This is episode 1 of a series of vlogs by ClouD. The topic he speaks about in this episode is something I personally think a lot about. In this video he talks about how he feels that the majority of popular casters right now basically "abuse" the popularity of SC2. He says that the current situation is very sad, because casters get too much money and fame for too little effort. I completely agree with this statements. Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game. Their career is not affected by win or loss.
I want to compare this to other sports like Football (soccer). The players are the stars there, they earn the most amount of money and they are also the "faces" of the sport. The players stand for the sports pretty much. In SC2 the situation is almost reversed. There are only a handful of players who compare to the popularity of the casters.
The worst part for me and ClouD also mentions that in the video is that many casters don't even try to understand or increase their game knowlegde. I mean they LIVE OFF THIS GAME called Starcraft 2, but apperantly they don't even bother to learn the game properly.
At this point I'd like to talk about iNcontroL, he gets a lot of hate for being a "bad progamer" and many people don't like that he has a lot of support. But the only reason he does get all this hate is that he still considers himself mainly a player and not a "community figure" or a caster. I respect that a lot. He does a lot for the community while he still plays SC2 at a pretty high level. He doesn't make it easy for himself by going fulltime caster. It would definitely make his life a little easier and make a majority of the people hating on him dissappear, but he doesn't choose this way because he still loves the game and for me this is a prove that he is not in the SC2 scene for the money and attention.
I wish the community would show more support for the players "who live for the game". Hard work and practice doesn't get enough credit in this community and after all the proscene only exists because we have people who practice their ass off to entertain you.
I hope the casters start to appreciate their current position a little more and maybe instead of promoting themself all day everyday they should spend a little more time on SC2 and learn the game a little more so that they can give more insights.
Something I also want to speak about is the constant self promotion of casters during tournaments and casts. They say "you can follow us on twitter" between like every set of games. I think when they do it it would also be nice if they also promoted the twitter accounts of the players they currently cast. Its just a small thing but in my opinion it would be appropriate.
Also mad respect to ClouD who addresses this topic. I am extremely sure that many pro gamers think the same way but many don't make their opinion public because they are afraid of negative feedback from the community and of course its also important to have good relations to the casters. He was also the one who created the topic about tournaments not paying prize money or way too late. I appreciate that we have such outspoken members in our community. I remember HuK also spoke a little bit about this in an interview, but other than that I've never seen pro gamers commenting on this.
I would be interested what the community thinks about this topic. I feel like most people don't even realize that such a problem exists, but maybe I am wrong.
Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. Day9 is always busy with anything SC related. Some casters might not be as good as others but that's why they're not as populair as others. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
Thought about it alot myself. There are so many players which could make they're life easier and get better paid by becoming caster. And so many casters who work a fraction of the time those pro's do and still get better paid. 'Like that ClouD is calling those topics out.
Edit:
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
ClouD mentioned that those gsl casters do they're job good. He "blamed" the "foreigner caster" where its obvious that he didnt' exclude the korean speaking caster but the ones living over there.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time.
Do you? and really do they?
Think they mentioned it a couple of times on the GSL so.... They do work long hours and try to improve their cast. So let's not have them under appriciated.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
If you watched it, you would also know that he isn't talking about the GSL casters when he criticizes work ethic. Interesting vlog from ClouD, I'm looking forward to seeing more. It may be controversial what he says, but I love his outspokenness.
On May 01 2012 23:43 amityXixo wrote: Thought about it alot myself. There are so many players which could make they're life easier and get better paid by becoming caster. And so many casters who work a fraction of the time those pro's do and still get better paid. 'Like that ClouD is calling those topics out.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
ClouD mentioned that those gsl casters do they're job good. He "blamed" the "foreigner caster" where its obvious that he didnt' exclude the korean speaking caster but the ones living over there.
I highly disagree with this. Not because I don't value the sacrifices that the players make but because I just don't think what they say is true.
The reason casters have become the cornerstone is because they have attracted a huge audience to the e-sport that wouldn't have been there otherwise. SC2 had a lot of people come into the sport that started off with watching HD or Husky on Youtube.
Another thing to take into consideration is that these casters immediatly made it into a business by pushing out a lot of videos and building themselves a personality. It resulted into getting them masses of followers (and in turn: money) who wanted them to be involved in e-sport tournaments. I'd guess that they wanted money to be comparable to what they'd make by not going to said tournament and hence the pay differential started to exist.
Now honestly it appears to me that the players want it both ways: they want the game to be big but not make the sacrifices that come with that (giving the cornerstone position to the casters).
I do agree though that there are a lot of bad casters out there who don't know what they're talking about. Having said that though I only watch major tournaments myself and the only one who does those tournaments and has that problem is HD. Besides that I am personally fine with the casting I get but that's most likely due to what I watch. I would imagine that the lower tier of tournaments have worse casting.
"Day9 gives players credit for random shit" that's just true, also viewers give day9 too much credit for casting and saying random shit.
I don't really like Khaldors english casting but he's okay in german.
Don't see why he's giving credit to Total Bisquit, his voice is so fucking annoying. Also he is one of the least knowlagable casters at all, so this is pretty weird.
I do agree with this somewhat, but I think this is going to be a problem for a while until later on in the games lifespan. In BW everyone knew players and not casters. However I don't think it's anyone's place to judge who should and shouldn't be successful. Working hard is a virtue, but being interesting and promoting yourself is too.
I can tell you, from the time I did casting, that yes, it's a fulltime job, and yes, you appreciate every gig you get.
Keep in mind, you don't just magically get a good paying job as a caster. You have to put in tons of hours of your own time and dedication, just to be seen and accepted (a tough feat in this scene) I worked full time with a computer job plus tried doing my casting.
As a player, you have to play the game to become better, and hopefully make it pro. Not much is different for the caster.
On May 01 2012 23:49 Greenei wrote: Well then go be a caster I guess.
"Day9 gives players credit for random shit" that's just true, also viewers give day9 too much credit for casting and saying random shit.
I don't really like Khaldors english casting but he's okay in german.
Don't see why he's giving credit to Total Bisquit, his voice is so fucking annoying. Also he is one of the least knowlagable casters at all, so this is pretty weird.
Well TB gets the fans excited about the game.
In the infancy of the Esports industry, getting lots of people very interested and entertained by Starcraft is a very good thing.
Actually in my opinion the SC2 community is for the most part built by great casters like day[9], tastosis, apollo,tb, khaldor and others. Without these people SC2 wouldn't be half of what it is now I think. There are lots of people who picked up SC2 just because they watched very entertaining cast, casters made them intrigued about the game, people wanted to give it a try to see for themselves how it really is to play SC2. Let's face it, players alone wouldn't have built community as big as it is right now. Most people even though they play some SC2 they wouldn't even understand what is going on in the pro game if the game wasn't commentated. Casters make SC2 people friendly at the highest level. Salaries are other part but there's nothing we can do about it, only players themselves can try to get a better contract, stream to get some money from ads, practice their ass off to win some tournaments etc, they chose to be players and I dont think any of them actually thought it is going to be easy at all, yet they do it because they love the game, competitive part of it, joy of winning, bitter taste of loss and the the amazing feel when they get on the stage and thousands of people are chanting their name, clap their hands.. I bet it is something they wouldn't want to lose even if they got paid for it.
On May 01 2012 23:49 Greenei wrote: Well then go be a caster I guess.
"Day9 gives players credit for random shit" that's just true, also viewers give day9 too much credit for casting and saying random shit.
I don't really like Khaldors english casting but he's okay in german.
Don't see why he's giving credit to Total Bisquit, his voice is so fucking annoying. Also he is one of the least knowlagable casters at all, so this is pretty weird.
Well TB gets the fans excited about the game.
In the infancy of the Esports industry, getting lots of people very interested and entertained by Starcraft is a very good thing.
The difference is also that Totalbiscuit has a career outside of e-sport (a vast majority of his income comes from his general gaming videos on his channel), and he reinvest most of his sc2 money in the community with the shoutcraft invitational, sponsoring Bling etc. The problem with a lot of player regarding caster seems to be that they feel that caster are "leeching" the industry and get some underserved recognition, which is not the case of TB. And also he is not trying to be an analytical caster. Having little knowledge is ok as long as you're paired with a good analytical caster. Faking knowledge is very annoying though.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time.
Do you? and really do they?
Think they mentioned it a couple of times on the GSL so.... They do work long hours and try to improve their cast. So let's not have them under appriciated.
I don't know their exact schedules but I do know that the original reason for hiring Code A casters was because it was too large a workload for just Tastosis to cast.
What casters in particular aren't putting in the effort though? I suppose Husky could try a little harder to improve his game knowledge but then again he doesn't cast nearly as many live events as other big names and I think his niche in the community is an important one - he gets the younger/newbier crowd interested in the scene while still being entertaining enough for most everyone to enjoy his casting.
And most of the other prominent casters have sufficient game knowledge or are making an attempt to.
You could argue that there are more than a few pro players who don't put in the time or the effort but get compensated nicely anyway. Casters in general put in a lot of time and energy just like most players, it's just a different skill/talent.
Personalities and amazing tip top play sells. If you aren't winning tournaments and if you aren't putting effort in to be in the public eye then you as a player are failing. Pro players take on the role of PR spokesperson, manager, publicist, etc since esports isn't big enough yet to have those jobs. In real sports, the athletes have a team of people handling everything for them.
There are caster who really encourage themselves for the community, for example: Day9, Artosis, Apollo, TB and Wheat (although I don't like his cast), Khaldor. And there are also caster like Mori(german), HD, Painuser, JP, Rob etc. who I accuse of being opportunistic. Yeah sure, they provide content and keep the game big (and helping making it bigger), but I assume their main concern seems to be how much money they can make by with the game
On May 01 2012 23:49 Greenei wrote: Well then go be a caster I guess.
"Day9 gives players credit for random shit" that's just true, also viewers give day9 too much credit for casting and saying random shit.
I don't really like Khaldors english casting but he's okay in german. Don't see why he's giving credit to Total Bisquit, his voice is so fucking annoying. Also he is one of the least knowlagable casters at all, so this is pretty weird.
I personally haven't watched the vlog as I'm on a phone right now but I think I can answer this for you anyway.
1| He barely makes any money of his SC2 work and uses it pretty much as a marketing tool to get people to his main channel. The sponsoring of DignitasBling is an example of this.
2| His SCI tournaments are very popular with the players which very likely is because he pays out on the same day. Remember ClouD's post ranting about tournaments that didn't pay out at all or very late?
On another note: have you recently watched TB's casting? I have to say that I personally didn't watch it early on but the last few months he's become very good in partnership with Apollo. His knowledge is still inferior to, for example, Artosis but it's been a long time since I've heard him make terrible mistakes.
Also the asking of questions can bring it across more clearly to your audience, a lot of whom don't play the game (at a high level). I would imagine that there are plenty of times that TB asks Apollo a question while he himself already knows the answer.
The day[9] part is probably going to get a lot of hate but I kinda of agree with him. I stopped watching the day[9] daily because he overanalyzes all the time which is really annoying imo. But still he deserves where he's at because he has done so much for the community and played a major role in the growth of esports.
On May 02 2012 00:01 ooozer wrote: There are caster who really encourage themselves for the community, for example: Day9, Artosis, Apollo, TB and Wheat (although I don't like his cast), Khaldor. And there are also caster like Mori(german), HD, Painuser, JP, Rob etc. who I accuse of being opportunistic. Yeah sure, they provide content and keep the game big (and helping making it bigger), but I assume their main concern seems to be how much money they can make by with the game
Rob... works for Blizzard.
So yeah obviously the progress of the game's growth is relevant to the money he makes but in a pretty different way.
On May 02 2012 00:03 metho wrote: The day[9] part is probably going to get a lot of hate but I kinda of agree with him. I stopped watching the day[9] daily because he overanalyzes all the time which is really annoying imo.
Isn't that what Day9Daily originally was? Ever watched the broodwar ones where he analyses the shit out of games, even the first day9daily was perhaps one of the most analytical one of them all, I personally like super analysis on simple and little things, reminds me of my English classes.
I agree with the order of best caster combos out there... I dont agree much about day9 coz I love his cast.. but I really agree with the real problem here and its that players really should get payed more.. so sad but seems we are still not there.
I don't think ClouD is criticizing casters for making the community bigger and bringing new viewers.
From what I get, he feels like most casters don't try to steadily improve their casting and their game knowledge, instead they're happy with keeping their position and the status quo, while players are forced to and want to improve and put tons of work into it without getting much recognition.
I always find it funny that the only players who are vocal about this are foreigners. There aren't really that many top level casters who get to cast big events. It's only a small number of them who are making any real money.
The fact of the matter is, these few casters do more for the game than a bunch of second rate players. I mean, no offense, not specifically talking ClouD, this could apply to many pros atm, but, why should fans care about players who have almost no potential of ever winning a big tournament?
I understand supporting players first, but honestly, there's a huge over-saturation of players atm. Most of the current pros will never be able to compete with Korean pros and are just riding the SC2 bubble just like these casters.
ClouD should stop worrying so much about other people and focus on himself. If he wins a tournament he will get support. If not, don't be surprised if the community doesn't care for you.
There are people in this world who make huge money with next to none effort, and people who make almost no money with huge effort. There are three reasons why this usually happens. 1. Some people are born in a more entitled family/have better connections. 2. Some people are born with more talent. 3. Some people have had better luck.
I think its compleatly ridiculous that people who chose their career to be pro sc2 player, are butthurt that other people who started on 100% equal grounds are having an easier career as sc2 casters.
If you have regrets, then start casting. It should be no harder for you, than it was for tastless/moletrap/husky. Nobody is holding your back. Sc2 pro gamers have this privilege that most people do not have.
This is ridicoulous. I think if you told for example khaldor that you think hes not working hard he would punch you in the face. Rightfully so. This guy talks to players, gets insight, learns korean, improves his english, etc. and literaly casts his ass of sometimes..
On May 02 2012 00:13 MWY wrote: This is ridicoulous. I think if you told for example khaldor that you think hes not working hard he would punch you in the face. Rightfully so. This guy talks to players, gets insight, learns korean, improves his english, etc. and literaly casts his ass of sometimes..
He praises Khaldor for doing his job really well, listening to the vlog before commenting might be a good idea...
On May 02 2012 00:13 MWY wrote: This is ridicoulous. I think if you told for example khaldor that you think hes not working hard he would punch you in the face. Rightfully so. This guy talks to players, gets insight, learns korean, improves his english, etc. and literaly casts his ass of sometimes..
well, then maybe that's the reason why ClouD actually said that Khaldor does all these things and considers him the "Artosis of SC2"...
you should watch the video before you comment on it
On May 02 2012 00:13 MWY wrote: This is ridicoulous. I think if you told for example khaldor that you think hes not working hard he would punch you in the face. Rightfully so. This guy talks to players, gets insight, learns korean, improves his english, etc. and literaly casts his ass of sometimes..
He praises Khaldor for doing his job really well, listening to the vlog before commenting might be a good idea...
I'm glad someone finally called out Day9. His casting is way over the top and nonsensical most of the time at major events.
Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
I dont know. I dont think he gives enough credit to some casters.
Its hard to categorize casters in terms of "really good", "pretty good", etc so Im just gonna use numbers for this purpose. If all casters would be put on a scale from 1-10 where 10 is best, what he is basically doing is praising all the 9-10 casters and shitting on the 6-8 ones. What he is forgetting is that theres a huge amount of 1-5 casters out there if you turn into random weekly cups, community casters, etc. Thats like we'd be shitting on everyone except DRG, MKP and maybe a handful of other players while calling the rest of the players terrible.
I agree mostly with his opinions about casters though. Apollo and Artosis are the best analytical ones and CatsPajamas and TB (and Husky too if you ask me) the best play-by-play ones. But calling most of the others really bad isnt really fair either. I also dont think he gives enough credit to casters who can bring excitement (day9 is awesome at bringing excitement even though its a lot of "fluff" and giving credit to random things like he points out) to games.
That said, some jobs are just more about natural talent and other jobs about hard work. Thats just how things are. And being a player is probably more dependant on work than being a caster. Training yourself to be an exciting caster is almost impossible. If you could just train yourself to be exciting, charismatic, well spoken, etc then everyone would. Very few players could be like Grubby when casting.
I like ClouD as a player...and i always enjoy him watching or attend tournaments...but he is complaining a lot. Thats okay...but sometimes i would like to hear him talk about positive aspects of the community
Its probably not fair but I dont think its an issue regardless. Things like this happen outside of SC2 too. There will always be jobs and positions that are more beneficial but are easier at the same time. I also don't think that the casters owe it to the community to try and improve. They got their job fair and square and can do whatever they want within the confines of their employment. Not every cop or firefighter cares about the community, they are there for monetary compensation but it doesn't mean they are incompetent.
I do agree though that casters should if your a full time caster, you should try to keep up to date with the metagame. You dont necessarily have to be good at the game yourself but at least be knowledgeable about it. I find the lack of insight in husky's casts after 2 years is kinda unacceptable. He makes up for it by being entertaining and maintaining a stream of content but yeesh that guy is a bad gamer all around if you watch him play other games. So I dont like it when he casts tournaments.
On May 02 2012 00:19 Dexington wrote: I'm glad someone finally called out Day9. His casting is way over the top and nonsensical most of the time at major events.
Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
This is pretty much exactly how I feel. I would maybe also add Hasuobs, I'm always amazed how good his casts are when he occasionally does some
It's funny, the pro's complain about the casters who help bring in the 'new players' or 'noobs' to the scene. Without these new players the scene would fizzle out and the pro's wouldn't stand to earn half the money they're looking at at the moment (don't misunderstand, I don't mean casters do it all by any means). Sure casters get a lot of the limelight but their role in garnering attention for e-Sports is completely different to any other real sport/art. I also think Cloud is right in saying that many could really put more effort in and gain a greater understanding but I don't think this is necessary for 'announcer' type casters.
I think for big figures like Cloud, keeping away from this type of non-sense is the best way to go. I'm sure it's not hard to get in contact with some casters to give them some analytical pointers and start-points. Raising such a point reeks of jealousy and a lust for cash in my opinion but regardless I have immense respect for Cloud.
I do wish that casters would prepare more. I remember somebody (probably Bitter/Rottie) saying that d.Apollo brings notes to his casting so he has player stats, records and other stuff he can talk about before during and after a game. The kind of prep that RL Sport casters do, and the kind of thing that korean commentators do in both starcrafts. The beginning of a majority of foreign casts are "There was this time when i was X years old... ...and now the game has started to take shape..."
The stuff i want to hear are things like: "This map plays this MU in X ways because of Y and Z features" - we have 'analytically casters' yet i rarely here any real detail of this except for "here are the winrates on this map, looks good for our terran player, here!"
"This player has good recent results vs X on this map and overall, his previous wins over Y player has him going with some momentum" - because it lets you know the players history, you can know hes played a chain of games and how well he's doing. it helps connect the games to make it seem like an actual series rather than playing on a game-per-game or BoX-per-BoX setup i could have worded that last sentence better =\
On May 01 2012 23:49 Greenei wrote: Well then go be a caster I guess.
"Day9 gives players credit for random shit" that's just true, also viewers give day9 too much credit for casting and saying random shit.
I don't really like Khaldors english casting but he's okay in german.
Don't see why he's giving credit to Total Bisquit, his voice is so fucking annoying. Also he is one of the least knowlagable casters at all, so this is pretty weird.
Well, I guess because TB does a lot for the players, like hosting the SCI and sponsoring Bling. Also he clearly does not need any money, because he gets more from his youtube channel.
Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness. He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level. He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them... I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote: Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness. He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level. He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them... I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
Khaldor casts tournaments at like 5AM. He is a mad man lol
Didn't watch much, but caught the bit about his favorite/least favorite casters. I agree with him, but also wanted to add that I find casters who over-analyze and try to make sense of randomness (as he talks about with Day9) much harder to listen to than those who don't offer any deep insight into the game whatsoever.
Not every decision a player makes is a stroke of genius, and sometimes they just get lucky. Admitting a play isn't perfect doesn't make it any less exciting, so be honest in your analysis.
On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote: Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness. He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level. He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them... I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
Khaldor casts tournaments at like 5AM. He is a mad man lol
Khaldor dreams about casting imo. Such a dedicated and awesome guy.
I actually agree with most of what Cloud said (apart from the opinion that Apollo is "just OK"). Plus, it's his opinion, and he just speaks it openly, I wouldn't say he's whining or anything. Maybe he needed to let off some steam.
The thing I'd stress out is the will to improve. It's the same with both casters and players. Some people get better with time, some fade into obscurity. And those who remain are the deserving ones - Artosis is still the best caster around, Apollo or Rotterdam are also continually good, and IMO, Khaldor (or the WolfDor combo, respectively) is getting better and better with each cast. Some casters are kinda stale and don't really get better. I'd name HD and Moletrap (who probably fell out of SC2 casting for good). Again, that's my opinion.
Good thing he highlighted both the quality of play-by-play casting and player casting.
And a little question... everyone keeps saying that the Korean commentary is awesome. Is there any way to watch it in an "understandable" way or do you have to learn Korean to fully appreciate the awesome? :D
On May 02 2012 00:29 Warpath wrote: The stuff i want to hear are things like: "This map plays this MU in X ways because of Y and Z features" - we have 'analytically casters' yet i rarely here any real detail of this except for "here are the winrates on this map, looks good for our terran player, here!"
"This player has good recent results vs X on this map and overall, his previous wins over Y player has him going with some momentum" - because it lets you know the players history, you can know hes played a chain of games and how well he's doing. it helps connect the games to make it seem like an actual series rather than playing on a game-per-game or BoX-per-BoX setup i could have worded that last sentence better =\
Orb is really good at that.
Despite what some members of the community tend to think about him, he's really one of the best casters out there.
The only casters I really have problems with are HD/PainUser and JP. HD not as much as PainUser though. It seems like he just woke up one morning and said "Well, playing isn't working out as well as I thought, maybe I should give this casting thing a try" and then it worked. He seems to have made no forward progress or evolution in his casting since he started.
Honorable mention here goes to Moletrap; I never really liked his casting personally but he clearly put a lot of effort into not only improving his knowledge about the game and the players to a degree almost nobody else does. I hope he continues to cast SC2 alongside his LoL project with OGN.
On May 01 2012 23:59 Kraznaya wrote: people who think casters have a tough job that involves a specialized set of skills haven't listened to real pro players do casting
this .
most casters never been grandmaster , yet then i wonder myself : how can you CASTER explain this game to a huge crowd if you dont even know the game yourself and your view over the game is limited due to you not playing it or not being good enough at playing it .
I completey agree with him that most casters have no clue what they're talking about and they still are more popular/get more money than players who try x100 as hard. I agree about Artosis being the best caster, but that's obvious for everyone with a little brain. Yes, Day9 talks too much about small stuff, which I don't enjoy too. Yes it is sad that casters who put zero effort to improve their casting/game knowledge are more recognizable and get more money than players who live for that game. Lol-ed so hard about the TLO comment. Yes, the aren't enough top notch casters right now, which is sad. I absolutely agree and support his statement about that the community must stop supporting terrible casters who do terrible job.
Well there is definitely some truth in cloud's words but it is also a very player biased view.
Instead of hating on TLO he should have take him as an example how you can self promote yourself. It's not the caster's fault that they are more popular than the players. If you don't pay attention to your fans (e.g through facebook, twitter, shows, TL forum) then you won't get that much recognition.
Artosis Tasteless Day9 djWHEAT dApollo RotterdaM MrBitter Wolf Khaldor DoA CatsPajamas Husky TotalBiscuit HD PainUser itsmeJP Rob Simpson (?)
Personally I think Day9 produces a lot of good content with his dalies and tries to make different tournaments such as the AHGL and works well with redbull lan.
djWHEAT really produces a lot of content from the OneMoreGame.tv with different shows such as inside the game, kings of tin and sometimes EG MCSL
Rotterdam and MrBitter now with NASL and even before that always casted tons of games for many many hours and Rotterdam plays the game at a high level.
Anyways ClouD said it and he knows it, personality and knowing how to speak. Many of the watchers are not really grandmaster level and wouldn't really understand the insight that a progamer would give. But these casters with personalities simply make the game much more entertaining.
I do agree though with some of his points. I mean come on JP, HD, PainUser, Rob Simpson?
It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
Well d'apollo is the ideal caster. Hes charismatic, knowledgable, creates lots of useful content and is a hardworker. Hes the only one who deserves all the popularity he gets
Yeh I too mostly agree with Cloud's opinion on the matter.
I mean there are a couple casters that he missed (not on purpose) or that I'd just like to add to the top ones, such as Wolf but else yes, he has my consent.
A caster like Wolf, Artosis, Rotterdam, Grubby and others I am forgetting are my dream. They talk well, they're fun to listen to, you can SEE their extra work put into this and on top of that, they have some special genuine interest in this game they're casting, Starcraft 2, and, to some degree deriving from that, of course competitiveness as well. They just enjoy a good match of Starcraft 2 so much that even if they don't immediately throw around "best game ever" you just feel it.
But even if that genuine interest isn't or doesn't appear to be there I still have a lot respect for and rather enjoy listening to casters that DO put in a lot work. That just try to do a damn good job.
Meanwhile when people lack both of it... let's just say I'd love to see Artosis cast with Wolf every time instead of the good old Archon as things are just now...
It is very sad that a person who practices 10 hours a day gets paid only if he wins and casters getting 5 digit sums for casting on a such a low level.Many times they misinform the audience due to their own lack of knowledge.DApollo, incontrol , Tastosis, Day9 all great casters,but sadly there are casters who want to take their paycheck and wont even bother ladder 2 FCKN HOURS A DAY so they get at least into diamond.thats a shame.
It's basic economics - casters matter a lot to a tournament, and there are actually only a very small number who are very good. That means you have to pay them a lot to get them at your tournament. But the second tier of casters is improving a lot. Wolf is very good. Husky has gotten a *lot* better. Orb and Adebisi casting ESV is extremely good. dApollo is very good. Even some of the less good people for my taste (TotalBiscuit, for example) have gotten a lot better. We're getting to the point where if one of the top casters is asking an insane price, tournaments should feel more comfortable going to the next tier of casters without it destroying their tournament. That will only become more true with time. And as that becomes true, caster pay will stop going up and players will catch up. You can already see some of the worse casters starting to disappear. JP used to cast main MLG tournaments - now he hosts and maybe casts the qualifiers and so forth. Gretorp is now only casting NASL half the time. IPL uses CatsPajamas and DoA for their nightly shows, rather than HD and PainUser, who I think are clearly worse.
I also wouldn't be surprised if before too long one or two players retire and become very good casters. And then eventually we'll get to the point where the only way into a good casting job is to be a pro for a while first, at which point no one will have anything to complain about.
Is it just me or is there a lot of whining going on here today? Sure mid and lower tier professional players deserve more recognition but unfortunately the world isn't fair. In my opinion the onus for changing this situation is with the medium to hardcore fans to check out random streams. Especially during those (rare) times that there are no events that are of interest to them are on. Check out those streams that aren't by top level players. They often have hidden gems. I watched snute's stream for the first time yesterday and (aside from sheth) he is now my favorite stream to watch. He explains his builds and reactions and answers fan questions in between. The amount of insight you can gain from watching a very top level pro and a non-code S level pro is negligible and they may well provide more articulate explanations.
The majority of casters I watch do a great job and most of the rest have side jobs/responsibilities that prevent them from dedicating more than 40 hours a week (which is what it seems like the OP/Cloud expects of casters).
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
Jinro providing a reasonable viewpoint. Most of this comes across as Cloud whining.
In all seriousness, if he thinks casters have it so easy, he should try casting sometime. Players have turned into casters before. It wouldn't be a first. If things don't work out for him, maybe he'll be able to admit his viewpoint was wrong. If things do work out for him, then hey, who's he to complain?
I think Artosis is the only good caster out there. He actually has it as a 100% job and he plays alot/ has passion for the game when he is not casting. Tasteless used to be like that aswell in brood war, but I think he has lost some of his starcraft passion and is not so good anymore(still ok).
I dont like that famous people in the community just suddenly become casters, it is something that you have to work a long time on to get good at. You cant just decide to be a caster and cast for thousands of people in a huge tournament with the best players in the world. It just becomes acward and bad in my opinion.
ClouD definitely has some good points, there are way to many "casters" that suck at their job and in some ways ruin a good tournament.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
Jinro providing a reasonable viewpoint. Most of this comes across as Cloud whining.
In all seriousness, if he thinks casters have it so easy, he should try casting sometime. Players have turned into casters before. It wouldn't be a first. If things don't work out for him, maybe he'll be able to admit his viewpoint was wrong. If things do work out for him, then hey, who's he to complain?
That's a pretty unfair way of looking at it tho, you might as well tell him to become an investment banker or something.
Well the point is: Most viewers don't notice it, when the caster is telling bullshit and analyzes the game completely wrong, because they don't know it better. Additionally caster "bashing" (aka. criticizing) is forbidden on TL.net livereportthreads, so you only see a complainment if a caster is totally bad at his job like Moletrap or makes a major slip like orb. But caster, who are just bad or not really good at least, just go on, doing their thing. Tournament organisators don't know the game as well and may not have the time to check the abilities of the casters they hire, so our bad caster just goes on, getting jobs and getting paid. If they are not heavily critized, they will not change or try to improve and tournament organisation will go on and hire them. And the actual situation is, that most people don't have the ability to realize, that the casters are bad and believe in what they are told. And the guys who could do it, aren't allowed to.
Casters get plenty of flack already for bad analysis, and even more if they don't carry excitement in their voice. I mean, casters reading this, please be inspired to check replays and vods to get more knowledge into common situations they'll see while casting. Community already levels plenty of firepower on that front from my own experience.
For money, really, how much can a caster who isn't the god-tier of popularity even command? Day9, tasteless, and artosis can ask for quite a bit, maybe a handful behind them including wolf and wheat. Until you get your fame, this isn't a stable income stream for aspiring foreign casters aka don't quit your day job waiting for MLG to call you. Not a lot of impetus to analyze an ever-changing scene, even less considering their main job is getting you excited about what's happening on the screen and why the game matters for the players involved (in this authors opinion). It's natural and expected behavior; nice prodding from ClouD for more and better, though, regardless of tone.
What about Team owners and League owners? A player envies a caster in front of him, but behind both of them someone makes even more money with even less game effort. (if we judge everything by game effort - maybe we shouldn't)
Why care? ClouD is stating the obvious right here. That most casters are objectively bad at their job and don't have single clue about the game is common knowledge. What ClouD does is random...dividing casters in a group of the one's he likes and one he dislikes is not objective at all. All casters are pretty much useless as even "the best" completely fail to point out mistakes in the game which a random diamond league player spots. I've never heard a caster saying something along the lines of "XXX is just playing aweful as is macro is completely off....he has way too few units at this time etc."
If you don't like casting just mute the stream. I enjoy most tournaments completely muted. What Cloud is trying to accomplish here is getting himself some attention he doesn't get by playing. What I have realized for a long time is that skill is never rewarded accordingly unless it is completely outstanding. You don't get any attention for being very good (titan/slivko), a little attention for being extremely good (nerchio) and all the attention for being the best (Stephano) but with non-skill based actions you get tons of attention for basically nothing like attention for being a girl, transgender, hell even a twelve-year-old diamond gets more attention than top grandmaster players.
If Cloud has just realized that having skill doesn't make you famous but doing "random shit" does Congratz Cpt. Obvious! The SCII scene is just like any other business in the world: subjective, unfair and hungry for hypes, flames and gossip. Deal with it.
Cloud has no idea what's going on. The casters are way more vital to the sport than players are right now. Maybe someday later players will get more money, but they need to become more consistent first.
Gotta love Cloud. one my favorite players. Also a person who does speak his mind, but isn't really a total cock about it(well this video might be on the harsher side admittedly). Anyway I think he's right, there are just times when I get so frustrated, where casters are just wrong to the extend you question if they actually play the game.
In any case, it's a bit funny, but of the current people that are casters, if cloud would switch to casting, I think he'd likely be like the 5-6th best caster in the world just straight away.
On May 02 2012 01:09 Lore-Fighting wrote: Cloud has no idea what's going on. The casters are way more vital to the sport than players are right now. Maybe someday later players will get more money, but they need to become more consistent first.
Unfortunately, that is the case... even though there are tons of players playing their hear out all day there are casters who earn much more with less work... but that is how the world has always worked
You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
I don't think anyone has a problem with casters earning good money - if they are any good. Problem is, as said by ClouD, that most of them are indeed not, but still get paid a shitload of money because they made themselves a name.
On May 02 2012 01:09 Lore-Fighting wrote: Cloud has no idea what's going on. The casters are way more vital to the sport than players are right now. Maybe someday later players will get more money, but they need to become more consistent first.
The fact that they're so more vital makes it just sadder that a lot of them are just lacking in some aspects. I don't like the idea of "well caster xyz is kinda popular at the moment, because of this he is more important and improving is totally up to him, It's enough for us".
I think for the situation to turn better for players, they'll have to work it out with their teams. Teams keep a fanbase and bring new fans to new players easier.
The problem is that a lot of teams do not try to grab any attention to build up their fanbases. I believe just EG and TL created more content promoting their teams compared the the rest of the entire foreign scene, and they can keep even their weaker players popular whereas other teams simply ride on their big player names which can fall off when they get into a slump.
That said, I think casters have a tough job too, most of them have to do their own promotion, organise the matches that're about to be played, keep track of the players they have to cast and so on. That's no easy task.
On a more serious note, even though I can totally relate with alot of stuff Cloud said many others may feel different and im sure there are also people that like the casters you just bashed. Next time show some more respect man, (concerning the comments on orb and painuser). I dont like orbs casting too but im not making a video where im imitating him as if he was mentally retarded. Thats not at all a reasonable thing for a grown up human being to do, no matter how annoyed you are by the overall caster-player situation.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
I don't think anyone has a problem with casters earning good money - if they are any good. Problem is, as said by ClouD, that most of them are indeed not, but still get paid a shitload of money because they made themselves a name.
And like someone said on like page 2, they actually just don't try to improve., or in the least, they just aren't improving. I think that's probably the most vital part of all this, and probably where his frustrating originates. They just don't seem to care, they are getting work, they are able to promote themselves and the tournaments seem satisfied with that.
His point that casters aren't working quite as hard as players is not correct. There is a lot of competition between casters and you definitely need to work hard to establish a certain status, at least in the beginning of your career.
I think the actual problem is that oftentimes the wrong people are awarded with caster spots. People like Rob Simpson, who obviously only get picked as casters because they work blizzard, have the insight of a gold league player and yet cast at big MLG events - and I'm not saying he does a bad job in whatever he does for Blizzard, he just shouldnt cast. Generally, in positions where communication skills are important, people who are not really competent in the particular area often still come out on top.
Apart from that, Cloud shouldnt have made the mistake to name specific casters who he disrespects. I don't think that this was a smart move and he generally seems to have a very narrow-minded view on the topic.
On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
I agree. I am glad a pro player has the courage to speak out on injustices they perceive. I hope no one thinks negatively of Cloud for this because, as you say, there is a kernel of truth to it. I just think its an unfortunate reality that players don't get appreciation in proportion to their efforts. Its similar to all the actors/actresses that haven't made it yet.
Well I respect Cloud for stating this opinion loudly because this might bring him a lot of hate. I don't think it's fair that the casters are more important to the community than the players but we have to face reality. SC2 as a game itself doesn't deserve the credit because it's just not that good. It's the scene and storylines that attract the viewers. A lot of people are only watching the streams to be entertained and not to get a nerdgasm on the awesome tactics, and for that to succeed we have to rely on casters who can carry the game.
On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
Agreed, and I'm glad that people haven't just blindly shit on Cloud, as what he is saying is obviously important to him, and to the whole scene.
You have to keep in mind that there is basically two different types of casters. The first is the kind that analyzes the game, Artosis, for example. The second kind is more of the play by play person, someone like Catspajamas or Tasteless. You want to have these two types of casters because when combined together they make up the best casting team. The play by play person typically will mention something like "Well, our Terran player is now getting a Ghost Academy" and the analytically caster will explain why or why not this is a smart move. Naturally the second type of caster doesn't have to know near as much about the game as the first type of caster, it is just the way things work.
Is it fair that they get paid more? Maybe, maybe not. But keep in mind that they are the ones delivering the game to the audience explaining what is going on and why. If you don't like a certain caster then either don't watch the event they are casting for or write to the event organizers explaining why you think they are bad.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
I don't think anyone has a problem with casters earning good money - if they are any good. Problem is, as said by ClouD, that most of them are indeed not, but still get paid a shitload of money because they made themselves a name.
Why is it a problem when a caster gets a shitload of money? If he can get it, he deserves it even if someone thinks he isn't good, that's only a opinion. It's simple as that and its not a problem, if it was a problem, they wouldn't get that much.
On May 02 2012 01:20 ShuttingFromTheSky wrote: Well I respect Cloud for stating this opinion loudly because this might bring him a lot of hate. I don't think it's fair that the casters are more important to the community than the players but we have to face reality. SC2 as a game itself doesn't deserve the credit because it's just not that good. It's the scene and storylines that attract the viewers. A lot of people are only watching the streams to be entertained and not to get a nerdgasm on the awesome tactics, and for that to succeed we have to rely on casters who can carry the game.
Speak for yourself, there are a lot of people that actually enjoy the game.
This thread is full of baseless speculations and random nonsense none of the people arguing have an idea of the salaries of either casters or players.Now if Cloud feels like he isn`t paid fairly and deserve more maybe he should focus more on the game, his personality and self promoting that way he will get paid more.Players who are good and marketable clearly can ask for bigger salaries and will receive them. Bottom line is if you are good at the thing you do you will be paid accordingly/fair to your skills/whatever service you provide.
The real problem is not that casters exploit the fact that they're more popular (and make more money) than most players. I mean why wouldn't they take advantage of this opportunity? The problem is that they are, in fact, more popular. And that's not their fault, but rather our (the fan's) fault. This is a direct consequence of what Tyler pointed out in the SotG thread: many people watch streams for entertainment purposes only, not for Starcraft itself. The vast majority of viewers have very little understanding about what's actually going on in a high level pro game, but they still get excited and watch because the casters are excited, or because there's some form of drama going on. That's why players' stream numbers are directly derived from fame, not from game play level. And even though this is a great thing for the scene in general, cause people who don't even play the game enjoy watching tournaments, I imagine it creates painful situation for many not-so-famous pros. Cause all-in-all it's a shame that someone like ClouD (and many others) who practices hours and hours every day struggles to make a living while some casters (I won't throw in names) with no skill whatsoever have a stable situation.
Stress is the only one on the money here, a casting duo does NOT need both of them to be GM in order to be good, just look at commentators in actual sports, those that come from a high level playing background are almost universally terrible. If you have a color guy that knows what he's doing alongside a PBP guy, that's perfectly fine
edit at the above, the average qb makes way more than $5mm/yr
On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote: Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness. He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level. He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them... I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
Khaldor casts tournaments at like 5AM. He is a mad man lol
I was very surprised with the fact that Tasteless didnt know Zenio left OGS and joined Liquid.
This is a valid concern in the community, and it is good that Cloud brought it up. However, I hope that we can stay rational and focused on this issue and not turn this into caster bashing and witch-hunting. Let's give some positive feedback on how certain casters can improve, rather than call for the sacking of casters that we may not enjoy.
That being said, the caster is very important in the entertainment value and the hype of an event, and we cannot ignore this. With the many tournaments out there today, all competing with one another, having good players and good casters are both ways to rise above the rest of the competition. Naturally, the demand for a few popular casters grows, and their compensation increases likewise. There are market forces at work, and it is not like we can simply say, "pay these casters less", and problem solved. There needs to be changes in market forces.
On May 02 2012 01:07 figq wrote: What about Team owners and League owners? A player envies a caster in front of him, but behind both of them someone makes even more money with even less game effort. (if we judge everything by game effort - maybe we shouldn't)
Team Owners and League Owners DO NOT make that much money AT ALL.
Please don't talk out of your ass.
Almost every team out there is in the red for the owners.
i personally have no respect for casters that play at a low level like at diamond. it's really easy to get decent at this game. i just don't understand how someone could make a living off of talking about starcraft but not actually be good at starcraft. casting is not just about great enunciation and excitement but about knowledge. this applies even for play by play people.
i also feel progamers work a lot harder than casters for less. i don't know how hard or time consuming casting is but im sure it is difficult. but part of casting is improving your knowledge of what you're casting.
but some people are popular because they "bring energy to a cast" or something like that. i personally don't care for casting like this but i can understand why those that watch starcraft for entertainment rather than learning latch onto these personalities. and it's not bad that stuff like this is happening, if people like these casters, then so be it. it's just not my personal vision of how a starcraft cast should go.
Casters and top players bring viewers. Low tier so called "pros" doesn't. If cloud wants to make more money he should focus on his play instead of shitting on casters.
Casters do a lot more promotion work than just the VOD's etc. Day[9] and TB are on twitter a lot. (Tasteosis plug the shit out of it) They engage more, so they get more. If these players are not happy with the distribution, maybe they should be giving more back to the community other than just playing. Does Cloud play games with his stream followers? I know Day[9] does with his subscribers, and Husky does with his. Even simpe interaction like this helps your fan base and reputation.
Atm there are more quality players than quality casters, so casters will be in higher demand as they are more difficult to replace. Simple mathmatics. Players can take it upon themselves to increase their visibility and value in the eyes of fans / tournaments / sponsors through various things. Most of them don't however.
TLDR. A lot of the top casters interact with their own fan base a lot more than most pro players do, and because there are less of them they are more in demand for the positions, given more weight because then they bring that fan base with them
Well, the whole thing is simple supply and demand. There are simply more players than casters and currently, casters are more in demand, and hence can demand higher pay.
The demand is coming from the community itself. How many times have I heard people complaining the casters suck and saying that it ruins the event for them, in total disregard on the quality of players.
i.e. Community demands casters > players, if you want change, the community needs to change.
On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.
I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.
This pretty much sums up my sentiment exactly. I don't think that casters should be making more money because I feel like players work more, put more hours in, and dedicate themselves more to the game than them (well, at least some do.) But I also know that casters won't be going away anytime soon because their free-time works to their advantage. I think most casters, through their open nature, act more like ambassadors to the industry and eSports in general more than players do. I don't think that SC2 would have grown as popular and, in some ways, profitable as it is now if people like TB, Day9, and Husky didn't exist.
The casters that make money and travel all over do a great job and are a large reason that SC2 is an esport. They invest money into the scene, most of them play the game pretty heavily, they work outside of the time they're on camera to organize tournaments, sponsors, and improve their own skills.
Really I think the mediocre 'pro' players that are making a living are the ones that need to be called out. (Not that ClouD is in that category, I really don't know much about him)
Cloud is so correct on alot of points. Have you guys ever heard Tastless cast a proper ZvZ ever? He is CLUELESS about the race and he doesnt bother to gain any proper knowledge and he is one of the people living out of this. Day9 is also a man who deserves some criticism sits down explaining the most captain obvious things as most of the other MLG casters aswell. Djwheat, JP etc..same thing there, overhyped people and that im like pretty sure got a pretty fat salary.
I understand players that are pissed off about these kind of things. They get less attention and less money for more work and definitley more knowledge about the actual game.
Ive always disliked Khaldors casting but the man actually sits down and tries to learn every single thing about every single race and thats a thing I love about him. Even tho I cant stand his accent. He actually knows what he is talking about ,it sounds wierd with german/english accent but still.. Many other "mediocre" casters doesnt do that which upsets people.
People should be more critical of poor casting, unfortunately unlike the past where criticism was widely accepted / debated on TL you will now be flamed/downvoted to fuck if you bring up issues with casting OR the bandwagon will roll on behind you and you'll get a post from said caster saying "SORRY IM TRYING SO HARD OMG GIVE ME MORE CHANCES" which is always amusing.
I'm glad cloud brought this up again, not a baseless whine about money but a spark for debate about what we should expect from casters.
Interesting he doesn't find Apollo or Day 9's analysis insightful. Seems like the only 'analytical' casters he likes are Artosis and Bitterdam.
I agree with most points he makes though, as I believe lots of casters are pretty lazy with their time spent learning how the game works and what the metagame is. When was the last time you saw a IPL caster say something like 'this Zerg strategy has started appearing on the ladder recently, in response to the hellion/banshee triple orbital build.' Only Artosis and a few others gives this kind of insight. However, I think the problem isn't that the casters are too popular, its the players deserve more recognition.
Well at least he thinks (as we all do, right?) that Artosis is the best caster.
I agree that Day9 over-analyzes random plays way too much. I'm sure he would present HuK's 9 gate +1 PvZ as genius and formidable, but the fact is, you most likely can produce the same results with 8 gates and better mechanics, and HuK is doing that by instinct, it's not like he computed that 9 gates are optimal for massing out zealots and stalkers and microing them around, yet Day9 will be able to spend 2 hours praising some random nonsensical elements of the build from like 4 different replays. In his casts he has less time for this, but it still comes out at times, and it may cover for an overall weak sense of what's really happening in a high level SC2 game... I otherwise agree that Day9's fame is well deserved. He did a lot of good to SC2 and still does, and I still think he mostly knows what he's talking about.
Also, I was like "wtf he didn't mention BitterdaM?" and then he said that he forgot them as good casters. Tastosis (well, mostly Artosis + anyone does the trick really) and BitterdaM are without contest the 2 best casting combos, ClouD said it well.
About the "casters get more than players even though it's undeserved", I don't really know. I still think popular and acclaimed casting figures are necessary for the game to develop as an esport and in an effort to become more mainstream, but it's certain that some players are underrated because they don't get invited in tournaments as much as others and making it into qualifiers is very hard as we all know. The only thing I know is that I would give Artosis a raise (:D).
Edit: And agreed on Grubby being an awesome caster, without being a personal fan of his.
On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
Especially the point he makes that some casters don't seem to actively improve their knowldege of the game. I totally agree with Cloud pointing out the over-analyzation of certain plays in SC2.
