The video is basically an audio podcast. There's some mostly irrelevant gameplay in the background. My writing skills leave a lot to be desired, so I thought I would express the vast majority of my rambling thoughts via video rather write them down. However I still have a lot to say, and there's a lot that I think the community would like to discuss as well.
Columbus 2011 I'm starting here because this event is extremely special to me, and probably to the rest of the community as well. This was the first MLG that brought in Korean players and it was a big deal at the time. Before this event the only time you got to see Korean players compete was in the GSL and nobody was quite sure what to expect from them.
The main reason the event is special to me is because I actually attended it, which gives me a very unique perspective on the current state of affairs for sc2. I drove along with a friend for 40 hours straight, taking in around 5000km of scenery to make it on time. We were both exhausted when we made it but we were ready to witness history. We decided to make the trip on a lunch break at work, and we had no idea what we were getting into. Worth every painful, sleepless second getting there though, an amazing trip.
For those of you that are not familar with the setup at MLG Columbus 2011 Starcraft 2 was not on the main stage at that time. Halo Reach was the #1 game in MLG for participation and viewship, with CoD being the second game. The previous MLG didn't even fill the open bracket registration for SC2. Things change, and they change extremely quickly.
Getting a seat for the SC2 games was nearly impossible, yet there was tons of seating readily available to watch Halo and you could get a front row seat for CoD. People started to come over and see what all the fuss was about as the crowd roared for each and every epic maneuver by the players on the main stage. Fans of the other games stopped watching Halo and CoD and started to ask questions about SC2 and it didn't take very long for them to "get it".
The event ended with SC2 on all three stages and the crowd chanting MMA over and over. The world of ESports was making itself known with that particular event drawing numbers that major sporting events would have been envious to get in terms of viewership. The sponsors and teams started to listen more and more to the idea that maybe, just maybe SC2 was the game to invest in. That's not to say that Esports was raking it in after that, or that sponsors were lining up to sign teams but people were starting to listen.
Next month at Anaheim. Slayers and Brue Frame Herrions!
The Start of 2012 The year 2012 was supposed to be the absolute biggest in SC2 history. This was our year. People like Day9 were making Forbes lists and prize pools were getting larger all over the place. Blizzard announced Blizzcon would be canceled to make room for an even bigger SC2 tournament. This was our year.
Dota2 was just the name of a game in Beta with some big promises and League of Legends had only just come out in Korea. The vast majority of SC2 fans looked at League of Legends and saw a game that had an immature stupid community that played an equally simple and easy to master game. I should know, I was one of them. I spent a lot of time telling my friends how stupid they were for playing that game, while I toiled away trying to maximise the efficiency of my builds in SC2.
Twitch.tv actually removed SC2 from it's frontpage, that's how big Starcraft was man. Twitch made a statement that it was unfair to other games to have SC2 easily accessible as a game on it's front page because it was so far ahead of everything else in terms of viewers.
This was our year man. Coca-Cola sponsorships were going to be coming into the big name teams anytime now. The players were going to be making tons of cash and prize pools were going to skyrocket. This year we'd see a ton of new players dominate as more and more talents were discovered and our infrastructure to support them kept getting better.
The Middle of 2012 Prize pools started to stagnate and the big sponsors weren't coming. Another game was starting to show promise as an esport, and their community was getting behind them. Day9 only had 8000 viewers when he streamed instead of the usual 20k. The builds players were using and struggling against were basically the same as they were 6 months ago.
You could watch a high level pro game of SC2 and know exactly how it was going to pan out after the players opened, with some rare exceptions (TvT excluded of course). 75% of the games played had no combat at all for the first 10 minutes of the game, and of those another large batch would end in a single fight instead of sustained action.
League of Legends was starting to garner bigger crowds than SC2 at events where both games were showcased. I didn't want to admit it at first, but the fans from League were drowning out fans of my beloved Starcraft 2. Cheers from the roam over would filter into the microphones of the SC2 audience.
Starcraft2 was appearing to peak and it was no longer growing. Twitch would show you SC2 again on their frontpage, and on some days it would still be the #1 watched game. There were very few big breakout players in either Korea or the North American scene. Especially when you compare it to how many people made a name for themselves in 2011.
The end of 2012 Slayers is no more, some of their players sticking with SC2 and a few swapping over to LoL. Twitch.tv has more people watching WoW than Starcraft 2 and LoL typically has 4x as many viewers as Starcraft 2 does.
HoTS has very little hype surrounding it, with the early passion subsiding considerable as Blizzard doesn't seem to listen to their communities wishes and most people now feeling defeated and relegated to just waiting for the release date so they can go pick it up and see how it is. Instead of people clamoring for a midnight release and wanting to preinstall it so they can play the entire week they took off work, it will probably get picked up on the way home from work for most people.
It's only October right now, but the new talent is just old talent from Brood War. Guess what, MVP's in another October GSL finals too. This is probably the first GSL finals that will pass me by without much interest, I'll probably watch the vods like a lot of people though.
What is going to happen in November or December? Does anybody here actually think the year 2013 is going to be our year with HoTS coming out then. Or is it too late, is SC2 going to stay stagnant and eventually fade?
The Crisis I gave you plenty of background on what's been going on with SC2. What can be done to change the games fate? Where do things have to go. More importantly does Blizzard have it in them to bring the game back to the forefront?
League of Legends is changing the entire game for Season 3, right after coming off one of the most successful years for any company in gaming period. Riot has already seen problems with the current meta-game, and aspects that are not exciting to play or watch are being changed. The game could be left as is and probably have another great year... but Riot is looking forward trying to make the experience of playing League as good as it possibly can be.
Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items. What you can do though is create the best interface in competitive gaming. You can help teams fund themselves by letting people basically give the team itself money from within the game itself. You provide in game logo's so teams can showoff their sponsors. You provide deep stat tracking, and a great replay system. You let people create clans and teams and you set the gold standard for how things should be done in game.
Name Change Coming Soon
The discussion At this point I want to open the floor to you guys. Do you think Starcraft 2 is heading in the right direction? Can Starcraft 2 even compete with the free to play model? Where will Starcraft 2 be in 5 years?
I know there's been a lot of doom and gloom lately, but I fucking love Starcraft 2. I have a ton of great memories from events, and games myself. I think Starcraft 2 has the potential to be the best game on the market by far for the competitive gamer, and the casual. The people talking about it with doom and gloom love the game man, we just want it to be the best it can, that's all.
Starcraft 2 best game in e-sports period. it's all in Blizzards court now, we can put as much pressure on them as possible but in the end it comes down to them. We just have to keep watching and giving our money to the tournements. In Blizzard we trust.
Edit: After reading it for the 10th time I finally understood what you were saying in that paragraph :D You should probably stick to SC2 and not compare stuff you have little knowledge of
Also about dota, they do change it. They change it a lot. It's not just "dota is dota". There were huge changes with the latest patch trying to make more heroes relevant and take down the heroes considered op.
On October 18 2012 14:09 MarCoon wrote: I have a few questions regarding the LoL and Dota2 paragraph. Can you elaborate what "the game" is?
Edit: It's one for now and depending on your answer there are more to come :o
Riot as a company is actively trying to change the current meta-game of AD Bruiser Top, AP Mid, Support/Gank Jungler, ADC and 0CS Support bot. They're taking a few months to change the in game items and how strong/gold/exp the jungle is to try and actively shake this up and promote a more fun/exciting playstyle.
On October 18 2012 14:15 boxman22 wrote: Also about dota, they do change it. They change it a lot. It's not just "dota is dota". There were huge changes with the latest patch trying to make more heroes relevant and take down the heroes considered op.
Dota2 is far from my area of expertise but they're not going to shake up much about the game itself. Changing and balancing hero's is one thing, but they won't get rid of camp stacking for example to promote more aggressive play.
didnt we just have the same thing come out of destiny earlier in the day? I mean the information is concerning and all, dont get me wrong... just poorly timed
On October 18 2012 14:09 MarCoon wrote: I have a few questions regarding the LoL and Dota2 paragraph. Can you elaborate what "the game" is?
Edit: It's one for now and depending on your answer there are more to come :o
Riot as a company is actively trying to change the current meta-game of AD Bruiser Top, AP Mid, Support/Gank Jungler, ADC and 0CS Support bot. They're taking a few months to change the in game items and how strong/gold/exp the jungle is to try and actively shake this up and promote a more fun/exciting playstyle.
Yeah I got what you meant after some time but you are wrong in saying Dota doesn't do that. They do it all the time. A LOT!
On October 18 2012 14:15 boxman22 wrote: Also about dota, they do change it. They change it a lot. It's not just "dota is dota". There were huge changes with the latest patch trying to make more heroes relevant and take down the heroes considered op.
I used to think SC2 is heading in the normal direction with expansions. Now I'm beginning to think that community is hell bend on killing it off even before HotS.
The hype at the beginning of 2012 was incredible, I was just so stocked for the upcoming year. Unfortunately, like you've already said in your post, it was just too lack luster. It depresses me to see the current state of SC2 and I was even thinking that the scene was in decline way before this week. I'd love to see SC2 succeed and I'm still supporting it, but we just need something new to put are name back at the top.
First off, we need KeSPA. Yeah, they're dumb asses but they knew how to do business and make E-sports grow. Secondly, Blizzard need to totally reconsider and abort their "3 expansion policy", and instead focus on quality. Heck, even delay HotS beta for more quality control & better advertising after that to make players interested in joining. Finally, we need English casters in Korean tournaments. GG.
I think Blizzard needs to stop listening to the community - regarding balance decisions - and I think the community needs to stop feeling so goddamned entitled.
i don`t understand this whole sky is falling talk lately and comparisons to LoL. Both are completely different. I don`t care if SC2 isn`t as popular as LoL, I will still play it regardless. Also the complaints about HoTS is funny because it is still in beta and most people I would bet haven`t even played it and just complain for the sake of complaining (we all know our community loves to do that). I think SC2 will be fine as long as the community stops overreacting and listening to bad players go on a rant.
We ask for one thing, then complain about it afterwards.
On October 18 2012 14:09 MarCoon wrote: I have a few questions regarding the LoL and Dota2 paragraph. Can you elaborate what "the game" is?
Edit: It's one for now and depending on your answer there are more to come :o
Riot as a company is actively trying to change the current meta-game of AD Bruiser Top, AP Mid, Support/Gank Jungler, ADC and 0CS Support bot. They're taking a few months to change the in game items and how strong/gold/exp the jungle is to try and actively shake this up and promote a more fun/exciting playstyle.
On October 18 2012 14:15 boxman22 wrote: Also about dota, they do change it. They change it a lot. It's not just "dota is dota". There were huge changes with the latest patch trying to make more heroes relevant and take down the heroes considered op.
Dota2 is far from my area of expertise but they're not going to shake up much about the game itself. Changing and balancing hero's is one thing, but they won't get rid of camp stacking for example to promote more aggressive play.
They did shake up the whole game,to encourage gank heavy style of game play by changing how the game rewards you for kills etc,like less than two weeks ago.. They also redesigned several skills for heroes, that change the way you might play them, or the teams you might pick them in. The patch notes only took only about 4 hours for pro's to discuss the surface of the changes of 80% of those.
sc2 is growing overall, despite lower single show viewer numbers. also, free-to-play multiplayer might work, but the only one who can really tell whether that would make business sense is blizzard. anyway, love your content filter, really hope to see some more!
I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items. What you can do though is create the best interface in competitive gaming. You can help teams fund themselves by letting people basically give the team itself money from within the game itself. You provide in game logo's so teams can showoff their sponsors. You provide deep stat tracking, and a great replay system. You let people create clans and teams and you set the gold standard for how things should be done in game.
You are aware Dota has been around for years longer than LOL right? I'm talking like 5-6 years or so longer.... LOL is a dota clone, not the other way around.
On October 18 2012 14:35 DeLoReAn wrote: I'll bet you eventually Valve will add new heroes to dota2 once the original dota heroes are ported over! How could they not??
Blizzard will take the easy way out, will add a few units, and you'll still see deathballs and probably even more annoying cheese all-ins. You won't see TvP mech, you'll just see the same TvP MMMVG with a bunch of widow mines. You'll still Zergs just fungaling everything as they rush to hive tech. There won't be a change in anything.
The sky is falling cause it really is. Blizzard is just like every other game company. They're not miracle workers. They're just a business trying to make money.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
this...
On October 18 2012 14:27 mango_destroyer wrote: I think SC2 will be fine as long as the community stops overreacting and listening to bad players go on a rant.
and this...
Also people need to stop bringing up Dota2 & LoL when talking about the survivability of sc2. They are completely different games, its like comparing tennis to football. If sc2 can't stand alongside Dota 2, LoL and other various games, then esports as a whole is failing... not just sc2.
I'm curious, how do people feel about adding a separate ladder for a BGH style map? Imagine if you just picked up SC2 without having played BW. The matchmaking feature would make you think the game is centered around ranked games. However if you recall, BW had a huge money map community, but SC2 has no emphasis anything besides ladder. Having a ladder for money maps might just be able to keep players playing the game, and if a money map player thinks he's hot shit then he can hop onto the 1v1 ladder. That's honestly how I got onto iCCup. I played BGH until I thought I was hot shit and graduated to 1v1 and from there to iCCup. Having the money map ladder would shift the focus off 1v1 for a lot of casual players which might increase the longevity of the game and ultimately maintain a higher competitive pool via player retention.
Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items. What you can do though is create the best interface in competitive gaming. You can help teams fund themselves by letting people basically give the team itself money from within the game itself. You provide in game logo's so teams can showoff their sponsors. You provide deep stat tracking, and a great replay system. You let people create clans and teams and you set the gold standard for how things should be done in game.
Its ironic that without blizzard dota 2 and LoL wouldnt even exist! Blizzard made it possible to give birth to these games and now they are killing blizzard haha. What blizzard considered "deep stat tracking" is removing winrates for people in wood league and they dont have the technology to create clan system and replay watching yet, aliens came and took the secret files on how to create these 9 years ago.
Basically the game is rubbish, the interface is rubbish, and the balance and gameplay needs a complete reworking over.
It is basically Browders worst acheivement.
It was fun, but WoL is still in Beta (patches pending, not final) and HotS shows more promise than WoL ever will. In my opinion HotS is more fun, has more unit variety, and even with broken stuff like the Widow mine, it is still more balanced than WoL has ever been.
If they add community features, and balance the heck out of the game, and that means some REAL unit reworking, accross the board, they the game has hope.
still going to be tough though with LoL and Dota2 paving the way now.
On October 18 2012 14:01 Filter wrote: Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items. What you can do though is create the best interface in competitive gaming. You can help teams fund themselves by letting people basically give the team itself money from within the game itself. You provide in game logo's so teams can showoff their sponsors. You provide deep stat tracking, and a great replay system. You let people create clans and teams and you set the gold standard for how things should be done in game.
Have you ever played dota? The last patch changed so many things its absurd, and pros haven't even had time to look into it yet. Valve and dota 2 will change the game, just like eul, guinsoo and icefrog have been for the last 8 years or so. That is their primary objective. Everything you stated is icing on the cake, and its very delicious icing. I don't know why you're talking about copying league. Guinsoo copied dota when he made LoL, its not the other way around... Its hard to take your post seriously when you post blatant misinformation.
How does the starcraft section of your post differ from the one destiny posted, or from the one anyone else posted? Starcraft 2s interface is worse than BWs by far. Many of their decisions dont make sense, like releasing the game without chat, and making chat look like facebook instead of nice channels we used to have. Its difficult to be social, so the only option is to play matchmaking. Team games just arent fun. Perhaps I don't like it at all anymore, but the best days of my life were playing 3v3 and 4v4 WC3, and many of my friends agree with me. That means the only answer is to play 1v1.
The problem with 1v1 is how in many matchups, the game is either an early allin, or a long macro game where NR 20 culminates into 1 engagement where 1 player screws up. his HTs/infestors/protoss get EMPed, his army gets stormed/fungaled, his vikings get caught off guard and die to stalkers, the mothership gets a good vortex and archon toilets infestor BL. The game then ends. You clicked to take an expo and didn't look at the minimap for 2 seconds and you lost the game. That's what many people in diamond/low masters have to deal with, and its painful. Ladder anxiety exists and it hurts the game.
Competitive starcraft isn't fun for many people, its stressful, and there isnt enough casual starcraft to entertain the masses
I wish people that aren't organizers/volunteers/companies would stop worrying about the growth and stability of other people's businesses. We don't work for them. Its their situation to deal with.
THe problem with your post is that you look at "lag-effects" like price pools and sponsors. You should look at viewer counts. Eventually they are all that matters, and I predicted this "crisis" 1½ year ago, when it was clear that viewer counts were topping at max 100k, and that they would begin to decline.
There is nothing we can do. It's all in the hands of blizzard to make a change to the business model.
On October 18 2012 15:43 ReachTheSky wrote: I wish people that aren't organizers/volunteers/companies would stop worrying about the growth and stability of other people's businesses. We don't work for them. Its their situation to deal with.
I think the concern is that if business isn't growing in Starcraft the money and sponsorship that's currently directed at Starcraft might be shifted out of the scene to bigger and better places. Obviously I'm biased but a lot of people see the success of LoL's season 2 event that just happened and can't help but feel their scene is bigger and more attractive to sponsors and players than SC's own scene.
If it's their situation to deal with (as you've said) and "they" decide that Starcraft isn't the next big thing to put money into, what happens then?
Alarmist hogwash. A couple of negative stories should not bring on this level of laughable fatalism. Going to go back to the game I love playing and watching now, adios.
Regardless of whether SC2 will survive or not the upcoming years, one thing I think we all agree on is that the User Interface Menu needs an overhaul. Clan support, sponsor support, Game streams, Tournament spectator capabilities, ACTUAL CHAT CHANNELS WITH MODS, hell, why this isn't even in yet makes no sense to me. How can anyone truly continue to support a game that went backwards in quality from their previous games, wc3 had clan support, why doesn't sc2?
On October 18 2012 15:43 ReachTheSky wrote: I wish people that aren't organizers/volunteers/companies would stop worrying about the growth and stability of other people's businesses. We don't work for them. Its their situation to deal with.
I think the concern is that if business isn't growing in Starcraft the money and sponsorship that's currently directed at Starcraft might be shifted out of the scene to bigger and better places. Obviously I'm biased but a lot of people see the success of LoL's season 2 event that just happened and can't help but feel their scene is bigger and more attractive to sponsors and players than SC's own scene.
If it's their situation to deal with (as you've said) and "they" decide that Starcraft isn't the next big thing to put money into, what happens then?
Then they decide to put money elsewhere obviously. It's their money, they can decide what to do with it.
Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
On October 18 2012 14:08 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: Starcraft 2 best game in e-sports period. it's all in Blizzards court now, we can put as much pressure on them as possible but in the end it comes down to them. We just have to keep watching and giving our money to the tournements. In Blizzard we trust.
Brrrr, wrong... I think this is the case, most of us no longer trust Blizzard... They have been walking the same path for a long time, and they seem to be too stubborn to change critical errors with the game.
Just about everyone agrees that one race feels kinda stable and the two others just feels broken. I loved watching SC2 for over a year, but after I got my Dota key 17'th May, I realised yesterday that the last time I logged into SC2 was May 16'th, this game is so much fun to play, a totally different level of fun compared to SC2 with its ladder anxiety, cheeses and bm (yes, its bm in dota also, but it getts punished by the report system).
The worst thing about everything... I am not even going to buy HotS...
Those train jumping threads are always annoying. The only reason to open another thread is, because they fear their post doesn't get enough attention.
I mean you have D3 as the perfect example recently. Huge patch incoming announced over month ... *game dies out slowly*. Stop creating needless anti hype, it actually affects some peoples behavior to see multiple "sc2 dies" threads and that really hurts the game.
No idea if Sc2 is heading in the right direction or not. But changing direction is no option as it would lead to only failure. That being said I think Sc2 rather aims for a long stay, and not being a blazing flame that poofs within the blink of an eye. Don't forget this is the rts genre ... its not for everyone.
Dota games also pull in MMO players who love PvP. And f2p MMOs don't give a fair pvp environment, so they prefer Dota style games for that purpose.
On October 18 2012 16:05 Particle wrote: Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
p.p.s Go IM-MVP!!
Only problem is that you are wrong. Less streams equals less people following the scene. The constant content of streams is actually sc2's biggest advantage.
I find it ironic that Starcraft 2 is being overtaken by a game in a genre that started off as a mod in Warcraft 3, for which Blizzard stop giving a crap about except to milk the lore for all its got to fuel their World of Warcraft.
I haven't been following the Starcraft scene much after moving to Dota 2, but I knew something was going seriously wrong the moment TL added Dota 2 to its website. You guys can believe anything you want, but the only reason TL added Dota 2 was to try and save SC2 from LoL.
3 points: -Starcraft will never be as popular as Dota, i guess primarily because Starcraft's learning curve is much steeper. I don't think you can change that without destroying the game. (actually the amount of easy to use units in the game seems to be an attempt to make it easier to learn, and is not good for the game) -You can either make it easier and fish in the mainstream market (and have a fast growing fanbase), or you can make it harder, which will lead to a more hardcore fanbase (probably growing slower). At the moment Starcraft 2 tries to be both, which is a big mistake, if you ask me. -Broodwar was hard hard hard as fuck, when you started playing it (i sucked in it, still the game was interesting), still everyone remembers it as the best RTS there ever was. It wasn't accessible, or easy to learn, or f2p. If you want a game with the competitive spirit of BW, you have to create it in the spirit of BW.
On October 18 2012 16:05 Particle wrote: Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
p.p.s Go IM-MVP!!
Only problem is that you are wrong. Less streams equals less people following the scene. The constant content of streams is actually sc2's biggest advantage.
Pretty sure he was referring to the dozens of SC2 tournaments, not the streams.
If the trend of doomsayers and "Crisis" threads continues then this will only become a self-fulfilling prophecy, the only reason StarCraft 2 will fail is because it was defeated by a horde of self-inflicted pessimism. Does a team disbanding and a bunch of silly threads really mean the end of RTS e-sports?
Yes SC2 might be going through a bad patch but haven't all sports industries gone through rough spots? SC2 can definitely recover because there are fans who are completely loyal to the type of gameplay that is so unique to starcraft,but it definitely won't if its fans keep bashing blizzard to do everything and nothing at the same time
On October 18 2012 14:47 6BiT wrote: Also people need to stop bringing up Dota2 & LoL when talking about the survivability of sc2. They are completely different games, its like comparing tennis to football. If sc2 can't stand alongside Dota 2, LoL and other various games, then esports as a whole is failing... not just sc2.
If you are talking about spectator and even player demographics, I'm pretty sure that Dota2, LoL and SC2 are drawing from the same group. Something like males, 15 to 25 years old. They're (Dota, LoL, SC) all basically the same thing in the grand scheme of things.
On October 18 2012 16:05 Particle wrote: Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
p.p.s Go IM-MVP!!
Nice post, never really thought about it, but you make some good points.
(Now there's no more Broodwar tourney's, we should just call Starcraft 2, Starcraft.)
Has anyone done a study as to why more people would watch LoL or similar games as opposed to a game like SC2? I just wonder because I find LoL incredibly boring to watch but find SC2 riveting. I was wondering if anyone had some data on what appeals to people about games like that, not just to play, but also to watch.
On October 18 2012 16:05 Particle wrote: Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
p.p.s Go IM-MVP!!
Nice post, never really thought about it, but you make some good points.
(Now there's no more Broodwar tourney's, we should just call Starcraft 2, Starcraft.)
Thank you sir. That thought of removing sequel annotations was one of my last. Quite surprised I had a positive feedback on that.
I am quite bored of this kind of thread. Who started this? Just stop already nothing interesting here. To be honest it seems like all people who made the threads about this are people who want that "crisis" to happen.
On October 18 2012 16:59 HonorZ wrote: Fortunately the soon to come end of the world will give us a quick death, allowing us not to witness the decay of our glorious SC2 civilization.
I haven't been keeping track of viewer numbers, sponsorships and price pools. It would be interesting to do some kind of survey of such figures, since they're sort of objective indicators for trends in popularity. Neither claiming the game is doomed because of queen range five nor pledging one will always love it is very helpful in judging the situation.
But what filter says resonates with my experience as a viewer and fan. I've lost a lot of my excitement for tournaments. When trying to pinpoint why, two things come to mind. First, there seem to be so many tourneys that each of them doesn't seem to matter much. Second, many games do seem to play out largely the same. So the gameplay itself has little surprises and the results don't matter. As a result, I'm losing interest.
When I compare my TSL3 and TSL4 viewing experience, the difference is huge. TSL3 was exciting, I was looking forward to the next matches and they often kept me at the edge of my seat. TSL4 seemed to suffer from the beginning from the fact that many top level players didn't even bother to try seriously to qualify. I didn't know what to make of the player pool. It seemed random, certainly not a selection of the world's best players. After being excited when it was first announced and I subscribed to TSL+, I ended up not ordering my free poster and not even watching the semis and finals because I was so underwhelmed and didn't care who'd win. That would have been inconceivable in TSL3.
As for the tournament scene, maybe it really would be a good thing to have some consolidation. A small number of big tournaments that matter and are mandatory for top players to attend if they want to be relevant. In conventional sports, football, basketball, whatever, viewers know what tourneys there are and what they mean. Not the case in SC2, the picture is convoluted and messy. Only the GSL and, to a lesser extent, the MLG really stand out. The NASL is nice, but it's more of a daily show than something that makes for a saturday night event, so to speak. Yes, I know the GSL airs daily too. But it's quite different because it has the best players and an accordingly high production value. And with the tight competition over there, they're very much closer to a situation where every single game does matter and therefore makes for an exciting show.
As for the gameplay becoming stale, I don't consider my understanding of the game to be deep enough to really judge why. I saw Bly taking down Huk in a TSL4 qualifier, among other things with a spine crawler rush. I know cheese is frowned upon, and for a good reason when it makes victories seem undeserved. But what I felt was symptomatic about that series of games was that Huk stubbornly went for a fast expand three times in a row when he knew that Bly was cheesing/rushing, and completely failed to react. It reminded me of my own ladder experiences where Protosses (and I'm not singling out Protosses, it's just an example) somehow feel entitled to not be disturbed for the first eight minutes to get their expansion up, so that when I do disturb them, they flame me as if I cheated. That was at a point I screwed around with stuff like spine crawler rushes and in-base proxy hatcheries for a couple of games. I didn't even do that to win, I improvised having no build or plan whatsoever. I did it simply because I got bored playing out the same narrative over and over. Surprisingly, I won more of those games than I should have because my opponents failed to react or even straight-out refused to react.
Bottom line: there is a dominant attitude that everything should be played by the book, which means, according to expectation. I see very little on-the-fly creativity, little need to adapt to unexpected scenarios, and little appreciation for a player's ability to do so. I'm not sure why that is. We probably don't want to go back to the cheese-fest tournaments of the first six months of SC2, but with games being too predictable, watching them becomes boring and pointless. Maybe it's just that the nuances that top players change in their planned out builds and ingame adaptations, while being highly intriguing for experts, are just too subtle for the average viewer to grasp. This would be a real dilemma we face with the idea of SC2 going mainstream and trying to appeal to a general, non-expert audience.
A bunch of major esports teams have dropped their DotA teams, which is a sign about issues with that game at the pro level.
LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo.
So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released.
On October 18 2012 14:08 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: Starcraft 2 best game in e-sports period. it's all in Blizzards court now, we can put as much pressure on them as possible but in the end it comes down to them. We just have to keep watching and giving our money to the tournements. In Blizzard we trust.
Brrrr, wrong... I think this is the case, most of us no longer trust Blizzard... They have been walking the same path for a long time, and they seem to be too stubborn to change critical errors with the game.
Just about everyone agrees that one race feels kinda stable and the two others just feels broken. I loved watching SC2 for over a year, but after I got my Dota key 17'th May, I realised yesterday that the last time I logged into SC2 was May 16'th, this game is so much fun to play, a totally different level of fun compared to SC2 with its ladder anxiety, cheeses and bm (yes, its bm in dota also, but it getts punished by the report system).
The worst thing about everything... I am not even going to buy HotS...
pretty much the same with me. The last time I actually played StarCraft 2 was before Diablo 3 was release. I started playing Starcraft 2 at release, and I played pretty much everyday so I don't consider myself to be a casual gamer. It just stagnated. More and more of the people on my friends list started disappearing until I was pretty much the only person left. I started playing other games to kill time until I found Dota 2. Been playing ever since.
Starcraft 2 lacks in so many areas it just isn't fun to play anymore. Its become way too frustrating because face it the shit starts getting too serious. People don't really play for fun anymore. They play to get a ladder ranking. While ladder is fun, and having a good ranking is nice to have, with no sense of community while you actually play the game, what's the point? I can't count how many times I raged because I lost a game from only 1 minor mistake or a bit of luck on my opponents side (hellion runby while your spine is rooting FTW) or losing because people abuse shit map design imbalances that your race can't do anything about.
It just isn't fun anymore. Its drama and disappointment.
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: A bunch of major esports teams have dropped their DotA teams, which is a sign about issues with that game at the pro level.
LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo.
So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released.
Good to see that some people still have the self control to stay calm and not panic at the first sign of problems. No game has ever had an e-sports scene that went without setbacks. LoL will have it's setbacks too. Dota 2 as well. There's going to be a point of oversaturation where people simply start to get tired of it or the game is simply getting bland and i don't think that's going to be different for any game. In fact i think it's rather impressive that sc2 went for so long without having this "winter" you speak of. Hots is going to be the best time possible for sc2 to reinvent itself and put itself on the market as what it is, the best RTS series around, both to play as well as to watch. Right now blizzard seems to be very intent on listening to the community, but right now i don't know if that is doing more right then it is doing wrong... Time will tell.
I'm sorry botu you spent whole 10 minutes wihtout accually tellign anything. you kept saying riot is making right changes, and blizz is makign wrong changes, please eleborate on these changes.
Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
p.p.s Go IM-MVP!!
QFT. Some good points here.
In addition to this, I'd like to point out the ever obvious and ever more annoying Korean vs. foreigner scene discrepancy. I was going to write some of this in the new MMA/Ryung announcement thread, but this seemed like a better place once my post was finished. I like how EG (and Liquid) is picking up players in order to become a real powerhouse in the SC2 scene, and I'm not bothered at all that players like HuK, IdrA and the other nonkoreans on the team might get less playtime. I used to be a huge IdrA fan back in the day, and to a degree I still am, but until he gets out of his slump he's totally off my radar.
Personally I've gotten to the point were I couldn't be bothered to spend time and effort following or watching internationally sub-par or bad players, even if that means that I support the non-koreans less (for the same reason I don't watch anything but top-level athletics or sports, I want to see the best). Some of them even have practice houses, great teammates, and time (particularly in EG), yet produce sub-par results, a lot of the time I just don't get why. I'm sick and tired of hearing about how X foreign player 'can' beat koreans but not consistently for X stupid reason. I'm genuinely worried that any current SC2 pro player below the top level will be in big trouble (and disappear completely from the international scene like many previous stars or hyped players already have) once the KeSPA players start reaching their best potential, and having only a handful of foreigners who can consistently beat koreans is bad enough already.
Having non-korean based pro teams like EG (with its resources, good recruitment, multiple korean players) gives an opportunity for the non-korean players of these teams to get a better practice environment (assuming they all practice together, which they damn well should be doing). What we need is an overall more hardcore and serious SC2 progaming establishment outside of Korea (or at the very least, establish foreigner practice houses to a larger extent in Korea). EG provides this (supposedly), as long as they deliver more consistently than now.
In particular the SC2 proscene in the U.S. needs a serious shapeup, with no players that can show consistent international results. I like cheering for underdogs, as do we all, but I don't want the mentality that non-Koreans are underdogs no matter what to continue for ever. How long will international SC2 last as a large and popular eSport if one country always dominates all the others? As much as I love watching Koreans play awesome StarCraft, I can't help but think that this will alienate a lot of viewers over time. It's big and popular in Korea, that's great, but it needs a proper footing outside Korea as well, with a solid base of good players to rival the Korean playerbase (which we so far DO NOT have, as far as results go).
I don't play much SC2, but I actively watch most big SC2 tournaments. Like Particle wrote, I don't care for the small weekly tournaments. For hardcore fans who have a lot of time, maybe it's nice to be able to watch small tournaments, to see new players appear, showing their potential, and develop, however, I don't have the time or interest for tournaments that don't matter. I want to see the best players fighting their hearts out for a championship or a win that matters. I don't think the scene is 'oversaturated' with viewing material, rather the smaller tournaments are for up and coming players, the bigger tournaments for the better players. What I do agree on is that there needs to be more hype, focus and prestige involved in the big tournaments that matter the most.
