Major League Gaming has unveiled the new Fall broadcast line up that will air on majorleaguegaming.com beginning this week. A calendar of all programs and show descriptions is available here.
MLG shows will air regularly at 7pm ET showcasing the best in competitive gaming as follows:
StarCraft II (Tuesdays and Thursdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Beginning October 2, Tuesdays and Thursdays will be devoted to StarCraft II starting with the StarCraft II Online Qualifiers. Featuring competitions for Europe, North America, and Korea/Taiwan, the broadcast will highlight the best from each region with the victors receiving coveted Group Play spots and paid trips to the Fall Championship in Dallas from November 2-4. Shows will be commentated by Nick “Axslav” Ranish and Alex “Axeltoss” Rodriguez.
MvP Invitational (Kicks off Thursday, September 27 and Airing Mondays and Fridays at 7pm ET) – PPV only As previously announced, the world’s best StarCraft II players will meet up in an unprecedented collaboration between MLG and KeSPA’s Proleague in the MvP Invitational. A complete overview of the tournament, players and first week match-ups is available here. Kicking off on Thursday, September 27, the MvP Invitational will feature 15 days of broadcast with 100+ games casted for dozens of hours of content. 48 players will compete for a $10,000 first prize, paid trips to Dallas, and coveted Group Play spots. Shows will be commentated by Nick “Axslav” Ranish and Alex “Axeltoss” Rodriguez and passes are available online.
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
you said the best MOBA games and players will be will be featured using LoL but that would be impossible considering the game your using... anyway cant wait to watch all the amazing sc2 during the week. Im going to have to up the number of streams I have opened to like 5... woot!
I expect the MvP to be a complete flop. PPV worked well for the Arenas, because you had the best players in the world competing in a serious tournament with high production value. That's the kind of product you are able to sell well. I really doubt that many people will buy a pass for this show event. The LineUp lacks really hot ESF korean players and noone expect those games to be played out too seriously. I wonder why they trashed the arena for this.. :o
On September 26 2012 07:30 TeeTS wrote: I expect the MvP to be a complete flop. PPV worked well for the Arenas, because you had the best players in the world competing in a serious tournament with high production value. That's the kind of product you are able to sell well. I really doubt that many people will buy a pass for this show event. The LineUp lacks really hot ESF korean players and noone expect those games to be played out too seriously. I wonder why they trashed the arena for this.. :o
they'll make more money. People will pay a lot to see Flash v. Scarlett for example.
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
Best MOBA games/players?
Well the best MOBA game, agreed upon by the pro-gaming community, is DotA2. The best players, also play DotA2.
Get your marketing right. Say 'MLG will feature the most popular MOBA game' since that is actually what it is.
10$ is such a steal for the amount of content that I get in return, hell I pay 10$ to go to the movies. People need to reallistically look at this and get over there self entitlement. 10$ is nothing and I'm a starving student.
I am definitely going to buy the PPV. Watching the kespa pros play against some of my favorite players is much too cool to pass up, and $10 is a great price for all that content!
Hmm this one's tough. Not sure if I'll be purchasing MvP. I'm leaning towards no, but it is tempting. It's really disappointing there's no free option. I already have enough sc2 to watch atm, but if this was free, it would instantly jump to the top of my list (certain matches at least).
Great another thread of broke assholes clamoring that MLG is a disgusting organization for trying to make a profit. I'm going to pay the $10 bucks because its less than 10 cents per hour of content.
How much is the PPV this time? I don't mind paying for one of a kind Kespa vs Foriengers vs ESF action long as its not something silly like twenty bucks (I'm broke now).
Edit: answered above, thanks. That's actually awesome, even with cross server lag Kespa player games in NA timezones is great.
On September 26 2012 07:02 ChuCky.Ca wrote: you said the best MOBA games and players will be will be featured using LoL but that would be impossible considering the game your using...
DOTA(2) elitist? Hmph?
Looking forward to results of StarCraft part of the tournament. LoL - like the game, not the tournaments.
Very tempted to not buy the PPV just because I thought MLG was not going to go down that road again... but the matchups will be pretty damn good. The prize money should assure that we see some good matches and strategies.
But... no DotA2? I just don't get it. I know LoL is the most popular, but I would rather see MLG try and support the DotA scene. LoL has enough support from Riot.
On September 26 2012 07:02 ChuCky.Ca wrote: you said the best MOBA games and players will be will be featured using LoL but that would be impossible considering the game your using...
DOTA(2) elitist? Hmph?
Looking forward to results of StarCraft part of the tournament. LoL - like the game, not the tournaments.
No Tasteless, Artosis, DJ Wheat, Day 9, Apollo, Rotterdam, Mr. Bitter, Frodan, Gretorp, or Khaldor? Sorry MLG, but it's online and there are no notable dedicated casters to entertain me.
Yes, Axslav is smart as fuck when it comes to SC2, but he is kind of boring to listen to. So is Axeltoss. I think they can talk about the game well, but for entertainment to people who do not follow the scene/play the game very much, they aren't that exciting to watch.
I will watch the good matches between two great players, but if it's like MC vs like LzGamer or something and MC will just 2-0 him, I probably won't watch. If it's like Stephano vs Taeja, yes I will watch.
Got kind of a feeling PPV will backfire. The KESPA players are already starting to lose their hype because they're being exposed in both OSL and GSL. They arent as "special" as at Anaheim anymore. And with the other part being kind of a mixture of NA/EUs with seemingly nothing else in common than that they've played MLG..... I cant say Im too hyped. Also add in cross server and online play, you just cant compete with live no matter how you do it (look at TSL4).
That said, I honestly hope they do well and I hope Im wrong. Hopefully something good comes out of it!
Cant even watch live for fre lol. I'm not paying for what basically amounts to a qualifier tournament with second rate casters. KESPA and MLG could have put a great show here, but they won't get my money. Just me opinion.
No disrespect but I'd like to be bold here because I think PPV is damn right outrageous
MLG come across as very arrogant they seem to think they're the biggest tournament over the likes of ASUS and Dreamhack who use free HD streaming and much better live audiences and MLG events are riddled with boring downtime, online tournaments are becoming less interesting and becoming less popular (TSL4) also when 2 different continents are involved it's impossible to achieve an even level playing field. The Kespa players will sometimes lag on NA servers and vice versa, how are wastern Europeans meant to match up against Koreans without the latency issues? - Will the games even be played live?? I'm guessing not. The fact MLG are again sponging from the SC2 community using Kespa players as a hype like it's some UFC or WWE event in my eyes puts MLG the lowest of all the tournaments
People may argue $10 aint alot but there's people not as blessed out there and who can't afford to subscribe to VODs or use their daily change to buy boosts on League of Legends.
My second issue are the casters.If I were to pay, I'd expect State of the art casters worth paying for, Tastosis, Apollo + Wheat or even Bitterdam. I like Axslav on the analysts desk at MLG events but it doesn't make him a good caster
On September 26 2012 07:46 Trict wrote: 10$ is such a steal for the amount of content that I get in return, hell I pay 10$ to go to the movies. People need to reallistically look at this and get over there self entitlement. 10$ is nothing and I'm a starving student.
If you think 10$ is nothing, then you are not a starving student. Sorry.
$10 is a bargain in my opinion. Much higher entertainment hours/dollar value than anything else I pay for.
To people who think it is terrible that they charge $10; The amount you pay for something is related to how much value you think something is worth. I doubt you think any of the free streams you watch are worthless. The main reasons those are free is because there needs to be free content for newcomers, and there are so many streams offering similar content right now that if one of them puts a price to theirs, all the viewers will shrug and go to the other similar streams. In this case however, MLG vs Proleague is UNIQUE content that offers match ups that cannot be seen anywhere else. You cannot shrug it off and say "pfft, I will just watch QxC vs Flash on NASL free stream, or GSL, or IPL, etc." For the type of content they are providing, the market is not supersaturated and therefore there is no one out there to undercut them. The premium content they are referring to is not necessarily in production (live face to face, A level casters,etc) but in the unique match ups. I personally would very much like to see these match ups, and I find $10 a very fair price.
Wasn't the PPV from MLG Arena's a way to help sustain the tournament with MLG paying for all the flights and other overheads? Which made it understandable to use a PPV model.
But PPV model here for online tournament, probably casted from replays? Don't understand it. MLG Arena PPV there was reasoning behind it, not too sure I can see it for MvP tournament other than capitalizing on hype, amongst other things.
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
Best MOBA games/players?
Well the best MOBA game, agreed upon by the pro-gaming community, is DotA2. The best players, also play DotA2.
Get your marketing right. Say 'MLG will feature the most popular MOBA game' since that is actually what it is.
I just can't agree more.
I still find insulting someone calling DotA a MOBA but, seriously MLG? I just love the way they say "BEST PLAYERS" when in "LoL" you don't even control multiple units... marketing these days are just fucking horrible!
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
Best MOBA games/players?
Well the best MOBA game, agreed upon by the pro-gaming community, is DotA2. The best players, also play DotA2.
Get your marketing right. Say 'MLG will feature the most popular MOBA game' since that is actually what it is.
I just can't agree more.
I still find insulting someone calling DotA a MOBA but, seriously MLG? I just love the way they say "BEST PLAYERS" when in "LoL" you don't even control multiple units... marketing these days are just fucking horrible!
I assume you wanted to write "...calling LoL a MOBA..." though I think your point of view laughable. LoL is MOBA. You can argue whether it is ARTS though I think it would be really hard to take the definition and proof anything...
of all the tournaments it's always mlg being the greedy ones... I don't get why people are this way. Everyone else to get along perfectly fine with free streams, just mlg has to get their ppv shit going. So annoying and definitly won't pay, gonna resort to restreams.
Axslav casting is fucking awesome. He provides great insight. Don't understand how some of you are complaining about that. He is arguably one of the best player/casters. Pretty sure he> incontrol/gretorp/bitter/rotterdam. Can't think of any one that regularly casts that is better than him... but my brain isn't working right now.
PPV is kind of wonky for this though. Feels kind of like they are going off the novelty of the KESPA players rather than the skill. 10$ ain't bad. But I'd rather see Stephano, idra, MC, polt, MVP, MKP, Scarlett, Nerchio, Nani, dima...etc. some fan favorites, but mostly the best of the best. Throw flash, JD, bisu in there and I'd pay out the ass.
Theyre trying to monetize esports. We cant just be selfish every tournament and expect 100% free high quality production and 1080p. Thats like getting mad at your tv provider for charging you. Let's try to pay for content for once.
On September 26 2012 08:34 Moonling wrote: Are starcraft fans really this cheap? $10 for an awesome entertaining weekend with players you are interested in.
On September 26 2012 08:50 HaZardous47 wrote: Theyre trying to monetize esports. We cant just be selfish every tournament and expect 100% free high quality production and 1080p. Thats like getting mad at your tv provider for charging you. Let's try to pay for content for once.
You act like tens of thousands of people don't already pay for GSL tickets. Some people don't think It's worth it to pay 10$ for an online tournament.
Now if they had held an arena and invited Kespa players I would pay for that.
I pay monthly to watch Gom because I think it's worth the money. What MLG has proposed with the MvP tournament seems like a lot of value for what we would be paying and I don't understand the issue people have with them charging a fee. The expectation that we can watch anything (even at low quality) for free has so permeated e-sports that I think many fans are being unreasonable as to its monetization.
