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On September 13 2012 21:43 marmuc wrote: I buy a month long trip, after 6 days I got bored, no fun from trip anymore, I want my money back, okay.
Seems more like he was kicked out on grounds of a contract he hadn't signed yet. In that case I'd want my money back as well.
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seriously i dont get why this is such a thing right now.
if you are not an idiot you check things BEFORE you agree to pay / do something / someone. And it seems to me that Fuzer didnt do that correctly. otherwise he wouldve known what the contract was about in the first place.
people this is something you all have to learn, dont be naive and do shit if you are not sure what its about. complaining afterwards always is a huge mess.
either way, this whole thread is not good for esport at all. to much buiseness newbies talk useless stuff ...
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On September 13 2012 21:46 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 21:43 marmuc wrote: I buy a month long trip, after 6 days I got bored, no fun from trip anymore, I want my money back, okay. Seems more like he was kicked out on grounds of a contract he hadn't signed yet. In that case I'd want my money back as well.
I forgot to say that I didn't abide by the rules on my trip, but still want my money back. They want to give me my money back but I'd rather not take it but make a drama thread on tl.net instead, so everyone can hate.
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On September 13 2012 21:26 Wilko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place? It's simply how this house as a business is working. With streams you get more exposure and therefore more sponsors
In that case the 2500 PLN monthly fee is not justified. At any rate, this is a crucial detail and should have been explicitly communicated to all participants, not just put into the fine print of a contract.
Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there 10 years non-compete clause? It's common business method, admittably quite long tho, especially for eSports, but every player has to make up their mind about this before joining and also it is not stated like this in the actual contract as it was stated the OP's post, i can't go into any more detail here
It's not a common business method. For one, the 10 year period is illegal in many EU countries, for instance in Germany a no-compete clause can be a maximum of 2 years. Furthermore, a no-compete clause requires an employer/employee relationship. MoW is being marketed as a service sold to players. They are customers, not employees. If they are indeed employees, then why are they not being paid? Why are they being charged to work?
Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in) They aren't, every player who demands to see the contract before moving in can see those details. In Fuzer's case, he didn't care about the contract or the practice schedule, when he came to this house. He just wanted to pay the money and live here to train in his pace and way. But this is just not how this house works, with so many players in the house there has to be house-rules that have to be respected to make everything work out smoothly and to prevent problems that are preventing players from having the best training opportunities possible
That's our complaint. It is absolutely unacceptable that MoW introduces such draconian and exploitative terms on people without explicitly telling them in advance. If your defense amounts to caveat signator, then it's not defense at all.
Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet? The food is not shitty, it's quite often healthy food, with some exceptions, the food matches what was advertised before and it is enough food (there might have been some shortcuts due to misscalculation of the amount of new palyers and how much they eat, but it got sorted out). A problem is that many players chose to stay up very late and we don't have any kind of midnight-dish, which the house isn't obligied to provide, but we are already working on a solution [/quote]
So Fuzer is lying about one hot meal a day, supplemented by cereal/sandwiches?
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On September 13 2012 21:26 Wilko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place? It's simply how this house as a business is working. With streams you get more exposure and therefore more sponsors Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there 10 years non-compete clause? It's common business method, admittably quite long tho, especially for eSports, but every player has to make up their mind about this before joining and also it is not stated like this in the actual contract as it was stated the OP's post, i can't go into any more detail here There are similar clauses in a lot of contracts as the lawyers put it there in order for the other sides lawyers to remove it or narrow its scope and everylawyer makes an extra fee. Shouldn't be there if you just want people to sign up. It'll upset the court too if its not a B2B relationship where both sides can reasonbly expected to be employing lawyers.
On September 13 2012 21:26 Wilko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in) They aren't, every player who demands to see the contract before moving in can see those details. In Fuzer's case, he didn't care about the contract or the practice schedule, when he came to this house. He just wanted to pay the money and live here to train in his pace and way. But this is just not how this house works, with so many players in the house there has to be house-rules that have to be respected to make everything work out smoothly and to prevent problems that are preventing players from having the best training opportunities possible He simply shouldn't have to demand a contract, especially if it has unexpected provisions. It should be sent well before hand and any suprise clauses should really be highlighted and explained, or it all looks very dodgy.
