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Disclaimer: This is a topic that has never received a well-noticed thread in the SC2 General section. I feel a thread is warranted and productive because it brings to light a potentially harmful practice and enables the community to hold accountable those engaging in the practice. Increased public exposure could serve as a deterrent to those currently selling this service, and the community could potentially identify more GM accounts that may be leveled. You may argue that I'm merely dragging people's names through the dirt, and that I should have just PMed them instead of making a thread. But, I think you'll see that this is widespread enough to make a thread.
SC2 progamers are selling account leveling services that bring an unknown number of accounts into GM and high master. Certain featured streamers have leveled accounts on stream and then been told by TL mods to stop. A simple Google search yields websites and forum threads devoted to leveling services, with claims that well-known progamers, all the way up to Code S, are performing the leveling. Some even claim that the player (who may be featured on TL), will stream the leveling for an extra fee. The levelers are never named, of course, and sometimes there are even disclaimers that the services will not be offered for long because the players could lose their jobs if caught by their teams.
The proof that this is happening is not hard to find. The most blatant example that I know of is MillDragon, who has been leveling accounts on stream. Here's a VOD of it - http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/324831636. Starting at ~58:00 he starts leveling silver account FX.Shidow for several games. Other pros that have been confirmed to do it are Destiny, Desrow, and Select (although it seems Select only did it for a short while and then stopped).
I've also found an example of a GM account that is being leveled by Naama:
+ Show Spoiler + It's rank 169 on NA (at the time of posting) IMMvp. Here's why I think this account is leveled by Naama: 1. The 1v1 player's hotkey patterns match exactly to Naama. The team game player's hotkeys are completely different, as is his skill level (far inferior). See below. 2. The owner of the account denies that it's leveled, and claims he simply uses different hotkeys for 1v1 and team games (see here; the "skrillex123" account is his as he admits earlier in that thread). Clearly he wants people to think he himself is good enough to be in GM, which is likely the reason people pay for leveling services. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just admit that he shares the account with Naama? 3. Given that the 1v1 player is irrefutably Naama, the only other possibility is that this is Naama's friend and they just share the account. Obviously, this is hypothetically possible and certainly not unprecedented; daisuki, for example, has admitted that he shares the NITRIX NA accounts with people who play the team games. But, what are the odds? Does Naama have a friend in the US that he just decided to ask to use his account to smurf on? Why wouldn't Naama have his own smurf account(s) in NA, possibly paid for by one of his former teams? 4. It's likely not the account owner just playing much better in 1v1s. As of season 6, the account was in silver in 1v1. The team game player's skill level, if you watch the replays below, is indeed silver or gold level. In season 7, the account jumped to top master, and of course now is GM. 5. Now for the hotkey graphs. Naama's hotkeys, pulled from drop.sc replays against Naniwa and Dimaga:IMMvp's 1v1 hotkeys:IMMvp's team game hotkeys:I also believe the owner of the account hacks in his team games and plays with other hackers, which leads to another problem with these leveling services. But I'll get back to that later.
The following are quotes taken from threads/websites created for leveling services. Each of these is from a different group offering the service:
+ Show Spoiler +"We have 2 of the finest Top 30 Grand Master Zerg Players to provide professional coaching and league/ranking services." "We have 2 of the best Grand Master Terrans. Both provide professional coaching and league/ranking services."
"We have already gotten quite a few customers in Grand Masters league in the past 3 months on the North American, European and South East Asian servers."
"We currently have top tier pro players of each race for account leveling!" "Up to TOP 16 GRANDMASTERS LEVELING!"
"All 1v1 orders are processed by highly experienced Grand Master players from Europe and North American servers."
"We have 3 Korean GM players each race."
"Our leveling service consists of some of the highest skilled players in the world, consistently top 16 GM on KOREA/NA/EU servers." Another ad for this service on another site states "1 of the players is a Korean GM Protoss, he is widely known in the starcraft 2 community and has a featured stream on Team Liquid"
"I have 1 top GM protoss and 1 top GM zerg. They both keep above a 65% win ratio in GM." As of 7/12/12 - "The service is re-opened, come one come all." "If the wrong person found out about this they could lose their job as professional gamer." These two players are going through a established hacker and site donor. Him speaking about an upcoming patch - "There is no set time for this patch to be released just that it is under development right now so get ready to update those hack/bot folders."
"The leveling will be done by a top 50 grandmasters zerg, top 25 grandmasters protoss and a top korean terran." Note he says "Hey I'm sure alot you guys have seen my free leveling thread, but I realized its not really realistic because of the amount of people that want leveling." He states he uses a maphack for the leveling he does personally.
Who cares?
Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. Besides, progamers need a little extra income. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons:
1. Need for money never excuses a wrong. Coaching would be a better avenue.
2. It hurts the competitive integrity of the ladder. Like it or not, the ladder does have meaning to the community at large. Similar to how hacking hurts the ladder's competitive integrity by providing hackers with an unfair advantage, account levelers have an unfair advantage over the vast majority of their opponents because the levelers' skill level is far above the league they're playing games in. Thus, whenever you play against a pro who's leveling an account, that game is just as meaningless to you competitively as if you were playing against a hacker. The ladder player base is already dwindling, we don't need people being under the impression that in any given game, they may well be playing against an account leveler or hacker. Lots of players are discouraged by lack of ladder progress, so we also don't need master league filled with leveled accounts.
3. It's against the EULA and the TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
You might argue that coaching would seem to fall under this part of the TOU. I would say it's reasonable for Blizzard to look past coaching since it will only benefit the community and the competitive integrity of the ladder. Blizzard also looks past things like relocalizers that allow people to switch between regions, but do modify game files if I'm not mistaken, because they can only benefit the community.
4. It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Granted, it's not the same level of recognition that tournament success grants, but it undeniably beneficial to a player to get into GM. Indeed, many aspiring semi-pro teams have ladder rank cut-offs for entry. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. The levelers also offer "maintaining services" to keep you in GM.
5. The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. Often you will see the same group advertising on multiple hacking sites. As an example of a hacker's account being leveled, I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13,
Do we really want pros giving legitimacy to the accounts of people who hack?
6. The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching.
9/24/12 UPDATE: The VeraLynn issue posted by KawaiiRice is further proof that a leveled account can be used as a facade to profit from other things such as coaching. This isn't necessarily small potatoes either considering this person was a representative of SixPoolGaming.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371282
7. It's possible that the people acting as middlemen between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further. The middlemen who offer their services on the most prominent hacking site are veterans of the site and in some cases "Advanced Hackers" and site donors. These people contribute money and add to the knowledge base of the site with their programming expertise (as demonstrated by their post history). I'm not linking to direct sources since I don't think TL allows any linking to hacking sites.
In addition, the leveling threads on hacking websites draw traffic and thus ad revenue to those sites. By adding leveling to the list of services offered at these sites, progamers are bolstering those sites' communities and potentially putting more money in hack creators' pockets. This can only be a bad thing because it encourages the hack creators to continue doing what they're doing, and potentially expand what they're doing.
In sum, I think this is a legitimate problem that needs addressing. I hope I have provided enough proof that it's happening. I don't intend to merely tarnish the names of the pros I mentioned, but I do think they should be criticized for this practice. Also, the example of Naama shows that by comparing hotkey graphs from sc2gears we can potentially identify other leveled accounts. I think this kind of thing is just as reprehensible as hacking and it should be put to an end.
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Pro's need $ and in e-sports their isn't enough going around unless you're a top contender in tourneys.. hell.. i've seen forgg stream him self account leveling and chat with the person he was doing it for... Don't think its that bad of a thing tbh
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Well done sir, you did your research and i commend you but I don't think this should be a big deal, sad truth is most "progamers" are very poor hoping for that one big performance to get stream viewers, sponsorships or big teams. Naama probably wasn't making very much from AL so needed to supplement his income and someone on NA probably sent him a pm and offered good money
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It is ladder abuse and thus cheating. In the past the community has tried to ban people who ladder abuse and cheat from all tournaments for a period of time.. And Kespa even banned people for life. Of course Blizzard will ban those accounts too.
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The bigger issue is that "pros" have to resort to this, it can only mean that they arent making enough money except perhaps the top 1% of the pros, mostly koreans.
There is no point in even addressing that average Joes are actually doing this, the matchmaking and ranking systems are meant to help you, to find equally skilled players so that you can have...you know...fun? Why did you even purchase game to begin with?
I guess bragging rights that you are in GM mean more to some people than the actual game
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is it against the sc2 EULA? other than that i dont think anyone has any grounds to do anything about it, and i doubt i care anyways
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How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right?
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I'm sorry for skimping around the main issue, but what compels people to pay for this in the first place? So they can brag to ignorant friends about how good they are?
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On July 16 2012 16:40 Tachion wrote: I'm sorry for skimping around the main issue, but what compels people to pay for this in the first place? So they can brag to ignorant friends about how good they are?
It seems like it's the only advantage since those GM accounts won't stay at GM level for very long right?
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having someone level your account is just sad. Stupid and sad. That's all. No big deal.
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this thread isn't about the general issue of progamers leveling accounts (which doesn't bother me anyways), it's about a Naama witch hunt, i'm sure there are many pros leveling accounts and you don't have to single out naama.
I know Kalin specifically (formerly blast) has leveled alot of accounts to GM and tons upon tons to masters on a website that I won't link here.
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I think it's nothing we should even care about. Pro gamers need money, because they are not paid very well (unless they are top-tier like Huk, NesTea etc. ). And if they can make some additional $ on some kids that think that their e-pen** will grow because they have GM on their account then it's good for the scene (players have money = they can play) and it doesn't really affect anyone else, except for a few unlucky guys who lost 10 ladder points.
Nice for you to get that data and show it. But really, didn't we know that such things happen already? On Polish official fansite forums you can find pro gamers offering "account power leveling". In my opinion you just wasted time to prove something that was a known fact already.
Hope there won't be any witch hunt or drama because of this thread. It would do nothing but hurt e-sports
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On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right?
Or you can just not play at all and show off your fancy GM icon for the rest of the season and put something like "GM Terran NA" in your TL sig, which I believe is the incentive for most of these people, rather than actually wanting to play in GM.
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On July 16 2012 16:44 Antares_ wrote:I think it's nothing we should even care about. Pro gamers need money, because they are not paid very well (unless they are top-tier like Huk, NesTea etc. ). And if they can make some additional $ on some kids that think that their e-pen** will grow because they have GM on their account then it's good for the scene (players have money = they can play) and it doesn't really affect anyone else, except for a few unlucky guys who lost 10 ladder points. Nice for you to get that data and show it. But really, didn't we know that such things happen already? On Polish official fansite forums you can find pro gamers offering "account power leveling". In my opinion you just wasted time to prove something that was a known fact already. Hope there won't be any witch hunt or drama because of this thread. It would do nothing but hurt e-sports
How can we harshly ban some people for some forms of cheating but not othes for other forms of cheating?
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Idiots supplementing pro gamer's meagre income? Sounds like a good thing to me...
Sidenote- why could players lose their jobs? Someone mentioned forGG streamed it... while he was teamless?
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I'm curious to see what some people who consider themselves "pro-gamers" have to say about it. IMO, it doesn't not reflect favorably on the "pro-gamer".
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Not a problem at all if u ask me. I hope mods will close this before it becomes another witchhunt, or someone wanna more hits?
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I honestly don't see anything wrong with leveling accounts other than the fact that it takes up a limited number of spots in GM. For every league below that, it's not an issue. If a player is only qualified for Diamond league and is leveled into Masters, they will not be succesful in that league. They will lose a ton of matches until the leveler levels them back up. This person will just lose a bunch and never actually be to the level required for those advanced leagues until they practice and get good enough to place in them. It is a little anoyying to level people into GM because there is a limited number of spots, however I expect those people to drop out quickly and they will be replaced with more qualified players.
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On July 16 2012 16:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right? Or you can just not play at all and show off your fancy GM icon for the rest of the season and put something like "GM Terran NA" in your TL sig, which I believe is the incentive for most of these people, rather than actually wanting to play in GM.
And then when they look at your 1v1 history, or ask to play a game against you? Let the lawlz commence. I honestly don't care. I think it's sad that pro gamers have to do this shit for money, but blame the esports scene for being greedy.
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Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right?
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You guys are denying it is manipulating the ladder unfairly and denying it is against Blizzard's rules?
How is it different from makhacking? Ladder abuse in the past in TSL ladder resulted in several people getting banned for a year or so for cheating just 1 game. This is about many many games.
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The ladder is already so lacking in integrity to begin with that another little thing on top of it should just be another thing to convince people to not take it seriously. If someone truly wants to get noticed, then they need to get results in tournaments.
Edit: And to people saying that this takes up a limited number of GM spots, what would you say if a progamer in GM bought another account of their own and leveled that to GM too? Or three? Or four? There's nothing against a player having multiple accounts in GM taking "spots" away from other players who might be "worthier," and so it shouldn't matter whether the account the progamer gets into GM is an account he owns or an account he doesn't own.
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On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right?
Be kinda fun for the pros too right? They get to show off and be badass on ladder. Must be like taking a small break for them.
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I don't have a problem with it. In reality even semi-pros don't have that much trouble reaching NA GM if they try. Ladder doesn't mean very much at the top level. Hacking does real damage to ladder play; this not so much. If there is a market and pros like naama can make some extra money to support themselves doing it, I have to come down in favor. Blizzard will ofc have their own stance but it seems they don't put real effort into finding abusers anyway.
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On July 16 2012 16:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right? Or you can just not play at all and show off your fancy GM icon for the rest of the season and put something like "GM Terran NA" in your TL sig, which I believe is the incentive for most of these people, rather than actually wanting to play in GM.
when you dont play you will loose your spot due to the bonus pool and when you play you will loose the spot due to loosing all games, because you are not gm level.
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Lol buying a leveled account in SC2 seems like one of the stupidest and most wasteful thing you can do with your money, but props to namaa anyway you work your moneymaker, whatever that is.
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On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right?
If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support.
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On July 16 2012 16:51 alderamin wrote: You guys are denying it is manipulating the ladder unfairly and denying it is against Blizzard's rules?
How is it different from makhacking? Ladder abuse in the past in TSL ladder resulted in several people getting banned for a year or so for cheating just 1 game. This is about many many games.
I think that the difference between hacking and this, is the fact that if you don't get caught, hacking can cause some serious problems for people while this is very temporary.
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Why do people make so many stupid and pointless threads... What is this going to do?
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Given that the 1v1 player is irrefutably Naama
Do not use this language with one piece of evidence.
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On July 16 2012 16:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right? Or you can just not play at all and show off your fancy GM icon for the rest of the season and put something like "GM Terran NA" in your TL sig, which I believe is the incentive for most of these people, rather than actually wanting to play in GM.
Yeah, but the GM icon surrounded by the gold and plat icons might be a bit of a giveaway. I guess it would make sense for high masters players... but then again, how can anyone so dumb make it to high masters?
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On July 16 2012 16:53 iRon aka bananajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:44 Talin wrote:On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right? Or you can just not play at all and show off your fancy GM icon for the rest of the season and put something like "GM Terran NA" in your TL sig, which I believe is the incentive for most of these people, rather than actually wanting to play in GM. when you dont play you will loose your spot due to the bonus pool and when you play you will loose the spot due to loosing all games, because you are not gm level.
Once you're in though, you won't lose the spot until next season, provided you keep your pool low.
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- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA
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On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support.
I think that we'll need a confirmation from a pro in NA/EU/KOR/etc to see whether or not it's possible to sustain oneself reasonably without having some extra money injections. Some pros (like Nestea) are good enough to win tournaments on their own, and have a salary. I don't know what it's like for other pros though.
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Let the pros make their money.
If someone wants to pay for this, there's really no victim here. Pros get the financial support they need and the guy gets his GM badge. The "integrity of the ladder" is already completely horrible. This is no different than pro's having smurf accounts. They smurf on that account for a season then "sell" it back to its original owner.
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What the hell? People think progamers need the money? They are cheating the ladder, that's what it is. Cannot fathom why people would say this is acceptable. Invites to various tournaments/qualifiers are based on the ladder ranking, so it better mean something... :/
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On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA
So you can cheat and Blizzard can't do a think about it... lol
You don't go to jail if you break Blizzard's rules. You will get banned. Different issues.
It's amazing that people defend it by saying it is not a big deal. It is more amazing to see people say it is not a big deal because it doesn't hurt esports (Why isn't Blizzard in esports jail then?) What baffles me the most is people say it's ok because progames need money. Wowow the logic. Don't even know where to start. Normal people don't need money? If you need money you can break the rules/law? If they are professionals why do they need the money? Doesn't it imply they have it already?
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On July 16 2012 16:55 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support. I think that we'll need a confirmation from a pro in NA/EU/KOR/etc to see whether or not it's possible to sustain oneself reasonably without having some extra money injections. Some pros (like Nestea) are good enough to win tournaments on their own, and have a salary. I don't know what it's like for other pros though.
Well that draws an interesting question; if a player can't win enough to sustain themselves are they actually a pro? Where do you draw the line between a pro player and someone who just plays a lot of starcraft?
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On July 16 2012 16:57 Ketch wrote: What the hell? People think progamers need the money? They are cheating the ladder, that's what it is. Cannot fathom why people would say this is acceptable. Invites to various tournaments/qualifiers are based on the ladder ranking, so it better mean something... :/
One would think that the people in gold/play who know that they're not a GM-class player would know ahead of time that they aren't good enough to do well at the qualifiers/tournaments to make it worth their time, and getting humiliated on stage wouldn't be fun for them at any level.
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- It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM.
GM has tons of issues, this doesn't add much to it. There are already a lot of players with multiple GM accounts clogging the top 200, adding a few extra does little other than making an already bad system a tiny bit worse. I'm all in favor of our pro gamers getting more money from stupid people so that they can continue playing the game they love.
All in all I don't think this is a big deal.
To those saying that it is manipulating the ladder and omg honor and integrity: the ladder is hardly a perfect system and it is constantly manipulated. IE the players that get in GM by gaming the system (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=293637). Or the players that go to the very bottom of the ladder to portrait farm, committing a "bannable offense" by leaving games constantly. It is hurting people about as much as the steam sales discourage people from buying games. Which is not at all.
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On July 16 2012 16:57 alderamin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:
- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA So you can cheat and Blizzard can't do a think about it... lol You don't go to jail if you break Blizzard's rules. You will get banned. Different issues. It's amazing that people defend it by saying it is not a big deal. It is more amazing to see people say it is not a big deal because it doesn't hurt esports (Why isn't Blizzard in esports jail then?) What baffles me the most is people say it's ok because progames need money. Wowow the logic. Don't even know where to start. I believe a judge ruled that digital products have to be resellable. It goes above blizzard actually; they have to let you resell your game.
edit: plz start, i dont know what you have to argue against all those valid points.
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On July 16 2012 16:59 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:55 IntoTheheart wrote:On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support. I think that we'll need a confirmation from a pro in NA/EU/KOR/etc to see whether or not it's possible to sustain oneself reasonably without having some extra money injections. Some pros (like Nestea) are good enough to win tournaments on their own, and have a salary. I don't know what it's like for other pros though. Well that draws an interesting question; if a player can't win enough to sustain themselves are they actually a pro? Where do you draw the line between a pro player and someone who just plays a lot of starcraft?
To me a pro is someone sponsored by a team or sponsor. But I don't know how much money is in a sponsorship. That's why I wanted a pro to respond to whether or not it's possible to sustain themselves as a gamer easily (without getting an additional day job to keep food on the table, or having to stream about 12 hours a day to get the ad revenue money up).
If it's enough that one can easily survive and live decently, I'll agree that it's not the right decision to make.
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Most of your points are not that big of deal but you bring up the fact about up and coming players trying to get into GM. This is a very good point considering that once you are placed into GM its almost impossible to be demoted until next season. And for players who are pro level its not very hard to re-level accounts each season.
Something should be done as it hurts top masters players trying to break into the scene. I float around the high masters level and offer free coaching my current goal is to break into GM and possibly start charging a nominal fee. Things like this make it harder for people like me.
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On July 16 2012 17:02 jcroisdale wrote: Most of your points are not that big of deal but you bring up the fact about up and coming players trying to get into GM. This is a very good point considering that once you are placed into GM its almost impossible to be demoted until next season. And for players who are pro level its not very hard to re-level accounts each season.
Something should be done as it hurts top masters players trying to break into the scene. I float around the high masters level and offer free coaching my current goal is to break into GM and possibly start charging a nominal fee. Things like this make it harder for people like me.
If you don't mind me asking, do people (customers I mean) look at high masters and GM differently (assuming that they know that getting out of GM is really, really hard).
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I can see that it might become an issue if tournaments like the WCS use ladder ranks as consideration for spots at tournaments. Didn't we all raise hell when that maphacker got a trip to WCS USA? It is possible that this could become an issue.
Otherwise, it is just sketchy to me, but there isn't much you can do about it. Pros need to make a living, and many don't see an issue with getting paid to level an account. It's not egregious, and I hope it stays that way.
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the problems are that ppl are clogging up gm slots and also ppl that got their accs leveled can use gm as credential to sell coaching to those that don't know any better. its a big issue if you think about that ...
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On July 16 2012 17:00 Insomni7 wrote: I believe a judge ruled that digital products have to be resellable. It goes above blizzard actually; they have to let you resell your game.
edit: plz start, i dont know what you have to argue against all those valid points.
I edited and added it anyway considering there's so many idiots here.
Cheating the ladder and reselling digital products are completely different things. Ladder manipulation is ladder abuse is cheating. It is pretty clear. Blizzard will ban you account for that. How can you argue in court? "I should be allowed to cheat boo boo." Also, if these fake progamers need money so badly they are forced to cheat/hack, then how are they going to pay for the lawyer?
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I guess the part about people selling fake lessons is actually pretty awful.
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Back when i played WoW this used to be a bit of a problem with kids paying to have people carry arena teams, i had a 2500 rated team and never engaged in the practice myself and wasnt particularly phased by it - at the end of the day they will always be gutter. It makes even less sense in starcraft because whilst in WoW there is the capacity to access greater gear no such benefits exist in SC2 and thus such accounts as far as im concerned are no different to people smurfing.
At the end of the day, once the account has been power leveled it will be dormant in the pool because whoever the real owner is will know they're incapable of queuing into high masters/GM players.
For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it
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On July 16 2012 17:04 KimJongChill wrote: I guess the part about people selling fake lessons is actually pretty awful.
Mmhmm. Does anyone actually do this though? I'm hoping that people who get powerlevelled by a pro would have the foresight that it's not a great idea to screw with peoples' minds.
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Whether its Naama, or Forgg leveing an account, it doesn't matter really, its not right. Sure, you can use the arguement that they need money too, but that isn't good enough.
If they wanna make a little more money then they should do lessons.
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Halo pros used to make account in Halo 3 and get them to rank 50 and sell them. I don't think its that big of a deal
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Whats the max bonus pool you can have to stay in GM again? 50- 100? so thats what, maybe 5-7 days? Man, So many stupid people on the internet. Same douchbags who spend on their money in the d3 RMAH IMO... no skill, no patience, big mouth...
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Lol who the fuck gives a fuck? These kinds of things are so silly. OMG they aren't following the eula 100%, scumbag criminals omgawd. While we are on the subject of eula, have you even read it?
On July 16 2012 17:10 Douillos wrote: Whats the max bonus pool you can have to stay in GM again? 50- 100? so thats what, maybe 5-7 days? Man, So many stupid people on the internet. Same douchbags who spend on their money in the d3 RMAH IMO... no skill, no patience, big mouth...
I think people who make these kinds of topics are far worse scumbags.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
Reasons this is a serious matter 1. Lowers the integrity of the ladder 2. Some aspiring players rely on ladder ranking to get noticed 3. Some tournaments look at ladder ranking for invites/qualification 4. Against EULA? Not sure 5. Cheating is cheating is cheating, ends don't justify the means, etc.
Reasons why it isn't so bad: 1. Pros don't take ladder seriously; only tournament results matter 2. The ladder isn't very good nor accurate 3. Lots of pros and other good players have multiple accounts hogging all the GM spots anyway 4. Semi-pros get to earn some money 5. This doesn't hurt esports....... ???
Overall I think that if Blizzard take their ladder seriously then they should at least try to make sure accounts like these never make it to GM, unless the accounts are played on frequently enough to count as a smurf (then I guess they should qualify). I do think that the accounts need to be punished (not be allowed into GM or masters[?]), but I don't think that players should be banned or expelled because of it.
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On July 16 2012 17:00 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:59 Zrana wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 IntoTheheart wrote:On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support. I think that we'll need a confirmation from a pro in NA/EU/KOR/etc to see whether or not it's possible to sustain oneself reasonably without having some extra money injections. Some pros (like Nestea) are good enough to win tournaments on their own, and have a salary. I don't know what it's like for other pros though. Well that draws an interesting question; if a player can't win enough to sustain themselves are they actually a pro? Where do you draw the line between a pro player and someone who just plays a lot of starcraft? To me a pro is someone sponsored by a team or sponsor. But I don't know how much money is in a sponsorship. That's why I wanted a pro to respond to whether or not it's possible to sustain themselves as a gamer easily (without getting an additional day job to keep food on the table, or having to stream about 12 hours a day to get the ad revenue money up). If it's enough that one can easily survive and live decently, I'll agree that it's not the right decision to make.
What about grubby? I think he is not sponsored by anyone
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I approve of this. It means I have a small chance to play against a progamer some day!
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Won't you be remove from GM if you don't play ? Pretty sure i read that somewhere.
If not, just wait a little the account will go down. It's just the stupidest way of spending your money. I have still a little faith in humanity and don't believe that there so much of people paying for that.
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I don't really see the problem. Most pro's need the extra income and if it lets more people practice full-time, then that equals better games for the rest of us to watch.
On the point that it keeps semi-pro's out of GM, I would say if they can't make GM then they aren't worth going pro in the first place and not really worthy of a team. Not to mention even if GM was just 10 people and the rest their accounts, all you would need to do is perform well at a tournament, look at Scarlett.
To the offering coaching, if you are taking coaching off someone you have never seen play then that's on you and the people in need of high level coaching, not just learning basics, would be able to tell the person doesn't know what they are talking about fast.
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Sad that it keeps people out of GM who want to be there. I feel that it is indeed a big issue for those. Sad that it is only 0.01% of the community so probably nothing will happen because nobody will care.
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On July 16 2012 17:05 tsango wrote: For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it
People seriously need to educate themselves about the ladder if they want to have a talk in this. Anyone is able to maintain GM for a season. Once you're in, you can lose an infinite amount of games as long as you keep the bonus pool low. You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies.
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Is it that time for a witch-hunt already?
Apparently a moron paying a pro to smurf their account for a couple hours is as bad as hacking the game.
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I am actually quite against cheating, even if it's not hurting anyone even if that were the case.
But, there is something that upsets me about SC2 more than anything, I wish I could ladder against pros and get stomped over and over. I've leveled up to high level in game play using this method, but the only way I can do this in SC2 is customs, which is much too slow.
So, though I believe it's wrong for people to do this, I believe Blizzard should input something to allow people to challenge themselves much better. Not everyone learns the same way or is motivated the same way, I'm more motivated when I get utterly demolished than when I kinda lose.
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this has no meaning because if naama plays on an account and he is good, ppl who hit him on ladder get good practice. It does not hurt the ladder at all, cheesers and cheaters are much worse.
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i cant see any point, who cares the EULA ?
one pro let another pro play ? well who cares they both good enemys to play against its not like cheating its not even bad cause naama is the way nicer player ^^
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On July 16 2012 17:24 GertHeart wrote: I am actually quite against cheating, even if it's not hurting anyone even if that were the case.
But, there is something that upsets me about SC2 more than anything, I wish I could ladder against pros and get stomped over and over. I've leveled up to high level in game play using this method, but the only way I can do this in SC2 is customs, which is much too slow.
So, though I believe it's wrong for people to do this, I believe Blizzard should input something to allow people to challenge themselves much better. Not everyone learns the same way or is motivated the same way, I'm more motivated when I get utterly demolished than when I kinda lose.
You've gotta play customs for that. It would be absolutely ridiculous if the ladder matched you against people who are 1/10th as good as you.
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Personally couldn't care less about the 'account levelling', I'm afraid. I dont think there is any real value in the ladder placements at all. There could and probably are numerous pro accounts high on the ladder anyway; So what if they take up another spot? Real recognition comes from performance in tournament scenarios.
But if he's a hacker, permanently ban his account
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Interesting that ppl here seems to have quite an indifferent attitude. In my opinion, powerleveling is a quite bad, but not as bad as hacking though. It destroys the integrity of the ladder and I'm quite surprised that many pros are accepting this tainted money. I find it amusing that people get very worked up over hacking but ignore other issues.
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People that DESERVE the high ranks will most likely always end up where they should , no reason getting butthurt about that. That being said most of the progamers have at least few accounts they play on and many of them already have multiple accounts in grandmasters anyway. People that buy account boosting will never end up being good or recognised anyway and it definately doesnt hurt for progamers to have an additional source of extra income. And no , grandmaster rarely provides any kind of recognition , proof of that being ~150/200 people in grandmasters no1 has ever heared about in every region.
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The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless.
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Don't care much about this, as long hacks are not usable and dealt with. That is the more important issue.
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On July 16 2012 17:23 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:05 tsango wrote: For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it People seriously need to educate themselves about the ladder if they want to have a talk in this. Anyone is able to maintain GM for a season. Once you're in, you can lose an infinite amount of games as long as you keep the bonus pool low. You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies.
How do you keep the bonus pool low if you never win?
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On July 16 2012 17:38 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:23 Mandalor wrote:On July 16 2012 17:05 tsango wrote: For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it People seriously need to educate themselves about the ladder if they want to have a talk in this. Anyone is able to maintain GM for a season. Once you're in, you can lose an infinite amount of games as long as you keep the bonus pool low. You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies. How do you keep the bonus pool low if you never win?
Your MMR still drops. Which means eventually you get placed against people of your own skill level. So theoretically you can be a GM playing Gold players and still retain your GM status.
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TBH I support the pro's doing this. Yes it screws up the ladder(not that it isn't particularly screwed up already), but if you actually look at the state of SC2, there are maybe 2 dozen pros at most who make enough off of tourney winnings alone to support themselves, and probably about a couple dozen more where team+winnings is enough to support themselves(support defined as food+board). The rest of them have to find ways to support themselves, and if they can make guranteed $200(don't actually know the sum) in a day or two, then all the power to them.
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On July 16 2012 16:51 alderamin wrote: You guys are denying it is manipulating the ladder unfairly and denying it is against Blizzard's rules?
How is it different from makhacking? Ladder abuse in the past in TSL ladder resulted in several people getting banned for a year or so for cheating just 1 game. This is about many many games.
Well it's a lot different from maphacking in the sense that nobody is getting cheated out of a match unfairly. The pro's still have to play legit to beat all those players.
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On July 16 2012 17:38 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:23 Mandalor wrote:On July 16 2012 17:05 tsango wrote: For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it People seriously need to educate themselves about the ladder if they want to have a talk in this. Anyone is able to maintain GM for a season. Once you're in, you can lose an infinite amount of games as long as you keep the bonus pool low. You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies. How do you keep the bonus pool low if you never win? From the same guy you just quoted - "You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies."
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On July 16 2012 17:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless.
The apathy towards it astounds me. People saying ladder doesn't matter anyway, well it certainly won't if we let stuff like this slide.
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Other than being against the EULA and making bad players play vs GM players I dont see why this is a big issue at all if pros can make a bit of extra coin off it
I dont see why this does any harm even if it could be categorized as softcore maphacking ?
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Oky, let me put it to you this way: - The only reason why this happens is because some pros make very little money - The only reason why this hurt someone is because some people that wish to be pros will be discouraged
So isn't this... good ? If the low tier pros don't make enough money and have to do this kinda of stuff to make more than its obviously not a very good thing to aspire to, thus by doing this the guys are helping some kids that want to get into something they don't know enough about to realize it won't yelled them enough money AND are helping themselves. They are also taking away money from stupid people that want those accounts, which is a good thing in terms of "morale".
Considering the above, without saying any information in your post is false, I don't believe this is a problem but rather something good.
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hahahahaha, I've always wondered who is ranked above me in the ladder with the name IMMvp ( i was ranked 2 Masters at this moment, and he had like 40-4 stats or smth like that ). I msg that account, but he never answered. Nice to see that that was Naama :D
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On July 16 2012 17:16 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:00 IntoTheheart wrote:On July 16 2012 16:59 Zrana wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 IntoTheheart wrote:On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support. I think that we'll need a confirmation from a pro in NA/EU/KOR/etc to see whether or not it's possible to sustain oneself reasonably without having some extra money injections. Some pros (like Nestea) are good enough to win tournaments on their own, and have a salary. I don't know what it's like for other pros though. Well that draws an interesting question; if a player can't win enough to sustain themselves are they actually a pro? Where do you draw the line between a pro player and someone who just plays a lot of starcraft? To me a pro is someone sponsored by a team or sponsor. But I don't know how much money is in a sponsorship. That's why I wanted a pro to respond to whether or not it's possible to sustain themselves as a gamer easily (without getting an additional day job to keep food on the table, or having to stream about 12 hours a day to get the ad revenue money up). If it's enough that one can easily survive and live decently, I'll agree that it's not the right decision to make. What about grubby? I think he is not sponsored by anyone
Grubby isn't a great example I feel, because he is a WC3 legend. He is mildly successful at SC2, but he's already created a legacy for himself, and whenever he goes to nations like China, he is treated like a celebrity. It's kind of like Boxer. Boxer's achievements in SC2 by themselves are not that impressive, and can be seen as just another Korean Terran. But Boxer has that "legend" status, and he doesn't worry about money.
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On July 16 2012 17:42 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless. The apathy towards it astounds me. People saying ladder doesn't matter anyway, well it certainly won't if we let stuff like this slide.
Ladder matter for people that play the game, and if you are "Robbed" of playing against a Weak person posing as GM than I am truly sorry.
The fact is Pros should be able to support themselves by their ability to play the game. How many other people "account share" and this isn't being brought up about them.
Pros use to advertise for this when the game first came out but since it breaks the EULA that was shut down. I am just shocked that someone would care and go through the effort to expose something so unimportant.
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On July 16 2012 17:03 KawaiiRice wrote: the problems are that ppl are clogging up gm slots and also ppl that got their accs leveled can use gm as credential to sell coaching to those that don't know any better. its a big issue if you think about that ...
that's actually so true
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for me it is funny, because this is also (amongst others) a side-effect of the elitist behaviour on TL when you are bronze-platinum, basically the only thing you are allowed to post on the strategy forum is a thread "help me i don't know why i'm losing" with added replays, and you will always hear that your macro sucks whenever you want to join in on a discussion you get shut down cold because only masters++ are said to have enough game knowledge to be accepted in any way. Thus making it all the way more appealing to get your account leveled to high masters/GM, so you can start your post with "GM on NA server here". And suddenly people will take your statement seriously
(of course this is not always the case, but most of the time i feel like this)
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On July 16 2012 17:47 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:42 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 17:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless. The apathy towards it astounds me. People saying ladder doesn't matter anyway, well it certainly won't if we let stuff like this slide. Ladder matter for people that play the game, and if you are "Robbed" of playing against a Weak person posing as GM than I am truly sorry. The fact is Pros should be able to support themselves by their ability to play the game. How many other people "account share" and this isn't being brought up about them. Pros use to advertise for this when the game first came out but since it breaks the EULA that was shut down. I am just shocked that someone would care and go through the effort to expose something so unimportant.
Well I have no idea if I've ever played against someone being levelled. If so, I wouldn't care about that singular match. What I do care about is my rank. I want my rank to mean something, even if I am just a lowly Diamond.
I play Starcraft to have fun and to improve. My rank is a reflection of my improvement. If the ladder is compromised in this way, my rank is meaningless. Now I lose motivation to play.
I like people to earn their way, both in life, and in Starcraft. Paying your way into advantageous positions in any aspect of life is frankly disgusting to me.
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I don't see the point for the buyers, this happens in other games aswell, however then there is usually something to show for it (WoW Gladiator title). I doubt the buyers would be able to keep up with the league they are boosted to, I guess they have their reasons though.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On July 16 2012 17:52 Cirqueenflex wrote: for me it is funny, because this is also (amongst others) a side-effect of the elitist behaviour on TL when you are bronze-platinum, basically the only thing you are allowed to post on the strategy forum is a thread "help me i don't know why i'm losing" with added replays, and you will always hear that your macro sucks whenever you want to join in on a discussion you get shut down cold because only masters++ are said to have enough game knowledge to be accepted in any way. Thus making it all the way more appealing to get your account leveled to high masters/GM, so you can start your post with "GM on NA server here". And suddenly people will take your statement seriously
(of course this is not always the case, but most of the time i feel like this)
When you see polls on TL about ladder rank, it almost seems like 75% of the world's Masters and GM players post here regularly. Almost everyone that posts on the Strategy forum also claim to be Diamond or up.
Obviously I find that a liiiiiiiiitle suspicious. :p
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On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further.
- Who cares about the EULA?
- Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom.
- Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised.
- Go ahead and name the people doing it.
If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this.
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The reason you'd buy GM is so that you can tell people how good you used to be
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Nuked
User was warned for this post
Not sure if I'm allowed to nuke the warning as well, anyone?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
I would also like to add that I find it curious that there are so many people who think this is fine (as long as some pros make money, for esports!). I bet if you changed the circumstances from Starcraft to some other real life scenario/sport/game/whatever, there'd be millions of keyboard warriors sermoning about morals and integrity and character and justice and lawfulness and.... you get my point.
Not that I think this is particularly bad (already gave my opinion a few pages ago), I just find it funny how everything is suddenly okay as long as it "supports esports".
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On July 16 2012 17:41 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:51 alderamin wrote: You guys are denying it is manipulating the ladder unfairly and denying it is against Blizzard's rules?
How is it different from makhacking? Ladder abuse in the past in TSL ladder resulted in several people getting banned for a year or so for cheating just 1 game. This is about many many games. Well it's a lot different from maphacking in the sense that nobody is getting cheated out of a match unfairly. The pro's still have to play legit to beat all those players.
Everybody gets cheated a tiny bit.
It's spread out. I can steal a 100 euro bill from you and I gan 100 and you lose 100. Or I can print a new 100 euro bill. Then I gain 100 euro. Say there'e 100 million people using the euro then I stole 100/1 000 000 from everyone. It is still theft. And it is actually theft of the same magnitude.
What does it matter if I win a game I shouldn't win through maphacking or through letting someone else play for me who will automatically win because of his skill? What is the difference?
The GM and masters that do this know it's cheating and they know it's immoral and weak character of them to do it. They must be laughing their ass off seeing people try to defend them.
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Many pros have smurf accounts in GM (especially KR) so I don't really care. You can't get to GM? You are simply not good enough, that's all. You want recognition? Win online cups.
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Wasnt it general knowledge that Immvp is Naama's smurf? Didnt think it was a secret.
Oh well, I dont get what the deal here is anyway.
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I remember ShowTime.WeRRa doing this 10 years ago in WC3 ROC. Not much drama going around if people seriously care about something trivial like this.
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On July 16 2012 17:58 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further. - Who cares about the EULA? - Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom. - Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised. - Go ahead and name the people doing it.If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this.
He did already name one and I personally have two guys on spec in the EU ladder. But I won't tell you the names until I know more about it. I don't want to start a witch hunt like in the maphacker thread.
Edit: Also quoting Kawaii on this because he is right
On July 16 2012 17:03 KawaiiRice wrote: the problems are that ppl are clogging up gm slots and also ppl that got their accs leveled can use gm as credential to sell coaching to those that don't know any better. its a big issue if you think about that ...
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On July 16 2012 17:44 Aterons_toss wrote: Oky, let me put it to you this way: - The only reason why this happens is because some pros make very little money - The only reason why this hurt someone is because some people that wish to be pros will be discouraged
So isn't this... good ? If the low tier pros don't make enough money and have to do this kinda of stuff to make more than its obviously not a very good thing to aspire to, thus by doing this the guys are helping some kids that want to get into something they don't know enough about to realize it won't yelled them enough money AND are helping themselves. They are also taking away money from stupid people that want those accounts, which is a good thing in terms of "morale".
Considering the above, without saying any information in your post is false, I don't believe this is a problem but rather something good. What about the hundreds of high level masters that can compete with GM players? They would like a spot in GM. It's hard enough to get into GM league already, and if GM league starts getting filled with noob accounts that were levelled by players like Naama, I believe that's very unfair on the high-masters players who are trying to make a name for themselves.
