SaSes 99 cents about the game - Page 27
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chaos021
United States258 Posts
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FataLe
New Zealand4400 Posts
On October 21 2012 14:37 chaos021 wrote: Sase has lost his freaking mind. I love protoss, but the only idea I can honestly live with is fungal growth not locking down units AND doing damage. Other than that, the list of proposed changes is nonsense. This player, who has 'lost his mind' is KR GM level player. That is to say, he has experience at the highest level of Starcraft. I'm not saying SaSe is right or wrong becuase the grass is always greener on the other side but man, to say that his opinion is nonsense is very, very ignorant. We, as the non-pro playing public only get to see a very, very small sample size in what balance really looks like. Think about how many games these Pro's play in practice compared to televized matches. You may have formed your opinion based around televised matches/released replays however these guys play far more games than you will ever watch. Their experiences of how the game functions at the highest level is far greater than ours. Just food for thought. | ||
Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
I do not agree with that Protoss is weak early and midgame, i would say it's the other way around even. (my opinion ofc) The BL/corr/inf comp is awful though i agree, then again remove the infestor and nothing can beat a Protoss mid/late game. Zerg simply needs something to be able to trade somewhat efficient. Your idea's of nerfing zerg would give you a 99% winrate, i doubt even protoss would say that's fun. I respect your opinion and thank you for summoning all your problems up here, but i am afraid you are looking a bit to much through protoss glasses alone. | ||
happyness
United States2400 Posts
On October 21 2012 14:49 FataLe wrote: This player, who has 'lost his mind' is KR GM level player. That is to say, he has experience at the highest level of Starcraft. I'm not saying SaSe is right or wrong becuase the grass is always greener on the other side but man, to say that his opinion is nonsense is very, very ignorant. We, as the non-pro playing public only get to see a very, very small sample size in what balance really looks like. Think about how many games these Pro's play in practice compared to televized matches. You may have formed your opinion based around televised matches/released replays however these guys play far more games than you will ever watch. Their experiences of how the game functions at the highest level is far greater than ours. Just food for thought. Yes. Sase knows way more than any of us, even if his opinion is biased. The guy has to make a living off playing SC2 and how frustrating would it be where lesser skilled players could beat you? I agree that broodlings and infested terran should not get upgrades. They are 0 supply and get a huge boost from upgrades. I also agree that burrow movement should be an upgrade. I would like this from a spectator standpoint because it is so frustrating to watch a zerg go for a big mid-game push with roach infester and there really isn't much toss can do about it, even if they see it coming. I wonder what the game would be like if blizzard had gone through with the fungal nerf to not affect air units. It would probably make zerg anti air too weak, but if they coupled the nerf with a needed buff to hydra, it would make a much better game. | ||
Snake.69
Canada140 Posts
Trust me, i wish we had a good semi mobile army that we can poke with and run if we dont like what we see. I wish we had an army that we can slowly build all game starting from the early game. If your stuck with roach hydra on late game, you lose. Even if you add like 4-5 broodlords. Stuck with muta lings in late game, you lose. Ultralisks? Total trash vs protoss, and overall not that great vs terran, only versus certain kind of armies. Ultralisks beats nothing vs protoss.. As soon as few colossus are in, hydras and zerglings are useless, roaches only good if you are way ahead in supply of protoss. Once its 200/200 vs 200/200, if you dont have infestors /broodlords your in big trouble. Oh and please, dont get me started on forcefields. How bullshit is it that they can forcefield ramp and autowin if they have a warpprism... or the fact that once they have a few sentries, if they are good enough, you can pretty much never attack until mid/late game. OH yea, and the bullshit double speed prism harass where they can make 12 zealots or 8 zealots 4 dts at time in your base, you need like 6436346 spines to defend your tech,. or keep roaches wich are so broken .. 2 supply for that shit unit lol. Send your mobile unit to defend your main, oups 12 zealots at your 4th or 3rd!.. Massing spines is the only way in zvp O_o | ||