On September 13 2012 21:26 Wilko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why was Fuzer not allowed to consult details of contract with his lawyer? You had no legal grounds to ask for lawyers license As far as i know he was allowed, but it was a matter of time passed and there was a deadline. I don't know any more details about this, it's a personal matter between Fuzer and the MoW] Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:46 JustPassingBy wrote: Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer? I think it might have been a matter of trust after a disrespecting and violating the house rules, but it's only speculation. i don't have more insight It's not valid regardless of trust issues, especially if the issues are because he won't sign the contract. It almost looks like coercion/blackmail into signing an unreasonable contract.
I understand this has become emotional and heated but this black and white approach to things is damaging. Look at it from his perspective, the guy didn't think he was signing his right to visit other team houses away when he arrived, and suddenly he's being bullied into a contract that looks like proffessional suicide if enforced. Of course hes getting emotional, you have to diffuse that not do the same. Learning from the mistakes is the way to go, not pretending its all fine. It's clearly a great facility, teething difficulties are inevitable, but handle it well and it looks good, fighting like this is not helping the MoW's image.
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This thread represents everything that's wrong with the SC2 community
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What a crappy situation. Seems messy as most drama issues are but I feel bad for Fuzer. I'm a little biased because I like him so much At least he got something out of it and improved!
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On September 13 2012 21:36 Rassy wrote: 10 years not compete is completely rediculous, i dont understand how anny player can accept such a condition, Maybe because of competition they feel they have to, so manny players want become pro, only so few spots available. Maybe teams abuse this fact, i dont know. You dont see such conditions in other sports for example, soccer players and and the like are free to move annywhere after their contract expired. (also i doubt what this exactly means btw, as i see manny sc players switching teams all the time, so this clause is not that common or it has no practical meaning for manny players) So where do you find such conditions? only in corporate life and then mostly with people who work on developping new products and technologys None of these aply for the team house situation, this 10 years non compete clause realy is absurd and players should protest against it.
You can join other houses of this kind as a player and you can also open your own team-house and it would be perfectly fine. MoW is not a team and the house is not a team-house, it's a training facility with a clear business plan open to players who are willing to cooperate with the house, so both sides gain benefits through the cooperation.
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On September 13 2012 21:43 marmuc wrote: I buy a month long trip, after 6 days I got bored, no fun from trip anymore, I want my money back, okay.
Rather you buy a one month trip, then when you stayed for 5 days the hotel you already paied for tells you that you need to pay more money or leave... You ok with that? Fine! You can come to my place any time!
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just my 2 cents
Fuzer's post seems honest enough - when it comes down to it he does give a fair and even positive opinion about the house itself - but the legal terms are absurd, especially when corroborated with the other tenants. If he did not have a genuine grievance it is hard to see why he would make a post like this. I do think he has been given the short end of the stick, I really do.
He is young, new to this sort of thing, and is faced with a sloppily-made contract in a language he isn't particularly great at. He shouldn't, for the want of a better word, be fucked over by the landlord, even if it's within the landlord's power to do so. Bad karma bro.
Why would you bully a young guy into signing a mysterious contract? Failing that, why would you take such a meagre sum from a small timer in such an unethical fashion? Give him his rightful portion of the money back. It's much better than bad publicity, eh?
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On September 13 2012 21:47 Latty wrote: seriously i dont get why this is such a thing right now.
if you are not an idiot you check things BEFORE you agree to pay / do something / someone. And it seems to me that Fuzer didnt do that correctly. otherwise he wouldve known what the contract was about in the first place.
That is not a defense of the ethics of MoW.
Could Fuzer have been more careful? Yes. Should he have to be careful when dealing with a reputable esports organization? Hell fucking no.
Conclusion - MoW is not a reputable esports organization, but a confidence trick played on people who neglected to read a contract that showed they were in effect temporarily joining a wonderful new business model.
This business model appears to be a team that instead of paying their talent salaries, charges them 2500 PLN of rent instead.
It's certainly a ministry of "win" for the owners, as they seem to be risking absolutely nothing. Costs are covered by monthly fees, additional profit earned from stream revenue and sponsors. It's brilliant!