On October 18 2012 14:01 Filter wrote: Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items. What you can do though is create the best interface in competitive gaming.
... you clearly never follow the dota & dota 2 scene
LoL is easy to control playable on all pc and free + lot of comunity suport and listening, lan coming. Compare to SC2 sometimes in easy things like that is geniality they just doing things right and not only make money they want and try to give people what they want i hope blizz will change this way. Biggest hope is expansions and many big new changes that can lure people adn make game interesting but they must want do it (conservation is not a case now) and not only pump up something to suck money and go make next fail game like case of D3. I can give blizz milion ideas but who listen to me , us i just dont see them listen for now. I suggest to blizz hire 5 casual players 5 pro gamers and let them make ideas together from this just must come something good !
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
LoL was released 3 years ago, and their player numbers have done nothing but accelerate. Their last season tournament prize pool was 5 million dollars. SC2, on the other hand, has been out for 2 years and has seen fewer players every season on ladder. Tournament prize pools have remained stagnant since release.
DotA is like 10 years old and has been played on that same map the entire time, too. It's not an issue. It's not a fad.
The people making these threads are the ones who don't want SC2 to fail, and closing your eyes to the facts isn't going to make them disappear. SC2 is a great game, but the truth is that Blizzard got complacent with bnet2. As much as we've bitched about it here, it wasn't until recently that the community has finally woken up to the possibility that bnet's lacking features are really hurting its competitiveness with games like LoL and DotA2. It's not too late to correct this, but Blizzard doesn't seem like they're concerned about it at all. Hence, all these threads.
I definitely disagree with this overdramatic thread.
SC2 is fine. I'd say more than fine actually. It went really big after it's release and somehow it has barely decreased in popularity over time. Do you realise how incredibly rare that is for a game?? There are companys who would kill to create a game with the immense success of Starcraft II. We just recently got a tournament with a 100 000 concurrent viewers again! And that is in the time now where there is even more tournaments and stuff to follow (almost too much). I'd almost say that sc2 is ridiculously successful.
And exactly what big sponsors (that have a relevance in the computer market) aren't coming? Yeah, if you are disappointed that your favorite team isn't sponsored by Head & Shoulders or Jaguar and you exacpted the entire world to drop everything they held on to to watch SC2, then I can understand how you could possibly consider this to be a "crisis"
Sending the multiplayer component free to play is the best way to deal with things. You'll see SC2 jump 3 fold in popularity after that.
As a great fan of your work, Filter, I'd also like to remind you that World of Warcraft had multiplayer matches watched by 100,000 people or more at the same time as Starcraft BW was on. WoW PvP arena at its peak was more popular than LoL is right now by far, with half the streaming infrastructure that exists now and NO support from Blizzard whatsoever! WoW as an esport died nearly 4 years ago. BW kept going happily.
A game that is interesting to watch will always surpass a game that isn't. LoL is a tepid frame by frame WoW PvP match played out in slow motion. It's not got longevity.
I'd say more than fine actually. It went really big after it's release and somehow it has barely decreased in popularity over time.
Husky posted this 4 hours ago on Twitter:
Husky @HuskyStarcraft
StarCraft views are down 50-60% across the board on YouTube content. Subscribers are down same amount. Not just for me either.
And wasn't it TB who said on Real Talk that Starcraft 2 was suffering on Youtube? (Don't quote me on that)
Now this is Youtube and I don't keep up on how tournaments are doing viewer wise, but what Husky posted is pretty concerning. Hopefully come HoTS this will all be a thing of the past.
If Blizz cared, they would have already shown tons of support, but they didnt even begin to change UI features until this summer. And there are examples when actually BLizz cares. It is obvious. Alas, SC2 is not one of them.
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: A bunch of major esports teams have dropped their DotA teams, which is a sign about issues with that game at the pro level.
LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo.
So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released.
football is played on 1 map, so i guess that it is also a fad, right? Stay delusional.
On October 18 2012 14:20 pmp10 wrote: I used to think SC2 is heading in the normal direction with expansions. Now I'm beginning to think that community is hell bend on killing it off even before HotS.
Exactly my thoughts. HoTS is looking great, and Blizz HAS implemented many things that pros asked for. Community does not care. Community just whines and whines. The result: next year there will be SC2 crisis. You are making it, you are getting it.
On October 18 2012 14:24 Raven_zero300 wrote: Your post hits the problem dead on the head.
Too bad both of our posts will fall to the way side, as most of SC2's community that is left are 13 year old trolls.
Starcraft 2's community is not just 13 year old trolls you are over exaggerating quite a bit trying to make it sound worse than it is. There is a problem yes and something needs to be done but over exaggerating and making everything sound a lot worse isn't going to help. Just because things are kind of "down" at the moment doesn't mean they won't get better eventually.
A lot of people have been making comparisons with DotA / LoL to SC2.
The problem with that it's not SC2, it's the RTS genre. DotA and LoL are more casual friendly games and is easier to get into, easier to play, and has a lot more variety.
RTS genre is general is dying (well not dying but it's probably not going to be top 1 competitive game genre these days anymore, sadly). BW thrived because it had little competition (there wasn't Dota or LoL or MMOs back then).
Also about the topic of making SC2 easier to get into or so.
I'd argue that's nearly impossible (with competition that is) without changing the genre itself. Warcraft III is arguably easier to get into, more casual, and more fun to play casually than SC2 but yet it died off (to guess what, Dota) really just after 2 years or so after The Frozen Throne was released.
Also speaking Dota to Dota 2 - Funny thing is that while Dota 2 is basically Dota 1, it does get easier on some accounts similar to BW to SC2. For example, Couriers are way easier to use now (you don't have to move your screen to the shop to buy, the shop button makes it easy to buy without even looking at the shop; plus, you don't have to manually move or share control of couriers anymore in Dota 2).
This is akin to adding multiple building select in SC2 and adding auto mine in SC2 (to be fair, no big deal but Dota 2 is easier than Dota 1 due to the UI). Yep, the "should the interface be intentionally hard to use to raise the skill floor/ceiling?" argument.
(Hipster Nerd time - Back in my day, there were no couriers. In fact, back in my day, I was playing tower defense all day instead of Dota.)
On October 18 2012 14:35 DeLoReAn wrote: I'll bet you eventually Valve will add new heroes to dota2 once the original dota heroes are ported over! How could they not??
Ofc they will, that's what IceFrog does :o
Well they did add new heroes to Dota last patch (Arc Warden and the Wyvern). IceFrog regularly adds new heroes (and of course since Dota 2 is basically Dota 1 with better UI, graphics, and sound, then Dota 2 will get new heroes too).
Plus, the way Dota 2 releases new heroes is not actually based on when they were released in WC3 Dota.
For example, a ton of heroes like Magnus (just released last 2 weeks ago), Centaur(not released yet), Medusa(not released yet), etc all came before a lot of the heroes currently in Dota 2 (Templar Assassin, Rubick, Meepo etc).
(Those heroes I mentioned were from 5.0X dota, the latter heroes I mentioned were added or "readded" in 6.0x.)
I wonder if that's why HotS needs actually. HotS doesn't change much. Should HotS change a lot with SC2?
Sure they're trying to keep things the same but it seems SC2 (and RTS genre in general) stagnating.
The Frozen Throne did a lot for WC3 and really revitalized WC3 (okay to be fair, I don't know anything about competitive scene pre TFT WC3, all I did was play tower defense games and 4v4).
Honestly, SC2 needs to calm down with the money. Everything is getting out of hand. Yes players need to be paid well, but they are already paid well. We don't need huge players leaving their teams just for a bigger paycheck. We don't need everyone going everywhere in search of money. We need everywhere to focus on themselves and build their own communities. Korean doesn't own Starcraft anymore. ESL and DreamHack need to buffer themselves and become the pioneers for building Europe, moreso than they already are. It's cool when Koreans come to other countries to compete etc, but it doesn't help their skill, it just helps their pockets. European players need money in their pockets too. Let European players and teams develop massive team houses with good funding to sustain themselves completely and allow them to create a healthy and competetive enviornment. The same goes for NA, there seems to be a lot of money in NA, but none of it is going to the NA community. IGL, NASL, and MLG are all NA tournaments giving all of their money to Koreans/Europeans. Make less huge tournaments, spread the money out so that more players have more opportunities to play as well as more prize money in their pockets every month. Less huge tournaments, but bigger huge tournaments. Have one or two huge MLG's, and a whole ton of smaller ones. Have them in so many places that communities everywhere are benefited, and so many more people are able to participate. Expand the competition, and give us more players to watch prove themselves. Right now everyone is just focused on taking all of the money for themselves because everyone is giving them money for the worse of eSports. We don't need a massive amateur scene with everyone earning under $500 a month along with a very small amount of people making over $4000 a month. The small amount of people making $4000+ a month are also making $70,000 a year, whereas everyone else is making less than $6000 a year. Sorry, but games don't last if people can't play it. Make it a sport that all skilled players can play at a high level. So many skilled players don't even try because it's not realistic for them to play extremely well just to lose the one big tournament they play in in the first round vs Mvp, and thus make no money. Have so many more tournaments to the point where top players can't play in all of them, so that a much broader public ends up making the money and making careers more possible.
In other words, in terms of real economics, lower the lower class, make a huge middle class, and a small upper class. If eSports smarts up, the lower class (economically speaking, not skill-wise) will lessen dramatically, and the middle and upper classes will reap the rewards of a stable career and a stable future. More jobs will open up, more organizations will come into existance and actually be able to sustain themselves, and so many more people will have futures in eSports.
On October 18 2012 17:45 klniceajer wrote: Of course Dota 2 can't be changed .
What crack are you on anyway ?
And how the fuck does people thinks LoL is the whole new game to look out for ?
Dota still have their shrine in China with devotees who are still loyal .
It would be just the matter of time that LoL dies fast .
LOL is getting really big in China, riot is purchased by a Chinese company and has been growing bigger and bigger.
It won't die anytime soon, almost no chance at all.
Well when Dota 2 finishes its beta stage and it's open to all ... well .. I don't know, pick the original game with nice graphics or pick the cartoonish clone of it ? That will be the real test for LoL not the artificial SC2 vs LoL duel.
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
LoL was released 3 years ago, and their player numbers have done nothing but accelerate. Their last season tournament prize pool was 5 million dollars. SC2, on the other hand, has been out for 2 years and has seen fewer players every season on ladder. Tournament prize pools have remained stagnant since release.
DotA is like 10 years old and has been played on that same map the entire time, too. It's not an issue. It's not a fad.
We'll see what happens in a year when the effects of having 100+ different champions starts bringing diminishing returns, and when people finally realize that all the pro-level games are exactly the same.
DotA only stayed popular because they kept adding new heroes and flip-flopping the balance of the game, just to change things up.
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
football is played on 1 map, so i guess that it is also a fad, right? Stay delusional.
You're from Canada, so maybe you're talking about soccer or maybe you're talking about Gridiron Football. I don't know anything about soccer because I never have enjoyed playing or watching that sport, so if you're talking about soccer then your comment goes right over my head. But if you're talking about Gridiron football variants like American Football and its more audible-friendly Canadian Football, then you're dead wrong. Some stadiums are outdoors, and some are domes. Outdoor stadiums use grass, have precipitation and wind from weather, and have different acoustics than domes. Most domes use AstroTurf instead of grass, they don't have precipitation or wind, and they tend to have louder acoustics.
In the case of grass versus astro turf, that completely changes the way in which cleats interact with grass. This means a completely different feel to players as they run and turn on the field, as they sit in their stances, and as kickers do their thing.
In the case of rain/snow and wind, that makes an enormous difference in the game. Anybody with a decent arm can through the football in clear weather. It's a whole new game when you're trying to throw through thick snow, when steam is coming off of guys' heads as they take their helmets off on the sidelines.
In the case of acoustics, louder stadiums mean a home team advantage for their defense, since offensive plays are mostly called verbally and it's almost impossible to audible with a silent snap count.
So maybe you were talking about soccer, which I'm sure is also affected by the weather and temperature, but if you were talking about American Football or Candian Football...well, good luck with that.
Also, Protoss turtling on 2 bases or 3 bases for dozens of minutes, because the game is broken in that respect.
I am accustomed to thinking that the popularity of the other 2 big games, LoL and DotA, doesn't really matter for SC2. It's like comparing Tennis with Football. We need to develop our own community, our own game, and in time, if it so be, it will shine through delivering us back to the spotlight in the esports world. But for now, the place in the sun is given to others who've done a better job developing their game.
The main problem for the past 9 months has been the stagnant map pool. New maps please. Even goofy ones, so that the gameplay is forced to change. HotS release will get us a lot of interesting stuff, but eventually it will be the map pool that will decide how good our tournaments will be. I have a hunch that Blizzard is committing all of their resources to HotS right now, and neglecting the existing game. Otherwise we would have seen the game evolve more.
EDIT: A very encouraging aspect of the last 3 or so months is how clean the professional gameplay is becoming. Unforced errors are fast becoming extinct and we can expect to have, in not too long, a professional scene of players whose gameplay will look.. unfathomably good.
It's to do with a series of bad decisions by Blizzard: removing the cool micro features that people found, no chat channels, clan support, deathballs, etc.
It's all just leading to a bad game.
How did you manage to go backwards in your UI Blizzard?!
I am sad about this, but i have to agree with you. SC2 will die (or atleast decrease in popularity) soon but i don't think Blizzard can stop it now, they could have prevented it if they had tried it and started 1 year ago. I don't think they have the time to completly redesign SC2 with HotS (but we have to if SC2 should remain succesfull) because LoL gets ahead of Sc2 (and even Dota 2) every day a little bit more.
Blizzard basically needs to change their mindset about unit design. Currently, for a unit to see the light of day, blizzard asks the following questions:
1. Does it contribute something significant to the metagame? 2. Is it balanced?
What the requirements should be:
1. Does it contribute something significant to the metagame? 2. Is it fun to watch and play with? 3. Is it balanced?
In other words, units like the Marauder, Colossus, and Corruptor need to be remade entirely to be more in line with units like the Baneling, Hellion, and High Templar.
On October 18 2012 19:18 Atlan___ wrote: I am sad about this, but i have to agree with you. SC2 will die (or atleast decrease in popularity) soon but i don't think Blizzard can stop it now, they could have prevented it if they had tried it and started 1 year ago. I don't think they have the time to completly redesign SC2 with HotS (but we have to if SC2 should remain succesfull) because LoL gets ahead of Sc2 (and even Dota 2) every day a little bit more.
Starcraft 2 won't be dieing anytime soon, but yes, it will decrease in popularity. The game has problems that have been brought up time and time again and yet have gone unfixed. These problems do need to be fixed as other eSports games are adding or fixing what Starcraft 2 lacks, making those games more appealing and thus decreasing Starcraft 2s popularity.
Who are all those Ecnomics Professors who were lurking TL for this moment to step up and present their half cooked semi-knowledge about a market which isn't even one? Who are those people claiming to have the facts and numbers to say sponsors are backing off and that SC2 is "doomed"? Where were all those intelligent beings six month ago? Why is it that NOW simply ... after Destiny made a thread, step up and share their omni-knowledge in markets and businesses?
To all those guys, why is it that eSports is GAINING viewers and not losing them? Why is it that eSports gets more cultural accepted? Why is it that in general we gain more attention than we lose as a community? And why the hell do you guys keep telling that SC2 is going to die without backing it up with ANY facts?
On October 18 2012 19:32 bluQ wrote: Who are all those Ecnomics Professors who were lurking TL for this moment to step up and present their half cooked semi-knowledge about a market which isn't even one? Who are those people claiming to have the facts and numbers to say sponsors are backing off and that SC2 is "doomed"? Where were all those intelligent beings six month ago? Why is it that NOW simply ... after Destiny made a thread, step up and share their omni-knowledge in markets and businesses?
To all those guys, why is it that eSports is GAINING viewers and not losing them? Why is it that eSports gets more cultural accepted? Why is it that in general we gain more attention than we lose as a community? And why the hell do you guys keep telling that SC2 is going to die without backing it up with ANY facts?
So you do have the facts and numbers? Care to share them? I'm not being spiteful here, see my post one page back. I think it would be nice to have this discussion based on something more than a gut feeling, if only to end it because it's been shown that there's no need to have a discussion.
On October 18 2012 17:45 klniceajer wrote: Of course Dota 2 can't be changed .
What crack are you on anyway ?
And how the fuck does people thinks LoL is the whole new game to look out for ?
Dota still have their shrine in China with devotees who are still loyal .
It would be just the matter of time that LoL dies fast .
LOL is getting really big in China, riot is purchased by a Chinese company and has been growing bigger and bigger.
It won't die anytime soon, almost no chance at all.
Well when Dota 2 finishes its beta stage and it's open to all ... well .. I don't know, pick the original game with nice graphics or pick the cartoonish clone of it ? That will be the real test for LoL not the artificial SC2 vs LoL duel.
if you think Lol is a simple cartoonish clone of Dota you are dead wrong. I used to flame a lot about LoL before it even hit a big beta release, especially about the cartoon design as well as the free town portal spell.
However, after trying it for months, LoL is a lot more fun and different than what you would expect. No runes but buffs from neutrals. Scaling Spell damage with items. Customise Champion spells and runes (which opens up even more discussion on stats that old dota fans loved on forum). Invisible near bushes
Most of my friends who didn't play dota are addicted to LoL. whenever I meet some new Chinese friends and talk about the gaming habit, they don't ask "you play dota?" anymore, they ask if you play LoL and the elo nowadays.
The dota 2, successor of the original, might be attractive to old fans, but LoL is taking tonnes of old dota fans away as well as built up a whole new fan base (followed by a huge cosplay scene as well as fanart scenes across all asia, especially Korea. So it might appear that the dark theme of Dota is not as attractive as you would like)
Bottom line: there is a dominant attitude that everything should be played by the book, which means, according to expectation. I see very little on-the-fly creativity, little need to adapt to unexpected scenarios, and little appreciation for a player's ability to do so. I'm not sure why that is. We probably don't want to go back to the cheese-fest tournaments of the first six months of SC2, but with games being too predictable, watching them becomes boring and pointless. Maybe it's just that the nuances that top players change in their planned out builds and ingame adaptations, while being highly intriguing for experts, are just too subtle for the average viewer to grasp. This would be a real dilemma we face with the idea of SC2 going mainstream and trying to appeal to a general, non-expert audience.
Isn't that why everyone loves TLO? I think there is a big appreciation for on the fly creativity. I just think it doesn't win you tournaments. Right now I see the (pro) metagame as only providing a handful of possible ways to go, because they are really trying to "optimise" every build and to those ways the top pros know already a standard answer so there is no need for on the fly creativity.
My game knowledge is not deep enough to see if Starcraft just doesn't provide enough competitive ways for creativity (e.g. going for certain agression without losing too mutch eco so that it's only playable as an all-in) or that the scene has yet to discover new ways to play the game.
I hope and kinda believe the second one is true, seeing that MVP as a guy that mixes up styles maybe more than any other top player is the one most successful SC2 player.
But if it is the case that SC2 is completely explored now and we have everything just as it is, the game will become boring to watch when everyone can predict how the games are going to go.
Off course an expansion like HotS can break that up and give more possibilities what can only be good.
On the other hand Starcraft simply should have better UI, clan systems, LAN and all the other features. It cannot be that hard to implement and it would only help the longevity of Starcraft as a top ESport and the number one RTS.
Maybe a big new RTS game from the competition would help breaking this situation where Blizzard can rest on it's monopolist status.
[B]On October 18 2012 18:53 Goldfish wrote I'd argue that's nearly impossible (with competition that is) without changing the genre itself. Warcraft III is arguably easier to get into, more casual, and more fun to play casually than SC2 but yet it died off (to guess what, Dota) really just after 2 years or so after The Frozen Throne was released.
WarCraftIII casual scene or team game scene didn't die because of Dota, it died because Blizzard made huge HUGE stupid retarded arrogant mistake to change match-making system. Arranged team matching system was changed to a way alot of good player could no longer find any game even if you search for over 2~3hours. And I'm not exaggerating here WE WOULD SEARCH FOR A GAME FOR 2HOURS NONE-STOP AND OFTEN TIMES MIGHT NOT FIND A SINGLE GAME FOR THE DAY!!! solution to that? Well you need to either make a new account or, have one of your team mate loss abuse to lower your team's MMR(it was called ELL in war3) Offcourse you can say smurfing is a newbie bashing and loss abuse is an abuse, but without either of those we couldn't even play a game we loved on our own account we used for months or even years. Back in the war3, what alot of team gamers cared was icons you get for winning 1500per race and winning %(% was little annoying but still, it was what people cared) And if you have to smurf(make a new account everytime you play) It just kills motivation of casual players.
To wrap it up, Yes alot of my friends who were team game player had either switched to play Dota or quit. But not because Dota has taken over war3 casual team gaming in terms of fun. It was because Blizz completely ruined and killed war3 casual team game scene.
Honestly we all know what's happening right now, and we also know that it's all up to Blizzard to do what needs to be done. It's really up to them now.
I'm really happy to read this and to be honest Artosis has the right mentality. Let's just hope blizzard makes the best out of HOTS and the only thing we can do right now is wait.
I also don't think you can say HOTS isn't attracting attention. It's just poIntless to watch as long as its in such a state of flux, but once it's done, we will all be supa pumped.
Yeah, sc2 has stagnated. I'll give you that. I'm wondering if 2012 will end as epicly as 2012. Hopefully
As sad as it sounds, I think Blizzard missed the ship. They've let their wounds fester for 2 years; the infection has spread and inevitably the organism will die. SC2 won't die out before HOTS, there's just too many people invested at this point. KeSPA just switched and regardless of the doomsday prophecies there is money in the scene. There are people out there who have great ideas and tons of ambition who want to make this thing work. The very fact that this issue is being so heatedly discussed shows that people give a shit. The problem is Blizzard isn't among those people. Since day 1 they've turned a blind eye to the issues and adamantly did everything their way without compromise.
From the start they should have known there was a massive problem. Korea, the Mecca of Esports never bought into SC2. The densest population of fervent StarCraft supporters and the most robust Esports scene in the world wasn't on board. Right then and there Blizzard should have reevaluated their game plan. IMO SC2 failed the second it failed in Korea. It's been evident since the start that SC2 was lacking the allure that allowed BW to flourish and there's been no shortage of effort to convey this to Blizzard. However, the majority of us shrugged it off and told ourselves that Blizzard would come around. Surely they saw the error in their own creation and would take SOME steps to recreate the elements that made BW so great. Time continued to pass and SC2 seemed to be at a great place despite Blizzard's deafness. The community was really pushing for the game and we saw the explosion of the foreign scene propelled by the fans. Tons of people were tuning into streams and youtube broadcasts. Personalities like Day9 and Husky were making enough money to go full time and even got exposure in the mainstream media. Foreigners were in contention with Koreans and GSL was no longer the only tournament that attracted Korean pros. Blizzard even came out and declared their undying support, "WE LOVE ESPORTS." David Kim acknowledged possible imbalances in the game and design flaws that were being investigated. We got our first glimpse of HOTS and the community was mollified. Any problems with the game would surely be sorted out with HOTS if not sooner. I mean, SC1 didn't take off until BW, right? Esports was expanding in the West like no one could have envisioned. But it was all a facade.
Underneath all this external growth, the heart of the problem was never addressed. The biggest changes since have been the queen buff and the ghost nerf. Neither unit had ever been the focal point of the communities issues with the game. Changes were proposed and then quickly reverted. Other changes went through without any indication why and without PTR. Blizzard would say one thing and then seemingly act on an entirely different whim. One week they said every matchup was at 50% and the next week they were buffing and nerfing. And through all this, the inherent flaws that have been brought up time and time again since the get go were ignored. Numbers began to decline as people naturally lost interest in a game that had largely stagnated. Both playing and watching SC2 had become stale. If you've seen one PvZ, you've seen them all. Watching MMMGV collide with the Protoss deathball gets old surprisingly fast. The realization that Korea would be just as dominant in SC2 as BW began to sink in. Still, people kept the faith. This is BLIZZARD we are talking about, one of the GREATEST game developers of all time. They have put out countless classics and in many people's minds, have never released a bad title. Moreso, we all truly wanted SC2 to succeed and we still want it to succeed. The community rationalized that changes were coming. HOTS was around the corner and Blizzard would make it's big moves with it. Just like BW, HOTS would be the expansion that took a great game and turned it into a great ESPORT.
HOTS Closed BETA began and there was a new reason to watch SC2 again. It was finally here, the expansion that would reinvigorate SC2. Sure the Warhound looked like a fisher price toy. Sure no one believed range 22 could be for real. But that was all trivial, numbers were subject to change, we wanted to see the development on the game itself. How were these new units going to introduce the depth that SC2 needed to emulate BW? Blizzard had made grand claims about "breaking up the deathball" and reintroducing micro to the races that might lack for it and we were all eager to see their progress. Less than a week into the BETA it was evident that these problems were not addressed, in fact they seemed to be intensified. Terran, the one race that lacked a legitimate deathball suddenly had the most 1 dimensional 1-A unit in the game. A week into BETA that entire unit was removed without plans of replacing it. Over a year of development and you remove the Warhound in under a week of testing? How did Blizzard miss this... how was HOTS so far removed from what the community was expecting? Apathy towards their most vocal fans, those of us who take the time to raise a shitstorm here on TL, on Reddit or on the dreaded Blizzard forums.
I know this is long winded and I don't expect many to actually read through it. But I've logged countless hours into SC2, playing each race extensively and it's gotten to the point where I can barely log in. I was the player who played Random because I genuinely liked each race, I've been that way since BW and it's a characteristic that carries over into other games as well. SC is SC, whether you are T, P, or Z and it should be fun no matter what. SC2 stopped being that for me long ago. I switched to maining Terran because I dislike the way Zerg and Protoss are forced to play and I can barely watch SC2 anymore unless it's Korean TvT or TvZ. Am I whining? Yes. Am I right? Probably not. It's 7:00AM, I'm frazzled and I had time to kill since Code A started with a ZvZ and a PvP. If anyone took the time to read this wall of text, I hope you got something out of it.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
If you think that it's only about those few things you really are clueless.
On October 18 2012 20:07 SupLilSon wrote: As sad as it sounds, I think Blizzard missed the ship. They've let their wounds fester for 2 years; the infection has spread and inevitably the organism will die. SC2 won't die out before HOTS, there's just too many people invested at this point. KeSPA just switched and regardless of the doomsday prophecies there is money in the scene. There are people out there who have great ideas and tons of ambition who want to make this thing work. The very fact that this issue is being so heatedly discussed shows that people give a shit. The problem is Blizzard isn't among those people. Since day 1 they've turned a blind eye to the issues and adamantly did everything their way without compromise.
From the start they should have known there was a massive problem. Korea, the Mecca of Esports never bought into SC2. The densest population of fervent StarCraft supporters and the most robust Esports scene in the world wasn't on board. Right then and there Blizzard should have reevaluated their game plan. IMO SC2 failed the second it failed in Korea. It's been evident since the start that SC2 was lacking the allure that allowed BW to flourish and there's been no shortage of effort to convey this to Blizzard. However, the majority of us shrugged it off and told ourselves that Blizzard would come around. Surely they saw the error in their own creation and would take SOME steps to recreate the elements that made BW so great. Time continued to pass and SC2 seemed to be at a great place despite Blizzard's deafness. The community was really pushing for the game and we saw the explosion of the foreign scene propelled by the fans. Tons of people were tuning into streams and youtube broadcasts. Personalities like Day9 and Husky were making enough money to go full time and even got exposure in the mainstream media. Foreigners were in contention with Koreans and GSL was no longer the only tournament that attracted Korean pros. Blizzard even came out and declared their undying support, "WE LOVE ESPORTS." David Kim acknowledged possible imbalances in the game and design flaws that were being investigated. We got our first glimpse of HOTS and the community was mollified. Any problems with the game would surely be sorted out with HOTS if not sooner. I mean, SC1 didn't take off until BW, right? Esports was expanding in the West like no one could have envisioned. But it was all a facade.
Underneath all this external growth, the heart of the problem was never addressed. The biggest changes since have been the queen buff and the ghost nerf. Neither unit had ever been the focal point of the communities issues with the game. Changes were proposed and then quickly reverted. Other changes went through without any indication why and without PTR. Blizzard would say one thing and then seemingly act on an entirely different whim. One week they said every matchup was at 50% and the next week they were buffing and nerfing. And through all this, the inherent flaws that have been brought up time and time again since the get go were ignored. Numbers began to decline as people naturally lost interest in a game that had largely stagnated. Both playing and watching SC2 had become stale. If you've seen one PvZ, you've seen them all. Watching MMMGV collide with the Protoss deathball gets old surprisingly fast. The realization that Korea would be just as dominant in SC2 as BW began to sink in. Still, people kept the faith. This is BLIZZARD we are talking about, one of the GREATEST game developers of all time. They have put out countless classics and in many people's minds, have never released a bad title. Moreso, we all truly wanted SC2 to succeed and we still want it to succeed. The community rationalized that changes were coming. HOTS was around the corner and Blizzard would make it's big moves with it. Just like BW, HOTS would be the expansion that took a great game and turned it into a great ESPORT.
HOTS Closed BETA began and there was a new reason to watch SC2 again. It was finally here, the expansion that would reinvigorate SC2. Sure the Warhound looked like a fisher price toy. Sure no one believed range 22 could be for real. But that was all trivial, numbers were subject to change, we wanted to see the development on the game itself. How were these new units going to introduce the depth that SC2 needed to emulate BW? Blizzard had made grand claims about "breaking up the deathball" and reintroducing micro to the races that might lack for it and we were all eager to see their progress. Less than a week into the BETA it was evident that these problems were not addressed, in fact they seemed to be intensified. Terran, the one race that lacked a legitimate deathball suddenly had the most 1 dimensional 1-A unit in the game. A week into BETA that entire unit was removed without plans of replacing it. Over a year of development and you remove the Warhound in under a week of testing? How did Blizzard miss this... how was HOTS so far removed from what the community was expecting? Apathy towards their most vocal fans, those of us who take the time to raise a shitstorm here on TL, on Reddit or on the dreaded Blizzard forums.
I know this is long winded and I don't expect many to actually read through it. But I've logged countless hours into SC2, playing each race extensively and it's gotten to the point where I can barely log in. I was the player who played Random because I genuinely liked each race, I've been that way since BW and it's a characteristic that carries over into other games as well. SC is SC, whether you are T, P, or Z and it should be fun no matter what. SC2 stopped being that for me long ago. I switched to maining Terran because I dislike the way Zerg and Protoss are forced to play and I can barely watch SC2 anymore unless it's Korean TvT or TvZ. Am I whining? Yes. Am I right? Probably not. It's 7:00AM, I'm frazzled and I had time to kill since Code A started with a ZvZ and a PvP. If anyone took the time to read this wall of text, I hope you got something out of it.
This is a good and precise explanation of how i feel about the process of SC2. I could not have described this better myself. You should be sure someone from Blizzard reads that, since it's written in proper tone without directly insulting Blizzard all the time. I know people write aggressively because they are frustrated, but the tone should be like your post.
Anybody into retrogaming or grew up with the Atari2600 etc would know that in the early-mid 80s there was a massive videogame crash. Why? Because the market was oversaturated with tens of different kind of consoles, each one of poor quality and with utter trash games. So the public was just disinterested in videogaming and there was the so-called videogame crash of the 80s. Until Nintendo appeared with the NES/Famicom and provided top notch quality games and hardware for the time.
This is pretty much what is going on in the SC2. Oversaturation of tournaments, players, leagues. Great instability in team rosters, practice groups, practice schedules, teams shutting down here and there but also appearing for no apparent reason like mushrooms. So now we, the public, are just not interested, we dont buy the season tickets, we dont watch the streams. Same principle.
People read some threads, see that some pro players are behind it and immediately think that it is dying/dead/terrible/a crisis.
As said by CatZ and Sheth they love the game, and agree with Artosis's post on SC Dojo about the game itself. They just hate B.Net 2.0. And we are trying to get blizzard to change it to have all the features of B.Net 1.0. And trying to get blizzard to support eSports more. Which I understand.
I would love to make clan pages inside the game, have the old chat rooms back etcetc. And I agree Blizzard could do more for the scene, even though WCS has been (in my opinion) the best tournament this year, with incredible support from the ground up.
I am still looking forward to HotS, and I know that the game itself is in its infancy so has a lot more to come. And I would love the changes to Battle.net and to see more support in the scene. So we ask for it, send letters/emails asking nicely for them. This does not warrant all these posts on Reddit, and Teamliquid, and all the crying. Seriously guys.