Like it or not, being in GM definitely does have advantages to an aspiring player like that. For instance - if you stream, people are going to want to watch a "Grandmaster zerg" over a "High masters zerg", it's just natural. Teams/clans are more likely to take note of you. People will naturally want to be coached by someone in GM over someone in master's.
In short, there are most definitely benefits in getting into Grandmaster's as an unestablished/aspiring pro. It won't make you a better player - but it raises your profile, which IS a big deal.
This is essentially just ladder abuse. GSL banned choya for ladder abuse, and all he did was play rock-paper-scissors for points. It breaks the rules you agreed on with Blizzard when you bought the game. If GM has accounts in it that are actually silver level players (and they can stay there for the WHOLE season), it completely delegitimizes the ladder. It blows my mind that you think this is a good thing.
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On July 16 2012 18:06 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:58 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further. - Who cares about the EULA? - Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom. - Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised. - Go ahead and name the people doing it.If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this. He did already name one and I personally have two guys on spec in the EU ladder. But I won't tell you the names until I know more about it. I don't want to start a witch hunt like in the maphacker thread.
Was referring to people who bought leveling services and then turned around and tried to use it as credentials to sell coaching. I could name several pros too who level/have levelled accounts. I'm indifferent, but if other people are gonna go apeshit then I'll just withhold them.
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On July 16 2012 18:02 lichter wrote: I would also like to add that I find it curious that there are so many people who think this is fine (as long as some pros make money, for esports!). I bet if you changed the circumstances from Starcraft to some other real life scenario/sport/game/whatever, there'd be millions of keyboard warriors sermoning about morals and integrity and character and justice and lawfulness and.... you get my point.
Not that I think this is particularly bad (already gave my opinion a few pages ago), I just find it funny how everything is suddenly okay as long as it "supports esports". I dont give a shit about it "supports esports".
I just dont think its a big deal. When a GM player starts to play a low MMR account, the MMR climbs incredibly fast. I think after like 10-20 games he plays the same players as with his main account. Why should the GM players care if they play against the Immvp or the Naama account? The skill of the player they meet is the same.
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On July 16 2012 18:06 xsksc wrote: What about the hundreds of high level masters that can compete with GM players? They would like a spot in GM. It's hard enough to get into GM league already, and if GM league starts getting filled with noob accounts that were levelled by players like Naama, I believe that's very unfair on the high-masters players who are trying to make a name for themselves.
Like it or not, being in GM definitely does have advantages to an aspiring player like that. For instance - if you stream, people are going to want to watch a "Grandmaster zerg" over a "High masters zerg", it's just natural. Teams/clans are more likely to take note of you. People will naturally want to be coached by someone in GM over someone in master's.
In short, there are most definitely benefits in getting into Grandmaster's as an unestablished/aspiring pro. It won't make you a better player - but it raises your profile, which IS a big deal.
This is essentially just ladder abuse. GSL banned choya for ladder abuse, and all he did was play rock-paper-scissors for points. It breaks the rules you agreed on with Blizzard when you bought the game. If GM has accounts in it that are actually silver level players (and they can stay there for the WHOLE season), it completely delegitimizes the ladder. It blows my mind that you think this is a good thing. It blows my mind that you think that anyone on a pro level care about ladder. If you stream, people are going to watch someone with a personality, not ladder points. Winning GO4SC2/Zotac > being GM.
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On July 16 2012 18:10 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:06 Yello wrote:On July 16 2012 17:58 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further. - Who cares about the EULA? - Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom. - Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised. - Go ahead and name the people doing it.If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this. He did already name one and I personally have two guys on spec in the EU ladder. But I won't tell you the names until I know more about it. I don't want to start a witch hunt like in the maphacker thread. Was referring to people who bought leveling services and then turned around and tried to use it as credentials to sell coaching. I could name several pros too who level/have levelled accounts. I'm indifferent, but if other people are gonna go apeshit then I'll just withhold them.
Yes, I was referring to people getting their accounts leveled and then offering coaching. I think there are some of those guys on the EU ladder, offering coaching for example in the teamliquid chat channel. I don't know if they take money for it but I fear they do.
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On July 16 2012 18:11 CDR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:06 xsksc wrote: What about the hundreds of high level masters that can compete with GM players? They would like a spot in GM. It's hard enough to get into GM league already, and if GM league starts getting filled with noob accounts that were levelled by players like Naama, I believe that's very unfair on the high-masters players who are trying to make a name for themselves.
Like it or not, being in GM definitely does have advantages to an aspiring player like that. For instance - if you stream, people are going to want to watch a "Grandmaster zerg" over a "High masters zerg", it's just natural. Teams/clans are more likely to take note of you. People will naturally want to be coached by someone in GM over someone in master's.
In short, there are most definitely benefits in getting into Grandmaster's as an unestablished/aspiring pro. It won't make you a better player - but it raises your profile, which IS a big deal.
This is essentially just ladder abuse. GSL banned choya for ladder abuse, and all he did was play rock-paper-scissors for points. It breaks the rules you agreed on with Blizzard when you bought the game. If GM has accounts in it that are actually silver level players (and they can stay there for the WHOLE season), it completely delegitimizes the ladder. It blows my mind that you think this is a good thing. It blows my mind that you think that anyone on a pro level care about ladder. If you stream, people are going to watch someone with a personality, not ladder points. Winning GO4SC2/Zotac > being GM. Where did I say being gm was better than winning tournaments? I said it helps in raising your profile. Do you deny that it does? Are you speaking for every single high masters player when you say that they don't care about ladder?
edit; Also, personality doesn't matter if people haven't clicked on your stream yet. Personality will help KEEP people watching, but for them to even see your content, they have to click your stream on the list. For example - a stream titled GM X vs a stream titled High master X, it's going to attract more people to click on it, even if it's only 50 people. More recognition is definitely benefitial when you're starting out.
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Why does it matter? Ladder can hardly be used for practice due to the terrible LE map pool and other various things such as build order snipe. Ladders imo are used for epeen boost and has nothing to do with integrity and honor. As long as the pros arent hacking it should be fine imo, they gotta get money somehow. NOBODY cares that you made it into GM imo, nice you get a cool looking badge but if you cant win any tourneys there is no reason to brag. Btw, why do you single out naama? What if another random player, not necessarily pro, uses the same hotkey set up as naama?
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i really hope gm will disappear soon, nothing good coming from it
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I dont see any of this being harmless to the buyer, seller, or breaking any rules even though it's against the rules for w.e reason. They will probably just get demoted the next season anyways. Just a huge pathetic waste of money to the buyer that can't spend their money on something better, but hey it's their hard earned money People also do this on D3 by providing service to level characters to 60 on JSP.
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On July 16 2012 18:19 seansye wrote: I dont see any of this being harmless to the buyer, seller, or breaking any rules even though it's against the rules for w.e reason. They will probably just get demoted the next season anyways. Just a huge pathetic waste of money to the buyer that can't spend their money on something better, but hey it's their hard earned money People also do this on D3 by providing service to level characters to 60 on JSP.
No one is affected by you being carried to lvl 60. Players who are trying to break into GM, however, are hurt by pros who level up bad players accounts to GM, taking the of the few spots available. It's not comparable at all.
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I really don't see how this is a big deal, at this point in esports being a pro gamer usually doesn't end up making you a lot of money. Given all the shit blizzard is unable to deal with that does hurt esports and even ladder itself, I really don't see the problem in a few accounts here and there having the wrong mmr.
Personally I really don't see the point at letting someone else level your account, but it's certainly not a big deal.
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On July 16 2012 18:20 Tobberoth wrote:
No one is affected by you being carried to lvl 60. Players who are trying to break into GM, however, are hurt by pros who level up bad players accounts to GM, taking the of the few spots available. It's not comparable at all.
So do we ban pro players from having multiple gm accounts? Good luck with that...
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On July 16 2012 18:20 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:19 seansye wrote: I dont see any of this being harmless to the buyer, seller, or breaking any rules even though it's against the rules for w.e reason. They will probably just get demoted the next season anyways. Just a huge pathetic waste of money to the buyer that can't spend their money on something better, but hey it's their hard earned money People also do this on D3 by providing service to level characters to 60 on JSP.
No one is affected by you being carried to lvl 60. Players who are trying to break into GM, however, are hurt by pros who level up bad players accounts to GM, taking the of the few spots available. It's not comparable at all.
People who have to pay to get their accounts to GM are eventually going to fall off. Its not like being in GM gives you and special privileges. As long as your MMR is high enough you will be able to match with any GM player even if you're in masters.
This is a serious non issue. A real issue is hackers that take up a GM spot and can actually keep their spots.
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On July 16 2012 18:20 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:19 seansye wrote: I dont see any of this being harmless to the buyer, seller, or breaking any rules even though it's against the rules for w.e reason. They will probably just get demoted the next season anyways. Just a huge pathetic waste of money to the buyer that can't spend their money on something better, but hey it's their hard earned money People also do this on D3 by providing service to level characters to 60 on JSP.
No one is affected by you being carried to lvl 60. Players who are trying to break into GM, however, are hurt by pros who level up bad players accounts to GM, taking the of the few spots available. It's not comparable at all.
That's a fundamental issue of GM that removing account leveling will not fix.
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If you can let somebody level you into GM once and stay in GM for the entire season without playing games, then the system itself is incredibly flawed, assuming that GM stands for the current top ladder gamers. If the accused repeatedly pay professionals to level his account into GM week after week, I'd say good for the pros. :-)
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I have a feeling that most of the people that are against this are also bigger fans of casters than players. I think it was mentioned on itmeJP's State of the Game that the casters were the most paid people at MLG. Maybe if the casters were paid a more reasonable amount and the money were instead moved to the prize pool with better distributions pro players wouldn't have to do something like this for income. As it is now being a pro gamer is only viable unless you're extremely famous or getting top3. This is mostly because Caster>Player for most people. Up and coming talent has to do just about anything they can for money if they aren't sponsored. I'm fine with this. I think "I'm clearly superior to everyone ever and I can't believe I can actually lose games" ladder anxiety "hurts" ladder more than leveling "hurts" ladder.
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This is a grey area in the community, but blizzard takes it very seriously. Players should avoid offering these services and I wouldn't be surprised if serious offenders get some action taken against them. It's sad that players have both chosen to do this and that some have paid for it.
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I'm not really sure if this is a bad thing. I mean, I think it's kind of stupid, but there are a lot of stupid things happening everyday and I don't think we should forbid/ban them.
As for the whole "hurting other players" thing... Well, it hurts you as long as your only goal is to get a high ranking. If you're more interested into getting better, I'd say they are a lot of online tournaments where you can show that you're good regardless of your league placement.
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Rofl casters are paid more than players? What a clustefuck SC2 has become. Also look at the intelligence of all these people responding. Great example of what SC2 did with the average poster on TL.
Can't wait for Blizzard to start banning people and then people getting super angry at Blizzard.
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Sometimes I let my 7 year old brother play on my account. It's ladder abuse and cheating, feeding all the pubbies free wins... AM I DOIN' IT RIGHT?
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Who cares, I don't think there are that many idiots willing to play for sc2 powerleveling
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Bid deal, free win for the people who will be playing against that account once the actual owner starts playing on that account. Only problem I can imagine with this is him taking up a GM slot, but if that's a problem than it should be illegal for progamers to have smurfs in GM as well.. GM is just a bad system overall I think.
I don't think Naama deserves to get hunted down over this.
Edit: didn't Beastyqt had an EU smurf called IMMvp? Maybe you want to check for hotkey patterns in comparrison with Beastyqt as well to see if this isn't a huge mistake.
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EEVEE has tried to buy leveling from me into GM and he is also advertising his "GM-lvl" coaching in playhem and other chat channels.
Also there is a pretty simple way to check if its naama or not, is he pulling all scv's in more than 87% of his games? If yes, then you know for sure.
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You don't have to convince anyone th at this is going on, it's pretty common knowledge. So you did just take someones name through the 'dirt' unecessarily. Only, it's not dirt. It's an okay practice. A few people want it, and a few people can actually provide it. It is a service of labor.
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nice thread, it is done, but i don't think it's that important because it is almost equivalent to the pro's smurf.
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On July 16 2012 18:43 Flamingo777 wrote: Sometimes I let my 7 year old brother play on my account. It's ladder abuse and cheating, feeding all the pubbies free wins... AM I DOIN' IT RIGHT? You should be ashamed of yourself. Not only that you break blizzard rules -whats a death sin-, its also unfair advantage. Who plays your little brother gets more wins than the guy who have to beat good people for the win. So you are basic cheating! I hope bilizzard bans your cheating 7 year old brother for loosing games!
Thats what i have to answer isnt it? if not, sorry, im new to this kind of threads Did did not figure out when to RAGE, when to write FIGHTINGGGGG or when to write "support esports" yet...
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Happens in every game, progamers need money and its not like the cheaters will stay in gm. they will lose and provide free rating to everyone they play , and if they don't play at all then their rating will decay.. don't see why this is an issue, yes its against EULA but I can't believe that is your motivation.
the hacking connection just adds to the mess that the op is.
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it is a small price that we have to pay in order to support a larger pro gamer base. I think this small price is worth it.
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Who cares about just another smurf account of a progamer? The only person duped is the one actually paying money for this kind of service.
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Who cares? When theres demand theres supply.
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If im aspiring semi-pro GM level and waiting for the promote and then forgg takes it with his second account after he beats me? So what im aspiring to be as good as him i shouldnt mind playing pros at this point.. Dont see the point
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I think we should have a witch hunt on witch hunters ^^ It would be a blast I promise =)
Leveling accounts is exactly the same as having more than one account. Probably every progamer has more than one account. Stop hating on people trying to squeeze a buck without slaving for the man...
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On July 16 2012 18:30 seansye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:20 Tobberoth wrote:On July 16 2012 18:19 seansye wrote: I dont see any of this being harmless to the buyer, seller, or breaking any rules even though it's against the rules for w.e reason. They will probably just get demoted the next season anyways. Just a huge pathetic waste of money to the buyer that can't spend their money on something better, but hey it's their hard earned money People also do this on D3 by providing service to level characters to 60 on JSP.
No one is affected by you being carried to lvl 60. Players who are trying to break into GM, however, are hurt by pros who level up bad players accounts to GM, taking the of the few spots available. It's not comparable at all. People who have to pay to get their accounts to GM are eventually going to fall off. Its not like being in GM gives you and special privileges. As long as your MMR is high enough you will be able to match with any GM player even if you're in masters. This is a serious non issue. A real issue is hackers that take up a GM spot and can actually keep their spots. Of course they are going to fall off, but the pros are still doing this as a service. Let's imagine 5 strong GM pros are doing this, and they get 2-3 people per week. That's 10-15 spots in GM taken by people who shouldn't be there, just like hackers. How long does it take to fall off because of inactivity? two weeks? And they can still be active, if they play once a week, they can probably stay in GM for quite a while, while the pros keep leveling up new people there. I guess this is somewhat migitated by the fact that GM is sort of "locked" when it's full, but still.
I'm all for good players making money, but this is not a cool way to do it and I would think most pros who do this kind of stuff wouldn't want to parade it around too much.
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Jesus, you people would create drama over anything.
Teamliquid is just as bad as reddit.
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Naama is awesome, hope he got good money. The person who paid him won't be able to sustain GM so who cares, assuming this is all true.
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"The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites."
I feel like this needs some clarification. I've never been to a hacking site so I don't know how it works. Are these ads from pro-gamers posts in a forum or are they paid advertising banners or what? I think it's a huge problem if pro-gamers are providing financial support to the very same people who are ruining this game. On the flip side, even if they are just free ads or forum posts or something, I find the fact that pro-gamers are willing to grace these sites with their presence shows a disturbing affiliation between them that makes me uncomfortable.
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This is almost as bad as the idea of someone paying for Battlenet portraits. Why the hell would anyone waste their money to such a useless end? And if it brings in more money for progamers and keeps them in the scene and interested, why the hell is it a bad thing?
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I don't see how this is hurting anyone. The guy paying for his account to be leveled will get stomped every game he tries to play 1v1 against opponents 3 leagues above his skill level. Also, pro gamers are making money so... it's good. I see it as another service, like coaching for lazy people. Hey, if they just want that star in their profile without being good and are willing to pay for it it's fine.
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On July 16 2012 17:53 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:47 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On July 16 2012 17:42 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 17:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless. The apathy towards it astounds me. People saying ladder doesn't matter anyway, well it certainly won't if we let stuff like this slide. Ladder matter for people that play the game, and if you are "Robbed" of playing against a Weak person posing as GM than I am truly sorry. The fact is Pros should be able to support themselves by their ability to play the game. How many other people "account share" and this isn't being brought up about them. Pros use to advertise for this when the game first came out but since it breaks the EULA that was shut down. I am just shocked that someone would care and go through the effort to expose something so unimportant. Well I have no idea if I've ever played against someone being levelled. If so, I wouldn't care about that singular match. What I do care about is my rank. I want my rank to mean something, even if I am just a lowly Diamond. I play Starcraft to have fun and to improve. My rank is a reflection of my improvement. If the ladder is compromised in this way, my rank is meaningless. Now I lose motivation to play. I like people to earn their way, both in life, and in Starcraft. Paying your way into advantageous positions in any aspect of life is frankly disgusting to me.
Your rank doesn't and have never meant anything, MMR does.
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Yea, you're right about one thing. I am thinking "Who cares?". Seriously who gives a fuck, if some fool wants to pay someone to level their account it's no big deal. Maybe you should spend more time playing and improving if it really bothers you instead of caring about people who have artificial ranks.
Also this isn't even a problem that any of us can solve even if we wanted to, it would be up to Blizzard. And guess what? Blizzard has 38397329478 things to get done before they ever give a fuck about this.
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If you think ladder ranks matter, you're doing it wrong. Stop making drama over irrelevant things.
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On July 16 2012 19:09 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:30 seansye wrote:On July 16 2012 18:20 Tobberoth wrote:On July 16 2012 18:19 seansye wrote: I dont see any of this being harmless to the buyer, seller, or breaking any rules even though it's against the rules for w.e reason. They will probably just get demoted the next season anyways. Just a huge pathetic waste of money to the buyer that can't spend their money on something better, but hey it's their hard earned money People also do this on D3 by providing service to level characters to 60 on JSP.
No one is affected by you being carried to lvl 60. Players who are trying to break into GM, however, are hurt by pros who level up bad players accounts to GM, taking the of the few spots available. It's not comparable at all. People who have to pay to get their accounts to GM are eventually going to fall off. Its not like being in GM gives you and special privileges. As long as your MMR is high enough you will be able to match with any GM player even if you're in masters. This is a serious non issue. A real issue is hackers that take up a GM spot and can actually keep their spots. Of course they are going to fall off, but the pros are still doing this as a service. Let's imagine 5 strong GM pros are doing this, and they get 2-3 people per week. That's 10-15 spots in GM taken by people who shouldn't be there, just like hackers. How long does it take to fall off because of inactivity? two weeks? And they can still be active, if they play once a week, they can probably stay in GM for quite a while, while the pros keep leveling up new people there. I guess this is somewhat migitated by the fact that GM is sort of "locked" when it's full, but still. I'm all for good players making money, but this is not a cool way to do it and I would think most pros who do this kind of stuff wouldn't want to parade it around too much. This is not really different from pros having smurf account in GM. Or koreans sharing accounts. Also, I don't think you can stay in GM by playing one game per week.
GM and leagues are kind of a joke anyway, the only think that matter is MMR. Maybe they should rename leagues to small/medium/big penis, this would be closer to reality.
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On July 16 2012 19:23 Nokshalees wrote: Jesus, you people would create drama over anything.
Teamliquid is just as bad as reddit.
Hardly. Posts like these that contribute nothing certainly drag it down though. Anyways, I don't think anyone can argue it's not a bad thing considering it's against the EULA and some tournaments have ladder ranking play a part into invites and whatnot. Don't forget the drama involving Zack getting invited into WCS..
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On July 16 2012 19:40 Epoch wrote: Yea, you're right about one thing. I am thinking "Who cares?". Seriously who gives a fuck, if some fool wants to pay someone to level their account it's no big deal. Maybe you should spend more time playing and improving if it really bothers you instead of caring about people who have artificial ranks.
What if I said I cared? o_O
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On July 16 2012 19:50 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 19:40 Epoch wrote: Yea, you're right about one thing. I am thinking "Who cares?". Seriously who gives a fuck, if some fool wants to pay someone to level their account it's no big deal. Maybe you should spend more time playing and improving if it really bothers you instead of caring about people who have artificial ranks. What if I said I cared? o_O Then I would ask you why, you would respond with some shit and I would promptly dismantle your arguments.
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Just another way to support the pros. Sure it may not seem fair, but this happens in any game that has a type of ladder.
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While I agree that this isn't optimal, I think we've got plenty other things to fix before we get into this, and think the accusations against particular players need to be removed. Bring this up as a general topic, sure, but don't bring it up as an accusation
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Canada16217 Posts
I don't think this is a bad thing.
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$50 to go from Masters to GM, sounds so incredibly low. Considering how painful of a grind that can be, added with the luck factor of a spot opening. Haha, or even bronze to gm, neat.
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On July 16 2012 16:32 VPCursed wrote: Pro's need $ and in e-sports their isn't enough going around unless you're a top contender in tourneys.. hell.. i've seen forgg stream him self account leveling and chat with the person he was doing it for... Don't think its that bad of a thing tbh
I would like to correct some idiocy that is spreading in this thread. ForGG has never leveled any account for anybody on stream. What this person is referring to is me giving away my bnet account so that ForGG could play on EU servers (I have since bought a new account for my personal use). Any decent person would have asked on the stream chat and known about it.
I would appreciate if such baseless attacks smearing respectable progamers reputation would stop being thrown so easily.
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It IS a bad thing, but to fix it or not is entirely up to Blizzard.
GM has always been a big joke anyway.
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On July 16 2012 20:04 Irave wrote:$50 to go from Masters to GM, sounds so incredibly low. Considering how painful of a grind that can be, added with the luck factor of a spot opening. Haha, or even bronze to gm, neat.
Haha, paying gold --> diamond is more expensive than paying him to go gold --> plat --> diamond ...
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so let met get this straight, GM now consists of:
1. Leveled accounts 2. hackers 3. people who are very skilled at some kind of cheese 4. and what, like 5 actual good players?
Maybe it's time to accept that such a machine run ranking system (that can easily be cheated) isn't the right way to scout for talent or to proove your good.
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It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc.
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Well its not right, but its no big deal.
As a casual gamer it doesn't bother me.
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On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc.
No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it.
Comparison isn't relevant.
Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it.
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gm system is already broken, and thats before you consider there are tons of legitimate smurfs and hackers up there as well
people comparing this to maphacking should do everyone a favor and never post anything on the internet again
On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
No. it makes absolutely 0 difference. The difference between Master and GM means absolutely nothing to anyone that has anything to do with professional Starcraft 2 and is nothing more than a shiny icon to boost ones e-peen.
Anyone who is actually upset with this needs to take a long hard look at their lives.
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On July 16 2012 20:23 B.I.G. wrote: so let met get this straight, GM now consists of:
1. Leveled accounts 2. hackers 3. people who are very skilled at some kind of cheese 4. and what, like 5 actual good players?
Maybe it's time to accept that such a machine run ranking system (that can easily be cheated) isn't the right way to scout for talent or to proove your good.
you are saying this based off on...? half of the NA GM ladder are the pros. look at the list...
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On July 16 2012 20:40 xodarap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. It may be an odd point to bring up, but Derrick Rose, arguably the best point guard on the planet paid for someone else to take his SATs, and even now with him being in the NBA, nobody cares that he "cheated" to get there. This was a big story when he was still a recruit, but now people have forgotten.
Because Derrick Rose is fucking awesome!
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On July 16 2012 19:52 Epoch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 19:50 .Sic. wrote:On July 16 2012 19:40 Epoch wrote: Yea, you're right about one thing. I am thinking "Who cares?". Seriously who gives a fuck, if some fool wants to pay someone to level their account it's no big deal. Maybe you should spend more time playing and improving if it really bothers you instead of caring about people who have artificial ranks. What if I said I cared? o_O Then I would ask you why, you would respond with some shit and I would promptly dismantle your arguments. i want to get into gm but its full of hackers and cheaters(who level the account), argue against this one
and no, im not gonna become as good as nerchio to get into gm, thats why gm has 200 spots, you don't need to be as good as a top european pro to be gm, nonetheless if you are not you might as well say goodbye to it because only one of those could legitimately get into gm by beating hackers and account levelers.Sad but true, gm is retarded!
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On July 16 2012 17:03 KawaiiRice wrote: the problems are that ppl are clogging up gm slots and also ppl that got their accs leveled can use gm as credential to sell coaching to those that don't know any better. its a big issue if you think about that ...
yeah like Kawaii says. And if you think about it! It's like buying or downloading a program that plays for you to get top200 which throws down someone else from top 200. And everyone complaining about the "bots running itself to get better stuff on D3" is a big time cheat. If you look at it this is the same thing except someone is paying someone else to get u to top 200 without the person doing anything. ..
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The players need more money (or money at all). Everybody is screaming esports, but the most important part, the players (except a few), just don't earn enough to make a real and solid living.
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On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc.
What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.
There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect?
"But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification."
If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots.
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On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it.
I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful?
Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others.
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On July 16 2012 20:45 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 19:52 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 19:50 .Sic. wrote:On July 16 2012 19:40 Epoch wrote: Yea, you're right about one thing. I am thinking "Who cares?". Seriously who gives a fuck, if some fool wants to pay someone to level their account it's no big deal. Maybe you should spend more time playing and improving if it really bothers you instead of caring about people who have artificial ranks. What if I said I cared? o_O Then I would ask you why, you would respond with some shit and I would promptly dismantle your arguments. i want to get into gm but its full of hackers and cheaters(who level the account), argue against this one and no, im not gonna become as good as nerchio to get into gm, thats why gm has 200 spots, you don't need to be as good as a top european pro to be gm, nonetheless if you are not you might as well say goodbye to it because only one of those could legitimately get into gm by beating hackers and account levelers.Sad but true, gm is retarded!
Uh well sir, if you want to get to GM and you can't make it in because of..... what? Not good enough, don't wanna put the work in? Like what do you expect? A free ticket to GM for some reason? I really don't get it. It doesn't matter if there are some or many hackers. If you don't possess the ability to get to GM then you don't deserve to be in GM it's ridiculously simple. There are cheaters in every sport and legit players still rise to the top. If you aren't legit what do you want, like something for free? lol get real
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On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots.
Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree?
I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK.
Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that?
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The players earn money, and the consumers don't really gain anything, except bragging rights I guess?
This shouldn't be on the list of top problems with SC2 or eSports.
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I kinda think its a problem since it makes it harder for up and coming player to get their name out. After all being in GM league means something, and i think it makes things a lot easier when looking for teams ^^
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On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that?
Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous.
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I don't see a problem there, tbh. For some people GM is just a shining icon and most people just dont care about it, since they want a good practice. So if someone wants a shining icon, even tho they're a platinum level or whatsoever, I don't care. Everyone is trying to make money from the possibilities they got. Most of people are saying GM is retarted, because they simply just cannot get in, that's a fact.
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On July 16 2012 16:41 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:40 Tachion wrote: I'm sorry for skimping around the main issue, but what compels people to pay for this in the first place? So they can brag to ignorant friends about how good they are? It seems like it's the only advantage since those GM accounts won't stay at GM level for very long right? No, the problem is that you can stay in GM as long as your bonus pool doesn't exceed a certain threshold. So if this person stays active, he will have a bad record, but he will not get kicked out of GM, even if he's record is 10 wins and 200 losses.
Also, if he had his account leveled near the end of the season, he can camp on his rating until the season ends and stay in GM.
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On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack.
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On July 16 2012 21:06 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack.
lol? maybe because your league in sc2 doesn't matter and things pertaining to real life and careers and whatnot are more important?
alot of you guys seemed to have missed the memo, life isn't fair, it sucks and then you die. get over it. if you want to make a difference in the world, even the score a little, you certainly can. but this is where you chose to focus your energy? with all your arguments and values you think that this is a worthy cause? this issue doesn't matter at all.
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On July 16 2012 21:10 Epoch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:06 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack. lol? maybe because your league in sc2 doesn't matter and things pertaining to real life and careers and whatnot are more important? By that logic, if the ladder doesn't matter, why even have a ladder at all? This sort of abdication and apathy is self-perpetuating, ladder means nothing because it's rampant with cheaters and hackers, and we should do nothing about cheaters and hackers because ladder means nothing. So why bother banning maphackers?
This is a competitive game, epeen does matter.
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On July 16 2012 21:01 Tailss wrote: I kinda think its a problem since it makes it harder for up and coming player to get their name out. After all being in GM league means something, and i think it makes things a lot easier when looking for teams ^^ I never thought it meant anything. There are many pros that are not in GM. And vice versa there are many players in GM that have and will never win anything and are no pros.
The whole GM thing with players staying in for a whole season no matter how bad they play and great players being kicked out because they didnt play for some time and GM being full of smurf account always meant that it was just nonsense. Just like the whole ladder system with the ladder points is nonsense. Only thing that counts is MMR / ELO, which for some strange reason Blizzard decided to not show.
Btw, why is it ok for GM players to have smurfs in GM but not smurfs they have been paid for? To me it makes no difference.
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do you people just like pick a side, and stick to it? this isn't debate team. you can alter your views with the light of new information. there's no reason to like constantly try to reinforce your points that don't even make sense in the first place.
you seriously think someone getting a job over someone more qualified is equally important as this? i guess all matters in the world are just equal then and everything can be compared with everything else? because its all equal? lol get real.
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On July 16 2012 21:06 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack. So what is the reward for this player for being in the "highest skilled league" in the game . He get's nothing for it. Also do you want to ban smurfs too. Smurfs also take spots away from other players. Overall i don't think the GM league is very well structured, but that's blizzards fault.
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I can honestly say that I am proud of most of the responses in this thread for once. It demonstrates a maturity in thought process that the majority are unconcerned that a few idiots are being parted from their money. The simple fact is that someone leveled won't stay in there long for obvious reasons. It is a self correcting problem.
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On topic: I think this is stupid, people put way too much meaning into GM. It is obvious that there are a lot of accounts there that should not be there. However, I agree with those saying that this is bad since it takes up spots from those deserving. I would hope that accounts that are levelled gets removed, but I think that Blizz might not really be able to do very much. This is even more difficult to manage than people cheating through hacking etc.
Off topic: Yeah, go ahead - I approve..
On July 16 2012 18:01 NEEDZMOAR wrote: Nuked
User was warned for this post
Not sure if I'm allowed to nuke the warning as well, anyone?
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I am probably supposed to be against it - not that i have a technical reason no to. But correcting it would probably do more harm than good. This issue is, in the long run, completly self-correcting.
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On July 16 2012 17:23 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:05 tsango wrote: For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it People seriously need to educate themselves about the ladder if they want to have a talk in this. Anyone is able to maintain GM for a season. Once you're in, you can lose an infinite amount of games as long as you keep the bonus pool low. You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies. Indeed someone need to educate themselves about the ladder. If you read this very good guide about the ladder you realize that a GM who win against bronzies probably will not get a single point and thus not spend any bonus pool and will within 2 weeks be kicked out of GM. So no unless they pay the pro to keep them in gm they will be gone soon enough.
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Seems like you just wanted to make a thread then anything else seriously. I doubt most people actually care, I dont see this as a bad thing, If a persons account gets levelled, and hes not good enough for that level then he will end up demoted back anyways.
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On July 16 2012 21:19 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:06 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack. So what is the reward for this player for being in the "highest skilled league" in the game . He get's nothing for it. Also do you want to ban smurfs too. Smurfs also take spots away from other players. Overall i don't think the GM league is very well structured, but that's blizzards fault.
On July 16 2012 21:28 Gajarell wrote: I am probably supposed to be against it - not that i have a technical reason no to. But correcting it would probably do more harm than good. This issue is, in the long run, completly self-correcting.
No, the problem is not self-correcting. The problem is that you can stay in GM as long as your bonus pool doesn't exceed a certain threshold. So if this person stays active, he will have a bad record, but he will not get kicked out of GM, even if he's record is 10 wins and 200 losses.
Also, if he had his account leveled near the end of the season, he can camp on his rating until the season ends and stay in GM.
His reward is a permanent record in his profile that he was in GM league. And the status and epeen that comes with being in GM. Ideally, Blizzard should make smurfing also against the rules. But, as I've explained above, part of this is Blizzard's fault in making a flawed GM system. But even if Blizzard fixed this and kicks people out of GM if their MMR drops, it would still not solve the problem of having someone level your profile to GM near the end of the season. And nothing can be done about this, other than banning these cheaters. So it doesn't matter that Blizzard is partly to blame, this cheater should still be banned.
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On July 16 2012 21:25 Dekoth wrote: I can honestly say that I am proud of most of the responses in this thread for once. It demonstrates a maturity in thought process that the majority are unconcerned that a few idiots are being parted from their money. The simple fact is that someone leveled won't stay in there long for obvious reasons. It is a self correcting problem.
It's also a self-perpetuating problem if left to itself. If it's 'okay' to do this, why wouldn't every pro player with some free time do it for some extra cash? Why wouldn't every halfwit with some money pay them to? After all, by your understanding it's perfectly okay.
Can you imagine how many accounts could potentially end up being 'levelled' at the same time? This is the kind of nonsense that if allowed and accepted would grow and begin to seriously damage the integrity of high level laddering.
Look further ahead than your nose please, while witch hunting is by nature an entirely destructive practice and should not be done, there's surely no denying that this is against the rules, against the spirit of the ladder and doesn't bring anything positive?
If pro players are honestly so strapped for cash that they have to resort to this, and it's not a case of simple greed, then there's a problem elsewhere and this is not the solution.
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On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others.
It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players.
lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it.
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On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right?
pretty much...
if people are stupid enough to give other people money for shit like that i just feel happy for the pro who can easily earn some money that way...
stuff like that has been around since wc3 and probably even before and apart from some people being pretty stupid i don't see what's the big deal
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On July 16 2012 21:18 Epoch wrote: do you people just like pick a side, and stick to it? this isn't debate team. you can alter your views with the light of new information. there's no reason to like constantly try to reinforce your points that don't even make sense in the first place.
you seriously think someone getting a job over someone more qualified is equally important as this? i guess all matters in the world are just equal then and everything can be compared with everything else? because its all equal? lol get real. Of course not. In law, different deeds deserve different punishment. Funnily enough though, trivial circumstances do not turn wrongs into rights.
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I don't think that it will affect gm to much cause in theory the reason they paid for there account to be placed that high is because they can't do so they should fall out. I would rather have people pay someone to level there account than someone hacking there way up the ladder.
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On July 16 2012 17:23 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:05 tsango wrote: For the arguement about GM spaces, its a moot point because accounts have to be active to retain the place - unless you kept your local pro-gamer on a retainer to boost you regularly theres noway your going to maintain it. And even if you did, how would this be different to progamers whom have multiple accounts all in GM? Believe it or not such people do exist, and we dont have a go at them about it People seriously need to educate themselves about the ladder if they want to have a talk in this. Anyone is able to maintain GM for a season. Once you're in, you can lose an infinite amount of games as long as you keep the bonus pool low. You are allowed to lose hundreds of games to then beat a couple of bronzies. Maybe you should educate yourself. If you are in grandmasters and you are playing against bronzes you get 0 points whenever you win. Good luck on trying to keep your bonus pool down.
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On July 16 2012 21:38 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:19 Uracil wrote:On July 16 2012 21:06 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack. So what is the reward for this player for being in the "highest skilled league" in the game . He get's nothing for it. Also do you want to ban smurfs too. Smurfs also take spots away from other players. Overall i don't think the GM league is very well structured, but that's blizzards fault. Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:28 Gajarell wrote: I am probably supposed to be against it - not that i have a technical reason no to. But correcting it would probably do more harm than good. This issue is, in the long run, completly self-correcting. Ideally, Blizzard should make smurfing also against the rules. But, as I've explained above, part of this is Blizzard's fault in making a flawed GM system. How should blizzard ban smurfs. Do you want that a player can only use one account. Because that would be the consequence. Also pros need the possibilty of hiding their training or to experiment with new stragegies.
I think GM should just update daily and contain the the 200 highest players in terms of ELO.
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On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it.
Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation?
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On July 16 2012 21:54 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it. Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation? Ladder means nothing so your comparison doesn't make sense.
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Honestly the only problem I see in this is GM ladder being an awful system.
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On July 16 2012 21:45 HeeroFX wrote: I don't think that it will affect gm to much cause in theory the reason they paid for there account to be placed that high is because they can't do so they should fall out. I would rather have people pay someone to level there account than someone hacking there way up the ladder.
Except people don't fall out of GM until the end of the season unless they go inactive and let their bonus points go rampant. As long as they play like 10 games a week they wont be demoted until the next season. Then as the season is about to end they buy more levling to maintain their account in GM for next season.
As if GM didn't have enough problems being viewed as a legitimate top of the ladder even before all this. I just think they really need to remove the whole "you stay in GM for a full season" kind of deal so that it can truly become the top players or atleast the best active players on that server.
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On July 16 2012 21:54 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it. Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation?
What reality allows you to do such impersonations in a mainstream sport in a way the internet can? The two can't be compared.
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On July 16 2012 21:53 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:38 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 16 2012 21:19 Uracil wrote:On July 16 2012 21:06 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 16 2012 21:03 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 16 2012 20:55 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:50 Epoch wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaningful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. What? Most people who are defending this, and by most I mean 99.9 percent wouldn't even bother having an account levelled. We simply don't care about it. It's a non issue. It's the dumbest thing in the world you could be worrying about. Similarly, we generally wouldn't be cheating on our exams, as we aren't the cheaters in the first place. And that should be handled on a case by case basis anyway. Generally it's not a good idea to cheat on your exams but in some cases it can be fine and dandy like sour candy. If it works for you and doesn't hurt anyone, example the basketball player mentioned above.There is no integrity of the ladder and there never was, it's a pretty decent system that like all pretty decent systems is exploitable to some degree. What more do you want or could you possibly expect? "But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification." If you are good enough, smart enough, savvy enough, cunning enough, then your lack of ability to reach GM when you are trying to become a semi pro isn't going to be any sort of barrier. GM doesn't mean anything. Results do. Ability does. Showcasing your skills, and marketing yourself, developing your value as a gamer to watch is what will get you any level of pro status. And if you can't make it then you aren't cut out for it and it has nothing at all, I repeat, nothing at all to do with the fact that there are cheaters in the game and they are taking up some GM slots. Would you be ok if someone got ahead of you on a promotion because they faked their degree? I disagree with the bolded part. Just because people have gotten over it doesn't mean it was OK. Look, I'm not trying to be morally elitist for the sake of being one. The chess system is pretty good, could we have something like that? Please don't compare the business world with a video game. This comparason is ridiculous. No, it's not a ridiculous comparison. If it is, explain why. This player cheated his way into the highest skilled league in the game, stealing one of the only 200 spots that an otherwise legitimate player could have taken. This is worse than maphack. So what is the reward for this player for being in the "highest skilled league" in the game . He get's nothing for it. Also do you want to ban smurfs too. Smurfs also take spots away from other players. Overall i don't think the GM league is very well structured, but that's blizzards fault. On July 16 2012 21:28 Gajarell wrote: I am probably supposed to be against it - not that i have a technical reason no to. But correcting it would probably do more harm than good. This issue is, in the long run, completly self-correcting. Ideally, Blizzard should make smurfing also against the rules. But, as I've explained above, part of this is Blizzard's fault in making a flawed GM system. How should blizzard ban smurfs. Do you want that a player can only use one account. Because that would be the consequence. Also pros need the possibilty of hiding their training or to experiment with new stragegies. I think GM should just update daily and contain the the 200 highest players in terms of ELO. I don't think it's possible to ban smurfing. That's why I said "ideally". If somehow they magically could determine who is smurfing, then they should close the smurf accounts.
Updating GM daily based on MMR is an infinitely better system than what they're currently doing. But it doesn't solve anything in this case. What if he got his account leveled to GM near the end of the season? Even if GM updates daily, the cheater can still not play any games, so that his MMR doesn't change. You can suggest adding decay, but decay takes time to have an effect. So again, banning these cheaters is necessary.
You also dodged 95% of my post.
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On July 16 2012 21:55 aTnClouD wrote: Honestly the only problem I see in this is GM ladder being an awful system. Again, GM ladder is awful. But there is no way to fix the system in such a way that paying for your account to be leveled to GM becomes a nonissue that is self-correcting.