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On September 13 2012 21:56 Fallout wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 21:43 marmuc wrote: I buy a month long trip, after 6 days I got bored, no fun from trip anymore, I want my money back, okay. Rather you buy a one month trip, then when you stayed for 5 days the hotel you already paied for tells you that you need to pay more money or leave... You ok with that? Fine! You can come to my place any time!
one more time but in English please.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 13 2012 21:16 Yuen_pl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote:On September 13 2012 19:43 Samba wrote: "Krupowies showed ESFI a Skype log that had him offering Fuzer the refund of the second month’s fee, but that Fuzer declined to accept it."
Clearly what the chatlog said....lol This MoW-boss is indeed full of shit. He was essentially blackmailing Fuzer! Shut up or you don´t get your money back. Now to work all you sponsor-caller. This time it would actually make sense it seems. Seriously what is wrong with you guys? Many of the players who come here sacrificed so much to come to this house and to finally have the opportunity to chase the eSports dream, some of them sacrificed even close to everything in their past life, leaving families and friends behind, not having a "normal" life anymore and even coming from a different continent without even being able to speak proper english. But they still did it because they are so passionate about Starcraft2 and eSports that they are willing to do this. The house is full and many players who wanted to come even had to be denied because there are simply no spots anymore. This house is the only of its kind in europe and it gives a lot of players the opportunities they waited for so long time. Do you really think it's that bad if there are so many players applying and every player having been or being in the house except Fuzer has stated a positive opinion about this house. I just can't understand why so many people just want to destroy all of this, this beautiful idea of people gathering together to chase their eSports dream. A gaming-house like this seems like a very risky investment at this moment in europe because noone has every done it before, so we waited a long time until finally someone had the balls to actually risk it. If this house will work out and be a success, there would be a lot more people thinking positive about this idea. I don't understand why so many people want to take this everything down and hurt so many up and coming pro players, who sacrificed everything to chase their dream and to make eSports happen. And i'm not only talking about all the players who are in MoW right now, but about all the potential other houses and ideas that could come up, if this house will be a success. Things got handeled poorly and there has to be something done, but please don't get obsessed with your hatred and destroy everything that people have worked so hard for in eSports P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house. People should read this^ Sadly, i think most people in here already made their minds, and they on a "burn everything you see" mission. Facts: 1. Great idea, first in Europe 2. Making contracts together with players, so both parties are happy 3. Trying to improve the house all the time, working with players 4. Players are really happy, they say MoW is great, more people wants to come, hell - even Destiny from USA. And Destiny is not a guy who decides to go crazy one day and travels to Europe. 5. One guy had a disagreement and he misinterpreted certain points in contract (about streaming cut and 10yrs clousure) 6. Normally everywhere in the world you pay in advance. You rent a room - you pay for a month on the first. You leave on 5th, it's NORMAL your money is gone. Because is has to be fair for other party too - if you leave it's not like other person will come the next day. Especially not with MoW. So if they give the money back - they are at loss here. 7. After the guy wrote they STOLE his money, they still offered to give it back. 8. Guy decided to not accept it and go for a war instead. 10. Guy posts on TL. 11. TL decided to skip logic and go witch-hunt. 12. MoW screws their PR. 13. TL goes even more crazy. 14. Past and current players, and some other people try to cool things down, telling it's not that bad, there was no bad will intended, that's it's just problem with communication and misunderstanding. 15. No one listens anymore, witch hunt has begun. There are email to sponsors being sent, telling how MoW is a criminal organization and how teams should pull their players out of there. Is that how you want to see your loved game and esport developing? One mistake, bad communication and you throw one of the greatest ideas to mud. And then spill on it. Everyone should work to make this situation as little salt in the wound as possible. Both parties made mistakes, MoW clearly said that - they wanted to make it easier on players and let them come before signing contract, but it turned on to be a mistake. Shit happens, now they know not to do it again. But apparently going drama mode is better. So many people say great things about this house, but some completely uninvolved people from other part of the world know better - it's a shady organization, and it should be put down. Congratulations TL. Give yourself a round of applause.
Let me help you see through those Polish eyeglasses.
