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On October 19 2012 14:17 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
i never knew roro and curious were much weaker. You would think "OP zerg" would allow them to do better right? Like others have said, if this was anyone else posting it would have been locked by now.
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On October 19 2012 14:17 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok.
Much weaker opponents including 2 code S Zergs, you know that oh-so-OP race with Infestors, who according to mr. Sase's recent tweets need to just make Infestors to get wins from players much better than them? So why didn't they just make Infestors and get top 2?
Oh, and why do you think 7 out of 10 Korean players were those "highest caliber Protosses on the planet"? Could it be because they eliminated all the "higest caliber" players of other races in the Korean qualifiers?
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On October 19 2012 14:24 Insoleet wrote:Maybe SaSe should look at Brown. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375649Brown literraly said that : Show nested quote +A lot of Protosses are saying that it is really hard to defeat a Zerg in the late game. How do you feel about the infestor/brood lord composition?
I really want to show what you should do soon for the GSTL. I had been feeling that late game Zerg wall for about two months now but I think I've overcome it. And I think my skills have gotten better ever since I've figured this out as well. So, protoss can win against lategame zerg. Brown was already going for long macro games 1 year ago against zerg, and win. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291955Maybe thats why he is a good protoss at the lategame stages. Most protosses finished the game with a 2 base / 3 base all in. Not a lot of protoss never tried to practice their lategame. QFT, look at players like select, BITbyBIT. They are examples of terrans who all in to fame only to be brought back to the ground when their all ins fail. Its logical to think that when you all in all the time, your macro would be shit and that is what most toss are doing at the moment.
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On October 19 2012 14:17 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok. RoRo and curious are much weaker? lol. can't believe we have stuffs like this.
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On October 19 2012 14:17 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok. Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg?
The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden.
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On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
The game is not balanced. Using tournament results to claim or justify balance is unrealistic; everyone who plays the "WCS Korea" card has to answer "what about GSL Season 4"? It goes around and around, because in high-level play, too much revolves around mindgames based on the opening build order. Protoss players can get very far on their PvP and PvT alone, only to hit a brick wall when they run into a top Z player.
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I'd struggle to believe this post came from anyone in GM leagues, let alone a professional gamer, honestly.
This is not only incredibly embarassing for you, but a set of some of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever read on this forum regard balance changes.
In fact, if this was anyone but a pro-gamer, this thread would be instantly closed 100% for balance whining, I'm honestly shocked this hasn't been yet. Absouloutly agree.
A timer on spawning pool, (10 pool latest it can be) So I can always nexus first. Make the pylon raduis bigger I have trouble warping in late game. Nerf infestor to the ground, its good unit. Creep spread too good I can't have free map control. I can't send 1 probe out and get a full scout of thier base because the zerg has lings outside. Zerg has too many spines and i can't kill him!
Disgusting. Makes me feel sick.
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On October 19 2012 14:29 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ. In other words, not let zerg win at any moment? Dude, you really got to read what you are typing.
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On October 19 2012 14:29 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
As if zerg didnt have to play a perfect early/midgame to not loose to all ins :D
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On October 19 2012 14:29 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
Then can you please teach me how to stop 2 base Startale-esque Immortal/sentry base timing. XD
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On October 19 2012 14:29 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ.
So it's because all the Zergs are bad and Protoss have been playing perfect to overcome the odds stacked all against the poor sad Zealots that they got almost all the seeds for WCS then... OK, got it. 1st and 3rd on WCG Korea, that's perfect play, opponents sucked. Last GSL, same.. This GSL, only semis, must have made one mistake, I suppose, and that was enough to lose even though his opponent made way more, right? OSL finalist, played perfect, opponents sucked even though they were all OP. Needs drastic changes, that's for sure...
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Nothing against sase or anything, but honestly the whole OP feels like one big balance whine.
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On October 19 2012 14:29 JackReacher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. I think anyone who is knowledgeable about the game would say that PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup currently, and that some pretty drastic changes are necessary to do something to make it more realistic for Protoss so that toss doesn't have to play "perfect" in early-game to not insta-die to lings in mineral lines, in mid-game to not get over-run by speed roach/ling, and in late-game to have a snowball's chance in hell against Infestor, Broodlord, and 100 spine/spore crawler. This matchup is very lopsided, almost anyone can see it now. Ask top Terran players how they feel about PvZ. The game is not balanced. Using tournament results to claim or justify balance is unrealistic; everyone who plays the "WCS Korea" card has to answer "what about GSL Season 4"? It goes around and around, because in high-level play, too much revolves around mindgames based on the opening build order. Protoss players can get very far on their PvP and PvT alone, only to hit a brick wall when they run into a top Z player. When was the last time a zerg won with a 6pool? Hell, 6 pool doesnt even work against hatch first zergs anymore. Then to go with that, when was the last time a zerg won in the early game from a ling runby in ZvP? If the protoss doesnt wall.. maybe... but that is the fault of the protoss not the zerg. I remember a time in BW where a protoss had to wall against zerg too. I dont know if it was like that near the end, but it was when I played.