On September 26 2012 08:55 Lazy_Intellectual wrote: I pay monthly to watch Gom because I think it's worth the money. What MLG has proposed with the MvP tournament seems like a lot of value for what we would be paying and I don't understand the issue people have with them charging a fee. The expectation that we can watch anything (even at low quality) for free has so permeated e-sports that I think many fans are being unreasonable as to its monetization.
So many 1 posters in this thread.
Hmm
Anyway charging money in itself is not the problem, it's what you get for the buck. And I'm sorry but I can't see or hear a bang.
On September 26 2012 08:34 Moonling wrote: Are starcraft fans really this cheap? $10 for an awesome entertaining weekend with players you are interested in.
$10 is like a 12 pack of beer... come on now
It's an online tournament on cross server..
An online tournament, cross server and most of the foreigners are mid tier NA players who don't stand a chance. I don't really enjoy onesided slaughter. I guess i will invest the money into a GSL ticket instead (as always)
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
Best MOBA games/players?
Well the best MOBA game, agreed upon by the pro-gaming community, is DotA2. The best players, also play DotA2.
Get your marketing right. Say 'MLG will feature the most popular MOBA game' since that is actually what it is.
I just can't agree more.
I still find insulting someone calling DotA a MOBA but, seriously MLG? I just love the way they say "BEST PLAYERS" when in "LoL" you don't even control multiple units... marketing these days are just fucking horrible!
I assume you wanted to write "...calling LoL a MOBA..." though I think your point of view laughable. LoL is MOBA. You can argue whether it is ARTS though I think it would be really hard to take the definition and proof anything...
I apologize for my grammar. What I was trying to say is why do "media" overall call DotA2 MOBA when MLG picks "the best players" and you only see LoL players?
I keep telling over and over again that DotA cannot be compared to LoL! Not at least in a eSports point of view. They only have 3 things in common and it's two ancients, towers to defend and creeps attacking it. Besides that you cannot compare both! I just hope Valve once DotA2 is release they make an clear statement that DotA isn't MOBA. DotA2 is DotA and DotA is AoS.
Oh my I've never seen so many tears for 10$ of great content before. I think 10 is well worth the content and would much rather spend it on this than a movie of the same value.
On September 26 2012 08:25 TehAntiphobia wrote: PPV.... Some of us have wife, and children, and really cant justify paying 10 bucks for something with no value other than enterainment
do you own a tv? do your children own any toys? Do you own a phone that does more than calling and texting? Did you pay money for sc2?
"Best MOBA games?" You're dealing with the extremely polarized Action RTS genre, and you isolate LoL as being the best game (since I guess there's only one) with the best players? You should know better, MLG.
At least the online qualifiers for SC2 are free...
I don't understand the hand-wringing from both sides of the PPV debate. If you want to pay for PPV then do it without the holier-than-thou attitude. If you don't want to pay then don't and save us all the entitled outrage.
I have to struggle to condemn a company for making money out of events that otherwise would not exist. That takes a lot of effort and mental gymnastics.
On September 26 2012 10:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: I have to struggle to condemn a company for making money out of events that otherwise would not exist. That takes a lot of effort and mental gymnastics.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
Isn't that invitational the one where they invited 12 NA players? I'm surprised anyone would pay to watch Kespa/GSL Koreans stomp on the rest of the world.
Will there be any time that we can see a game or two of the PPV stuff for free? I'd like to see how I like those 2 casting together before I commit to paying for many weeks of it. IIRC the first match of the arenas were free.
Too many people are getting hung up on this "best MOBA game" shit. Its hype, its a press release. Also, the arguments against PPV are valid, to a certain degree, but at the same time its not that bad. However, what is bad is MLG's online player, I wonder if they'll have it just on twitch/own3d.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I think the SC2 community has gotten to a very ugly place if we're scoffing at $10 to watch the biggest Kespa and foreign names duke it out in over 100 games in 1080p. I mean fuck I'm happy paying twice that to watch mid-tier foreigners beat the crap out of each other in NASL, how on earth is THIS not worth the money? In what universe?
This is the SC2 equivalent of Wrestlemania, only 3 weeks in length rather than 3 hours. Come on.
To be honest, the results are going to be what you expect- The koreans will dominate everyone basically, The Kespa pro's have already proved they are about the same level as the ESF kroeaans.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
I paid for it, love the idea and watching Kespa pros in 1080p sounds good to me. I am not a starving college student though. Oh I also love Axslav's analytical commentating, he is actually a really good player and he is showing mad worth by being able to cast as well.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I think the SC2 community has gotten to a very ugly place if we're scoffing at $10 to watch the biggest Kespa and foreign names duke it out in over 100 games in 1080p. I mean fuck I'm happy paying twice that to watch mid-tier foreigners beat the crap out of each other in NASL, how on earth is THIS not worth the money? In what universe?
This is the SC2 equivalent of Wrestlemania, only 3 weeks in length rather than 3 hours. Come on.
To be honest, the foreigners at NASL are quite a bit better than the foreigners at this MLG event. And they have the better GSL Koreans, too.
But the KeSPA players should pull some viewers for sure, yeah.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
Miles behind in what way exactly? Production, yeah DreamHack is better. I don't think its fair to compare production of Asus to an MLG championship as they are two different scales. If we compare to the Arena's i'd say they are pretty damn equal.
But what about in supporting players? How many players does DH or Asus fly to their events? None. How much money does Asus and DH give out? Not near as much as MLG. How many players actually win money at DH and Asus? Not as many as MLG. How many players can compete in DH and Asus? Not even close to MLG.
Yes, MLG is money oriented, they have to be, they are a business. Complaining about a $10 PPV is ridiculous. Its fucking $10. I hope you don't go to the movies or eat out ever.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I think the SC2 community has gotten to a very ugly place if we're scoffing at $10 to watch the biggest Kespa and foreign names duke it out in over 100 games in 1080p. I mean fuck I'm happy paying twice that to watch mid-tier foreigners beat the crap out of each other in NASL, how on earth is THIS not worth the money? In what universe?
This is the SC2 equivalent of Wrestlemania, only 3 weeks in length rather than 3 hours. Come on.
That's the entire problem in my eyes.
It's an artificially arranged tournament meant to attract both foreign audiences and Korean audiences that were devoted to BW, yet KeSPA has done nothing on its end to create an audience outside of Korea. From the description the MvP Invitational doesn't know where it wants to be a glorified showmatch (way too large and complicated) or a legitimate qualifier to the Fall Championship (which requires...actual qualifiers instead of dubiously pandering to two separate audiences). And of course it unintentionally thumbs its nose at those going through the KR/TW Qualifiers (why are Action and Crazy-Hydra valued over sC and Sniper, especially when they have less results?).
So you have a fancy new tournament that has no clear identity, no natural storylines that developed from the community perspective, a large player base that is based more on imagined prestige than actual results, and 3/4ths of the KeSPA players are complete unknowns to the foreign community. No wonder people are hesitant to commit their money.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
Miles behind in what way exactly? Production, yeah DreamHack is better. I don't think its fair to compare production of Asus to an MLG championship as they are two different scales. If we compare to the Arena's i'd say they are pretty damn equal.
But what about in supporting players? How many players does DH or Asus fly to their events? None. How much money does Asus and DH give out? Not near as much as MLG. How many players actually win money at DH and Asus? Not as many as MLG. How many players can compete in DH and Asus? Not even close to MLG.
Yes, MLG is money oriented, they have to be, they are a business. Complaining about a $10 PPV is ridiculous. Its fucking $10. I hope you don't go to the movies or eat out ever.
How can you even compare to Arena to a live audience, the arena's were catastrophicly bad they had no atmosphere at all the finals were like "So I guess I won and thats it" and Arena's were the reason they stopped the PPV model because the viewers dropped after the 2nd or 3rd Prize Pool I think you'll find MLG events were notorious for giving out the lowest amount so let's not go there, put it this way ForGG at Valencia got 40,000 SEK for just runners-up which is about $9k which is almost double the first place used to get at an MLG, nowadays it's alot more.
The PPV is not Wrestlemania, MLG Providence was Wrestlemania it's more like of those meaningless ones which runs upto Wrestlemania - Survivor Series? it's an online tournament, it'll have zero atmosphere and not even a even-level playing field due to server-swapping, you can play from Western Europe to NA on a even field assuming your router isn't a Cereal box but any further distance you're going to get latency whether you like it or not. Yeah I can't pay a stupid $10 because I look after a younger relative, I can't even play subscription based games to make ends meet and now ironically I'm being asked to pay to view a standard game, it wouldn't half surprise me if half the people saying its alright didn't actually pay out their own pockets and sponge off someone else.
On September 26 2012 08:07 Hrrrrm wrote: PPV for cross server qualifier replay content. Wonderful. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Not "premium" content sorry.
Couldn't agree more. Seriously MLG.. either provide us with PREMIUM content, or don't try to pick every last penny from our pockets. Disgraceful.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
Miles behind in what way exactly? Production, yeah DreamHack is better. I don't think its fair to compare production of Asus to an MLG championship as they are two different scales. If we compare to the Arena's i'd say they are pretty damn equal.
But what about in supporting players? How many players does DH or Asus fly to their events? None. How much money does Asus and DH give out? Not near as much as MLG. How many players actually win money at DH and Asus? Not as many as MLG. How many players can compete in DH and Asus? Not even close to MLG.
Yes, MLG is money oriented, they have to be, they are a business. Complaining about a $10 PPV is ridiculous. Its fucking $10. I hope you don't go to the movies or eat out ever.
How can you even compare to Arena to a live audience, the arena's were catastrophicly bad they had no atmosphere at all the finals were like "So I guess I won and thats it" and Arena's were the reason they stopped the PPV model because the viewers dropped after the 2nd or 3rd Prize Pool I think you'll find MLG events were notorious for giving out the lowest amount so let's not go there, put it this way ForGG at Valencia got 40,000 SEK for just runners-up which is about $9k which is almost double the first place used to get at an MLG, nowadays it's alot more.
The PPV is not Wrestlemania, MLG Providence was Wrestlemania it's more like of those meaningless ones which runs upto Wrestlemania - Survivor Series? it's an online tournament, it'll have zero atmosphere and not even a even-level playing field due to server-swapping, you can play from Western Europe to NA on a even field assuming your router isn't a Cereal box but any further distance you're going to get latency whether you like it or not. Yeah I can't pay a stupid $10 because I look after a younger relative, I can't even play subscription based games to make ends meet and now ironically I'm being asked to pay to view a standard game, it wouldn't half surprise me if half the people saying its alright didn't actually pay out their own pockets and sponge off someone else.
So atmosphere is production now? The Arena's had GREAT production. Fantastic 1080p quality, true first person POV, picture in picture, instant replay, it was great. And Asus ROG didn't really have much of a crowd either btw. It was just some people standing behind the players watching.
And now you are bringing up old fucking numbers? MLG was only second to GSL in prize money last year. And its going to be that way this year too. Like I said, MLG pays out more money and pays more players.
Sucks that you can't afford the $10, but guess what? There is a TON of other free sc2 content out there by MLG and every other organization to keep you occupied.
On September 26 2012 08:07 Hrrrrm wrote: PPV for cross server qualifier replay content. Wonderful. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Not "premium" content sorry.
Couldn't agree more. Seriously MLG.. either provide us with PREMIUM content, or don't try to pick every last penny from our pockets. Disgraceful.