1. Supporting them in this because their idea is great is the single most naive thing I've heard in this thread but yeah I agree, the idea is great. However this is not a reason not to stay objective in the case. 2. In this case both parties were not happy. How could Fuzer be happy with the contract when they give him no chance of even understanding it properly? 3. Correct. However it doesn't mean we shouldn't question their motives and actions because they did something right. 4. Even if 10000 guys signed a shitty contract, it doesn't mean the contract is good. Maybe it just isn't in their best interest to go shouting about these things because they personally benefit from the house. One could even question all these players who actually signed the contract since we cannot know what they are bound to do/say. 6. They forced Fuzer out of the house... he did not just "leave". Completely different case. 7. They offered the money back only after Fuzer said he would go public with this. The only reason they would do this is because they know they'd be in deep shit if it went public which means there is a good reason for it to go public. Makes one question the ethics of the MoW boss since he basically was ready to pay someone to shut him up which sounds like trying to bribe him. 8. As Fuzer stated he didn't want the money back because he thinks it is better if the public knew about this shady stuff even if it meant he would lose some money. If everyone just shuts up when given money (I guess those 500€ would be a fortune for you), every single problem could be hidden from the public with money. Sadly this actually happens a lot everywhere around the world but I'm glad Fuzer was better than it and didn't stand down.
I would never call this just another witch hunt. There are real questions on the legitimacy of the MoW business which has come up as shady at the least and hearing about the history of the MoW boss doesn't make things any better. Just because their idea about a gaming house is good shouldn't (for me - won't) make us forgive them for acting unprofessional and possibly even against the law.
Hopefully though they get this sorted out and fix their contract and policies so the house can keep running but this is up for them to decide. My point is that you are ignoring some disturbing facts because you want to avoid conflict (or to defend the house for a naive, though somewhat noble reason).
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starcraft 2 bubble is about to POP
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It wasn't wrong advertisment, you base your arguments on random comments that aren't even facts, it's not meatbealls with fries every day, I'm not going to write down a weekly menu for you. I wanted to give a more inside view of this situation, so some people won't back up their arguments with untrue facts, which you sadly continue to do even after giving you the inside. I have no more things to add to this situation and continuing a pointless argument with you won't achieve anything and is just a waste of time. I just hope people will have an easier time making up their mind with those provided informations. I will go back to training now, that's the reason why i came here.
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I'm also pretty shocked by the amount of Polish people in this thread defending MoW to their last breath. Are you all personally involved with the MoW leadership, or is this some sort of national pride thing?
Because to be perfectly blunt, it's having the opposite effect. If an Estonian organization pulled the same shit, I would most certainly not be defending them. No one assumes what MoW is doing has anything to do with the fact that they're from Poland, up until a horde of Poles descends on the thread to white knight for them.
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since MoW confirmed the questionable parts of the contract, they are worthy to be discussed...
"Not allowed to join another team house for 10years" - serious? Should this be a slave contract? This is just a cheap way to bind players to the house and make them less attractive for teams with establish teamhouses to sign them. With the situation inside the house being poor in some regards it also prevents you from leaving in a very sneaky way. "5h/day streaming beside the cost of 600euro/month" - It seems MoW doesn't want to establish a training eviroment, but bait in highlevel players and squeeze the most money possible out of them.
Overall it seems like MoW is a very dirty buisness that tries to make most money in a short amount of time by intimidating players with sneaky contracts to make sure they stay quiet and play along. This has nothing to do with esports and hopefully will lose support from the community as further things are exposed.
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On September 13 2012 22:17 Wilko wrote: It wasn't wrong advertisment, you base your arguments on random comments that aren't even facts, it's not meatbealls with fries every day, I'm not going to write down a weekly menu for you. I wanted to give a more inside view of this situation, so some people won't back up their arguments with untrue facts, which you sadly continue to do even after giving you the inside. I have no more things to add to this situation and continuing a pointless argument with you won't achieve anything and is just a waste of time. I just hope people will have an easier time making up their mind with those provided informations. I will go back to training now, that's the reason why i came here.
Reducing the complaints to "it's meatballs every day" is abjectly ridiculous strawmanning.
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Germany25638 Posts
I guess fuzer got exactly what he wanted. I mean he called the stupid thread "drama in MoW house" instead of "misunderstanding in the MoW house" or "contract problems in the Mow house" or whatever.
It's like he called it drama because he wanted to create more drama, bleh. A number of pros living in the house already commented that they are very happy with the house, it just can not be that bad of a place
Fuzer and MoW should just settle this in a reasonable manner, there is no need for a 100 page thread of "drama".
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