For instance, when Day[9] first came out with his audio-only podcast series back in BW (I think 2009?), and then the subsequent Daily that would come to define him, you could tell that he was still playing BW at a really high level. I really enjoyed the high level analysis and I ate that content up like crazy. When the Daily switched to SC2 along with myself, I slowly noticed the show becoming catered to newbies. While I have no problem with that personally I do believe it isn't conducive to the improvement of his casting. Mainly, I think he gets the casting jobs due to his notority. And as such, my interest in Day[9]'s show and his commentating has diminished since. But once again, this is just me and my preferences.
I'm definitely not saying Day[9] lost the passion, but maybe Cloud has a point that these guys could be doing more for the crazy amount of money they can make casting. I know I would certainly enjoy it.
Casters might be paid more than most players, but they are the ones keeping us entertained for hours during an event. At the end of the day, that's what matters and that's where the value is.
Players (for the most part) play to win and not to entertain, but the value is in entertainment and no necessarily winning. They put in a lot of time and effort, but I find most don't take it seriously. A quick example: NaNiwa puts in a lot of hard work, but still probe rushed because his match "Didn't Matter".
Wow, this is a bold move. As staded before, if cloud wants more reputation/money he should be practicing instead of ranting about other people.
People that work their asses off and deliver results, Huk, Thorzain, Stephano (not even talking about koreans) and so on get the reputation/money that they deserve, but cloud is just some low tier pro who i dont remember seeing go far at any major tournament this year (correct me if im wrong)
Edit: and i dont even wanna start on the fact how many people those popular casters brought to the game...
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game. Their career is not affected by win or loss.
That is so far from the truth that I don't even know where to start... You do realize most of the "famous" or "known" casters are in the position that they are in because of how passionate / dedicated they were for many years and weren't making a dime during those times. Now it's actually getting big enough for their previous years of dedication to pay off.
Tastless, Artosis, DJwheat, Day9, iNcontroL etc etc were all amazingly dedicated to furthering the gaming community and didn't get shit for it for the longest time. They all made sacrifices for their dedication whether it was working less, going out less or spending their own money back then. So now that its paying off you are just going to act like that dedication never happened?
On May 02 2012 01:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.
[...]
I'm definitely not saying Day[9] lost the passion, but maybe Cloud has a point that these guys could be doing more for the crazy amount of money they can make casting. I know I would certainly enjoy it.
I'd rather say that Day has changed his focus =P He started out as a mid to high strategies and stuff guy, now it's more a general low to mid tier stuff. I've lost interest for a while now but hey, I respect what he does all the same =)
DayJ got enough money by now I'm sure that he can cut down on a daily a week. I think it will do him good too since the topics have all been done before. I still watch funday monday but even that's repeats now =/
i agree with what jinro said earlier in that it's not an ideal situation but it makes financial sense at the moment.
the sad part is most casters are pretty awful. there have been so many times during nasl, mlg, ipl, and gsl broadcasts where the casters are trying to make jokes and i'm just sitting there cringing. there are very very few casters who are actually funny enough to pull of making jokes all the time.... but regardless is that the ideal casting skill? every time i've tried to introduce i friend to sc2 their first reaction is about how unbelievably fucking nerdy/awkward/unfunny the commentators are. maybe i am just too old for the intended audience of such lame jokes but i suspect that people who appreciate lame puns and arbitrarily made up stories/jokes are the people not old enough to have an income with which they can support the sc2 scene. this would also explain why the majority of fans refuse to pay for content... they probably are just too young to have any money. i realize this is a subjective issue but i dont think my sense of humor is too far removed from mainstream.
artosis if u read this: you are maybe my favorite caster and i think you're very funny when you're on talk shows like sotg game and allowed to act closer to your true self.... but for the love of fuck can you stop calling your audience nerds? that shit is so annoying.... i wish there could be some kind of poll that could show what percentage of teamliquid is comfortable with identifying as a nerd. I dont judge anyone for being a nerd as i myself am nerdy about several things.... but people will always get upset when you throw them under a label that they dont wish to identify with. and for christ's sake stop indulging tasteless when he goes extremely off topic. when that happens i become so disinterested in the broadcast and will often turn it off and find something more entertaining.
a few days ago in the SOTG thread (yeah, i probably shouldn't give that thread any attention at all) tyler got raped by a bunch of people for saying that he preferred the mlg spring area over dreamhack because the quality of games were better. when people lashed out against him, it finally convinced me that the average fan (going off of active community members only) doesnt really give a shit about the game, they just want to be fed memes, rumors, drama, controversy, and all that other reddit shit. when i watch sc2 it's because i want to see amazing games and the continual refinements and new strategies that are being introduced. i could care less about which pokemon a caster most identifies with or whether or not somebody should be punished for "offensive" language. this paragraph has been a little off topic, but i think the "casters being paid more than players" problem is caused by what i just talked about.
i wish i could have taken myself and my opinions less seriously when writing this but goddamn all this shit is so annoying.
seems you've never heard Grubby cast. he's a freaking god of the microphone, not unlike others. the only casters i respect and really enjoy listening/watching are Day[9] and Tastosis. they are/were pretty good players too and i guess that matters a lot.
So he dislikes casters for their lack of analysis, then dislikes day9 for over-analyzing? But then is okay with casters like Totalbiscuit because he is passionate, even he isn't great with analysis? So why dislike day9 at all if day9 can at least be equal to TB in passion and dedication, yet way higher in analysis? Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on TB, I think he's cool too, but I think Cloud is just voicing idiosyncratic annoyances at a caster like Day9.
I mean, the main issue that casting's job is inherently intertwined with publicity and community efforts, while players often aren't active enough in putting themselves out there for the community (often due to no fault of their own, since their time is mostly spent dedicating themselves to training), so it's more an issue of team managers putting their players out there with better publicity an whatnot.
Also, why is he hating on TLO? TLO has better TLPD than ClouD, has recent tournament and showmatch wins (Heat charity invite, Kas showmatch), and has beaten a number of koreans recently (Real, Annyeong, MarineKing, ALive, Rain, Gumiho), along with wins over some good non-koreans too (Kas, Mana). And I don't recall ClouD having any notable recent accomplishments... I mean, it's not like I'll hate Cloud for bashing on my favorite player, but it does reaffirm the idea that Cloud is a player that complains a lot...
On May 02 2012 01:56 HyunA wrote: seems you've never heard Grubby cast. he's a freaking god of the microphone, not unlike others. the only casters i respect and really enjoy listening/watching are Day[9] and Tastosis. they are/were pretty good players too and i guess that matters a lot.
On May 02 2012 01:46 Micket wrote: Interesting he doesn't find Apollo or Day 9's analysis insightful. Seems like the only 'analytical' casters he likes are Artosis and Bitterdam.
He said Apollo is an oky caster but not as good as bitterdam or Artosis, and when was the last time day9 analized a game in a cast at the level Artosis or even bitterdam does it ? Most of the time day9 avoids or does not know the things that are "obvious" for a well trained eye but uninteresting for a low level player and focuses on small things which he makes out to be " the huge difference between pro and noob" so that the new players will think they watch a good play for the "wrong" reasons, also he always adds bullshit like "this game is very close ", " the player which will micro this last battle better will win" , " this is a very interesting strategy" when a really black and white situation is happening on the screen, prime example for me still being the Jinro vs Choya game at MLG... w.e it was, where he was hyping up the importance of Jinro with his 200/200 mm nuking choyas 160 good toss army that he could not reenforce since all this mining and production was down.
On May 02 2012 01:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: So he dislikes casters for their lack of analysis, then dislikes day9 for over-analyzing? But then is okay with casters like Totalbiscuit because he is passionate, even he isn't great with analysis? So why dislike day9 at all if day9 can at least be equal to TB in passion and dedication, yet way higher in analysis? Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on TB, I think he's cool too, but I think Cloud is just voicing idiosyncratic annoyances at a caster like Day9. .
He said TB is a good play by play caster, and indeed he is way better at "casting" than most casters since he actually went to an college which thought him to do that ( if im not mistaking ).
I dont even listen to casters most of the time. Even on a occasion when day9 is casting i just mute the stream and watch it while listing to some music.I think im in a minority here but really pref to watch replays or watch games w/out commentary.Seems kinda weird thing to say.
Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
Cloud is right in a way, but he also has to realize that 99% of the people watching are not at the pro level. The reason day9 and totalbiscuit and all those others casters are so popular is because they are very good at explaining the game at a low level. Not everyone wants to hear hardcore analysis of the game, because for one they won't understand what it means, and for another its a lot more fun to just listen to somebody with a good casting voice. If all that was important was pro-level game knowledge then any pro without personality could be a caster.
i dont think JP being a bad caster is JPs fault though ;p hes just a gamer kind of guy with i dont know what job title at mlg. he does a good job with sotg and spends his free time playing a lot of games. then put in front of a camera and expected to be as good as a full time caster is kinda bullshit for him. if mlg expect to use him as a main caster maybe they should tell him that.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no no and once again no cloud is awesome for talking about problems in e-sports and as darkforce said, not everyone is doing that!
I think that current "famous" casters really should have a better grasp on the game, GSL does a good job, they don't need to be top pros to know what is going on, but tastosis is great (if they don't know enough, who does? tasteless knows all). I think the solution to this problem is for better gamers to start community casting and get noticed. I really don't like many of the MLG people the rob guy knows roughly the same as my bronze league friends haha... But everyone! listen, we all are disappointed in the knowledge of the casters and the same stupid facts the give about match ups we have seen and heard for ever- SOMONE go do a better job on their stream, and if you don't want to do this give other streams a chance. I am a high diamond toss and since summer is starting so I'm planning on commentating my play, who knows it might be good, but give others a chance. I like how mlg has grubby now , I think with tastosis they were the best casters and its true you really can tell he knows the game well. No offence to some of the other MLG casters but I really don't think they would be missed if they started experimenting with more (knowledgeable) casters- however, knowledge doesn't mean they can communicate well, I didn't really find QXC that great at the last mlg because he was kinda critical and seemed not to get his point across
-So if you have a problem with casters, support other ones, or start doing it yourself!!!
I see a lot of "personally" "in my opinion" and "I think" in this thread, which is baaad. How can we claim to know the motivations of a person who we haven't even met yet? Yeah sure many myself included do have biases for and against certain casters, but to judge them without even knowing them apart from their public persona is just wrong.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no no and once again no cloud is awesome for talking about problems in e-sports and as darkforce said, not everyone is doing that!
maybe so but at the same time, cloud has put 0 effort in to marketing himself and is complaining about people who do market themselves.
this isnt a problem with esports, its a fact of business. you think the richest teams in the world are always the best? hardly. most of the time they are all about marketing themselves, and people like cloud sit on their chairs complaining about it as if its ever gonna change.
if he wants to get paid more he needs to be worth more. when was he last on sotg? or kings of tin? where are his interviews during events? why does he post his thoughts on some other site and then not bother to cross post to TL, leaving it to some fan to draw in new viewers.
he isnt even trying to make more money for himself but he wants to complain about people who do.
people like to bitch at incontrol about spending too much time on shows and shit, but the fact is that incontrol probably puts in more hours into a "career" than cloud does, and gets paid more accordingly. cloud may or may not spend more time on SC than incontrol but the total time invested is much higher by EG players.
On May 02 2012 02:12 leperphilliac wrote: I see a lot of "personally" "in my opinion" and "I think" in this thread, which is baaad. How can we claim to know the motivations of a person who we haven't even met yet? Yeah sure many myself included do have biases for and against certain casters, but to judge them without even knowing them apart from their public persona is just wrong.
you would prefer we say "i know this other person thinks this" ?
While I don't usually like complaining, I like his honesty and I think that its valuable to the community to have players speak their mind.
I also must agree that at times I am simply baffled by the lack of understanding of casters. It doesn't make me turn off the cast or anything, but it just annoys me in that I find it so confusing as to why they do not know more. I just cannot understand how you can watch hours of games a week and [maybe?] play the game and still be ignorant. As I listen to the casts, sometimes I just sit there and get so distracted by the questions going through my head on how could someone possibly learn so little? How could someone specialized in such a specific field have so little actual specialization in it?
I've always been more of a viewer than a player, and within the last year my games played is very low, and during a long period I didn't even watch any SC2. But yet somehow I am able to have a better understanding than people whose jobs are solely devoted to commentating on this game for 2 years? I wonder how can this be. Do they specifically try to remain ignorant? Do they dumb down their casts purposely? I'm sure that they must have a brain that is perfectly fine and their learning ability should be just fine, so why? Why are they not knowledgeable? This is my biggest annoyance in watching casts, being frustrated with questions of how could they not know more.
--
Another part of all this I think lies with teams not promoting their players well enough. If you notice EG and Liquid games, you'll see they always get a lot higher viewership. People really seem to care about those players. Is it because they're specifically that much better than everyone else? Not really. It's because we actually are able to feel like we know them and we start to care about how they do. When you look at a lot of other teams out there, most people really have no idea about those players aside from a few tidbits on their race and style. There's no narrative to lots of these other teams, no reason for anyone to care about whether they win.
I think tournaments, casters, team managers, and players all need to work toward creating a feeling of a more personal connection for fans with their players.
I agree with a lot of what ClouD said, even if it isn't a really big issue imo. He doesn't and will never be able to understand the perspective of the casual gamer, who makes up the very large majority.. They don't give a shit about a very in-depth insight, and will enjoy casting as long as people are feigning excitement and making up any theories about what is going on. When I went to MLG Raleigh last year and sat in the crowd, I was amazed at how many people were really ignorant about high level strategy and were claiming to know exactly why one player did a certain thing. Then I ask what league they're in and they say gold...
Overall it seems like there are 3 distinctive types of casters. Those who are really insightful and passionate (artosis, tasteless, apollo, bitterdam, etc), those who are passionate and try hard but aren't really knowledgeable (catspajamas), and then people who don't give a shit and just do it for publicity/money (painuser/orb).
Luckily I think most people who don't give a shit about casting professionally don't get paid too much, which like ClouD said would be really bad.
That video was pretty silly. Obviously players will have better analysis, kind of goes without saying. Furthermore I think he dramatically overestimates how much money casters make, most of them have means of making money that they rely on over casting major tournaments. djWHEAT with TwitchTV, Day9 with the Day9 Daily, and so on. The casters really making major amounts of money from strictly casting games are really the ones sitting on YouTube with 50k-500k loyal subscribers, and the fact is those people could probably put up videos of themselves brushing their teeth or showering while singing Hanson and get just about as many views.
Overall it seems like there are 3 distinctive types of casters. Those who are really insightful and passionate (artosis, tasteless, apollo, bitterdam, etc), those who are passionate and try hard but aren't really knowledgeable (catspajamas), and then people who don't give a shit and just do it for publicity/money (painuser/orb).
Pretty sure the people you list as doing casting for the money/publicity would make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds....
Tasteless is the only one that i dont think should be in the position he is. Think it was on the 2GD show where 2GD was talking to Incontrol about how Tasteless doesnt know much about the game. Incontrol said something like its Tasteless role is to ask Artosis questions. So lets put it into perspective. Tasteless gets sent around the world, earns enough money to sustain himself in another country, just to ask Artosis questions on stream. Dont get me wrong, TB is similar by not knowing much about the game and sometimes says stupid things, but atleast he does tons loads for the players and the community.
I think that arguing that a caster’s job is just to analyze/commentate the game is a bit shortsighted. Maybe in BW that was the case because were the game was at and its possibilities of growth, but in SC2 a caster is also in charge of communicating an image that is good for attracting new/casual viewers and securing sponsors. I believe that many casters succeed because they are able to communicate such an image and that is something that should be rewarded. Maybe it is currently overestimated but that it is also hard to argue if you agree that the main goal of SC2 is to become mainstream.
If you're complaining about mid-low tier pro players compared to the dozen 'well known casters', well thats kind of a silly comparison when there's just as many players if not more making a comfortable living out of playing professionally with their salaries/prizes and so on. Especially when you consider the casters who are trying to make a name for themselves with their youtube casts.
On May 02 2012 02:36 Littlemuff wrote: Tasteless is the only one that i dont think should be in the position he is. Think it was on the 2GD show where 2GD was talking to Incontrol about how Tasteless doesnt know much about the game. Incontrol said something like its Tasteless role is to ask Artosis questions. So lets put it into perspective. Tasteless gets sent around the world, earns enough money to sustain himself in another country, just to ask Artosis questions on stream. Dont get me wrong, TB is similar by not knowing much about the game and sometimes says stupid things, but atleast he does tons loads for the players and the community.
To be fair though, most of the time he only does that because he realises Artosis knows more about the game than him. He seems to cast in a fairly different style with other casters, a rare occurrence in itself so it's hard to show.
On May 02 2012 02:27 Befree wrote: While I don't usually like complaining, I like his honesty and I think that its valuable to the community to have players speak their mind.
I also must agree that at times I am simply baffled by the lack of understanding of casters. It doesn't make me turn off the cast or anything, but it just annoys me in that I find it so confusing as to why they do not know more.
I have been muting most streams for a year or so now. It is really depressing how bad most casters are. Apollo is the only good or even remotely decent as a caster outside of the GSL. GSL Code A and GSTL is the few streams I dont mute the casters on now days, as tasteless is so depressingly bad. At least watching Wolf and Apollo in the last Dreamhack was a little bit of fresh air. Two commentators who are actually decent casting together, a rare sight in pro SC2 unfortunately.
Watching Khaldor and Artosis cast the Code S matches was the best cast I have heard in ages. I wish most casters stepped up their game and had more than platinum level of understanding. And no, being a play-by-play commentator is not an excuse for lack of knowledge or insight into the game.
On May 02 2012 02:31 LeafBlower wrote: Overall it seems like there are 3 distinctive types of casters. Those who are really insightful and passionate (artosis, tasteless, apollo, bitterdam, etc)
Oh wow. Dont make me laugh. Have you heard his cast the last 4 months? Maybe back in Open season 1-3 he was decent. Now he is utterly terrible and it is clear that he have no insight about the game, at all. I cant say I am afraid that he will steal my ladder points anymore to say it that way.
Pretty sure the people you list as doing casting for the money/publicity would make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds....
I agree, but it seems as if their intentions are to make a quick and easy buck off of it. If that is the case they shouldn't be hired for any type of casting work. It kind of insults the people like khaldor who actually spend up to 8 hours a day learning the game, doing stuff to promote themselves, and consider it a "real job". Although i could be completely wrong about painuser, he could just be asked to do these small one time casting events and say "why not?". However, large companies should really consider using different people as he is a horrible caster imo. He basically just laughs all the time at stupid things and makes really bad jokes while primarily doing a play by play summary of what's going on.
I don't see why people think what ClouD did there was "courageous". Ranting about people without giving them the opportunity to defend themselves directly is actually rather coward. You shouldn't underestimated his influence on viewers. If he thinks some casters suck and must talk about it in public, he should do it in a discussion group or sth similar but definitely not this way.
i 100% percent agree with cloud on this subject and also cloud says it the way it is so respect to him for that, heres what i think in order of preference
THE GOOD CASTERS Grubby Rotterdam Artosis Dapollo Wolf Incontrol khaldor Total biscuit
THE "I WILL TOLERATE YOU CASTERS" CASTERS DJWheat day9 MRBitter Gretorb
THE BAD CASTERS tasteless ( im sorry) DOA Painuser CatsPajamas that guy with gretorb HD ORB EDIT:forgot to put JP at the botom of the list,well i guess he beats rob simpson
THE OMG WTF GET OUT OF ESPORTS CASTERS ROB SIMPSON ROB SIMPSON ROB SIMPSON
Casting requires something too and, as we've seen, that's not something Cloud has. I remember at HSC where he casted with Thorzain and someone else, his attitude was some of the worst I have ever seen.
But apart from that, I do see his point. I just don't think you can do anything about it.
Yes, most non-Korean casters are nowhere as good as Korean casters.
But most non-Korean players (Cloud is among them) are nowhere as good as Korean players. So it's easy to turn his argument against him. There are so many Korean B-teamers that are better than Cloud, yet they don't have as much money and fame. How is that fair?
People he bashes on are among those who work the hardest and produce the most of SC2 content. Day9 "overanalyzes"? Ok... that's a *totally* objective reason to say he is a bad caster. Wait, that's actually really subjective! If you don't like daylies -- well who the fuck cares, Cloud is not even talking about dailies. And when Day9 casts a tournament, he is usually paired with another caster, usually someone like Husky or djWheat, which balances Day9's tendency to overanalyze (and really, Day9 has really different styles of casting in dailies and in tournaments)
Cloud thinks HD and Painuser are bad casters. Well, I actually don't like them either! But they have a full-time job at IGN, and it's up to IGN to decide how much money do they deserve. Cloud is contracted by another eSports organisation, and it's between him and his clan to decide what Cloud should receive as a salary.
If Cloud wants to get some caster fame and money, why wouldn't he stream with commentary? Progamers who stream and interact with viewers tend to get a lot of viewers.
That video was pretty silly. Obviously players will have better analysis, kind of goes without saying. Furthermore I think he dramatically overestimates how much money casters make, most of them have means of making money that they rely on over casting major tournaments. djWHEAT with TwitchTV, Day9 with the Day9 Daily, and so on. The casters really making major amounts of money from strictly casting games are really the ones sitting on YouTube with 50k-500k loyal subscribers, and the fact is those people could probably put up videos of themselves brushing their teeth or showering while singing Hanson and get just about as many views.
Overall it seems like there are 3 distinctive types of casters. Those who are really insightful and passionate (artosis, tasteless, apollo, bitterdam, etc), those who are passionate and try hard but aren't really knowledgeable (catspajamas), and then people who don't give a shit and just do it for publicity/money (painuser/orb).
Pretty sure the people you list as doing casting for the money/publicity would make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds....
PainUser who works full time for IPL would make more money at McDonalds? Are you serious?
One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting. We're not in the beta, we are pretty much 2 years after release. I'm paying for nearly every major tournament now. It is no longer acceptable to have casters at these events, who I'm paying to watch, not know what the fuck they are talking about.
On May 02 2012 00:52 aristarchus wrote: It's basic economics - casters matter a lot to a tournament, and there are actually only a very small number who are very good. That means you have to pay them a lot to get them at your tournament. But the second tier of casters is improving a lot. Wolf is very good. Husky has gotten a *lot* better. Orb and Adebisi casting ESV is extremely good. dApollo is very good. Even some of the less good people for my taste (TotalBiscuit, for example) have gotten a lot better. We're getting to the point where if one of the top casters is asking an insane price, tournaments should feel more comfortable going to the next tier of casters without it destroying their tournament. That will only become more true with time. And as that becomes true, caster pay will stop going up and players will catch up. You can already see some of the worse casters starting to disappear. JP used to cast main MLG tournaments - now he hosts and maybe casts the qualifiers and so forth. Gretorp is now only casting NASL half the time. IPL uses CatsPajamas and DoA for their nightly shows, rather than HD and PainUser, who I think are clearly worse.
I also wouldn't be surprised if before too long one or two players retire and become very good casters. And then eventually we'll get to the point where the only way into a good casting job is to be a pro for a while first, at which point no one will have anything to complain about.
aristarchus here seems to be one of the few that gets it.
How good or bad a caster is (knowledge of the game, voice quality, ect) has less effect on his pay than his popularity or his "brand" and yes, those things should affect his popularity, but at this point they do not.
Players and casters don't just magically or through some formula get paid what they are "worth." It's simple economics. The money comes from the specific tournament which gets it's money from sponsors, advertising, tickets, and other services. The tournaments have to pay (mostly money, but prestige of the tournament and other things can be "pay") out to whatever player and caster as little as they can and still get "the best" of each and still profit (the real reason behind the tournament in the first place). This will get them the most viewers and hence, the most money.
The situation for the players and casters is the exact same with regard to what they do. The more skill they have (through practice, time, and natural ability) the more popular they will become. That equals demand for them, which raises the cost to the tournament to get that player or caster there. The good ones will become in more demand and the crappy ones will fall by the way side.
On May 01 2012 23:58 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote: husky is the best example for that, he doesn t know anything but get s so much attention and so on.... sad, i agree with cloud
The only way I could follow starcraft 2, when it was in the beta stage, was to watch Husky and HD commentate games on their youtube accounts. Since I could not play the game myself. I didn't know that TL.net existed, or any other stream websites for that matter.
On topic ; The big events/tournaments like GSL, IPL, MLG, NASL etc. all got commentators that are good at what they do, and is liked by most. Smaller tournaments might not have commentators that are as popular or good, but if it is because you think that some of them lack knowledge about the game, or you find dry, you will almost always, be able to find another tournament running, to watch instead.
commentators only get popular if people like them. Those are the faces that you see, since most of e-sports happens behind a screen.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level.
I remember Cloud casting in the HSC, the only thing he did was complaining and pointing out all the negative things, that was ALL he did - and now this..? unlike himself the casters he is talking about is actually promoting his own sport. I do not understand how he can talk shit about them.
That video was pretty silly. Obviously players will have better analysis, kind of goes without saying. Furthermore I think he dramatically overestimates how much money casters make, most of them have means of making money that they rely on over casting major tournaments. djWHEAT with TwitchTV, Day9 with the Day9 Daily, and so on. The casters really making major amounts of money from strictly casting games are really the ones sitting on YouTube with 50k-500k loyal subscribers, and the fact is those people could probably put up videos of themselves brushing their teeth or showering while singing Hanson and get just about as many views.
Overall it seems like there are 3 distinctive types of casters. Those who are really insightful and passionate (artosis, tasteless, apollo, bitterdam, etc), those who are passionate and try hard but aren't really knowledgeable (catspajamas), and then people who don't give a shit and just do it for publicity/money (painuser/orb).
Pretty sure the people you list as doing casting for the money/publicity would make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds....
PainUser who works full time for IPL would make more money at McDonalds? Are you serious?
One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting. We're not in the beta, we are pretty much 2 years after release. I'm paying for nearly every major tournament now. It is no longer acceptable to have casters at these events, who I'm paying to watch, not know what the fuck they are talking about.
Pretty sure IPL's only full time casters are DoA and Kevin Knocke, and I can't speak for DoA but I know Kevin's responsibilities go far beyond casting.
On May 02 2012 02:36 Littlemuff wrote: Tasteless is the only one that i dont think should be in the position he is. Think it was on the 2GD show where 2GD was talking to Incontrol about how Tasteless doesnt know much about the game. Incontrol said something like its Tasteless role is to ask Artosis questions. So lets put it into perspective. Tasteless gets sent around the world, earns enough money to sustain himself in another country, just to ask Artosis questions on stream. Dont get me wrong, TB is similar by not knowing much about the game and sometimes says stupid things, but atleast he does tons loads for the players and the community.
To be fair though, most of the time he only does that because he realises Artosis knows more about the game than him. He seems to cast in a fairly different style with other casters, a rare occurrence in itself so it's hard to show.
So why not get another great caster to bounce ideas of? Someone like Apollo who makes a huge effort every cast, takes notes and still keeps the games entertaning? I just feel like Tasteless has got it way too easy.
That video was pretty silly. Obviously players will have better analysis, kind of goes without saying. Furthermore I think he dramatically overestimates how much money casters make, most of them have means of making money that they rely on over casting major tournaments. djWHEAT with TwitchTV, Day9 with the Day9 Daily, and so on. The casters really making major amounts of money from strictly casting games are really the ones sitting on YouTube with 50k-500k loyal subscribers, and the fact is those people could probably put up videos of themselves brushing their teeth or showering while singing Hanson and get just about as many views.
Overall it seems like there are 3 distinctive types of casters. Those who are really insightful and passionate (artosis, tasteless, apollo, bitterdam, etc), those who are passionate and try hard but aren't really knowledgeable (catspajamas), and then people who don't give a shit and just do it for publicity/money (painuser/orb).
Pretty sure the people you list as doing casting for the money/publicity would make more money flipping burgers at McDonalds....
PainUser who works full time for IPL would make more money at McDonalds? Are you serious?
One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting. We're not in the beta, we are pretty much 2 years after release. I'm paying for nearly every major tournament now. It is no longer acceptable to have casters at these events, who I'm paying to watch, not know what the fuck they are talking about.
Pretty sure IPL's only full time casters are DoA and Kevin Knocke, and I can't speak for DoA but I know Kevin's responsibilities go far beyond casting.
Ah, I wasn't too sure when I said it, he used to be anyway.
On May 02 2012 02:59 Jono7272 wrote: One thing to note is; on an MLG/IPL/major tournament weekend the casters make more money than most, if not all, of the players. This just seems ludicrous to me when look at the quality of some of the casting.
This might be true only for a few casters in the world. I don't think most casters besides Day9/Tastosis would be getting such a big salary.
Besides, players are supported by their teams with monthly salary, casters don't have that. Should MLG/IPL/NASL provide a salary to Cloud? Of course no. Leagues have obligations to their casters, and to the winner.
The problem is, where are the good casters that might replace those you don't like? It's not easy to become a popular caster, and last time I looked at "up and coming casters" I didn't like any of them anyway.
There is a reason why we have a few overhyped casters. Just like we have a few overhyped players *cough*Idra*couch*Huk*couch*
What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Being a caster is a full-time gig, but I see lots of guys who don't do their homework and they stagnate.
Cloud hit a lot of good points, but I don't agree on his criteria for passion because their are many angles to it.
However, I would say some casters have definitely lost their touch for me at least which is very uninspiring.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
You just sound bitter and fighting fire with fire. Strawmans, psh.
You know very well how long he's been in the Starcraft scene and his accolades Diamond. He's a smart chap who speaks his mind and he's always been this way. I wouldn't say he's only looking out for himself, but everyone else who plays the game.
totally agree 100%. idk why the fuck is everyone thinking cloud is jealous of the casters. I think hes bothered by the fact that players work so hard to get to where they are and get payed so little. Yet most casters who are fortunate enough to be given a large salary and fame don't even give enough fuck a to even learn about the game. i think theres a difference between being jealous and frustration due to being under appreciated.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
Ding ding. For ClouD of all people to be doing this is hilarious. He is the definition of a generic foreigner who is capable of showing good games but doesn't have any noteworthy results and can't go toe to toe with Koreans. If we went purely off of merit and not marketability (even ClouD has some marketability from his personality and status as a foreigner), he would be out on his ass in no-time for some Korean B-teamer who we have probably never heard of.
It's fine the way it is. Very few people want to see all of their "foreigner" teams inundated with faceless Korean players, because they can relate to and identify with foreigners. Just like people want to see popular casters, even if they might not have the best game knowledge. Likability and marketability are just as big a virtue in a caster as hard work and game knowledge.
Plus, if foreign progamers were all working as hard as he says they are, they would be able to actually compete in these tournaments, instead of falling over whenever Koreans touch down at the airport.
No doubt that the better you are at playing the game, the less you will be excited about the predominant casters, because they lack the analytical skill to make games interesting for experienced players. This is not a pure problem of e-sports, this is a problem of sports commentary in general. If you're a good soccer player you'll most certainly feel embarrased when listening to the predominant tv commentators. But in other sports, people do hardly care about commentators/casters. They're interested in the aesthetic value of games/matches, they're involved with single athletes, clubs and teams.
I don't see it as a huge problem, that casters are so important for e-sports, it's fair to say that they also deserve a piece of the fame cake, but currently there's such a big disbalance in attention, which is hurting the athletes.
Please people continue to rage and spread hatred, don't ever consider to see all this from a neutral perspective. Just be hateful and ignorant.
On May 02 2012 03:24 CarelessPride wrote: totally agree 100%. idk why the fuck is everyone thinking cloud is jealous of the casters. I think hes bothered by the fact that players work so hard to get to where they are and get payed so little. Yet most casters who are fortunate enough to be given a large salary and fame don't even give enough fuck a to even learn about the game. i think theres a difference between being jealous and frustration due to being under appreciated.
What makes you think the current casters haven't sacrificed anything? The majority of them have invested a huge portion of their time into the game. Tasteless for example dropped out of college with only one semester left (to graduate) in order to cast for gom even if it was for the previous generation of the game.
On May 02 2012 02:36 Littlemuff wrote: Tasteless is the only one that i dont think should be in the position he is. Think it was on the 2GD show where 2GD was talking to Incontrol about how Tasteless doesnt know much about the game. Incontrol said something like its Tasteless role is to ask Artosis questions. So lets put it into perspective. Tasteless gets sent around the world, earns enough money to sustain himself in another country, just to ask Artosis questions on stream. Dont get me wrong, TB is similar by not knowing much about the game and sometimes says stupid things, but atleast he does tons loads for the players and the community.
To be fair though, most of the time he only does that because he realises Artosis knows more about the game than him. He seems to cast in a fairly different style with other casters, a rare occurrence in itself so it's hard to show.
So why not get another great caster to bounce ideas of? Someone like Apollo who makes a huge effort every cast, takes notes and still keeps the games entertaning? I just feel like Tasteless has got it way too easy.
Because while Artosis + another player (like TLO at DH) might make most people who love analysis, myself included die of nerdgasms, Tasteless brings something to the table most people don't when he's paired with Artosis - Chemistry. Some pairings just work better than others and are best not tampered with, which is why imo Tastosis and Bitterdam are easily above the pack at the moment.
No casters: SC2 games can still be played and televised No players: Nothing for popular caster to do but talk about themselves (which many seem to do anyway!) Why we watch: High quality games played by the best PLAYERS, relayed to us by the best CASTERS
Both pieces of the puzzle are the key to sc2 succeeding long term, and why I think in its current state has the best chance to last as an esport over other games. With that said, without players there would be nothing for casters to make money off of anyway. For that reason, I don't see why an investigation couldn't be done on the trends of paying casters by the organizations themselves to figure out what the scale should be. Obviously a high profile caster would be paid more then a mediocre players, but I don't see any circumstance where a caster should be getting paid more then a player at equal level over the course of a year, excluding expenses.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
I aggree with your statement about Cloud - whatever - he's throwing stones in a glass house. But the casting scene is not as competive as the pro scene. New blood has just begun to get introduced (Adibese at MLG for example), but for the most part we still have casters from the beta. This lack of turnover means that there isn't as much of an incentive to improve. Now the sad thing is I think alot of casters are trying to improve, and are trying very hard, but are making minimal advancements in doing so. If your livelyhood is to cast SC2, then you should have more time than the average person to get better at the game. Yet, correct me if I am wrong, we have casters like Doa, Husky, and CatsPajamas who are below diamond league.
I actually like those casters alot, because they have the personality to compensate. That being said their casting could be so much better if they played near high Masters. And where personality is lacking (orb, HD, and Painuser) I'm a little disgruntled that they cannot show tip top knowledge of the game.
If I had to guess you would probably not agree with my dislike of Orb. Thats understandable. Your friends right? Sorry, to insult him, but that highlights another problem that I see with casting scene. Most of the people that work here are friends with each other and it wouldn't be farfetched to think that might be partially how they got their employment. Problem with that is, eSports is a business. A business that's job is to entertain. And for that reason I think that the casting scene should be as competive and cruel as possible.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level.
I think Cloud has sort of a point, but kind of messes it up with a lot of personal (imo mostly stupid if I may say that) opinions he sprinkles into his statement.
I understand he's angry, that a lot of casters out there aren't investing as much time in their job as players do, but get a lot more recognition and money for it. Since he is a decent player I get that this upsets him.
But I feel he forgets that,
a) we are in a growing scene, and in order to make it appealing to more people, casters like Husky, HD or TotalBiscuit, who don't have deep insight in the game, but can pull off the play-by-play part very well, are important, popular, get a lot of attention and thereby a decent amount of money.
b) sadly Cloud, among many other players, is good at the game, but simply not top-notch. Comparing this situation to other sports, it isn't shocking to me, that he doesn't earn as much as commentators or expert. If someone is an expert for, lets say a world championship in football, he surely will be payed more than a player who isn't even part of a team there. (I realize this is a somewhat vague comparison, I hope you get my point tho ^^)
In the end I must say I'm kind of disappointed how Cloud is acting in his VLOG. It's one thing to criticise a situation in an objective way, it's another to do it while insulting other players and casters. Since he wants casters to be more professionel about their jobs, he might want to remember that.
P.S.: Has anyone else noticed Cloud says "I think" pretty much the same way MC does? ^_^
Casters are paid by supply/demand. They may not be good and still get paid a lot but that's because there's low supply on (good) casters. The opposite could be said for Cloud himself - there are a lot of Koreans that can do a better job than him at playing the game, but he still gets paid more. I think it's highly hypocritical and the way he sprinkles his own resentful opinion throughout it just shows that this isn't much more than an angry vlog.
On May 02 2012 00:19 Dexington wrote: Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
Just wanted to quote this because I think every bit of it is spot on.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level.
IMO.
You are certainly more capable of judging a player then me and while I consider his TvT to be very good his other match up aren't quite the same. He never won anything major and I have been taught in my teenage sport (rowing) that until you are the best, you shut up and you work more. The situation was different though because no money was involved; I am annoyed at the fact that he brings money every time he has a problem with the community (last one was with ESWC and that was totally uncalled for as it was 2 weeks after the event)
He is right about the situation, however the way he is doing it is despicable. The topic of the development of our scene deserves more than the rant of a underachieving frustrated player.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level.
IMO.
You are certainly more capable of judging a player then me and while I consider his TvT to be very good his other match up aren't quite the same. He never won anything major and I have been taught in my teenage sport (rowing) that until you are the best, you shut up and you work more. The situation was different though because no money was involved; I am annoyed at the fact that he brings money every time he has a problem with the community (last one was with ESWC and that was totally uncalled for as it was 2 weeks after the event)
What? The prize money debate was absolutely not uncalled for. Mentioning ESWC maybe was, but the post overall was completely necessary.
Simple explanation (little bit too simple but it'll suffice for non-economists):
Supply and Demand: Supply of players is very high, demand for players is high but small relative to supply. Supply of sufficiently qualified casters for these events is small, demand is high and is high relative to supply. Ask Day9 about how many job offers to cast events he gets.
So as long as the demand for their time is high, casters can get away with murder.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
I actually think ClouD is a mechanically and strategically (at least in terms of preparation) very good player, he just has issues with performing to his level.
IMO.
You are certainly more capable of judging a player then me and while I consider his TvT to be very good his other match up aren't quite the same. He never won anything major and I have been taught in my teenage sport (rowing) that until you are the best, you shut up and you work more. The situation was different though because no money was involved; I am annoyed at the fact that he brings money every time he has a problem with the community (last one was with ESWC and that was totally uncalled for as it was 2 weeks after the event)
What? The prize money debate was absolutely not uncalled for. Mentioning ESWC maybe was, but the post overall was completely necessary.
EDIT : Sorry I just realized what you are talking about.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
As a high master what annoys me the most is casters faking knowledge. Saying random bullshit that 98% of the viewers won't even notice, but makes me grind. And they are a lot of these guys, sadly most of the casters are failed gamers, seeing that they wouldn't succeed as a pro gamer they went for casting. But they are still awful.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
If he was a NA player he would be the best NA terran though.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
Lol, are you so annoyed that he mentioned Orb? You only have to watch Cloud when he is on form to know he is a good player.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
If he was a NA player he would be the best NA terran though.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
Beating the likes of viPro, Phoenix, Naniwa, Stephano, Moon and Real at offline events....such a bad player.
Sorry, but this thread is elitism. I prefer casters that give me deep strategical insight and don't miss the little things that happen all over the map, but for anyone with less gameknowledge, someone that simply hypes the game and is fun to listen to like Husky might just be a more interesting alternative.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no hes not ur just clueless about the game, cloud makes alot of good points but hes an honest person by nature so whenever he talks about something he comes off as being condescending, if u ever get to know him youd understand that hes actually a good person
im sure he thought about rephrasing alot of his statements just so he could be politically correct but in the end he probably didnt care because hes not fake
and what is this discussion about? Oo i mean. yeah cloud isnt in the top of the world but he never said anything like this. and "bad" players (lol) have to be paid too. but casters that dont even know shit of the game become to much money and fame this days. it´s just a difference when casters say they dont understand what happening in the game or they just say anything what isnt rifght.
artosis sometimes say in gsl that he dont understand situations and i like it more then painuser that just hypes anything and talks trash.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
If he was a NA player he would be the best NA terran though.
He's not even half as good as illusion.
Don't kid yourself.
How did this turn into a player bashing thread?
If you disagree, it should be easy enough to argue your point instead of arguing on a personal level.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
If he was a NA player he would be the best NA terran though.
He's not even half as good as illusion.
Cloud is on the same level or better than Illusion. The kid is really talented and will be way better than Cloud in the future but atm winning against 2-3 big names is not enough imo. But then you are going to tell me Machine is better than Nerchio, and that Incontrol ows Socke u_u
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
I'm sorry what?
You seem very uptight.
So you are telling me that the esv weekly means nothing as well. then, since it doesn't matter to anyone outside Korea.
A tournament is a tournament no matter where its located. EPs has some of the best players outside korea playing in it. Tell me Hasuobs is bad, or socke, or kas even. Cloud goes head to head with each of them and can beat them.
Cloud is easily a top level foreigner on the same level as players like Kas, thorzain, and others.
Are you also saying Jinro is bad, or sheth? because they have not posted results recently? Thorzain didn't post a major result for a entire year, yet he was considered a top foreigner.
Results does not mean they are bad players, or good ones. just means they have some stuff competition.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no hes ur just clueless about the game, cloud makes alot of good points but hes an honest person by nature so whenever he talks about something he comes off as being condescending but thats just who he is as a person, if u ever get to know him youd understand that hes actually a good guy
im sure he thought about rephrasing alot of his statements just so he could be politically correct but in the end he probably didnt care because hes not a fake peson
amen =)
@masterbreti i love cloud and its good youre defending him but no he is not on the same lvl as thorzain, I'm sure he would disagree with you himself there.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no hes ur just clueless about the game, cloud makes alot of good points but hes an honest person by nature so whenever he talks about something he comes off as being condescending but thats just who he is as a person, if u ever get to know him youd understand that hes actually a good guy
im sure he thought about rephrasing alot of his statements just so he could be politically correct but in the end he probably didnt care because hes not a fake peson
amen =)
@masterbreti i love cloud and its good youre defending him but no he is not on the same lvl as thorzain, I'm sure he would disagree with you himself there.
I'm not saying that. What I'm simply saying is that just because one does not post results, doesn't mean they are not good. That was the point of my post. And I do think cloud is on the same level as thorzain. I think it would be a very close BO3 if it came down to that.
Diamond is going on about how bad cloud is based on his "results" and I'm simply saying is that so many other top players have not posted results, yet still are good players. judging someone on results is a bad way to go about things.
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no hes not ur just clueless about the game, cloud makes alot of good points but hes an honest person by nature so whenever he talks about something he comes off as being condescending, if u ever get to know him youd understand that hes actually a good person
im sure he thought about rephrasing alot of his statements just so he could be politically correct but in the end he probably didnt care because hes not fake
Quoted for truth. Cloud one of the best terrans in EU, has been there for a long time and will probably be there for a looong looooong time. He has the balls to say something a lot of players think.
I actually agree with him when casters and Esport orginasation(MLG PPV) makes so much money of the players that recieve allmost nothing for there hard work then we got a problem.
Respect Cloud once again you are the man who got the balls to come forward and say whats wrong.
I see the points made in that casters do/have in the past increased the popularity of the scene. It's a fair point to make, but in certain cases I think the security of tenure that is had by being a pioneer can be counter-productive. To take an example, somebody like Day9 is, barring some ridiculous outburst, not going to be supplanted from his current position. It'll be interesting to see how it goes, I for one think that the temptation to cast will start to be too much of a lure for big-name players, most of whom are much better at analytical casting than the current staple.
I use the example of Day9 because he is a massive figure in the community, and gets a lot of the plum jobs, not as a criticism of his casting which I greatly enjoy.
Cool thing for cloud to do, he doesn't get enough love, he's definitely really good.
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: At this point I'd like to talk about iNcontroL, he gets a lot of hate for being a "bad progamer" and many people don't like that he has a lot of support.
The only reason this gets said is that a lot of people in this community don't actually know anything about Starcraft. He gets a lot of attention because he is a pretty charismatic guy who is on some community shows and contributes. Alot of people watch his games and they just see a win or a loss and can't understand most of what they're seeing so they just thing "he's fucking terrible!". In reality, a lot of the times iNcontroL loses games he outplayed the person for most of the game, then did something too aggressively and loses for it or got caught by a situation that's pretty hard in the metagame right now (not saying that he doesn't get outplayed in situations where he knows how to win, but it's not the majority of his casted games). I'd love to see SC2 fans in a LR of an old JulyZerg game in BW, they'd say he was the worst player they'd ever seen.
I agree about how a lot of casters don't put in enough time to improve themselves which can make it seem like they are just taking advantage of a popular game. There are some casters who have casted different games prior to sc2 and appear to have simply latched onto the next big thing.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
LOL EPS is more important than any ESV tournament ever.
wtf does his record even matter for, this thing has been discussed by a lot of people for a lot of time, and to be honest, i respect cloud for actually putting it down and making the issue more "public"
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
LOL EPS is more important than any ESV tournament ever.
Yet EPS champions have yet to win major lans. ESV champions have won both NASL's, GSL Code S, take the Top 2 in IPL 4 and more. But I agree ESV does not matter in the sense winning it does not make you a top player. It makes you someone to look out for at most. That's what winning major lans are for.
how about listening to what he says before critizicing ClouDs skilllevel.
What he says has many true points, but i also disagree with him in some points. He underrates Apollo imo, i think he has great insight and matches Totalbiscuit well.
but i have to agree with everything else. most casters are bad, there are few i enjoy to listen to (who are not players).
those would be tastosis, apollo/tb, KevinKnocke and to some extend bitterdam, khaldor, doa and wolf. Everyone else is in the "gold" league of casting, while you have to be beyond GM to get recognition as a player.
ClouD may not be a top foreigner, but hes certainly pretty good. Yet, he probably still earns less then the average professional caster who most likely doesnt know what hes talking about.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
LOL EPS is more important than any ESV tournament ever.
