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On September 26 2012 20:24 Dotq wrote: Pay for games casted off replays with OK'ish casters, yeeeh im gonna pass.
Not hating on your product, you have amazing lineup, but you gotta know after your last PPV failure, its not the way to go.
But wasn't that last ppv so successful that they gave us an arena for free huehue MLG really knows how to put their put in their mouth. lol
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TB Telling it as it is. I too am surprised that people actually think the production is better over at Dreamhack compared to MLG. thats just insane. I mean sure the music was amazing, and I loved their 60fps which is far superior to 1080p in my opinion, but in terms of content, stream selection and analysis, its not close.
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On September 26 2012 20:30 Cartel wrote: TB Telling it as it is. I too am surprised that people actually think the production is better over at Dreamhack compared to MLG. thats just insane. I mean sure the music was amazing, and I loved their 60fps which is far superior to 1080p in my opinion, but in terms of content, stream selection and analysis, its not close. Agreed. MLG production is probably better. And if esports wants to move more into mainstream media, thats definitely the way to do it. I would say Dreamhack content is better, or at least better for the general audience which is watching this (15-30yo males). Seems its a matter of catering to a wider audience or just focusing on the already present one.
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On September 26 2012 20:35 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 20:30 Cartel wrote: TB Telling it as it is. I too am surprised that people actually think the production is better over at Dreamhack compared to MLG. thats just insane. I mean sure the music was amazing, and I loved their 60fps which is far superior to 1080p in my opinion, but in terms of content, stream selection and analysis, its not close. Agreed. MLG production is probably better. And if esports wants to move more into mainstream media, thats definitely the way to do it. I would say Dreamhack content is better, or at least better for the general audience which is watching this (15-30yo males). Seems its a matter of catering to a wider audience or just focusing on the already present one.
yeah cause the mainstream cares about production, lol
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Is the MvP Invitational live? I would suppose it is since its PPV but i havent seen any confirmation that it is.
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On September 26 2012 15:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better. They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values. So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts. Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
One thing you got wrong is that dreamhack is only in 720p, there is an option for higher quality which is "720p+" which has better quality than the 720p one though i don't know the resolution on this, also if I'm not mistaken the 720p+ is the only one with 60 fps.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 26 2012 20:50 Fjodorov wrote: Is the MvP Invitational live? I would suppose it is since its PPV but i havent seen any confirmation that it is.
It is casted from replays.
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Jewdance DiJewvanni is at it again... Seriously why would you make THIS event ppv? It would get so much more viewers and revenue if you made it free since it involves kespa players
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 26 2012 20:32 Lomm wrote: I will never support MLG again after that PPV stunt. Dreamhack all the way baby, and yes, DH is superioir in every aspect that I as a watcher want a coverage to be. You should think about both sides of the coin. WCS Europe Finals is a whole different thing than for example DH Valenica (as u seen last week). I like both of them (MLG and Dreamhack) but biasing around because they implement content which is PPV and saying you wont ever support them anymore it's BS, i'm pretty sure you will tune in once you see that an MLG Championchip is online... and i'm not talking about arenas or stuff like this one. It's ok to have content which is PPV and not completely free. It's a different marketing model, nothing more.
People like you should think about what they say first. If you really appreciate ONLY watching DH with many players that nobody wants to see (for example Targa - who wins against a far superior player with a slow ling all-in) then jeah, enjoy your show. I like watching both but i would miss MLG mainly because they got the best players on the planet. Why does MLG have better player lineups you ask? MLG puts up bigger price pools, they can do this because they have better sponsorships and in general a more profitable marketing model (PPV for example generates money for that big prize pools too). Another thing to add is that MLG pays way more players for taking part than DH, DH only pays out for the top tier finishers (which is ok, it's their model).
Again, the thing you say is BS. You only think about your own pocket and how much Media you can consume without spending a single cent on it. IF you would talking about helping eSports grow, 10 $ would be ok for you for 5 !!! Weeks of SC2 content filled with Kespa, GSL and best foreign players. You are nothing more than that pointless rebelist who likes to see eSports die because u dont wanna pay entrance to an event, not pay for what you see and as a result the guys who work in that (Players, Organizers, Managers) won't make money. At the end of the day what you ask for is a McDonalds restaurant which offers you something to eat for 5 Weeks, but you rebell against it and say "Fuck y**, i want to eat for free for 5 weeks". You have to understand that the money Axslav gets for example (casting this) has to come from somewhere. In general many TL and Reddit users really dont use their brains it seems :-7
EDIT: The most funny thing is that many guys - even if an event is free or if they watch player streams - they got their Addblock activated because thats how much they support them. So they don't even get the money for adds because half of the viewers actually don't get them.
I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
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On September 26 2012 20:56 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
Please for the love all that is holy don't start with "support esport" shit again. It's basically begging to pay for it even tough you don't think its worth it just cause "it supports esports" and its quite frankly sickening. If i think something is worth the money i will pay for it (payed for GSL ever since season 2). I however don't need someone to tell me that i have to pay for it to support esports. If the person you replied won't support MLG cause they have PPV its his own choise and there is absolutely no reason to try to make him feel guilty with this crap.
