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On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth
(Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings)
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this really just sounds like more of a protoss whine thread.
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i didn't think pros cry that much. appreciation for Sase = no longer existant
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What the hell is wrong with this community? Sase never said anything about all of his ideas being "needed changes", he posted a bunch of things saying that a combination of 2-3 of them being implemented, while also making some changes to P to compensate for balance would make the game more enjoyable to both play and watch.
Its fine if you think his ideas are stupid, its ok if you think he is abad player and his opinion sucks - but its downright unfair to call him a balance whiner who just wants zerg nerfed. The OP was pretty clearly not a "zomg nerf zerg!!!" post, idk how are people seeing it as such....
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short and sweet post, infested terran eggs should have 0 armor and fungal should slow down units(while still preventing blink). interceptors should regain health once back in the carrier
On October 20 2012 18:46 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth (Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings)
2 armor =]
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On October 20 2012 09:16 Enzymatic wrote: One of the main flaws/imbalances in the PvZ match-up right now is how Zerg pretty much has 100% free scouting at will anytime they want to move the overlords in.. While as Protoss it is nearly impossible to get a full scout after the 3:30-4 min mark.
Either the overlord speed buff needs to get nerfed back down to what it was.. OR the queen range buff needs to be reduced again (either one, not saying both). The glaring problem with these buffs to Zerg, is that both of these changes were intended to help Zerg out in ZvT.. And it just ended up also buffing the shit out of zerg in ZvP also by making probe scouting nearly impossible, and giving Zerg an even easier time scouting the already transparent Protoss main.
The majority of the complaints about Protoss early-game v.s Zerg are mainly as result of P's inability to reliably scout zerg.. Its more of a frustrating "roll the dice" / "guessing game" type of thing right now.
Any Zerg players reading my post here thinking "LOL Blasphemy!!"... I would urge you to roll as P if you're Masters+ and try playing a few PvZ's on ladder if your protoss play isn't too bad. You will see what I mean right away about how awful it is trying to scout out one of the 8 early game cheeses you could be hit with within the first 8 mins of the game v.s Z.
This isn't a zerg nerf scenario. Those zerg buffs you mentioned were warranted and improved the game as a whole IMO. THe fact is protoss scouting is lacklustre in all matchups, even PvP, where it just isn't a balance issue due to symmetry. Hopefully this is being addressed in HoTS with the capability of the mommacore to scout and recent changes to hallucinate.
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About the creep tumor thing, isn't there plenty of opportunity to make a bigger deal out of clearing creep as Protoss? Perhaps by having a warp prism+stalker/zealot unit drops+observer hit squad. More observers, more active creep clearing. Creep is important both to spread and to clear. Is this really that hard to do as Protoss? I don't see Terrans having many problems taking care of creep, and they don't have a cloaked detector, plus, warp prisms with speed upgrade coupled with a couple of observers should be able to make creep clearing rather easy (and fast).
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On October 20 2012 18:40 Brainiak wrote: I dont understand why people in this thread think, Sase decleares zerg as op! He is talking about something else completely. His opinion is, that Toss forgives mistakes from the player the least in comparison to zerg.
And yet Zerg has the most unforgiving macro mechanic of all three races. Being "too busy" to inject will lose you games all the time. Chrono is basically a part of your build and mostly irrelevant afterwards and you can always drop late MULE-s, albeit with some opportunity cost. I can mention many other more relevant examples... if you do hatch first and get cannon rushed, a small mistake in defending the cannon rush will lose you the game. Not scouting a 2gate in time will lose you the game. Overdroning just one cycle against any gate/robo all-in will lose you the game. Not splitting your broodlords just once in a battle will lose you the game.