Yet EPS champions have yet to win major lans. ESV champions have won both NASL's, GSL Code S, IPL 4 and more. But I agree ESV does not matter in the sense winning it does not make you a top player. It makes you someone to look out for at most. That's what winning major lans are for.
1) this is so offtopic and has nothing to do with the video and the points cloud talks about.
2) just because a great player wins ESV tournaments, its just a random online cup with korean participants. the EPS lives for 10 years and is like the most stable tournament there is in e-sports. although its a national tournament, the importance is undoubtably higher till ESV has offline finals.
I agree entirely with Cloud. There are many casters from all kinds of shows that are bad. I think many of these guys aren't even Master league yet. It's like watching a noob casting pros, they don't understand anything and just babble on about whatever.
It's much easier to be a noob caster and criticize players for not having perfection vision/info but it's much harder to be a pro player, putting in the practice hours, and playing in stressful tournaments.
Although I wouldn't say most of the popular casters are "abusing" the game. Many of them do have the enthusiasm and put in effort to be knowledgeable about the scene, strategies, etc. He's missing the fact that part of their skill is to bring in more viewers, get them involved and excited. So somebody like Husky or TotalBiscuit, who might not have GM/progamer level knowledge, are still good casters and are beneficial to the scene.
Perhaps Cloud should try his hand at casting and see if the grass really is greener on the other side.
I watch alot of SC2 and I think the caster role is harder than it looks and critical to the ongoing health of the scene; however I also agree with a lot of what Cloud says. I feel quite a few casters are not improving and some are actually getting worse.
For me its a shame the worlds best caster teams up with the laziest. Tasteless clearly plays very little SC2 and apart from major events does nothing for the community. There is only code S matches a few days a week ....what is he doing the rest of the time because I doubt its playing/studying Sc2. If his only job is getting the best from Artosis other more deserving could do it.
Bitterdam have reinvigorated NASL and must be right up there as best in NA scene now.
Apollo is the best in Europe, although he needs to knuckle down and put out way more content else he will be usurped.
However the best are part time commentators because they are players. With next wave of top Koreans and young Foreigners (e.g. Illusion, Scarlette ) joining the scene it is inevitable we will see some retirements and as we do some will try their hand at full time casting. At that point I hope to see Commentating going to the next level with likes of Grubby dominating this area of the scene.
Edit: Seems like I need to add a quote so people get what kind of people I'm talking to:
On May 01 2012 23:58 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote: husky is the best example for that, he doesn t know anything but get s so much attention and so on.... sad, i agree with cloud
It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things. I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
I think he has some points, there are casters out there who dont deserve shit because they are bad
He also lists some casters who are bad and who he thinks are good, dont think its a good discussion cuz its his opinion, i dont even know half the casters he is talking about but i know tasteless bw / sc2 and in sc2 he is just getting carried by artosis..
so who's to tell who's bad and gets no piece of the pie... its all just opinions and taste who is to your liking and who's not
On May 02 2012 05:07 Broodwurst wrote: It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things. I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
Did you ever watch korean caster ?. It very fun to watch, eventhough you're the casual viewer.
On May 02 2012 05:07 Broodwurst wrote: It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things. I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
Missed the point / didn't pay attention / did you even fucking watch and listen?
He says how good TotalBiscuit and CatsPajamas are at the Play by play. He says nothing about getting rid of them. Re-watch so I don't have to explain it all to you..
I think Cloud put a little bit too much hate in this video. I personally started SC" because of a random Youtube caster called Bodomreaper. He wasn't very good but he was the opener to my newest and most favorite hobby right now. day[99 on the other hand is sooooo usefull to the community. Not all people are so skillfull to commit into alot of gaming. for me day[9] explains me a lot and teaches me how to be a better gamer. If he will no longer produce dailys i think i might end playing, because there is just not enough knowlege in my brain to understand this game and proceed on my own. But i dont want to be a pro gamer. Without the nooby standart gamrrs the pros wont have an audience and NOONE will watch them play. especially outside of korea i think it is nececcary to produce contend for noobys.
And: Why didnt he say anything about Take? I mean ... he sits on his couch while trolling all casters ^^
Cloud makes some points that is hard to discuss on this site since critique of casters often result in bans and warns.
That this critique is hard to come through with on the 'main' SC2 discussion site I, I suspect, it becomes one of the symptoms as to why casters can get away with being of questionable quality. It wont be voiced and discussed when they underperformed.
Free speech brings forward many unfortunate truths.
In my opinion it is hard to discuss casters, also, because what each individual person finds to be quality is different when you ask around. I have a hard time with DJWheat, for example, simply because I think he has a horrible casting voice.. it is like nails on a blackboard. Hardly a fair thing to critique him as a caster based on as it is something he cant change. He is clearly passionate and involved in e sports. Subjective, individual reasons are what makes people pick very different casters as their favourites but when they have been picked out, and established, as good casters it is hard for them to ever fall through. Because they always makes it to the Grand finals. Players fall through easily, by not performing. Players can be critiqued by what they bring to the table (Mainly their play performance) Casters are protected from critique of what they bring to the table.
On May 02 2012 05:13 markus85rock wrote: And: Why didnt he say anything about Take? I mean ... he sits on his couch while trolling all casters ^^
Because a) Take technically doesnt get paid by someone to cast the games in the first place and b) its his "company" and he has every right to do whatsoever he likes with HIS project.
I think he makes a lot of good points, nowadays you just got to polarize so people give you any kind of attention. When you listen to Grubby casting its allways another league then the regular casters doing it, thats also one of the things that makes Takes Homestory Cups so extraordinary.
I really don't think you should be flamming casters, tbh, lets see the progamers do casting! Quite frankly, these guys are popular because they have personality and energy. Sure maybe some of them aren't as knowledgable as progamers or GM's but you know what, the majority of the people watching them are less knowledgable than those people anyways its only a select few that may know more about the game so plz leave them alone and let them continue doing their job. If progamers want more cash unionize and demand more from your teams.
a good example for really bad casters are the ones in the nasl.NOT rotterdam and mr. bitter but the other couple. i dont even know their name cause their casting is so annoying for me. pointing out so many things that are really not worth mentioning; just casting the units, the fights, expanding or not AND not some really interesting things like the ordinary build orders, follow ups, gas timings, scouting etc. etc.
i feel for cloud as i'm not even close to be a that good player with that much insight; so when even I REALIZE they are talking trash( didn't find an appropriate word) there has to be something wrong with their casting
I think the main problem is that Casters get people to watch a certain event.
if there is Event A with Nestea, MMA and Naniwa, Event B with Stephano, Polt and Hero and Event C with DRG, MKP and Parting many people will make their decision based upon who casts these games. This is different in other sports where there is mostly just one league at a certain time and fans root for teams/players instead of casters
On May 02 2012 02:03 Otolia wrote: Another one of ClouD "events", this guy are serious issues. He is bad at SC2, he never achieved anything of note and when he has an issue with something it has always something to do with money.
He isn't discussing anything he is just randomly pointing fingers at people.
no hes not ur just clueless about the game, cloud makes alot of good points but hes an honest person by nature so whenever he talks about something he comes off as being condescending, if u ever get to know him youd understand that hes actually a good person
im sure he thought about rephrasing alot of his statements just so he could be politically correct but in the end he probably didnt care because hes not fake
A lot of people are nice and likeable. It doesn't make their ideas and the way to present them any better. I have expressed a point of view of his level and I admit it may have been uncalled for because I'm no one to judge him. However the rest of my posts stands.
He isn't condescending in this video, he is envious of casters. This topic could have been handled much better than he does, but like you say he doesn't care at all about changing things, ranting is all that he wants. Like the previous times with prizepools he has a point but he is so aggressive that it destroys what could have been a good debate.
On May 02 2012 05:13 markus85rock wrote: I think Cloud put a little bit too much hate in this video. I personally started SC" because of a random Youtube caster called Bodomreaper. He wasn't very good but he was the opener to my newest and most favorite hobby right now. day[99 on the other hand is sooooo usefull to the community. Not all people are so skillfull to commit into alot of gaming. for me day[9] explains me a lot and teaches me how to be a better gamer. If he will no longer produce dailys i think i might end playing, because there is just not enough knowlege in my brain to understand this game and proceed on my own. But i dont want to be a pro gamer. Without the nooby standart gamrrs the pros wont have an audience and NOONE will watch them play. especially outside of korea i think it is nececcary to produce contend for noobys.
And: Why didnt he say anything about Take? I mean ... he sits on his couch while trolling all casters ^^
He doesn't say those random youtube guys should stop casting, they just shouldn't get more money than a professional player who actually puts serious time into the game.
Why should he say anything about TaKe? He's barely a caster these days and I doubt he'd label himself as one.
On May 02 2012 05:07 Broodwurst wrote: It's not the caster's job to explain to you every detail about a players decisions, timings and whatnot. If you want that book a training session with said player, or discuss the games with other high-level players. A casters job is to present the game well to a broad audience, with an analyst by his side to give some deeper insight into things. I mean sure, get all the Huskies, TotalBiscuits and other people to stop casting Sc2. Replace them all with guys who "understand the game at a top level" but sound boring as fuck to the casual viewer. What you'll be left with is casting that appeals to a minority and a viewership that's reduced to this same minority. Don't forget to cry a lot when price money at tournaments gets lower because advertising to 5k people won't cut it anymore and not everyone can pull a MLG-style ppv.
Can't you have both, understanding the game and not being "boring as fuck", I mean? Anyways, I don't know why people assume it's either the one or the other.
As for the Vlog, I share some of ClouD's sentiments, but definitely not to such an extreme as he might have. I do not think that some casters are leeching off the community, however I do get irritated sometimes if I hear casters promoting themselves for the x-th time (while never mentioning the players).
Well, I can't agree with Cloud. He is just so hateful. Why that flame vs TLO? He has a stream, he trys to win something (and fails), but he is always a nice guy! That's why alot of people like him. Now compare that to yourself: You aren't a killer in tournaments as well. But all the interviews I saw of you are filled with negativity. You say: "I hate this game!" You say: I don't enjoy that game!" Honestly: Why should any sponsor be happy about having somebody like you on his payroll?
Then next is the ***-kissing of Artosis. I mean: How about just watching Tasteosis? They make bad calls all the time, they don't know, what unit deals what amount of damage (legendary is their debate of how many stalkers you need to kill a medivac....5minutes long, no right answer. Any they repeated that many times, instead of looking it up once).
I would guess that bigger organizations really aren't playing the less known casters that much (not sure why he's so unhappy to be honest). The people who run bigger tournaments seem relatively intelligent people as far as I've seen and I don't believe they would overpay much for second tier casters (they are quite easily replacable probably). He pretty much said that he's ok with most of the top tier casters (whom I'm sure tournaments are willing to pay for) so I would guess he's just a bit wrong about how much monies casters are paid.
I believe his logic that players work hard and thus casters shouldn't get paid is a bit stupid though. People shouldn't be payed based on how hard they work, but rather how much they contribute (it is a lot more complicated than that of course, but I hope at least one of you will get what I'm trying to point at). Cloud, for example, is at the moment a pretty useless thing in the bigger picture compared to d.Apollo, for example again. The problem with low quality casters getting paid isn't the reason why many players can't get paid. They are quite separate markets in my opinion. The problem with the caster market is that it has very low supply at the moment in my opinion (which means high price and low quality). The player market on the other hand is a lot more competitive (which drives the player price down, which makes players sad). You can find relatively easily 10 people who can adequately replace Cloud, but doing that with Apollo is a lot more complicated.
What I'm trying to say is that I think the whole caster vs player thing is not the correct way to look at this issue (there are many-many people who get payed more to do less than SC2 casters). They are very much different things (I can understand how someone can be frustrated, but it's still just jealousy).
Some casters are extremely bad, and they do not get a huge following, one is like Painuser / HD at IPL4, they had no player knowledge, no game knowledge.
It disgusts me when casters say things that are outright wrong, thats why it hurt me so much to watch Painuser / HD, because they had no knowledge of the game or players, but if they know how to make the cast fun, but don' try and play analyst, they can do okay.
Bitterdam is very funny to listen to, the best part is all of random things about what rotterdam does on ladder AKA Void Ray All ins and the like, they both have good game knowledge aswell as player knowledge, whenever I listen to their cast of more unknown players I feel like I get to know those players.
ClouD saying that because players practice 10 hours a day should get payed a lot more than casters is pretty much the same as saying "Because I practice all day I should get more money than the guy who sits at a desk answering phone calls from a company".
He keeps speaking like PainUser has a gigantic following.
Honestly, when a caster earns more money from an event than the winner of said event (Day9 and HuK at Dreamhack Summer 2011), you know there's something wrong with your sport. Perhaps the simple reality of it is that SC2 is too boring to watch in and out of itself, and requires a good caster to make it entertaining; if so, then going out of your way to get Day9/Tastosis is just a good business decision on the tournament organizer's side.
So, basically Cloud wants more money. I say, play better, then you'll get it.
Casters chose a much more stable way of living, and as such it might not be their passion, but why is that a problem? We don't pay passionate players, we pay those that are good, produce results and show that their skill is what separates them.
It's not that same line of work, it doesn't take the same kind of skill, so I don't see the big reason for comparing it. Sure there are some bad casters, but those won't survive for long, and if they do, they produce something worthwhile, else people would not pay attention to do it.
In all honesty Cloud, if you don't think you're getting payed enough, either you're just not good enough, or you're not passionate enough. And no, those two don't go hand in hand, being passionate is not enough to win and go big.
On May 02 2012 05:57 Toadvine wrote: Honestly, when a caster earns more money from an event than the winner of said event (Day9 and HuK at Dreamhack Summer 2011), you know there's something wrong with your sport.
People really underestimate how hard being a caster is. Players always go on this shtick about how much harder it is being a player and yeah, you have to win or you don't get paid and that sucks and its obviously very difficult and competitive, but there is considerably less room for casters in the environment. There are a tiny, finite number of spots each tournament has for casting and until someone they already have retires/dies/changes careers they don't go away. If you're an aspiring caster how do you get a spot in an MLG? It's basically impossible, at least the path as a player is clear enough in "win games". It's absurdly hard work on both ends, you can be an amazing caster and have absolutely no one give you the time of day. Orb casted 12 hours straight multiple times a week for months in ESV before anyone even knew who he was.
I wish the community would show more support for the players "who live for the game". Hard work and practice doesn't get enough credit in this community and after all the proscene only exists because we have people who practice their ass off to entertain you.
How many casters live for the game and get no support? There are hundreds of guys out there with youtube channels hustling constantly to get views in an already crowded field and don't get any support. This is no different between casters and players.
wtf, you are not paid for "hard work", but what the market is willing to pay. Cloud should start casting ..
BTW top players earn a lot of money and only top casters make reasonable money. there are tons of casters who do not earn any money. Cloud cannot compare himeself with Day9, because Day9 is like "Nestea of the casters". He should compare his income with the income of a scnd level caster
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: The worst part for me and ClouD also mentions that in the video is that many casters don't even try to understand or increase their game knowlegde. I mean they LIVE OFF THIS GAME called Starcraft 2, but apperantly they don't even bother to learn the game properly.
Am I the only one who had Tasteless come to mind when I read this? I love the guy to death, but it doesn't seem like keeps up with SC2 knowledge outside of the games he casts. The Wolftosis cast completely out shined the Tastosis cast last week because wolf seemed to have a much better grasp of what was going on.
On May 02 2012 05:57 Toadvine wrote: Honestly, when a caster earns more money from an event than the winner of said event (Day9 and HuK at Dreamhack Summer 2011), you know there's something wrong with your sport.
Can you elaborate why this is a problem?
Well, it implies that the caster's effort is more valuable than that of the player who won. Which puts you even lower on a "competitive sport" scale than something like WWE. At least people actually watch that for the wrestlers themselves. I'm having some trouble thinking of another activity where the commentator is more important than the subject matter. Maybe some form of stand-up comedy?
On May 02 2012 06:01 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: wtf, you are not paid for "hard work", but what the market is willing to pay. Cloud should start casting ..
I'm pretty sure he'd do so instantly but realises his english is not up to it.
i think casters do a lot to bring attention, also, the ratio of players to casters is so minute that it makes the issue of some notable casters getting more out of it a non issue.
On May 02 2012 05:28 Charon1979 wrote: I think the main problem is that Casters get people to watch a certain event.
if there is Event A with Nestea, MMA and Naniwa, Event B with Stephano, Polt and Hero and Event C with DRG, MKP and Parting many people will make their decision based upon who casts these games. This is different in other sports where there is mostly just one league at a certain time and fans root for teams/players instead of casters
Maybe I'm just different, but I don't care if Moletrap and Painuser are casting Event A, I'm watching that one for sure (possibly even muted). For me you'd have to go a fair distance down the ladder for me to prioritize casters over the players. Maybe if the events are something more like:
On May 02 2012 06:01 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: wtf, you are not paid for "hard work", but what the market is willing to pay. Cloud should start casting ..
I'm pretty sure he'd do so instantly but realises his english is not up to it.
That's what he says, but that's only half the truth. I think he would not be popular, because only few want to listen to somebody like Cloud. Just too negative and hateful. I mean: You don't want to get depressive over watching your hobby, are you?
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: The worst part for me and ClouD also mentions that in the video is that many casters don't even try to understand or increase their game knowlegde. I mean they LIVE OFF THIS GAME called Starcraft 2, but apperantly they don't even bother to learn the game properly.
Am I the only one who had Tasteless come to mind when I read this? I love the guy to death, but it doesn't seem like keeps up with SC2 knowledge outside of the games he casts. The Wolftosis cast completely out shined the Tastosis cast last week because wolf seemed to have a much better grasp of what was going on.
Sadly enough I agree. And I say sadly because I "grew up" with his casts for GOM back in brood war, which I loved. He seemed to be more on top of things back then.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time.
Do you? and really do they?
Think they mentioned it a couple of times on the GSL so.... They do work long hours and try to improve their cast. So let's not have them under appriciated.
Having spoken to some other very well-known casters, they have confirmed Tastosis don't have half the schedule they make out they do.
i think the most of you forget that payment in esports is still something you have to work hard for. And still its a question made by the teams you maybe get payed by. A good point that is made b4 that you cant compare Cloud with day9 or some other high known caster (artosis?).
Telling that day9 is bad or something made me a bid sad. He analizez the shit out of the games, like he did years ago. And like grubby said some hours ago live on takes stream. There are other ways to tell something like this.
I also would like to mention the fame you should work for, like a TLO or Idra, if u see how MANY viewers they have on their lifestreems its awesome. Idra explodes on over 10k everytime i see him streaming.
Esports going equal to other sports out there. If u want more money you need more fame and sucess. And you have to work for it, make yourself more know. Beside that Cloud is an awesome player and i respect what he said there, and i can only feel what it is like playing more than 8+ hours a day. But there a casters casting events all weekend, and this is hard work aswell. And if you heard grubby today. Day9 is working 8-10h a day. so why blame him...
imo: go cast if you think its so easy. And why do ppl always know or think korean caster are so much better ??? I cant understand them.
PS: SOme other point i liked was the mix between entertaining and game knowledge. for myself. I liked kaldor long time ago in wc3, in sc2 i cant enjoy him since he points out how good he is all the time.
Someone mentioned that the casters should prepare more for their games and learn more about the players they are casting. This I 100% agree with. Whenever Sheth plays all we get to know is that he is a mannerbear (lol?). We get it! Similar can be said with other players.
Why do we NEVER get to hear the age of a player, their hometown, what they did before being pro´s if they did anything and all that background stuff? I would also love to hear some funny anecdotes if the casters know any. Actually, when I think about it, Rotterdam is really good at telling stories about the players that are not game related. More casters really need to do that imo.
I´ve previously criticized IGN for spamming their retarded Twitter-shit again and again every 5 mins so I am glad that Cloud brings it up as well. Catspajamas and the staff at IGN REALLY need to start treating their audience like adults and reduce the useless twitter spam to a minimum. Why not just have an overlay at the buttom of the screen with social media contacts and such? Do they really think that spamming and pissing off the viewers will make them go to twitter and press follow? Will I buy items in Diablo 2 cause I constantly get spammed by bots trying to sell me stuff? NO! I squelch the fuckers.
Btw this apply to other organisations as well but IGN comes to my mind as the worst.
On May 02 2012 00:29 SiroKO wrote: Tasteless is the epitome of that obscene lazyness. He is casting GSL code S, yet mixed up twilight/citadel of adun in his last cast and in all honesty, doesn't seem to play the game at all, or at best at a platinum league level. He has been in Korea for nearly 5 years yet still can't talk Korean at all.
Khaldor is basically the opposite... He has strong work ethics, comments weekly tournament, try hard to learn Korean, try to meet the progamers and talk with them... I wish the last all the luck required to succeed...
Every time I think of Khaldor, I think of German engineering. Striving for perfection. Always trying to adapt with good work ethic.
Also agree on the Day9 part. To me people that had done so much for the community are Husky and HD. Bringing 1 million new viewers into Starcraft 2 is what I call great contribution to the community, not someone who over-hypes things and gets $20k to attend an event while pros that practice their ass off would get 500 bucks if they're lucky.
So glad he calls out Day9, his casting has been absolutely mediocre ever since the TSL3 finals imo. I think its due to him not having the game knowledge he had back in the day. His dailies are so low-level too I really miss the high-level BW analysis he used to do and I have a hard time supporting him these days.
You expect too much from western esports. Historically it's always been a joke, and there's no indication that will ever change - hell, even the people behind it hardly changed and now that they've started making money off of it... no way.
"Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
The unfortunate thing is that the players, people who are actually genuinely passionate about and committed to the games they play, end up having the worst of it. But alas, to change it you'd have to change the whole western media culture, even culture in general.
I'll bet anyone anything they want that 5 years from now the only SC2 we'll be watching is Korean leagues (IF it sticks there even), with a bit of amateur leagues on the side, and neither the foreign players nor the casters will be getting any money.
I like how the players want a large game, and want to be the stars, but when the casters interview them, they have 0 personality, nothing to say and then complain about not being in the public eye. You can't have it both ways.
Totally agree on kaldhor being a baller , i've never been a fan of the tasteosis combo, tasteless especially should be removed from the cast or demoted at the very least, he's casting is always mediocore, he's constantly parroting what artosis says and never appears interested in starcraft 2 in the slightest
On May 02 2012 06:27 Talin wrote: You expect too much from western esports. Historically it's always been a joke, and there's no indication that will ever change - hell, even the people behind it hardly changed and now that they've started making money off of it... no way.
"Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
The unfortunate thing is that the players, people who are actually genuinely passionate about and committed to the games they play, end up having the worst of it. But alas, to change it you'd have to change the whole western media culture, even culture in general.
I'll bet anyone anything they want that 5 years from now the only SC2 we'll be watching is Korean leagues (IF it sticks there even), with a bit of amateur leagues on the side, and neither the foreign players nor the casters will be getting any money.
Agree, the foreign scene always goes for those hypes and publicity stuffs, which is not a good model for the long terms. Skill matters in the long terms, and history will repeat itself.
Oh look Cloud is whining about something. I am shocked.
Why do players care how much casters make? If it's that easy Cloud then just become a caster.
It's actually much easier to practice and get better at playing Starcraft than it is to practice to be able to capture the attention of random strangers and make them care about something.
People really underestimate how hard being a caster is. Players always go on this shtick about how much harder it is being a player and yeah, you have to win or you don't get paid and that sucks and its obviously very difficult and competitive, but there is considerably less room for casters in the environment. There are a tiny, finite number of spots each tournament has for casting and until someone they already have retires/dies/changes careers they don't go away. If you're an aspiring caster how do you get a spot in an MLG? It's basically impossible, at least the path as a player is clear enough in "win games". It's absurdly hard work on both ends, you can be an amazing caster and have absolutely no one give you the time of day. Orb casted 12 hours straight multiple times a week for months in ESV before anyone even knew who he was.
I think he was talking about how easy the current casters have it and not how hard it is for unkown casters to become big. And you basically just said the current casters have it very easy because they have the job for as long as they want no matter how little they improve (or even how much they get worse) or how hard their competition works to improve.
Isn't this a big problem because there is no inventive for any of the current casters to become the truly excellent Korean level casters the tournaments and industry needs to grow the audience? Maybe if tournaments made it clear they can be replaced if someone else shows more talent and effort esports would be much bigger right now.
On May 02 2012 06:00 heyoka wrote: People really underestimate how hard being a caster is. Players always go on this shtick about how much harder it is being a player and yeah, you have to win or you don't get paid and that sucks and its obviously very difficult and competitive, but there is considerably less room for casters in the environment. There are a tiny, finite number of spots each tournament has for casting and until someone they already have retires/dies/changes careers they don't go away. If you're an aspiring caster how do you get a spot in an MLG? It's basically impossible, at least the path as a player is clear enough in "win games". It's absurdly hard work on both ends, you can be an amazing caster and have absolutely no one give you the time of day. Orb casted 12 hours straight multiple times a week for months in ESV before anyone even knew who he was.
I wish the community would show more support for the players "who live for the game". Hard work and practice doesn't get enough credit in this community and after all the proscene only exists because we have people who practice their ass off to entertain you.
How many casters live for the game and get no support? There are hundreds of guys out there with youtube channels hustling constantly to get views in an already crowded field and don't get any support. This is no different between casters and players.
This basically is the reason why the current casters suck. There's no turnover rate. The same people are in code S every season. There's no qualifiers and once you've made it big you'll never disappear. The core of the problem isn't that it's harder to make it as a caster, it's that it's easier to stay relevant despite having really poor insight (Day9, Painuser etc.)
first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs. On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general: Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
On May 02 2012 06:43 max1337 wrote: first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs. On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general: Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
Who?
Watch Thorzain and Sheth commentate MLG Arena. I'd rather watch paint dry. Great players and great guys though.
The ideal combination is a really good pro player who also has some charisma (Grubby, Incontrol to a lesser extent). Idra is a good example because he's so incredibly knowledgeable about the game whilst also being incredibly honest. Idra however is not really a charismatic, "people" person.
Charisma isn't something you can practice. It either develops naturally or it doesn't.
On May 02 2012 05:57 Toadvine wrote: Honestly, when a caster earns more money from an event than the winner of said event (Day9 and HuK at Dreamhack Summer 2011), you know there's something wrong with your sport.
Can you elaborate why this is a problem?
Well, it implies that the caster's effort is more valuable than that of the player who won. Which puts you even lower on a "competitive sport" scale than something like WWE. At least people actually watch that for the wrestlers themselves. I'm having some trouble thinking of another activity where the commentator is more important than the subject matter. Maybe some form of stand-up comedy?
I don't think it actually implies anything about the value of effort of one or the other to be honest. It does imply that Day[9] (or equivalent caster) is more expensive than the quality of players you can lure with the prizepool (you can get players cheaper). Whether people should be putting in 10 hours of work a day to compete for such prizes is another matter in my opinion (not connected to the topic at hand).
I can see the argument being that the quality of games is less important for a successful tournament than good production and there are some issues with that (less incentive to improve the quality of games). For some reason I think that paying Day[9] quite a bit of money is more likely to increase the available prize pool (better production -> more happy viewers -> more money) than to take away from it.
As of the scale of things - I'm fairly certain SC2 as a sport (in the context I believe you meant it) is still pretty much in it's infancy, so comparing it to other things won't probably work out that well (I don't it's a particularly intelligent comparison).
On May 02 2012 06:43 max1337 wrote: first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs. On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general: Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
Who?
Watch Thorzain and Sheth commentate MLG Arena. I'd rather watch paint dry. Great players and great guys though.
The ideal combination is a really good pro player who also has some charisma (Grubby, Incontrol to a lesser extent). Idra is a good example because he's so incredibly knowledgeable about the game whilst also being incredibly honest. Idra however is not really a charismatic, "people" person.
Charisma isn't something you can practice. It either develops naturally or it doesn't.
I loved Demuslims casting when he was doing it for ESL wish he would do some more.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Taking out players like Sjow, Socke, Kas is no joke.
Cloud is very very good, better than 90% of foreign Terran, in the top 10 in europe when he is in form, when not he would be top 20 Terrans in europe.
I know very well who Cloud is. His 50% winrate in the international scene also tells me more then LP could. Beating some good players does not make you a good player. Winning tournaments and posting results does. Things Cloud has not done in SC2 (and no, EPS does not count to anyone outside EU).
EPS is twice as competitive as many NA tournaments, sorry to say. I don't agree with everything Cloud is arguing but to object his point use arguments not stupid accusations regarding his level of play.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
Even though Cloud "only" has a 50% win rate in the professional scene that's still better than the 0% Day9 or Orb would have. The fact is he works harder than those guys for this game and just because he isn't the most successful player doesn't mean his argument isn't relevant.
I agree with cloud.Some casters are pretty awful.Game is almost 2 years old and some of them still have no clue about game and makes more money than dedicated pro gamers.Thıs is not acceptable.I think some pro gamers are much better at casting then regular casters like grubby incontrol idra demuslim.I hope in the future community will decline those clueless casters and only accept good ones.
This thread, along with the one on (groan) Reddit. Both show why so many pro gamers just keep to themselves. It's almost impossible to make any arguably controversial statement without everyone jumping on your dick for irrelevant shit. Even Diamond comes in just to insult his win rate.
People complain so much about pros never being involved in this community and this is why.
On May 02 2012 06:43 max1337 wrote: first of all i think, that like 80% of professional players that are casting are way more enjoyable to watch than professional casters. That kind of proves the point cloud is making, which is that casters aren't putting enough effort into their jobs. On the other hand i disagree with could e.g. on Totalbisuit. I think he could be soo great, if he would just sit down and learn the game! Same for Husky: It is pathetic that they are too lazy to learn anything about the game, they make their living of.
But that is just regarding their casting: IMO you also have to look at how much effort they are putting into their job in general: Takesen for example does not put a lot of effort into his casting, but what he does for the community is sooo awesome! We all love the homestory cup, and he made that possible! he turned his flat into a part of the starcraft community. You can say the same about Totalbiscuit, and btw Stacraft is not his only job! Again IMO the biggest failure in this point is Husky, he isn't passionate about Starcraft, although he always says so!
And i do disagree on Apollo! His knowledge is quite okay, and for example Khaldors is not much better (though i like Khaldor)
Uhmm, Total Biscuit doesn't make a living off of Starcraft, in fact he puts a lot into Starcraft where he could be making money on his own channel. Thats where he makes all his money , and a very large sum at that. Hes not very young and has a youtube audience which needs to be babysitted to be maintained. He doesn't have that much time to put into playing more Starcraft games. I must admit, I'm not a Totalbiscuit fan myself, but I do admire him in a way. Much more than I can care for HD, Painuser or Orb.
On May 02 2012 06:46 MrBitter wrote: Was so sad that Carlo forgot about Rotti and me until the end.
that is because you guys care <3 you love what you do <3 and we love watching you <3 and your game knowledge is way above the average caster, you are one of the best casting duos out there
Basically, every pro player so far agrees with the gist of ClouD's video blog while the guys on the other side of the curtain (casters and people responsible for events/tournaments) disagree, the fans/overall community are divided about it.
Not really unexpected results, but it shows that it's a topic worth talking about if there are so many different opinions.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
Even though Cloud "only" has a 50% win rate in the professional scene that's still better than the 0% Day9 or Orb would have. The fact is he works harder than those guys for this game and just because he isn't the most successful player doesn't mean his argument isn't relevant.
Prove he works harder. He plays the game. That is it. He doesn't run tournaments, he doesn't interact as often with his fanbase as the commentators he is slamming, he doesn't do anything to raise the awareness. Nothing. He hasn't won anything notable or giving anything notable to the scene. Just being a player is not enough, unless you are one of the very top players. Cloud is good no doubts, but he's not giving DRG sleepless nights.
He doesn't work harder for the game, he works hard at the game itself, that is not the same thing. He is being judged on separate standards. No commentator is going to make first place prize money, but their income stream is constant. Maybe if the scene had some actually established teams and leagues like the Kespa Proleague, it may be an issue, but as it is.. it's everyone for themselves, and he's not taking advantage of everything available in order to advertise himself, and or make money from what he is doing.
His point about casters not improving was so right. I'm by no means a high level player, but there are some casters that just constantly spout wrong information and that's frustrating for me. I can't imagine how annoying it is for pro players to hear some casters and just constantly think about all the mistakes they're making.
Most of the problem also falls onto the viewers and the tournaments. A lot of tournaments seem to think that most watchers would prefer to hear dumbed down casting, or they think they can attract new viewers with more basic casting and that their current viewers will watch whoever is casting. Maybe most viewers do prefer that though, and I'm in the minority of viewers who would like to more often come away from a cast feeling that I've learned something new
I once watched a translation of the GSL Korean casters casting a PvZ and I learnt more about PvZ than I ever have from any English speaking caster. I'm not saying all casters have to be as good as the Korean GSL casters if they want to cast a major tournament, but they should strive to be that good and it feels like some casters have got too comfortable and don't try to step their game up enough. Hopefully they improve or get replaced, because there are a limited number of spots for full time casters and I'm sure there are better, more deserving casters than some of the ones that currently fill these spots.
Also those saying "Well Cloud should just cast then." are using a straw man. He doesn't say he would be a better caster than Painuser, in fact he acknowledges that his English isn't good enough, but just because Cloud wouldn't be a good caster doesn't mean that other players wouldn't do a better job, if they wanted to cast.
I think if Starcraft survives as an esport for long enough the situation will sort itself out. Eventually high level players will start to cast more often. The community does bandwagon some casters too much, but they also recognise talent when they see it and eventually more players, who are either popular enough already or talented enough to break out as casters will start to come about, Grubby and InControl seem like they could become the first.
edit: Also I'm watching the replays of code A today and enjoying Wolf and Khaldor's casting a lot. I know people say that Wolf tries to be like Tastosis, but can you blame him? Artosis is probably the best English caster. Also they both work really hard, Khaldor casts so many different tournaments I don't know how his voice even holds up, and we've heard from Artosis about how he and Wolf analyse the game together outside of work.
On May 02 2012 03:14 Diamond wrote: What trash. Using the same basis there is no reason Cloud should be making money, he has a 50% winate in TLPD, has no notable major event wins, and has next to no marketability.
Why is he getting paid to play SC2 again?
Players need to not throw stones in glass houses.
Even though Cloud "only" has a 50% win rate in the professional scene that's still better than the 0% Day9 or Orb would have. The fact is he works harder than those guys for this game and just because he isn't the most successful player doesn't mean his argument isn't relevant.
Prove he works harder. He plays the game. That is it. He doesn't run tournaments, he doesn't interact as often with his fanbase as the commentators he is slamming, he doesn't do anything to raise the awareness. Nothing. He hasn't won anything notable or giving anything notable to the scene. Just being a player is not enough, unless you are one of the very top players. Cloud is good no doubts, but he's not giving DRG sleepless nights.
He doesn't work harder for the game, he works hard at the game itself, that is not the same thing. He is being judged on separate standards. No commentator is going to make first place prize money, but their income stream is constant. Maybe if the scene had some actually established teams and leagues like the Kespa Proleague, it may be an issue, but as it is.. it's everyone for themselves, and he's not taking advantage of everything available in order to advertise himself, and or make money from what he is doing.
you wanna tell me someone like painusers whos job it is to cast the games works harder then a player like cloud?
ok, then tell why he doesnt know shit about most players he casts? he talks so much bullshit when it comes to talk about players, its unexcuasable. then take Kevin Knocke, Artosis or Apollo on the other hand. You fucking hear that they worked their asses of to get to every information about players they can get. Take Khaldor - he probably casts (CASTS) 6-8 hours a day, sometimes more, sometimes less while still working for a company and interacting with the community. That is the passion so many pro players share which simply love the game and put 10-12 hours into it. Those are hard working casters - PainUser might work hard (i have my doubts though), but then hes simply not made for the job. Just because ur an ex semipro player, it doesnt mean you are a good caster even if u try to become one. A gold player whos good at play-by-play doesnt become a pro sc2 player by working hard. it doesnt have to work either way.
Im not saying every pro player is a fucking hard working machine, but there are plenty who are but never get the recognition they deserve, cause they simply arent top foreigners yet or dont have fanbases. Its very different in the casting-world.
uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous.
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge.
Its true that casters are being extremely lax about learning more about the game and its players. Its stupid to argue about the money side of things though because the truth is that we don't know how much anyone makes. With that in mind i think we should be harsher and tweet/voice our opinion on these lax casters when we catch them.
All of this leads to salaries becoming public though. Once that happens everything will change for the better.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
i think comparing day9 to painuser, husky and HD is an insult in itself. he wasnt too harsh on day9, he just thinks he overanlyzes things a bit and probably shouldnt be the most "famous" caster therefore. he said hes a great personaly and was a great bw player.
i dont agree with every aspect as well, but with 90% of it at least.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
Would you not say its a casters job to know the game? Sure they probably won't know it as well as most progamers because they do have to do other things to improve their casting aside from having better game knowledge, but they should have significantly more time and opportunities to play the game and discuss the game with pros and other casters than most of their viewers do.
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous.
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge.
everyone can be a pro? where the fuck did you get this from? there are ppl devoting months of playing and no1 even knows them. most of them arent even able to get into GM which is far away from becoming a pro.
also alot of casters make the game entertaining and someone like cloud ... well he did some things in the past that was so "ANTIFANBASE" ... so from a "fanside" i am obvious way more on the caster site then on the site of a player that really dont care about his fans at all
On May 02 2012 07:23 StarVe wrote: Basically, every pro player so far agrees with the gist of ClouD's video blog while the guys on the other side of the curtain (casters and people responsible for events/tournaments) disagree, the fans/overall community are divided about it.
Not really unexpected results, but it shows that it's a topic worth talking about if there are so many different opinions.
basically the casters like TB, Day9, tastosis,husky etc have a HUGE fanbase and they bring a lot of viewer. thats a fact. as a guy responsible for events who would you invite? some random guy who might have some knowledge.. or day9 and husky who both bring a big fanbase.
as long as these casters have a huge fanbase they are doing everything right. day9 has 5k viewers on his stream every day. he does some AHGL event on the same weekend as Dreamhack/MLG and has 18k (?) viewers on the stream.
casting is more than just analysing the perfekt strategy.
everyone is acting like these poor casters with knowledge get no chance.. its a free market. if you are good you will get fame. good=fans/viewer. good does not mean that the 1% of the people who got better knowledge then the rest will like my stream. they are showmen, actors, producer, comedian all in one.
the whole post seems like he wanted attention. shittalked all the known esport figures.. what will he do to get viewers next time? shittalking MLG/GSL?
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
I actually think it's great how he calls Day9 out for overanalyzing irrelevant crap and being ignorant when it comes to the specifics of high level SC2. Day9 is very entertaining, and it's fun to listen to him present his theories of RTS gameplay, it's just his SC2 knowledge that is lacking. He's good at hiding this, but it's true nevertheless. The fact that he's quite arrogant and ignores feedback does not help. I remember an MLG last year where he and Husky were making fun of Sjow and Bomber for not putting banshees behind the natural expansions on Testbug - because according to Day9, they couldn't be attacked while hovering over high ground. Would be a funny mistake, if not how smug Day9 was about it, constantly repeating "You gotta know how SC2 works!". Well, he was right about that.
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous.
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge.
While we're at it, let's stifle education because mediocrity is "good enough"
So many people in this thread have this notion that the world *should* work some specific way. They think that harder work should always equal more pay. If they want to be successful in life, these people need to see the world as it is, not as they want it to be, and then do the best they can with the reality.
There are plenty of people out there putting in 80 hours a week of hard physical labor at minimum wage and struggle to barely survive. There are others who sit in an air conditioned office, listening to other people's presentations, and then make a few decisions throughout a 40 hour workweek who make a crap load of money. People look at that situation and cry out about the inequity, but here's the real deal: There are billions of people who can do that 80 hours of hard physical labor and even if it's done wrong, someone else can go in and redo it for little cost (some guy is also getting paid a little more money to oversee the work and make sure it's being done right). However, if the guy making decisions makes a bad one, he can cost his company millions/billions of dollars and put himself plus thousands of other people out of a job.
It takes a ton of work to be a mediocre pro, but not too many people are going to stop watching an MLG/IPL/Dreamhack/etc because one mediocre pro doesn't show up. However, if you turn on the stream and the caster is some unknown who's doing a mediocre job, you might turn it off. It takes a whole lot more work to be a top-notch player than a top-notch caster, but the caster's presence will determine a tournament's popularity a lot more than a player's presence will with very few exceptions. The supply/demand is extremely bad for the players with few exceptions whereas the supply/demand for casters is extremely good for the casters, but starting to decrease. More good (good enough) casters are popping up and driving down the cost of top-end casters.
Hard work is important in life, but it needs to be paired with smart decisions. Thus far in SC2, putting the work into being a good caster has been much smarter than putting the work into being a good player. When you look at money earnings, especially if you could calculate stream earnings, being a good player with a strong personality will earn you a lot more than just being a great player. You need to quit this notion that hard work = money. Just grinding through as much work as possible has never been the most lucrative path in life.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
I don't even wanna go into a discussion about what he said was wrong and offensive or he was totally right on calling casters out, I just wanna say I enjoyed the vlog and I'm really looking forward to more of them in the future. No matter if you agree with him or not, I think it's great to have a pro player speaking his mind without worrying of what the community might think of it. I hope that future videos will cause discussions and hopefully address some things that are not going the way they should so we can improve everything that's going on in the community. Please don't turn this into some silly drama but see it as an inspiration on how we might improve the scene. I know these vlogs are controversial and I'm pretty sure I won't agree with some of them, but please keep them coming, Cloud!
Supply and demand. There are far less well-known casters than there are players, therefore the casters will get more money and recognition. There's no way around it. Nobody is going to skip watching an event because cloud or tod or xlord or pretty much any player isn't there, because there is always a ton of talent who jump at the opportunity to play in a tournament. But if the only casters at an event are guys I've never heard of or don't like, I'm almost definitely going to skip it.
If the casters are truly not doing a good enough job or working hard enough, they will be replaced by guys who are putting in the effort. And believe me, there are hundreds of amateurs out there trying.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
On May 02 2012 07:53 CoR wrote: also alot of casters make the game entertaining and someone like cloud ... well he did some things in the past that was so "ANTIFANBASE" ... so from a "fanside" i am obvious way more on the caster site then on the site of a player that really dont care about his fans at all
Wait, what?
You like a lot of other guys were late to the dance. Cloud is very well known from BW and he is very well liked in certain circles.
Players not constantly putting themselves out there doesn't mean they don't care about their fans. It's a silly notion.
Thank god we have people like Cloud in this community ! The bad casters and the difference in what casters and players earn have surely been annoying. Therefore I have solely supported the casters that I feel do make an effort, play the game and are excitingly good at what they do.
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous.
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge.
everyone can be a pro? where the fuck did you get this from? there are ppl devoting months of playing and no1 even knows them. most of them arent even able to get into GM which is far away from becoming a pro.
wtf?^^
The point I wanted to make is: Beeing a progamer is a thing you can get easier by practice than beeing a caster. Improving your skill as a gamer is mainly a question of how many games you have done. This do not apply for casting.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous.
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge.
everyone can be a pro? where the fuck did you get this from? there are ppl devoting months of playing and no1 even knows them. most of them arent even able to get into GM which is far away from becoming a pro.
wtf?^^
The point I wanted to make is: Beeing a progamer is a thing you can get easier by practice than beeing a caster. Improving your skill as a gamer is mainly a question of how many games you have done. This do not apply for casting.
This isn't particularly true. There are several casters who made it big almost entirely through casting over and over again and leveraging the connections they made over and over. Kind of like the whole turning a pen into a condo on ebay deal. CatsPajamas pops to mind immediately, and he's even mentioned this as his explicit goal on Destiny's stream a long time ago while he didn't realize the conversation was being streamed.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
To be fair during the first few mlgs the common strategies were a complete clusterfuck of all ins on terrible maps. But I think painuser was pretty alright nonetheless.
Without Husky/HD there would be a lot less people into SC2 watching commentated matches. Without casters there would be no money for players either. Also this is capitalism, you make money if you can and fair doesn't always come into it. Also nerds who are good at games and want to play all day is probably more common than nerds who are great at talking, being entertaining, public speaking and being charming. Similar to engineering, the technical stuff is probably harder, but managing the engineers pays better. A rarer skill set in that specific population.
cloud seems to be the revolutionist mouth (or finger if you want), he always tries to make changes where he believes its not good
hes totally right about this subject, how much casters evolved in the past months/years? almost nothing, they have their almost untouchable place and it seems only very few are passionate and deserve what they get
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
Cloud is just but hurt really. Its just the nature of the way things are in Starcraft. The level of competition in the caster role is not that huge, and with all the tournments going on leagues are taking what they can get. It will be this way until players stop playing and start casting, incontrol and grubby come to mind.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
well, comparing pu to day9 seems so wrong, you realize both day9 and artosis have a really strong name from bw and there they could actually compete as players, in the most competitive way, they were there
they didnt even try too much to be good in sc2, but their knowledge is just awesome and they keep improving, they are passionate and cast cause they like, they didnt start to cast 2 months ago to earn some money
I think people are missing the point here. IMO Cloud was speaking about LACK OF GAME KNOWLEDGE as the biggest problem with most casters and not about who earns more money and gets more recognition. I think everybody is fine with casters getting more money than average player (supply/demand rule applies here) but those casters better do their job well which is currently not the case. I liked the point Cloud was making about casters never getting a "Defeat screen" on a tournament - once you get to the point of being known and recognized it seems like it's a win/win scenario and you can stop improving and learning about the game, but the money and fame will keep coming in. There're so many mediocre casters right now, it's mindblowing and still they're getting invited to cast tournaments and different kinds of events.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
It's not at all irrelevant.
Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
It's not at all irrelevant.
Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better.
Which was the original discussion.
You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game.
well thats not entirely true, gretorp sucks too but he actually has more than PU lol, its more about gretorps inability to get his points across than him not knowing what is going on.