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I actually see a big difference between these leveled accounts and actual cheating. This to me only appears to be against the EULA but does not actually do any damage.
You claim it hurts exposure of up and coming semi-pro's. In reality though while it hurts them it is a spot that would otherwise have been taken by a smurf of said pro gamer, the only difference is that this smurf has another owner who uses it in team games.
The coincidence that people that pay to hvae their accounts leveled hack is not an argument on whether the leveling should be legal. It is the same as claiming that the sale of firearms should be illegal because you claim that the people buying them have a tendency to drive over the speed limit. (For the record: I am against selling firearms but that is because of the useage of the gun itself).
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On July 16 2012 21:55 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:54 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it. Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation? Ladder means nothing so your comparison doesn't make sense. If you start with that presumption then you will never feel the need to change anything. That's fine. Some people feel differently though.
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This is like selling gold or account leveling in WoW. You can ignore it, since it's minor, but it also meant you had a lot of bots running around and it negatively influenced the economy by driving up prices and everyone had to spend more money on the auction house. And in general, people worked for their arena rank, money, achievements. What is the point to a game if all your achievements have a chance to be the result of hacking or other shady actions? I think it's pathetic in general, no pro player should enable these idiots that want to buy their achievements.
Also, there are some other similar things in SC2 like account sharing to be able to play cross server, smurfing to get multiple GM accounts, letting your little brother play on your account or whatever, but those are all flaws of the ladder system and I don't mind people circumventing them. Blizzard is adding a practice ladder with no rank and cross server play in HotS.
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On July 16 2012 22:02 Wroshe wrote: I actually see a big difference between these leveled accounts and actual cheating. This to me only appears to be against the EULA but does not actually do any damage.
You claim it hurts exposure of up and coming semi-pro's. In reality though while it hurts them it is a spot that would otherwise have been taken by a smurf of said pro gamer, the only difference is that this smurf has another owner who uses it in team games.
The coincidence that people that pay to hvae their accounts leveled hack is not an argument on whether the leveling should be legal. It is the same as claiming that the sale of firearms should be illegal because you claim that the people buying them have a tendency to drive over the speed limit. (For the record: I am against selling firearms but that is because of the useage of the gun itself). How does it not do any damage? Playing against someone who's true MMR is 1500 above yours is just as bad as playing against a maphacker. Your chance of winning are probably less. It delegitimatizes the ladder. It's not fair to those who play without having someone level up their account. It steals a spot on the GM ladder. It's against the rules, etc.
It even delegitmatizes the game. Who wants to play a game where cheaters and hackers run rampant, while the developers are oblivious or apathetic to doing anything about it? Would it make you more likely to recommend such a game to your friend?
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On July 16 2012 21:58 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:54 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it. Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation? What reality allows you to do such impersonations in a mainstream sport in a way the internet can? The two can't be compared. So you're saying that its ok to cheat the system because its difficult to get caught? i know they can't be directly compared, doesn't mean we should not try to uphold the integrity of the game.
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On July 16 2012 22:07 Grumbels wrote: This is like selling gold or account leveling in WoW. You can ignore it, since it's minor, but it also meant you had a lot of bots running around and it negatively influenced the economy by driving up prices and everyone had to spend more money on the auction house. And in general, people worked for their arena rank, money, achievements. What is the point to a game if all your achievements have a chance to be the result of hacking or other shady actions? I think it's pathetic in general, no pro player should enable these idiots that want to buy their achievements.
There are also players in WoW that are just really, really good at making millions of gold on the AH and players who are really, really fast at power leveling characters. Not everyone is a bot/hacker, and you don't have to accept bots/hackers to accept selling gold in WoW.
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I don't see a problem with this.
They're not stealing spots from anyone. They have to earn it themselves by doing the boosting.
Someone playing legit also has to earn the spot. Both sides have equal opportunities.
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On July 16 2012 22:13 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 22:07 Grumbels wrote: This is like selling gold or account leveling in WoW. You can ignore it, since it's minor, but it also meant you had a lot of bots running around and it negatively influenced the economy by driving up prices and everyone had to spend more money on the auction house. And in general, people worked for their arena rank, money, achievements. What is the point to a game if all your achievements have a chance to be the result of hacking or other shady actions? I think it's pathetic in general, no pro player should enable these idiots that want to buy their achievements. There are also players in WoW that are just really, really good at making millions of gold on the AH and players who are really, really fast at power leveling characters. Not everyone is a bot/hacker, and you don't have to accept bots/hackers to accept selling gold in WoW. Making gold off of the AH isn't cheating, just as how being good at SC2 isn't cheating.
Is it OK to let people cheat simply because they're bad?
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On July 16 2012 22:05 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:55 Technique wrote:On July 16 2012 21:54 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it. Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation? Ladder means nothing so your comparison doesn't make sense. If you start with that presumption then you will never feel the need to change anything. That's fine. Some people feel differently though.
That's right. Whether or not it means something is irrelevant. The whole point of this discussion is that most of us want it to mean something in the future.
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On July 16 2012 22:11 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 21:58 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 21:54 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 21:43 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:51 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 20:40 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 20:28 Daniel C wrote: It seems to me that one of the main reasons that people who are defending this practice offer is that "it's just ladder". Sadly, the integrity of ladder continues to suffer precisely because of this attitude. If ladder truly meant nothing, then yeah, who cares. But for aspiring semi-pros, GM may make the difference between getting noticed or not, or tournament qualification.
In an ideal world, smurf accounts would not be allowed either. Then ladder ranking could actually be used for something meaniz,ngful. Let's use a chess analogy: let's say that an amateur player paid a chess grandmaster to obtain a grandmaster title for him. In the process, several aspiring players in the same tournament were unable to achieve their final GM "norm" (points counting towards GM qualification) because they were playing against an elite player. Surely, bot the actual grandmaster and the paying "customer" would be severely punished for such a fraud.
Would you guys be OK with paying someone to take your exams for you? Just because we support pro players and their livelihoods does not mean we have to support their actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right, and the ends do not justify the means, etc. etc. No, I defend it because I don't think anyone should really care what people want to spend their money on. Also, when the number one argument is how leveling accounts degrades the integrity of GM what the fuck else do you expect to hear in response? GM IS very abusable, REGARDLESS of leveling accounts. It's an issue with GM, and the value everyone is placing in it. Comparison isn't relevant. Also, in general everyone needs to stop mentioning pro players, they aren't all pro players offering it. I don't think you understand my point. My point is that I feel that ladder should and could mean something. Just like in the chess world, your FIDE point ranking is rather important. The difficulty is making sure that the person playing behind the account is the person they claim to be. In theory, would it be possible to make GM meaningful, just like a chess grandmaster rating is meaningful? Re: the bolded part. It does matter if it's against the rules and hurts others. It'd obviously be cool for it to be meaningful, but it currently isn't, and it has nothing to do with leveling accounts. If GM was functioning properly account levelers couldn't affect the top ranking players. lol @ your re. It's against the rules because you have to share your account, and Blizzard does not want you playing SC2 unless you bought the game. It has never hurt anyone other than those who go out of their way on TL to be hurt by it. Doesn't affect me. I'm referring to aspiring semipros. and before you go "gm smurfs are plenty" or 'if he's good it doesn't matter', please answer this: what other mainstream sport would tolerate this kind of impersonation? What reality allows you to do such impersonations in a mainstream sport in a way the internet can? The two can't be compared. So you're saying that its ok to cheat the system because its difficult to get caught? i know they can't be directly compared, doesn't mean we should not try to uphold the integrity of the game.
I don't consider it cheating the system, and I don't consider it "getting caught" when account sharing isn't really that bad despite being against a EULA Blizzard will not and cannot realistically enforce. You're trying to place value on the integrity of a ladder created by a company trying to make a profit, who will never permanently ban a hacker. Just his account so they can make a tiny bit of money off the repurchase who will then come back and muck GM again.
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On July 16 2012 22:15 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 22:13 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 22:07 Grumbels wrote: This is like selling gold or account leveling in WoW. You can ignore it, since it's minor, but it also meant you had a lot of bots running around and it negatively influenced the economy by driving up prices and everyone had to spend more money on the auction house. And in general, people worked for their arena rank, money, achievements. What is the point to a game if all your achievements have a chance to be the result of hacking or other shady actions? I think it's pathetic in general, no pro player should enable these idiots that want to buy their achievements. There are also players in WoW that are just really, really good at making millions of gold on the AH and players who are really, really fast at power leveling characters. Not everyone is a bot/hacker, and you don't have to accept bots/hackers to accept selling gold in WoW. Making gold off of the AH isn't cheating, just as how being good at SC2 isn't cheating. Is it OK to let people cheat simply because they're bad?
Lol, you took that way out of context and completely misunderstood.
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I don't really care about that, it feels like they just waste their money that's all. They don't actually gain anything and if you do want to play professionally the ladder rank means nothing, tournament and clan war results do.
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On one hand I can see why this is a pretty big deal, but at the same time, a lot of progamers to make miserably little money because they're unable to win big events etc. I don't have any strong feelings either way really, I guess as long as it doesn't become commonplace--it definitely could get a bit ridiculous if tons of people were just leveled.
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On July 16 2012 21:55 aTnClouD wrote: Honestly the only problem I see in this is GM ladder being an awful system. Are you saying the system is to blame? With any kind of ranking system this could still happen.
I definitely don't think it's the end of the world but it's messing with ladder rankings and is a dishonest practice. People may be dumb for paying for such a service but the fact that it's being fulfilled by pro players doesn't sit right with me. It's cheating. You can say that ladder doesn't mean anything, people shouldn't pay for it to begin with, players need more money, or anything else. But the fact is still that it's an unethical practice that is against the rules which negatively impacts innocent players.
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its cheating ? are you seriously going to put this next to map hacking on tournament? this is just nothing and if you mind ur spot in gm taken by some random account .. well too bad nobody cares about if ur gm or not. all that matters is skill you have not rating ur at. this is just pointless thread and discussion. aprat from that gm is retarded system indeed.
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Not a big deal. GM doesn't really bring recognition, tournament results do.
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To prove that this is indeed happening, I'm going to provide my evidence for an NA account that I believe is leveled. Rank 169 (at the time of posting) IMMvp is being leveled by EU Terran (Wiki2)Naama. I also believe the owner of the account hacks in his team games and plays with other hackers, which leads to another problem with these leveling services. But I'll get back to that later.
Here's why I think this account is leveled by Naama:
- The owner of the account denies that it's leveled, and claims he simply uses different hotkeys for 1v1 and team games (see here; the "skrillex123" account is his as he admits earlier in that thread)
- Given that the 1v1 player is irrefutably Naama Is it????
You make a blanket statement, and throw Naama's name out without any ACTUAL evidence or proof, other than some Russel Crowe " A beautiful mind" type shit. Matters like this, should be treated like a legal situation. And if so, you have 0 proof other than some shit you THINK adds up. I'm sure any pro terran playing standard would have similar if not identical hotkey graphs. So that really proves almost nothing.
You go from " I think" to, "it's irrefutable". Without asking Naama himself, or posting a comment from himself, or any additional, or even SLIGHTLY confirmed info. This thread needs to be taken down, as it's nothing more than a glorified witch hunt. Except their is 0 actual proof, not even a confirm or denial from Naama. And the graph isn't nearly enough proof.
SO much for innocent until proven guilty.
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The system is to blame. Its a retarded system that doesnt prove much. If i want to pay someone to level up MY account then thats up to me. But i should be punished by it by gettjng my ass kciked in higher leagues. The gm system prevents this. This wouldnt even be an issue if it wasnt for it. Btw im a high masters trying to crack gm. But im not whinning. If gm is actually filled with only pros, better for me when i get there :D
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Yeah, and what the hell do you have against Naama. How could you possibly just tell it's Naama?
All I read,"Someones blocking my GM spot. It's Naama. I have no proof, but I'm pretty sure"
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On July 16 2012 16:47 DYEAlabaster wrote: Idiots supplementing pro gamer's meagre income? Sounds like a good thing to me...
Sidenote- why could players lose their jobs? Someone mentioned forGG streamed it... while he was teamless?
1 - Its against EULA 2 - Progamers knew what kind of money they would be making when they got into it. Dont like being poor? Go get a real job or play poker. Theres no sympathy from me.
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There's not much difference between GM and High Master. If you are GM, it doesn't mean you will play against GM exclusively. The only thing it does is to look pretty (arguably) for one season. If that dude starts to play, he will lose every single time. But with 200 GM, I doubt someone can name 200 people in GM every single seasons. Players pop up and drop out all the time, and no one is gonna remember them. Nowaday, having name in GM for 1,2 seasons means nothing. You have to constantly stay in GM in order to be recognize.
Overall, this is something to be frown upon, but not worth to spend resource to pursue it. Technically it's illegal and if you want to squeeze it, you can succeed, but it's not worth it. It's like when you buy 50 lbs of shrimp in a box, it means 47,48 lbs of shrimp and 2,3 lbs of ice/package; or peeing in public,,v,v,.. Trivial crime is trivial.
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While I don't support those that purchase leveling services, they are ultimately hurting themselves. If they cannot progress pass gold level of play, They will fail competing at the masters level. Unless they just want to wag their "hey I'm a masters level 1v1" e-peen in custom games, I see marginal benefit for the one buying the leveling services.
Also, just because it's illegal doesn't mean people aren't going to do it. If there's money to be gained, then someone WILL try to capitalize on it. It's probably a fun way to make money too.
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I don't have a really big problem with it. Especially since there is a way bigger problem which needs to be fixed first (and as said i don't think it really is a problem), the cheaters.
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On July 16 2012 22:46 GinDo wrote: Not a big deal. GM doesn't really bring recognition, tournament results do.
Of course highmaster/gm brings recognition you get to play all the good players up in the ladder. Which streams occasionally which also makes people see ur name all the time. And by getting up there improves ur skill quite a lot and of course it helps quite a lot getting into GM. There are so many in the high masters ladder that struggles to get into GM.
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What's the problem with it? It's done in nearly every game. People love their e-penis. But I really don't see the problem with it.
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Pointless witch hunt. It's barely hurting anyone, next season theyll be out of GM if that is what you are worried about. All your arguments are poor, the accusation based on nothing is pathetic and besides, many people share accounts especially cross continent..
Take this thread down please
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I don't buy pros need money as an excuse to do this for starters. That'd be like saying a guy who shoots someone needed the money so it's ok.
Past that however, it's not like we as a community can police this sort of thing. So blizzard either bans the power leveled accounts or doesn't and that's end of story. On the bright side it's not easy to get into GM so it's not like any pro could do it with 5+ accounts per season easily.
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Who would want to pay for something like that in THIS game though? There really isn't anywhere to show off, and if you play above your level you'll get stomped. Maybe they want to post on SC2 forums without fear of getting called bronze noob?
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How much money can you possibly make off this? I can't imagine the market of demand for this is very large... and I have a hard time believing people would pay enough money to make this worth the time it takes. I could be wrong I guess. Although I am very curious how much money this generally costs. Wouldn't be a bad gig for those with the skill to do it.
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On July 16 2012 16:36 alderamin wrote: It is ladder abuse and thus cheating. In the past the community has tried to ban people who ladder abuse and cheat from all tournaments for a period of time.. And Kespa even banned people for life. Of course Blizzard will ban those accounts too.
Who has KeSPA banned for this? Nobody comes to mind, and I've been watching SC for a while.
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On July 16 2012 22:55 Equity213 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:47 DYEAlabaster wrote: Idiots supplementing pro gamer's meagre income? Sounds like a good thing to me...
Sidenote- why could players lose their jobs? Someone mentioned forGG streamed it... while he was teamless? 1 - Its against EULA 2 - Progamers knew what kind of money they would be making when they got into it. Dont like being poor? Go get a real job or play poker. Theres no sympathy from me.
someones upset for being a low ranking player ^^
On July 16 2012 23:20 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:36 alderamin wrote: It is ladder abuse and thus cheating. In the past the community has tried to ban people who ladder abuse and cheat from all tournaments for a period of time.. And Kespa even banned people for life. Of course Blizzard will ban those accounts too. Who has KeSPA banned for this? Nobody comes to mind, and I've been watching SC for a while.
They haven't banned anyone for leveling ever... Kespa atleast,
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I blame the GM system for allowing these players to stay in GM. If they made GM current top 200 MMR players, then we wouldn't see these people stay up there for long at all. With the current system, the guy could literally be bronze league, and as long as he loses enough he'll start playing people that is his skill level to use up his bonus pool, staying in GM for one whole season.
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If there are people who pay for this kind of "service"... let them throw their money away for fake ladder kudos.
This should be the least of our concerns as long as there are hackers around - that REALLY hurts esports and the competitive spirit surrounding it.
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On July 16 2012 22:55 Equity213 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:47 DYEAlabaster wrote: Idiots supplementing pro gamer's meagre income? Sounds like a good thing to me...
Sidenote- why could players lose their jobs? Someone mentioned forGG streamed it... while he was teamless? 1 - Its against EULA 2 - Progamers knew what kind of money they would be making when they got into it. Dont like being poor? Go get a real job or play poker. Theres no sympathy from me.
get off your high horse what gives you the right to tell them what to do/decide the rules for them? i hope they continue just because of people like you.
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I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service.
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I didn't know we really cared that much about GM anyways. Ever since the fiasco where multiple progamers didn't get into GM, GM sort of stopped mattering, at least in my eyes. As for the topic of the thread, I don't really care about account leveling provided the progamer doing it really needs the money, which is probably not a rare thing. Supporting the hacking scene isn't really an issue, because it should already be able to support itself based on the consumer base for its hacks. In addition, hacks are so easy to get that the entire consumer base should be able to get their hands on a hack, so additional funds probably shouldn't matter in that area, either.
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On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave.
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How can anyone care about this?
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On July 16 2012 23:20 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:36 alderamin wrote: It is ladder abuse and thus cheating. In the past the community has tried to ban people who ladder abuse and cheat from all tournaments for a period of time.. And Kespa even banned people for life. Of course Blizzard will ban those accounts too. Who has KeSPA banned for this? Nobody comes to mind, and I've been watching SC for a while.
Calling deliberate misreading on this.
KeSPA banned people for life for cheating. TL and foreigner community banned people for cheating through ladder abuse. Just abusing 1 game = 1 year ban.
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On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument.
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On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does.
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On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Alright, so it doesn't "prevent it", my bad. It doesn't lower your chances to be recognized though. Sure, winning tournaments gives more recognition. But still, I don't see how you can argue that it's beneficial to allow it to continue. The most you can say is that it doesn't matter. Not everyone agrees though.
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Thanks a lot for dropping some names, make it really easier for a us to witchhunt!
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There is no difference between a pro-gamer leveling another guy's account for money or playing a new account from scratch on his own. The first 20 games will get noobs crushed in both cases. So what's the deal? OP sounds like some bored attention seeking kid
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this shit took the halo matchmaking, which was already pure garbage, and made it completely and totally meaningless
not only does result in the individual getting a grossly inflated rank, it also artificially inflates the rank of anyone who plays a game against this person, due to them scoring huge points off their MMR
end result is that if this ever becomes a true epidemic, like it did in halo, master league will suddenly become meaningless
may a swift hammer crack the skulls of all professionals who do this shit
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You know... ST_Rainbow have the ads for powerleveling on his Stream for forever...
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On July 16 2012 23:54 Zanno wrote: this shit took the halo matchmaking, which was already pure garbage, and made it completely and totally meaningless
not only does result in the individual getting a grossly inflated rank, it also artificially inflates the rank of anyone who plays a game against this person, due to them scoring huge points off their MMR
end result is that if this ever becomes a true epidemic, like it did in halo, master league will suddenly become meaningless
may a swift hammer crack the skulls of all professionals who do this shit Except for that will only happen if more then 50% of the player base does this.
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On July 16 2012 23:59 ragz_gt wrote:You know... ST_Rainbow have the ads for powerleveling on his Stream for forever... lol i was just about to post this...
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Frankly, as far as establishing Top 200 players goes, GM is a total joke, which is totally the fault of Blizzard for implementing it the way they did. Aside from that, I find it very difficult to care about this happening. I don't really see anyone getting hurt by this, and if a bunch of idiots want to donate some money to pros who often need it, then I'm not going to stop them.
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It's not a problem at all. As for your reasons:
1) Who cares about the EULA? I mean, really?
2) This no more hurts players than pros having 5 GM accounts hurts players.
3) Guilty by association? Lol.
4) Not really a problem with account levelling itself.
5) Baseless speculation
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On July 16 2012 23:54 Zanno wrote: this shit took the halo matchmaking, which was already pure garbage, and made it completely and totally meaningless
not only does result in the individual getting a grossly inflated rank, it also artificially inflates the rank of anyone who plays a game against this person, due to them scoring huge points off their MMR
end result is that if this ever becomes a true epidemic, like it did in halo, master league will suddenly become meaningless
may a swift hammer crack the skulls of all professionals who do this shit
Im trying to figure out which halo system you are referring to. Halo Reach uses a hidden MMR system with no real ranks but its arena is closest to the blizzard ranking system (it also is terrible) but the way your post talks about it it seems like you are referring to the 2-3 matchmaking system which for those who dont know is a rank 1-50 style system where if you lose you go down and if you win you go up which as a whole was the best MM system ive ever played on a game.
The problem with having a cool reward at the top is that people will do whatever it takes to get it (including hacking) but preventing that is the job of the game company. The beauty of Halo's system (specifically 2) and to a lesser extent SC2's matchmaking system is that you have a clear goal. Halo's system was simpler in setting a goal (its a lot easier to try to gain 5 levels than go up a league) but the ability to have that goal keeps you playing and aiming for it and if anythign is the reason there are so many leagues and I wouldnt be surprised if there were more in HotS.
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On July 16 2012 23:44 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Alright, so it doesn't "prevent it", my bad. It doesn't lower your chances to be recognized though. Sure, winning tournaments gives more recognition. But still, I don't see how you can argue that it's beneficial to allow it to continue. The most you can say is that it doesn't matter. Not everyone agrees though. I bet most people who got account leveled up to GM will only hold for 1,2 seasons at max. So if you "GM spot" "accidentally" got kicked out because of that dude, you will be able to get it back in 3 month season anyway. If a player forever can't reach that GM spot, then I don't think he's categorized as upcoming player....
200 spots in GM fluctuates too much every seasons, you see new names popped up every time. The only way you can be recognized in GM is to hold GM spot for a long period of time.
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There is nothing wrong with Professional players leveling for somebody else. In the end, if you pay somebody to level for you, but you are not at that skill level, you will drop back to your true ranking.
Also, the people that claim it prevents up and coming players from being noticed is hogwash. Pros already have multiple accounts in GM.
If anything, this provides a little extra cash for Pros. Professional SC2 players do not make much money. Let them make a little extra change because they are giving up their careers to be a pro gamer.
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I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol.
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Where this would really be funny if they have one of those blizzard tournaments which pull invites from the gm pool on ladder....and then have some kid who got boosted get invited. haha
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On July 17 2012 00:19 Leyra wrote: I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol.
People will pay for a rank they didnt earn despite the fact that they know they wont keep it. The people who buy these are either convinced that they really are that good they just cant break thru the "lowbie wall" or they just want it so they can say they have it which is sort of a waste of money to me but who was I to judge.
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On July 16 2012 23:54 Zanno wrote: this shit took the halo matchmaking, which was already pure garbage, and made it completely and totally meaningless
not only does result in the individual getting a grossly inflated rank, it also artificially inflates the rank of anyone who plays a game against this person, due to them scoring huge points off their MMR
end result is that if this ever becomes a true epidemic, like it did in halo, master league will suddenly become meaningless
may a swift hammer crack the skulls of all professionals who do this shit
Existence of all-ins made masters fairly meaningless long before.
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On July 17 2012 00:23 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:19 Leyra wrote: I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol. People will pay for a rank they didnt earn despite the fact that they know they wont keep it. The people who buy these are either convinced that they really are that good they just cant break thru the "lowbie wall" or they just want it so they can say they have it which is sort of a waste of money to me but who was I to judge.
"lowbie wall"? i would understand that if this was League of Legends or any other 5v5 game where you get matched with randoms and cant do much alone, but in sc2? LMAO do people like that realy exist
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You have no proof at all. This thread is just stupid. Even if it was Naama playing, you have no idea if he claims money for it or not.
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On July 16 2012 23:38 alderamin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:20 GreEny K wrote:On July 16 2012 16:36 alderamin wrote: It is ladder abuse and thus cheating. In the past the community has tried to ban people who ladder abuse and cheat from all tournaments for a period of time.. And Kespa even banned people for life. Of course Blizzard will ban those accounts too. Who has KeSPA banned for this? Nobody comes to mind, and I've been watching SC for a while. Calling deliberate misreading on this. KeSPA banned people for life for cheating. TL and foreigner community banned people for cheating through ladder abuse. Just abusing 1 game = 1 year ban. TL ladder abuse bans were for a tournament qualifier ladder.
That said, anyone trying to use a rank they didn't earn as a credential deserves to get called out.
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On July 17 2012 00:26 nkr wrote: You have no proof at all. This thread is just stupid. Even if it was Naama playing, you have no idea if he claims money for it or not.
Well I'd say Rainbow's stream comment is a pretty solid proof. Though I don't think it's that bad. Probably against rule but not hurting anyone really.
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On July 17 2012 00:29 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:26 nkr wrote: You have no proof at all. This thread is just stupid. Even if it was Naama playing, you have no idea if he claims money for it or not. Well I'd say Rainbow's stream comment is a pretty solid proof. Though I don't think it's that bad. Probably against rule but not hurting anyone really.
I am more refering to that he is calling out Naama in the first half of his thread, without any solid proof.
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Putting money in players pockets.... People paying for it, shouldnt be there anyways... Ladder will adjust them back down eventually where they should be. Less qq about people paying, more practice to get there yourself. GOGO
On July 17 2012 00:11 Shiori wrote: It's not a problem at all. As for your reasons:
1) Who cares about the EULA? I mean, really?
2) This no more hurts players than pros having 5 GM accounts hurts players.
3) Guilty by association? Lol.
4) Not really a problem with account levelling itself.
5) Baseless speculation
^^ Pretty much
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On July 17 2012 00:30 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:29 ragz_gt wrote:On July 17 2012 00:26 nkr wrote: You have no proof at all. This thread is just stupid. Even if it was Naama playing, you have no idea if he claims money for it or not. Well I'd say Rainbow's stream comment is a pretty solid proof. Though I don't think it's that bad. Probably against rule but not hurting anyone really. I am more refering to that he is calling out Naama in the first half of his thread, without any solid proof.
Ah that's fair. I wouldn't call anyone without solid proof. Though the practice itself surely existed for forever (in SC2 term).
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On July 17 2012 00:25 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:23 Adreme wrote:On July 17 2012 00:19 Leyra wrote: I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol. People will pay for a rank they didnt earn despite the fact that they know they wont keep it. The people who buy these are either convinced that they really are that good they just cant break thru the "lowbie wall" or they just want it so they can say they have it which is sort of a waste of money to me but who was I to judge. "lowbie wall"? i would understand that if this was League of Legends or any other 5v5 game where you get matched with randoms and cant do much alone, but in sc2? LMAO do people like that realy exist
The attitudes of gamers across different genres are virtually identical. In Halo (im using 3 here) there were TONS of people who always thought they could keep up at 50 in any team game but they just didnt get good enough teammates to get them there. They believe it because one time they beat someone who used to be 50 (used to for a reason) and that if they just got an account there they could hold onto it themselves.
To bring the argument into SC2, a lot of people feel like they certainly belong in diamond or masters but they just cant hold the cheeses to get there. They say this with the same conviction that the guy who plays Halo says it with and it leads to buying accounts in sc2 as well (or hacking).
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lol. why would anyone actually pay to have an account leveled beyond their ability to play? seriously you have such an inferiority complex that you need to pay money so you can say you are good, something you could never actually prove in a live 1v1. Ridiculous. These are the people with the hummers and the Dodge Rams on monster truck wheels. Got to be compensating for something.
Honestly it just surprises me that such empty titles like GM mean anything if you can't actually do the work required by the title. People. I'll never understand.
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On July 17 2012 00:23 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:19 Leyra wrote: I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol. People will pay for a rank they didnt earn despite the fact that they know they wont keep it. The people who buy these are either convinced that they really are that good they just cant break thru the "lowbie wall" or they just want it so they can say they have it which is sort of a waste of money to me but who was I to judge.
You forgot about Kawaii's point, that people can use an inflated GM account as basis for coaching, which in turn, takes legitimate income from legitimate pros who offer such coaching. So, the irony is that this does hurt eSports because it makes it more difficult for pros to earn a living in eSports. Have a nice day
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should the person getting the rank up or the ranker get shit on?
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If i recall correctly, this will become perfectly legal because of some new law allowing the reselling of licensed products
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On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right?
Nooo, you get your account to GM and then you go around telling everyone how good you are at SC2 to impress teh ladies.
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Idiots throwing their money at pro-gamers is a good thing, especially Korean pros with little to no salary.
Rainbow was doing it for a good while on his stream before going to the army. He enjoyed doing it, the viewers enjoyed watching it and he earned money doing it. And let's not forget that the customers were happy with it.
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I always wondered why in the world someone would pay for a high ranking account. Aside from very minor scamming opportunities (streaming, selling coaching), which probably wouldn't last long before being discovered as a fraud, it seems completely pointless. No one cares about your ladder rank but you. Is that GM star really worth however much they are paying(how much ARE they paying?)?
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On July 17 2012 00:40 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:23 Adreme wrote:On July 17 2012 00:19 Leyra wrote: I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol. People will pay for a rank they didnt earn despite the fact that they know they wont keep it. The people who buy these are either convinced that they really are that good they just cant break thru the "lowbie wall" or they just want it so they can say they have it which is sort of a waste of money to me but who was I to judge. You forgot about Kawaii's point, that people can use an inflated GM account as basis for coaching, which in turn, takes legitimate income from legitimate pros who offer such coaching. So, the irony is that this does hurt eSports because it makes it more difficult for pros to earn a living in eSports. Have a nice day
Not saying this never happened, but it is a rather limited use. A much bigger problem is GM hackers offer coaching lessons (IMNesTea on NA comes to mind), but even that is not a issue since most people ask for pro-coach actually want name recognition first, which boosted accounts don't have.
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and i already found buying chars in mmos strange, where you could be max level in 2 days. Don't think it is a big issue for the ladder, sure you get beaten up by a runner up, but you get to beat them up when they run down again. But agree people that do that aren't pros anymore, but rather item farmer class.
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On July 17 2012 00:50 HardlyNever wrote: I always wondered why in the world someone would pay for a high ranking account. Aside from very minor scamming opportunities (streaming, selling coaching), which probably wouldn't last long before being discovered as a fraud, it seems completely pointless. No one cares about your ladder rank but you. Is that GM star really worth however much they are paying(how much ARE they paying?)?
Rainbow charges $35 for first rank and $30 after, directly from his stream http://www.twitch.tv/kimsungje
So... $185 from bronze to GM
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On July 17 2012 00:50 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:40 Kaitlin wrote:On July 17 2012 00:23 Adreme wrote:On July 17 2012 00:19 Leyra wrote: I don't get why someone is dumb enough to pay for this, but even more I don't get why anyone else cares, lol. People will pay for a rank they didnt earn despite the fact that they know they wont keep it. The people who buy these are either convinced that they really are that good they just cant break thru the "lowbie wall" or they just want it so they can say they have it which is sort of a waste of money to me but who was I to judge. You forgot about Kawaii's point, that people can use an inflated GM account as basis for coaching, which in turn, takes legitimate income from legitimate pros who offer such coaching. So, the irony is that this does hurt eSports because it makes it more difficult for pros to earn a living in eSports. Have a nice day Not saying this never happened, but it is a rather limited use. A much bigger problem is GM hackers offer coaching lessons (IMNesTea on NA comes to mind), but even that is not a issue since most people ask for pro-coach actually want name recognition first, which boosted accounts don't have.
Anything short of a low master player probably couldnt hold onto a GM spot throughout the season much less do it with anything resembling a good enough record to get someone to buy coaching lessons. Now a hacker could probably do it but those are 2 entirely different conversations.
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Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money.
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I am going to start selling down-leveling services to anyone who has had their account leveled and want to get back to bronze i will charge 30$ per down level and i can even get you into a bronze 2v2 league no charge.
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On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money.
I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason.
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On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please.
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On July 17 2012 01:07 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please.
same hotkeys is not solid proof. and i think your respect doesnt feed "naama" if it is him.
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the ladder really doesn't matter much so its fine. Its not like theyre playing for someone in a tournament or something which would be infinitely worse
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Well, maybe when a silver or a bronze leaguer comes to TL and post some opinion about the game the ppl needs to be more friendly. What i see is: "- Oh man, u r not masters, so u r not in a DECENT lvl, sry, go post in another forum." So...this ppl thinks if they get some better league they will have more e-penis to express their opinion. Sorry guys, but this forum indirectly is encouraging this type of service. Think about it
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On July 17 2012 01:07 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please.
Except even if he is, I don't think most of the community cares. This is just another "smurf" account (which no one complains about smurfs) that ends up earning them some extra money. I think the people acting like this matters and is a big deal are in the minority.
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If the free market supports progamers leveling accounts, I personally don't have a problem with it. Whoever pays for it will never be able to play 1v1s on it without getitng stomped, so why do I care? For a stupid orange star?
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This isn't wrong to do and doesn't hurt anyone. The OPs reasons that they do hurt people aren't very good. Aspiring pros trying to break into the scene can't use grandmaster league as a show of accomplishment because it isn't one. What they need are replays demonstrating ability against skilled opponents, not a league. All of his other reasons are conjectures that people who buy leveling are people who hack. Well then, go after the hacking, not against non-hacking.
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GM is just full of smurfs anyway. A few extra won't hurt. They are cheating the ladder, not the game.
The Blizzard ladder is irrelevent anyway since the best way to get noticed as an up and coming player is to do well in an tournament.
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After thoroughly reading the OP I still don't see any issue with account leveling. Unless you want players like Naama to give up pro-gaming this is something a lot of pro-gamers have to do. Not every pro can be winning tournaments and getting money and many don't play for salary leaving them with 0 income. I think the only people who have problems with this are high masters players thinking "damn if only there weren't smurfs and accounts that are leveled, then I'd have a shot at grandmasters," which I think is god awful reasoning to call a player like Naama out on.
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i have no problem with it. It basically acts like a smurf for the pro, and its a way for them to make money. Keep trucking naama
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On July 17 2012 01:40 aRyuujin wrote: i have no problem with it. It basically acts like a smurf for the pro, and its a way for them to make money. Keep trucking naama Yeah he beat mvp at HSC he's better now then ever before.
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yeah pro gamer gets more practice and money, people who play the person who receives the account later get free wins assuming they got overlevelled
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To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former.
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On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. Because nobody cares about your ladder rank except for yourself.
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On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former.
The difference here is that SAT scores are permanent, GM status is only going to last these people maybe 2 weeks at most? It's an entirely different concept honestly. This comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also comparing the legitimacy of a student's educational record with that of a player's gaming status? I don't think the two are on nearly the same level of significance.
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On July 16 2012 16:41 Le BucheRON wrote: having someone level your account is just sad. Stupid and sad. That's all. No big deal. true it's just patetic but nothing more, why anyone will care. And the only thing will make me hate progamers will be match fixing :s
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there are people legitimately struggling to get into GM and there is also a Blizzard tournament for GM players.
so, how is it not a big deal?
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Just to voice an opinion, this is bad and should be punished. Not acceptable practice from so called "PROgamers".
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I agree, for the most part, with OP.
To condone this simply because pro gamers are underpaid is ludicrous.
Poll please, would like to know more opinions.
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On July 17 2012 01:45 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. Because nobody cares about your ladder rank except for yourself. Not true, a lot of people look at ladder rank as a measure of ability.
How many times have people said 'X caster sucks, they're only in Y league'?
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On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former.
Come on now, that comparison is beyond silly. Even if GM were an accurate representation of the Top200 players on a given server (which it isn't), there'd still be smurfs, shared accounts, and a bunch of other stuff that never comes into play with standardized tests. Go on sc2ranks, and take a look at Korean GM, you'll see barcode players making up about half of it, and a lot of these accounts are shared between a whole team for the purpose of anonymous practice. The ladder has no integrity in the way that you and a bunch of other people would want it to, and you don' gain recognition by getting into GM. You gain recognition by placing high in online tournaments - that's how a ton of good European players began their career, the likes of Nerchio and Stephano included.
So yeah, I really don't care if this becomes a common phenomenon (which I doubt it will), and as a mid-Masters player on EU, I don't feel as if it particularly affects me. I'm actually somewhat happy to be able to play against pros levelling up their smurfs occasionally.
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On July 17 2012 01:56 ilbh wrote: there are people legitimately struggling to get into GM and there is also a Blizzard tournament for GM players.
so, how is it not a big deal? Which tournament is there for gm players?
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On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former.
Nope, still don't care. Ladder ranking is, has always been, and will always be for that level of player, pointless. What teams are looking at your name being on GM? They will want to test you, watch replays, see you in tournaments. For overall scene recognition being on GM gets you nothing either, you have to get your name out with stream and tournaments. So really it is just for you to feel good about yourself, but Smurf accounts knock you out anyways. If you truly deserve to be in GM then you will be
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On July 17 2012 01:09 Digamma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:07 Cubu wrote:On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please. same hotkeys is not solid proof. and i think your respect doesnt feed "naama" if it is him.
The hotkey graphs prove beyond s reasonable doubt that it's Naama. Sc2gears hotkey graphs are like fingerprints for sc2 players. The odds that any two Terran players use the same hotkeys for 1-0 AND assign and tap those hotkeys in PRECISELY the same pattern are very, very low. Load up a couple random Terran pros' replays in sc2gears and see how different they are. Moreover, load up several replays of the same player and see how SIMILAR they are. I actually wonder if someone could develop a plug-in for sc2gears that would compare the hotkey graphs of a replay against a database of pros' hotkey graphs to identify every smurf account on the ladder lol.
I would like to respond to the many counterarguments that have come up in this thread and will do so when I get home from work, and probably update the OP.
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On July 17 2012 02:05 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:45 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. Because nobody cares about your ladder rank except for yourself. Not true, a lot of people look at ladder rank as a measure of ability. How many times have people said 'X caster sucks, they're only in Y league'?
And when are they ever taken seriously? It's likely the same people arguing that GM earns you sponsors.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant.
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I think you need more evidence than this to accuse Naama of anything. I hate this stupid witch hunt stuff which is what this has likely turned into by oage 16.
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On July 17 2012 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:09 Digamma wrote:On July 17 2012 01:07 Cubu wrote:On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please. same hotkeys is not solid proof. and i think your respect doesnt feed "naama" if it is him. The hotkey graphs prove beyond s reasonable doubt that it's Naama. Sc2gears hotkey graphs are like fingerprints for sc2 players. The odds that any two Terran players use the same hotkeys for 1-0 AND assign and tap those hotkeys in PRECISELY the same pattern are very, very low. Load up a couple random Terran pros' replays in sc2gears and see how different they are. Moreover, load up several replays of the same player and see how SIMILAR they are. I actually wonder if someone could develop a plug-in for sc2gears that would compare the hotkey graphs of a replay against a database of pros' hotkey graphs to identify every smurf account on the ladder lol. I would like to respond to the many counterarguments that have come up in this thread and will do so when I get home from work, and probably update the OP. The odds that one person does anything in the exact same pattern are low and with enough terrans out there it is just as likely to me that it is not Naama. Find more proof or stop trying to tarnish another person's life. This is his life people are messing with.
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On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. because.... you're comparing SAT's with a game ladder.
maybe if you said like OSL prims or something... then *maybe* but not game ladder -_-
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Well it is the start of a new week, I guess we were due for another witchhunt soon enough. This is kinda silly to me, leveling accounts doesn't mean that person is going into a tourny and win it, they gain nothing from ladder then the ability to say to their friends, they are high masters etc.
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Haven't pros used each others accounts to practice on for quite some time? I don't think this is big problem. Most pros care about tournaments more than ladder anyway and just use it as practice. To everyone else it's just a game to get better. Even if it is part of the EULA, I don't think Blizzard cares much.
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On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant.
And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile.
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I feel a thread is warranted and productive because it brings to light a potentially harmful practice and enables the community to hold accountable those engaging in the practice.
Here we go again..
The only ones we need to police is ourselves. Being a fan of something does not convey you with any rights or moral high ground. Jesus. Every week >< It's ladder. It means nothing.
