues over and over, Toss still UP right? "Man I win in diamond and plat all day, but IF i played in GM in korea i would lose Terran OP" We already know why Terrans in korea have success, because they are doing the only thing they can do to win. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:28 Superneenja wrote: No I said I started playing P and so far I have played 3 games...2 PvPs and a PvZ. Reading comprehension ftw! And then you proceed to: On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote: I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono. "invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level. | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:34 Plansix wrote: And then you proceed to: "invite" that protoss players terran so they can see how much more difficult terran is. My reading comprehension is pretty good and this sound like you believe is to powerful from your three games playing at platinum level. I'm still trying to make sense of your first sentence. Are you saying that terran is more difficult? All I meant was hey instead of making general statements looking outside in why not try it out and see the korean graph doesn't always answer everything. Thats exactly what I'm doing. I never said they were powerful, but I do find it interesting that I threw myself into my plat acct with very limited info on how to play toss and still was able to win all my games so far. Maybe it was luck, maybe they were bad who knows... just stating my experience so far. I truly believe if you play terran, you gain all the skills that you would need to be successful with all other races. And thats just my opinion, and we have seen players go from T to X but never the other way around..and if T is OP I'm sure these people would make more money winning tournaments as T right? | ||
ppdealer
Canada161 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:06 Horseballs wrote: Starcraft II's success isn't only as a "spectator sport." It is very important for it to be successful as a game and to have players playing, especially to support that competitive scene. The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies. Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing. | ||
Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On April 07 2012 05:14 ppdealer wrote: The success of SC2 is due entirely to it's competitive scene. No one would take the game seriously if Blizzard knowingly eshew top balance in favor of casual Terran players in lower league continuesly whining about how it's unfair for them to play a harder race. There would be no GSL, no MLG, no IPL, nor any kind of prized tournament at all because no one would pay money, travels across the continent just to watch game designed for pussies. Here's the thing: you don't lose anything when you lose a game in the lower league. Same cannot be said for the pro players who basically live for prize money, prestige, and fame. While I'm not saying that casual players can't complain, it's absurd to give them as much weight as what progamers are facing. I'm not asking for the game to be easier, I just want it to require more mechanical effort to control that protoss blob of colossus,archons, zealots and templar than it currently does. The pros wont be affected because they have the capability to do it. Your average battlenet protoss will be on a more level playing field late game with terran. It is more than "losing something" when I play the game. I play to have fun, and as it currently stands I have absolutely no fun at all in 1 out of the 3 matchups, and the frequency of that matchup is so high that I may just quit the game. I don't give a damn about tournaments when I play, and I suspect I'm not the only one. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 07 2012 06:06 Horseballs wrote: I'm not asking for the game to be easier, I just want it to require more mechanical effort to control that protoss blob of colossus,archons, zealots and templar than it currently does. The pros wont be affected because they have the capability to do it. Your average battlenet protoss will be on a more level playing field late game with terran. It is more than "losing something" when I play the game. I play to have fun, and as it currently stands I have absolutely no fun at all in 1 out of the 3 matchups, and the frequency of that matchup is so high that I may just quit the game. I don't give a damn about tournaments when I play, and I suspect I'm not the only one. Sadly, you have come to the wrong community to express that opinion. TL is a site that focuses and reports on highlevel, professional play. I understand you are fustrated and there may be other people like you in every race at every skill level, but this is not where you want do express those complaints. Many of the people who come to this site want to see the highest level play possible and do not want the game changed to make it easier for any play level or race. They come here to watch and learn from the professionals and try to emulate their play to the best of their ability. Once again, you opinion is your own and there is nothing wrong with being fustrated, but I think you have pick the wrong audience to make your argument to. | ||