On May 02 2012 07:43 projectChaos wrote: Don`t forget: Everyone can be a pro or at least a semi pro like cloud, if you put enough time into it. This does not apply for casters. You need some requirements like proper language, good personality, nice voice,beeing humorous.
Knowing the game by playing alot is a good thing to do as a caster, but there are other components, too. At the end casters do not cast for progamers. They do it for the average player. So knowledge above these avarage viewer should be enough knowgledge.
everyone can be a pro? where the fuck did you get this from? there are ppl devoting months of playing and no1 even knows them. most of them arent even able to get into GM which is far away from becoming a pro.
wtf?^^
The point I wanted to make is: Beeing a progamer is a thing you can get easier by practice than beeing a caster. Improving your skill as a gamer is mainly a question of how many games you have done. This do not apply for casting.
Lol ok.
Tell that to people who've played tons of games since BW and still arent very good at SC2.
Also, casters / professions related to elocution have refined their craft over years of practice. I honestly wouldn't be surprised one bit if there are esports casters out there who constantly look into the mirror to practice casting.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
It's not at all irrelevant.
Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better.
Which was the original discussion.
You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game.
Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD.
Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
It's not at all irrelevant.
Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better.
Which was the original discussion.
You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game.
Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD.
Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about.
no you arent getting it, i am extrapolating that day9 is likely a better player in general because of the fact that it shows in his casting as well as the fact that you obviously know hes got skill from before, just because he doesn't play in tournaments anymore does not preclude him from being good, just watch his fucking mouse movements in his dailys.. you know hes masters or above..
Players are artists; Casters are critics. The players would play even if they weren't getting paid; the critics wouldn't have a job if the players didn't play. Casters translate the game to viewers; players wouldn't survive without viewers. They're both integral parts of the puzzle.
Is it really surprising that the demand for specific casters is higher and accountability is lower? Their job is to be as consistent and accessible as possible as the literal "faces" of e-sports. We occasionally see players, but you are listening to / watching the casters 99% of time. Thus they become valuable commodities, moreso than the players, because they are the means through which the players communicate their art to you.
There will always be thousands of kids who want to play video games all day; there are much fewer people willing to sacrifice their shot at a higher-paying day job to talk about games all day. It's basic supply and demand operating within a world where consistency and relatability are vital.
All that being said, I don't think there are any casters in the scene today that aren't trying their absolute hardest to refine and perfect their "art" and who draw a large audience. Maybe that audience is a different demographic then yours, but it doesn't invalidate the casters' influence within that sphere. Viewers are viewers.
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: because casters get too much money and fame for too little effort. I completely agree with this statements. Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game.
Did I really just read that? lol
All of the best casters put in their work to understand the game, and/or do lots of other things for the community. I just...wow. Day9, Wheat, Artosis, Tasteless, Apollo, Khaldor, and many others. You're telling me they aren't passionate about this game and don't put in a lot of time and effort? And never under heavy pressure? It's VERY nerve wracking to have to speak in front of a huge crowd and try not to mess up. Am I saying it's harder than being a player? Of course not, I just can't believe that all of their effort is being boiled down into a couple of highly uninformed comments.
On May 02 2012 08:03 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: [quote]
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
It's not at all irrelevant.
Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better.
Which was the original discussion.
You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game.
Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD.
Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about.
no you arent getting it, i am extrapolating that day9 is likely a better player in general because of the fact that it shows in his casting as well as the fact that you obviously know hes got skill from before, just because he doesn't play in tournaments anymore does not preclude him from being good, just watch his fucking mouse movements in his dailys.. you know hes masters or above..
He's not a better player at the only game that matters for this discussion. Maybe he's better at Brood War, Pacman, Tetris, Call of Duty or whatever the fuck, but he's not better at this game.
Let me ask a set of related question from a casual fan: How can I vote 'against' a bad caster? How do you encourage them to improve? Alternatively, how can we get tournaments to make Grubby and his kind cast?
Just bashing bad casters in the forums or whatever seems fairly rude, especially as it is pretty ceaselessly negative. Send email to tournament organizers? Stop watching their events? If you stop watching, will they know why? I really hope Diamond or someone can give some insight. Where and how can we inform organizers we want better casting without getting lumped in with the endless droves of 'haters'?
On May 02 2012 08:08 sc14s wrote: [quote] i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
day9 did 10x more than PU ever did in BW, why are we comparing their previous skill levels again? They both obviously aren't of tip top skill level but certainly when i listen to day9 as opposed to PU, D9 has soo much more insight into the games.
An entirely different game...
you missed my point where i said their PREVIOUS skill levels PU doesn't even compete anymore so its irrelevant.
It's not at all irrelevant.
Painuser is better at the game both players are paid to cast. Much better in fact. Meaning his knowledge of the game is better.
Which was the original discussion.
You dont know who is better, all i know is how the cast and its pretty much night and day... pu sucks balls at casting, all the pros that i watch cast that are actually good at the game are pretty damn good at casting generally.. hes the only one that has this exception that i know of who is "pro" but sucks balls at insight into the game.
Painuser is not that bad at casting, his main problem is that he's thrown his lot in with HD.
Once again you're completely dodging the topic and making this about casting skill which is not what I was ever talking about.
no you arent getting it, i am extrapolating that day9 is likely a better player in general because of the fact that it shows in his casting as well as the fact that you obviously know hes got skill from before, just because he doesn't play in tournaments anymore does not preclude him from being good, just watch his fucking mouse movements in his dailys.. you know hes masters or above..
He's not a better player at the only game that matters for this discussion. Maybe he's better at Brood War, Pacman, Tetris, Call of Duty or whatever the fuck, but he's not better at this game.
apparently BW is completely irrelevant to sc2.. okay guess im done talking to you since BW = pacman
On May 02 2012 00:19 Dexington wrote: I'm glad someone finally called out Day9. His casting is way over the top and nonsensical most of the time at major events.
Bitterdam is the only casting duo that is top notch at the moment. Tasteless has gone way downhill, but Artosis is still great. Grubby is probably the single best caster in the business though. He is so well spoken and has a larger vocabulary than any other caster, which is astounding since it isn't his first language.
This nails it, especially on day9 and grubby. I think once current pro players start retiring we will see a more competitive and better scene for casters
Hahaha, awesome, TLO is asking a Bo7 match with Cloud to show him he's way better than what he credits him for. I love grudge matches. Too bad he dind't ask the oldschool Bo9 all match-ups format.
I don't know, ClouD isn't a guy i listen to. He like a kid who says stuff and doesn't understand the consequences.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
Yes, i read his "explanation" which only includes an apology directed at TL for "underestimating" the potential for serious discussion in the community. Let's just say there are others he should apologize to.
Caster bashing is an easy bandwagon to hop onto. Too easy. They're people, most of them work hard. They're measured against other casters. You know what? Players are also measured against their peers. I won't comment on ClouD's work ethics, i will just ask you to look at his results.
Should all foreign players get better in comparison to Korean players? YES. ABSOLUTELY.
Should all foreign casters get better in comparison to Korean casters? YES. ABSOLUTELY.
We all know this already - we're behind, we're getting there, we're trying, some harder than others. Get over it.
I think the moral of the story here is that the players that pour their heart and soul into this game every day for hours on end and are top of the line (just not korean) don't get nearly the amount of fame (or even money?) as some of these casters that maybe spend a total of 2 hours a week or month in the game.
People should demand more out of our casters and hold our players up on higher ground.
From where I stand it seems like hes upset that casters and players get more recognition and pay than he does. While some of the points he brings up are valid the underlying tone, at least in my opinion, is that hes just upset he isn't as famous as he things he should be.
On May 02 2012 08:23 MostDifferent wrote: Another problem about the most well known casters is that they do not criticize blizzard at all almost
they do not talk about problems about the game lack of features lack of support from blizzard etc
Why would they, they're there to commentate on the game not give us personal opinions on features. I don't want Day9 telling me he wants this feature added, I want him telling me how the players have been performing, records against the player they're up against, their race stats etc.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. Day9 is always busy with anything SC related. Some casters might not be as good as others but that's why they're not as populair as others. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
Casters aren't the cornerstone of SC2. They stand on the shoulders of the players. SC2 would be a fucking terrible game to watch if people weren't so committed to playing it really really well.
There's a lot of bad casters out there who don't try to have a better understanding of the game. It's even worse when they pretend to know shit and misinform the viewers. This is pretty much the main reason i watch only fpvods or mute everything.
The only thing I hate about these types of threads, is that everyone misses the real problem in eSports is that it's top heavy in pay period. Which is really the trend in general I would hope starts to even out over time.
Casters, Players, and Everyone Else all have a small percentage at the top that make good money. Then there is the everyone else who is lucky if they make enough to put a roof over their head and food on a table. Though I would argue the vast majority of the everyone else isn't even making enough to not work some sort of 'other job' to make ends meet.
I like to equate where eSports is to the early days of the NLF back circa the 1920's and 30's. Back then most players, coaches, radio commentators etc. All worked a 9 to 5 because being part of Football didn't put food on the table. There was maybe a select few who could just do football for a living. This is where eSports is at right now, the vast majority have to get help or work a 9 to 5 to make ends meet, and a very small percentage of anyone at the top can do it for a living. It doesn't matter who you are caster, player, or guy working at the live events.
The problem is that even though Cloud says many players could be good casters and could do a lot better the problem lies in the "could". They could be but if they were they would need to put in a lot of work too. For example Grubby, everyone loves his casting but from what I have heard he really prepares for his casts and puts in hard work. It is very easy to just see the end result and judge by that and Cloud is very harsh. If every player would hear after losing in the first round of a tournament: "You are so bad, I know many people who could have done better" nobody would call that fair. And most casters get exactly that, not just from cloud just look at reddit or chat-channels. They are under constant pressure to appease their viewers, and that is a very volatile relationship. The difference in the money they are making is just that casters provide easier accesable content and with more consistensy. And if you look at a Day9, TotalBiscuit or even Husky, they all put out an enourmous amount of content and work hard to organize tournaments, stay in touch with viewers, travel to events etc. I don't think any caster who is even remotly succesful isn't working very hard for that to stay this way. Players also have to see that casters do not primarily want to appease grandmaster-players with their analysis but more the bronze to diamond-players who are most of the time perfectly happy with some not so educated casts. The main problems is probably more how players are treated not how casters are paid.
On May 02 2012 08:23 MostDifferent wrote: Another problem about the most well known casters is that they do not criticize blizzard at all almost
they do not talk about problems about the game lack of features lack of support from blizzard etc
Why would they, they're there to commentate on the game not give us personal opinions on features. I don't want Day9 telling me he wants this feature added, I want him telling me how the players have been performing, records against the player they're up against, their race stats etc.
Why would they do this in a professional cast?
I could see some basis for it.. for example backing up the crowd with "we want lan" in the gstl finals @ IPL4.. that seems like a fine place to criticize blizzard.
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: because casters get too much money and fame for too little effort. I completely agree with this statements. Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game.
Did I really just read that? lol
All of the best casters put in their work to understand the game, and/or do lots of other things for the community. I just...wow. Day9, Wheat, Artosis, Tasteless, Apollo, Khaldor, and many others. You're telling me they aren't passionate about this game and don't put in a lot of time and effort? And never under heavy pressure? It's VERY nerve wracking to have to speak in front of a huge crowd and try not to mess up. Am I saying it's harder than being a player? Of course not, I just can't believe that all of their effort is being boiled down into a couple of highly uninformed comments.
LoL
In your arguments, you should try actually making points instead of just stating that the original comment is uninformed.
Complaining about casters giving too little effort? Why not call out names and start picking them apart one-by-one instead of making a brash generalization? While I can agree that there's room for improvement in the casting department, you're kidding yourself if you don't realize the effort it takes not only to be a caster at a major tournament having to talk for hours, but also garner the popularity through whatever means to have the opportunity to be a major caster. You don't have to cast at MLG to know that staying focused to game after game for hours at a time day after day takes its toll. It really is no cakewalk, that shouldn't even have to be explained. Secondly, casters put in a lot of their own time making solo casts and- oh what the hell am I saying this for, I didn't see ClouD's vlog but is Husky one of the primary "problem casters"? Yeah people have and will continue to bash Husky and sometimes for good reason, but really. I find it hard to discuss casters lacking effort without being able to point out any one in particular. Day[9] has put in an unimaginable amount of effort for years. Surely ClouD must know of the Day[9] daily. In fact in terms of effort I can't think of anyone who's done more than Sean Plott. Any other "problem casters" we should have some names for discussion otherwise what's the point? And does it really matter? Pro gamers play the game for money, casters cast games for the money, at the end of the day that's all it's really about.
The thing is that Cloud is so naive and does not understand the amount of stupid shit he says with his narrow minded programer vision.
As a player that made almost no success in StarCraft 2 (his biggest career achievements are WCG Italy wins and a loss in Nony vs Cloud final for a trip to Korea tournament) he does sure give a lot of crap to players such as TLO, PainUser, InControl and others.
As a player, he often sees a defeat screen at first rounds of the tournaments. But unlike him, casters do the entire job from start of a tourney to finish. Does anyone remember TB and crew at last years DreamHack? Does he even understand that StarCraft casting is not all about understanding the finest moves and strats, but talking to the audience, having a good voice, knowing how to cast with multiple persons, adjust to stream audience and a lot of other stuff behind the scenes (setting up streams, tournaments, uploading videos and so on).
The amount of shit he gives to Husky who invested ALL of his time to StarCraft in beta, creating videos, promoting, traveling to do interviews, talking to people who do not understand RTS games AT ALL. His ignorant look on StarCraft industry is so tiny that his blog does not deserve any attention at all. If you do not get a lot of numbers to watch his streams, where is he going to get payed from?
As for the numbers, how many successful casters are there? 5? 10? 15? Now count how many progamers are there with pay roles and tournaments behind them.
Jesus Cloud, i was wondering if you were to take a shit on Take who is terrible at StarCraft, but at the same time creates the best possible LAN tournament for the players in the world and does casting.
His own lack of insite just keeps making his hole a lot wider. I for one, will always skip his stream in the future.
On May 02 2012 09:31 Areon wrote: Complaining about casters giving too little effort? Why not call out names and start picking them apart one-by-one instead of making a brash generalization? While I can agree that there's room for improvement in the casting department, you're kidding yourself if you don't realize the effort it takes not only to be a caster at a major tournament having to talk for hours, but also garner the popularity through whatever means to have the opportunity to be a major caster. You don't have to cast at MLG to know that staying focused to game after game for hours at a time day after day takes its toll. It really is no cakewalk, that shouldn't even have to be explained. Secondly, casters put in a lot of their own time making solo casts and- oh what the hell am I saying this for, I didn't see ClouD's vlog but is Husky one of the primary "problem casters"? Yeah people have and will continue to bash Husky and sometimes for good reason, but really. I find it hard to discuss casters lacking effort without being able to point out any one in particular. Day[9] has put in an unimaginable amount of effort for years. Surely ClouD must know of the Day[9] daily. In fact in terms of effort I can't think of anyone who's done more than Sean Plott. Any other "problem casters" we should have some names for discussion otherwise what's the point? And does it really matter? Pro gamers play the game for money, casters cast games for the money, at the end of the day that's all it's really about.
Because then the vlog would be super long, and ClouD would personally offend way way more people. Not exactly something you want to do.
See this is the problem, now Cloud has come out and said who he thinks are bad casters, now alot of people will take that as gospel and Casters will get an even harder time in chat channels and forums.
I agree, and have said for a long time that most casters do not put in enough effort. No where near enough effort to improve themselves. But to go on a witch hunt and for most people in this thread to just say someone is bad without any constructive feedback is bullshit. To just say "he knows nothing about the game/not as smart as pro players" is a lame excuse in my opinion. The top level players will of course have better insight, but can all of them make a spectacle out of Starcraft? Remember this is a computer game we are talking and a lot, and i mean a lot of top level players are actual social retards who have no personality and/or good communication skills.
To summarise, i agree with the effort part, but i disagree strongly with the whole "Any pro can cast" is bullshit.
Also, Cloud isn't even a top/code s player, so shitting on casters who are not Artosis is fucked up. Comes across as a whinging child who got less sweeties than his older brother. Supply and demand, pretty simple concept.
Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
I'm going to call out Tasteless. Pros have said he doesn't play before, and it's pretty clear that he doesn't. He should work a little harder to be more knowledgeable and a better caste. Anyone on these forums would fight to be able to do what he does, and I feel like he's doing it the easiest and most minimalistic way possible.
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Somewhere through this post I started reading this post to the tune of So you want to be a rap superstar by Cypress Hill, quite the entertaining post.
Regarding the topic, this just seems to be another topic that is going to divide the community with an argument that just really won't end.
I posted to reddit about this kind of agreeing with him and after thinking about it I think some things need to be said. Casters are a precious resource like there are so few good casters so the good ones or the popular ones are paid well because they can make your event.
We are at the expansion stage of SC2, like if you go back to the the early days of football (soccer) casting on radio or early tv its nothing like it is today most of the people casting were not former players but eventually as players retired new casting blood came up from people who loved the game. This made the commentators know a lot more about the game and they could provide great insight. I think the same will happen in SC2 like Grubby and Incontrol they are already kinda shifting that way and they are great amazing casters and personalities.
So my entire point is eventually what cloud said would be voided out by the players who retire and stay to cast and having more casters will purge out the bad.
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Pretty much the vibe I got from the video but I couldn't have put in better words.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
I support Cloud and his views on pretty much everything.
I dont agree however on his "best casters" list.
Regarding the "top duo" Artosis and Tasteless, they are starting to get "old". Artosis is considered the more "analytical" type, however i find that Tasteless on many ocasions shown that he has better insight, at the same time, tough, he looks, sometimes, like he has been tripping balls all night and barely managed to show up on time for the cast, i dont understand whats is going on with him, and it sucks because if he applied himself i think he could become a really sick caster. I also got fed with Artosis and his "artosisms" it looks sometimes like he is living in a different reality. This may sound harsh but i feel that most people understand what im talking about. Rotterdam and others imo arent much better then casters from his "bad list", so i honestly dont get why Cloud pointed them out, there are just too many flaws in their casts.
Like Cloud said, i feel players like Kas, Happy, Beastyqt, etc. dont get the recognition they deserve despite all the effort they put into the game, while other mediocre players get a massive ammount of views and support because they talk shit on their stream. The same thing gets applied to casters, if a caster has interacted with the community and they liked it, he automaticly gets boosted even if he does a crap job.
I think most people would shit bricks if they knew the language and watched the korean or the chinese stream, and despite this they arent treated as celebrities and most likely only count on that one steady paycheck from the network.
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Because of your trolling skills, sometimes is easy to forget how good you are at expressing your opinions. You and Heyoka just summarized my thoughts.
Damn Hot Bid, great post. Seriously, you really summed up my thoughts exactly. Your point on how players need to market themselves better (and their teams too) is something I think incontrol has talked about a bit in the past and is completely correct. More teams need to be like Liquid and EG and actually market their players. Results in any sort of competition never are why players are popular. Yeah winning helps, but you have to be savvy. Look at the most popular athletes in the world. They are far more than just guys that win. They are guys that know how to manage their image and know how to monetize it.
As a player, give me a reason why to watch you. The top casters are entertaining, thats why the masses watch them. Its enjoyable. But when I come on TL and see 5 players of each race streaming, usually around the same skill, you gotta pull me in with something else. You gotta be entertaining. Tell me why you are doing this strat. Kas and DeMuslim are two fantastic players. But when they both stream at the same time, I'm watching DeMuslim because he interacts with his viewers, he explains his thoughts.
I agree the talent of our current caster pool is sub par with most of them half assing their work. Shame that we are basically permanently stuck with what we got. Unlike with the BW pros switching over to raise the skill level of sc2, we will never have such a lucky break when it comes to quality casting.
That sounded like someone who doesn't understand how the world works, like me when I was younger. I love programming, and I'm quite good at it and I'd love to just program all day and then have people recognize me for my programming. But you know what? That doesn't happen
The way you advance yourself in the world is with people skills, getting to know people, making connections, going to dinners, helping others out. It's not just starcraft, it's business in general. There's essentially no one who ever makes an incredibly good living by just being good at something. You can be the smartest person in the world, but unless you have the ability to convince people to work on your project or give you funding, it doesn't matter.
Frankly, it's far easier to just play starcraft or program and just focus on being really good at that than it is to market yourself and make connections. No one cares how hard you work on something, they care about what you produce. If a player like Cloud wants to become more successful money-wise, he has to market himself and become someone like TLO with a fanbase, and there's nothing stopping him from doing that.
I also agree with all of what Hot_bid posted as well.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
[...]
Either this is false or cloud does contradict himself in some sense by doing videoblogs. Because videoblogs are exactly that: fan interaction, marketing. And he does at least a decent job, otherwise this thread would not exist.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
No, they just shouldn't pretend they're barely scrapping a living and doing it just to help people when they get paid more to cast a tournament than a player gets for winning it. (D9 got 40k for casting DH winter)
So much of the video is just him listing things: casters he likes, casters he doesn't like, facts/opinions about them. The point of this is totally lost on me.
On May 02 2012 06:27 Talin wrote: You expect too much from western esports. Historically it's always been a joke, and there's no indication that will ever change - hell, even the people behind it hardly changed and now that they've started making money off of it... no way.
"Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
"Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
Oh, these wonderful generalizations. Ever heard of people like Robert Ohlen or Cengiz Tüylü? No?
Well, the first is the current CEO (since 2006) of the Dreamhack AB, the company that organizes the events with the same name. It started as a small lan of students and is now the worlds biggest gaming festival. One week ago they held a tournament, that had a atmosphere, which gave me and probably thousands of other people nerd chills.
The second one is the founder and CEO of mousesports, a multi gaming organization, that became a cornerstone for professional gaming in Europe. It had and still has several powerful squads in different games, for example the best SC2 team of foreigners. Mouz is around for eleven years now and stands for professionalism and longevity. The personification of this ideology is HasuObs, the team captain of their SC 2 roster, who is with them since 2004 and with that probably the longest standing professional player under a western team.
If the western esports industry is such a joke, how can those people (just two examples for a group of way more people) be around for so long?
The esports industry is definitively a niche branch, but its far from being a joke and constantly growing. The reason for that is that professional gaming is getting slowly more acceptance by the publicity, because the people in charge in the coming years will be persons, who grew up with gaming and gaming in general becomes more casual.
Positive articles in big papers or shows in national TV (Sweden, Germany) and the exploding attendance numbers of fairs like Gamescom are proof of that.
The unfortunate thing is that the players, people who are actually genuinely passionate about and committed to the games they play, end up having the worst of it. But alas, to change it you'd have to change the whole western media culture, even culture in general.
Players, who become top players can definitely make a living from gaming. They will be passionate players, who will be left in the dust.
The hard truth is, that passion alone is not enough. Just like in other sports, they are many passionate people, who want to become professionals, but don´t make it in the long run, because they are not skilled enough.
However, the same applies to team managers, organisations and also casters. If you have not enough skills or don´t work hard enough, you don´t make it.
How many top casters do we have in the scene? People, who cast major events. Maybe ten or fifteen?
The competition between them is just as hard as between players.
IMO most of the most famous casters have earned their spot. The thing is, that game knowledge is just one factor, that can make a successful caster. Some casters shine in this regard, others have great charisma, a awesome voice or great humor, that can bind viewers.
The best combine all these skills.
Its true, that they are casters, who ride the hype right now, but normally those will disappear from the big stage sooner or later. The community more often than not rewards hard work and passion. People like Khaldor or Take are already highly regarded here, because they bring us so much entertainment.
I'll bet anyone anything they want that 5 years from now the only SC2 we'll be watching is Korean leagues (IF it sticks there even), with a bit of amateur leagues on the side, and neither the foreign players nor the casters will be getting any money.
Maybe. It could happen, that SC2 just like BW and WC3 will be replaced by a different RTS-game. The same happens right now in the MOBA-genre with HoN and Dota being replaced by Dota 2. In this case several players, organizations and casters will do something, what happened before in the esports industry. They will adapt and move on. Most of the famous personalities came from former games and mixed with new faces to create a new scene. It will still be esports, because esports is more than just one game. A different thinking is in my opinion ignorant and shortsighted.
The other scenario would be what I call "the counterstrike-effect". A couple of years ago valve published the successor of CS 1.6: CS Source. It had better graphics and animation, but a lot of people in the scene deemed it as worse compared to 1.6. The result was, that the stars of the scene still played 1.6 and it stayed globally superior than Source. Right now, CS 1.6 is after 13 years (pretty much as long as SC 1) slowly fading away from the professional scene, but it had an impressive run.
Nobody knows, what will happen. Only time will tell.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
[...]
Either this is false or cloud does contradict himself in some sense by doing videoblogs. Because videoblogs are exactly that: fan interaction, marketing. And he does at least a decent job, otherwise this thread would not exist.
This is the second time I've heard of Cloud. The first time was when he was casting and was incredibly rude and kept interrupting the other players who were commentating which was quite annoying. He has done very little before this, and I don't think he understands very well how to market himself either based on this video. I haven't seen anyone in the industry come out and say they strongly agree with what Cloud said, and I've seen a number of people come out and say they strongly disagree.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
No, they just shouldn't pretend they're barely scrapping a living and doing it just to help people when they get paid more to cast a tournament than a player gets for winning it. (D9 got 40k for casting DH winter)
sorry to sorta derail the thread here but whats your source for him getting 40k? and is that in USD, SEK or other?
Good points made by Hotbid. But it doesn't really address the fact that we are all paying to watch casters who don't put any effort into preparation or learning the game. To put it simply, if they don't care for the game, then they should not be casting it.
Look at sports commentators, football for example (soccer), the play by play commentator knows every player on the pitch and knows info about him. Why do our commentators not do the same (with some exceptions), most do zero preparation, just turn up and give a basic description of the game without much insight. It's all good that MLG/IPL/GSL are upping there production value, its all becoming more professional, except for the commentary. Tasteless doesn't even read the patch notes for god sake (mules on gold).
If only I could understand Korean and watch the Korean GSL casts. Where they actually give a shit, know the players, know the game and have a real passion in their commentary.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
[...]
Either this is false or cloud does contradict himself in some sense by doing videoblogs. Because videoblogs are exactly that: fan interaction, marketing. And he does at least a decent job, otherwise this thread would not exist.
This is the second time I've heard of Cloud. The first time was when he was casting and was incredibly rude and kept interrupting the other players who were commentating which was quite annoying. He has done very little before this, and I don't think he understands very well how to market himself either based on this video. I haven't seen anyone in the industry come out and say they strongly agree with what Cloud said, and I've seen a number of people come out and say they strongly disagree.
Like every player who commented on this (Darkforce, Naniwa, ToD, PredY, TT1, Harstem - IdrA and incontrol just made points similar to Cloud's on Inside the Game) has said he agrees with the core of what ClouD said and some have hinted that they know a lot of players who have similar opinions. Or ar those not people "in the industry"?
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
No, they just shouldn't pretend they're barely scrapping a living and doing it just to help people when they get paid more to cast a tournament than a player gets for winning it. (D9 got 40k for casting DH winter)
sorry to sorta derail the thread here but whats your source for him getting 40k? and is that in USD, SEK or other?
Brain farted, was 40k for Tastosis and 20k for Day[9].
tbh if it wasn't for day9 i wouldn't have gotten into watching sc2 progaming, and before him if it wasn't for husky / HD I wouldn't really care about sc2 multiplayer at all. I'd say casters draw people in way more than players, ie they deserve the money moreso the players (if that actually even matters /shrug)
there are a lot of casters I don't really care about, there are a lot of players I don't really care about (ie cloud is one of them). the casters and players I do care about idc how much money they make, as long as it keeps the game entertaining to watch then how is it any of my business how much money either makes O_O
On May 02 2012 06:27 Talin wrote: "Esports" is a niche spin-off of the entertainment industry. Every exploitative business model and every trashy media stereotype we can see on television or in any other part of it applies here as well, and the more "popular" it becomes and the more people put money into it, the worse it will get.
The unfortunate thing is that the players, people who are actually genuinely passionate about and committed to the games they play, end up having the worst of it. But alas, to change it you'd have to change the whole western media culture, even culture in general.
This is an interesting perspective. It's pretty easy for me to see how it's somewhat of a culture clash. I'm not a really involved Brood War follower, but I can count on two hands the number of times I've seen Korean players do something "wacky" or risqué as a bid for attention in the 'entertainment industry' of esports. In western (especially north american) SC2, it seems like it's almost the opposite - people are confident in distancing themselves from "those guys who practice 12 hours a day" while they say childish things on stream, bandwagon people on twitter, sell t-shirts and any number of other things that aren't "playing Starcraft II". When's the last time you heard Nestea tell the audience how they can buy into his brand on twitter, facebook and youtube? He just goes on stage and kills nerds. Naniwa, a European, does his utmost to take on the 'Korean training style' and attitude (including apologizing for/reflecting on his 7 probe rush), and people say he's "a sociopath". It's like he's expected to behave differently because he's from a country that the prevailing culture says is "not as dedicated as Korea".
I think ClouD picked a bit of a poor way to explain it, but I see where his mindset matches up with this. As a player who works hard, you want to see players who work hard get attention. More than that, you want to see players who work hard and do well get attention. You don't want to see anyone become a figurehead for SC2 when they can't tell you how many baneling hits kills a baneling, or admonish players for not buying adrenal glands when they have 30 zerglings and 118 gas. For some people, the simple practical relationships with SC2 are more important than "growing a brand" or "being a media personality" or whatever other phrase is hot this week.
As a really bad player who watches a lot of tournaments, I'm absolutely sick to death of players who are happy with their only accomplishments being retweets and t-shirt sales. I won't name them because that would be rude!
People like to rag on the fighting game community, but everything they're passionate about is related to players and how they play the game. Their "top casters" are knowledgeable about the games like Artosis, but they're not cult figures. They're "just casters." Any time a bit of fake emotion or contrived drama trickles into a fighting game stream, the audience in chat calls it 'esports' - this is the term they use to categorize the empty husk of the game that is created by the 'entertainment industry' approach. Check it out and be sure to research the backstory!
I think comparing players to casters isn't a good comparison. But at the same time I agree that we generally have sub par casters. The problem is that people look for different things in casting. I like people who explain things anyone could understand even though I have a fairly high level of understanding of the game myself. I also like casters who can build up the tension leading to major game moments and don't prematurely call out who will win or when the game is probably over.
Skilled players like Cloud probably tend to want more in-depth analysis than the vast majority of people watching major tournaments. Grubby seems to be the kind of caster who can please a lot of different people. He is a great caster.
I think part of the issue is that the game is still pretty new. As time goes on, people will have their voices heard and the most popular casters will get the jobs, even if it's people guys like Cloud don't particularly like.
When Cloud is GM in all three races, then I'll listen to something he has to say. More so when he calls out someone who IS GM in all three, and provides the most dumbed down and high level analysis of any caster.
I think Cloud is unneccessarily abrasive towards casters he does not like. People present the game in different ways, and they wont always be to your liking. I think him calling Day9 a bad caster is a bit out of line, especially since his point is that the casters he is criticizing are not making an effort to get better. Day9 spends a substantial amount of time per day playing or doing the daily which is constant practice for high level analysis. (except perhaps on Mondays). However, I agree that some casters are not suited for the job that they get. Overall, I think that not all casting can be catered to the grandmaster or incredibly skilled players. Lower level players and just minor fans of the game want to watch as well, and such heavy insight into the game and over analysis is not condusive to their viewing experience. Sure, I would love to see some very intelligent player/casters (like Grubby) start casting more, but the commentary of someone more exciting (like Day9) is just plain BETTER for a lot of people that watch.
I noticed alot of people in the thread stating stuff regarding the ability of players/casters to "sell" their image.
This reminds me of those situation were politician A has good ideias, but poitician B goes out on the streets shaking hands and kissing babies on the head, thus obviously politican B wins because he obviously cares more.
Its not the job of players / casters to do marketing.
Most of these "known" players/casters would never make it in the "real" word, only online with the backup of various places + Show Spoiler +
, so if you really want the industry to grow, you need to bet on higher quality events, with high quality players and hight quality casting, and this is achieved by supporting the hard workers and give them a reason to go that extra mile.
On May 02 2012 10:32 NobledBlood wrote: When Cloud is GM in all three races, then I'll listen to something he has to say. More so when he calls out someone who IS GM in all three, and provides the most dumbed down and high level analysis of any caster.
Do you actually believe Day[9] is GM with all three races at the moment or is this a joke?
On May 02 2012 10:32 NobledBlood wrote: When Cloud is GM in all three races, then I'll listen to something he has to say. More so when he calls out someone who IS GM in all three, and provides the most dumbed down and high level analysis of any caster.
Do you actually believe Day[9] is GM with all three races at the moment or is this a joke?
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
There are a few things to be taken from this, obviously one is greatly defined by HotBid, and the other is the community standard.
Obviously, as a community, the standard of casting isn't ideal...yet. However, having that push should help to motivate the casters to focus more on the areas of concern, while finding their niche.
But as far as I see it, because we're able to interact with each other so freely, the quality of the whole scene should always be improving. It starts with the game, and Blizzard making a product that we can get behind, then the players, and the matches they show, and finally the medium, our casters, and how they portray their thoughts to everyone. We're able to speak our mind directly to the source on all of these fronts, so our voices are heard, and that's what we need to be a little more cautious about.
While I do agree with some of the criticism, I know that even some of the lesser liked casters are working their asses off to try and follow their dream. Now I may be wrong, and maybe some are just riding the coat tails, but it's beginning to look as if the suggestions people are giving to the casters are becoming more and more hurtful, and we're better than that...
On May 02 2012 10:32 NobledBlood wrote: When Cloud is GM in all three races, then I'll listen to something he has to say. More so when he calls out someone who IS GM in all three, and provides the most dumbed down and high level analysis of any caster.
Do you actually believe Day[9] is GM with all three races at the moment or is this a joke?
He said he is so it must be true.
He said in the past he has been GM as all three races but at present he would not consider himself a GM player.
The casters are more important than the players, when those streams are running you have no idea who the players are because it's a video game, it is not like sports in that way. All you see is the starcraft screen and hear the casters voice so there is no real connection with the players at all whereas there is with the casters, it might as well be any two people playing a lot of the time
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
[...]
Either this is false or cloud does contradict himself in some sense by doing videoblogs. Because videoblogs are exactly that: fan interaction, marketing. And he does at least a decent job, otherwise this thread would not exist.
I believe this is episode #1 of Cloud's vlog. We'll see how long he keeps it up. In all honesty, if he does keep it up week after week, he'll gain a following because he'll be doing what he needs to do to get his name out there. He'll finally be putting in the work that he doesn't recognize as work and finally he'll get the rewards for it. Maybe he'll feel like a sell-out for doing it, but that's the reality of this world.
Or maybe he does 1-3 more vlogs and gives up. It'd just go to show that doing what all these community personalities do isn't easy. They put in a totally different kind of effort as Hot_Bid so eloquently said, and they're getting rewarded for doing it.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
I agree about 1000000%. Seriously, people who bring in the most viewers and stuff for a SPECTATOR sport should PROBABLY be getting a good chunk of the money.
Day9 deserves all the attention he's getting because of his intense effort to make this game available to lower level players as well as entertaining the the rest of the community.
I don't know so much about other casters, but I do think SOME of them get a little too much credit (yes HD I'm talking to you).
On May 02 2012 10:06 Ender2701 wrote: The way you advance yourself in the world is with people skills, getting to know people, making connections, going to dinners, helping others out. It's not just starcraft, it's business in general. There's essentially no one who ever makes an incredibly good living by just being good at something.
Sorry buddy but you still don't understand how the world works if you think this is true, especially as a programmer. I work in the field and if I know some guy can finish a project in 2 weeks and do a great job - I'm going to hire him over another guy who takes 3 months, I don't care how personable they are. And when you work in the industry, your work speaks for itself.
This same philosophy applies to most industries. If you're sick - do you give a shit that your doctor's a nice guy? You seem to be blending professions here thinking that business skills are required for other professions. Saying you need to be a well connected socialite to be a good and highly paid programmer is like saying that you need to be a great electrician in order to be a highly skilled and paid chef.
im kinda curious how we are even getting the figure for day9s earnings. incontrol 'said' day9 got 20k for dreamhack but how would he know? a rumour of a rumour? and this doesnt mean other events pay casters as well. it just seems like we are all arguing about this and yet no caster has weighed in and said 'this is what i made'.
huk isnt even the best paid player. sure he has the highest salary but i would be willing to bet that combined salary + winnings MC is by far the biggest earner in sc2 so far.
On May 02 2012 11:39 achristes wrote: Day9 deserves all the attention he's getting because of his intense effort to make this game available to lower level players as well as entertaining the the rest of the community.
I don't know so much about other casters, but I do think SOME of them get a little too much credit (yes HD I'm talking to you).
while i agree with this, i think what is 'actually' pissing people off, but they havent really stated is that some people feel betrayed by how day9 has moved himself in the scene. back at launch he was doing 'every' event, his daily and sotg. he was pretty much the heart of the scene.
fast forward to now and the perception is that day just does his own stuff. hes barely on sotg, and when he is its for 45 mins. he spends 90% of his time preparing for his own stuff like AHGL and nvidia pro/am while appearing at less 'mainstream' events. concentrating on brand day9 rather than brand starcraft. by making himself less available he probably increases his appearance fee, as leagues need to compete to get him, while still making consistent money by doing his own thing.
now im not saying this is right or wrong for him to focus on himself or whatever but i can empathise with people who are a little peeved that day9 appears to be making the big bucks by being so tactile about how he markets himself rather than doing what he does for ESPORTS.
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Agree with first paragraph that there are limited spots for being a caster.So its more or less equally hard being a player or a caster. But don't discount the fact that former or current players could do a better job than casters with little or no playing experience in a competitive level. There is a higher 'potential 'threshold for the prior.
The only thing 'true' in the second paragraph is the difference between potential and realizing potential where the latter is often more difficult than the prior.
The rest about marketing yourself is really 'illegitimate'. A player should only focus doing what he should be doing to maximize his ability and nothing else to be able to truly be the best at what he or she does. Anything other should not be in the players workload or time as that would hinder his progress in achieving his or her goals. Cloud has a point here and i agree with him. The problem is that the profession is not paid enough to actually employ an agent to do the marketing work in lieu. Or the industry mature or lucrative enough for other industries to sponsor marketing activities on behalf of players. I'm sure Kobe doesn't need to promote himself as much as TLO does to sustain their fanbases.
The offhand remark regarding TLO is unwarranted but it has its point. TLO should just cut down his self-promotion activities and spend more of that time into his core goal which is winning tournaments or maybe improving himself. In the end if the goal is not to be the best programmer then self-promotion as a core or subgoal can be justified.
I guess Cloud's main qualm is that there are alot of undeserving casters in the present scene and they should really work harder to improve themselves to justify the amount of recognition and remuneration they are currently receiving. The issue here could be slack.
Worrying side concern is that e-sports could end up being American Idol where the singers aren't really the stars of the show.
On May 02 2012 11:43 iNcontroL wrote: yep you know me.. stating facts from rumours I hear lol
thats not what im saying at all. you would be the first guy to question where info came from if its private information not coming from the primary source. i wouldnt have day9 down as a guy who says LOOK HOW MUCH I GET PAID so it seems like a fair question.
On May 02 2012 11:43 iNcontroL wrote: yep you know me.. stating facts from rumours I hear lol
Did Dreamhack pay him 20k, or did he make 20k because he hosted the stream and got all add revenue? Maybe both combined?
I don't believe he earned 20K for a second. Have you seen the room he lives in? That must just be his choice but I highly doubt someone whose earning a good load of money every time he does something like this would still be living in a shared apartment.
If he did get paid that much then he probably had to pay for his own plain tickets/accommodation.
Cloud isn't even an extremely talented player, he's good for non-korean standards but he doesn't really have a name for himself like other non-koreans do. If he wants to voice his opinion then who are we to stop him? I bet he doesn't think about how many casters receive hate just because that's the kind of job they're in.
This got bigger than I expected. Even though I might have felt a bit bitter in the video than I actually am I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do. It's ok to do everything you can to get fans and recognition but I am also disgusted at the amount of bs I hear in foreign tournaments whenever I decide to listen to the live casting. When I met Naniwa last time in Dreamhack he told me to watch korean casts with subtitles and then I understood the quality difference between our casters and the korean ones. I am by no means one of the best foreign progamers and honestly I am very disappointed by myself as a progamer right now. And, unlike some people seemed to understand, I don't want more money than I get and I am not jealous of the money some casters make. I just want to have the best possible life experience I can get out of being a professional starcraft player. My main point in this video is just that I believe that several casters get away with not understanding the game not nearly as well as they should and because of this they get (in my opinion) undeserved recognition even though they don't do their job properly. On the other hand I see so many top players struggling to get any recognition at all. What I would like to see is just the very top casters to try harder to give a better show in big tournaments. So many times it feels some of them just don't care enough even tough they are most likely the most important part of the whole thing. When I spoke to Artosis at WCG Korea last time he told me he still dreams to be a progamer and he will keep trying to do so. I was so amazed by this. I am not saying casters should try to be as good as progamers but that's the spirit you need to have in order to do a great job. As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose. I will keep doing vlogs where I speak my mind and honest feelings on many esports and sc2 subjects every week. Since I've been inside the pro scene for so long I think I have a lot of interesting things to say. This video was made at night in a rush so it was mostly just a spoken train of thoughts. The next ones will have a better structure and will be more elaborated for sure. And Kev and Ben, sorry for not thinking about you right away, I felt so bad when I realized it right after the video but I was really tired and there was no time for making a new one. I sincerely believe you both have amazing passion for Starcraft and I respect how you both work hard to get better at what you do. There should really be more professional casters like you guys. Keep up the good job, it's so much better to watch NASL now that you guys are working there.
On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote: This got bigger than I expected. Even though I might have felt a bit bitter in the video than I actually am I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do. It's ok to do everything you can to get fans and recognition but I am also disgusted at the amount of bs I hear in foreign tournaments whenever I decide to listen to the live casting. When I met Naniwa last time in Dreamhack he told me to watch korean casts with subtitles and then I understood the quality difference between our casters and the korean ones. I am by no means one of the best foreign progamers and honestly I am very disappointed by myself as a progamer right now. And, unlike some people seemed to understand, I don't want more money than I get and I am not jealous of the money some casters make. I just want to have the best possible life experience I can get out of being a professional starcraft player. My main point in this video is just that I believe that several casters get away with not understanding the game not nearly as well as they should and because of this they get (in my opinion) undeserved recognition even though they don't do their job properly. On the other hand I see so many top players struggling to get any recognition at all. What I would like to see is just the very top casters to try harder to give a better show in big tournaments. So many times it feels some of them just don't care enough even tough they are most likely the most important part of the whole thing. When I spoke to Artosis at WCG Korea last time he told me he still dreams to be a progamer and he will keep trying to do so. I was so amazed by this. I am not saying casters should try to be as good as progamers but that's the spirit you need to have in order to do a great job. As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose. I will keep doing vlogs where I speak my mind and honest feelings on many esports and sc2 subjects every week. Since I've been inside the pro scene for so long I think I have a lot of interesting things to say. This video was made at night in a rush so it was mostly just a spoken train of thoughts. The next ones will have a better structure and will be more elaborated for sure. And Kev and Ben, sorry for not thinking about you right away, I felt so bad when I realized it right after the video but I was really tired and there was no time for making a new one. I sincerely believe you both have amazing passion for Starcraft and I respect how you both work hard to get better at what you do. There should really be more professional casters like you guys. Keep up the good job, it's so much better to watch NASL now that you guys are working there.
Well said. I hope you keep speaking your mind. Honestly, this community need more threads/blogs like this. I think its pretty healthy to discuss the subjects you bring on the table.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
Casting should always be a supporting role and not the main role. A supporting role should not be drawing the majority of the crowd as it would end up being American Idol.
If all things equal the main role should be making the big bucks otherwise it would not justify itself. If the supporting is making more money than the main then the roles should be inversed.
A sports contract should be higher than a commentators contract all things being equal.
Another problem with players being paid good money, is that very few non-koreans are posting consistent results. Stephano, Huk, Naniwa and maybe Thorzain?
If Koreans had actual sponsors interested in them we would probably see bigger salaries, and I suppose that is fairly likely to happen post-SC2/BW scene merge.
On May 02 2012 11:40 turdburgler wrote: im kinda curious how we are even getting the figure for day9s earnings. incontrol 'said' day9 got 20k for dreamhack but how would he know? a rumour of a rumour? and this doesnt mean other events pay casters as well. it just seems like we are all arguing about this and yet no caster has weighed in and said 'this is what i made'.
huk isnt even the best paid player. sure he has the highest salary but i would be willing to bet that combined salary + winnings MC is by far the biggest earner in sc2 so far.
On May 02 2012 11:39 achristes wrote: Day9 deserves all the attention he's getting because of his intense effort to make this game available to lower level players as well as entertaining the the rest of the community.
I don't know so much about other casters, but I do think SOME of them get a little too much credit (yes HD I'm talking to you).
while i agree with this, i think what is 'actually' pissing people off, but they havent really stated is that some people feel betrayed by how day9 has moved himself in the scene. back at launch he was doing 'every' event, his daily and sotg. he was pretty much the heart of the scene.
fast forward to now and the perception is that day just does his own stuff. hes barely on sotg, and when he is its for 45 mins. he spends 90% of his time preparing for his own stuff like AHGL and nvidia pro/am while appearing at less 'mainstream' events. concentrating on brand day9 rather than brand starcraft. by making himself less available he probably increases his appearance fee, as leagues need to compete to get him, while still making consistent money by doing his own thing.
now im not saying this is right or wrong for him to focus on himself or whatever but i can empathise with people who are a little peeved that day9 appears to be making the big bucks by being so tactile about how he markets himself rather than doing what he does for ESPORTS.