On October 18 2012 20:07 SupLilSon wrote: As sad as it sounds, I think Blizzard missed the ship. They've let their wounds fester for 2 years; the infection has spread and inevitably the organism will die. SC2 won't die out before HOTS, there's just too many people invested at this point. KeSPA just switched and regardless of the doomsday prophecies there is money in the scene. There are people out there who have great ideas and tons of ambition who want to make this thing work. The very fact that this issue is being so heatedly discussed shows that people give a shit. The problem is Blizzard isn't among those people. Since day 1 they've turned a blind eye to the issues and adamantly did everything their way without compromise.
From the start they should have known there was a massive problem. Korea, the Mecca of Esports never bought into SC2. The densest population of fervent StarCraft supporters and the most robust Esports scene in the world wasn't on board. Right then and there Blizzard should have reevaluated their game plan. IMO SC2 failed the second it failed in Korea. It's been evident since the start that SC2 was lacking the allure that allowed BW to flourish and there's been no shortage of effort to convey this to Blizzard. However, the majority of us shrugged it off and told ourselves that Blizzard would come around. Surely they saw the error in their own creation and would take SOME steps to recreate the elements that made BW so great. Time continued to pass and SC2 seemed to be at a great place despite Blizzard's deafness. The community was really pushing for the game and we saw the explosion of the foreign scene propelled by the fans. Tons of people were tuning into streams and youtube broadcasts. Personalities like Day9 and Husky were making enough money to go full time and even got exposure in the mainstream media. Foreigners were in contention with Koreans and GSL was no longer the only tournament that attracted Korean pros. Blizzard even came out and declared their undying support, "WE LOVE ESPORTS." David Kim acknowledged possible imbalances in the game and design flaws that were being investigated. We got our first glimpse of HOTS and the community was mollified. Any problems with the game would surely be sorted out with HOTS if not sooner. I mean, SC1 didn't take off until BW, right? Esports was expanding in the West like no one could have envisioned. But it was all a facade.
Underneath all this external growth, the heart of the problem was never addressed. The biggest changes since have been the queen buff and the ghost nerf. Neither unit had ever been the focal point of the communities issues with the game. Changes were proposed and then quickly reverted. Other changes went through without any indication why and without PTR. Blizzard would say one thing and then seemingly act on an entirely different whim. One week they said every matchup was at 50% and the next week they were buffing and nerfing. And through all this, the inherent flaws that have been brought up time and time again since the get go were ignored. Numbers began to decline as people naturally lost interest in a game that had largely stagnated. Both playing and watching SC2 had become stale. If you've seen one PvZ, you've seen them all. Watching MMMGV collide with the Protoss deathball gets old surprisingly fast. The realization that Korea would be just as dominant in SC2 as BW began to sink in. Still, people kept the faith. This is BLIZZARD we are talking about, one of the GREATEST game developers of all time. They have put out countless classics and in many people's minds, have never released a bad title. Moreso, we all truly wanted SC2 to succeed and we still want it to succeed. The community rationalized that changes were coming. HOTS was around the corner and Blizzard would make it's big moves with it. Just like BW, HOTS would be the expansion that took a great game and turned it into a great ESPORT.
HOTS Closed BETA began and there was a new reason to watch SC2 again. It was finally here, the expansion that would reinvigorate SC2. Sure the Warhound looked like a fisher price toy. Sure no one believed range 22 could be for real. But that was all trivial, numbers were subject to change, we wanted to see the development on the game itself. How were these new units going to introduce the depth that SC2 needed to emulate BW? Blizzard had made grand claims about "breaking up the deathball" and reintroducing micro to the races that might lack for it and we were all eager to see their progress. Less than a week into the BETA it was evident that these problems were not addressed, in fact they seemed to be intensified. Terran, the one race that lacked a legitimate deathball suddenly had the most 1 dimensional 1-A unit in the game. A week into BETA that entire unit was removed without plans of replacing it. Over a year of development and you remove the Warhound in under a week of testing? How did Blizzard miss this... how was HOTS so far removed from what the community was expecting? Apathy towards their most vocal fans, those of us who take the time to raise a shitstorm here on TL, on Reddit or on the dreaded Blizzard forums.
I know this is long winded and I don't expect many to actually read through it. But I've logged countless hours into SC2, playing each race extensively and it's gotten to the point where I can barely log in. I was the player who played Random because I genuinely liked each race, I've been that way since BW and it's a characteristic that carries over into other games as well. SC is SC, whether you are T, P, or Z and it should be fun no matter what. SC2 stopped being that for me long ago. I switched to maining Terran because I dislike the way Zerg and Protoss are forced to play and I can barely watch SC2 anymore unless it's Korean TvT or TvZ. Am I whining? Yes. Am I right? Probably not. It's 7:00AM, I'm frazzled and I had time to kill since Code A started with a ZvZ and a PvP. If anyone took the time to read this wall of text, I hope you got something out of it.
This is a good and precise explanation of how i feel about the process of SC2. I could not have described this better myself. You should be sure someone from Blizzard reads that, since it's written in proper tone without directly insulting Blizzard all the time. I know people write aggressively because they are frustrated, but the tone should be like your post.
I totally agree with this. But I would also like to point out that back in the early Starcraft 1 days, it was a different environment and situation: a. A lot more people were into PC gaming. Mostly due to the fact that no console could even touch the capabilities of the PC at that time. [Voodoo 3dfx anyone? ] b. Online gaming had just started. Starcraft 1 was one of the first to go straight into a multiplayer experience. c. Battle.net so very user friendly it basically won the battle for Blizzard singlehandedly. You didn't have to use third-party programs to play multiplayer, which was groundbreaking and attracted a great deal of players.
The whole argument is completly stupid! Of course LoL has more viewers, because its the most casualfriendly game ever - even retarded 45yo Joe Smock can play LoL and have fun with it. LoL is not bigger, because the game is better. You say, SC2 needs to be harder and should not allow casuals to play Ladder etc.. LoL has probably a lower skill-ceiling than WoW! The only reason LoL is bigger and players switching to LoL is: Its F2P, its extremly casualfriendly and Riot is pushing the Scene with alot of $$. LoL itself is a terrible, terrible game compared to SC2.
The problem SC2 has compared to the terrible casualgame with 35 Mio. players is, that its just not fun to play competetive. I'm stuck in Plat since Season 2, because I play like 5 Games per season. It doesn't matter if I'm in Gold or Masters, because there is no Motivation to play the Game.
As a Viewer-Only eSport SC2 is still WAY better than these other shitty MOBAs. SC2 has ~100k+ Viewers with a ~2-5 Mio. Playerbase (probably lower)? And LoL has ~200-500k with a 35-40 Mio. Playerbase... SC2 is clearly the better game to watch, if you don't play. The whole argument is completly stupid Overall, SC2 is by far the superior game. But it needs improvements for Motivation and alot of UI-Changes.
StarCraft views are down 50-60% across the board on YouTube content. Subscribers are down same amount. Not just for me either.
And wasn't it TB who said on Real Talk that Starcraft 2 was suffering on Youtube? (Don't quote me on that)
Now this is Youtube and I don't keep up on how tournaments are doing viewer wise, but what Husky posted is pretty concerning. Hopefully come HoTS this will all be a thing of the past.
I don't think that the youtube decline matters as a whole. I mean does anyone really watch it anymore with all the massive stream content nowadays? I watched games on YT in the beginning but I don't have a need for that at all now, there are always live games to be seen. Hell, it's almost too much to watch. :p
I'd say more than fine actually. It went really big after it's release and somehow it has barely decreased in popularity over time.
Husky posted this 4 hours ago on Twitter:
Husky @HuskyStarcraft
StarCraft views are down 50-60% across the board on YouTube content. Subscribers are down same amount. Not just for me either.
And wasn't it TB who said on Real Talk that Starcraft 2 was suffering on Youtube? (Don't quote me on that)
Now this is Youtube and I don't keep up on how tournaments are doing viewer wise, but what Husky posted is pretty concerning. Hopefully come HoTS this will all be a thing of the past.
I don't think that the youtube decline matters as a whole. I mean does anyone really watch it anymore with all the massive stream content nowadays? I watched games on YT in the beginning but I don't have a need for that at all now, there are always live games to be seen. Hell, it's almost too much to watch. :p
Errr...
Husky is making money from Starcraft. Of course he would say that everything is fine. Any company says "everything is fine" at any time. It's just standard business practice.
Stop talk about DotA if you don't know anything about it... it's an insult to compare DotA and LoL like that. DotA is still heavily changing, and way more mature and diversified in metagame than LoL, and it's a good thing that they try to change this in LoL but don't insult DotA as he will never change.
On October 18 2012 17:22 ineversmile wrote: A bunch of major esports teams have dropped their DotA teams, which is a sign about issues with that game at the pro level.
LoL is going strong in terms of popularity, but that game is still 99% about snowballing and they only ever play on one map. It's a fad.
Right now, HotS is in a very experimental stage of the beta, and WoL doesn't feel like a complete game without some new changes and additional units--so Starcraft is somewhat in limbo.
So, to me, this isn't a crisis. It's a winter. Give it some time, and the seasons will change. I expect a flourishing spring to come after the expansion is released.
football is played on 1 map, so i guess that it is also a fad, right? Stay delusional.
Yeah, totally boring that map. They should introduce destructible rocks in front of the goals and make it 4 spawn positions.
On October 18 2012 20:30 Psychobabas wrote: Anybody into retrogaming or grew up with the Atari2600 etc would know that in the early-mid 80s there was a massive videogame crash. Why? Because the market was oversaturated with tens of different kind of consoles, each one of poor quality and with utter trash games. So the public was just disinterested in videogaming and there was the so-called videogame crash of the 80s. Until Nintendo appeared with the NES/Famicom and provided top notch quality games and hardware for the time.
This is pretty much what is going on in the SC2. Oversaturation of tournaments, players, leagues. Great instability in team rosters, practice groups, practice schedules, teams shutting down here and there but also appearing for no apparent reason like mushrooms. So now we, the public, are just not interested, we dont buy the season tickets, we dont watch the streams. Same principle.
We basically need a "NES" for the SC2 scene.
Speak for yourself dude. A lot of people are interested in tournaments still. Of course it's natural to lose interest over time and some people will move on but with the big profile release of HotS SC2 is going to attract new audience to replace them. The video game crash comparison is pretty off. There is no such oversaturation. The video game industry is actually moving into the complete opposite direction with huge blockbuster titles. They release fewer games but everything rides on the success of those titles -> quality games.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
SC2 hasn't grown in a year. The problem was apparent for a long time. It is just that now it is beeing discussed more.
On October 18 2012 20:30 Psychobabas wrote: Anybody into retrogaming or grew up with the Atari2600 etc would know that in the early-mid 80s there was a massive videogame crash. Why? Because the market was oversaturated with tens of different kind of consoles, each one of poor quality and with utter trash games. So the public was just disinterested in videogaming and there was the so-called videogame crash of the 80s. Until Nintendo appeared with the NES/Famicom and provided top notch quality games and hardware for the time.
This is pretty much what is going on in the SC2. Oversaturation of tournaments, players, leagues. Great instability in team rosters, practice groups, practice schedules, teams shutting down here and there but also appearing for no apparent reason like mushrooms. So now we, the public, are just not interested, we dont buy the season tickets, we dont watch the streams. Same principle.
We basically need a "NES" for the SC2 scene.
Speak for yourself dude. A lot of people are interested in tournaments still. Of course it's natural to lose interest over time and some people will move on but with the big profile release of HotS SC2 is going to attract new audience to replace them. The video game crash comparison is pretty off. There is no such oversaturation. The video game industry is actually moving into the complete opposite direction with huge blockbuster titles. They release fewer games but everything rides on the success of those titles -> quality games.
You misunderstand me. I compared only the SC2 situation with the game crisis of the 80s, not the whole present videogame industry which is of course a multibillion industry with insane growth.
On October 18 2012 20:07 SupLilSon wrote: As sad as it sounds, I think Blizzard missed the ship. They've let their wounds fester for 2 years; the infection has spread and inevitably the organism will die. SC2 won't die out before HOTS, there's just too many people invested at this point. KeSPA just switched and regardless of the doomsday prophecies there is money in the scene. There are people out there who have great ideas and tons of ambition who want to make this thing work. The very fact that this issue is being so heatedly discussed shows that people give a shit. The problem is Blizzard isn't among those people. Since day 1 they've turned a blind eye to the issues and adamantly did everything their way without compromise.
From the start they should have known there was a massive problem. Korea, the Mecca of Esports never bought into SC2. The densest population of fervent StarCraft supporters and the most robust Esports scene in the world wasn't on board. Right then and there Blizzard should have reevaluated their game plan. IMO SC2 failed the second it failed in Korea. It's been evident since the start that SC2 was lacking the allure that allowed BW to flourish and there's been no shortage of effort to convey this to Blizzard. However, the majority of us shrugged it off and told ourselves that Blizzard would come around. Surely they saw the error in their own creation and would take SOME steps to recreate the elements that made BW so great. Time continued to pass and SC2 seemed to be at a great place despite Blizzard's deafness. The community was really pushing for the game and we saw the explosion of the foreign scene propelled by the fans. Tons of people were tuning into streams and youtube broadcasts. Personalities like Day9 and Husky were making enough money to go full time and even got exposure in the mainstream media. Foreigners were in contention with Koreans and GSL was no longer the only tournament that attracted Korean pros. Blizzard even came out and declared their undying support, "WE LOVE ESPORTS." David Kim acknowledged possible imbalances in the game and design flaws that were being investigated. We got our first glimpse of HOTS and the community was mollified. Any problems with the game would surely be sorted out with HOTS if not sooner. I mean, SC1 didn't take off until BW, right? Esports was expanding in the West like no one could have envisioned. But it was all a facade.
Underneath all this external growth, the heart of the problem was never addressed. The biggest changes since have been the queen buff and the ghost nerf. Neither unit had ever been the focal point of the communities issues with the game. Changes were proposed and then quickly reverted. Other changes went through without any indication why and without PTR. Blizzard would say one thing and then seemingly act on an entirely different whim. One week they said every matchup was at 50% and the next week they were buffing and nerfing. And through all this, the inherent flaws that have been brought up time and time again since the get go were ignored. Numbers began to decline as people naturally lost interest in a game that had largely stagnated. Both playing and watching SC2 had become stale. If you've seen one PvZ, you've seen them all. Watching MMMGV collide with the Protoss deathball gets old surprisingly fast. The realization that Korea would be just as dominant in SC2 as BW began to sink in. Still, people kept the faith. This is BLIZZARD we are talking about, one of the GREATEST game developers of all time. They have put out countless classics and in many people's minds, have never released a bad title. Moreso, we all truly wanted SC2 to succeed and we still want it to succeed. The community rationalized that changes were coming. HOTS was around the corner and Blizzard would make it's big moves with it. Just like BW, HOTS would be the expansion that took a great game and turned it into a great ESPORT.
HOTS Closed BETA began and there was a new reason to watch SC2 again. It was finally here, the expansion that would reinvigorate SC2. Sure the Warhound looked like a fisher price toy. Sure no one believed range 22 could be for real. But that was all trivial, numbers were subject to change, we wanted to see the development on the game itself. How were these new units going to introduce the depth that SC2 needed to emulate BW? Blizzard had made grand claims about "breaking up the deathball" and reintroducing micro to the races that might lack for it and we were all eager to see their progress. Less than a week into the BETA it was evident that these problems were not addressed, in fact they seemed to be intensified. Terran, the one race that lacked a legitimate deathball suddenly had the most 1 dimensional 1-A unit in the game. A week into BETA that entire unit was removed without plans of replacing it. Over a year of development and you remove the Warhound in under a week of testing? How did Blizzard miss this... how was HOTS so far removed from what the community was expecting? Apathy towards their most vocal fans, those of us who take the time to raise a shitstorm here on TL, on Reddit or on the dreaded Blizzard forums.
I know this is long winded and I don't expect many to actually read through it. But I've logged countless hours into SC2, playing each race extensively and it's gotten to the point where I can barely log in. I was the player who played Random because I genuinely liked each race, I've been that way since BW and it's a characteristic that carries over into other games as well. SC is SC, whether you are T, P, or Z and it should be fun no matter what. SC2 stopped being that for me long ago. I switched to maining Terran because I dislike the way Zerg and Protoss are forced to play and I can barely watch SC2 anymore unless it's Korean TvT or TvZ. Am I whining? Yes. Am I right? Probably not. It's 7:00AM, I'm frazzled and I had time to kill since Code A started with a ZvZ and a PvP. If anyone took the time to read this wall of text, I hope you got something out of it.
This is a good and precise explanation of how i feel about the process of SC2. I could not have described this better myself. You should be sure someone from Blizzard reads that, since it's written in proper tone without directly insulting Blizzard all the time. I know people write aggressively because they are frustrated, but the tone should be like your post.
I totally agree with this. But I would also like to point out that back in the early Starcraft 1 days, it was a different environment and situation: a. A lot more people were into PC gaming. Mostly due to the fact that no console could even touch the capabilities of the PC at that time. [Voodoo 3dfx anyone? ] b. Online gaming had just started. Starcraft 1 was one of the first to go straight into a multiplayer experience. c. Battle.net so very user friendly it basically won the battle for Blizzard singlehandedly. You didn't have to use third-party programs to play multiplayer, which was groundbreaking and attracted a great deal of players.
That is true PC gaming was way ahead consoles on that kind of games. Gameplay wise the consoles where very strong at that time. I played Starcraft with my friends over LAN since I did not have internet until many years later. I did not know about it being an esport until i started to hear about SC2. I just played SC because the game had so much stuff to explore which made it fun.
Regarding point c. I totally agree. They cannot get away with making it decent user friendly. They need to overhaul it. I had one of my best experiences in SC2 yesterday when playing "arcade" games with my friends. They had taken time to search for some good games, since they don't like to play ladder. Blizzard should focus more on the social aspect of the game, because most people play games to have fun with friends. They should make the environment inside of SC 2 to feel like that. Not super competitive as first impression.
On October 18 2012 20:30 Psychobabas wrote: Anybody into retrogaming or grew up with the Atari2600 etc would know that in the early-mid 80s there was a massive videogame crash. Why? Because the market was oversaturated with tens of different kind of consoles, each one of poor quality and with utter trash games. So the public was just disinterested in videogaming and there was the so-called videogame crash of the 80s. Until Nintendo appeared with the NES/Famicom and provided top notch quality games and hardware for the time.
This is pretty much what is going on in the SC2. Oversaturation of tournaments, players, leagues. Great instability in team rosters, practice groups, practice schedules, teams shutting down here and there but also appearing for no apparent reason like mushrooms. So now we, the public, are just not interested, we dont buy the season tickets, we dont watch the streams. Same principle.
We basically need a "NES" for the SC2 scene.
Speak for yourself dude. A lot of people are interested in tournaments still. Of course it's natural to lose interest over time and some people will move on but with the big profile release of HotS SC2 is going to attract new audience to replace them. The video game crash comparison is pretty off. There is no such oversaturation. The video game industry is actually moving into the complete opposite direction with huge blockbuster titles. They release fewer games but everything rides on the success of those titles -> quality games.
You misunderstand me. I compared only the SC2 situation with the game crisis of the 80s, not the whole present videogame industry which is of course a multibillion industry with insane growth.
Ok sorry I guess I wandered a bit off there myself but still I do not agree with you. I don't think there is oversaturation with SC2 content and the stuff they put out is pretty high quality. I myself watch around 50-70% of all tournaments and I have a life also. I guess if you count brief glances I watch like 90% and haven't lost interest.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
SC2 hasn't grown in a year. The problem was apparent for a long time. It is just that now it is beeing discussed more.
This exactly, it has been in constant decline since Summer at the latest, probably even before then. Every time I feel like watching a stream I mouse over all the streams on TL to see how many viewers are on each and I've observed for quite some time now the numbers going down. Most noticeable was Day9's stream going from something like 20k avg viewers all the way down to 4000. Also Stephano from 12k to about 7k, and I can't think of a single stream whose viewership has not decreased over the past year. The last half of 2011 up till April 2012 (when Stephano peaked at 22k viewers) were SC2's peak IMO.
For me at least as of late the game has grown dull and boring and something needs to be done to reinvigorate it. That being said, for a while it was the best game I've ever played and watched in my life. Have no doubt , friends, it is quite possible to revive this game and even has the potential for attracting millions of viewers far down the road, but major changes are needed.
Slayers disband and we got crissis in sc 2 ? lol , its sounds like fan boy post Other thing is new expansions for WoW always have big hype at begining , its normal , 2-3 months from now it will be less numbers for WoW. Stop compared LoL to Sc2 .. how many more people will do that.. ? LoL is a MOBA game , and moba gendre is now HUGE ! , sc2 is rts , and its not free like LoL
More idiotic sensationalism. None of this drama existed prior to Destiny's wall of text. It's sad that he can cause so much of a stir within the community whenever he pleases despite his overall unimportance. To make matters worse we have people like this coming out of the woodwork making videos in an attempt to capitalize on it..
StarCraft is alive and well. If anything the growth has stagnated but is still at a sustainable and enjoyable level. SC2 doesn't need to compete with LoL/Dota to be successful. Just shut up and enjoy the games, if not go watch LoL.
OP is probably even more accurate to the situation than Destiny's post yesterday.
I agree 100% and have been struggling to put the same thing into words myself.
SC doesn't have a problem now, they have a problem moving forward. They have had these underlying issues for quite a while now, but the game is still quite good.
The thing is, when Blizzard seems to be worried about all the wrong things with their beta, it is not very reassuring that they know how to keep this game interesting.
We really need a redesign from the ground up. These core issues need to be addressed.
Blizzard, the gamers are watching and deciding which game to play. It's your move.
On October 18 2012 21:47 Voreau wrote: More idiotic sensationalism. None of this drama existed prior to Destiny's wall of text. It's sad that he can cause so much of a stir within the community whenever he pleases despite his overall unimportance. To make matters worse we have people like this coming out of the woodwork making videos in an attempt to capitalize on it..
StarCraft is alive and well. If anything the growth has stagnated but is still at a sustainable and enjoyable level. SC2 doesn't need to compete with LoL/Dota to be successful. Just shut up and enjoy the games, if not go watch LoL.
This is the exact attitude that Blizzard has and the exact reason we are having this "drama". People like you say go watch LoL if you don't like SC2. Guess what? That's exactly what people are doing and they aren't coming back.. And if you've listened to anyone actually in the business lately or opened your eyes to what's going on in the scene you'd know that it's not sustainable.
"Blizzard doesn't seem to listen to their communities wishes and most people now feeling defeated and relegated to just waiting for the release date so they can go pick it up and see how it is."
This is the whole reason for this crisis. An example is the Name change, what would a simple free name change cost blizz?
Sorry to all the naysayers, but this has been building up in the community basically since release, it didn't start with Destiny's post.
Hell, I made a post last week about the same subject that quickly got dismissed/ignored. MANY people feel this way about the game. Not everyone needs to agree. As long as the problems exist and enough people are talking about them, the community is doing it's part for the future of the game. The problem has been that Blizzard is sitting in the corner, fingers in ears, saying "LALALALALALA" while they work on turning the Widow Mine into the only unit Terran ever needs to build, ever.
We cry because we love this game, and Blizzard seems hellbent on jumping the shark with StarCraft.
I'd also note that all this horrible BNet2.0 has not come because of SC2 but because they wanted to integrate it with Diablo 3 and WoW. Personally I couldn't give a donkeys balls whether I can talk to the few people I still give a rats arse about in WoW that still play that shitty game. I have Skype for that.
BNet 2.0 needs to go back to being about Starcraft 2.
You have to realize that Team Liquid is a community mostly comprised of very hardcore players or viewers. It doesn't typically represent how "good" a game does in terms of popularity or success. In fact, most of the changes in the game have been to make it better for the extreme hardcore gamer (5+ hours per day) rather than to make the game better and more popular.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with the viewpoint that making the game more popular would make it a worse game overall. It just doesn't allow for innovation and creativity in the game design, so of course it's going to get stale for a lot of people.
So many depressing threads lately- I used to come to Teamliquid and reddit for a laugh or an interesting discussion, but now everyone is just talking like a doomsayer....
It seems like with the recent mass success of LoL and Dota 2 people think SC2 is on the way out the door. While I agree there is a lot Blizzard can do to make the game more accessible to casual gamers like moba games are I don't think that the lack of this will kill SC2. BNet 2.0 obviously leaves a lot to be desired but that won't kill SC2.
We still have an amazing competitive scene and there are more tournaments going on right now than any one person can reasonably keep up with. SC2 as a whole continues to grow and expand and the next logical step is some governing body over the entire scene. Something like an NFL or NBA that handles team interactions, matches, tournaments and such. Obviously SC2 isn't conducive to a full on replication of either of these leagues but we are in desperate need of a centralized body of power that everyone can look to in order to keep up with the scene.
Right now viewership is so divided between all of these tournaments that it makes the scene seem smaller than it actually is. I for one love watching SC2 and I've watched every season of the GSL since it's inception. I've also watched and attended many MLG events as well as tried to keep up with events like Homestory Cup and Dreamhack. But in all honesty I have barely touched NASL, ESL, WCS, any of the ASUS tournaments or any of a huge number of other tournaments.
There's just too much content out there. Streamlining the money in the scene into a major league (global or continental based) would give us a more professional looking product and hopefully stabilize the money flow for some of these teams that are spread too thin right now while also making it easier to follow.
The way I kind of equate this in my head to fields sports like football is, okay the NFL has a lot going on but what if there were 20 different NFL's that all had separate schedules and teams that overlapped in some but not others. It would be chaos and extremely difficult to follow and keep up to date.
Anyways, this has become much more wordy than I initially intended. My point is that it seems like Valve and Riot have taken this role on themselves a bit more whereas Blizzard had just thrown another event it an already overly populated event schedule so we really need someone to take that role on for SC2 as the next step in our scene. Just my $0.02.
On October 18 2012 21:30 pallad wrote: Slayers disband and we got crissis in sc 2 ? lol , its sounds like fan boy post Other thing is new expansions for WoW always have big hype at begining , its normal , 2-3 months from now it will be less numbers for WoW. Stop compared LoL to Sc2 .. how many more people will do that.. ? LoL is a MOBA game , and moba gendre is now HUGE ! , sc2 is rts , and its not free like LoL
To me personaly , your thread makes no seanse.
I'm sorry but ur post doesn't make any sense except that people shouldn't compare sc2 and LoL that i agree with.
A title with the word crisis is just trying to incite fear in the reader. I hate when the national news does it and it's irresponsible to use the word here too. The world is not at its end. No one's life is in danger of being lost.
Now I did read what you wrote and you just summarized all the bad facts of 2012. But there is a lot of positive going on right now for SC2. Kespa joined the SC2 ranks. GomTV had it's 2 year anniversary. The current GSL has shown the most exciting games yet. WCS has been exciting to watch. MLG is still hosting great tournaments. So while I believe HOTS has a long way to go, SC2 in its current WOL state is doing great.
As both a League of Legends player AND a StarCraft II player, I have to say the fanbases for these games and the amount of hours that people spend on these games tells the real story. League of Legends is the most played PC game with a growing community. StarCraft peaked for the first few months after release and have been declining ever since. Even with the future release of HotS, I know there are plenty of people that simply won't invest any money into it simply because they feel it will be a rehash of the same old thing.
Looking at it from a gameplay standpoint, it's hard to get that social feeling in StarCraft II compared to League of Legends. Working as a team to capture objectives, communication, and focus are all required to win any League game. It's far easier and almost required to play with friends if you want to play at any competitive level. With regards to StarCraft, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 game styles are simply not competitive and completely overshadowed by the dominance of 1v1, where it's you alone playing with another individual you've probably never met before (and probably isn't interested in communication). Custom games, while somewhat enjoyable from an entertainment standpoint doesn't give off that competitive feel. League has somehow been able to combine both a social and competitive gaming atmosphere in one.
Finally, barriers to entry is another important aspect to League's success. League has been able to monetize the sale of skins and champions to a point that anyone that has played League for more than 50 or more games doesn't feel taken advantage of when dropping $10-15 to add a bit of flair. Some of my best friends that are not interested in StarCraft II have spent over $400 combined simply because "they had to have it". If you want to compete in the StarCraft 2 scene, you need to pony up $40-60 before you really get a taste of what it's like. Sure there is the Starter Edition, but it's so limited in what it provides the users. There's very few ways in which Blizzard could monetize StarCraft II if they incorporated a free-to-play model simply because of the nature of the game. Not having all the champions in LoL doesn't make you unable to play nor does it greatly hinder your experience. Not having the Collosus or the Archon as Protoss would probably ruin the entire game and ruin all competition.
I remember thread like this popped up long time ago then dissapeared and now it comes again. It will show up once in a while I guess. Thanks for reminding me that SC2 will die soon. Don't forget to remind me again next year.
I really don't see the sense in this redundant thread which just offers another opinion that SC2 is doomed. The Destiny thread is filled with opinions that SC2 is doomed. Is this opinion worthy of a new thread simply because the OP summarized the history of SC2 which made his post really long? The only real reasoning in the Op in support of a claim for crisis is 1) there isn't much hype for hots right now (even though the beta invite threads are crammed full of people raging that they didn't get an invite because they're dying to play) and 2) Dota and LoL are doing better. Neither of those things preclude the SC2 scene from being stable right now.
Also I love how so many people are referring to declining stream numbers, and then the only examples they can give are IdrA and Stephano. They then cite insanely high previous viewer numbers like "12k" when those two were only getting those numbers because 1) they hadn't streamed much if at all in the past, 2) they weren't streaming often and 3) theyre the two most popular foreigners. Their inflated numbers declined because their novelty wore off.
Starcraft 2 as an rts game is just not as good as broodwar was... Comparing to LoL is relevant because of the ecosystem Starcraft 2 lives in. I think the main issues have been repeated a million times. The core game mechanics just not lead to that interesting play... and I think that adding some extra units - sadly - won't fix this... No real positional play, big deathballs, etc, etc... I really, really hope that Blizzard pulls out the miracle from their hats and make HotS amazing.
the match ups are stale imo, ZvZ is for me the only fun match up, ZvT is slow and boring with a lot of Ts going mech ball and this will only get worse in hots, ZvP is laughable . . . I switched to LoL recently and it is way more fun and dynamic and less stressful.
Everyone is freaking out way too much about this. There will be ups and downs, there is no reason that people should believe that the golden age of early 2012 should continue. SC2 is enormously bigger than BW and is still the primary E-sport, size isn't the big deal in E-sports it's production value and SC2 leads the way in that. I love LoL but if you look at the World Finals, TSM basically got kicked out because a korean team cheated and then won. SC2 will still be a great game, but it won't have a golden year for a little while again.
Sorry man Sc2 is just boring to play. I dont have anything wrong with the game balance. LoL is slightly more entertaining, and easier to play, (and less stressful) so that is what I'll play. Im not afraid of losing rank points, or ladder fear or any of that shit.
I think sc2 is stressful for me because I have to constantly, from beginning to end, pay 100% attention to the screen and make sure everything i do in the game is as efficient as I am capable of. In LoL, i dont have to do that. The first minute of the game is just sitting and waiting ffs, I can just relax. If I die, i have to wait to respawn, I can just relax. It's a no brainer. Not only is LoL more entertaining to play, i feel more comfortable while playing it.
Can someone please explain why LOL which has been out longer than SC2 is just now starting to take away from the fan base of SC2? What is causing this. I see this point brought up over and over, but not what changed in LOL that made it suddenly the better game?
Why is everyone saying SC2 is in a crisis? It had $5mill+ put into it since it came out, obviously way less than League of Legends, but it is a 1 versus 1 game, so obviously will have less raw total players playing at any given time. Only real problem for fans is over-saturation, but for players this is good as they have more chances to win money. To the person above, LoL is more popular because it is a team game. 1v1 games are inherently more stressful, just think about individual sports; you can see team games in general are more fun.
On October 18 2012 23:49 StreetWise wrote: Can someone please explain why LOL which has been out longer than SC2 is just now starting to take away from the fan base of SC2? What is causing this. I see this point brought up over and over, but not what changed in LOL that made it suddenly the better game?
Riots willingness to evolve really.
I played League when it first hit the market. The game was... rough around the edges we'll say.
The major change in the game that has spurred it forward in competitive esports is Season 2. Riot decided that they have finally gotten the gameplay and balance into a state that they are happy with, so they started pushing it competitively.