He backs that up stating the easy recovery of zerg from a 6 pool, although there is a high chance protoss can die to it and the unability for protoss to score build order wins like zerg. Moreover late game in pvz, where every competent zerg can get to if he plays his cards right. (mutas, 100 drones, 5 hatches----> infestors 20-30 spine crawlers) . In lategame toss has no reliable composition to deal with bl/infestor like sase said. And you should believe him, he plays this game competitively and has all time in the world to figure it out. Moreover zerg has fungal which is basicly stopping all micro from protoss. If toss makes one misstep he looses half of his army.
Zerg has no composition to deal with Protoss mid/late game except bl/infestor/queen/spinecrawler. Moreover, Protoss has vortex which basically can kill your entire army if you make one control error.
Defending for zerg has become a lot easier and still toss has to place perfect forcefields to stay alive. Then he makes a lot of Changes to adress these Design Issues. I agree with his statement in that zerg is the easiest to play and the most forviging race at least from master- gsl. But I also think Terran is the least forgiving race, we should keep that in mind. Then however this post contributes directly to the problems at hand in PvZ. Bottom line: It is not a balance post its a post dealing with design issues
Bottom line: it's a biased balanced post, much like your own. It doesn't even attempt to really explore the issues from all sides. Compare that to Gretorp's post, for example, and you will see what a design post looks like.
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why do you speak of yourself in 3rd person in the title of your post? that comes across as a little self-important...
thereis a lot of quite good "how to change sc2" threads already, what we didnt need is a subjective protoss balance whine thread masked as a "whats wrong with sc2" thread
also, most of your suggestions are awful tbh. a timer on building a pool? its nerfing all options in early game that brought us to the stale "macro for 10 minutes then slam deathballs into each other" metagame we have today
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On October 20 2012 19:17 summerloud wrote: why do you speak of yourself in 3rd person in the title of your post? that comes across as a little self-important...
Disregarding the rest of your post, pointing out something as insignificant as this is just spiteful and unnecessary.
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Agree with everything. If blizzard takes your ideas for hots, it will be very awesome.
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On October 20 2012 19:13 budar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 18:40 Brainiak wrote: I dont understand why people in this thread think, Sase decleares zerg as op! He is talking about something else completely. His opinion is, that Toss forgives mistakes from the player the least in comparison to zerg.
And yet Zerg has the most unforgiving macro mechanic of all three races. Being "too busy" to inject will lose you games all the time. Chrono is basically a part of your build and mostly irrelevant afterwards and you can always drop late MULE-s, albeit with some opportunity cost. I can mention many other more relevant examples... if you do hatch first and get cannon rushed, a small mistake in defending the cannon rush will lose you the game. Not scouting a 2gate in time will lose you the game. Overdroning just one cycle against any gate/robo all-in will lose you the game. Not splitting your broodlords just once in a battle will lose you the game. Show nested quote + He backs that up stating the easy recovery of zerg from a 6 pool, although there is a high chance protoss can die to it and the unability for protoss to score build order wins like zerg. Moreover late game in pvz, where every competent zerg can get to if he plays his cards right. (mutas, 100 drones, 5 hatches----> infestors 20-30 spine crawlers) . In lategame toss has no reliable composition to deal with bl/infestor like sase said. And you should believe him, he plays this game competitively and has all time in the world to figure it out. Moreover zerg has fungal which is basicly stopping all micro from protoss. If toss makes one misstep he looses half of his army.
Zerg has no composition to deal with Protoss mid/late game except bl/infestor/queen/spinecrawler. Moreover, Protoss has vortex which basically can kill your entire army if you make one control error. Show nested quote + Defending for zerg has become a lot easier and still toss has to place perfect forcefields to stay alive. Then he makes a lot of Changes to adress these Design Issues. I agree with his statement in that zerg is the easiest to play and the most forviging race at least from master- gsl. But I also think Terran is the least forgiving race, we should keep that in mind. Then however this post contributes directly to the problems at hand in PvZ. Bottom line: It is not a balance post its a post dealing with design issues
Bottom line: it's a biased balanced post, much like your own. It doesn't even attempt to really explore the issues from all sides. Compare that to Gretorp's post, for example, and you will see what a design post looks like.
