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One of the main flaws/imbalances in the PvZ match-up right now is how Zerg pretty much has 100% free scouting at will anytime they want to move the overlords in.. While as Protoss it is nearly impossible to get a full scout after the 3:30-4 min mark.
Either the overlord speed buff needs to get nerfed back down to what it was.. OR the queen range buff needs to be reduced again (either one, not saying both). The glaring problem with these buffs to Zerg, is that both of these changes were intended to help Zerg out in ZvT.. And it just ended up also buffing the shit out of zerg in ZvP also by making probe scouting nearly impossible, and giving Zerg an even easier time scouting the already transparent Protoss main.
The majority of the complaints about Protoss early-game v.s Zerg are mainly as result of P's inability to reliably scout zerg.. Its more of a frustrating "roll the dice" / "guessing game" type of thing right now.
Any Zerg players reading my post here thinking "LOL Blasphemy!!"... I would urge you to roll as P if you're Masters+ and try playing a few PvZ's on ladder if your protoss play isn't too bad. You will see what I mean right away about how awful it is trying to scout out one of the 8 early game cheeses you could be hit with within the first 8 mins of the game v.s Z.
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On October 20 2012 09:14 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
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On October 20 2012 09:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:14 ZAiNs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment.
You have speedlings (disposable units that can move at pretty much the speed of light across the map and snipe out expos), etc. Please don't ever say that Zerg has bad harass options at any point in the game.
As long as speedlings exist in this game.. Zerg will never have "bad" or "mediocre" harass options.
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Blazinghand
United States25545 Posts
On October 20 2012 09:02 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 08:57 SirisH wrote:On October 20 2012 00:07 sitromit wrote: Sase's Korean TLPD record vs Z = 35%
For comparison, Rain = 70%, Squirtle = 63%, JYP = 66%.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time. vote for sticky Yup, Sase I thought you were above this. I am disappoint.
Ugh, what sitromit wrote was misleading enough to basically be false.
First: SaSe's International TLPD vs Z record is 50%. Second: SaSe's Korean TLPD doesn't have any vs Z games since February 2012.
If you're going to throw numbers at people, they need to be relevant numbers with meaning behind them. I'm disappointed in you, sitromit. Very disappointed.
What SaSe is saying here may or may not have merit, but judge it based on the merits of his arguments, not based on flawed numbers that are flung at you. At least do some research.
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On October 20 2012 09:21 Enzymatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 09:14 ZAiNs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment. You have speedlings (disposable units that can move at pretty much the speed of light across the map and snipe out expos), etc. Please don't ever say that Zerg has bad harass options at any point in the game. As long as speedlings exist in this game.. Zerg will never have "bad" or "mediocre" harass options.
Speed is irrelevant when you can warp in defences instantly at the harassment location. Essentially the mineral sinks in the lategame for P and Z are not equal. Lings/Spinecrawlers vs Cannons/Warp Prisms/Zealots. The latter does much better against expos than the former IMO.
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On October 20 2012 09:29 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:21 Enzymatic wrote:On October 20 2012 09:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 09:14 ZAiNs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment. You have speedlings (disposable units that can move at pretty much the speed of light across the map and snipe out expos), etc. Please don't ever say that Zerg has bad harass options at any point in the game. As long as speedlings exist in this game.. Zerg will never have "bad" or "mediocre" harass options. Speed is irrelevant when you can warp in defences instantly at the harassment location. Essentially the mineral sinks in the lategame for P and Z are not equal. Lings/Spinecrawlers vs Cannons/Warp Prisms/Zealots. The latter does much better against expos than the former IMO.
Since you are talking about lategame, you must know that reactively warping 5 units lategame is essentially useless since you don't have the firepower to repel anything in time, and that warping more than 5 units means you always keep 15 or 20 free supply so that you can warp, which is pretty much the same as making 10 to 15 units stay at home for every race. Protoss cannot hold late game harrass without splitting his main army; reactive warpins are only to buy time.
Zerg, on the other hand, has the speed of light units to be able to react to harrassement way faster than any other race. Also they have the most unforgiving unit (infestor). Also being able to free up worker supply by building static (but movable?) defenses late game is pretty damn useful.
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On October 20 2012 09:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:14 ZAiNs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment. Forcing a Protoss to spend minerals on 10 Zealots with only Zerglings sounds like good harassment to me. And then there's baneling/ling drops, Infested Terran (yea try warping in stuff vs. a bunch of them), mutalisk (not really late-game but still). Protoss harass is nothing compared to Zerg harass, especially late late game when there are spines everywhere.
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On October 20 2012 09:50 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:19 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 09:14 ZAiNs wrote:On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O In the late game yes, that's what I think. Warp in is very forgivable in response to harassment. Forcing a Protoss to spend minerals on 10 Zealots with only Zerglings sounds like good harassment to me. And then there's baneling/ling drops, Infested Terran (yea try warping in stuff vs. a bunch of them), mutalisk (not really late-game but still). Protoss harass is nothing compared to Zerg harass, especially late late game when there are spines everywhere.