-Constant tweaks to the various heroes to manage their competitive and casual applications. One of their major rules is that no single hero can ever be too dominant in either competitive OR casual play, even if it affects the other in a negative way. If a single champion is going 20-0 every game even in the noob realm, it will be nerfed.
-Actively engaging the community. Riot updates their own forums constantly. Many of their top game designers are active community members including casting gigs and such. Riot is deeply invested in their community.
-Putting their money where their mouth is. Riot just finished their world championships tournament this past weekend. I'm not sure how much money was put up, but I know that it's over $1 million in prizes.
-Boldness moving forward. Immediately after all this success, Riot has announced that Season 3 is right around the corner and they are changing a good 50% of the game trying to make it better. These aren't small changes, they are massive, sweeping changes. They will take the risk and see how it turns out. Nobody wants a stagnant game, and Riot is happy to be the ones spurring the evolution of the metagame forward.
Pretty much, Riot is making all the changes to their game that we have been asking Blizzard to make for the past 2 years. They aren't doing anything special, just standard maintenance of their game really...
On October 18 2012 23:49 StreetWise wrote: Can someone please explain why LOL which has been out longer than SC2 is just now starting to take away from the fan base of SC2? What is causing this. I see this point brought up over and over, but not what changed in LOL that made it suddenly the better game?
Riots willingness to evolve really.
I played League when it first hit the market. The game was... rough around the edges we'll say.
The major change in the game that has spurred it forward in competitive esports is Season 2. Riot decided that they have finally gotten the gameplay and balance into a state that they are happy with, so they started pushing it competitively.
-Constant tweaks to the various heroes to manage their competitive and casual applications. One of their major rules is that no single hero can ever be too dominant in either competitive OR casual play, even if it affects the other in a negative way. If a single champion is going 20-0 every game even in the noob realm, it will be nerfed.
-Actively engaging the community. Riot updates their own forums constantly. Many of their top game designers are active community members including casting gigs and such. Riot is deeply invested in their community.
-Putting their money where their mouth is. Riot just finished their world championships tournament this past weekend. I'm not sure how much money was put up, but I know that it's over $1 million in prizes.
-Boldness moving forward. Immediately after all this success, Riot has announced that Season 3 is right around the corner and they are changing a good 50% of the game trying to make it better. These aren't small changes, they are massive, sweeping changes. They will take the risk and see how it turns out. Nobody wants a stagnant game, and Riot is happy to be the ones spurring the evolution of the metagame forward.
Pretty much, Riot is making all the changes to their game that we have been asking Blizzard to make for the past 2 years. They aren't doing anything special, just standard maintenance of their game really...
Sorry I don't follow LoL, but I know from last night's NASL segment about the LoL world championship was that the grand final was a total of $2 million and the first place gets a million? Then the remaining 1 million gets divided among the 2nd thru whatever place right? Does LoL world championship also had like regional championships like WCS in SC2?
On October 18 2012 23:48 ishyishy wrote: Sorry man Sc2 is just boring to play. I dont have anything wrong with the game balance. LoL is slightly more entertaining, and easier to play, (and less stressful) so that is what I'll play. Im not afraid of losing rank points, or ladder fear or any of that shit.
I think sc2 is stressful for me because I have to constantly, from beginning to end, pay 100% attention to the screen and make sure everything i do in the game is as efficient as I am capable of. In LoL, i dont have to do that. The first minute of the game is just sitting and waiting ffs, I can just relax. If I die, i have to wait to respawn, I can just relax. It's a no brainer. Not only is LoL more entertaining to play, i feel more comfortable while playing it.
I never understood how moba games give less stress then SC2. The whole design of the genre is rage inducing when 1 bad person can fuck it up for the whole team.
On October 18 2012 23:48 ishyishy wrote: Sorry man Sc2 is just boring to play. I dont have anything wrong with the game balance. LoL is slightly more entertaining, and easier to play, (and less stressful) so that is what I'll play. Im not afraid of losing rank points, or ladder fear or any of that shit.
I think sc2 is stressful for me because I have to constantly, from beginning to end, pay 100% attention to the screen and make sure everything i do in the game is as efficient as I am capable of. In LoL, i dont have to do that. The first minute of the game is just sitting and waiting ffs, I can just relax. If I die, i have to wait to respawn, I can just relax. It's a no brainer. Not only is LoL more entertaining to play, i feel more comfortable while playing it.
I never understood how moba games give less stress then SC2. The whole design of the genre is rage inducing when 1 bad person can fuck it up for the whole team.
Ah, but you can blame a loss on your teammates and never have to deal with the fact that you might have been the primary cause. The games let you scapegoat; there's almost no sense of personal responsibility in the community.
On October 18 2012 23:48 ishyishy wrote: Sorry man Sc2 is just boring to play. I dont have anything wrong with the game balance. LoL is slightly more entertaining, and easier to play, (and less stressful) so that is what I'll play. Im not afraid of losing rank points, or ladder fear or any of that shit.
Then SC2 was never the game for you. Not everyone is cut out for such a demanding game. Enjoy your fearless, stress-free game my friend.
Bnet 2.0 has been the problem the entire time, not the game itself, the game is actually fine, maybe some balance tweaks can be made but, problem is all about battle.net imo
also the only reason people feel LoL or Dota is stress free is because they can just have the excuse that their allies were bad
when you play 1v1s and your record is bad, it's entirely ur fault
I think Blizzard have gained too much control over SC2 that it seems kind of ruined. Dota strived on the community , and even blizzard tried to have rights for the Dora trade marked name since it was made on their map editor.
It seemed that they saw the success on brood war and made wanted to make sure they had a piece of the pie by giving limitations to the community.
I think it's time to let the community balance itself out... Let the community figure out what needs to be balanced and get map makers to implement them and tested by the community to see what is acceptable... Heck maybe a map maker can add better interesting units or even a new race....
Now that's some creativity I want to see, but blizzard somehow lost their touch and have become money hungry and to this day. Have not seen a decent mod map using the full potential of sc2 engine
Someone make a decent fps like counter strike or something
On October 18 2012 23:48 ishyishy wrote: Sorry man Sc2 is just boring to play. I dont have anything wrong with the game balance. LoL is slightly more entertaining, and easier to play, (and less stressful) so that is what I'll play. Im not afraid of losing rank points, or ladder fear or any of that shit.
I think sc2 is stressful for me because I have to constantly, from beginning to end, pay 100% attention to the screen and make sure everything i do in the game is as efficient as I am capable of. In LoL, i dont have to do that. The first minute of the game is just sitting and waiting ffs, I can just relax. If I die, i have to wait to respawn, I can just relax. It's a no brainer. Not only is LoL more entertaining to play, i feel more comfortable while playing it.
I never understood how moba games give less stress then SC2. The whole design of the genre is rage inducing when 1 bad person can fuck it up for the whole team.
Ah, but you can blame a loss on your teammates and never have to deal with the fact that you might have been the primary cause. The games let you scapegoat; there's almost no sense of personal responsibility in the community.
you can also take responsibility and see where you were wrong, plus a lot of people in SC2 use balance as a scapegoat
On October 19 2012 02:28 StarStruck wrote: There is no crisis. Stop going over the edge.
Have you logged on and checked the chat recently? Its completely dead. Same people on every day. Game IS dying, only the hardcore RTS players are left
No one ever used the chat in SC2, its not a valid source of measurement on how many that plays the game.
And that's a big problem. Many people would log onto Wc3 for hours and not play a single game. You had an online community there that was fun to be apart of. This is part of why this game is dying. All my friends who bought this game in 2010, stopped playing within months.
A huge error on the writers part is saying that dota 2 is a copy of lol. its the other way around, lol is a cheap kiddish rip of vanilla dota. dota 2 is the upgraded big brother of vanilla dota. in otherwords, dota is the more original game so to speak.
i tend to agree starcraft is waning interest. i personally have stopped watching streams and tournaments because its frustrating to keep up with the game. blizzard isnt helping with numerous patches that do exactly what people dont want. teams are splitting up, sponsors arent dishing out as much money anymore and people are looking to diversify their gaming. several pros have quit under the pressure of maintaining a career in the game.
its sad, i really enjoyed sc2 when it was developing. dont get me wrong, it still is, however, it just doesnt feel the same anymore. love lost? perhaps.
I do strongly believe a 1v1 RTS has the best chance of being a dominant eSport. However if Blizzard continues its current course with SC I honestly don't see that happening. To be honest, I am not a fan of the design direction of WoL or HotS, however I know there are a lot of people that would argue against me. The one thing I don't think can be disputed is the absolute lack of features in B.net 2.0 as compared to the work that Riot and Valve have put into their games. This is especially blatant when the BW and WC3 UI, older games by the same company are revered much higher than their most recent production. That is absolutely ridiculous, especially given the vast expanses of time between games.
Will Starcraft completely die if it continues on this course? No I don't think it will, the history and nostalgia of BW have created too strong an infrastructure of players, casters, and personalities whose lives are and depend on the game for it to completely disappear. Yet, if Gabe Newell ever decides to take a crack at a RTS the future of Jim Raynor could become much much bleaker.
On October 18 2012 16:05 Particle wrote: Listen naysayers/children. Sc2's piece of the e-sports pie will fizzle out. I watch GSL exclusively, because, in my opinion( if this is actually an opinion) the players are the best. Since the players are the best, that specific tournament can therefore be regarded as "THE SC2". What then is the purpose of MLG, DreamHack, IEM, blah, blah blah etc etc etc?
Do you see another NFL in America? Is there another derivative of basketball in the United States? Would you not be completely overwhelmed by having fourteen football games to watch in one day because eight different leagues are begging for your attention. Furthermore, if this were the case which one matters? No answer to that. It would just be a football ( substitute football for any other major professional sporting league ) orgy, day in day out with no real climaxes, and no real finales. Your brain wouldn't be able to anticipate, or care because it is still being raped by the residual sensory input from the day before ( which you only just finished viewing in the wee mornings of the next day).
This scene is so unbelievably over saturated it makes me want to scream. There needs to be a consolidation. I want to watch the best of the best of the best play one another. And I want a season to have meaning. AND I DO NOT WANT to find myself asking a fellow starfan "HEY!! Did you catch the finals last night?!!!" only to have the poor schmuck reply with " which one?" IF THIS HAS TO BE ASKED, NEITHER MATTER. At the moment it boils down to people following specific players, and whichever tournament said player is in, well thats THE TOURNAMENT THAT MATTERS BRO. Or...hey, look! So in So is casting this tournament! Well shit man, lemme shell out twenty bucks only so I can hear their godlike voice. How about those couches at Dreamhack that were so innovating, Leonardo Da'Vinci pulled himself from his grave and furiously masturbated?! How about the pitifulness of SC2 having to share space with games that, let's be honest require half the mental stamina and even less skill.
For this INDUSTRY to grow we need the folks who do not play this shit. We do not need to keep appealing to thirteen year olds who have all fucking day to monitor bullshit tournaments while simultaneously microing their marines. How many people who are psychotic Soccer fans play soccer on their free time? How many fat americans who will sooner suck Ben Roethlisberger's cock before they screw their wife actually go out and play a serious game of football? Rhetorical questions!!
A sport needs glory. It needs an end all be all. It needs prestige. It needs one ring to rule them all. And it certainly needs much much more than a majority base who all dream of being pro one day. This is why I watch GSL exclusively. Because it is what matters. It is where the best play. Never once have I purchased an MLG ticket. Never once have I tuned in to Day9;s after hours tournament, because those guys are professionals AT SOMETHING ELSE. Hey, let's watch Michael Jordan play baseball kids!!! YEAH!!!! Oh wait.........
I understand why things are the way they are at this very moment. This is a business and revenue needs to be generated and it certainly won't be given a subsidy of 100 billion dollars. Yes, you have to start small, and get hard...I mean big. Everything from a business perspective has birthed in a very standard way, but something is wrong. That something is the aura, we as the fanbase help to perpetuate. With an endless amount of tournaments popping up, disappearing, re popping and the mindless complexity of something such as the MLG annual schedule ( Which part of MLG matters? Hell if I know and I proudly do not give a shit )there is no possible way to ascertain what matters. If you cannot determine what matters, then naturally you ask what the fuck am I watching this for? If you answer "because I like playing starcraft and learning new builds" well.....that is NOT what this industry needs AT ALL. We need A STARCRAFT COMPETITION. NOT STARCRAFT COMPETITIONSSSSSSSSS. If I have to explain to my brother ( who does not care about any of this) why this kid who just won a tournament really holds no candle to a top Korean then....shit.......I feel dumb for even mentioning it. Not only do I feel dumb, but I feel ashamed for the scene that I love more than any other sport.
No I do not expect all lesser leagues to bow out overnight. They will bankrupt. That is how it works. And some will be assimilated using some of their facilities or networks or any useful pieces they may have. In hindsight I did not come on here to tell the depressed to stop watching 100 hours of Starcraft a week. I am saying that if Starcraft one day evolves into a pure legitimate sport it will not be because we have countless amounts of content. It will be because people who have never played SC2 are finally awake to the fact that this is something much more than a 3-d cake baked for nerd pleasure AND it will be because a Starcraft 2 title MATTERS. Editor's note: hmmm I am wondering if removing the 2 or any number from the title of the sport may help. After all it only serves as a reminder that this is a video game, and this is the sequel.
And...it would help if Blizzard shared this vision as well. For all we know they are more concerned with Starcraft 3 ( mmo or otherwise ) than they are of building a sporting dynasty. In addition to that, guaranteed, if that company controlled all rights ( given they do it properly ) to a one meaningful sporting league that earns millions of fans worldwide they would make far more money than they do now. Merchandising, revenue from the broadcasts, royalties etc. Who needs to make another Starcraft? We already have it. And it is a fucking sport. Of course World of Warcraft can be the engine that allows our sport to have all the finest amenities. :D
For those of you who have no jobs, or go to school and have no jobs, or have no interest in doing anything but watch SC2 VODS for eighteen hours each day, well.... you are already lost, and this post will only serve to give you a slight pinch in the asshole. I suspect anyone else would agree with me quickly or do so upon pondering what is really happening for a moment. If not....I dunno learn to think I guess.
p.s This post is written with a spirit that wants a much bigger picture. I am going to fucking hate everything about "E-Sports" if when a Starcraft 3 is released we have to start all this shit over again. To be a sport the game must at some point remain the same ( granted a perfect balancing is achieved ). At the very MOST updated graphics shall be implemented to stay current with the year 2065. Or we can just remain in our own little bubble reliving the birth, growth, and slow death of each competitive VIDEO GAME while desperately trying to get our loved ones to understand that the gift they gave us for christmas/birthday/baptism/virginity loss/ anniversary is something more than an escape from a difficult reality none of us pussy gamers are brave enough to face head on. (yeah that was sarcasm)
p.p.s Go IM-MVP!!
Nice post, never really thought about it, but you make some good points.
(Now there's no more Broodwar tourney's, we should just call Starcraft 2, Starcraft.)
ehm wtf are you talking about. There are plenty of brood war tournaments.
The metagame issues your talking about are actually bullshit(Terran lategame issues bla bla aka avilo trash talk) thats obvious your opionion, I agree with the rest which are opionions which other community figures already said.
On October 19 2012 02:28 StarStruck wrote: There is no crisis. Stop going over the edge.
Have you logged on and checked the chat recently? Its completely dead. Same people on every day. Game IS dying, only the hardcore RTS players are left
Or maybe everyone who got invited is playing beta? Blizzard did say account activity does affect who they invite.
lol I highly doubt it. Last time I logged onto HOTS (like a week ago) the last of my friends to log on had been 3 weeks before that. There's probably more BW streams on TL at any given moment than HOTS. HOTS fizzled after a week.
On October 19 2012 02:28 StarStruck wrote: There is no crisis. Stop going over the edge.
Have you logged on and checked the chat recently? Its completely dead. Same people on every day. Game IS dying, only the hardcore RTS players are left
No one ever used the chat in SC2, its not a valid source of measurement on how many that plays the game.
But its a valid source of how terrible Bnet 2.0 is.
indeed!
I would give anything for a nice good, solid chat system that is more than the simple chats we have now
We need a moderated chat. An IRC style chat that they had in BW would suffice after all. Then you don't have random people joining chats others dont want them to be in and if they do you can moderate them.
On October 19 2012 03:45 ACrow wrote: So many people here glorifying lol and acting as if SC2 was dead... Why don't you just go to the appropriate forums?
Because it should be OK to like something and talk about something even if it is dying?
On October 19 2012 03:45 ACrow wrote: So many people here glorifying lol and acting as if SC2 was dead... Why don't you just go to the appropriate forums?
This is such a bad mindset .. Dude, the OP is saying to learn from the improvements that LoL and Dota2 have : such as showing sponsor banners inside the game or allowing to watch live games from inside the game, etc. How about watch the video instead of reading the last page and throwing crap around ?
On October 19 2012 03:45 ACrow wrote: So many people here glorifying lol and acting as if SC2 was dead... Why don't you just go to the appropriate forums?
Because it should be OK to like something and talk about something even if it is dying?
Moba's are missing depth to keep up long term interest/motivation. Additionally its much harder to watch/understand for non-players. It has zero chance to extend beyond the players community. Building up an e-sports game is a long term process requiring several generations of gamers, a complex game with a high skill ceiling. Anybody who watched BW is likely to watch/be interested in watching SC2. There are a lot of 30+ people in SC2. To get broad interest we at least need to wait like 10 years.
Anyway, Blizzard should consider a F2Play model. This is probably more important than tweaking the game
On October 18 2012 14:20 pmp10 wrote: I used to think SC2 is heading in the normal direction with expansions. Now I'm beginning to think that community is hell bend on killing it off even before HotS.
Me too. I think people its panicking for nothing. LoL its free. That starcrat could release 3 starter editions one for terran one for toss and one for zerg. Yes they could and maybe that could help to get more people playing it cause "hey i can try the race i want for free".
But all this topics attacking Blizz for the HoTS BETA are unnecesary. I remark the word BETAcause people seem to have forget what a beta is. The beta its for making suggestions, asking for things we want and testing the new units. People panicking like crazy cause the tempest has these range or because the oracle dont has this spell or that unit dont make the game as funny as i want or because blizzard has said nothing yet about new content and modes on multiplayer is just nonsense.
With such an inmature behaviour we dont help blizzard to make HoTS the game we all want. Now we have to be calm, test the things, make suggestions of changes supported by good reasons and demand new content for multiplayer and that kind of social aspects that would make people to log in as some pple demand on the english battle.net forum.
Overreacting for every little patch of the beta has no logic. They are not definitive patchs tons of things will change and if we do as i suggested before Blizzard will take care of our needs and our points. We have the opportunity to help Blizz to make a really good game but instead of that we are attacking them and Starcraft2 for free.
If this hysterya continues it wont matter if lol or dota are free cause we will kill sc2 ourselves.
On October 18 2012 14:20 pmp10 wrote: I used to think SC2 is heading in the normal direction with expansions. Now I'm beginning to think that community is hell bend on killing it off even before HotS.
Me too. I think people its panicking for nothing. LoL its free. That starcrat could release 3 starter editions one for terran one for toss and one for zerg. Yes they could and maybe that could help to get more people playing it cause "hey i can try the race i want for free".
But all this topics attacking Blizz for the HoTS BETA are unnecesary. I remark the word BETAcause people seem to have forget what a beta is. The beta its for making suggestions, asking for things we want and testing the new units. People panicking like crazy cause the tempest has these range or because the oracle dont has this spell or that unit dont make the game as funny as i want or because blizzard has said nothing yet about new content and modes on multiplayer is just nonsense.
With such an inmature behaviour we dont help blizzard to make HoTS the game we all want. Now we have to be calm, test the things, make suggestions of changes supported by good reasons and demand new content for multiplayer and that kind of social aspects that would make people to log in as some pple demand on the english battle.net forum.
Overreacting for every little patch of the beta has no logic. They are not definitive patchs tons of things will change and if we do as i suggested before Blizzard will take care of our needs and our points. We have the opportunity to help Blizz to make a really good game but instead of that we are attacking them and Starcraft2 for free.
If this hysterya continues it wont matter if lol or dota are free cause we will kill sc2 ourselves.
At the end of the day SC2 is just a video game like LoL and DoTA. I mean if it dies it dies, it's only a game, people take these way too seriously. They act like as if SC2 is their girlfriend that refuses to put out and will dump her for that slutty LoL girl that's been around that block if SC2 doesn't wear the crotchless panties on their next date.
Jeez people if SC2 really grinds your gear that much then just go play LoL/DoTA2, go outside, go do something else, you're just making this painful for yourself, really.
On October 18 2012 14:20 pmp10 wrote: I used to think SC2 is heading in the normal direction with expansions. Now I'm beginning to think that community is hell bend on killing it off even before HotS.
Me too. I think people its panicking for nothing. LoL its free. That starcrat could release 3 starter editions one for terran one for toss and one for zerg. Yes they could and maybe that could help to get more people playing it cause "hey i can try the race i want for free".
But all this topics attacking Blizz for the HoTS BETA are unnecesary. I remark the word [u]BETA
Mr. 16 posts, please stop derailing the thread. The main point is not really attacking blizz. Actually the OP has said that it's fine with the current game but would like some improvements unrelated to balance. Go watch the video FFS!
On October 19 2012 04:14 ref4 wrote: Jeez people if SC2 really grinds your gear that much then just go play LoL/DoTA2, go outside, go do something else, you're just making this painful for yourself, really.
You have a narrow perception about things . This thread is about how the Sc2 devs can learn from the other games's progress and implement some of the features not about whining that unit x is OP or something .
DOTA, DOTA 2, and LoL are a joke.. The fact that they are gaining in popularity says nothing about SC2, but a lot about the population of this planet.. People don't want difficult games.. games that require high degrees of skill.. people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics. SC2 is an art form and games like DOTA and LoL will never come close.. It is sad, but that is what we are up against..
I think what SC2 is perhaps lacking compared to BW is the ability to show that our pro players are actually the best RTS players in the world. When it comes to popularity the masses always prefer to watch those very few who are at the very top of the "gaussian curve" and the very best at what they do.
That is why Usain Bolt gets multiple times more viewers for the competition he participates in than the next best guy at spinting. At the moment is it so ambiguous regarding gaming about who the best RTS gamers are and what game they are playing that it splits the audience. Especially since the new games have not been established for so long (obviously).
If SC2 could somehow evolve to the point that the overall consensus would be that OK, the best gamers simply are the ones who play SC2 at highest level and that's it, that would gain much bigger attention and publicity for SC2. And that could actually happen without SC2 having been the most popular game all the time. It would only have to survive in the long run.
Being able to claimg that best RTS gamers are SC2 gamers is not something that would happen overnight. It is something that would require the top players to evolve so far beyond the casual gamer that they would simply be unthouchable by any casual master player, so much so that they would be in a league of their own. Similarly to chess Grandmasters being different from Masters. You would simply have zero chances against a pro when you were lucky enough to play one in TL Attack. On the other hand, we did see this happen with BW. But nowadays that scenario will probably require so much time and effort that it is very unlikely to happen within any few years even if the game remained unchanged as it is, which it won't.
Well a game that relies on esports is not a good game, I just play sc2 because it is best multiplayer rts out there (yes bw and wc3 but not many people play and bad servers). If people don't want to watch it, who cares...
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
On October 19 2012 04:02 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Moba's are missing depth to keep up long term interest/motivation. Additionally its much harder to watch/understand for non-players. It has zero chance to extend beyond the players community. Building up an e-sports game is a long term process requiring several generations of gamers, a complex game with a high skill ceiling. Anybody who watched BW is likely to watch/be interested in watching SC2. There are a lot of 30+ people in SC2. To get broad interest we at least need to wait like 10 years.
Anyway, Blizzard should consider a F2Play model. This is probably more important than tweaking the game
I hesitate to add post count to this thread, but anyway...
On the time scale you're thinking about, won't the price of the game come down a lot anyway? Of course participation you can win now counts for a lot, but it's also asking a lot to just completely restructure the business model.
On October 19 2012 04:02 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Moba's are missing depth to keep up long term interest/motivation. Additionally its much harder to watch/understand for non-players. It has zero chance to extend beyond the players community. Building up an e-sports game is a long term process requiring several generations of gamers, a complex game with a high skill ceiling. Anybody who watched BW is likely to watch/be interested in watching SC2. There are a lot of 30+ people in SC2. To get broad interest we at least need to wait like 10 years.
Anyway, Blizzard should consider a F2Play model. This is probably more important than tweaking the game
I watched SC:BW for a long time, then SC2 from release to a month ago. Now I watch dota 2 instead. More depth in Dota 2 than current sc2 meta with more interesting and strong abilities that remind me of SC:BW. But to me the most important factor is that it is entertaining and the way the pick / ban phase works you get a lot of variation in the matches and stuff. So I'm done with SC2 unless there is a positive shift with Hots I might check back.
SC2 still has the best esports personalities but tbh, the game is more important to me.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
I am really REALLY happy and relieved that others also believe in sc2.
Listen all you so called professionals. Being pro is more then getting paid to play. It is a state of being and an attitude. I don't want to EVER here that sc2 is dieing, just because YOU have lost the passion to play. There are THOUSANDS of nerds who dream of playing sc2 and going pro, and would replace you in a second if they could.
All this doom talk is shattering the dreams of many of these amateurs, who thank the sponsors, attend MLGs, and watch your streams! If you lost the passion to play. keep the bashing to your self, and mentor someone( or many (Just do something productive and STFU)). Additionally, and most importantly, act like a professional, and keep the dream alive even if you don't believe in it. There is no guarantee that any game after sc2 will be better.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it.
Imo they should make WoL free to play during the hots beta to hook more people up with sc2. Nobody is going to buy WoL nowadays and this way blizzard could atleast attract some people to try it out. I mean lets face it, they arent going to make anymore money out of sc2(by selling the game atleast)
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: DOTA, DOTA 2, and LoL are a joke.. The fact that they are gaining in popularity says nothing about SC2, but a lot about the population of this planet.. People don't want difficult games.. games that require high degrees of skill.. people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics. SC2 is an art form and games like DOTA and LoL will never come close.. It is sad, but that is what we are up against..
Na'Vi and Dendi is the only reason to watch Dota/2 period. But other then that mobas are insanely boring or we're farming for 10-20mins of the game oh WAIT OFMG EPIC GANK or that WAS A FAIL GANK BRO GET ON MY LEVEL SON or the carry's farmed/fed gg son.
Granted watching a code s level player playing some no name is just as boring or in most cases sad to watch. Much rather watch SC2 everyday.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it.
If they could actually settle a team yeah.... What you fail to understand is that a skilled DotA team is far more than the sum of each player's individual skills, that is what mostly makes the higher echelon of skill ceiling, and even within individual skill there is a HUGE, GIGANTIC difference between "good" guys (akin to masters in SC2) and pro level players.
You know nothing about Dota, just face it and stop talking about things you don't know. DotA and SC2 are very different games requiring very different skillsets, it makes no sense to compare them. SC2 is of course extremely difficult, everyone knows that, but the way you talk about DotA is evidence as to how ignorant you are about this game.
Popularity is an entirely different thing. You are more likely to watch something you actually play, and having DotA-like games in general being more "fun" to play at a casual level means a lot more people will play, and hence, watch, there is nothing more to it. The reason SC2 is dwindling in popularity is not because of how difficult it is, but rather how bad of a social experience it is (mind you, I play most of my games completely alone, and personally don't care, but this issue is evident). Most gamers nowadays go to the internet for a social thing, this is also a big part of why D3's popularity falls. Battle.net 2.0 has failed to deliver the social experience most people want out of their online games, DotA-likes are social by nature, which makes them more popular at base-level.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it.
If they could actually settle a team yeah.... What you fail to understand is that a skilled DotA team is far more than the sum of each player's individual skills, that is what mostly makes the higher echelon of skill ceiling, and even within individual skill there is a HUGE, GIGANTIC difference between "good" guys (akin to masters in SC2) and pro level players.
You know nothing about Dota, just face it and stop talking about things you don't know. DotA and SC2 are very different games requiring very different skillsets, it makes no sense to compare them. SC2 is of course extremely difficult, everyone knows that, but the way you talk about DotA is evidence as to how ignorant you are about this game.
Popularity is an entirely different thing. You are more likely to watch something you actually play, and having DotA-like games in general being more "fun" to play at a casual level means a lot more people will play, and hence, watch, there is nothing more to it. The reason SC2 is dwindling in popularity is not because of how difficult it is, but rather how bad of a social experience it is (mind you, I play most of my games completely alone, and personally don't care, but this issue is evident). Most gamers nowadays go to the internet for a social thing, this is also a big part of why D3's popularity falls. Battle.net 2.0 has failed to deliver the social experience most people want out of their online games, DotA-likes are social by nature, which makes them more popular at base-level.
I fail to see the social aspect in game of lol of playing it for 3 months and got tired of the weird new hereos who were also like weird crappy knockoffs dota heroes and lame sense of balance . Dota2 has those cool chat boxes that are brood war-esque which is cool. I can respect dota for what it is and some of its mechanics. The things Dendi does gives me a better light of dota and a reason to no hate it like I do to lol.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it.
If they could actually settle a team yeah.... What you fail to understand is that a skilled DotA team is far more than the sum of each player's individual skills, that is what mostly makes the higher echelon of skill ceiling, and even within individual skill there is a HUGE, GIGANTIC difference between "good" guys (akin to masters in SC2) and pro level players.
You know nothing about Dota, just face it and stop talking about things you don't know. DotA and SC2 are very different games requiring very different skillsets, it makes no sense to compare them. SC2 is of course extremely difficult, everyone knows that, but the way you talk about DotA is evidence as to how ignorant you are about this game.
Popularity is an entirely different thing. You are more likely to watch something you actually play, and having DotA-like games in general being more "fun" to play at a casual level means a lot more people will play, and hence, watch, there is nothing more to it. The reason SC2 is dwindling in popularity is not because of how difficult it is, but rather how bad of a social experience it is (mind you, I play most of my games completely alone, and personally don't care, but this issue is evident). Most gamers nowadays go to the internet for a social thing, this is also a big part of why D3's popularity falls. Battle.net 2.0 has failed to deliver the social experience most people want out of their online games, DotA-likes are social by nature, which makes them more popular at base-level.
I fail to see the social aspect in game of lol of playing it for 3 months and got tired of the weird new hereos who were also like weird crappy knockoffs dota heroes and lame sense of balance . Dota2 has those cool chat boxes that are brood war-esque which is cool. I can respect dota for what it is and some of its mechanics. The things Dendi does gives me a better light of dota and a reason to no hate it like I do to lol.
The fact that it is a team game already makes it social, despite having mostly trolls and ragers on low level games, and most people tag in with a friend from the start. This is disregarding ANY game factors. I don't play LoL it's terrible imo, but that's not the issue at hand.
The point is people are more likely to watch a game they play, and the social nature of DotA-likes makes it more likely people will play, which translates into more viewers.
A better social experience out of Bnet 2.0 would bring a ton more viewers, even noobs would watch.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it.
If they could actually settle a team yeah.... What you fail to understand is that a skilled DotA team is far more than the sum of each player's individual skills, that is what mostly makes the higher echelon of skill ceiling, and even within individual skill there is a HUGE, GIGANTIC difference between "good" guys (akin to masters in SC2) and pro level players.
You know nothing about Dota, just face it and stop talking about things you don't know. DotA and SC2 are very different games requiring very different skillsets, it makes no sense to compare them. SC2 is of course extremely difficult, everyone knows that, but the way you talk about DotA is evidence as to how ignorant you are about this game.
Popularity is an entirely different thing. You are more likely to watch something you actually play, and having DotA-like games in general being more "fun" to play at a casual level means a lot more people will play, and hence, watch, there is nothing more to it. The reason SC2 is dwindling in popularity is not because of how difficult it is, but rather how bad of a social experience it is (mind you, I play most of my games completely alone, and personally don't care, but this issue is evident). Most gamers nowadays go to the internet for a social thing, this is also a big part of why D3's popularity falls. Battle.net 2.0 has failed to deliver the social experience most people want out of their online games, DotA-likes are social by nature, which makes them more popular at base-level.
I fail to see the social aspect in game of lol of playing it for 3 months and got tired of the weird new hereos who were also like weird crappy knockoffs dota heroes and lame sense of balance . Dota2 has those cool chat boxes that are brood war-esque which is cool. I can respect dota for what it is and some of its mechanics. The things Dendi does gives me a better light of dota and a reason to no hate it like I do to lol.
The fact that it is a team game already makes it social, despite having mostly trolls and ragers on low level games, and most people tag in with a friend from the start.