You should never count something as uncertain as prize money when considering if someone is paid well.... Prize money comes and goes, it is nowhere near a certainty.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
As you said, it's not a problem that he makes a lot of money given his popularity, the problem is that he's so much mroe popular than players, which probably can only be solved with time/stability, since player performances fluctuate too much now.... That, and Koreans actually being paid their worth.
While i completely agree with some of Cloud's points like:
I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.
I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.
It'll happen one day though Chinro! We just gotta dream big XD
Cloud. Everyone has different opinions on casters and not all of them even focus on an analytical style. Some of them say stupid stuff at times but at the end of the day when push comes to shove they'll hopefully be swept under the carpet if they don't improve. It doesn't help your position that the TLO situation makes you sound like an ass tbh. Even one Bo11 does not make for a solid ground of saying someone is a bad player.
I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.
I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.
Day 9 plays sc2, he does a daily on the show to help improve. It's why he is so popular, he has a lot of knowledge, not like he has no knowledge of the game or anything.
Very well said. I enjoyed reading your post and I completely agree with your opinions, as well as ClouD's. I also agreed with your opinion on InControL, I have a lot of respect for the way he handles his popularity. Thanks for posting
Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.
However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.
Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.
On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote: This got bigger than I expected. Even though ... + Show Spoiler +
I might have felt a bit bitter in the video than I actually am I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do. It's ok to do everything you can to get fans and recognition but I am also disgusted at the amount of bs I hear in foreign tournaments whenever I decide to listen to the live casting. When I met Naniwa last time in Dreamhack he told me to watch korean casts with subtitles and then I understood the quality difference between our casters and the korean ones. I am by no means one of the best foreign progamers and honestly I am very disappointed by myself as a progamer right now. And, unlike some people seemed to understand, I don't want more money than I get and I am not jealous of the money some casters make. I just want to have the best possible life experience I can get out of being a professional starcraft player. My main point in this video is just that I believe that several casters get away with not understanding the game not nearly as well as they should and because of this they get (in my opinion) undeserved recognition even though they don't do their job properly. On the other hand I see so many top players struggling to get any recognition at all. What I would like to see is just the very top casters to try harder to give a better show in big tournaments. So many times it feels some of them just don't care enough even tough they are most likely the most important part of the whole thing. When I spoke to Artosis at WCG Korea last time he told me he still dreams to be a progamer and he will keep trying to do so. I was so amazed by this. I am not saying casters should try to be as good as progamers but that's the spirit you need to have in order to do a great job. As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose. I will keep doing vlogs where I speak my mind and honest feelings on many esports and sc2 subjects every week. Since I've been inside the pro scene for so long I think I have a lot of interesting things to say. This video was made at night in a rush so it was mostly just a spoken train of thoughts. The next ones will have a better structure and will be more elaborated for sure. And Kev and Ben, sorry for not thinking about you right away, I felt so bad when I realized it right after the video but I was really tired and there was no time for making a new one. I sincerely believe you both have amazing passion for Starcraft and I respect how you both work hard to get better at what you do. There should really be more professional casters like you guys. Keep up the good job, it's so much better to watch NASL now that you guys are working there.
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
While I don't agree with much of what Cloud says, I believe he does have a point in that the standards of quality of casters is much lower than the standard quality of players. Many of the famous casters right now just aren't really that great of casters, but they still are considered the top casters. Tyler brought up something similar to this on State of the Game and I agreed with it then too. Most every caster right now either has a good speaking voice, or provides good analysis of the game. Very few to none have both. But I believe there are people that can do both of these(this is speculation I don't have any real specific people to point out), but they are not popular simply because popular casters remain popular which doesn't allow for many new casters to rise. This is contrasted with the generally extremely high standard quality of player that is required to be a popular player, which I believe is the source of Cloud's frustration.
On May 02 2012 12:08 Jarree wrote: While i completely agree with some of Cloud's points like:
I still believe many casters who cast for major tournaments just don't give a shit about improving their game knowledge and would rather try to raise their popularity in different ways rather than actually trying to be better at the job they are supposed to do.
I have no idea why people think Day9 and Tasteless e.g. are gods. But that is the situation. It's supply&demand. They are worth every penny they are paid.
Day 9 plays sc2, he does a daily on the show to help improve. It's why he is so popular, he has a lot of knowledge, not like he has no knowledge of the game or anything.
Yes but that's just the thing. He does other stuff and has managed to make himself a brand. So people love his casting no matter the real quality of it. If you listen to his casting it consists mostly of overanalyzing and yelling "OH NO". I understand some people can like that too, but when i ask "why is he considered god", you start with "he plays sc2" Not really a godlike feature.
To me it's the same as paying Al Gore/Bill Clinton/whoever 500k to do a speech where he just says random jargon stuff that does not really have any meaning. But if there's a market for it, do it.
By the way, now TLO should totally challenge Cloud on a showmatch for beard points.
edit: Oh, just saw this, nice:
On May 02 2012 11:56 aTnClouD wrote: As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose.
I agree wholeheartedly, but I think part of the problem is that most of the people who are really talented people who explore the nuanced facets of the game are the same people who are likely to succeed as semi pro/pro players. This talent is "sucked away" from people who could be casting.
There's also just kind of a high barrier to entry in casting; tournament organizers would rather go with what they know than try out somebody new, and I definitely can't blame them. I mean a lot of it has to do with just the caster's speaking skill and professionalism rather than their capacity to provide meaningful analysis or commentary; some unknown guy on youtube might have really good insights but he has to have a huge following and have some experience casting live events before any of the major tournaments could be expected to give him a shot. A relatively small % of MLG viewers could actually differentiate quality analysis vs obvious bullshit.
It makes perfect sense when you think about it; the casters are there for the lay-person primarily, not for the people who actually play the game at a reasonably high level and demand more detailed analysis. With that in mind, if you were a tournament organizer, who would you rather hire? Somebody with a lot of fame and following who provides really basic and obvious commentary, or somebody with no following who actually knows the game well? Most of your audience won't really understand or give a shit about a lot of caster #2's analysis, and caster #1 has name recognition and appeals to a really wide audience. Its a popularity contest, and the things that win it are primarily just being accessible, professional, and charismatic. When you get a caster who is all of those things but also knows the game really well and is good and communicating abstract ideas and concepts about starcraft 2, you get Artosis.
Its a problem, but it's not like there's a real solution for it. Not really worth worrying about.
I chuckle everytime something like this comes up although I do see why this can be a serious point of contention.
The issues here still remains that SC2 is at a stage in its life where it requires more than just players to sustain and grow the audience numbers. The whole eSport thing is still really young outside of Korea and frankly, there are only a handful of foreigner players that can really draw a huge crowd on their own. If you don't have the personalities to draw a huge audience, eSports organisations won't have the revenue to keep putting up events, companies won't want to sponsor because there won't be as many people watching and the potential for growth will be lackadaisical.
BUT
That situation is slowly improving. We see players like Stephano, Thorzain, Idra etc who are able to bring in the numbers on their own. That's great - but let's not forget for a second that a large number of that audience that are watching these guys would have at some point been exposed to these players in the first place through casters like Day9, Husky and so on. I believe the salary/"effort" debate will eventually level off as we see players start to perform more consistently in tournaments and casters start to get dropped/swapped around when the demand for high level analysis is there.
On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote: Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.
However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.
Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.
IMO Tasteless is really bad. His cast is awfully repetitive and it somewhat feels very structured. He would thank the sponsors, occasionally gives valid and good insights, and hype the game up with saying how excited and eager and great the matches are going to be. He cycles them over and over again. The only thing worth to note is that he goes well with Dan and Dan goes well with him.
Other than that and is prior experience I don't see why he should remain in his current position as one of the prime casters.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
Chriiiiiiiiiiist that's not even what I said!
I have no problem with him making "a shitton of money", it's just, as IdrA said, he shouldn't pretend he's scraping by on minimum wage.
There are few English speaker casters that can make a big event (like MLG, IPL, and so on) worth watching. Without those casters those event's wouldn't get off the ground. This, on the other hand, doesn't hold for players. If you can't have MKP, DRG, Nestea, and Thorzain, you could still get MMA, Bomber, Parting and Huk. And if you can't get those you could probably get Naniwa, Leenok, aLive, and so on. On the other hand, if you can't get a handle on most of the casters in the small group of good casters...you are fucked...It seems then that each individual caster is more valuable to a big event than each individual player (good casters are not easily replaceable as good players are). This explains very well the disparity in salaries..and it's not the casters fault...
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
I agree with you in some aspects, though Cloud does have some very valid points. While it is important for progamers to put out additional fan interaction media and market themselves, there still needs to be a balance between self-promotion and personality and results, with the primary emphasis on results. Through successful self-promotion, a pro-gamer can give himself better job security, as he knows that he will still have that fanbase even if he goes through a rough patch. I think that is good, in moderation. But ultimately progamers need to show results because this is a competitive sport and not some popularity contest.
The last thing we do want, however, is progamers looking at self-promotion as an easy way to success. I don't want to see progamers put more value on appearing on a talk show like SOTG, ITG, GD Studio, etc, than doing well at a tournament.
On May 02 2012 12:29 Drowsy wrote: I agree wholeheartedly, but I think part of the problem is that most of the people who are really talented people who explore the nuanced facets of the game are the same people who are likely to succeed as semi pro/pro players. This talent is "sucked away" from people who could be casting.
There's also just kind of a high barrier to entry in casting; tournament organizers would rather go with what they know than try out somebody new, and I definitely can't blame them. I mean a lot of it has to do with just the caster's speaking skill and professionalism rather than their capacity to provide meaningful analysis or commentary; some unknown guy on youtube might have really good insights but he has to have a huge following and have some experience casting live events before any of the major tournaments could be expected to give him a shot. A relatively small % of MLG viewers could actually differentiate quality analysis vs obvious bullshit.
It makes perfect sense when you think about it; the casters are there for the lay-person primarily, not for the people who actually play the game at a reasonably high level and demand more detailed analysis. With that in mind, if you were a tournament organizer, who would you rather hire? Somebody with a lot of fame and following who provides really basic and obvious commentary, or somebody with no following who actually knows the game well? Most of your audience won't really understand or give a shit about a lot of caster #2's analysis, and caster #1 has name recognition and appeals to a really wide audience. Its a popularity contest, and the things that win it are primarily just being accessible, professional, and charismatic. When you get a caster who is all of those things but also knows the game really well and is good and communicating abstract ideas and concepts about starcraft 2, you get Artosis.
Its a problem, but it's not like there's a real solution for it. Not really worth worrying about.
Yea tournament organizers prefer working experience and I think most of these sub-par casters are only there because they have prior experience. You won't want a caster who would just suddenly go 'blackout' on a live event. Tournament organizers pay for reliability rather than actual quality. And actual quality is really scarce as it requires a combination of skills, knowlegde, and experience. What would you look for if you were an organizer?
On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote: Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.
However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.
Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.
IMO Tasteless is really bad. His cast is awfully repetitive and it somewhat feels very structured. He would thank the sponsors, occasionally gives valid and good insights, and hype the game up with saying how excited and eager and great the matches are going to be. He cycles them over and over again. The only thing worth to note is that he goes well with Dan and Dan goes well with him.
Other than that and is prior experience I don't see why he should remain in his current position as one of the prime casters.
The thing about Tasteless is he's more than capable of being analytical and producing 'new' ideas the way Artosis does. If you don't believe me, watch the GOM broodwar casts with him as the lead caster, alongside Superdanielman, LilSusie etc.
It's very obvious from watching the GSL that they push Tasteless to be the 'colour commentator' role, and he accepts that because he's good at it and likes doing it. He has his moments being analytical and showing off his game knowledge, but it's not his place the way it is for Artosis. One thing that comes to mind is a recent code A game where Tasteless guessed at a DT opener from a protoss player (for all the right reasons - simcity, timings of gas, etc etc) while Artosis was blindly calling it a blink build. There's even a tastosis in-joke for this: whenever Tasteless steps out of his assigned role to call something that Artosis hadn't thought of, Artosis goes out of his way to remark "That was a really smart thing you said. You're a smart person, Tasteless." They're both aware of how things go and they make it work.
Both of them are very capable of analyzing the game at a high level, but it seems to me like the show is structured in such a way that Artosis does more of that, and I don't see a problem. Another thing about Tasteless is he rarely (if ever) says something blatantly wrong, without correcting himself. I can't say the same of any caster outside of Korea. You'll notice Tasteless doesn't claim to have X grandmaster accounts, either - he could be in platinum or grandmaster, but he doesn't talk about it because it's not a big deal to him. Better to say nothing than something foolish, right?
As for why Tasteless has his job (or should have it), it's because he's a total badass and is living every nerd's dream because he's good at being a Starcraft commentator.
I agree with the "faking emotions" part.. It's pretty obvious that some of them don't have a passion for the game and just do it for the money. The lack of devotion is so obvious and I really believe that the only reason why they are still able to cast is because of their ability to use phrases in a catchy way (aka producing hype). Personally I just mute those casters and watch the game without commentary. And I'm not talking about having super high game knowledge. For example Djwheat, whom I really like, is not even close to masters but you can really tell that he's into gaming and loves what he's doing. The guy even streams ladder games after long casting sessions, even if he'll just get 500 viewers.
Also, I really really wish more players switched to casting but I doubt that will ever happen for obvious reasons (risk of failing both as a player and caster, language issues, tough to stand out among the giants, etc.).
On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote: Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.
However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.
Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.
IMO Tasteless is really bad. His cast is awfully repetitive and it somewhat feels very structured. He would thank the sponsors, occasionally gives valid and good insights, and hype the game up with saying how excited and eager and great the matches are going to be. He cycles them over and over again. The only thing worth to note is that he goes well with Dan and Dan goes well with him.
Other than that and is prior experience I don't see why he should remain in his current position as one of the prime casters.
The thing about Tasteless is he's more than capable of being analytical and producing 'new' ideas the way Artosis does. If you don't believe me, watch the GOM broodwar casts with him as the lead caster, alongside Superdanielman, LilSusie etc.
It's very obvious from watching the GSL that they push Tasteless to be the 'colour commentator' role, and he accepts that because he's good at it and likes doing it. He has his moments being analytical and showing off his game knowledge, but it's not his place the way it is for Artosis. One thing that comes to mind is a recent code A game where Tasteless guessed at a DT opener from a protoss player (for all the right reasons - simcity, timings of gas, etc etc) while Artosis was blindly calling it a blink build. There's even a tastosis in-joke for this: whenever Tasteless steps out of his assigned role to call something that Artosis hadn't thought of, Artosis goes out of his way to remark "That was a really smart thing you said. You're a smart person, Tasteless." They're both aware of how things go and they make it work.
Both of them are very capable of analyzing the game at a high level, but it seems to me like the show is structured in such a way that Artosis does more of that, and I don't see a problem. Another thing about Tasteless is he rarely (if ever) says something blatantly wrong, without correcting himself. I can't say the same of any caster outside of Korea. You'll notice Tasteless doesn't claim to have X grandmaster accounts, either - he could be in platinum or grandmaster, but he doesn't talk about it because it's not a big deal to him. Better to say nothing than something foolish, right?
As for why Tasteless has his job (or should have it), it's because he's a total badass and is living every nerd's dream because he's good at being a Starcraft commentator.
I'd just like to point out that top players could easily make $40-50/hr just streaming with ads if they wanted to. If it's money you want, there's your answer.
On May 02 2012 12:55 faction123 wrote: I'd just like to point out that top players could easily make $40-50/hr just streaming with ads if they wanted to. If it's money you want, there's your answer.
I doubt that if they did that on a regular basis they would still be top players after a couple of months .
On May 02 2012 12:53 kyriores wrote: I agree with the "faking emotions" part.. It's pretty obvious that some of them don't have a passion for the game and just do it for the money. The lack of devotion is so obvious and I really believe that the only reason why they are still able to cast is because of their ability to use phrases in a catchy way (aka producing hype). Personally I just mute those casters and watch the game without commentary. And I'm not talking about having super high game knowledge. For example Djwheat, whom I really like, is not even close to masters but you can really tell that he's into gaming and loves what he's doing. The guy even streams ladder games after long casting sessions, even if he'll just get 500 viewers.
Also, I really really wish more players switched to casting but I doubt that will ever happen for obvious reasons (risk of failing both as a player and caster, language issues, etc.).
DJ Wheat has Unquestionable Passion for the game but IMO he lacks in-game knowledge. Most of the time I don't really get his gigs. But its understandable i guess with his other commitments. Not easy to juggle between IRL commitments and your sole passion.
It's so sad that a player like Cloud would use his position as a player to call out casters like this. Casters are the conduit through which pro-level SC2 games get out to the public. They are vital to the continued existence of SC2 as an eSport and the ability for Cloud to even be paid to play this game.
Unfortunately this myopic view is common when someone has such a narrow perspective.
I just want to say this. I went to MLG Columbus this year with a couple friends, and we all had a great time. The entire weekend was filled with Starcraft, and it was my most memorable time this year by far. On Sunday after the event, a group of viewers stayed behind to meet players/casters/personalities who might show up and do things like autographs. From my memory the only people who stayed behind to meet fans were the following: Grubby, DJWheat, and Day[9]. Day[9] obviously attracted the biggest following and said something along the lines of "Don't worry about not seeing me, I will stay until every one of you gets an autograph" and he did. Again, the only player who stayed behind was Grubby (from my memory, which could be way off. It was 1-2 other players at most). Maybe the reason the casters gain so much popularity is because they actually care about their fans, rather than feel entitled to fans just because they are good at the game.
On May 02 2012 12:55 faction123 wrote: I'd just like to point out that top players could easily make $40-50/hr just streaming with ads if they wanted to. If it's money you want, there's your answer.
Stream revenue is much more dependant on your established fanbase and your nationality than it is on your skill level, and very few streamers make that much money. Lots of Code S/Code A players don't get a tenth the viewers that IdrA does. Look at the viewer count right now. ForGG - 380, IdrA - 4750.
On May 02 2012 13:00 oniman999 wrote: I just want to say this. I went to MLG Columbus this year with a couple friends, and we all had a great time. The entire weekend was filled with Starcraft, and it was my most memorable time this year by far. On Sunday after the event, a group of viewers stayed behind to meet players/casters/personalities who might show up and do things like autographs. From my memory the only people who stayed behind to meet fans were the following: Grubby, DJWheat, and Day[9]. Day[9] obviously attracted the biggest following and said something along the lines of "Don't worry about not seeing me, I will stay until every one of you gets an autograph" and he did. Again, the only player who stayed behind was Grubby (from my memory, which could be way off. At the very least, it was 1-2 other players at most). Maybe the reason the casters gain so much popularity is because they actually care about their fans, rather than feel entitled to fans just because they are good at the game.
How many of the players from the event do you think were already back to practicing, or on planes flying home to practice? Not everybody can be a personality, and sometimes in order to stay relevant the more basic tasks come first. That's part of what ClouD's gripe is - casters stay relevant seemingly forever, without continuing to follow the game, because people like them for other reasons that are superficial to "competitive Starcraft II"
It's easy to see the possible trickle-down effect that the actual competition of the game becomes watered-down or de-emphasized in the fact of more marketable things (rivalries, nationalities i.e. "the foreigner hope", endlessly repeating things people said 8 months ago "Idra feels that this matchup is imbalanced" and so on)
As others have said supply and demand. Professional athletes make tons of money because billionaire owners pay them that much because in the end it means more profit.
Right now the "Good Caster" pool is small so to legitimize your tournament you need not only players but casters. There alot of players that will draw viewers there is a smaller amount of casters that will draw.
Pretty easy to understand why the situation is like this. It's not the players fault, not the casters fault, it's all on the tournament organizers/sponsors.
If organizers feel day9 > cloud then that is their prerogative and they will pay as they see fit.
On May 02 2012 13:00 oniman999 wrote: I just want to say this. I went to MLG Columbus this year with a couple friends, and we all had a great time. The entire weekend was filled with Starcraft, and it was my most memorable time this year by far. On Sunday after the event, a group of viewers stayed behind to meet players/casters/personalities who might show up and do things like autographs. From my memory the only people who stayed behind to meet fans were the following: Grubby, DJWheat, and Day[9]. Day[9] obviously attracted the biggest following and said something along the lines of "Don't worry about not seeing me, I will stay until every one of you gets an autograph" and he did. Again, the only player who stayed behind was Grubby (from my memory, which could be way off. At the very least, it was 1-2 other players at most). Maybe the reason the casters gain so much popularity is because they actually care about their fans, rather than feel entitled to fans just because they are good at the game.
How many of the players from the event do you think were already back to practicing, or on planes flying home to practice? Not everybody can be a personality, and sometimes in order to stay relevant the more basic tasks come first. That's part of what ClouD's gripe is - casters stay relevant seemingly forever, without continuing to follow the game, because people like them for other reasons that are superficial to "competitive Starcraft II"
It's easy to see the possible trickle-down effect that the actual competition of the game becomes watered-down or de-emphasized in the fact of more marketable things (rivalries, nationalities i.e. "the foreigner hope", endlessly repeating things people said 8 months ago "Idra feels that this matchup is imbalanced" and so on)
Yea agree with ya. There is a conflict of roles. You can't be a progamer and stay back to do marketing work for the industry. If you want to be a progamer then you must spend all your time to be a progamer otherwise you would just be forced into the gap between roles. Community marketing is a full time role on its own and you can't be doing everything and expect results on the main end.
On May 02 2012 12:51 zefreak wrote: Watching InTheGame right now and I feel like djWheat isn't really give Cloud a fair representation.
And Painuser is a pretty bad caster, his game knowledge is so bad that even idra and incontrol roll their eyes at some of the stuff he says.
1. It's Wheat. Cloud isn't in his camp.
2. There are a lot of casters who fit the bill.
3. Greg and Geoff can say some pretty silly things too, but that's what you get when your more in the public eye. Not just talking about ability to analyze a game because that is something I'd say Greg can do quite well when he can see everything.
I find myself rolling my eyes at a lot of things people say. Especially when they're in the limelight. It comes with the territory.
I like to see the willingness to expand and show improvement on one's duties. That is to say I show no preferential treatment and they all have work to do on every aspect of their casting. A lot of them are pretty comfortable with where they are at, but I say nay. Keep mixing it up and dig in deep.
On May 02 2012 13:05 oZii wrote: As others have said supply and demand. Professional athletes make tons of money because billionaire owners pay them that much because in the end it means more profit.
Right now the "Good Caster" pool is small so to legitimize your tournament you need not only players but casters. There alot of players that will draw viewers there is a smaller amount of casters that will draw.
Pretty easy to understand why the situation is like this. It's not the players fault, not the casters fault, it's all on the tournament organizers/sponsors.
If organizers feel day9 > cloud then that is their prerogative and they will pay as they see fit.
It's just a wrong strategy to be promoting caster over players in the long run as it would then turn aspiring progamers to turn into casting.
When all the talent is into casting then there won't be much exciting games for casters to cast. The material for casters would drop into a dangerously low quality that even the best caster would not be able to turn a corndog into a steak.
Casting positions are already extremely scare and to put more attention into casting would just spell the doom for the sport itself.
On May 02 2012 12:59 archangel967 wrote: It's so sad that a player like Cloud would use his position as a player to call out casters like this. Casters are the conduit through which pro-level SC2 games get out to the public. They are vital to the continued existence of SC2 as an eSport and the ability for Cloud to even be paid to play this game.
Unfortunately this myopic view is common when someone has such a narrow perspective.
Its correct that they are vital, but casters also have a responsibility to know what they are talking about. I cant speak for the pro players, but I can imagine that the pro players can be frustrated knowing the casters misinform the people watching at home. Saying that, "player X" made HUGE mistake/blunder, but in reality alot of other things actually causes that to happen.
Lets be honest, pro players and very high level gamers are the only people that really knows the game, inside and out.
Some casters can really distort whats happening. Idra said himself that he mutes alot of the tournaments, because of this. Probably isnt the only one. More pro casters are what the scene needs more of.
On May 02 2012 12:59 archangel967 wrote: It's so sad that a player like Cloud would use his position as a player to call out casters like this. Casters are the conduit through which pro-level SC2 games get out to the public. They are vital to the continued existence of SC2 as an eSport and the ability for Cloud to even be paid to play this game.
Unfortunately this myopic view is common when someone has such a narrow perspective.
Its correct that they are vital, but casters also have a responsibility to know what they are talking about. I cant speak for the pro players, but I can imagine that the pro players can be frustrated knowing the casters misinform the people watching at home. Saying that, "player X" made HUGE mistake/blunder, but in reality alot of other things actually causes that to happen.
Lets be honest, pro players and very high level gamers are the only people that really knows the game, inside and out.
Some casters can really distort whats happening. Idra said himself that he mutes alot of the tournaments, because of this. Probably isnt the only one. More pro casters are what the scene needs more of.
You make some sense here. As a caster you can't be rambling about things you don't understand and thats why ingame knowledge is one of the paramount criteria to make a good caster. A caster would also have a duty to ensure that what they say actually reflect the reality of a particular moment or scenario.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
On May 02 2012 12:55 faction123 wrote: I'd just like to point out that top players could easily make $40-50/hr just streaming with ads if they wanted to. If it's money you want, there's your answer.
Stream revenue is much more dependant on your established fanbase and your nationality than it is on your skill level, and very few streamers make that much money. Lots of Code S/Code A players don't get a tenth the viewers that IdrA does. Look at the viewer count right now. ForGG - 380, IdrA - 4750.
Sometimes i don't get the distortion in returns in favor of Idra. He gets viewers because of only two main reasons.
1. A craze for notoriety from foreign fans that makes up his so called 'personality'. 2. He is a foreigner who speaks the foreigners' languange.
In a perfect world, Cloud would be right. The most popular players would also be the best. However, how many of the people truly care about the game and not drama/personalities? CatzPajamas for example is what, a diamond league player? Can't get much insight from him, I'd know, being a diamond myself. However he brings such hype and excitement to the game that I specifically try to tune into IPL whenever him and Painuser (who I think was unfairly singled out - his analysis doesn't sound that bad) cast.
On May 02 2012 12:55 faction123 wrote: I'd just like to point out that top players could easily make $40-50/hr just streaming with ads if they wanted to. If it's money you want, there's your answer.
Stream revenue is much more dependant on your established fanbase and your nationality than it is on your skill level, and very few streamers make that much money. Lots of Code S/Code A players don't get a tenth the viewers that IdrA does. Look at the viewer count right now. ForGG - 380, IdrA - 4750.
Sometimes i don't get the distortion in returns in favor of Idra. He gets viewers because of only two main reasons.
1. A craze for notoriety from foreign fans that makes up his so called 'personality'. 2. He is a foreigner who speaks the foreigners' languange.
Another other reasons worth noting?
I mean, there is the other point of, whether you hate him or not, he is probably the second best foreign zerg after Stephano. Yea he loses a lot and hasn't won much recently, but look at the people he plays against, it's almost exclusively top Koreans. Regardless of your feelings for him, it's denial to say he's not a great player.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
On May 02 2012 12:55 faction123 wrote: I'd just like to point out that top players could easily make $40-50/hr just streaming with ads if they wanted to. If it's money you want, there's your answer.
Stream revenue is much more dependant on your established fanbase and your nationality than it is on your skill level, and very few streamers make that much money. Lots of Code S/Code A players don't get a tenth the viewers that IdrA does. Look at the viewer count right now. ForGG - 380, IdrA - 4750.
Sometimes i don't get the distortion in returns in favor of Idra. He gets viewers because of only two main reasons.
1. A craze for notoriety from foreign fans that makes up his so called 'personality'. 2. He is a foreigner who speaks the foreigners' languange.
Another other reasons worth noting?
I mean, there is the other point of, whether you hate him or not, he is probably the second best foreign zerg after Stephano. Yea he loses a lot and hasn't won much recently, but look at the people he plays against, it's almost exclusively top Koreans. Regardless of your feelings for him, it's denial to say he's not a great player.
Nope he is not a great player.
A great player should not be known for his bad behavior and should be a role model especially so when this is a video game that is also targeted to teens.
A great player needs to consistently post results justifying his reason to be great.
Former GSL champions like Polt, Jjakji has significantly far less viewers than this unruly antii-hero.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
TBH Day9 can't really do a good livecast. I feel he is much more introverted in nature as compared to his brother. To do livecast another essential quality to have would be an extroversion personality as compared to introversion. When you are extroverted you have a better inclination to do better public speaking.
He lacks that. He is much more suited to do productions that gives him ample time to prepare, less eyes, and also time to think things deeply. He can't really produce insights off the cuff if you follow his gigs.
On the good side of things; he is up there more so due to his unwavering COMMITMENT. All these are just purely my opinions.
Cloud i have nothing against you and i like honest people but:
The TLO comment is not only completely out of place in the video, it's also a very stupid thing to say.
I have no idea what your definition of a good player is. To me a player who places at the top of gm and competing with the best of the best is definitely a good player. I am not saying he is one of the best players on the planet but with what evidence can you say he is bad? If you take rankings: TLPD 82nd, 123nd (http://www.mystarcraft.de/de/edb/ranking/players?zone=8) Which ironically is way higher than you are.
As far as TLO goes, we will have a showmatch soon to decide if I have the right to think he's bad at the game or not. I'm perfectly ready to eat back all my words and get all the shit I deserve in case I lose.
It is even more stupid to stand by your stupid comment. Do you really think the result of the showmatch will have any meaning on how good TLO is? If you win the showmatch 4:0 do you really think it proves that he is a bad player?
I am wondering what happens if you loose. Do you then believe that he is a good player? Or do you then still think he is bad? Either way that is weird. A: means if i (decent master player) win a showmatch against you (e.g by gambling hard and getting lucky) then i am a good player (which i am not lol). B: what's the point of the showmatch...
On the other points pls read Hot_Bid's comment again.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
TBH Day9 can't really do a good livecast. I feel he is much more introverted in nature as compared to his brother. To do livecast another essential quality to have would be an extroversion personality as compared to introversion. When you are extroverted you have a better inclination to do better public speaking.
He lacks that. He is much more suited to do productions that gives him ample time to prepare, less eyes, and also time to think things deeply. He can't really produce insights off the cuff if you follow his gigs.
On the good side of things; he is up there more so due to his unwavering COMMITMENT. All these are just purely my opinions.
Day9 can't do a good livecast? What the fuck? Have you ever watched day9?
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
Husky has 635,980 youtube subscribers. Day9 has 268,610
Husky wins and is therefore the best sc2 caster in the world! Everybody make sure leagues pay him the most.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
You've basically reiterated my point that it's inappropriate to be comparing Kobe to Day9 without intentionally doing so. The whole point of Cloud's argument is that casters are not investing enough effort improving their analytical casting despite their high pay. Day9 is arguably an example of this. He is not the premier caster, but he makes up for this in his charm, humor, personality, etc. Kobe did not become a high salaried player because of his charm, but rather through hard work helped along by some talent of course. Clearly, both individuals are popular in their respective scenes but the reason behind their popularity is different. A more appropriate comparison would be Day9 to Jeremy Lin. Come of season, he's probably going to get a higher paying offer than a lot of other players in the league despite being inferior skill wise. Why? Because he puts seats in games, attract media attention, viewership/sponsors from asia, etc.
i think we're treading on dangerous ground when we start complaining about casters making too much money. whats the solution, strip them of their right to cast? shun anyone who doesnt watch player streams or gom instead of casters? is that really whats 'good' for the scene?
i dont think there's any way to prove this one way or the other, but my feeling is that casters are interest and money generators, not leeches. they get fans hyped and interested in sc2 way more than they draw money and attention away from players. they're a positive force. yeah it sucks that most players dont make decent money, but thems the breaks. if you really love this game, dont complain about some other guy making money by analyzing and casting your games. you should be happy fans are being exposed to your play. get your name out, set up a stream of your own, and money will come.
I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
most followers =/= best. by your logic someone like john madden is the best NFL commentator. have you heard him talk?
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
most followers =/= best. by your logic someone like john madden is the best NFL commentator. have you heard him talk?
where did I say most followers = best? Oh wait, I didn't. All I said is Day9 gets paid a lot because he is worth it. He brings in the viewers more than anyone else.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
most followers =/= best. by your logic someone like john madden is the best NFL commentator. have you heard him talk?
where did I say most followers = best? Oh wait, I didn't. All I said is Day9 gets paid a lot because he is worth it. He brings in the viewers more than anyone else.
On May 02 2012 12:20 SupLilSon wrote: Honestly, I think the casters in question care a lot more than people think. I'll admit that Tasteless has started to get on my nerves. If any caster should be under fire, it's him. He casts the most prestigious tournament in the world and yet never seems to know more than he did the previous week. He is almost never in tune with the latest metagame and strategies and in contrast to Artosis, looks like a noob. I do feel like Tasteless never actually plays SC2 and kinda just got the job because he did BW casting for GOM.
However, I think JP is getting a lot of undue hate here. He was a masters level random player, so the majority of the community shouldn't bash on him for not giving a shit about SC2 or being bad. He obviously was semi-decent at the game. At least better than a large majority. You don't need to be GM in order to understand the intricacies of SC2. You don't necessarily have to be able to execute the strategies you are talking about. People have a huge misconception that in mainstream sports all the casters are ex-players. It's simply not true. There are ton's of ESPN analysts and writers who probably couldn't run a mile if their life depended on it. They still have passion for the sports they watch/cast. In fact, there are a lot of coaches in mainstream sports who were never world class players, yet the top players respect them and their knowledge.
Also, to all those who question Day9's skill, he used to practice with Gretorp. Gretorp is by no means a top level player, but he is good enough to be a very high masters/low GM calibur player and get's matched against many pros. If Day9 can maintain that level of skill on top of all the schooling he was doing, as well as Daily's etc.. that shows immense talent and passion for SC2. Day9 is almost undoubtedly one of the hardest working people in SC2 right now and players really should be thanking him for making their sport that much more popular.
Actually have to agree with the tasteless bit. He's a really nice guy but honestly I think people only think he's good because he casts with Artosis. Without Artosis he would be terrible whereas Artosis is good no matter who he's with. Then again he's good looking and probably gives Esports a better image for that reason alone.
Orb makes a great point, one which I believe is the underlying idea behind this whole argument.
On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
The point is that ClouD seems to be missing the idea that both players and casters have to prove themselves by working and working and working for little to no return before ever making it onto the main stage. It seems that he doesn't believe that is the case for casters; he believes that casters have to toil less for greater reward.
The key difference between the two is that players' salaries are almost entirely reliant on winnings and sponsorship, while casters are provided payments for simply showing up to events and being their lovely selves. I saw a few comparisons to the NBA in this thread, which is not good for argument since players like Kobe are paid to simply be on the team and play, at this point, regardless of whether or not the Lakers even win the championship.
Based on this perspective, I think that ClouD is approaching the problem in the wrong way. Perhaps the issue is not that casters are being overpaid but that players are being underpaid. The way I see it, and always have, is that foreign teams picking up and trading players and all that jazz and fun stuff is irrelevant to the scene as a whole. People love to see threads like "Liquid'Taeja git sum" pop up, but what does it even really mean for the players and the viewers other than seeing your namesake player rock a different t-shirt? In a tournament scene that is plagued with individual leagues, what does it even really matter who is on what team? With so little emphasis on actually playing together as a team, what does it even matter?
Instead of focusing our (foreigner scene) hype towards big, blowout weekend tournaments like MLG, IEM, DreamHack, etc., we should show some some love for the way GSL and Team Leagues are running their tournaments - more games over longer spans of time. That seems to be the best way to fully enjoy the game on all ends of the spectrum - casters, players, and viewers alike.
On May 02 2012 09:55 MVTaylor wrote: Glad Cloud came out and said it.
As IdrA reinforced on Inside The Game tonight, top casters like Day[9] do make a stupid amount of money, and the fact he tries to pretend this isn't the case is really annoying.
how is this annoying? id say its annoying for players to reveal stuff like this about the casters. no player salaries are ever revealed (as it should be), so why should the casters reveal theirs? should they apologise for SUCCEEDING?
Also, is it really that stupid that Day9 would make a lot of money? I don't know how much money Day9 makes but I hope he makes a shitton of money. Why? He's the #1 most popular caster in our scene. Of course he should make a lot of money? Is it really that weird?
For example, the biggest sports commentators make 5+ million dollars a year. The best professional athletes make four or five times that much, Kobe makes like 20mil+. Now you might say, Hot_Bid, Kobe makes 4x as much as Bob Costas, but Day9 might outearn the biggest pro gamer. Well no shit, Kobe is about a thousands more popular than Bob Costas, but Day brings a huge fanbase that rivals just about any top player. So I ask again, would it really be that weird if he made as much or more?
You guys act like it's a bad thing that people who are the #1 best person at what they do makes a lot of money. That it's somehow "undeserved." He's the best in the world at it. There is literally nobody better at the skill that he does that hundreds of thousands of people watch, and somehow it's wrong to make six figures doing it? Come on.
your analogy of day9 to kobe is completely wrong. kobe makes so much money because he's one of the best in the sport. there's no denying it. give it a couple more years and you can toss his name in the likes of chamberlain and jordan. day9 is not the best caster. not by a long shot.
day9 is the most popular caster in the world and it is by a long shot. Dude has nearly 110,000 followers on Twitter. Artosis has 65,000. Idra has just under 50,000 followers on twitter.
Kobe makes so much money because he is worth. He proves that worth with his play. Day9 makes so much money because he is worth it. He brings in a TON of viewers. What other sc2 figure can you bring in that has the popularity of Day9? NONE.
You know why Day9 makes so much money? Because so many people love the dude. When he is casting a tournament more people tune in. Simple as that. No one else has as much of an impact on viewers like that.
most followers =/= best. by your logic someone like john madden is the best NFL commentator. have you heard him talk?
where did I say most followers = best? Oh wait, I didn't. All I said is Day9 gets paid a lot because he is worth it. He brings in the viewers more than anyone else.
read last 2 quotes before mine
Kobe gets paid to be the best player. Casters get paid to be the best at bringing in viewers. So in a sense, Day9 is the best. Quite frankly the best caster is all opinion. There isn't a way to prove who is the best caster because its all personal preference. But there is no doubt that Day9 brings in the most views, which is what tournaments care about.
Day9 is the most popular man in sc2. Whether he is the best caster or whatever, there is no true way to answer that question. Why is it wrong that the most popular guy is getting paid the most?
EDIT: and honestly, what Day9 gets paid, really isn't effecting the prize pools of tournaments. Tournament prize pools isn't what needs to improve, its player salaries that need to improve. Day9 isn't hampering player salaries.
This is a comedy. Most of the casters deserves what they made. Many players cannot be even compared to HD or Husky when it comes to what they brought to the game. Without Day9, HD, or Husky SC2 scene in USA would have been much smaller. A single below average player missing would have ZERO effect to community. That is why many caster deserves even more. Of course they are going to make more money. I absolutely see nothing wrong with it.
+1 to ClouD for speaking his mind and opinion on a subject that will need to be addressed at some point. I (and others) may not agree with what he says but still it takes courage to speak out like this. Isn't part of the "problem" ClouD talks about the way the tournaments are set up. We see more of the casters than of the players. Even in down time (between games) we barely see players (at least it seems). Also some of them aren't particularly charisimatic or marketable in front of a camera. This is something that needs to be focused on. The stories of the players. Why do you care about the back-up (insert position/sport here) or borderline starter on your team, or even your favorite star player. The story behind them. I think for the sport to continue to grow, the scene needs to push forward the players into the spotlight. That doesn't mean Casters should fade into the spotlight they're still an important part of the game and tournament experience. Both need to be front and center with the game to succeed.
Right now Casters are the driving force behind viewership and thus marketability (and allowing tournaments and prizes to continue) for tournaments. The skills for a good caster are knowledge, public speaking, charisma, enthusiasm, etc... Some casters are better at others in different areas (Day9 charisma, TotalBiscuit for enthusiasm). Of course not only do these different areas that they're better at than others give them fans, but also detractors for it, or their lack of other skills (TotalBiscuit "annoying" voice or Husky's lack of knowledge, Day9 over-analyzing). If you want to take issue with the EFFORT put in by the casters, OK sure. That's something I can't always see in any casters. Do I want Casters to get better, yes, do I feel they need to only be former players or put some sort of league limit on who can cast, heck no. That's like starting to say you can't commentate a sport unless you played it, you can't coach unless you played it, you can't vote unless you're a politician. If a Caster lacks knowledge and is saying wrong things then that's a problem, but if a caster has it but can't explain/regurgitate it to the audience in a way they can understand same thing.
Commentators will always be a subject of contention. Take basketball and March Madness. Ever hear Gus Johnson call games... think TB on steroids. How about Jim Nantz (especially this March), seemed so dry, straight-arrowed and just there to play-by-play and let his partner do the color and enthusiasm. Personally I dislike Nantz's style and usually like Gus Johnson's. Do they (even with research) have an easier job than the players or even a lot of other employed people. Yes, does that mean the players should always be paid more because they have an easier job, don't think so. Sports pros and Gamer pros both play games for a living. A lot of them are doing something they love and enjoy for a living. How many people can say that?
ClouD's point is there, but it comes across as such a whine (regardless of if he's blunt and always says it how it is) it gets buried. Casters are an important part of the game. Players DO need to be pushed into the spotlight with the casters (and thus bring in viewers like casters, make more money/bring validity to E-Sports). With the way it works now (especially youtube casts or even sometimes tournaments) the games and casters are on-screen the most and are marketed the most. That's why they have the followings they have, that's why they make what they make. Now it's going to take a concerted effort to get the players into the spotlight as well. Basically casting is a very debatable thing, it's also not as easy as made out to be, but not as hard as some other things, Casters are making what they're making because they're what's driving the scene (not entirely their fault), and Players need to walk/be pushed into the spotlight with the casters making them as important if not more.
You are basing that off the fact that all you've ever seen is the SC2 Nick featuring Dan.
There was a time when Nick was highly encouraged to do this. Heck, our community members paid for his original flight to Korea based off his WCG performance. Wheat had zero knowledge of BW and Nick being the nice guy he is realized this and asked if Wheat if he wanted him to help out. It was a breath of fresh air to have actual English commentary. A WCG USA first.
Now fast forward to the GOM Classic, bring in lilsusie and all that jazz. Viola. Nick was carrying the workload unlike now where he's Artosis' lacky and plays a certain role in the cast. You'll notice he opens up more given the circumstance as he has looked at recent BW games for TV as well.
It really comes down to the role he believes he has in the cast and what he wants to fill.
He's one of those guys who could definitely step it up a notch given the opportunity but like I said he's very comfortable with Dan calling the shots.
The thing going for guys like Dan, Sean, Nick, insert caster is what you touched upon. Likeability and familiarity.
There is nothing wrong with having a comfort zone, but I would love to see them switch it up sometime. Right now, everyone is following this stupid template when it comes to casting or role they feel like they have to fill.
My message is to make it your own. Have fun with it and keep learning.
On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I usually dont agree with a lot of things you say, but this is completely true. Casters don't really make that much money and they work extremely hard. Just setting up your own show, writing up articles, answering questions all take a crap load of time. Day 9 for example works his ass off bringing enthusiasm (you do to orb, when you cast) , dedication, insight, plus various other things that are great.
Personally I think good casters (day 9, orb, tastetosis, etc) are a big reason why watching pro sc2 is so entertaining. ; Why doesn't everyone do it If you can make ridiculous amounts of money doing it without lifting a finger? Why wouldnt people that dont even have the slightest enjoyment esports be inflating the scene, especially in this economy? It always easier to sit back and say things then it actually is to do them.
I can understand ClouD's reasoning. From his point of view, there are a lot of hard-working players that don't get the name-recognition they deserve, while mediocre casters get the limelight and (we assume) the money.
At the same time, he needs to recognize that SC2 is still (believe it or not) at it's infancy stages, and 'big name' casters help bring in the viewers, the steam numbers, and the dollars. I personally didn't get into SC2 to watch Idra or Naniwa or Thorzain. I got into SC2 because I watched Klazart and Cholera and Diggity killing SC:BW casts on youtube, and they introduced me to HD and Husky, who introduced me to Day[9] and PsyStarcraft, who introduced me to everyone else. A POPULAR and CHARISMATIC caster can bring in more viewers, which improves sponsorship, which brings in more dollars to spread around the SC2 scene all-around. While we may want to weed out the mediocre casting talent as SC2 reaches it's final stage, we're still (at least) 2 expansions away, and I've found the casting so far to be both entertaining and informative. While I'll always agree that players should get more recognition, money, and fame, I'm not sure it's fair to blame casters for any discrepancy, either perceived or real.
I have to say, that for me personally, it is a little hard to accept some of the things Cloud said, because they seem overly harsh to some of the great personalities I've come to love in the past 1,5 years in this scene I've been following the scene... I was actually raging pretty hard at some of the stuff he said. But then again, Cloud was actually making some pretty good points, just his way of bringing them across may have upset some people. (calling some of the casters "stupid" for example) On the other hand, I guess that's what Cloud is known (and liked) for aswell.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time.
Do you? and really do they?
Think they mentioned it a couple of times on the GSL so.... They do work long hours and try to improve their cast. So let's not have them under appriciated.
ClouD doesn't say they dont deserve appreciation. But what's important is that players currently get less appreciation for doing a lot more work (in most cases). He also believes casters should invest way more time in trying to understand the game at the highest level, and therefor they also need to practise like the pro's to be able to understand the game fully.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
Did you watch his stream lately?
He is not even top master.
A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast.
Instead of pissing on the casters he should re-think the way tournaments are structured right now. A lot of times certain players that need not be named, are invited just because of their reputation/fanbase but not neccessarily skill. Which means the hard working, not so known pros tend to have to go through open qualifiers which are usually hard to beat.
And most casters actually cast more than the majority of known foreigners play, which is sad in a way.
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
Did you watch his stream lately?
He is not even top master.
A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast.
A analytical caster doesn't have to be a GM or top master... for fuck sake where do you people get these ridiculous made up requirements to be a caster from? Your ignorance amazes me..