Doesn't sound good to me. That warpin saved your expo, a lot of your workers and killed a LOT of lings. An equivalent warpin at a zerg expo will kill the expo without fail. Yes zerg have a fast unit to respond to harass, but that unit is the zergling. A unit that trades very unfavourably with its mineral sink equivalent - the unit most likely to be harassing in this manner in the late game.
Infested terrans are good yes. Nerfing burrow movement would make them less so. In my experience (say split map entombed), ling runbys don't do much against cannoned expos. Zerg harass doesn't need a nerf.
(I actually forgot about baneling drops, so this may change my mind a little if I can work them back into my play)
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Potential Infestor Fungal Nerf
Remove "Stick to ground" feature of fungal growth for land units however keep it for air units. Increase radius to hit more units and a 25% reduction in speed and not be able to cast spells (Whether or not this includes stim I cannot decide however it should definitely affect stalkers because they have a faster move speed than marines without stim SEE BELOW) inclusive of air units AND Make fungal active for longer, idk how much longer but make it longer so that A) it cannot be cast every couple of seconds halting movement and causing massive dmg and it forces micro from players because they can still move -25% and fungal is chained far slower. e.g. I agree with removing Motherhship because not WC3 etc. This way things like blink stalkers for example: More of them are fungaled, they cannot blink away and have their move speed reduced by 25% however they can run away which seems still really bad however I believe it will force Protoss with blink stalkers to spread them far more to minimalise fungal growth spread and to allow for blinks stalkers to be more easily micro'd to the back whilst waiting for fungal to wear off so that they are not completely immobile during fungal
Like to hear what you think.
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Another balance whine that the community thinks is okay because it's a pro player that said it... But if random platinum player "X" makes the same exact post with the same analysis, everyone would be telling him he should learn to play the game, and would probably be temporarily banned for making the thread.
It's really interesting just how similar the TL forums are to the Blizzard forums but the TL forums are "better" because that's where the pros go to complain about balance.
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Ok. It's fair to say this came out very wrong and I didn't get the response I wanted at all. Thanks to everyone who responded more than 'biased motherfucker'. It has been nice to read your views aswell. I wanted to open a discussion, I failed. I should have split it up better I think to what should be done to WOL and what should be done to HOTS. The nexus cannon thing was obviously a HOTS change.
It's ok the community goes at me and say I'm full of shit and all changes sucks. I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. As protoss it's a little bit annoying, but for terrans it must be so much worse. The thing about thing about timing on pool was mainly because of lower lower leagues. It's not fun for anyone below GM to face a 6pool and lose even if they scout it at 9 pylon. It removes so much fun in the game. 6pools is not easy to stop at all. But like I said, I would totally fine with a rampblocker you can salvage since then if you scout zerg 9 scout it's possible to hold of the 6pool outside your base(like on ladder maps but these days but on the same time there is no reason to practise it since all tournaments use ramp blockers).
About toss I said they should make toss pylons 10 seconds delay for warpins, might not seem like alot but would help alot against every kind of 2 base allin. It's 10 seconds extra zerg gets to kill a pylon. I said remove mothership. Guess darkforce and gowser consider this a nerf to zerg too. I even said phoenix could be removed or reworked. I meant the ability to lift should be removed obviously. But this was more of a hots change but I would be ok with it removed in WOL because it makes pvp so random atm. But it's hard to argue with them when they just tell me I'm biased. I guess they are enjoying the freeride they are still having. It's hard to argue with someone who responds like that. The 'buffs' they talk about is not really buffs I think. How can they argue about it should be possible to run straight through a warped in zealot or a probe.
Most importantly I hope AI changes, rampblocker issue, map position and the priority list gets fixed. I think these are big issues atm.
And last I wanted to say thank you all for reading and for your response. As I said it turned out bad. But now I know until next time, or I mean, there wont be any next time. At least not here. This was the wrong place to post it for sure so sorry to everyone I offended and wasted time of. Happy news is Blizzard took notice and invited me to their private forums so guess somethings were good ideas or changes at least. As I said before, I didn't want to make 10 changes to infestors and most of these thigns were just ideas that _COULD_ be implented, not had to be. More like brainstorming about things that could have been done. I want a game where you can make small mistakes and catch up by playing perfect. Take care everyone and be happy every day
/SaSe
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On October 19 2012 11:45 ssg wrote: Protoss crying about protoss. Shocker.
A starcraft player crying about starcraft balance. Shocker
FTFY
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Thank you sase thank you this is so true PvZ is so stupid. I myself cant take playing against them and I just get mad because they keep remaxing to 200/200 while you cant and you only have three bases and then the zerg takes a ton more and you just have to hope you can defend.
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One day there will be a whine thread about buffing protosses defense against mutas, while still being able to contemplate leaving their base without losing it. Until then, thoroughly disappointed. Infestors... big whoop. And you guys have horrible intentions/foresight. Sase is grandmasters on the Korean server. How many non Koreans can say that? You want to bash the guy for not agreeing with his opinions? Stupid. All that does is lead to the top players remaining silent. Personally, I'd rather hear what they have to say whether I agree or not. You probably don't agree with how they play the game either, thinking your way is better or simply not understanding why they do what they do. Does that make you more right than them? No, probably just more clueless than them. The better one is at the game, odds are the chances of them being in the right/ideas on balance increase. Whether they're right or not, more reverence should be shown even if you're in disagreement.