When I got my friends who went from playing sc2 and got tired of the frustration implored me to play lol that was dumb as fuck and they raged more then I did when playing. The fact that the game is a team game can make being mad easier though because you can blame your team for being fuckups. I got into the Dota2 beta and enjoyed the cleaner interface and graphics compared to the childish lol who people I have talked to say looks better then D2 which is just not true. Gave my friends didn't like D2 for some reason despite it being the better game actually in terms of mobas. And in D2 they have a voice chat function built in which imo makes communicating way easier. though obviously if you are playing as a team you use a third party program to have voicechat (fill in the blank program).
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it)
Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it.
Skill ceiling? How lovely of you to pull out that word. True, any game with multiple units has a higher skillceiling. It's purely statistical. You can easily check this when you give control to a micro bot; a micro bot can individually micro every unit while macroing everything in his base while doing drone micro to improve his harvest rate while .... The more objects you give it to interact with, the more decisions it has to make. Every decision can become optimal and a bot would know all the optimal decisions (disregarding strategy for now). It can do everything at the same time, you're just adding parameters and objects to control. But skill ceiling is not something you can use to measure the amount of skill it requires for a human being (mechanical or tactical). You'd have to be a fool to believe that the pro's of sc2 would be instant wonders at dota. You clearly have no clue of dota. The competition at the highest level of dota is insane, you don't just start owning the place. If I'm great at guitar, I don't instantly start owning on the piano. It's a different game, different instrument. If you had mentioned bw pro's instead of sc2 pro's I'd be more inclined to agree because the kespa players are just godly and even though there skill wouldn't transfer immediately either, because they are so talented and mechanical beasts they would become great at it. (but not necessarily the best).
Marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it. Care to enligthen me on the other amazing aspects of sc2? Fungal? Forcefield? A-move with collussi? Emp? Mutalisk micro? Hellion moving shot? loool summing up all these things makes me quite sad that we'll never see reaver dropship control, mutalisk micro, vulture patrol, dragoon micro,...
On October 18 2012 14:01 Filter wrote: The Middle of 2012 Prize pools started to stagnate and the big sponsors weren't coming. Another game was starting to show promise as an esport, and their community was getting behind them. Day9 only had 8000 viewers when he streamed instead of the usual 20k. The builds players were using and struggling against were basically the same as they were 6 months ago.
You could watch a high level pro game of SC2 and know exactly how it was going to pan out after the players opened, with some rare exceptions (TvT excluded of course). 75% of the games played had no combat at all for the first 10 minutes of the game, and of those another large batch would end in a single fight instead of sustained action.
Something did indeed happen around the middle of 2012:
Balance Update 5.10.12 was released on May 10, 2012.
Protoss ■Observer build time decreased from 40 to 30 seconds
Zerg ■Overlord movement speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586 ■Queen anti-ground weapon attack range increased from 3 to 5
At the time there were heated arguments (which persist to this day) over whether the changes were necessary and whether they broke the balance of the game. IMO, while the changes didn't imbalance the game, they did have the net effect which the OP describes. Early aggression in any games featuring Zergs was essentially neutered. Every game thus devolved into a boring as hell match where nothing happens for the first 10 minutes. I don't fault any of the players for this, since they are simply trying their best to win and these kinds of games were the only reliable style left to them.
Essentially, SC2 has become perceived (rightfully or not...) as solved game: one in which all the best moves and correct choices are already known. It is this lack of strategic depth that has killed interest in the game. Especially when SC2 is supposed to be a strategy game. SC2 has an additional problem in that it has a very high barrier of entry for newcomers compared to something like LoL due to the mechanics and build knowledge required to even perform decently well at a professional level. This barrier prevents new blood from coming into the scene (with exceptions like Kespa) and possibly inventing new strategies that could shake up the scene and make things interesting again.
On October 19 2012 04:02 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Moba's are missing depth to keep up long term interest/motivation. Additionally its much harder to watch/understand for non-players. It has zero chance to extend beyond the players community. Building up an e-sports game is a long term process requiring several generations of gamers, a complex game with a high skill ceiling. Anybody who watched BW is likely to watch/be interested in watching SC2. There are a lot of 30+ people in SC2. To get broad interest we at least need to wait like 10 years.
Anyway, Blizzard should consider a F2Play model. This is probably more important than tweaking the game
your first sentence is incorrect. DotA is played to this day, along with HoN, and along with other mobas that're similar. FPS games are as simple as can be for the eye to see, the only differences between games are the objectives, the guns, and the way that players handle the guns and situations. if you were to have any more depth to an existing game (and the understanding of it all was necessary to understand and appreciate it)... well, lets just say that a lot of gamers would not understand that they *need* to juggle several aspects of the game in order to stay competitive at all. if several years isn't enough to be considered long-term though (when it comes to established mobas), i'm not sure how long you expect these renditions of starcraft to last for.
i've heard complete non-spectators of LoL say it's like watching their kid with a dwarf, killing other dwarfs (is that not true?). deeper yet there are two teams with supposedly determined roles that have a clear goal of killing the other team's tower. deeper once again, and we have over a hundred different playable characters with unique abilities.
&&better yet, your friends seem to meet up online every other night to play and seem to talk about it a lot in school and on skype. same thing for videos on youtube, it is not likely that a video with high view count will get you to randomly give it a try and add onto its tally? popularity goes a long, long way before it starts to die down on its own. i'm not going to pretend that i know what this generation of young gamers is interested in, but i'm going to have to say LoL is a strong contender for the most popular in this day and age of young gaming. i consider popularity, ease of play, and community aspect all part of that depth..
so the same thing can be said of starcraft with what you've said about mobas... or rather a question of, 'how can i make the community more accessible that non-members can find their way around and sift through to the information they need?' i certainly do not see a 11 y/o looking through teamliquid to find belial's thread of the drone flower arrangement of death, and how it could help him improve against his cheesy buddies. sometimes, this starcraft community (not just TL) just takes the game too seriously and ends up shunning complete new-comers. even as a veteran of the game, i wouldn't even consider visiting the blizz-boards to see what's up with the sc2 posting there... because i feel like i know what to expect. many, MANY casuals don't even visit teamliquid because they find it hard to navigate or never tried doing so.. and this is just teamliquid, the hub of all starcraft esports.
I am gonna add a little spice to this. Giving GOM exclusive rights for sc2 in korea killed the game there and that's why it never took off in the first palce in the country we needed it the most :o
weren't there about 100000 people watching the wcs eu finals? I don't think it's that bad. well, broodwar was also dying for about 10 years, so I guess, we'll have to get used to these kind of threads.
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
If its easier to master, wouldnt you take advantage of the huge prize pool that they have? If its easier to master, you should easily have 2000 elo right?
On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote: people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics.
Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games.
Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
If its easier to master, wouldnt you take advantage of the huge prize pool that they have? If its easier to master, you should easily have 2000 elo right?
Usually, the whole SC2 vs. LoL discussion is useless and merely tangential to the topic at hand. In this case, however, it can shed some light on why SC2 seems to be struggling of late, so I'll bite.
Discussing whether SC2 or LoL is easier to master, in the end, boils down to what exactly "mastering" a game means. If the word is employed in the sense of reaching the top of the ladder and/or reaching pro-status, then bri9and's argument makes no sense, since the game's (theoretical) higher or lower difficulty will (or should) affect every player in a similar way.
However, if the verb "to master" is employed in a different way, especifically in the sense of grasping and learning the game's core mechanics in order to play in an efficient manner, then I'll go out on a limb here and claim that SC2 is clearly the more challenging game. When you take in consideration other factors, such as the prevalence of cheese in lower leagues, the absence of official and easy to access guides on the game, as welll as SC2's solo nature, it's no wonder that new players are often put-off from playing the game.
The problem I have with HotS is not that it doesn't interest me, it just feels more like an alpha test given that the "balance" changes are quite significant from week to week that its pointless to try to follow. I am personally quite excited to play it once it comes out but there's no reason for the community to pay much attention to the game when its so far away from a final product given that WoL is still pretty active. Adding new units to multiplayer is obviously going to attract attention but has major implications when minor adjustments (building/unit/research time) already have huge consequences. WoL was fairly balanced and Blizzard has no freaking clue how to add new units to HotS without greatly altering the gameplay already established.
Yes, there seems to be quite a few pros switching, but I don't see this being as big of a problem as its being made out to be. It's not like SC2 is losing all their players and fans. I know many people who play LoL now, but still spend a lot of time with SC2. LoL is getting bigger crowds, but its not stealing them away from Starcraft fans. I don't see why it has to be a problem that a game has more people interested in it. Obviously I would like SC2 to be #1, but its not the end if it isn't. I feel like we CAN bring more people to Starcraft because of the interface and in game changes. Not sure how exactly, but I hope someone is able to find a way.
There are a few points above that I agree with 100%
Namely that SC2 (and D3 for that matter) feel "disconnected".. There is no social aspect to the game. I know this all too well as I am a 1v1 player and have logged close to 20k games since beta. I don't mind it, I'm a lone wolf, but I'm sure more social people do. Even an embedded IRC channel would suffice.. heck, just put me in a room with 500+ other people so if I *want* to talk to someone, I can chime in, say my piece, and maybe pickup a challenge, KOTH, etc.. SC2 can very easily be a social game with a few minor tweaks (real chat, clan support, etc).
As far as SC2 being dead.. hell no.. it just aint so.
When the KESPA players announced that they were starting to play, it pumped new life blood into the entire system. Everyone got excited again and I was one of them. Seeing Flash play current top tier SC2 players was something that I've dreamed about for years and now it is a reality.. SC2 pros are fun to watch and seeing this influx of excellent top tier talent is exciting as hell! This website was a beacon for us SC1 players in a time we needed it the most and now that SC2 is out the community is growing.. With that growth comes some negative nancies, but trust me, SC2 isn't going anywhere.. regardless of how bad the beta looks right now.
One big difference I think what makes LoL so popular is that its a teamgame and therefore you dont take losses so hard. Thats also why you have a lot of imbalanced talk and cheating accusations, when Sc2 from an objective standpoint is one of the most balanced games ever created. In LoL and other mobas ( I think Dota2 would be close to LoL now if they just have released the fucking game lol) you can just blame your teammates and dont have to accept your own failure. I think Sc2 needs more ways to be played without ladder pressure also. Its sounds silly, but after a really nice and long game I always felt frightened to lose points/rank w/e to some stupid shit in the next game. Most people that play games just wanna relax after a hard day of work/studying w/e.
People saying MOBAs have no depth are about as ignorant as people who deny Evolution or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun. I'm not even exaggerating. If you truly believe that you are either entirely too dense to grasp the game's concepts or you've relegated yourself to mindless trolling.
The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state. The metagame is CONSTANTLY shifting. Heroes come and go in the competitive scene and there's players and teams innovating the game still to this day. Just this morning I watched a 20 minute game between M5 and NaVi where M5 took down a side of rax at 10 minutes following a level 1 Rosh kill. Tell me that's a typical game and I'll know to ignore you... It's idiotic to think that a game with a virtually limitless array of possible Hero combinations would lack depth. And Heroes are just a single aspect of the game. 2 teams could play the exact same lineup completely differently. Each heroes items are subject to individual preference or the strategy a team employs. DOTA is a game which I believe will never truly stagnate. DOTA has enjoyed almost 10 years of dynamic gameplay; StarCraft 2 is struggling after 2. Don't get me wrong, I love both games but to say DOTA lacks for depth? You gotta try harder than that...
On October 19 2012 10:47 SupLilSon wrote: People saying MOBAs have no depth are about as ignorant as people who deny Evolution or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun. I'm not even exaggerating. If you truly believe that you are either entirely too dense to grasp the game's concepts or you've relegated yourself to mindless trolling.
The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state. The metagame is CONSTANTLY shifting. Heroes come and go in the competitive scene and there's players and teams innovating the game still to this day. Just this morning I watched a 20 minute game between M5 and NaVi where M5 took down a side of rax at 10 minutes following a level 1 Rosh kill. Tell me that's a typical game and I'll know to ignore you... It's idiotic to think that a game with a virtually limitless array of possible Hero combinations would lack depth. And Heroes are just a single aspect of the game. 2 teams could play the exact same lineup completely differently. Each heroes items are subject to individual preference or the strategy a team employs. DOTA is a game which I believe will never truly stagnate. DOTA has enjoyed almost 10 years of dynamic gameplay; StarCraft 2 is struggling after 2. Don't get me wrong, I love both games but to say DOTA lacks for depth? You gotta try harder than that...
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between providing evidence like the earth revolves around the sun and moba has depth evidence. One has solid evidence (I.e Eyesight,calculations of stars and the planets), the other is just what you think because of what you see and perceived. (I.e since there are many heroes there are more depth when you mix their skills and such) You have loop holes in your theory which isn't back up by solid facts and that is not the same as solid evidence.
Its fine defending Moba, I enjoy Dota2 and LoL, but don't try and make your reasoning look as if its undeniable proof when there is a lot of space for debates.
Looks like some solid steps in the right direction, the addition of racial and map stats is long overdue and good to see. It also looks like there is some sort of in game leveling system based on the party chat profiles, that holds some promise if executed properly. The addition of unranked games is cool too, let people play and improve without the fear of screwing up their ladder ranking.
No mention of clan support is disappointing though.
Looks like some solid steps in the right direction, the addition of racial and map stats is long overdue and good to see. It also looks like there is some sort of in game leveling system based on the party chat profiles, that holds some promise if executed properly. The addition of unranked games is cool too, let people play and improve without the fear of screwing up their ladder ranking.
No mention of clan support is disappointing though.
Clan support is one of the major fuck ups of WoL. I mean, 2 years since launch!? Wtf were they thinking to say they would implement it and not do it for 2 years.
On October 19 2012 10:47 SupLilSon wrote: People saying MOBAs have no depth are about as ignorant as people who deny Evolution or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun. I'm not even exaggerating. If you truly believe that you are either entirely too dense to grasp the game's concepts or you've relegated yourself to mindless trolling.
The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state. The metagame is CONSTANTLY shifting. Heroes come and go in the competitive scene and there's players and teams innovating the game still to this day. Just this morning I watched a 20 minute game between M5 and NaVi where M5 took down a side of rax at 10 minutes following a level 1 Rosh kill. Tell me that's a typical game and I'll know to ignore you... It's idiotic to think that a game with a virtually limitless array of possible Hero combinations would lack depth. And Heroes are just a single aspect of the game. 2 teams could play the exact same lineup completely differently. Each heroes items are subject to individual preference or the strategy a team employs. DOTA is a game which I believe will never truly stagnate. DOTA has enjoyed almost 10 years of dynamic gameplay; StarCraft 2 is struggling after 2. Don't get me wrong, I love both games but to say DOTA lacks for depth? You gotta try harder than that...
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between providing evidence like the earth revolves around the sun and moba has depth evidence. One has solid evidence (I.e Eyesight,calculations of stars and the planets), the other is just what you think because of what you see and perceived. (I.e since there are many heroes there are more depth when you mix their skills and such) You have loop holes in your theory which isn't back up by solid facts and that is not the same as solid evidence.
Its fine defending Moba, I enjoy Dota2 and LoL, but don't try and make your reasoning look as if its undeniable proof when there is a lot of space for debates.
You clearly haven't followed DOTA and haven't invested any time into researching it's history. It's not an opinion. The FACT is the metagame of DOTA/DOTA2 has seen shittons of change throughout the years and it's STILL CHANGING. These are elements we can clearly observe and track. Where are you getting the idea that this is perception and not reality? Tune into SL3 and the solid evidence will be right under your nose buddy.
On October 19 2012 10:47 SupLilSon wrote: People saying MOBAs have no depth are about as ignorant as people who deny Evolution or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun. I'm not even exaggerating. If you truly believe that you are either entirely too dense to grasp the game's concepts or you've relegated yourself to mindless trolling.
The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state. The metagame is CONSTANTLY shifting. Heroes come and go in the competitive scene and there's players and teams innovating the game still to this day. Just this morning I watched a 20 minute game between M5 and NaVi where M5 took down a side of rax at 10 minutes following a level 1 Rosh kill. Tell me that's a typical game and I'll know to ignore you... It's idiotic to think that a game with a virtually limitless array of possible Hero combinations would lack depth. And Heroes are just a single aspect of the game. 2 teams could play the exact same lineup completely differently. Each heroes items are subject to individual preference or the strategy a team employs. DOTA is a game which I believe will never truly stagnate. DOTA has enjoyed almost 10 years of dynamic gameplay; StarCraft 2 is struggling after 2. Don't get me wrong, I love both games but to say DOTA lacks for depth? You gotta try harder than that...
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between providing evidence like the earth revolves around the sun and moba has depth evidence. One has solid evidence (I.e Eyesight,calculations of stars and the planets), the other is just what you think because of what you see and perceived. (I.e since there are many heroes there are more depth when you mix their skills and such) You have loop holes in your theory which isn't back up by solid facts and that is not the same as solid evidence.
Its fine defending Moba, I enjoy Dota2 and LoL, but don't try and make your reasoning look as if its undeniable proof when there is a lot of space for debates.
You clearly haven't followed DOTA and haven't invested any time into researching it's history. It's not an opinion. The FACT is the metagame of DOTA/DOTA2 has seen shittons of change throughout the years and it's STILL CHANGING. These are elements we can clearly observe and track. Where are you getting the idea that this is perception and not reality? Tune into SL3 and the solid evidence will be right under your nose buddy.
Again, you are just being aggressive with your ideology. You might want to chill out and realise I am actually agreeing dota is a deep game. But your opinions are not facts, they are mere bias opinions to make the game you play look good. Once again, I agree dota is a deep game but what you said are opinions, not facts. Chill out on the anger before you kill a animal.
Edit: Using sc2 with your evidence. Its like saying sc2 has infinite depth because there is a number of possibilities of mixing up different numbers of units hence the game is different. Like instead of 50 marines and 8 medivacs, you have 40 marines and 10 medivacs and that makes it deeper so your evidence contradicts what you say if you apply it to sc2 when you said and I quote
"The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state"
Those are your words hence you just blow your own supposed "evidence."
Too many tournaments, which devalue the tournament scene. MLG anaheim had 3 tournaments in one (REGULAR MLG, KESPA INVITATIONAL, WCS).
Some months had like 3-4 major events, this is too much. That would be like tennis having 4 grand slams a month. This makes grands slams less hype.
Blizzard NEEDS to take control of the tourney scene.
Have something like a 9 month regular season with the 10th month being the championship
each month in the regular season will have several REGIONAL Events (think the continental WCS Events) that feed into a MAJOR (WORLD) Event every 2 months. Then the last month (The championship) will have the biggest prize pool.
Basically expand even more on the WCS ideas while utilizing orgs/companies like MLG, Dreamhack, ASUS, IEM, ect ect to host the regional and Major events. But actually have the orgs/companies only host 1 tournament. not 3 tournaments at one place.
Mockup for BLIZZARD SC2 WORLD TOUR 2013 Feb 1st Weekend - NA Regional (MLG HOST) 2nd Weekend - EU Regional (Dreamhack HOST) 3rd Weekend - ASIA Regional (IEM HOST) 4th Weekend - PAC Regional (ACL HOST) and SA Regional (IEM HOST)
March 2nd Weekend - MAJOR #1 (IPL HOST)
April 1st Weekend - EU Regional (IEM HOST) 2nd Weekend - ASIA Regional (CPL HOST) 3rd Weekend - NA Regional (IPL HOST) 4th Weekend - PAC Regional (IEM HOST)
ect ect ect for the next 7 months
players gain points, blah blah to get to that grand final (Blizzard joining the Million dollar prize pool event club!)
Fix the game, make it fun for the people that aren't going to be competing.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
On one level, the panic and distress is groupthink. On another level, clearly there must have been an underlying problem that has been brooding for a long period of time. Now that the floodgates are open, people are starting to realize their suspicions and are voicing their concerns - concerns that should have emerged months ago.
What you said about MLG Columbus 2011... I was also there, I met ThorZaIN, my hero after TSL3, and I also remember seeing SC2 take over the whole scene by Sunday when the finals consumed the place. It feels like it was a historic moment for me, and I realize that since then SC2 has been in a slow decline for me too. But to have another Columbus 2011... I sure hope that HotS can bring that about. Your video was really insightful. Thanks.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
On one level, the panic and distress is groupthink. On another level, clearly there must have been an underlying problem that has been brooding for a long period of time. Now that the floodgates are open, people are starting to realize their suspicions and are voicing their concerns - concerns that should have emerged months ago.
Not at all, this is all a false impression of opinion. 98% of people who post on these threads are the same people who have hated the game every step of the way, it is the same people who made threads about sc2 dying during early WoL beta. These people live to vent over how the way sc2 works does not agree with their vision of it and whenever there is an incident that spawns some discontent they all come crawling out again. Sadly, the vast majority of moderately happy players who only have minor concerns about the game but are rational about it are not posting on these threads, they are playing the game, watching streams and having a life.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
On one level, the panic and distress is groupthink. On another level, clearly there must have been an underlying problem that has been brooding for a long period of time. Now that the floodgates are open, people are starting to realize their suspicions and are voicing their concerns - concerns that should have emerged months ago.
Not at all, this is all a false impression of opinion. 98% of people who post on these threads are the same people who have hated the game every step of the way, it is the same people who made threads about sc2 dying during early WoL beta. These people live to vent over how the way sc2 works does not agree with their vision of it and whenever there is an incident that spawns some discontent they all come crawling out again. Sadly, the vast majority of moderately happy players who only have minor concerns about the game but are rational about it are not posting on these threads, they are playing the game, watching streams and having a life.
An interesting argument but League is played at all the nerd hangouts I attend and is the most watched twitch event and is played by all the gamers I know where SC2 is frankly feared and just left to the elites...
And the elites could probably make more money in LoL etc...
I will buy HoTS and I think LoL is a horrible game but I know I am the minority and most RTS gamers I know play LoL or HoN and think SC2 is a dinosaur. To each their own. I love the game and HoTS will be exciting for me and most other hard core SC fans but not sure how they plan to compete in their genre as a whole with an expansion that does little to reinvigorate the base of RTS players and instead caters to just its fans...
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
On one level, the panic and distress is groupthink. On another level, clearly there must have been an underlying problem that has been brooding for a long period of time. Now that the floodgates are open, people are starting to realize their suspicions and are voicing their concerns - concerns that should have emerged months ago.
Not at all, this is all a false impression of opinion. 98% of people who post on these threads are the same people who have hated the game every step of the way, it is the same people who made threads about sc2 dying during early WoL beta. These people live to vent over how the way sc2 works does not agree with their vision of it and whenever there is an incident that spawns some discontent they all come crawling out again. Sadly, the vast majority of moderately happy players who only have minor concerns about the game but are rational about it are not posting on these threads, they are playing the game, watching streams and having a life.
An interesting argument but League is played at all the nerd hangouts I attend and is the most watched twitch event and is played by all the gamers I know where SC2 is frankly feared and just left to the elites...
And the elites could probably make more money in LoL etc...
I will buy HoTS and I think LoL is a horrible game but I know I am the minority and most RTS gamers I know play LoL or HoN and think SC2 is a dinosaur. To each their own. I love the game and HoTS will be exciting for me and most other hard core SC fans but not sure how they plan to compete in their genre as a whole with an expansion that does little to reinvigorate the base of RTS players and instead caters to just its fans...
It is a good thing then that the people you know personally are not a representable data sample. I don't doubt at all that LoL might be a more played game, but the mistake people make is thinking that player numbers = e-sports success. sc2 does in no way need to have the biggest player base to be a successful e-sports game. Hell if that was the deciding factor then why did WoW arena fail?
There are so many other aspects to make a successful e-sports game. The most important is that it needs to be possible to enjoy the game as a viewer only without playing the game. Sc2 has multiple viewers who do not play the game. I doubt LoL have the same thing to the same extent.
The SC2 crisis is a bit of a farce. And the games strategies are anything but completely stale.
Life has a different style from Nestea has a different style from DRG has a different style from Stephano MKP has a different style from MVP has a different style from Ryung has a different style from Thorzain MC has a different style from Parting has a different style from Hero has a different style from SKT's Rain
A huge majority of the top players right now have unique play-styles that have a variety of builds. I agree that perhaps maps are getting to be a bit too big resulting in 8 minutes of filler time in a majority of cases, but the game is anything but stale.
Viewer numbers on Twitch are probably just because there is professional SC2 all day every day for the last 2 years AND you can watch VOD's. GSL VOD's have a pretty consistent near 100k views and have since may of 2011. Definite stagnation, but I attribute that partly because you have to pay to watch and because of the amount that is out there.
On October 19 2012 13:56 TheRabidDeer wrote: The SC2 crisis is a bit of a farce. And the games strategies are anything but completely stale.
Life has a different style from Nestea has a different style from DRG has a different style from Stephano MKP has a different style from MVP has a different style from Ryung has a different style from Thorzain MC has a different style from Parting has a different style from Hero has a different style from SKT's Rain
A huge majority of the top players right now have unique play-styles that have a variety of builds. I agree that perhaps maps are getting to be a bit too big resulting in 8 minutes of filler time in a majority of cases, but the game is anything but stale.
Viewer numbers on Twitch are probably just because there is professional SC2 all day every day for the last 2 years AND you can watch VOD's. GSL VOD's have a pretty consistent near 100k views and have since may of 2011. Definite stagnation, but I attribute that partly because you have to pay to watch and because of the amount that is out there.
Yes the only relevant data when it comes to viewers would be to be able to see data of total individual viewers of anything over a month. Since sc2 has so many events the numbers will get diluted by some people only watching IPL, some only watching NASL etc.
I think the biggest danger to the SC2 scene is the development team themselves.. I have noticed from watching progamers and going through the forums is a frustration with the "I'm right, you're wrong" implied by their actions (or inaction). As simple of an explanation it may be, I feel that pride has a lot to do with it, because a lack of resources certainly has nothing to do with it. It takes an enormous, almost insurmountable level of maturity and humility to acknowledge that one's own ideas are impractical or stupid, and the success of SC2's launch did little to stem these guy's egos.
If Starcraft pro-scene fails, I firmly believe that the development team will absolutely believe that they did everything they could and will refuse to acknowledge that they are even remotely culpable.
I might be the first to say it but I've lost my interest in the game and in the e-sports scene (it has been months since I watched an SC2 game although I still watch the 2 prominent podcasts). I'm just here to be part of the community.
On October 18 2012 14:08 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: Starcraft 2 best game in e-sports period. it's all in Blizzards court now, we can put as much pressure on them as possible but in the end it comes down to them. We just have to keep watching and giving our money to the tournements. In Blizzard we trust.
So on one side you say that "Starcraft 2 is the best game in e-sports period." and on the other side you say that "it's all in Blizzard's court now"? Only one can be true, because if Starcraft really was that good as you claim Blizzard wouldnt need to act and if they need to act the game shouldnt be "the best".
Choose!
There are structural flaws in the game AND in the UI which limit its potential.
1. The structural flaws within the game are pretty big, but many of them can be attributed to "advancement in technology" (the usual axcuse), but they totally disregard the fact that limitations are always a chance to become creative AND the fact that "advancements in technology" can go too far for a human to cope/compete with. An example from the real world would be computer programs which do split-second trading on the stock market without any interaction from humans. Basically it boild down to: There is no "room for error" in SC2 due to tightly packed balls of armies and "perfect" unit movement and the super high speed of the game due to fast reproduction of units and lack of solid defensive structures. Just compare a bunker in BW with a bunker in SC2 BW: 350 health, 1 armor SC2: 400 health, 1 armor Now compare that with the amount of attacking units you have in each games PER AREA and you notice that there will be a lot more of them in SC2 (for ranged units) due to the mechanics mentioned above.
This makes it perfectly clear that SC2 is a very very very aggressive game with no defenders advantage intended.
Another "structural flaw" is the differently weighed production speed boosts for the three races, which basically pushes players into producing units of type X a lot more, because they are easier to reproduce (after some losses in a battle), because the opponent will be doing his best to remax ASAP and would overrun you if you dont have an equal number of units FAST. This is a major reason why mech isnt viable, because the core units can only be reproduced rather slowly.
This also makes it perfectly clear that SC2 is all about SPEED and AGGRESSION. In a sense it has become a "real time action game" (RTA) instead of a "real time strategy game" (RTS). Tactical play has been "advanced out" of the game and that is terrible, even though they put in things like the Nydus Worm and a Terran Building Armor upgrade to actually promote things like this. Sadly that isnt enough, because they dont understand the "dps from a tight mass of units" problem.
2. The flaws in the UI have been moaned about and ignored by Blizzard ever since the beginning. The only thing the community achieved was to stop Blizzard from merging the UI too much with Facebook (for free advertising for them). That was only the smallest problem.
Things definitely seem like they are going in the right direction but this drama is killer. I think people hate to much on Dota and LoL. Games can co-exist. I hope the best for LoL and Dota. I love the tournament scene. It is hard to follow and with all the tournaments going on I do fail to see the importance of certain tournaments with all the things going on. Even the GSL seems not AS important as it really is. I hope things get better. And they will
The scene and the people working in it can only do so much. It's up to Blizzard to stop their ham-fisted approach to balancing the game and fix design flaws, add essential features, and generally make the game more fun to play and watch. The biggest misstep in their design philosophy was to create SC2 with esports in mind. Instead of just creating a fun game that could be played competitively via players developing strategies and tactics, and with a little help from Blizzard now and then, they've created a game that is too set in its mould. I still cannot believe they didn't foresee how following a rigid counter system would quickly turn the game stale.
I was hoping the release of HOTS might herald a fresh start, but it seems like Blizzard is just content with adding some frosting on top of WoL for their first expansion. Frankly, I don't think they have the resources nor the inclination to do what needs to be done. That or they still don't have a clue.
You know what killed the game? People crying about orb and destiny and stephano. People running to sponsors after everything. MoW house drama that everybody jumps on. Slayers drama that everybody jumps on.
There are too many tournaments, too much drama and I'm not paying to watch what is likely going to be a shitty game. Once they put streams behind a paywall they effectively killed the game. The only way a game can survive is from the casual players keeping interest in the game.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME HAS TO BE EZPZ TO APPEAL TO THEM. This just means you don't alienate them, but you show them high level play with good commentary so they can continue playing and wishing they could be that good. You know how many bad players are on LoL right now because of the finals that just happened getting people interested in the game again? If you give people a good game to spectate (easy to understand // distinguish), make it free for them to watch, they will continue to be interested in it.
Sponsors are only interested when people watch. Why create obstacles to people watching? Then, why does the community that does stick around drive the sponsors away? Unless you have a model where people are okay with repeatedly paying money, then sponsors are the only way your game can stay afloat.
frankly I wouldn't make such a big deal about SC2 players switching to LoL. LoL is just more lucrative for them because the elephants have arrived and will be stealing all their money. The only Sc2 players that stand a chance are the former elephants.
I seem to remember the european finals recently having 100k viewers.I agree with your points and I worry a bit too, but in no way do I think all these negative loaded posts like "starcraft 2 crisis" and this is whats wrong with "sc2" is gonna give blizzard any further incentive to invest into esports. So lighten up people.
i think from the start blizzard was way too afraid to try out new things in starcraft 2. they did that in war 3 and it didnt work for the most part, and starcraft 2 was supposed to be the back-to-the-roots game
apart from some obvious and unforgivable design flaws in the interface (no chat channels, no lan), the game itself was never designed to really transcend its predecessor. we are still stuck with three tiers, limited tech option, a single best standard build being repeated over and over ad nauseam
basically blizzard as a whole lost their vision to actually create new stuff, something that could already be seen with the abomination that is diablo 3. there is no innovation, just the attempt to create past glory
what starcraft would need is way more variety, more units, more tech options, more depth. maybe even more races or at least sub-factions with more variety
they were too scared to do that because they probably thought it would be too hard to balance, when they should have let the community balance the game from the start. limiting game balance patches to once a month, done by clueless people afraid to change much lead to the (maybe) balanced but boring, repetitive and dead metagame we have today
they should have included the community much more in every decision instead of sticking with some fat c&c designer with an inflated ego that wanted to see his vision of how RTS should work come true
I've just watched the video and I must say I'm impressed. You have told EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT of mine. I 10000% agree with everything you've said. Finally intelligent people with enough game knowledge, who played Blizzard's older games and who can think before posting some mindless Blizzard fan-boy comments. Thank you. I really hope this will have some effect on people who read this. On Blizzard probably not, because this is not the company which cares, like 5 years ago. Now it's just a big capitalistic centre which controls big part of gaming industry. With companies like Blizzard or Microsoft, this is what we have to look forward too. I mean 6 years or more of the same hardware (Xbox 360) is just unacceptable. Graphics updating have stopped because of it.
team games and casual games will always be more lucrative and can potentially attract more viewers, that's just how it is. RTS has been a dying genre since the early 2000s as teams and more casual genre like rts, rpg/mmo, moba gets more and more popular
Also last I check those who attends MLG are still majority sc2 fans, by far. Your example really only applies to IEM, which might as well say they got bought out by riot
On October 19 2012 19:19 summerloud wrote: apart from some obvious and unforgivable design flaws in the interface (no chat channels, no lan), the game itself was never designed to really transcend its predecessor. we are still stuck with three tiers, limited tech option, a single best standard build being repeated over and over ad nauseam
I can't even begin to describe how completely wrong this is and how utterly it fails to describe a highly complex and well designed game known as Brood War. Suggesting that SC1 had "a single best standard build being repeated over and over" is sheer ignorance. BW had a complex metagame, with multiple builds and variations of builds that were constantly being reworked, changed, and challenged. And even if you played a bad BO match up there was a possibility to micro or multitask extremely well and make a comeback.