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On September 26 2012 20:53 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 20:50 Fjodorov wrote: Is the MvP Invitational live? I would suppose it is since its PPV but i havent seen any confirmation that it is. It is casted from replays.
Oh, that is disappointing. I dont think PPV casting replays will be a viable business in the future, even if this particular event might go well. Seems strange to me.
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On September 26 2012 21:12 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 20:56 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
Please for the love all that is holy don't start with "support esport" shit again. It's basically begging to pay for it even tough you don't think its worth it just cause "it supports esports" and its quite frankly sickening. If i think something is worth the money i will pay for it (payed for GSL ever since season 2). I however don't need someone to tell me that i have to pay for it to support esports. If the person you replied won't support MLG cause they have PPV its his own choise and there is absolutely no reason to try to make him feel guilty with this crap. Did i even mentioned your name o.O WTF !? I dont say people have to pay for this one to safe eSports -.- what i say is that this guy i quoted for example won't help anyone if he NEVER ever will tune in to MLG events (and i bet he will) just because they got this one event that is PPV
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Helping eSports grow is such a bullshit argument. It's entertainment not charity, and the only thing that will make eSports grow is if the people producing it get it to bigger audiences, which you think would be priority number one.
PPV events aren't helping eSports grow, they are for lining MLG's pockets.
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On September 26 2012 21:12 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 20:56 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
Please for the love all that is holy don't start with "support esport" shit again. It's basically begging to pay for it even tough you don't think its worth it just cause "it supports esports" and its quite frankly sickening. If i think something is worth the money i will pay for it (payed for GSL ever since season 2). I however don't need someone to tell me that i have to pay for it to support esports. If the person you replied won't support MLG cause they have PPV its his own choise and there is absolutely no reason to try to make him feel guilty with this crap.
Yeah the whole "support esports" thing got old fast. "Supporting Esports" or do you mean "buy my product"? Its funny how people try and make it seem like you are helping cure cancer or changing the world. "Supporting Esports" is more like putting money into business-people's pockets lol. Its not about esports, its about them making money. My post is starting to sound pretty redundant I know, but i'm so tired of people saying this shit.
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On September 26 2012 20:55 AcesAnoka wrote: Jewdance DiJewvanni is at it again... Seriously why would you make THIS event ppv? It would get so much more viewers and revenue if you made it free since it involves kespa players
There's no way of knowing that.
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On September 26 2012 15:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better. They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values. So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts. Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
You've commented on verbatim accusations instead of on thought process behind it. I imagine what most viewers compare is value of a free options, instead of maximum of the free DH and premium content by MLG. So to keep focus on resolutions - they compare 720p to 240p instead of 1080 to 720 max. I wanted to include how virtually negligible cost of a pass in a western country is, but after trying to compare what 9-12 bucks can buy in US and Poland... Well, shit - it's not _that_ expensive here either (I'll actually pay more seeing Avengers if I'd get coke and popcorn (or MDMD and nachos, ho ho ho)).
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On September 26 2012 21:22 Vorgrim wrote: Helping eSports grow is such a bullshit argument. It's entertainment not charity, and the only thing that will make eSports grow is if the people producing it get it to bigger audiences, which you think would be priority number one.
PPV events aren't helping eSports grow, they are for lining MLG's pockets. Jeah and how do you think you can help getting bigger audiences? I bet by investing more. How you can invest more? Somehow make money before the real events starts which is this little event (Stuff like MLG Championchips which are FREE to watch for gods sake). Man you guys think so onedimensional that it hurts my fckin but to read these stupid comments most of the 15 year olds make in this thread. Do you guys even understand ANYTHING about economics or business that you try to tell MLG what they do wrong, when they actually seem to do the best job out there producing the best tournaments.
You guys compare MLG with WCS Europe without knowing it. WCS EU was helped to produce by DH, nothing more. It was no Dreamhack Event at all. It was a BLIZZARD EVENT! Blizzard is a fiancially strong business on their own so they don't rely on stuff like commercials for Dr.Pepper or the newest internet connection in sweden to get the stuff running. They financed it. THAT's why that event was so amazing because there was a LOT of money involved. There's a reason why dreamhack pay out the winner only 7000 € in their own tournaments, which compared to other tournaments is nothing. there are several tournaments where the 4th place makes the same amount of money.
Sure, it's all about viewers but to gain viewers attention you need to invest more too. Because more investment means everything: Better players attending, better production, better prize money. What you guys think is that the fact that you just tune in to stuff like DH, it automatically produces enough for them to finance the whole event and make tons of money (which is just not true at all!).
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I thought the PPV arenas were actually worth it because they were live games and it literally had the best Code S GSL players at the time competing, but asking for money to show replay casts of foreigners vs kespa players, who we all know are not GSL Code S level is a bit much. There will be lag, terribly one sided games and even though they are KeSPA players playing SC2, the hype has somewhat disappeared, I would have possibly bought this 6 months ago, not now.
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Why does everyone need to argue about every single thing seriously ... People who can afford it and want to pay for it will pay for it and people who don't care/can't afford it won't pay for it. I don't see the point of arguing. If not enough people will pay it will fail by itself and that's a bigger statement than crying about it on a forum just saying
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