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Also, make storm do more damage to gateway units, I'm tired of mass zealots and templars a-moving and raping my army. Plus... BW PVP!
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True story, I would love toss pylon to be like the terran depot, it would make so much difference against zerg, also I think terran has too many advantages in trade base situations, cause we can't lift up our nexus and are always being revealed, all the terran has to do is lift his buildings, and if he has less army/no army, just wait for a draw when toss has no nexus ans not enough minerals to build one other, even if he has been dominating the game, and has more groud army than the terran at the end. Won't tell you that a 2 medivacs drop easily snipes nexuses.
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On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote:Ok. It's fair to say this came out very wrong and I didn't get the response I wanted at all. Thanks to everyone who responded more than 'biased motherfucker'. It has been nice to read your views aswell. I wanted to open a discussion, I failed. I should have split it up better I think to what should be done to WOL and what should be done to HOTS. The nexus cannon thing was obviously a HOTS change. It's ok the community goes at me and say I'm full of shit and all changes sucks. I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. As protoss it's a little bit annoying, but for terrans it must be so much worse. The thing about thing about timing on pool was mainly because of lower lower leagues. It's not fun for anyone below GM to face a 6pool and lose even if they scout it at 9 pylon. It removes so much fun in the game. 6pools is not easy to stop at all. But like I said, I would totally fine with a rampblocker you can salvage since then if you scout zerg 9 scout it's possible to hold of the 6pool outside your base(like on ladder maps but these days but on the same time there is no reason to practise it since all tournaments use ramp blockers). About toss I said they should make toss pylons 10 seconds delay for warpins, might not seem like alot but would help alot against every kind of 2 base allin. It's 10 seconds extra zerg gets to kill a pylon. I said remove mothership. Guess darkforce and gowser consider this a nerf to zerg too. I even said phoenix could be removed or reworked. I meant the ability to lift should be removed obviously. But this was more of a hots change but I would be ok with it removed in WOL because it makes pvp so random atm. But it's hard to argue with them when they just tell me I'm biased. I guess they are enjoying the freeride they are still having. It's hard to argue with someone who responds like that. The 'buffs' they talk about is not really buffs I think. How can they argue about it should be possible to run straight through a warped in zealot or a probe. Most importantly I hope AI changes, rampblocker issue, map position and the priority list gets fixed. I think these are big issues atm. And last I wanted to say thank you all for reading and for your response. As I said it turned out bad. But now I know until next time, or I mean, there wont be any next time. At least not here. This was the wrong place to post it for sure so sorry to everyone I offended and wasted time of. Happy news is Blizzard took notice and invited me to their private forums so guess somethings were good ideas or changes at least. As I said before, I didn't want to make 10 changes to infestors and most of these thigns were just ideas that _COULD_ be implented, not had to be. More like brainstorming about things that could have been done. I want a game where you can make small mistakes and catch up by playing perfect. Take care everyone and be happy every day /SaSe
just stop this is embarrassing
User was warned for this post
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4713 Posts
Thanks for the thread SaSe, its sad that you received so many flames, people are too quick to look at stats and too easily forget that at MLG Spring you actually went trough and killed Violet, Leenock and Stephano to place top 4, your PvZ is more then adequate to be relevant, but alas people only see what they want to see.
I'm glad you got a invite to Blizzard's private forums, keep posting and make the most out of it, take any good ideas you have and see. Maybe, if enough people post, Blizzard will take notice and listen. Don't give up, we need people to speak up when they perceive a problem.
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so funny that the majority that doesn't agree is zerg which is the best race that everyone seems to play
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I dont understand why people in this thread think, Sase decleares zerg as op! He is talking about something else completely. His opinion is, that Toss forgives mistakes from the player the least in comparison to zerg. He backs that up stating the easy recovery of zerg from a 6 pool, although there is a high chance protoss can die to it and the unability for protoss to score build order wins like zerg. Moreover late game in pvz, where every competent zerg can get to if he plays his cards right. (mutas, 100 drones, 5 hatches----> infestors 20-30 spine crawlers) . In lategame toss has no reliable composition to deal with bl/infestor like sase said. And you should believe him, he plays this game competitively and has all time in the world to figure it out. Moreover zerg has fungal which is basicly stopping all micro from protoss. If toss makes one misstep he looses half of his army. Defending for zerg has become a lot easier and still toss has to place perfect forcefields to stay alive. Then he makes a lot of Changes to adress these Design Issues. I agree with his statement in that zerg is the easiest to play and the most forviging race at least from master- gsl. But I also think Terran is the least forgiving race, we should keep that in mind. Then however this post contributes directly to the problems at hand in PvZ. Bottom line: It is not a balance post its a post dealing with design issues
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