If $10 is every last penny in your pocket, perhaps you shouldn't be spending this time watching sc2.
lol I bet the MLG guys get a good laugh from the exaggerations and vitriol that pop up in these threads. As they should. If you don't want to pay then maybe...go watch the other 24/7 SC2 content and stop posting here? You wouldn't watch this if it were free anyway, assuming your complaints about cross-server lag and replays are genuine. MLG is "disgraceful" and "trying to pick money from our pockets" because they're charging $10 for this? Lol you sound a little too worked up about this bud. Just don't watch it and move on. It's simply unintelligent for you to draw conclusions about MLG's moral character or intentions based on their decision to charge you $10 for this.
It's a pay to watch event due to licensing restrictions around Korean SC2 content.
Is $10 too much for 5+ weeks? Maybe for some and to those folks who feel that way I'd say that I'm sure there will be stream leaks and I'm sure people will share those leaks. That's what happens on the internet.
At some point I hope to change the model on these inter-league events but I have to start somewhere.
(I can also guarantee that none if the $ from this event will go towards a new Porsche.)
On September 26 2012 08:07 Hrrrrm wrote: PPV for cross server qualifier replay content. Wonderful. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Not "premium" content sorry.
Couldn't agree more. Seriously MLG.. either provide us with PREMIUM content, or don't try to pick every last penny from our pockets. Disgraceful.
Yeah fuck these guys how dare they demand the price of a small pizza for an enormous amount of content.
Like they aren't making any money from entry fees for the Online qualifiers, right?
You honestly think they're making anything close to a profit from that? Seriously?
Come on, get real.
I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
Miles behind in what way exactly? Production, yeah DreamHack is better. I don't think its fair to compare production of Asus to an MLG championship as they are two different scales. If we compare to the Arena's i'd say they are pretty damn equal.
But what about in supporting players? How many players does DH or Asus fly to their events? None. How much money does Asus and DH give out? Not near as much as MLG. How many players actually win money at DH and Asus? Not as many as MLG. How many players can compete in DH and Asus? Not even close to MLG.
Yes, MLG is money oriented, they have to be, they are a business. Complaining about a $10 PPV is ridiculous. Its fucking $10. I hope you don't go to the movies or eat out ever.
How can you even compare to Arena to a live audience, the arena's were catastrophicly bad they had no atmosphere at all the finals were like "So I guess I won and thats it" and Arena's were the reason they stopped the PPV model because the viewers dropped after the 2nd or 3rd Prize Pool I think you'll find MLG events were notorious for giving out the lowest amount so let's not go there, put it this way ForGG at Valencia got 40,000 SEK for just runners-up which is about $9k which is almost double the first place used to get at an MLG, nowadays it's alot more.
The PPV is not Wrestlemania, MLG Providence was Wrestlemania it's more like of those meaningless ones which runs upto Wrestlemania - Survivor Series? it's an online tournament, it'll have zero atmosphere and not even a even-level playing field due to server-swapping, you can play from Western Europe to NA on a even field assuming your router isn't a Cereal box but any further distance you're going to get latency whether you like it or not. Yeah I can't pay a stupid $10 because I look after a younger relative, I can't even play subscription based games to make ends meet and now ironically I'm being asked to pay to view a standard game, it wouldn't half surprise me if half the people saying its alright didn't actually pay out their own pockets and sponge off someone else.
So atmosphere is production now? The Arena's had GREAT production. Fantastic 1080p quality, true first person POV, picture in picture, instant replay, it was great. And Asus ROG didn't really have much of a crowd either btw. It was just some people standing behind the players watching.
And now you are bringing up old fucking numbers? MLG was only second to GSL in prize money last year. And its going to be that way this year too. Like I said, MLG pays out more money and pays more players.
Sucks that you can't afford the $10, but guess what? There is a TON of other free sc2 content out there by MLG and every other organization to keep you occupied.
I don't need 1080p to enjoy watching SC2 I can watch it on any stream which doesnt have bad bitrate as on GSL Freeview stream and even then I can see what's going on, I clearly have telescopic eyes.
Anyhow it's come to my understanding from Sundance posting on Reddit that the PPV is down to Kespa wanting their share of the load which I find true so fuck Kespa.
I'm not buying the PPV. It's a terrible idea. I'd understand it if MLG was trying only to sustain itself, but it should be trying to grow and this is a terrible way to go about it.
I'll stick to the free to watch, free vod, constantly rebroadcasted IPL, thanks. If I'm going to pay for something, its gotta be better than whats already free. So like GSL for example. Clearly the best. Deserves the money.
The quantity of content is obviously worth the price, but I'm not really interested in paying to watch cross server bo1s cast from replays. Especially when a lot of the games are likely to be absurdly onesided.
Going back to ppv? what fail: says arenas will be free to watch, goes opps didnt meant that but cant back out now, so makes a invitational insted. Hope no1 pays 4 this "MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends" - LMAO Edit: and its gonna just be joke games cuz of latency
Everything seems great. I will pay mainly to watch Grubby play vs SC1 pros.
I presume there will be VODs for all the games for those like me that can't watch live. I think the format of everything is a little complicated and it hasn't really been communicated that well.
I think more countdowns on the MLG website which shows the hours till X competition starting would be good. Especially if the link shows the games that will be played that night and that by paying you can watch them live or on vods.
It all gets a little complicated unless you are quite a dedicated fan like myself and are willing to figure everything out / know that MLG will put on a good show at the end of the day.
I have a strong feeling Kespa is behind this. Sundance was saying on reddit there is 'licensing restrictions around Korean SC2 content.' Seems like Kespa pushed this despite the fact they don't understand the foreign scene at all and how it operates financially. Cross-server bo1's casted from replays with PPV is just an absurd business model. The production cost for an online tournament like this is next to nothing compared to the inhouse MLG tournaments that were PPV.
On September 26 2012 08:07 Hrrrrm wrote: PPV for cross server qualifier replay content. Wonderful. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Not "premium" content sorry.
On September 26 2012 13:05 walklightwhat wrote: The quantity of content is obviously worth the price, but I'm not really interested in paying to watch cross server bo1s cast from replays. Especially when a lot of the games are likely to be absurdly onesided.
The problem is not the quality or quantity of content that is going to come from MLG with the fact that it is PPV. It is the fact there already is SOOOOOO much free content or content that you already paid for that it is hard to justify. The amount of money from HD passes, gold membership, GSL, SC2 is quickly becoming a fairly expensive activity to watch on a budget.
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
On September 26 2012 15:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: [snipped rather large post]
I'm glad that someone that has been extensively behind the scenes is shutting down that ignorance; MLG and Dreamhack are functionally different, and people should stop comparing them. Both of them can borrow ideas from each other and what do the viewers get? Even better content.
Sadly the format of this tournament (bo1s, not live) is what would make or break a pass sale for me. Everything else is great, but... yea. I understand that the content I'd like is probably not feasible if possible, so there is that.
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
Best MOBA games/players?
Well the best MOBA game, agreed upon by the pro-gaming community, is DotA2. The best players, also play DotA2.
Get your marketing right. Say 'MLG will feature the most popular MOBA game' since that is actually what it is.
Much hate in this one I sense. The dark side, succumb to he surely will
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
As much as u defend their live tournaments it doesn't change the fact that this 1 is not live, its casted from replays played mostly cross server, b01s. Why would people pay to watch this besides kespa name value? there isnt any cuz there is tons of free sc2 content out there that will be better just based on format alone, not even considering that no esf player r in this
My problem with PPV is that there is so much SC2, I have a GSL ticket, and I don't even watch half of it because I don't have the time.
Now combine the fact that there is premium subs for everything else then yeah..
They really should have a free stream at 480, HD in premium and make some VOD restriction like GSL.
If you compare this tournament to that of an arena..
They spend nothing on player transport. The price pool is 16.000$ lower than a normal arena. They take less well known commentaters. They have a bunch of NA guys that most people outside of NA don't really care about. They have a bunch of unknown KeSPA guys that not a whole lot of people care about.
And they want 10$ for this?
The only reason I can think of this being more expensive is if they had to pay KeSPA to get their players involved.
On September 26 2012 14:59 cletas wrote: The problem is not the quality or quantity of content that is going to come from MLG with the fact that it is PPV. It is the fact there already is SOOOOOO much free content or content that you already paid for that it is hard to justify. The amount of money from HD passes, gold membership, GSL, SC2 is quickly becoming a fairly expensive activity to watch on a budget.
You're kidding, right?
You can watch nearly everything, everywhere for free. There is no budget involved because there is not money spent.
There a handful of Code A matches from GOM that you can't watch for free and now a handful of cross-realm, replay-casted matches from MLG that you can't watch for free.
Everything else you can watch in at least 480p (except GOM, which is awful quality on free or premium).
I don't really understand. Will there be VOD for the ones whi have paid ? Because I live in France and I won't be able to watch the games except if i stay awake all the night... I work all the week that's why i need the VODs...
By the way, paying 10$ is nothing... It's like going to watch a movie or eating one menu at McDonlalds... Instead of paying for that silly luxuries, pay for Flash for god's sake...
Edit : oh nevermind, there will be VODs. Definetely going to pay 10 bucks !
Umm 150+ week 1 matchups on the MLG page? I'd assume each bolded title is a broadcast day giving 2 broadcasts per week for 4 weeks before the playoffs.
I expect it to flop as well. OSL and PL did not have good viewer numbers. The majority of the viewers did not play BW. So i think the majority doesn't really care about the KeSPA players. As hard as it sounds, i think that is really the case. Either way, i'll not watch it.
Maybe i'll buy a pass for this (or something you need to watch) Apperently it's very hard for some people to accept that companies need cash flow and that there are different ways of obtaning it. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's very simple. For anyone who thinks they can tell mlg what they should or should not do from a moralistic point of view, just piss off, don't act so spoiled.
Obviously, if someone decides to not buy, no problem.
On September 26 2012 17:01 Yorbon wrote: Maybe i'll buy a pass for this (or something you need to watch) Apperently it's very hard for some people to accept that companies need cash flow and that there are different ways of obtaning it. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's very simple. For anyone who thinks they can tell mlg what they should or should not do from a moralistic point of view, just piss off, don't act so spoiled.
Obviously, if someone decides to not buy, no problem.
Yet all the other sporting foundations are able to fund purely off of commercial revenue. It's MLG being greedy...
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
Thank you for writing this. I'm so tired of all the "MLG take note" ranting after every Dreamhack events from people who seem to have the insight of 14 year old girls that claim with the strongest conviction that Justin Bieber is the biggest musical talent the world has ever seen.
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
Thank you for writing this. I'm so tired of all the "MLG take note" ranting after every Dreamhack events from people who seem to have the insight of 14 year old girls that claim with the strongest conviction that Justin Bieber is the biggest musical talent the world has ever seen.
So much consternation over $10. I bet people give less thought to giving ten bucks to a hobo on the street than to something that supports their hobby. Take my money MLG, I hope it's not wasted.
Due to the players participating (only 6 Europeans, too many mediocre NA-players and a whole bunch of faceless koreans), the MvP-tournament was something I wasn't too interested in in the first place. Therefore, I don't really mind that it's behind a paywall - I'm not even remotely tempted to buy a pass considering the list of players participating.
On September 26 2012 17:50 Jigsy wrote: Make it start 2 hours earlier and I pay.
Otherwise I will not because I don't have the privilege to start watching a video game in the middle of the night on a weekday.