Horseballs
United States721 Posts
On April 07 2012 06:21 Plansix wrote: Sadly, you have come to the wrong community to express that opinion. TL is a site that focuses and reports on highlevel, professional play. I understand you are fustrated and there may be other people like you in every race at every skill level, but this is not where you want do express those complaints. Many of the people who come to this site want to see the highest level play possible and do not want the game changed to make it easier for any play level or race. They come here to watch and learn from the professionals and try to emulate their play to the best of their ability. Once again, you opinion is your own and there is nothing wrong with being fustrated, but I think you have pick the wrong audience to make your argument to. If you read more closely, I don't want to make the game easier. I want to make the game harder overall. No effect on the pro level, higher level of entry for the lower level. | ||
KaBaaM
Canada6 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:10 Superneenja wrote: So by your definition if one race requires you to do substantially more than your opponents race to be on even footing, its not the games fault, just play better? I had this notion that if you are playing someone on ladder they are around the same skill level as you....here's what it sound like to me Protoss Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings" Terran Player: "Aww man I lost that game, I have to learn a better build and perfect my timings and learn how to get 300apm to execute it" "But Terran whiner, why don't you just go sky/mech? It takes less apm and destroys Protoss" < - uhh no it doesn't I invite all protoss players in denial to go try terran as I have switched to Protoss to see how much success I have. i haven't played any SC2 since season 3/4 and so far I'm 3-0 games in plat. Just to make clear I have no idea of timings, but know some general builds for PvX matchups. 2 PvPs went 3 gate robo against stalker play, the PvZ was a little more challenging, especially when you don't know all the hotkeys...but eventually I got the deathball and won. I have to admit one of my main problems right now is getting supply blocked, but I found that I was able to catch up with chrono. Here's one point of view - I main Protoss in Masters. Last season, I switched to Terran and random. What league was I in with both? Masters. I dropped in points, certainly, but without having played Terran 1v1 I still easily managed to beat masters league players. My APM didn't go up (actually went down), and I wasn't using the race nearly as it was meant to be played - had no idea of timings, barely used ghosts vs P, etc. Terran is my hardest race, sure, but that's because I've played it the least - and even with that being so, there wasn't an absurd difference in ranking between that and my Protoss. | ||
ChaosTerran
Austria844 Posts
On April 07 2012 06:59 KaBaaM wrote: Here's one point of view - I main Protoss in Masters. Last season, I switched to Terran and random. What league was I in with both? Masters. I dropped in points, certainly, but without having played Terran 1v1 I still easily managed to beat masters league players. My APM didn't go up (actually went down), and I wasn't using the race nearly as it was meant to be played - had no idea of timings, barely used ghosts vs P, etc. Terran is my hardest race, sure, but that's because I've played it the least - and even with that being so, there wasn't an absurd difference in ranking between that and my Protoss. I'm a grandmaster protoss and I play zerg and terran at gold level. Oh, what's that? Anecdotal evidence? Not even evidence at all, because I didn't provide any links? Great deal. | ||
getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On April 07 2012 04:43 Superneenja wrote: I'm still trying to make sense of your first sentence. Are you saying that terran is more difficult? All I meant was hey instead of making general statements looking outside in why not try it out and see the korean graph doesn't always answer everything. Thats exactly what I'm doing. I never said they were powerful, but I do find it interesting that I threw myself into my plat acct with very limited info on how to play toss and still was able to win all my games so far. Maybe it was luck, maybe they were bad who knows... just stating my experience so far. I truly believe if you play terran, you gain all the skills that you would need to be successful with all other races. And thats just my opinion, and we have seen players go from T to X but never the other way around..and if T is OP I'm sure these people would make more money winning tournaments as T right? Congratulations on your three platinum wins. Clearly the ease with which you won these three games is representative of the fact that protoss is dramatically overpowered | ||