I dont like when someones mouth is bigger or far bigger than himself.. Eventho he might has some points about players too, TLO or whoever he called, he is in no position to say such a thing. I dont feel TLO is too great but hes better than me, thats why i dont talk shit about him. Didnt TLO "won" more money than you from tournements and achieved more than you? The beta cheesing argument isnt comming from nowhere but all there is too me is just the feeling " why did i slack to that time and didnt do what TLO did at that time ", while on the other hand anyone who knows your play could claim your playing the same boring nogasFE since years which isnt even your own style, correct me if im wrong i think its thorzains bo u atleast play in tvp, without much of a success ( also here: Correct me if im wrong but with less success than TLO [after switching races multiple times] [[with far more practicetime]] ).
I dont have anything against ClouD but while hes on stream discussing with me that he might thinks i streamcheated someone because he saw the game and without beeing asked telling me and his viewers 2 times that he doesnt think im a good player on his stream just makes me "hmm why is there a reason to tell me".
Other than that i think he got a point with casters, while it got mentioned before by Grubby yesterday, the problem arent Casters getting too much instead its Players getting too little for their effort while investing alot ( Time/effort/some a big part of their life ). But there are also players who get too much salary, recognition or streamviewers for what they do eventho the Money for most is far less in comparison to casters, it also applies the other way around.
My oppinion on that Casterthingy is just, people getting entertained or hyped about a Person wayyy to easy, i dont even like speaking this out because in the end, streaming getting so popular and people enjoying it so much to view their own beloved caster/player on daily basis makes it easier for us all, easier for many players and casters to have another income source. But i just feel that way, there are some players and caster, around 10 for me where i feel "Why do people watch him, he isnt even good or he isnt even funny". But i guess its just my problem, in the end their 1-5k viewers like them and i dont, their viewers watch them and i dont so it must be having a different view on things. Same as i like to watch WWE as many other people around the world so they get their viewers while many people just say its fake and there is nothing more to it and they dont get it why your watch it.
So in the end, beeing a player who focusses on winning stuff is just a harder way to make money then beeing a caster who focusses on entertaining people. I dont watch many streams only a few and mostly i let them run during i practise and switch in whenever i want but i also think for viewers its easier to choose from 5 Casters instead from 20 Players who they like and its easier to say " Kas always won in ladder i was learning so much, today he lost 5games in a row while i watched so im bored so i turn off the stream " instead of " Caster X isnt as entertaining today im gonna turn off the stream ".
While everyone is different and likes different types of guys, i think its almost undeniable that Artosis is the greatest SC2 caster and sets atleast for our Communtiy the highest standards of Casting both analytical and entertainmentwise. God maybe its just me but watching him and ONLY tasteless together is just pure amusement. They made me laughing out loud sometimes infront of my computer which i rarely do when im alone, there arent many good/funny movies or series that gets me to that point of really laughing instead of giggling when watching them alone. So maybe this is a reason why Cloud, but maybe especially feel only a few Casters are good and only Tastosis is great.
Analyticly Casters could and should improve alot that true, but i think its ok if they say in advance, Players X gameplan from now could be going banshee or raven instead of misscalling gamesituations/fights or bad observing. I just hate it that so many casters and observers miss dropps or missread the game totally and call it. So there some casters that kinda dropp their false knowledge giving their Viewers wrong reads on how the game is going, while they are still in the state of analytical knowledge where they should sometimes just give their viewers a statement where they could choose from. Maybe its just my feeling too but whenever i see the same casters dropp their knowledge and predict almost the whole opposite outcome of a battle or game i feel like "mehhh".
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
Did you watch his stream lately?
He is not even top master.
A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast.
A analytical caster doesn't have to be a GM or top master... for fuck sake where do you people get these ridiculous made up requirements to be a caster from? Your ignorance amazes me..
If your not a "natural" Master.. Which means that with some effort you would be high Master.. You shouldn't cast... at least not solo.
Aside from the content some well-intentioned suggestions for future vlogs:
- Make yourself a short script with the points you want to convey. - If you want to claim sth. prepare some references or evidence to back it up. - If you feel like something slipped out of your mouth, that could be interpreted wrong, do another take. - Try to get to the point as precisely as possible and avoid rambling and ranting. - Don't be tired; do videos when you are at full mental capacity. - Review the video before releasing it to check how you come across.
A little more effort like this, and your vlogs will be neat, short and precise. May spare you some explanation-posts in the future.
I think stuff like this just hurts your own reputation, whether or not your arguments are legit.
On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN.
I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer! Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer? ... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
Soccer is a real sport. SC2 is not. You really can't compare the two.
If it's more lucrative to be a caster, and you're in it for the money, then be a caster. If you don't have the skillset to be a caster, be a player. Right now it's easier to be a pro player than a pro caster. Simple economics.
I totally agree that the casters have sooooooooo much improvement needed to become more professional. A very small percentage of them actually bother to research what is happening in the sc2 scene and have little knowledge about the players they are casting, their favorite matchups, etc etc. Apollo is one of the very few exceptions, he does a lot of research and knows a lot about payers from all scenes and it shows when he casts as he delivers a real professional cast. It just seems lazy to me that so many of them, including the highest profile casters of all, really don't know what's going on in the scene, it should be fairly standard.
On May 02 2012 17:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer! Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer? ... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
not easy ;(, getting there!
Also, ClouD, you can say Orb is a bad caster all you want, its your opinion, but saying his casting is insincere is just incorrect.
Cloud, are you completely out of your mind? You are digging your own grave...
You insult ppl that actually matter to a lot other ppl, you act as if you are better than (both of) them. What you do is only hurting YOURSELF.
The things you say here are not things you should say in public, these are thoughts to be only shared with friends. How can somebody post them on a huge forum? Not a wise decision.
On May 02 2012 17:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer! Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer? ... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
Haha good one! But on topic, few mlgs ago tasteless was casting with Rob Simpson and Tasteless was doing the observing (Adebisi took over the next day as a dedicated observer, wonder why?). I have to say that was one of the worst pro-level casting+observing i have ever seen. Neither of them had any idea what was going on in the game, hatcheries got sniped while tasteless was playing with the camera zooming some random marine and telling some random jokes "look this marine is waiving his hands". It was a total farce. But guess what? In the livethread people where laughing like crazy and called the casting awesome. It was absolutely horrible casting, but done by a fan favorite so it was awesome. If someone like HD had done that, people would have ripped him a new asshole (like painuser said).
Yes Cloud i agree, that is bad casting (another example is day9 casting live and 20% of his casting consisting of yelling "OH NO"). But if that is what the people want and they bring viewers, so be it. Pay the casters their money
On May 02 2012 07:39 NexCa wrote: uhhh... okay, so i don't know if ClouD ever saw constant Daylies of Day9, but in my honest opinion, he failed there...
Day9 has so much (and i really mean, SO MUCH) more insight than the most casters like Painuser, Husky and HD. After Artosis probably the best caster IMO. I've learned so much about the game in general, like timings, builds, execuitions etc.
The other part is that Day9 has such a good understanding about analysing things, ofc some ppl don't like it, but for me it's just amazing how he looks at the game or certain situations and knows whats up. I could be wrong, in my opinion that's great. Hard to criticize someone (or in this case a caster) when you are a Progamer and know every little thing about the game and live from that game because it's your freakn JOB.
You realise that Painuser is a far better player than Day9 right? If only Day9 were as good at casting as he is at selling his cult of the personality. I'm glad there's started to be more backlash against him because in my opinion he's been poor for a good year now and it's very clear he rarely plays the game or makes an effort to really keep up anymore.
i'm fairly certain they are of similar skill levels.. Just because PU shows up to a couple of events and drops out first round doesn't make him better.
Painuser finished 3rd at an MLG. Even after Koreans came he continued to make good open bracket runs and knock out known pro players. There's no way Day9 is even close to as good as he is.
Did you watch his stream lately?
He is not even top master.
A caster who considers himself analytical should be GM (or top master equivalent), spend 3-4hours per day playing the game (which is enough to keep up to GM), and the rest of the time to cast.
A analytical caster doesn't have to be a GM or top master... for fuck sake where do you people get these ridiculous made up requirements to be a caster from? Your ignorance amazes me..
No idea. It's funny because the majority of these people saying "omg caster must be GM to know anythign!!" are probably diamond and below. Their GM level analysis would be wasted on these same people who think they know what they want.
I dont think there is a competition here. Lets just test it, set up 2 tourneys with similar players and see who gets more viewers. One casted by tastosis, one by some random high masters guy. Oh wait we dont have to test it, its been tested like every day for the last year. It might not be fair but there is a reason the casters make more money.
On May 02 2012 17:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer! Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer? ... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
Haha good one! But on topic, few mlgs ago tasteless was casting with Rob Simpson and Tasteless was doing the observing (Adebisi took over the next day as a dedicated observer, wonder why?). I have to say that was one of the worst pro-level casting+observing i have ever seen. Neither of them had any idea what was going on in the game, hatcheries got sniped while tasteless was playing with the camera zooming some random marine and telling some random jokes "look this marine is waiving his hands". It was a total farce. But guess what? In the livethread people where laughing like crazy and called the casting awesome. It was absolutely horrible casting, but done by a fan favorite so it was awesome. If someone like HD had done that, people would have ripped him a new asshole (like painuser said).
Yes Cloud i agree, that is bad casting (another example is day9 casting live and 20% of his casting consisting of yelling "OH NO"). But if that is what the people want and they bring viewers, so be it. Pay the casters their money
Yeh it's pretty funny people defending tasteless saying he knows a lot he's just happy letting Artosis call the shots etc and to watch his brood war casts to see what he can do....news flash, that was quite some time ago. He makes soooooo many wrong calls its incredible and half the game is just rambling on about his favorite colour or how hydras are really slow off creep. I highly, highly doubt he puts much research into the players he is casting.
The main point to bring up what cloud is looking for in a caster is not what 99,8 of the people watching are looking for really he shouldent really need or even want to watch the streams and go for replays isntead and sit on skype with his teammates discussing the details that is needed this seems like better use of his time,
I do agree that the casters are not tip top yet, but they really don't need to be pro'es at the game at all neither do they need to know every little detail that a progamer knows becouse that would just be weired having cvasters that know more about the game than the actual player so expecting caster to know more than you i think cloud is just wanting more than he can expect.
But again i agree that casters could be better but this is stil lrather new none of our casters have journalistic / tv backgrounds and havent had media training which makes a huge diffrence.
On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN.
Can you try to make you're points without name dropping AND flaming the casters at the same time? I thought you were a adult, not a fucking child. Not to mention the fact that you bitch and whine when people complain about you.. (homestorycup casting) then you go on long winded rants bashing other prominent community members who matter much more than you do.. Also Ironic is how you are saying casting is so easy, and bashing other casters for their so called poor casting.. when next to no-one liked your casting at homestorycup, infact it was quite abysmal, likely the worst of all players. Not only did you not know when to stop talking, but you're analysis was some of the worst of all the players..
Props to Cloud for being so open about an issue like this, although I though he was just repeating the same point over and over again without adding any serious arguments to it. Also, some of the comments directed towards some people were definitely below the belt, so to speak.
For example, day9 doesn't make his money because he's a great caster (and I too agree that he is not, mainly because he hypes up insignificant things trying to artificially make the cast more exciting when it would be exciting enough without that) - he makes his money because he produces a ton of content, is a great guy and a great personality. Basically, he makes the community better by his work and he has a large following. When you get day9 to cast your tournament, you can be sure you're going to get some eyeballs there because he's going to advertise it on his daily, twitter etc.
Now take Cloud as a player, for example. How much content does he produce? In all my time following sc2 (and I've seen probably many hundreds of hours of game time), I've probably seen Cloud play 10 times or less. I don't know how much he streams (or if he does), but I haven't noticed it - I'm sure he's not a super popular streamer, which probably means he doesn't use a microphone .
Anyway, it all comes down to this. Some of the "bad" casters he mentions are employees of the tournament organizers and AFAIK do a lot more at their jobs than just cast. Honestly, I don't like their casting either, but hiring great casters for a 2-day tournament is probably very expensive so these tournaments use their own (and they must have their own to cast qualifiers etc.). As for the others, there aren't too many of them that are considered "good" by the community - probably fewer than 10. And you will be listening to those casters all weekend long. On the other hand, there are probably 40 "tier1 and tier2" players out there, and nobody is going to not watch a tournament if a few of them aren't there. So in that respect, casters are more important.
On that note, Cloud is not one of those players, he's probably like a top100 player. Do you know what's the pay disparity between the tennis top three and the #100?
I agree with ClouD, casters who have no idea what they are talking about should stop trying to predict builds, or explain why the player did a certain thing. I'm all for the play-by-play casters though, they do an amazing job. I haven't listened to day9 in a long time, because he tries to explain what the players are doing, but is more often than not wrong.
The most annoying cast I've ever listened to was Painuser at IPL, where he was talking with such a weird voice that I just had to mute him, even though I enjoy HD's casting.
On May 01 2012 23:49 Wroshe wrote: I highly disagree with this. Not because I don't value the sacrifices that the players make but because I just don't think what they say is true.
The reason casters have become the cornerstone is because they have attracted a huge audience to the e-sport that wouldn't have been there otherwise. SC2 had a lot of people come into the sport that started off with watching HD or Husky on Youtube.
Another thing to take into consideration is that these casters immediatly made it into a business by pushing out a lot of videos and building themselves a personality. It resulted into getting them masses of followers (and in turn: money) who wanted them to be involved in e-sport tournaments. I'd guess that they wanted money to be comparable to what they'd make by not going to said tournament and hence the pay differential started to exist.
Now honestly it appears to me that the players want it both ways: they want the game to be big but not make the sacrifices that come with that (giving the cornerstone position to the casters).
I do agree though that there are a lot of bad casters out there who don't know what they're talking about. Having said that though I only watch major tournaments myself and the only one who does those tournaments and has that problem is HD. Besides that I am personally fine with the casting I get but that's most likely due to what I watch. I would imagine that the lower tier of tournaments have worse casting.
I agree, although i understand where cloud is coming from , he doesnt understand ,it seems, that players probably wouldnt even be getting big salaries if it werent for people like Husky and HD (back in the day) and day 9 pushing out huge amounts of content (multiple games a day etc back then) regardless if Husky and HD where not very good commentators from a players perspective they are the ones that made the game accesible to the masses along with day 9 who IMO has a much better understanding of the game then those 2. Although i do agree that his knowledge has certainly fallen off quite a bit recently (and i see him at less events, is he back in school or something?).
Not all casters deserve the fame and money they get, but casters are what made this game accesible to the masses not the akward basement dwelling players. Dont get me wrongtheir are some great player personalities in sc2 but you know what i mean, and the great player personalities in this game that also have skills get compensated very well, moreso that 99% of the casters out there id bet.
All in all i dont think Cloud appreciates what big personality (but little insight) casters have done for this game, sure a pro sc2 player would probably prefer a highly analytical caster but as a new fan you wont even understand what they are talking about and having casters like total biscuit and HD/Painuser (back in the day, i think HD is terrible these days, because he tries to provide some insight but its usually just completely wrong). Their are still casters out there that players probably hate on but dont realise they are benifiting from, casters that are bringing new fans into the game and making it accesible with colourful play by play and simple or very little analysis. If cloud (and other players with his opinnion) had things his way and low insight high personality casters dissapeared or werent compensated (giving them less reason to pursue the casting path) the scene would slow in growth in a very significant way and i think he fails to recognize exactly what these casters have done for the scene.
Edit: All that being said I dont think its okay to see casters who have no idea what they are talking about making big bucks at events they have no business being at. It doesnt happen that often (not in too bad of a way at least) but one that I can think of is HD. I respect HD for all he has done for the scene and i used to be a huge fan but he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about these days (or at least as of 4-5 months ago i avoid him like the plague now). The thing is cloud wasnt just targetting those casters he was targetting smaller casters casting cups etc as well.
The thing is, if players like cloud (because he is a good example for this) brought in huge amounts of fans like any of the popular casters do, he would be compensated appropriately regardless of skill (as long as he is getting past the first few rounds and getting some recognition). Just like the big name casters that cloud thinks have terrible insight but in reality draw big crowds afterall this is a business.
I agree with Cloud that some casts do not reflect a professional effort from the casters. Since quality casting is a critical component to growing the scene, I encourage us to help identify specific areas for casters to improve upon. It's well and good to say who you like and dislike, but tangible recommendations will help casters identify areas of improvement. We want casters to walk away from this thread with action items they can incorporate into their next cast.
Here's some examples from my personal preferences.
Like: - Professional dress attire at big events. Shirt and blazer looks sharp. - Commentary duos that practice regularly with each other. - Hearing player histories and stats. - Slower speaking cadence and moderate tones so cast doesn't overshadow action on screen. - Excitement during critical moments, subdued during rest. - Humor
Dislike: - Judgements on player's gameplay. Let the results decide if it was good or not. - Predicting player's next moves. Let the player reveal his strategy. - Predicting who's going to win or lose during the match. - Yelling, screaming and squealing into mic. Excitement is great but audio doesn't handle it well. - Unsubstantiated "so-and-so is the best _______ in the world" statements.
I agree with other posters that commentators are a big audience draw for the tournament. It's not surprising, as the audience can spend 20 hours with a commentator during a weekend event and only one or two hours with a particular player. On top of that, a lot of the regular content put out for the community comes from casters, which solidifies their presence.
I emphatically believe that players and teams need to ramp up how they promote themselves so that players have more draw. No doubt players are very busy practicing, but those getting noticed are either winning or putting themselves in front of the community. Casters have the spotlight by virtue of their role, but players can help build their own story through more than just the match itself.
Some examples: - Commentate your tournament matches after the event. Provide insight into your gameplay. You know it best! - Team Managers, give Twitter names to events/casters so they can promote your players. - Vlogs are great!
Anecdotally, I prioritizes matches featuring my 2-3 favorite players. Once they're not playing or out of the tournament, then I watch matches based on who's casting. Make me add you to my favorite player list.
On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN.
I actually agreed with some of the points Cloud made in his vlog but his response here just comes across as straight whining. So what if you think some people are bad casters? Enough people think they are good enough that they keep landing jobs. Maybe you think its unfair but a lot of things in life are unfair. I will agree that the general level of casting needs to be raised across the board (including many big name high profile casters) but simply whining about it isn't helping your situation as a player. Some casters worked really hard to get to where they are at and maybe some casters worked less hard. Stop focusing on someone else's job and focus more on how you can improve your own game.
Btw, if someone is practicing 10-12 hr days and are still not winning anything significant, that person probably is not going to win anything big ever. Some people just reach a certain skill ceiling or they are practicing wrong or inefficiently (entirely different discussion). Just because one puts in a lot of time and works hard doesn't necessarily mean that they will be the ones compensated the most or the ones who get the most recognition. Maybe the world should work like that but it's actually rarely the case.
Yes, casters need to improve their craft but they are still an important factor in bringing in viewers (money). As long as they are bringing in the viewers, they are deserving of whatever financial compensation they may get, even if its more than players. Players need to realize that this is a frikkin business and that in addition to being able to play at a high level, they need to be able to market themselves. Esports is only just beginning to grow and casters are playing a pivitol role in that growth. Players and their teams need to figure out how they can also help to grow esports and its not just from simply playing the game. I might think HD is a bad caster, but I can respect that he put a lot of work into introducing the competitive SC2 scene to the casual player. Afterall, thats how I got here.
Edit: I had no idea who Cloud was before this thread but now I do (maybe for the wrong reasons ie. not for his playing ability) so I guess he's doing something right.
ClouD has to realize that casters are not all about analyzing the game, it's only part of it
Casters also have to be well spoken and able to talk on the fly; not all players can be good casters because of this factor. They also have to be able to interest the casuals. Believe it or not, a lot of people who watch SC2 don't even play it lol. I saw a thread on reddit where people admit to it.
And working hard versus not working hard doesn't always correlate to who makes more money. Comparing the players and the casters make it seem ClouD is just hating. Perhaps a person waiting tables does more work than a lawyer. Some of the casters do a lot of work off camera too, TB does his youtube content and Day9 produces his daily shows (and does prep work for it) and it all contributes to their fame as casters.
On May 02 2012 17:33 wuhan_clan wrote: I don't know why no one else has brought this up yet but in addition to having a great player pool and great casters, an overlooked ingredient to running a great spectator-friendly tournament is having a good observer! Do anyone even know how hard it is to break into SC2 esports as an observer? ... and this guy thinks players have it bad ...
Haha good one! But on topic, few mlgs ago tasteless was casting with Rob Simpson and Tasteless was doing the observing (Adebisi took over the next day as a dedicated observer, wonder why?). I have to say that was one of the worst pro-level casting+observing i have ever seen. Neither of them had any idea what was going on in the game, hatcheries got sniped while tasteless was playing with the camera zooming some random marine and telling some random jokes "look this marine is waiving his hands". It was a total farce. But guess what? In the livethread people where laughing like crazy and called the casting awesome. It was absolutely horrible casting, but done by a fan favorite so it was awesome. If someone like HD had done that, people would have ripped him a new asshole (like painuser said).
Yes Cloud i agree, that is bad casting (another example is day9 casting live and 20% of his casting consisting of yelling "OH NO"). But if that is what the people want and they bring viewers, so be it. Pay the casters their money
Yeh it's pretty funny people defending tasteless saying he knows a lot he's just happy letting Artosis call the shots etc and to watch his brood war casts to see what he can do....news flash, that was quite some time ago. He makes soooooo many wrong calls its incredible and half the game is just rambling on about his favorite colour or how hydras are really slow off creep. I highly, highly doubt he puts much research into the players he is casting.
couldnt agree more. get tasteless to cast a ZvZ it will be a bomb of knowledge dropping upon you that Zerg can actually move faster upon creep. Roflmao.
On May 02 2012 18:25 illsick wrote: ClouD has to realize that casters are not all about analyzing the game, it's only part of it
Casters also have to be well spoken and able to talk on the fly; not all players can be good casters because of this factor. They also have to be able to interest the casuals. Believe it or not, a lot of people who watch SC2 don't even play it lol. I saw a thread on reddit where people admit to it.
And working hard versus not working hard doesn't always correlate to who makes more money. Comparing the players and the casters make it seem ClouD is just hating. Perhaps a person waiting tables does more work than a lawyer. Some of the casters do a lot of work off camera too, TB does his youtube content and Day9 produces his daily shows (and does prep work for it) and it all contributes to their fame as casters.
I think very few players could make the crossover to being a caster, knowing the game well is a small part (in my opinnion) of being a good caster. This can be seen in so many examples of popular casters who have just an average level of knowledge about the game. The type of personality it takes to be a good player and the type of personality it takes to be a good caster are completely different and its fairly rare that a player has both of these quality's.
This post is retarded. Casters produce 95% of the media available for Starcraft and therefore make the most money. Complaining about how this is not fair while not producing any media is a little on the retarded side.
Money does not directly correlate to skill, it correlates to marketing. Casters provide marketing by producing content. Big name players provide marketing through their name. Mid-Skilled players like ClouD? Maybe they just produce drama.
saying that day9 doesnt have enough knowledge for casting is just ridicoulous. He loves the game and he also played the game on the competetive level. He is doing an amazing job for community.
Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment.
It's easy for cloud to say that they are terrible, but first you need to sit infront of ~50k viewers and entertain them. I think cloud should try that, and then attack them for "false" fame. Entertain people is possibly the hardest job out there, make them laugh, make them enjoy watching. I really don't get this.
There was a time back in Brood War when ClouD was a hugely respected Italian Protoss player. He was affectionately dubbed "the cookie monster" and was the first player to win against a team melee team in TL Attack.
Now, his views are just, kind of outdated.
Being popular in SC2 or any scene is part working hard, part working smart, and part luck. Hard work alone isn't enough, you also have to work smart to put yourself into positions where you are visible.
On May 02 2012 19:21 MadDog` wrote: Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment.
I think the most entertainment casts for most people where those at the homestory cup where the pro players were casting games. That can't be a coincidence
On May 02 2012 19:21 MadDog` wrote: Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment.
I think the most entertainment casts for most people where those at the homestory cup where the pro players were casting games. That can't be a coincidence
Yeah its been really entertaining when ENTERTAINING and fun pros like MC, Naama or drunken Bling were casting, not when ClouD with the charisma of an brick was casting :D
edit: just to clarify,i respect cloud as a player and maybe his casting in italian is way better and really good, but theres an difference between entertaining every kind of viewer and give reasonable analysis or dry in-depth analysis,which will keep casual players or people that dont even play at all away.
it's stupid to think that casuals will not be attracted by good in depth analysis (while maintaning a fun and charming cast) if a casual see's the depth of the game, he can get amazed by what's possible and this shows him that it's not just random like he thinks it is in silver league.
no one likes to invest much time in something that seems random.
On May 01 2012 23:46 yoigen wrote: Totally agree with him, except that I think Apollo is by far the best caster(and one of the best observers) right now and I don't like catspyjamas.
Bashing day9, then saying that Khaldor is a good caster -_- I don't know I think it kills the legitimacy of the video right there. EDIT: Oh wait saw the rest and I agree. But I still don't like khaldor as a caster. And Day9 spend most of his time producing sc2 content so I wouldn't say the money he get is entirely undeserved.
i think that he is mainly pointing out that casters tend to make statments that are just incorrect or shaky at best. concidently i like cloud like tb mainly as a play by play caster but also because he dosent act like he knows everything about the game. There times when i watch casts and i literally facepalm when casters just make statements that are just incorrect ,ignore key facts (my personal favorite is when they say "X play is on 5 base, Y player is on 3 base") except the 5 bases have no workers.....
the korean commentators are miles ahead mainly because they can be entertaining but also relate what is happening at that moment and its greater significance in the game i.e. what is the consequence of the current action taking place in the wider scope of the overall game.
Pretty much agree with Cloud on most points. Sure, probably a bit harsh about it, but undoubtedly as a pro player it bugs him even more so than anyone else and I'm sure the majority of other progamers feel the same way, especially the underrated players that deserve more attention.
On May 02 2012 20:03 Celadan wrote: Bashing day9, then saying that Khaldor is a good caster -_- I don't know I think it kills the legitimacy of the video right there.
that is probably because khaldor is actively working on his casting, feedback and does fine when casting with others. day9 on the other hand is a great analist but has no synergy whatsoever with whomever, unless you start counting hacks like djwheat?
also he specifically states he respects Khaldor as a play by play caster, not an analytical caster. People listen to the arguments before you make up your mind.
On May 02 2012 20:03 Celadan wrote: Bashing day9, then saying that Khaldor is a good caster -_- I don't know I think it kills the legitimacy of the video right there.
that is probably because khaldor is actively working on his casting, feedback and does fine when casting with others. day9 on the other hand is a great analist but has no synergy whatsoever with whomever, unless you start counting hacks like djwheat?
Why doesn't Cloud start a weekly show where he analyses casts? If Day9 is talking non-sense in a certain situation, you just show the audience and make your point. Thats business right there.
On May 02 2012 20:03 Celadan wrote: Bashing day9, then saying that Khaldor is a good caster -_- I don't know I think it kills the legitimacy of the video right there.
that is probably because khaldor is actively working on his casting, feedback and does fine when casting with others. day9 on the other hand is a great analist but has no synergy whatsoever with whomever, unless you start counting hacks like djwheat?
Calling djwheat a hack? Are you fucking serious?
wouldnt even rate him above orb and when he starts his fake laughing at terrible jokes i'd rather listen to milkies.
On May 01 2012 23:43 amityXixo wrote: Thought about it alot myself. There are so many players which could make they're life easier and get better paid by becoming caster. And so many casters who work a fraction of the time those pro's do and still get better paid. 'Like that ClouD is calling those topics out.
On May 01 2012 23:43 Silo Phylumists wrote: Casters are the cornerstones of the SC2 scene right now. They are the ones conveying excitement and energy to the people watching, this is not a skill everyone has or can learn. On top of that, do you know the schedules from the GSL casters? They work full time. So to say that the casters are leeching off SC2 popularity is plain ignorant.
ClouD mentioned that those gsl casters do they're job good. He "blamed" the "foreigner caster" where its obvious that he didnt' exclude the korean speaking caster but the ones living over there.
So Cloud is a closet racist?
OT: We needforeign casters like the oneswehave now, to attack the foreign crowd. However, they DO act a bit unproffesional at times, But so do the korean casters. So does the players from both regions. I say, give them some space to have fun, since the point of any game/sport/what-ever-hobby-you-have is to have fun.
ALSO: Stop acting like what koreans or other asians says are the gospel truth. Their oppenions do now reign surpreme to american, european or russian openions. And for the love of fucking everyone, We need some equality in this esport:
A. When we are in Korean tournaments like GSL, then every non-korean willbe categorized as "foreigners". B. This should work both ways. When we have a european tournament like DreamHack, Copenhagen Games or The Gathering, then Americans AND Koreans will be the "foreigners". At NASL and MLG, etc, Then Europeans and Koreans should be categorized as "foreigners". C. You guys need to realize, that there is no such thing as an overwhelming difference between the KR, EU and NA ladder or players. The differences exist, but it is no where near as big as people make itup to be.
Of course ClouD is right to some extent. I personally wouldn't be bashing on day[9] - I find his shows informative and well-thought, unless someone points out his mistakes during dailies. But examples of HD - until the topic with feedback was created, are true.
On May 02 2012 19:49 kinglemon wrote: it's stupid to think that casuals will not be attracted by good in depth analysis (while maintaning a fun and charming cast) if a casual see's the depth of the game, he can get amazed by what's possible and this shows him that it's not just random like he thinks it is in silver league.
no one likes to invest much time in something that seems random.
I mostly agree.
In-depth analysis is great even for casuals... unless it only gets presented by someone as energetic and charismatic as for example IdrA (no offense to him. he's probably one of the best analysts out there but, well, i still can't listen to him for long).
I see a great casting future for people like TLO or Sheth (or as already existing example Grubby) because they have great in-depth insight but also have the natural charisma and personality to draw in the viewers and make the cast enjoyable. One without the other will never work. That is why dual casts will always be superior to solo casts (and i still dream of a triple cast of TB,dApollo and TLO), they can far more easily provide both analysis and charisma, even better if one or both casters have an excess of both attributes.
As for ClouDs argument about casters earning more money for less work... it is not wrong but quite exaggerated. Yes, there are casters who don't work 40h a week and still earn more money than "60h a week practice" progamers. Eventually, those <40h casters will disappear and the >40h casters will stay.
On another note, money for casters is a lot less "available" than for players. There are 10 tournaments every single day which progamers can use to earn money and which usually get casted by casters that don't earn non-ad-related money from it. It's not a lot of money per tournament but it sums up to quite a lot every month. The "big" casters (Day9,Husky,...) only cast about 1 event every month, sometimes even less, sometimes a little more. A lot like seasonal work, they have to make sure the money is enough to sustain them for some time in which they might not get to cast another event, so they have to charge more money due to the unreliable nature of their work. Sure, they have other sources of income - Youtube, stream subscribers, ... - but then, progamers get money from their teams and - in many cases - streams, too.
Inside the Game got it right in response to this. Listen to iNcontroL. Guy knows what he's talking about. IdrA calling SC2 shit to Painuser's face provided a lot of lolz as well!
ClouD is very good at whining about things, he does it a lot. In fact... I can't remember seeing or hearing anything from ClouD where he didn't whine about someone or something.
I think ClouD is a decent player but he really should keep his mouth shut because only nonsense comes out of it.
Even if you don't like Clouds way of iniciating topics and blaming some people personally, he's making good points. To present the game correctly is so important and there is so much room for most of the casters to improve. Professionalism isn't only to wear a jacket and remember the sponsors correctly. You have to understand what you are talking about and to know how to explain things and delivering some true emotions to the audience.
On May 02 2012 20:39 DrHiggins wrote: Inside the Game got it right in response to this. Listen to iNcontroL. Guy knows what he's talking about. IdrA calling SC2 shit to Painuser's face provided a lot of lolz as well!
Yeah, they did a good job discussing this without stirring up too much controversy about this topic.
first thing to point out is that if cloud was any good at strategical thinking, he would understand why casters are so popular right now and that the things are about to change in near future; but he isn't- and no wonder why he acts as our european desrow, acting as a pro and still being amazingly awful player
secondly, his only way to drag attention to himself is to complain- same thing occured when he posted that topic about serious delays in paying out winnings- he basically should be the least interested person as the one who barerly won anything and still bitched here and there the most (not questioning that it was the right decision to bring this topic to the public)
ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make.
1: The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges.
2: Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works.
3: Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster. Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count.
4: He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail!
Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary.
You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all.
Disclaimer: I picked PainUser and Day9 purely as an example to show the difference between a top-tier caster and a 'lower' tier caster. I'm not saying PainUser is bad at casting, nor do i know how much Day9 makes. It's just to illustrate the concept of competition between casters.
5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore.
According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed.
Let's not forget that Destiny got banned for speakning his mind, that's also redicilous. Can't understand why the SC2 community is putting up with this garbage from the mods and bandwagons.
On May 02 2012 19:21 MadDog` wrote: Casters needs to entertain their viewers.. I mean.. It's not like day9 is casting to ClouD, day9 is casting to fans, and I think he has everything needed to do it almost perfectly. 90% of viewers are just casual players, they don't care about the deepest insights of the freakin game, they care about fun, hype, entertainment.
I think the most entertainment casts for most people where those at the homestory cup where the pro players were casting games. That can't be a coincidence
Yeah its been really entertaining when ENTERTAINING and fun pros like MC, Naama or drunken Bling were casting, not when ClouD with the charisma of an brick was casting :D
Are you kidding!? Did you even watch HC? Cloud, Hasu, Socke and probably few more which I forget were all awesome casters(and Hasu and Socke in the least seem like awesome but rather... passive guys). They were just so spot on, and took the cast to a different level. But seeing as you mention MC, Naama and drunk Bling, I suppose you focus extremely much on just being entertained rather than knowing what the players are actually doing/thinking(though both MC and Naama can cast very well, they just usually joked around).
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
On May 02 2012 20:53 JamesBourne wrote: little dogs bark louder than the big ones
first thing to point out is that if cloud was any good at strategical thinking, he would understand why casters are so popular right now and that the things are about to change in near future; but he isn't- and no wonder why he acts as our european desrow, acting as a pro and still being amazingly awful player
secondly, his only way to drag attention to himself is to complain- same thing occured when he posted that topic about serious delays in paying out winnings- he basically should be the least interested person as the one who barerly won anything and still bitched here and there the most (not questioning that it was the right decision to bring this topic to the public)
no off peaceyo
Cloud is GM with a 70%+ win rate, I do not think there is anyone who could exactly call him an awful player, unless you are some next level pro no one knows of?
Still though the clip with Cloud was quite horrible. Hes probably right the casters could learn more about the sc2, but when we watch even the highest level of competition in sc2, the gsl, we see a lot of predetermined timing attacks, not really needing super in depth knowledge of the game.
The problem with Cloud or any player speaking their mind on these subjects is that many casters have generated fanbases and levels of worship that players simply can't compete with. They don't read how dedicated he is to the game they supposedly love, all they see are attacks on casters that they love even more; They will by default defer to what a guy like Day9 says, even if it's completely backwards and wrong. It's almost a losing scenario to even bring it up when you realize these people don't care about the game or its players, they care about the sweaty guy yelling into his microphone
Well I would have to agree with _most_ of what he said.
For example the thing about day9. I think Sean has a different target group, at least in the daily. And in terms of tournaments and casting in general, the best commentating happens, when there's a good analyst (e.g. artosis and imo even better: grubby [the way grubby analyses stuations and explains them is just so very amazing!!]) and a good commentator (e.g. tasteless, as well as day9). That's why we need a skilled "talker" with a nice character paried up with an analyst who has better than only good insight.
It's an extremely strange and sad situation. I think a big part of the problem is most people don't really understand the game so the player's skill and feats aren't as impressive. However a caster can be instantly likable even if they don't have a deep level of game knowledge, which 99 percent don't.
It would be cool if organizes pre-screened a handful of casters or rotate them to try them out instead of just hiring them, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of competition possible. It's pretty embarrassing when the caster is wrong or consistently misses things. Casters really should enhance viewing experience whether it be through having great personality and/or analysis, but they need to bring something to the table, some bring neither; I feel like ClouD is just asking for casters that know what they're talking about. Also, I agree with his top casters - Grubby, Artosis, Apollo, great casters.
On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
On the other hand one could argue that 90% of the casters dont make money at all. There are a few players out there who really understand how to sell themselves and how to provide kind of content. These players (lets call them CatZ and Destiny) are not even medicore, nonetheless they get more viewers and more ad revenue than way better players.
I think that many players out there still dont understand that the crowd wants to be entertained. Just a vocal minority wants to be educated. Which is obviously sad but its a fact. So BronzieJoe who quitted playing himself in season 3 still watches starcraft2, but he most probably isnt interested in Statisctics and numbers. You have to see that from the non professional players side. Hell most people could not even tell the difference between your games and a random high master, just because the differences are so subtile that the average joe doesnt even recognice them. So all comes down to entertainment and viewer numbers represent that quite good.
If I have the choice between your stream and catZ stream I will pick catZ anytime. Not because he is a better player (which he is obviously not.... by far) but because he entertains me better and hell I could not tell where the difference is between his and your play, because its so far above me.
Same is true for casters. For most ppl you just have to provide entertainment (and educational content as bonus for ppl who are interested), thats it. Its kind of sad, but thats how the rest of the world also works.
On May 02 2012 20:53 JamesBourne wrote: little dogs bark louder than the big ones
first thing to point out is that if cloud was any good at strategical thinking, he would understand why casters are so popular right now and that the things are about to change in near future; but he isn't- and no wonder why he acts as our european desrow, acting as a pro and still being amazingly awful player
secondly, his only way to drag attention to himself is to complain- same thing occured when he posted that topic about serious delays in paying out winnings- he basically should be the least interested person as the one who barerly won anything and still bitched here and there the most (not questioning that it was the right decision to bring this topic to the public)
no off peaceyo
wow..is there any way of being more ignorant than this? its disgusting and what has desrow to do with this?
On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
I think that's a good point. It's easy to see how some players could begin to dislike the level of commitment and game knowledge that casters need to have when they compare it to their own, and yet there's still guaranteed money in casting. Most people (casters, pro-gamers, and neither) will agree that casting is much simpler and easier than being a pro-gamer (especially those who have done both jobs, like orb and Artosis), and there are less risks involved. You know you're getting a paycheck at the end of the day, and you know how much you're making. There's far less pressure in that respect.
But at the same time, we still need casters, and there's nothing inherently wrong with becoming a caster... unless you're not doing your job right, which means to continuously look to refine your casting abilities and game knowledge. If you become lazy, you'll get replaced by someone who's a better analyst or more passionate about the game. Many people are still eager to cast games, and they'll jump at the opportunity to take your spot on whatever professional game your hosting.
I would like to hear some casters' input on this topic
The problem is that as progamer you dedicate all your time to game and in the end you are casted by someone who don't know what is going on, telling some random things and still get paid more than you. They don't show respect to game by learning about it, promote themselves without promoting players and teams.
So to casters: Learn what is going on in the game, mention players (FB, twitter,..) , teams, main sponsors
Cloud is quite a hipocrate, whatever shitty salary he makes, he doesn't deserve it as much as 20+ nameless korean code B players, who probably train twice as much as him, and are much better than him. Star casters at least bring viewers, which is of a definite value to the leagues.
I think that you make a lot of good points and I agree with most of your opinions, but if you care I'd suggest you to limit yourself sometimes. Use your common sense: if you keep insisting you'll look like the guy who always complains. Sometimes preconcepts can overcome what someone says, even if your points are valid like in this case. Please don't fall for it.
I bet you have a lot of interesting knowledge about the behind of the scenes of the community, can you speak about something positive in the next vlogs, from time to time? Personally I'd be interested in some stories about BW and how you are planning to overcome your difficulties in TvP. And some insides about yout TvGoody: most of the people are more interested to the 'funny' side of this (currently) onesided competition, but I'm more curious about how can a seasoned player crack under specific circumstances and if you have found a way to overcome it.
I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower. If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
Ret is right. At the end of the day it's the players who make the scene work and grow, not the casters. The casters can make things look better and provide other benefits, but if the scene doesn't protect the players it won't go far away... despite some notable exceptions a player requires some time to refine his skills, but if he doesn't have the money to support his career choice it will last one or two years at best.
@Elp: personally I think that you are wrong because whenever I hear a proplayer like Grubby casting I feel that most of the full time casters should start do more research and a bit less funny atticts because he makes the game look more professional, interesting and serious despite being funny at the same time. I can't see why it shouldn't be this way.
On May 02 2012 20:58 Elp wrote: ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make.
1: The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges.
2: Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works.
3: Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster. Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count.
4: He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail!
Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary.
You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all.
Disclaimer: I picked PainUser and Day9 purely as an example to show the difference between a top-tier caster and a 'lower' tier caster. I'm not saying PainUser is bad at casting, nor do i know how much Day9 makes. It's just to illustrate the concept of competition between casters.
5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore.
According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed.
Anyway, that's how I see it
This post is right on, IMO. One aspect that I want to latch onto quickly is that people are comparing successful casters (casters who already 'won' to use the words of the post) to all progamers. To flip this the other way around, it would be like comparing the top 8 at the GSL to casters that have finally gotten 300 subscribers on their youtube channel and complaining that the players are making too much money. This doesn't make sense. If you begin to consider all of the casters who have struggled to get any attention at all, it may seem a little more balanced.
On May 02 2012 20:58 Elp wrote: ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make.
1: The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges.
2: Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works.
3: Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster. Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count.
4: He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail!
Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary.
You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all.
Disclaimer: I picked PainUser and Day9 purely as an example to show the difference between a top-tier caster and a 'lower' tier caster. I'm not saying PainUser is bad at casting, nor do i know how much Day9 makes. It's just to illustrate the concept of competition between casters.
5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore.
According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed.
Anyway, that's how I see it
This post is right on, IMO. One aspect that I want to latch onto quickly is that people are comparing successful casters (casters who already 'won' to use the words of the post) to all progamers. To flip this the other way around, it would be like comparing the top 8 at the GSL to casters that have finally gotten 300 subscribers on their youtube channel and complaining that the players are making too much money. This doesn't make sense. If you begin to consider all of the casters who have struggled to get any attention at all, it may seem a little more balanced.
Well his point is however that these casters that have already 'won' are just kinda set for life. A lot/most seem to do very minimal work in keeping up to date with current trends, metagame and build orders.
I mean if you compare it to players that have already 'won', they are most certainly not set for life, the best example is probably Jinro, which has been working his ass off for how long exactly? but is still having really hard time keeping up with the rest of the players.
He has a very good point when it comes to the fact that a lot of pro gamers are so unkown, despite being pretty good. In relative comparison, a caster does not have to be as fluent and/or skillful as the player in order to be succesful in the scene. Yes it takes a long time to build up a fanbase, and yes, you need some time to know the game. However, because of the much tougher competition between players as the competition between casters, I can understand that some players can become frustrated. Players like Cloud would highly appreciate to see a caster who at least is equivalent in game-insight.
And I for one wouldn't mind a rise in general game-insight of the casters.
On May 02 2012 20:58 Elp wrote: ClouD is wrong about pretty much every point he´s trying to make.
1: The logic he applies to comparing Casting with Progaming is flawed. His argument is that because players have to work 10h-12h a day, while casters do not, players should make more money than casters. The world doesn't work like that, try looking at 'normal' jobs and you'll see the same thing happening there. Normal employees working hard, managers making a lot of money. ClouD is comparing apples with oranges.
What? In general managers work harder than employees. Anyone who says different has either had bad luck with his managers, or is just trying to spread his anti-capitalistic/leftist/whatever worldview. The point he's trying to make is that with it already being so incredibly hard for a progamer, one would at least expect the casters to do their job properly, he thinks they are not.
2: Another problem with his reasoning is the fact that he states that being a Progamer is a passion or a dream for players. A passion that is not shared by casters, and there for they should make less money. Now, i can agree on the lack of passion in regards to certain casters, but the lack of passion is completely unrelated to financial compensation. If my passion is to sell sand in the desert, does that give me the right to financial compensation? No, again, that's not how the world works.
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3: Furthermore, he underestimates the qualities a caster must have to be successful. He makes it look like every progamer with decent English pronunciation can become a great and successful caster. Being good at casting requires a very different skill set than progaming. Obviously it helps to have expert knowledge on the game, but that's absolutely no guarantee you will be a good caster. Also, there is a huge leap between being a good caster and being a successful caster. I can be a great caster, upload my stuff to Youtube and 12 people will watch it. You must not forget it takes a lot of time and effort to build up the viewer count.
Yet in the end the competition is nowhere near as fierce as in competitive gaming. Casters work together more often than against each other. Want to know why a lot of progamers don't post in strategy forums? It's not only because of less time to train and having to deal with know-it-all scrubs, it's also because they are in a direct competition with each other, and if the standard build in a match up has a major weakness you know about, awesome! Why the hell would you let everyone know about it? (slightly OT) The metagame as perceived by the majority of the sc2 community is actually always a bit behind the actual metagame on (high level) ladder (because the pro players are always constantly thinking of how to play in a better fashion).
4: He claims casters can't lose, while players can. This logic is flawed because it is aimed at pro-casters who have already won. They won by providing content that people liked to watch and by building a fan-base. Those casters COULD have failed, and i'll tell you that for every successful caster there are probably dozens who failed, you just never heared of them (because they failed and didn't attract an audience). It's easy for ClouD to make this comparision because the concept of failure for a player is so much more clear than it is for casters, that doesn't mean casters can't fail!
You're right, but you're disregarding the fact that as a player you invest far more than you ever would as a caster. If you were to take the top ~300 guys of a server (gm/rank isn't accurate), they all have invested thousands and thousands of hours into the game. And yet very few will get a monetary reward out of it. What did the failed casters do; make 5 VODs which nobody liked and then stop? Point being, it's much, much harder for a player than a caster. What I think cloud means to say is that casters should be critized more for being wrong. He could also just be bitter.