There will be VODS so you can watch whenever its most convienient to you. $10 5 weeks of amazing games- seriously guys some of you should live in the real world. You get world class proffessonal entertainment and complain that its not free. "MLG are being greedy" no unfortunately people can't afford to work for free what with the whole having to buy food, pay rent etc... Sorry you will miss out but some of us will support it and enjoy it. I live in the UK so VODs not a problem, no one complains about watching a movie because its not live.
If im paying for an event to view the cutting edge of high level players that is played over battlenet, not at a venue or something, then cross server is unacceptable, I have 33ms 0jitter to various english servers 3-500 miles away, but 510ms ping and 105ms jitter to Seoul, eu to kr is the worst cross server by far, but there is no point paying to view a high level of play, kespa players, nani, few others, if their play and ability and more importantly unit control is going to be destroyed by ~200+ms ping. That alone is almost a complete dealbreaker.
Secondly, and no offense to them, but Axslav and Axeltoss are not top tier casters, there are others that i and many others would pay for. If it had a free low bitrate stream and wasnt cross server, sure, id tune in to watch them, think about buying after a while, but that brings me to third point:
Casting from replays.
If the tournament is casted from replays then its just not the same, i dont even want to watch it. There have been too many games spoiled, and too many games played a week to several months in advance, or in mismatched orders, and in general it destroys the special feeling you get from watching a LIVESTREAM, and makes everything feel disconnected and meh at best
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
i think that the overall experience with dreamhack is better, than what mlg does. mlg does probably have the better production facilities, the better players, the better casters, but it all depends on what you do with the facilities you have. what dreamhack does is simply the best out there in terms of how the final product feels and looks for the viewer.
also dreamhack does a perfect job, when it comes to informing people when the next game will be on. i dont really have to worry about timezones, because they already show their own clock and right below the time of the next game. and all of that happens on stream, not in some website i have to open next to the stream. in mlgs all we get is "drg vs violet coming soon/up next" no time or timespan given. this is really annoying and confusing. of course its easier for dreamhack to show times of the next games, as there is only one big stream, but still..having multiple streams is not an excuse for not giving information on when exactly the next game starts, as they probably have more staff the more streams they offer.
i also prefer the simple twitch.tv player for watching livestreams, just like dh does it as i always had bad experience with the mlg live page. it just sucks too much cpu. much much more than the normal twitch.tv player, which is almost perfect and even remembering my quality and sound settings.
those 2 things are just making the final product of mlgs much worse for consumers than what dreamhack offers.
Huh, coming off Valencia I thought Sundance understood that the numbers are very important. You could easily do it the way previous MLGs were, with some of the matches for free in SD and the rest available in HD for a pass. I absolutely understand they need the money, just to it the smart way.
On September 26 2012 17:50 Jigsy wrote: Make it start 2 hours earlier and I pay.
Otherwise I will not because I don't have the privilege to start watching a video game in the middle of the night on a weekday.
There will be VODS so you can watch whenever its most convienient to you. $10 5 weeks of amazing games- seriously guys some of you should live in the real world. You get world class proffessonal entertainment and complain that its not free. "MLG are being greedy" no unfortunately people can't afford to work for free what with the whole having to buy food, pay rent etc... Sorry you will miss out but some of us will support it and enjoy it. I live in the UK so VODs not a problem, no one complains about watching a movie because its not live.
#1 Watching VODS isn't the same viewing experience. #2 In the REAL world I pay for entertainment when I have the time to get entertained. Paying for a pass when I cant watch it would be like if I buy a car but don't have a drivers licence. #3 Im not bashing over MLG because they are greedy. Because for one, greed is good and also I would bash them for their downtime between games, bad streaming player/plugin or annoying ads even If you buy a pass. #4 You can't compare watching a movie that is not live with a MLG because again, starcraft is a esport and just like regular sport: watching live> watching rebroadcast together with everyone else > watching solo forever alone Since i don't have the possibility to participate at the first or second event, I favor spending my time watching a smaller sc2 tournament which I can watch life. Also, watching a movie with friends makes more fun than watching it alone.
It's hilarious that people are whining about MLG being greedy, but want weeks and weeks of high-level Starcraft II content, for free. How is that not being greedy? I agree that cross-server replays will be annoying at times, but come on, we're talking about over a hundred games with some of the best Starcraft (BW) players ever, as well as a bunch of "MLG" players. I mean come on.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to watch because I'm out of money to spend this month, but I think the idea is good and I'll pay for it if something similar comes around a second time.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to watch because I'm out of money to spend this month, but I think the idea is good and I'll pay for it if something similar comes around a second time.
Would you like a gun to shoot yourself in the foot as well?
On September 26 2012 17:01 Yorbon wrote: Maybe i'll buy a pass for this (or something you need to watch) Apperently it's very hard for some people to accept that companies need cash flow and that there are different ways of obtaning it. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's very simple. For anyone who thinks they can tell mlg what they should or should not do from a moralistic point of view, just piss off, don't act so spoiled.
Obviously, if someone decides to not buy, no problem.
Yet all the other sporting foundations are able to fund purely off of commercial revenue. It's MLG being greedy...
So, apparently you have never heard of "NFL Sunday ticket", or equivalent for MLB or NBA. Apparently, you have never heard of PPV boxing prize fights. Apparently, you have never heard of the UFC. Apparently, you have never bought tickets to a major sporting event. Apparently, you have not paid for television service to get sports channels. APPARENTLY, you are just an ignorant ass spewing BS.
I don't mind VODs because I can't stay up all night. Instead I can sit down with my dinner enjoy games- pause when I need to get a drink or comfort break and not have to dash back and hope I haven't missed anything- plus I can skip over any dull matches and no boring filler. I live in the UK don't pay for Sky so have never been able to watch live soccer matches on tv- instead I always have to watch the recorded highlight shows in the evening- not a problem I can still enjoy the matches as long as I avoid hearing about the results. And its only $10 to watch the sickest match ups. I don't care if the game was played the day before my excitement from watching the game unfold infront of me is still the same.
On September 26 2012 18:39 Zealously wrote: It's hilarious that people are whining about MLG being greedy, but want weeks and weeks of high-level Starcraft II content, for free. How is that not being greedy? I agree that cross-server replays will be annoying at times, but come on, we're talking about over a hundred games with some of the best Starcraft (BW) players ever, as well as a bunch of "MLG" players. I mean come on.
Not to mention also wanting it in 720p/1080p with 60 FPS alongside the most well-known commentators and the best analysing post-game with minimal downtime with no ads; also free VoDs and replays and to be viewed live at an optimal time for both Americans and Europeans. Definitely not greedy.
On September 26 2012 18:23 Trizz wrote: Jesus christ fuck PPV, I'm so sick and tired of these money hungry c****. As if paid HD isn't enough.
You do realize that mlg didn't even make any profit until a few years back? If these people were money hungry most of them would have quit esports when cgs went down the drain. Don't judge mlg if you have only been following them since star 2, because if thats the case you have no idea about the passion all of these people have for esports. If you don't like how they try to not be poor while working in esports then don't pay, don't give a shit, all you do by stating your opinion is giving the more attention. If thats what you really want at least do it without insulting people who have put more blood and sweat into making esports a legitimate business then you ever will.
If I can help the company that has brought me over 5 years of joy by paying 10 dollar to watch white guys get crushed by the most professional gamers on this planet then I'll gladly do it. If you don't then at least be polite about it.
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
MLG doesn't release replays. That's enough for me to say Dreamhack blows them out of the water.
Its interesting that MLG thinks replays being casted are worth it as PPV. Also to note MLG site says "Broadcast in up to 1080p". Is this just like how internet service providers claim you get up to "x" mbs download speed?(but usually don't receive that), or is it a guarantee that you get 1080p HD?
On a side note, its also pretty obvious now why MLG refuses to release replays now. Its not because of some ddos crap like they claimed before, its because they want to limit the amount of free content of their events to urge people to pay. While it might be good for business in one way, I think its a bit over the top.
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
I dont know. You're probably not giving the "feel" of the tournaments enough credit. Take the EG-Curse film being played right after Stephano gets knocked out. That doesnt make the games better. It doesnt make the production better. It doesnt mean theres more high caliber players. The video itself is mediocre downtime-filling. And playing it isnt exaclty a "hard" move to do, doesnt require any flashy technology or anything.
Yet that move creates a 100+ comment thread of reddit, makes several SC2-celebrities laugh on twitter and makes the TL LR thread explode. It really adds to the "feeling" of a tournament.
Take the average 60yo TV-veteran whos been in the business forever. Is he gonna like MLG or DH more? Likely MLG. The EG-Curse film wont get any bonus points in his book, and DH will likely look less professional. Then take an average 18yo male nerd and have him watch MLG for a weekend and DH the next weekend. Then ask him which tourny he had the most fun watching. My guess is a majority will answer DH.
MLG doesn't feel like a nerd lan ala eu tournys or have the charm and depth of talent of korean events, it seems more like some fake corporate cash in on par with american football casts. Too much flashy bullshit nobody cares about and certainly don't want to pay for.
Dreamhack has fallen too recently with those retarded couch interviews.
TB Telling it as it is. I too am surprised that people actually think the production is better over at Dreamhack compared to MLG. thats just insane. I mean sure the music was amazing, and I loved their 60fps which is far superior to 1080p in my opinion, but in terms of content, stream selection and analysis, its not close.
On September 26 2012 20:30 Cartel wrote: TB Telling it as it is. I too am surprised that people actually think the production is better over at Dreamhack compared to MLG. thats just insane. I mean sure the music was amazing, and I loved their 60fps which is far superior to 1080p in my opinion, but in terms of content, stream selection and analysis, its not close.
Agreed. MLG production is probably better. And if esports wants to move more into mainstream media, thats definitely the way to do it. I would say Dreamhack content is better, or at least better for the general audience which is watching this (15-30yo males). Seems its a matter of catering to a wider audience or just focusing on the already present one.
On September 26 2012 20:30 Cartel wrote: TB Telling it as it is. I too am surprised that people actually think the production is better over at Dreamhack compared to MLG. thats just insane. I mean sure the music was amazing, and I loved their 60fps which is far superior to 1080p in my opinion, but in terms of content, stream selection and analysis, its not close.
Agreed. MLG production is probably better. And if esports wants to move more into mainstream media, thats definitely the way to do it. I would say Dreamhack content is better, or at least better for the general audience which is watching this (15-30yo males). Seems its a matter of catering to a wider audience or just focusing on the already present one.
yeah cause the mainstream cares about production, lol
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
One thing you got wrong is that dreamhack is only in 720p, there is an option for higher quality which is "720p+" which has better quality than the 720p one though i don't know the resolution on this, also if I'm not mistaken the 720p+ is the only one with 60 fps.
On September 26 2012 20:50 Fjodorov wrote: Is the MvP Invitational live? I would suppose it is since its PPV but i havent seen any confirmation that it is.
Jewdance DiJewvanni is at it again... Seriously why would you make THIS event ppv? It would get so much more viewers and revenue if you made it free since it involves kespa players
On September 26 2012 20:32 Lomm wrote: I will never support MLG again after that PPV stunt. Dreamhack all the way baby, and yes, DH is superioir in every aspect that I as a watcher want a coverage to be.
You should think about both sides of the coin. WCS Europe Finals is a whole different thing than for example DH Valenica (as u seen last week). I like both of them (MLG and Dreamhack) but biasing around because they implement content which is PPV and saying you wont ever support them anymore it's BS, i'm pretty sure you will tune in once you see that an MLG Championchip is online... and i'm not talking about arenas or stuff like this one. It's ok to have content which is PPV and not completely free. It's a different marketing model, nothing more.