On October 19 2012 19:19 summerloud wrote: they should have included the community much more in every decision instead of sticking with some fat c&c designer with an inflated ego that wanted to see his vision of how RTS should work come true
^this. I completely agree. It's like the developers didn't want to use anything from BW or at least make everything completely different so they could never be accused of copying. It's just so stupid. I don't think anyone (or at least hardly anyone) wanted a BW clone with better graphics. I think the idea of creating a new game is great. But why on the world would you start completely from scratch and eliminate so much of what made BW great. It's either stupid or arrogant, maybe a combination of both. I keep hoping the expansions will change things, or Kespa players will figure out how to transcend the weak design, but I feel like I'm losing confidence all the time. Unless the developers have a radical change of mind or we get new ones I'm not sure that things are going to get better. Which is a shame because even with such a flawed game SC2 is still better than any other RTS games released recently.
On October 19 2012 16:41 czylu wrote: frankly I wouldn't make such a big deal about SC2 players switching to LoL. LoL is just more lucrative for them because the elephants have arrived and will be stealing all their money. The only Sc2 players that stand a chance are the former elephants.
"What we've got here is failure to communicate Blizzard you just can't reach... So, you get what we had here last week Which is the way they want it! Well, they get it! N' I don't like it any more than you men"
this is ridiculous... the top 9 threads in this forum at the moment are something negative with sc2, something to do with the slayers debacle, and/or talking about a crisis in sc2....
On October 20 2012 03:50 amazingoopah wrote: this is ridiculous... the top 9 threads in this forum at the moment are something negative with sc2, something to do with the slayers debacle, and/or talking about a crisis in sc2....
Nothing new, I deteced myself "what the hell happened with sc2, everything is incredibly wrong with sc2" two weeks ago. Those 9 threads comes two weeks later than my notice about sc2.
On October 20 2012 03:50 amazingoopah wrote: this is ridiculous... the top 9 threads in this forum at the moment are something negative with sc2, something to do with the slayers debacle, and/or talking about a crisis in sc2....
maybe because this game became a joke and people want a change because this is the only rts we have got nowdays?
On October 20 2012 03:50 amazingoopah wrote: this is ridiculous... the top 9 threads in this forum at the moment are something negative with sc2, something to do with the slayers debacle, and/or talking about a crisis in sc2....
Nothing new, I deteced myself "what the hell happened with sc2, everything is incredibly wrong with sc2" two weeks ago. Those 9 threads comes two weeks later than my notice about sc2.
Yea, tons of people have been thinking it, it's just been kinda taboo to actually talk about it on TL until Destiny/TT1 pretty much came and blew the lid off.
On October 20 2012 03:50 amazingoopah wrote: this is ridiculous... the top 9 threads in this forum at the moment are something negative with sc2, something to do with the slayers debacle, and/or talking about a crisis in sc2....
HotS is in beta and Blizzard are looking for feedback.
I'm a former Wc3 player and me and my grandmaster mate are the only people to play SC2 until now. All our Wc3 friends did not bother buying SC2 or do not play it by any means.
In my opinion it's blizzard, who makes SC2 less attractive than LoL, DotA2 and BW. We need either a total simple HotS which is fucking easy to adept, but still hard to master or we need all those things that the community wants to add to the game. Balance is excluded of course!
On October 20 2012 03:50 amazingoopah wrote: this is ridiculous... the top 9 threads in this forum at the moment are something negative with sc2, something to do with the slayers debacle, and/or talking about a crisis in sc2....
HotS is in beta and Blizzard are looking for feedback.
This is the best time for change.
I'd like to have faith in your faith but from my experience Blizzard aren't interested. I can only assume that's due to not enough $$ signs. Big fundamental changes would require large capital and Blizzard as a part of Activision are now interested in the biggest bang for smallest buck. Capital amounts would be small for what Blizzard can afford but Activision or whoever is pulling the shots are skinflints. They have a game that works, hots will sell well regardless. There is seemingly little reason for more investment.
On October 20 2012 03:38 Monochromatic wrote: I believe that it is fairly obvious that patch 1.4.3's balance update was a huge reason in the decline of viewers.
Couldn't tournaments play on patch 1.4.3 to get more viewers back?
lol. i believe it is fairly obvious you are wrong. THis decline was unavoidable, and no "minor" patch could change this. ANy avoidance of a decline would ahve required a completely new business model of Sc2 from blizzards point of view.
On October 20 2012 03:38 Monochromatic wrote: I believe that it is fairly obvious that patch 1.4.3's balance update was a huge reason in the decline of viewers.
Couldn't tournaments play on patch 1.4.3 to get more viewers back?
Its not the patch, its not about balance. Viewers don't watch balance in games, they watch players play games. if a game is not exciting to watch, then it why would anyone be interested. Collosus vs collosus is boring. Z v P is boring, T v P is boring,. The whole game needs a rework to not only look interesting but play interesting to attract people.
Columbus 2011 sure made future look bright and exciting didn't it? But something just didn't feel right when Teamliquid, THE PREMIERE Starcraft website, decided to add Dota 2.
Oh another one of these, I wonder if the discussions will be exactly the same... Why not just make a giant thread called "The Death of SC" and compile all the comments from all these god damn threads in that one so they don't have to be the most commented every f'ing day.
Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items.
Where did this come from? OP seems to add in dota2 for no apparent reason with the exception of belittling it in comparison to lol.
If you actually watched the video, or read the entire thing I don't knock Dota2 at all. In fact I praise it's ui and the steps Dota2 is taking to promote sponsors in game with a robust feature set. Obvious lack of Dota knowledge from me is obvious. Dota changes in ways much more subtle than LoL does, that's not a negative thing and that's what I meant by the Dota is Dota comment.
For all the negative stuff coming out, I've been actively talking about how SC2 needs to change in a big way for awhile now. Just felt the timing was right to make a fully fledged post/video about it.
It seems like Blizzard might just be listening though, with the delay on the balance patch and the recent reveal of HoTS ui changes there's still lots of hope.
On October 22 2012 06:35 nkr wrote: idno, playing hots gives me anything but hope :s thank god its still beta
There are kernels of solutions in HotS but it needs much more refinement. For example I think the Tempest, properly balanced, will be a godsend in PvP and PvZ lategame, and things like the Viper and widow mine will help a lot to punish deathball play. We need more of that.
Valve and Dota2 can't change the game. Dota is Dota, you can't try to copy LoL and add in tons of new Heros and items.
Where did this come from? OP seems to add in dota2 for no apparent reason with the exception of belittling it in comparison to lol.
If you actually watched the video, or read the entire thing I don't knock Dota2 at all. In fact I praise it's ui and the steps Dota2 is taking to promote sponsors in game with a robust feature set. Obvious lack of Dota knowledge from me is obvious. Dota changes in ways much more subtle than LoL does, that's not a negative thing and that's what I meant by the Dota is Dota comment.
For all the negative stuff coming out, I've been actively talking about how SC2 needs to change in a big way for awhile now. Just felt the timing was right to make a fully fledged post/video about it.
It seems like Blizzard might just be listening though, with the delay on the balance patch and the recent reveal of HoTS ui changes there's still lots of hope.
Dota changes aren't exactly subtle...... unless you can call heroes whom are never picked/banned become top hero picks in all games subtle (ex: jakiro/batrider). Blizzard barely even touches the meta-game let alone forces a change upon it. DotA actively promotes metagame changes and seems to even be actively encouraging "spectator" heroes by massively buffing them like the batrider which I personally think can only be good for e-sports as a whole.
p.s. Watched Sc2 for 2 years and switched to dota about 2 months ago. Sad to say, but I've enjoyed watching dota way more than sc2 despite never having played/installed dota2.
Honestly the LoL/DotA2 UI are miles ahead of B.net in terms of accessibility and versatility that by the time Blizzard rehashed it to be at the current LoL/DotA2's level, they will be even further away.
Instead Blizzard should address more on the gameplay issues because that's going to to be existence for a long time.
You talk about a few things and cover them well, but Destiny *AGAIN* has to be quoted and it has to be hammered down that such pointless features such as clan tags, custom chat, team logo and such are absolutely pointless for your average casual player who is not basing what he/she is going to play and follow on these things. The reason the hardcore and pro's complain about these things is because they are simply too "close" to the game, it is the things that bother them but in overall scheme of things will not sell a single copy of SC2 anywhere in the world.
Its like if some music snob was whining about the guitar riff on that newest LMFAO song, that it came from a computer and therefore sucks, it is a minor nerd like detail that majority of people dont give a shit about they just wanna listen to music in a club, real, authentic, phony, does not matter.
How ironic that this very community chased off the "noobs" and even vouched for TL to make a "pro" only forum like ArenaJunkies for WoW over a year ago, remember that one guys? And now what this community needs the most is someone from the outside to give you a honest look on this game, it is the same thing Brood War players and fans had to realize.
What was once a annoying voice you wished away "omg all these noobs came with SC2 ffs" are the very people you desperately need now.
Your most important part is the last, where you address what people on TL and reddit talk about, how some are leaving, team disbanding etc. Basically everyone had their mouth shut for a while and finally the cards started falling, one after another. It was clear months ago that viewership for tournaments and streams was down by more than 20-30%, what once had 60k viewers could barely get 30-35k.
FWIW I'm about ready to quit SC2, every game players will just turtle until they finish their deathball, the first 15 minutes it's like you're playing SimCity. Then there's 1 battle and the game is over because as several Brood War pros have noted it's really difficult to come from behind in SC2.
I blame the current map pool. It's basically impossible to punish turtles anymore. Typically in Brood War third bases were never as sheltered as they are in today's map pool. Also most of the current maps are large making the defender's advantage even greater so pre-maxed attacks are too risky. I could go on but basically there is no early or mid game once you get past platinum league and I refuse to spend 90% of my playing time repeating the same builds ad nauseum without any action.
I really love TL drama, for some reason nothing beats it. Maybe its so exciting because I feel like I'm a part of it. But anyway in my opinion SC2 will become less and less popular, until there is only a hardcore following. I don't think it will be the end of SC2...it will just remain as a small niche following while League of Legends becomes the future of e-sports, hopefully with a number of other games supported by other companies. I'm really excited for the future. There will be another RTS, a better RTS...along with a host of other games. Things are only getting better, I don't see why SC2 has to be the only important game. This tunnel vision is unnecessary; yes Blizzard was a big deal in the past. Well giants fall, it happens all the time. Lets just move on!
We don't have to suffer through the atrocious writing of SC2 compared to the original Starcraft...there must be dozens, hundreds of better games that don't hire hollywood script writers. I can't wait to play those games, and watch *those* games on TL, rather than constantly be forced to believe that only Blizzard is capable of delivering a good quality game. I think its just a matter of finding them...but also I wonder if RTS is really meant to be a niche community. There's nothing really wrong with that; it could at least piggyback on the success of other gaming platforms and give us a great viewing experience.
If SC2 design team were a roman empire... ...this is how gladiator fights would look like: 1) Gladiator A starts with a sword and gladiator B with his bare hands and a shield for some defense. 2) If gladiator B is still alive after 10 minutes, the emperor will throw some new tools at him: an axe, a trident and a casting net, so he can have some fun. 3) After 10 more minutes, gladiator A will be given 10 lions and gladiator B a bucket of water and a bottle of poison and hope the lions are feeling thirsty.
Then when gladiators complained that the fight is imbalanced, the emperor would say it's not because somehow gladiator A wins 50% of the time and gladiator B another 50%. He would also go to bed feeling very smart because he achieved asymmetrical balance and would be completely oblivious to the very simple fact that it's possible to give the gladiators different tools with different feels and still have a fair fight at all moments.
All SC2 players, understand this: This game is badly designed. The frustration we all feel as players and constant QQing in the forums is NOT a colective paranoia. The game is filled with timings where one race has temporary unfair advantages. All races are UP at some point in the match-ups and it's not nice being that gladiator fighting with bare hands and trying to run away or hide until better weapons arrive.
We need to make a stand and demand the game we all deserve for the money we paid. Winrates mean NOTHING at all to how fair the game is, so don't accept that argument ever again.
I had high hopes that Blizzard would completely redesign the game in HotS, but after what I saw so far, I can only be very concerned about the game's future as well. It's like their living in denial.
Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Less whine More action
Also, showing videos and visual proof of how the game is better using this mod will attract more people.
This is a pointless whine thread. Every game would start to decline after a few years after release with a few exceptions where other factors besides game quality kicked in. QQing about a natural process without bringing up any specific points like balance, game design etc. is useless.
On October 22 2012 08:40 Cheerio wrote: This is a pointless whine thread. Every game would start to decline after a few years after release with a few exceptions where other factors besides game quality kicked in. QQing about a natural process without bringing up any specific points like balance, game design etc. is useless.
What's pointless is closing your eyes to an obvious reality and living in denial like Blizzard does. SC2 supposedly has 2 more expansions ahead!!! Remember that?
Because the OP clearly has that in mind. Blizzard needs to open their eyes to threads like this and absolutely act NOW. The game IS dying rather quickly.
Only reason I'm not extremely concerned is because I know their comercial goal will kick in sooner or later and speak higher then their pride and refusal to admit all the mistakes they've done.
There are millions of threads with suggestions and pointint out the problems. Blizzard can't complain about lack of feedback from the community.
Them and only them are the ones who need to act!! So stop acting like everything is normal. We should all push them into making an amazing HotS with radical changes from WoL flawed design.
On October 22 2012 08:40 Cheerio wrote: This is a pointless whine thread. Every game would start to decline after a few years after release with a few exceptions where other factors besides game quality kicked in. QQing about a natural process without bringing up any specific points like balance, game design etc. is useless.
What's pointless is closing your eyes to an obvious reality and living in denial like Blizzard does. SC2 supposedly has 2 more expansions ahead!!! Remember that?
Because the OP clearly has that in mind. Blizzard needs to open their eyes to threads like this and absolutely act NOW. The game IS dying rather quickly.
Only reason I'm not extremely concerned is because I know their comercial goal will kick in sooner or later and speak higher then their pride and refusal to admit all the mistakes they've done.
There are millions of threads with suggestions and pointint out the problems. Blizzard can't complain about lack of feedback from the community.
Them and only them are the ones who need to act!! So stop acting like everything is normal. We should all push them into making an amazing HotS with radical changes from WoL flawed design.
Its a race against time. In 2 expansions, LoL and or other game might take over entirely the scene and Blizzard will have no chance of breaking into the market again. They need to act, and they need to do it quickly.
SC2 is the worst game ever. If the community is as retarded as it is with all these dumb threads popping up, I see no real reason to define SC2 as a good RTS game.
SC never had this crap. WC3 also never had this crap. Yet all these nerds on SC2 seem hellbent on ruining the game and ruining the experience for other people... Yet they scream "ESPORTS ESPORTS" and expect to be taken seriously?
Its like MW3: The game was good although it had its flaws. But in the end, it was the PLAYERS who ruined the game. Same thing that is happening here.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
Just one team you say? It was Slayers, the most well established team in the begining of 2012 with large sponsors like Intel, Razer, and Pocari Sweat to name a few, and now they're gone. Note that SC2 teams cost more to run than LoL teams (believe it or not) and the profit you pull in is less than what you would get in investing in a MobA game. There aren't many SC2 KR teams now, which means less players playing, less viewers wanting to watch because their favorite player retired, and less sponsorship and less of an incentive for businesses to inject money into the scene.
The scene has been in a steady decline I'd say since the start of 2012, with player counts from NA falling from a good 1 mill down to a mere 300k in mid 2012 and now probably around 100k active ladder players. It is not an accurate representation of how many total active members there are on the scene, but it shows you that people are caring less and less about SC2 while numbers for LoL are skyrocketing and numbers for DotA are still on the rise (by viewership, DotA has higher viewer count, especially in china). LoL is picking up in korea and its becoming the next SC:BW, a spot in which SC2 failed to fulfill and DotA 2 is picking up around china and SEA, which is where they traditionally dominated. Shootmania is also growing steadily too, with the growing numbers of former quake players trying it out and the fighting game scene is growing too.
Honestly, we're pretty close to dead now, we're almost as good as goners. Blizzard continues to neglect the community, the community neglects the players, and this is just going to go downhill from here.
Most pros made money from SC2 so they have no regrets. As for casuals, yeah, it was anticipated that even easier game would be the bane of SC2. BW fans knew that all along since 2010.
Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
On October 22 2012 08:32 mishimaBeef wrote: Sorry but how hard is it to create a mod with some of the changes we as a community want? ... If the changes are THAT SMART... then lets do them and people will be like "oh obviously this version is better"
Less whine More action
Also, showing videos and visual proof of how the game is better using this mod will attract more people.
There was a change and video a while ago where they took the delay of attack away from stalkers' initial attack, so they attacked instantly like marines. It was amazingly better, and promoted way better micro, but it didn't change anything else, if you a-move a stalker it still has the same attack speed. I wish blizzard would implement that change
On October 22 2012 10:31 VanGarde wrote: Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
bw "was" way less casual friendly.. yet there are tons of people enjoying it on a daily basis just hanging around in the D - C ranks of iCCup, so really... That's hardly an argument. Especially when you want to involve Korean players.
"Get over yourselves", I don't need to, everyone's entitled to their own opinion and in the end all my comment contained was my own opinion, nothing more nothing less, so I think you might want to calm your tits.
On October 22 2012 10:37 Premier wrote: Yet another thread heralding the doomsday. Classic.
These things go through a cycle, expansion and contraction. First you expand, then things will start to slow down, then itll pick back up.
Yeah, i mean just look at ESEA poll thread, 20k people voting for SC2 in a matter of hours, getting pretty close to beat Lol on a quantity game (which we all thought would be the favorite terrain for LoL). The game got the necessary pull. It's a matter of little things that will be figured out someday. The game is not even complete yet and is only a few years old. We should all chill down and let time go by before making any call. I think it's pretty bold to call a game who can rally 20k+ in a matter of hours dead.
On October 22 2012 10:31 VanGarde wrote: Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
To repudiate, 95% of BW players didn't even try out the competitive 1 vs 1 of pros but have obtain the fondest memory of the game from BGH, Fastest, Aeon of Strife and etc. So the 5% of the minor group remained competitive. In any case, it is more casual friendly because of its incredible gameplay that no matter what type of game mode is being played, the fun factor still remained in tact. Your tits are bulging at a faster pace than I thought.
On October 22 2012 10:31 VanGarde wrote: Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
To repudiate, 95% of BW players didn't even try out the competitive 1 vs 1 of pros but have obtain the fondest memory of the game from BGH, Fastest, Aeon of Strife and etc. So the 5% of the minor group remained competitive. In any case, it is more casual friendly because of its incredible gameplay that no matter what type of game mode is being played, the fun factor still remained in tact. Your tits are bulging at a faster pace than I thought.
Got numbers to back up that Broodwar was bigger than sc2 because it was more casual friendly? Because that might just be the dumbest statement that has so far come out of you. BW was a niche game in the west, half the people who did play BGH etc didn't even know there existed a pro scene. But there is no point in arguing with the bw fanboy trolls who only come to these threads to spread their vile poison because all they want is for sc2 to fail miserably, and anything will be used as an argument to prove how you were all amazing prophets about the death of the game.
Sc2 is doing fine and is going to be a bigger e-sport in the long run than broodwar ever was, and you are going to waste all of those years on being angry about it. Atleast that is something.
On October 22 2012 10:31 VanGarde wrote: Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
To repudiate, 95% of BW players didn't even try out the competitive 1 vs 1 of pros but have obtain the fondest memory of the game from BGH, Fastest, Aeon of Strife and etc. So the 5% of the minor group remained competitive. In any case, it is more casual friendly because of its incredible gameplay that no matter what type of game mode is being played, the fun factor still remained in tact. Your tits are bulging at a faster pace than I thought.
That's one of the most commonly missed points about BW, the fact that the casual base (Including myself) played BGH and other custom games. Trying to make it easy for nearly anybody to play well on ladder is the wrong approach imo. People like to play custom games to do all the cool stuff in the game, if it's not really possible to do it yourself. Look at how many carriers/void rays etc get made in 3v3 4v4 etc, never really see them in regular games though. The game itself was really fun, the challenge was a big part of that.
On October 22 2012 10:31 VanGarde wrote: Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
To repudiate, 95% of BW players didn't even try out the competitive 1 vs 1 of pros but have obtain the fondest memory of the game from BGH, Fastest, Aeon of Strife and etc. So the 5% of the minor group remained competitive. In any case, it is more casual friendly because of its incredible gameplay that no matter what type of game mode is being played, the fun factor still remained in tact. Your tits are bulging at a faster pace than I thought.
Got numbers to back up that Broodwar was bigger than sc2 because it was more casual friendly? Because that might just be the dumbest statement that has so far come out of you. BW was a niche game in the west, half the people who did play BGH etc didn't even know there existed a pro scene. But there is no point in arguing with the bw fanboy trolls who only come to these threads to spread their vile poison because all they want is for sc2 to fail miserably, and anything will be used as an argument to prove how you were all amazing prophets about the death of the game.
Sc2 is doing fine and is going to be a bigger e-sport in the long run than broodwar ever was, and you are going to waste all of those years on being angry about it. Atleast that is something.
Honestly, if you believe people will still be playing and making a living out of sc2 10+ years from now then I really have a hard time taking you serious.
Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better.
Being angry if sc2 would create a bigger legacy than bw did? Nah, sorry, I'm not 14 years old nor is gaming that important to me to be bitter about it if that'd happen. I play the game I enjoy the most, unlike quite a few people who just followed the mass and switched to sc2 and are now regretting it.
But oh well, I think it's safe to assume you're not the kind of person who should be taken seriously seeing how you can't even formulate an argument without trying to throw cheap insults at people who just don't share the same opinion with you.
On October 22 2012 10:57 VanGarde wrote: Sc2 is doing fine and is going to be a bigger e-sport in the long run than broodwar ever was, and you are going to waste all of those years on being angry about it. Atleast that is something.
I think its safe to say that the 10 years benchmark that pro bw set will not be repeated let alone surpassed. If I were an sc2 player, I would be happy to see the scene last 5 years. Some people put their hope eggs in Blizzard basket that the release of new expansions will bring in more fresh bloods, but after seeing some of the stunts that they've pulled the last 2 years, I would be better off being ready to be seriously disappointed.
On October 22 2012 09:57 1a2aMm wrote: Should've sticked with bw from the beginning boys, just saying.
Wisest post I've read in the thread.
i don't get this. oiutside of korea how many arenas and convention centers did starcraft fill? remember day9's story about going to vegas for a qualifier and there were two people there?
and it's not like bw was having 100k people the month before wings came out. it was already in decline
On October 22 2012 10:31 VanGarde wrote: Really? How does this logic even come close to making sense to you? Bw was WAY LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY than sc2. If anything the bane of sc2 compared to LoL is that it is too hard. If sc2 is failing (which it isn't) but for a moment entertaining the idea that all of these paniced simpletons are right, then bw is an even worse alternative. Get over yourselves.
To repudiate, 95% of BW players didn't even try out the competitive 1 vs 1 of pros but have obtain the fondest memory of the game from BGH, Fastest, Aeon of Strife and etc. So the 5% of the minor group remained competitive. In any case, it is more casual friendly because of its incredible gameplay that no matter what type of game mode is being played, the fun factor still remained in tact. Your tits are bulging at a faster pace than I thought.
Got numbers to back up that Broodwar was bigger than sc2 because it was more casual friendly? Because that might just be the dumbest statement that has so far come out of you. BW was a niche game in the west, half the people who did play BGH etc didn't even know there existed a pro scene. But there is no point in arguing with the bw fanboy trolls who only come to these threads to spread their vile poison because all they want is for sc2 to fail miserably, and anything will be used as an argument to prove how you were all amazing prophets about the death of the game.
Sc2 is doing fine and is going to be a bigger e-sport in the long run than broodwar ever was, and you are going to waste all of those years on being angry about it. Atleast that is something.
Again, this person again. BW is still more popular than SC2 in Korea at its absolutely worst stage and SC2 at its golden age. This have shown in the viewership count that 25% of the males at age 16 to 20 had watched a SKT vs KT match, stadium were always full and the fact the JinAir Final had over 1 Million live view count from China.
The thing was that Blizzard murdered its Elder son and gave away its inheritance to SC2.
BW didn't need sponsorship in the beginning nor fundings from Blizzard, it grew by itself.
There are far more people that have played BW than SC2.
SC2 is not doing fine because the Korean government don't recognize as a legitemate profession by cancelling their project for those in the military doing time via disbanding AirForce ace. Team 8 still haven't got a sponsor as of late and have even made it into PlayOff whereas if a sponsorless team would get that big coverage in news in BW, sponsors would not hesitate to invest in them.
SC2 was built upon by the legacy of BW. I remember MorroW's post on TL that he should sooner forget about SC2 than BW and IdrA have voiced the same concerns on multiple occasion. Watch the latest Pro's Corner with further praise to the game.
Again read those who have tried both game rigorously and they'll express the same.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
Huh, everybody I've talked to got into SC2 because of Day[9], Tasteless and all those community personality first instead of the game. They liked Day[9] unrelentling goofiness, Tasteless' jokes, and would follow them even if they do switch up games. So with their help, MLG could have totally take off with BW progaming, DH already had BW back then.
It was literally Korea vs the World in BW. But prior the release of SC2, BW foreigner's skills were at all time high with people capable of taking games off from the TBLS. So their skills were really just like the general Korean's A-teamers. With the proper domestic infrastructure, people's motivation will shoot up.
The reason why foreigners are so unaware of the progaming scene is because of the lack of internet. There are many talented player that played in my local Internet Cafe in 1 vs 1 that had no idea a pro scene existed until I've told them. They wanted to practice hard on ICCup which I ironically told them to wait until SC2 comes out because the graphic looked pretty sick back then in comparison. I apologize for that, they were fueled up for the project too.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
nobody will want to play BW because let's face it, as great and balanced as it was, that game is antique, and more and more younger generations of gamers want to play games with fancy graphics and realistic physic engines etc. etc.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
Huh, everybody I've talked to got into SC2 because of Day[9], Tasteless and all those community personality first instead of the game. They liked Day[9] unrelentling goofiness, Tasteless' jokes, and would follow them even if they do switch up games. So with their help, MLG could have totally take off with BW progaming, DH already had BW back then.
It was literally Korea vs the World in BW. But prior the release of SC2, BW foreigner's skills were at all time high with people capable of taking games off from the TBLS. So their skills were really just like the general Korean's A-teamers. With the proper domestic infrastructure, people's motivation will shoot up.
The reason why foreigners are so unaware of the progaming scene is because of the lack of internet. There are many talented player that played in my local Internet Cafe in 1 vs 1 that had no idea a pro scene existed until I've told them. They wanted to practice hard on ICCup which I ironically told them to wait until SC2 comes out because the graphic looked pretty sick back then in comparison. I apologize for that, they were fueled up for the project too.
That will forever be speculation though, since we can never find that out. Life goes on. The funny thing is that I like bw too, I like sc2 as well, I find that both games have advantages and disadvantages. I just get really fed up with all of the people who have an agenda against either game and go into threads with the sole reason of trying to create more animosity. I would feel the same way if rabid sc2 fans had gone into the rip osl threads and gone out of their way to say "told you so! bw would get crushed by sc2".
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
Huh, everybody I've talked to got into SC2 because of Day[9], Tasteless and all those community personality first instead of the game. They liked Day[9] unrelentling goofiness, Tasteless' jokes, and would follow them even if they do switch up games. So with their help, MLG could have totally take off with BW progaming, DH already had BW back then.
It was literally Korea vs the World in BW. But prior the release of SC2, BW foreigner's skills were at all time high with people capable of taking games off from the TBLS. So their skills were really just like the general Korean's A-teamers. With the proper domestic infrastructure, people's motivation will shoot up.
The reason why foreigners are so unaware of the progaming scene is because of the lack of internet. There are many talented player that played in my local Internet Cafe in 1 vs 1 that had no idea a pro scene existed until I've told them. They wanted to practice hard on ICCup which I ironically told them to wait until SC2 comes out because the graphic looked pretty sick back then in comparison. I apologize for that, they were fueled up for the project too.
That will forever be speculation though, since we can never find that out. Life goes on. The funny thing is that I like bw too, I like sc2 as well, I find that both games have advantages and disadvantages. I just get really fed up with all of the people who have an agenda against either game and go into threads with the sole reason of trying to create more animosity. I would feel the same way if rabid sc2 fans had gone into the rip osl threads and gone out of their way to say "told you so! bw would get crushed by sc2".
Well, for me I think that SC2 have done a great job with their MBS department and that's about it. Truthfully speaking, they should really just rehash BW's graphic into a more High Definition version of it without messing its physics too much. That would attract both new and old fans because all SC2 have done is to split the community into two halves when they could have totally build on 100% of BW legacy from the get go. The korean progamers would switch on a whim the moment it comes out, Blizzard will be known as the hero that saved modern RTS genre, foreigners will still be able to compete at high level due to reason I've explained above.
Alas, Blizzard screwed that up royally. I| use to joke to my friend that what if Blizzard goes bankrupt to which he would reply "Well they can just release SC2 in Korea, and there would be no one on the street of Seoul on the next day." Every starts laughing, we cheer up and life is beautiful again. And Blizzard have even managed to mess up sales in Korea, the sanctuary of RTS gaming.
As a RTS fan, I'm disappointed. As an economical bystander, I'm shocked. As a a consumer, I'm bored. As a TLer, I'm sad to see our community to be ripped apart by this set of action.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
Huh, everybody I've talked to got into SC2 because of Day[9], Tasteless and all those community personality first instead of the game. They liked Day[9] unrelentling goofiness, Tasteless' jokes, and would follow them even if they do switch up games. So with their help, MLG could have totally take off with BW progaming, DH already had BW back then.
It was literally Korea vs the World in BW. But prior the release of SC2, BW foreigner's skills were at all time high with people capable of taking games off from the TBLS. So their skills were really just like the general Korean's A-teamers. With the proper domestic infrastructure, people's motivation will shoot up.
The reason why foreigners are so unaware of the progaming scene is because of the lack of internet. There are many talented player that played in my local Internet Cafe in 1 vs 1 that had no idea a pro scene existed until I've told them. They wanted to practice hard on ICCup which I ironically told them to wait until SC2 comes out because the graphic looked pretty sick back then in comparison. I apologize for that, they were fueled up for the project too.
You are delusional. The last significant representation of Korea vs. World in BW was the usual massacre where Flash, Jaedong and Kal lost no games to a foreigner.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
Huh, everybody I've talked to got into SC2 because of Day[9], Tasteless and all those community personality first instead of the game. They liked Day[9] unrelentling goofiness, Tasteless' jokes, and would follow them even if they do switch up games. So with their help, MLG could have totally take off with BW progaming, DH already had BW back then.
It was literally Korea vs the World in BW. But prior the release of SC2, BW foreigner's skills were at all time high with people capable of taking games off from the TBLS. So their skills were really just like the general Korean's A-teamers. With the proper domestic infrastructure, people's motivation will shoot up.
The reason why foreigners are so unaware of the progaming scene is because of the lack of internet. There are many talented player that played in my local Internet Cafe in 1 vs 1 that had no idea a pro scene existed until I've told them. They wanted to practice hard on ICCup which I ironically told them to wait until SC2 comes out because the graphic looked pretty sick back then in comparison. I apologize for that, they were fueled up for the project too.
You are delusional. The last significant representation of Korea vs. World in BW was the usual massacre where Flash, Jaedong and Kal lost no games to a foreigner.