I do not think zerg has the most unforgiving macro mechanic. If you dont warp in the units the exact moment wargate cooldown finishes. You see the parallel to queen inject. I played zerg myself a little bit and had no problem whatsoever managing inject. Thats the only macro you have to do, unit production is the easiest in the game. The only thing you could point out is the difficulty of zerg having to look away from the battle to manage inject. Again the same applies to warp in.
If you cant hold a canon rush you just dont know how to deal with it. just patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp and let another drone chase the probe. No micro involved! If he places a pylon just send additonal 3 drones to the pylon. The oportunity cost is not a hinderance because your expo got placed down so much earlier. Meanwhile toss has to micro the probe like crazy to avoid hits by the drone, which is thanks to a patch no longer possible, try to place down pylons which you cant do really because either the drone blocks or the probe gets hit again and possibly dies.
I know zerg has no other lategame option. Its another design error and Sase specifically draws out the problem of the votality of lategame pvz. Vortex is just too powerful either for toss or zerg if one infestor neurals the MS. This is an DESIGN error not a balance one
It is still not a balance post as I already elaborated. I didnt read gretorps post, maybe you could give me the link. Sases insight is a different one from gretorp. Sase is a pro gamer and makes his money by playing the game. We should have a comparable zerg and terran progamer express his opinon so we can have the best possible unbaised conclusion. Still i dont find anything comparable from terran and zerg progamers, but I am looking forward to it.
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There's a point a lot of people are missing. The point of the OP is not meant to suggest that protoss can't win vs zerg, or that there is a significant race imbalance. The point is that the way protoss currently is makes the game stupid. It's not about implement all of the changes Sase suggests to make life easier for protoss players, but game design problems that have to be addressed before the game is balanced.
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On October 20 2012 20:10 xtfftc wrote: There's a point a lot of people are missing. The point of the OP is not meant to suggest that protoss can't win vs zerg, or that there is a significant race imbalance. The point is that the way protoss currently is makes the game stupid. It's not about implement all of the changes Sase suggests to make life easier for protoss players, but game design problems that have to be addressed before the game is balanced.
If that were the case people would agree. But that's just not what he said, your post is a lot more intelligent than his.
People should stop defending him, it was a bad post.
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Basically zerg and Protoss have to be redesigned for HOTS. We know this already but it wont happen. Blizzard isn't proactive these days.
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well you are biased for sure but there are some very cool ideas anyway so good job.
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*You can't fungel something that's fungeled. This way stalkers would be able to blink away and not be stuck forever
The chain fungal is extremely annoying and does feel broken. There is realy nothing you can do after the first fungal hits besides seeing your units die. Storm you can at least move away. This is isue with air units even way more so then with stalkers. Chain fungal realy stands out for me as beeing the most broken thing. Mass spines is weird, gimmicky and annoying but toss should be able to break that i think (with mass colo and stalkers before he has bl) Movement makes mass spines for zerg a much better option then mass cannon or mass pf so maybe its a bit unfair indeed. The other things i dunno about Ai with infested terrans is annoying but making it the normal ai (attacking the closest unit) does not look great either,can think of several scenarios in wich it would turn out bad.
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standard TL community responses, most people not comprehending what sase says, trying to stigma him as a balance whiner when he really tries to be constructive, some downright insulting him anonymously while being 1000 times worse at the game than him and having much less insight, while sase is a really likeable person
he probably didn't see this coming
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I think Blizzard will have to listen to these great ideas - for the good of the game (not to mention their wallets -hence they will listen).
Thanks SaSe for spending your time on how to improve the RTS that all of us play. I hope Blizzard contacts you for more serious discussions. They need staff like you.
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So basicly what your saying is, lets make zerg completly useless to balance out the matchup. What you´re saying it will kinda balance PvZ, but your just ruining the TvZ matchup. I guess they could change a little bit the infestor to balance things out.
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