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Thanks for giving some credibility to common sentiments Sase!
edit: if someone can show how 6 pool doesn't put you even with toss go for it. otherwise qq elsewhere.
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On October 19 2012 14:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 14:17 shockaslim wrote:On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok. Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg? The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden. Everyone knows that WCS asia was stacked with protoss. You are saying 6p and 2z in asia? Let's look who realistically had any chance of getting anywhere in that tournament: P: Seed, Parting, Creator, Squirtle, Rain, Liquid'Hero, hero T: no one Z: Curious, Roro
That must be why the top 8 were 6p and 2z. WCS korea was basically the same. There were no good terrans, and very few good zerg, and a ton of good protoss. Honestly, the game is balanced because protoss/terran win so often with 2/3 base pseudo-allins. And I think that BLs are not the big problem for late game XvZ, but its the infestor. In fact, BLs are very weak if you can actually attack them.
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On October 19 2012 14:29 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:Show nested quote +I'd struggle to believe this post came from anyone in GM leagues, let alone a professional gamer, honestly.
This is not only incredibly embarassing for you, but a set of some of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever read on this forum regard balance changes.
In fact, if this was anyone but a pro-gamer, this thread would be instantly closed 100% for balance whining, I'm honestly shocked this hasn't been yet. Absouloutly agree. A timer on spawning pool, (10 pool latest it can be) So I can always nexus first. Make the pylon raduis bigger I have trouble warping in late game. Nerf infestor to the ground, its good unit. Creep spread too good I can't have free map control. I can't send 1 probe out and get a full scout of thier base because the zerg has lings outside. Zerg has too many spines and i can't kill him! Disgusting. Makes me feel sick. in that case i want a timer on forge so i can go 3 base without getting cannoned
creep is worthless agaisnt toss, there first push clears it all out then you have nothing impossible to push it past mid field unless you have your army babysitting it
i cant send out one ling to scout cause you have a wall
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Well I like lategame PvZ, but right now it mostly feels that the Zerg has no idea what to do unless you try to Vortex them. Some more intelligent unit use by Protoss and Zerg would be in trouble, but its not like they could adapt. I am rather interested to see when the current PvZ lategame changes, but thanks to HotS beta many don't see motivated to think about new stuff. Other then that I want Fungal to only slow a unit by 99.9%, so commands like targetfire aren't broken. It is easier to just press S instead of giving out 20 new commands every fungal. The only annoyance I have with Fungal is that it selects my units and presses S. Mass mind control sucks.
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I don't know if I like all of your suggestions, but the issues you bring up I definitely agree with
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On October 19 2012 14:36 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 14:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 19 2012 14:17 shockaslim wrote:On October 19 2012 13:58 FakeDeath wrote: Have Sase watched WCS Asia and WCS Korea? Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment.
Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. You mean the highest caliber Protosses on the planet did well against MUCH weaker opponents? Yeaaa ok. Oh you mean the highest caliber protoss that beat all of the highest caliber zerg in the WCS korean nationals? Where all but 1 zerg was knocked out by the RO8 (7 protoss 1 zerg in RO8)? Then WCS asia the same thing happened again with 6 protoss and 2 zerg? The fact is, the game is actually essentially balanced. Mothership needs tweaking and as a result BL's would too, but everything else is golden. Everyone knows that WCS asia was stacked with protoss. You are saying 6p and 2z in asia? Let's look who realistically had any chance of getting anywhere in that tournament: P: Seed, Parting, Creator, Squirtle, Rain, Liquid'Hero, hero T: no one Z: Curious, Roro That must be why the top 8 were 6p and 2z. WCS korea was basically the same. There were no good terrans, and very few good zerg, and a ton of good protoss. Honestly, the game is balanced because protoss/terran win so often with 2/3 base pseudo-allins. And I think that BLs are not the big problem for late game XvZ, but its the infestor. In fact, BLs are very weak if you can actually attack them. WCS korea zergs that participated (that had a chance): 4B Coca Curious Leenock Yugioh Soulkey Roro Jaedong
Yea, those guys all suck. Which is why Miya and Roro were the only ones that made it through.
EDIT: And Hyun was knocked out in the qualifiers even.
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On October 19 2012 11:53 ToXSiK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. This. Don't know if you read it properly... assuming you didn't.. he quite clearly said that only one or two of them would be good.
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