Bisu lost to PJ, chinese gamer. Jaedong lost game to Advokate. Pretty sure that IdrA manage to take Stork into a late game PvT which CJ's coach Cho became very impressed with those play.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
As a matter of fact, I saw this thread and I had read a few comments and it just made me think of those who switched to sc2 to follow the mass and now regret it, that's why I made the comment of "should've just sticked with bw boys, just saying", it was aimed at those people, nothing more nothing less, so stop trying to justify your use of the word "trolls" as you got it completely wrong.
"Calling us trolls because we have an opinion on something that doesn't suit you? Your arguments are getting better & better."
No, I am calling you trolls because clearly you are in these threads not to actually have a discussion about Sc2 e-sports but here to bring the same old sc2 vs bw trash discussions that we had every day during beta. You are just here to try and rub it in that you were right, you were not right ofcourse because these threads are retarded overreactions and there is no death of sc2 around the corner. But that is still your agenda here, and more people need to call you out on it.
"Oh man, our game are inferior in many aspects. I guess they were right..."
Agenda.Called.Out.
Imagine, if we had only stuck to bw, we would have had 1 million in price money for western bw tournaments now and 100k viewers per tournament and really compete with LoL. I mean we did not get to that in 10 years of Broodwar but the next year was going to be the magical one where the interest exploded.
Huh, everybody I've talked to got into SC2 because of Day[9], Tasteless and all those community personality first instead of the game. They liked Day[9] unrelentling goofiness, Tasteless' jokes, and would follow them even if they do switch up games. So with their help, MLG could have totally take off with BW progaming, DH already had BW back then.
It was literally Korea vs the World in BW. But prior the release of SC2, BW foreigner's skills were at all time high with people capable of taking games off from the TBLS. So their skills were really just like the general Korean's A-teamers. With the proper domestic infrastructure, people's motivation will shoot up.
The reason why foreigners are so unaware of the progaming scene is because of the lack of internet. There are many talented player that played in my local Internet Cafe in 1 vs 1 that had no idea a pro scene existed until I've told them. They wanted to practice hard on ICCup which I ironically told them to wait until SC2 comes out because the graphic looked pretty sick back then in comparison. I apologize for that, they were fueled up for the project too.
You are delusional. The last significant representation of Korea vs. World in BW was the usual massacre where Flash, Jaedong and Kal lost no games to a foreigner.
Bisu lost to PJ, chinese gamer. Jaedong lost game to Advokate. Pretty sure that IdrA manage to take Stork into a late game PvT which CJ's coach Cho became very impressed with those play.
Facts, sans-delusion
MMA lost to Goody MC lost to Sheth DRG lost to Socke
On October 22 2012 11:01 GTPGlitch wrote: As long as the infestor exists, sc2 will never be as fun to watch as it was in 2011
Fungal is literally the worst spell i've ever seen designed, ever. of all time.
If someone can name 10 exciting vZ games since infestor spam became the meta (with infestors actually used), I will be very surprised.
thats a little off but i get the meaning
do you think the spell should be removed or would making it a slow instead be better? (either with or without damage)
It should either be
1) removed 2) reduce length of root, make it a projectile so that it can be dodged 3) Turned into something that is a lot less useful in every situation. Make the damage more specific to a single unit type or something, so that zergs don't get the urge to spam it over everything all the time and win :/
Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
I take it you haven't read his comments on this thread, because from where I'm standing, he's quite right.
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
Hey nice meeting you too, oh random stranger from the interweb.
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
I take it you haven't read his comments on this thread, because from where I'm standing, he's quite right.
stop being bitter about bw's death, its not coming back. The whole "should've stayed with broodwar" was completely hiliarious to read, consider the outside following of broodwar was abysmally small in comparison.
I don't even know how u guys aren't tired of bw vs sc2 fights. Go find a different game to immerse yourself in, stop trying to bother people who have different tastes from you or games that are clearly not designed for people like you
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
I take it you haven't read his comments on this thread, because from where I'm standing, he's quite right.
stop being bitter about bw's death, its not coming back. The whole "should've stayed with broodwar" was completely hiliarious to read, consider the outside following of broodwar was abysmally small in comparison. There is no "mass switch to sc2" consider there isn't even a sizable NA/euro BW fanbase in the first place
That's where you are being ignorant. Half of the guys in High School either plays CS or BW at the school computers over here.
And stop shooting yourself in the foot when evidence is being displayed with massive amount of foreigners switch to SC2 from the beta, Day9, IdrA, InControl, Infernal, Machine, Ret, Sen, White-ra all switched because of the initial boost in monetary price from Blizzard.
And hey BW is still here with SSL having way higher quality of gameplay than any GSL games I've seen. As matter of fact, I am never more happier than the BW scene as we are truly one unite legion of players. You are just plainly mad because you couldn't experience BW because of your close mind-ness.
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
I take it you haven't read his comments on this thread, because from where I'm standing, he's quite right.
stop being bitter about bw's death, its not coming back. The whole "should've stayed with broodwar" was completely hiliarious to read, consider the outside following of broodwar was abysmally small in comparison.
I don't even know how u guys aren't tired of bw vs sc2 fights. Go find a different game to immerse yourself in, stop trying to bother people who have different tastes from you or games that are clearly not designed for people like you
It's just human nature to piss on the grave of your mother's murderer bro. And give the killer of your enemy a pat on the back. Go LoL!
EDIT: Although I will admit, things are looking bright for SC2's future in Korea where it matters most (not even being sarcastic here):
"ESF has lost too much creditability already that damage control is already past the point of zone where things can be salvaged. As things are headed people are more likely to embrace Kespa taking control of the scene."
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
I take it you haven't read his comments on this thread, because from where I'm standing, he's quite right.
stop being bitter about bw's death, its not coming back. The whole "should've stayed with broodwar" was completely hiliarious to read, consider the outside following of broodwar was abysmally small in comparison. There is no "mass switch to sc2" consider there isn't even a sizable NA/euro BW fanbase in the first place
I'm not even close to being bitter so please, stop acting like you're some kind of mind reading wizard.
1) I hardly play games in general nowadays + I hardly even read anything gaming related as I just don't care, I got way better things to do most of the time. 2) I don't care about bw dying nor do I care about sc2 still being alive, in fact I'm happy it is, for those who do play it. 3) It's hilarious* not hiliarious.
So please, for once, stop spouting the silly "stop being bitter" comments as you're nowhere close and you're just making yourself look like an utter tool.
Have a nice day.
edit: oh, nice edit right there lad, "I don't even know how u guys aren't tired of bw vs sc2 fights. Go find a different game to immerse yourself in, stop trying to bother people who have different tastes from you or games that are clearly not designed for people like you"
I'm not bothering those who do play sc2, I just made a simple comment aimed at a select group of people and a couple of sc2 fanatics immediately try to jump on me taking the comment for a whole lot more than I meant it to be, so really, the only reason we're still here is because the likes of you are the ones who are 1) bitter, 2) mad, 3) thick headed) and keep on targeting us claiming we're trying to have a bw vs sc2 festival going which isn't the case. So please, pretty please, just stop talking to us.
On October 22 2012 12:24 iky43210 wrote: Xiphos has a personal vendetta against sc2 since release. Everything he sprouts was along the line of how sc2 is bad and bw is better, along with alot of jargons and Blizzard conspiracies theories, and he will never fails to trout some more bw vs sc2 at every opportunity
half of his posts on LR threads are gloating about how kespa players and bw superiority. Guy just can't give it a rest
Although its hard to admit, but I'm as Xiphos. I was bashing SC2 since its release. There are a lot of people like us, god knows we're not like 'twilight saga haters', most of whom jump into bandwagon and never watch the movie actually. We are more of critical people who always find imperfections and ready to point it out.
I want sc2 to be a better game, by no means, I want it to die.
the desktop PC is being used less and less each year. females will never play SC2 in any great numbers.
people thinking SC2 or any RTS will "sweep the nation" are incorrect.
strategy video games have always had a hard-core, vocal, loyal, SMALL fan base.
other great strategy titles like M.U.L.E. and C&C also had their day in the sun, but as great as those games are/were the most popular games were things like Pac-man and Super Mario...this trend is not going to change. casual players who like to play farmville are not going to abandan their chickens and goats so they can blow up a command center with a nuclear bomb.
SC2 is a niche market title that is part of a niche market ( desktop PCs ) that is slowly shrinking in mainstream usage with each passing year.
just enjoy the game for what it is ... as people who loved M.U.L.E. and C&C loved those games.
stop fantasizing the Starcraft2 might somehow become as popular as baseball. ... and everything should be fine.
in 5 years SC2 will have a small loyal fan base and hacking will be rampant.
if you can't enjoy the game for its merits and "as is" and can only "have fun" if u have in ur mind that this game will start appearing on ESPN then try playing a different game.
Hey Filter, thanks for another cogent report on how you feel about the game. I wish people took more of what you say to heart. You have a measured, well-spoken and insightful opinions. I'll basically be proposing to you any day now, no homo.
Sorry about the flamers in this thread, their tummies are hurting.
Because who likes to swallow bad news? Makes my tummy hurt, too, this bad medicine of a disappointed community.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
You are right in that you will never understand it, because it does not seem that you are looking at actual data of viewers who watch daily streams and various tournaments has severely fallen down in comparison to a year ago. Tournaments could do 60-70k viewers, now they range in 30-35k, streamers have almost gotten their viewership halved, Destiny used to get 4k viewers now he sits at 1.5k, CatZ used to do 2.5k now he is at 500-1000.
Basically people were here, they saw stuff and then left, that is what data is telling us and everyone involved is concerned because many people (try to) make money of the game and that well dried up fast.
On October 18 2012 14:29 kill619 wrote: I'll never understand how one team disbanding, an expansion that's very early in beta(relative to when it's actually going to be released) not being perfect, and three reddit post in a day warrants so much panic and distress in a community so quickly.
You are right in that you will never understand it, because it does not seem that you are looking at actual data of viewers who watch daily streams and various tournaments has severely fallen down in comparison to a year ago. Tournaments could do 60-70k viewers, now they range in 30-35k, streamers have almost gotten their viewership halved, Destiny used to get 4k viewers now he sits at 1.5k, CatZ used to do 2.5k now he is at 500-1000.
Basically people were here, they saw stuff and then left, that is what data is telling us and everyone involved is concerned because many people (try to) make money of the game and that well dried up fast.
Even if that is the case, and I am not saying it is (reading data is tricky and can be misleading). That is kind of natural, that is not because people came and then realized oh hey the game is shit. You will always have expansion followed by contraction and plateau and then you can go into a new expansion under the right circumstances. If sc2 reached 60k viewers and then dropped to 30k then those extra 30k were inflated numbers because of the hype and the thing of the day. I just don't get why people can have so much tunnel vision that they don't see that this is what is happening with LoL too. LoL is growing hugely in viewers but it is not a magical game that works differently than any other in terms of mathematics. It will eventually contract too, and then what, are all the LoL players going to freak out about their game dying too?
But then again, I also really question data because it is so easy to show that sc2 is shrinking if you want to, you can just pick and choose what you compare. Sc2 is such a huge scene with so many different actors that while some might be shrinking others might just as well be growing. I mean the latest husky video of WhiteRa vs Algorithm in hots has 118k views after one week. GSL final vods has 112k views and that is the vods aka not counting all the people who saw it live.
On October 22 2012 13:38 VanGarde wrote: LoL is growing hugely in viewers but it is not a magical game that works differently than any other in terms of mathematics. It will eventually contract too, and then what, are all the LoL players going to freak out about their game dying too?
They will if Riot starts acting like Blizzard is now. More and more people are becoming disillusioned by Blizzard.
On October 22 2012 13:38 VanGarde wrote: LoL is growing hugely in viewers but it is not a magical game that works differently than any other in terms of mathematics. It will eventually contract too, and then what, are all the LoL players going to freak out about their game dying too?
They will if Riot starts acting like Blizzard is now. More and more people are becoming disillusioned by Blizzard.
Personally being disillusioned by Blizzard is not evidence that others who stop watching the game are doing it because of being disillusioned by blizzard. Personal bias is best not taken into account when talking about data and trends. That said, do you really not think that there is just as much riot bashing going on in the LoL community? If anything the Riot bashing has been even worse over the course of these last years.
There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI.
You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
Honestly, from a spectator perspective, with so many tournaments going on to a point where a TSL feels like nothing special, I would prefer sc2 to become BW big in one country and forget about the rest. That's just me though. Also when I said standards, I meant in terms of gameplay rather than view counts.
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
Honestly, from a spectator perspective, with so many tournaments going on to a point where a TSL feels like nothing special, I would prefer sc2 to become BW big in one country and forget about the rest. That's just me though. Also when I said standards, I meant in terms of gameplay rather than view counts.
TSL was an online tourny though so of course its not going to be a big deal the community is pretty vocal about how much they dont like watching cross server play and pros wine about cross server play for online tournaments is not a recipe for success
plus was any like really big names even in that tourny?
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
Compared to BW's prime? Not even close.
so korea alone managed to have more viewers then Korea + the rest of the world?
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
Compared to BW's prime? Not even close.
so korea alone managed to have more viewers then Korea + the rest of the world?
Yeah. OSL and Proleague finals (used to) have roughly the same LIVE audience that tourneys like Dreamhack have stream viewers. Plus a few million on TV.
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
Compared to BW's prime? Not even close.
so korea alone managed to have more viewers then Korea + the rest of the world?
On October 22 2012 12:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the desktop PC is being used less and less each year. females will never play SC2 in any great numbers.
people thinking SC2 or any RTS will "sweep the nation" are incorrect.
strategy video games have always had a hard-core, vocal, loyal, SMALL fan base.
other great strategy titles like M.U.L.E. and C&C also had their day in the sun, but as great as those games are/were the most popular games were things like Pac-man and Super Mario...this trend is not going to change. casual players who like to play farmville are not going to abandan their chickens and goats so they can blow up a command center with a nuclear bomb.
SC2 is a niche market title that is part of a niche market ( desktop PCs ) that is slowly shrinking in mainstream usage with each passing year.
just enjoy the game for what it is ... as people who loved M.U.L.E. and C&C loved those games.
stop fantasizing the Starcraft2 might somehow become as popular as baseball. ... and everything should be fine.
in 5 years SC2 will have a small loyal fan base and hacking will be rampant.
if you can't enjoy the game for its merits and "as is" and can only "have fun" if u have in ur mind that this game will start appearing on ESPN then try playing a different game.
I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI.
You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
The lategame PvZ matchup has little to do with the declining viewership of sc2. Lategame PvZ is one of the reason why most hardcore fans who still care about sc2 are currently not so happy, true, but it is not the reason why most casuals are gone. They are gone because the core feature of sc2 is extremly competitive and demanding while there is no other content that makes the everyday casual player happy.
sc2 social experience: not existent during the first year, pretty bad right now. custom games and arcade: simply doesn't work.
of course it doesn't help that even the hardcore fans don't like watching your everday tournament anymore...
the game is definitely in decline, and given what we've seen in HOTS so far, it's not coming back.
the most massive problem right now is that blizzard just can't innovate anymore. we've been sitting here with the promise that design flaws in the game would be fixed, and with the new expansion revealed it has become clear that blizzard just can't come up with anything worth getting excited about. to be honest the company as a whole appears to have lost direction. they were revered for taking their time to produce brilliantly crafted games, but now it just looks like they take forever to release something that is mediocre at best. look at the state of D3 when it was released... and after how many years of development?? they've supposedly been working on HOTS for 2 years. and frankly it looks like they devoted that entire time to the campaign, which isn't going to do anything for the long term.
they have no idea what to do with terran without making redundancies in the race. they have no idea how to make protoss more interesting. they have no idea how to strike a balance with zerg to keep it from being too weak or too powerful.
and then there's the overarching problem they have with not being able to make the game fun to watch or play. they've tried to respond to these complaints by making micro "easier" (shift-click oracle, wanting to make forcefielding easier), when really it's the repetitive macro mechanics that make the game dull and tedious. they've tried to balance the game so much that they've pigeonholed each race into a small number of strategies in any given matchup. it's awful.
and to make it worse it appears blizzard is afraid to touch even the easiest things to fix, like bnet. no one is going to play on a graveyard. sure they want to "preserve the quality of the user experience", but it's killed the spirit of the game. you feel alone. you sit alone at your computer executing repetitive macro mechanics to fulfill one of the small number of strategies you know you can do in the match.
and thus we see a mass exodus of players from the game. a majority of us likely don't even play the game anymore. we just watch streams. but now that's less exciting, because we are seeing streamers play less starcraft and more of other games. you used to be able to look on the featured streamer list and see 20 starcraft streams. now there's more LOL and BW streams than there are SC2. it's dead.
blizzard is resting on its laurels while the game stagnates, and they don't even come close to the amount of effort and urgency in producing new ideas that will revive this game.
On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote: There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you?
Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965 Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set.
so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else?
hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
You seem to forget technology.. Streaming and the internet 2.0 have made it so easy for Blizzard to surpass BW with SC2.
But they didn't really. If you had seen the CRAZE of BW in 2005 to 2009. Offline tournaments could full up a stadium.
SC2 gets many viewers, but with streaming. what happened in 2005 is different from what is happening now. SC2 should have been bigger, but KESPA didn't follow at first... that's blizzard's first error. Then there is Battle.net 2.0, where chatrooms (when they decided to implement them) are almost always empty or inactive. No LAN supports.. teamhouses do not have the same meaning anymore.. Boring gameplay where mechanics take a backseat to memorized build orders. I don't feel that the pros im watching in SC2 are that good, even the top tier. In BW however, I considered as almost inhuman the players' ability to make all of their strat works. I still pay for GSL but i do not even watch all the games.
By no means is Starcraft 2 bad, but it is not as good as BW, not even remotely. Blizzard's gotta understand this. Dumbing down the game so casuals can play it is not the right thing to do. Casuals will grind the fuck out of a game where they admire the pro players.
I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI.
You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
The lategame PvZ matchup has little to do with the declining viewership of sc2. Lategame PvZ is one of the reason why most hardcore fans who still care about sc2 are currently not so happy, true, but it is not the reason why most casuals are gone. They are gone because the core feature of sc2 is extremly competitive and demanding while there is no other content that makes the everyday casual player happy.
sc2 social experience: not existent during the first year, pretty bad right now. custom games and arcade: simply doesn't work.
of course it doesn't help that even the hardcore fans don't like watching your everday tournament anymore...
People stop playing because gameplay is very frustrating: - Too many badly designed impairing spells like FF, FG, vortex - Too much deathball - Imbalanced timings where one race has an unfair advantage (this is true for all races!!)
That last one is the worst of all imo. Just think about it: imbalance claims is an obsession in the community. And why is that? Are SC2 players really such endless whinners?
No, I believe there are many valid reasons for all that frustration because all races feel very UP at some situations. And this is all because the design team thinks 'asymmetrical balance' is about switching between being OP earlygame to being UP lategame when it's not. Asymmetrical balance is giving different races different tools and weapons but having a fair fight from start to finish.
The main reason: Easy access to fun games - SC2 focuses way to much on hardcore laddering (for futher reading, check out destinys recent rant here)
Included in "access" it is important to realize that the casual fan will find it easier to enjoy watching if you play yourself. And guess what, LoL is free...! But that aside.
Everytime a big tournament is held in LoL. There will be super super super easy access to watch it. When you log into LoL the entire background of your client will metaphorically speaking be a HUUUGE link to the stream. And (correct me if I'm wrong) only around 6-8 big events are held/year.
In sc2, there are 5-7 random tournaments a week, there is no way to keep track on which are "important" and most times when you (casually) browse through the TL streams to check out if there might be something worth watching you get some sort of message like: FOR ONLY 9.99$ you can watch "insert tournament name". Thats all fine, if you knew what tournaments to watch, instead you might get some smaller tournament with players whom you dont know and dont care for. And most times, the fee you need to pay will only provide you with 1/2 or 1/3 of a tournament since it started long ago. Too the casual, that is not very appealing since you most likely doesnt have the entirety of a weekend to watch anyway.¨
Another thing that I wont get to far into is SC2 vs SC:BW, where I think that SC:BW as a game was a far more fun game to spectate. But we can discuss that to death and never agree. However some of the things that could change that can be found in gretorps recent very well written post about that here.
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
- Reaver for colossus - Lurker for Swarm host - Defiler for Infestor - Sc1 Carrier-Micro-Mechanics back - Speed upgrade for Hydras should need only Lair not Hive - Remove 250mm Cannons of Thors - Remove Reaper from Terran and move it to Protoss in changed look - Spore Crawler need Evolution Chamber again
Good Job Blizzard for things they did and things they announced:
- New Hots Inteface - Warhound removed - Widow Mine - Baneling - Ultra-Charge - Stalker and Blink - Warp in Mechanic of Protoss and Warp Prism - Hallucination of Sentry without Tech - Multiplayer resume from replay - Multiplayer replay viewing - Unranked matchmaking - Clan/group system
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
Edite: Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI.
You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
That's not actually SUCH a bad thing.
WC3 for instance:
Vs Orc it was about not allowing the BM to get stacked and criting your whole army Vs UD it was about not allowing the UD to get Tier 3, Frost/Destro/Abom and Tri-Hero Coil-Nova-Impale Vs Hu it was about not allowing them to get expos + mass towers + Tri-Hero. Vs NE it was about not allowing them to snowball with Bear/Dryad by cutting their wood, harassing at tier 1 or killing the DH.
However, due to luck factors, creeping and the ability to win with any composition so long as you had the micro, the versatility of these match ups remained at a peak point even till this day.
More on the topic, I don't regret buying SC2, I just regret being part of such a retarded community. WC3 is at an alltime low as an e-sport and 90% of the community are trolls - but each and every single person loves the games and does his part for the enjoyment of others. Here we have constant whiners, naysayers, doomsayers and straight up bitches who ruin the experience for other people.
You people need to check yourselves before you start screaming that the world is ending.
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side.
Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion.
You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all.
Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
3 things: 1) Gameplay is indeed very important and blizzard should have done much more to prevent ladder anxiety. 2) social also aspect very important, and blizzard completely failed/ignored this asspect with bnet 2.0 3) e-sports dedicated game is the least important actual. blizzard did okay'ish here, though obv. they failed in a lot of ways (collosus), and they could have improved sc2 from an esports active without casual gameplay or social aspect suffering.
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
3 things: 1) Gameplay is indeed very important and blizzard should have done much more to prevent ladder anxiety. 2) social also aspect very important, and blizzard completely failed/ignored this asspect with bnet 2.0 3) e-sports dedicated game is the least important actual. blizzard did okay'ish here, though obv. they failed in a lot of ways (collosus), and they could have improved sc2 from an esports active without casual gameplay or social aspect suffering.
Might be more things then 3 but the one u stated so far i agree to some extent
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side.
Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion.
You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all.
Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
When a game has amazing gameplay people play it. Period. No need for social aspects or friends, especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good 1v1 online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little social features at all. I gave you the chess example.
The problem with SC2 is that it's a very frustarting game, dominated by frustrating spells and situations where you feel completely hopeless (UP). Every race is hopeless at least in some stages of some match-ups. And that's no fun at all.
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side.
Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion.
You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all.
Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
When a game has amazing gameplay people play it. Period. No need for social aspects or friends, especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good 1v1 online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little social features at all. I gave you the chess example.
The problem with SC2 is that it's a very frustarting game, dominated by frustrating spells and situations where you feel completely hopeless (UP). Every race is hopeless at least in some stages of some match-ups. And that's no fun at all.
Last time i look i was a human being i so i am fairly certain that i am included in the people category. I am also fairly certain that i don't only play the game for its amazing game play. Maybe i am wrong ,maybe u know better on what my own opinion is. Maybe i am not a person. Maybe you have a friend named people .
Your line of argumentation is for me frustrating. picking specific part of the post and interpreting in your own way so your still believe we are talking about wrong and right. Here it hows i would look like i would argument like u are now:
When a game has amazing social aspects or friends playing people play it. Period. No need for game play , especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little game play features at all.
This not what i think but i hope u see how this way of argumentation is another word of bulshitt you might be right u might be wrong but believing there is only one way to see things is just being short minded.
Disclaimer. This only my own opinion on the subject and does not reflect anything more then that
On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote: Most people here are missing the point. The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side.
Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion.
You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all.
Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
When a game has amazing gameplay people play it. Period. No need for social aspects or friends, especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good 1v1 online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little social features at all. I gave you the chess example.
The problem with SC2 is that it's a very frustarting game, dominated by frustrating spells and situations where you feel completely hopeless (UP). Every race is hopeless at least in some stages of some match-ups. And that's no fun at all.
Last time i look i was a human being i so i am fairly certain that i am included in the people category. I am also fairly certain that i don't only play the game for its amazing game play. Maybe i am wrong ,maybe u know better on what my own opinion is. Maybe i am not a person. Maybe you have a friend named people .
Your line of argumentation is for me frustrating. picking specific part of the post and interpreting in your own way so your still believe we are talking about wrong and right. Here it hows i would look like i would argument like u are now:
When a game has amazing social aspects or friends playing people play it. Period. No need for game play , especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little game play features at all.
This not what i think but i hope u see how this way of argumentation is another word of bulshitt you might be right u might be wrong but believing there is only one way to see things is just being short minded.
Disclaimer. This only my own opinion on the subject and does not reflect anything more then that
I have 2 questions for you: 1) What's your favorite hobbie? (including sports, video games, arts, anything) 2) Would you stop doing it if your friends stopped doing it?
We have so many tournaments where only some of them are special. In my opinion, most tournaments are horribly supported. I want to find the stream and get a link with the current bracked, a readable schedule and links to all VODs without searching my ass off. I want the casters to talk about the story line involved and to not
- overhype a game (do we ever don't see an "amazing" game? How come that every game is "so important"?)
- call GG early. This must not be done. This hurts esports because it lessens the entertainment for many viewers. If a viewer sees that it is over, he doesn't need to be told. Average Joe might think consider the final battle the climax of the game but gets interested because a caster already called the game over. Casters do not just comment a competetion, they create an entertainment product.
We need to create a welcoming athmosphere, we don't need too much jargon. If a new guy watches a cast, he will be left confused.
Tournaments should use more player cards (a picture of a player and some words about his strenghts.) Some real interview questions, not only the hype style of Clutch which gets boring very quickly.
The viewers need to be more involved, tournaments should show their cheerfuls, interview them about their opinion. Let a newbie see "heys, those nerds are guys like me."
We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
We need any caster in the community, we do need Husky, HD and TotalBiscuit because they are good to get new nerds into the game. We need to stop to whine about Moletrap.
Yes, there is real player competition, but most of us don't play the game because of the competition, rather to have an experience together with a friend when playing a 2v2 or a custom game. The game is rather a medium through which great stories are told and funny content is produced (like Funday Monday, Trial of the Xel'Naga, some of TB's events and so on.)
On October 22 2012 23:52 [F_]aths wrote: We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
Sorry, but what we all need to voice is how displeased we are with the game design they created. Then maybe someone will get rid of this crapy design team and put someone on the job who actually knows what they're doing.
If I challenged you for a 10 minute fight where you fight blindfolded for the first 5 minutes and I fight with my hands tied together for the next 5 minutes would you accept it?
Then why are we all playing a game where they openly admit that one race is weaker midgame and the other is weaker late game and call this 'asymmetrical design'?
Asymmetrical design is not this, is giving races different weapons and different feels, while keeping the game fair to both sides at any moment.
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
It's completely obvious to anyone but them that this creates frustrating gameplay, because you feel it's unfair to loose at a stage in the game when your race is known to be weaker. And this happens to all races. It also leads to obvious turtling play, because people will run away from fights until they feel they have the upper hand.
Add to this all the impairing spells like FF, FG or vortex and you have the most stupidly frustrating game ever.
One point that isn't nearly stressed enough in all of these recent discussion about SC2 decline of popularity is the complete lack of a direct competitor for Blizzard in SC2. Just have a look a the situation with MOBA games: Right now we have at least LoL, DOTA 2, HoN and the original DOTA competing for the same player base. There are thus at least three (!) major game developing companies that are competing for the same customers.
What this means (amongs others) is that these companies must treat the customers right if they want to be successful. For example, they cannot simply announce features for the release and then postpone them to the next addon (which costs $$$ of course). If Riot doesn't treat their players right, then they're just gonna switch to DOTA 2 or whatnot. This gives a huge advantage to the player base and leads to a constant and steady development of these games.
On the other hand, SC2 just doesn't have a noteworthy competitor in the field of classical RTS games. The closest game that can be regarded in this context is ironically its predecessor. And this situation is probably not gonna change within the next years as there is no new upcoming star to be seen on the RTS horizon.
Unfortunately, Blizzard does what a lot of other companies from various economic sectors with a similar monopoly have been doing ever since: the abuse their market position. Given all of the experiences that we have gained since the dawn of SC2, I think it's pretty safe to say that Blizzard tries to get away with investing a very limited effort concerning game developing and community support. They seem to be allocting nowhere near enough resources to tease out the full potential of this game. And from a pure economic perspective, this is a reasonable approach since they know we the players are probably going to buy the game anyway.
I think in order to truly improve our situation, there are three paths leading to the light: (1) Blizzard somehow starts listening to the community and allocates more resources into game development (2) A serious competitors steps into the field and thus forces Blizzard to do (1) (3) Blizzard opens the SC2 platform to the community by allowing custom servers (or LAN if you want to call it this way) thus leveraging the community's almost endless creative energy.
Unfortunately, I don't see of these threee points put into practice in the near future.
LoL is large because it is so easy. If you make it harder and more competitive you will run into the same issue that SC2 is having. A lot of people are scared of competitive gaming and hide behind other people with skill, in Team Games. Whatever. But, Ladder anxiety is a real thing. Competitive nature is inherent to a small group of people.
Prediction, if LoL gets harder and more competitive, a lot of the younger kids (which is the main demographic for LoL) are just going to go and play another game that is win-win. (WoW, and other MMO's)
On October 22 2012 23:52 [F_]aths wrote: We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
Sorry, but what we all need to voice is how displeased we are with the game design they created. Then maybe someone will get rid of this crapy design team and put someone on the job who actually knows what they're doing.
If I challenged you for a 10 minute fight where you fight blindfolded for the first 5 minutes and I fight with my hands tied together for the next 5 minutes would you accept it?
Then why are we all playing a game where they openly admit that one race is weaker midgame and the other is weaker late game and call this 'asymmetrical design'?
Asymmetrical design is not this, is giving races different weapons and different feels, while keeping the game fair to both sides at any moment.
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
It's completely obvious to anyone but them that this creates frustrating gameplay, because you feel it's unfair to loose at a stage in the game when your race is known to be weaker. And this happens to all races. It also leads to obvious turtling play, because people will run away from fights until they feel they have the upper hand.
Add to this all the impairing spells like FF, FG or vortex and you have the most stupidly frustrating game ever.
I have not thought of this as a huge issue but it kind of is. That assymetric balance is causing all these timings.
Good post, but SC2's problem is not only this. The deathball movement mechanics is another one.
I started spectating SC and SC2 during beta. King of the Beta was the first tournament I watched. The first SC2 TSL was amazing and pretty much every big tournament up until recently has been "tournament weekends" where I stock up on snacks and live very unhealthy for a couple of days -- but enjoying it immensely.
But now? Pretty much unfollowed every single Starcraft player on Twitter because it's all "support this shit, buy this shit, etc". Only Morrow, SaSe and Naniwa of all the people I follow still do commentary and community interaction. Day9 for instance is just circlejerking with youtube celebrities which I have absolute no interest in. and not just day9 -- it feels like many others are moving away from SC2, or are just looking to monetize my interest in e-sports.
I no longer look forward to tournaments because the game feels stale. HotS is being criticized by pros so I as an amateur player/spectator don't feel like I have much to look forward to.
Only the GSL still feels relevant, but not so fun with the influx of new players I don't know. I doubt I'll renew my subscription. OSL feels relevant in terms of player skill, but is IMO unwatchable because of the casters and the disinterest OSL has for foreign viewers.
So that's my point of view. I still visit Team Liquid and I often check up on the SC reddit page. It's often disappointing because I no longer see threads like "OMG NESTEA DOES SOMETHING AMAZING WOW MUST-SEE GAME" instead it's all whine and bullshit, like my post now.
What I find the most ridiculous are people calling for the community to change attitude. won't happen. blizzard must make SC2 a better game and tournaments must cut down on bullshit filler stuff. 2 dreamhacks, 4 mlgs, quarterly GSL, blizzard WC tourney <- that's all I really need.