KaBaaM
Canada6 Posts
On April 07 2012 07:23 ChaosTerran wrote: I'm a grandmaster protoss and I play zerg and terran at gold level. Oh, what's that? Anecdotal evidence? Not even evidence at all, because I didn't provide any links? Great deal. Calm down there mate - I was just pointing at that I was a Protoss player who did play other races, as the person I replied to was requesting. Here's my rank (I'm the only Kabaam ...) http://sc2ranks.com/us/1540525/KaBaaM Kabaam.332 on BattleNet - my last season I ended up playing mostly Random, but I was playing Terran for a significant amount of that as well. | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 07 2012 07:29 getSome[703] wrote: Congratulations on your three platinum wins. Clearly the ease with which you won these three games is representative of the fact that protoss is dramatically overpowered Hey! Thanks man, appreciate the support. We are both on the same page now! | ||
Technoboyforce
United States31 Posts
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42211 Posts
Terran vs. Protoss = holy shit whaaaaat x.x Not again | ||
JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States42211 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:22 T0fuuu wrote: Terrans are destroying protoss in tvp now? I think I will give it another month and see what happens to protoss in gsl. Last season was definately a good season for protoss and i was expecting more terrans to get knocked out of code s for this season. Where have you been for... the entire history of SC2? o.O | ||
Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On April 07 2012 12:04 JiYan wrote: O_O protoss tears For me anyway, it's not so much "QQ my race is the worst", it's more just pointing out how ridiculous it was that terrans have been raging about how imbalanced pvt is for the past 2 months despite the fact that at the pro level it was a whopping 51% advantage for protoss. Then on top of this there's this ridiculous perception on tl.net that protoss is by far the easiest and strongest race in the game and involves nothing but building a deathball and a moving. Of course numerous people have pointed out the late game vs early game dichotomy that exists in tvp, yet everyone has brilliant ideas about how to fix protoss' advantage in the late game and are completely silent about the ridiculous and terrifying experience of pvt in the first 15 minute. In a game where the average pro level match length is like 13 minutes its kind of astonishing the way people talk about pvt. For what it's worth, I'm masters protoss and I personally don't think blizzard should make any more balance changes until HOTS. The game is in the realm of "balanced enough", and if metagame shifts don't knock it out of the loose equilibrium its currently in for several month periods, doing nothing is probably a good decision by blizz. Most of the balance problems that do exist (lategame vs early game pvt, mothership dice rolling vs infestor broodlord in pvz are more systematic and can't be fixed by adjusting stats here and there. Might as well wait until an expansion pack to address them.) The negative attitude on tl.net toward protoss is what's frustrating, not the game itself. | ||
covote
United States86 Posts
These are easy to do tools in the terran bag that make them very deadly. If you have problems with deathball dont let us get there. if all a toss can do is herp derp 1a then you are free to tech and exapnd riskily because they cant harass or pressure. I'm not saying toss is hard to play, but there are devastating things you can do as terran that dont require much apm or multitasking. User was warned for this post | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:44 covote wrote: man i sure wish i had stim + medivacs that devours probes, buildings and units. Sure wish i had concussive shells that prevents solid map presence early game. I sure wish i had an HT with snipe and a regular attack. I sure wish i had reliable harass(stimmed drops, banshees, helions). Sure wish i had cheap bunkers + repair that make early expos risk free. Sure wish i could lose half my probes and be on equal resources. sure wish my T1 could actually compete. These are easy to do tools in the terran bag that make them very deadly. If you have problems with deathball dont let us get there. if all a toss can do is herp derp 1a then you are free to tech and exapnd riskily because they cant harass or pressure. I'm not saying toss is hard to play, but there are devastating things you can do as terran that dont require much apm or multitasking. Make sure you wish you had the skill to make all the things you listed effective. HT with snipe and regular attack? Really? You have a unit that does all that, but also basically after it dies(aka becomes useless) you can morph 2 into a very powerful t3 unit. So get out of here with that shit. Wish your T1 competed?...oh ok thats why you build gateways units all throughout