Endure
Canada287 Posts
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Doomwish
438 Posts
I don't see how anyone can think PvZ is fine atm. He was making suggestions, not saying blizzard absolutely has to do everything he suggested. People need to actually read a whole post instead of obviously replying after reading the first few lines or paragraphs before their race defense mechanism kicks in. | ||
Vermiiifuuge
Korea (South)112 Posts
On October 21 2012 16:02 Snake.69 wrote: Might as well remove zerg from the game. Hell you know what. Im zerg, and while im no where near pro level, im stil top masters na/ close to grandmasters. And heres my opinion and Q.Q. I agree that the mass spine broodlord infestor thing is OP vs protoss in face to face engagement, but its not like we have any other viable choice. There is absolutely NO good zerg army vs protoss at ALL besides broodlords infestors. And even then without spines n spores it can still be risky. Trust me, i wish we had a good semi mobile army that we can poke with and run if we dont like what we see. I wish we had an army that we can slowly build all game starting from the early game. If your stuck with roach hydra on late game, you lose. Even if you add like 4-5 broodlords. Stuck with muta lings in late game, you lose. Ultralisks? Total trash vs protoss, and overall not that great vs terran, only versus certain kind of armies. Ultralisks beats nothing vs protoss.. As soon as few colossus are in, hydras and zerglings are useless, roaches only good if you are way ahead in supply of protoss. Once its 200/200 vs 200/200, if you dont have infestors /broodlords your in big trouble. Oh and please, dont get me started on forcefields. How bullshit is it that they can forcefield ramp and autowin if they have a warpprism... or the fact that once they have a few sentries, if they are good enough, you can pretty much never attack until mid/late game. OH yea, and the bullshit double speed prism harass where they can make 12 zealots or 8 zealots 4 dts at time in your base, you need like 6436346 spines to defend your tech,. or keep roaches wich are so broken .. 2 supply for that shit unit lol. Send your mobile unit to defend your main, oups 12 zealots at your 4th or 3rd!.. Massing spines is the only way in zvp O_o Nobody is contesting that Spine Spore Infestor Broodlord Corruptor is the only viable way to play ZvP outside of all-ins. Problem is two-fold: Spine Spore Infestor Broodlord Corruptor makes for boring, turtle games & its unbeatable if played right. | ||
achristes
Norway653 Posts
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Alex1Sun
494 Posts
On October 19 2012 11:45 ssg wrote: Protoss crying about protoss. Shocker. Exactly. Sound the same to me. | ||
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Byebona
Sweden12 Posts
On October 21 2012 18:19 mishimaBeef wrote: arguing balance is like politics could not agree more! | ||
zbedlam
Australia549 Posts
I would be more concerned about the racial design issues that cause the matchup to be a broken mess though. Protoss does not need buffs, it already shits on any zerg ground army thats why zerg is forced to mass turrets and basically siege protoss army to death. As for losing to people who are far worse than you, yeah it sucks but starcraft2 is an extremely volatile game, it happens. | ||
4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
However if I understand Sase right the idea is not to make either Protoss or Zerg stronger, therefor is the win rate and so on irrelevant. Sase do not want to buff Protoss, that is not the point of this post, therefor we should not comment on it as it was. What Sase want to achieve is to make PvZ more skilled based in both early and late game. Thus he tires to remove easy skill stuff from both sides without necessarily change the race win rates in either direction. Thus removing stuff like: Mothership, preventing 4 gate/cannon rush timings, neural parasite on mothership, less creep vision and in someways nerf the infestor so it is not such an obvious go to unit for Zerg/and or make it require more skill, like you cannot fungal units that are already fungaled. I do not think Sase believe that his changes will result in a perfect balance, of course you will need to tweak and test it, and this does Sase of course realize to. However I think that these changes that will push the game towards being more skilled required and more equilibrium in the different "time stages" of PvZ. Therefor what we should discuss is how do we make PvZ more skilled based and thus more entertaining to watch, and if Sases suggestions are the right once to achieve this. And if you do not think it is, then how would you do it? In my mind the biggest problem here, and what is almost