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Seems the overwhelming response is that it doesn't matter, and i have to agree. In fact, it could be really helpful to people who's skill level is higher than their account, but don't have time enough to play and accrue points >800 for promotions. It's just a victimless crime. Struggling semi-pro gamers have to get into GM on their own, and if they can't just because a couple of actually good progamers level additional accounts, I doubt they'll ever be successful enough to sustain themselves unless they create a persona that the community enjoys instead of relying on skill. And if that's the case, it doesn't matter if you're in GM too much.
It also only seems that accounts leveled into GM are being targeted here. I haven't seen any posts yet with arguments against accounts getting leveled into masters, which is kinda interesting.
Also for the SAT analogy person, people have mostly told you by now that that analogy isn't very good, but just to help out, everyone can score perfects on the SAT, whereas there are only 200 spots in GM. SATs isn't an accurate measurement, or even estimation, of how well you will do in your academic/professional career, and most good universities have enough money to place anyone they want on scholarship.
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1. You cant stop them from doing it, so it doesnt matter how mad you get and how many threads you make.
2. Who gives a shit? If the biggest idiot in the world wants to waste money to get high masters or GM, let them. Let them waste their money, hopefully they dont eat that day or some shit because they dont have any more money because they think being top 8 masters actually means something.
3. This leveling service shit isnt a problem; it is literally insignificant to the game and the community, and makes no positive OR negative impact on anything at all.
One of the best ways to make money in this world is to play off the stupidity of other people. Make them think they need something that they absolutely do not need. Happens all the time in the tech industry.
For example, You get a pop up that says "you have been infected! click here to scan!" and then some idiot clicks it, gets infected, and then gets thrown to a website to buy software that gets rid of the virus, oh btw the ones that sold the software to you are the ones that infected you in the first place.
If for some reason this does actually bother you, I urge those people to troll and flame the fuck out of the "pro's" that advertise their 'leveling service', though. Make them feel unwanted.
If it's annoying when they spam that shit in sc2 bnet chat channels, just call them fucking retarded and then put them on ignore. You accomplish 2 things: you make them feel dumb, and then you get rid of the spam. It's like a win-win.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile.
I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time.
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On July 17 2012 02:35 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile. I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time.
You haven't played SC2 recently? It's an achievement for reaching grandmaster. Theres different ones for each level of GM you reach. On your SC2 profile you can organize achievements to display, where subsequently these players are going to plant the shiny orange badge right on the front so it's the first thing everyone sees when they look at their profile.
All you have to do is attain grandmaster. You have now forever earned your grandmaster badge to win every chat debate because you're grandmaster and hes gold and your orange colored achievement is superior to his orange colored achievement. Getting to sit in GM for a few weeks is cool, maybe get to fight some pros, but this is what they're usually after. There are similar achievements for every league. Account leveling shouldn't be a reason to remove them but I cant stand them in general -- and I'm an achievement whore.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On July 17 2012 02:39 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:35 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile. I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time. You don't play SC2? It's an achievement for reaching grandmaster. Theres different ones for each level of GM you reach. On your SC2 profile you can organize achievements to display, where subsequently these players are going to plant the shiny orange badge right on the front so it's the first thing everyone sees when they look at their profile. All you have to do is attain grandmaster. You have now forever earned your grandmaster badge to win every chat debate because you're grandmaster and hes gold and your orange colored achievement is superior to his orange colored achievement. Getting to sit in GM for a few weeks is cool, maybe get to fight some pros, but this is what they're usually after. There are similar achievements for every league. Account leveling shouldn't be a reason to remove them but I cant stand them in general -- and I'm an achievement whore.
I play Sc2 but I haven't gotten into GM before, so I haven't gotten that achivement ;_;
I also don't typically look at dude's profiles so I guess I never noticed it.
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On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;.
On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things.
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On July 17 2012 02:43 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:39 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:35 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile. I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time. You don't play SC2? It's an achievement for reaching grandmaster. Theres different ones for each level of GM you reach. On your SC2 profile you can organize achievements to display, where subsequently these players are going to plant the shiny orange badge right on the front so it's the first thing everyone sees when they look at their profile. All you have to do is attain grandmaster. You have now forever earned your grandmaster badge to win every chat debate because you're grandmaster and hes gold and your orange colored achievement is superior to his orange colored achievement. Getting to sit in GM for a few weeks is cool, maybe get to fight some pros, but this is what they're usually after. There are similar achievements for every league. Account leveling shouldn't be a reason to remove them but I cant stand them in general -- and I'm an achievement whore. I play Sc2 but I haven't gotten into GM before, so I haven't gotten that achivement ;_; I also don't typically look at dude's profiles so I guess I never noticed it.
Eh, theres an achievement for every single league, bronze through GM, both 1v1 and team. It was added semi-recently though. Sorry for assuming. T-T
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Wow this is sad. What is sad is that people care so much about ladder points that:
1) They'll pay for them. 2) They'll make hate thread pages on TL because they think someone else got THEIR ladder points.
Notice the real players at the top of the ladder aren't whining about this. To them GM is a joke. As it should be to us all.
Get better at the game and stop blaming others for your losses.
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On July 17 2012 02:39 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:35 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile. I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time. You don't play SC2? It's an achievement for reaching grandmaster. Theres different ones for each level of GM you reach. On your SC2 profile you can organize achievements to display, where subsequently these players are going to plant the shiny orange badge right on the front so it's the first thing everyone sees when they look at their profile. All you have to do is attain grandmaster. You have now forever earned your grandmaster badge to win every chat debate because you're grandmaster and hes gold and your orange colored achievement is superior to his orange colored achievement. Getting to sit in GM for a few weeks is cool, maybe get to fight some pros, but this is what they're usually after. There are similar achievements for every league. Account leveling shouldn't be a reason to remove them but I cant stand them in general -- and I'm an achievement whore.
Yeah because......being GM ....means something to everyone on the internet. Everyone cares about your achievement 'gallery'. And...well..
God damnit I cant even troll this post lol. It's just so dumb. Congrats to you sir. It is an achievement to make an untrollable post because of how dumb it is lol.
User was warned for this post
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On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm.
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Like plenty have said already, there are tons of smurfs in GM. It's not a recognition of the top 200, probably more like top 120~150; that's just part of the struggle to get into GM. There are always going to be people better than you getting in with multiple accounts. And if someone pays for coaching just because the coach is GM, then they're just stupid. It's their fault for not looking into the guy. As for hacking, that's an issue that needs to be taken care of separately. Your claim that the hacking communities charge as a middle-man for these transactions seems completely unfounded.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm.
But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does!
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On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support.
There is no such thing as integrity of ladder. Every 2nd game you're going to get called a nigger retard faggot. Hackers, streamcheaters, and kids that spam EZ EZ EZ.
You can't lower the integrity of something that has none.
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On July 17 2012 02:50 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:39 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:35 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile. I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time. You don't play SC2? It's an achievement for reaching grandmaster. Theres different ones for each level of GM you reach. On your SC2 profile you can organize achievements to display, where subsequently these players are going to plant the shiny orange badge right on the front so it's the first thing everyone sees when they look at their profile. All you have to do is attain grandmaster. You have now forever earned your grandmaster badge to win every chat debate because you're grandmaster and hes gold and your orange colored achievement is superior to his orange colored achievement. Getting to sit in GM for a few weeks is cool, maybe get to fight some pros, but this is what they're usually after. There are similar achievements for every league. Account leveling shouldn't be a reason to remove them but I cant stand them in general -- and I'm an achievement whore. Yeah because......being GM ....means something to everyone on the internet. Everyone cares about your achievement 'gallery'. And...well.. God damnit I cant even troll this post lol. It's just so dumb. Congrats to you sir. It is an achievement to make an untrollable post because of how dumb it is lol.
You can start by reading it and understand I'm mocking the persona I described.
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On July 17 2012 02:23 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:On July 17 2012 01:09 Digamma wrote:On July 17 2012 01:07 Cubu wrote:On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please. same hotkeys is not solid proof. and i think your respect doesnt feed "naama" if it is him. The hotkey graphs prove beyond s reasonable doubt that it's Naama. Sc2gears hotkey graphs are like fingerprints for sc2 players. The odds that any two Terran players use the same hotkeys for 1-0 AND assign and tap those hotkeys in PRECISELY the same pattern are very, very low. Load up a couple random Terran pros' replays in sc2gears and see how different they are. Moreover, load up several replays of the same player and see how SIMILAR they are. I actually wonder if someone could develop a plug-in for sc2gears that would compare the hotkey graphs of a replay against a database of pros' hotkey graphs to identify every smurf account on the ladder lol. I would like to respond to the many counterarguments that have come up in this thread and will do so when I get home from work, and probably update the OP. The odds that one person does anything in the exact same pattern are low and with enough terrans out there it is just as likely to me that it is not Naama. Find more proof or stop trying to tarnish another person's life. This is his life people are messing with.
I don't think you tested out any replays in sc2gears like I suggested. Otherwise you would know just how low the odds are.
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On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! That is a another topic and should be discussed here I think. I have to say I misunderstood you're post and thought you were arguing for something else.
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On July 17 2012 02:50 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:39 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:35 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:26 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 02:20 Blazinghand wrote: You know, if it was just people getting levelled into Master, maybe it'd be okay, just because you can get demoted pretty easily so these guys will all have like 500 bonus pool from not playing and will look like tools.
The issue though is they're getting boosted into GM, and there's two problems with that: 1) GM has a limited number of players 2) you can't get demoted out of GM easily
These two factors, the limited size and the low turnover, combine to make GM a farce. If, in addition to hackers and cheesers and random players who laddered at the right time of day when GM went live (anyone remember that?) there are inactive boosters or boosters with like gold MMR in GM, any meaning the GM icon had will fade away.
I don't think reasonably you can stop people from doing this boosting. There's no easy way to regulate it, assuming it's not streamed, and certainly no way to regulate it without accidentally banned regular folk. The only option, I think, is for Blizzard to change the way GM works. Make it so GM is an extra badge you get on top of your master badge, if, at the start of that day, your MMR was in the top 200-- not some weird independent league that only opens for a week or two each season. This way, everyone keeps their spot in their regular master leagues, and if your MMR tanks, you're out of GM like normal. People won't be boosting accounts into GM, and all it'll mean is "top 200 MMR", which, really, is all it should have ever meant. And remove the feats of strength they'll proudly display on their profile. I'm not really familiar with those, but if it's for winning a bunch of games, couldn't you just tank into bronze and spam games to get them? I think focussing on reforming GM is probably a better use of blizz time. You don't play SC2? It's an achievement for reaching grandmaster. Theres different ones for each level of GM you reach. On your SC2 profile you can organize achievements to display, where subsequently these players are going to plant the shiny orange badge right on the front so it's the first thing everyone sees when they look at their profile. All you have to do is attain grandmaster. You have now forever earned your grandmaster badge to win every chat debate because you're grandmaster and hes gold and your orange colored achievement is superior to his orange colored achievement. Getting to sit in GM for a few weeks is cool, maybe get to fight some pros, but this is what they're usually after. There are similar achievements for every league. Account leveling shouldn't be a reason to remove them but I cant stand them in general -- and I'm an achievement whore. Yeah because......being GM ....means something to everyone on the internet. Everyone cares about your achievement 'gallery'. And...well.. God damnit I cant even troll this post lol. It's just so dumb. Congrats to you sir. It is an achievement to make an untrollable post because of how dumb it is lol.
Actually to a lot of people it does, that makes you special in a way that a lot of players can't attain, its a thrill ride and an ego boost even if you yourself didn't do it. his post isn't dumb, its pretty practical for the normal person. If you are saying that in a peepmode custom game someone says that they are GM and basically says you are shit because you are measily plat, they pretty much get to ruin your experience. You can say that it doesn't matter, but to some people, having a good time and not getting attacked during any random multiplayer experience because they aren't "good enough" means a lot. Achievement whores exist in SC2 also, btw if you think its dumb, sure thats your choice, but you shouldn't call anyone dumb for it.
On a side note, when the "GM hackers are growing" thread came out people were up in arms about stopping the hackers and cheaters, but on this thread people don't seem to care that these guys are cheating their way by buying wins. Buying winning stuff is what supposedly made D3 not as fun, and I would assume would ruin a lot of people's experiences. It wastes peoples time playing against levelled scrubs, it wastes GM space from people who could use it, and it definitely destroys the ladder system by placing a pro vs a joe who wouldn't normally play them. Sure pros smurf all the time and yeah people drop to go port farming, but most of that (other than smurfing) is usually looked down upon as something that ruins other peoples experiences. Its a weird double standard that this thread is posing, and I wonder if its because its different people that the other thread.
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On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! Because ladder isn't anything like playing in a tournament, and because the MMR ceiling means that any decently high Masters player will make GM if they're active.
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Being top 16 GM gets you 'some' attention because people are constantly looking at the ladder ranks for those spots. Even though it doesnt really matter too much, some people like keeping track of the top 16 players on each server.
But let's just say someone actually that good levels your account to top 8 GM. How long do you think you are going to stay there? 1 Day? 2? Woooow. Lets visit magical chrismas land for a second, and imagine you getting a team offer from being on the top of the sc2 bnet ladder (lol). How long do you think your charade will last to the team? 1 Day? Hell, 3 hours? Woooow. Guess thats worth it, in magical chrismas land.
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I like this is out there. I can blame my loses on levelers lolz. Seriously just sad ppl would do this but I guess it's cool for players who make some paper. Oh well.
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Either you take the ladder seriously or you don't.
But you should acknowledge that some people do take ladder seriously and account leveling is cheating the system therefore they are upset.
If Blizzard wants the ladder to be taken seriously it should deal with this problem or else there will be fewer and fewer ladder players.
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Don't see how this affects coaching, it should be pretty obvious if the coach is good or bad during the first hour.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On July 17 2012 02:58 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! Because ladder isn't anything like playing in a tournament, and because the MMR ceiling means that any decently high Masters player will make GM if they're active.
Would it be possible to remove the MMR ceiling? Maybe make GM, instead of its own league, a little badge you get next to your league icon if you're in the top 200 MMR in the past week? That way, you can't get boosted "into" GM and stay there by idling.
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On July 17 2012 03:01 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:58 Shiori wrote:On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! Because ladder isn't anything like playing in a tournament, and because the MMR ceiling means that any decently high Masters player will make GM if they're active. Would it be possible to remove the MMR ceiling? Maybe make GM, instead of its own league, a little badge you get next to your league icon if you're in the top 200 MMR in the past week? That way, you can't get boosted "into" GM and stay there by idling. We had that when certain pros had almost no chance to find any match on ladder. The ceiling may be a problem, but removing it brings others.
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I read many posts in this thread, and a lot of them talk about how some pros aren't paid very much, so they need to resort to this... That's simply not a good reason. If I'd be paid 10$/hour, I'd consider myself pretty poor, but I would not go around and shoplift because I need more money. I would not steal a bank either. If some progamers aren't paid enough, then maybe they are not good enough yet or haven't proven themselves yet.
If they are not happy with this situation, nothing forces them to stay progamers forever, they can just quit and find a stable job. But if you go against the EULA just to make a bit more money, you deserve to be banned like anyone who goes against the EULA and the tournament organizers/teams can decide if they want to keep you or not. Progaming isn't an easy job, and it's not a job where you have guaranteed money; people need to stop acting like everyone should be able to live well from this.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:05 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:01 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:58 Shiori wrote:On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! Because ladder isn't anything like playing in a tournament, and because the MMR ceiling means that any decently high Masters player will make GM if they're active. Would it be possible to remove the MMR ceiling? Maybe make GM, instead of its own league, a little badge you get next to your league icon if you're in the top 200 MMR in the past week? That way, you can't get boosted "into" GM and stay there by idling. We had that when certain pros had almost no chance to find any match on ladder. The ceiling may be a problem, but removing it brings others.
Okay, well maybe you have after you "search" and then "expanded search" you have "uber-expanded search" which lets you reach back down through the clouds to do battle with mortals-- would something like that work?
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On July 17 2012 03:01 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:58 Shiori wrote:On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! Because ladder isn't anything like playing in a tournament, and because the MMR ceiling means that any decently high Masters player will make GM if they're active. Would it be possible to remove the MMR ceiling? Maybe make GM, instead of its own league, a little badge you get next to your league icon if you're in the top 200 MMR in the past week? That way, you can't get boosted "into" GM and stay there by idling.
The biggest problem with ladder is that it doesn't (completely) represent skill. Most of the VERY best pros are in the 100s in Korean ladder, and more than half the top 50 are barcodes and / or shared team accounts.
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so what? none of your arguments are very strong or convincing. Less than 0.0000000001% do this (your thread is actually pretty good advertising for their cause). Also if someone is buying a coaching he should do his research first - and even if he didn't he should figure out after 1 hour thatf the coach sucks.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:08 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:01 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:58 Shiori wrote:On July 17 2012 02:53 Blazinghand wrote:On July 17 2012 02:50 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:45 docvoc wrote:On July 16 2012 23:41 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:38 Daniel C wrote:On July 16 2012 23:35 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 16 2012 23:28 docvoc wrote: I personally think the main thing is that this hurts the new up and coming pros, we are now just creating systems to allow players like col.Sasquatch to come about, players that need a bit of development in a big clan type scenario that could potentialliy be great and equalize the two scenes, doing this prevents the GM recognition and prevents new blood in the scene, other than that, this isn't much of an issue imo because idiots do stupid things and thats their prerogative, since when have we cared a ton about the terms of service, we have tons of mods on this site that are immensely helpful, and also break the terms of service. You can still be good even if this happens. That is kind of a stupid argument you gave. It's not. "You can still be good even if this happens." does not counter his argument. His argument ''this prevents up and coming players from being recognized'' . It's not like gm gives you any recognition winning tournaments does. Lets see here, I'm going to explain why you aren't thinking too far ahead on this one. When you win tournaments, you get lots of attention, now which tourneys give the most attention? Its the ones that teams send their players to, yes you can be a scarlet and run through one tourney and then be very quiet for a while by not winning too much, but players that want to be on teams and players that want to be recognized know that GM is a very attention grabbing place. By getting into GM you prove the point that you CAN get into GM given an equal chance. There are People like Blade5555 who are in GM in korea but aren't hugely active in big tournaments, and grab little attention other than the fact that they are GM, you see my point? They get attention from being good on the ladder circuit, not just the tourney circuit. Very few players can be ladder players and then do well in tourneys, they need practice partners and teams really give those much needed details for players to blossom. The point is that its not beneficial in any way, its not a dumb argument by any means at all, but thanks for supposedly countering my argument -_-;. On a seperate note, I know KaraNICOLE lol. I knew that he wasn't masters because he played on a team that I was on before it crashed and failed called sovereign gaming, I see him on from time to time, but the guys you are talking about are people that I am semi-familiar with. I never played against the guys, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did those things. Winning any tournament even a playhem gives you more attention then being gm. But see, maybe that's the problem here, isn't it? Maybe the fact that being GM is so discounted, due to hacks, boosting, smurfs, etc-- maybe that's WHY GM doesn't give attention, and maybe we should fix it so it does! Because ladder isn't anything like playing in a tournament, and because the MMR ceiling means that any decently high Masters player will make GM if they're active. Would it be possible to remove the MMR ceiling? Maybe make GM, instead of its own league, a little badge you get next to your league icon if you're in the top 200 MMR in the past week? That way, you can't get boosted "into" GM and stay there by idling. The biggest problem with ladder is that it doesn't (completely) represent skill. Most of the VERY best pros are in the 100s in Korean ladder, and more than half the top 50 are barcodes and / or shared team accounts.
Oh, hm, I hadn't thought about that. And of course, all those shared team accounts are technicaly smurfing/sharing/in violation of EULA as well, huh. ;_; what can we do?
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On July 17 2012 02:56 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 02:23 mrtomjones wrote:On July 17 2012 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:On July 17 2012 01:09 Digamma wrote:On July 17 2012 01:07 Cubu wrote:On July 17 2012 01:06 Prox wrote:On July 17 2012 01:03 Cubu wrote: Wow if naama doesn't do anything about this, i will have no respect for him. I remember a while back, select was doing this and the community raised concerns about it and in he admitted his mistake and stopped leveling other people's accounts for money. I think what you mean is: Wow if this thread doesn't shape up, i will have no respect for all the people accusing Naama without solid proof for no apparent reason. Read the OP please. same hotkeys is not solid proof. and i think your respect doesnt feed "naama" if it is him. The hotkey graphs prove beyond s reasonable doubt that it's Naama. Sc2gears hotkey graphs are like fingerprints for sc2 players. The odds that any two Terran players use the same hotkeys for 1-0 AND assign and tap those hotkeys in PRECISELY the same pattern are very, very low. Load up a couple random Terran pros' replays in sc2gears and see how different they are. Moreover, load up several replays of the same player and see how SIMILAR they are. I actually wonder if someone could develop a plug-in for sc2gears that would compare the hotkey graphs of a replay against a database of pros' hotkey graphs to identify every smurf account on the ladder lol. I would like to respond to the many counterarguments that have come up in this thread and will do so when I get home from work, and probably update the OP. The odds that one person does anything in the exact same pattern are low and with enough terrans out there it is just as likely to me that it is not Naama. Find more proof or stop trying to tarnish another person's life. This is his life people are messing with. I don't think you tested out any replays in sc2gears like I suggested. Otherwise you would know just how low the odds are. Or I simply don't like to ruin someones career or waste my time trying to analyse if it is the same playstyle and a hundred other things. Leave Naama alone!
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On July 17 2012 03:07 PatouPower wrote: I read many posts in this thread, and a lot of them talk about how some pros aren't paid very much, so they need to resort to this... That's simply not a good reason. If I'd be paid 10$/hour, I'd consider myself pretty poor, but I would not go around and shoplift because I need more money. I would not steal a bank either. If some progamers aren't paid enough, then maybe they are not good enough yet or haven't proven themselves yet.
If they are not happy with this situation, nothing forces them to stay progamers forever, they can just quit and find a stable job. But if you go against the EULA just to make a bit more money, you deserve to be banned like anyone who goes against the EULA and the tournament organizers/teams can decide if they want to keep you or not. Progaming isn't an easy job, and it's not a job where you have guaranteed money; people need to stop acting like everyone should be able to live well from this.
You shouldn't be allowed to do this just because you're pro and want money. You should be allowed to do this regardless of your profession if you're able to provide the service to a player willing to pay. Tons of people go against the EULA. None of them get banned for it. I don't know anyone who has ever gotten banned for sharing accounts, which is the particular rule this breaks.
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On July 17 2012 02:59 Snijjer wrote: Either you take the ladder seriously or you don't.
But you should acknowledge that some people do take ladder seriously and account leveling is cheating the system therefore they are upset.
If Blizzard wants the ladder to be taken seriously it should deal with this problem or else there will be fewer and fewer ladder players.
It is cheating for no benefit. It's like cheating in a competition with no prize, and no one watching. It's like stealing a rock off of the ground in a courtyard. It's stealing something worthless.
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On July 17 2012 03:11 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:07 PatouPower wrote: I read many posts in this thread, and a lot of them talk about how some pros aren't paid very much, so they need to resort to this... That's simply not a good reason. If I'd be paid 10$/hour, I'd consider myself pretty poor, but I would not go around and shoplift because I need more money. I would not steal a bank either. If some progamers aren't paid enough, then maybe they are not good enough yet or haven't proven themselves yet.
If they are not happy with this situation, nothing forces them to stay progamers forever, they can just quit and find a stable job. But if you go against the EULA just to make a bit more money, you deserve to be banned like anyone who goes against the EULA and the tournament organizers/teams can decide if they want to keep you or not. Progaming isn't an easy job, and it's not a job where you have guaranteed money; people need to stop acting like everyone should be able to live well from this. You shouldn't be allowed to do this just because you're pro and want money. You should be allowed to do this regardless of your profession if you're able to provide the service to a player willing to pay. Tons of people go against the EULA. None of them get banned for it. I don't know anyone who has ever gotten banned for sharing accounts, which is the particular rule this breaks.
I have told people to try and report me for sharing my account with a friend. They did so, several times. With WoW and sc2. I've never even so much as gotten a warning email that I am doing it. You know why? It doesnt matter if I am admitting it, there is still the potential for me to be lying about it. Blizzard has 0 ways, none at all, to have solid *proof* that I am "illegally" sharing my account with someone.
Therefore, account leveling will not stop as long as there is even the slightest demand for it. As long as there is 1 person in the entire world that is willing to pay, people will advertise their shit.
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On July 16 2012 23:59 ragz_gt wrote:You know... ST_Rainbow have the ads for powerleveling on his Stream for forever...
This is how much pros think it's bad. And how much others think it's bad since it's there for FOREVER and no one gives a damn.
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who cares? that puts $ straight into the pocket of pro-gamers and it increases the value of the overall game for that individual. As long as someone is infact playing on the new account ( and not cheating ) I see no problem. The game is *cough* dying *cough* and its not because of stuff like this. Sc2 UI in general is just very underwhelming. Add in massive bnet 2.0 problems, and new games coming out its only expected.
No cheats?No care I have played so many people that are smurfing... Stuck in high masters for seasons because of smurfs lol
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The only meaningful ladder abuse is hacking and throwing games to abuse newbies. Getting abused UPWARDS doesnt matter, as when Naama is on the account the accounts mmr will jump up accurately showing his skill; its not as if naama is spending his time raping bad players and hurting the authenticity of the ladder. When the deal is over the account will either bomb quickly to its proper place or not be used. At most we have a "wasted" GM slot, which also does not matter. Leagues are just an offhand way to tell your MMR, they dont genuinely matter. If OP cares so much about GM he should be off practicing to get it, so that he can have his epenis grow as this [supposed] cheat IMMVP is doing.
On a side note, someone accused IMMVP of being a hacker like two weeks ago in the hack thread, and his rationalization was the difference in skill between team games and non team games, its possible that the OP is the same guy and just inexplicably hates this IMMVP guy for whatever reason.
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On July 17 2012 03:15 ishyishy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:11 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 03:07 PatouPower wrote: I read many posts in this thread, and a lot of them talk about how some pros aren't paid very much, so they need to resort to this... That's simply not a good reason. If I'd be paid 10$/hour, I'd consider myself pretty poor, but I would not go around and shoplift because I need more money. I would not steal a bank either. If some progamers aren't paid enough, then maybe they are not good enough yet or haven't proven themselves yet.
If they are not happy with this situation, nothing forces them to stay progamers forever, they can just quit and find a stable job. But if you go against the EULA just to make a bit more money, you deserve to be banned like anyone who goes against the EULA and the tournament organizers/teams can decide if they want to keep you or not. Progaming isn't an easy job, and it's not a job where you have guaranteed money; people need to stop acting like everyone should be able to live well from this. You shouldn't be allowed to do this just because you're pro and want money. You should be allowed to do this regardless of your profession if you're able to provide the service to a player willing to pay. Tons of people go against the EULA. None of them get banned for it. I don't know anyone who has ever gotten banned for sharing accounts, which is the particular rule this breaks. I have told people to try and report me for sharing my account with a friend. They did so, several times. With WoW and sc2. I've never even so much as gotten a warning email that I am doing it. You know why? It doesnt matter if I am admitting it, there is still the potential for me to be lying about it. Blizzard has 0 ways, none at all, to have solid *proof* that I am "illegally" sharing my account with someone. Therefore, account leveling will not stop as long as there is even the slightest demand for it. As long as there is 1 person in the entire world that is willing to pay, people will advertise their shit.
Well, they can just check your account and see that multiple IP's logged into it. Despite that they still won't ban it though, or are extremely unlikely. I've only heard stories of accounts being banned in WoW for sharing, but yeah, never actually seen it happen. It's just an unrealistic rule to enforce.
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I doubt this is really hurting anyone lol
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On July 17 2012 03:20 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:15 ishyishy wrote:On July 17 2012 03:11 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 03:07 PatouPower wrote: I read many posts in this thread, and a lot of them talk about how some pros aren't paid very much, so they need to resort to this... That's simply not a good reason. If I'd be paid 10$/hour, I'd consider myself pretty poor, but I would not go around and shoplift because I need more money. I would not steal a bank either. If some progamers aren't paid enough, then maybe they are not good enough yet or haven't proven themselves yet.
If they are not happy with this situation, nothing forces them to stay progamers forever, they can just quit and find a stable job. But if you go against the EULA just to make a bit more money, you deserve to be banned like anyone who goes against the EULA and the tournament organizers/teams can decide if they want to keep you or not. Progaming isn't an easy job, and it's not a job where you have guaranteed money; people need to stop acting like everyone should be able to live well from this. You shouldn't be allowed to do this just because you're pro and want money. You should be allowed to do this regardless of your profession if you're able to provide the service to a player willing to pay. Tons of people go against the EULA. None of them get banned for it. I don't know anyone who has ever gotten banned for sharing accounts, which is the particular rule this breaks. I have told people to try and report me for sharing my account with a friend. They did so, several times. With WoW and sc2. I've never even so much as gotten a warning email that I am doing it. You know why? It doesnt matter if I am admitting it, there is still the potential for me to be lying about it. Blizzard has 0 ways, none at all, to have solid *proof* that I am "illegally" sharing my account with someone. Therefore, account leveling will not stop as long as there is even the slightest demand for it. As long as there is 1 person in the entire world that is willing to pay, people will advertise their shit. Well, they can just check your account and see that multiple IP's logged into it. Despite that they still won't ban it though, or are extremely unlikely. I've only heard stories of accounts being banned in WoW for sharing, but yeah, never actually seen it happen. It's just an unrealistic rule to enforce.
Playing on multiple IP's doesnt matter. Why? (if there is a way, I dont know it) Accounts can only be logged into by 1 source at a time. 5 people cant play on my account at once. Only 1 person gets to play the game at once.
Also, I bring my authenticator everywhere. I have it on my car keys ring. I can play blizzard games on any PC that they are installed on. How does that prove that I am account sharing? I dont play there anymore, but I used to play at a pc cafe with a few people. If blizzard banned for multiple IP's accessing the same account, half the accounts worldwide would be banned lol.
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So funny the ppl on TL. Reminds me why hypocrites are abundant.
OMG.. they steals me ladder points. Why can they use maphack and production hack? QQQ... Ladder is so important. If not for cheaters and hackers, I will not be stuck in gold league and now diamond.. QQQQ
OMG... thread about pros leveling accounts? Fuck that,, since I like the pros.. you know like dragon, naama etc. They can do no wrong as they are up in my holy pedestal. How is it wrong to abuse ladder? Ladder is not important. Who cares about ladder? Idiot threads.. GM is joke anyways. QQQQQ
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On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote: - It's against the EULA.
No.
The closest you can get is 2. C. + Show Spoiler +Exploit the Game or any of its parts for any commercial purpose without Blizzard’s express permission, with the sole exception that you may use the Game, or copies of the Game, on the Service at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location based site And that's ridiculous if you were to argue that. That means every single stream, whether it be major tournaments or hell, you can even argue team liquid as a site, would be in the wrong if you were to argue selling account leveling is against the EULA.
And to be honest - your overall tone in your post... it basically sounds like you are jelly you aren't making that money. Seriously.
On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM.
1. The amount of 'leveled accounts' in GM is undetermined. It's all heresay. How you can think GM is littered is beyond me. Out of the 200, I can't see anyone arguing it would be more than 5%. Wouldn't that make GM even more prestigious, or in your logic, you would get more 'recognition'.
2. Lol @ hurting people. Semi-pros aren't being held back because of the incredibly small amount of 'fake' accounts.
3. Recognition? The only recognition would be from low-level players like you and I. Teams don't accept you based on your ladder status. Pros do not say "oh, he is GM, he must be good." LMAO. Oh boy...
On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: Ok, now my guts hurt. I'm in hysterics over this one. Are you serious?? Let me explain to you target advertisement. You advertise on websites that know people are spending money, not because "oh, they are hackers, so this is a good place to sell leveling." What kind of logic is : They already spent $60 on a game so they can hack, so OBVIOUSLY they will shell out even more money for something completely irrelevant to hacking. WAT.!!1
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It should be considered ban worthy i think.. many newcomer players show themselves in tourneys or entering GM. That will reduce their chances of being noticed.
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On July 17 2012 03:36 lazyitachi wrote: So funny the ppl on TL. Reminds me why hypocrites are abundant.
OMG.. they steals me ladder points. Why can they use maphack and production hack? QQQ... Ladder is so important. If not for cheaters and hackers, I will not be stuck in gold league and now diamond.. QQQQ
OMG... thread about pros leveling accounts? Fuck that,, since I like the pros.. you know like dragon, naama etc. They can do no wrong as they are up in my holy pedestal. How is it wrong to abuse ladder? Ladder is not important. Who cares about ladder? Idiot threads.. GM is joke anyways. QQQQQ
Against bot/map hack you are playing non-human skills not representative of your opponent and there is not fair.
Pro boosting is still human player, playing human skill, and is representative of your opponent (who is a pro player, instead of account owner) and there is nothing unfair about the match up itself, just not who you think you are fighting (no different from playing against a smurf).
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iirc, sharing an account on iccup was a bannable offense. my clan had a few practice accounts that some of us would smurf on, and i think they got banned.
isn't this basically faking your work? like getting one of those online services to write an essay for you?
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On July 17 2012 03:44 eksert wrote: It should be considered ban worthy i think.. many newcomer players show themselves in tourneys or entering GM. That will reduce their chances of being noticed.
If you think it's a good reason to ban Startale_Rainbow, well, good luck to you.
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i can bring your account up to high diamond if you want, im pretty good. btw this is rediculous.
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i loled. this is so pointless, unlike selling rating/gear in wow. as a former top tier arena player in wow alot of us sold teams and rating before blizzard gimped it. bunch of us sold accounts also when we quit playing. sure its against the rules but who doesnt like money.
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If GM worked properly (ie: actually required lots of wins and a good ratio to stay in), this problem wouldn't exist.
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I can't believe people think this is okay. Progamers are taking advantage of stupid kids with money, and stupid kids with money can potentially scam other stupid kids with money by offering coaching under the guise of being a GM player. Putting all of that aside, most people's excuse for this being okay is that progamers don't get paid enough??? Seriously, there are lots of people who don't get paid enough and since when was doing something immoral for extra pay a good thing? It may not effect 99.99% of the SC2 population, for the 1 or 5 people who couldn't get into GM because pros have 5 accounts on there, or for the stupid kids who got scammed getting coaching from a fake GM, it matters.
Also, maybe instead of wasting time leveling accounts pros should practice more so they can make more money from actually winning tournaments. Sorry, but for Code A / S level players levelling an account to GM is not practice, its a sad waste of time.
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On July 16 2012 16:32 VPCursed wrote: Pro's need $ and in e-sports their isn't enough going around unless you're a top contender in tourneys.. hell.. i've seen forgg stream him self account leveling and chat with the person he was doing it for... Don't think its that bad of a thing tbh
I agree; if you're trying to break into Grandmaster, and you have all of these extra accounts in your way, shouldn't you be able to break in anyway?
I guess you're saying you'll have your spot "taken" by an "empty" account, but when you play the "empty" account, it'll be against a pro, or the easiest win of your life, and you'll be that much closer to promotion or getting better.
Still a win/win if you don't worry too much about it
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On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. Because the SATs are actually tied to you. As in you need ID from a government or your school to verify your identity. Starcraft does not require this.
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if blizzard system wasn't so bad, this wouldn't be an issue. LiquidRet was #1 master.. gm comes out and he wasn't on so he didn't get in. Only way to get out of gm is have 150+ bonus Blizzard is the joke, not people paying for leveling.
edit~ and people getting gm with 0-1 record LOL!
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means absolutely fuck all... people who care are the same delusional idiots who would pay for the service in the first place. If you can't beat the guys who are leveling accounts, you can't win a fucking tourny. Don't treat ladder as a status symbol treat it as a means to get yourself to where you want to be on a personal level.
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On July 17 2012 04:29 Xyik wrote: I can't believe people think this is okay. Progamers are taking advantage of stupid kids with money, and stupid kids with money can potentially scam other stupid kids with money by offering coaching under the guise of being a GM player.
No offense to them, but if they are ill-informed in how the world works it is their fault anyway.
I don't agree that it's right, but I also think this discussion is ineffective as there is nothing Blizzard can do unless the person promotes it. And even that will lead nowhere. Blizzard should look into the map hackers more than this anyway, since that really disrupts gameplay even more than this topic does.
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To be honest I find it much more disturbing and unfair that people are in GM just by 6pooling :D
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Unfortunately, you can get a really high MMR and coast by in GM for awhile just losing 1 game every 2 weeks. I know my MMR had me playing high masters ( I was high masters when I took a break ) ppl for the like 6 months even though I barely ever played the game and lost almost every game that I did happen to play. So I don't find it unlikely you could have maybe 5% to 20% of GM being taken up by these kinds of accounts which is unfortunate but, really unavoidable. Stupid kids with parents money exist in every online game, you have the same self-entitled undeserving brats running around in every MMO pretending to be badasses in someone else's accomplishments.
Also, people making money off kids with parents money is like a staple of the US economy at least. Just look at all of our marketing, for christ's sake bathroom cleaning products are even marketed to children. Because their the easiest target market in the world to sway into wasting money. So this shouldn't be anything new for most of us ( not sure about the EU but I bet it's the same there ).
At any rate I think any intelligent person learns sooner or later that it's about the journey, not the destination. If kids want to buy meaningless ladder pts and then go brag about their GM accounts in stream chats while eating more Cheetos and drinking more Dr. Pepper .. let them. Sooner or later they might realize how much time they wasted, or not. Who cares?
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On July 17 2012 04:51 Synk wrote: Unfortunately, you can get a really high MMR and coast by in GM for awhile just losing 1 game every 2 weeks. I know my MMR had me playing high masters ( I was high masters when I took a break ) ppl for the like 6 months even though I barely ever played the game and lost almost every game that I did happen to play. So I don't find it unlikely you could have maybe 5% to 20% of GM being taken up by these kinds of accounts which is unfortunate but, really unavoidable. Stupid kids with parents money exist in every online game, you have the same self-entitled undeserving brats running around in every MMO pretending to be badasses in someone else's accomplishments.
Also, people making money off kids with parents money is like a staple of the US economy at least. Just look at all of our marketing, for christ's sake bathroom cleaning products are even marketed to children. Because their the easiest target market in the world to sway into wasting money. So this shouldn't be anything new for most of us ( not sure about the EU but I bet it's the same there ).
At any rate I think any intelligent person learns sooner or later that it's about the journey, not the destination. If kids want to buy meaningless ladder pts and then go brag about their GM accounts in stream chats while eating more Cheetos and drinking more Dr. Pepper .. let them. Sooner or later they might realize how much time they wasted, or not. Who cares? You know you get kicked out when you have to much bonus pool right?
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United States12180 Posts
On July 17 2012 03:47 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:44 eksert wrote: It should be considered ban worthy i think.. many newcomer players show themselves in tourneys or entering GM. That will reduce their chances of being noticed. If you think it's a good reason to ban Startale_Rainbow, well, good luck to you.
I'd definitely push for such a ban, and I say this as someone who watched his stream more frequently than any other featured stream on TL. Rainbow is one of my favorite players.
Lots of people have issue with the ladder because it's so obfuscated, and lots of people (high-level players in particular) hate GM because it's essentially a snapshot rather than a constantly-updated definitive list of the top 200 players in a region. That doesn't mean that GM has no merit to most players, because the non-GM players look to GM as their next progression point or as a list of players to track. Players in GM league commonly wear that as a badge of honor. GM is not intended to be the same as an up-to-date "200 best" list, instead it's designed to showcase notable players for a season (and the seasons are pretty short anyway). It seems to fit that role with how often players are chatting about who's new in GM. GM does mean something in that regard, as it should.
Players who are not only boosting other people's accounts but profiting off them ruin the integrity of the most prominent league in the game. The "free market" argument doesn't apply here because there is actual system manipulation practiced. It's one thing to offer training or coaching, quite another to actively cheat via account sharing (which is also prohibited by the way).
There's another issue with GM related to the limited number of slots, and that's using multiple accounts. I've seen quite a few examples of players looking to get all 2/3/4/5 (or however many they have) of their accounts in GM. That can't really be policed effectively (every enforcement method has a workaround), but is also not as detrimental because those accounts aren't getting in under false pretenses. When this happens, instead of 200 unique players it's more like 100 unique players, which just means the people who would be #101-200 need to play that much better to break into GM the next time. That's not as big a deal.