the game right because they dont compete?...I would even say they scale better than the terran army, because late game bio is the only option we have all of which Colossi and HTs eat through. Not to mention that 3/3 chargelots are pretty damn beefy. Bunkers are cheap and ya we can repair, but you know that 1 stalker can kill a shit load of marines right? We need a to invest 100minerals into a bunker just so we dont take significant damage from early stalkers. So again you don't know what you are talking about. Oh and shield regeneration is like repair mechanic, except you dont have to pay minerals to repair. All protoss talk about what we can in the early game, whats Terran option for late game? besides death. If you guys yourselves suggest that we finish the game early game, then don't come complain about Terran early game dynamics especially when we have no choice or options. | ||
Skamtet
Canada634 Posts
On April 10 2012 00:44 covote wrote: man i sure wish i had stim + medivacs that devours probes, buildings and units. Sure wish i had concussive shells that prevents solid map presence early game. I sure wish i had an HT with snipe and a regular attack. I sure wish i had reliable harass(stimmed drops, banshees, helions). Sure wish i had cheap bunkers + repair that make early expos risk free. Sure wish i could lose half my probes and be on equal resources. sure wish my T1 could actually compete. These are easy to do tools in the terran bag that make them very deadly. If you have problems with deathball dont let us get there. if all a toss can do is herp derp 1a then you are free to tech and exapnd riskily because they cant harass or pressure. I'm not saying toss is hard to play, but there are devastating things you can do as terran that dont require much apm or multitasking. This post is full of bullshit. User was warned for this post | ||
Enzymatic
Canada1301 Posts
Sup terran player. User was warned for this post | ||
Superneenja
United States154 Posts
Sup person who can't play terran. User was warned for this post | ||
ETisME
12082 Posts
not too surprised to see TvZ dropped though. after all these time, for the 1st time zerg finally has >50% win rate against terran but it feels like the good terrans are already figuring out how to deal with late game pretty well already. Won't be surprised the win rate goes back to ~50% after it becomes more well-known | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 10 2012 01:36 ETisME wrote: really interesting to see terran is actually beating toss in win rate. I always felt the matchup is so heavily favoring toss since the double up went mainstream. not too surprised to see TvZ dropped though. after all these time, for the 1st time zerg finally has >50% win rate against terran but it feels like the good terrans are already figuring out how to deal with late game pretty well already. Won't be surprised the win rate goes back to ~50% after it becomes more well-known PvT results do seem to go against the vibe from the community. But if you look at the number of protoss players that made it to the higher brackets, it doesn't seem that out of place. Terrans seem to putting on more agression in the early game the protoss off their macro builds. They also seem to be working out how to expand behind these builds that include early banshees or tanks. I am excited to see more of it(though I don't want to see banshees on the ladder, hate them with the fire of a nova). | ||
RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
Terran in BW is similar, it requires great micro and mechanics to use, but no one would dare to say that after 3/4 old bonjwas being terran + Flash that it is a underpowered race, even though PvT has been historically favored towards P for the most part. | ||
larse
1611 Posts
In the first chart, the international one, PvT, Terran has higher winrates in every month except 2011 nov and 2012 feb. ZvT, Terran has all higher winrates except 2012 mar, the gap is slightly smaller than PvT. ZvP, Zerg has higher winrates in all time periods. And the gap is larger than PvT and ZvT. In the second chart, the Korean only one, PvT, Terran has higher winrates in all months except 2011 nov, 2012 jan, and feb. And there are some ridiculously large gaps that favor Terran. ZvT, Terran has all higher winrates except 2011 jul and 2012 mar. Some of the gaps are also extremely large. ZvP, Zerg has higher winrates in 7 time periods, while Protoss has higher winrates in 5 time periods. It's relatively equal compare to other charts, but the gap in each time period is also large, so the winrate swings a lot. To sum up, the overall trends that these charts demonstrate are: 1, In general, the winrates of three races seem relatively equal, even the Korean chart shows a trend of convergence. But when you look at the charts of PvT, ZvT, ZvP, the winrates are obviously not equal. 2, Terran has higher winrates in almost all of the time periods against Protoss; 3, Terran has higher winrates in almost all of the time periods against Zerg; 4, Zerg has higher winrates in most of the time periods against Protoss. | ||
Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7434 Posts
On April 11 2012 18:12 Cereb wrote: I am so sick of these charts never ever suiting my ladder experience! :p I've been humiliated by toss for so long and crushing terrans, but now I can't beat terrans to save my life and toss has gotten alot alot easier for me...and suddenly! the chart tells me that terran has gotten easier for foreigner zerg ! hehe go watch stephano. if protoss FFE, do the 12 minute max roaches push if protoss 1 gate expand, do the mass spines infestor build into mass broodlords/infestor. you can't lose XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I kid, but those are really strong metagame builds against toss right now. | ||
Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
On April 11 2012 18:16 neoghaleon55 wrote: go watch stephano. if protoss FFE, do the 12 minute max roaches push if protoss 1 gate expand, do the mass spines infestor build into mass broodlords/infestor. you can't lose XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD I kid, but those are really strong metagame builds against toss right now. No no, I'm trying to say that toss is easier now but terran has suddenly become really hard for me | ||
neoghaleon55
United States7434 Posts
On April 11 2012 18:55 Cereb wrote: No no, I'm trying to say that toss is easier now but terran has suddenly become really hard for me oh hehe I like doing the DRG 8:40 roachbling bust/pressure in almost every game...Terrans are so greedy on ladder.... they need to be punished! *whips whips* :D | ||
Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
On April 11 2012 19:09 neoghaleon55 wrote: oh hehe I like doing the DRG 8:40 roachbling bust/pressure in almost every game...Terrans are so greedy on ladder.... they need to be punished! *whips whips* :D Hahaha! I like your point But I find that most Terran gets a seige tank out rather early and that seems to nulify this ? | ||
neoghaleon55
United States7434 Posts
On April 11 2012 19:16 Cereb wrote: Hahaha! I like your point But I find that most Terran gets a seige tank out rather early and that seems to nulify this ? The tanks will be out, but they won't be at the natural in time or else they risk being overrunned before seige mode finishes. Most of the time, if you hit this timing correctly, the tank will be on the main...you can camp the natural for a long time and there's nothing terran can do about it, all while droning your two bases (don't go up the main ramp in this situation! it's suicide!). The only way terran can stop this pressure without damage is by 1 basing really hard, like 3 or 4 rax, double tech lab marauder pumping/tank researching route. In that case, you auto die, XD. | ||
Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
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drbrown
Sweden442 Posts
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
On April 11 2012 20:36 VTPerfect wrote: where are the stats showing protoss > terran at low levels? and even if there was an imbalance i think the top level problem of terran > protoss is much more important... Yeah, and not to get off topic but again, any sort of balance at the lower levels would make as much sense as the MLB balancing the pro level for people who play T-ball. | ||
dCc
Canada86 Posts
If anything we should see the Protosses whining. None of the latest patches have changed the matchup much at all. The metagame has evolved, now it is Terrans turn to innovate past bioball. | ||
ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On April 12 2012 18:16 dCc wrote: Even with the stats, I can't believe that we still hear so much Terran whining. They say that Protoss is overpowered but the stats say otherwise If anything we should see the Protosses whining. None of the latest patches have changed the matchup much at all. The metagame has evolved, now it is Terrans turn to innovate past bioball. At this point no one should like really whining... the game is way more balanced than at any point in time ever. Considering the fact that terrans are >still< doing extremely well, while lower tier terrans cry imba, it shows in my opinion that they are too entitled with the rather easy wins they got when reapers/stim timing/blueflame/... were in fact imbalanced. That´s why Blizzard changed it - not just the "whining" from the other races. When you lose macro games, train harder or do something funky you/your race is good at. In general the better/more solid player wins. Period. There are some problems, but that´s to expect after such a short time. People always say BW had around 10 years to "mature" until it got to the nearly perfect state it is now. Let Blizz do their job, they usually do pretty well. With that said, I am pretty glad they threw out the units that were flashy in the HotS presentation, but are really questionable as being fit for competitive gaming. | ||
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