People like you should think about what they say first. If you really appreciate ONLY watching DH with many players that nobody wants to see (for example Targa - who wins against a far superior player with a slow ling all-in) then jeah, enjoy your show. I like watching both but i would miss MLG mainly because they got the best players on the planet. Why does MLG have better player lineups you ask? MLG puts up bigger price pools, they can do this because they have better sponsorships and in general a more profitable marketing model (PPV for example generates money for that big prize pools too). Another thing to add is that MLG pays way more players for taking part than DH, DH only pays out for the top tier finishers (which is ok, it's their model).
Again, the thing you say is BS. You only think about your own pocket and how much Media you can consume without spending a single cent on it. IF you would talking about helping eSports grow, 10 $ would be ok for you for 5 !!! Weeks of SC2 content filled with Kespa, GSL and best foreign players. You are nothing more than that pointless rebelist who likes to see eSports die because u dont wanna pay entrance to an event, not pay for what you see and as a result the guys who work in that (Players, Organizers, Managers) won't make money. At the end of the day what you ask for is a McDonalds restaurant which offers you something to eat for 5 Weeks, but you rebell against it and say "Fuck y**, i want to eat for free for 5 weeks". You have to understand that the money Axslav gets for example (casting this) has to come from somewhere. In general many TL and Reddit users really dont use their brains it seems :-7
EDIT: The most funny thing is that many guys - even if an event is free or if they watch player streams - they got their Addblock activated because thats how much they support them. So they don't even get the money for adds because half of the viewers actually don't get them.
I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
On September 26 2012 20:56 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
Please for the love all that is holy don't start with "support esport" shit again. It's basically begging to pay for it even tough you don't think its worth it just cause "it supports esports" and its quite frankly sickening. If i think something is worth the money i will pay for it (payed for GSL ever since season 2). I however don't need someone to tell me that i have to pay for it to support esports. If the person you replied won't support MLG cause they have PPV its his own choise and there is absolutely no reason to try to make him feel guilty with this crap.
On September 26 2012 20:50 Fjodorov wrote: Is the MvP Invitational live? I would suppose it is since its PPV but i havent seen any confirmation that it is.
It is casted from replays.
Oh, that is disappointing. I dont think PPV casting replays will be a viable business in the future, even if this particular event might go well. Seems strange to me.
On September 26 2012 20:56 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
Please for the love all that is holy don't start with "support esport" shit again. It's basically begging to pay for it even tough you don't think its worth it just cause "it supports esports" and its quite frankly sickening. If i think something is worth the money i will pay for it (payed for GSL ever since season 2). I however don't need someone to tell me that i have to pay for it to support esports. If the person you replied won't support MLG cause they have PPV its his own choise and there is absolutely no reason to try to make him feel guilty with this crap.
Did i even mentioned your name o.O WTF !? I dont say people have to pay for this one to safe eSports -.- what i say is that this guy i quoted for example won't help anyone if he NEVER ever will tune in to MLG events (and i bet he will) just because they got this one event that is PPV
Helping eSports grow is such a bullshit argument. It's entertainment not charity, and the only thing that will make eSports grow is if the people producing it get it to bigger audiences, which you think would be priority number one.
PPV events aren't helping eSports grow, they are for lining MLG's pockets.
On September 26 2012 20:56 ULuMuGuLu wrote: I totally agree with what TotalBiscuit said about MLG and other tournaments. You guys should really start thinking about the guys involved in eSports not only about yourself if you wanna support eSports in general -.- and stupid comments like the one i quoted are exactly the wrong way to do it.
Please for the love all that is holy don't start with "support esport" shit again. It's basically begging to pay for it even tough you don't think its worth it just cause "it supports esports" and its quite frankly sickening. If i think something is worth the money i will pay for it (payed for GSL ever since season 2). I however don't need someone to tell me that i have to pay for it to support esports. If the person you replied won't support MLG cause they have PPV its his own choise and there is absolutely no reason to try to make him feel guilty with this crap.
Yeah the whole "support esports" thing got old fast. "Supporting Esports" or do you mean "buy my product"? Its funny how people try and make it seem like you are helping cure cancer or changing the world. "Supporting Esports" is more like putting money into business-people's pockets lol. Its not about esports, its about them making money. My post is starting to sound pretty redundant I know, but i'm so tired of people saying this shit.
On September 26 2012 20:55 AcesAnoka wrote: Jewdance DiJewvanni is at it again... Seriously why would you make THIS event ppv? It would get so much more viewers and revenue if you made it free since it involves kespa players
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
You've commented on verbatim accusations instead of on thought process behind it. I imagine what most viewers compare is value of a free options, instead of maximum of the free DH and premium content by MLG. So to keep focus on resolutions - they compare 720p to 240p instead of 1080 to 720 max. I wanted to include how virtually negligible cost of a pass in a western country is, but after trying to compare what 9-12 bucks can buy in US and Poland... Well, shit - it's not _that_ expensive here either (I'll actually pay more seeing Avengers if I'd get coke and popcorn (or MDMD and nachos, ho ho ho)).
On September 26 2012 21:22 Vorgrim wrote: Helping eSports grow is such a bullshit argument. It's entertainment not charity, and the only thing that will make eSports grow is if the people producing it get it to bigger audiences, which you think would be priority number one.
PPV events aren't helping eSports grow, they are for lining MLG's pockets.
Jeah and how do you think you can help getting bigger audiences? I bet by investing more. How you can invest more? Somehow make money before the real events starts which is this little event (Stuff like MLG Championchips which are FREE to watch for gods sake). Man you guys think so onedimensional that it hurts my fckin but to read these stupid comments most of the 15 year olds make in this thread. Do you guys even understand ANYTHING about economics or business that you try to tell MLG what they do wrong, when they actually seem to do the best job out there producing the best tournaments.
You guys compare MLG with WCS Europe without knowing it. WCS EU was helped to produce by DH, nothing more. It was no Dreamhack Event at all. It was a BLIZZARD EVENT! Blizzard is a fiancially strong business on their own so they don't rely on stuff like commercials for Dr.Pepper or the newest internet connection in sweden to get the stuff running. They financed it. THAT's why that event was so amazing because there was a LOT of money involved. There's a reason why dreamhack pay out the winner only 7000 € in their own tournaments, which compared to other tournaments is nothing. there are several tournaments where the 4th place makes the same amount of money.
Sure, it's all about viewers but to gain viewers attention you need to invest more too. Because more investment means everything: Better players attending, better production, better prize money. What you guys think is that the fact that you just tune in to stuff like DH, it automatically produces enough for them to finance the whole event and make tons of money (which is just not true at all!).
I thought the PPV arenas were actually worth it because they were live games and it literally had the best Code S GSL players at the time competing, but asking for money to show replay casts of foreigners vs kespa players, who we all know are not GSL Code S level is a bit much. There will be lag, terribly one sided games and even though they are KeSPA players playing SC2, the hype has somewhat disappeared, I would have possibly bought this 6 months ago, not now.
Why does everyone need to argue about every single thing seriously ... People who can afford it and want to pay for it will pay for it and people who don't care/can't afford it won't pay for it. I don't see the point of arguing. If not enough people will pay it will fail by itself and that's a bigger statement than crying about it on a forum just saying
On September 26 2012 21:41 neurosx wrote: Why does everyone need to argue about every single thing seriously ... People who can afford it and want to pay for it will pay for it and people who don't care/can't afford it won't pay for it. I don't see the point of arguing. If not enough people will pay it will fail by itself and that's a bigger statement than crying about it on a forum just saying
Your statement is very solid and true, the reason why we argue is because there are little crybabys out there who say: "GODDAAAAAMN RAGE RAGE RAGE... A PPV EVENT!!!! I WON'T EEEEEEEEEEEEVER TUNE IN TO ANY MLG EVENT... EVEEEER AGAAAAAIN GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! DH ALL THE WAY BABY IN ANY ASPECT!!!!"
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
Thanks so much for giving us more insight on how each events work. Its been silly lately with all the DH is better bandwagon/circle jerk.
How about instead of pitting the tournament organizers against each other, we help get them to the level of production of something outside esports, like espn? To much time and energy gets devoted into pitting them against each other.
another note, its 10 bucks for 6 weeks, is it really THAT bad?
I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
MLG is going for people who are willing to pay for their product, not people who are willing to shit talk on forums. If they fuck up on price or quality then they have to deal with the consequences. I have no reason to purchase anything, as whenever I can watch something live by happenstance that its a free featured stream then that's good enough for me!
On September 26 2012 22:44 Swish 41 wrote: So failed. A Online Tournament as PPV only lol. I don't think more than 100 people will pay for that...
I think there will more than that. As we can see on these forums there are alot of "esports patriots" who are on the noble mission to develop esports with there wallets, no matter what. Either you are with us or you are against us! charming really...
This format is terrible. It's 2012, wake up MLG. Nobody wants to see NA invites who never deliver, like Idra or Huk. Besides, the first rounds are Kespa vs. Kespa and not-Kespa vs not-Kespa? This format is biased as hell and i hope only few people are attracted to this.
Also, PPV is often associated with Live-events. Maybe the term should have been coined differently, like "MLG Autumn ticket" or something similar to avoid bad associations.
On September 26 2012 22:56 kusto wrote: This format is terrible. It's 2012, wake up MLG. Nobody wants to see NA invites who never deliver, like Idra or Huk. Besides, the first rounds are Kespa vs. Kespa and not-Kespa vs not-Kespa? This format is biased as hell and i hope only few people are attracted to this.
Also, PPV is often associated with Live-events. Maybe the term should have been coined differently, like "MLG Autumn ticket" or something similar to avoid bad associations.
Someone obviously doesn't read, since you don't know the format after it's been stated so many times in different threads.
I just feel bad for idra. He's up against Stork, Jangbi, and Last. The poor guys doesn't stand a chance. I would like to see something besides PPV only. I probably wont buy it just because most of the match ups look really one sided. I suppose there is always a chance for an upset
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
This, how many different concepts did we see this year? First season (winter) 1 PPV Arena, second season 2 PPV arena's, then suddenly MLG doesn't need PPV because there is a sponsor so back to semi PPV like the championships but back to 1 Arena and now the Arena's are gone and they jump on a PPV online tournament airing replays... Que?
It's a big mess, but i guess MLG loves attention or something
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
This, how many different concepts did we see this year? First season (winter) 1 PPV Arena, second season 2 PPV arena's, then suddenly MLG doesn't need PPV because there is a sponsor so back to semi PPV like the championships but back to 1 Arena and now the Arena's are gone and they jump on a PPV online tournament airing replays... Que?
It's a big mess, but i guess MLG loves attention or something
This whole "esports" thing is still being figured out, especially outside of korea. I would expect more changes to happen before anything becomes "standard"
On September 26 2012 22:44 Swish 41 wrote: So failed. A Online Tournament as PPV only lol. I don't think more than 100 people will pay for that...
I think there will more than that. As we can see on these forums there are alot of "esports patriots" who are on the noble mission to develop esports with there wallets, no matter what. Either you are with us or you are against us! charming really...
Well yes, in this case it is that simple. You either buy it, or you don't.