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On July 17 2012 04:55 Roxor9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 04:51 Synk wrote: Unfortunately, you can get a really high MMR and coast by in GM for awhile just losing 1 game every 2 weeks. I know my MMR had me playing high masters ( I was high masters when I took a break ) ppl for the like 6 months even though I barely ever played the game and lost almost every game that I did happen to play. So I don't find it unlikely you could have maybe 5% to 20% of GM being taken up by these kinds of accounts which is unfortunate but, really unavoidable. Stupid kids with parents money exist in every online game, you have the same self-entitled undeserving brats running around in every MMO pretending to be badasses in someone else's accomplishments.
Also, people making money off kids with parents money is like a staple of the US economy at least. Just look at all of our marketing, for christ's sake bathroom cleaning products are even marketed to children. Because their the easiest target market in the world to sway into wasting money. So this shouldn't be anything new for most of us ( not sure about the EU but I bet it's the same there ).
At any rate I think any intelligent person learns sooner or later that it's about the journey, not the destination. If kids want to buy meaningless ladder pts and then go brag about their GM accounts in stream chats while eating more Cheetos and drinking more Dr. Pepper .. let them. Sooner or later they might realize how much time they wasted, or not. Who cares? You know you get kicked out when you have to much bonus pool right?
If they lose enough they can end up playing kids within their actual MMR range (say Gold league plays) and retain a relatively low bonus pool without dropping out of GM.
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On July 17 2012 04:57 Payson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 04:55 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 04:51 Synk wrote: Unfortunately, you can get a really high MMR and coast by in GM for awhile just losing 1 game every 2 weeks. I know my MMR had me playing high masters ( I was high masters when I took a break ) ppl for the like 6 months even though I barely ever played the game and lost almost every game that I did happen to play. So I don't find it unlikely you could have maybe 5% to 20% of GM being taken up by these kinds of accounts which is unfortunate but, really unavoidable. Stupid kids with parents money exist in every online game, you have the same self-entitled undeserving brats running around in every MMO pretending to be badasses in someone else's accomplishments.
Also, people making money off kids with parents money is like a staple of the US economy at least. Just look at all of our marketing, for christ's sake bathroom cleaning products are even marketed to children. Because their the easiest target market in the world to sway into wasting money. So this shouldn't be anything new for most of us ( not sure about the EU but I bet it's the same there ).
At any rate I think any intelligent person learns sooner or later that it's about the journey, not the destination. If kids want to buy meaningless ladder pts and then go brag about their GM accounts in stream chats while eating more Cheetos and drinking more Dr. Pepper .. let them. Sooner or later they might realize how much time they wasted, or not. Who cares? You know you get kicked out when you have to much bonus pool right? If they lose enough they can end up playing kids within their actual MMR range (say Gold league plays) and retain a relatively low bonus pool without dropping out of GM.
but everyone knows those kind of players actually don't belong in GM... people stop acting like GM means nothing etc just because of this. This is a very rare exception
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Honestly though, looking into everything that's gone down so far... Who gives a shit if progamers are making a bit of cash off idiots? We should support it, they probably couldn't support themselves if these "loop"holes into progaming weren't there, so we either all start flooding cash into eSports or shut up about it.
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This is the exact same thing as HuK getting top 5 on NA with Sad and Depression, and then Bomber getting into KR GM doing the same with his main and Ares, and then MKP with 베스킨라빈스 and his bar-code account.
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You know you get kicked out when you have to much bonus pool right?
I thought it was just a game every 2 weeks, maybe I'm mistaken? But it doesn't really matter does it, you still end up with a ton of un-earned masters league accounts, almost indefinitely. Since I know from experience it takes like 30+ loses to get demoted from a High masters MMR. I know less people care about illegitimate Masters accounts but it's still not right. But again, I don't really think it's preventable I just acknowledge that it's wrong and move on with my day. Maybe one day some game maker will find a cost effective way of shutting it down, I don't really care that much.
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On July 17 2012 05:00 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 04:57 Payson wrote:On July 17 2012 04:55 Roxor9999 wrote:On July 17 2012 04:51 Synk wrote: Unfortunately, you can get a really high MMR and coast by in GM for awhile just losing 1 game every 2 weeks. I know my MMR had me playing high masters ( I was high masters when I took a break ) ppl for the like 6 months even though I barely ever played the game and lost almost every game that I did happen to play. So I don't find it unlikely you could have maybe 5% to 20% of GM being taken up by these kinds of accounts which is unfortunate but, really unavoidable. Stupid kids with parents money exist in every online game, you have the same self-entitled undeserving brats running around in every MMO pretending to be badasses in someone else's accomplishments.
Also, people making money off kids with parents money is like a staple of the US economy at least. Just look at all of our marketing, for christ's sake bathroom cleaning products are even marketed to children. Because their the easiest target market in the world to sway into wasting money. So this shouldn't be anything new for most of us ( not sure about the EU but I bet it's the same there ).
At any rate I think any intelligent person learns sooner or later that it's about the journey, not the destination. If kids want to buy meaningless ladder pts and then go brag about their GM accounts in stream chats while eating more Cheetos and drinking more Dr. Pepper .. let them. Sooner or later they might realize how much time they wasted, or not. Who cares? You know you get kicked out when you have to much bonus pool right? If they lose enough they can end up playing kids within their actual MMR range (say Gold league plays) and retain a relatively low bonus pool without dropping out of GM. but everyone knows those kind of players actually don't belong in GM... people stop acting like GM means nothing etc just because of this. This is a very rare exception
Where anywhere did I throw out there that GM means nothing? I simply stated that if you lose enough games in GM, you can play players similar to your MMR rating and keep the bonus pool low, therefore, not being kicked out of GM.
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On July 16 2012 16:57 Ketch wrote: What the hell? People think progamers need the money? They are cheating the ladder, that's what it is. Cannot fathom why people would say this is acceptable. Invites to various tournaments/qualifiers are based on the ladder ranking, so it better mean something... :/ Correct me if i'm wrong but most qualifiers are open and the only one in recent memory that were even slightly based off ladder ranking were the WCS. Also yes progamers need money, if progaming isn't even slightly profitable Starcraft 2 tournaments will cease to exist. Also they are not cheating in anyway, they are simply using their own skill to level an account. The amount of stupidity in this post is the only thing i cannot fathom.
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On July 17 2012 05:03 PlacidPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:57 Ketch wrote: What the hell? People think progamers need the money? They are cheating the ladder, that's what it is. Cannot fathom why people would say this is acceptable. Invites to various tournaments/qualifiers are based on the ladder ranking, so it better mean something... :/ Correct me if i'm wrong but most qualifiers are open and the only one in recent memory that were even slightly based off ladder ranking were the WCS. Also yes progamers need money, if progaming isn't even slightly profitable Starcraft 2 tournaments will cease to exist. Also they are not cheating in anyway, they are simply using their own skill to level an account. The amount of stupidity in this post is the only thing i cannot fathom.
Um, the extra cash they get from leveling accounts isn't going to sustain progaming either. It's a sorry excuse to say its okay to level other peoples accounts.
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On July 16 2012 19:32 dudesrslywtf wrote: "The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites."
I feel like this needs some clarification. I've never been to a hacking site so I don't know how it works. Are these ads from pro-gamers posts in a forum or are they paid advertising banners or what? I think it's a huge problem if pro-gamers are providing financial support to the very same people who are ruining this game. On the flip side, even if they are just free ads or forum posts or something, I find the fact that pro-gamers are willing to grace these sites with their presence shows a disturbing affiliation between them that makes me uncomfortable.
Since no-one responded to my post, I decided to google for these "hacking sites" to see for myself what was going on on them. I have to admit I was shocked and disappointed by what I found.
I only browsed the first site that popped up in the search results. The site was basically just a big forum with a ton of ad banners all over it. At first I just hit refresh over and over to see if pro-gamers were buying ad banners, but I didn't notice any. However, every forum thread has multiple ad banners automatically inserted into them, chosen at random. I found threads advertising SC2 account levelling services and they were littered with ad banners. What this means is that every pro-gamer or organization that advertises account levelling (or any service for that matter) at these forums is helping to generate ad revenue that supports a network of hackers who's only aim is to destroy this game. Honestly it's no wonder some of these pro-gamers are unwilling to disclose their identity directly in the ad for their service... they could and probably should lose their career over something like this.
I'll admit that I think account levelling is unethical and ruins the environment of fair play that Blizzard is trying to create, but at the same time I can understand the reasoning for most of the counter arguments that have been brought up in this thread (even if I disagree with them). But I don't see how there can be any debate over the fact that these pro-gamers are helping a network of hackers generate the financial support it needs to keep their website going and the hacks coming. Such a shame.
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On July 17 2012 03:41 MrRicewife wrote:No. The closest you can get is 2. C. + Show Spoiler +Exploit the Game or any of its parts for any commercial purpose without Blizzard’s express permission, with the sole exception that you may use the Game, or copies of the Game, on the Service at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location based site And that's ridiculous if you were to argue that. That means every single stream, whether it be major tournaments or hell, you can even argue team liquid as a site, would be in the wrong if you were to argue selling account leveling is against the EULA. And to be honest - your overall tone in your post... it basically sounds like you are jelly you aren't making that money. Seriously. Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. 1. The amount of 'leveled accounts' in GM is undetermined. It's all heresay. How you can think GM is littered is beyond me. Out of the 200, I can't see anyone arguing it would be more than 5%. Wouldn't that make GM even more prestigious, or in your logic, you would get more 'recognition'. 2. Lol @ hurting people. Semi-pros aren't being held back because of the incredibly small amount of 'fake' accounts. 3. Recognition? The only recognition would be from low-level players like you and I. Teams don't accept you based on your ladder status. Pros do not say "oh, he is GM, he must be good." LMAO. Oh boy... Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: Ok, now my guts hurt. I'm in hysterics over this one. Are you serious?? Let me explain to you target advertisement. You advertise on websites that know people are spending money, not because "oh, they are hackers, so this is a good place to sell leveling." What kind of logic is : They already spent $60 on a game so they can hack, so OBVIOUSLY they will shell out even more money for something completely irrelevant to hacking. WAT.!!1
Um yes, teams do have ladder rank cut-offs for entry. These are the aspiring semi-pro teams some of which may even provide gear or tourney entry fees etc. And yes it's against the EULA, similar to power leveling in WoW, and general account sharing in SC2. This is common knowledge. Your mocking tone is quite ironic given how uninformed your post is.
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On July 17 2012 04:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:47 ragz_gt wrote:On July 17 2012 03:44 eksert wrote: It should be considered ban worthy i think.. many newcomer players show themselves in tourneys or entering GM. That will reduce their chances of being noticed. If you think it's a good reason to ban Startale_Rainbow, well, good luck to you. I'd definitely push for such a ban, and I say this as someone who watched his stream more frequently than any other featured stream on TL. Rainbow is one of my favorite players. Lots of people have issue with the ladder because it's so obfuscated, and lots of people (high-level players in particular) hate GM because it's essentially a snapshot rather than a constantly-updated definitive list of the top 200 players in a region. That doesn't mean that GM has no merit to most players, because the non-GM players look to GM as their next progression point or as a list of players to track. Players in GM league commonly wear that as a badge of honor. GM is not intended to be the same as an up-to-date "200 best" list, instead it's designed to showcase notable players for a season (and the seasons are pretty short anyway). It seems to fit that role with how often players are chatting about who's new in GM. GM does mean something in that regard, as it should. Players who are not only boosting other people's accounts but profiting off them ruin the integrity of the most prominent league in the game. The "free market" argument doesn't apply here because there is actual system manipulation practiced. It's one thing to offer training or coaching, quite another to actively cheat via account sharing (which is also prohibited by the way). There's another issue with GM related to the limited number of slots, and that's using multiple accounts. I've seen quite a few examples of players looking to get all 2/3/4/5 (or however many they have) of their accounts in GM. That can't really be policed effectively (every enforcement method has a workaround), but is also not as detrimental because those accounts aren't getting in under false pretenses. When this happens, instead of 200 unique players it's more like 100 unique players, which just means the people who would be #101-200 need to play that much better to break into GM the next time. That's not as big a deal.
Definitely agree with you here I also find Blizzard's inconsistency to be rather irritating. They seem to have a problem with certain people sharing accounts (namely Huk and TLO) and issue warnings accordingly, but can't crack down on the account-sharing issue elsewhere.
I don't mean to bash on Blizzard, but some consistency with dealing with an issue like this would be nice. I personally don't care about account sharing, but I definitely don't agree with it either.
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"It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players." I use to think like that, few months ago. but honestly if u keep improving and say by chance u pass that one booster player that has like 5 account ur gonna jump 5 ranks ahead, instead of one. so just keep getting better i guess
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On July 17 2012 04:42 GoSh4rks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. Because the SATs are actually tied to you. As in you need ID from a government or your school to verify your identity. Starcraft does not require this. I disagree. It's actually very easy to cheat on SAT's, almost too easy in fact I've personally been offered to take someone's SAT multiple times for money with the promise of a fake ID; its not very difficult
Also, the point isnt about HOW you cheat; its the fact that its still a form of cheating, and the same idea of "I want someone to do this for me so that I can get something I normally wouldnt be able to get". That's the parallel he's trying to make
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This wouldn't be such a problem if the ladder was based on ELO. Due to inflation you would have to keep playing to stay in the top 200. Blizzard's ladder system is really terrible, almost as bad as True Skill.
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I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten.
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This is really interesting, I never realized that this was occurring. Really good research by OP. I think it definitely needs stopped.
inafter elmo flames me
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nothing blizzard will do to stop it.... seriously this thread is as pointless as imbalance threads... -_-
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On July 17 2012 04:56 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:47 ragz_gt wrote:On July 17 2012 03:44 eksert wrote: It should be considered ban worthy i think.. many newcomer players show themselves in tourneys or entering GM. That will reduce their chances of being noticed. If you think it's a good reason to ban Startale_Rainbow, well, good luck to you. I'd definitely push for such a ban, and I say this as someone who watched his stream more frequently than any other featured stream on TL. Rainbow is one of my favorite players. Lots of people have issue with the ladder because it's so obfuscated, and lots of people (high-level players in particular) hate GM because it's essentially a snapshot rather than a constantly-updated definitive list of the top 200 players in a region. That doesn't mean that GM has no merit to most players, because the non-GM players look to GM as their next progression point or as a list of players to track. Players in GM league commonly wear that as a badge of honor. GM is not intended to be the same as an up-to-date "200 best" list, instead it's designed to showcase notable players for a season (and the seasons are pretty short anyway). It seems to fit that role with how often players are chatting about who's new in GM. GM does mean something in that regard, as it should. Players who are not only boosting other people's accounts but profiting off them ruin the integrity of the most prominent league in the game. The "free market" argument doesn't apply here because there is actual system manipulation practiced. It's one thing to offer training or coaching, quite another to actively cheat via account sharing (which is also prohibited by the way). There's another issue with GM related to the limited number of slots, and that's using multiple accounts. I've seen quite a few examples of players looking to get all 2/3/4/5 (or however many they have) of their accounts in GM. That can't really be policed effectively (every enforcement method has a workaround), but is also not as detrimental because those accounts aren't getting in under false pretenses. When this happens, instead of 200 unique players it's more like 100 unique players, which just means the people who would be #101-200 need to play that much better to break into GM the next time. That's not as big a deal.
I challenge you to look at Korean GM and then keep talking about "the integrity of the most prominent league in the game" with a straight face. I mean, come on.
Also, the ban on account sharing is nonsensical in the first place - pointless and impossible to enforce.
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It's probably been said a lot already, but... Who cares. If your MMR is high enough, does it matter what league you're in? no, exactly, if you have top MMR, you can be in bronze during ladder lockdown and still play vs GM.
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On July 17 2012 05:36 OFCORPSE wrote: It's probably been said a lot already, but... Who cares. If your MMR is high enough, does it matter what league you're in? no, exactly, if you have top MMR, you can be in bronze during ladder lockdown and still play vs GM.
I dont actually understand your point, and i bet you dont understand either.
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Don't take the ladder so seriously. If tournaments need you to have a certain ladder rank to enter, ignore the tournament for using such a blatantly exploitable system.
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This is a non-issue imo.
The only thing being hurt here are the wallets of the ones paying for the leveling.
Aspiring pros are hurt because they can't make it into GM? Are you serious? GM is flawed in itself as has been brought up MANY times, even by the pros. Everyone (good) also knows that once you make it into masters, rank means absolute shit. The only true deciding factor of skill once you make it there, is who you beat and how well you play. THAT is how you will get noticed. THAT is how you will get on a fucking team. Not by being in GM. Yes, teams do have cutoffs for applications, but they are usually set at masters.
As for the claims that it supports the hacking community... no, you're wrong. Hackers and potential hackers who frequent the websites and purchase the actual hack, they support the hacking community. The traffic alone probably pays for the website and everything else is profit. Something like this would go directly in their pocket (if the hackers are the ones even facilitating this) and have no real effects on the actual hacking community.
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On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote: This is a non-issue imo.
The only thing being hurt here are the wallets of the ones paying for the leveling.
Aspiring pros are hurt because they can't make it into GM? Are you serious? GM is flawed in itself as has been brought up MANY times, even by the pros. Everyone (good) also knows that once you make it into masters, rank means absolute shit. The only true deciding factor of skill once you make it there, is who you beat and how well you play. THAT is how you will get noticed. THAT is how you will get on a fucking team. Not by being in GM. Yes, teams do have cutoffs for applications, but they are usually set at masters.
As for the claims that it supports the hacking community... no, you're wrong. Hackers and potential hackers who frequent the websites and purchase the actual hack, they support the hacking community. The traffic alone probably pays for the website and everything else is profit. Something like this would go directly in their pocket (if the hackers are the ones even facilitating this) and have no real effects on the actual hacking community.
I agree with most of your post except that I would change it to once you get to top 3 master. Rank isnt that important, but there is a huge huge difference between a low/mid master and a top master/gm player.
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On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote: As for the claims that it supports the hacking community... no, you're wrong. Hackers and potential hackers who frequent the websites and purchase the actual hack, they support the hacking community. The traffic alone probably pays for the website and everything else is profit. Something like this would go directly in their pocket (if the hackers are the ones even facilitating this) and have no real effects on the actual hacking community.
On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:have no real effects on the actual hacking community.
On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:The traffic alone probably pays for the website
Trust me, I considered that the revenue isn't much, but if it helps keep the site online then any revenue at all is too much.
Besides, the very fact that pro-gamers are associating (even anonymously) with this hacking site tells all the hackers on there that these pro-gamers are totally cool with hackers and I'm sure it makes the hackers feel better and more comfortable with what they're doing. It's basically like an endorsement.
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On July 17 2012 05:16 JerKy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 04:42 GoSh4rks wrote:On July 17 2012 01:43 uikos wrote: To those who don't care, let me ask you this: How is this /any/ different from paying someone to take your SATs for you? It's vaguely similar to become a professional gamer. There are many different ways to get exposure in the Starcraft scene, and one of the ways is to work your way to becoming GM. At the very least, it gives local recognition.
Regarding the SAT-analogy: YES, there's a smart kid who probably deserves to have more money. YES, these tests don't really mean much anyways (we all know kids who are extremely brilliant but just didn't score well on the SATs). YES, only idiots would pay for a service like this. YES, these tests are only a fraction of what you need to achieve your goal (in the case of Starcraft: becoming profession. In the case of education: getting into a good college). And YES, a lot of us (college-kids) have thought about tutoring high school kids for quick-money, and we just need to wave our SAT scores around to convince others we're a qualified tutor.
But would you really not mind if this was a common phenomeon? And if you do (and I'll imagine that most of us would mind), how is selling GM accounts that drastically different from offering to take someone else's SAT? Is it ridicious to want a more legitimate Starcraft ladder?
I (obviously) don't know how an ideal GM system would be implemented (with updating, and MMR-decay and whatnot). But that being said, takes one mindset to say "An ideal GM is hard to make," and a completely different mindset to say "Well the GM system is broken anyways, so who the fuck cares?" And I seriously hope that everyone who said they were part of the latter truely meant to say they were part of the former. Because the SATs are actually tied to you. As in you need ID from a government or your school to verify your identity. Starcraft does not require this. I disagree. It's actually very easy to cheat on SAT's, almost too easy in fact I've personally been offered to take someone's SAT multiple times for money with the promise of a fake ID; its not very difficult Also, the point isnt about HOW you cheat; its the fact that its still a form of cheating, and the same idea of "I want someone to do this for me so that I can get something I normally wouldnt be able to get". That's the parallel he's trying to make If that is what you want to define it as, then everybody is cheating when they purchase/acquire SC2. Think about that.
Your personal experience has nothing to do with this conversation, however the point is that you need a FAKE ID to even begin. Thats the difference between the SATs and SC2: there are regulations and preventative measures in place to ensure the integrity of the SAT. Nobody of importance actually gives a shit about this SC2/GM "cheating."
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Actually does this mean that if I troll people in bronze on my friends account, I could get banned? Wow...
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On July 17 2012 05:55 dudesrslywtf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote: As for the claims that it supports the hacking community... no, you're wrong. Hackers and potential hackers who frequent the websites and purchase the actual hack, they support the hacking community. The traffic alone probably pays for the website and everything else is profit. Something like this would go directly in their pocket (if the hackers are the ones even facilitating this) and have no real effects on the actual hacking community. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:have no real effects on the actual hacking community. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:The traffic alone probably pays for the website Trust me, I considered that the revenue isn't much, but if it helps keep the site online then any revenue at all is too much. Besides, the very fact that pro-gamers are associating (even anonymously) with this hacking site tells all the hackers on there that these pro-gamers are totally cool with hackers and I'm sure it makes the hackers feel better and more comfortable with what they're doing. It's basically like an endorsement. Hackers really don't care who "endorses" them or even if people are "cool" with them. It's an ego thing. Hackers hack because they can, they couldn't give two fucks what you think about them. Even if they weren't making insane profits, they'd still do it even if just for themselves.
It doesn't "help" pay for the website. It's ALL profit if you factor in their potential revenue from traffic alone. Hell, even if you remove the traffic revenue, TWO hack purchases pays for an entire year of hosting... just two...
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I don't think this matters at all.
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Ladder is very serious business...
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This doesn`t bring any negative experience to me when I ladder compared to if I was facing a hacker. Don`t care.
Yes it may be against the rules but at the same time I can`t see why anyone could really complain about this. Being GM isn`t really recognition these days IMO.
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On July 17 2012 06:05 Dosey wrote:Hackers really don't care who "endorses" them or even if people are "cool" with them. It's an ego thing. Hackers hack because they can, they couldn't give two fucks what you think about them. Even if they weren't making insane profits, they'd still do it even if just for themselves.
By "hackers" I meant the people downloading and using the hacks, not the people making them. I apologize, my wording was unclear. I'm sure the people making the hacks don't give a crap about what they're doing (I read the forum's TOS which states that they believe they are making game "enhancements"), but the people who download the hacks (who make up probably the vast majority of that community) are the ones I think are going to be influenced by this.
On July 17 2012 06:05 Dosey wrote:It doesn't "help" pay for the website. It's ALL profit if you factor in their potential revenue from traffic alone. Hell, even if you remove the traffic revenue, TWO hack purchases pays for an entire year of hosting... just two...
I considered that any post on that site generates them revenue. I would be equally appalled if say HuK registered an account there and started spamming up those forums with a bunch of posts of just him making chit-chat, because even those seemingly-harmless posts are still generating money that keeps that site going and supports their community. I don't know about you, but I would prefer for these hack-makers to pay to keep their stupid website online out of their own pocket rather than relying on ad-revenue that is generated by, among other things, pro-gamers advertising their services on those forums.
Edit: Some further consideration that supports the point I'm making- From what I've seen on that website, I couldn't find anything but anonymous pro-gamers offering their level-boosting service, but yet numerous pro-gamers seem to be very comfortable advertising their name along with their boosting services at basically any other venue. Why do you suppose this is? This tells me that they don't want to risk losing their spot on their team by being exposed as having a connection to the hacking community.
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On July 17 2012 06:32 dudesrslywtf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 06:05 Dosey wrote:Hackers really don't care who "endorses" them or even if people are "cool" with them. It's an ego thing. Hackers hack because they can, they couldn't give two fucks what you think about them. Even if they weren't making insane profits, they'd still do it even if just for themselves. By "hackers" I meant the people downloading and using the hacks, not the people making them. I apologize, my wording was unclear. I'm sure the people making the hacks don't give a crap about what they're doing (I read the forum's TOS which states that they believe they are making game "enhancements"), but the people who download the hacks (who make up probably the vast majority of that community) are the ones I think are going to be influenced by this. It's all anonymous though. For all they know, it's another hacker leveling accounts as it is very common for the "better" hackers to do so anyway. It's righteous threads like these that bring to light who actually does the leveling. If it weren't for OP, the hackers would be rather clueless on the matter.
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Honestly your only argument here is that its against the EULA. Its the person who paid for its account, so let him/her risk being banned if he/she wants to take that risk.
Every other statement is personal bias or complete speculation.
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This goes back to what Browder said @ NASL Finals in his interview: PRO GAMERS AREN'T MAKING ENOUGH $$.
Once professional and semi-professional gamers make enough $ and have a stable source of income, many of these problems (Like Savior match-setting) will disappear or become much less frequent. Personally, I see no problem with account leveling -- the points you bring up about people breaking into GM don't really matter since grandmaster league doesn't mean anything -- on any given day the bottom 100 players in GM don't even belong there MMR wise -- Masters players have overtaken them. In order for the average high masters player to break into GM he/she has to play the day it comes out, if the league fills up you will have to be the #1 ranked player in Masters league in order to be moved into it. This defeats your point of the average high masters player attempting to get into GM -- simply put, they won't either way.
Addressing your point about account sharing being against the EULA -- Blizzard usually doesn't even act on infringements. Before their announcement of a mass ban, how many hackers were playing on the NA ladder (Hell, there are STILL many hackers playing on it today). Since blizzard seems to just not care enough to enforce all of its rules, there's no real punishment or way of proof to convict people of account sharing.
I don't really understand your third point. You state that the main source of customers are hackers -- what is your proof? Even so, proof aside, let's look at your statement: "These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling." -- What? What is your point? What harm does this do besides the fact that they fact?
"The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it." -- What is wrong with coaching? I don't understand. If anything, this may HELP the situation of pro gamers not making nearly enough $$. Sounds like a very convenient and beneficial combination to BOTH parties -- The pros get $, the students help to gain Starcraft II skill, increasing their skill and potentially their community value.
"It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further." There are ALWAYS middlemen, ALWAYS. And OF COURSE they're making money, if they weren't why would they acting as the middle man? Next, you make the assumption that these middle men use the money to contribute to hacking communities to sustain them. Excuse me? Proof? ANY sort of evidence?
Here's something pointing in the other direction: Why would the middle men use the money that they are making to benefit hacking communities? It seems that you are again assuming that these "middle men" are from hacking communities, yet this very well may not be the case. Even if they were, pumping money into an underground community instead of keeping it for themselves seems slightly foolish. This IS in essence your strongest point -- that the middle men are part of hacking communities, so that by buying leveling services one is essentially benefiting hackers. However, since you do not provide any sort of proof, only assume, it cannot be taken seriously.
Because of the lack of proof and abundance of assumptions, we can't conclude anything about leveling companies, except that they benefit professional and semi-professional gamers by giving them a source of $$. Now, if it is discovered that many of your assumptions ARE true (through proof, statements, open examination of the companies in question and the people who run them, ect) the community should taken proper action. However, I have a feeling that leveling services are actually more beneficial to the community at the present by giving gamers money, something that is very hard to come by atm.
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On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten.
That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events.
Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments.
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If people really didn't want things like leveling services to matter so much they'd quit making it matter so much. I for one don't expect some 14 year old kid with mommy's credit card to not go and buy these types of things because they are to naive to realize how unimportant it is. Or for that matter someone older who is to insecure to admit for reason A or B they can't play well enough themselves to make masters/gm. Because 9 times out of 10 that's the people your dealing with who buy these things. In both cases they want to feel like they matter more and are willing to pay to pretend they do.
Can I completely fault the pros for taking these people's money, yes and no. I get that some 'pros' and I use that term loosely can barely afford to keep going. Is another career path in order...maybe, are they going to do that..probably not. Would I fault leagues / blizzard / sites from banning people known to level others accounts. No I sure wouldn't because it goes against the integrity of competition and any real 'pro' shouldn't be doing that. Especially considering some leagues do use ladder as a gauge of entrance and stuff like this can distort that gauge.
All and all I think it's really up to blizzard to...
A) Build a better GM system in the first place, it's not very representative ever of the top 200 players just due to the time constraints in getting in. (IE if you can't ladder the day or two after it goes up good luck getting in). So the GM system should probably look at a top 200 MMR from the previous season or at minimum give players more then a day or two to play a game to get in.
B) Police the GM ladder better, if anyone should be under a microscope and easily could be by blizzard it's the top 200 per region. It wouldn't be hard for blizzard to have a few people dedicated to making sure the people in GM are not hackers, level'd accounts etc. It's just a matter of blizzard bothering to make their ladder meaningful or not. If they chose not to police the GM ranks better then obviously blizzard doesn't care.
The alternative...
If blizzard continues to let the GM ladder be messed up in one way or another, eventually someone will build and police their own ladder and people will stop giving a carp about blizzards ladder. (See what happened with maps after a while).
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I don't see a problem in it. The person who gets their account levelled can't actually play on it or they will just flat out lose anyway. If they never play on it, after 2 seasons it will reset. Similarly, if they play 1 game a season and lose everytime, they will end up getting demoted.
To those who think a levelled account could be picked for an event, it more than likely won't as they won't be able to play on it during the season. If anything, it's less fair to other players for a pro to have like 2-3 accounts in GM than to have a levelled account in GM.
So if we are to complain about this, we might as well complain about multiple accounts/smurfs. Which would be ridiculous to complain about too.
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On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments.
I don't have no sympathy for a tournament organizer who is stupid enough to use the ladder as tool for invites. Do proper qualifiers and you will get the better players to your tournament.
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On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments. That is a tournament level problem. There are issues intrinsic to only having one ladder, and it being fully under the control of Blizzard. Firstly ladder rank is a dubious way to invite people to begin with just because of how imperfect ladder rankings must be. Secondly, even if you invite people that way, you certainly ought to screen them if your tournament is worth that much.
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On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments.
That's just Blizzard being stupid as hell (as well as notoriously arbitrary with their invites - remember the Blizzcon roulette each year?). Any real tournament uses qualifiers. This could be a problem if people did this kind of thing in qualifiers, but it's really impractical for a variety of reasons, and also relatively easy to detect.
And honestly, you have to be really fucking intentionally obtuse in order not to see the difference between this and hacking. Hacking is literally breaking the rules of the game, making it pointless and unfun. This is essentially the same as a pro smurfing, and winning because he's simply that much better than your average Masters player. Would it also be delegitimizing the ladder if Naama bought 20 NA accounts and got them all into GM, just for shits and giggles?
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This doesn't really do any harm... If pros can make money from stupid people then great. Why the hell would you have a pro level your account though?
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This is entirely a Blizzard judgement call. While it does infringe on their EULA a bit (accountshareing and profiting of the game), it's in a area where they usualy do not ban someone for it. Allso the playes who take part in the process are high profile players, punishment of them could have consequenses for the development of the competetive aspects of the game.
Personaly I do not think this is a issue for anyone but the person who wants his account leveled and the one selling it. When you enter a ladder to play against a bunch of anonymous or at least only semi-identified strangers. You have to accept that some of them will be good and some bad. XXsephirothZZ could be IdrA or just any mr.smith(beginner). As the one playing against theese accounts you should just think of it as someone smurfing. To you there is no noticable difference, and if blizzard accepts the proceedings then you can do nothing about it except try to shame honest gamers for trying to make a living.
The player who buys this service places a huge amount of trust in the hands of a compleete stranger, with verry limited possibilities of recovering his monney in case his services are not delivered, and he's likely be laughed at if he publicly demands his monney back. Alternatively just be ignored because the guy is famous and probably gets all sorts of strange requests. If some outraged parent goes to the press this could cause some bad press for Blizzard and is in my opinion the biggest reason they should do something about theese services.
As for the whole "someone has higher rating than me but didnt deserve it". This is not for you to judge. Blizzard runns this league, shareing accounts is dissallowed in name but not in practice. Hackers are banned but theese players are as of now, not banned. If this upsetts you I sugest you petition Blizzard instead of whine on TL.
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I remember hearing that Dragon used to do this all the time on stream.
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On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten.
If you feel that ladder doesn't mean anything, why do you think hacking matters? Isn't it true that the majority of hackers are bad and can be beat with superior mechanics? If so why not just shrug off the fact that they're hacking on this dumb video game ladder and get better so you can beat them?
The central problem with hacking is that it hurts the competitive integrity of the ladder. The same is true of account leveling. It results in a bunch of dead weight accounts in masters and above. It also means that whenever you play against a pro who's leveling an account, that game is just as meaningless to you competitively as if you were playing against a hacker. If you just want to throw up your arms and say ladder is complete garbage already so who cares if it gets ruined some more, then why should anyone ladder? Are we okay with the SC2 ladder devolving into something that is completely ruined, just like what happened with the BW ladder? The ladder player base is already dwindling, we don't need people being under the impression that in any given game, they may well be playing against an account leveler or hacker.
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, the ladder has meaning. High master and GM has more meaning than any other tier of the ladder. We don't know how many leveled accounts there are, but we do know that the upper tiers of the ladder would be more meaningful without them.
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account leveling is fine, pros need the income.
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this is very wrong. Not only are they taking the experience away from whoever they are boosting, but they are also cluttering the ladder up with ppl who don't deserve their rank.. It's bad enough everyone who couldnt break out of Platinum switched to either z/p to get to diamond+ but now pros are going to level ppl? I mean MajOr boosted Desrow's KR account to GM which he later lost. Thats not fair for the people who actually practice their asses off trying to get into GM just to have some scrub take their spot cause someone boosted them. Pros can find a better way to make money, and if they can't then in my opinion they need a new career
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Do you people really think that hacking is bad because it allows terrible players to get high on the ladder? It's like I'm in some kind of weird twilight zone or something. Playing against a hacker is the same as playing against a smurf of a pro? Seriously?
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It's really not that big of a deal in my opinion. I have leveled several peoples accounts to masters and the reason people like to get their accounts leveled is to learn more by playing better players. It's usually not so they can brag to their friends about them getting masters as many of you think it is. It's a legitimate way for people to get better at the game by surrounding them in a more difficult environment.
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So I guess smurfing accounts to GM is also bad? -_-
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Who needs powerleveling? All you need is a good cheese
Besides, let people use their parent's credit, ladder is a joke with the hackers anyways
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On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments. Inviting people based on ladder point is like inviting random people in pretty clothes on the street to your house, you deserve to get robbed. Once in a while you will find tournament organizers that are foolish enough to do that. You should blame them instead of ladder.
Account sharing is really common now, and Blizzard can't and shouldn't do anything about it. Various tournaments, teams organizers use shared accounts to play matches and stuff. You don't seriously suggest Blizzard banning PRIMEZZANG, IMTV, NASL A, NASL B, StarTale, .v.v.v..v. accounts, do you?
This is one of the trivial crime, the gray area, much like peeing on the street, or lying to school to get days off. They are wrong and against written documents, but also so trivial that it's not worth spending time and resource pursuing them.
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The Ladder is completely fucked anyways. Between hackers, multiple accounts, and the lame system Blizz has in place, there is zero incentive to actually work on getting better and zero fun in the game. Since it's complete ass anyways, I think it's great that a few players can actually make money doing stupid shit like "leveling" accounts.
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Most pros don't make very much money. It's a service they can perform to earn some extra $$.
If I was good enough to wtfpwn noobs until GM and some guy said hey I'll give u $500 to get me into GM. I'd be all over that.
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Power-leveled accounts honestly aren't that big of a problem. The person in GM/masters falsely will not win, he'll lose, and if he doesn't play he'll lose his rank. Either way, he's going down in rank once he is not power leveled. He's basically paying for a chance to be banned for breaking the EULA, which in my eyes seems quite fair: the people who get power-leveled pay for it, literally and figuratively.
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Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities.
Obviously, a lot of people are saying they don't think this is a big deal. The biggest counterpoint for me is the potential for these services to contribute to hacking communities. There's a reason the levelers advertise in those communities rather than in a more public forum. I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler.
A lot of people have argued that it's justified because progamers need money. To that I would respond, needing money never excuses a wrong. Either a progamer can make his way honestly, or he should find another career. We all know the scene is oversaturated anyways.
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I'm pretty sure IMMvp is a beastyqt's smurf.
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On July 17 2012 09:10 Faust852 wrote: I'm pretty sure IMMvp is a beastyqt's smurf.
That's on EU.
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On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler.
I think that is the point I'd make. Ladder games are completely meaningless, and the outcome of every match is now just vanity. The whole system is boring and FUBAR, so trying to demand integrity in such a system is pointless. Even if zero people were "leveled' in such a fashion, the ladder is a complete farce in every way.
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On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities.
Obviously, a lot of people are saying they don't think this is a big deal. The biggest counterpoint for me is the potential for these services to contribute to hacking communities. There's a reason the levelers advertise in those communities rather than in a more public forum. I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler.
A lot of people have argued that it's justified because progamers need money. To that I would respond, needing money never excuses a wrong. Either a progamer can make his way honestly, or he should find another career. We all know the scene is oversaturated anyways.
I would LOVE for you to respond to my previous post. I address and counter all of your points. FYI: Leveling companies advertise everywhere -- they even sponsor showmatches so that they can advertise there. The problem with your second point here is that pros need to make money. You're essentially telling people to play completely honest, a principle that just isn't true in the real world. Your definition of immoral, leveling accounts, is NOT the majority of the communities, as shown in this thread. So, thinking along the same lines as democracy, live with it and don't buy leveling yourself.
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I think at the end of the day there are loads of pro's who dont have gold stars and lots of amateurs that do, people using account boosting as the excuse for them not being able to make something of themselves in the starcraft scene are rightfully having their cry's falling on deaf ears.
If you want a gold star, play better starcraft, if you want to make something of yourself, focus on the things that really matter (winning tournaments, good streaming, etc)
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On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities.
Obviously, a lot of people are saying they don't think this is a big deal. The biggest counterpoint for me is the potential for these services to contribute to hacking communities. There's a reason the levelers advertise in those communities rather than in a more public forum. I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler.
A lot of people have argued that it's justified because progamers need money. To that I would respond, needing money never excuses a wrong. Either a progamer can make his way honestly, or he should find another career. We all know the scene is oversaturated anyways.
There are several problems:
1: The only "rule" against this as far as I can tell is that share account is against EULA. How do you propose to enforce this? IP lock is not feasible since pros' IP would change all the time, sometime across multiple countries in the same week. And it would be a total hassle for people that travels alot.
2: It's a dumb rule to enforce anyway, unless you want to ban all team accounts, event official / caster account and all that stuff.
3: Biggest problem is that people just don't care. Maybe (not likely though) you can convince people you are right, but there is no way you can convince people to care, And it doesn't mean much to be right if they just don't give a damn.
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On July 17 2012 09:17 murkk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: I also don't want my ladder games to be meaningless, played against either a hacker or a leveler.
I think that is the point I'd make. Ladder games are completely meaningless, and the outcome of every match is now just vanity. The whole system is boring and FUBAR, so trying to demand integrity in such a system is pointless. Even if zero people were "leveled' in such a fashion, the ladder is a complete farce in every way. Seriously, I can't think of a single game where the in-game ladder actually meant something.
The only way for a ladder to actually mean anything is if it's ran on an external website and policed by the community. Like CAL and ICCup back in the day.
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On July 17 2012 09:04 Doodsmack wrote: Updated the OP to add some points about leveling hurting the competitive integrity of the ladder and contributing to hacking sites/communities.
Agreed. One problem regarding leveling services is how it affects the opponents that are crushed during the leveling sessions. Ladder anxiety is a frequently discussed topic also here at TL.
For example I watched Dragon's stream yesterday (2012-07-16) where he was leveling a silver level account. Dragon showed at least once his e-mail inbox, which had multiple e-mails with topic "powerleveling". During that session Dragon crushed several silver to platinum level opponents with as humiliating tactics as possible. He also harassed those opponents with smiley whispers immediately after matches. Those players expected to get about similar level opponents, but got humiliated by a professional. I wonder how many new & developing players have quit SC2 because of Dragon & other such players.
On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote: Here's why I think this account is leveled by Naama:
1. The 1v1 player's hotkey patterns match exactly to Naama. The team game player's hotkeys are completely different, as is his skill level (far inferior). See below.
You used replays from Naama's Mousesports era. Naama left Mouz in early 2011. You might want to check if his recent replays still contain similar hotkey patterns.