On October 23 2012 11:44 phanto wrote: I started spectating SC and SC2 during beta. King of the Beta was the first tournament I watched. The first SC2 TSL was amazing and pretty much every big tournament up until recently has been "tournament weekends" where I stock up on snacks and live very unhealthy for a couple of days -- but enjoying it immensely.
But now? Pretty much unfollowed every single Starcraft player on Twitter because it's all "support this shit, buy this shit, etc". Only Morrow, SaSe and Naniwa of all the people I follow still do commentary and community interaction. Day9 for instance is just circlejerking with youtube celebrities which I have absolute no interest in. and not just day9 -- it feels like many others are moving away from SC2, or are just looking to monetize my interest in e-sports.
I no longer look forward to tournaments because the game feels stale. HotS is being criticized by pros so I as an amateur player/spectator don't feel like I have much to look forward to.
Only the GSL still feels relevant, but not so fun with the influx of new players I don't know. I doubt I'll renew my subscription. OSL feels relevant in terms of player skill, but is IMO unwatchable because of the casters and the disinterest OSL has for foreign viewers.
So that's my point of view. I still visit Team Liquid and I often check up on the SC reddit page. It's often disappointing because I no longer see threads like "OMG NESTEA DOES SOMETHING AMAZING WOW MUST-SEE GAME" instead it's all whine and bullshit, like my post now.
What I find the most ridiculous are people calling for the community to change attitude. won't happen. blizzard must make SC2 a better game and tournaments must cut down on bullshit filler stuff. 2 dreamhacks, 4 mlgs, quarterly GSL, blizzard WC tourney <- that's all I really need.
Luckily for you, you can watch what you need and ignore what you don't. Too much choice in this case is kind of bullshit. I only watch premier tournaments for the most part unless a player I enjoy is in them (such as IPL Fight Club). The fact that there is always some smaller tournament going on doesn't bother me, I just check the results if im interested and go on my way. Are people really so retarded that they can't do this?
If your old favorites are dropping out and the only guys you follow are Naniwa, Sase and Morrow (didn't even have to look at your nationality), this is a bit of a problem. In the end it is up to you, but give new players a chance. Lots of the 'new' players in GSL actually aren't that new (either they are from kespa or they were having success previously in a more limited nature). It might not work for some people, but its not nearly as big a problem as people think it is until they give them a try.
On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote: RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
I'd rather have five active players in the entire SC2 ladder at any given time than cater to causal player. I'd rather have a well thought out, well balanced, harder-than-hell game than to turn it over to the casual player.
Keep dumbing down the game Blizzard. When the casual fan-base [who already stays with any game for ~5 months] stops playing SC2 and are playing some Win-Win game and the people who really love Starcraft are left playing a game that a seven year old can grasp, you've ruined not only the reputation of the game but your reputation as a company.
On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote: RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
Well you can blame Browder and Kim for that.. they made their ex-IP crumble.
On October 23 2012 14:44 PauseBreak wrote: I'd rather have five active players in the entire SC2 ladder at any given time than cater to causal player. I'd rather have a well thought out, well balanced, harder-than-hell game than to turn it over to the casual player.
Keep dumbing down the game Blizzard. When the casual fan-base [who already stays with any game for ~5 months] stops playing SC2 and are playing some Win-Win game and the people who really love Starcraft are left playing a game that a seven year old can grasp, you've ruined not only the reputation of the game but your reputation as a company.
On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote: RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
Well you can blame Browder and Kim for that.. they made their ex-IP crumble.
I dont know about RTS being the mainstays. MOBA is not the only game competing, there are so many MMORPGs out there right now. What about FPS? Dont expect the pool of players playing sc2 to be more than those interested in RTS. RTS being the mainstays is probably an even bigger myth.
I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI.
You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
The lategame PvZ matchup has little to do with the declining viewership of sc2. Lategame PvZ is one of the reason why most hardcore fans who still care about sc2 are currently not so happy, true, but it is not the reason why most casuals are gone. They are gone because the core feature of sc2 is extremly competitive and demanding while there is no other content that makes the everyday casual player happy.
sc2 social experience: not existent during the first year, pretty bad right now. custom games and arcade: simply doesn't work.
of course it doesn't help that even the hardcore fans don't like watching your everday tournament anymore...
People stop playing because gameplay is very frustrating: - Too many badly designed impairing spells like FF, FG, vortex - Too much deathball - Imbalanced timings where one race has an unfair advantage (this is true for all races!!)
That last one is the worst of all imo. Just think about it: imbalance claims is an obsession in the community. And why is that? Are SC2 players really such endless whinners?
No, I believe there are many valid reasons for all that frustration because all races feel very UP at some situations. And this is all because the design team thinks 'asymmetrical balance' is about switching between being OP earlygame to being UP lategame when it's not. Asymmetrical balance is giving different races different tools and weapons but having a fair fight from start to finish.
You didn't get my point. Most people whine about balance and gameplay. True. But these are also people who are still activly involved with sc2. They are still there. But there is also a big chunk of people who stopped being interested in sc2. And they didn't do that because of some gameplay and balance.
Most people played team games and custom games in bw. Most people played team games and custom games in wc3. Most people wanted to play team games and custom games in sc2. They found these features inferior to what they were used to and stopped playing.
Hell, i started sc2 with 8 of my friends. They the last one was logged in 1 year ago. They never were interested in playing 1v1. Watching tournaments? Sure! I even believe that one of them still watches husky every now and then. But they certainly didn't stop playing because terran stim timings were strong during that period of time.
Don't get me wrong, the current PvX matchups and overall balance is certainly not good. But if sc2 had a decent social experience and arcade system right at release date we easily would have 2-3 times as many people being active in sc2 right now. Better balance? Maybe 20% more active people (+more a overall more happy base) but not more.
On October 22 2012 12:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the desktop PC is being used less and less each year. females will never play SC2 in any great numbers.
people thinking SC2 or any RTS will "sweep the nation" are incorrect.
strategy video games have always had a hard-core, vocal, loyal, SMALL fan base.
other great strategy titles like M.U.L.E. and C&C also had their day in the sun, but as great as those games are/were the most popular games were things like Pac-man and Super Mario...this trend is not going to change. casual players who like to play farmville are not going to abandan their chickens and goats so they can blow up a command center with a nuclear bomb.
SC2 is a niche market title that is part of a niche market ( desktop PCs ) that is slowly shrinking in mainstream usage with each passing year.
just enjoy the game for what it is ... as people who loved M.U.L.E. and C&C loved those games.
stop fantasizing the Starcraft2 might somehow become as popular as baseball. ... and everything should be fine.
in 5 years SC2 will have a small loyal fan base and hacking will be rampant.
if you can't enjoy the game for its merits and "as is" and can only "have fun" if u have in ur mind that this game will start appearing on ESPN then try playing a different game.
This right here is the bitter truth! +1!
I'll just comment about eSports and North America:
People, especially on this website and sc2 forums, daydream about Starcraft bringing "eSports" into mainstream. I don't think people understand the sporting culture of the world, especially of north America. For a sports to become popular, actual physical activity is a must. Sports simply do not show a significant rise viewership over long periods of time if there is no actual physical activity. SC2 will always be seen as just another video game with limited life by an average person. As JimmyJRaynor said, its a niche.
I have to say it but eSport promotion is a losing battle in North American. Viewership is too small to support anything except small scale tournaments. But there is nothing wrong with small scale - lets enjoy it.
Another good point JimmyJRaynor made is the decline of Desktop PCs. He's absolutely right. Apple etc, for example, have basically changed the course of personal devices and the "pads" are the future. I mean, people are moving away from laptops towards handled pads "eg. iPad"...so does anyone really think Desktops are going to last? But currently there is something fun about Desktops - I have always been a PC gamer and will continue to be till the inevitable happens: the end of desktops as a platform for gaming, or for anything.
It's best to stop feeling sad or frustrated about the state of the game. If you like SC2, play it regardless of how it is doing as an "eSport". Let Blizzard worry about the future of their company.
On October 18 2012 14:25 HolyExlxF wrote: I think Blizzard needs to stop listening to the community - regarding balance decisions - and I think the community needs to stop feeling so goddamned entitled.
This is so wrong, in so many aspects, read Grubby's and SaSe's statement on the current game (and balance) situation, I feel like they know exactly what they're talking about. Besides the fact that SC2 has "just in this moment" a slight problem of balance, I feel that SC2 is still the 2nd best RTS game ever made. After Broodwar obviously. And ppl who are saying that WC3 was anything special, read Grubbys, DeMuslims, and Naniwas statement where they mention that WC3 was imbalanced as shit
SC2 is right now way more balanced than WC3 will ever be. But that's not the point here, just my two sentence on that.
We still need to wait until HotS and LoV is out, hopefully Blizzard knows what they're doing
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc)
2) the persistence of some bad game design choices that make people loose interest(enforced rules on maps, death balls, retarded spells like FG that make for unticlimactic moments, boring units like Colossus, units being balanced by nerfs instead of buffs making them feel pedestrian, etc)
I'm personally bored by SC2 and stopped playing and watching some time ago and HOTS doesn't seem to be even trying to fix some of the core design problems. At this point, it looks like WOL with a few extra units.
On October 23 2012 12:10 zefreak wrote: If your old favorites are dropping out and the only guys you follow are Naniwa, Sase and Morrow (didn't even have to look at your nationality)
:D
But that's a big part of what keeps people interested. Rooting for nations (much so in my case), teams, and "the best players"/legends (like Boxer or Flash) are what draws in viewers for the long term.
On October 22 2012 23:52 [F_]aths wrote: We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
Sorry, but what we all need to voice is how displeased we are with the game design they created. Then maybe someone will get rid of this crapy design team and put someone on the job who actually knows what they're doing.
If I challenged you for a 10 minute fight where you fight blindfolded for the first 5 minutes and I fight with my hands tied together for the next 5 minutes would you accept it?
Then why are we all playing a game where they openly admit that one race is weaker midgame and the other is weaker late game and call this 'asymmetrical design'?
Asymmetrical design is not this, is giving races different weapons and different feels, while keeping the game fair to both sides at any moment.
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
It's completely obvious to anyone but them that this creates frustrating gameplay, because you feel it's unfair to loose at a stage in the game when your race is known to be weaker. And this happens to all races. It also leads to obvious turtling play, because people will run away from fights until they feel they have the upper hand.
Add to this all the impairing spells like FF, FG or vortex and you have the most stupidly frustrating game ever.
I have not thought of this as a huge issue but it kind of is. That assymetric balance is causing all these timings.
Good post, but SC2's problem is not only this. The deathball movement mechanics is another one.
What if I told you the main reason for deathball play is ALSO this shity view of what asymmetrical design is? If you know your race is worse midgame and better lategame what do you do? Turtle and make a lategame deathball. Simple and obvious.
On October 18 2012 14:25 HolyExlxF wrote: I think Blizzard needs to stop listening to the community - regarding balance decisions - and I think the community needs to stop feeling so goddamned entitled.
This is so wrong, in so many aspects, read Grubby's and SaSe's statement on the current game (and balance) situation, I feel like they know exactly what they're talking about. Besides the fact that SC2 has "just in this moment" a slight problem of balance, I feel that SC2 is still the 2nd best RTS game ever made. After Broodwar obviously. And ppl who are saying that WC3 was anything special, read Grubbys, DeMuslims, and Naniwas statement where they mention that WC3 was imbalanced as shit
SC2 is right now way more balanced than WC3 will ever be. But that's not the point here, just my two sentence on that.
We still need to wait until HotS and LoV is out, hopefully Blizzard knows what they're doing
The problem with SC2 design is not simply because it's imbalanced. People will play an imbalanced game if it's lots of fun.
The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay. When you are being owned by OP spells that at the same time leave you no chance of response, like FF, FG or vortex, you are left with a bitter taste in your mouth. It's not just because they are imba, it's because they are bad design.
- You think it's fun to have your army divided in 2 by forcefields and feel hopeless while watching half your units die? It's not, it's frustrating. - You think it's fun to practice marine micro for hours and have all your marines being paralised by fungals and exploded by banes? It's not, it's frustrating. - You think it's fun to inject flawlessly for 25 minutes and loose all your broodloords to an archon toilet? It's not, it's frustrating.
On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote: I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community.
On October 23 2012 17:17 Sapphire.lux wrote: So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc)
Or you don't feel forced to autojoin a chat room where kids are shittalking each other or where chat bots advertise for webpages. Compared to WC3 it is much easier now to talk to someone after a game. I feed more involved in SC2 than in WC3, where I was glad when Blizzard patched the client to allowed to start a game without autojoining any chat room. (Bit friends list access still implied autojoin of a general chat.)
On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote: I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community.
On October 23 2012 17:17 Sapphire.lux wrote: So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc)
Or you don't feel forced to autojoin a chat room where kids are shittalking each other or where chat bots advertise for webpages. Compared to WC3 it is much easier now to talk to someone after a game. I feed more involved in SC2 than in WC3, where I was glad when Blizzard allowed to start a game without autojoining any chat room.
League doesn't force you into a chatroom either, the strength of that games social aspect right now is playing with friends and sharing the experience. Something that can't be easily replicated in a 1v1 game.
If SC2 had really good team support with cool stuff like team rankings it would be pretty sweet. Having your ladder rating affect your teams ladder or something along those lines would be pretty cool. Even just having team based ratings for 2v2 3v3 4v4 etc would be awesome. Breaking that off into an entirely separate ladder where even if you have 20 people on your team you all share a ranking if you choose to play the team mode. It's silly that everytime I play a team game with friends if somebody has to go we have to do all 5 placements again with somebody else.
Something like that would even add a new dynamic to ladder, where two players that respected each others play one guy might invite the other to his team etc. Being able to share replays with your team from in game, group watching of replays and all that stuff.
Yeah sc2 is a 1v1 game, but the social aspect of it could be extremely good. When BW first came out players basically did these things on their own, which was acceptable at the time. Things have changed now, and the easier it is for players to interact with each other the better.
On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote: I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community.
Neither. This idiotic view on what assymetrical design is the main reason for: - deathball play - turtling - boring and repetitive gameplay
So if this was premeditated by someone, that guy needs to get FIRED! If this was not premeditated, it shows how little control they have over the game's balance, so it's basic incompetence as well.
On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote: I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community.
On October 23 2012 17:17 Sapphire.lux wrote: So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc)
Or you don't feel forced to autojoin a chat room where kids are shittalking each other or where chat bots advertise for webpages. Compared to WC3 it is much easier now to talk to someone after a game. I feed more involved in SC2 than in WC3, where I was glad when Blizzard patched the client to allowed to start a game without autojoining any chat room. (Bit friends list access still implied autojoin of a general chat.)
It seems like most people have the opposite opinion though. But you should have the option to customize things for sure.
I find the actual game design to be the biggest problem, it actually makes people that used to like the game stop doing so. Attracting new people is important, but if you can't even keep the ones you used to have...something is very wrong.
On October 23 2012 17:42 Azoryen wrote: The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay.
You only get out what you put in. Does chess lead to boring gameplay? It depends on the player. Similar to SC2. Like in chess, most games are boring, only a handful are remembered. There are some issues in SC2 for sure, like ZvP late game. Those are tackled right now with HotS; but those issues are issues only for pros anyway.
There is a philosophical issue, too. What do you mean with "boring" gameplay? That it is predictable? If it would be hardly predictable at all, it would be random. We don't want that either.
I am not saying that the game couldn't be better, for example I would like to see more harassing in the early game and less macro-macro-macro-battle-GG. But if one reads you posting one could get the impression that SC2 is one of the worst RTS games.
On October 23 2012 17:42 Azoryen wrote: The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay.
You only get out what you put in. Does chess lead to boring gameplay? It depends on the player. Similar to SC2. Like in chess, most games are boring, only a handful are remembered. There are some issues in SC2 for sure, like ZvP late game. Those are tackled right now with HotS; but those issues are issues only for pros anyway.
There is a philosophical issue, too. What do you mean with "boring" gameplay? That it is predictable? If it would be hardly predictable at all, it would be random. We don't want that either.
I am not saying that the game couldn't be better, for example I would like to see more harassing in the early game and less macro-macro-macro-battle-GG. But if one reads you posting one could get the impression that SC2 is one of the worst RTS games.
You are dead wrong if you think only pros suffer from the design issues of SC2. In fact, it's the other way round: the textbook counters to some design issues are only in the reach of the best players out there.
A casual is much more likely to loose all his his roaches to FF because he can't flank, induce energy waste, back and forwards, etc. He just a-moves and looses everything. He is much more likely to loose all his broodlords to a vortex because he doesn't split. He is much more likely to be unable to put enough pressure on a toss turteling on 2 bases, while gaining a macro advantage on 3 bases, because he lacks the apm to do so, so he will just be crushed by that deathball.
A few too many bad taste experiences like that and it's bye bye casual.
If 2 casuals play chess, it's fun because the game is balanced at all levels. Good balance at casual level would look like this: If a casual has better harassing/multitasking, etc, he is able to gain an advantage by putting constant pressure. If the game is designed in a way that race X can just turtle midgame and race Y MUST put constant pressure just to stand a chance... well that's simply doesn't work at low levels.
SC2 is much more imbalanced at casual level than pro level.
On October 23 2012 19:20 Azoryen wrote: SC2 is much more imbalanced at casual level than pro level.
Most casual gamers have so big macro issues that "imbalance" doesn't really factor into it. I guess ghat the perceived imbalance is great on the casual level, because you rather blame the race or the game than you own lack of skill.
On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote: RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
Thats a truth. SC2 is the only good one in a long while and it doesn't really live up to its lineage. But then Browder et al were not involved in the successful blizard RTS games of old, in fact he was responsible for the competitions poorer examples of the genre. I doubt we'll ever see the game we really want from these guys, hopefully something new will arise, as broodwar did way back. In the meantime, its still a damn good game.
On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote: RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
RTS has pretty much died out though. Hardly any releases for it and most have moved away from the classic RTS with actual resource/base management. SC2 isn't doing too bad but it will only shrink imo as many people simply prefer other types of games now. I really like RTS but I can't really play it casually as it requires huge attention all the time, lots of other games are just more relaxing and easier to play if you don't play often anymore
On October 23 2012 19:20 Azoryen wrote: SC2 is much more imbalanced at casual level than pro level.
Most casual gamers have so big macro issues that "imbalance" doesn't really factor into it. I guess ghat the perceived imbalance is great on the casual level, because you rather blame the race or the game than you own lack of skill.
That's total BS. The big difference between pros and casuals is multitasking, not macro alone. That's why you create much more of an issue to casuals if you demand high multitasking/game knowledge or whatever other high level skill just to survive stage X of the game.
A zerg can inject flawlessly for 25 minutes just to have his broodlords archon toileted. And he can saturate 3 bases pretty decently just to loose hopelessly to an immortal/sentry FF abuse because he can't deal with FF like a pro does. He will have equal army value and better income and be destroyed because a spell like FF is much easier to cast than to counter. It has more to do with micro/multitasking than macro really. It's not about blaming the race, because later in the game, it's also pretty understandable that a P feels very frustrated against broodlord/infestor. It's just that the game is designed in a way that a race is clearly inferior at a given time, even if both casuals are macroing pretty decently and at an equal level.
It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed. It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Stop repeating that standard crap that it's all the player's incompetence. It's NOT and posts like this have only contributed to increasing the frustration of casual players.
That's like saying: you have to go to a fist fight against me with your hands tied together from minute X to minute Y and if you can't run away from me fast enough during that period and I catch you and punch you do death... well, it's your fault for not being fast enough.
I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor)
And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen: It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed. It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it.
You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better.
On October 23 2012 21:48 PauseBreak wrote: I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor)
And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen: It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed. It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it.
You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better.
You CAN balance the game for EVERYONE. You just need to forget about the absurd design idea that asymmetrical balance is about making races stronger at early/mid/late game. Make the 3 races different but balanced for the entire duration of a match-up, from start to finish, and the game will be better balanced to everyone, while more fun and less QQing.
On October 23 2012 21:07 Azoryen wrote: Stop repeating that standard crap that it's all the player's incompetence. It's NOT and posts like this have only contributed to increasing the frustration of casual players.
Unless both players have the same race, they will can be tempted to blamce the race balance instead of their own faults. I am close to get my achievement for 1000 zerg wins in 1v1, yet I am still in silver. Instead of complaining about the hardness of playing zerg in the early game, I rather try to build more drones without dying.
If you really try to minimise the QQ, you will end up with Farmville. Unless you are a top pro on a level where balance actually matters, the one who plays better, wins.
Starcraft 2 is not in a crisis. The beta is EXTREMELY early in development and testing and balancing. So early that its impossible to know the final product. They change things every week, and they change dramatic things! They haven't even implemented what they want to do with nydus networks.
Its at the bare basics and I have faith they'll make an amazing experience. People like Destiny, spouting about how its gonna die and how the UI is crap compared to LoL and Dota 2 etc etc... is stupid to believe that that is why people played in the first place. "OMG GUYS!!! There's a game out there, and have you seen the UI?!?!? Gameplay sucks, but the features are just incredible in the menus!!! Stats and figures!!! YES!!!" Naahhh, I'm sure people played because of the gameplay (and btw they are changing the UI). Destiny himself tried to be a pro player, but sucked too much and had to go to LoL cause he got domm'd every major tournie he entered. Not surprised to see him try to boycot the game he isn't playing anymore.
Now you say streams like Idra in the future will be at <1k viewers, and that this will destroy Starcraft in e-sports?!? IDC about Idra's stream, never watch it cause of the obnoxious dubstep and his attitude is woahful. Watching koreans or Stephano for example, is much more interesting. Hell atm IGN have a 24/7 stream running with always 2k+ viewers non-stop. Doing tournaments and random events, keeping the scene alive. I would rather watch IPL than MLG any day of the week. Also would rather watch the GSL finals more than all of that.
You end by complaining about balancing, "aw I pay zerg and I get hit with helions so I lose everytime".... here's a tip, build roaches and scout = you win. There was no need for your complaints about your lack of skill towards the end of the video.
This whole video has basically encouraged people to move to LoL instead of trying to promote how Starcraft 2 is still an amazing experience and an amazing game to watch with ever evolving meta-game. It requires the most skill and strategy to play and win, and will always be that. Just because you cant play and got bored of the pro scene, doesn't mean its in a "crisis"!!! IN FACT, the only news of this and how it got into everyones head atm, is because of people like yourself, or Sase's balancing bitch session, or Destiny's LoL pay-off rant. Why not make a video promoting how Starcraft 2 is still an amazing game, with a large community who plays and supports it still to this day. Promote excitement over what could be the next big unit change in HOTS. Promote it, don't say that its dying. All that accomplishes is turning people away from the game.
Hell I downloaded LoL after listening to your rant, THATS what you did. Congrats!
Im sorry, had to rant about this, in fact its the only real issue that's nearly ever made me rant like this, because people like me exist, people who LOVE Starcraft 2. We just all don't view it everyday and make bitch videos about it. Blizzard made an AMAZING game, my favourite ever game, and I have NO DOUBTS they will make HOTS an amazing and essential update to an already incredible game.
P.S. Its not a casual game on the ladder, exactly like BW, and the custom games(arcade) have plenty of the modes you complained it not having, like infinite money. Plenty of casual content mate, explore your game more, its truly amazing.
On October 23 2012 17:42 Azoryen wrote: The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay.
You only get out what you put in. Does chess lead to boring gameplay? It depends on the player. Similar to SC2. Like in chess, most games are boring, only a handful are remembered.
Are you kidding me? calling chess boring, wtf happening with TL people these days?
On October 23 2012 21:48 PauseBreak wrote: I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor)
And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen: It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed. It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it.
You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better.
You CAN balance the game for EVERYONE. You just need to forget about the absurd design idea that asymmetrical balance is about making races stronger at early/mid/late game. Make the 3 races different but balanced for the entire duration of a match-up, from start to finish, and the game will be better balanced to everyone, while more fun and less QQing.
No, you really can't. A Bronze player cannot use a unit the same way a Pro can. Its not going to happen. And FilterSc makes a great point that Blizzard should not cater to that Bronze because a casual can't utilize a unit that requires certain amount of micro and babysitting, like Tanks, BL's, or Colossus. You cannot make the 3 races different and not have asymmetrical design. It would be playing the same races just with different names. I think I'm going to stop, because I really think I'm getting trolled. Its so hard to tell now if people are being serious or not. And the more I think about your post the more I think its not.
Broodwar is believed to be a great game for pros. I played some Broodwar versus a friend before SC2 came out. It was fun even though we sucked horribly. It is possible to have fun with a game which does not care much about balance for scrubs like me, all one needs is to accept the game as the actual game.
Starcraft 2 managed to get an RTS game into western esports. Well done, Blizzard.
I played and followed WC3 and remember the atmosphere when WC3 was played on an event: The crowd gasped at TPs because they wanted the game to be over to see Counter-Strike. When WC3 was replaced with SC2, the crowd hold the breath for the games.
SC2 is not yet all it could be, but it still is an extremely good and deep RTS game.
I'm not excited about SC2 like I used to be. And I think many viewers are in my boat, it's part of the reason that viewership is declining.
But let's be honest, there's nothing we can do about it. It's all, entirely, 100% on Blizzard to wake up and start making an exciting esport. Where carrier micro and marine splitting become the norm, and fungal and forcefield are removed from the game. Where I can watch my 100th game that week and not see another 10 minute immortal sentry push that looks like any other, but marvel at players doing something so perfectly (and understanding how difficult it is) on a huge stage with tons of pressure.
If Blizzard insists on making a game instead of an esport, all the talk, all the posts, they mean nothing.
On October 23 2012 21:48 PauseBreak wrote: I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor)
And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen: It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed. It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it.
You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better.
You CAN balance the game for EVERYONE. You just need to forget about the absurd design idea that asymmetrical balance is about making races stronger at early/mid/late game. Make the 3 races different but balanced for the entire duration of a match-up, from start to finish, and the game will be better balanced to everyone, while more fun and less QQing.
No, you really can't. A Bronze player cannot use a unit the same way a Pro can. Its not going to happen. And FilterSc makes a great point that Blizzard should not cater to that Bronze because a casual can't utilize a unit that requires certain amount of micro and babysitting, like Tanks, BL's, or Colossus. You cannot make the 3 races different and not have asymmetrical design. It would be playing the same races just with different names. I think I'm going to stop, because I really think I'm getting trolled. Its so hard to tell now if people are being serious or not. And the more I think about your post the more I think its not.
The game should have micro intensive units and it's even better if the most micro intensive units are also the most decisive ones. Then you have a clear separation in skill level based on how effectively people can use those units. Look at BW: tanks, reavers and lurkers are all very different and all separate the best from the rest. Micro intensive are great and even noobs love to use them! And they are not a balance problem if both sides use them poorly.
The problem with 'asymmetrical design' is making one race stronger in midgame and another race stronger lategame. This promotes turtling, deathball and creates obvious and repetitive gameplay.
Also, the effect this has in lower leagues is that it's much harder for a casual to survive that stage when his race is weaker. Consider TvP for example, a pro T knows he MUST do damage when he's stronger (midgame MMM) to stand a change in the lategame. Even Blizzard has admitted this. And the pro knows that and he knows HOW to do it. When you force a player to pressure midgame (or any stage) to stand a chance, you are basically requiring a lot of multitasking from that player. It's something pros respond to well, but casuals don't.
Why not have asymmetrical races but have them balanced at all stages? Don't say it's impossible because I don't believe that for 1 second.
"OMG GUYS!!! There's a game out there, and have you seen the UI?!?!? Gameplay sucks, but the features are just incredible in the menus!!! Stats and figures!!! YES!!!!
I lolled so hard when the OP mentioned DOTA 2 having the best UI in e-sports.
And, why is it a bad thing that MVP was in "yet another final"? So there is a pro player who is really good at the game, a true champ. Isn't that a good thing? Would you prefer a fully new roster every season? Maybe you just don't like that particular player, but that isn't his fault.
A lot of viewers (like myself) are very excited to see the BW pros in MLG and other tournaments, it will be great to see what they have to offer and how they will compete with players like MVP and MC, etc. What will they bring to the game? Can't wait to see.
LoL having a "radical shakeup" is just evidence that the game is as boring as watching paint dry. In SC2, a new map pool will change things dynamically enough (true, often in a frustrating way, we can all agree that hopefully Blizzard gets some better map making talent). LoL has one map for competitive play, and so they must make larger changes elsewhere in order to change anything at all.
That is not to say that SC2 is perfect, there are plenty of posts basing FF, Vortex, and fungal, and these things are def problems for the meta-game and for map making innovation, hopefully they will be addressed at some point. However, there is no crisis. So LoL has a large following? SC2 can benefit from a growth in E-Sports generally.
But you're right, those buttons in DOTA 2 sure are pretty.
Ok, good opinions which led me to think about it, i will touch separately on some points you made on the vod.
- In-game streams and tourneys: cool, who do they appeal to? hardcore fans or to some casual trying the feature which is good, but i honestly prefer to keep the content out of the game as myself found out about SC via a youtube commentary
- Do the hardcore sustain the community, the game and the developers? NO
- Professionals will keep the game alive (as in out of a niche)? not likely, as you play BW lately, are you still hoping for an update?
- LoL it's huge, why? it's free and it's an easier game to get into and to play without going into depression, do i know anything about the pro scene? nope, does it appeal to sponsors as much? don't think so (see the average LoL gamer and disposable income) and probably wouldn't need/want a high end keyboard...
- The average gamer? will read a review about SC think has cool story and campaign, play it, try out multiplayer, lose and never touch the game again and that's why i think IS and WILL be recognized as a skill game with sponsors knowing that
- Casual side: BW vs SC2? a "casual" will never go further than the campaign anyways and you can be a dick in bronze league as well if you just want to build BC
- Going to the previous point i think blizzard is doing well to not turn the game too hardcore because in that way will become niche sooner and they would have less resources to make it better overall
- Was BW better? depends, harder? probably because limitations in game design and tech, can you still prefer it? absolutely
- SC2 failed..where was Starcraft two years after release? after how long we've seen it reach the full potential? was Blizzard still selling it well? .....
- Are players switching game?, as all the rest of the world changes job.. shit happens, people changes..i wouldn't expect to see the same exact scene in 10 years anyways
All this to say that probably people feeling sad at the pace of changes probably wasn't around at BW early years and doesn't appreciate the intricacy and probabilities of something becoming that big and memorable, at least for Koreans at a "out of a basement" sort of way, and there we go into other discussions about a nation growth rate, economics, tech and pure coincidences. And more likely than not victims of being of the "yearly release", "need to blow stuff up or get bored" generations
- Do you like it? play it, you don't? then please just...
On December 27 2012 16:32 Gendo wrote: Ok, good opinions which led me to think about it, i will touch separately on some points you made on the vod.
- In-game streams and tourneys: cool, who do they appeal to? hardcore fans or to some casual trying the feature which is good, but i honestly prefer to keep the content out of the game as myself found out about SC via a youtube commentary
- Do the hardcore sustain the community, the game and the developers? NO
- Professionals will keep the game alive (as in out of a niche)? not likely, as you play BW lately, are you still hoping for an update?
- LoL it's huge, why? it's free and it's an easier game to get into and to play without going into depression, do i know anything about the pro scene? nope, does it appeal to sponsors as much? don't think so (see the average LoL gamer and disposable income) and probably wouldn't need/want a high end keyboard...
- The average gamer? will read a review about SC think has cool story and campaign, play it, try out multiplayer, lose and never touch the game again and that's why i think IS and WILL be recognized as a skill game with sponsors knowing that
- Casual side: BW vs SC2? a "casual" will never go further than the campaign anyways and you can be a dick in bronze league as well if you just want to build BC
- Going to the previous point i think blizzard is doing well to not turn the game too hardcore because in that way will become niche sooner and they would have less resources to make it better overall
- Was BW better? depends, harder? probably because limitations in game design and tech, can you still prefer it? absolutely
- SC2 failed..where was Starcraft two years after release? after how long we've seen it reach the full potential? was Blizzard still selling it well? .....
- Are players switching game?, as all the rest of the world changes job.. shit happens, people changes..i wouldn't expect to see the same exact scene in 10 years anyways
All this to say that probably people feeling sad at the pace of changes probably wasn't around at BW early years and doesn't appreciate the intricacy and probabilities of something becoming that big and memorable, at least for Koreans at a "out of a basement" sort of way, and there we go into other discussions about a nation growth rate, economics, tech and pure coincidences. And more likely than not victims of being of the "yearly release", "need to blow stuff up or get bored" generations
- Do you like it? play it, you don't? then please just...
1) imo I would disagree with a lot of what you just said
2) I don't think you've added anything worth bumping the thread for so I won't go into it really..