MOBA (Wednesdays at 7pm ET) – Free to Watch Wednesday nights at MLG will feature the best MOBA games and players. League of Legends matchups will be featured this Fall in the ongoing series - MLG Prizefights presented by BIC® Flex4® Razors. On September 26 at 7pm ET, fans can watch a Counter Logic Gaming showmatch as team CLG Prime takes on CLG EU. Commentary will be provided by Tom "Optimus" Searfoss and Chris "MonteCristo" Mykles. Weekly MOBA broadcasts will also include the Finals of the MLG League of Legends Gamebattles Tournaments.
Best MOBA games/players?
Well the best MOBA game, agreed upon by the pro-gaming community, is DotA2. The best players, also play DotA2.
Get your marketing right. Say 'MLG will feature the most popular MOBA game' since that is actually what it is.
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
MLG know exactly how to identify themselves. They're the only tournament that's kept that consistent since 2010. They are trying to be the MLB of gaming. Whether you LIKE the way they identify themselves is a different matter entirely.
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
This, how many different concepts did we see this year? First season (winter) 1 PPV Arena, second season 2 PPV arena's, then suddenly MLG doesn't need PPV because there is a sponsor so back to semi PPV like the championships but back to 1 Arena and now the Arena's are gone and they jump on a PPV online tournament airing replays... Que?
It's a big mess, but i guess MLG loves attention or something
This whole "esports" thing is still being figured out, especially outside of korea. I would expect more changes to happen before anything becomes "standard"
Your right there but to many changes isn't good, how can you build up your audience when you constantly chance your own products, especially paid products in a scene where almost everything is free?
I just dont get it, im not saying there should be a standard or something but chancing it every few months is ridiculous and it's not really showing any long term thinking.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Vorgrim wrote: Helping eSports grow is such a bullshit argument. It's entertainment not charity, and the only thing that will make eSports grow is if the people producing it get it to bigger audiences, which you think would be priority number one.
PPV events aren't helping eSports grow, they are for lining MLG's pockets.
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
This, how many different concepts did we see this year? First season (winter) 1 PPV Arena, second season 2 PPV arena's, then suddenly MLG doesn't need PPV because there is a sponsor so back to semi PPV like the championships but back to 1 Arena and now the Arena's are gone and they jump on a PPV online tournament airing replays... Que?
It's a big mess, but i guess MLG loves attention or something
I fail to see what their payment options have to do with their identity.
On September 26 2012 23:03 rwadams wrote: I just feel bad for idra. He's up against Stork, Jangbi, and Last. The poor guys doesn't stand a chance. I would like to see something besides PPV only. I probably wont buy it just because most of the match ups look really one sided. I suppose there is always a chance for an upset
No, he's up against every single KeSPA player... -_-
It's 24 matches, each of the 24 non-KeSPA players plays each of the 24 KeSPA players.
On September 26 2012 08:25 TehAntiphobia wrote: PPV.... Some of us have wife, and children, and really cant justify paying 10 bucks for something with no value other than enterainment
Dreamhack and IPL is where the fun is at nowadays. Sorry Mlg, your time has come, GL hitting the 70k viewers + other streams + Swedish Tv that Dreamhack got the other day.
Maybe its just me but id much rather see MLG pick up dota and not LoL, but oh well.
I like what mlg is doing and they probably couldn't offer the content that they are providing us without there being some sort of user end costs involved.
We get to watch kespa players play, and its only a 10$ ticket, are you seriously bitching this bad over a 10$ ticket, when mlg is giving us an amazing product.
Also thanks to TB for his commentary on the matter.
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
MLG know exactly how to identify themselves. They're the only tournament that's kept that consistent since 2010. They are trying to be the MLB of gaming. Whether you LIKE the way they identify themselves is a different matter entirely.
How can you say that? They are experimenting formats and trying different concepts. How is that keeping it consistent?
On September 26 2012 22:00 AlternativeEgo wrote: I get the feeling that MLG is lost and don't know how to identify itself. They did their thing that made it THE event to look for and now they are all over the place. I lost interest in MLG this year and by the smaller LR threads it seems like I'm not the only one.
I wish MLG good luck in finding its thing/soul but I will not be participating in this event. The competition over my attention is just too hard for a package like this.
MLG know exactly how to identify themselves. They're the only tournament that's kept that consistent since 2010. They are trying to be the MLB of gaming. Whether you LIKE the way they identify themselves is a different matter entirely.
How can you say that? They are experimenting formats and trying different concepts. How is that keeping it consistent?
Doing different kinds of tournaments means they can't "identify" themselves now? In what universe? The brand, the presentation, the production and the overall style are all consistent. They do not have a problem when it comes to identifying themselves, they are the professional MLB style league aimed at the more hardcore fans. This tournament is yet another example of that, a PPV with some of the best in the world, aimed at the hardcore fans.
On September 26 2012 07:05 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Again with the Pay Per View. omfg.... Really I hope no one buys it.
Yes...... why are they sticking it to Starcraft and not MOBA games? just don't do it. Maybe give an option to pay for a super high quality stream, but give free streams. Please.
So the season will be nothing but a complete stomp by KeSPA players against poor foreigners (exept Stephano)? I can see why they are doing this, it is just not fair to invite players just based on their team. Luckily for me most of my favorite players are already qualified for the Fall championship.
On September 26 2012 21:41 neurosx wrote: Why does everyone need to argue about every single thing seriously ... People who can afford it and want to pay for it will pay for it and people who don't care/can't afford it won't pay for it. I don't see the point of arguing. If not enough people will pay it will fail by itself and that's a bigger statement than crying about it on a forum just saying
Your statement is very solid and true, the reason why we argue is because there are little crybabys out there who say: "GODDAAAAAMN RAGE RAGE RAGE... A PPV EVENT!!!! I WON'T EEEEEEEEEEEEVER TUNE IN TO ANY MLG EVENT... EVEEEER AGAAAAAIN GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! DH ALL THE WAY BABY IN ANY ASPECT!!!!"
And then we got the lovely counter argument: WAAAAAWAAAAAAAAA YOU NEED TO SUPPORT ESPORTS, WHY YOU NO PAAAAAAAY! YOU NEED TO GIVE MONEY TO DEVELOP SCENE EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRODUCT! FEEL BAD ! THINK OF THE PEOPLE WORKING IN EEEEEEEEEESPORT!
On September 26 2012 23:03 rwadams wrote: I just feel bad for idra. He's up against Stork, Jangbi, and Last. The poor guys doesn't stand a chance. I would like to see something besides PPV only. I probably wont buy it just because most of the match ups look really one sided. I suppose there is always a chance for an upset
No, he's up against every single KeSPA player... -_-
It's 24 matches, each of the 24 non-KeSPA players plays each of the 24 KeSPA players.
I was referring to his first group, but I suppose you are correct as well. It's just a painfully difficult first set, morale wise.
Long live the ESF! but this actually may place further strain on the Kespa v ESF relationship. Scarlett's issue was obvious as she was streaming in dial-up(?) and probably couldn't manage a connection to EU servers never mind KR.
On September 26 2012 21:41 neurosx wrote: Why does everyone need to argue about every single thing seriously ... People who can afford it and want to pay for it will pay for it and people who don't care/can't afford it won't pay for it. I don't see the point of arguing. If not enough people will pay it will fail by itself and that's a bigger statement than crying about it on a forum just saying
Your statement is very solid and true, the reason why we argue is because there are little crybabys out there who say: "GODDAAAAAMN RAGE RAGE RAGE... A PPV EVENT!!!! I WON'T EEEEEEEEEEEEVER TUNE IN TO ANY MLG EVENT... EVEEEER AGAAAAAIN GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! DH ALL THE WAY BABY IN ANY ASPECT!!!!"
And then we got the lovely counter argument: WAAAAAWAAAAAAAAA YOU NEED TO SUPPORT ESPORTS, WHY YOU NO PAAAAAAAY! YOU NEED TO GIVE MONEY TO DEVELOP SCENE EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRODUCT! FEEL BAD ! THINK OF THE PEOPLE WORKING IN EEEEEEEEEESPORT!
On September 26 2012 15:41 Toyman69 wrote: As much as u defend their live tournaments it doesn't change the fact that this 1 is not live, its casted from replays played mostly cross server, b01s. Why would people pay to watch this besides kespa name value? there isnt any cuz there is tons of free sc2 content out there that will be better just based on format alone, not even considering that no esf player r in this
Hardcore fans will no doubt watch it. Casual fans will probably pass on it. That's the nature of PPV and it's always going to end up being that way.
We had this discussion previously when the last PPV argument came up. My argument remains the same, PPV events that otherwise would not have happened, happen because they are actually affordable. The lower viewer numbers don't matter because each individual viewer provides FAR more. The problem I have with the MLG Arena setup is putting a pay-wall in front of something which directly influences a free event. If you're going to do PPV like this I want to see it be a stand-alone thing so that viewers aren't forced to pay to watch a storyline that affects the storyline of the next tournament.
PPV is a sustainable business model, sustainable business models are good for eSports, lest we forget what happens when eSports is built on an unsustainable foundation.
So the season will be nothing but a complete stomp by KeSPA players against poor foreigners (exept Stephano)? I can see why they are doing this, it is just not fair to invite players just based on their team. Luckily for me most of my favorite players are already qualified for the Fall championship.
Foreigners will do well, not every kespa players are gosu yet. I would not be surprised if it ended up 50:50
It's funny how it comes to appeals to supporting esports when it's a league on this side of the world treating ESF players unfairly. Actually this is the most explicit example of ESF players being treated as second class Korean gamers so far but everyone is lining up to pay MLG to watch? And it's over a transcontinental (aka lag fest) online, replay casted tournament of all things.
Isn't this the exact kind of tournament people should be boycotting considering the fervour raised over Kespa-ESF drama last time (and virtually all in ESF's favour, confusingly enough, since they are basically being neglected in this tournament)?
On September 26 2012 09:23 Fogger wrote: Oh my I've never seen so many tears for 10$ of great content before. I think 10 is well worth the content and would much rather spend it on this than a movie of the same value.
I dont mind the price. I just dont think the matches will be very good. Im expecting to see a LOT of NA players get trounced by korean and europeans alike... except for Scarlett, our great white hope
On September 26 2012 09:23 Fogger wrote: Oh my I've never seen so many tears for 10$ of great content before. I think 10 is well worth the content and would much rather spend it on this than a movie of the same value.
I dont mind the price. I just dont think the matches will be very good. Im expecting to see a LOT of NA players get trounced by korean and europeans alike... except for Scarlett, our great white hope
I think atleast 3 people in this page alone has said Scarlett's withdrawn.
Again pain per view... ffs. They are trying to make us pay again under the "build esports banner". Just make more ingame advertisement! EG is paying for a whole team with advertising, and they can not pay for a single tournament?
On September 26 2012 09:23 Fogger wrote: Oh my I've never seen so many tears for 10$ of great content before. I think 10 is well worth the content and would much rather spend it on this than a movie of the same value.
I dont mind the price. I just dont think the matches will be very good. Im expecting to see a LOT of NA players get trounced by korean and europeans alike... except for Scarlett, our great white hope
I don't think 10$ is a bad price point for a ppv sc2 event. I just think that the quality of the content is clearly not worth it. They are selling replays with commentary. Nothing all too special about it. If it was an MLG championship for 10 bux, sure thats hella worth it. Live crowd, tons of interviews, tons of stuff etc etc, but those are free :D. Replays with commentary is not very exciting for me. I can get it anywhere for free.
On September 26 2012 09:23 Fogger wrote: Oh my I've never seen so many tears for 10$ of great content before. I think 10 is well worth the content and would much rather spend it on this than a movie of the same value.