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As far as the "who cares?" argument section of this thread from the OP, your third is rather irrelevant, sure levelers are putting baby bronze users into GM and taking spots away from potential up and comers, but guess what so are the countless pros that smurf and have 2-3-4 accounts in GM all season long. Are you going to start to complain about that as well cause it is about the same redundancy of an issue. Most Pros seems to make next to no money unless they are top top top tier so let them make a few dollars on the side and level some kids account.
And please don't say you don't want your ladder games to be meaningless because like it or not, outside of practicing builds which you can do in customs with similar skilled opponents, your ladder games are meaningless. I will probably get flamed and trolled for this comment but it is simple truth of the matter, outside high high masters and GM ladder games don't matter, even at that point I don't think they matter much, it is just status symbol that should not be taken very seriously.
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While I do agree that this is a problem, I think the scale of it is so small that it's batting at flies. I can't imagine that the number of people willing to pay for this utterly useless service is very big so in terms of things that need to be addressed from Blizzard's side to bring legitimacy back into the Ladder this is pretty low on the totempole.
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To hit on the selling lessons by fake GM issue.
While fraud in selling lessons is really awful, if people are buying lessons from huxsters shouldn't they either report it or do more research before paying someone for lessons? Wouldn't a quick inquiry into whether someone was legit or not or going through a company that uses actual pros solve that problem? I can understand kids being duped but how are they going to get access to coaching type of money, anyways?
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Hacking comparisons fall short, hacking is about doing something a human can't with an unfair advantage in game. The effect of anyone who plays vs a good player leveling someone else's account is the same as when a good player just gets a new account to begin with and has to get it into high leagues.
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it does not hurt anyone. pro gammers need money, Theres pro gammers who lvl multi accounts into gm for fun with out selling them, how does puting more money into their pocket hurting anyone?
Those lvl'd accounts in gm will fall out with in a week of losing by the owner or not being active, so its not a issue of taking up gm spots to.
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America truly is a rich country, to hand over to someone money so they can do a 'service' to you whose sole purpose is to brag to your friends?
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fuck you idiots that blatantly support this. it's CHEATING. i don't care that the lesser 'pros' don't make enough money - they chose their lot in life. we should let botters shit on D3 right - they're not HURTING people, right?
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On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: Personally, I see no problem with account leveling -- the points you bring up about people breaking into GM don't really matter since grandmaster league doesn't mean anything -- on any given day the bottom 100 players in GM don't even belong there MMR wise -- Masters players have overtaken them. In order for the average high masters player to break into GM he/she has to play the day it comes out, if the league fills up you will have to be the #1 ranked player in Masters league in order to be moved into it. This defeats your point of the average high masters player attempting to get into GM -- simply put, they won't either way.
But some of the bottom 100 who have been overtaken may be new to GM who worked hard in the previous season to get their MMR where it is. I don't see what your point is because it's still the case that if you get your MMR within the top 200, you will make GM the next season (unless as you say it fills up but that is probably your fault).
Also, my point applies to high master as well as GM. Leveled accounts are taking up high master spots that could go to more aspiring semi-pros.
On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: Addressing your point about account sharing being against the EULA -- Blizzard usually doesn't even act on infringements. Before their announcement of a mass ban, how many hackers were playing on the NA ladder (Hell, there are STILL many hackers playing on it today). Since blizzard seems to just not care enough to enforce all of its rules, there's no real punishment or way of proof to convict people of account sharing.
It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong.
On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: I don't really understand your third point. You state that the main source of customers are hackers -- what is your proof? Even so, proof aside, let's look at your statement: "These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling." -- What? What is your point? What harm does this do besides the fact that they fact?
I don't know if it's the main source or not, but it's undeniable that these leveling services are frequently advertised on hacking sites. This includes making threads on the hacking sites. Certainly they are going to draw that type of customer. This ties into my point that the leveling serves to legitimize hackers' accounts. IMMvp clearly hacks in team games as I demonstrated with replays. Apparently these pros have no problem with helping out hackers.
On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: "The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it." -- What is wrong with coaching? I don't understand. If anything, this may HELP the situation of pro gamers not making nearly enough $$. Sounds like a very convenient and beneficial combination to BOTH parties -- The pros get $, the students help to gain Starcraft II skill, increasing their skill and potentially their community value.
I didn't say it's helping the pros coach, I said the people who got leveled (and are not legitimately at the skill level of their league) are then advertising coaching and telling people that they really are GM/high master.
On July 17 2012 07:02 Glon wrote: "It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further." There are ALWAYS middlemen, ALWAYS. And OF COURSE they're making money, if they weren't why would they acting as the middle man? Next, you make the assumption that these middle men use the money to contribute to hacking communities to sustain them. Excuse me? Proof? ANY sort of evidence?
Here's something pointing in the other direction: Why would the middle men use the money that they are making to benefit hacking communities? It seems that you are again assuming that these "middle men" are from hacking communities, yet this very well may not be the case. Even if they were, pumping money into an underground community instead of keeping it for themselves seems slightly foolish. This IS in essence your strongest point -- that the middle men are part of hacking communities, so that by buying leveling services one is essentially benefiting hackers. However, since you do not provide any sort of proof, only assume, it cannot be taken seriously.
Many of the advertised middlemen on the prominent hacking site are donors to that site or "Advanced Hackers." These people contribute money and add to the knowledge base of the site with their programming expertise (as demonstrated by their post history). I'm not linking to direct sources since I don't think TL allows any linking to hacking sites.
And there's also the point of increasing traffic to the hacking sites in general.
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Who cares! I can't believe someone is paying to get a Account into GM. Then what? Either don't play and get out of GM or play and get your Ass kicked. Even at a Pro-Level no one cares about the Ladder - the only thing that madders is you own skill-level. Some people are just completly retarded!
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On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong.
Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it.
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On July 17 2012 07:37 Uracil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments. I don't have no sympathy for a tournament organizer who is stupid enough to use the ladder as tool for invites. Do proper qualifiers and you will get the better players to your tournament.
Blizzard will used their ladder because... It's their ladder. They want to promote the game and give incentive for pros to play in the public ladder. They don't care whether the players are 'better' or not. They make the tournaments to get publicity and more people to buy their games. Has blizzard ever had proper qualifiers? They'd had to set up some kind of huge lan for that, and that doesn't seem to be in their interest. They want an on stage performance and winner.
On July 17 2012 07:52 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments. That's just Blizzard being stupid as hell (as well as notoriously arbitrary with their invites - remember the Blizzcon roulette each year?). Any real tournament uses qualifiers. This could be a problem if people did this kind of thing in qualifiers, but it's really impractical for a variety of reasons, and also relatively easy to detect. And honestly, you have to be really fucking intentionally obtuse in order not to see the difference between this and hacking. Hacking is literally breaking the rules of the game, making it pointless and unfun. This is essentially the same as a pro smurfing, and winning because he's simply that much better than your average Masters player. Would it also be delegitimizing the ladder if Naama bought 20 NA accounts and got them all into GM, just for shits and giggles?
Yeah they're stupid with their invites. Have I somehow implied that it's a system that I would use myself and is optimal? They still do it, and that's a fact.
You seem to have some severe lack of literacy as you somehow managed to get my post to that hacking and power levling is the exact same thing. I said that the results are the same.
Yes I think smurfing also is delegitimizing the ladder, though not to the same extent, as this actually brings even more problems to the tournament side of things.
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On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it.
They should be able to maphack too?
It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it.
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1019 Posts
This just reflects the financially unstable nature of esports. There just isn't enough money going around. There isn't much going on behind all the glitter that people shower upon SC2.
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This shouldn't be an issue. People have had pros boosting their teams in games for years and sc2 gives no rewards for being high on the ladder, if some idiot wants to waste cash to have his account be GM for a little while then let them be.
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On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it.
Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth?
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On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth?
Oh wow.. That's a bit of a serve, don't you think?
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so I am reading a lot of speculation, a lot of strawmen, and a bunch of slippery slope arguments. I don't know how to constructively contribute to this thread from there, other than by saying that there is not enough evidence to suggest that programmers (you meant programmers, not progamers, unless you are talking about games other than SC2, in which case the focus on battlenet and Blizzard is a bit narrow-minded) "boosting" accounts is harming anybody, let alone evidence to support the claim that programmers are doing this.
I can understand some of the mindsets in here, but I think unless there is something substantial to support views presented in this thread one way or another, this is an exercise in speculation, and speculation alone..
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On July 17 2012 13:51 FireSA wrote: so I am reading a lot of speculation, a lot of strawmen, and a bunch of slippery slope arguments. I don't know how to constructively contribute to this thread from there, other than by saying that there is not enough evidence to suggest that programmers (you meant programmers, not progamers, unless you are talking about games other than SC2, in which case the focus on battlenet and Blizzard is a bit narrow-minded) "boosting" accounts is harming anybody, let alone evidence to support the claim that programmers are doing this.
I can understand some of the mindsets in here, but I think unless there is something substantial to support views presented in this thread one way or another, this is an exercise in speculation, and speculation alone..
Programmers? What?
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We can go on and on in circles about whether Hacking is "wrong" or not. Something that is technically illegal doesn't make it wrong. For example, it is illegal to 30 MPH on a 25. However, is it wrong? Of course not, in fact is widely considered "right." So, we must ask ourselves if leveling services are doing harm, and if so, to what level of harm they are causing. I think they are doing minimal harm, only really being noticeable in a few circumstantial cases. That is my 2 cents, and as a semi/full pro I would enjoy the extra $$ income.
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No matter your ladder ranking, I cannot imagine a semi-pro going fully pro without scoring some results in online and LAN tourneys.
Hacking is a whole another issue and should not be mixed up here. Otherwise, it would just be a cheap way to grasp at straws when you lack real arguments.
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If the arguement for this practice violates the integrity of the ladder could the same not be said for the use of smurf accounts?
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On July 17 2012 13:35 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? Oh wow.. That's a bit of a serve, don't you think?
If strawmans are serves, sure.
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Who the fuck cares? This doesn't change the game at all, no one is really hurt (OMG I LOST 20 LADDER POINTS QQ), and the players make some needed money on the side. Those of you arguing that it makes it harder for other players to break GM, that is complete bullshit. I tried to break GM last season, and unless you can beat the player who is doing the leveling in the first place, you don't deserve to be in GM. I learned that the hard way.
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On July 17 2012 14:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:35 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? Oh wow.. That's a bit of a serve, don't you think? If strawmans are serves, sure.
I was thinking of it going something like this
"arugment back and forth blablabla" "anything else you want to put in my mouth?" "my dick"
Didn't happen though :'(
Edit. From what I can tell pretty much everyone is just reading the OP and then post whatever comes to mind. Read the thread! No one has yet said anything to the argument 'blizzard tournament players are invited through ladder' except for 'ladder stupid stfu'
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Omg my ladder points I am only masters, clearly these powerlevelers are to blame
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I personally think powerleveling doesnt really matter much. They will eventually be brought back to their league that they belong in. As you have mentioned, once you get into GM you need to maintain a certain amount of bonus pool or else you will be kicked out. So those bronze league kids who got their accounts to GM, this means that they will need to spend their bonus pool, and if they cant even win a game that means their bonus pool will accumulate? Yes, bonus pool for them will increase. Also even startale_bomber did a powerleveling on NA serv while he was streaming. I dont see why not?
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On July 17 2012 16:00 hangene92 wrote: I personally think powerleveling doesnt really matter much. They will eventually be brought back to their league that they belong in. As you have mentioned, once you get into GM you need to maintain a certain amount of bonus pool or else you will be kicked out. So those bronze league kids who got their accounts to GM, this means that they will need to spend their bonus pool, and if they cant even win a game that means their bonus pool will accumulate? Yes, bonus pool for them will increase. Also even startale_bomber did a powerleveling on NA serv while he was streaming. I dont see why not? The trick is to leave like 50 games on a row and then kill some bronze leaguers, you'll be in GM for the whole season
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I feel pity to players who pay the money for laddering. This is really funny style to have a big dick )
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On July 17 2012 14:08 Glon wrote: We can go on and on in circles about whether Hacking is "wrong" or not. Something that is technically illegal doesn't make it wrong. For example, it is illegal to 30 MPH on a 25. However, is it wrong? Of course not, in fact is widely considered "right." So, we must ask ourselves if leveling services are doing harm, and if so, to what level of harm they are causing. I think they are doing minimal harm, only really being noticeable in a few circumstantial cases. That is my 2 cents, and as a semi/full pro I would enjoy the extra $$ income.
Well i'm sorry to say but hacking is wrong I don't think that's debatable. Account leveling I think is retarded and don't know why people would ever pay for it, but it's not wrong.
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I think I figured out a valid reason for account leveling: advertising
When I get GM I'll sell my naming rights. Expect to see DrinkPepsi sometime soon on GM
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It's just the same debate as in WoW all over again, just that in WoW you actually got stuff from it (that you can potentially sell for a lot of money on ebay if you sold your account, so the people who would have been in the "GM" region but got pushed out by "pro" players actually lost something valuable), while in SC2 its just completely pointless to spend money to get into GM.
I see it as a form of money support for pro players and thats a good thing.
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this kind of leveling hurts people that are on the cusp of gm and try hard each season to get into gm just to miss the cut by a few people, when there are top players with multiple accounts in gm & these leveled accounts its too bad
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On July 17 2012 15:00 Euronyme wrote: No one has yet said anything to the argument 'blizzard tournament players are invited through ladder' except for 'ladder stupid stfu'
Because it's not the topic at hand? Hacking is just mentioned in the OP to give the argument about why we should care some (/any) strength. A bought account would still need to play regularly to move up the ranks. If it does play you'll either play the buyer (free ladder points) or Naama (annoying yes, but then I'm not a fan of his style). And if you play a hacker, so be it. Wasn't it Day[9] who said doing so actually made him a lot better?
Blizzard should do their best to combat hacking for online tourneys' sake and would hopefully have wisened up enough not to invite hackers to their own things by now, but that's a seperate topic.
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Honestly, you aren't much of a "pro" player if your team/sponsor/winnings cant support you. Should probably consider a day job. Don't mistake me, you don't need to be an all star, teams need B-Teamers for practice and such, and B-Teamers get a place to live, money, food, like a real job. But dont call yourself a professional player if you arent.
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On July 17 2012 13:07 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:37 Uracil wrote:On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments. I don't have no sympathy for a tournament organizer who is stupid enough to use the ladder as tool for invites. Do proper qualifiers and you will get the better players to your tournament. Blizzard will used their ladder because... It's their ladder. They want to promote the game and give incentive for pros to play in the public ladder. They don't care whether the players are 'better' or not. They make the tournaments to get publicity and more people to buy their games. Has blizzard ever had proper qualifiers? They'd had to set up some kind of huge lan for that, and that doesn't seem to be in their interest. They want an on stage performance and winner. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:52 Toadvine wrote:On July 17 2012 07:07 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 05:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm trying to avoid the rage out, but seriously, why does it matter. It's an icon. If your MMR is high enough, even at high masters you're considered GM. It's not a big deal.
I level names all the time for anyone that asks me to do it. I find it amazingly fun to just troll and try out new strats. There's no harm it in, what so ever.
The real question is why are you so butthurt that you made this thread? What happened to make you so angry to type out that thesis paper?
I don't understand the witch hunt over people leveling names. Nothing is really based off ladder, at all. So what, you didn't get GM this season because of people having leveled names. I think there are a bit too many white knights that care way too much about a video game ladder. It's a game, it's for fun. If someone wants to pay to have an icon, let them do it. It's probably really fun to the pros to actually have FUN and fuck around and troll people, and not be a try hard 24/7.
Hacking? That's a real issue. Account sharing, or leveling, I don't see a problem with it. Since ladder doesn't mean anything, and rank 1, and rank 99 are all the same -- no name nobodies nine times out of ten. That's actually BS. First of all. The ladder gets you invites to tournaments. Recently there was a hacker invited to Blizzard World Cup or whatever it was called, because he had high enough ladder rank. Yeah we're nerds who care about a video gamer ladder. We post on a fucking video game forum - of course we care about the ladder. This is exactly as bad as hacking, as it gets silver leaguers invites to Blizzard events. Why would you care about hackers but not account sharing? They result in the exact same things: Deligitimizing the ladder and getting the wrong people invited to big tournaments. That's just Blizzard being stupid as hell (as well as notoriously arbitrary with their invites - remember the Blizzcon roulette each year?). Any real tournament uses qualifiers. This could be a problem if people did this kind of thing in qualifiers, but it's really impractical for a variety of reasons, and also relatively easy to detect. And honestly, you have to be really fucking intentionally obtuse in order not to see the difference between this and hacking. Hacking is literally breaking the rules of the game, making it pointless and unfun. This is essentially the same as a pro smurfing, and winning because he's simply that much better than your average Masters player. Would it also be delegitimizing the ladder if Naama bought 20 NA accounts and got them all into GM, just for shits and giggles? Yeah they're stupid with their invites. Have I somehow implied that it's a system that I would use myself and is optimal? They still do it, and that's a fact. You seem to have some severe lack of literacy as you somehow managed to get my post to that hacking and power levling is the exact same thing. I said that the results are the same. Yes I think smurfing also is delegitimizing the ladder, though not to the same extent, as this actually brings even more problems to the tournament side of things. The only Tournaments i can remember that used the ladder for invites were WCS USA and MLG for their online qualifiers for arena. All WCS in europe that i know of had qualifiers and when there were invites those were based on results in national leagues like EPS in Germany or Swedish Masters in Sweden. So it seems it is up to the organizations that run the WCS. MLG decided to use the ladder all other leagues decided against it.
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On July 17 2012 15:00 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:40 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:35 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? Oh wow.. That's a bit of a serve, don't you think? If strawmans are serves, sure. I was thinking of it going something like this "arugment back and forth blablabla" "anything else you want to put in my mouth?" "my dick" Didn't happen though :'( Edit. From what I can tell pretty much everyone is just reading the OP and then post whatever comes to mind. Read the thread! No one has yet said anything to the argument 'blizzard tournament players are invited through ladder' except for 'ladder stupid stfu'
In response to blizzard inviting people through ladder. 1) the player who paid for service has to be active to stay on GM 2) If they are active then that means they have to play against other GM, do you think someone who paid for the service can hang with GM? They'll drop off from GM anyways. So again, it doesnt matter. Even if they somehow got into the tournament (highly unlikely)... they would just get mopped by legit players.
People who pays for powerlevel is dumb, but if pros can make a little extra money, well I think its helping Esports
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On July 17 2012 16:56 BanditX wrote: Honestly, you aren't much of a "pro" player if your team/sponsor/winnings cant support you. Should probably consider a day job. Don't mistake me, you don't need to be an all star, teams need B-Teamers for practice and such, and B-Teamers get a place to live, money, food, like a real job. But dont call yourself a professional player if you arent. By that logic are the people who coach (idra, incontrol and w/o a doubt many others) no pro gamers either? Yeah, didn't really think that through, did you?
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On July 17 2012 16:45 aBstractx wrote:this kind of leveling hurts people that are on the cusp of gm and try hard each season to get into gm just to miss the cut by a few people, when there are top players with multiple accounts in gm & these leveled accounts its too bad I think that people who are on the cusp of entering GM know that entering GM doesn't really matter at the moment anyways. Not saying it's not shitty, it is a little shitty, but not very shitty.
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On July 17 2012 16:54 schimmetje wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 15:00 Euronyme wrote: No one has yet said anything to the argument 'blizzard tournament players are invited through ladder' except for 'ladder stupid stfu' Because it's not the topic at hand? Hacking is just mentioned in the OP to give the argument about why we should care some (/any) strength. A bought account would still need to play regularly to move up the ranks. If it does play you'll either play the buyer (free ladder points) or Naama (annoying yes, but then I'm not a fan of his style). And if you play a hacker, so be it. Wasn't it Day[9] who said doing so actually made him a lot better? Blizzard should do their best to combat hacking for online tourneys' sake and would hopefully have wisened up enough not to invite hackers to their own things by now, but that's a seperate topic.
That's not the point. The point is that the buyer would get an invite to a big tournament instead of an up and coming player. That's a problem. I don't see why people would think it's a big deal when a hacker gets an invite to a tournament, but if an account buyer would get it it's fine. Why would the invite go to Naama (or whoever is levling)? I'd assume it would go to the owner's email address? Blizzards takes things in their own pace, or lack thereof. There were cries for all the 'features' coming in HotS already in the beta.
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what was the point of this? Pros need 2 make money and this isnt hurting any1 directly if the guy's skill isnt gm he will get demoted out.
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Zurich15239 Posts
This reads like you are just out to get this skrillex guy again - like you did before in the hacking thread.
If this is indeed a wide spread phenomenon please PM me sufficient evidence, then I'll consider reopening the thread.
Edit: Thanks for the material.
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I've updated the OP with some more info that shows how widespread this could be as far as GM accounts go. While a lot of people have said in this thread that they don't think it's a big deal, I think if people knew just how many GM accounts may be leveled, they may change their minds. MillDragon was getting a steady stream of customers on his stream, I wouldn't be surprised if people like him are making decent money off it.
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On July 19 2012 08:22 Doodsmack wrote: I've updated the OP with some more info that shows how widespread this could be as far as GM accounts go. While a lot of people have said in this thread that they don't think it's a big deal, I think if people knew just how many GM accounts may be leveled, they may change their minds. MillDragon was getting a steady stream of customers on his stream, I wouldn't be surprised if people like him are making decent money off it.
Question: If player A decides to get levelling from player B and gets to grandmasters (While his real skill level is mid gold), a couple of things could happens:
- He can never play on his account again, lest he lose his grandmaster placement (since he would never win a game), resulting in a loss of grandmaster status due to inactivity. This wouldn't effect the competitiveness of the ladder.
- He plays, but loses his games until he's in mid gold again. (Would only play a fraction of the playerbase on his way down, doubtful to play the same player twice). This would briefly effect the competitiveness of the ladder, though not in a meaningful way.
- Player B continues to play on his account just barely enough to keep him in grandmasters, which would make games competitive and not effect the competitiveness of ladder.
I doubt anyone playing would ever notice that maybe Player A got his accounted leveled during any of those scenarios. Likewise, the process of a player leveling the account wouldn't effect anyone either simply due to the fact that he's going to be playing to win. He'll beat people he's better than, and he'll eventually get to where it's competitive. I've leveled up an EU account from bronze (Because I was trying to learn terran, but terran's too hard) to masters; Does this make me a bad person to "compromise the integrity of the ladder"?
This was only skepticism regarding your second point. However I find the fact that you're connecting it to hacking.. impractical. Money comes from somewhere, I fail to see how this is any more "wrong" than donating to those developing hacks from your pocket.
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On July 16 2012 16:36 alderamin wrote: It is ladder abuse and thus cheating. In the past the community has tried to ban people who ladder abuse and cheat from all tournaments for a period of time.. And Kespa even banned people for life. Of course Blizzard will ban those accounts too.
Agreed plain and simple ladder abuse. No reason to ever allow this sort of thing and I look down on those pro's doing this for people.
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On July 19 2012 08:40 InfCereal wrote:I find the fact that you're connecting it to hacking.. impractical. Money comes from somewhere, I fail to see how this is any more "wrong" than donating to those developing hacks from your pocket.
Why does it need to be more wrong? Even if they are equally wrong, it's still wrong. All the same, I would expect for any pro-gamer who is shown to have a connection with the hacker community to be disciplined appropriately.
Edit: I just realized that your quotation marks around "wrong" implies that you might not think donating money to the people making hacks is bad. I don't even know what to say to that.
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On July 17 2012 17:06 Forgottenfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 15:00 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 14:40 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:35 Euronyme wrote:On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? Oh wow.. That's a bit of a serve, don't you think? If strawmans are serves, sure. I was thinking of it going something like this "arugment back and forth blablabla" "anything else you want to put in my mouth?" "my dick" Didn't happen though :'( Edit. From what I can tell pretty much everyone is just reading the OP and then post whatever comes to mind. Read the thread! No one has yet said anything to the argument 'blizzard tournament players are invited through ladder' except for 'ladder stupid stfu' In response to blizzard inviting people through ladder. 1) the player who paid for service has to be active to stay on GM 2) If they are active then that means they have to play against other GM, do you think someone who paid for the service can hang with GM? They'll drop off from GM anyways. So again, it doesnt matter. Even if they somehow got into the tournament (highly unlikely)... they would just get mopped by legit players. People who pays for powerlevel is dumb, but if pros can make a little extra money, well I think its helping Esports Once you're in GM your MMR can be at any level and you'll remain there. So if a Bronze player gets levelled to GM, they just have to lose enough games for them to be playing Bronze leaguers again (so that they can win and lower their bonus pool) and they will remain in GM. The only way to drop out of GM is if you aren't playing enough.
Edit: Or they can just continue to pay someone to play for them so they maintain a decent GM rank.
My main concern with this is that I constantly see GMs who are confirmed as having levelled or hacked in the Bnet strategy channels trying to talk noobs into paying for coaching.
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I have no idea why you would pay for account leveling, besides some idea that your name will become recognized or something.
Hacking is quite obviously wrong, and if you are using a hack to level someone's account, than you should be banned.
However, account leveling is completely fine in my eyes, regardless of what Blizzard says.
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I can't believe people are defending this bullshit. It is already said that foreigners don't practice enough.
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On July 16 2012 16:32 VPCursed wrote: Pro's need $ and in e-sports their isn't enough going around unless you're a top contender in tourneys.. hell.. i've seen forgg stream him self account leveling and chat with the person he was doing it for... Don't think its that bad of a thing tbh
So you think it is okay to ruin the ladder player base of the game you are playing for extra money? A lot of the SC2 spectators of SC2 tournaments are ladder players. When I am not playing Starcraft, I hardly ever watch it. And the reasons for me quitting are when I run into these hackers or power levelers. It is really stupid and ruins the game in the long run.
Yeah they will make a quick bit of "illegal" cash here, but it will hurt them in the long run.
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This isn't the biggest deal in the world, but I do feel it should be frowned upon. Not sure how everyone became so brainwashed that pro gamers need money so they can use ANY avenue to get it, even if it means compromising the integrity of the ladder.
Remember how in WCS certain players were invited off ladder that turned out to be hackers? And everyone was like "what if the spot THAT guy used up could've been someone legitimate?". Same thing goes here: what if those spots taken up in GM stopped a legit high levels player from being invited because they couldn't break into GM? How is this not of concern?
Yes, pro gamers should be able to live and make a living, but they don't get a free pass to abuse the ladder. They are people playing a game.
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I am curious what the major teams think about it. Does EG or Liquid prohibit their players from power-leveling for money?
More importantly, how pathetic is paying someone to power level your account? We should make a list of people that have their accounts power-leveled so we can laugh at them.
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People should be un-featured from TL for doing this. This is against the EULA, and they're still making extra money from streaming.
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i love the smell of fake outrage in the morning!
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so a guy may just bragg about being Masters to his friends, then challenged, play a game and lose to a Plat guy?
not the best thing IMO, won't do it ever, but well... if doing someone else's hw can get you money, in a not-so illegal way... then wtf
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I see no reason to care at all, I can only think that people would care if they think they are going to get stomped on by a GM while the pro is leveling the account up. Why do you care if some scrub wants to play against really good people for a while untill he loses enough to go back down to their old mmr.
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On July 19 2012 10:20 ODKStevez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:32 VPCursed wrote: Pro's need $ and in e-sports their isn't enough going around unless you're a top contender in tourneys.. hell.. i've seen forgg stream him self account leveling and chat with the person he was doing it for... Don't think its that bad of a thing tbh So you think it is okay to ruin the ladder player base of the game you are playing for extra money? A lot of the SC2 spectators of SC2 tournaments are ladder players. When I am not playing Starcraft, I hardly ever watch it. And the reasons for me quitting are when I run into these hackers or power levelers. It is really stupid and ruins the game in the long run. Yeah they will make a quick bit of "illegal" cash here, but it will hurt them in the long run.
You quit because you occasionally get matched up with unfair opponents? Ladder still functions properly 90% of the time and I guarantee you that if you continued to practice and play ladder you would be matching against proper opponents and growing. The very person you quoted was leagues above me at one point, he'd trash me so hard that to most people it would seem like I was wasting my time. But to be able to see that much difference in play helped me grow substantially, it gave me goals outside of going 50/50 on ladder. If you changed your perspective and saw those games as learning experiences and motivation it would help you dramatically.
This isn't a problem its just another thing the community lit on fire. Team Liquid needs to lock the thread and come to a formal conclusion before the mob drags peoples reputation through the mud.
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On July 19 2012 10:40 vileChAnCe wrote:This isn't a problem its just another thing the community lit on fire.
Pro-gamers breaking SC2's TOU isn't a problem? I disagree and I'm sure (or at least I sure hope) most managers of pro gaming teams would disagree too. We've already seen HuK and TLO famously get Blizzard's negative attention for doing this, and what they were doing is no where near as potentially harmful as account boosting can be, as the OP has elaborately explained already. I think it's irresponsible for pro-gamers to intentionally destroy the integrity of the ladder. They should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.
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On July 19 2012 11:36 dudesrslywtf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 10:40 vileChAnCe wrote:This isn't a problem its just another thing the community lit on fire. Pro-gamers breaking SC2's TOU isn't a problem? I disagree and I'm sure (or at least I sure hope) most managers of pro gaming teams would disagree too. We've already seen HuK and TLO famously get Blizzard's negative attention for doing this, and what they were doing is no where near as potentially harmful as account boosting can be, as the OP has elaborately explained already. I think it's irresponsible for pro-gamers to intentionally destroy the integrity of the ladder. They should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.
Dude, as much as integrity matters in this world. At the end of the day, a man gotta eat.
+ It is really good for their PR that they actually interact with the fanbase on a intimate level.
I'm all for power leveling, Blizzard just have to deal with it.
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On July 19 2012 11:40 Xiphos wrote: Dude, as much as integrity matters in this world. At the end of the day, a man gotta eat.
+ It is really good for their PR that they actually interact with the fanbase on a intimate level.
I'm all for power leveling, Blizzard just have to deal with it.
A much more appropriate and effective way to do this would be to offer coaching. No cheating would be taking place, there would be even deeper interaction with the fans and the ladder would benefit from having more better players on it.
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On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth?
How is it any different?
Maphackers ruin the play for everyone else Powerleveling ruins the play for everyone else
Obviously one is way worse than the other, but both are wrong. This isn't a single player game - for one to benefit, another has to suffer
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I don't mind accounts being leveled up to be honest. Pro's have to somehow make money off the game, and that isn't possible with only tournaments. The only problem i've encountered with account levelers is that some of them were knows hackers - FnaticTricky and formely Impa, was one of the account levelers. I DO see a problem in beginners asking to hackers to level them to GM with a good ratio, instead of asking a pro (which is probably asking more $$ too..) Also, the guy who is getting leveled won't be able to keep up his rank unless he pays more or play himself some games on it
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On July 19 2012 11:44 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? How is it any different? Maphackers ruin the play for everyone else Powerleveling ruins the play for everyone else Obviously one is way worse than the other, but both are wrong. This isn't a single player game - for one to benefit, another has to suffer
Why does Powerleveling ruin the game for everyone else? A silver player in GM isn't actually going to ladder, he's just getting GM to show off. Likewise, if Naama plays on any account, he's giving games to people of his skill level which is just fine...
Apart from Portraits, there isn't many things that you gain anyways. Each game of SC2 is a new game and nothing carries over.
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Imo Power leveling doesnt ruin anything! Remember you have to WIN in gm to spend your bonus pool! If not then you will be kicked out in no time. If a bronze can stay in GM, then isnt there a flaw with the system, like once you get in, it is REALLY hard to get kicked out?
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On July 19 2012 11:48 Kluey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 11:44 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? How is it any different? Maphackers ruin the play for everyone else Powerleveling ruins the play for everyone else Obviously one is way worse than the other, but both are wrong. This isn't a single player game - for one to benefit, another has to suffer Why does Powerleveling ruin the game for everyone else? A silver player in GM isn't actually going to ladder, he's just getting GM to show off. Likewise, if Naama plays on any account, he's giving games to people of his skill level which is just fine... Apart from Portraits, there isn't many things that you gain anyways. Each game of SC2 is a new game and nothing carries over.
1) Portrait farming is illegal - you can get banned for it 2) This will give undeserved losses to lower level players, and once the account is no longer powerleveled, undeserved wins to high level players
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I don't get people who say they don't get why this should be a problem. Of course this is a very serious problem. This should be addressed and fixed. As the OP stated, it ruins the integrity of the ladder system. Do you guys remember during the open seasons when Choya would do rock paper scissors on ladder to quickly gain points? It's a similar situation with this one. Technically this isn't hurting anyone. But as a whole and indirectly, it's hurting the scene, casual players, and the pro players themselves who abuse the their skills to exploit the casual players. This should never happen ever again and this needs to be addressed by Blizzard and they should ban it. And the teams should also address their players so that this never happens again. Actions need to be taken by Millenium and the other teams to punish Dragon and Naama and other responsible players.
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This just feels like Diablo 3's Auction House system which trades power-farmed ultra-rare items for cash, but just with laddering.
I don't see Blizzard taking action on this.
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I don't see how someone ranking up an account would 'ruin' ladder. People have smurfs, people have alts, are those ruining ladder? All that will happens is some bronze has a GM account, and if he ever dares to 1v1, he'll get smashed and give free ladder points to someone, maybe enough out there that it will balance out all of ladder, really.
Who cares. Why not just report people who purposefully leave games to 'tank their mmr' that you run into sometimes? Maybe ban people from ladder if they do a probe rush?
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I don't think players should share accounts either. It's messed up seven ways to hell that in the GSTL, the players share an account MULTIPLE times. The evidence is even available online. It's clearly against the Terms of Use and I do believe these accounts should be purged.
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The volume of players, and games played on BattleNet dilutes things like power levelled accounts and smurfs etc. I dont think it really compromises a normal player's experience on the ladder. If it is against the EULA then it's up to Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem, and TL is in the right to frown on such actions.
In my opinion, if you pay 50 bucks for an account, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it...But when you start to make profit on your 50 dollar investment, where do you draw the line? Should Activision get a cut? It's sort of in a fuzzy grey area and I think thats why it's sparked such mixed responses.
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On July 19 2012 13:07 Zedromas wrote: The volume of players, and games played on BattleNet dilutes things like power levelled accounts and smurfs etc. I dont think it really compromises a normal player's experience on the ladder. If it is against the EULA then it's up to Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem, and TL is in the right to frown on such actions.
In my opinion, if you pay 50 bucks for an account, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it...But when you start to make profit on your 50 dollar investment, where do you draw the line? Should Activision get a cut? It's sort of in a fuzzy grey area and I think thats why it's sparked such mixed responses. I'm with you on this. The volume of players willing to pay money for an account AND somebody to make believe with it is small compared to player population. The effect is minimal.
It would be news to me if there was a significant filling of grandmaster league with accounts power-leveled. It's sole mechanic of limiting population to 200 can have an adverse effect towards those who would otherwise be there if not for leveled accounts.
As is said, Blizzard can fix the problem in their own time along with the maphackers and other online issues. As it stands, the effects are hardly noteworthy.
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On July 19 2012 13:07 Zedromas wrote: The volume of players, and games played on BattleNet dilutes things like power levelled accounts and smurfs etc. I dont think it really compromises a normal player's experience on the ladder. If it is against the EULA then it's up to Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem, and TL is in the right to frown on such actions.
In my opinion, if you pay 50 bucks for an account, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it...But when you start to make profit on your 50 dollar investment, where do you draw the line? Should Activision get a cut? It's sort of in a fuzzy grey area and I think thats why it's sparked such mixed responses.
You mean like how pro gamers are making a profit out of their 50 dollars account by winning tourneys? Should pro gamers start paying tournament taxes each time they win to Activision?
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Good points throughout. There should be some sort of penalty, but with streaming revenue not all that good and coaching is more off then on progamers need to make a living doing what they do. Its tough to decide how hard the penalties should be against account lvlers
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If your gonna pay to get your account level... why not just pay for coaching and actually get better?
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On July 19 2012 11:44 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? How is it any different? Maphackers ruin the play for everyone else Powerleveling ruins the play for everyone else Obviously one is way worse than the other, but both are wrong. This isn't a single player game - for one to benefit, another has to suffer
How is it any different other than one is obviously way worse than the other? It sounds like you answered your own question. Difference is one isn't wrong. A GM that was flawed from the start makes it appear wrong. No one really cares about the players that buy achievements/portraits/other leagues that aren't GM. Or players that just decide to log on their friends account and play. You'll never prove whether or not money was involved.
And what a ridiculous over-the-top exaggeration. Powerleveling ruins the game for everyone. I don't think that numerical value would exceed 10. Virtually no one in this thread has been affected by this at all.
On July 19 2012 11:58 FairForever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 19 2012 11:48 Kluey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 11:44 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 13:28 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 13:10 FairForever wrote:On July 17 2012 12:35 rd wrote:On July 17 2012 12:08 Doodsmack wrote: It's not just account sharing in general. I should actually note in the OP that it violates both the SC2 EULA and the Battle.Net TOU. 2(B) of the TOU states:
"You agree that you will not, under any circumstances exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation...perform in-game services in exchange for payment outside the Game, e.g., power-leveling."
But to your point of no enforcement. Lack of enforcement does not justify a wrong. Lack of enforcement is because it's a ridiculous rule. They paid for their account. Let them do whatever the fuck they want to do with it. They should be able to maphack too? It's not their own account, technically Blizzard still owns it. Is there anything else you'd like to put into my mouth? How is it any different? Maphackers ruin the play for everyone else Powerleveling ruins the play for everyone else Obviously one is way worse than the other, but both are wrong. This isn't a single player game - for one to benefit, another has to suffer Why does Powerleveling ruin the game for everyone else? A silver player in GM isn't actually going to ladder, he's just getting GM to show off. Likewise, if Naama plays on any account, he's giving games to people of his skill level which is just fine... Apart from Portraits, there isn't many things that you gain anyways. Each game of SC2 is a new game and nothing carries over. 1) Portrait farming is illegal - you can get banned for it 2) This will give undeserved losses to lower level players, and once the account is no longer powerleveled, undeserved wins to high level players
Oh no, players aren't playing their best to be correctly ranked within a flawed ladder that will never truly represent skill. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD. The ladder can only function like the utopia of competition everyone wants it to be if everyone who ladders plays at their maximum potential and doesn't do anything but play at their maximum potential. No multiple accounts, no sharing. Theres simply no incentive to do so. It was designed for casual players.
On July 19 2012 13:16 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 13:07 Zedromas wrote: The volume of players, and games played on BattleNet dilutes things like power levelled accounts and smurfs etc. I dont think it really compromises a normal player's experience on the ladder. If it is against the EULA then it's up to Blizzard to figure out a way to fix the problem, and TL is in the right to frown on such actions.
In my opinion, if you pay 50 bucks for an account, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it...But when you start to make profit on your 50 dollar investment, where do you draw the line? Should Activision get a cut? It's sort of in a fuzzy grey area and I think thats why it's sparked such mixed responses. You mean like how pro gamers are making a profit out of their 50 dollars account by winning tourneys? Should pro gamers start paying tournament taxes each time they win to Activision?
Pro gamers don't pay those taxes. The tournaments do. Blizzard pretty much acknowledges they don't care about any tournament whose prize pool is less than $5000 by merit of their licenses.
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On July 17 2012 14:08 Glon wrote: We can go on and on in circles about whether Hacking is "wrong" or not. Something that is technically illegal doesn't make it wrong. For example, it is illegal to 30 MPH on a 25. However, is it wrong? Of course not, in fact is widely considered "right." So, we must ask ourselves if leveling services are doing harm, and if so, to what level of harm they are causing. I think they are doing minimal harm, only really being noticeable in a few circumstantial cases. That is my 2 cents, and as a semi/full pro I would enjoy the extra $$ income.
Here's an even better analogy: Pandora is illegal to stream, yet 75% of streamers use it anyways (even switching to pandora screen in between games to pause/skip). And yet, there aren't threads popping up suggesting that we defeature/hate streamers who stream pandora. Again, the difference between "illegal" and "wrong" -- In this case, like the 2 above, they're illegal yes, but not necessarily wrong.
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On July 19 2012 08:54 dudesrslywtf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 08:40 InfCereal wrote:I find the fact that you're connecting it to hacking.. impractical. Money comes from somewhere, I fail to see how this is any more "wrong" than donating to those developing hacks from your pocket. Why does it need to be more wrong? Even if they are equally wrong, it's still wrong. All the same, I would expect for any pro-gamer who is shown to have a connection with the hacker community to be disciplined appropriately. Edit: I just realized that your quotation marks around "wrong" implies that you might not think donating money to the people making hacks is bad. I don't even know what to say to that.