Implying casters can't lose also implies there is no competition. I think ClouD couldn't be more wrong on this one. There is much more room in the community for good SC2 players than there is for good SC2 casters. I think we would all like to see hundreds of professional SC2 gamers, do we want to see hundreds of professional SC2 casters? No, that's completely unnecessary.
I sincerely doubt there are so many people trying to become sc2 casters.
You also have to consider the fact that there is a huge difference in income between casters. According to PainUser (inside the game, episode 40) he could make more money by flipping burgers at burgerking. That's the result of competition right there. Think of a tournament organization that has to pick between PainUser or Day9 as caster, both charge the same amount. Who will they pick? Obviously it's going to be Day9, since his fan-base is much bigger. There for, PainUser has to charge less for casting or else he wouldn't have a job at all.
I agree.
5: ClouD is somewhat annoyed by casters who are, from the pro-gamer perspective, 'bad'. This might be a little harsh for pro-gamers to hear, but their opinion on the quality of casters is not important. Why? Because pro-gamers are not the audience the caster is trying to reach. The average viewer doesn't require a caster that has perfect understanding of the game, just SOME understanding. Obviously more expert knowledge is better, but once it passes a certain level it doesn't matter anymore.
According to ClouD, Apollo's understanding of the game 'could be better'. Being an average viewer myself, I can assure you Apollo's understanding of the game is more than enough for me to be impressed.
Anyway, that's how I see it
I agree to a certain extent. It's impossible for a caster to know more than a real progamer, but that doesn't mean casters shouldn't try to (ala rotterdam).
On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
Times haven't changed all that much unless you're on certain teams that have good sponsorship and you have a big enough name that they have no other option? ;o
Here's the thing. A lot of the Western players I see wouldn't truly qualify for what I believe a pro gamer represents. They clog other holes that shouldn't translate into an active roster slot. Even though they put the hours in like other athletes it's still amateur competition. Olympians train around the clock. It becomes their job and at the end of the day they get to represent their countries and go for the gold on the biggest stage of amateur sport.
Unlike our corps who receive a golden ticket based off who they are yet it doesn't translate into money, but they receive invites to other am's and competitions other than the Korean events because they don't fit their criterion. Do you see where I'm going with this? It's a time warp all over again.
They might spend a lot of time practicing and training, but they it doesn't translate into success or consistency for many. They're on the team for primarily marketing & brand recognition. Not because of their moderate success which in some cases went over a decade.
They aren't really players but spokespeople or reps.
There is absolutly zero point in looking at how much casters are gaining for the simple reason than that's how business work.
Do players makes enough money? No, probably not, but there is A LOT of competition, there's a shit ton of good players... and seriously, no one will stop or will start following the scene because of a single player. There is so many of them.
It's the exact opposite for casters. There is not that many good casters and they bring way more fans to the scene than players. So many people started to follow the scene just because of Day9, Husky, TB, Apollo... they brought more money and viewer than any players... actually, probably more than every players together.
In life, you don't get money based on your dedication or your efforts, but based of how much money you worth to the people that are paying you. Point is : casters worth more than players to the scene right now. Way more.
And... cutting the salary of casters will never do any good to the scene. Tournaments or teams will not have more money to offer to players this way. And no one will gain anything from it.
Cloud needs to understand that he is not understand that he is not the end all be all authority on casters. Just because he thinks casters does not make them bad. So you think some casters are bad? Is he now going to make a video on the movies he likes or dislikes? Maybe Cloud will share his wisdom on his favorite juices?
On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
I agree with it conceptually, but if you think about it from the standpoint that only 5-6 casters are on the highest level to perform at the big tournaments they are the only ones making real money. 90% of the players are not on the level to win or even make it to a championship bracket of the biggest tournaments. The highest paid pros are still making good money from winnings (Stephano, GSL winners). If you are incapable of performing and placing at tournaments you shouldn't really be expecting to make that kind of money. Not using you as an example because you do perform well, just my thought on the idea that all pros should get paid well because they Love the game.
On May 03 2012 00:02 MONXY FIST wrote: Cloud needs to understand that he is not understand that he is not the end all be all authority on casters. Just because he thinks casters does not make them bad. So you think some casters are bad? Is he now going to make a video on the movies he likes or dislikes? Maybe Cloud will share his wisdom on his favorite juices?
Is that first sentence of yours supposed to make sense. If you're not interested in Clouds talk, then don't listen, but i even doubt that you watched the video, as it is much cooler to just disrespect him anyways.
I don't agree with Cloud at all. He missed the ball completely. The fans and the watchers are who make Sc2 popular and better by bringing in sponsors. Flash would be completely useless and unimportant if there were nobody to watch it and bring in sponsors. And good casters make games more interesting for viewers and are critical for viewers that are not players. Those will never care about Flash level of mechanics if a good caster cannot explain it to them.
But compared to mainstream sports Sc2 is still poor. I bet Cloud looks at sports like football and tennis when he makes comparison which is not a valid comparison because compared to those sports Sc2 is totally unimportant.
On May 02 2012 09:40 Hot_Bid wrote: Just watched this, and Cloud comes off very bitter and angry that people seem to be getting more recognition and money than who he believes should be.
I think this is a symptom of a lot of top players feeling that somehow it's really easy to make it as a caster, when it's actually quite difficult. There's only a few major tournaments and they all go after the same guys, there are only a handful of casters who can make a fulltime living out of it and can consistently get the top jobs. Casting, when compared to playing, has just fewer available positions. We never hear about the hundreds of youtube nobodies who fail because they are never recognized, we only see Day and Wheat and Artosis and the guys who are successful. It's kind of natural and expected that a lot of players don't seem to recognize just how hard it is to "make it" as a caster in this industry.
So while yes, some players may be better casters if they took up casting full time, it's still a very simplistic and misguided thing to say. You can't just say you'd be better than someone if you practiced and did it full time, because a lot of the hard work of being a caster is doing it consistently, getting recognized, and marketing yourself as a caster. The hard part is not doing one cast at a random tournament, it's building your name and living off it for years by grinding through hours of casts. It'd be as ridiculous as Day9 saying he could win MLG if he quit casting and practiced 12 hours a day. The hard part is not the potential to do something fulltime, but the actual doing it.
As for the offhand comment about TLO, in general I think there are very few players outside Korea who treat this game like a true job. That means practicing to your full potential and doing everything you can to get better, like a real professional athlete. I think that the popularity and fan component of being a progamer is very important. It might not fit with what some fans feel is "appropriate" for a pro gamer, but it is nevertheless the reality. I agree that as a pro you have to have a baseline level of skill that allows you to be competitive and relevant.
But if Cloud really feels that players aren't getting enough recognition as casters, he should really appreciate players like TLO and Grubby who have huge followings because they do a great job interacting with fans and marketing themselves. I think its interesting that he lists a bunch of players who practice hard and get lots of wins but don't get as much recognition, and he sees this as unfair. Is it unfair? There are players who spend hours with fans, make blogs, interact on twitter, make videos, etc. There are players who don't. You don't become a big name in SC2 by just winning, unless you're NesTea or MVP, who literally do the bare minimum when it comes to showing up and playing. Do you know how popular these guys would be if they worked even a fraction of how hard TLO works at getting fans? Until you're winning multiple GSLs, you're forced to ride your personality or style a bit too.
The problem is Cloud somehow sees this work (at fan interaction, marketing) as illegitimate, whether you're a caster or a player. He doesn't see it as "deserved" recognition. But it is. Players work hard at it and it's a difficult process. If it was so easy then every player would be doing it, Cloud included. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking players choose not to get more fans, because it's simply not easy to put yourself out there and do all this popular marketing stuff about yourself every day. Players don't want to be bothered with this stuff. A lot of times they are lazy. They don't like to write blogs, make appearances, make videos, interact with fans all the time. Some simply just don't have the personality for it.
So really, stop blaming circumstances or the unfairness of the SC2 fan universe when really the responsibility lies with the individual player. If you want more recognition like casters have or fan-popular players have, go work for it.
Was just about to type pretty much this.
The idea that a caster enjoys casting 10+ hours a day and tweeting, facebooking, networking nonstop is ludicrous. That's hard friggin work. Sure you can do it with a smile on your face but so can you when training as a pro player.
It's all about the attitude you have towards your job. I hope that this is just a negative day you had mr Cloud because if these thoughts are constantly in your head and venting at others is your approach to the game, then I don't see you ever reaching your full potential.
On May 03 2012 00:02 MONXY FIST wrote: Cloud needs to understand that he is not understand that he is not the end all be all authority on casters. Just because he thinks casters does not make them bad. So you think some casters are bad? Is he now going to make a video on the movies he likes or dislikes? Maybe Cloud will share his wisdom on his favorite juices?
Is that first sentence of yours supposed to make sense. If you're not interested in Clouds talk, then don't listen, but i even doubt that you watched the video, as it is much cooler to just disrespect him anyways.
Of course i watched the video, why else would i comment on it? The first 5 minutes was just cloud bashing people who he thinks are "bad". Of course i also loved the TLO comments. I don't really have an issue with the rest of the video but the part where he talks about the casters specifically was so childish and unprofessional i couldn't take the rest of his video seriously. Its how i expect teenage girls to act not professional gamers.
I feel kind of bad even writing here for the second time because of the not deserved attention this topic is getting. Still, I want to say Cloud is very average player and him saying some casters do not deserve what they are making is just ironic coming from him with his level of play. He thinks he deserves more than casters simply because he know the game more than a caster. This is almost a stupid view. Casters =/= players. It is not the same thing! If you think the input of caster to the community and to the e-sport, you can see why they make more. I find it extremely fair that casters are making more money than players.
If one looks at broodwar scene, I bet no caster is making more than flash why??? because flash's input is much larger than any caster. In sc2, especially in USA, casters such Day9's impact is much more than any other player so they make more. Without HD and Husky's youtube videos I would be here now. So simple. This video is just whining from an average player. I mean he could have easily make the same point for any other occupation who makes more than him and work less than 12 hours a day... geeeeeez.
On May 02 2012 19:49 kinglemon wrote: it's stupid to think that casuals will not be attracted by good in depth analysis (while maintaning a fun and charming cast) if a casual see's the depth of the game, he can get amazed by what's possible and this shows him that it's not just random like he thinks it is in silver league.
no one likes to invest much time in something that seems random.
I mostly agree.
In-depth analysis is great even for casuals... unless it only gets presented by someone as energetic and charismatic as for example IdrA (no offense to him. he's probably one of the best analysts out there but, well, i still can't listen to him for long).
On May 02 2012 19:49 kinglemon wrote: it's stupid to think that casuals will not be attracted by good in depth analysis (while maintaning a fun and charming cast) if a casual see's the depth of the game, he can get amazed by what's possible and this shows him that it's not just random like he thinks it is in silver league.
no one likes to invest much time in something that seems random.
I mostly agree.
In-depth analysis is great even for casuals... unless it only gets presented by someone as energetic and charismatic as for example IdrA (no offense to him. he's probably one of the best analysts out there but, well, i still can't listen to him for long).
true. he casts like a rock.
I'm certainly not an Idra fan, but whenever he cast I'm absolutly loving it. One of the best playercasters arround.
After watching Cloud's Vlog and listening to ItG, I myself believe that the competition among casters needs to be more intense to improve the overall casting and provide commentating that lives up to high standards.
To me it seems, and some people already talked about it in here, that once you have gained a certain reputation as a caster - be it through luck or hard work - you can build on this reputation for a long time without putting any more effort into it.
People are right when they point out that HD for instance has done a lot to attract viewers and has thus helped the cause of SC2 and esports. But we are currently at a point where the community is established and we do not learn the game anymore. but want to understand its depth as well as possible while being entertained. We are not "noobs" anymore and SC2 has 1,5 years of exploration and evolution on its back. And this implies that the standards for casting have increased. So it is great if you have done a lot during beta and the early stages of SC2, but this merit should not guarantee you a job as a caster at big tournaments if you are plainly not good enough for it compared to other casters which have shown up on the scene.
There are probably a couple of examples where this is the case. I feel a bit bad saying this, because I think he is a very likeable person, but Tasteless is to me an example where a caster profits from his past achievements and has reached a status where nobody dares to question his place as a commentator because he is such a big community figure. He is not a bad caster and very experienced, but to be honest, if Tasteless had started casting SC2 when it came out without really being known, I highly doubt he would be in that seat next to Artosis. This scene has produced so many great casters, which are either good play-by-play or coulor commentators, that could easily replace Tasteless and probably even improve the overall experience. The best showcase of this was Artosis' cast with Wolf which was outstanding. It was entertaining, exciting and educative at the same time. A casting duo which truely deserves to commentate on the most prestegious SC2 tournament in the world. The question is: Does the community cling to its viewing habits and wants to stick with Tastosis? Furthermore, would GOM dare to replace Tasteless by someone else? (I don't want claim I speak for everyone, but this is how I see it)
Now look at players. Competition is in the nature of the game. You won a championship? Gratz. Go back to practicing, because if you don't you are going to be competed away. That's it. For casters it seems, once you made it, you only need to do your job decently to solidify your position. And this is not how it is supposed to work. Casters should also be entitled to work to sustain their position and to me it seems some of them are not trying to improve their casting at all, yet trying to keep up with the metagame.
However there are great examples of how amazing casting can be and I believe that if casters provide top-notch casting they should be rewarded for it. But just like players, they should get nothing for free.
On May 02 2012 03:24 CarelessPride wrote: totally agree 100%. idk why the fuck is everyone thinking cloud is jealous of the casters. I think hes bothered by the fact that players work so hard to get to where they are and get payed so little. Yet most casters who are fortunate enough to be given a large salary and fame don't even give enough fuck a to even learn about the game. i think theres a difference between being jealous and frustration due to being under appreciated.
What makes you think the current casters haven't sacrificed anything? The majority of them have invested a huge portion of their time into the game. Tasteless for example dropped out of college with only one semester left (to graduate) in order to cast for gom even if it was for the previous generation of the game.
Day9 also has sacrificed a lot for the community such as his pro gaming career. After he graduated with his degree he could have went right back to practicing and going pro in SC2 but he instead decided to continue with dailies. A lot of people have asked him why he doesnt go pro again. He answered this on stream once saying he'd have to quit doing everything like dailies and casting just to go back to practicing 16 hours a day like he did when he was a BW pro. He also said he'd like to go back if he could. But instead he's putting the community and esports over himself.
And Cloud should just be happy someone from blizzard is actually doing something in the SC2 community like Rob Simpson or is it better that blizzard just doesn't have someone even close to esports that actually goes out and represents the company in esports?
Like I'd honestly like to see Day9 quit doing dailies for like 3 months to go practicing for the 16 hours he used to just to completely destroy this kid. Cause I bet this is just some QQ to get attention.
And the time he spent recording this he could be practicing to get better.
PS I hope he doesn't chicken out against TLO and I hope TLO smashes him if they have a show match
I agree with some of the things he said that some casters severely lacking in knowledge but still have more recognition and money when compared to majority of players.
But their knowledge are not the only thing they are bringing to the table , casters job is not just to analyze the game they have to make it interesting or even entertaining and most important of all is that they have to make it accessible to new players/spectators.
I don’t like Husky and totalbiscuit casting now as both of them seems to be behind in the meta-gaming and lacking in general knowledge ( I am high master random player) , nevertheless I understand their appeal as a caster to new players.(I was a fan of Husky and HD when I was new to the game) And guess what? Most spectators are diamond or below , the last thing we want is to alienate the majority of the audience.
You can call SC2 whatever you want , competitive gaming, E-sport . But at the end of the day what it is to the sponsors are a form of entertainment. These casters get audience and that’s the bottom line, it doesn’t matter how they get them (there are reality shows that starred people with worst or no qualification at all)
As for your comment on day9 and TLO , I think its uncalled for . Day9 is more then qualified to be named as one of the best casters from his viewership and fans that he brings to E-sport. But he still works harder then most and have an impressive knowledge of the game (being GM in all 3 races). I do felt that some of his daises are lackluster as of late but that's just my preference not a fact. TLO may not garner as much success as of late but he still someone that people look up for, a prime example for people's branding.
You want more fans and recognition ? Interact with them , It really does goes a long way to say hi to your fans , adopt a persona if you want (do we really believe that Idra as a player and Greg is one and the same?).
for god sake don’t just sit in front of your web cam and whine People may brand this guy as being honest, in my opinion he is just a negative passive aggressive person that may suffers Asperger syndrome
At least viewers of HomestoryCup saw that Cloud like to disagree with other casters. But I think he was really boring and not the better placed to say that.
ITT: I learn that ¨tweeting¨ and ¨facebooking¨ is a hard job.
Come on guys! If you are going to mention the hard work casters do at least mention all the video editing, long hours at tournaments and (hopefully they do this) research.
Also one thing that people need to keep in mind is that players are the ones giving the content, casters are only a nice addition.As popular as Day9 is if suddenly all top players decided to not play people will probably don´t want to watch(well not as many people anyways) randoms playing randoms. Even if Day9 or whoever the most popular caster is casting it.
I do understand why so many pros feel that way, they are actually the ones who provide the content. Which is why someone like TB is so good, he tries to give back and support pro players.
That being said its Ok for top casters to make more money than average players, the worrying thing is when average players make more than average players. In a sport the Players and teams should be the highlight of the show.
putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind. and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve. artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving. but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel
Anyone has a free choice what he is doing. Earn money for "playing" a game is still awesome. Imagine this 15 years ago... I work 8-10h a day, like mostly everyone here i guess. I still get payed bad because iam in my trail time, (takes 3 years). And after this iam still in the same office, on the same country. Cant travel arround, playing my favourite game meet people all over the world and have awesome expiriences.
Actually i could cry if a progamer is whining about money. If i would play 8 h a day i guess i would play on a same Level. Like alot of people would do with a lil bit talent. Of course its hard work, but crying about caster getting more money about pro gamers is a joke.
in reallife i know alot people doing less than me earning 3- 5 times the money i do. (even if i would finished my trail time) i would rather play some hours on a event, even if i loose and take the expirience and the good time, than casting 5-8h a event all weekend long.
Gamer and Casters are very important, and get the facts straight, life is not fair. Stop crying work harder. (remember rocky in his last movie lol)
First, think of what we should expect from casters.
They tell us everything that is going on, because we can't look around the map. This is mainly covered by the observing, but the casters help draw attention to important details. Having a dedicated observer helps tremendously.
They should analyse the game and provide insight into what is happening, what the players are thinking, and foreshadow what will happen.
They don't have to be correct 100% of the time, but they should never be outright wrong. I think this is what stands out most between casters with good game insight and those with bad. Bad casters will confidently talk about what they think is happening in the game and they are just absolutely wrong. Good casters will be right most of the time, and when they're a little bit off the mark, they can offer explanations for why. When the player makes a surprising move (wins a battle he should have lost, or loses a battle he should have won, or makes an incredible tactical maneouvre) that would have been impossible to predict, it defies the caster's expectation. Not because the caster was wrong, but because the players are ballers, and this is the time for the caster to drum up excitement and enthusiasm. This is the other part of the caster's job - make the game exciting. With bad casters, they are wrong on so many occasions that every engagement is a surprise and a flurry of false excitement. This takes attention away from the moves that are actually exciting and important.
When you watch pro gamers casting, they hit every nail on the head, consistently. When you look at how wrong and confused some casters are and then watch a decent pro player cast a game, it's almost how insulting how big the difference in understanding is. But many of them lack the charisma or personality or energy to give a really good cast. When a surprise happens, the pros say something like "oh. that was a really cute move, I didn't expect that", but the top casters would be screaming.
You know what I think? Pro players may practice 10-12 hours a day to achieve the level of game insight they have. Casters shouldn't need to be pro players. But casters should work with the pros regularly. Take lessons or buy coaching from them. Up your game play. If you're not capable of getting to master's league, do you really think everyone wants to hear you guessing about what you think could happen? Or if you don't think that will help, instead of having them coach you on playing, have them coach you on casting. Send a bundle of replays to a pro and cast the games together without an audience. Listen to what the pro says, how the pro thinks, and learn. djWheat is an awesome dude, and a fun caster, and he's always the first to admit that he knows nothing about the game compared to the players. He often talks about how much he learned by casting the EG master's cup alongside the EG players. Keep doing it. All caster's should be doing it, in order to learn.
wellcome to the real world. Casters' situation may be a bit better than the one of the pros but if you look at it like its just a job well its not that good really. Its not the casters that are previlaged its the pros whos situation really sucks. The answer is esports haven't developed well enough to guarantee pros the ammount of fame and money they deserve. The situation with casters has very little to do with it.
There are many mis-representations of Cloud's arguments in this thread. He is not arguing for some strict meritocracy where hours of work put in directly equals pay. His argument is that there are pro-gamers who are legitimately good at their job who are ignored whereas many casters who are slightly to extremely bad at theirs get paid more and get more attention. He is not arguing Artosis should get paid less than Empire.Happy because he puts in less sc2 hours in total. He's just asserting that casters who are straight up horrible and lazy should get paid less than happy
There is no question that Apollo is better than Khaldor. Better player (in fact, better as random than Khaldor playing Z), WAY better observer, stronger command of English language, overall more knowledgeable, much better at explaining things that lower level players may have trouble understanding.
There are many mis-representations of Cloud's arguments in this thread. He is not arguing for some strict meritocracy where hours of work put in directly equals pay. His argument is that there are pro-gamers who are legitimately good at their job who are ignored whereas many casters who are slightly to extremely bad at theirs get paid more and get more attention.
That happens all over the world
Dennis MacAlistair Ritchie was amazing, yet Im sure most ppl have to Google who he was and what he did.
Paris Hilton is awful, yet Im sure most ppl know her.
Awful person gets more attention, more publicity and the other guy is relatively unknown.
I think this all is just a symptom of the fact there is not enough variety in the caster lineups of the major tournaments.
Whatever i watch as so called major events, its the same 5-10 guys all along. And on some tournaments it feels (as a viewer) like they spend more time at the afterwork party than actually casting. This ofcourse again a symptom that having a well known caster lineup will definitely draw more viewership and hence more profits.
How to improve that i dont know really,. but it is a really good timing in 2012 since there is so much more events that need coverage. But in the end it is a task of us the community to embrace new casters and not turn them away by stupid comments and witchhunts. Make them welcome, improve and give the old club a run for their money. Recent acquisitions of Frodan and Kaelaris are the right way to go, now let me hope that the Zedds, the Lyrlians, the Vasas are being recognized and some tournaments offer them more opportunities.
Most of the players have little to no personality. So the majority of the ones I care about are the ones with results. Which are a very small number. Whereas the casters make things entertaining. Players aren't important. They're a commodity at this point, because esports is so small and the salaries so low. Games also come and go, whereas casters can switch games pretty easily.
I don't get why we are hating on our casters. The problem I see in the sc2 community is there are no up and coming casters and we get the same people over and over. Playercast is probably my favorite type of casting, and of course exprogamers such as Tastosis and Day9 are what the true requirements of being a high level caster should be. If there are people who believe casting is easy, they should try it out, its pretty tough skill to have, to talk in game the entire time even when nothing is going on. The reason why we see pro players do so well at it, is of course they know the game very well and are able to give sweet insights. But there is no way a player can simultaneously cast and play because in order to compete at the highest you can only do one...
On May 03 2012 02:54 MorroW wrote: putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind. and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve. artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving. but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel
This is a different way of putting what I believe to be the issue. SC2 has evolved, casters have mostly not. There needs to be more competition among casters so that they have an incentive to constantly improver their casting AND knowledge. If you as a caster can't be kicked off your throne because you are the holy cow of the community, then this is something to worry about. You can't feed on your past merits for your whole career. Nobody can do that. Everyone has to constantly work his/her ass off to remain competitive, so why should casters be the exception?
I don't know how much competitive pressure there is among casters. A few requirements have to be met: 1.) There are enough upcoming casters. 2.) Tournaments have to recognize them and give them a chance to prove themselves. This includes daring to replace casters who gained a certain status. 3.) The community has to give honest and as unbiased as possible feedback. A caster "being around since forever" or "having done a lot for the community" is not enough to allow him to commentate big tournaments. Judgement should be based on current performance.
I believe that these things are important to see improvement among casters.
Good casters are more rare than good players. Demand for good casters is inelastic and thus they can charge more than almost any player can.
People like Artosis and Day9 dedicate their entire life to this game and the industry that surrounds it. Not every player puts in a 100+ hour work week, nor does every caster, but the ones on both sides who do WILL see the results of such efforts. This is the reality of our state of affairs. It is not sad at all, merely based in work ethic and economics. In fact, these are good troubles to have, as esports is at a point where we can support such drama.
I don't know if this has been said before (didn't want to read 29 pages are stuff), but one of the main reasons casters are more well known is because in main events they are on stage for large portions of time. The players on the other hand, you see them play and for maybe an hour at the most you see them (of course they do play more than one game in a day). So overall, casters get more "facetime" if you will with the community. People are able to connect better with someone who they can here talk and see for longer periods of time. It also seems that the more popular players are the ones who stream more. This is because more people can see who they are and they have greater connection with their fans and the community. So yes, it may be not that great that players get less money than the casters, as players probably (not necessarily though) put more time into the game, but people can see more of the work that casters do, as it is almost always streamed or put on youtube.
an interesting topic and not something ive thought of before, my personal thoughts on it are somewhat mixed, i think the casters have definitely brought some attention to sc2, but i do agree that there is a higher player:caster ratio and in general casters are more 'known' than players are
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: Casters are not the ones who are truly most passionate about the game, they are not the ones practicing 10h a day to make all this possible. They are never under heavy pressure, because all they have to do is commentate a game. Their career is not affected by win or loss.
I would be interested what the community thinks about this topic. I feel like most people don't even realize that such a problem exists, but maybe I am wrong.
the guys who made the game "make all this possible". and the kind of deal Morhaime has been able to strike with publishers (Activision, Davidson etc) over the years allowing him to fund projects taht take 4+ years to complete and include the kind of post sales support that is very rare in the quick turnover flash in the pan industry video games have become.
if a broadcaster can make a game "compelling" to millions of average people the way Bob Costas or Dan Shulman can summarize a tense situation in a baseball game then that is worth a lot.
essentially casters are the "salesmen" of eSports... they bring in the cash.
The reason pro players need a team and so forth is the same reason championship fighters rely on a promoter to bring in the cash. Generally the promoter takes a huge piece of the purse.
Vince Mcmahon, Don King, and Dana White take a lot more from their "athletes" than SC2 casters take from teh over all money pool that is eSports.
Cloud needs to get acquainted with the real world.
ClouD touches upon a real issue which is that of incentive for the casters to improve. As it stands, the big/popular casters are largely those who were already big. They get the big gigs continually and thus is gone the need to actually keep up with the scene to the degree they used to. It's this perpetuation, cycling of the same casters that I (think) ClouD is getting at
Now I am aware of the commercial interests of tournaments being reliant on such casters to bring in the viewers, otherwise they'd not shell out the cash for them. I'm not a moron I do 'get it', however it's stifling new blood coming through, imo.
In addition fanboys of certain casters don't help either, not necessarily with their support of a figure, but in their dislike of new blood. Now I'm not a massive fan of Orb's casting, but at least he works hard at it and he got thrown under the bus post racism row in a manner that I cannot imagine would ever happen to Day9 et al.
Double standards and popularity contests may have grown this community to where it's at today, and continue to keep it on the level, but long term I think it'll lead to a stagnation in the Western scene, I really do.
Dj Wheat himself said during the last inside the game of 2011 that if he had to take down someone a notch in popularity he wished tastosis would be taken down a notch because he found the fact that they were earning so much money and the prize pools for the tournament were so small in comparison. Just imagine that the casters are making more money than the first place the tournaments. Whenever they attend a tourney, THEY HAVE ALREADY WON.
I dont really get how he can say that day9 overanalyzes (as if this is a bad thing) and on the other say that he does not offer enough insight as others. I feel like cloud may have a bit of bias to euro casters but then again i have my own bias to day9. One thing that bothers me though is that it seems he does not realize that there is a reason that day9 offers so much credit for random shit, it's because he's trying to help the community. By making all decisions made seem to have a point and a complex strategy/motive behind them day9 improves the perception of e-sports. Day9 is too nice of a person (IMO) to offer harsh criticizm of some players like TLO or Select that are honesty not good, although of note he has talked about how Goody is pretty bad and still beats nestea.
I am still unclear, is ClouD saying that (1) the casters are bad for the most part, full stop or (2) its unfair that bad casters get paid way more money than bad players or (3) bad casters make bad calls which make 'good players' look 'bad'??
Is he worried that the money that goes to the painusers (a caster cloud calls out) of the world should go instead to the Cloud's of the world or that the painusers of the world make it harder for the consumers to appreciate the skills of players? Are there players out there who are 'good' but who get a bad rep from casters? Is the fact that now almost *every* caster calls idra on his rage/early gg/'lack of mental toughness' having any effect on Idra's marketability? Did the fact that Khaldor call out Destiny [in the context that Khaldor believes that some Koreans dont understand how someone as, in their words, "mediocre" as Destiny gets way more viewers than good koreans] somehow diminish the number of viewers Destiny gets?
Seems like the caster market was the ultimate free market when the game came out. Tastosis dominated it and day9 built himself up a pretty neat little niche that he extended into a veritable empire of content. And people who were established in other games had a fair shot at getting a popular following as well [thinking roterdam here].
But others had their chance too, so its not like Day9 or Husky somehow use their malevolent powers of manipulation to force anyone to pay them anything to cast games. It just happened to be the case that Husky and HD and some other guys were casting things during beta and that this fame built up carried them forward. Being the first or the first few casters has a tremendous advantage in establishing your fan base. I used to watch a couple of other youtube casters too but in the end I dont have the time/interest to follow them all so whoever happens to be on TL broadcast thingy is the guy who 'gets my business' even though realistically its the content creators, the players, who I watch and I can even watch them on mute.
What this really is about is filtering. Lets say you have become rich and you want to make SC2 tournaments. Now you have two options when deciding who will cast it: invite established casters who you can reasonably estimate will bring in their own fans/have shown a degree of competency based on the sheer experience of casting things for the last 2 years,
have some sort of open audition system wherein anyone who wants to cast is allowed to cast one game and then the most popular guy moves on
or some sort of hybrid.
Well, unless you are really dedicated to the development of amazing casters or believe in some sort of ethical standard of fairness that says everyone who wants it should be given a chance you will go with the easiest to implement, which is hiring an established caster. Basically all the 'famous casters' are 'good enough', and its hard to imagine that anyone actually stops watching a game because a 'bad' caster like painuser [ClouD's words] is the one casting. In the end when you are given a choice between watching Stephano vs Korean Player at IPL 5 or watching Tastosis cast round 64 of GSL what will you tune into? Of course it will be painuser!
All in all then, is the system of identifying and promoting casters fair? Not really. Does it matter that much? No, not really. As for the purists who demand the best of the best to cast *every* game then here is a simple solution, wait another year or two when incontrol finally gives up the dream of a pro career and switches into casting full time and enjoy. The fact of the matter is for 'novice' viewers, the most important characteristic is charisma. And for the 'expert' viewers, well couldnt they really watch the game without any casting and still enjoy it?
As a player? As a foreigner player who wins tournaments? You can act like the biggest asshole (and we have so many of them...just to mention Nainwa) in universe and not many care about it. They will get hyped up cause wining is everything. What is harder? Always watch how you act or just wining games? Trying to make the 5 mio. 4gate vs 4gate interesting to viewers or just play the 4gate as an example. I prefer watching replays and to be serious, I watch all replays from a tournament and i skip a lot if i see simple all Ins, i dont even care if he won or not with it. But as a caster? You have to cast this and make it entertaining, and this is so fucking hard.
And what i see, a lot of players who dont have any chance to win something getting sponsored and they are not even in any spot to play for the tournament win. And this is truly amazing! And Cloud is an example for it. He has his point but he forgets the other side i think. If casters make to much, he should just change to caster and lets try it. There are less casters who can live from it then players. And they have to entertain people to get money, players dont have to do this, they have just to win. It does not matter if a guy just 1/1/1 his way to tournament win. He gets fame and money for it. But as a boring caster you are out.
Well wrote to much, but i hope people get my point. Just to mention TobiWan, he makes even the most boring Dota2 game absolutely entertaining. And dota is much harder to cast then sc2 in my eyes. Just this added, cant wait to hear about it in all sc2 pod casts on earth. Cloud you should take some money for bringing this up (again). sry for bad english
SC2 casters are so painfully bad for the most part. They make me cringe when I hear them. I can stand Tastosis, Day 9, Incontrol, apollo but almost all of the rest are woefully incompetent.
I have been warned in the past for being harsh about casters so I'll just say I agree with Cloud -- I think the state of casting is, in general, dismal.
Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam are consistently informative, funny and knowledgeable. More or less everyone else comes across as disappointing to me. Kudos to Cloud for making a statement on what is obvious to so many of us. I appreciate how starkly his position is contrasted with the typical "Rah rah, everyone contributing to esports is great" nonsense that is often touted on TL.
Casters are EXTREMELY important right now for SC2. Whether you like it or not, they're the faces and representatives of the community. They're the human connection between the viewer and the game, not the players. Players provide part of the content, sure, but the viewer gets to see very little of their personality. There's no real connection to be made when the only time you see emotion is for a few seconds on camera at the end of a game IF it's an offline tournament. The casters are the ones interfacing with the viewers, and make SC2 not only bearable to watch, but entertaining.
lol @ cloud, i am sorry, but a lot of casters earned their status. Not everyone can just become Artosis or Day[9], it's the same with players, not everyone can be MVP. How do you know that they don't go home and practice speaking, write scripts, analyze replays..etc.??
On May 03 2012 02:54 MorroW wrote: putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind. and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve. artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving. but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel
I think the stagnation of new talent in casting is also contributing to the skill of the current casters being mostly at a standstill. There is no pressure from below, Tasteless is a great example of this, if anything his casting has gotten worse over the past year but there is no pressure for him to improve so it is pretty hard to blame him.
On May 03 2012 02:54 MorroW wrote: putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind. and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve. artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving. but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel
I think the stagnation of new talent in casting is also contributing to the skill of the current casters being mostly at a standstill. There is no pressure from below, Tasteless is a great example of this, if anything his casting has gotten worse over the past year but there is no pressure for him to improve so it is pretty hard to blame him.
Exactly, I mean ok ClouD is doing this Vlog in his usual forthright way so I feel some of the underlying messages have been lost in the hyperbole, but he's primarily decrying the lack of improvement from casters, especially in the analytical sense.
Same pool of casters rotated for nearly every event, some natural complacency will ensue.
On May 03 2012 02:54 MorroW wrote: putting money aside i think most of us here would agree the room to improve in terms of enjoyment from watching is not from progamers, tour organisers or production (cameras, stage etc), when it comes to discussing those things we mostly see the casters as a failing link
the fact that we have so many people saying "i dont like x caster" or says they mute the stream, meanwhile we see players getting stronger and stronger (and more popular overall) and production values of tournaments has gone up tremendously lately aswell as prize distrubution rules format etc. everything has constantly been moving forward this last year improving while casters i feel at least are the ones who are slipping behind.
we started out with day9, artosis, tasteless and total biscuit. and after all this time we didnt really get many new casters who became like really, really good. only apollo, mrbitter and rotterdam comes to mind. and in terms of knowledge about the game most of them kinda sit around same skill level and understanding of the game like 1 year ago, like obviously they wont get more funny and likable, so its pretty much just keeping the ball rolling and knowledge of the game they can improve. artosis constantly keeps up with the current flow of the game and latest trends and the new maps etc while in general most casters just seem to be talking about the same general stuff they always do
now dont get offended anyone because i only speak about our casters in general is a slacking part in general in sc2, i dont just mean our current casters and about them i also mean about new rising unknown casters in general. when i look at the entire role as a whole and compare it to every other part about watching or following a tournament, thats what is still disappointing me the most
but we do have casters who really want to improve and are interested at constantly gathering more information about the game, apollo comes to mind for example. but in general i cant actually picture it in my head that the casters does any work at all when it comes to improving with the exception of actually casting and learning the game while casting
to put it in a different perspective. if you look at all the tournaments we have today, theres no tournament that we can really say "well this is just actually THE best tournament" when it comes to production and all this jazz same thing goes for the players. as they are all competing closely with each other and upping their game we see alot of constant movement and improving. but when as far casters know artosis is widely known to be by far the most knowledgeable caster out there, and guys thats not because he is just some super talented caster. its because he on a daily basis follows as many tournaments out there as he can and is constantly learning the game on his free time. so all the casters out there who feel struck when they hear that they lack game knowledge, just whenever u have time just go watch or play sc2 from an improving perspective instead of just watching or playing out of enjoyment and being silly
no new casters are appearing these days, and the ones that are unknown or "up and coming" or still learning, well most of them are terribly disappointing and you can already say they wont make it. thats just how i feel
I think the stagnation of new talent in casting is also contributing to the skill of the current casters being mostly at a standstill. There is no pressure from below, Tasteless is a great example of this, if anything his casting has gotten worse over the past year but there is no pressure for him to improve so it is pretty hard to blame him.
Speaking on why there is a lack of new caster blood, one of the major issues for upcoming/wannabe casters is that they're not pro players and they don't have the knowledge or experience in the proscene/Korean scene (I mention Korean scene because we see a lot of Korean vs Korean/foreigner games nowadays as a lot of Koreans are getting far in foreign tournaments and thus their games get featured on the main stream). Because the upcoming/wannabe casters are not pros neither are they in Korea playing the Korean ladder at a high level they cannot be sure whether the strat they think the Korean player is using is the strat that they know and thus they refrain from analysing for fear of getting it wrong and the resulting fan backlash.
after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
I think that is unfair to say about everyone, Artosis, Wolf, and Apollo (and even Wheat to a lesser extent), definitely prepare and do some research before they cast, and it shows. It is more that we have gotten used to the guys who don't, my biggest issue with Day 9 is that for god knows what reason he is always whispering and shouting and saying random things whenever I see him casting nowadays, which is very different from his casting if you go watch King of the Beta for instance. We viewers appreciate the backstory, and the analysis, and I think some of the responsibility is on our end to express that, if MLG thinks we just want to hear a guy shouting, they will pay a guy who just shouts to cast.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
I think that is unfair to say about everyone, Artosis, Wolf, and Apollo (and even Wheat to a lesser extent), definitely prepare and do some research before they cast, and it shows. It is more that we have gotten used to the guys who don't, my biggest issue with Day 9 is that for god knows what reason he is always whispering and shouting and saying random things whenever I see him casting nowadays, which is very different from his casting if you go watch King of the Beta for instance. We viewers appreciate the backstory, and the analysis, and I think some of the responsibility is on our end to express that, if MLG thinks we just want to hear a guy shouting, they will pay a guy who just shouts to cast.
+1
I really hate day9s casting. It's not that it's bad, it is just that he tries too hard / comes across as a bit of a hipster at times. I dont know how much money he makes form SC2 ( I doubt it's something you could raise a family with ) but even so, he needs to keep it coming in I guess..
To be completely honest I couldn't care less what ClouD has to say about anything. I do not see him REGULARLY contributing to the community as a whole. Other than posting in TL. Maybe there is a niche of the community that I have not seen him in and I accept that I could completely be wrong in my assertion that he's not active. But the first thing that I (and let me repeat I) see out of him is him pretty much taking a shit on a lot of people. I don't care what he enjoys and what he thinks is good. Just because he can label himself a "PRO" player doesn't mean he is an expert on anything. In the video he cites that he is saying these things "for me as a player" this means a lot! What a professional player sees/wants in a casting of a game is MUUUUCH different than what the average audience member wants.
He has some really good points about a great many things but specifically "calling out" people seems bitter(even though he says he's not) and petty. To me his good points get tainted by him trying to specifically label certain casters/players as good or bad.
Of course I am neither an expert in anything eSports related. I'm just a eSports fan. Just my opinion.
Lol, so let me get this clear: you guys want community figures to be honest and be ¨real¨ unless its something you disagree with.
One thing is disagreeing with Cloud another is to question his character based on his opinion.He gave his opinion if you don´t like it feel free to disagree but don´t bash him based on that
On May 02 2012 21:14 Liquid`Ret wrote: I think that the problem isn't that casters make too much, it's just that 90% of the players make very shit money. It's compareable to minimum wage in most countries or lower.
If the two were more in balance with each other then perhaps some progamers wouldn't feel this way.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
Look people there is no 'gaming god' that is obliged to come down and make everything look and feel right in the gaming world. Nor should there be. People make money based on what value they bring to the market, which is determined by what value others are willing to ascribe to them.
E-sports is nothing like real sports, or the real world. We need to wake up and realize this. For 99% of fans watching sc2, the casters are the most important part. They make the game watchable for 99% of fans. No player is capable of doing this. Think of this example: For the average fan watching, what will they enjoy more? a) Game between Demuslim and Haypro casted by Tastosis b) Game between DRG and MKP casted by nobody
The answer should be pretty obvious. Keep in mind the REAL WORLD when considering this, the real world is not your own elitist preferences or hardcore TL readers who would just as soon turn off the sound and analyse it themselves. It is the 99% of sc2 fans who want to tune in casually and be entertained.......you know.....the people who actually bring in the majority of the viewership dollars.
In sc2, casters deliver you the whole game. They have to tell you what's going on because you can't see everything or know about it otherwise. Compare to say football where as a fan you can continually see the ENTIRE relevant portion of the field and every peice of the play within your field of vision. You can appreciate things more easily in that setting even without commentary. In SC2 there are all kinds of things going on in every place on the map which you cannot see or know about unless it is specifically searched out and found for you.
The appropriate analogy would be in your field of view in a football game was limited to 10 x 15 yards on the field. You would be much more dependent on an commentator to tell you what's going on, and subsequently they would command a much higher relative value.
The bottom line is that replacing Tastosis/Day9 with second-tier casters is a much larger decrease in game appeal than replacing MKP with Supernova, for example. The way life works is this: The fewer people who can do what you do, the more money you make. There are dozens and dozens of people who can do what Cloud-level players can do. There are 2 people who can do what Tastosis can do. That may eventually change, but for now that is reality.
If you look at the commentators in other sports you'll see that most of them dont have any background in sports they are commentating, usually they invite former pros to comment with them for a few games and say goodbye after that. The thing is both jobs are incredibly different in terms of requirements and cant be compared in terms of pay or attention. The caster does not have to be knowledgeble but he has to be entertaining. It is actually a good question what takes more talent to be a good caster or a good progamer. Talent is also one of the reasons why you cant compare casters and pros only on the basis of work invested. I think we should see more split casting in future where one is a professional caster and the other one is a pro (former or current). And the most important thing is if you feel that current casting is too bad go try casting yourself or encourage someone else for it who has the talent.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
i am hyped for the next thing he'll bring up in the next vlog, very interesting atleast, and i am sure i am not the only one who wanna know whats the next step by ClouD
On May 04 2012 10:06 NHL Fever wrote: Look people there is no 'gaming god' that is obliged to come down and make everything look and feel right in the gaming world. Nor should there be. People make money based on what value they bring to the market, which is determined by what value others are willing to ascribe to them.
E-sports is nothing like real sports, or the real world. We need to wake up and realize this. For 99% of fans watching sc2, the casters are the most important part. They make the game watchable for 99% of fans. No player is capable of doing this. Think of this example: For the average fan watching, what will they enjoy more? a) Game between Demuslim and Haypro casted by Tastosis b) Game between DRG and MKP casted by nobody
The answer should be pretty obvious. Keep in mind the REAL WORLD when considering this, the real world is not your own elitist preferences or hardcore TL readers who would just as soon turn off the sound and analyse it themselves. It is the 99% of sc2 fans who want to tune in casually and be entertained.......you know.....the people who actually bring in the majority of the viewership dollars.
In sc2, casters deliver you the whole game. They have to tell you what's going on because you can't see everything or know about it otherwise. Compare to say football where as a fan you can continually see the ENTIRE relevant portion of the field and every peice of the play within your field of vision. You can appreciate things more easily in that setting even without commentary. In SC2 there are all kinds of things going on in every place on the map which you cannot see or know about unless it is specifically searched out and found for you.
The appropriate analogy would be in your field of view in a football game was limited to 10 x 15 yards on the field. You would be much more dependent on an commentator to tell you what's going on, and subsequently they would command a much higher relative value.
The bottom line is that replacing Tastosis/Day9 with second-tier casters is a much larger decrease in game appeal than replacing MKP with Supernova, for example. The way life works is this: The fewer people who can do what you do, the more money you make. There are dozens and dozens of people who can do what Cloud-level players can do. There are 2 people who can do what Tastosis can do. That may eventually change, but for now that is reality.
Exactly what i was about to write. Even if someone does not recognize how casters have contributed to SC2 raising (KESPA going full SC2 in the future?) and what opportunites this presents the players with, and even if one would think that many casters at the moment are sub-par, there is obviously a market for it and it seems someone is paying them all this money (that you think it's too much) to cast. Go ahead, try to become a caster as well, if you are any good you might get a chance. If too many people were good then the supply would surge and... In my opinion this discussion is utterly stupid and pointless, community figures don't have to train 14 hours a day to become really good but the obviously put a lot of effort into it in ways that a player might not be able to understand.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol
Yea that was hillarius
where? when? XD
Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol
Yea that was hillarius
where? when? XD
Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games.
They're more entertaining and informative for a reason, which Artosis explained, which is why your opinion is wrong.
I just don't understand what Cloud is complaining about.
Any caster who casts a premier tournament (GSL, MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, Etc.) is essentially in the same league of casting as those who win the tournament are for playing. Cloud hasn't won anything ever. Maybe if he actually played good and won a couple tournaments people could take his opinion seriously. I mean, what has Cloud done to actually put himself in the top tier of players? The biggest tournament he has won is a GIGABYTE Cup.
This is like a college football player complaining that John Madden makes more money than him even though John Madden doesn't practice football for 10 hours a day.
EDIT:
Re-watched the video again. The irony of him saying that there is many pro casters that are bad while he is a bad pro player is fantastic.