I dont mind the price. I just dont think the matches will be very good. Im expecting to see a LOT of NA players get trounced by korean and europeans alike... except for Scarlett, our great white hope
I think atleast 3 people in this page alone has said Scarlett's withdrawn.
I didn't want to believe them until I found proof, but here it is. Confirmed by MLG Adam + Show Spoiler +
I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
Always found DH to have poor competition too and remember the ones mana and thorzain won were some of the weakest competition I've seen in a major tournament ever. They get very few top and interesting koreans (besides MC) as well and just the ones on foreign teams. I've usually only watched DH towards the end, but saw some of valencia and that was a trainwreck day 1. No player ever shown, delays before games longer than what MLG has ever done. Was just a very poor show all around. I will always watch MLG championships, but DH is something I can live without.
Echoing TotalBiscuit (seriously, this guy has the best opinions on eSports business it seems) it annoys me that I'd need to pay 10$ just to not be totally in the dark with respect to MLG Fall Champs. What's more, this whole tournament is basically glorified seeding of KeSPA players into an MLG. It just rubs me the wrong way. It's understandable that MLG wants KeSPA players at their event, but to basically guarantee them spots in the group stage is immensely unfair to everyone, including them.
On September 27 2012 03:19 Shiori wrote: Echoing TotalBiscuit (seriously, this guy has the best opinions on eSports business it seems) it annoys me that I'd need to pay 10$ just to not be totally in the dark with respect to MLG Fall Champs. What's more, this whole tournament is basically glorified seeding of KeSPA players into an MLG. It just rubs me the wrong way. It's understandable that MLG wants KeSPA players at their event, but to basically guarantee them spots in the group stage is immensely unfair to everyone, including them.
You wouldn't be completely in the dark, I'm sure there will be more than enough spoilers online. Also, you could attend a spectating event in your area aka barcraft.
On September 27 2012 02:47 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
Always found DH to have poor competition too and remember the ones mana and thorzain won were some of the weakest competition I've seen in a major tournament ever. They get very few top and interesting koreans (besides MC) as well and just the ones on foreign teams. I've usually only watched DH towards the end, but saw some of valencia and that was a trainwreck day 1. No player ever shown, delays before games longer than what MLG has ever done. Was just a very poor show all around. I will always watch MLG championships, but DH is something I can live without.
That's an interesting point. Dreamhack doesn't have the strongest competition and MLG is miles ahead when it comes to the intensity of matches going on and more Koreans as well. Also I hate the typical "take notes mlg" I see on reddit as well. This does need to stop.
I almost feel like it's regional thing as well that comes out as hating on an American business. I could be wrong but I get that vibe from just reading on most of the comments about MLG.
On September 26 2012 07:30 TeeTS wrote: I expect the MvP to be a complete flop. PPV worked well for the Arenas, because you had the best players in the world competing in a serious tournament with high production value. That's the kind of product you are able to sell well. I really doubt that many people will buy a pass for this show event. The LineUp lacks really hot ESF korean players and noone expect those games to be played out too seriously. I wonder why they trashed the arena for this.. :o
they'll make more money. People will pay a lot to see Flash v. Scarlett for example.
Maybe but Scarlett isn't in it anymore either. So therefore all hope for them is dead and should just scrap the ppv idea forever.
On September 27 2012 02:47 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
Always found DH to have poor competition too and remember the ones mana and thorzain won were some of the weakest competition I've seen in a major tournament ever. They get very few top and interesting koreans (besides MC) as well and just the ones on foreign teams. I've usually only watched DH towards the end, but saw some of valencia and that was a trainwreck day 1. No player ever shown, delays before games longer than what MLG has ever done. Was just a very poor show all around. I will always watch MLG championships, but DH is something I can live without.
That's an interesting point. Dreamhack doesn't have the strongest competition and MLG is miles ahead when it comes to the intensity of matches going on and more Koreans as well. Also I hate the typical "take notes mlg" I see on reddit as well. This does need to stop.
I almost feel like it's regional thing as well that comes out as hating on an American business. I could be wrong but I get that vibe from just reading on most of the comments about MLG.
Not really a interesting point cause well, who's fault is it that the strongest competitors dont come to Dreamhack? You have to go to the teams and players themselves for that. Not Dreamhacks fault or problem.
A regional thing? Probably, but i think its also a community thing where Dreamhack blows MLG out of the water. Not to mention you dont hear a lot of crap around Dreamhack while MLG keeps trying to get attention with the most dumb ideas.
Why are we getting angry at a pass that is 10 dollars (or your regional equivalent)? People in here are acting like MLG is greedy cash whores who are charging a arm and a leg for this, just calm down
On September 27 2012 02:47 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
There is quite a difference between getting up early to watch whole day of starcraft tournament on Sunday with finals 5-7pm and staying up late on Monday night before you have to go to work.
I never watch MLG's last day because it's impossible for anyone who has a job or takes his school seriously to spend whole night watching a tournament that ends with luck 4-6am
On September 27 2012 04:50 IHaveArms wrote: Why are we getting angry at a pass that is 10 dollars (or your regional equivalent)? People in here are acting like MLG is greedy cash whores who are charging a arm and a leg for this, just calm down
It's the entitled generation. The level of discourse is pretty depressing these days. If you don't like paying for content, don't. To actually hate the organizers for attempting to figure out a sustainable business strategy is an incredibly childish and sheltered view of how the world works.
On September 26 2012 07:05 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Again with the Pay Per View. omfg.... Really I hope no one buys it.
But look at the player list! It's so tempting
Don't, we need to teach them fuckers a lil lesson. IDK why they're doing it again if last time they lost too many views. Fucking don't learn lessons.
They did make money $$$ period.
I dont know if you remember what Sundance said in a interview on ITG. He said hes ready to lose viewers, because he can make money from a less % of viewers who want to pay.
I'm gonna be buying this as my first PPV! Despite what everyone says I'm looking forward to it. Only Kespa players that i can watch because of time. Staying up till 6 for gsl just aint happening for me
On September 27 2012 03:19 Shiori wrote: Echoing TotalBiscuit (seriously, this guy has the best opinions on eSports business it seems) it annoys me that I'd need to pay 10$ just to not be totally in the dark with respect to MLG Fall Champs. What's more, this whole tournament is basically glorified seeding of KeSPA players into an MLG. It just rubs me the wrong way. It's understandable that MLG wants KeSPA players at their event, but to basically guarantee them spots in the group stage is immensely unfair to everyone, including them.
But MLG used to seed Gom Koreans right in group stage, when it was even more beneficial to be in groups. This is no more egregious than that.
i miss the times where we would have ingame wc3-tv and a radio-cast. guess what? it was live. it was in "HD". i could control the "camera" myself. control all the sounds.. i was able to watch game X and listen to the cast of game Y... and you would not even need good internet. i was able to chat ingame while watching. it was magic....
Lol @ kids crying about premium content. If you can't pay $10 to watch (what were going to be) amazing games, get off TL and get a job. Jesus Christ.
I'll be holding back on buying until this whole player situation gets sorted out. If all the original invites were playing, $10 price point is a no brainer for me.
On September 27 2012 02:47 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
Always found DH to have poor competition too and remember the ones mana and thorzain won were some of the weakest competition I've seen in a major tournament ever. They get very few top and interesting koreans (besides MC) as well and just the ones on foreign teams. I've usually only watched DH towards the end, but saw some of valencia and that was a trainwreck day 1. No player ever shown, delays before games longer than what MLG has ever done. Was just a very poor show all around. I will always watch MLG championships, but DH is something I can live without.
That's an interesting point. Dreamhack doesn't have the strongest competition and MLG is miles ahead when it comes to the intensity of matches going on and more Koreans as well. Also I hate the typical "take notes mlg" I see on reddit as well. This does need to stop.
I almost feel like it's regional thing as well that comes out as hating on an American business. I could be wrong but I get that vibe from just reading on most of the comments about MLG.
Not really a interesting point cause well, who's fault is it that the strongest competitors dont come to Dreamhack? You have to go to the teams and players themselves for that. Not Dreamhacks fault or problem.
A regional thing? Probably, but i think its also a community thing where Dreamhack blows MLG out of the water. Not to mention you dont hear a lot of crap around Dreamhack while MLG keeps trying to get attention with the most dumb ideas.
I don't understand dreamhack "blows mlg out of the water". I'm just as entertained from DH as I am from MLG. Yes they have nice framerate on the stream but that's really it besides the quirky cam shots every once in awhile. And what do you mean MLG keeps trying to "get attention."? It's a bushiness, of course they want to keep promoting.
On September 27 2012 06:22 Muffel wrote: i miss the times where we would have ingame wc3-tv and a radio-cast. guess what? it was live. it was in "HD". i could control the "camera" myself. control all the sounds.. i was able to watch game X and listen to the cast of game Y... and you would not even need good internet. i was able to chat ingame while watching. it was magic....
On September 26 2012 10:54 Mackus wrote: I'm implying that they're too money orientated, they're miles behind ASUS and Dreamhack and think they can charge for this stuff while the other alternatives are better and free. Not to mention the broadcasted games aren't even live, if TSL4 charged to watch there would be an absolute uproar but MLG are arrogant enough to think they're better.
They are better, they have better players, a relatively exclusive product and higher production values.
So I've worked for all 3 of these tournaments you've listed, each on more than one occasion, the whole "MLG is miles behind thing" is pretty much BS. MLG blows all of those tournaments out of the water in terms of options. Dreamhack has a 720p free stream, ok that's nice, MLG has 4-6 streams, player PoV, instant-replay VoDs and a far superior streaming setup. If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off. I hear all this talk of "better production" from people that don't know what production is. In my experience MLG has better production overall. Dreamhack has better venues and as such provides a superior live experience. It's hard to compare the Raleigh convention centre to the Ericsson Globe. MLG could definitely do with finding some more exciting venues, they're way behind on that, not even first in the US since IPL gets better venues for their gigs. Dreamhack and MLG both suffer from downtime issues, Dreamhack is currently ahead in that respect but it's not perfect, there are still plenty of crowd-shots and lots of music filler. Dreamhack gets to use copyright music, Sweden is wonderful and all that. MLG has analysis in the bag. Analysis desk plus the replay Analysis touch-screen is more professional and provides more information than the Dreamhack Analysis couch. MLG continues to get better players, Dreamhack doesn't get top-tier Koreans as often though makes up for it somewhat with European depth of talent. MLG production value in terms of audio quality tends to be superior and that's mostly because of how they do it. They keep the casters as far away from the PA as possible, minimizing the kind of nasty reverb we got in WCS EU. There tend to be less production fuckups as well, production coming through on the stream, non-functional mics, that stuff is way less common at MLG. Their "portable studio" setup is much more effective, not to mention looks significantly more professional. MLG equipment tends to be better too, I do rather dislike the gear Dreamhack uses, those bloody around the ear mics will slice ya flesh and they don't honestly sound that great either. Much prefer the Sennheiser gear MLG uses, it's more comfortable, more robust and better quality overall. There's a reason that stuff is used for sports-casts.