I couldn't care less where people's money goes.
Regardless, you didn't address the point of my post.
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On July 19 2012 10:40 vileChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 10:20 ODKStevez wrote:On July 16 2012 16:32 VPCursed wrote: Pro's need $ and in e-sports their isn't enough going around unless you're a top contender in tourneys.. hell.. i've seen forgg stream him self account leveling and chat with the person he was doing it for... Don't think its that bad of a thing tbh So you think it is okay to ruin the ladder player base of the game you are playing for extra money? A lot of the SC2 spectators of SC2 tournaments are ladder players. When I am not playing Starcraft, I hardly ever watch it. And the reasons for me quitting are when I run into these hackers or power levelers. It is really stupid and ruins the game in the long run. Yeah they will make a quick bit of "illegal" cash here, but it will hurt them in the long run. You quit because you occasionally get matched up with unfair opponents? Ladder still functions properly 90% of the time and I guarantee you that if you continued to practice and play ladder you would be matching against proper opponents and growing. The very person you quoted was leagues above me at one point, he'd trash me so hard that to most people it would seem like I was wasting my time. But to be able to see that much difference in play helped me grow substantially, it gave me goals outside of going 50/50 on ladder. If you changed your perspective and saw those games as learning experiences and motivation it would help you dramatically. This isn't a problem its just another thing the community lit on fire. Team Liquid needs to lock the thread and come to a formal conclusion before the mob drags peoples reputation through the mud.
Well, I guess maphacking is okay because > 90% of the time you're playing proper opponents? You can't just use that argument.
I don't think it's "lit the community on fire" and I don't think it should. It's not a huge deal imo. But it's still something that should be frowned upon, because it's against the terms of service and it also hurts the integrity of the ladder.
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Surprised so many people are OK with it, but more surprised that those who are OK with it assume that the only way to be opposed to it is to take ladder too seriously. I don't care about ladder beyong where I'm at and I'm not really bothered if a silver player somehow gets to GM. I don't like anyone who cheats in any mulitplayer game though, at all. That's why I think it should be stopped, nothing more.
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On July 19 2012 13:38 Makura wrote: If your gonna pay to get your account level... why not just pay for coaching and actually get better? because then you have to do something yourself... that cant be right?! i dont get it. what the point to be in master or grand master if you cant play in it yourself?
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Does anybody know other top level players than Dragon & Rainbow who publicly offer account leveling (+ sources). These two have their price lists publicly available and Dragon even streams the leveling sessions & sometimes shows his e-mail inbox that recently has contained multiple e-mails with topic "powerleveling" (example at 2:43:22 http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/325107673).
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On July 19 2012 13:07 Zedromas wrote: In my opinion, if you pay 50 bucks for an account, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it...But when you start to make profit on your 50 dollar investment, where do you draw the line? Should Activision get a cut? It's sort of in a fuzzy grey area and I think thats why it's sparked such mixed responses.
you really didnt think hard about this one did you I hope taxi drivers don't have to start paying their car manufacturers because they're making money off of their cars
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Vatican City State582 Posts
what's the big deal?
i only see it as a smurf account that will go inactive in a season
most pros have smurf accounts, so?
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:07 Zedromas wrote: In my opinion, if you pay 50 bucks for an account, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it...But when you start to make profit on your 50 dollar investment, where do you draw the line? Should Activision get a cut? It's sort of in a fuzzy grey area and I think thats why it's sparked such mixed responses.
so the other day, I bought some pencils and started drawing by the coffee shop, and this couple came up to me and said they were very interested in my sketches and wanted to buy them. I told them to buy me a cup of mocha instead of paying me cash.
So, should I have shared the cup of mocha with the shop which sold me the handmade sketchbook and pencil?
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On July 20 2012 00:16 dacimvrl wrote: what's the big deal?
i only see it as a smurf account that will go inactive in a season
most pros have smurf accounts, so? One big difference is that a top level player's smurf will not start from bronze level. If they have had their MMR reset their MMR will start around platinum/diamond level if and when they win all their 5 placement matches. It does not take many matches for them to start facing master level opponents after that.
But if you level a bronze account, it takes some 50 to 100 straight wins to level it up to master. Lots of low level opponents are crushed during that journey. And if the leveler seeks to humiliate his opponents like e.g. Dragon often does, it makes it even worse.
The SC2 userbase is getting smaller and ladder anxiety is a real issue. The ladder is the only competitive arena for large portion of the active players, who are not good enough to compete in tournaments. Powerleveling should be frowned upon and if somebody does it publicly there should be consequences.
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On July 20 2012 00:49 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:16 dacimvrl wrote: what's the big deal?
i only see it as a smurf account that will go inactive in a season
most pros have smurf accounts, so? One big difference is that a top level player's smurf will not start from bronze level. If they have had their MMR reset their MMR will start around platinum/diamond level if and when they win all their 5 placement matches. It does not take many matches for them to start facing master level opponents after that. But if you level a bronze account, it takes some 50 to 100 straight wins to level it up to master. Lots of low level opponents are crushed during that journey. And if the leveler seeks to humiliate his opponents like e.g. Dragon often does, it makes it even worse. The SC2 userbase is getting smaller and ladder anxiety is a real issue. The ladder is the only competitive arena for large portion of the active players, who are not good enough to compete in tournaments. Powerleveling should be frowned upon and if somebody does it publicly there should be consequences.
Lol. Do those low level opponents know the difference? Someone trying to get out of bronze as fast as possible will just 4 gate/2 rax/x pool. I can't imagine a bronze league player will analyze the game and immediately conclude their opponent was several leagues above them on a smurf. And really, if they did come to that conclusion, how often do they analyze ANY game they lose overwhelmingly and conclude it was a smurf for the sake of feeling better? I can just imagine... "Shit, that four gate hit 30 seconds faster than normal. What a fucking smurfer. I NEED TO GO ON TL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS RIGHT AWAY!" It just goes back to the supposed smurfing players who are apparently rampant in low leagues tanking their MMR and fucking with low level players. How in the world do you distinguish a loss where the player doesn't immediately leave? How do you enforce players always playing to their full potential with such objectivity? You can't.
Like, you almost imply the only opponents these players fight are smurfs and that the ladder is such a failure they actually can't compete with their peers which is just total bullshit. Also lol @ ladder anxiety.
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I'd be glad to meet a smurfing pro from time to time, of course I get stomped then but at the same time it's nice to be remembered how far the road to pro-ism really is
This coming from a guy who was around 2 wins 60 losses on BW ICCUP, so apparently I'm a little masochistic in this way.
On Topic: Solution is easy! Just remove grandmaster or make it a league like every other, I really dont get why it hasnt happened already. Playing good at the beginning of a season grants you a spot among the *best 200* from your area for like 2-3 months. wtf. For sure getting in is hard but dropping out seems to me being even more challenging
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These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall.
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On July 19 2012 23:30 ______z wrote: you really didnt think hard about this one did you I hope taxi drivers don't have to start paying their car manufacturers because they're making money off of their cars
On July 20 2012 00:27 dacimvrl wrote: so the other day, I bought some pencils and started drawing by the coffee shop, and this couple came up to me and said they were very interested in my sketches and wanted to buy them. I told them to buy me a cup of mocha instead of paying me cash.
So, should I have shared the cup of mocha with the shop which sold me the handmade sketchbook and pencil?
The point I was trying to make is not that I think Activision should get more money, it's that THEY think they should get more money. Doesnt GSL have to purchase the rights to Starcraft to be able to hold big tournamentss? They make huge profits off of the advertisements and fanfare brough in by the name of the game.
When you buy a car there is already the understanding that you can do whatever the hell you want with it. If I purchase a brand new Porsche I can go and drive it off a cliff if I like. I can resell it, pay someone to make it better, give it away...these types of boundaries arent as well known or clearly defined in the virtual world so it's hard to say whether a pro should be allowed to make money by abusing the ladder system and people's laziness.
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On July 20 2012 02:52 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 00:49 korona wrote:On July 20 2012 00:16 dacimvrl wrote: what's the big deal?
i only see it as a smurf account that will go inactive in a season
most pros have smurf accounts, so? One big difference is that a top level player's smurf will not start from bronze level. If they have had their MMR reset their MMR will start around platinum/diamond level if and when they win all their 5 placement matches. It does not take many matches for them to start facing master level opponents after that. But if you level a bronze account, it takes some 50 to 100 straight wins to level it up to master. Lots of low level opponents are crushed during that journey. And if the leveler seeks to humiliate his opponents like e.g. Dragon often does, it makes it even worse. The SC2 userbase is getting smaller and ladder anxiety is a real issue. The ladder is the only competitive arena for large portion of the active players, who are not good enough to compete in tournaments. Powerleveling should be frowned upon and if somebody does it publicly there should be consequences. Lol. Do those low level opponents know the difference? Someone trying to get out of bronze as fast as possible will just 4 gate/2 rax/x pool. I can't imagine a bronze league player will analyze the game and immediately conclude their opponent was several leagues above them on a smurf. And really, if they did come to that conclusion, how often do they analyze ANY game they lose overwhelmingly and conclude it was a smurf for the sake of feeling better? I can just imagine... " Shit, that four gate hit 30 seconds faster than normal. What a fucking smurfer. I NEED TO GO ON TL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS RIGHT AWAY!" It just goes back to the supposed smurfing players who are apparently rampant in low leagues tanking their MMR and fucking with low level players. How in the world do you distinguish a loss where the player doesn't immediately leave? How do you enforce players always playing to their full potential with such objectivity? You can't. There is nothing funny here. Things are not black and white. Yes the lowest level of players most likely do things by a feeling and not take the game too seriously. But there are lots of people between lowest bronze & masters and 'all of them' are 'low level' compared to the professional. RTS games are not casual games. The higher you go, the more dedicated in general people are. Many are trying to improve and care about their ladder rankings. Most likely you have noticed that there are already 'too many' threads about ladder anxiety here in TL and thus you should have understood that it is not a laughing matter, but reality for some people.
On July 20 2012 02:52 rd wrote: Like, you almost imply the only opponents these players fight are smurfs and that the ladder is such a failure they actually can't compete with their peers which is just total bullshit. Also lol @ ladder anxiety. Things are not black and white. I am not implying that most players at lower levels are smurfs. It should be easy for anybody to understand that the smurfs are a minority at any level. But even minorities can affect individuals experience. For example if gamer A commits one evening per week for SC2 (~ 5 games) and he is unlucky and gets paired with a smurf, then suddenly a significant portion of his opponents that evening were smurfs.
And yes. The lowest level of casual players do not care about community sites and come here shouting when they face a smurf. But it is little puzzling when some people seem to come here shouting how it is ok to cheat the system and how people should not complain about it.
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On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall.
It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM?
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I'm sure tons of people have already said this in the thread, but paying to have someone "level" your account just makes zero sense at all.
As far as punishment, I don't think the effort required to catch and punish these people really would be worth it, as they aren't really hurting anyone, other than you may randomly happen upon playing some progamer who's account is in platinum or diamond and get destroyed. It's really up to Blizzard if they think it's worth spending resources on it.
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I still find it hilarious how some consider this a serious threat to the "competitive integrity" of the ladder, while GM on the most competitive server (KR) has more anonymous barcode accounts than ones with proper names. Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive (unlike hacking, for instance) - it just makes ranks and points less meaningful. Still, this is a weird thing to be upset about, since it's Blizzard themselves who cooked up this weird league/division system with hidden MMR and extremely unclear promotion/demotion criteria.
In essence, if you want ladder rank to mean something, convince Blizzard to change GM and make MMR visible for everyone. As opposed to complaining about fringe phenomena like this.
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If you're willing to pay to have your SC2 account power-laddered to Grandmaster, surely you'd be willing to pay a professional gamer money to give you coaching lessons and perhaps get you to that level.
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On July 20 2012 04:50 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:52 rd wrote:On July 20 2012 00:49 korona wrote:On July 20 2012 00:16 dacimvrl wrote: what's the big deal?
i only see it as a smurf account that will go inactive in a season
most pros have smurf accounts, so? One big difference is that a top level player's smurf will not start from bronze level. If they have had their MMR reset their MMR will start around platinum/diamond level if and when they win all their 5 placement matches. It does not take many matches for them to start facing master level opponents after that. But if you level a bronze account, it takes some 50 to 100 straight wins to level it up to master. Lots of low level opponents are crushed during that journey. And if the leveler seeks to humiliate his opponents like e.g. Dragon often does, it makes it even worse. The SC2 userbase is getting smaller and ladder anxiety is a real issue. The ladder is the only competitive arena for large portion of the active players, who are not good enough to compete in tournaments. Powerleveling should be frowned upon and if somebody does it publicly there should be consequences. Lol. Do those low level opponents know the difference? Someone trying to get out of bronze as fast as possible will just 4 gate/2 rax/x pool. I can't imagine a bronze league player will analyze the game and immediately conclude their opponent was several leagues above them on a smurf. And really, if they did come to that conclusion, how often do they analyze ANY game they lose overwhelmingly and conclude it was a smurf for the sake of feeling better? I can just imagine... " Shit, that four gate hit 30 seconds faster than normal. What a fucking smurfer. I NEED TO GO ON TL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS RIGHT AWAY!" It just goes back to the supposed smurfing players who are apparently rampant in low leagues tanking their MMR and fucking with low level players. How in the world do you distinguish a loss where the player doesn't immediately leave? How do you enforce players always playing to their full potential with such objectivity? You can't. There is nothing funny here. Things are not black and white. Yes the lowest level of players most likely do things by a feeling and not take the game too seriously. But there are lots of people between lowest bronze & masters and 'all of them' are 'low level' compared to the professional. RTS games are not casual games. The higher you go, the more dedicated in general people are. Many are trying to improve and care about their ladder rankings. Most likely you have noticed that there are already 'too many' threads about ladder anxiety here in TL and thus you should have understood that it is not a laughing matter, but reality for some people. Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:52 rd wrote: Like, you almost imply the only opponents these players fight are smurfs and that the ladder is such a failure they actually can't compete with their peers which is just total bullshit. Also lol @ ladder anxiety. Things are not black and white. I am not implying that most players at lower levels are smurfs. It should be easy for anybody to understand that the smurfs are a minority at any level. But even minorities can affect individuals experience. For example if gamer A commits one evening per week for SC2 (~ 5 games) and he is unlucky and gets paired with a smurf, then suddenly a significant portion of his opponents that evening were smurfs. And yes. The lowest level of casual players do not care about community sites and come here shouting when they face a smurf. But it is little puzzling when some people seem to come here shouting how it is ok to cheat the system and how people should not complain about it.
When did I say people weren't trying to improve their ranking? I assure you, that most likely, 95-99% of players have not been affected by this. The 1% who actually were affected this probably didn't even know it was a smurf 90% of the time. I just don't see any posts about players pointing to games with an actual smurf they lost horrendously to and how traumatized they were -- but thats probably because I just don't read them. Not consecutive games. Not a majority of games in a sample. Not even often, nor frequently. Just once. It probably happens more often than we realize but it's simply distinguishing differences between what is ultimately a loss.
I probably ran into a couple smurfs too. I'd have no idea though because I don't check every opponent I fight to see if they were a smurf, and if they were I wouldn't really care otherwise. If anything had I known, the replay would have been that much more valuable to me. One of the reasons why some people pay for this service is to get games vs much higher level players and getting to see the stark contrast in skill play out so they have a reference to improve upon.
And still, ladder anxiety. lol. The ridiculous irony is that part of the reason for ladder anxiety is created by the very ladder system whose integrity you're trying to uphold.
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Doesn't this also mean that all the people like ST_Bomber, MKP, Creator, and the IM teamhouse would get banned? We all know that IM_TV is a GM account used a lot by IM players when they decide to stream. Bomber has his main and Ares, MKP and Creator have god knows how many barcode accounts. Hell, in that case then HuK should get banned cuz of Sad, Depression, and his main.
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On July 20 2012 05:41 Whatson wrote: Doesn't this also mean that all the people like ST_Bomber, MKP, Creator, and the IM teamhouse would get banned? We all know that IM_TV is a GM account used a lot by IM players when they decide to stream. Bomber has his main and Ares, MKP and Creator have god knows how many barcode accounts. Hell, in that case then HuK should get banned cuz of Sad, Depression, and his main.
I don't have any problem with people leveling up multiple accounts if they feel it necessary, especially if its a barcode account. The issue I have with doing it for others is that it gives them legitimacy not deserved. For example, that person would say that they are GM and would offer coaching. Or they'd simply use it to brag and act like they knew what they were talking about.
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On July 20 2012 05:45 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:41 Whatson wrote: Doesn't this also mean that all the people like ST_Bomber, MKP, Creator, and the IM teamhouse would get banned? We all know that IM_TV is a GM account used a lot by IM players when they decide to stream. Bomber has his main and Ares, MKP and Creator have god knows how many barcode accounts. Hell, in that case then HuK should get banned cuz of Sad, Depression, and his main. I don't have any problem with people leveling up multiple accounts if they feel it necessary, especially if its a barcode account. The issue I have with doing it for others is that it gives them legitimacy not deserved. For example, that person would say that they are GM and would offer coaching. Or they'd simply use it to brag and act like they knew what they were talking about.
Why do you give a fuck what people do with their accounts?
Do you also think black belts should be illegal for market because with them people can lie that they are good at Karate when they are not.
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On July 20 2012 05:38 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:50 korona wrote:On July 20 2012 02:52 rd wrote:On July 20 2012 00:49 korona wrote:On July 20 2012 00:16 dacimvrl wrote: what's the big deal?
i only see it as a smurf account that will go inactive in a season
most pros have smurf accounts, so? One big difference is that a top level player's smurf will not start from bronze level. If they have had their MMR reset their MMR will start around platinum/diamond level if and when they win all their 5 placement matches. It does not take many matches for them to start facing master level opponents after that. But if you level a bronze account, it takes some 50 to 100 straight wins to level it up to master. Lots of low level opponents are crushed during that journey. And if the leveler seeks to humiliate his opponents like e.g. Dragon often does, it makes it even worse. The SC2 userbase is getting smaller and ladder anxiety is a real issue. The ladder is the only competitive arena for large portion of the active players, who are not good enough to compete in tournaments. Powerleveling should be frowned upon and if somebody does it publicly there should be consequences. Lol. Do those low level opponents know the difference? Someone trying to get out of bronze as fast as possible will just 4 gate/2 rax/x pool. I can't imagine a bronze league player will analyze the game and immediately conclude their opponent was several leagues above them on a smurf. And really, if they did come to that conclusion, how often do they analyze ANY game they lose overwhelmingly and conclude it was a smurf for the sake of feeling better? I can just imagine... " Shit, that four gate hit 30 seconds faster than normal. What a fucking smurfer. I NEED TO GO ON TL AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS RIGHT AWAY!" It just goes back to the supposed smurfing players who are apparently rampant in low leagues tanking their MMR and fucking with low level players. How in the world do you distinguish a loss where the player doesn't immediately leave? How do you enforce players always playing to their full potential with such objectivity? You can't. There is nothing funny here. Things are not black and white. Yes the lowest level of players most likely do things by a feeling and not take the game too seriously. But there are lots of people between lowest bronze & masters and 'all of them' are 'low level' compared to the professional. RTS games are not casual games. The higher you go, the more dedicated in general people are. Many are trying to improve and care about their ladder rankings. Most likely you have noticed that there are already 'too many' threads about ladder anxiety here in TL and thus you should have understood that it is not a laughing matter, but reality for some people. On July 20 2012 02:52 rd wrote: Like, you almost imply the only opponents these players fight are smurfs and that the ladder is such a failure they actually can't compete with their peers which is just total bullshit. Also lol @ ladder anxiety. Things are not black and white. I am not implying that most players at lower levels are smurfs. It should be easy for anybody to understand that the smurfs are a minority at any level. But even minorities can affect individuals experience. For example if gamer A commits one evening per week for SC2 (~ 5 games) and he is unlucky and gets paired with a smurf, then suddenly a significant portion of his opponents that evening were smurfs. And yes. The lowest level of casual players do not care about community sites and come here shouting when they face a smurf. But it is little puzzling when some people seem to come here shouting how it is ok to cheat the system and how people should not complain about it. When did I say people weren't trying to improve their ranking? I assure you, that most likely, 95-99% of players have not been affected by this. The 1% who actually were affected this probably didn't even know it was a smurf 90% of the time. I just don't see any posts about players pointing to games with an actual smurf they lost horrendously to and how traumatized they were -- but thats probably because I just don't read them. Not consecutive games. Not a majority of games in a sample. Not even often, nor frequently. Just once. It probably happens more often than we realize but it's simply distinguishing differences between what is ultimately a loss. I probably ran into a couple smurfs too. I'd have no idea though because I don't check every opponent I fight to see if they were a smurf, and if they were I wouldn't really care otherwise. If anything had I known, the replay would have been that much more valuable to me. One of the reasons why some people pay for this service is to get games vs much higher level players and getting to see the stark contrast in skill play out so they have a reference to improve upon. And still, ladder anxiety. lol. The ridiculous irony is that part of the reason for ladder anxiety is created by the very ladder system whose integrity you're trying to uphold. You also stated earlier e.g. that powerleveling has ruined the game for less than 10 people. You often generalize things and state extremes. Instead of arguing that people who are concerned about MMR abuse, powerleveling & smurfing are misguided, it would be better for you to try explain why you think cheating the system & MMR abuse is ok.
Even if the smurfs are not the main topic of this thread, I would say that all active players (who have lots of matches under their belt) have faced plenty of smurfs, even if they do not know it (Of course the portion of the smurf matches of all matches is low). This should be obvious e.g. by observing (exception high masters) how suddenly the portion of opponents leaving the game in the beginning of match suddenly rises when the ladder is locked in the end of the season. By viewing the match histories it is obvious that many of these end-of-the-season-leavers are actually MMR abusers who want to smurf during the next season.
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On July 20 2012 06:04 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:45 ronpaul012 wrote:On July 20 2012 05:41 Whatson wrote: Doesn't this also mean that all the people like ST_Bomber, MKP, Creator, and the IM teamhouse would get banned? We all know that IM_TV is a GM account used a lot by IM players when they decide to stream. Bomber has his main and Ares, MKP and Creator have god knows how many barcode accounts. Hell, in that case then HuK should get banned cuz of Sad, Depression, and his main. I don't have any problem with people leveling up multiple accounts if they feel it necessary, especially if its a barcode account. The issue I have with doing it for others is that it gives them legitimacy not deserved. For example, that person would say that they are GM and would offer coaching. Or they'd simply use it to brag and act like they knew what they were talking about. Why do you give a fuck what people do with their accounts? Do you also think black belts should be illegal for market because with them people can lie that they are good at Karate when they are not.
If that person with that black belt around their waste then uses it to leverage an advantage, or even worse, make money off of it, then yes I have a problem with it.
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Personally I'm surprised that this is something that the SC2 community would accept, let alone in some cases defend, while it is not so big an issue that it would destroy the scene, it has the potential to significantly retard an up and coming players progress to becoming pro.
The biggest point people seem to use defending this is that pro-gamers need money and this is a way for them to supplement their income, that's not an acceptable excuse to abuse the system, that is a problem that their teams need to face. If their income is insufficient to sustain their career then their team management is failing them and they need to look at their contract and other options. In any sport sponsorship works off how well you do and the exposure you get, and until you're at the extreme highest levels of pay players in general are not paid a wage that completely supports them, it changes from sport to sport depending on the following and money in it, but even if you look at professional motorcycling there are riders in what would be considered very high levels of the competition who still need to work a job in order to support themselves. E-Sports is very young, the exposure is much smaller and so you can expect that a lot less of the player base would be able to completely support themselves financially by playing. This does not give them an excuse to abuse the system.
It hurts aspiring semi-pro players by limiting their exposure and sponsorship options, every comment on here is about how GM doesn't matter, everyone is still trying to get in to GM however. Being in GM broadcasts your name to anyone interested on your sever and while people following the scene closely will know the flaws in the ladder system people and potential sponsors taking a passing interest in the scene are immediately informed that the GM players are the very best 200 players on that server and that impacts them, if I have an aspiring pro player come up to me seeking some low level of sponsorship and a quick internet search shows me that he's not able to achieve even the top 200 on a server, what faith will that give me in his abilities to broadcast my companies name in tournaments?
Lastly I can see this eventually damaging the integrity of tournaments, the assumption is being made in this thread that the issue stops with leveling. If pro-gamers are supported in basically creating "fame" for other people for money I can see little stopping them from eventually playing under other peoples accounts in low-mid level online tournaments or even tournaments where they see themselves being knocked out of early, they get money, they get extra games at a high level to train with and as long as the tournament is online they can remain completely anonymous and severely slowing down the career progression of the semi-pro players who would have otherwise used that tournament to get exposure.
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On July 20 2012 07:45 yamtaro wrote: Personally I'm surprised that this is something that the SC2 community would accept, let alone in some cases defend, while it is not so big an issue that it would destroy the scene, it has the potential to significantly retard an up and coming players progress to becoming pro.
The biggest point people seem to use defending this is that pro-gamers need money and this is a way for them to supplement their income, that's not an acceptable excuse to abuse the system, that is a problem that their teams need to face. If their income is insufficient to sustain their career then their team management is failing them and they need to look at their contract and other options. In any sport sponsorship works off how well you do and the exposure you get, and until you're at the extreme highest levels of pay players in general are not paid a wage that completely supports them, it changes from sport to sport depending on the following and money in it, but even if you look at professional motorcycling there are riders in what would be considered very high levels of the competition who still need to work a job in order to support themselves. E-Sports is very young, the exposure is much smaller and so you can expect that a lot less of the player base would be able to completely support themselves financially by playing. This does not give them an excuse to abuse the system.
It hurts aspiring semi-pro players by limiting their exposure and sponsorship options, every comment on here is about how GM doesn't matter, everyone is still trying to get in to GM however. Being in GM broadcasts your name to anyone interested on your sever and while people following the scene closely will know the flaws in the ladder system people and potential sponsors taking a passing interest in the scene are immediately informed that the GM players are the very best 200 players on that server and that impacts them, if I have an aspiring pro player come up to me seeking some low level of sponsorship and a quick internet search shows me that he's not able to achieve even the top 200 on a server, what faith will that give me in his abilities to broadcast my companies name in tournaments?
Lastly I can see this eventually damaging the integrity of tournaments, the assumption is being made in this thread that the issue stops with leveling. If pro-gamers are supported in basically creating "fame" for other people for money I can see little stopping them from eventually playing under other peoples accounts in low-mid level online tournaments or even tournaments where they see themselves being knocked out of early, they get money, they get extra games at a high level to train with and as long as the tournament is online they can remain completely anonymous and severely slowing down the career progression of the semi-pro players who would have otherwise used that tournament to get exposure. the problem with this argument is that you could also use it to condemn pros who have multiple accounts in GM. that's basically what leveling an account is. you're paying a pro to give you one of his accounts (functionally).
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I really don't think anyone should expel energy caring about this...
It's just ladder, progamers would aren't making the big bucks can supplement their meager income from idiots, the person will fall back down once they do play. It's the same as having multiple accounts, pretty much
Just seems like you want to start a reddit like witch hunt to me. :/
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Which pro's offered powerleveling then guys?
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On July 20 2012 07:45 yamtaro wrote: Personally I'm surprised that this is something that the SC2 community would accept, let alone in some cases defend, while it is not so big an issue that it would destroy the scene, it has the potential to significantly retard an up and coming players progress to becoming pro.
The biggest point people seem to use defending this is that pro-gamers need money and this is a way for them to supplement their income, that's not an acceptable excuse to abuse the system, that is a problem that their teams need to face. If their income is insufficient to sustain their career then their team management is failing them and they need to look at their contract and other options. In any sport sponsorship works off how well you do and the exposure you get, and until you're at the extreme highest levels of pay players in general are not paid a wage that completely supports them, it changes from sport to sport depending on the following and money in it, but even if you look at professional motorcycling there are riders in what would be considered very high levels of the competition who still need to work a job in order to support themselves. E-Sports is very young, the exposure is much smaller and so you can expect that a lot less of the player base would be able to completely support themselves financially by playing. This does not give them an excuse to abuse the system.
It hurts aspiring semi-pro players by limiting their exposure and sponsorship options, every comment on here is about how GM doesn't matter, everyone is still trying to get in to GM however. Being in GM broadcasts your name to anyone interested on your sever and while people following the scene closely will know the flaws in the ladder system people and potential sponsors taking a passing interest in the scene are immediately informed that the GM players are the very best 200 players on that server and that impacts them, if I have an aspiring pro player come up to me seeking some low level of sponsorship and a quick internet search shows me that he's not able to achieve even the top 200 on a server, what faith will that give me in his abilities to broadcast my companies name in tournaments?
Lastly I can see this eventually damaging the integrity of tournaments, the assumption is being made in this thread that the issue stops with leveling. If pro-gamers are supported in basically creating "fame" for other people for money I can see little stopping them from eventually playing under other peoples accounts in low-mid level online tournaments or even tournaments where they see themselves being knocked out of early, they get money, they get extra games at a high level to train with and as long as the tournament is online they can remain completely anonymous and severely slowing down the career progression of the semi-pro players who would have otherwise used that tournament to get exposure.
Can you give me an example of a player who made it into the pro scene through his grandmaster status alone, or by large part due to his grandmaster status?
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On July 20 2012 11:38 Harbinger631 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 07:45 yamtaro wrote: Personally I'm surprised that this is something that the SC2 community would accept, let alone in some cases defend, while it is not so big an issue that it would destroy the scene, it has the potential to significantly retard an up and coming players progress to becoming pro.
The biggest point people seem to use defending this is that pro-gamers need money and this is a way for them to supplement their income, that's not an acceptable excuse to abuse the system, that is a problem that their teams need to face. If their income is insufficient to sustain their career then their team management is failing them and they need to look at their contract and other options. In any sport sponsorship works off how well you do and the exposure you get, and until you're at the extreme highest levels of pay players in general are not paid a wage that completely supports them, it changes from sport to sport depending on the following and money in it, but even if you look at professional motorcycling there are riders in what would be considered very high levels of the competition who still need to work a job in order to support themselves. E-Sports is very young, the exposure is much smaller and so you can expect that a lot less of the player base would be able to completely support themselves financially by playing. This does not give them an excuse to abuse the system.
It hurts aspiring semi-pro players by limiting their exposure and sponsorship options, every comment on here is about how GM doesn't matter, everyone is still trying to get in to GM however. Being in GM broadcasts your name to anyone interested on your sever and while people following the scene closely will know the flaws in the ladder system people and potential sponsors taking a passing interest in the scene are immediately informed that the GM players are the very best 200 players on that server and that impacts them, if I have an aspiring pro player come up to me seeking some low level of sponsorship and a quick internet search shows me that he's not able to achieve even the top 200 on a server, what faith will that give me in his abilities to broadcast my companies name in tournaments?
Lastly I can see this eventually damaging the integrity of tournaments, the assumption is being made in this thread that the issue stops with leveling. If pro-gamers are supported in basically creating "fame" for other people for money I can see little stopping them from eventually playing under other peoples accounts in low-mid level online tournaments or even tournaments where they see themselves being knocked out of early, they get money, they get extra games at a high level to train with and as long as the tournament is online they can remain completely anonymous and severely slowing down the career progression of the semi-pro players who would have otherwise used that tournament to get exposure. Can you give me an example of a player who made it into the pro scene through his grandmaster status alone, or by large part due to his grandmaster status?
Huk is probably the biggest example, there was no GM at that time but you could still see how you stacked up with sc2 ranks. Huk made a name for himself as a ladder warrior, and it took him some time to prove himself as a true player after he signed with Liquid.
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I would argue that Huk's multiple MLG 1st places is what got him into Liquid, not his ladder rank.
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On July 20 2012 05:45 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:41 Whatson wrote: Doesn't this also mean that all the people like ST_Bomber, MKP, Creator, and the IM teamhouse would get banned? We all know that IM_TV is a GM account used a lot by IM players when they decide to stream. Bomber has his main and Ares, MKP and Creator have god knows how many barcode accounts. Hell, in that case then HuK should get banned cuz of Sad, Depression, and his main. I don't have any problem with people leveling up multiple accounts if they feel it necessary, especially if its a barcode account. The issue I have with doing it for others is that it gives them legitimacy not deserved. For example, that person would say that they are GM and would offer coaching. Or they'd simply use it to brag and act like they knew what they were talking about.
You mean like people on the internet?
After watching the tasteless episode of real talk I was a bit skeptical of his harsh words on the community - but seeing how threads like this one evolve and turn nothing of importance into a shitfest, he is completely right and it is unhealthy and irresponsible to go through all this fake outrage. Just rubbish.
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On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM?
Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways.
"Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive"
Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo.
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Who cares if accounts get leveled. It is good practice playing with people better than you anyways.....
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some people want to achieve GM rank on their own to achieve a personal goal. maybe it's not your goal, but it is for others. having others do the work for you is wrong because it takes a spot away from someone who is trying really hard. of course, that might make them work even harder...
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this should not be a big deal at all because nobody takes ladder seriously anyways ^^
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On July 20 2012 12:29 SpecialistSc wrote: this should not be a big deal at all because nobody takes ladder seriously anyways ^^ why bother posting this stupid stuff. From the amount of ragers I see on ladder, it appears almost everybody takes it VERY seriously.
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On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo.
It does not make the ladder any less competitive. It just makes ranks and points less meaningful when determining skill. Which Blizzard's system has a lot more to do with than a bunch of boosted accounts, but I guess complaining about that went out of fashion. Why don't you make a post on the battle.net forums, asking for public MMR and the removal of leagues altogether? Would make a huge difference, as opposed to posting about this irrelevant crap.
It's just really weird to me, the system is intentionally designed to obfuscate a player's true rank, and yet some of you are up in arms about its "competitive integrity". If Blizzard cared about that, the ladder would be identical to the WC3 ladder. It's kind of funny actually, because they put this in place to make casuals less butthurt about their rank - however, LoL has explicit ELO for everyone to see, and a much larger casual playerbase compared to SC2.
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On July 20 2012 15:38 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. It does not make the ladder any less competitive. It just makes ranks and points less meaningful when determining skill.
But major tournaments use ladder ranks as a way of determining open / offline qualifiers.....So it's even worse than just devaluing the competition.
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If this is bad, then it's bad the same way ghostwriting is bad (i.e., distasteful), which is not only a legal practice, but a common one. Overall, I don't see what's wrong with great players being payed to smurf -- all the better if it's streamed so then it's a transparent process with a receipt.
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On July 20 2012 15:56 gorbonic wrote: If this is bad, then it's bad the same way ghostwriting is bad (i.e., distasteful), which is not only a legal practice, but a common one. Overall, I don't see what's wrong with great players being payed to smurf -- all the better if it's streamed so then it's a transparent process with a receipt.
It is much more different than being paid to smurf. People are are paying pro players to grind out wins for their account where as smurfing is just for self use. There are a lot of players trying to either attempt to get better or trying to break into the pro scene and account leveling is essentially ruining the integrity of the ladder. To those saying that ladder doesn't mean anything, some of the greatest players have come from the ladder.
Account leveling should be treated the same way as hacking they both try to gain unfair advantages in someway albeit in different methods it does share similarities.
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On July 20 2012 15:46 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:38 Toadvine wrote:On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. It does not make the ladder any less competitive. It just makes ranks and points less meaningful when determining skill. But major tournaments use ladder ranks as a way of determining open / offline qualifiers.....So it's even worse than just devaluing the competition.
Which tournaments do that, aside from those directly ran by Blizzard?
Honestly, hacking is a much bigger problem, because you can actually be successful in online tournaments with it, as illustrated by the famous Spades vs LucifroN showmatch. Boosting people in tournaments is absolutely pointless, and also very easy to detect.
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The OP needs a poll imho.
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On July 20 2012 12:33 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 12:29 SpecialistSc wrote: this should not be a big deal at all because nobody takes ladder seriously anyways ^^ why bother posting this stupid stuff. From the amount of ragers I see on ladder, it appears almost everybody takes it VERY seriously.
Question: are they taking the ladder serious, are they taking the game serious, or are they just sore losers?
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On July 20 2012 16:14 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:46 Caihead wrote:On July 20 2012 15:38 Toadvine wrote:On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. It does not make the ladder any less competitive. It just makes ranks and points less meaningful when determining skill. But major tournaments use ladder ranks as a way of determining open / offline qualifiers.....So it's even worse than just devaluing the competition. Which tournaments do that, aside from those directly ran by Blizzard? Honestly, hacking is a much bigger problem, because you can actually be successful in online tournaments with it, as illustrated by the famous Spades vs LucifroN showmatch. Boosting people in tournaments is absolutely pointless, and also very easy to detect.
I think the GSL did that back in the days. At least for Korean participants.
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On July 20 2012 16:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 16:14 Toadvine wrote:On July 20 2012 15:46 Caihead wrote:On July 20 2012 15:38 Toadvine wrote:On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. It does not make the ladder any less competitive. It just makes ranks and points less meaningful when determining skill. But major tournaments use ladder ranks as a way of determining open / offline qualifiers.....So it's even worse than just devaluing the competition. Which tournaments do that, aside from those directly ran by Blizzard? Honestly, hacking is a much bigger problem, because you can actually be successful in online tournaments with it, as illustrated by the famous Spades vs LucifroN showmatch. Boosting people in tournaments is absolutely pointless, and also very easy to detect. I think the GSL did that back in the days. At least for Korean participants.
Yeah, but that was before Master league went online, and I guess they were afraid of thousands of people showing up for the qualifiers. Ever since GSL January 2011, I believe you just need to be in Masters in order to participate.
On an unrelated note, I'd like someone to actually give an honest example of a player who gained recognition because they got into GM. And please, don't be disingenuous and bring up players who sat in Top10 for extended periods of time (like Bomber, DRG, Creator, PartinG, and so forth) before their tournament breakout. If a player is good enough to do that, no amount of smurfs will stop them. Similarly, bringing up HuK as an example is hilariously stupid. HuK had a lot of success in online tournaments in the early days of SC2, and proceeded to win the first big LAN (MLG Raleigh). There wasn't even any way to tell who was on top of the ladder back then anyway, since Blizzard hadn't started to publish their Top200 lists yet.
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The only reason I think this is okay is because once the original person gets back their account and starts playing on ladder, their rank will most definitely fall and eventually they will be demoted to where they belong. I am not sure how long the process will take, but I am more than positive that it will happen.
I feel so bad that professional players have to resort to such services to get pocket money.....poor guys. (pun seriously not intended)
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well it's odd actually.I understand what the people against it are saying and I feel like partially they are correct. On the other hand people that have their accounts leveled basically cant play the game. Take for example a bronze/silver/gold/plat that got his account boosted to high masters. If the real player starts playing he'll get absolutely demolished game after game. So basically they are paying just for bragging rights, not beeing able to play anymore and pray no real high player challenge them...
it is sad that it takes a spot from a player that DID deserve his place there and it's sad pro's have to resort to this to earn money. So yeah I think if caught it should be punished in the end
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who the fuck cares dude, it's not violating or some shit. just makes the people who pay the pros look like a dumb joke. i don't understand why u can't do it yourself... i went from bronze to masters with no help, and it's easy
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Lol this is the next "he wasn't really masters I KNOW it, i didn't lose cos i played crap, the other guy is clearly a maphacker/prosmurfer"
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On July 16 2012 16:53 iRon aka bananajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:44 Talin wrote:On July 16 2012 16:39 IntoTheheart wrote: How does this work exactly?
So I give my account to fOrGG who will boost my account to GM, at which point I'll lose a ton of games (because I'm personally NOT at Korea GM level) and then eventually lose my spot right? Or you can just not play at all and show off your fancy GM icon for the rest of the season and put something like "GM Terran NA" in your TL sig, which I believe is the incentive for most of these people, rather than actually wanting to play in GM. when you dont play you will loose your spot due to the bonus pool and when you play you will loose the spot due to loosing all games, because you are not gm level.
Good job on actually reading the OP!
They just pay for GM and for the Pro to play a few games on the account per week to keep it in GM. The problem is not that idiots have high MMR, but that they're taking away limited GM spots from people who legitimately work at getting GM.
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Certain featured streamers have leveled accounts on stream and then been told by TL mods to stop
Told by tl mods to stop? what do tl mods have to say about this, well i guess they could make them non featured. Annyway:This should be a case for blizzard mods as its cheating?