On May 02 2012 14:31 -orb- wrote: I'm sorry you are seemingly emotionless and boring, Cloud. Just because you are that way does not mean everyone else is as well.
I get naturally extremely hyped from Starcraft games, and I express my emotions the way I do. It seems like you simply do not like me as a person (despite having never met me), and thus you want to badmouth me out of nowhere because I express my emotions in a way you do not like (instead you just keep your emotionless face and express nothing at all in your own vlog...).
You act as if I am somehow making more than I deserve and that I should not be so "big" as a caster because I don't live up to your standards (that you yourself cannot meet). Are you completely ignorant to the position I am in in esports? I make no money off this game other than small amounts of ad revenue. What is even going through your head? I work my ass off constantly for esports and get almost nothing in return. Who are you to say I should get even less?
You keep making absolutely ridiculous claims that it doesn't take work to become a caster. This makes you look horribly ignorant. While there are exceptions, almost all casters have had to work a ridiculous amount to achieve what they have. The amount of hours of not just learning the game but learning how to talk, what to talk about, recording commentary, building a fanbase, etc is clearly way more than you seem to think.
I think the only people in esports that work harder than casters are the truly dedicated players. Most high-level koreans, and an extremely low select few of foreigners that really care (people like naniwa, huk, etc) actually practice enough and hard enough to beat most casters in terms of amount of effort, but the majority of foreigners do not put in nearly as much effort as your average successful caster.
I don't think you ever made any money from casting, I was just amazed at how much positive feedback you got back then even though I can't watch you for more than 10 minutes without thinking you are fake. It's pretty obvious to me you try really hard with a big fake smile all the time and unnecessarily moving your hands in front of the camera. I don't like you but I didn't badmouth you just for the sake of it, I just think you are one of the worst casters I've seen and I was surprised they let you cast EG masters cup as much as I'm surprised painuser casts for IGN.
Bahahaha, I never really like Cloud up until this point. If i ever come across a ClouD-poster its going right up on my wall. You're a hero. Don't try to reason, dont let yourself get sucked into the debate, you said your piece, it was honest and 95% spot on.
What makes it hard to criticize some of the very popular casters though, is that they do a lot of work for esports and the comunity in general and you can come across as an ungrateful bastard. We have to separate casting and what one does in other areas of esports.
There are only 4 or so casters that can say they are or want to be professional casters. The rest ride theire popularity train and deem it unnecessary to improve.
Mind you, there are also players that are way over hyped and popular based on anything else but skill.
this is a real problem not only in Starcraft 2 but in general life, some people win more money without take effort, isnt a mathematic where you win more money when you deserve more money, you will need change the entire world business to make your dream come true.
On May 01 2012 23:38 Kaitokid wrote: the proscene only exists because we have people who practice their ass off to entertain you.
I always believed they practiced their ass off to win tournaments/money and not to entertain? Not that either things exclude each other but I mean come on, it's actually the casters that work their ass off to entertain. It's their job.
On May 04 2012 19:46 Omgzpwnd wrote: The truth has been spoken. Finally someone HAD BALLS TO SPEAK his mind.
Also, i got question for Cloud: What do You think about casters sponsoring players like TB sponsors Bling?
I don't know about "balls." Cloud had little to lose and probably gained a bit simply by virtue of this thread/the video (unless he had said something Destiny/orb level). I mean, Gaulzi (the cannon rusher) had 650 viewers when I looked yesterday, in part because Day9 demonstrated his pro-level cannon rushing on the last Funday Monday. With him and with Cloud, I'm sure a lot of people were watching to see them fail, as they will watch in the future when TLO and Cloud have their showmatch.
I agree with every ClouD said. I personally have experienced watching vods of some casts of my games and it was unbearable to watch because the caster/s had no fucking idea what they were talking about and would miss pretty much every important thing.
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol
Yea that was hillarius
where? when? XD
Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games.
They're more entertaining and informative for a reason, which Artosis explained, which is why your opinion is wrong.
And where else? SOTG.
It my opinion and I don't care,I don't interest in listening to foriegner caster anymore I don't think if I listening to them I'll got more information than I got it my self and I fucking hate the "down time" or "Fucking stupid joke" from tatosis..
I have to agree with almost everything Cloud said but sometimes he was too aggressive I think though I understand his frustration. Mad props to him for having the ball to say what most progamers don't say
If you think about it in free market term. Well, there is not need to vlog about it at all. I'd like to see him cast something too...
EDIT : I've just watched the vod... and for me Cloud is a clown with a big fat red nose! EDIT2 : It's a shame that TakeTV let him spoke this amount of slanderous words.
In nearly all areas of life, the same rule applies. The people who want something to 'change', are almost never the people actually willing to change it or invest in it in any way. They are also usually the biggest complainers, and the ones who feel they are most entitled to things. They have tons of ideas of who things 'should' be. Health care should be free, tuition should be free, jobs should be abundant and easy. etc. And who should provide those things....well its always the same answer......'somebody else' should do it. The government, a regulating body, a spontaneous movement of people in that individuals interest.....anything except accepting the hard work and responsibility of making something happen for oneself.
If you don't like the caster/player situation, than F@#*ing do something about it. If you think the top casters make too much and lower casters should be given a shot, then when you tune to watch sc2, don't watch anything by the top casters. That's how your message will accross most effectively. Or if you think casters make too much for the work......well then take that opening and become a caster. But if you still watch the top casters, and if you still pay for events that use them, you ARE the problem that you are complaining about. If a wheat farmer complains that the canola farmer is making more money, he can make himself angry and create dissent with his neighbor by whining about it. But the better option is to become a canola farmer himself.
It never ceases to amaze how many people will hate on people for being successful, but would never put in the effort to become successful themselves.
You know what's unfair? I have to work for a living and Paris Hilton does not. Somebody should do something about that! Hey don't look at me.
Cloud has brought out some really good points, and InControl is spot on with his explanation in ITG.
I would love to hear pro players opinions on the high handedness of mods on TL. Since forever, they have basically enforced mindless praise for casters in all threads, in all live threads, poll threads, etc. It's banned to discuss it, unless it is hidden in some other thread, like this "Cloud's World' or 'Moletrap leaves GOM'.
They simply shut down all community feedback, like just now closed a thread, which was meant to give opinions on moletrap casting sc2 for OGN, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334782 by giving the reason "Poll threads are never good". Really? Poll threads are never good.. words of wisdom. Not that hard to see the personal agenda of some mods here. By the way, that poll consisted of about 1,300 people, who cared about the game, and were 99% sure to be a viewer of OGN SC2 league. Really nice going killing their feedback.
This is really in detriment to the players, viewers and the game itself. The passion of the community is taken for granted, that they will keep watching and caring about the game no matter how bad it remains. The substandard elements will never get rooted out if this goes on.
As InControl said, this is something that should keep getting discussed, but sadly this is impossible on this site. A rethink of the modding policy is in need, and influence from pro players, because their voice is the only things mods are not willing to shut down.
On May 04 2012 23:57 Legion710 wrote: I agree with every ClouD said. I personally have experienced watching vods of some casts of my games and it was unbearable to watch because the caster/s had no fucking idea what they were talking about and would miss pretty much every important thing.
Actually I think casters should not control the camera, they have a lot of things on their mind already so delegating that to somebody else should be a standard for high level tournaments.
I think your vlog could be improved. You could say the same thing in 3 minutes. Maybe plan in advance to some extent what you are going to say? Good points though, I think casting is pretty bad as a whole, and now that I know enough to know it's bad, I can't stand watching most casts.
I really don't understand the point of this vlog. It just seems like a highly subjective rant about casters. It just has this sort of hint of bitterness that some players might feel towards them. I can easily see them feeling that casting is "easy" because no matter what happens, when you go to cast a tournament, you will get payed, you will get attention and it's not relying on your performance.
On the other hands players practice and practice, go play, lose and then just go home without much of a reward. He even says so in the end. It's just the nature of the business. I know people will love to praise this for speaking his mind and because he calls out a lot of things other people agree with but are too shy to express, but in the end it just feels like, in all honesty, whining.
"Casters never lose and always get payed a lot of money, while I have to win to earn anything near that." Casters are the face and the voice of e-sports, they bring in the viewers. It's a business. More viewers, more income, and more of that income will go towards the people who brought said viewers. Simple as that. Look at NASL season 2, so many great players yet it struggled for viewers because many were on this bandwagon of hating Gretorp and Orb (both fine casters IMO). If he can't be a player without resenting casters for doing their job and getting payed more than his xth place finish at some random tournament, then he should just retire and go to school. I'm not even going to get into the fact that casters do a LOT more than just stand in front of the camera and describe a video game.
Good on him for speaking his mind and getting views, but given how transparently bitter it sounds and how he's not qualified to do any better than the people he bashes... This is why the "cool story bro" meme was invented.
On May 05 2012 00:41 BXiT wrote: If you think about it in free market term. Well, there is not need to vlog about it at all. I'd like to see him cast something too...
EDIT : I've just watched the vod... and for me Cloud is a clown with a big fat red nose! EDIT2 : It's a shame that TakeTV let him spoke this amount of slanderous words.
What the fuck "free market term" = no need to talk about anything? What is this? First semester economics?
In general Cloud made a lot of good points there. The point thats missing is that he should've argue more than to make just general statements
On May 03 2012 11:29 nOondn wrote: after watch korean caster with subtitle i don't enjoy foreigner caster anymore ,they don't know what they talking about not even analyze the game and still get paid lol.
Artosis said "fuck you" to you lololol
Yea that was hillarius
where? when? XD
Although he kind of has a point lolol, the korean casters are more entertaining and informative then all of the foreign casters, even Artosis (sorry it's true, although Day9 and himself are doing a good job). Hopefully more progamers become casters as they provide good insight during games.
They're more entertaining and informative for a reason, which Artosis explained, which is why your opinion is wrong.
And where else? SOTG.
The "reason" Artosis did bring up is complete bullshit. A "script"? How the fuck do you want to script live matches? You can tell as a spectator its obvious theres a lot of spontaneity between the Korean casters. Maybe they have a team that does the research and brings them stats and infos, but thats just basic work, its no excuse. They are just both better entertainers and put more work in their job, that is all. Lets not be too naive about what Artosis says, specially when he defends his and his friends job. Lets just says hes not a guy that admit his errors easily.
Some of casters yes, but some of them no. If you look at caster like Husky, yes I agree, he casts 2 games a day and recieves a lot of money for 1hour of work. But if you look at casters like Artosis, Khaldor they basically live sc2. They play it to gain trends/understanding, Khaldor does his little vlogs etc, I wouldnt say that caster is only to cast sc2, but also to be a part of community, more than the players usually.
On May 08 2012 18:19 Corsica wrote: Some of casters yes, but some of them no. If you look at caster like Husky, yes I agree, he casts 2 games a day and recieves a lot of money for 1hour of work. But if you look at casters like Artosis, Khaldor they basically live sc2. They play it to gain trends/understanding, Khaldor does his little vlogs etc, I wouldnt say that caster is only to cast sc2, but also to be a part of community, more than the players usually.
I can't believe you are dogging Husky, even though he does far, far more for the community than say Artosis does. He also casts far more than the average caster through his youtube channel, as well as promoting e-sports all off his own back.
What does Tasteless do? He casts Code S for the 4 weeks its on, a few hours a night. And then what?
The main problem I feel Cloud has was the huge disparity in workload to reward ratio for players to casters, especially since players work so hard in putting on great games. And yes, he's right, players SHOULD get paid more.
lol, the age-old hostility between Engineering and Marketing/Sales has finally reached SC2^^
There are maybe a dozen or so casters who are fairly well-known and who put a lot of effort into building their brand. They are our (the spectators') gateway to the game (and to the players) and they create much of the excitement that makes us love esports.
There is a much larger number of players and - in contrast to casters - they seem to be easily replaceable. Do I really care whether Random Korean #1 or Random Korean #2 wins any given tournament? I don't, and why should I? I don't know anything about the player which would make me want to empathize with him and in 6 months he'll probably be forgotten anyways.
The players rise and fall way too quickly for me to feel comfortable rooting for any of them (and the teams are generally too faceless for people to become fanboys of a whole team) - but the casters stay around, they explain to us the action in a way that makes us empathize and they actually care about building/developing their brand.
A good caster is able to salvage a bad game but a good player will never be able to overcome a bad caster.
The spectator pays for entertainment, not for results, yet most players seem to think that they can solely focus on providing results (as has been mentioned a few times already, Team EG is a noteable exception in this respect).
I don't quite understand this point of view. He seems to be putting part of the blame solely on the casters themselves. (I realise some of it is placed on the community too).
The most popular casters (Day9, Tastosis) used to be pro players, do a LOT for the game, and actually learn about the game as well as passing on that information.
The less popular casters (TotalHobnob, JP etc) are less popular BECAUSE they don't give as insightful commentary. I know I'm far more likely to listen to, for example, Idra's thoughts on a game as opposed to JP's thoughts.
The problem of Players vs Casters is a result of the lack of media. Anytime I've heard casters talk about players, they will normally hype the player, and oftentimes promote a player as well. However the casters are the ONLY media these players really have. We don't have tabloid newspapers that talk all about the players, so the players are naturally less exposed. A caster will cast 100 games, but a player will only have 10 games of him cast. (random numbers). In this situation, who will the audience see and empathise more with?
A lot of this is down to the players though. They don't put themselves out there, how can they be expected to gain more support and exposure? I barely know anything about ClouD, other than he's a player. I know the odd bits and pieces. Before this vlog, I'd never seen anything about him outside his stream. Where's his attempts to promote himself?
A player can't be defined just because they play well. There are a trillion billion players (give or take ), but not many casters. The top players are more or less as popular as the top casters. But then for every pair of casters, there's 50 pro players. Made up numbers again, but you get the point. If a player wants to be recognised, they have to DO something about it. They have far more people they need to stand out from than casters do. It doesn't help that a lot of players simply aren't outgoing or charismatic people like sports stars tend to be. But casters are.
The onus is on the players, not on the viewer, and not on the caster.
When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with.
These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't.
For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them.
It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol.
BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else.
100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have.
On May 08 2012 22:09 nebffa wrote: When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with.
These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't.
For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them.
It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol.
BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else.
100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have.
this is absolute insanity. good and bad are subjective. there is no way we can all get this. anyways what do you want, artosis in 6 different countries simultaneously? its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level. what do you know about the caster world? good grief charlie brown
On May 08 2012 22:09 nebffa wrote: When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with.
These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't.
For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them.
It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol.
BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else.
100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have.
this is absolute insanity. good and bad are subjective. there is no way we can all get this. anyways what do you want, artosis in 6 different countries simultaneously? its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level. what do you know about the caster world? good grief charlie brown
I knew someone like you would come out and have some negative comment about what I said. It is obvious a lot of casters have not been working on their casting, because it is poor. How else do you tell someone's been working hard at something? Where else do you look other than at the results? Yes, the results of a lot of casters are awesome. The casters that improve over time I love, I think it's awesome they are working at their casting because they know it makes a difference for them and for us.
But nooooo heaven forbid we criticise casters that detract from the experience. We can't do that. Because they're working at it??? If a caster is making the regular mistakes an unskilled or untrained caster, what is making you think they are working hard?
EDIT: Oh and ps nice how you said "its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level". What exaggeration and hyperbolae. I never said anything close to that - I said some casters are awesome, some casters are not. I did not comment on whether casters are working hard or not.
For the record - the casters that are improving over time and that are working hard at improving their casting; I think they're AWESOME.
However I never made a mention of this and you completely exaggerated what I said to make me look like a jerk. My post, and Cloud's too for that matter, is aimed at casters that make novice mistakes, obviously do not know what they are talking about, and are not making a proper effort for what they are getting paid to do. Please do not mischaracterise my post more
On May 08 2012 22:09 nebffa wrote: When I watch a game and I see a caster say something completely 100% fucking wrong it takes me out of the atmosphere of the game as I immediately think - no - that is not correct. Sometimes a caster says a player is about to lose when both players traded evenly. There's a myriad of examples that everyone here will be familiar with.
These are things that often one does not need to have an advanced knowledge of the game. For example, when a caster says a player is going all-in right after he plants an expansion down. All this takes is looking at the game. Often the casters have more information than we do as they have their own computer they are looking at things on that we don't see - checking the production tab when we can't.
For some people this is tolerable, but I know that for myself and many other people it is the top reason for possibly not enjoying watching Starcraft 2 - because it is so fucking annoying. I think people are mischaracterising Cloud's comments as attacks on good casters, as is evidenced by the people rushing to the defence of people like Artosis and Day[9]. No-one is having a go at these guys and the other great casters. They are awesome, more power to them, we love them.
It is only the bad casters. When you hear something blatantly wrong in a cast, you cannot help but think to yourself "what the fuck did he just say lol" or maybe you are a "FUCK YOU MAN" instead lol. Either way, it is a reflex and it just takes me out of the game, every time. And the thing I hate the most is when I am watching a game, not waiting for the next bit of action, but wondering when a caster is going to make his next wrong call. That is literally the experience for me - I am wondering when they are going to say something wrong next. There is an easy way for casters to fix their casting and that is get to high masters on their servers - simple as that. Everyone knows it. No-one beyond diamond makes half the calls these guys make... seriously lol.
BTW if you want to see the kind of awesome quality casting duos we can get - go look at ToD and RotterDaM cast the GomTV Warcraft 3 Invitational back in 2009 - http://www.gomtv.net/gwi/. I still remember this series because I was laughing so much all the time and getting so much insight into the game. I felt the anxiety from the suspense, I felt excited, and also I felt I had secret insight into the game that almost no-one else had from ToD and RotterDaM's commentary all the way through the game. Now ToD was one of the best WC3 players ever, and people would say one of the top 3 Human players and we don't have someone of that skill casting SC2. Sure - but this is what is possible and after seeing high quality casting I really don't think people will want anything else.
100% agree with Cloud and if I am going to spend my money paying for casts and streams I 100% want casters to be working their ass off for the awesome opportunity they have.
this is absolute insanity. good and bad are subjective. there is no way we can all get this. anyways what do you want, artosis in 6 different countries simultaneously? its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level. what do you know about the caster world? good grief charlie brown
I knew someone like you would come out and have some negative comment about what I said. It is obvious a lot of casters have not been working on their casting, because it is poor. How else do you tell someone's been working hard at something? Where else do you look other than at the results? Yes, the results of a lot of casters are awesome. The casters that improve over time I love, I think it's awesome they are working at their casting because they know it makes a difference for them and for us.
But nooooo heaven forbid we criticise casters that detract from the experience. We can't do that. Because they're working at it??? If a caster is making the regular mistakes an unskilled or untrained caster, what is making you think they are working hard?
EDIT: Oh and ps nice how you said "its ultra insanity that you think casters arent working their asses off at any level". What exaggeration and hyperbolae. I never said anything close to that - I said some casters are awesome, some casters are not. I did not comment on whether casters are working hard or not.
For the record - the casters that are improving over time and that are working hard at improving their casting; I think they're AWESOME.
However I never made a mention of this and you completely exaggerated what I said to make me look like a jerk. My post, and Cloud's too for that matter, is aimed at casters that make novice mistakes, obviously do not know what they are talking about, and are not making a proper effort for what they are getting paid to do. Please do not mischaracterise my post more
They're either lazy or they just know shit all about the game, because with nearly all the casters, just like cloud said, the lack of knowledge, wrong calls etc is painfully obvious to see. Everyone says Tasteless is amazing, was incredible at casting in brood war etc but I never played brood war and all I see in him is a very, very mediocre sc2 caster. Seems like a nice guy though. There are others.. PainUser for example used to be a pretty solid NA terran, i tuned into his stream the other day and he literally looked worse than me, was lowish masters and dropping games to diamond players. He's obviously not focusing hard on sc2 right now, and it surely is affecting his casting.
I just want greater professionalism. As I always said, Apollo is probably the only one that actually seems to know a decent amount about every single player he casts. I mean wrong calls and insight can be forgiven, but at least know about what's going on in the sc2 universe ffs.
I also agree with ClouD that many, many progamers would make far better commentators. Some of my favourite casting ever was at the HomeStory Cups where all the players did a lot of commentary. ClouD himself was pretty funny to listen to casting GoOdy's games
I agree with most of what Cloud is saying, but he presents it badly in this video. I think it's good and important to highlight that there's a severe lack of good analytical casters (and he has balls for calling out day9, I agree with him but it's a deathtrap considering day9s fanbase). Because of this lack of good analytical casters, it seems tournaments are simply going for play by play casters, which is becoming a problem. Having a good play by play caster with a good analytical caster is awesome, but when you get to the point where you have a good play by play caster with a very mediocre analytical caster, it's about as bad as simply having two good play by play casters... yeah, they talk about what is happening, but it isn't doing anything else for you.
I really feel casters need to man up and and start spending time with the game. Play by play casters who people enjoy and who do it well don't need to work too hard, but people like Apollo (who I personally think is one of the better casters) really need to keep their game and player knowledge crisp. Being a caster is hard, sure, but watching games and reading up on recent tactics etc honestly isn't a job, it's being paid to have fun. Caster is a fantastic job, I'm sure most people who watch SC2 regularly secretly wish they could be good famous casters... so if you're a decently famous caster and you feel targeted by this video, for god sake, put more effort into your knowledge and you'll be awesome.
I lol every time players talk about how sc2 progaming is hard work. Like you are lifting bricks or something. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it may take a lot of time and talent to be a programer, but it's not hard work. Imo even being a store clerk is harder cause it boring as shit - you dont get to play the game you hopefully enjoy. Also pro gamer life may be difficult (need to put in hours to stay relevant but lots make little $), but progamer work is not hard, unless you actually hate the game you are playing. I agree with Cloud that casters should take more time to learn the game, but as soon as I saw the bit about players working hard, couldn't take the rest seriously. Wanted to tell him to go get the easy regular job.. no offense intended, but he'll probably make more money too
Both the above posts are wrong about one thing, which is this idea that somehow progaming or casting is not hard work because you are doing something fun --- doing something for a living automatically changes that thing into something that it wasn't before.
Lots of progamers do in fact not love the game anymore, and IMO that is the biggest reason for people falling off the older they get because it's hard to keep up with people who are actually passionate about what they do - which generally tends to be easier to be the younger/less time you have spent on it.
Tbh the game isnt even close to finished yet,and has major flaws in keeping the long term motivation up,i mean you are completely lost in the game. No social interaction,no chatrooms which are deserving the word. As a casual you only have the shitladder,i think i lost 50% of the games intentionally,cause i didn´t have the matchup i wanted. Then they even said,they will bann people if they loose intentionally,which is the greatest farce i can imagine,keeping in mind they did not do their job of making the game better or more interesting. I played Terran cuz of the easy follow up from the campaign,but it gets boring as fuck. I quit the game therefore and have absolutely no regret doing it. If I imagine playing 10 hours a day,i would smash the damn thing out of the window.
On May 09 2012 00:40 iokke wrote: I lol every time players talk about how sc2 progaming is hard work. Like you are lifting bricks or something. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it may take a lot of time and talent to be a programer, but it's not hard work. Imo even being a store clerk is harder cause it boring as shit - you dont get to play the game you hopefully enjoy. Also pro gamer life may be difficult (need to put in hours to stay relevant but lots make little $), but progamer work is not hard, unless you actually hate the game you are playing. I agree with Cloud that casters should take more time to learn the game, but as soon as I saw the bit about players working hard, couldn't take the rest seriously. Wanted to tell him to go get the easy regular job.. no offense intended, but he'll probably make more money too
i would say to actually make something of yourself in progaming is definitely a harder job than a store clerk. just because its a fun game to play doesnt make it any less hard to be a progamer as a job...that is not a logical conclusion. fun jobs can be hard as shit. i know guys who love working construction but its hard fucking work. it might be easier mentally to handle having to do progaming 'work' instead of running a cash register or bagging groceries but what about if you work 10-12hr a day and are pretty good but have no exposure/breakout result? you get very close in many qualifiers and cups and just dont get the win? it really fucks with your brain.
being a store clerk is boring, and may be mentally hard to handle doing such meaningless tasks, but its easy as FUCK. how can you say ringing people up or bagging groceries is MORE COMPLEX than progaming? hell it doesnt even take any physical fucking effort...at least if you used a factory worker as an example you could say yes, they exert more physical energy and can be considered more difficult in that manner.
On May 09 2012 01:27 SayGen wrote: After considering the facts. I have one word (technically 2)
Day[9]
If you doubt go watch his 100th Daily
Also he took his OWN time without getting paid to sign my poster at Blizzcon. And Husky is legit too, his quirkyness is a nice comic relief.
Nuff said imho
what does any of that has to do with the quality of their casting? cloud wasnt doubting any casters passion but their skill.
Day[9] daily. who spends SEVERAL hours a week trying to teach people starcraft and takes time to carefully analyse games. He goes above and beyond trying to udnerstand as well as TEACH.
Only a few American casters are less than good (not caster bashing) but HD is a little slow on the uptake but at least he plays in tounrys at a master level.
So long as the caster actually plays I can forgive alot.
Husky plays, Diamond Toss Day 9 plays, HD plays, Artosis, Tasteless, they all play.
How better to learn the game than to play.
also all the caster that I just mentioned ask actuvily on youtube for suggestions.
I agree with Jinro- even if you enjoy something doesn't mean you don't work hard at it...and there will be times when you just don't feel like doing something even if you enjoy it, but skipping those hours of practice are unacceptable, or going to a fan event is not an option, fun or not.
As for the OP...I agree with Cloud about the main points..but his arguments went around in circles and repeated themselves several times..
I will say you gotta break casters into categories and each group is held to a different standard..
Analytical: This is the toughest job...requires high level sc skill, keeping up with the meta games, lots of game knowledge and really good insight. VERY FEW PEOPLE can achieve a good job at this role, and it is most frustrating to watch people fail at it.
Good (and probably only) examples of analytical casters: Artosis (by far the best), Wolf Many pro players could transition to this role with practice and hard work - see grubby at MLG..I think tyler would be amazing at this eventually.
Play by Play/Entertainment: This is much easier, requires much less knowledge, but being correct is important. Usually helps to be entertaining, have a good voice, and be able to engage the audience although this can be done as playing off Co Caster like tastosis and bitterdam do the best.
Good examples of Play by Play: Totalbiscuit (so good at it), Catspajamas
Caster Hybrids- this is usually a solo caster or someone whos part of a team that just makes everything so much better, provides a little bit of both sides of casting. This is hard but contains elements of both categories so can often get away with a little deficiency in game skill or knowledge of the current metagame etc. Entertainment factor comes into play a lot with these.
Good examples: Tasteless, Day 9, Apollo, Doa, Incontrol, Bitterdam ( they both seem to fit this mold and are really great as a team. I would say Rotterdam is better solo, Mr. Bitter is a little too biased both about races and players (omg foreigner bias ridiculous with him). Khaldor and JP are improving but not there yet imo.
Not going to go down the list of bad casters, as that is bad taste, but overall most everyone else is not very good lol. I also think there are different standards for casting different things too...Foreign events you can get away with a lot more than you can when you are casting a full league like NASL or Korea in general. Korea the metagame is such a factor there and it really helps when casters keep up with it, when they know who is up and coming, because the foreign scene needs to know about the players to get behind them. GSL is also the premier league, and I personally just have such little tolerance for poor casting in that league. TBH the only time ive enjoyed casting in the GSL outside of Tastosis is WolfTosis and once DoaWolf got used to each other...qxc with wolf was pretty good sometimes.
The thing that people don't understand is that even though some casters don't put enough work into their casting, a lot of them are working their ass off for the community. A lot of peOple use Husky as an example of someone who needs to improve their game knowledge. But at the same time he's working his ass off preparing things for the community. The geforce pr/am is a good example. Day 9 and husky basically prepared that event while geforce, even though provided the opportunity and money, did very little in managing it. Every person doesnt need to be an analytical commentator anyway. Analytical commentators also strive for a good play by play co-caster. Artosis mentioned in a recent state of the game the joy he gets when he commentates with husky. Even though total biscuit is in gold league he still brings a very bright personality to the cast and at the same time is working his ass off. Not only does he run the shoutcraft tournaments but he sponsors bling, and was even doing this cast games for certain players and in return give them money. To say someone like Total buiscuit doesn't do enough is clearly not factoring in everything . (BTW don't say anythingabout how Korean casters know so much more than other casters they have a script that a team produces. It is an entirely different median). Yes some casters in our community don't work hard enough and maybe the only way to get them to improve is publically announcing his opinions. But it is an unfair assumption that all play by play casters don't work hard.
Growing pains imo. High demand for casters as more and more comps are popping up and that includes a mix of old school ex-players/scene-sters and those new to the scene (WOL beta-ish). Lots of people getting involved with varying levels of skill so it's natural some won't be as 'good' as others.
There are common themes in what people look for in casters - but at the end of the day its personal preference. If X percentage of people like a particular caster or casting duo they are likely to get more work. They might be popular due to their personalities, their knowledge, dynamics, etc. If those casters aren't good at the things you value then that is likely to push you to make decisions on what you watch or if you just mute the cast.
As a pro Cloud has more knowledge/exp to judge casters on - he is aware of things that I would absolutely miss as I just don't know enough about the game or playing at that level. But he isn't representative of most viewers. There are plenty of TLer's who know an awful lot but aren't progammers. But there are waaaay more folk who don't have that level of skill/knowledge but still love to play and watch SC2. That's where it comes back preference.
I agree with him in that you want the best casting possible - A caster that can make that knowledge accessible to viewers while being fun, engaging and current in the scene would be awesome. But most, if not all, current casters have strengths and weaknesses. We've seen heaps of threads from casters looking to get feedback to help them improve - that is vital if a lot of folks don't think you are up to standard.You might be forgiven for not being 100% awesome if you are actively seeking to improve but if you aren't...
I don't agree with comments that casters don't work hard - that is elitest crap imo. People can be working their asses off and improving slowly over time. It's not like someone spends a couple of weeks studying hardout and suddenly becomes a gosu caster - it takes time.
I believe that the reason why casters are so popular compared to players is because of the tournament format system we use in the west.
1. Most western leagues feature way too many players for spectators to track. For players, screen time is very diluted. When you have a 256+ player pool, there's only so much screen time you can give each player. But for casters, screen time is very dense. The spectator only gets 30-60 minutes to form a relationship with a player who does well in a tournament, like a Huk or Idra. But the spectator gets 6-18 hours to form a relationship with a caster.
2. Most western leagues are one-off events independent of each other, which make it very difficult to create player storylines. Even GSL falls victim to this because their players also play in other leagues. You don't get to "know" a player *just* by watching GSL, you've also got to watch MLG IPL NASL in order to track that player's progress. It's exhausting, and only the most die-hard fans of a particular player will go through that. But on the other hand, casters tend to remain constant within leagues. If you only watch MLG, then you can't count on specific players like Nestea showing up and making it onscreen...but you can count on seeing specific casters like Day9, DJWheat, JP, etc.
3. The game is still too young to produce players worthy of celebrity. There's been 14 GSLs, but the most that anybody's ever won is 3. We need much more time for truly dominant players to arise, like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong in BW.
On May 09 2012 00:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Both the above posts are wrong about one thing, which is this idea that somehow progaming or casting is not hard work because you are doing something fun --- doing something for a living automatically changes that thing into something that it wasn't before.
Lots of progamers do in fact not love the game anymore, and IMO that is the biggest reason for people falling off the older they get because it's hard to keep up with people who are actually passionate about what they do - which generally tends to be easier to be the younger/less time you have spent on it.
Are you one of those, who is frustated with the game? I am curious.
On May 05 2012 02:02 NHL Fever wrote: In nearly all areas of life, the same rule applies. The people who want something to 'change', are almost never the people actually willing to change it or invest in it in any way. They are also usually the biggest complainers, and the ones who feel they are most entitled to things. They have tons of ideas of who things 'should' be. Health care should be free, tuition should be free, jobs should be abundant and easy. etc. And who should provide those things....well its always the same answer......'somebody else' should do it. The government, a regulating body, a spontaneous movement of people in that individuals interest.....anything except accepting the hard work and responsibility of making something happen for oneself.
If you don't like the caster/player situation, than F@#*ing do something about it. If you think the top casters make too much and lower casters should be given a shot, then when you tune to watch sc2, don't watch anything by the top casters. That's how your message will accross most effectively. Or if you think casters make too much for the work......well then take that opening and become a caster. But if you still watch the top casters, and if you still pay for events that use them, you ARE the problem that you are complaining about. If a wheat farmer complains that the canola farmer is making more money, he can make himself angry and create dissent with his neighbor by whining about it. But the better option is to become a canola farmer himself.
It never ceases to amaze how many people will hate on people for being successful, but would never put in the effort to become successful themselves.
You know what's unfair? I have to work for a living and Paris Hilton does not. Somebody should do something about that! Hey don't look at me.
Or how about they don't want to do it. Such as myself. I'm very happy with where I am and passionate about what I do.
I have no reason to change all that by entering that void. In order to keep the lifestyle in which I live I couldn't throw that all away by entering into the competitive gaming scene again. Plus, I have the been there done that attitude as well. Why would I want to come back and start from scratch?
I know there are a lot of other guys on deck. Let them hit the home run.
Plus, we already seeing the screwy louie's write people off (the next step when people are pissy about certain things). You don't really have any other alternatives when it comes to certain casts in order to watch. That's why a lot of people hit that mute button. I don't need to hear somebody else talking to enjoy the game. I can follow the action myself.
It is what it is.
No such thing as bad publicity. Gamers will bitch and moan all they want yet they still buy into all the crap just like anyone else. As I've said before, our industry is one of the worst when it comes to consumerism.
I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed. It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example. He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote: I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed. It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example. He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
Even though I partly agree with you, Totalbiscuit does "deserve" to work in whatever business he wants to. He's a great shoutcaster, he even sponsers a player if I remember correctly. He's very active and can get you hooked while watched a tournament. But, like I said, I do partly agree with you.
He is one of the castes that really needs to learn more about what he talking about. Sometimes it seems he just rambles about something, just to talk about somthing, even though its not exactly whats going on in the game. I like TB, really do, if he had the knowledge of apollo or rotterdam he would be the perfect caster. But I remember saying in another post that he community needs more former pro's casting, rather then the "average joe" (playbyplay)
All the stuff about him hating blizzard and saying you are a fanboy, I know nothing about. I guess its between you and him personally.
edit:
On May 10 2012 23:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Moronic fanboi
On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote: I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed. It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example. He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
Even though I partly agree with you, Totalbiscuit does "deserve" to work in whatever business he wants to. He's a great shoutcaster, he even sponsers a player if I remember correctly. He's very active and can get you hooked while watched a tournament. But, like I said, I do partly agree with you.
He is one of the castes that really needs to learn more about what he talking about. Sometimes it seems he just rambles about something, just to talk about somthing, even though its not exactly whats going on in the game. I like TB, really do, if he had the knowledge of apollo or rotterdam he would be the perfect caster. But I remember saying in another post that he community needs more former pro's casting, rather then the "average joe" (playbyplay)
All the stuff about him hating blizzard and saying you are a fanboy, I know nothing about. I guess its between you and him personally.
On May 10 2012 23:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Moronic fanboi
Not really the way to get people behind you.
Don't need people behind me, got enough of those already. Buttmad Diablo 3 fanbois are the not the kind of people you wanna be associated with, absalom is unbalanced bordering on psychophathic because I dared not care about a game he liked. That should tell you all you need to know.
I don't think all casters need to be pro gamers but I definitely expect them to be at least in master league. Tournament organizers should just organize free coaching for casters :-)
In my opinion as a quality player (hit gm, currently masters with 230 bonus pool) I've noticed how bad casters really are... Painuser especially seems to ONLY explain how poorly each player is, until finally finishing the game with the conclusion they both suck, excluding the fact he never got anywhere in his career as a player outside of a few nothings here and there... I loved his comment on day[9] because god damint day[9] has changed... Before in BW he was analytical and honest, but now he tries to baby his cast for the intellectually lacking individuals who can't see things, and in doing so tends to over analyse situations... God I miss old Sean Plott, but that being said because of his humour I always love his casting. His comment on tasteless was true, it seems like he's along for the ride, but his position as a caster is really for the show, artosis is for the game...
All in all, if I had a decent computer and salary (my voice is definitely clean through enough) I know that personally I could do a damn better job then most of the casters (excluding the fav's like artosis, MrBitter [who's voice is so damn good] Totalbiscuit, day9, geoff, khaldor and the few few others I might be forgetting)
I also LOVED his comment on orb, I have NO idea how that child got a job from EG to cast its masters cup, once he began casting I stopped watching, then they allowed people who understood the game to cast again and now I watch it every single time it's on.
Side note, I also enjoy Gretorp who is imo great for NASL and they're doing a great job.
On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote: I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
Not going to respond to the rest of it because I don't have anything worth saying about the rest of it.
If he was doing this just for the money, he would not pump money back into the scene in his ShoutCraft tournaments - which are sponsored out of his own pocket and he has I believe stated that he barely breaks even on those, if anything, because of the prize money he pays people.
I haven't watched the log, but it seems like with a lot of the problems raised by this community, it's stuff which stupid, bad and frustrating, but to which there isn't really a solution at present. Although players should get more money and recognition, if every player on a team suddenly got a salary of a caster, the scene would bankrupt within a week. And if every caster had their salary cut, we probably wouldn't have dedicated casters at all, because they would be too busy with other jobs. This 'stupid' situation is actually the only one which works, until the e-sports scene is nearly as big as mainstream sports and has billions of dollars poured into it each year.
On May 10 2012 03:54 absalom86 wrote: I agree with Cloud on this topic. Casters should at the MINIMUM try get better at the game, even if they are play by play. I think people would be less inclined to support for example Totalbiscuit if they followed his twitter feed. It's filled with hate towards Blizzard games as well as vile responses to fans of WoW and Diablo for example. He was promoting Path of Exile on his twitter the other day and I asked him why he was talking about that instead of Diablo III which was being released next week, and he basically said it was shit and that I was just a " blizzard fanboi " ( Forgetting that he uses a troll from World of Warcraft as his avatar, as well as most of his subscribers came from his beta footage ).
One would have to wonder how a person that makes his livelihood lives with himself working on casting games by a company he hates, and actively throws itsults at can live with himself.
I played some practice matches with him a long time ago, went easy on him and tried to teach him to become better at the game ( I suck at starcraft episode 16 & 17 ) and he seemed like a nice lad there, but I know he has described himself as depressed and " not a happy man " in his videoblog...
I see John Bain ( Totalbiscuit ) as a good example of a person doing this JUST for the money and not deserving of work in this field if / when better casters start showing up, unless he gets his act together and at least eases on the insults on his soon to be ex-fans.
I think I can safely say he would not do a show about a blizzard game for 5~ years (as well as produce countless videos about blizzard games) if he did not in fact like blizzard to some extent. I obviously won't and cannot speak for him, but i'm fairly sure giving criticism to a game/company and their business practices does not constitute "hating" them.
And I'd advise people to stop claiming that anybody is in eSports "for the money". It's ludicrous considering the fact that, well, quite frankly eSports isn't exactly a gold mine yet. If you want to get rich, your first thought might not be to cash in on the unsuspecting followers of video game tournaments.
The thing with TB and the way he "insults" his fans, is that for every fan who says something silly and is thereby mocked by their idol via twitter (a horrifying prospect indeed), there are a hundred fans who appreciate him and his attitude/way of dealing with silly people and silly statements.
TB has made it very clear in the past that he doesn't appreciate fanboys, or really, people who lack the ability to question his views at all. I believe he has every right to exercise this belief on twitter or whatever social media he wishes to employ, and as I said, people who don't like that will leave, and the people who do (who far outnumber those who don't) will continue to view and enjoy his content.
And to clarify, I'm not in any way a TotalBiscuit "fanboy" or even a fan. I don't agree with much of what he says, but I can always find myself appreciating his high standards when it comes to producing content.
On May 13 2012 09:06 Moonalisa wrote: I dont agree with anything ClouD said and I hope I never have to see episode 2 of this stuff...
To me, Cloud just sound bitter and recentful. If the sc2 community were to be dependant on people as charismatic as him, it would be stone dead.
When you disagree with someone, people are much more likely to take you seriously if you actually make a point about the original topic, as opposed to making a point about the persons character.
On May 13 2012 09:26 b0rt_ wrote: every caster needs to play random to masters
Day9 has (had?) 3 GM accounts, and people still criticize him for a lack of relevant, high level knowledge.
Don't care either way about casters rank, but note Day9 said he had 3 GM accounts (one for each race), a lot of people do not think that was true.
I remember something about Day[9] supposedly having a A rank ICCup account back in BW, but no one knew what account it was because it was a smurf. Sounds familiar. I could be recalling this wrong though.
On May 13 2012 09:26 b0rt_ wrote: every caster needs to play random to masters
really? cause JP does that and people just shit on him.
JP is a great caster. The majority of the sc2 community doesn't know what a good caster is tho. If you're in gold league, how do you know wheather what JP says is true or false? When the reddit threads came up about JP's casting a few MLGs ago, nobody had anything constructive to say, they just thougt his casting was bad in general. It's not like HDStarcraft who were spreading false info (such as marauder concussive shells increasing damage dealt etc.). No specific reason was given. It was nothing but a sad bandwagon that dumb redditors decided to jump on to.
On May 13 2012 09:26 b0rt_ wrote: every caster needs to play random to masters
Day9 has (had?) 3 GM accounts, and people still criticize him for a lack of relevant, high level knowledge.
Its a long time ago he had them I think. But honestly, IMO the Daily he makes isnt directed towards master and up. More like Diamond and down. If he made the show so he could teach masters and GM, he would also practice his own knowledge. (Not saying sean doesnt know anything about the game lol, but once in a blue moon he does say some weird stuff)
On May 13 2012 09:26 b0rt_ wrote: every caster needs to play random to masters
Day9 has (had?) 3 GM accounts, and people still criticize him for a lack of relevant, high level knowledge.
Its a long time ago he had them I think. But honestly, IMO the Daily he makes isnt directed towards master and up. More like Diamond and down. If he made the show so he could teach masters and GM, he would also practice his own knowledge. (Not saying sean doesnt know anything about the game lol, but once in a blue moon he does say some weird stuff)
he made the show for Diamonds and down because thats the larger audience. Masters is the top 2% of players. limiting yourself like that is detrimental.
It wasn't so long ago that I was watching a stream, I can't remember who it was, but they had Day9 on the call. Sean was watching said players stream giving him tips and stuff. His game sense and predictions of what the opponent would do were quite impressive. That to me was more telling of his knowledge of the game than any Daily or shoutcast he has ever done (for the most part).
I don't mean to say that he is smarter or knows more than the pro's. So please don't take it like that (not directed at you The RealArtemis, just in general). Day9 clearly watches a lot of StarCraft and has a pretty firm grasp or RTS games. He just directs his Daily and casting in a more noob friendly manner because it fits the audience better. You know how with Tastosis, we have Artosis give the hardcore analysis and Tasteless give the more noob friendly stuff? Day9 just does both of those things himself. Even in professional sports casting, you don't see the highest level of analysis. Why? Because it will alienate a lot of your audience.
On May 13 2012 09:26 b0rt_ wrote: every caster needs to play random to masters
Day9 has (had?) 3 GM accounts, and people still criticize him for a lack of relevant, high level knowledge.
Its a long time ago he had them I think. But honestly, IMO the Daily he makes isnt directed towards master and up. More like Diamond and down. If he made the show so he could teach masters and GM, he would also practice his own knowledge. (Not saying sean doesnt know anything about the game lol, but once in a blue moon he does say some weird stuff)
he made the show for Diamonds and down because thats the larger audience. Masters is the top 2% of players. limiting yourself like that is detrimental.
It wasn't so long ago that I was watching a stream, I can't remember who it was, but they had Day9 on the call. Sean was watching said players stream giving him tips and stuff. His game sense and predictions of what the opponent would do were quite impressive. That to me was more telling of his knowledge of the game than any Daily or shoutcast he has ever done (for the most part).
I don't mean to say that he is smarter or knows more than the pro's. So please don't take it like that (not directed at you The RealArtemis, just in general). Day9 clearly watches a lot of StarCraft and has a pretty firm grasp or RTS games. He just directs his Daily and casting in a more noob friendly manner because it fits the audience better. You know how with Tastosis, we have Artosis give the hardcore analysis and Tasteless give the more noob friendly stuff? Day9 just does both of those things himself. Even in professional sports casting, you don't see the highest level of analysis. Why? Because it will alienate a lot of your audience.
Cloud's point doesn't relate to the dailies but casting things like dreamhack. The dailies have always been more of a 'get out of x league' type of show. If you listen and write down everything he says in an MLG/or x event you'd see he doesn't offer that near as much analysis. I understand that he has less time to prepare but at the end of the day I'd rather listen to someone saying something useful as opposed to someone barely touching on timings and possible transitions. Then again Day 9 is fun to listen to anyways so it doesn't matter as much.
On May 01 2012 23:56 inermis wrote: Actually in my opinion the SC2 community is for the most part built by great casters like day[9], tastosis, apollo,tb, khaldor and others. Without these people SC2 wouldn't be half of what it is now I think. There are lots of people who picked up SC2 just because they watched very entertaining cast, casters made them intrigued about the game, people wanted to give it a try to see for themselves how it really is to play SC2..
I'm one of them. I don't even play the game (since my computer isn't good enough). But I highly enjoy strategic games in general, and day9 really got me attracted to sc2. In fact, his "overanalysis" is probably what got me into it.
So then, I want to ask: Do the casters cast for the players or for the viewers?
Because if it's the former then it's obvious who is good: the popular ones. And I think that's the way it should be. A lot of spectators like me are watching to enjoy the games and not to boost the confidence of players. If the caster says bullshit well then it's too bad for the gullible spectator who believes it or for the frustrated player who doesn't agree. But at the end of the day, the viewers pay for the casters and for the players.
On the other hand I think that criticism is almost always a good thing, and that no one should be blamed for speaking their mind as long as it is polite.