Quite frankly, the gap, assuming there is one and that's a matter of opinion, is way smaller than people make it out to be. MLG needs to get it's act together in terms of filling down-time. More interviews, more action replays, more analysis. Ideally they could get 2 more booths and do the GSL style of setting up while another match is going on, to provide a constant stream of matches. 60fps would be nice but not essential, it's a luxury and one I'll happily give up if it means 1080p and less of the artifacting we see on the Dreamhack stream (which knowing those guys will probably be cleared up by next tournament, they're super smart). Both are great tournaments and yet I see Dreamhack constantly praised and MLG constantly shit on. MLG is trying to run a business entirely on the basis of their tournament content, they have a lot of paid staff, a lot of expensive equipment and many costs to deal with. Dreamhack is not just eSports, has many volunteers and a number of advantages due to their position as a "cultural" event. Both are awesome and I'm sick to death of one being praised (to the point of ignoring some of it's mistakes and faults) and the other being constantly shit on at every turn. The bias exists on both TL and Reddit, it's enormous and obvious and quite frankly needs to stop. It's destructive, it serves no practical purpose and if we were to lose either MLG or Dreamhack it'd be a huge blow to the scene as it stands. Both deserve support.
you shouldn't have wasted your time responding to him. Some people will never chance their stance and aggressions regardless of reasoning. *cough* re.. nvm
On September 27 2012 02:47 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
Always found DH to have poor competition too and remember the ones mana and thorzain won were some of the weakest competition I've seen in a major tournament ever. They get very few top and interesting koreans (besides MC) as well and just the ones on foreign teams. I've usually only watched DH towards the end, but saw some of valencia and that was a trainwreck day 1. No player ever shown, delays before games longer than what MLG has ever done. Was just a very poor show all around. I will always watch MLG championships, but DH is something I can live without.
That's an interesting point. Dreamhack doesn't have the strongest competition and MLG is miles ahead when it comes to the intensity of matches going on and more Koreans as well. Also I hate the typical "take notes mlg" I see on reddit as well. This does need to stop.
I almost feel like it's regional thing as well that comes out as hating on an American business. I could be wrong but I get that vibe from just reading on most of the comments about MLG.
Not really a interesting point cause well, who's fault is it that the strongest competitors dont come to Dreamhack? You have to go to the teams and players themselves for that. Not Dreamhacks fault or problem.
A regional thing? Probably, but i think its also a community thing where Dreamhack blows MLG out of the water. Not to mention you dont hear a lot of crap around Dreamhack while MLG keeps trying to get attention with the most dumb ideas.
I don't understand dreamhack "blows mlg out of the water". I'm just as entertained from DH as I am from MLG. Yes they have nice framerate on the stream but that's really it besides the quirky cam shots every once in awhile. And what do you mean MLG keeps trying to "get attention."? It's a bushiness, of course they want to keep promoting.
Promoting your business is something else then doing stupid things (locking players out of a tournament for example, that one was brilliant), and yes Dreamhack blows MLG out of the water. Free HQ streams, community streams, instant vods and they release replays almost directly after the tournaments. Almost all things MLG doesn't have or do and those are facts, not opinions. The only thing MLG has is they pay for players to come to the tournament which results in the same top players over and over who destroy foreigners.
Im not talking about who is more entertaining or what ever cause everyone has different tastes and you cant have a decent discussions on that.
I wonder if there will be an option to just pay for the replays and download them. Im being serious. If im going to watch replays i would much rather watch them by myself in sc2 where im able to observe freely and study builds and games in a much better way.
On September 26 2012 15:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:If possible they need to get up to 60fps from 30, that's a nice experience, but since they do 1080p rather than Dreamhacks 720p they might be hard-pressed to pull that off.
I would rather have 720p in 60fps than 1080p in 30fps.
Its a bad idea to just focus on 1080p vs. 720p. Fps and bitrate has a much bigger influence on the quality of the steam compared to going form 720p to 1080p. Some tournaments also seems to tweak the color values of the game too much.
I get both mad and sad, when you see a tournament go into hype mode with "watch in full 1080p" and then you see this blocky crap because they had to choose a very low bitrate to be able to hit 1080p. For smooth streaming 720p is the way to go. IMHO.
On September 27 2012 16:45 Fjodorov wrote: I wonder if there will be an option to just pay for the replays and download them. Im being serious. If im going to watch replays i would much rather watch them by myself in sc2 where im able to observe freely and study builds and games in a much better way.
10 dollars might not be a lot, but I dislike the road this is taking. If people keep saying that 10 dollars is nothing for a HD stream, then before long we have it for most streams. MLG can do what they wish makes more business sense to them, but I will choose not to, but I think they should consider that bringing content to a bigger audience is better for the sport. If eSports hope to make any growth, then PPV is not the road, nor is people repeating that 10 dollars is not a lot, and happily pays for it.
Greed is what - in my eyes - ruined football(soccer)/boxing.
On September 27 2012 02:47 Canucklehead wrote: I agree with TB. I always found MLG to be better than DH, production wise and entertainment wise. DH is also on at horrible times for me, something which europeans always complain about for MLG in live threads, but you rarely see the same from NA posters when euro tourneys happen while they sleep.
Always found DH to have poor competition too and remember the ones mana and thorzain won were some of the weakest competition I've seen in a major tournament ever. They get very few top and interesting koreans (besides MC) as well and just the ones on foreign teams. I've usually only watched DH towards the end, but saw some of valencia and that was a trainwreck day 1. No player ever shown, delays before games longer than what MLG has ever done. Was just a very poor show all around. I will always watch MLG championships, but DH is something I can live without.
That's an interesting point. Dreamhack doesn't have the strongest competition and MLG is miles ahead when it comes to the intensity of matches going on and more Koreans as well. Also I hate the typical "take notes mlg" I see on reddit as well. This does need to stop.
I almost feel like it's regional thing as well that comes out as hating on an American business. I could be wrong but I get that vibe from just reading on most of the comments about MLG.
Not sure if what you claim is true, but if so, it at some point makes sense; a cultural thing. In Europe people are used to another model of doing things; socialistic approach, whereas in USA they are more accustomed to user payment-model, and as a result have lower taxes. Making people pay directly for using something requires a higher value to the product, and that is a natural effect that makes sense. While everyone wants high production value, but when it is a matter of choice, Europeans value other things greater.
For example DH didn't allow LoL, because they do not see it as a competitive eSport, and refused any money Riot offered, because everything is about eSport, and not getting rich. MLG uses a US model, where making money and providing high production value as money can buy, is their forte.
On September 28 2012 14:31 Freezd wrote: We should boycott PPV events. It never helps bring in new viewers at all and limits certain people from being able to watch sc2 content.
This is my point of view as well. If every SC2 event was PPV esports wouldn't last very long, because it's not really that big and somebody who has never been apart of esports isn't going to pay to figure out what it is or if its worth their time.
I really don't get it why this has to be PPV, but I guess it's how things are run in US, people are used to paying for content. I won't be paying for this, not because I can't afford it, but because I simply don't support having to pay for a stream, especially the one I can't preview. I did watch a russian stream of it yesterday and I have to admit, casted replays don't seem to be worth it, especially since players don't really seem to be able to manage their forces due to lag issues. Also they seemed to lose a replay while casting Naniwa v Jaedong jumping into next match when it was 1-1. What made me sad about this "MvP" tournament is actually the result page. Who has played against whom and detailed map wins view is probably the most intresting part I find in the results, especially in the events I haven't been able to follow. It's like this tournament is being held in dark ages, you have to be there to watch and you only get a small % of it and even after that there's no recaps of events that have taken place.
TotalBiscuit wrote on how much content MLG actually provides during the events, but the issue is it's happening simultaneously and people are just following one stream at a time of their favorite players/casters. It's the same as with this tournament, even though there's 100 hours of content I don't think I'll be able to see more then 5 hours of it, sure ten bucks isn't much but I'd rather tip a waitress with 20e then pay for something I believe should be free. Another thing that I couldn't ignore was how eager TotalBiscuit was to defend MLG, mentioning gear and headsets. I don't think a headset is any real issue at all, nothing a quick feedback wouldn't fix. Touchscreen analysis hasn't really brought anything new except for "You need to be this tall to cast" screencap, it looks extremely awkward every time they have to use it, and is nothing more then a commercial for the company producing the touchscreens. There's really no need to draw actual lines on a replay. I don't know why that post was so enfuriating but it really felt like it could've been summarized in three words, "pay up guys". Audience was mentioned too, not having people sit in 50 rows of foldable chairs does bring quite a bit more enthusiasm to the crowd as seen in most offline/live events.
Do you guys think Dreamhack, IPL, and other leagues are looking at MLG's PPV as the model of the future? Seriously? If we're being perfectly honest here, all MLG is doing is showing people what not to do. In retrospect, we WILL thank them. Whether you want to or not.
On September 26 2012 07:05 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Again with the Pay Per View. omfg.... Really I hope no one buys it.
But look at the player list! It's so tempting
Don't, we need to teach them fuckers a lil lesson. IDK why they're doing it again if last time they lost too many views. Fucking don't learn lessons.
........and this is why we cannot have nice things. I have a dream that someday our community grows up to understand that production costs money.
Unlikely, but by then we should have a new community that does. I guess everything could be free like other sports on cable tv.....wait a minute, that is what that "cable bill" has been. I've been paying for real sports all along.
On September 26 2012 07:05 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Again with the Pay Per View. omfg.... Really I hope no one buys it.
But look at the player list! It's so tempting
Don't, we need to teach them fuckers a lil lesson. IDK why they're doing it again if last time they lost too many views. Fucking don't learn lessons.
........and this is why we cannot have nice things. I have a dream that someday our community grows up to understand that production costs money.
Well it does and Dreamhack has showed the way they keep an incredible high production value while maintaining a good business. Pay per view with online content casted from replays is close to a rip off. I'm wondering if MLG is going to try to sell sand in sahara next
On September 26 2012 07:05 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Again with the Pay Per View. omfg.... Really I hope no one buys it.
But look at the player list! It's so tempting
Don't, we need to teach them fuckers a lil lesson. IDK why they're doing it again if last time they lost too many views. Fucking don't learn lessons.
........and this is why we cannot have nice things. I have a dream that someday our community grows up to understand that production costs money.
Well it does and Dreamhack has showed the way they keep an incredible high production value while maintaining a good business. Pay per view with online content casted from replays is close to a rip off. I'm wondering if MLG is going to try to sell sand in sahara next
The only problem I have with Dreamhack constantly being mentioned as a good model is are they actually making enough money to become sustainable? To my knowledge, there haven't been any numbers publicized from them about how successful each one of their tournaments are, while FXOBoss wrote a blog once stating that the majority of online/stream tournaments run huge losses.
On September 26 2012 07:05 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Again with the Pay Per View. omfg.... Really I hope no one buys it.
But look at the player list! It's so tempting
Don't, we need to teach them fuckers a lil lesson. IDK why they're doing it again if last time they lost too many views. Fucking don't learn lessons.
........and this is why we cannot have nice things. I have a dream that someday our community grows up to understand that production costs money.
Well it does and Dreamhack has showed the way they keep an incredible high production value while maintaining a good business. Pay per view with online content casted from replays is close to a rip off. I'm wondering if MLG is going to try to sell sand in sahara next
Imbu asks the right question about Dreamhack a few posts above mine. Until we know more about their finances (not that it's our business to know) or see them sustain in the long run we won't know if their model is any good (as a business).
But the bigger mystery for me is how PPV content - cast from replays OR live games - can be considered a ripoff. Don't we generally agree that casting games adds value? What about the value of gathering the players, producing graphics etc, enforcing fair games? Don't we generally pay money for things of value?
Btw, it is of course completely reasonable to say 'I don't want to pay for that' if you don't find those things worth the cost. But that's a different point.