Bit suprised this is happening in sc btw,it is well known in other games though (account levelling services by bots) Dont see the purpose for sc , you can get your account levelled to gm but then once you start playing on it with your diamond or lower level, you will be back down in diamond on no time. You only get to play a few games against gm,s (who will all see you are terrible and have a levelled account,so you wont get their respect and recognition either) and then you back in your own league. Suprised that people willing to pay for this, and even more suprised pro players are helping with this, though i dont think its a huge deal. Can somehow understand the pro players though dont agree with it off course they have to make a living somehow and not everyone wins big price monney consistantly.
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This is sad, but let's leave it at that and not make a problem out of it.
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Well done on a well written post. I wish more peoples posts were like yours. But I have to disagree with the leveling. Some people cannot get out of silver because of cheese, etc. Or maybe they want to brag to their friends they're in GrandMasters. I don't see anything wrong with pro-gamers leveling accounts. This isn't World of Warcraft, or Guild Wars, or Diablo 3. Leveling the account will help nobody, and I don't believe it ruins the integrity of anything.
When I was playing SC2 more and got top masters...I actually offered a leveling service for $5 an hour. And had people pay me to level their account, multiple times. There is many pro-gamers, there is not a lot of money. So if people want to pay for their account to get leveled, so be it.
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On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo.
So.... how do you suppose Pro's play at events outside of Pro house, since they'd have different IP? Actually, how would Pro house even work since all comp would have same IP?
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I'm outraged that I'm not outraged at this very important issue...
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On July 20 2012 21:03 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. So.... how do you suppose Pro's play at events outside of Pro house, since they'd have different IP? Actually, how would Pro house even work since all comp would have same IP?
Dude, account A logs on at noon from northern europe, 30 minutes later same account logs with an IP from sunny california - doesn't take some massive detective work to check these things out.
Or were you just replying for the sake of replying.
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On July 20 2012 21:18 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:03 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. So.... how do you suppose Pro's play at events outside of Pro house, since they'd have different IP? Actually, how would Pro house even work since all comp would have same IP? Dude, account A logs on at noon from northern europe, 30 minutes later same account logs with an IP from sunny california - doesn't take some massive detective work to check these things out. Or were you just replying for the sake of replying.
How about Account A logs on at noon from northern Europoe, 24hr later same account log with an IP from sunny California, do you ban that one? What about Account B logs on at noon from northern Europe, 30 minutes later same account log with a different IP from northern Europe? What about Account C logs on at noon from northern Europe, 4hr later same account log with an IP from southern Europe?
Also, you ever heard of Proxy server?
And you didn't explain how Pro house can work when they all share same IP.
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On July 20 2012 21:18 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:03 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 12:05 TRaFFiC wrote:On July 20 2012 04:58 ragz_gt wrote:On July 20 2012 04:14 TRaFFiC wrote: These people should all be banned and furthermore, there should only be 1 account allowed in GM per person. It's disrespectful to the high masters trying to squeeze in and bad for GROWTH of sc2 overall. It's a good idea, how do you propose to do it? People have to send in their ID and submit a form to get in GM? Whatever it takes. IP can be used to link accounts. I used to play other games where they banned people from IP consistently. I'm not so in the know, but I know they're ways. "Account sharing (which boosting is a form of) does not make the ladder less competitive" Of course it does since I bet my bottom dollar these people let these accounts sit inactive. Having inactive accounts in the highest ranks of the world is horrible. Wake up and smell the coffee, yo. So.... how do you suppose Pro's play at events outside of Pro house, since they'd have different IP? Actually, how would Pro house even work since all comp would have same IP? Dude, account A logs on at noon from northern europe, 30 minutes later same account logs with an IP from sunny california - doesn't take some massive detective work to check these things out. Or were you just replying for the sake of replying.
Could've just been proxying.
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Sorry, people play starcraft through proxies? What's the point>
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On July 20 2012 23:58 Kaiyotic wrote: Sorry, people play starcraft through proxies? What's the point> Doesn't really matter what the point is. IP tracking is unreliable & presumes things about people's lifestyles. It would be a breach of privacy to require people account for why they're accessing the game from a different country, and a massive waste of time when you consider that account leveling isn't even a problem to begin with.
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Can you blame the pros for trying to make a more comfortable living? The scene isn't overflowing with money. Up to Blizzard to find a way to stop it.
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Wouldnt most proxies lag >_< Maybe a VPN though. I know some korean pros use American VPNs when they play on NA(which I'm not sure what the point is since I don't know that much about networking tt)
I dont think it matters though since if Blizzard is serious about this, they should have a system in place that flags accounts whose IPs drastically change within hours.
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On July 21 2012 00:13 Htw wrote: Can you blame the pros for trying to make a more comfortable living? The scene isn't overflowing with money. Up to Blizzard to find a way to stop it.
Really dude? If some families are quite poor, let them steal and dont blame them, because they are trying to make a more confortable living.... Really stupid ideas in this thread...
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I dont see this as a big deal, so you get levelled into a league higher than you actually are . .lets look at it like this
1. If YOU play this leveled char, more likely an easy win for you . . im not complaining but generally you wont see them twice anyway. 2. bit of extra income for the risky person who has decided he wants to play games for a living, not a bad thing, i wish i had the time to commit to being a pro gamer 3. Who exactly is this hurting? Not everyone is doing this, id say a handful of people are actually getting their accounts levelled 4. more money for the company we love. if people are buying new accounts to do this then its extra income so this great company that has graced us with this game will continue to make profits on what has now had its shelf life value. (i bought accounts in different regions to play with friends who moved abroad) 5. LIFE BALANCE. I would say this may be HELPING people, look at me for example, family man, i cant play enogh games a day to get out of silver but been matched with platinums and beat them with ease, and nearly beat all the golds . . Why am i not in gold at least? I would have to grind out (and win)many games, my family disapprove of SC2 as it is! we saw a few pros do a bronze playthrough, they played near 30 games before they started getting matched with golds (they advantage being they won every single one) some games ill forget to do stuff and auto lose, not cool. this point could probably stop a few divorces! 6. Its fun to show off to your one friend you are a GM player and then have to think of a million and one excuses not to play your silver league buddy.
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On July 21 2012 00:13 Htw wrote: Can you blame the pros for trying to make a more comfortable living? The scene isn't overflowing with money. Up to Blizzard to find a way to stop it.
can you blame robbers for trying to make a comfortable living, the streets arent overflowing with money.
if you cant make money playing starcraft, the solution is to do something else, not to fuck with other people on the ladder.
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I'm not sure how people can support this. It isn't really an honest way to make money. If they need money, they should coach, sell replays(this might be against the TOS though so maybe not), enter more tournaments, stream more etc.
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I've been levelling TL and Reddit accounts.
Just sold a "quality poster" 4600 post TL account and a 4000/16000 link/comment karma reddit account.
PM me for details on how you can take your forum game to the next level.
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On July 21 2012 00:25 ABear wrote: I'm not sure how people can support this. It isn't really an honest way to make money. If they need money, they should coach, sell replays(this might be against the TOS though so maybe not), enter more tournaments, stream more etc. What's dishonest about it? This hurts actually no one. It's exactly the same as pros leveling up multiple accounts into GM.
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On July 21 2012 00:30 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:25 ABear wrote: I'm not sure how people can support this. It isn't really an honest way to make money. If they need money, they should coach, sell replays(this might be against the TOS though so maybe not), enter more tournaments, stream more etc. What's dishonest about it? This hurts actually no one. It's exactly the same as pros leveling up multiple accounts into GM.
yes, this is a bigger problem. i cant get into GM cos naniwa and his RO32 mates have 12 accounts in there! (just using him as example . . chill ur beans people)
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People use this service, get on the forums and say "Coming from a Masters..."
Lol
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On July 21 2012 00:42 StatixEx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:30 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 00:25 ABear wrote: I'm not sure how people can support this. It isn't really an honest way to make money. If they need money, they should coach, sell replays(this might be against the TOS though so maybe not), enter more tournaments, stream more etc. What's dishonest about it? This hurts actually no one. It's exactly the same as pros leveling up multiple accounts into GM. yes, this is a bigger problem. i cant get into GM cos naniwa and his RO32 mates have 12 accounts in there! (just using him as example . . chill ur beans people) So what? All of those accounts were purchased.
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I personally don't care about it, but I can see why people think it's wrong. The problem is when people expecting Blizzard to do something intelligent about it without screw over everyone else. I don't want to HAVE to use an authenticator (which I actually have to do now since Blizzard already got to it with D3, in that if you use RMAH to sell stuff without authenticator, you can expect your account to be suspended every other day) just because some people want to pay money to get their account into GM.
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Well, you must be realy dumb if you need that.
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On July 21 2012 00:21 StatixEx wrote: I dont see this as a big deal, so you get levelled into a league higher than you actually are . .lets look at it like this
1. If YOU play this leveled char, more likely an easy win for you . . im not complaining but generally you wont see them twice anyway. 2. bit of extra income for the risky person who has decided he wants to play games for a living, not a bad thing, i wish i had the time to commit to being a pro gamer 3. Who exactly is this hurting? Not everyone is doing this, id say a handful of people are actually getting their accounts levelled 4. more money for the company we love. if people are buying new accounts to do this then its extra income so this great company that has graced us with this game will continue to make profits on what has now had its shelf life value. (i bought accounts in different regions to play with friends who moved abroad) 5. LIFE BALANCE. I would say this may be HELPING people, look at me for example, family man, i cant play enogh games a day to get out of silver but been matched with platinums and beat them with ease, and nearly beat all the golds . . Why am i not in gold at least? I would have to grind out (and win)many games, my family disapprove of SC2 as it is! we saw a few pros do a bronze playthrough, they played near 30 games before they started getting matched with golds (they advantage being they won every single one) some games ill forget to do stuff and auto lose, not cool. this point could probably stop a few divorces! 6. Its fun to show off to your one friend you are a GM player and then have to think of a million and one excuses not to play your silver league buddy.
I don't think we should assume only a "handful" of accounts are being leveled, considering the quotes from ads I put in the OP. I think there's potential for a significant number of GM accounts on EU and NA to be leveled noobs. And I don't think it's valid to call the leveled accounts indistinguishable from pros' smurf accounts. For one, the leveled accounts aren't active. The pro only needs to play some "maintaining" games every now and then to keep the accounts in GM. These accounts are just wasted GM slots. Also, even though it's not ideal to have a bunch of pro smurf accounts in GM (that is, the accounts they actually own), that doesn't make it excusable to add a bunch of leveled accounts on top of that. It's just making a problem worse.
To me, this issue of leveled accounts in GM is the biggest problem here. GM does have meaning. To accept money to get people into GM is robbing a lot of people of an achievement to validate the hard work they put into SC2. It's a selfish thing to do.
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On July 21 2012 00:42 StatixEx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:30 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 00:25 ABear wrote: I'm not sure how people can support this. It isn't really an honest way to make money. If they need money, they should coach, sell replays(this might be against the TOS though so maybe not), enter more tournaments, stream more etc. What's dishonest about it? This hurts actually no one. It's exactly the same as pros leveling up multiple accounts into GM. yes, this is a bigger problem. i cant get into GM cos naniwa and his RO32 mates have 12 accounts in there! (just using him as example . . chill ur beans people)
So... You are using this as a excuse for your inability to get into GM? If you are good enough it'll happen. IF. So if you arent dont delude yourself.
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On July 21 2012 01:26 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:21 StatixEx wrote: I dont see this as a big deal, so you get levelled into a league higher than you actually are . .lets look at it like this
1. If YOU play this leveled char, more likely an easy win for you . . im not complaining but generally you wont see them twice anyway. 2. bit of extra income for the risky person who has decided he wants to play games for a living, not a bad thing, i wish i had the time to commit to being a pro gamer 3. Who exactly is this hurting? Not everyone is doing this, id say a handful of people are actually getting their accounts levelled 4. more money for the company we love. if people are buying new accounts to do this then its extra income so this great company that has graced us with this game will continue to make profits on what has now had its shelf life value. (i bought accounts in different regions to play with friends who moved abroad) 5. LIFE BALANCE. I would say this may be HELPING people, look at me for example, family man, i cant play enogh games a day to get out of silver but been matched with platinums and beat them with ease, and nearly beat all the golds . . Why am i not in gold at least? I would have to grind out (and win)many games, my family disapprove of SC2 as it is! we saw a few pros do a bronze playthrough, they played near 30 games before they started getting matched with golds (they advantage being they won every single one) some games ill forget to do stuff and auto lose, not cool. this point could probably stop a few divorces! 6. Its fun to show off to your one friend you are a GM player and then have to think of a million and one excuses not to play your silver league buddy. I don't think we should assume only a "handful" of accounts are being leveled, considering the quotes from ads I put in the OP. I think there's potential for a significant number of GM accounts on EU and NA to be leveled noobs. And I don't think it's valid to call the leveled accounts indistinguishable from pros' smurf accounts. For one, the leveled accounts aren't active. The pro only needs to play some "maintaining" games every now and then to keep the accounts in GM. These accounts are just wasted GM slots. Also, even though it's not ideal to have a bunch of pro smurf accounts in GM (that is, the accounts they actually own), that doesn't make it excusable to add a bunch of leveled accounts on top of that. It's just making a problem worse. To me, this issue of leveled accounts in GM is the biggest problem here. GM does have meaning. To accept money to get people into GM is robbing a lot of people of an achievement to validate the hard work they put into SC2. It's a selfish thing to do.
The thing is nobody really treats GM like it has any meaning because of the semi stoic nature of GM(how hard it is to get kicked out) and how it doesnt update for the top200 throughout the season.
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On July 21 2012 00:45 ContactKilla wrote: People use this service, get on the forums and say "Coming from a Masters..."
Lol
And then no one takes them seriously cause no one cares about masters. You don't have to take someone's league for granted. If the information they post is incorrect, no league in the world will make them right. Either way, you can just as easily 6 pool to masters (or GM) and be just as clueless.
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Well, if this is the case, then what about higher level players de-leveling themselves on purpose just to have fun owning noobs, doing crazy builds which for them is totally possible with their skills. You may see this as out of context, but the implication is the same, and we just want to have fun. Think a little out of the box, and you'll know that not everyone is taking this game seriously and neither should you. E-Sport as it is meant to be, isn't simply based on ladder points.
Is it frustrating and hurting? Yes, but it definitely doesn't cause harm to anyone in the process. And by you mentioning about power leveling service, you too has just contributed to their service, as I'm sure it's more of a demand problem than the pro-gamers problem. This is not like drugs, where it's illegal and do harm people.
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I really don't get this, they get there account leveled, then when they play they get absolutely destroyed?
Doesn't really matter, enjoy your free win.
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I can't believe people care this much...
Not even /r/starcraft is witch hunting about something this meanginless, and it's trying to start here.
Oh no, stupid people are paying for a leveling service like they do in every other game ever.
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I think progamers lvling up accounts for other people is crap because it actually takes away spots from other people who actually have the skill to earn one. Its also lame that people think its cool because they have a gm account. "hi i'm gm, but i can't beat diamonds" ROFL
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On July 21 2012 02:17 Soma Cruz wrote: I can't believe people care this much...
Not even /r/starcraft is witch hunting about something this meanginless, and it's trying to start here.
Oh no, stupid people are paying for a leveling service like they do in every other game ever. Wondering the same thing... how has this stupid thread gotten so far? Power leveling hurts no one. There may be some useless accounts in GM but how does that affect anyone? A team won't kick someone off because they are only rank 1 Masters and not GM.
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In all honesty I think it's fine in the sense that if you want to pay money for someone to give you a high level account then go for it. You play the game and do things that are fun based on what you see fit. The pro's get extra money and the lower level players get a high ranked account which they can mess around with online and show off.
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Doesn't really matter. The only sensible is that it hurts the competitive integrity of the ladder, which is addressed in a few points. But in the end, the ladder does not have any competitive integrity, as many players known for their high ladder rankings never break through in the real competitive world. Whether you are very high masters or GM, there is little difference when it comes to 1. playing in tournaments 2. getting into clans 3. getting sponsers. Ladder gives you inherently nothing whether you are silver or gm...it's just a training ground and what happens there does not define what will happen in the real competitive world. It's just ez money for the pros, which does little to no harm, so I don't see anything wrong with it/can't blame em.
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Ladder-integrity wise, in the ideal world each player only has one account and only one person plays on each account. But of course from the beginning it was clear that that would be far from the real world. If I have a friend who comes over and he wants to try out SC2 a little bit then of course he will be using my account, even though in principle the situation is the same as what this thread is talking about and the ladder integrity would be disrupted. Of course, this kind of effect is only temporary but real, nevertheless. But in the end, I'm pretty sure this is very old news to Blizzard and also not a big deal by any means.
I personally would not pay for this kind of service even if I would be leveled to GM and would then be given the chance to lose to Stephano in person.
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On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA
Trading and selling accounts is not legal in Europe. Trading and selling licenses is legal in Europe.
A progamer can sell his SC2 license, but legally he is not allowed to play on it anymore, and Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to tie ladder rank and achievements to the Bnet account instead of the license.
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Personally I don't really care about this. Account leveling is against ToS if I remember correctly. Also if you pay someone to level your account that is just sad for 1) new seasons happen and you will have to pay again to attain your rank because 2) you are not that good and it will be shown in your placement match if you try it. Finally 3) you are not learning to play efficiently. As for the Naama friend thing could be or it could be a fan from Naama's stream and gave him NA account to use. There is no reason to speculate useless things.
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On July 21 2012 02:44 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:
- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA Trading and selling accounts is not legal in Europe. Trading and selling licenses is legal in Europe. A progamer can sell his SC2 license, but legally he is not allowed to play on it anymore, and Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to tie ladder rank and achievements to the Bnet account instead of the license.
Are you sure selling licenses is legal? I mean, I think the original EULA already says the SC2 license is non-transferable and non-resellable, isn't that right?
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There is no good solution to it.
If you want stop account sharing / power level? It's actually REALLY simple:
1: mandatory authenticators 2: requirement a government ID to register your battle.net account
There, problem solved.
I don't think that's a trade-offs people are willing to accept for this relatively minor issue though.
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On July 21 2012 02:53 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 02:44 yeint wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:
- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA Trading and selling accounts is not legal in Europe. Trading and selling licenses is legal in Europe. A progamer can sell his SC2 license, but legally he is not allowed to play on it anymore, and Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to tie ladder rank and achievements to the Bnet account instead of the license. Are you sure selling licenses is legal? I mean, I think the original EULA already says the SC2 license is non-transferable and non-resellable, isn't that right?
It's against EULA, but EULA cannot violate EU law, which mandates that all digital sells must be resellable.
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On July 21 2012 02:53 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 02:44 yeint wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:
- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA Trading and selling accounts is not legal in Europe. Trading and selling licenses is legal in Europe. A progamer can sell his SC2 license, but legally he is not allowed to play on it anymore, and Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to tie ladder rank and achievements to the Bnet account instead of the license. Are you sure selling licenses is legal? I mean, I think the original EULA already says the SC2 license is non-transferable and non-resellable, isn't that right?
Yeah, the European courts recently decided you can resell them.
As an aside, wish TL'd close threads that just go round and round. Or disclose the numbers that caused this to be reopened (only seen 2 instances thrown up so far).
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I dont know why this thread has gone on so long. It looks like the major consensus is "who cares."
1) This ranks right up there with Pro's having more than 1 account. So are you going to tell all the Pro players that pratice on more than one account should be banned by Blizzard for breaking their agreement. I think you would have a lot of Pro's outraged.
2) You forget that to stay in GM you have to continuously keep your bonus pool under 180. Which means you have to play several games every two weeks. So whoever you are paying for these services you have to retain indefinitely or you will be kicked out of GM. I'm sure the novelty wears of quickly when you are paying for a account you can't even play.
3) GM has become a bit of a joke. I used to care about being in GM, now many pros are satisfied playing on smurf accounts or practicing in other regions, (NA/KR/EU etc)
4) You mention that a player has the potential of to enter a, possibly elite, team due to misleading circumstances like being ranked GM; however, I don't know if you've ever played with a team, but they do have tryouts. And it will become immediately obvious their "new recruit" is not GM. So that point is easily shot down.
I remember when I was about to claim a spot for GM I saw someone ladder at the same time as me, but he was using a team member, who had the same MMR (and was GM), to ladder snipe at the same time. I thought it was "unfair" at first but then I decided not to get uptight about it and got into GM either way...
I suggest you focus on what is important in life, there will always be this kind of stuff.
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TLDR: Some people are acting retarded and paying for worthless shit. We want to take that option away from them.
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On July 21 2012 02:53 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 02:44 yeint wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:
- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA Trading and selling accounts is not legal in Europe. Trading and selling licenses is legal in Europe. A progamer can sell his SC2 license, but legally he is not allowed to play on it anymore, and Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to tie ladder rank and achievements to the Bnet account instead of the license. Are you sure selling licenses is legal? I mean, I think the original EULA already says the SC2 license is non-transferable and non-resellable, isn't that right?
It's not yet, but a recent court decision will probably lead to it becoming legal in the EU.
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On July 21 2012 03:11 SirPinky wrote: I dont know why this thread has gone on so long. It looks like the major consensus is "who cares."
1) This ranks right up there with Pro's having more than 1 account. So are you going to tell all the Pro players that pratice on more than one account should be banned by Blizzard for breaking their agreement. I think you would have a lot of Pro's outraged.
2) You forget that to stay in GM you have to continuously keep your bonus pool under 180. Which means you have to play several games every two weeks. So whoever you are paying for these services you have to retain indefinitely or you will be kicked out of GM. I'm sure the novelty wears of quickly when you are paying for a account you can't even play.
3) GM has become a bit of a joke. I used to care about being in GM, now many pros are satisfied playing on smurf accounts or practicing in other regions, (NA/KR/EU etc)
4) You mention that a player has the potential of to enter a, possibly elite, team due to misleading circumstances like being ranked GM; however, I don't know if you've ever played with a team, but they do have tryouts. And it will become immediately obvious their "new recruit" is not GM. So that point is easily shot down.
I remember when I was about to claim a spot for GM I saw someone ladder at the same time as me, but he was using a team member, who had the same MMR (and was GM), to ladder snipe at the same time. I thought it was "unfair" at first but then I decided not to get uptight about it and got into GM either way...
I suggest you focus on what is important in life, there will always be this kind of stuff.
There is good reason why pro play on smurf account: make it harder to scout. It would suck to prepare a build for a big tournament, only to have it show up all over the place because your opponent was running a stream at the moment. Or simpler yet, people can just check your match history and see who you are winning / losing against and using what opening on what map (which you can see alot pros do already when they streaming online tournaments).
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Given that the 1v1 player is irrefutably Naama Your evidence is that they have the same hotkeys? People copy pro players all the time.
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On July 23 2012 08:39 AcrosstheSky wrote:Your evidence is that they have the same hotkeys? People copy pro players all the time.
No, he did hotkey analysis, AKA comparing the hotkey usage. That's quite different
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On July 21 2012 03:11 SirPinky wrote: I dont know why this thread has gone on so long. It looks like the major consensus is "who cares."
1) This ranks right up there with Pro's having more than 1 account. So are you going to tell all the Pro players that pratice on more than one account should be banned by Blizzard for breaking their agreement. I think you would have a lot of Pro's outraged.
2) You forget that to stay in GM you have to continuously keep your bonus pool under 180. Which means you have to play several games every two weeks. So whoever you are paying for these services you have to retain indefinitely or you will be kicked out of GM. I'm sure the novelty wears of quickly when you are paying for a account you can't even play.
3) GM has become a bit of a joke. I used to care about being in GM, now many pros are satisfied playing on smurf accounts or practicing in other regions, (NA/KR/EU etc)
4) You mention that a player has the potential of to enter a, possibly elite, team due to misleading circumstances like being ranked GM; however, I don't know if you've ever played with a team, but they do have tryouts. And it will become immediately obvious their "new recruit" is not GM. So that point is easily shot down.
I remember when I was about to claim a spot for GM I saw someone ladder at the same time as me, but he was using a team member, who had the same MMR (and was GM), to ladder snipe at the same time. I thought it was "unfair" at first but then I decided not to get uptight about it and got into GM either way...
I suggest you focus on what is important in life, there will always be this kind of stuff. Haha I remember that queue arranging too. Although point #2 is kind of null, since they can tank their mmr to wherever, stay in gm, and still get +12 per even match, so staying in is rather easy once you're in.
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I don't want to criticise anybody and it's true that progamers have low income compared to the level of skill they need to have and time investment they need to make. Tournament prizes and sponsorship/salary deals should be better than they are.
Also, I don't want to claim this is some kind of big crime. Many of us have probably copied homework, solved tasks for friends/coworkers, covered up for others, signed stuff that isn't true (in a minor matter).
But account levelling is unacceptable for reasons that have already been stated by others. By unnacceptable I don't mean unforgivable or horribly, absolutely wrong. I mean it can't be condoned, it can't be accepted as a part of life.
If you look at it this way, facing a bronze-gold player with a maphack is less unfair on the opponent than facing someone with actual skill several leagues beyond. The advantage in a bronze-gold match from having, say, GM-level skill, is greater than the advantage from maphack. It's not fair for the low leaguers who expect to face someone of their own skill. We don't want SC2 ladder to turn into what the WC3 ladder is believed to be: full of hackers and smurfs.
In addition to destroying games for lower league people, taking up GM spots is not okay (in fact, GM should be 200 top people on the server, not 200 top accounts), taking up Master spots (top 2% of the diamond base) for people who shouldn't be there is not okay, either. Just think what if everybody did that. Ladder would be a total mess. Just because not everybody is doing that, so the problem should be smaller-scale isn't really a great excuse.
On the other hand, making up rules and enforcing them doesn't really solve problems:
1. I suppose there are people who want to have a brush with higher skill levels than their own and watching streams or replays or VODs of better players isn't enough for them. They need something more hands-on. Why not make it possible for such people to experience from time to time how to feels to play against a highly skilled player? Heck, just asking politely on TL would probably make it happen. Joining a clan gives you the opportunity to become friends with people on higher skill levels, e.g. when the top of the clan participates in regional tournaments: you talk to them, they talk to small-time tournament winners, who talk to big-time winners, who talk to top names in SC2... You don't need to meet highly skilled and/or highly ranked players in your random-matched ladder games.
2. Feel like you can't get better on your own? => Find someone who will coach you (and especially if you're low-level, there are enough people willing to teach you a bit for a polite thank you). Don't fake master/GM, getting to master or even diamond (or any league above where you currently are) on your own should feel better than that. And remember that some of the pros sucked like really hard before they started gaming seriously. They lost 1v1s against the computer too, they got defeated by nobodies on the ladder too, but they practiced and practiced and practiced until they got better. Some big names have natural talents. But some are probably people with normal natural abilities who simply worked hard for what they achieved.
3. Feel like you aren't getting the appreciation you need (bragging rights, respect etc.)? That's the reason Blizzard introduced multiple divisions within leagues in order to lessen the feeling of being an insignificant drop in the ocean that's the player base. Try to focus on your division rather than the entire battle.net with its many leagues. If this doesn't work, find a clan. Make friends with your new clan buddies, train with them, some clans provide free coaching to their members by higher-ranked members, clan wars and other opportunities to make a name within a small circle. Speaking of small circles, get involved with your national scene, as opposed to the entire world with emphasis on Korea (you gotta be the best in your town before you can be the best of the world). Help somebody who has less skill than you do and help him jump a league or two (by coaching, not by playing on his account). You don't need the fake bling of just being listed in a league that isn't your real skill level.
4. Feel like you suck? Coach someone who does actually suck. Answer questions for newbies. Become a clan grandfather. Hang out in the national channel. Or just make a custom game, meet people who aren't as good as the guys your MMR finds for you. Or stop playing to win, whether it takes cheese or superhuman effort on your part, play standard, play normal, play "like the real you" and stick with that, should be less straining. Or go play teams or customs for a while. 1v1 ladder can be very frustrating. Some people need to take weeks or months off, this is normal.
This said, I wish we had a livelier clan scene, livelier national or regional scenes etc., more opportunities for people to interact across different skill levels, gain some achievements to be proud of before actually reaching the top themselves. This could help whatever drives people to pay for their accounts to be levelled.
Bonus:
If you hate the game, don't want to spend your time on it, don't feel like practicing it... you really don't have to. Just get a different game or even different genre, one you like. Prove yourself in a different field, where you feel better competing (including school or work).
On July 21 2012 03:50 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 02:53 Kilby wrote:On July 21 2012 02:44 yeint wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 raser wrote:
- It's against the EULA.
just so you know, trading and selling accounts/games is legal in europe, no mather what blizzard put in their EULA Trading and selling accounts is not legal in Europe. Trading and selling licenses is legal in Europe. A progamer can sell his SC2 license, but legally he is not allowed to play on it anymore, and Blizzard is perfectly within their rights to tie ladder rank and achievements to the Bnet account instead of the license. Are you sure selling licenses is legal? I mean, I think the original EULA already says the SC2 license is non-transferable and non-resellable, isn't that right? It's not yet, but a recent court decision will probably lead to it becoming legal in the EU.
(I'm a lawyer, which doesn't mean I'm smarter or that I'm right or make better arguments but I know a little of what I'm talking about.) Well, there's a difference between selling your game or selling your account in the sense of a login that allows you to play a game, and selling a set of achievements that you claim to have earned on your own. The law doesn't forbid private sports leagues from banning the sale of qualification places; if a league says money can't buy you placement, then money can't buy you placement and two parties: one desiring to sell and one desiring to buy can do nothing about it. While not a formalised sport, e-sports isn't much different and a "league" is named so for a reason. (And obviously you can't sell honorary citizenships, medals, academic degrees, awards and those type of things.) A decent lawyer with some brains and some knowledge of the subject should be able to convince a not overly ignorant panel of judges to see it in this light, and focus on the earned achievement aspect as opposed to the freedom of selling a game/account. It would only need the judges not to be dumb enough to think this is about selling a copy of the game but instead to be smart enough to notice the obvious: that it is about selling the league placement that's supposed to be a measure of your individual skill blended with personal achievement, both of which Blizzard has a very good reason to make non-transferable. Unlike a simple CD-key, where a gaming company undertakes to undermine a perfectly valid right of the consumer in order to increase its own proceeds from sales.
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I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season.
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On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season.
Nope.jpg
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On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season.
I could be 100% wrong here, but I believe IMMvp is an account Dragon plays on.
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On July 16 2012 16:41 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:40 Tachion wrote: I'm sorry for skimping around the main issue, but what compels people to pay for this in the first place? So they can brag to ignorant friends about how good they are? It seems like it's the only advantage since those GM accounts won't stay at GM level for very long right?
pretty much, ive never understood why you want to pay someone to level your account when you'll instantly lose as soon as you play on it yourself.
Nice waste of money but if people enjoy being fucktards thats up to them. At least they're supporting the progamers
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you just gotta accept that something like this is gonna happen in any game.
sc2 is not the first game offering boosting for money.
if they really wanna stop it, take away ranks (halo 4 wont have ranks because of account selling in 3 lol) -_-
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On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg
Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it.
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On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season.
IMMvp was smurf for a pro player that is not Naama 100%. i randomly know who plays on it, but that's besides the point, because if it's the same account (you can have multiple immvp with different char.code), it was "leveled" long time ago. meaning a GM player was using it extensively like some time ago as a smurf.
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On July 21 2012 01:38 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:42 StatixEx wrote:On July 21 2012 00:30 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 00:25 ABear wrote: I'm not sure how people can support this. It isn't really an honest way to make money. If they need money, they should coach, sell replays(this might be against the TOS though so maybe not), enter more tournaments, stream more etc. What's dishonest about it? This hurts actually no one. It's exactly the same as pros leveling up multiple accounts into GM. yes, this is a bigger problem. i cant get into GM cos naniwa and his RO32 mates have 12 accounts in there! (just using him as example . . chill ur beans people) So... You are using this as a excuse for your inability to get into GM? If you are good enough it'll happen. IF. So if you arent dont delude yourself.
I am using this excuse for an inability to get into gm? You mean me? personally? I dont give a fuck about people who level into GM from another GM was the context of my post, whatuonaboubro?. You might want to read the post and read for understanding. I dont do it. im not interested in getting into GM. This game doesnt dominate my life but i really enjoy playing it.
With the lawyer guy . . . Of course we dont want to see it but id like to see a bronze map hacker beat anyone plat and higher, we can hit the keys faster than the dude, he will never win, ill beat them with mass queens
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On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it. Here's the counter: what VeraLynn did was wrong because she used her high ranked account for personal gain, and ditto for DA, not because DA leveled the account itself. Frankly, if you want to let someone play on your account, that's your own damn business, and if a pro wants to offer their services, that's their damn business.
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On September 28 2012 02:47 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. IMMvp was smurf for a pro player that is not Naama 100%. i randomly know who plays on it, but that's besides the point, because if it's the same account (you can have multiple immvp with different char.code), it was "leveled" long time ago. meaning a GM player was using it extensively like some time ago as a smurf.
You may be referring to the EU IMMvp account, which beasty played on (interesting to hear you say he leveled it though, i thought it was just a smurf). The account that I talk about in the OP is an NA account, and I presented irrefutable proof that its Naama.
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it's still higher than playhem though.. thus..
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I seriously dont see a problem in getting free wins from noobs at a silver level while im laddering. I really think it is the person who buys the leveling who is the fool for wasting their money on getting into a league they won't be able to maintain for long. I dont think it should be a big deal to their teams of the players who are doing it anyway, they are just making some easy money. Silly thread
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On September 28 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it. Here's the counter: what VeraLynn did was wrong because she used her high ranked account for personal gain, and ditto for DA, not because DA leveled the account itself. Frankly, if you want to let someone play on your account, that's your own damn business, and if a pro wants to offer their services, that's their damn business.
Except for the part where it is against Blizzard rules and it ruins the integrity of the ladder.
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On September 28 2012 02:59 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it. Here's the counter: what VeraLynn did was wrong because she used her high ranked account for personal gain, and ditto for DA, not because DA leveled the account itself. Frankly, if you want to let someone play on your account, that's your own damn business, and if a pro wants to offer their services, that's their damn business. Except for the part where it is against Blizzard rules and it ruins the integrity of the ladder. I definitely don't care about the first one, and I don't think the second one is even true. Leveling an account to GM is no different relative to the ladder than progamers have 5 accounts in GM.
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On September 28 2012 03:03 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 02:59 Zennith wrote:On September 28 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it. Here's the counter: what VeraLynn did was wrong because she used her high ranked account for personal gain, and ditto for DA, not because DA leveled the account itself. Frankly, if you want to let someone play on your account, that's your own damn business, and if a pro wants to offer their services, that's their damn business. Except for the part where it is against Blizzard rules and it ruins the integrity of the ladder. I definitely don't care about the first one, and I don't think the second one is even true. Leveling an account to GM is no different relative to the ladder than progamers have 5 accounts in GM.
Cool that you don't care about Blizzard rules. Would you rather Blizzard just not have any rules at all?
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On September 28 2012 03:06 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 03:03 Shiori wrote:On September 28 2012 02:59 Zennith wrote:On September 28 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it. Here's the counter: what VeraLynn did was wrong because she used her high ranked account for personal gain, and ditto for DA, not because DA leveled the account itself. Frankly, if you want to let someone play on your account, that's your own damn business, and if a pro wants to offer their services, that's their damn business. Except for the part where it is against Blizzard rules and it ruins the integrity of the ladder. I definitely don't care about the first one, and I don't think the second one is even true. Leveling an account to GM is no different relative to the ladder than progamers have 5 accounts in GM. Cool that you don't care about Blizzard rules. Would you rather Blizzard just not have any rules at all?
This literally doesn't affect you at all.
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Why would anyone want this in the first place? I mean, you get your account leveled up way past your skill level, and then when you play it you get roflstomped back down to wherever you belong? Seems pretty stupid to me
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i don't think its that much of an issue because its a 1v1 game and if you play on your account you had leveled it your probably just going to give people free wins.
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On September 28 2012 03:06 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 03:03 Shiori wrote:On September 28 2012 02:59 Zennith wrote:On September 28 2012 02:49 Shiori wrote:On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it. Here's the counter: what VeraLynn did was wrong because she used her high ranked account for personal gain, and ditto for DA, not because DA leveled the account itself. Frankly, if you want to let someone play on your account, that's your own damn business, and if a pro wants to offer their services, that's their damn business. Except for the part where it is against Blizzard rules and it ruins the integrity of the ladder. I definitely don't care about the first one, and I don't think the second one is even true. Leveling an account to GM is no different relative to the ladder than progamers have 5 accounts in GM. Cool that you don't care about Blizzard rules. Would you rather Blizzard just not have any rules at all? That's not what I said. I care about rules if they are good ideas. Preventing others from playing on your account is not something I think needs to be a rule, ergo I don't care about it. I care about other rules that make sense, for instance, that maphacking should be a bannable offense.
Basically, I don't care about a rule just because it's a rule. It has to make sense and be a good idea.
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Seriously, the ruining the integrity of the ladder is pure bullshit. You really think these isolated cases will affect the whole ladder system such that it destroys the mechanics it was built on? It doesn't even come close to hacking as it's much more widespread and easily accessible.
Quit using such idealistic point-of-views to justify pointless arguments. If it is a breach of Blizzard's terms & conditions, they will deal with it eventually. This thread is totally a whine thread, it would be good if the creator stop bumping for whatever egoistic reasons.
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On September 28 2012 03:09 MerciLess wrote: Why would anyone want this in the first place? I mean, you get your account leveled up way past your skill level, and then when you play it you get roflstomped back down to wherever you belong? Seems pretty stupid to me
1) People do this so they can scam people with "GM Level Coaching" when they are actually much lower in skill (seen a few people do this and advertise on coaching sites)
2) Maybe so they can brag to friends?
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I think people do this so they can brag they're masters league. If they get leveled to GM, I think it's required that you have to play every so often and your bonus pool can't go above like 200 (not entirely sure of this as I'm only masters ). I really personally don't care if people are doing this because I'd still be able to easily beat them if they did try to ladder.
I also think this may fall under account sharing or something, which would be against Blizz's ToS?
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not a big deal everybody needs cash. Just enjoy the free wins from the idiots who went up to Master/GM without the necessary skills lol
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On September 28 2012 03:13 Foogazi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 03:09 MerciLess wrote: Why would anyone want this in the first place? I mean, you get your account leveled up way past your skill level, and then when you play it you get roflstomped back down to wherever you belong? Seems pretty stupid to me 1) People do this so they can scam people with "GM Level Coaching" when they are actually much lower in skill (seen a few people do this and advertise on coaching sites) 2) Maybe so they can brag to friends?
some decent points but ill try to respond. point 1 yes that could happen which i why you probably should not pay a random person without doing any ressearch first. and scams haappen in everything and the second one yes some people are so pathetic that they'd pay to be able to brag but there's no way to stop those people at all and it really doesn't effect you too much.
I'm not arguing that this should be okay btw i just think that its not something worth making a big deal about because it doesn't have a major impact on the game and one's ability to enjoy it and play it the way it should be played.
yes something should probably be done about it but i think its impossible to do something that will drastically lower it without inconveniencing the general population who plays the game with overly harsh restrictions and i think the gains not worth the cost.
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On September 28 2012 02:45 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 01:17 FnaticNaama wrote:On September 25 2012 07:07 Doodsmack wrote: I hope I don't make this thread redundant of the VeraLynn issue by bumping it, but I think that issue shows once again that the problem of account leveling isn't necessarily small potatoes. I added the VeraLynn thread to my point #6. Kawaii's hotkey analysis also proves once again that smurf accounts and leveled accounts can be identified by the sc2gears hotkey graphs. It really is a fingerprint for SC2 players. And believe it or not there are definitely a finite number of players from each race to check once you've seen a replay and know that it's very high level play.
So, needless to say this kind of thing is still going on. Naama continues to level the IMMvp account, with 34 games played this season. Nope.jpg Well the evidence is there in the OP, I'd be happy to hear you counter it.
I mean sure I did play on it but havent since 2-3 months
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Account leveling is as much cheating as maphacking. Both cause players to end up on a spot on the ladder they don't belong.
Even if all pro's would do it, it would not make it right.
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On September 28 2012 03:48 Zandar wrote: Account leveling is as much cheating as maphacking. Both cause players to end up on a spot on the ladder they don't belong.
Even if all pro's would do it, it would not make it right.
This.
If you don't care about integrity on the ladder, why would you complain about hacking? It's all about being consistent.
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The pros lose genuine practice time while the customers lose money. It's silly because the customer is paying for a transient status on an online game. There really isn't any practical benefit to this. I think it's the lack of money in the gaming scene that compels lower level pros to start bending Blizzard policies to make a couple bucks, even though they're ultimately just stifling their chances of future earnings through their neglect of legitimate practice.
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