always the biggest problem with balance in SC2 is that their is a third race. If you make changes on this level will change the other match ups. Thus will I think that Sase changes are good in that they would change PvZ in an interesting direction, am I still worried about what it might do to ZvT for instance. PS: To all you retards saying stuff, "oh wow a protoss whining about protoss". Your posts have no meaning, contributes to nothing and makes my brain want shutdown to defend myself from your stupidity/ignorance. This is a balance thread, here you come with suggestions like: "I think that unit x needs buff because of reason y, however this will change situation z so you might need to think about this other thing as well" OR "I agree with this part but not with this because of x". If you cannot do this you do not belong in this thread. You do NOT talk about, "my penis is longer that yours", "I just lost to P therefor this is bad" or "poster A is playing race x, living in country y and have religion z, therefor I counter all his logic by stating he is not the correct person to comment on this and therefor all his arguments are invalid". <-- If you feel an urge to do this then you can go and log on to a reddit account and spread your ignorance there. | ||
bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
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Cranium
United States48 Posts
Zerg is horrible without Infestor Broodlord. The only redeeming factor about Zerg atm is that if you don't die before the lategame you get a good chance of winning, so everything Zerg tries to do throughout the game is just delay tactics | ||
kyriores
Greece178 Posts
In my opinion, the problem is that zerg is just way too safe early game.. In the past it was common to do some early damage to the zerg's economy so that the lategame became equal. Now that early game is just too safe for the zerg and since they are the race with the more rewarding macro (300 minerals for a building that boosts eco and makes all kinds of units) they will transition into the lategame with an advantage. | ||
jimbob615
Uruguay455 Posts
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Sokrates
738 Posts
a)2rax against zerg. If the zerg just messes up slightly or is too greedy they straight up die. If the zerg defends then the terran isnt so much behind b)If you forcefield the ramp of a zerg you are dead, if i dont see your 4gate pressure comming i m dead. If i go hatch first and you cannonrush me i m dead. Funny that you point out that you die to a 10pool with nexus first but you just do not mention that a cannonrush kills hatch first. 2. How about 2 base allins? It is easy to 2base allin since you just play a build and do not react to the zerg in any way, you do your allin no matter what and the zerg has to deal with it. You do not need any gamesense or scouting you just play a build that you can write down on a piece of paper and then you execute it. Pushes like the immortal sentry push are EXTREMLY hard to defend such pushes as a zerg even if you see them comming an hour ago. Funny that you have to play your hard out against a allin you see a mile ago. 3. You are right about some points but they are extremly biased. Why you do not mention that you can play toss on the highest level with sub par mechanics compared to zerg or terran players? If you want all that stuff done then blizzard also has to chance your race so it needs more "skill" to be played on the highest level. There are so many top level toss players that barely get over 100apm in average. The problem with toss is that you can reach the "skill ceiling" faster than with terran or zerg. 4. You also do not consider that zerg doesnt have the same midgame units than protoss has. Why do you think zerg turtles up with a spinecrawler forest? There is NOTHING that can combat immortal, collossi gateway units before you havent got a sufficient number of broodlords. Roach, hydra corrupter is completely useless, you cannot defend with them and you sure cannot push with them unless you are 100supply ahead. You just point out the strenghs and you do not consider the weaknesses. AS a toss player you build your deathball (unless you herp derp 2 baseallin) from the start to the end of the game. It grows stronger and stronger, whereas as a zergplayer you have nothing until your first broodlords are out. | ||
Bosscelot
United Kingdom52 Posts
On the other hand I feel your reasoning for many things in the OP isn't very good, you don't flesh out your points enough (regardless of if they're 'right' or not). You mention multiple things that don't make sense, but don't explain what you mean by this or how they don't make sense. Is it a design issue? Balance? Lore related? | ||
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