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*Infestors can throw infested terrans while underground. Doesn't really make sense to me either. *Give infestor a HIVE upgrade for moving underground. Now they just need burrow and they get to move for free. Infestors don't have a standard attack, I think it would be horrible to make both changes rather than just one or the other. Roaches with burrowed movement researched can unburrow and then attack workers and/or whatever else. Infestors don't have a standard attack. Just build a (or more than one) bloody cannon if you're concerned about them being able to use it while burrowed. I hold that opinion at least so long as someone would suggest delaying burrowed movement for infestors until AFTER a technology has been researched AFTER getting a Hive. Without thinking about it too much, I think the delay before being able to (move while burrowed) might be okay if you can still throw ITs when burrowed, but then you'd have to walk up and only move at the last moment, which sounds like pretty useless supposedly functionality. Putting things the other way around, while it might be fine for burrowed movement to be delayed, there might be some funky timings that get removed by the ability being delayed, which might be a shame and the (underground-thrown) ITs are the real concern, right? I don't see why you'd want both changes.
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the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
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From my experience i feel like if zerg had a staple unit they could use that transitions well into the late game the meta might be more diverse, but as of right now all zerg units that aren't infestors you want to get rid of in the mid-game because in the late-game they are shit. So if zerg isn't going to get a unit they can use all game and is viable in the late-game they will always have to revert back to bl/infestor to stand a chance.
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On October 19 2012 11:46 DcTceremony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it" Aren't you edgy
Maybe he should make a blog about it
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On October 19 2012 12:02 baubo wrote: I'm not good enough to weigh in on balance, but I just want to note that the first several paragraphs of Sase's post is basically exactly what people complain about BW PvZ since forever.
Yep. It's obviously a problem and always has been.
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On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
- Kited to death? Speedlings and roaches with Glial Reconstitution both out run Stalkers with and without blink respectively. Blink cannot be counted in 'kiting' though. - Balance incorporates all parts of the game. In a pure macro late game, I would be interested to see that particular statistic alone. Also, (biased sample size incoming), the super strong immortal sentry all-in 'seems' to be losing traction. That said, perhaps the ST version will catch on more and more people will ride on the success of Parting's PvZ. We'll see more of that in DH and the upcoming MLGs. - The cost of FF is terrain AND spread dependent. The cost of fungal is spread dependent. FF isn't just there for the early game. While it is nice having it against Bling busts, it is actually much more necessary for the mid game. For example, try pure zealot stalker immortal pushes at 10mins. They don't work. Removal of FF is extremely difficult to balance. I suspect that would require an entire ground-up re-work of Protoss and Gateway units AND their production mechanic.
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On October 19 2012 12:11 neobowman wrote: As a Zerg, I agree. At the very least in the scouting department. Unlike in SC1, you can't keep your probe alive in the opponent's base forever with good micro. Just doesn't happen. Toss needs a better early scout solution.
Yes, this is a big deal. I'm really hoping the mothership core fixes this... we will see.
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On October 19 2012 12:26 Doubting wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins. Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
Quick Swarmhost tech kills this and all other 2 base Protoss all-ins that we see today.
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On October 20 2012 21:57 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
- Kited to death? Speedlings and roaches with Glial Reconstitution both out run Stalkers with and without blink respectively. Blink cannot be counted in 'kiting' though. - Balance incorporates all parts of the game. In a pure macro late game, I would be interested to see that particular statistic alone. Also, (biased sample size incoming), the super strong immortal sentry all-in 'seems' to be losing traction. That said, perhaps the ST version will catch on more and more people will ride on the success of Parting's PvZ. We'll see more of that in DH and the upcoming MLGs. - The cost of FF is terrain AND spread dependent. The cost of fungal is spread dependent. FF isn't just there for the early game. While it is nice having it against Bling busts, it is actually much more necessary for the mid game. For example, try pure zealot stalker immortal pushes at 10mins. They don't work. Removal of FF is extremely difficult to balance. I suspect that would require an entire ground-up re-work of Protoss and Gateway units AND their production mechanic.
okay so roaches and lings would be able to fight (and even that is not true since blinkstalker would trade way too good without being able to fungal) and the whole rest of the units would be kited and only getting of some hits. you know that hydras even with the speedupgrade are slower than NON-blink-stalker, ultras still suck in zvp and would suck even more if fungal was only a slow and same goes for the slow locusts of SH. so yes, you obviously would need to buff hydras, ultras and SHs if fungal is only a slow AND THATS AN AWESOME SIDEEFFECT of a fungal nerf since more strategies would be viable and its not the retarded slowmoving non-zergy BL infestor spine queen comp all over again.
as for FF: i said its the hardest to balance out but its still a stupid mechanic + the sentry would be given another supporting spell. right now FF is only really needed because of early game busts which is adressed by the MsC. midgame removing of FF can be fixed with another sentry spell, lategame FF arent used anyway.
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The only point i agree on is the fact that it is hard to scout for Toss. Thats the only issue really. If you scout well enought, you can potencially win everything.
In broodwar its always been like this, and there unit counters were not so heavy.
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On October 20 2012 18:55 ROOTT1 wrote:short and sweet post, infested terran eggs should have 0 armor and fungal should slow down units(while still preventing blink). interceptors should regain health once back in the carrier Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 18:46 Scarlett` wrote:On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth (Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings) 2 armor =]
yeah they should def change the armor value to 0.
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This is rather a whine about balance and a guide how to nerf infestor to the ground and buff protoss, then a take on the game. Most of the proposed changes are simply not well thought as well (eg. infested terrans not shooting air. Seriously, you want to force every zerg into fast lair and hydras, so they can die to collosus follow-up?). And yes, I do play protoss atm.
Pretty sad that a thread like this stays open only because it's posted by somebody well known in the scene. Any other person writing this = thread closed in less then 30 minutes.
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I used to be a zerg player and now I'm a terran. Even though this discussion is about ZvP I'm going to say what I think and I might seem a little biased towards zerg since I used to play them. But I agree with some of the points that Sase brought up. Blizzard doesn't seem to read these forums but only the battle.net forums which is weird since most posts on the battle.net forums are just retarded whines.
I don't think that protoss is OP nor UP just a shitty race. It's designed retardedly. The whole warp-in mechanic needs a tweak because it removes defenders advantage which it shouldn't in an RTS game and this might be why PvP is "coinflippy". Also their units are expensive and slow yet toss is forced to do some kind of damage to zerg or they'll just lose. Their units are the most supply efficient though in the late game they lose this trait as zerg goes from mass unit to best units.
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People have a tendency to compare each race to some sort of neutral race without any pros or cons.
All races have overpowered stuff (I mean, warping in at any place on the map? MULEs? Makin 30 roaches at the time?) but when you put them against eachother they just... negate eachother in "OPness".
SaSe has kinda lost my respect with all his whining about zerg. I do understand that some parts of zerg is frustrating (heck, I'm a protoss player myself) but I think that when you're a pro, you should not complain about balance but try to work around it. Let the noobs whine about balance, show us that you can win even though you think the game is unbalanced.
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Seems like Sase was tired and frustrated when writing this topic. A lot of things aren't thought over properly and suggested solutions rather strange. Many things I have never heard anybody complain about and see as problem. Some things mentioned are right, but only the usual stuff. Most of topics on balance and suggestion make more sense... No comment about hots part.
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PvZ is a problem but the list of nerfs is too damn huge for zergs and the one on buffs too big for protoss. We should start with a slow on fungal instead of root to see out it goes, not do 15 nerfs on the infestor.
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On October 20 2012 18:55 ROOTT1 wrote:short and sweet post, infested terran eggs should have 0 armor and fungal should slow down units(while still preventing blink). interceptors should regain health once back in the carrier Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 18:46 Scarlett` wrote:On October 20 2012 15:10 SaSe wrote: I don't feel like it's ok gowser, scarlett and darkforce replies with ashort line of I'm biased and I wanna nerf zerg too much. I said ONE or TWO changes would be ok for infestors, personally I would like to see infested terrans gets targeted in egg form and HIVE upgrade for underground movement. Also creep should get less vision because it's too easy for zerg to spot every drop, every warp prism. It's basically like maphack lategame. Please show me where I said this, I don't like having words put into my mouth (Also making units autotarget infested terran eggs would be a huge buff for Zerg ~ they have 100 hp, 1 armor(I think?), and are not considered light OR armored while in egg form ~ Zerg could just spam in middle of army, and it would make them even more broken vs mech and waste collosus attacks away from lings) 2 armor =]
I like these suggestions a lot more. If they could buff the carrier enough so that mothership can be scrapped it would be great. No idea if the tempest works as intended against broodlord/infestor but it would be nice if it made it impossible to turtle behind spines unless already very ahead.
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Should post this on the "pro" hots official blizzard forum.
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On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent.
aha... ever heard about burrowed micro or picking up cut army by medivacs?
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On October 20 2012 21:37 Decendos wrote: the OP is just superbiased and only has suggestions to buff toss while nerfing zerg without any nerfs to toss and buffs to zerg. PvZ is balanced right now but superstupid gamedesignwise so buffing toss while nerfing zerg would make it incredibly imba. so CHANGE things and dont buff one race and nerf the other.
main problems in PvZ are FFs, fungal and BL/infestor/vortex.
changing fungal to a slow is a SUPERHUGE nerf which needs to be compensated by buffing the speed of basically every zerg unit (to not be kited to death) and making more strats viable for zerg (other than BL infestor) so buffs for hydras, ultras and lategame swarmhosts.
then remove the stupidness called vortex and buff carrier and tempest accordingly so toss is able to fight BL infestor.
the removal of FF is a lot trickier and wont probably be implemented in HOTS. FF is pretty much as stupid as fungal designwise since it prevents micro from the opponent. you could give the sentry another spell instead of FF and protoss will be safe in early game because of mothership core.
Do you know how to read? If yes then maybe you should read SaSe's post before criticising someone with infinitely more knowledge than you.
On October 20 2012 22:53 NeonFox wrote: PvZ is a problem but the list of nerfs is too damn huge for zergs and the one on buffs too big for protoss. We should start with a slow on fungal instead of root to see out it goes, not do 15 nerfs on the infestor. In OP:
"I am not saying all these things are needed. For infestor probably one or two."
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